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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Coalition versus CON majority or LAB majority – the latest

SystemSystem Posts: 12,213
edited February 2014 in General

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Coalition versus CON majority or LAB majority – the latest Ashcroft mega poll

@MSmithsonPB @LordAshcroft Interesting that public opinion split into three almost equal chunks: Lab, Con, Coalition

Read the full story here


«13

Comments

  • The Tories need to get Lib Dem 2010 voters to not vote labour , so saying they will not go into coalition with the Lib Dems may mean the lefty lib dem voters stick with the Lib Dems - Good Strategy by the Tories
  • Hmm, I don't think conflating a Con/LD coalition with a Lab/LD coalition makes any sense whatsoever.
  • LennonLennon Posts: 1,782

    Hmm, I don't think conflating a Con/LD coalition with a Lab/LD coalition makes any sense whatsoever.

    Well if the LD's can get all of them to Vote LD then it does.
  • 54% want a Labour led government - more people want any sort of Coalition than a Tory maj.

    What we don't know is how many would prefer a Tory min, which sounds like a walking disaster to me that would last only a few months at most. It would seem unlikely, I'd venture, that this is a preference of the public.

    I agree with Richard N's analysis - or did. Looked for all the world like a junk story.

    But why Cameron has not rebutted it, I do not know.
  • @State - with Clegg in charge that ain't going to happen. He is the Devil Incarnate to the fabled switchers. If you are right we'll see a shift in LD2010 VI. I doubt we will.
  • 54% want a Labour led government - more people want any sort of Coalition than a Tory maj.

    What we don't know is how many would prefer a Tory min, which sounds like a walking disaster to me that would last only a few months at most. It would seem unlikely, I'd venture, that this is a preference of the public.

    I agree with Richard N's analysis - or did. Looked for all the world like a junk story.

    But why Cameron has not rebutted it, I do not know.

    You forgot to add that more people want any sort of coalition than a Lab majority
  • Jonathan said:

    Interesting Article.

    Curious position for the Tories to take. Essentially disses their record 2010-15 by saying coalitions are rubbish.

    This is going to be a great election:
    Con: We were rubbish.
    Lib: We were useless.
    Lab: Come on guys, some of your policies were pretty good - we intend to carry on with most of them...
    :)

    ... and some folk wonder why Scots are disillusioned with Westminster politics.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited February 2014
    What's really interesting to me is that the coalition experience tells us two completely contradictory stories:

    A. It works. For all the carping, the government's record in power and the WAY it has governed has been generally very good. A huge and refreshing improvement on the New Labour years from both the results and the 'smell' perspective. Key reforms have been made, the finances turned around to a significant extent. It's not a shabby record by any objective assesment.

    B. The parties hate it. It seems unsustainable to have a single kingmaker party that keeps getting pulled left then right. If we are again to have good functioning coalitions we need more parties with decent numbers of MPs. UKIP, Green, Nats, Loonies - don't care. But the coalition = LibDems in power meme looks to have passed its sell-by date.

    And from this one can deduce that the USP of the LibDems has been destroyed by their being in power. I always felt they'd survive right up until they actually had to side with one lot or the other in power and then they 'd collapse. FPTP and LibDems aren't compatible. Maybe FPTP and vote shares as we now see them are not compatible. We may be heading for a historically crappy and indefensible GE outcome in 2015.
  • @State - with Clegg in charge that ain't going to happen. He is the Devil Incarnate to the fabled switchers. If you are right we'll see a shift in LD2010 VI. I doubt we will.

    A bit OTT there , some will still vote labour ,some may not - the more the tories distance themselves from the Lib dems the better for the tories as it helps the lib dems to keep its own 2010 voters
  • TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262
    edited February 2014

    Jonathan said:

    Interesting Article.

    Curious position for the Tories to take. Essentially disses their record 2010-15 by saying coalitions are rubbish.

    This is going to be a great election:
    Con: We were rubbish.
    Lib: We were useless.
    Lab: Come on guys, some of your policies were pretty good - we intend to carry on with most of them...
    :)

    ... and some folk wonder why Scots are disillusioned with Westminster politics.
    That should be '*some* Scots'.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,514

    Jonathan said:

    Interesting Article.

    Curious position for the Tories to take. Essentially disses their record 2010-15 by saying coalitions are rubbish.

    This is going to be a great election:
    Con: We were rubbish.
    Lib: We were useless.
    Lab: Come on guys, some of your policies were pretty good - we intend to carry on with most of them...
    :)

    ... and some folk wonder why Scots are disillusioned with Westminster politics.
    chortle

    of course Stuart, because the current status of scottish politics is such a model for us all:

    unionists : you'll all die and Scotland will fall into the sea
    nats : free pixie dust and unicorns for all
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Apologies if already noted but another Labour female MP is to quit. Sian James the member for Swansea East since 2005 says she will stand down at the general election :

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-26334501

  • @State

    So that should show up in polling then. We will see.
  • @State - by one point, yes.
  • Harriet Harman: 'I'm not going to apologise'

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-26335330
  • Jonathan said:

    Interesting Article.

    Curious position for the Tories to take. Essentially disses their record 2010-15 by saying coalitions are rubbish.

    This is going to be a great election:
    Con: We were rubbish.
    Lib: We were useless.
    Lab: Come on guys, some of your policies were pretty good - we intend to carry on with most of them...
    :)

    ... and some folk wonder why Scots are disillusioned with Westminster politics.
    chortle

    of course Stuart, because the current status of scottish politics is such a model for us all:

    unionists : you'll all die and Scotland will fall into the sea
    nats : free pixie dust and unicorns for all
    Hmmm... the Scot nats' offering looks a tad more enticing than the Brit nats' offering!
  • LennonLennon Posts: 1,782
    edited February 2014
    JackW said:

    Apologies if already noted but another Labour female MP is to quit. Sian James the member for Swansea East since 2005 says she will stand down at the general election :
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-26334501

    I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say 'Lab hold' even with a new face. :-)
  • @State - by one point, yes.

    The more I think about it the cleverer it is. Not only do you boost the lib dems at labour's expense you sound like you hate the lib dems and their wishy washyness and get a few UKIP votes back
  • @State - then that will show up in polling. We'll see who is right.
  • @State - then that will show up in polling. We'll see who is right.

    was that reply just to keep one post ahead ? level now
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Lennon said:

    JackW said:

    Apologies if already noted but another Labour female MP is to quit. Sian James the member for Swansea East since 2005 says she will stand down at the general election :
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-26334501

    I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say 'Lab hold' even with a new face. :-)
    I wouldn't call you a rash punter by any stretch .... Labour HOLD Bolsover too ??

  • Jonathan said:

    Interesting Article.

    Curious position for the Tories to take. Essentially disses their record 2010-15 by saying coalitions are rubbish.

    This is going to be a great election:
    Con: We were rubbish.
    Lib: We were useless.
    Lab: Come on guys, some of your policies were pretty good - we intend to carry on with most of them...
    :)

    ... and some folk wonder why Scots are disillusioned with Westminster politics.
    That should be '*some* Scots'.
    It would be a grave error to assume that all No voters are universally satisfied with Westminster politics.

    But as is your wont, feel free to make a grave error.
  • Good afternoon, everyone.

    It'd be interesting to know how useful this sort of poll really is. By that I mean how much weight people give to:
    Party leaders
    Parties
    The local electoral situation

    And how the above vary according to political leanings (namely that lefties are willing and able to cast anti-Tory tactical votes).
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,937
    Hapless Harriet again demonstrating that the Left can never sorry.

    Which is odd, with so much to apologise for.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,514

    Jonathan said:

    Interesting Article.

    Curious position for the Tories to take. Essentially disses their record 2010-15 by saying coalitions are rubbish.

    This is going to be a great election:
    Con: We were rubbish.
    Lib: We were useless.
    Lab: Come on guys, some of your policies were pretty good - we intend to carry on with most of them...
    :)

    ... and some folk wonder why Scots are disillusioned with Westminster politics.
    chortle

    of course Stuart, because the current status of scottish politics is such a model for us all:

    unionists : you'll all die and Scotland will fall into the sea
    nats : free pixie dust and unicorns for all
    Hmmm... the Scot nats' offering looks a tad more enticing than the Brit nats' offering!
    Really ? You've lost your dour calvinism somewhere in the North Sea. ;-)
  • Mr. Mark, to be fair, they do express a degree of regret which can be equated to an apology.
  • Jonathan said:

    Interesting Article.

    Curious position for the Tories to take. Essentially disses their record 2010-15 by saying coalitions are rubbish.

    This is going to be a great election:
    Con: We were rubbish.
    Lib: We were useless.
    Lab: Come on guys, some of your policies were pretty good - we intend to carry on with most of them...
    :)

    ... and some folk wonder why Scots are disillusioned with Westminster politics.
    chortle

    of course Stuart, because the current status of scottish politics is such a model for us all:

    unionists : you'll all die and Scotland will fall into the sea
    nats : free pixie dust and unicorns for all
    Hmmm... the Scot nats' offering looks a tad more enticing than the Brit nats' offering!
    Really ? You've lost your dour calvinism somewhere in the North Sea. ;-)
    I'm full of Nordic joie de vivre.
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 14,466
    edited February 2014
    JackW said:

    Lennon said:

    JackW said:

    Apologies if already noted but another Labour female MP is to quit. Sian James the member for Swansea East since 2005 says she will stand down at the general election :
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-26334501

    I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say 'Lab hold' even with a new face. :-)
    I wouldn't call you a rash punter by any stretch .... Labour HOLD Bolsover too ??

    He reminds me of a Scottish friend of mine, famous for his deep pockets and short arms. He once astounded us all by recklessly going solo on AKQJ10.

  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,046
    "I believe our coalition has been a tremendous success. Born out of necessity the LDs did the honourable thing in choosing to form a government with the party with the largest vote share as they said they would.

    We have achieved some wonderful things. Not everything we have done can be found in either the Conservative or LD manifesto but we have come together and helped to create a better Britain. We have steered the country out of economic danger and are on a far stronger footing than we were in 2010 and than we would have been if Labour had come to power.

    But we the Conservatives still have a vision. We want to extend the recovery, to make it a broad based recovery touching every one of us. We believe that a strong government is essential in these still fragile times and that a Conservative government can deliver that as you can see from our manifesto [pauses to sing Floreat Etona].

    We look forward to a cracking fight come the general election and, following a Conservative victory, five more years of economic competence, stability and recovery."

    Cameron didn't say that either but it doesn't take a great stretch to fashion something plausible that he might say along those lines.
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053

    Hapless Harriet again demonstrating that the Left can never sorry.

    Which is odd, with so much to apologise for.

    The Left will never say sorry for the destruction they wrought on England since 1945. In fact they are proud that they have brought a great country down to their idea of the socialist paradise that they espouse.

    Here are what they are most proud of:
    NHS: The worst medical service in Western Europe.
    Education: Nearly the worst in the civilised world.
    Multi-ethnicity: they've watered down the Anglo Saxon base quite nicely, thank you.


  • ... and some folk wonder why Scots are disillusioned with Westminster politics.

    So it took exactly 7 posts for someone to spam the thread with Scotland trivia.

  • TomsToms Posts: 2,478
    edited February 2014
    It's a pie in the sky.

    Is it possible that there be some kind of resonant communal subconscious that makes us play with politicians, pollsters and other social observers?
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    TOPPING said:

    "I believe our coalition has been a tremendous success. Born out of necessity the LDs did the honourable thing in choosing to form a government with the party with the largest vote share as they said they would.

    We have achieved some wonderful things. Not everything we have done can be found in either the Conservative or LD manifesto but we have come together and helped to create a better Britain. We have steered the country out of economic danger and are on a far stronger footing than we were in 2010 and than we would have been if Labour had come to power.

    But we the Conservatives still have a vision. We want to extend the recovery, to make it a broad based recovery touching every one of us. We believe that a strong government is essential in these still fragile times and that a Conservative government can deliver that as you can see from our manifesto [pauses to sing Floreat Etona].

    We look forward to a cracking fight come the general election and, following a Conservative victory, five more years of economic competence, stability and recovery."

    Cameron didn't say that either but it doesn't take a great stretch to fashion something plausible that he might say along those lines.

    I bet Osbo wont be making a similar speech. In fact I bet Cammo doesn't either.

    No Aid for Wales - Thanks @Conservatives Cartoon from @MailOnline pic.twitter.com/N9cyBGDUKB

    — Nathan Gill (@NathanGillMEP) February 25, 2014
  • Mr. K, ethnicity is not the issue. Excessive levels of immigration leading to enclaves whilst at the same time permitting (and even encouraging) non-integration is the problem.

    We've also seen dangerous backsliding on freedom of speech, whether it's the right to be offensive for comedic purposes (as rightly criticised by Rowan Atkinson) or to mock religion (Jesus and Mo).
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787

    JackW said:

    Lennon said:

    JackW said:

    Apologies if already noted but another Labour female MP is to quit. Sian James the member for Swansea East since 2005 says she will stand down at the general election :
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-26334501

    I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say 'Lab hold' even with a new face. :-)
    I wouldn't call you a rash punter by any stretch .... Labour HOLD Bolsover too ??

    He reminds me of a Scottish friend of mine, famous for his deep pockets and short arms. He once astounded us all by recklessly going solo on AKQJ10.

    A base stereotype .....

    Counts silver threepences fertively

  • TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262
    Interesting use of NCCL briefing notes. I wonder how many more documents the DM are sitting upon?

    Tom Watson must rue the day he started digging about. Or not.

    This will run and run and run...

  • Wonderful!

    Daily Mail v Harriet Harman. One of those contests where you hope both sides will lose.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,564

    Hmm, I don't think conflating a Con/LD coalition with a Lab/LD coalition makes any sense whatsoever.

    Agreed - I'd assume that most who want a Con/LD coalition see Con as better than Lab/LD and vice versa. Also, adding together two options and concluding anything from the total being larger than other single options is a variant on the naughty "cooption of the middle" way of interpreting polls with three possible answers.

  • JackW said:

    JackW said:

    Lennon said:

    JackW said:

    Apologies if already noted but another Labour female MP is to quit. Sian James the member for Swansea East since 2005 says she will stand down at the general election :
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-26334501

    I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say 'Lab hold' even with a new face. :-)
    I wouldn't call you a rash punter by any stretch .... Labour HOLD Bolsover too ??

    He reminds me of a Scottish friend of mine, famous for his deep pockets and short arms. He once astounded us all by recklessly going solo on AKQJ10.

    A base stereotype .....

    Counts silver threepences fertively

    My apologies, Jack.

    May I send you a fiver, in recompense? A white one.



  • ... and some folk wonder why Scots are disillusioned with Westminster politics.

    So it took exactly 7 posts for someone to spam the thread with Scotland trivia.

    Hardly trivial if one of the two founder partners of the United Kingdom is disillusioned with Westminster politics. That fact is actually quite fundamental for understanding what is about to happen in September.
  • TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262
    edited February 2014



    ... and some folk wonder why Scots are disillusioned with Westminster politics.

    So it took exactly 7 posts for someone to spam the thread with Scotland trivia.

    Hardly trivial if one of the two founder partners of the United Kingdom is disillusioned with Westminster politics. That fact is actually quite fundamental for understanding what is about to happen in September.
    If I wanted to read all things Alba 24/7, I'd plug myself into 'Jings over Scotchland'.

    Any chance that we can have a break from it over here?

  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    @MikeK wrote :

    "Multi-ethnicity: they've watered down the Anglo Saxon base quite nicely, thank you."

    I hadn't appreciated England had a Labour government when there were waves of immigration from the :

    Romans .. Vikings .. Normans .. Jews .. Huguenots .. Scots .. Welsh .. Irish ..

    And what of the original Brits having their "base watered down" by the Germans of Angle and Saxon origin ?

    As Captain Mainwaring was wont to say :

    "You stupid boy !!"





  • Have you lot gone mad in the spring sunshine?
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787

    JackW said:

    JackW said:

    Lennon said:

    JackW said:

    Apologies if already noted but another Labour female MP is to quit. Sian James the member for Swansea East since 2005 says she will stand down at the general election :
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-26334501

    I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say 'Lab hold' even with a new face. :-)
    I wouldn't call you a rash punter by any stretch .... Labour HOLD Bolsover too ??

    He reminds me of a Scottish friend of mine, famous for his deep pockets and short arms. He once astounded us all by recklessly going solo on AKQJ10.

    A base stereotype .....

    Counts silver threepences fertively

    My apologies, Jack.

    May I send you a fiver, in recompense? A white one.

    Aye .... hoots man you can .... A white fiver is worth more than five pounds as Mark Senior will tell you !!

  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621


    Wonderful!

    Daily Mail v Harriet Harman. One of those contests where you hope both sides will lose.
    The best thing about that image is the caption.

    They've cheekily pointed out that Harriet is on the left, and Savile on the right. Just in case you weren't sure.
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    ''Daily Mail v Harriet Harman. One of those contests where you hope both sides will lose.''

    I'm sure Harman criticised the goverment's child protection policies on a recent question time actually. Opined that measures to stop scurrilous pupil accusations against teachers made kids a bit less safe.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Harmans hypocrisy is long established, see Grammar school education for her children / the rest of society..

    This looks terrible for her.. possible checkmate when you consider how she dismisses the shifting moral zeitgeist for others
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,624
    JackW said:

    @MikeK wrote :

    "Multi-ethnicity: they've watered down the Anglo Saxon base quite nicely, thank you."

    I hadn't appreciated England had a Labour government when there were waves of immigration from the :

    Romans .. Vikings .. Normans .. Jews .. Huguenots .. Scots .. Welsh .. Irish ..

    And what of the original Brits having their "base watered down" by the Germans of Angle and Saxon origin ?

    As Captain Mainwaring was wont to say :

    "You stupid boy !!"

    You must not water down the superior Anglo Saxon DNA and make mongrels of us.

    That way lies racial micon... thingymejig...
  • Mr. 1000, nothing wrong with a Viking-Saxon cross-breed.

    [As an aside, mongrels are very often healthier than pedigrees due to a lack of in-bred conditions].
  • JackW said:

    JackW said:

    JackW said:

    Lennon said:

    JackW said:

    Apologies if already noted but another Labour female MP is to quit. Sian James the member for Swansea East since 2005 says she will stand down at the general election :
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-26334501

    I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say 'Lab hold' even with a new face. :-)
    I wouldn't call you a rash punter by any stretch .... Labour HOLD Bolsover too ??

    He reminds me of a Scottish friend of mine, famous for his deep pockets and short arms. He once astounded us all by recklessly going solo on AKQJ10.

    A base stereotype .....

    Counts silver threepences fertively

    My apologies, Jack.

    May I send you a fiver, in recompense? A white one.

    Aye .... hoots man you can .... A white fiver is worth more than five pounds as Mark Senior will tell you !!

    JackW said:

    JackW said:

    JackW said:

    Lennon said:

    JackW said:

    Apologies if already noted but another Labour female MP is to quit. Sian James the member for Swansea East since 2005 says she will stand down at the general election :
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-26334501

    I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say 'Lab hold' even with a new face. :-)
    I wouldn't call you a rash punter by any stretch .... Labour HOLD Bolsover too ??

    He reminds me of a Scottish friend of mine, famous for his deep pockets and short arms. He once astounded us all by recklessly going solo on AKQJ10.

    A base stereotype .....

    Counts silver threepences fertively

    My apologies, Jack.

    May I send you a fiver, in recompense? A white one.

    Aye .... hoots man you can .... A white fiver is worth more than five pounds as Mark Senior will tell you !!

    I'll send it just as soon as Independence is declared. Now what's the address.....Auchterleekie Castle?

  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,337
    JackW said:

    @MikeK wrote :

    "Multi-ethnicity: they've watered down the Anglo Saxon base quite nicely, thank you."

    I hadn't appreciated England had a Labour government when there were waves of immigration from the :

    Romans .. Vikings .. Normans .. Jews .. Huguenots .. Scots .. Welsh .. Irish ..

    And what of the original Brits having their "base watered down" by the Germans of Angle and Saxon origin ?

    As Captain Mainwaring was wont to say :

    "You stupid boy !!"

    Never mind what Boxgrove Man would say about all those new-fangled incomers with their poncy foreign microliths ...
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,014
    I can't help feeling that Cameron has been pushed into this by the nutter tendency on his back benchers who feel aggrieved that the limos are being shared with another party. For the most part I get the impression that Cameron is more comfortable with Clegg than, say, IDS. (And who wouldn't be?)

    This is such a silly story because everything turns on the numbers. If the tories edged up to, say, 320, then a minority administration would be possible if not desirable. If they go under 300 but remain the largest party a coalition is inevitable.

    In the meantime criticising or undermining a very successful coalition for the sake of some bizarre differentiation policy makes very little sense to me. It borders on the presumptuous frankly and the idea that this is going to make labour supporting voters vote Lib Dem anywhere but in Con/Lib Dem marginals is just stupid.

    Cameron needs to make clear that he will do what is in the national interest. It is his most important USP. If the great British public in their collective wisdom make another coalition inevitable he needs to work with that and do the best he can as in 2010. Anything else is self indulgent.
  • TOPPING said:

    ...We have achieved some wonderful things. Not everything we have done can be found in either the Conservative or LD manifesto...

    There are some notable things that haven't been done that were in both the Lib Dem and Conservative manifesto's, if I remember rightly.

    The two that most clearly come to mind are:

    1. The failure to introduce a recall mechanism for MPs, so that individuals such as Mr Joyce could be more speedily removed from the Commons by their electors.

    2. The failure to follow through on promises to protect civil liberties (though ID cards were scrapped we never did have the Great Repeal Bill). Does David Davis look at Theresa May at the Home Office and ever feel any regrets I wonder?

    Oh, and I think they both promised to cut the deficit faster than under Darling's plan, but progress on that has been patchy...
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    edited February 2014
    I'd love to be a fly on the wall at the Daily Mail. They must be having the time of their lives at the moment.

    They must have had that article on the Harman-authored legal paper ready to go for a while, hoping and praying that she'd break cover.

    [note: despite my barely-contained glee at this episode, I'd like to point out that the DM is still a rather nasty publication]
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    rcs1000 said:

    JackW said:

    @MikeK wrote :

    "Multi-ethnicity: they've watered down the Anglo Saxon base quite nicely, thank you."

    I hadn't appreciated England had a Labour government when there were waves of immigration from the :

    Romans .. Vikings .. Normans .. Jews .. Huguenots .. Scots .. Welsh .. Irish ..

    And what of the original Brits having their "base watered down" by the Germans of Angle and Saxon origin ?

    As Captain Mainwaring was wont to say :

    "You stupid boy !!"

    You must not water down the superior Anglo Saxon DNA and make mongrels of us.

    That way lies racial micon... thingymejig...
    It also always make me smile when commentators talk of "multiculturalism" as if it was born of the 1960/70 when in fact it's been part of world and especially English history since the dawn of Christianity and much earlier in some cases.

  • Mr. W, true, but the idea you could go to Rome and not do as the Romans do (and Romans who objected are dubbed racist) is entirely new.

    Such has contributed to recent well-known travesties of justice, where victims went to the police but were ignored. On a less horrific scale, it's also led to a media cowed and fearful to publish material considered blasphemous by some, whilst politicians lack the backbone or the brain to stand up for freedom of speech.
  • Anorak said:

    They must have had that article on the Harman-authored legal paper ready to go for a while, hoping and praying that she'd break cover.

    It's pretty thin stuff, though.

    Incidentally, wasn't there an awful fuss about Leveson and a Royal Charter a few months ago? Seems to have gone rather quiet.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Carnyx said:

    JackW said:

    @MikeK wrote :

    "Multi-ethnicity: they've watered down the Anglo Saxon base quite nicely, thank you."

    I hadn't appreciated England had a Labour government when there were waves of immigration from the :

    Romans .. Vikings .. Normans .. Jews .. Huguenots .. Scots .. Welsh .. Irish ..

    And what of the original Brits having their "base watered down" by the Germans of Angle and Saxon origin ?

    As Captain Mainwaring was wont to say :

    "You stupid boy !!"

    Never mind what Boxgrove Man would say about all those new-fangled incomers with their poncy foreign microliths ...
    Well quite ....

    And what have the Romans ever done for us ....

    Cue Monty Python music ....

  • MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699
    Anorak said:

    I'd love to be a fly on the wall at the Daily Mail. They must be having the time of their lives at the moment.

    They must have had that article on the Harman-authored legal paper ready to go for a while, hoping and praying that she'd break cover.

    [note: despite my barely-contained glee at this episode, I'd like to point out that the DM is still a rather nasty publication]

    Has Dacre come out of hiding since his smear attempts on EdM's father .
  • @RCS
    @JackW

    Ha! This is the LastBoyScout's definition of spring madness
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    edited February 2014

    TOPPING said:

    ...We have achieved some wonderful things. Not everything we have done can be found in either the Conservative or LD manifesto...

    There are some notable things that haven't been done that were in both the Lib Dem and Conservative manifesto's, if I remember rightly.

    The two that most clearly come to mind are:

    1. The failure to introduce a recall mechanism for MPs, so that individuals such as Mr Joyce could be more speedily removed from the Commons by their electors.

    2. The failure to follow through on promises to protect civil liberties (though ID cards were scrapped we never did have the Great Repeal Bill). Does David Davis look at Theresa May at the Home Office and ever feel any regrets I wonder?

    Oh, and I think they both promised to cut the deficit faster than under Darling's plan, but progress on that has been patchy...
    An elected House of Lords would be another one, although the Tory manifesto is a bit vague ("work to build a consensus").
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621

    Anorak said:

    They must have had that article on the Harman-authored legal paper ready to go for a while, hoping and praying that she'd break cover.

    It's pretty thin stuff, though.

    Incidentally, wasn't there an awful fuss about Leveson and a Royal Charter a few months ago? Seems to have gone rather quiet.
    Yes it's thin. Whatever :)

    Good point on Leveson. A little strange that this episode hasn't stirred the authoritarian left to demand a hastening of matters.
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    edited February 2014

    Anorak said:

    I'd love to be a fly on the wall at the Daily Mail. They must be having the time of their lives at the moment.

    They must have had that article on the Harman-authored legal paper ready to go for a while, hoping and praying that she'd break cover.

    [note: despite my barely-contained glee at this episode, I'd like to point out that the DM is still a rather nasty publication]

    Has Dacre come out of hiding since his smear attempts on EdM's father .
    Dunno. I bet he's smiling today though, wherever he is.

    It was reported on the news last night, from "a Labour source", that Harriet wasn't resorting to litigation against the Mail as she preferred things to be settled in the 'court of public opinion'. Given how ridiculous and contemptible that phrase was a few years ago I was surprised it was given another outing. Unless the source was being rather waggish.
  • not_on_firenot_on_fire Posts: 4,449
    Hah! Harriet Harman has tweeted a screenshot of a Mail Online article showing three 12 year old girls in bikinis.
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322

    Mr. W, true, but the idea you could go to Rome and not do as the Romans do (and Romans who objected are dubbed racist) is entirely new.

    Such has contributed to recent well-known travesties of justice, where victims went to the police but were ignored. On a less horrific scale, it's also led to a media cowed and fearful to publish material considered blasphemous by some, whilst politicians lack the backbone or the brain to stand up for freedom of speech.

    Hear, hear.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,300
    I'm sure that Ed Balls is having a happy birthday today.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787

    Mr. W, true, but the idea you could go to Rome and not do as the Romans do (and Romans who objected are dubbed racist) is entirely new.

    Such has contributed to recent well-known travesties of justice, where victims went to the police but were ignored. On a less horrific scale, it's also led to a media cowed and fearful to publish material considered blasphemous by some, whilst politicians lack the backbone or the brain to stand up for freedom of speech.

    No my little fetish dancer that is a load of old wiffle sticks.

    Victims were ignored by the police and politicians because of the latters stupidity and deference to political correctness. We shouldn't conflate multiculturalism and political correctness.

  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    edited February 2014
    Carnyx said:

    JackW said:

    @MikeK wrote :

    "Multi-ethnicity: they've watered down the Anglo Saxon base quite nicely, thank you."

    I hadn't appreciated England had a Labour government when there were waves of immigration from the :

    Romans .. Vikings .. Normans .. Jews .. Huguenots .. Scots .. Welsh .. Irish ..

    And what of the original Brits having their "base watered down" by the Germans of Angle and Saxon origin ?

    As Captain Mainwaring was wont to say :

    "You stupid boy !!"

    Never mind what Boxgrove Man would say about all those new-fangled incomers with their poncy foreign microliths ...
    You forgot the Jutes; and Normans, Hugenots, and Jews were never more than small communities: The Normans never numbered more than 5,000 souls and interbred with the local population. The Hugenots were also a very small group. The Jews never numbered more than 450K at maximum population. They now number less than 200K thanks to assimilation.

    Also I was talking about England not the British Isles. The Vikings will vote UKIP and the Romans all went home. ;)
  • F1: decided to lay my Rosberg bet at 8 (Betfair). I'm flat for everyone else and green if he wins the title.
  • Mr. W, the two are not unrelated. The Autumn Looting of a few years ago got so out of control because top brass rozzers were afraid, reportedly, it'd look racist if they cracked down (because the origins, far distant from the ultimate result, related to Mark Duggan's death).

    There was a clear and blatant cultural aspect to the crimes, and to the attempts (sadly, largely successful) to reduce freedom of speech if they hurt the feelings of the over-sensitive and commit the pretend crime of blasphemy.
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053

    Hah! Harriet Harman has tweeted a screenshot of a Mail Online article showing three 12 year old girls in bikinis.

    All the Mail has to do is find an old photo of Harman as a teenager in a bikini. I'm sure there's one knocking about somewhere if Dacre is willing to pay enough.

  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,534

    Hah! Harriet Harman has tweeted a screenshot of a Mail Online article showing three 12 year old girls in bikinis.

    Much like Owen Jones' rather desperate attempt to accuse the Mail of hypocrisy, because they display pictures of *adult* models in scanty clothes.
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    MikeK said:

    Hah! Harriet Harman has tweeted a screenshot of a Mail Online article showing three 12 year old girls in bikinis.

    All the Mail has to do is find an old photo of Harman as a teenager in a bikini. I'm sure there's one knocking about somewhere if Dacre is willing to pay enough.

    And how would that help?
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    JackW said:

    @MikeK wrote :

    "Multi-ethnicity: they've watered down the Anglo Saxon base quite nicely, thank you."

    I hadn't appreciated England had a Labour government when there were waves of immigration from the :

    Romans .. Vikings .. Normans .. Jews .. Huguenots .. Scots .. Welsh .. Irish ..

    And what of the original Brits having their "base watered down" by the Germans of Angle and Saxon origin ?

    As Captain Mainwaring was wont to say :

    "You stupid boy !!"

    While it is wrong to say there's a problem with introducing non-Anglo-Saxon stock, the argument "but we've had previous waves of immigrants" is a terrible one. The reality is that the genetics of the population of the British Isles pre-1948 has been virtually constant going back 10,000 years. There's significant debate among biologists about whether the German invasions can even be detected in the stock, which happened over centuries and centuries. The idea that the Normans had any real impact on our DNA, let alone a few hundred thousand Jews or Huguenots, is ridiculous. The post-1948 migrations, where by one in eight people in the UK has a different genetic history, is clearly completely unprecedented.

    Now, as I have said, arguing that introducing new genetic mixtures that evolved elsewhere is wrong is an incorrect and ugly view. But the pro-immigration camp don't help themselves when they misrepresent the facts.
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    Sean_F said:

    Hah! Harriet Harman has tweeted a screenshot of a Mail Online article showing three 12 year old girls in bikinis.

    Much like Owen Jones' rather desperate attempt to accuse the Mail of hypocrisy, because they display pictures of *adult* models in scanty clothes.
    Owen Jones is particularly thick, even by the standards of right-on lefties, isn't he?
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322

    Hah! Harriet Harman has tweeted a screenshot of a Mail Online article showing three 12 year old girls in bikinis.

    It's ridiculous, isn't it? Is Harman now trying to say the idea that twelve year olds in swimming costumes is inherently sexual? Bizarre.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787

    Mr. W, the two are not unrelated. The Autumn Looting of a few years ago got so out of control because top brass rozzers were afraid, reportedly, it'd look racist if they cracked down (because the origins, far distant from the ultimate result, related to Mark Duggan's death).

    There was a clear and blatant cultural aspect to the crimes, and to the attempts (sadly, largely successful) to reduce freedom of speech if they hurt the feelings of the over-sensitive and commit the pretend crime of blasphemy.

    I fundamentally disagree.

    The police initially lost control of the riots because the were numerically over-whelmed and only regained control when shift patterns and outside forces increased numbers on the ground.

    Criminality isn't a causal cultural issue. A culture doesn't opt for crime. Crime is simply borne of deviance from accepted norms of society and that effects all cultures.

    You note the Duggan case. Perhaps you might reflect that the Met weren't exactly slow to act there an in the end were prepared to use lethal force.

  • MrJonesMrJones Posts: 3,523

    Hah! Harriet Harman has tweeted a screenshot of a Mail Online article showing three 12 year old girls in bikinis.

    I thought that NCCL legal briefing the Mail published says there's nothing wrong with that? Is she saying that position was wrong?
  • MrJonesMrJones Posts: 3,523
    JackW said:

    Mr. W, the two are not unrelated. The Autumn Looting of a few years ago got so out of control because top brass rozzers were afraid, reportedly, it'd look racist if they cracked down (because the origins, far distant from the ultimate result, related to Mark Duggan's death).

    There was a clear and blatant cultural aspect to the crimes, and to the attempts (sadly, largely successful) to reduce freedom of speech if they hurt the feelings of the over-sensitive and commit the pretend crime of blasphemy.

    I fundamentally disagree.

    The police initially lost control of the riots because the were numerically over-whelmed and only regained control when shift patterns and outside forces increased numbers on the ground.

    Criminality isn't a causal cultural issue. A culture doesn't opt for crime. Crime is simply borne of deviance from accepted norms of society and that effects all cultures.

    You note the Duggan case. Perhaps you might reflect that the Met weren't exactly slow to act there an in the end were prepared to use lethal force.

    There are specific criminal sub-cultures e.g. football hooligans.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,534
    Socrates said:

    Sean_F said:

    Hah! Harriet Harman has tweeted a screenshot of a Mail Online article showing three 12 year old girls in bikinis.

    Much like Owen Jones' rather desperate attempt to accuse the Mail of hypocrisy, because they display pictures of *adult* models in scanty clothes.
    Owen Jones is particularly thick, even by the standards of right-on lefties, isn't he?
    It's similar to Janice Turner advocating banning payment for sex by citing "comfort women" in WWII. Comfort Women were kidnapped by the Japanese Army and compelled to act as prostitutes. That's a world away from consensual prostitution, and it's utterly dishonest to mix up the two.

  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    JackW said:

    Criminality isn't a causal cultural issue. A culture doesn't opt for crime. Crime is simply borne of deviance from accepted norms of society and that effects all cultures.

    This is a ridiculous statement. Are you really saying that, given the same opportunity to profit from crime, Danes and Nigerians would do it at the same rate? While cultures do change, for better or for worse, over time, the tendency to criminality is hugely linked to social norms, and social norms are an inherent part of a culture.
  • Socrates said:

    Hah! Harriet Harman has tweeted a screenshot of a Mail Online article showing three 12 year old girls in bikinis.

    It's ridiculous, isn't it? Is Harman now trying to say the idea that twelve year olds in swimming costumes is inherently sexual? Bizarre.
    Her line of attack sits awkwardly with the argument that she put forward in her own NCCL paper that children in states of undress aren't inherently sexual images.
  • Socrates said:

    Hah! Harriet Harman has tweeted a screenshot of a Mail Online article showing three 12 year old girls in bikinis.

    It's ridiculous, isn't it? Is Harman now trying to say the idea that twelve year olds in swimming costumes is inherently sexual? Bizarre.
    I remember the furore over that article previously - it was claimed that the way in which the Mail wrote about the twelve year olds was sexualising them. That is presumably the point that Harman is making.
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    edited February 2014
    Whatever one thinks of Toby Young, there's an interesting piece by him about Labour's handling of NCCL-gate on the telly site now.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,046
    edited February 2014

    Mr. W, the two are not unrelated. The Autumn Looting of a few years ago got so out of control because top brass rozzers were afraid, reportedly, it'd look racist if they cracked down (because the origins, far distant from the ultimate result, related to Mark Duggan's death).

    There was a clear and blatant cultural aspect to the crimes, and to the attempts (sadly, largely successful) to reduce freedom of speech if they hurt the feelings of the over-sensitive and commit the pretend crime of blasphemy.

    No.

    The riots then looting occurred because there was accumulated resentment at treatment by the police which took expression following the Duggan family visit to Tottenham police station. It continued because the rioters realised they could. Rioting then turned to looting. Study after study has shown that while unambiguously criminal, the riots and looting also represented a backlash against that police behaviour and was as much as anything about power.

    To include a cultural dimension would be to examine which section of the population felt most aggrieved by the perceived heavy-handedness of the police. And why.
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    antifrank said:

    Socrates said:

    Hah! Harriet Harman has tweeted a screenshot of a Mail Online article showing three 12 year old girls in bikinis.

    It's ridiculous, isn't it? Is Harman now trying to say the idea that twelve year olds in swimming costumes is inherently sexual? Bizarre.
    Her line of attack sits awkwardly with the argument that she put forward in her own NCCL paper that children in states of undress aren't inherently sexual images.
    The logical result of Harman's argument is that parents all around the country are perverts with incestuous tendencies because they have photos of their kids swimming in the pool. It's a desperate straw-grasping argument because she can't defend herself from the fact that she worked at a senior level in an organisation that had a formal affiliation with a pro-paedophilia group.
  • MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699
    MrJones said:

    Hah! Harriet Harman has tweeted a screenshot of a Mail Online article showing three 12 year old girls in bikinis.

    I thought that NCCL legal briefing the Mail published says there's nothing wrong with that? Is she saying that position was wrong?
    I guess it depends if they were being groomed by asian gangs .
  • Life_ina_market_townLife_ina_market_town Posts: 2,319
    edited February 2014
    antifrank said:

    Her line of attack sits awkwardly with the argument that she put forward in her own NCCL paper that children in states of undress aren't inherently sexual images.

    Indeed. That isn't merely her position of 1978. It is also the law of the land. The Court of Appeal (Rose LJ(VP), Gibbs & Davis JJ) made clear in R v Oliver [2003] 1 Cr App R 28 at p. 467 that 'neither nakedness in a legitimate setting, nor the surreptitious procuring of an image, gives rise, of itself, to a pornographic image' for the purposes of the Protection of Children Act 1978. The case law on "indecency" has moved on since the 1970s.
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    TOPPING said:

    Mr. W, the two are not unrelated. The Autumn Looting of a few years ago got so out of control because top brass rozzers were afraid, reportedly, it'd look racist if they cracked down (because the origins, far distant from the ultimate result, related to Mark Duggan's death).

    There was a clear and blatant cultural aspect to the crimes, and to the attempts (sadly, largely successful) to reduce freedom of speech if they hurt the feelings of the over-sensitive and commit the pretend crime of blasphemy.

    No.

    The riots then looting occurred because there was accumulated resentment at treatment by the police which took expression following the Duggan family visit to Tottenham police station. It continued because the rioters realised they could. Rioting then turned to looting. Study after study has shown that while unambiguously criminal, the riots and looting also represented a backlash against that police behaviour and was as much as anything about power.

    To include a cultural dimension would be to examine which section of the population felt most aggrieved by the perceived heavy-handedness of the police. And why.
    If you watch the interviews with the rioters and looters, you'd find they were just immoral idiots who blame everyone else for their predicament. If they had some sort of logic to opposing the police, they would have attacked police stations, not random shops to steal things.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,534
    TOPPING said:

    Mr. W, the two are not unrelated. The Autumn Looting of a few years ago got so out of control because top brass rozzers were afraid, reportedly, it'd look racist if they cracked down (because the origins, far distant from the ultimate result, related to Mark Duggan's death).

    There was a clear and blatant cultural aspect to the crimes, and to the attempts (sadly, largely successful) to reduce freedom of speech if they hurt the feelings of the over-sensitive and commit the pretend crime of blasphemy.

    No.

    The riots then looting occurred because there was accumulated resentment at treatment by the police which took expression following the Duggan family visit to Tottenham police station. It continued because the rioters realised they could. Rioting then turned to looting. Study after study has shown that while unambiguously criminal, the riots and looting also represented a backlash against that police behaviour and was as much as anything about power.

    To include a cultural dimension would be to examine which section of the population felt most aggrieved by the perceived heavy-handedness of the police. And why.
    Basically, a bunch of "youfs" objected to the lack of "respect" they received from authority.

  • Sky News reporting that some NCCL files connected to the PIE years were removed from archiving last year, and haven't resurfaced.......
  • It is confirmed. This thread has been infiltrated by spring madness.
  • JackW said:

    JackW said:

    JackW said:

    Lennon said:

    JackW said:

    Apologies if already noted but another Labour female MP is to quit. Sian James the member for Swansea East since 2005 says she will stand down at the general election :
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-26334501

    I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say 'Lab hold' even with a new face. :-)
    I wouldn't call you a rash punter by any stretch .... Labour HOLD Bolsover too ??

    He reminds me of a Scottish friend of mine, famous for his deep pockets and short arms. He once astounded us all by recklessly going solo on AKQJ10.

    A base stereotype .....

    Counts silver threepences fertively

    My apologies, Jack.

    May I send you a fiver, in recompense? A white one.

    Aye .... hoots man you can .... A white fiver is worth more than five pounds as Mark Senior will tell you !!

    JackW said:

    JackW said:

    JackW said:

    Lennon said:

    JackW said:

    Apologies if already noted but another Labour female MP is to quit. Sian James the member for Swansea East since 2005 says she will stand down at the general election :
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-26334501

    I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say 'Lab hold' even with a new face. :-)
    I wouldn't call you a rash punter by any stretch .... Labour HOLD Bolsover too ??

    He reminds me of a Scottish friend of mine, famous for his deep pockets and short arms. He once astounded us all by recklessly going solo on AKQJ10.

    A base stereotype .....

    Counts silver threepences fertively

    My apologies, Jack.

    May I send you a fiver, in recompense? A white one.

    Aye .... hoots man you can .... A white fiver is worth more than five pounds as Mark Senior will tell you !!

    I'll send it just as soon as Independence is declared. Now what's the address.....Auchterleekie Castle?

    Auchentennach!
  • TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262
    edited February 2014
    O/T 'RSPCA chief executive leaves post'

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/earthnews/10660286/RSPCA-chief-executive-leaves-post.html

    If Nick Palmer's around, I'm still waiting patiently for his figures that show a majority are against badger culling.
  • not_on_firenot_on_fire Posts: 4,449
    edited February 2014
    Socrates said:

    antifrank said:

    Socrates said:

    Hah! Harriet Harman has tweeted a screenshot of a Mail Online article showing three 12 year old girls in bikinis.

    It's ridiculous, isn't it? Is Harman now trying to say the idea that twelve year olds in swimming costumes is inherently sexual? Bizarre.
    Her line of attack sits awkwardly with the argument that she put forward in her own NCCL paper that children in states of undress aren't inherently sexual images.
    The logical result of Harman's argument is that parents all around the country are perverts with incestuous tendencies because they have photos of their kids swimming in the pool. It's a desperate straw-grasping argument because she can't defend herself from the fact that she worked at a senior level in an organisation that had a formal affiliation with a pro-paedophilia group.
    That's not her argument at all. The DM has attacked her for trying to "water down" child protection laws (with the obvious subtext that it would help paedophiles) when in fact she was pointing out that examples such as the ones you've pointed out should be excluded form being considered sexual.

  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322

    It is confirmed. This thread has been infiltrated by spring madness.

    Because people are making points that are outside the left's view of allowable opinions?
  • Sean_F said:

    Basically, a bunch of "youfs" objected to the lack of "respect" they received from authority.

    As Gerald R. Ford once said:
    How long are we going to abdicate law and order, the backbone of civilization, in favour of a soft social theory that the man who heaves a brick through your window or tosses a fire bomb into your car is simply the misunderstood and underprivileged product of a broken home? [Quoted in Weisbrot, Freedom Bound, (NY, 1990), p. 220]
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    edited February 2014
    Socrates said:

    JackW said:

    Criminality isn't a causal cultural issue. A culture doesn't opt for crime. Crime is simply borne of deviance from accepted norms of society and that effects all cultures.

    This is a ridiculous statement. Are you really saying that, given the same opportunity to profit from crime, Danes and Nigerians would do it at the same rate? While cultures do change, for better or for worse, over time, the tendency to criminality is hugely linked to social norms, and social norms are an inherent part of a culture.
    No culture accepts a deviance from its social norm in the form of criminality. Clearly the rate may vary for a host of sociological reasons but the concept that by nature one culture is more prone to a substantial variance in criminality is one I reject.

    ........................................

    And now if you'll forgive me I away to uplift Mrs JackW from her most recent trip otherwise she's likely to inflict a cultural form of criminality in the "W" household known as a bloody good ear bashing !!

    Laters ....

This discussion has been closed.