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How many CON Mps will join these 52 before the election? – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,214
edited January 8 in General
imageHow many CON Mps will join these 52 before the election? – politicalbetting.com

Hardly a week goes by at the moment without news of more CON MPs announcing that they don’t plan to defend their seats at the general election.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • ClippPClippP Posts: 1,920
    They talk about the advantage of incumbency, but I wonder if this is a myth,

    I suspect it could be true when the MP is new, full of enthusiasm and happy to talk about the government's achievements.

    But in the present Parliament, there are no positive Government achievements to be wheeled out to the grateful populace, so everything must be highly depressing for the Tory MPs, be they first time incumbents or old stagers.

    No wonder they are all packing up. After all, they were the ones who made it all happen in the first place.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,590
    ClippP said:

    They talk about the advantage of incumbency, but I wonder if this is a myth,

    I suspect it could be true when the MP is new, full of enthusiasm and happy to talk about the government's achievements.

    But in the present Parliament, there are no positive Government achievements to be wheeled out to the grateful populace, so everything must be highly depressing for the Tory MPs, be they first time incumbents or old stagers.

    No wonder they are all packing up. After all, they were the ones who made it all happen in the first place.

    I suspect incumbency gives you a 2-5% bounce which means in a tight fought election a few MPs who may otherwise have lost stay because they did a decent job in the last few years (and probably helped someone the vote knows out in same way or other).

    It probably doesn't help much if 25% of voters change their vote and are now voting for the opposition party.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,937
    Sad to see Edward Timpson going.

    Otherwise....
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,890

    Sad to see Edward Timpson going.

    Otherwise....

    Sharma and Wallace are a loss.

    No, no not Jamie. Good riddance to him/her.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,937

    Sad to see Edward Timpson going.

    Otherwise....

    Sharma and Wallace are a loss.

    No, no not Jamie. Good riddance to him/her.
    I warned Sharma that he would get shafted on the green stuff.

    And now he departs the stage, bitter that he did not make the mark he could have.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    edited January 6
    Cri de coeur from SeaShantyIrish2 - Notice - Yours truly notes absence of my own humble nom de PB from the posted list of predictors, despite the fact I have submitted my entry.

    WHY??????????

    AND does this mean that this "election" has been rigged, by some conspiracy of the PB Powers That Be?

    J'accuse!!!!!!!!

    To underline the absurdity of this rank injustice, based on unreliable reports received via my custom-built tin-foil helmet, can reveal that 99.46% of my prognostications are destined to be fulfilled!

    Response(?) by BenPointer (previous thread) - Yeah, sorry about that - I'm afraid I had to disqualify your entry on account of it being totally pants bringing the noble art of PB Prediction into disrepute.

    Rejoinder - WTF?????? Who made YOU the Judge Dread of PB?!?!?

    I hereby appeal to the PB Community-At-Large-or-Small in the name of Natural Justice to overturn this gross abuse of power by the power-mad BP!!!!!!!!!!
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,893
    edited January 6
    If a Tory MP can earn more outside the Commons in the law or a company board or as a lobbyist maybe they will jump before pushed if in a marginal seat or if in a safe seat and they were a Minister or had Cabinet potential and the prospect of Opposition doesn't appeal, if not they probably won't.

    The type of MP who probably won't is the likes of this poor redwall Conservative MP mentioned in Dorries' book first elected in 2019.

    '...He stared into his mug of cold tea when I struggled to answer. 'I'm totally and utterly fucked', he said, more to himself as a statement of fact than a comment inviting discussion. 'That's it for me.' He looked close to tears. I knew that he had bought a new house for the family the summer following his election in December 2019. The salary he earnt before he became an MP was less than half of what he was earning now.'
    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Plot-Political-Assassination-Boris-Johnson/dp/0008623422/ref=sr_1_1?qid=1704557243&refinements=p_27:Nadine+Dorries&s=books&sr=1-1&asin=B0CBLTVL5C&revisionId=cc120981&format=1&depth=1
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,937
    NY Attorney General Letitia James seeking $370 million in the NY lawsuit.

    Plus banning Trump from ever doing business in New York.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,893
    edited January 6
    Whether the Tories win an election again within a decade or not depends on how Labour handle the economy. Handle it reasonably well as New Labour did and like post 1997 the Tories can expect to be in Opposition for 10 years or more.

    Handle it poorly as previous Labour governments did and the swingback to the Tories would be much more rapid. Remember after landslide defeat in 1945 the Tories were back in government in 1951, after losing power in 1964 they were back in power in 1970 ie within 10 years. Thatcher of course took the party back to government in 1979, just 5 years after Heath had lost the 1974 general elections to Wilson's Labour
  • Sad to see Edward Timpson going.

    Otherwise....

    A veritable Who's Who of nobodies, has-beens and people the Party (and Parliament) will be better off without.

    Which says it all about today's Tory Party.

    The Party needs some time in Opposition to get its stuff together and rejuvenate and come back in a generation with some fresh ideas.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,890
    edited January 6
    ...
    HYUFD said:

    If a Tory MP can earn more outside the Commons in the law or a company board or as a lobbyist maybe they will jump before pushed if in a marginal seat or if in a safe seat and they were a Minister or had Cabinet potential and the prospect of Opposition doesn't appeal, if not they probably won't.

    The type of MP who probably won't is the likes of this poor redwall Conservative MP mentioned in Dorries' book first elected in 2019.

    '...He stared into his mug of cold tea when I struggled to answer. 'I'm totally and utterly fucked', he said, more to himself as a statement of fact than a comment inviting discussion. 'That's it for me.' He looked close to tears. I knew that he had bought a new house for the family the summer following his election in December 2019. The salary he earnt before he became an MP was less than half of what he was earning now.'
    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Plot-Political-Assassination-Boris-Johnson/dp/0008623422/ref=sr_1_1?qid=1704557243&refinements=p_27:Nadine+Dorries&s=books&sr=1-1&asin=B0CBLTVL5C&revisionId=cc120981&format=1&depth=1

    Back in 1997 my defeated Conservative MP who was quite a decent guy struggled to find swift alternative employment. A guy who worked for me was a Senior Mason and friend to the MP. If I remember correctly they found him a sub-Postmaster role. Oh dear!
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,779
    HYUFD said:

    If a Tory MP can earn more outside the Commons in the law or a company board or as a lobbyist maybe they will jump before pushed if in a marginal seat or if in a safe seat and they were a Minister or had Cabinet potential and the prospect of Opposition doesn't appeal, if not they probably won't.

    The type of MP who probably won't is the likes of this poor redwall Conservative MP mentioned in Dorries' book first elected in 2019.

    '...He stared into his mug of cold tea when I struggled to answer. 'I'm totally and utterly fucked', he said, more to himself as a statement of fact than a comment inviting discussion. 'That's it for me.' He looked close to tears. I knew that he had bought a new house for the family the summer following his election in December 2019. The salary he earnt before he became an MP was less than half of what he was earning now.'
    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Plot-Political-Assassination-Boris-Johnson/dp/0008623422/ref=sr_1_1?qid=1704557243&refinements=p_27:Nadine+Dorries&s=books&sr=1-1&asin=B0CBLTVL5C&revisionId=cc120981&format=1&depth=1

    We're expected to feel sorry for him because the doubling of his salary lasted only five years?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,893

    ...

    HYUFD said:

    If a Tory MP can earn more outside the Commons in the law or a company board or as a lobbyist maybe they will jump before pushed if in a marginal seat or if in a safe seat and they were a Minister or had Cabinet potential and the prospect of Opposition doesn't appeal, if not they probably won't.

    The type of MP who probably won't is the likes of this poor redwall Conservative MP mentioned in Dorries' book first elected in 2019.

    '...He stared into his mug of cold tea when I struggled to answer. 'I'm totally and utterly fucked', he said, more to himself as a statement of fact than a comment inviting discussion. 'That's it for me.' He looked close to tears. I knew that he had bought a new house for the family the summer following his election in December 2019. The salary he earnt before he became an MP was less than half of what he was earning now.'
    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Plot-Political-Assassination-Boris-Johnson/dp/0008623422/ref=sr_1_1?qid=1704557243&refinements=p_27:Nadine+Dorries&s=books&sr=1-1&asin=B0CBLTVL5C&revisionId=cc120981&format=1&depth=1

    Back in 1997 my defeated Conservative MP who was quite a decent guy struggled to find swift alternative employment. A guy who worked for me was a Senior Mason and friend to the MP. If I remember correctly they found him a sub-Postmaster role. Oh dear!
    Similarly I know a few Labour MPs defeated in 2010 or 2019 went on benefits for a few months before they found work, often in PR, a think tank or for a charity or union
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,898
    Interesting stats on Uni attendance on the previous thread. I think we have a real problem with some people, often white working class, thinking university isn't for people like them. Not going to university is fine, not everyone will go and it's important to have good jobs and career paths for folk who don't, but I think that this attitude means some people are missing out on something that will help them in life and that also means the country is losing out on their skills in graduate jobs. Most minorities are the children or grandchildren of immigrants and often have a more positive view on education as offering a route to get on in life. I suspect they also probably feel like a degree helps to offset remaining labour market discrimination against them, and that they have fewer opportunities through informal/family channels. My daughter attends a state sixth form college in London that is quite challenging to get into, and it is striking how few white kids there are. She said in one class they were trying to figure out if there were any white British kids in the class, there was one.
  • Alphabet_SoupAlphabet_Soup Posts: 3,319
    Chris said:

    HYUFD said:

    If a Tory MP can earn more outside the Commons in the law or a company board or as a lobbyist maybe they will jump before pushed if in a marginal seat or if in a safe seat and they were a Minister or had Cabinet potential and the prospect of Opposition doesn't appeal, if not they probably won't.

    The type of MP who probably won't is the likes of this poor redwall Conservative MP mentioned in Dorries' book first elected in 2019.

    '...He stared into his mug of cold tea when I struggled to answer. 'I'm totally and utterly fucked', he said, more to himself as a statement of fact than a comment inviting discussion. 'That's it for me.' He looked close to tears. I knew that he had bought a new house for the family the summer following his election in December 2019. The salary he earnt before he became an MP was less than half of what he was earning now.'
    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Plot-Political-Assassination-Boris-Johnson/dp/0008623422/ref=sr_1_1?qid=1704557243&refinements=p_27:Nadine+Dorries&s=books&sr=1-1&asin=B0CBLTVL5C&revisionId=cc120981&format=1&depth=1

    We're expected to feel sorry for him because the doubling of his salary lasted only five years?
    And he bet the farm on keeping it.
  • EPGEPG Posts: 6,653
    In the US House, there used to be a strong incumbency bonus, as discerned by looking at freshmen's bids for reelection. But during the 1990s and 2000s it dwindled - people started to just sort by party regardless of the individual. No idea if this is also true in the UK House of Commons.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    NYT ($) - Denmark’s Next Queen Is a Progressive, Common-Born Former Australian
    “I don’t recall wishing that one day I would be a princess,” Princess Mary told reporters. “I wanted to be a veterinarian.”

    It was a classic Australian love story, set in a Sydney pub: Girl meets boy. Girl marries boy. Girl lives happily ever after.

    But when Mary Donaldson, then a 28-year-old from Tasmania working in real estate, met “Fred” — also known as Frederik, Crown Prince of Denmark — at the Slip Inn in September 2000, she was suddenly plunged into an entirely different fairy tale.

    “The first time that we met or shook hands, I did not know he was the crown prince of Denmark,” Mary said in a 2003 interview. “It was perhaps half an hour or so later that someone came up to me and said, ‘Do you know who these people are?’”

    This month, more than 23 years later, Mary — now Crown Princess Mary, aged 51 — will become Denmark’s next queen, after Queen Margrethe II announced her abdication in her New Year’s Day speech. Mary’s husband will become King Frederik X.

    She has become internationally acclaimed among royal watchers for her distinctive sense of personal style and her outspoken commitment to progressive causes, including climate change advocacy and sustainability, as well as the rights of women and children.

    In Denmark, she is adored. And in her native Australia, the unlikely story of their Tasmanian princess has for decades prompted frothy headlines and extensive coverage of their homegrown member of the Danish royal family and her much-vaunted wardrobe.

    In fact, Mary has long since renounced her Australian (and British, via her Scottish parents) citizenship. She retains only the slightest trace of her original accent and speaks fluent Danish. But in Australia, she is celebrated as a local treasure. . . .

    The British press’s effort to recast her as “Mary, Queen of Scots,” citing her Scottish roots, has prompted scathing commentary in Australia. “Not content with their own royal family,” The Melbourne Age newspaper said this week, “British newspapers are trying to claim Denmark’s next queen, Crown Princess Mary, as one of their own.” . . .

    SSI - Could Brit efforts to appropriate soon-to-be Queen Mary, in feeble attempt to add luster (or remove tarnish) from "Our Island Story" (meaning Britain NOT Tasmania) be as harmful to Anglo-Australian relations, as say

    > England's gross unsportsmenship re: Bodyline Scandal

    > Britain's gross incompetence re: Imperial "bastion" of Singapore

    > Churchill's less-than-noble sacrifice of ANZACs in Greece, Crete, Malaya, etc., etc.

    > WSC's nonchalance re: highly-possible Japanese invasion & subsequent conquest of Australia.

    Just sayin'
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,890
    edited January 6
    HYUFD said:

    ...

    HYUFD said:

    If a Tory MP can earn more outside the Commons in the law or a company board or as a lobbyist maybe they will jump before pushed if in a marginal seat or if in a safe seat and they were a Minister or had Cabinet potential and the prospect of Opposition doesn't appeal, if not they probably won't.

    The type of MP who probably won't is the likes of this poor redwall Conservative MP mentioned in Dorries' book first elected in 2019.

    '...He stared into his mug of cold tea when I struggled to answer. 'I'm totally and utterly fucked', he said, more to himself as a statement of fact than a comment inviting discussion. 'That's it for me.' He looked close to tears. I knew that he had bought a new house for the family the summer following his election in December 2019. The salary he earnt before he became an MP was less than half of what he was earning now.'
    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Plot-Political-Assassination-Boris-Johnson/dp/0008623422/ref=sr_1_1?qid=1704557243&refinements=p_27:Nadine+Dorries&s=books&sr=1-1&asin=B0CBLTVL5C&revisionId=cc120981&format=1&depth=1

    Back in 1997 my defeated Conservative MP who was quite a decent guy struggled to find swift alternative employment. A guy who worked for me was a Senior Mason and friend to the MP. If I remember correctly they found him a sub-Postmaster role. Oh dear!
    Similarly I know a few Labour MPs defeated in 2010 or 2019 went on benefits for a few months before they found work, often in PR, a think tank or for a charity or union
    If the election turns out to be brutal to the Tories it will be brutal post-election to a significant number of their defeated MPs.

    Pub Landlord and sub-Postmaster roles are no longer an option.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    Chris said:

    HYUFD said:

    If a Tory MP can earn more outside the Commons in the law or a company board or as a lobbyist maybe they will jump before pushed if in a marginal seat or if in a safe seat and they were a Minister or had Cabinet potential and the prospect of Opposition doesn't appeal, if not they probably won't.

    The type of MP who probably won't is the likes of this poor redwall Conservative MP mentioned in Dorries' book first elected in 2019.

    '...He stared into his mug of cold tea when I struggled to answer. 'I'm totally and utterly fucked', he said, more to himself as a statement of fact than a comment inviting discussion. 'That's it for me.' He looked close to tears. I knew that he had bought a new house for the family the summer following his election in December 2019. The salary he earnt before he became an MP was less than half of what he was earning now.'
    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Plot-Political-Assassination-Boris-Johnson/dp/0008623422/ref=sr_1_1?qid=1704557243&refinements=p_27:Nadine+Dorries&s=books&sr=1-1&asin=B0CBLTVL5C&revisionId=cc120981&format=1&depth=1

    We're expected to feel sorry for him because the doubling of his salary lasted only five years?
    Sounds like the kind who would have to buy his own furniture anyway? So hardly worth worrying about!
  • What I find interesting about those photos in the article header is that a large number of them are, for want of a better description, young and female. If politics in general, and the Conservative Party in particular, cannot entice women to stay on in a position which is notoriously difficult to obtain (i.e. becoming an MP) then we need to ask questions as to whether or not our system is working.

    To be fair, they may all be uniformly useless, and completely unfitted for the role, but that doesn't seem to have hindered their male counterparts.
  • HYUFD said:

    If a Tory MP can earn more outside the Commons in the law or a company board or as a lobbyist maybe they will jump before pushed if in a marginal seat or if in a safe seat and they were a Minister or had Cabinet potential and the prospect of Opposition doesn't appeal, if not they probably won't.

    The type of MP who probably won't is the likes of this poor redwall Conservative MP mentioned in Dorries' book first elected in 2019.

    '...He stared into his mug of cold tea when I struggled to answer. 'I'm totally and utterly fucked', he said, more to himself as a statement of fact than a comment inviting discussion. 'That's it for me.' He looked close to tears. I knew that he had bought a new house for the family the summer following his election in December 2019. The salary he earnt before he became an MP was less than half of what he was earning now.'
    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Plot-Political-Assassination-Boris-Johnson/dp/0008623422/ref=sr_1_1?qid=1704557243&refinements=p_27:Nadine+Dorries&s=books&sr=1-1&asin=B0CBLTVL5C&revisionId=cc120981&format=1&depth=1

    Its certainly true that MPs are grossly overpaid, and many of them will come back down to Earth with a bump post-defeat.

    However I don't have a violin tiny enough for any sympathy for them, they've reaped the benefits of being overpaid for years and if they lose its because they collectively have not done a good job.

    MPs should be paid much closer to the median salary, not something like the 98th percentile which it is currently.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,590
    edited January 6

    Interesting stats on Uni attendance on the previous thread. I think we have a real problem with some people, often white working class, thinking university isn't for people like them. Not going to university is fine, not everyone will go and it's important to have good jobs and career paths for folk who don't, but I think that this attitude means some people are missing out on something that will help them in life and that also means the country is losing out on their skills in graduate jobs. Most minorities are the children or grandchildren of immigrants and often have a more positive view on education as offering a route to get on in life. I suspect they also probably feel like a degree helps to offset remaining labour market discrimination against them, and that they have fewer opportunities through informal/family channels. My daughter attends a state sixth form college in London that is quite challenging to get into, and it is striking how few white kids there are. She said in one class they were trying to figure out if there were any white British kids in the class, there was one.

    At Durham University - at the Fresher's fair this year both the Northern and Working Class Societies were placed with the international societies.

    Worth saying that while Durham University does a lot of local outreach work to get people into University none of the local students twin A knows like it there.

    Should add I know this as twin A is a member of a number of clubs that are national organisations who just placed the person working in Durham doing a Degree Apprenticeship as a Durham student and the 3 clubs she's a member of like people who turn up to help and have a car...

    Edit to add - the latest disaster for poorer students in Durham is that rents next year will be at least £1000 more than the loan given if you can borrow the full amount - and no local business employs students because it's become far more gown versus town than it was a few years back.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559

    NY Attorney General Letitia James seeking $370 million in the NY lawsuit.

    Plus banning Trump from ever doing business in New York.

    Actually think that the malefactor NEXT on NY AG's naughty list, is even MORE significant, if you can believe that -

    Politico.com - NRA CEO Wayne LaPierre steps down amid corruption charges
    Andrew Arulanandam, previously the organization’s head of general operations, will take over for LaPierre as interim CEO and executive vice president.

    National Rifle Association Vice President and CEO Wayne LaPierre resigned from the organization Friday, just three days before the embattled leader is set to face a corruption trial in New York.

    “With pride in all that we have accomplished, I am announcing my resignation from the NRA,” LaPierre said. “I’ve been a card-carrying member of this organization for most of my adult life, and I will never stop supporting the NRA and its fight to defend Second Amendment freedom. My passion for our cause burns as deeply as ever.”

    Although the 74-year-old LaPierre cited health concerns as the reason for his resignation, the gun organization’s release addressed the fact that LaPierre is “an individual defendant” in New York Attorney General Tish James’ corruption case.

    “With respect to the NYAG’s allegations, the NRA Board of Directors reports it has undertaken significant efforts to perform a self-evaluation, recommended termination of disgraced ‘insiders’ and vendors who allegedly abused the Association, and accepted reimbursement, with interest, for alleged excess benefit transactions from LaPierre, as reported in public tax filings.”

    The trial, which is set to start Monday, grew out of a civil suit James initially filed in 2020 alleging that LaPierre and other NRA leaders improperly used funds for personal gain, along with a host of other incidents of financial wrongdoing and mismanagement. James’ effort aims in part to hobble the organization by ousting leaders like LaPierre. . . .

    https://www.politico.com/news/2024/01/05/nra-vice-president-steps-down-amid-corruption-charges-00134094
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,186
    52 is now 51. We can cross Chris Skidmark off the list.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,898
    eek said:

    Interesting stats on Uni attendance on the previous thread. I think we have a real problem with some people, often white working class, thinking university isn't for people like them. Not going to university is fine, not everyone will go and it's important to have good jobs and career paths for folk who don't, but I think that this attitude means some people are missing out on something that will help them in life and that also means the country is losing out on their skills in graduate jobs. Most minorities are the children or grandchildren of immigrants and often have a more positive view on education as offering a route to get on in life. I suspect they also probably feel like a degree helps to offset remaining labour market discrimination against them, and that they have fewer opportunities through informal/family channels. My daughter attends a state sixth form college in London that is quite challenging to get into, and it is striking how few white kids there are. She said in one class they were trying to figure out if there were any white British kids in the class, there was one.

    At Durham University - at the Fresher's fair this year both the Northern and Working Class Societies were placed with the international societies.

    Worth saying that while Durham University does a lot of local outreach work to get people into University none of the local students twin A knows like it there.

    Should add I know this as twin A is a member of a number of clubs that are national organisations who just placed the person working in Durham doing a Degree Apprenticeship as a Durham student and the 3 clubs she's a member of like people who turn up to help and have a car...
    There is a genuine problem with the fact that parts of the social life and culture at some universities are so alien to a lot of people, but what do you expect with a country that is so polarised along class lines, seperate schools for the rich etc? I remember being pretty alienated when I went to Cambridge, coming from a Scottish comprehensive school. Seeing all these kids wearing black tie everywhere I was like wtf. And I am solidly middle class with two parents who went to uni. I knew working class friends who were pretty bewildered and disgusted by it all. I didn't know anyone who was thrown by the academic side of things, as you can imagine any working class kid at Cambridge is no stranger to hard work and motivating themselves, it was the other students and elements of the social side of things that created barriers, nothing to do with academic life.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,567
    eek said:

    ClippP said:

    They talk about the advantage of incumbency, but I wonder if this is a myth,

    I suspect it could be true when the MP is new, full of enthusiasm and happy to talk about the government's achievements.

    But in the present Parliament, there are no positive Government achievements to be wheeled out to the grateful populace, so everything must be highly depressing for the Tory MPs, be they first time incumbents or old stagers.

    No wonder they are all packing up. After all, they were the ones who made it all happen in the first place.

    I suspect incumbency gives you a 2-5% bounce which means in a tight fought election a few MPs who may otherwise have lost stay because they did a decent job in the last few years (and probably helped someone the vote knows out in same way or other).

    It probably doesn't help much if 25% of voters change their vote and are now voting for the opposition party.
    I think that's right. The 1992 and 2010 elections were extremely similar in shares of national vote (7% Conservative lead). The result in Broxtowe changed from 16.2% Tory lead to 0.7% lead (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broxtowe_(UK_Parliament_constituency)). I don't think I was a miraculously good MP, but I was assiduous in helping individuals (a major part of job satisfaction) and building up a friendly dialogue - by the end of the period I had over 10% of all households getting weekly chatty emails from me. I never spent much time on hard sell of Government policies - a typical email was a discussion of what the options were for a current issue, with a comment on my current view and an invitation to say what they thought. Sometimes, e.g. on assisted dying, their responses changed my mind. People generally liked it, regardless of what they thought about Government successes or failures.

    In 2015 when I stood again, I'd lost the daily contact of incumbency and the effect largely wore off - I lost that one by 8%, although the national result was again a Tory lead of 6.5%.
  • MJWMJW Posts: 1,737
    HYUFD said:

    Whether the Tories win an election again within a decade or not depends on how Labour handle the economy. Handle it reasonably well as New Labour did and like post 1997 the Tories can expect to be in Opposition for 10 years or more.

    Handle it poorly as previous Labour governments did and the swingback to the Tories would be much more rapid. Remember after landslide defeat in 1945 the Tories were back in government in 1951, after losing power in 1964 they were back in power in 1970 ie within 10 years. Thatcher of course took the party back to government in 1979, just 5 years after Heath had lost the 1974 general elections to Wilson's Labour

    Obviously anything's possible and one shouldn't rule out a Tory comeback, but it may be very optimistic about the hole the Tories are in with a large swathe of the public. Even a fairly dud Labour government could plausibly lay most of its economic difficulties at the door of the previous government's failures and a wasted decade.

    You can see it in polling where the Tories figures among those of working age are pitiful (and that includes those in the past who'd be moving to vote solidly Tory). It may be in a doom loop whereby its route to recovery is blocked by the fact it's increasingly reliant on the wealthy old, so can't propose growth-friendly policies that irk them. But without doing so cater to a base with diminishing returns and further cement their reputation as the party of economic decline.

    What we may witness is something like 1979, a generational sea change whereby for a lot of people of a certain generation, Labour gained a reputation for economic mismanagement and supporting a broken model it arguably hasn't shaken off with those of that age. With the one era of success coming when Blair and Brown made clear the party had moved away from that.

    The next successful Tory leader may well have to prove that similarly, they're not wedded to the right of the party's failed approach, and their ostensibly liberal wing's weakness in appeasing them.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    eek said:

    Interesting stats on Uni attendance on the previous thread. I think we have a real problem with some people, often white working class, thinking university isn't for people like them. Not going to university is fine, not everyone will go and it's important to have good jobs and career paths for folk who don't, but I think that this attitude means some people are missing out on something that will help them in life and that also means the country is losing out on their skills in graduate jobs. Most minorities are the children or grandchildren of immigrants and often have a more positive view on education as offering a route to get on in life. I suspect they also probably feel like a degree helps to offset remaining labour market discrimination against them, and that they have fewer opportunities through informal/family channels. My daughter attends a state sixth form college in London that is quite challenging to get into, and it is striking how few white kids there are. She said in one class they were trying to figure out if there were any white British kids in the class, there was one.

    At Durham University - at the Fresher's fair this year both the Northern and Working Class Societies were placed with the international societies.

    Worth saying that while Durham University does a lot of local outreach work to get people into University none of the local students twin A knows like it there.

    Should add I know this as twin A is a member of a number of clubs that are national organisations who just placed the person working in Durham doing a Degree Apprenticeship as a Durham student and the 3 clubs she's a member of like people who turn up to help and have a car...

    Edit to add - the latest disaster for poorer students in Durham is that rents next year will be at least £1000 more than the loan given if you can borrow the full amount - and no local business employs students because it's become far more gown versus town than it was a few years back.
    Durham Castle is an amazing setting for a university.

    However, when I was last there, you need a bank loan to afford what B&Bs in the town were charging . . . . so I drove on and found someplace to lay my weary head that was better AND cheaper.

    Can certainly see how tough it must be for struggling students versus the well-heeled.
  • eek said:

    Interesting stats on Uni attendance on the previous thread. I think we have a real problem with some people, often white working class, thinking university isn't for people like them. Not going to university is fine, not everyone will go and it's important to have good jobs and career paths for folk who don't, but I think that this attitude means some people are missing out on something that will help them in life and that also means the country is losing out on their skills in graduate jobs. Most minorities are the children or grandchildren of immigrants and often have a more positive view on education as offering a route to get on in life. I suspect they also probably feel like a degree helps to offset remaining labour market discrimination against them, and that they have fewer opportunities through informal/family channels. My daughter attends a state sixth form college in London that is quite challenging to get into, and it is striking how few white kids there are. She said in one class they were trying to figure out if there were any white British kids in the class, there was one.

    At Durham University - at the Fresher's fair this year both the Northern and Working Class Societies were placed with the international societies.

    Worth saying that while Durham University does a lot of local outreach work to get people into University none of the local students twin A knows like it there.

    Should add I know this as twin A is a member of a number of clubs that are national organisations who just placed the person working in Durham doing a Degree Apprenticeship as a Durham student and the 3 clubs she's a member of like people who turn up to help and have a car...
    There is a genuine problem with the fact that parts of the social life and culture at some universities are so alien to a lot of people, but what do you expect with a country that is so polarised along class lines, seperate schools for the rich etc? I remember being pretty alienated when I went to Cambridge, coming from a Scottish comprehensive school. Seeing all these kids wearing black tie everywhere I was like wtf. And I am solidly middle class with two parents who went to uni. I knew working class friends who were pretty bewildered and disgusted by it all. I didn't know anyone who was thrown by the academic side of things, as you can imagine any working class kid at Cambridge is no stranger to hard work and motivating themselves, it was the other students and elements of the social side of things that created barriers, nothing to do with academic life.
    I take your point, I really do, but isn't coming across people like that, and learning how to mix with them, what "diversity" is all about? WWC students will need to meet and get on with people of different races, nationalities, religions, political persuasions etc etc - why should the middle classes, or wannabe middle classes, or posho aristos be subject to particular disdain by the WWClasses?
  • HYUFD said:

    ...

    HYUFD said:

    If a Tory MP can earn more outside the Commons in the law or a company board or as a lobbyist maybe they will jump before pushed if in a marginal seat or if in a safe seat and they were a Minister or had Cabinet potential and the prospect of Opposition doesn't appeal, if not they probably won't.

    The type of MP who probably won't is the likes of this poor redwall Conservative MP mentioned in Dorries' book first elected in 2019.

    '...He stared into his mug of cold tea when I struggled to answer. 'I'm totally and utterly fucked', he said, more to himself as a statement of fact than a comment inviting discussion. 'That's it for me.' He looked close to tears. I knew that he had bought a new house for the family the summer following his election in December 2019. The salary he earnt before he became an MP was less than half of what he was earning now.'
    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Plot-Political-Assassination-Boris-Johnson/dp/0008623422/ref=sr_1_1?qid=1704557243&refinements=p_27:Nadine+Dorries&s=books&sr=1-1&asin=B0CBLTVL5C&revisionId=cc120981&format=1&depth=1

    Back in 1997 my defeated Conservative MP who was quite a decent guy struggled to find swift alternative employment. A guy who worked for me was a Senior Mason and friend to the MP. If I remember correctly they found him a sub-Postmaster role. Oh dear!
    Similarly I know a few Labour MPs defeated in 2010 or 2019 went on benefits for a few months before they found work, often in PR, a think tank or for a charity or union
    Because they're that useless, they can't get a proper job. Fuck 'em. There's plenty of jobs available. Farm work, carers, fast food delivery....jobs that they encourage others to do.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,963
    About to close the shop. Got a lot of work done, as the number of customers today has been ZERO. Talk about a post-Christmas lull!
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,893
    edited January 6

    eek said:

    Interesting stats on Uni attendance on the previous thread. I think we have a real problem with some people, often white working class, thinking university isn't for people like them. Not going to university is fine, not everyone will go and it's important to have good jobs and career paths for folk who don't, but I think that this attitude means some people are missing out on something that will help them in life and that also means the country is losing out on their skills in graduate jobs. Most minorities are the children or grandchildren of immigrants and often have a more positive view on education as offering a route to get on in life. I suspect they also probably feel like a degree helps to offset remaining labour market discrimination against them, and that they have fewer opportunities through informal/family channels. My daughter attends a state sixth form college in London that is quite challenging to get into, and it is striking how few white kids there are. She said in one class they were trying to figure out if there were any white British kids in the class, there was one.

    At Durham University - at the Fresher's fair this year both the Northern and Working Class Societies were placed with the international societies.

    Worth saying that while Durham University does a lot of local outreach work to get people into University none of the local students twin A knows like it there.

    Should add I know this as twin A is a member of a number of clubs that are national organisations who just placed the person working in Durham doing a Degree Apprenticeship as a Durham student and the 3 clubs she's a member of like people who turn up to help and have a car...
    There is a genuine problem with the fact that parts of the social life and culture at some universities are so alien to a lot of people, but what do you expect with a country that is so polarised along class lines, seperate schools for the rich etc? I remember being pretty alienated when I went to Cambridge, coming from a Scottish comprehensive school. Seeing all these kids wearing black tie everywhere I was like wtf. And I am solidly middle class with two parents who went to uni. I knew working class friends who were pretty bewildered and disgusted by it all. I didn't know anyone who was thrown by the academic side of things, as you can imagine any working class kid at Cambridge is no stranger to hard work and motivating themselves, it was the other students and elements of the social side of things that created barriers, nothing to do with academic life.
    Oxbridge prepares people for top careers - the Bar and Judiciary, City of London boardrooms, the top ranks of Whitehall and the Cabinet and diplomatic service, the BBC and broadsheet national newspapers etc as well as producing its own future academics.

    Plenty of black tie dinners and formal occasions in all those careers. About 2/3 of Oxbridge students are now state educated but that doesn't stop it still doing what it can with formal dinners, the Oxford Union etc to offer opportunities and the confidence needed to do well in the top jobs socially as well as academically
  • HYUFD said:

    ...

    HYUFD said:

    If a Tory MP can earn more outside the Commons in the law or a company board or as a lobbyist maybe they will jump before pushed if in a marginal seat or if in a safe seat and they were a Minister or had Cabinet potential and the prospect of Opposition doesn't appeal, if not they probably won't.

    The type of MP who probably won't is the likes of this poor redwall Conservative MP mentioned in Dorries' book first elected in 2019.

    '...He stared into his mug of cold tea when I struggled to answer. 'I'm totally and utterly fucked', he said, more to himself as a statement of fact than a comment inviting discussion. 'That's it for me.' He looked close to tears. I knew that he had bought a new house for the family the summer following his election in December 2019. The salary he earnt before he became an MP was less than half of what he was earning now.'
    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Plot-Political-Assassination-Boris-Johnson/dp/0008623422/ref=sr_1_1?qid=1704557243&refinements=p_27:Nadine+Dorries&s=books&sr=1-1&asin=B0CBLTVL5C&revisionId=cc120981&format=1&depth=1

    Back in 1997 my defeated Conservative MP who was quite a decent guy struggled to find swift alternative employment. A guy who worked for me was a Senior Mason and friend to the MP. If I remember correctly they found him a sub-Postmaster role. Oh dear!
    Similarly I know a few Labour MPs defeated in 2010 or 2019 went on benefits for a few months before they found work, often in PR, a think tank or for a charity or union
    Because they're that useless, they can't get a proper job. Fuck 'em. There's plenty of jobs available. Farm work, carers, fast food delivery....jobs that they encourage others to do.
    Absolutely, there's plenty of work available for people out there, so long as they don't view working as beneath them.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    BIG NEWS here in Seattle - and BAD NEWS for Boeing, certainly contrast with the good news for AIrbus re: Japan crash & burn:

    AP (via Seattle Times) - Alaska Airlines 737 lands safely after a window blows out 3 miles over Oregon

    An Alaska Airlines jetliner blew out a window and a portion of its fuselage shortly after takeoff three miles above Oregon, creating a gaping hole that sucked clothing off a child and forced the pilots to make an emergency landing as its 174 passengers and six crew members donned oxygen masks.

    No one was seriously hurt as the depressurized plane returned safely Friday night to Portland International Airport about 20 minutes after it had departed, but the airline grounded its 65 Boeing 737-9 Max aircraft until they can be inspected. The National Transportation Safety Board said Saturday it will also investigate.

    Passenger Evan Smith said a boy and his mother were sitting in the row where the window blew out and the child’s shirt was sucked off him and out of the plane. . . .

    Alaska Airlines CEO Ben Minicucci said the inspection of the company 737-9 fleet aircraft could take days to complete. They make up a fifth of the company’s 314 planes. It wasn’t immediately known Saturday how that would affect the company’s flight schedule. . . .

    Flight 1282 had taken off from Portland at 5:07 p.m. Friday for a two-hour flight to Ontario, California. About six minutes later, the window and a chunk of the fuselage blew out as the plane was at about 16,000 feet (4.8 kilometers). . . .

    Videos posted by passengers online showed a gaping hole where the window had been and passengers wearing their masks. . . .

    The aircraft involved rolled off the assembly line and received its certification just two months ago, according to online FAA records. The plane had been on 145 flights since entering commercial service on Nov. 11, said FlightRadar24, another tracking service. The flight from Portland was the aircraft’s third of the day.

    Last year, the FAA told pilots to limit use of an anti-ice system on the Max in dry conditions because of concern that inlets around the engines could overheat and break away, possibly striking the plane.

    Max deliveries have been interrupted at times to fix manufacturing flaws. The company told airlines in December to inspect the planes for a possible loose bolt in the rudder-control system.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,890

    HYUFD said:

    ...

    HYUFD said:

    If a Tory MP can earn more outside the Commons in the law or a company board or as a lobbyist maybe they will jump before pushed if in a marginal seat or if in a safe seat and they were a Minister or had Cabinet potential and the prospect of Opposition doesn't appeal, if not they probably won't.

    The type of MP who probably won't is the likes of this poor redwall Conservative MP mentioned in Dorries' book first elected in 2019.

    '...He stared into his mug of cold tea when I struggled to answer. 'I'm totally and utterly fucked', he said, more to himself as a statement of fact than a comment inviting discussion. 'That's it for me.' He looked close to tears. I knew that he had bought a new house for the family the summer following his election in December 2019. The salary he earnt before he became an MP was less than half of what he was earning now.'
    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Plot-Political-Assassination-Boris-Johnson/dp/0008623422/ref=sr_1_1?qid=1704557243&refinements=p_27:Nadine+Dorries&s=books&sr=1-1&asin=B0CBLTVL5C&revisionId=cc120981&format=1&depth=1

    Back in 1997 my defeated Conservative MP who was quite a decent guy struggled to find swift alternative employment. A guy who worked for me was a Senior Mason and friend to the MP. If I remember correctly they found him a sub-Postmaster role. Oh dear!
    Similarly I know a few Labour MPs defeated in 2010 or 2019 went on benefits for a few months before they found work, often in PR, a think tank or for a charity or union
    Because they're that useless, they can't get a proper job. Fuck 'em. There's plenty of jobs available. Farm work, carers, fast food delivery....jobs that they encourage others to do.
    If the election goes to plan there will need to be a f***load of PR, think-tank and Directors of Charity vacancies available.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,805
    Re the header: ... and how many will join them at the election?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,893
    MJW said:

    HYUFD said:

    Whether the Tories win an election again within a decade or not depends on how Labour handle the economy. Handle it reasonably well as New Labour did and like post 1997 the Tories can expect to be in Opposition for 10 years or more.

    Handle it poorly as previous Labour governments did and the swingback to the Tories would be much more rapid. Remember after landslide defeat in 1945 the Tories were back in government in 1951, after losing power in 1964 they were back in power in 1970 ie within 10 years. Thatcher of course took the party back to government in 1979, just 5 years after Heath had lost the 1974 general elections to Wilson's Labour

    Obviously anything's possible and one shouldn't rule out a Tory comeback, but it may be very optimistic about the hole the Tories are in with a large swathe of the public. Even a fairly dud Labour government could plausibly lay most of its economic difficulties at the door of the previous government's failures and a wasted decade.

    You can see it in polling where the Tories figures among those of working age are pitiful (and that includes those in the past who'd be moving to vote solidly Tory). It may be in a doom loop whereby its route to recovery is blocked by the fact it's increasingly reliant on the wealthy old, so can't propose growth-friendly policies that irk them. But without doing so cater to a base with diminishing returns and further cement their reputation as the party of economic decline.

    What we may witness is something like 1979, a generational sea change whereby for a lot of people of a certain generation, Labour gained a reputation for economic mismanagement and supporting a broken model it arguably hasn't shaken off with those of that age. With the one era of success coming when Blair and Brown made clear the party had moved away from that.

    The next successful Tory leader may well have to prove that similarly, they're not wedded to the right of the party's failed approach, and their ostensibly liberal wing's weakness in appeasing them.
    Remember by the end of 1980 even Michael Foot led Thatcher in the polls as unemployment rose, indeed Thatcher would probably have lost in 1983 had she not got unemployment as well as inflation down and cut strikes by then and won in the Falklands.

    If economy is poor and frequent strikes and high inflation under a Starmer government even a rightwinger as Tory leader could wing much as the supposedly 'unelectable' Thatcher won as a rightwinger against the 1979 Labour government after only 5 years of the Tories in opposition
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,893
    edited January 6

    HYUFD said:

    If a Tory MP can earn more outside the Commons in the law or a company board or as a lobbyist maybe they will jump before pushed if in a marginal seat or if in a safe seat and they were a Minister or had Cabinet potential and the prospect of Opposition doesn't appeal, if not they probably won't.

    The type of MP who probably won't is the likes of this poor redwall Conservative MP mentioned in Dorries' book first elected in 2019.

    '...He stared into his mug of cold tea when I struggled to answer. 'I'm totally and utterly fucked', he said, more to himself as a statement of fact than a comment inviting discussion. 'That's it for me.' He looked close to tears. I knew that he had bought a new house for the family the summer following his election in December 2019. The salary he earnt before he became an MP was less than half of what he was earning now.'
    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Plot-Political-Assassination-Boris-Johnson/dp/0008623422/ref=sr_1_1?qid=1704557243&refinements=p_27:Nadine+Dorries&s=books&sr=1-1&asin=B0CBLTVL5C&revisionId=cc120981&format=1&depth=1

    Its certainly true that MPs are grossly overpaid, and many of them will come back down to Earth with a bump post-defeat.

    However I don't have a violin tiny enough for any sympathy for them, they've reaped the benefits of being overpaid for years and if they lose its because they collectively have not done a good job.

    MPs should be paid much closer to the median salary, not something like the 98th percentile which it is currently.
    MPs are grossly overpaid if you want only slightly above average intellect and career wise candidates as you clearly do.

    If you want the top 1% intellect and career wise to consider a political career however MPs are significantly underpaid. They aren't going to take a pay cut and considerable media and social media intrusion just for the outside chance of a Cabinet post and more likely spending much of the time on the backbenches.

    So we will get more of the MPs we deserve, increasingly party hacks and ex councillors or parliamentary researchers
  • twistedfirestopper3twistedfirestopper3 Posts: 2,452
    edited January 6

    HYUFD said:

    ...

    HYUFD said:

    If a Tory MP can earn more outside the Commons in the law or a company board or as a lobbyist maybe they will jump before pushed if in a marginal seat or if in a safe seat and they were a Minister or had Cabinet potential and the prospect of Opposition doesn't appeal, if not they probably won't.

    The type of MP who probably won't is the likes of this poor redwall Conservative MP mentioned in Dorries' book first elected in 2019.

    '...He stared into his mug of cold tea when I struggled to answer. 'I'm totally and utterly fucked', he said, more to himself as a statement of fact than a comment inviting discussion. 'That's it for me.' He looked close to tears. I knew that he had bought a new house for the family the summer following his election in December 2019. The salary he earnt before he became an MP was less than half of what he was earning now.'
    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Plot-Political-Assassination-Boris-Johnson/dp/0008623422/ref=sr_1_1?qid=1704557243&refinements=p_27:Nadine+Dorries&s=books&sr=1-1&asin=B0CBLTVL5C&revisionId=cc120981&format=1&depth=1

    Back in 1997 my defeated Conservative MP who was quite a decent guy struggled to find swift alternative employment. A guy who worked for me was a Senior Mason and friend to the MP. If I remember correctly they found him a sub-Postmaster role. Oh dear!
    Similarly I know a few Labour MPs defeated in 2010 or 2019 went on benefits for a few months before they found work, often in PR, a think tank or for a charity or union
    Because they're that useless, they can't get a proper job. Fuck 'em. There's plenty of jobs available. Farm work, carers, fast food delivery....jobs that they encourage others to do.
    Absolutely, there's plenty of work available for people out there, so long as they don't view working as beneath them.
    I've got zero sympathy for any of them. The current crop of Tory MPs have ruined the country. We can't build any major infrastructure, can't keep the military working, can't keep the current infrastructure going. We're on our arse. They deserve to share in the hurt they've inflicted on the rest of us.
    I'm comfortably off and healthy. I'd hate to be struggling to make ends meet and have poor health in this country now.
    I keep banging on about the flooding, but it's genuinely a disaster for my area, and I think the sitting MPs around here will suffer at the ballot box.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    Talk about unfortunate timing . . .

    Seattle Times ($) - Boeing wants FAA to exempt MAX 7 from safety rules to get it in the air
    By Dominic Gates, Seattle Times aerospace reporter

    Little noticed, the Federal Aviation Administration in December published a Boeing request for an exemption from key safety standards on the 737 MAX 7 — the still-uncertified smallest member of Boeing’s newest jet family.

    Since August, earlier models of the MAX currently flying passengers in the U.S. have had to limit use of the jet’s engine anti-ice system after Boeing discovered a defect in the system with potentially catastrophic consequences.

    The flaw could cause the inlet at the front end of the pod surrounding the engine — known as a nacelle — to break and fall off.

    In an August Airworthiness Directive, the FAA stated that debris from such a breakup could penetrate the fuselage, putting passengers seated at windows behind the wings in danger, and could damage the wing or tail of the plane, “which could result in loss of control of the airplane.”

    Dennis Tajer, a spokesperson for the Allied Pilots Association, the union representing 15,000 American Airlines pilots, said the flaw in the engine anti-ice system has “given us great concern.”

    He said the pilot procedure the FAA approved as an interim solution — urging pilots to make sure to turn off the system when icing conditions dissipate to avoid overheating that within five minutes could seriously damage the structure of the nacelle — is inadequate given the serious potential danger. . . .
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    If a Tory MP can earn more outside the Commons in the law or a company board or as a lobbyist maybe they will jump before pushed if in a marginal seat or if in a safe seat and they were a Minister or had Cabinet potential and the prospect of Opposition doesn't appeal, if not they probably won't.

    The type of MP who probably won't is the likes of this poor redwall Conservative MP mentioned in Dorries' book first elected in 2019.

    '...He stared into his mug of cold tea when I struggled to answer. 'I'm totally and utterly fucked', he said, more to himself as a statement of fact than a comment inviting discussion. 'That's it for me.' He looked close to tears. I knew that he had bought a new house for the family the summer following his election in December 2019. The salary he earnt before he became an MP was less than half of what he was earning now.'
    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Plot-Political-Assassination-Boris-Johnson/dp/0008623422/ref=sr_1_1?qid=1704557243&refinements=p_27:Nadine+Dorries&s=books&sr=1-1&asin=B0CBLTVL5C&revisionId=cc120981&format=1&depth=1

    Its certainly true that MPs are grossly overpaid, and many of them will come back down to Earth with a bump post-defeat.

    However I don't have a violin tiny enough for any sympathy for them, they've reaped the benefits of being overpaid for years and if they lose its because they collectively have not done a good job.

    MPs should be paid much closer to the median salary, not something like the 98th percentile which it is currently.
    MPs are grossly overpaid if you want only slightly above average career wise candidates as you clearly do.

    If you want the top 1% career wise to consider a political career however MPs are significantly underpaid, they aren't going to take a pay cut and considerable media and social media intrusion just for the outside chance of a Cabinet post and more likely spending much of the time on the backbenches
    So you're saying that because we pay peanuts, we've got monkeys as MPs? Sounds about right.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,805

    Cri de coeur from SeaShantyIrish2 - Notice - Yours truly notes absence of my own humble nom de PB from the posted list of predictors, despite the fact I have submitted my entry.

    WHY??????????

    AND does this mean that this "election" has been rigged, by some conspiracy of the PB Powers That Be?

    J'accuse!!!!!!!!

    To underline the absurdity of this rank injustice, based on unreliable reports received via my custom-built tin-foil helmet, can reveal that 99.46% of my prognostications are destined to be fulfilled!

    Response(?) by BenPointer (previous thread) - Yeah, sorry about that - I'm afraid I had to disqualify your entry on account of it being totally pants bringing the noble art of PB Prediction into disrepute.

    Rejoinder - WTF?????? Who made YOU the Judge Dread of PB?!?!?

    I hereby appeal to the PB Community-At-Large-or-Small in the name of Natural Justice to overturn this gross abuse of power by the power-mad BP!!!!!!!!!!

    How's that going? ;-)
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559

    Cri de coeur from SeaShantyIrish2 - Notice - Yours truly notes absence of my own humble nom de PB from the posted list of predictors, despite the fact I have submitted my entry.

    WHY??????????

    AND does this mean that this "election" has been rigged, by some conspiracy of the PB Powers That Be?

    J'accuse!!!!!!!!

    To underline the absurdity of this rank injustice, based on unreliable reports received via my custom-built tin-foil helmet, can reveal that 99.46% of my prognostications are destined to be fulfilled!

    Response(?) by BenPointer (previous thread) - Yeah, sorry about that - I'm afraid I had to disqualify your entry on account of it being totally pants bringing the noble art of PB Prediction into disrepute.

    Rejoinder - WTF?????? Who made YOU the Judge Dread of PB?!?!?

    I hereby appeal to the PB Community-At-Large-or-Small in the name of Natural Justice to overturn this gross abuse of power by the power-mad BP!!!!!!!!!!

    How's that going? ;-)
    Reply worthy of Mad Vlad! Have you NO shame?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,893
    edited January 6

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    If a Tory MP can earn more outside the Commons in the law or a company board or as a lobbyist maybe they will jump before pushed if in a marginal seat or if in a safe seat and they were a Minister or had Cabinet potential and the prospect of Opposition doesn't appeal, if not they probably won't.

    The type of MP who probably won't is the likes of this poor redwall Conservative MP mentioned in Dorries' book first elected in 2019.

    '...He stared into his mug of cold tea when I struggled to answer. 'I'm totally and utterly fucked', he said, more to himself as a statement of fact than a comment inviting discussion. 'That's it for me.' He looked close to tears. I knew that he had bought a new house for the family the summer following his election in December 2019. The salary he earnt before he became an MP was less than half of what he was earning now.'
    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Plot-Political-Assassination-Boris-Johnson/dp/0008623422/ref=sr_1_1?qid=1704557243&refinements=p_27:Nadine+Dorries&s=books&sr=1-1&asin=B0CBLTVL5C&revisionId=cc120981&format=1&depth=1

    Its certainly true that MPs are grossly overpaid, and many of them will come back down to Earth with a bump post-defeat.

    However I don't have a violin tiny enough for any sympathy for them, they've reaped the benefits of being overpaid for years and if they lose its because they collectively have not done a good job.

    MPs should be paid much closer to the median salary, not something like the 98th percentile which it is currently.
    MPs are grossly overpaid if you want only slightly above average career wise candidates as you clearly do.

    If you want the top 1% career wise to consider a political career however MPs are significantly underpaid, they aren't going to take a pay cut and considerable media and social media intrusion just for the outside chance of a Cabinet post and more likely spending much of the time on the backbenches
    So you're saying that because we pay peanuts, we've got monkeys as MPs? Sounds about right.
    No, we probably pay them about right, £80k. Maybe we could go a little higher to £100k, pay the PM and Cabinet Ministers £200k and cut their number (and the numbers in the Lords).

    Bart however seems to want to pay MPs only about £35-40k, which is less than even some senior county or London borough councillors get paid
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,805

    Cri de coeur from SeaShantyIrish2 - Notice - Yours truly notes absence of my own humble nom de PB from the posted list of predictors, despite the fact I have submitted my entry.

    WHY??????????

    AND does this mean that this "election" has been rigged, by some conspiracy of the PB Powers That Be?

    J'accuse!!!!!!!!

    To underline the absurdity of this rank injustice, based on unreliable reports received via my custom-built tin-foil helmet, can reveal that 99.46% of my prognostications are destined to be fulfilled!

    Response(?) by BenPointer (previous thread) - Yeah, sorry about that - I'm afraid I had to disqualify your entry on account of it being totally pants bringing the noble art of PB Prediction into disrepute.

    Rejoinder - WTF?????? Who made YOU the Judge Dread of PB?!?!?

    I hereby appeal to the PB Community-At-Large-or-Small in the name of Natural Justice to overturn this gross abuse of power by the power-mad BP!!!!!!!!!!

    How's that going? ;-)
    Reply worthy of Mad Vlad! Have you NO shame?
    Why don't you wonder over to this window and let me explain?
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559

    HYUFD said:

    ...

    HYUFD said:

    If a Tory MP can earn more outside the Commons in the law or a company board or as a lobbyist maybe they will jump before pushed if in a marginal seat or if in a safe seat and they were a Minister or had Cabinet potential and the prospect of Opposition doesn't appeal, if not they probably won't.

    The type of MP who probably won't is the likes of this poor redwall Conservative MP mentioned in Dorries' book first elected in 2019.

    '...He stared into his mug of cold tea when I struggled to answer. 'I'm totally and utterly fucked', he said, more to himself as a statement of fact than a comment inviting discussion. 'That's it for me.' He looked close to tears. I knew that he had bought a new house for the family the summer following his election in December 2019. The salary he earnt before he became an MP was less than half of what he was earning now.'
    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Plot-Political-Assassination-Boris-Johnson/dp/0008623422/ref=sr_1_1?qid=1704557243&refinements=p_27:Nadine+Dorries&s=books&sr=1-1&asin=B0CBLTVL5C&revisionId=cc120981&format=1&depth=1

    Back in 1997 my defeated Conservative MP who was quite a decent guy struggled to find swift alternative employment. A guy who worked for me was a Senior Mason and friend to the MP. If I remember correctly they found him a sub-Postmaster role. Oh dear!
    Similarly I know a few Labour MPs defeated in 2010 or 2019 went on benefits for a few months before they found work, often in PR, a think tank or for a charity or union
    Because they're that useless, they can't get a proper job. Fuck 'em. There's plenty of jobs available. Farm work, carers, fast food delivery....jobs that they encourage others to do.
    Absolutely, there's plenty of work available for people out there, so long as they don't view working as beneath them.
    I've got zero sympathy for any of them. The current crop of Tory MPs have ruined the country. We can't build any major infrastructure, can't keep the military working, can't keep the current infrastructure going. We're on our arse. They deserve to share in the hurt they've inflicted on the rest of us.
    I'm comfortably off and healthy. I'd hate to be struggling to make ends meet and have poor health in this country now.
    I keep banging on about the flooding, but it's genuinely a disaster for my area, and I think the sitting MPs around here will suffer at the ballot box.
    IF yours truly was an MP representing part of current flood zone, would be breaking out my waders and manhandling sandbags trying to help out my constituents - humbly BUT publically.

    Strange just how many politicos are too dumb & or lazy to do just that?

    And NOT just in UK. Remember the "example" set by US Sen. Ted Cruz (R-Cancun)?
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,905
    Thanks for the header.

    Do we have this data on a map?
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,394
    Chris said:

    HYUFD said:

    If a Tory MP can earn more outside the Commons in the law or a company board or as a lobbyist maybe they will jump before pushed if in a marginal seat or if in a safe seat and they were a Minister or had Cabinet potential and the prospect of Opposition doesn't appeal, if not they probably won't.

    The type of MP who probably won't is the likes of this poor redwall Conservative MP mentioned in Dorries' book first elected in 2019.

    '...He stared into his mug of cold tea when I struggled to answer. 'I'm totally and utterly fucked', he said, more to himself as a statement of fact than a comment inviting discussion. 'That's it for me.' He looked close to tears. I knew that he had bought a new house for the family the summer following his election in December 2019. The salary he earnt before he became an MP was less than half of what he was earning now.'
    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Plot-Political-Assassination-Boris-Johnson/dp/0008623422/ref=sr_1_1?qid=1704557243&refinements=p_27:Nadine+Dorries&s=books&sr=1-1&asin=B0CBLTVL5C&revisionId=cc120981&format=1&depth=1

    We're expected to feel sorry for him because the doubling of his salary lasted only five years?
    I know. The devastation! How will he cope?
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,779
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    If a Tory MP can earn more outside the Commons in the law or a company board or as a lobbyist maybe they will jump before pushed if in a marginal seat or if in a safe seat and they were a Minister or had Cabinet potential and the prospect of Opposition doesn't appeal, if not they probably won't.

    The type of MP who probably won't is the likes of this poor redwall Conservative MP mentioned in Dorries' book first elected in 2019.

    '...He stared into his mug of cold tea when I struggled to answer. 'I'm totally and utterly fucked', he said, more to himself as a statement of fact than a comment inviting discussion. 'That's it for me.' He looked close to tears. I knew that he had bought a new house for the family the summer following his election in December 2019. The salary he earnt before he became an MP was less than half of what he was earning now.'
    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Plot-Political-Assassination-Boris-Johnson/dp/0008623422/ref=sr_1_1?qid=1704557243&refinements=p_27:Nadine+Dorries&s=books&sr=1-1&asin=B0CBLTVL5C&revisionId=cc120981&format=1&depth=1

    Its certainly true that MPs are grossly overpaid, and many of them will come back down to Earth with a bump post-defeat.

    However I don't have a violin tiny enough for any sympathy for them, they've reaped the benefits of being overpaid for years and if they lose its because they collectively have not done a good job.

    MPs should be paid much closer to the median salary, not something like the 98th percentile which it is currently.
    MPs are grossly overpaid if you want only slightly above average intellect and career wise candidates as you clearly do.

    If you want the top 1% intellect and career wise to consider a political career however MPs are significantly underpaid. They aren't going to take a pay cut and considerable media and social media intrusion just for the outside chance of a Cabinet post and more likely spending much of the time on the backbenches.

    So we will get more of the MPs we deserve, increasingly party hacks and ex councillors or parliamentary researchers
    Does it ever occur to people who advance this argument that people who make a god out of money are perhaps not the kind of people we should be filling the legislature with?
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,905
    edited January 6
    On the number of Tory female MPs quitting, the proportion above is 8 from 52 (unless I missed any), which is 15.4%.

    That compares with 88 from 352 in toto in the HoC, which is 25%.

    So they are .. so far .. staying on as candidates.

    (Aside: I see that the blackballed Conservatives who are now 'independents' are all men. What about the sex of the ones who have already lost byelection?)
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,893
    edited January 6
    Chris said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    If a Tory MP can earn more outside the Commons in the law or a company board or as a lobbyist maybe they will jump before pushed if in a marginal seat or if in a safe seat and they were a Minister or had Cabinet potential and the prospect of Opposition doesn't appeal, if not they probably won't.

    The type of MP who probably won't is the likes of this poor redwall Conservative MP mentioned in Dorries' book first elected in 2019.

    '...He stared into his mug of cold tea when I struggled to answer. 'I'm totally and utterly fucked', he said, more to himself as a statement of fact than a comment inviting discussion. 'That's it for me.' He looked close to tears. I knew that he had bought a new house for the family the summer following his election in December 2019. The salary he earnt before he became an MP was less than half of what he was earning now.'
    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Plot-Political-Assassination-Boris-Johnson/dp/0008623422/ref=sr_1_1?qid=1704557243&refinements=p_27:Nadine+Dorries&s=books&sr=1-1&asin=B0CBLTVL5C&revisionId=cc120981&format=1&depth=1

    Its certainly true that MPs are grossly overpaid, and many of them will come back down to Earth with a bump post-defeat.

    However I don't have a violin tiny enough for any sympathy for them, they've reaped the benefits of being overpaid for years and if they lose its because they collectively have not done a good job.

    MPs should be paid much closer to the median salary, not something like the 98th percentile which it is currently.
    MPs are grossly overpaid if you want only slightly above average intellect and career wise candidates as you clearly do.

    If you want the top 1% intellect and career wise to consider a political career however MPs are significantly underpaid. They aren't going to take a pay cut and considerable media and social media intrusion just for the outside chance of a Cabinet post and more likely spending much of the time on the backbenches.

    So we will get more of the MPs we deserve, increasingly party hacks and ex councillors or parliamentary researchers
    Does it ever occur to people who advance this argument that people who make a god out of money are perhaps not the kind of people we should be filling the legislature with?
    It doesn't have to be billionaires or multi millionaires, even criminal QCs or partners in commercial law firms, consultants, partners in GP practices, national newspaper columnists and news readers and headmasters of secondary schools earn more than MPs do
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,937
    I can see no appeal in being an MP these days. Endless grief from smart-arses on social media, a 24-hour goldfish bowl, every position you have ever taken on anything played against you by your opponents or more often than not by your colleagues. Poisonous work environment, significant risk of personal threat - all for a salary that is at best modest, at worst W-A-Y adrift of what talented people can earn elsewhere.

    And if you think the current lot are bad - I expect the next crop of Labour MPs to have far more than its fair share of moon-howlers.
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 14,466

    Cri de coeur from SeaShantyIrish2 - Notice - Yours truly notes absence of my own humble nom de PB from the posted list of predictors, despite the fact I have submitted my entry.

    WHY??????????

    AND does this mean that this "election" has been rigged, by some conspiracy of the PB Powers That Be?

    J'accuse!!!!!!!!

    To underline the absurdity of this rank injustice, based on unreliable reports received via my custom-built tin-foil helmet, can reveal that 99.46% of my prognostications are destined to be fulfilled!

    Response(?) by BenPointer (previous thread) - Yeah, sorry about that - I'm afraid I had to disqualify your entry on account of it being totally pants bringing the noble art of PB Prediction into disrepute.

    Rejoinder - WTF?????? Who made YOU the Judge Dread of PB?!?!?

    I hereby appeal to the PB Community-At-Large-or-Small in the name of Natural Justice to overturn this gross abuse of power by the power-mad BP!!!!!!!!!!

    How's that going? ;-)
    Reply worthy of Mad Vlad! Have you NO shame?
    Free the Irish 2!
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,599
    Apple TV’s new Godzilla series: Monarch, Legacy of Monsters, is a hoot

    Completely ridiculous but really well done. Excellent escapism so far (I’m on ep 3)
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,937
    Chris said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    If a Tory MP can earn more outside the Commons in the law or a company board or as a lobbyist maybe they will jump before pushed if in a marginal seat or if in a safe seat and they were a Minister or had Cabinet potential and the prospect of Opposition doesn't appeal, if not they probably won't.

    The type of MP who probably won't is the likes of this poor redwall Conservative MP mentioned in Dorries' book first elected in 2019.

    '...He stared into his mug of cold tea when I struggled to answer. 'I'm totally and utterly fucked', he said, more to himself as a statement of fact than a comment inviting discussion. 'That's it for me.' He looked close to tears. I knew that he had bought a new house for the family the summer following his election in December 2019. The salary he earnt before he became an MP was less than half of what he was earning now.'
    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Plot-Political-Assassination-Boris-Johnson/dp/0008623422/ref=sr_1_1?qid=1704557243&refinements=p_27:Nadine+Dorries&s=books&sr=1-1&asin=B0CBLTVL5C&revisionId=cc120981&format=1&depth=1

    Its certainly true that MPs are grossly overpaid, and many of them will come back down to Earth with a bump post-defeat.

    However I don't have a violin tiny enough for any sympathy for them, they've reaped the benefits of being overpaid for years and if they lose its because they collectively have not done a good job.

    MPs should be paid much closer to the median salary, not something like the 98th percentile which it is currently.
    MPs are grossly overpaid if you want only slightly above average intellect and career wise candidates as you clearly do.

    If you want the top 1% intellect and career wise to consider a political career however MPs are significantly underpaid. They aren't going to take a pay cut and considerable media and social media intrusion just for the outside chance of a Cabinet post and more likely spending much of the time on the backbenches.

    So we will get more of the MPs we deserve, increasingly party hacks and ex councillors or parliamentary researchers
    Does it ever occur to people who advance this argument that people who make a god out of money are perhaps not the kind of people we should be filling the legislature with?
    "Making a god out of money"?

    Jesus. I rest my case.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,805

    Cri de coeur from SeaShantyIrish2 - Notice - Yours truly notes absence of my own humble nom de PB from the posted list of predictors, despite the fact I have submitted my entry.

    WHY??????????

    AND does this mean that this "election" has been rigged, by some conspiracy of the PB Powers That Be?

    J'accuse!!!!!!!!

    To underline the absurdity of this rank injustice, based on unreliable reports received via my custom-built tin-foil helmet, can reveal that 99.46% of my prognostications are destined to be fulfilled!

    Response(?) by BenPointer (previous thread) - Yeah, sorry about that - I'm afraid I had to disqualify your entry on account of it being totally pants bringing the noble art of PB Prediction into disrepute.

    Rejoinder - WTF?????? Who made YOU the Judge Dread of PB?!?!?

    I hereby appeal to the PB Community-At-Large-or-Small in the name of Natural Justice to overturn this gross abuse of power by the power-mad BP!!!!!!!!!!

    How's that going? ;-)
    Reply worthy of Mad Vlad! Have you NO shame?
    Why don't you wonder over to this window and let me explain?
    Jeez. Wander not wonder. Bak to skule 4 me!
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,937
    I would love to have people with the forensic skill of say Ms Cyclefree as an MP. But you'd probably need to pay her c£250k for her to touch the job with a barge pole.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,453

    BIG NEWS here in Seattle - and BAD NEWS for Boeing, certainly contrast with the good news for AIrbus re: Japan crash & burn:

    AP (via Seattle Times) - Alaska Airlines 737 lands safely after a window blows out 3 miles over Oregon

    An Alaska Airlines jetliner blew out a window and a portion of its fuselage shortly after takeoff three miles above Oregon, creating a gaping hole that sucked clothing off a child and forced the pilots to make an emergency landing as its 174 passengers and six crew members donned oxygen masks.

    No one was seriously hurt as the depressurized plane returned safely Friday night to Portland International Airport about 20 minutes after it had departed, but the airline grounded its 65 Boeing 737-9 Max aircraft until they can be inspected. The National Transportation Safety Board said Saturday it will also investigate.

    Passenger Evan Smith said a boy and his mother were sitting in the row where the window blew out and the child’s shirt was sucked off him and out of the plane. . . .

    Alaska Airlines CEO Ben Minicucci said the inspection of the company 737-9 fleet aircraft could take days to complete. They make up a fifth of the company’s 314 planes. It wasn’t immediately known Saturday how that would affect the company’s flight schedule. . . .

    Flight 1282 had taken off from Portland at 5:07 p.m. Friday for a two-hour flight to Ontario, California. About six minutes later, the window and a chunk of the fuselage blew out as the plane was at about 16,000 feet (4.8 kilometers). . . .

    Videos posted by passengers online showed a gaping hole where the window had been and passengers wearing their masks. . . .

    The aircraft involved rolled off the assembly line and received its certification just two months ago, according to online FAA records. The plane had been on 145 flights since entering commercial service on Nov. 11, said FlightRadar24, another tracking service. The flight from Portland was the aircraft’s third of the day.

    Last year, the FAA told pilots to limit use of an anti-ice system on the Max in dry conditions because of concern that inlets around the engines could overheat and break away, possibly striking the plane.

    Max deliveries have been interrupted at times to fix manufacturing flaws. The
    company told airlines in December to inspect the planes for a possible loose bolt in the rudder-control system.

    I have an Alaska flight tomorrow

    For aome reason the plane hasn’t be allocated…
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,394
    HYUFD said:

    ...If you want the top 1% intellect and career wise to consider a political career...

    Unstupid question: do we actually really want that?

    It is desirable that Cabinet Ministers be smart and good. This can be achieved by bringing in external talent (see GOATs[1]). But I think it's counterproductive that MPs be the best of the best. If a policy can't be explained or supported by people of average intelligence, then is it really a good idea?

    [1] https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200910/cmselect/cmpubadm/330/330.pdf

  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 28,419

    Interesting stats on Uni attendance on the previous thread. I think we have a real problem with some people, often white working class, thinking university isn't for people like them. Not going to university is fine, not everyone will go and it's important to have good jobs and career paths for folk who don't, but I think that this attitude means some people are missing out on something that will help them in life and that also means the country is losing out on their skills in graduate jobs. Most minorities are the children or grandchildren of immigrants and often have a more positive view on education as offering a route to get on in life. I suspect they also probably feel like a degree helps to offset remaining labour market discrimination against them, and that they have fewer opportunities through informal/family channels. My daughter attends a state sixth form college in London that is quite challenging to get into, and it is striking how few white kids there are. She said in one class they were trying to figure out if there were any white British kids in the class, there was one.

    Probably the same round here but in some primary school classes, not sixth form. Sometimes it's just demographics, not aspiration.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,779

    Chris said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    If a Tory MP can earn more outside the Commons in the law or a company board or as a lobbyist maybe they will jump before pushed if in a marginal seat or if in a safe seat and they were a Minister or had Cabinet potential and the prospect of Opposition doesn't appeal, if not they probably won't.

    The type of MP who probably won't is the likes of this poor redwall Conservative MP mentioned in Dorries' book first elected in 2019.

    '...He stared into his mug of cold tea when I struggled to answer. 'I'm totally and utterly fucked', he said, more to himself as a statement of fact than a comment inviting discussion. 'That's it for me.' He looked close to tears. I knew that he had bought a new house for the family the summer following his election in December 2019. The salary he earnt before he became an MP was less than half of what he was earning now.'
    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Plot-Political-Assassination-Boris-Johnson/dp/0008623422/ref=sr_1_1?qid=1704557243&refinements=p_27:Nadine+Dorries&s=books&sr=1-1&asin=B0CBLTVL5C&revisionId=cc120981&format=1&depth=1

    Its certainly true that MPs are grossly overpaid, and many of them will come back down to Earth with a bump post-defeat.

    However I don't have a violin tiny enough for any sympathy for them, they've reaped the benefits of being overpaid for years and if they lose its because they collectively have not done a good job.

    MPs should be paid much closer to the median salary, not something like the 98th percentile which it is currently.
    MPs are grossly overpaid if you want only slightly above average intellect and career wise candidates as you clearly do.

    If you want the top 1% intellect and career wise to consider a political career however MPs are significantly underpaid. They aren't going to take a pay cut and considerable media and social media intrusion just for the outside chance of a Cabinet post and more likely spending much of the time on the backbenches.

    So we will get more of the MPs we deserve, increasingly party hacks and ex councillors or parliamentary researchers
    Does it ever occur to people who advance this argument that people who make a god out of money are perhaps not the kind of people we should be filling the legislature with?
    "Making a god out of money"?

    Jesus. I rest my case.
    Or, equally, so absolutely clueless and ignorant about the lives of real people.

    But then again, one has only to look at the antics of our multi-billionaire-class prime minister.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 13,214
    eek said:

    ClippP said:

    They talk about the advantage of incumbency, but I wonder if this is a myth,

    I suspect it could be true when the MP is new, full of enthusiasm and happy to talk about the government's achievements.

    But in the present Parliament, there are no positive Government achievements to be wheeled out to the grateful populace, so everything must be highly depressing for the Tory MPs, be they first time incumbents or old stagers.

    No wonder they are all packing up. After all, they were the ones who made it all happen in the first place.

    I suspect incumbency gives you a 2-5% bounce which means in a tight fought election a few MPs who may otherwise have lost stay because they did a decent job in the last few years (and probably helped someone the vote knows out in same way or other).

    It probably doesn't help much if 25% of voters change their vote and are now voting for the opposition party.
    The power of incumbency is much stronger and important when tactical voting is involved. For Lib Dems being the incumbent means there is no question who is best placed to beat the Tories. I assume the same logic is true for unionist parties in Scotland.

    I’d guess incumbency is also relatively more important in “close-knit” communities with some sense of constituency identity, and far less important in either inner urban seats with itinerant populations, or mixed seats that contain very different social groups.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 22,371
    edited January 6
    HYUFD said:

    Chris said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    If a Tory MP can earn more outside the Commons in the law or a company board or as a lobbyist maybe they will jump before pushed if in a marginal seat or if in a safe seat and they were a Minister or had Cabinet potential and the prospect of Opposition doesn't appeal, if not they probably won't.

    The type of MP who probably won't is the likes of this poor redwall Conservative MP mentioned in Dorries' book first elected in 2019.

    '...He stared into his mug of cold tea when I struggled to answer. 'I'm totally and utterly fucked', he said, more to himself as a statement of fact than a comment inviting discussion. 'That's it for me.' He looked close to tears. I knew that he had bought a new house for the family the summer following his election in December 2019. The salary he earnt before he became an MP was less than half of what he was earning now.'
    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Plot-Political-Assassination-Boris-Johnson/dp/0008623422/ref=sr_1_1?qid=1704557243&refinements=p_27:Nadine+Dorries&s=books&sr=1-1&asin=B0CBLTVL5C&revisionId=cc120981&format=1&depth=1

    Its certainly true that MPs are grossly overpaid, and many of them will come back down to Earth with a bump post-defeat.

    However I don't have a violin tiny enough for any sympathy for them, they've reaped the benefits of being overpaid for years and if they lose its because they collectively have not done a good job.

    MPs should be paid much closer to the median salary, not something like the 98th percentile which it is currently.
    MPs are grossly overpaid if you want only slightly above average intellect and career wise candidates as you clearly do.

    If you want the top 1% intellect and career wise to consider a political career however MPs are significantly underpaid. They aren't going to take a pay cut and considerable media and social media intrusion just for the outside chance of a Cabinet post and more likely spending much of the time on the backbenches.

    So we will get more of the MPs we deserve, increasingly party hacks and ex councillors or parliamentary researchers
    Does it ever occur to people who advance this argument that people who make a god out of money are perhaps not the kind of people we should be filling the legislature with?
    It doesn't have to be billionaires or multi millionaires, even criminal QCs or partners in commercial law firms, consultants, partners in GP practices, national newspaper columnists and news readers and headmasters of secondary schools earn more than MPs do
    And of course so they should too.

    Partners, headmasters etc are at the top of their career - the PM as head politician should be paid comparable to them.

    Entry level backbenchers as junior politicians should be paid comparable to newly qualified teachers, junior doctors etc.

    The fact Councillors are grossly overpaid doesn't mean that we should pay MPs more either, it means we should pay Councillors less too.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,453

    HYUFD said:

    ...

    HYUFD said:

    If a Tory MP can earn more outside the Commons in the law or a company board or as a lobbyist maybe they will jump before pushed if in a marginal seat or if in a safe seat and they were a Minister or had Cabinet potential and the prospect of Opposition doesn't appeal, if not they probably won't.

    The type of MP who probably won't is the likes of this poor redwall Conservative MP mentioned in Dorries' book first elected in 2019.

    '...He stared into his mug of cold tea when I struggled to answer. 'I'm totally and utterly fucked', he said, more to himself as a statement of fact than a comment inviting discussion. 'That's it for me.' He looked close to tears. I knew that he had bought a new house for the family the summer following his election in December 2019. The salary he earnt before he became an MP was less than half of what he was earning now.'
    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Plot-Political-Assassination-Boris-Johnson/dp/0008623422/ref=sr_1_1?qid=1704557243&refinements=p_27:Nadine+Dorries&s=books&sr=1-1&asin=B0CBLTVL5C&revisionId=cc120981&format=1&depth=1

    Back in 1997 my defeated Conservative MP who was quite a decent guy struggled to find swift alternative employment. A guy who worked for me was a Senior Mason and friend to the MP. If I remember correctly they found him a sub-Postmaster role. Oh dear!
    Similarly I know a few Labour MPs defeated in 2010 or 2019 went on benefits for a few months before they found work, often in PR, a think tank or for a charity or union
    Because they're that useless, they can't get a proper job. Fuck 'em. There's plenty of jobs available. Farm work, carers, fast food delivery....jobs that they encourage others to do.
    Absolutely, there's plenty of work available for people out there, so long as they don't view working as beneath them.
    I've got zero sympathy for any of them. The current crop of Tory MPs have ruined the country. We can't build any major infrastructure, can't keep the military working, can't keep the current infrastructure going. We're on our arse. They deserve to share in the hurt they've inflicted on the rest of us.
    I'm comfortably off and healthy. I'd hate to be struggling to make ends meet and have poor health in this country now.
    I keep banging on about the flooding, but it's genuinely a disaster for my area, and I think the sitting MPs around here will suffer at the ballot box.
    That’s a little unfair I think

    These problems are munch longer in the tooth than just 5 or 10 years.

    To say that they have failed to fix the problem that has happened on their watch is 100% accurate

    To blame them entirely for ruining the country allows too many guilty to go uncriticised

    (I would push it back to Blair and his lack of courage plus Brown pushing current spending while signing crap PFI deals for which PFI was never suitable)
  • MJWMJW Posts: 1,737
    HYUFD said:

    MJW said:

    HYUFD said:

    Whether the Tories win an election again within a decade or not depends on how Labour handle the economy. Handle it reasonably well as New Labour did and like post 1997 the Tories can expect to be in Opposition for 10 years or more.

    Handle it poorly as previous Labour governments did and the swingback to the Tories would be much more rapid. Remember after landslide defeat in 1945 the Tories were back in government in 1951, after losing power in 1964 they were back in power in 1970 ie within 10 years. Thatcher of course took the party back to government in 1979, just 5 years after Heath had lost the 1974 general elections to Wilson's Labour

    Obviously anything's possible and one shouldn't rule out a Tory comeback, but it may be very optimistic about the hole the Tories are in with a large swathe of the public. Even a fairly dud Labour government could plausibly lay most of its economic difficulties at the door of the previous government's failures and a wasted decade.

    You can see it in polling where the Tories figures among those of working age are pitiful (and that includes those in the past who'd be moving to vote solidly Tory). It may be in a doom loop whereby its route to recovery is blocked by the fact it's increasingly reliant on the wealthy old, so can't propose growth-friendly policies that irk them. But without doing so cater to a base with diminishing returns and further cement their reputation as the party of economic decline.

    What we may witness is something like 1979, a generational sea change whereby for a lot of people of a certain generation, Labour gained a reputation for economic mismanagement and supporting a broken model it arguably hasn't shaken off with those of that age. With the one era of success coming when Blair and Brown made clear the party had moved away from that.

    The next successful Tory leader may well have to prove that similarly, they're not wedded to the right of the party's failed approach, and their ostensibly liberal wing's weakness in appeasing them.
    Remember by the end of 1980 even Michael Foot led Thatcher in the polls as unemployment rose, indeed Thatcher would probably have lost in 1983 had she not got unemployment as well as inflation down and cut strikes by then and won in the Falklands.

    If economy is poor and frequent strikes and high inflation under a Starmer government even a rightwinger as Tory leader could wing much as the supposedly 'unelectable' Thatcher won as a rightwinger against the 1979 Labour government after only 5 years of the Tories in opposition
    But that's kind of the point. Thatcher won in 83 and then 87 despite some serious difficulties and rough patches, in part because there had been an underlying shift in perceptions that Labour struggled to grasp and run with because a whole tranche of people had lost faith in its ideas.

    Similarly, doubt Starmer's govt will have its issues, but even after a mediocre four or five years the Tories may face an uphill battle because they're simply toxic, like really toxic, to generations whose votes will only grow in importance.

    And there's probably an underestimation of quite how toxic they are. I know people who in terms of income level and general "meh" attitude to politics should be Tory voters. They regard the party with a contempt usually reserved for those residing in high-security medical facilities, having spent the past decade making decisions that have made lives more difficult or just been insulting.

    It's going to take a lot for the Tories to reverse that, in a way that's rather different I think to those conducive to a changing of perceptions or a quick return. Especially given they seem completely unwilling or unable to realise the depth of their predicament with those who aren't retired or getting there.

    If you're under 50, you're roughly as likely to believe the moon landings are faked as plan to vote Tory. That's not a party with a bright future, unless it can address the reasons why and change. Clue: It's part economics, part their flagship political project being catastrophically unpopular in a way few policies ever are.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,890
    edited January 6

    I can see no appeal in being an MP these days. Endless grief from smart-arses on social media, a 24-hour goldfish bowl, every position you have ever taken on anything played against you by your opponents or more often than not by your colleagues. Poisonous work environment, significant risk of personal threat - all for a salary that is at best modest, at worst W-A-Y adrift of what talented people can earn elsewhere.

    And if you think the current lot are bad - I expect the next crop of Labour MPs to have far more than its fair share of moon-howlers.

    I doubt the next intake will be as dreadful as the current bunch. All the stars aligned to generate utter post Brexit dross.

    Mind you there were some absolute stinkers during the Blair years. I really, really despised the sycophant Jeff Hoon. Unfortunately this Parliament produced dozens and dozens of Jeff Hoons.

    I couldn't bear Dobbo and Clarke either
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,779
    HYUFD said:

    Chris said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    If a Tory MP can earn more outside the Commons in the law or a company board or as a lobbyist maybe they will jump before pushed if in a marginal seat or if in a safe seat and they were a Minister or had Cabinet potential and the prospect of Opposition doesn't appeal, if not they probably won't.

    The type of MP who probably won't is the likes of this poor redwall Conservative MP mentioned in Dorries' book first elected in 2019.

    '...He stared into his mug of cold tea when I struggled to answer. 'I'm totally and utterly fucked', he said, more to himself as a statement of fact than a comment inviting discussion. 'That's it for me.' He looked close to tears. I knew that he had bought a new house for the family the summer following his election in December 2019. The salary he earnt before he became an MP was less than half of what he was earning now.'
    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Plot-Political-Assassination-Boris-Johnson/dp/0008623422/ref=sr_1_1?qid=1704557243&refinements=p_27:Nadine+Dorries&s=books&sr=1-1&asin=B0CBLTVL5C&revisionId=cc120981&format=1&depth=1

    Its certainly true that MPs are grossly overpaid, and many of them will come back down to Earth with a bump post-defeat.

    However I don't have a violin tiny enough for any sympathy for them, they've reaped the benefits of being overpaid for years and if they lose its because they collectively have not done a good job.

    MPs should be paid much closer to the median salary, not something like the 98th percentile which it is currently.
    MPs are grossly overpaid if you want only slightly above average intellect and career wise candidates as you clearly do.

    If you want the top 1% intellect and career wise to consider a political career however MPs are significantly underpaid. They aren't going to take a pay cut and considerable media and social media intrusion just for the outside chance of a Cabinet post and more likely spending much of the time on the backbenches.

    So we will get more of the MPs we deserve, increasingly party hacks and ex councillors or parliamentary researchers
    Does it ever occur to people who advance this argument that people who make a god out of money are perhaps not the kind of people we should be filling the legislature with?
    It doesn't have to be billionaires or multi millionaires, even criminal QCs or partners in commercial law firms, consultants, partners in GP practices, national newspaper columnists and news readers and headmasters of secondary schools earn more than MPs do
    Why stop there? You're forgetting professional footballers, rock stars, successful gangsters and contract killers, reality TV stars, top-flight YouTube influencers and those with serious inherited wealth.

    Do you not see what a nonsense it is to try to define the "top 1%" purely in terms of money?
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,645
    Leon said:

    Apple TV’s new Godzilla series: Monarch, Legacy of Monsters, is a hoot

    Completely ridiculous but really well done. Excellent escapism so far (I’m on ep 3)

    I have watched Leave The World Behind and thought it absolute rubbish, poorly written, badly acted, superfluous special effects. Probably better as a stage play.

    Has anyone else watched any 1670? Was it made as a drama documentary?

    Apart from Slow Horses, what else is actually good at the moment?
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559

    BIG NEWS here in Seattle - and BAD NEWS for Boeing, certainly contrast with the good news for AIrbus re: Japan crash & burn:

    AP (via Seattle Times) - Alaska Airlines 737 lands safely after a window blows out 3 miles over Oregon

    An Alaska Airlines jetliner blew out a window and a portion of its fuselage shortly after takeoff three miles above Oregon, creating a gaping hole that sucked clothing off a child and forced the pilots to make an emergency landing as its 174 passengers and six crew members donned oxygen masks.

    No one was seriously hurt as the depressurized plane returned safely Friday night to Portland International Airport about 20 minutes after it had departed, but the airline grounded its 65 Boeing 737-9 Max aircraft until they can be inspected. The National Transportation Safety Board said Saturday it will also investigate.

    Passenger Evan Smith said a boy and his mother were sitting in the row where the window blew out and the child’s shirt was sucked off him and out of the plane. . . .

    Alaska Airlines CEO Ben Minicucci said the inspection of the company 737-9 fleet aircraft could take days to complete. They make up a fifth of the company’s 314 planes. It wasn’t immediately known Saturday how that would affect the company’s flight schedule. . . .

    Flight 1282 had taken off from Portland at 5:07 p.m. Friday for a two-hour flight to Ontario, California. About six minutes later, the window and a chunk of the fuselage blew out as the plane was at about 16,000 feet (4.8 kilometers). . . .

    Videos posted by passengers online showed a gaping hole where the window had been and passengers wearing their masks. . . .

    The aircraft involved rolled off the assembly line and received its certification just two months ago, according to online FAA records. The plane had been on 145 flights since entering commercial service on Nov. 11, said FlightRadar24, another tracking service. The flight from Portland was the aircraft’s third of the day.

    Last year, the FAA told pilots to limit use of an anti-ice system on the Max in dry conditions because of concern that inlets around the engines could overheat and break away, possibly striking the plane.

    Max deliveries have been interrupted at times to fix manufacturing flaws. The
    company told airlines in December to inspect the planes for a possible loose bolt in the rudder-control system.

    I have an Alaska flight tomorrow

    For aome reason the plane hasn’t be allocated…
    Bon voyage, most sincerely.

    My own experiences flying with Alaska have been positive, albeit NOT as thrilling as the flight chronicled in press report.

    Personally reckon Boeing is still suffering from the prop-wash of the beancounters who damn near drove the Lazy B (pet name in Seattle) into the ground, along with a few aircraft.

    BTW, in Puget Sound region, many old-oldtimers still refer to "Boeing's" the way most of us (oldtime or not) call our flagship retailer "Nordstrom's".

    And for same reason - both companies named for the surname of their founder.
  • MJW said:

    HYUFD said:

    MJW said:

    HYUFD said:

    Whether the Tories win an election again within a decade or not depends on how Labour handle the economy. Handle it reasonably well as New Labour did and like post 1997 the Tories can expect to be in Opposition for 10 years or more.

    Handle it poorly as previous Labour governments did and the swingback to the Tories would be much more rapid. Remember after landslide defeat in 1945 the Tories were back in government in 1951, after losing power in 1964 they were back in power in 1970 ie within 10 years. Thatcher of course took the party back to government in 1979, just 5 years after Heath had lost the 1974 general elections to Wilson's Labour

    Obviously anything's possible and one shouldn't rule out a Tory comeback, but it may be very optimistic about the hole the Tories are in with a large swathe of the public. Even a fairly dud Labour government could plausibly lay most of its economic difficulties at the door of the previous government's failures and a wasted decade.

    You can see it in polling where the Tories figures among those of working age are pitiful (and that includes those in the past who'd be moving to vote solidly Tory). It may be in a doom loop whereby its route to recovery is blocked by the fact it's increasingly reliant on the wealthy old, so can't propose growth-friendly policies that irk them. But without doing so cater to a base with diminishing returns and further cement their reputation as the party of economic decline.

    What we may witness is something like 1979, a generational sea change whereby for a lot of people of a certain generation, Labour gained a reputation for economic mismanagement and supporting a broken model it arguably hasn't shaken off with those of that age. With the one era of success coming when Blair and Brown made clear the party had moved away from that.

    The next successful Tory leader may well have to prove that similarly, they're not wedded to the right of the party's failed approach, and their ostensibly liberal wing's weakness in appeasing them.
    Remember by the end of 1980 even Michael Foot led Thatcher in the polls as unemployment rose, indeed Thatcher would probably have lost in 1983 had she not got unemployment as well as inflation down and cut strikes by then and won in the Falklands.

    If economy is poor and frequent strikes and high inflation under a Starmer government even a rightwinger as Tory leader could wing much as the supposedly 'unelectable' Thatcher won as a rightwinger against the 1979 Labour government after only 5 years of the Tories in opposition
    But that's kind of the point. Thatcher won in 83 and then 87 despite some serious difficulties and rough patches, in part because there had been an underlying shift in perceptions that Labour struggled to grasp and run with because a whole tranche of people had lost faith in its ideas.

    Similarly, doubt Starmer's govt will have its issues, but even after a mediocre four or five years the Tories may face an uphill battle because they're simply toxic, like really toxic, to generations whose votes will only grow in importance.

    And there's probably an underestimation of quite how toxic they are. I know people who in terms of income level and general "meh" attitude to politics should be Tory voters. They regard the party with a contempt usually reserved for those residing in high-security medical facilities, having spent the past decade making decisions that have made lives more difficult or just been insulting.

    It's going to take a lot for the Tories to reverse that, in a way that's rather different I think to those conducive to a changing of perceptions or a quick return. Especially given they seem completely unwilling or unable to realise the depth of their predicament with those who aren't retired or getting there.

    If you're under 50, you're roughly as likely to believe the moon landings are faked as plan to vote Tory. That's not a party with a bright future, unless it can address the reasons why and change. Clue: It's part economics, part their flagship political project being catastrophically unpopular in a way few policies ever are.
    Brexit has bugger all to do with it.

    Its the economy housing, stupid.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,590

    HYUFD said:

    ...

    HYUFD said:

    If a Tory MP can earn more outside the Commons in the law or a company board or as a lobbyist maybe they will jump before pushed if in a marginal seat or if in a safe seat and they were a Minister or had Cabinet potential and the prospect of Opposition doesn't appeal, if not they probably won't.

    The type of MP who probably won't is the likes of this poor redwall Conservative MP mentioned in Dorries' book first elected in 2019.

    '...He stared into his mug of cold tea when I struggled to answer. 'I'm totally and utterly fucked', he said, more to himself as a statement of fact than a comment inviting discussion. 'That's it for me.' He looked close to tears. I knew that he had bought a new house for the family the summer following his election in December 2019. The salary he earnt before he became an MP was less than half of what he was earning now.'
    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Plot-Political-Assassination-Boris-Johnson/dp/0008623422/ref=sr_1_1?qid=1704557243&refinements=p_27:Nadine+Dorries&s=books&sr=1-1&asin=B0CBLTVL5C&revisionId=cc120981&format=1&depth=1

    Back in 1997 my defeated Conservative MP who was quite a decent guy struggled to find swift alternative employment. A guy who worked for me was a Senior Mason and friend to the MP. If I remember correctly they found him a sub-Postmaster role. Oh dear!
    Similarly I know a few Labour MPs defeated in 2010 or 2019 went on benefits for a few months before they found work, often in PR, a think tank or for a charity or union
    Because they're that useless, they can't get a proper job. Fuck 'em. There's plenty of jobs available. Farm work, carers, fast food delivery....jobs that they encourage others to do.
    Absolutely, there's plenty of work available for people out there, so long as they don't view working as beneath them.
    I've got zero sympathy for any of them. The current crop of Tory MPs have ruined the country. We can't build any major infrastructure, can't keep the military working, can't keep the current infrastructure going. We're on our arse. They deserve to share in the hurt they've inflicted on the rest of us.
    I'm comfortably off and healthy. I'd hate to be struggling to make ends meet and have poor health in this country now.
    I keep banging on about the flooding, but it's genuinely a disaster for my area, and I think the sitting MPs around here will suffer at the ballot box.
    That’s a little unfair I think

    These problems are munch longer in the tooth than just 5 or 10 years.

    To say that they have failed to fix the problem that has happened on their watch is 100% accurate

    To blame them entirely for ruining the country allows too many guilty to go uncriticised

    (I would push it back to Blair and his lack of courage plus Brown pushing current spending while signing crap PFI deals for which PFI was never suitable)
    I don't think you can go back that far - but there are an awful lot of issues that can be pinned down to decisions made by Osborne to safe cash.

    Granted that does mean you can go back to Brown and say he spent too much but it's the decisions made when spending was cut that have really come back to bite us in the past few years...
  • RattersRatters Posts: 1,111

    I would love to have people with the forensic skill of say Ms Cyclefree as an MP. But you'd probably need to pay her c£250k for her to touch the job with a barge pole.

    Ok the flip side, if you made the MP salary £250k you'd encourage people to do it just for the money if they come from a more modest background. Might get more cases like Sheffield Hallam after Clegg.

    But you're right, there's plenty of well paid people who are not wealthy as such (e.g. no significant family wealth, big mortgage) that are never going to accept a significant pay cut to be an MP. I'm sure plenty would be good MPs, but then I'm sure there's plenty of other people with the potential who aren't in lucrative careers (or have family wealth such that they can afford to slum it, relatively speaking). It's just a matter of finding them that seems to be a struggle right now.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,453

    Leon said:

    Apple TV’s new Godzilla series: Monarch, Legacy of Monsters, is a hoot

    Completely ridiculous but really well done. Excellent escapism so far (I’m on ep 3)

    I have watched Leave The World Behind and thought it absolute rubbish, poorly written, badly acted, superfluous special effects. Probably better as a stage play.

    Has anyone else watched any 1670? Was it made as a drama documentary?

    Apart from Slow Horses, what else is actually good at the moment?
    I tried 1670 (that’s the polish one right?) and thought it painfully unfunny and trite

    I’m enjoying Blacklist although it’s a little silly. James Spader is a great actor though.

  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,905

    I can see no appeal in being an MP these days. Endless grief from smart-arses on social media, a 24-hour goldfish bowl, every position you have ever taken on anything played against you by your opponents or more often than not by your colleagues. Poisonous work environment, significant risk of personal threat - all for a salary that is at best modest, at worst W-A-Y adrift of what talented people can earn elsewhere.

    And if you think the current lot are bad - I expect the next crop of Labour MPs to have far more than its fair share of moon-howlers.

    I doubt the next intake will be as dreadful as the current bunch. All the stars aligned to generate utter post Brexit dross.

    Mind you there were some absolute stinkers during the Blair years. I really, really despised the sycophant Jeff Hoon. Unfortunately this Parliament produced dozens and dozens of Jeff Hoons.

    I couldn't bear Dobbo and Clarke either
    Hoon was a case of glorious nominative determinism.

    Geoff "the complete" Hoon.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,893

    HYUFD said:

    Chris said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    If a Tory MP can earn more outside the Commons in the law or a company board or as a lobbyist maybe they will jump before pushed if in a marginal seat or if in a safe seat and they were a Minister or had Cabinet potential and the prospect of Opposition doesn't appeal, if not they probably won't.

    The type of MP who probably won't is the likes of this poor redwall Conservative MP mentioned in Dorries' book first elected in 2019.

    '...He stared into his mug of cold tea when I struggled to answer. 'I'm totally and utterly fucked', he said, more to himself as a statement of fact than a comment inviting discussion. 'That's it for me.' He looked close to tears. I knew that he had bought a new house for the family the summer following his election in December 2019. The salary he earnt before he became an MP was less than half of what he was earning now.'
    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Plot-Political-Assassination-Boris-Johnson/dp/0008623422/ref=sr_1_1?qid=1704557243&refinements=p_27:Nadine+Dorries&s=books&sr=1-1&asin=B0CBLTVL5C&revisionId=cc120981&format=1&depth=1

    Its certainly true that MPs are grossly overpaid, and many of them will come back down to Earth with a bump post-defeat.

    However I don't have a violin tiny enough for any sympathy for them, they've reaped the benefits of being overpaid for years and if they lose its because they collectively have not done a good job.

    MPs should be paid much closer to the median salary, not something like the 98th percentile which it is currently.
    MPs are grossly overpaid if you want only slightly above average intellect and career wise candidates as you clearly do.

    If you want the top 1% intellect and career wise to consider a political career however MPs are significantly underpaid. They aren't going to take a pay cut and considerable media and social media intrusion just for the outside chance of a Cabinet post and more likely spending much of the time on the backbenches.

    So we will get more of the MPs we deserve, increasingly party hacks and ex councillors or parliamentary researchers
    Does it ever occur to people who advance this argument that people who make a god out of money are perhaps not the kind of people we should be filling the legislature with?
    It doesn't have to be billionaires or multi millionaires, even criminal QCs or partners in commercial law firms, consultants, partners in GP practices, national newspaper columnists and news readers and headmasters of secondary schools earn more than MPs do
    And of course so they should too.

    Partners, headmasters etc are at the top of their career - the PM as head politician should be paid comparable to them.

    Entry level backbenchers as junior politicians should be paid comparable to newly qualified teachers, junior doctors etc.

    The fact Councillors are grossly overpaid doesn't mean that we should pay MPs more either, it means we should pay Councillors less too.
    The average councillor earns less than minimum wage in allowances, it is only at Cabinet level in County or Borough councils you earn significantly more
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    Speaking of perfidious Albionian appropriation of the culture heritage of others, just discovered that you Brits have sunk to copying US TV via cheap knockoff of that beloved American institution - "Jeopardy".

    How the worm has turned! Indeed, the World Turned Upside Down.

    Though do think that Stephen Fry makes a damn good quiz-master.

    BUT does NOT absolve yez from inventing "The Apprentice" as part of sinister trans-Atlantic plot to make Donald Trump POTUS!!!
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,453
    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    ...

    HYUFD said:

    If a Tory MP can earn more outside the Commons in the law or a company board or as a lobbyist maybe they will jump before pushed if in a marginal seat or if in a safe seat and they were a Minister or had Cabinet potential and the prospect of Opposition doesn't appeal, if not they probably won't.

    The type of MP who probably won't is the likes of this poor redwall Conservative MP mentioned in Dorries' book first elected in 2019.

    '...He stared into his mug of cold tea when I struggled to answer. 'I'm totally and utterly fucked', he said, more to himself as a statement of fact than a comment inviting discussion. 'That's it for me.' He looked close to tears. I knew that he had bought a new house for the family the summer following his election in December 2019. The salary he earnt before he became an MP was less than half of what he was earning now.'
    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Plot-Political-Assassination-Boris-Johnson/dp/0008623422/ref=sr_1_1?qid=1704557243&refinements=p_27:Nadine+Dorries&s=books&sr=1-1&asin=B0CBLTVL5C&revisionId=cc120981&format=1&depth=1

    Back in 1997 my defeated Conservative MP who was quite a decent guy struggled to find swift alternative employment. A guy who worked for me was a Senior Mason and friend to the MP. If I remember correctly they found him a sub-Postmaster role. Oh dear!
    Similarly I know a few Labour MPs defeated in 2010 or 2019 went on benefits for a few months before they found work, often in PR, a think tank or for a charity or union
    Because they're that useless, they can't get a proper job. Fuck 'em. There's plenty of jobs available. Farm work, carers, fast food delivery....jobs that they encourage others to do.
    Absolutely, there's plenty of work available for people out there, so long as they don't view working as beneath them.
    I've got zero sympathy for any of them. The current crop of Tory MPs have ruined the country. We can't build any major infrastructure, can't keep the military working, can't keep the current infrastructure going. We're on our arse. They deserve to share in the hurt they've inflicted on the rest of us.
    I'm comfortably off and healthy. I'd hate to be struggling to make ends meet and have poor health in this country now.
    I keep banging on about the flooding, but it's genuinely a disaster for my area, and I think the sitting MPs around here will suffer at the ballot box.
    That’s a little unfair I think

    These problems are munch longer in the tooth than just 5 or 10 years.

    To say that they have failed to fix the problem that has happened on their watch is 100% accurate

    To blame them entirely for ruining the country allows too many guilty to go uncriticised

    (I would push it back to Blair and his lack of courage plus Brown pushing current spending while signing crap PFI deals for which PFI was never suitable)
    I don't think you can go back that far - but there are an awful lot of issues that can be pinned down to decisions made by Osborne to safe cash.

    Granted that does mean you can go back to Brown and say he spent too much but it's the decisions made when spending was cut that have really come back to bite us in the past few years...
    Brown created a lot of the fundamental structural weaknesses that still bedevil us - tax credits and the expansion of PFI (still a huge financial burden) are two good examples. He also fundamentally misread the strength of financial services with his “I’ve abolished boom and bust” nonsense resulting in what (I think) was the worst structural deficit in the G20 post 2008.

    Osborne should have gone for reform but went for penny-pinching instead. Some of the stuff he did was good (like Vickers) but so much was shortsighted Brownian politicking rather than government.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,893
    Chris said:

    HYUFD said:

    Chris said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    If a Tory MP can earn more outside the Commons in the law or a company board or as a lobbyist maybe they will jump before pushed if in a marginal seat or if in a safe seat and they were a Minister or had Cabinet potential and the prospect of Opposition doesn't appeal, if not they probably won't.

    The type of MP who probably won't is the likes of this poor redwall Conservative MP mentioned in Dorries' book first elected in 2019.

    '...He stared into his mug of cold tea when I struggled to answer. 'I'm totally and utterly fucked', he said, more to himself as a statement of fact than a comment inviting discussion. 'That's it for me.' He looked close to tears. I knew that he had bought a new house for the family the summer following his election in December 2019. The salary he earnt before he became an MP was less than half of what he was earning now.'
    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Plot-Political-Assassination-Boris-Johnson/dp/0008623422/ref=sr_1_1?qid=1704557243&refinements=p_27:Nadine+Dorries&s=books&sr=1-1&asin=B0CBLTVL5C&revisionId=cc120981&format=1&depth=1

    Its certainly true that MPs are grossly overpaid, and many of them will come back down to Earth with a bump post-defeat.

    However I don't have a violin tiny enough for any sympathy for them, they've reaped the benefits of being overpaid for years and if they lose its because they collectively have not done a good job.

    MPs should be paid much closer to the median salary, not something like the 98th percentile which it is currently.
    MPs are grossly overpaid if you want only slightly above average intellect and career wise candidates as you clearly do.

    If you want the top 1% intellect and career wise to consider a political career however MPs are significantly underpaid. They aren't going to take a pay cut and considerable media and social media intrusion just for the outside chance of a Cabinet post and more likely spending much of the time on the backbenches.

    So we will get more of the MPs we deserve, increasingly party hacks and ex councillors or parliamentary researchers
    Does it ever occur to people who advance this argument that people who make a god out of money are perhaps not the kind of people we should be filling the legislature with?
    It doesn't have to be billionaires or multi millionaires, even criminal QCs or partners in commercial law firms, consultants, partners in GP practices, national newspaper columnists and news readers and headmasters of secondary schools earn more than MPs do
    Why stop there? You're forgetting professional footballers, rock stars, successful gangsters and contract killers, reality TV stars, top-flight YouTube influencers and those with serious inherited wealth.

    Do you not see what a nonsense it is to try to define the "top 1%" purely in terms of money?
    Not purely, there are plenty of academics or farmers or small businessmen who are not in the top 1% who would make good MPs.

    However on balance the top 1% talent wise are mostly found in the top 1% income wise and we want more of them to consider entering politics and becoming Cabinet Ministers
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    MattW said:

    I can see no appeal in being an MP these days. Endless grief from smart-arses on social media, a 24-hour goldfish bowl, every position you have ever taken on anything played against you by your opponents or more often than not by your colleagues. Poisonous work environment, significant risk of personal threat - all for a salary that is at best modest, at worst W-A-Y adrift of what talented people can earn elsewhere.

    And if you think the current lot are bad - I expect the next crop of Labour MPs to have far more than its fair share of moon-howlers.

    I doubt the next intake will be as dreadful as the current bunch. All the stars aligned to generate utter post Brexit dross.

    Mind you there were some absolute stinkers during the Blair years. I really, really despised the sycophant Jeff Hoon. Unfortunately this Parliament produced dozens and dozens of Jeff Hoons.

    I couldn't bear Dobbo and Clarke either
    Hoon was a case of glorious nominative determinism.

    Geoff "the complete" Hoon.
    Correction (?) - Geoff "the Compleat" Hoon
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,453
    HYUFD said:

    Chris said:

    HYUFD said:

    Chris said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    If a Tory MP can earn more outside the Commons in the law or a company board or as a lobbyist maybe they will jump before pushed if in a marginal seat or if in a safe seat and they were a Minister or had Cabinet potential and the prospect of Opposition doesn't appeal, if not they probably won't.

    The type of MP who probably won't is the likes of this poor redwall Conservative MP mentioned in Dorries' book first elected in 2019.

    '...He stared into his mug of cold tea when I struggled to answer. 'I'm totally and utterly fucked', he said, more to himself as a statement of fact than a comment inviting discussion. 'That's it for me.' He looked close to tears. I knew that he had bought a new house for the family the summer following his election in December 2019. The salary he earnt before he became an MP was less than half of what he was earning now.'
    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Plot-Political-Assassination-Boris-Johnson/dp/0008623422/ref=sr_1_1?qid=1704557243&refinements=p_27:Nadine+Dorries&s=books&sr=1-1&asin=B0CBLTVL5C&revisionId=cc120981&format=1&depth=1

    Its certainly true that MPs are grossly overpaid, and many of them will come back down to Earth with a bump post-defeat.

    However I don't have a violin tiny enough for any sympathy for them, they've reaped the benefits of being overpaid for years and if they lose its because they collectively have not done a good job.

    MPs should be paid much closer to the median salary, not something like the 98th percentile which it is currently.
    MPs are grossly overpaid if you want only slightly above average intellect and career wise candidates as you clearly do.

    If you want the top 1% intellect and career wise to consider a political career however MPs are significantly underpaid. They aren't going to take a pay cut and considerable media and social media intrusion just for the outside chance of a Cabinet post and more likely spending much of the time on the backbenches.

    So we will get more of the MPs we deserve, increasingly party hacks and ex councillors or parliamentary researchers
    Does it ever occur to people who advance this argument that people who make a god out of money are perhaps not the kind of people we should be filling the legislature with?
    It doesn't have to be billionaires or multi millionaires, even criminal QCs or partners in commercial law firms, consultants, partners in GP practices, national newspaper columnists and news readers and headmasters of secondary schools earn more than MPs do
    Why stop there? You're forgetting professional footballers, rock stars, successful gangsters and contract killers, reality TV stars, top-flight YouTube influencers and those with serious inherited wealth.

    Do you not see what a nonsense it is to try to define the "top 1%" purely in terms of money?
    Not purely, there are plenty of academics or farmers or small businessmen who are not in the top 1% who would make good MPs.

    However on balance the top 1% talent wise are mostly found in the top 1% income wise and we want more of them to consider entering politics and becoming Cabinet Ministers
    The skills needed to be successful in politics - or as a cabinet minister - are totally different to the skills needed to succeed in business. Look at Archie Norman as an example
  • Here is my stab at the comp. Hope it’s not too late. Thanks for your good work.
    1. The smallest Labour lead 10%
    2. Date of election 3 October
    3. Party Leaders as now (BORING)
    4. Labour 136 Majority
    5. Haley and Biden
    6. Biden (are you sure?)
    7. Base rate 4.0%
    8. CPI 2.9%
    9. Borrowing £96 billion
    10. Medals 57
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,893
    edited January 6
    MJW said:

    HYUFD said:

    MJW said:

    HYUFD said:

    Whether the Tories win an election again within a decade or not depends on how Labour handle the economy. Handle it reasonably well as New Labour did and like post 1997 the Tories can expect to be in Opposition for 10 years or more.

    Handle it poorly as previous Labour governments did and the swingback to the Tories would be much more rapid. Remember after landslide defeat in 1945 the Tories were back in government in 1951, after losing power in 1964 they were back in power in 1970 ie within 10 years. Thatcher of course took the party back to government in 1979, just 5 years after Heath had lost the 1974 general elections to Wilson's Labour

    Obviously anything's possible and one shouldn't rule out a Tory comeback, but it may be very optimistic about the hole the Tories are in with a large swathe of the public. Even a fairly dud Labour government could plausibly lay most of its economic difficulties at the door of the previous government's failures and a wasted decade.

    You can see it in polling where the Tories figures among those of working age are pitiful (and that includes those in the past who'd be moving to vote solidly Tory). It may be in a doom loop whereby its route to recovery is blocked by the fact it's increasingly reliant on the wealthy old, so can't propose growth-friendly policies that irk them. But without doing so cater to a base with diminishing returns and further cement their reputation as the party of economic decline.

    What we may witness is something like 1979, a generational sea change whereby for a lot of people of a certain generation, Labour gained a reputation for economic mismanagement and supporting a broken model it arguably hasn't shaken off with those of that age. With the one era of success coming when Blair and Brown made clear the party had moved away from that.

    The next successful Tory leader may well have to prove that similarly, they're not wedded to the right of the party's failed approach, and their ostensibly liberal wing's weakness in appeasing them.
    Remember by the end of 1980 even Michael Foot led Thatcher in the polls as unemployment rose, indeed Thatcher would probably have lost in 1983 had she not got unemployment as well as inflation down and cut strikes by then and won in the Falklands.

    If economy is poor and frequent strikes and high inflation under a Starmer government even a rightwinger as Tory leader could wing much as the supposedly 'unelectable' Thatcher won as a rightwinger against the 1979 Labour government after only 5 years of the Tories in opposition
    But that's kind of the point. Thatcher won in 83 and then 87 despite some serious difficulties and rough patches, in part because there had been an underlying shift in perceptions that Labour struggled to grasp and run with because a whole tranche of people had lost faith in its ideas.

    Similarly, doubt Starmer's govt will have its issues, but even after a mediocre four or five years the Tories may face an uphill battle because they're simply toxic, like really toxic, to generations whose votes will only grow in importance.

    And there's probably an underestimation of quite how toxic they are. I know people who in terms of income level and general "meh" attitude to politics should be Tory voters. They regard the party with a contempt usually reserved for those residing in high-security medical facilities, having spent the past decade making decisions that have made lives more difficult or just been insulting.

    It's going to take a lot for the Tories to reverse that, in a way that's rather different I think to those conducive to a changing of perceptions or a quick return. Especially given they seem completely unwilling or unable to realise the depth of their predicament with those who aren't retired or getting there.

    If you're under 50, you're roughly as likely to believe the moon landings are faked as plan to vote Tory. That's not a party with a bright future, unless it can address the reasons why and change. Clue: It's part economics, part their flagship political project being catastrophically unpopular in a way few policies ever are.
    For now, add in rising unemployment, strikes, rising inflation and high interest rates and sluggish growth under a Starmer government and the middle aged swing voters ie those 35-65, would certainly consider voting Tory again even if under 35s voted Labour still.

    Remember in 2019 the median age more voters voted Conservative than Labour was 39 not 59 and most Conservative voters were voting to get Brexit done as most of them had voted for it!
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 5,398

    I would love to have people with the forensic skill of say Ms Cyclefree as an MP. But you'd probably need to pay her c£250k for her to touch the job with a barge pole.

    If you have skills and want to use them for the benefit of society there are lots of jobs going in the public sector. Obviously you have to take a pay cut but that is reflective of the fact you are changing direction to public service and most of the time there is a large pension. However I don't think becoming an MP has much appeal because of the grief that now comes with the work.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,125

    Here is my stab at the comp. Hope it’s not too late. Thanks for your good work.
    1. The smallest Labour lead 10%
    2. Date of election 3 October
    3. Party Leaders as now (BORING)
    4. Labour 136 Majority
    5. Haley and Biden
    6. Biden (are you sure?)
    7. Base rate 4.0%
    8. CPI 2.9%
    9. Borrowing £96 billion
    10. Medals 57

    Another Haley prediction.

    Glad I've got a few £ on her if the PB hive mind is correct.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,621
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Chris said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    If a Tory MP can earn more outside the Commons in the law or a company board or as a lobbyist maybe they will jump before pushed if in a marginal seat or if in a safe seat and they were a Minister or had Cabinet potential and the prospect of Opposition doesn't appeal, if not they probably won't.

    The type of MP who probably won't is the likes of this poor redwall Conservative MP mentioned in Dorries' book first elected in 2019.

    '...He stared into his mug of cold tea when I struggled to answer. 'I'm totally and utterly fucked', he said, more to himself as a statement of fact than a comment inviting discussion. 'That's it for me.' He looked close to tears. I knew that he had bought a new house for the family the summer following his election in December 2019. The salary he earnt before he became an MP was less than half of what he was earning now.'
    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Plot-Political-Assassination-Boris-Johnson/dp/0008623422/ref=sr_1_1?qid=1704557243&refinements=p_27:Nadine+Dorries&s=books&sr=1-1&asin=B0CBLTVL5C&revisionId=cc120981&format=1&depth=1

    Its certainly true that MPs are grossly overpaid, and many of them will come back down to Earth with a bump post-defeat.

    However I don't have a violin tiny enough for any sympathy for them, they've reaped the benefits of being overpaid for years and if they lose its because they collectively have not done a good job.

    MPs should be paid much closer to the median salary, not something like the 98th percentile which it is currently.
    MPs are grossly overpaid if you want only slightly above average intellect and career wise candidates as you clearly do.

    If you want the top 1% intellect and career wise to consider a political career however MPs are significantly underpaid. They aren't going to take a pay cut and considerable media and social media intrusion just for the outside chance of a Cabinet post and more likely spending much of the time on the backbenches.

    So we will get more of the MPs we deserve, increasingly party hacks and ex councillors or parliamentary researchers
    Does it ever occur to people who advance this argument that people who make a god out of money are perhaps not the kind of people we should be filling the legislature with?
    It doesn't have to be billionaires or multi millionaires, even criminal QCs or partners in commercial law firms, consultants, partners in GP practices, national newspaper columnists and news readers and headmasters of secondary schools earn more than MPs do
    And of course so they should too.

    Partners, headmasters etc are at the top of their career - the PM as head politician should be paid comparable to them.

    Entry level backbenchers as junior politicians should be paid comparable to newly qualified teachers, junior doctors etc.

    The fact Councillors are grossly overpaid doesn't mean that we should pay MPs more either, it means we should pay Councillors less too.
    The average councillor earns less than minimum wage in allowances, it is only at Cabinet level in County or Borough councils you earn significantly more
    Good evening

    I remember the time when they were not paid but gave their services to the community entirely voluntarily and they were far better than most councillors elected today
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,893

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Chris said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    If a Tory MP can earn more outside the Commons in the law or a company board or as a lobbyist maybe they will jump before pushed if in a marginal seat or if in a safe seat and they were a Minister or had Cabinet potential and the prospect of Opposition doesn't appeal, if not they probably won't.

    The type of MP who probably won't is the likes of this poor redwall Conservative MP mentioned in Dorries' book first elected in 2019.

    '...He stared into his mug of cold tea when I struggled to answer. 'I'm totally and utterly fucked', he said, more to himself as a statement of fact than a comment inviting discussion. 'That's it for me.' He looked close to tears. I knew that he had bought a new house for the family the summer following his election in December 2019. The salary he earnt before he became an MP was less than half of what he was earning now.'
    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Plot-Political-Assassination-Boris-Johnson/dp/0008623422/ref=sr_1_1?qid=1704557243&refinements=p_27:Nadine+Dorries&s=books&sr=1-1&asin=B0CBLTVL5C&revisionId=cc120981&format=1&depth=1

    Its certainly true that MPs are grossly overpaid, and many of them will come back down to Earth with a bump post-defeat.

    However I don't have a violin tiny enough for any sympathy for them, they've reaped the benefits of being overpaid for years and if they lose its because they collectively have not done a good job.

    MPs should be paid much closer to the median salary, not something like the 98th percentile which it is currently.
    MPs are grossly overpaid if you want only slightly above average intellect and career wise candidates as you clearly do.

    If you want the top 1% intellect and career wise to consider a political career however MPs are significantly underpaid. They aren't going to take a pay cut and considerable media and social media intrusion just for the outside chance of a Cabinet post and more likely spending much of the time on the backbenches.

    So we will get more of the MPs we deserve, increasingly party hacks and ex councillors or parliamentary researchers
    Does it ever occur to people who advance this argument that people who make a god out of money are perhaps not the kind of people we should be filling the legislature with?
    It doesn't have to be billionaires or multi millionaires, even criminal QCs or partners in commercial law firms, consultants, partners in GP practices, national newspaper columnists and news readers and headmasters of secondary schools earn more than MPs do
    And of course so they should too.

    Partners, headmasters etc are at the top of their career - the PM as head politician should be paid comparable to them.

    Entry level backbenchers as junior politicians should be paid comparable to newly qualified teachers, junior doctors etc.

    The fact Councillors are grossly overpaid doesn't mean that we should pay MPs more either, it means we should pay Councillors less too.
    The average councillor earns less than minimum wage in allowances, it is only at Cabinet level in County or Borough councils you earn significantly more
    Good evening

    I remember the time when they were not paid but gave their services to the community entirely voluntarily and they were far better than most councillors elected today
    They still do at Parish and Town council level
  • darkage said:

    I would love to have people with the forensic skill of say Ms Cyclefree as an MP. But you'd probably need to pay her c£250k for her to touch the job with a barge pole.

    If you have skills and want to use them for the benefit of society there are lots of jobs going in the public sector. Obviously you have to take a pay cut but that is reflective of the fact you are changing direction to public service and most of the time there is a large pension. However I don't think becoming an MP has much appeal because of the grief that now comes with the work.
    Absolutely, I 100% believe it is the grief that would come with the role, both external (from the media, opposition, social media) as well as the grief that comes with being a cog within the system (needing to follow the whip, toe the party line etc) that puts the likes of Cyclefree off from wanting to become an MP.

    Monetary concerns are probably far down the line of concerns.
  • Cyclefree said:

    "The Royal Navy has been forced to use LinkedIn to advertise for a Rear-Admiral to be responsible for the nation’s nuclear deterrent amid a growing recruitment crisis.

    No serving sailors are suitable to replace Rear-Admiral Simon Asquith, the current Director of Submarines, and the Navy has turned to the professional networking site to find his successor.
    https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/markets/navy-advertises-on-linkedin-to-hire-nuclear-rear-admiral/ar-AA1mwI4U

    You couldn't make it up.
    "

    Seriously?

    Well now: I can drive to Barrow in 30 minutes, know quite a few people working in BaE and am not going to sexually harass anyone. So .....

    What do you mean, I have no relevant knowledge or experience and get seasick. This is Britain in 2024. Since when have such things mattered at all?
    Also my son is a nuclear graduate so he can tell me about any techie stuff.

    I'd rather not be a Rear-Admiral, though. A Dame Admiral sounds much more fun.

    Also the opportunity to boss a few of the Dura Ace's of the future is too delicious to resist.

    Go for it. I am sure we can rustle up some people on here to give you a reference.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,893
    edited January 6

    HYUFD said:

    Chris said:

    HYUFD said:

    Chris said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    If a Tory MP can earn more outside the Commons in the law or a company board or as a lobbyist maybe they will jump before pushed if in a marginal seat or if in a safe seat and they were a Minister or had Cabinet potential and the prospect of Opposition doesn't appeal, if not they probably won't.

    The type of MP who probably won't is the likes of this poor redwall Conservative MP mentioned in Dorries' book first elected in 2019.

    '...He stared into his mug of cold tea when I struggled to answer. 'I'm totally and utterly fucked', he said, more to himself as a statement of fact than a comment inviting discussion. 'That's it for me.' He looked close to tears. I knew that he had bought a new house for the family the summer following his election in December 2019. The salary he earnt before he became an MP was less than half of what he was earning now.'
    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Plot-Political-Assassination-Boris-Johnson/dp/0008623422/ref=sr_1_1?qid=1704557243&refinements=p_27:Nadine+Dorries&s=books&sr=1-1&asin=B0CBLTVL5C&revisionId=cc120981&format=1&depth=1

    Its certainly true that MPs are grossly overpaid, and many of them will come back down to Earth with a bump post-defeat.

    However I don't have a violin tiny enough for any sympathy for them, they've reaped the benefits of being overpaid for years and if they lose its because they collectively have not done a good job.

    MPs should be paid much closer to the median salary, not something like the 98th percentile which it is currently.
    MPs are grossly overpaid if you want only slightly above average intellect and career wise candidates as you clearly do.

    If you want the top 1% intellect and career wise to consider a political career however MPs are significantly underpaid. They aren't going to take a pay cut and considerable media and social media intrusion just for the outside chance of a Cabinet post and more likely spending much of the time on the backbenches.

    So we will get more of the MPs we deserve, increasingly party hacks and ex councillors or parliamentary researchers
    Does it ever occur to people who advance this argument that people who make a god out of money are perhaps not the kind of people we should be filling the legislature with?
    It doesn't have to be billionaires or multi millionaires, even criminal QCs or partners in commercial law firms, consultants, partners in GP practices, national newspaper columnists and news readers and headmasters of secondary schools earn more than MPs do
    Why stop there? You're forgetting professional footballers, rock stars, successful gangsters and contract killers, reality TV stars, top-flight YouTube influencers and those with serious inherited wealth.

    Do you not see what a nonsense it is to try to define the "top 1%" purely in terms of money?
    Not purely, there are plenty of academics or farmers or small businessmen who are not in the top 1% who would make good MPs.

    However on balance the top 1% talent wise are mostly found in the top 1% income wise and we want more of them to consider entering politics and becoming Cabinet Ministers
    The skills needed to be successful in politics - or as a cabinet minister - are totally different to the skills needed to succeed in business. Look at Archie Norman as an example
    He never was a Cabinet Minister but was a pretty able Shadow Cabinet Minister and probably would have been a good Cabinet Minister under Cameron had he stayed in politics. Hunt ran a business and is now Chancellor.

    In the US of course the Cabinet is separate from the legislature, they appoint from the best in their field for each role
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,621
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Chris said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    If a Tory MP can earn more outside the Commons in the law or a company board or as a lobbyist maybe they will jump before pushed if in a marginal seat or if in a safe seat and they were a Minister or had Cabinet potential and the prospect of Opposition doesn't appeal, if not they probably won't.

    The type of MP who probably won't is the likes of this poor redwall Conservative MP mentioned in Dorries' book first elected in 2019.

    '...He stared into his mug of cold tea when I struggled to answer. 'I'm totally and utterly fucked', he said, more to himself as a statement of fact than a comment inviting discussion. 'That's it for me.' He looked close to tears. I knew that he had bought a new house for the family the summer following his election in December 2019. The salary he earnt before he became an MP was less than half of what he was earning now.'
    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Plot-Political-Assassination-Boris-Johnson/dp/0008623422/ref=sr_1_1?qid=1704557243&refinements=p_27:Nadine+Dorries&s=books&sr=1-1&asin=B0CBLTVL5C&revisionId=cc120981&format=1&depth=1

    Its certainly true that MPs are grossly overpaid, and many of them will come back down to Earth with a bump post-defeat.

    However I don't have a violin tiny enough for any sympathy for them, they've reaped the benefits of being overpaid for years and if they lose its because they collectively have not done a good job.

    MPs should be paid much closer to the median salary, not something like the 98th percentile which it is currently.
    MPs are grossly overpaid if you want only slightly above average intellect and career wise candidates as you clearly do.

    If you want the top 1% intellect and career wise to consider a political career however MPs are significantly underpaid. They aren't going to take a pay cut and considerable media and social media intrusion just for the outside chance of a Cabinet post and more likely spending much of the time on the backbenches.

    So we will get more of the MPs we deserve, increasingly party hacks and ex councillors or parliamentary researchers
    Does it ever occur to people who advance this argument that people who make a god out of money are perhaps not the kind of people we should be filling the legislature with?
    It doesn't have to be billionaires or multi millionaires, even criminal QCs or partners in commercial law firms, consultants, partners in GP practices, national newspaper columnists and news readers and headmasters of secondary schools earn more than MPs do
    And of course so they should too.

    Partners, headmasters etc are at the top of their career - the PM as head politician should be paid comparable to them.

    Entry level backbenchers as junior politicians should be paid comparable to newly qualified teachers, junior doctors etc.

    The fact Councillors are grossly overpaid doesn't mean that we should pay MPs more either, it means we should pay Councillors less too.
    The average councillor earns less than minimum wage in allowances, it is only at Cabinet level in County or Borough councils you earn significantly more
    Good evening

    I remember the time when they were not paid but gave their services to the community entirely voluntarily and they were far better than most councillors elected today
    They still do at Parish and Town council level
    I am referring to the time they did not get allowances or indeed any financial support
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,890

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Chris said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    If a Tory MP can earn more outside the Commons in the law or a company board or as a lobbyist maybe they will jump before pushed if in a marginal seat or if in a safe seat and they were a Minister or had Cabinet potential and the prospect of Opposition doesn't appeal, if not they probably won't.

    The type of MP who probably won't is the likes of this poor redwall Conservative MP mentioned in Dorries' book first elected in 2019.

    '...He stared into his mug of cold tea when I struggled to answer. 'I'm totally and utterly fucked', he said, more to himself as a statement of fact than a comment inviting discussion. 'That's it for me.' He looked close to tears. I knew that he had bought a new house for the family the summer following his election in December 2019. The salary he earnt before he became an MP was less than half of what he was earning now.'
    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Plot-Political-Assassination-Boris-Johnson/dp/0008623422/ref=sr_1_1?qid=1704557243&refinements=p_27:Nadine+Dorries&s=books&sr=1-1&asin=B0CBLTVL5C&revisionId=cc120981&format=1&depth=1

    Its certainly true that MPs are grossly overpaid, and many of them will come back down to Earth with a bump post-defeat.

    However I don't have a violin tiny enough for any sympathy for them, they've reaped the benefits of being overpaid for years and if they lose its because they collectively have not done a good job.

    MPs should be paid much closer to the median salary, not something like the 98th percentile which it is currently.
    MPs are grossly overpaid if you want only slightly above average intellect and career wise candidates as you clearly do.

    If you want the top 1% intellect and career wise to consider a political career however MPs are significantly underpaid. They aren't going to take a pay cut and considerable media and social media intrusion just for the outside chance of a Cabinet post and more likely spending much of the time on the backbenches.

    So we will get more of the MPs we deserve, increasingly party hacks and ex councillors or parliamentary researchers
    Does it ever occur to people who advance this argument that people who make a god out of money are perhaps not the kind of people we should be filling the legislature with?
    It doesn't have to be billionaires or multi millionaires, even criminal QCs or partners in commercial law firms, consultants, partners in GP practices, national newspaper columnists and news readers and headmasters of secondary schools earn more than MPs do
    And of course so they should too.

    Partners, headmasters etc are at the top of their career - the PM as head politician should be paid comparable to them.

    Entry level backbenchers as junior politicians should be paid comparable to newly qualified teachers, junior doctors etc.

    The fact Councillors are grossly overpaid doesn't mean that we should pay MPs more either, it means we should pay Councillors less too.
    The average councillor earns less than minimum wage in allowances, it is only at Cabinet level in County or Borough councils you earn significantly more
    Good evening

    I remember the time when they were not paid but gave their services to the community entirely voluntarily and they were far better than most councillors elected today
    The House chock-a-block full of Jacob Rees
    Moggs. At least Johnson couldn't have
    afforded to live on a tutelage wage.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,599

    Leon said:

    Apple TV’s new Godzilla series: Monarch, Legacy of Monsters, is a hoot

    Completely ridiculous but really well done. Excellent escapism so far (I’m on ep 3)

    I have watched Leave The World Behind and thought it absolute rubbish, poorly written, badly acted, superfluous special effects. Probably better as a stage play.

    Has anyone else watched any 1670? Was it made as a drama documentary?

    Apart from Slow Horses, what else is actually good at the moment?
    Foundation is actually pretty good, and at times brilliant

    Trouble is you have to wade through a ton of slow exposition in Season 1 to get to the good stuff in Season 2, I don’t blame people for bailing out

    But I do strongly recommend Legacy of Monsters if all you want is Jurassic Park style entertainment, with a dash of Japanese flair
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 5,398

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Chris said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    If a Tory MP can earn more outside the Commons in the law or a company board or as a lobbyist maybe they will jump before pushed if in a marginal seat or if in a safe seat and they were a Minister or had Cabinet potential and the prospect of Opposition doesn't appeal, if not they probably won't.

    The type of MP who probably won't is the likes of this poor redwall Conservative MP mentioned in Dorries' book first elected in 2019.

    '...He stared into his mug of cold tea when I struggled to answer. 'I'm totally and utterly fucked', he said, more to himself as a statement of fact than a comment inviting discussion. 'That's it for me.' He looked close to tears. I knew that he had bought a new house for the family the summer following his election in December 2019. The salary he earnt before he became an MP was less than half of what he was earning now.'
    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Plot-Political-Assassination-Boris-Johnson/dp/0008623422/ref=sr_1_1?qid=1704557243&refinements=p_27:Nadine+Dorries&s=books&sr=1-1&asin=B0CBLTVL5C&revisionId=cc120981&format=1&depth=1

    Its certainly true that MPs are grossly overpaid, and many of them will come back down to Earth with a bump post-defeat.

    However I don't have a violin tiny enough for any sympathy for them, they've reaped the benefits of being overpaid for years and if they lose its because they collectively have not done a good job.

    MPs should be paid much closer to the median salary, not something like the 98th percentile which it is currently.
    MPs are grossly overpaid if you want only slightly above average intellect and career wise candidates as you clearly do.

    If you want the top 1% intellect and career wise to consider a political career however MPs are significantly underpaid. They aren't going to take a pay cut and considerable media and social media intrusion just for the outside chance of a Cabinet post and more likely spending much of the time on the backbenches.

    So we will get more of the MPs we deserve, increasingly party hacks and ex councillors or parliamentary researchers
    Does it ever occur to people who advance this argument that people who make a god out of money are perhaps not the kind of people we should be filling the legislature with?
    It doesn't have to be billionaires or multi millionaires, even criminal QCs or partners in commercial law firms, consultants, partners in GP practices, national newspaper columnists and news readers and headmasters of secondary schools earn more than MPs do
    And of course so they should too.

    Partners, headmasters etc are at the top of their career - the PM as head politician should be paid comparable to them.

    Entry level backbenchers as junior politicians should be paid comparable to newly qualified teachers, junior doctors etc.

    The fact Councillors are grossly overpaid doesn't mean that we should pay MPs more either, it means we should pay Councillors less too.
    The average councillor earns less than minimum wage in allowances, it is only at Cabinet level in County or Borough councils you earn significantly more
    Good evening

    I remember the time when they were not paid but gave their services to the community entirely voluntarily and they were far better than most councillors elected today
    The problem with this is that many councils end up as an antiquated social club full of retired people, lots of long meetings and daytime commitments that exclude many people with young families and careers.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,834

    Cyclefree said:

    "The Royal Navy has been forced to use LinkedIn to advertise for a Rear-Admiral to be responsible for the nation’s nuclear deterrent amid a growing recruitment crisis.

    No serving sailors are suitable to replace Rear-Admiral Simon Asquith, the current Director of Submarines, and the Navy has turned to the professional networking site to find his successor.
    https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/markets/navy-advertises-on-linkedin-to-hire-nuclear-rear-admiral/ar-AA1mwI4U

    You couldn't make it up.
    "

    Seriously?

    Well now: I can drive to Barrow in 30 minutes, know quite a few people working in BaE and am not going to sexually harass anyone. So .....

    What do you mean, I have no relevant knowledge or experience and get seasick. This is Britain in 2024. Since when have such things mattered at all?
    Also my son is a nuclear graduate so he can tell me about any techie stuff.

    I'd rather not be a Rear-Admiral, though. A Dame Admiral sounds much more fun.

    Also the opportunity to boss a few of the Dura Ace's of the future is too delicious to resist.

    Go for it. I am sure we can rustle up some people on here to give you a reference.
    What do you need another rear admiral for when there aren't the ships*?
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,472
    Just perusing the identity parade at the top of the thread, and it's pretty hard to conclude that, with a few exceptions, their departure will be any loss to the common good.

    The exception that stands out is, of course, Chris Grayling, who will be a huge loss. His achievements are too short to list, and I reckon his departure will be deeply damaging to voters' views of the Tory Party.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,394

    Speaking of perfidious Albionian appropriation of the culture heritage of others, just discovered that you Brits have sunk to copying US TV via cheap knockoff of that beloved American institution - "Jeopardy".

    How the worm has turned! Indeed, the World Turned Upside Down.

    Though do think that Stephen Fry makes a damn good quiz-master.

    BUT does NOT absolve yez from inventing "The Apprentice" as part of sinister trans-Atlantic plot to make Donald Trump POTUS!!!

    The program "The Apprentice" was invented in the US[1], @SeaShantyIrish2
    Although we did invent television, no matter what Americans are taught in school.

    [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Apprentice
  • MJWMJW Posts: 1,737

    MJW said:

    HYUFD said:

    MJW said:

    HYUFD said:

    Whether the Tories win an election again within a decade or not depends on how Labour handle the economy. Handle it reasonably well as New Labour did and like post 1997 the Tories can expect to be in Opposition for 10 years or more.

    Handle it poorly as previous Labour governments did and the swingback to the Tories would be much more rapid. Remember after landslide defeat in 1945 the Tories were back in government in 1951, after losing power in 1964 they were back in power in 1970 ie within 10 years. Thatcher of course took the party back to government in 1979, just 5 years after Heath had lost the 1974 general elections to Wilson's Labour

    Obviously anything's possible and one shouldn't rule out a Tory comeback, but it may be very optimistic about the hole the Tories are in with a large swathe of the public. Even a fairly dud Labour government could plausibly lay most of its economic difficulties at the door of the previous government's failures and a wasted decade.

    You can see it in polling where the Tories figures among those of working age are pitiful (and that includes those in the past who'd be moving to vote solidly Tory). It may be in a doom loop whereby its route to recovery is blocked by the fact it's increasingly reliant on the wealthy old, so can't propose growth-friendly policies that irk them. But without doing so cater to a base with diminishing returns and further cement their reputation as the party of economic decline.

    What we may witness is something like 1979, a generational sea change whereby for a lot of people of a certain generation, Labour gained a reputation for economic mismanagement and supporting a broken model it arguably hasn't shaken off with those of that age. With the one era of success coming when Blair and Brown made clear the party had moved away from that.

    The next successful Tory leader may well have to prove that similarly, they're not wedded to the right of the party's failed approach, and their ostensibly liberal wing's weakness in appeasing them.
    Remember by the end of 1980 even Michael Foot led Thatcher in the polls as unemployment rose, indeed Thatcher would probably have lost in 1983 had she not got unemployment as well as inflation down and cut strikes by then and won in the Falklands.

    If economy is poor and frequent strikes and high inflation under a Starmer government even a rightwinger as Tory leader could wing much as the supposedly 'unelectable' Thatcher won as a rightwinger against the 1979 Labour government after only 5 years of the Tories in opposition
    But that's kind of the point. Thatcher won in 83 and then 87 despite some serious difficulties and rough patches, in part because there had been an underlying shift in perceptions that Labour struggled to grasp and run with because a whole tranche of people had lost faith in its ideas.

    Similarly, doubt Starmer's govt will have its issues, but even after a mediocre four or five years the Tories may face an uphill battle because they're simply toxic, like really toxic, to generations whose votes will only grow in importance.

    And there's probably an underestimation of quite how toxic they are. I know people who in terms of income level and general "meh" attitude to politics should be Tory voters. They regard the party with a contempt usually reserved for those residing in high-security medical facilities, having spent the past decade making decisions that have made lives more difficult or just been insulting.

    It's going to take a lot for the Tories to reverse that, in a way that's rather different I think to those conducive to a changing of perceptions or a quick return. Especially given they seem completely unwilling or unable to realise the depth of their predicament with those who aren't retired or getting there.

    If you're under 50, you're roughly as likely to believe the moon landings are faked as plan to vote Tory. That's not a party with a bright future, unless it can address the reasons why and change. Clue: It's part economics, part their flagship political project being catastrophically unpopular in a way few policies ever are.
    Brexit has bugger all to do with it.

    Its the economy housing, stupid.
    It's the economy and housing, of course. Plus some of the culture stuff. But it's Brexit too. Sorry if you think it's great but you're in a pretty lonely place if you're under 50. If you look at almost any polling in recent years, it's viewed as a bad mistake. For example, November's polling shows only 11% of those under 24 think it was right to leave (Bad, but possibly to be expected) but only *21%* of those under 50. That's a pretty catastrophic figure.

    OK, so it's not now a first order issue - we left, people think it was the wrong decision. But you can't unscramble an egg. That doesn't mean it's not a problem for perceptions of the Tories. Both directly and in terms of overall narrative. It's going to be very difficult for any party whose biggest 'achievement' is viewed as a complete failure to win over people who think that.

    Plus, it feeds the idea that other failings are down to Tory incompetence/malevolence rather than misfortune. There's a narrative that's started to stick, that Brexit fits in very well with, that the Tories are the party of the selfish old who harmed their children's future to please themselves.

    It's all the things combined together. Of course housing and the economy are the biggest factors. But if it was just that the Tories wouldn't be in the hole they are in with the Under 50s. If it were just Brexit they wouldn't either. Nor would some of the dafter culture war stuff do much damage on its own. But all taken together you have a party that's found a way to alienate most of working age Britain.
  • HYUFD said:

    MJW said:

    HYUFD said:

    MJW said:

    HYUFD said:

    Whether the Tories win an election again within a decade or not depends on how Labour handle the economy. Handle it reasonably well as New Labour did and like post 1997 the Tories can expect to be in Opposition for 10 years or more.

    Handle it poorly as previous Labour governments did and the swingback to the Tories would be much more rapid. Remember after landslide defeat in 1945 the Tories were back in government in 1951, after losing power in 1964 they were back in power in 1970 ie within 10 years. Thatcher of course took the party back to government in 1979, just 5 years after Heath had lost the 1974 general elections to Wilson's Labour

    Obviously anything's possible and one shouldn't rule out a Tory comeback, but it may be very optimistic about the hole the Tories are in with a large swathe of the public. Even a fairly dud Labour government could plausibly lay most of its economic difficulties at the door of the previous government's failures and a wasted decade.

    You can see it in polling where the Tories figures among those of working age are pitiful (and that includes those in the past who'd be moving to vote solidly Tory). It may be in a doom loop whereby its route to recovery is blocked by the fact it's increasingly reliant on the wealthy old, so can't propose growth-friendly policies that irk them. But without doing so cater to a base with diminishing returns and further cement their reputation as the party of economic decline.

    What we may witness is something like 1979, a generational sea change whereby for a lot of people of a certain generation, Labour gained a reputation for economic mismanagement and supporting a broken model it arguably hasn't shaken off with those of that age. With the one era of success coming when Blair and Brown made clear the party had moved away from that.

    The next successful Tory leader may well have to prove that similarly, they're not wedded to the right of the party's failed approach, and their ostensibly liberal wing's weakness in appeasing them.
    Remember by the end of 1980 even Michael Foot led Thatcher in the polls as unemployment rose, indeed Thatcher would probably have lost in 1983 had she not got unemployment as well as inflation down and cut strikes by then and won in the Falklands.

    If economy is poor and frequent strikes and high inflation under a Starmer government even a rightwinger as Tory leader could wing much as the supposedly 'unelectable' Thatcher won as a rightwinger against the 1979 Labour government after only 5 years of the Tories in opposition
    But that's kind of the point. Thatcher won in 83 and then 87 despite some serious difficulties and rough patches, in part because there had been an underlying shift in perceptions that Labour struggled to grasp and run with because a whole tranche of people had lost faith in its ideas.

    Similarly, doubt Starmer's govt will have its issues, but even after a mediocre four or five years the Tories may face an uphill battle because they're simply toxic, like really toxic, to generations whose votes will only grow in importance.

    And there's probably an underestimation of quite how toxic they are. I know people who in terms of income level and general "meh" attitude to politics should be Tory voters. They regard the party with a contempt usually reserved for those residing in high-security medical facilities, having spent the past decade making decisions that have made lives more difficult or just been insulting.

    It's going to take a lot for the Tories to reverse that, in a way that's rather different I think to those conducive to a changing of perceptions or a quick return. Especially given they seem completely unwilling or unable to realise the depth of their predicament with those who aren't retired or getting there.

    If you're under 50, you're roughly as likely to believe the moon landings are faked as plan to vote Tory. That's not a party with a bright future, unless it can address the reasons why and change. Clue: It's part economics, part their flagship political project being catastrophically unpopular in a way few policies ever are.
    For now, add in rising unemployment, strikes, rising inflation and high interest rates and sluggish growth under a Starmer government and the middle aged swing voters ie those 35-65, would certainly consider voting Tory again even if under 35s voted Labour still.

    Remember in 2019 the median age more voters voted Conservative than Labour was 39 not 59 and most Conservative voters were voting to get Brexit done as most of them had voted for it!
    Of course the median age where people were more likely to live in their own home than rent was also around 39 too. Which is shockingly bad and nothing for you to be pleased with.

    Set aside Brexit and one thing that Thatcher, Cameron, Osborne, Johnson and Gove all had in common is they all wanted to get more on the housing ladder, they understood that it is only because of people being able to move on in life that people become more Tory as they age, its not a simple automatic fact of ageing that happens.

    Unfortunately Johnson's moderate housing reforms were defeated by the likes of May, cheered on by the likes of you, and then Sunak has torn up any measures to see more housing built to alleviate the crisis that is causing those in their 20s and 30s to have to rent.

    As a result you and they deserve to be nowhere near office, and do not deserve to be elected.

    Conservativism should be about ensuring as many people as possible can support themselves, paying for their own home, out of their own wages.

    Unfortunately its been taken over by a cargo cult who believe that other people paying for their homes, out of their wages, is a better way to live.

    Until the Conservatives return back to solid Conservative principles, they deserve to be in Opposition.
This discussion has been closed.