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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The leaders’ TV debates: Corporeal looks at the rules

SystemSystem Posts: 12,214
edited February 2014 in General

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The leaders’ TV debates: Corporeal looks at the rules

To start with the relatively easy bit: any debates taking place within the election period would be subject to OFCOM’s broadcasting code. Well mostly. In the interests of full accuracy this part of the code (primarily section 6) “does not apply to BBC services funded by the licence fee, which are regulated on these matters by the BBC trust”.

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • corporealcorporeal Posts: 2,549
    1st above, and 1st below.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,564
    I think the rules are pretty strongly loaded against newcomers, and it may suit Farage better to have a grudge than a walk-on part in some secondary debate. By the same token, I wonder if it's really in the other parties' interest.
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    The "over one/two electoral cycles" seems to be a purposefully designed thing to protect the establishment parties against newcomers. Are they really saying that even if UKIP led in the polls at 40%+ , they should be classed as a minor party and not get a debate slot? It's nonsensical. Whether they're a major party for this elections depends on their standing for this election, not what happened five or ten years ago.
  • I think the rules are pretty strongly loaded against newcomers, and it may suit Farage better to have a grudge than a walk-on part in some secondary debate. By the same token, I wonder if it's really in the other parties' interest.


    I agree with that. The thing that Farage would most liked would be to be excluded.

    Given he's a rubbish debater who loses his temper very easily they should have him there.

  • Socrates said:

    The "over one/two electoral cycles" seems to be a purposefully designed thing to protect the establishment parties against newcomers. Are they really saying that even if UKIP led in the polls at 40%+ , they should be classed as a minor party and not get a debate slot? It's nonsensical. Whether they're a major party for this elections depends on their standing for this election, not what happened five or ten years ago.

    UKIP's best ever share in a Westminster election of any kind was the 27.8% in Eastleigh.

  • SMukeshSMukesh Posts: 1,759
    Is Cameron really that enthusiastic as you post?He is the only one not yet committed to debates as Clegg and Miliband have already committed to having them.And the Tories are the only party claiming that the debates withdrew the Oxygen from the 2010 campaign.

    I personally cannot see a repeat of the 2010 debates as it`s now 2 governing parties against 1 and one of them is having very poor numbers too.Someone suggested one Cam vs Miliband,two Cam vs Miliband vs Clegg and three Cam vs Miliband vs Clegg vs Farage.That seems fairer and more reflective of where things stand at the moment.
  • corporealcorporeal Posts: 2,549
    Socrates said:

    The "over one/two electoral cycles" seems to be a purposefully designed thing to protect the establishment parties against newcomers. Are they really saying that even if UKIP led in the polls at 40%+ , they should be classed as a minor party and not get a debate slot? It's nonsensical. Whether they're a major party for this elections depends on their standing for this election, not what happened five or ten years ago.

    Socrates, the criteria aren't explicit as to it being a list of tick-boxes that all have to be fulfilled. Just what they take into account. I extrapolated that if the current polling levels weren't sufficient for UKIP at the locals they wouldn't be at the General Election.

    It doesn't mean that no polling level would get UKIP in.
  • corporealcorporeal Posts: 2,549
    (I have about 100 tabs open in an internet window on media guidelines).
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    Tymoshenko: "sure Ukraine will join EU"
  • GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071

    Socrates said:

    The "over one/two electoral cycles" seems to be a purposefully designed thing to protect the establishment parties against newcomers. Are they really saying that even if UKIP led in the polls at 40%+ , they should be classed as a minor party and not get a debate slot? It's nonsensical. Whether they're a major party for this elections depends on their standing for this election, not what happened five or ten years ago.

    UKIP's best ever share in a Westminster election of any kind was the 27.8% in Eastleigh.

    I think you overlooked that "if" and "should" were in the comment by Socrates, not "as" and "are".

  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,498
    RodCrosby said:

    Tymoshenko: "sure Ukraine will join EU"

    Wonder if it will be as impossible for them as it is supposed to be for Scotland.
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,723
    edited February 2014


    I agree with that. The thing that Farage would most liked would be to be excluded.

    Given he's a rubbish debater who loses his temper very easily they should have him there.

    Doesn't matter how bad a debater he is - if he's there he gets into the minds of voters who will then consider voting UKIP.

    If he's not there then for the whole campaign UKIP is going to get almost zero publicity - and if that happens UKIP is guaranteed to suffer in the final outcome.
  • tpfkartpfkar Posts: 1,565
    edited February 2014
    If UKIP are denied major party status, that suits them well as it gives them a chance to moan about the establishment pitching against them, and then blame an underwhelming result on that. Farage could have some fun with the Tories on Europe and other issues and I can't see Cameron wanting him there. LDs quite happy as Clegg will fancy his chances against Farage, and UKIP taking more Tory votes is very welcome.

    So same as last time I reckon, but it will take a public empty chair threat to get Cameron toturn up.
  • Remember that if the rules which the regulators (i.e. OfCom and the BBC Trust) are applying are unlawful, an aggrieved party can seek to have them quashed by the High Court. As was discussed a while back, the SNP's failed motion for an interlocutor ad interim to restrain the broadcast of one of the debates in Scotland in 2010 is unlikely to be a guide to how the English courts would entertain a final challenge to the rules or their application ahead of the 2015 election.
  • Socrates said:

    The "over one/two electoral cycles" seems to be a purposefully designed thing to protect the establishment parties against newcomers. Are they really saying that even if UKIP led in the polls at 40%+ , they should be classed as a minor party and not get a debate slot? It's nonsensical. Whether they're a major party for this elections depends on their standing for this election, not what happened five or ten years ago.

    UKIP's best ever share in a Westminster election of any kind was the 27.8% in Eastleigh.

    Quite right Mike. Despite vast amounts of free media publicity, of the kind unheard of before for a minor party, UKIP have only manage to cobble together a few unconvincing second places in by-elections. Even George Galloway did better. As for people bleating about UKIP's polling - since when did we settle questions of national significance on the say so of a few thousand polling respondents? Opinion polls are but travesties of democracy. UKIP should be left on the fringes until they prove themselves worthy of greater consideration.
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    Tymoshenko approaching Independence Square.
  • corporealcorporeal Posts: 2,549

    Remember that if the rules which the regulators (i.e. OfCom and the BBC Trust) are applying are unlawful, an aggrieved party can seek to have them quashed by the High Court. As was discussed a while back, the SNP's failed motion for an interlocutor ad interim to restrain the broadcast of one of the debates in Scotland in 2010 is unlikely to be a guide to how the English courts would entertain a final challenge to the rules or their application ahead of the 2015 election.

    I will be honest Limt, I ran out of steam before I started digging through the Communications Act 2003 and BBC charter. OFCOM run consultations before each elections and the electoral commission input into that.

    Because of that I'd be skeptical of any legal challenge being mounted.
  • corporealcorporeal Posts: 2,549
    As a side note, I think people are over-thinking what parties should want to be there etc.

    All the parties want themselves there, and as few others as possible. The spotlight is valuable.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    edited February 2014
    Russia Today showing that Party of The Regions is declaring local control of the Eastern regions, meeting in Kharkiv. Claiming support of Odessa and Crimea as well as the Eastern cities. RT usually follows the Moscow line pretty closely, so maybe this is what they want.

    RodCrosby said:

    Tymoshenko approaching Independence Square.

  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,723
    If UKIP want to challenge OFCOM rules surely they should be doing that right now?

    If they go to the High Court in March 2015 then it'll be too late because even if they win it'll get appealed and there will then just be a row / chaos and the debates won't happen at all.

    If UKIP is going to get in it needs to be crystal clear that they are allowed in well, well in advance.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,534

    Socrates said:

    The "over one/two electoral cycles" seems to be a purposefully designed thing to protect the establishment parties against newcomers. Are they really saying that even if UKIP led in the polls at 40%+ , they should be classed as a minor party and not get a debate slot? It's nonsensical. Whether they're a major party for this elections depends on their standing for this election, not what happened five or ten years ago.

    UKIP's best ever share in a Westminster election of any kind was the 27.8% in Eastleigh.

    Quite right Mike. Despite vast amounts of free media publicity, of the kind unheard of before for a minor party, UKIP have only manage to cobble together a few unconvincing second places in by-elections. Even George Galloway did better. As for people bleating about UKIP's polling - since when did we settle questions of national significance on the say so of a few thousand polling respondents? Opinion polls are but travesties of democracy. UKIP should be left on the fringes until they prove themselves worthy of greater consideration.
    UKIP will likely come first or second in the euros, and outpolled the Lib Dems in the locals.

  • Socrates said:

    The "over one/two electoral cycles" seems to be a purposefully designed thing to protect the establishment parties against newcomers. Are they really saying that even if UKIP led in the polls at 40%+ , they should be classed as a minor party and not get a debate slot? It's nonsensical. Whether they're a major party for this elections depends on their standing for this election, not what happened five or ten years ago.

    UKIP's best ever share in a Westminster election of any kind was the 27.8% in Eastleigh.

    Quite right Mike. Despite vast amounts of free media publicity, of the kind unheard of before for a minor party, UKIP have only manage to cobble together a few unconvincing second places in by-elections. Even George Galloway did better. As for people bleating about UKIP's polling - since when did we settle questions of national significance on the say so of a few thousand polling respondents? Opinion polls are but travesties of democracy. UKIP should be left on the fringes until they prove themselves worthy of greater consideration.
    Eastleigh was unconvincing? Think I can detect some worried Tories.
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322

    As for people bleating about UKIP's polling - since when did we settle questions of national significance on the say so of a few thousand polling respondents?

    I'm pretty sure half of Cameron's policies are accepted or rejected on the say so of a few thousand polling respondents. I don't even get the point you're making. Are you implying that the polls are an inaccurate reading of public opinion, and thus should not be considered? If not, why does the sample size matter?

    Ultimately, what we have here is a belief that new parties should not be allowed an equal voice with parties they are above in the polls, just because they're new. This is a de facto political bias in favour of establishment views and in favour of institutional conservatism. The whole value of a free media is that it gives space to views that stand up to orthodoxy, not do deny them oxygen until they're a fixed part of the political establishment.
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    edited February 2014

    Russia Today showing that Party of The Regions is declaring local control of the Eastern regions, meeting in Kharkiv. Claiming support of Odessa and Crimea as well as the Eastern cities. RT usually follows the Moscow line pretty closely, so maybe this is what they want.

    RodCrosby said:

    Tymoshenko approaching Independence Square.

    It's looking more and more like a de facto partition.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    I do not think that Barosso and Van Rompuy ruled out Scottish membership, merely pointed out that it was not automatic and would require agreement of the 28 countries. Much the same goes for Ukraine I expect. They would need to meet accession requirements in terms of democracy etc, so it must be a ten year project as a minimum, even if the country was partitioned.
    malcolmg said:

    RodCrosby said:

    Tymoshenko: "sure Ukraine will join EU"

    Wonder if it will be as impossible for them as it is supposed to be for Scotland.
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    Sean_F said:

    Socrates said:

    The "over one/two electoral cycles" seems to be a purposefully designed thing to protect the establishment parties against newcomers. Are they really saying that even if UKIP led in the polls at 40%+ , they should be classed as a minor party and not get a debate slot? It's nonsensical. Whether they're a major party for this elections depends on their standing for this election, not what happened five or ten years ago.

    UKIP's best ever share in a Westminster election of any kind was the 27.8% in Eastleigh.

    Quite right Mike. Despite vast amounts of free media publicity, of the kind unheard of before for a minor party, UKIP have only manage to cobble together a few unconvincing second places in by-elections. Even George Galloway did better. As for people bleating about UKIP's polling - since when did we settle questions of national significance on the say so of a few thousand polling respondents? Opinion polls are but travesties of democracy. UKIP should be left on the fringes until they prove themselves worthy of greater consideration.
    UKIP will likely come first or second in the euros, and outpolled the Lib Dems in the locals.

    Not to mention are outpolling the Lib Dems in general election polling. The only reason the Lib Dems will overtake UKIP is because OFCOM and the BBC Trust decide to use their pro-establishment bias to give a greater platform to the Lib Dems, based on how they did five years ago in very different circumstances.
  • Socrates said:

    Are you implying that the polls are an inaccurate reading of public opinion, and thus should not be considered?

    Yes. If we adopted that measure Nick Clegg would now be prime minister.
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    Kiev: 'Ultra-right' vow to go on protesting...
  • I do not think that Barosso and Van Rompuy ruled out Scottish membership, merely pointed out that it was not automatic

    'extremely difficult, if not impossible'

    Must have lost something in translation.

  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322

    Socrates said:

    Are you implying that the polls are an inaccurate reading of public opinion, and thus should not be considered?

    Yes. If we adopted that measure Nick Clegg would now be prime minister.
    Errr, no. On the eve of the election, YouGov's poll was Tories 35%, Labour 30%, the Lib Dems 24%. The election results were Tories 36%, Labour 29%, Lib Dems 23%.
  • Sean_F said:

    Socrates said:

    The "over one/two electoral cycles" seems to be a purposefully designed thing to protect the establishment parties against newcomers. Are they really saying that even if UKIP led in the polls at 40%+ , they should be classed as a minor party and not get a debate slot? It's nonsensical. Whether they're a major party for this elections depends on their standing for this election, not what happened five or ten years ago.

    UKIP's best ever share in a Westminster election of any kind was the 27.8% in Eastleigh.

    Quite right Mike. Despite vast amounts of free media publicity, of the kind unheard of before for a minor party, UKIP have only manage to cobble together a few unconvincing second places in by-elections. Even George Galloway did better. As for people bleating about UKIP's polling - since when did we settle questions of national significance on the say so of a few thousand polling respondents? Opinion polls are but travesties of democracy. UKIP should be left on the fringes until they prove themselves worthy of greater consideration.
    UKIP will likely come first or second in the euros, and outpolled the Lib Dems in the locals.

    In almost all elections in the UK it is winning seats that matter not aggregate national vote shares.

  • corporealcorporeal Posts: 2,549
    MikeL said:

    If UKIP want to challenge OFCOM rules surely they should be doing that right now?

    If they go to the High Court in March 2015 then it'll be too late because even if they win it'll get appealed and there will then just be a row / chaos and the debates won't happen at all.

    If UKIP is going to get in it needs to be crystal clear that they are allowed in well, well in advance.

    I don't know if they can.

    The consultation I linked to is for the 2014 May elections, and was published in October 2013. I'd assume a similar timetable for the 2015 General election means UKIP's first stage would be to engage with that consultation (I can't see how they could make a challenge before that) and then challenge afterwards if unhappy.

    There was an earlier more general consultation in March 2013, which shows a range of views to say the least. Some broadcasters opposing having a list of major parties at all etc. In the list of respondents UKIP don't appear.

    http://stakeholders.ofcom.org.uk/binaries/consultations/ppbs/statement/statement.pdf

    I don't know if they have responded to the recent consultation, but if they haven't they need to.
  • Socrates said:

    Socrates said:

    Are you implying that the polls are an inaccurate reading of public opinion, and thus should not be considered?

    Yes. If we adopted that measure Nick Clegg would now be prime minister.
    Errr, no. On the eve of the election, YouGov's poll was Tories 35%, Labour 30%, the Lib Dems 24%. The election results were Tories 36%, Labour 29%, Lib Dems 23%.
    YouGov's final poll in 2010 with a sample of 7,000 had CON 35, LAB 28, LD 28.

    Polls are based on GBs shares not UK ones. The GB totals for comparison are CON 37, LAB 29.7, LD 23.6

  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    Tymoshenko on stage in a wheelchair.
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322

    Sean_F said:

    Socrates said:

    The "over one/two electoral cycles" seems to be a purposefully designed thing to protect the establishment parties against newcomers. Are they really saying that even if UKIP led in the polls at 40%+ , they should be classed as a minor party and not get a debate slot? It's nonsensical. Whether they're a major party for this elections depends on their standing for this election, not what happened five or ten years ago.

    UKIP's best ever share in a Westminster election of any kind was the 27.8% in Eastleigh.

    Quite right Mike. Despite vast amounts of free media publicity, of the kind unheard of before for a minor party, UKIP have only manage to cobble together a few unconvincing second places in by-elections. Even George Galloway did better. As for people bleating about UKIP's polling - since when did we settle questions of national significance on the say so of a few thousand polling respondents? Opinion polls are but travesties of democracy. UKIP should be left on the fringes until they prove themselves worthy of greater consideration.
    UKIP will likely come first or second in the euros, and outpolled the Lib Dems in the locals.

    In almost all elections in the UK it is winning seats that matter not aggregate national vote shares.

    A strange view from a party that has consistently supported proportional representation, on the basis that it is votes that have more legitimacy than seat allocation in FPTP, and also chooses its coalition partners on who gets the most votes, on the same basis.
  • corporealcorporeal Posts: 2,549
    Socrates said:

    Sean_F said:

    Socrates said:

    The "over one/two electoral cycles" seems to be a purposefully designed thing to protect the establishment parties against newcomers. Are they really saying that even if UKIP led in the polls at 40%+ , they should be classed as a minor party and not get a debate slot? It's nonsensical. Whether they're a major party for this elections depends on their standing for this election, not what happened five or ten years ago.

    UKIP's best ever share in a Westminster election of any kind was the 27.8% in Eastleigh.

    Quite right Mike. Despite vast amounts of free media publicity, of the kind unheard of before for a minor party, UKIP have only manage to cobble together a few unconvincing second places in by-elections. Even George Galloway did better. As for people bleating about UKIP's polling - since when did we settle questions of national significance on the say so of a few thousand polling respondents? Opinion polls are but travesties of democracy. UKIP should be left on the fringes until they prove themselves worthy of greater consideration.
    UKIP will likely come first or second in the euros, and outpolled the Lib Dems in the locals.

    In almost all elections in the UK it is winning seats that matter not aggregate national vote shares.

    A strange view from a party that has consistently supported proportional representation, on the basis that it is votes that have more legitimacy than seat allocation in FPTP, and also chooses its coalition partners on who gets the most votes, on the same basis.
    How it is, and how we (Lib Dems) would like it to be are very different things Socrates.
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    Ukrainian border guards prevent Vitaly Zakharchenko, Interior Minister in Yanukovych's government, from fleeing the country, Interfax Ukraine reports
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322

    Socrates said:

    Socrates said:

    Are you implying that the polls are an inaccurate reading of public opinion, and thus should not be considered?

    Yes. If we adopted that measure Nick Clegg would now be prime minister.
    Errr, no. On the eve of the election, YouGov's poll was Tories 35%, Labour 30%, the Lib Dems 24%. The election results were Tories 36%, Labour 29%, Lib Dems 23%.
    YouGov's final poll in 2010 with a sample of 7,000 had CON 35, LAB 28, LD 28.

    Polls are based on GBs shares not UK ones. The GB totals for comparison are CON 37, LAB 29.7, LD 23.6

    Are you sure you're not missing one? The graph on Wikipedia shows one further poll after the one you mention:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_United_Kingdom_general_election,_2010
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    corporeal said:

    Socrates said:

    Sean_F said:

    Socrates said:

    The "over one/two electoral cycles" seems to be a purposefully designed thing to protect the establishment parties against newcomers. Are they really saying that even if UKIP led in the polls at 40%+ , they should be classed as a minor party and not get a debate slot? It's nonsensical. Whether they're a major party for this elections depends on their standing for this election, not what happened five or ten years ago.

    UKIP's best ever share in a Westminster election of any kind was the 27.8% in Eastleigh.

    Quite right Mike. Despite vast amounts of free media publicity, of the kind unheard of before for a minor party, UKIP have only manage to cobble together a few unconvincing second places in by-elections. Even George Galloway did better. As for people bleating about UKIP's polling - since when did we settle questions of national significance on the say so of a few thousand polling respondents? Opinion polls are but travesties of democracy. UKIP should be left on the fringes until they prove themselves worthy of greater consideration.
    UKIP will likely come first or second in the euros, and outpolled the Lib Dems in the locals.

    In almost all elections in the UK it is winning seats that matter not aggregate national vote shares.

    A strange view from a party that has consistently supported proportional representation, on the basis that it is votes that have more legitimacy than seat allocation in FPTP, and also chooses its coalition partners on who gets the most votes, on the same basis.
    How it is, and how we (Lib Dems) would like it to be are very different things Socrates.
    Surely if the popular vote is what matters in choosing coalition partners, it should be what matters in choosing debate participants?
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    RodCrosby said:

    Ukrainian border guards prevent Vitaly Zakharchenko, Interior Minister in Yanukovych's government, from fleeing the country, Interfax Ukraine reports

    A modern Flight to Varennes!
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,989
    Evening all :)

    Remarkable events in Ukraine today - it remains to be seen whether despite all the talk of unity, the de facto division of Ukraine is already under way. I was listening to analysis on LBC this morning - it is far more complex than often portrayed. The Opposition aren't all angels and the pro-Russian groupings aren't all the bad guys. What has happened has been the overthrow of a venal leader in Yanukovych but some of those involved are arguably as distasteful given open anti-Semitism and neo-fascism.

    Areas like the Crimea (never historically part of the Ukraine) retain through settlement strong ties to Russia and that has to be respected and accepted by whatever new power emerges in Kiev.

    On-topic, I'm not too concerned about Nigel Farage or UKIP joining the debate. There's no point trying to derive a consistent approach because someone will always complain. It may seem semantic but it's important to note the debates are about the election not about being Prime Minister. There are realistically only two possible Prime Ministers but the election has a plethora of competing parties and while I vaguely recall a limit on the number of candidates to trigger an election broadcast, the parties contesting all the seats seem the logical choice for inclusion (with some kind of secondary qualification on polling or representation to prevent a wealthy man putting up candidates to get a chair).
  • MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699
    Socrates said:

    Socrates said:

    Socrates said:

    Are you implying that the polls are an inaccurate reading of public opinion, and thus should not be considered?

    Yes. If we adopted that measure Nick Clegg would now be prime minister.
    Errr, no. On the eve of the election, YouGov's poll was Tories 35%, Labour 30%, the Lib Dems 24%. The election results were Tories 36%, Labour 29%, Lib Dems 23%.
    YouGov's final poll in 2010 with a sample of 7,000 had CON 35, LAB 28, LD 28.

    Polls are based on GBs shares not UK ones. The GB totals for comparison are CON 37, LAB 29.7, LD 23.6

    Are you sure you're not missing one? The graph on Wikipedia shows one further poll after the one you mention:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_United_Kingdom_general_election,_2010
    Wiki graph is wrong see the polls listed on ukpollingreport .
  • corporealcorporeal Posts: 2,549
    Socrates said:

    corporeal said:

    Socrates said:

    Sean_F said:

    Socrates said:

    The "over one/two electoral cycles" seems to be a purposefully designed thing to protect the establishment parties against newcomers. Are they really saying that even if UKIP led in the polls at 40%+ , they should be classed as a minor party and not get a debate slot? It's nonsensical. Whether they're a major party for this elections depends on their standing for this election, not what happened five or ten years ago.

    UKIP's best ever share in a Westminster election of any kind was the 27.8% in Eastleigh.

    Quite right Mike. Despite vast amounts of free media publicity, of the kind unheard of before for a minor party, UKIP have only manage to cobble together a few unconvincing second places in by-elections. Even George Galloway did better. As for people bleating about UKIP's polling - since when did we settle questions of national significance on the say so of a few thousand polling respondents? Opinion polls are but travesties of democracy. UKIP should be left on the fringes until they prove themselves worthy of greater consideration.
    UKIP will likely come first or second in the euros, and outpolled the Lib Dems in the locals.

    In almost all elections in the UK it is winning seats that matter not aggregate national vote shares.

    A strange view from a party that has consistently supported proportional representation, on the basis that it is votes that have more legitimacy than seat allocation in FPTP, and also chooses its coalition partners on who gets the most votes, on the same basis.
    How it is, and how we (Lib Dems) would like it to be are very different things Socrates.
    Surely if the popular vote is what matters in choosing coalition partners, it should be what matters in choosing debate participants?
    Again, the difference between what the Lib Dems consider most important, and what others consider most important (should be noted popular vote is part of both OFCOM and BBC's criteria).
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Some good maps here of the likely partition if it works out that way:

    http://m.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2013/12/09/this-one-map-helps-explain-ukraines-protests/

    As I recall, Southern Ukraine was only taken from the Ottomans and Tartars in the 18th century, and large land grants were made to Russians who often brought their serfs with them from other regions of the Russian Empire.

    It does also sound as if a number of the protesters are from far right groupings.


    RodCrosby said:

    Russia Today showing that Party of The Regions is declaring local control of the Eastern regions, meeting in Kharkiv. Claiming support of Odessa and Crimea as well as the Eastern cities. RT usually follows the Moscow line pretty closely, so maybe this is what they want.

    RodCrosby said:

    Tymoshenko approaching Independence Square.

    It's looking more and more like a de facto partition.
  • Ishmael_XIshmael_X Posts: 3,664
    MikeL said:

    If UKIP want to challenge OFCOM rules surely they should be doing that right now?

    If they go to the High Court in March 2015 then it'll be too late because even if they win it'll get appealed and there will then just be a row / chaos and the debates won't happen at all.

    If UKIP is going to get in it needs to be crystal clear that they are allowed in well, well in advance.

    It is quite difficult to bring proceedings on the basis of something which might happen in the future. And appeals can be expedited.

  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322

    Socrates said:

    Socrates said:

    Socrates said:

    Are you implying that the polls are an inaccurate reading of public opinion, and thus should not be considered?

    Yes. If we adopted that measure Nick Clegg would now be prime minister.
    Errr, no. On the eve of the election, YouGov's poll was Tories 35%, Labour 30%, the Lib Dems 24%. The election results were Tories 36%, Labour 29%, Lib Dems 23%.
    YouGov's final poll in 2010 with a sample of 7,000 had CON 35, LAB 28, LD 28.

    Polls are based on GBs shares not UK ones. The GB totals for comparison are CON 37, LAB 29.7, LD 23.6

    Are you sure you're not missing one? The graph on Wikipedia shows one further poll after the one you mention:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_United_Kingdom_general_election,_2010
    Wiki graph is wrong see the polls listed on ukpollingreport .
    I stand corrected. Still, it's only five points out.
  • Y0kelY0kel Posts: 2,307

    Russia Today showing that Party of The Regions is declaring local control of the Eastern regions, meeting in Kharkiv. Claiming support of Odessa and Crimea as well as the Eastern cities. RT usually follows the Moscow line pretty closely, so maybe this is what they want.

    The Crimea is a likely incident point should Russia decide to get involved though one look at the map will tell you that naval facilities or not it'll be a tricky place for a Russian induced separation to sustain. The position of those Russian naval forces on Ukrainian territory shouldn't be over-estimated. Though Sevastapol is considered its main facility the Russians had shifted Black Sea assets and activity out of there in recent years to a home port so they could walk away if they really wanted.

    As a political lever though its deadly. Its got the highest associations with the old Russia and Soviet Union in its populous. For many its still old Soviet sovereign territory.

    On the surface its ditto for Kharkiv and the associated administrative region it sits at the centre of in terms of the potential level of trouble. Certainly there have been rumours that's where those associated with the President were going to kick off the political resistance against the whirlwind happening in the west.

    It would rate differently that the Crimea though. It has a strong Ukrainian identity group within its population that wouldn't easily get suppressed. Geographically Russia could prop it up ok, the region has got economic strength. Russia doesn't have boots there so its likely to be a support for any separation with the absence of the political threat that physical force can bring. If they went down that line it would be something much more serious indeed. I doubt the Ukraine would accept even if some in the West would.

    That Russia will do nothing at all here I think is unlikely, its not in Putin's DNA. The question is what, dramatic direct action or dig-in politically and economically to support surrogates whilst attempting to punish Ukraine with the same measures. I think Russia's real abilities to roll the tanks in and sustain it (which is what the rumours always seem to talk about) are limited and its down to whether the Ukrainians and West acquiesce or take him on.

    It is imperative that the new regime and the people who support it ensure that chaos and dis-organisation does not continue. Into such chaos Russia and its surrogates can take advantage with greater ease.

  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    edited February 2014
    Seems to be some kick-offs in the crowd, people being dragged out, also calls for a doctor...
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    Ultra-radical Ukrainian opposition group Right Sector says it will continue protests in Kiev despite parliament's vote to oust Yanukovych, Reuters reports. "The Right Sector will not disperse," the group says in a statement. "It is not the time to celebrate. Now we must be more united than before."
  • Y0kelY0kel Posts: 2,307
    They are rumoured to be pro-government ground level bomber jacket types hiding out... who got found out.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,989

    Some good maps here of the likely partition if it works out that way:

    http://m.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2013/12/09/this-one-map-helps-explain-ukraines-protests/

    As I recall, Southern Ukraine was only taken from the Ottomans and Tartars in the 18th century, and large land grants were made to Russians who often brought their serfs with them from other regions of the Russian Empire.

    It does also sound as if a number of the protesters are from far right groupings.

    Maps and especially electoral result maps don't tell the whole story. Stodge's Third Law of Politics states that a Majority can be defined as the largest number of people wrong about any given issue at any given time. If our definition of democracy begins and ends with the majority calling the shots then there's a problem.

    As we've seen in Ulster, Lebanon and elsewhere, having one ethnic or religious group dominate to the exclusion of a significant minority doesn't usually end well.

  • Socrates said:

    Socrates said:

    Are you implying that the polls are an inaccurate reading of public opinion, and thus should not be considered?

    Yes. If we adopted that measure Nick Clegg would now be prime minister.
    Errr, no. On the eve of the election, YouGov's poll was Tories 35%, Labour 30%, the Lib Dems 24%. The election results were Tories 36%, Labour 29%, Lib Dems 23%.
    YouGov's final poll in 2010 with a sample of 7,000 had CON 35, LAB 28, LD 28.

    Polls are based on GBs shares not UK ones. The GB totals for comparison are CON 37, LAB 29.7, LD 23.6

    Worth bearing in mind that on the statistic that mattered most - the Con-Lab lead, YouGov were spot on at 7% in their final poll.

    However, if we're making comparisons with ICM, YouGov's penultimate poll should be used, because they used the same fieldwork dates. In terms of the Con lead, ICM (8%) were more accurate than YouGov (5%). But if we measure accuracy of polls based on the cumulative difference for the three main parties, then YouGov shaded it over ICM.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Russia Today showing that Party of The Regions is declaring local control of the Eastern regions, meeting in Kharkiv. Claiming support of Odessa and Crimea as well as the Eastern cities. RT usually follows the Moscow line pretty closely, so maybe this is what they want.



    RodCrosby said:

    Tymoshenko approaching Independence Square.

    That's worrying. Suggests that Russia is setting up for civil war and/or partition. And with a long land border they have plenty of room to supply their friends
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,989
    The problem, as I see it, is the Ukraine is more an idea than a reality. Until 1991, it hadn't really existed as an independent state for centuries. Those coming to inhabit the territory might think of themselves as Ukrainian but their cultural and ethnic origins are diverse and that is manifesting itself in the political outlook. It's the same as might have happened had the whole of the island of Ireland become a single state in 1922.
  • Socrates said:

    Socrates said:

    Are you implying that the polls are an inaccurate reading of public opinion, and thus should not be considered?

    Yes. If we adopted that measure Nick Clegg would now be prime minister.
    Errr, no. On the eve of the election, YouGov's poll was Tories 35%, Labour 30%, the Lib Dems 24%. The election results were Tories 36%, Labour 29%, Lib Dems 23%.
    YouGov's final poll in 2010 with a sample of 7,000 had CON 35, LAB 28, LD 28.

    Polls are based on GBs shares not UK ones. The GB totals for comparison are CON 37, LAB 29.7, LD 23.6

    Worth bearing in mind that on the statistic that mattered most - the Con-Lab lead, YouGov were spot on at 7% in their final poll.

    However, if we're making comparisons with ICM, YouGov's penultimate poll should be used, because they used the same fieldwork dates. In terms of the Con lead, ICM (8%) were more accurate than YouGov (5%). But if we measure accuracy of polls based on the cumulative difference for the three main parties, then YouGov shaded it over ICM.

    Socrates said:

    Socrates said:

    Are you implying that the polls are an inaccurate reading of public opinion, and thus should not be considered?

    Yes. If we adopted that measure Nick Clegg would now be prime minister.
    Errr, no. On the eve of the election, YouGov's poll was Tories 35%, Labour 30%, the Lib Dems 24%. The election results were Tories 36%, Labour 29%, Lib Dems 23%.
    YouGov's final poll in 2010 with a sample of 7,000 had CON 35, LAB 28, LD 28.

    Polls are based on GBs shares not UK ones. The GB totals for comparison are CON 37, LAB 29.7, LD 23.6

    Worth bearing in mind that on the statistic that mattered most - the Con-Lab lead, YouGov were spot on at 7% in their final poll.

    However, if we're making comparisons with ICM, YouGov's penultimate poll should be used, because they used the same fieldwork dates. In terms of the Con lead, ICM (8%) were more accurate than YouGov (5%). But if we measure accuracy of polls based on the cumulative difference for the three main parties, then YouGov shaded it over ICM.
    You just sound like an apologist for YouGov. Sure you can take other polls during a campaign but the one that counts is the final one and here YouGov came 7th out of 12 in the polling accuracy table.

  • stodge said:

    It's the same as might have happened had the whole of the island of Ireland become a single state in 1922.

    Or indeed if the scheme of Rome Rule that Parliament approved in 1914 had ever come into force...
  • Life_ina_market_townLife_ina_market_town Posts: 2,319
    edited February 2014
    corporeal said:

    I will be honest Limt, I ran out of steam before I started digging through the Communications Act 2003 and BBC charter. OFCOM run consultations before each elections and the electoral commission input into that.

    Because of that I'd be skeptical of any legal challenge being mounted.

    I'm not suggesting that a legal challenge is likely to be successful, merely that it is not necessarily enough for the regulators to comply with their own rules. Consultation won't save a scheme that is unlawful on public law grounds. In fact, once a consultation is undertaken, numerous duties on the nature of the consultation then apply, which can, in some cases, make a decision that has been "consulted" on more susceptible to successful challenge. My suspicion is that this matter will ultimately fall to be decided by the courts, rather than by the regulators.
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    Interfax Ukraine news agency is reporting that border security officials prevented a charter flight with Viktor Yanukovych aboard, leaving Donetsk. An aide to the chairman of the State Border Service, Serhiy Astakhov, reportedly told the agency that a charter flight tried to leave Donetsk airport "without the required border clearance". According to the border guards, Yanukovych was on board.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Russia has a long tradition of supporting breakaway regions in independent CIS states: Abkhazia, South Ossetia, Trans Dniester for example. They would be keen to keep Crimea (historically Russian rather than Ukranian, as well as Odessa and the coastline. An independent west and central Ukraine would be at their mercy for imports as well as exports.

    Though anyone who has played Diplomacy knows the importance of controlling Galicia!
    Charles said:

    Russia Today showing that Party of The Regions is declaring local control of the Eastern regions, meeting in Kharkiv. Claiming support of Odessa and Crimea as well as the Eastern cities. RT usually follows the Moscow line pretty closely, so maybe this is what they want.



    RodCrosby said:

    Tymoshenko approaching Independence Square.

    That's worrying. Suggests that Russia is setting up for civil war and/or partition. And with a long land border they have plenty of room to supply their friends
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Rome rule was exactly what the Orangemen opposed!

    :-)

    stodge said:

    It's the same as might have happened had the whole of the island of Ireland become a single state in 1922.

    Or indeed if the scheme of Rome Rule that Parliament approved in 1914 had ever come into force...
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,989

    stodge said:

    It's the same as might have happened had the whole of the island of Ireland become a single state in 1922.

    Or indeed if the scheme of Rome Rule that Parliament approved in 1914 had ever come into force...
    Yes, there's plenty of evidence that had Home Rule been introduced, Carson and the Protestants were ready to either declare UDI or fight.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited February 2014
    It's a joke ruling, a stitch up designed to maintain the cosy status quo...

    I've come to the opinion that it would be great to see ukip polling in the mid to high teens and excluded from the debates... It would make the old dinosaur parties seem like traffic wardens! and even more unpopular than they are now

    Rule is rules!
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    Can someone knowledgeable tell me why Tymoshenko and Yushchenko fell out?
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    "This is a major defeat," said a senior Kremlin adviser, adding that the events of the last 24 hours bitterly remind Russian officials of the 2004 Orange Revolution, when Mr. Yanukovych saw his fraud-tainted election victory overturned after massive street protests brought a pro-western government to power.

    "We made the same mistakes again" this time, said the Kremlin adviser, who spoke on condition of anonymity. "For us, the conclusion is that the West succeeded in engineering a coup d'état."

    http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702304275304579399320362286500?mg=reno64-wsj&url=http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304275304579399320362286500.html
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,406
    I don't think Russia should trust the Franco-German alliance with any offers over Galicia.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    A bit too soppy at the end was my lads verdict.
    SeanT said:

    I doubt I will see a better film this year than Lego: The Movie. A chateau bottled masterpiece. Rich, clever, strange, complex, hilarious.

    Trust me. It's remarkable.

  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    stodge said:

    stodge said:

    It's the same as might have happened had the whole of the island of Ireland become a single state in 1922.

    Or indeed if the scheme of Rome Rule that Parliament approved in 1914 had ever come into force...
    Yes, there's plenty of evidence that had Home Rule been introduced, Carson and the Protestants were ready to either declare UDI or fight.
    Cousin Edward was a force for moderation - it was Craig and the others who wanted to fight. Edward was much more conflicted about things - don't forget he was a Galwayman. He wrote privately about finding himself on the 'high road to treason and despair'.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    As an aside, I though this quote from Carson might have some resonance for the 'No' campaign in Scotland...

    "The Coalition Government, after all, is not the British nation, and the British nation will certainly see you righted. Your interests lie with Great Britain. You have helped her, and you have helped her Empire, and her Empire belongs just as much to you as it does to England. Stick to it, and trust the British people”
  • SeanT said:

    I doubt I will see a better film this year than Lego: The Movie. A chateau bottled masterpiece. Rich, clever, strange, complex, hilarious.


    Trust me. It's remarkable.

    My daughter took her boys the other day and said the same.
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    RodCrosby said:

    "This is a major defeat," said a senior Kremlin adviser, adding that the events of the last 24 hours bitterly remind Russian officials of the 2004 Orange Revolution, when Mr. Yanukovych saw his fraud-tainted election victory overturned after massive street protests brought a pro-western government to power.

    "We made the same mistakes again" this time, said the Kremlin adviser, who spoke on condition of anonymity. "For us, the conclusion is that the West succeeded in engineering a coup d'état."

    http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702304275304579399320362286500?mg=reno64-wsj&url=http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304275304579399320362286500.html

    The Russians problem is that they still see everything through a Cold War/imperial lens. This makes them unable to realise that Ukraine wants to become closer to the West for philosophical reasons, and unable to offer an alternative attractive philosophy.
  • smithersjones2013smithersjones2013 Posts: 740
    edited February 2014
    Charles said:

    As an aside, I though this quote from Carson might have some resonance for the 'No' campaign in Scotland...

    "The Coalition Government, after all, is not the British nation, and the British nation will certainly see you righted. Your interests lie with Great Britain. You have helped her, and you have helped her Empire, and her Empire belongs just as much to you as it does to England. Stick to it, and trust the British people”

    85% of those who consider themselves English and Welsh (c 34 million so easily a majority of the English and Welsh population) do not consider themselves themselves as British according to the 2011 census. So putting all their trust in the minority British people is all very well but it's the English and Welsh (not to mention those who still consider themselves some other nationality) they need to worry about.
  • Charles said:

    Cousin Edward was a force for moderation - it was Craig and the others who wanted to fight. Edward was much more conflicted about things - don't forget he was a Galwayman. He wrote privately about finding himself on the 'high road to treason and despair'.

    Indeed, Carson was opposed to the partition of the island by the Government of Ireland Act 1920, and the creation of the Stormont Parliament, which soon became the bastion of Ulster Protestant identity to Craig and his successors. Carson ended his career as a Lord of Appeal in Ordinary in London.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,406
    On the Moyles tax avoidance constructs - I think some of his tax advisers should be in the slammer for that scheme.

  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:

    Cousin Edward was a force for moderation - it was Craig and the others who wanted to fight. Edward was much more conflicted about things - don't forget he was a Galwayman. He wrote privately about finding himself on the 'high road to treason and despair'.

    Indeed, Carson was opposed to the partition of the island by the Government of Ireland Act 1920, and the creation of the Stormont Parliament, which soon became the bastion of Ulster Protestant identity to Craig and his successors. Carson ended his career as a Lord of Appeal in Ordinary in London.
    Did well enough to get a State funeral from Baldwin. Despite saying this:

    "What a fool I was! I was only a puppet, and so was Ulster, and so was Ireland, in the political game that was to get the Conservative Party into Power."
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,704
    SeanT said:

    A bit too soppy at the end was my lads verdict.

    SeanT said:

    I doubt I will see a better film this year than Lego: The Movie. A chateau bottled masterpiece. Rich, clever, strange, complex, hilarious.

    Trust me. It's remarkable.

    It went over my 7 year old's head (tho she really enjoyed it). Lego the Movie is a masterpiece for adults. It's just vastly superior to anything non-animated, that I have seen, for years. Gravity is pitifully insubstantial and trivial in comparison.

    It should win the Oscar for Best Picture, let alone Best Animation. It won't.
    Not like you to go in for "left wing propaganda"
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,704
    SeanT said:

    Jonathan said:

    SeanT said:

    A bit too soppy at the end was my lads verdict.

    SeanT said:

    I doubt I will see a better film this year than Lego: The Movie. A chateau bottled masterpiece. Rich, clever, strange, complex, hilarious.

    Trust me. It's remarkable.

    It went over my 7 year old's head (tho she really enjoyed it). Lego the Movie is a masterpiece for adults. It's just vastly superior to anything non-animated, that I have seen, for years. Gravity is pitifully insubstantial and trivial in comparison.

    It should win the Oscar for Best Picture, let alone Best Animation. It won't.
    Not like you to go in for "left wing propaganda"
    Ah, but many say Lego the Movie is a paean to Ayn Rand individualist libertarianism. That's how good Lego the Movie is. It is all things to all men, like Shakespeare.
    Please show me the link to people condemning the right wing propaganda.
  • Been away - have I missed anything?

    Is TSE still spanking the bookies and if so, is he on the canaries for tomorrow?
  • TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362
    edited February 2014
    Do we remember a certain labour mp last week going round the tv studio's slamming Cameron and the government on the floods,well he's made the front of the mail on sunday = lol

    Mail on Sunday front page - "Hard at work: Red Ed's floods supremo"

    twitter.com/suttonnick/status/437346375936659456/photo/1
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,704
    SeanT said:

    Jonathan said:

    SeanT said:

    Jonathan said:

    SeanT said:

    A bit too soppy at the end was my lads verdict.

    SeanT said:

    I doubt I will see a better film this year than Lego: The Movie. A chateau bottled masterpiece. Rich, clever, strange, complex, hilarious.

    Trust me. It's remarkable.

    It went over my 7 year old's head (tho she really enjoyed it). Lego the Movie is a masterpiece for adults. It's just vastly superior to anything non-animated, that I have seen, for years. Gravity is pitifully insubstantial and trivial in comparison.

    It should win the Oscar for Best Picture, let alone Best Animation. It won't.
    Not like you to go in for "left wing propaganda"
    Ah, but many say Lego the Movie is a paean to Ayn Rand individualist libertarianism. That's how good Lego the Movie is. It is all things to all men, like Shakespeare.
    Please show me the link to people condemning the right wing propaganda.
    Or this

    http://the-libertarian.co.uk/ideology-lego-movie/

    I may have to write an allegorical animated movie about STUPID, OBESE LEFTIES who are so dim and lazy they can't even GOOGLE.
    Why google when you have even stupider, past it, balding RIGHT WINGER to do it for you.
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    The BBC's Kevin Bishop tweets: Central Kharkiv - defenders of Lenin in standoff with Euromaidan supporters. Police keeping sides apart.

    Kickoff's in Crimea earlier
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2014/02/22/the-battle-for-kiev-may-well-be-over-but-is-the-battle-for-crimea-about-to-begin/?tid=hpModule_04941f10-8a79-11e2-98d9-3012c1cd8d1e
  • compouter2compouter2 Posts: 2,371

    Do we remember a certain labour mp last week going round the tv studio's slamming Cameron and the government on the floods,well he's made the front of the mail on sunday = lol

    Mail on Sunday front page - "Hard at work: Red Ed's floods supremo"

    twitter.com/suttonnick/status/437346375936659456/photo/1

    Err.....you know this is going to go tit for tat.....and there are plenty of tits in the coalition to choose from ;-)
  • TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362

    Do we remember a certain labour mp last week going round the tv studio's slamming Cameron and the government on the floods,well he's made the front of the mail on sunday = lol

    Mail on Sunday front page - "Hard at work: Red Ed's floods supremo"

    twitter.com/suttonnick/status/437346375936659456/photo/1

    Err.....you know this is going to go tit for tat.....and there are plenty of tits in the coalition to choose from ;-)
    Proberly,just hope they no ministers from the department of the environment are sunning themselves ;-)
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,014
    edited February 2014
    SeanT said:

    I doubt I will see a better film this year than Lego: The Movie. A chateau bottled masterpiece. Rich, clever, strange, complex, hilarious.

    Trust me. It's remarkable.

    Saw it this evening with my son. Funny but not perfect by any means. We saw it in 2D and there was clearly a fair bit of blurring arising from 3 D effects.

    The last 1/4 did not fit that well with everything up to that point but was quite thought provoking in parts. My son loved all the gentle digs at the Matrix and Star wars.

  • hucks67hucks67 Posts: 758
    If UKIP are included, I expect The Green Party with one MP elected to argue that they should also be included in the main debates. If the SNP lose the independence vote, they will also argue that they should be included. So you could have many more party leaders wanting to take part and I think the broadcasters will find it difficult to say no to them. If this is the case, I think they would be better to go for a sit down Question Time format, with members of an audience and people at home submitting the questions.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,704
    SeanT said:

    I suggest a new pb rule.

    From now on, anyone who hasn't seen LEGO: THE MOVIE, or anyone who believes it is purely rightwing (or leftwing) propaganda is BARRED FROM COMMENTING ON PB, on the grounds of their fatally deficient cultural awareness, or just because they are a flailing fat lefty vulva (yes, you, Jonathan).

    I trust this AWESOME new rule will receive sufficient and immediate accord that it will not require debate.

    Not sure we should be taking cultural advice from a chief stockist of supermarket bargain book bins. Vulva my arse.


  • You just sound like an apologist for YouGov. Sure you can take other polls during a campaign but the one that counts is the final one and here YouGov came 7th out of 12 in the polling accuracy table.

    I'm just pointing out that if you are going to make comparisons between polling companies, you really have to compare fieldwork conducted on the same day. I've read enough here about ICM being the most accurate in GE2010 without once seeing a qualification that they conducted the polling for their final poll a day earlier than all of the other companies, so the samples are not strictly comparable. The only like-for-like comparison we can make with the final ICM poll is with the penultimate YouGov poll, because it was the only other poll with fieldwork conducted on the same day. In that comparison, using the basis you have used to measure accuracy, ICM came 2nd out of 2.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,014
    SeanT said:

    DavidL said:

    SeanT said:

    I doubt I will see a better film this year than Lego: The Movie. A chateau bottled masterpiece. Rich, clever, strange, complex, hilarious.

    Trust me. It's remarkable.

    Saw it this evening with my son. Funny but not perfect by any means. We saw it in 2D and there was clearly a fair bit of blurring arising from 3 D effects.

    The last 1/4 did not fit that well with everything up to that point but was quite thought provoking in parts. My son loved all the gentle digs at the Matrix and Star wars.

    Cretin.

    Also, you are an idiot for not seeing it in 3D. It is DESIGNED to be seen in 3D.

    This makes you a DOUBLE cretin so you must now cease from commenting for three weeks.
    My son doesn't like 3D and I have to say I am not a great fan either although Hugo was outstanding that way.

    The mindless pop song used to brain wash people was incredibly catchy and we have both been caught humming it this evening.

    Well worth a watch but a masterpiece is overstating it.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,704
    SeanT said:

    Jonathan said:

    SeanT said:

    I suggest a new pb rule.

    From now on, anyone who hasn't seen LEGO: THE MOVIE, or anyone who believes it is purely rightwing (or leftwing) propaganda is BARRED FROM COMMENTING ON PB, on the grounds of their fatally deficient cultural awareness, or just because they are a flailing fat lefty vulva (yes, you, Jonathan).

    I trust this AWESOME new rule will receive sufficient and immediate accord that it will not require debate.

    Not sure we should be taking cultural advice from a chief stockist of supermarket bargain book bins. Vulva my arse.
    Also the author who is the spokesman for a generation:

    "Thomas has, I think, done his generation of men a service by telling it like it is, not just on the subjects of pornography and sex, but by mapping out a guide to men’s emotional landscape, and in doing so telling men that being themselves is okay."

    Yeah, that's me, too.

    http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/news/article201138.ece

    So yes, "vulva my arse". I believe that is a direct quote from page 38 of my memoir.
    "His generation of men". I suspect trusses feature significantly.

    Nighty night. We love you really Sean. And you are right, the Lego movie is interesting.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    hucks67 said:

    If UKIP are included, I expect The Green Party with one MP elected to argue that they should also be included in the main debates. If the SNP lose the independence vote, they will also argue that they should be included. So you could have many more party leaders wanting to take part and I think the broadcasters will find it difficult to say no to them. If this is the case, I think they would be better to go for a sit down Question Time format, with members of an audience and people at home submitting the questions.

    To be fair I think it shoüld be a combo of the average polling for say the last 6 months and the %of MPs in the HofC

    Let's put the bar at 20%

    That would keep the status quo', but. LD would be struggling

    PUT THE BAR AT 15% and ukip would poss make it in

    Would make sense to me if it were a head to head with two big parties really
  • MJWMJW Posts: 1,736
    SeanT said:

    Jonathan said:

    SeanT said:

    Jonathan said:

    SeanT said:

    A bit too soppy at the end was my lads verdict.

    SeanT said:

    I doubt I will see a better film this year than Lego: The Movie. A chateau bottled masterpiece. Rich, clever, strange, complex, hilarious.

    Trust me. It's remarkable.

    It went over my 7 year old's head (tho she really enjoyed it). Lego the Movie is a masterpiece for adults. It's just vastly superior to anything non-animated, that I have seen, for years. Gravity is pitifully insubstantial and trivial in comparison.

    It should win the Oscar for Best Picture, let alone Best Animation. It won't.
    Not like you to go in for "left wing propaganda"
    Ah, but many say Lego the Movie is a paean to Ayn Rand individualist libertarianism. That's how good Lego the Movie is. It is all things to all men, like Shakespeare.
    Please show me the link to people condemning the right wing propaganda.
    Or this

    http://the-libertarian.co.uk/ideology-lego-movie/

    I may have to write an allegorical animated movie about STUPID, OBESE LEFTIES who are so dim and lazy they can't even GOOGLE.
    From the sounds of it it seems to depend on whether you regard the main protagonist as representing the evils of big business and its perceived desire to stamp out creativity or that of an overbearing state imposing on its will on a creative class. Hollywood loves the story of an everyman who takes on a bigger power as it appeals to something in us, so both sides of politics like to frame things that way for the same reason.

    Will have to see the movie, but even if I do come out thinking it's a tad Randian, if it's as good as you suggest it'll have the nuance to allow me to enjoy it without worrying about it, all good films have an element of propaganda about them as they have to get you to care about something. You'll always find people on both sides willing to try and cast themselves as profound cultural critics for whom the scales have dropped away from their eyes.

    The one utterly moronic comment is 'Urrgh it's from a big corporation just to sell toys'. What do people think Disney is, a small bay area arts collective? Unless you only let your kids watch arthouse movies chances are you've been to and enjoyed a film in which a major part of the creative process was someone somewhere working out how to make as much money from it as possible.
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    The Russian Ministry of Foreign Affairs tweeted that a “Belarusian tourist bus came under fire in Rovno region (of) Ukraine (and a) Russian citizen was heavily wounded. We demand to ensure safety of civilians.”

    Protesters and opposition leaders speculated that Russia may be looking for a pretext to intervene militarily on behalf of ethnic Russians in Eastern Ukraine.

    The arrival of a Russian delegation, led by Alexey Pushkov, a representative on the Russian State Duma’s Committee on International Affairs, at a meeting in Kharkiv on Saturday of deputies from south-western Ukraine and Crimea, did little to quell fears of Russian intervention.
    https://www.kyivpost.com/content/russia-and-former-soviet-union/russian-foreign-minister-blames-opposition-for-deterioration-in-kyiv-337391.html
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    RodCrosby said:

    The Russian Ministry of Foreign Affairs tweeted that a “Belarusian tourist bus came under fire in Rovno region (of) Ukraine (and a) Russian citizen was heavily wounded. We demand to ensure safety of civilians.”

    Protesters and opposition leaders speculated that Russia may be looking for a pretext to intervene militarily on behalf of ethnic Russians in Eastern Ukraine.

    The arrival of a Russian delegation, led by Alexey Pushkov, a representative on the Russian State Duma’s Committee on International Affairs, at a meeting in Kharkiv on Saturday of deputies from south-western Ukraine and Crimea, did little to quell fears of Russian intervention.
    https://www.kyivpost.com/content/russia-and-former-soviet-union/russian-foreign-minister-blames-opposition-for-deterioration-in-kyiv-337391.html

    I sure do hope Western countries don't allow their current isolationist bout mean they allow Russia to invade Ukraine.
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    Jonathan said:

    SeanT said:

    I suggest a new pb rule.

    From now on, anyone who hasn't seen LEGO: THE MOVIE, or anyone who believes it is purely rightwing (or leftwing) propaganda is BARRED FROM COMMENTING ON PB, on the grounds of their fatally deficient cultural awareness, or just because they are a flailing fat lefty vulva (yes, you, Jonathan).

    I trust this AWESOME new rule will receive sufficient and immediate accord that it will not require debate.

    Not sure we should be taking cultural advice from a chief stockist of supermarket bargain book bins. Vulva my arse.
    I have to say, this was a pretty good comeback.
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    RodCrosby said:

    The BBC's Kevin Bishop tweets: Central Kharkiv - defenders of Lenin in standoff with Euromaidan supporters. Police keeping sides apart.

    Kickoff's in Crimea earlier
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2014/02/22/the-battle-for-kiev-may-well-be-over-but-is-the-battle-for-crimea-about-to-begin/?tid=hpModule_04941f10-8a79-11e2-98d9-3012c1cd8d1e

    What a difference between the two protests. In Kiev, admirable Ukrainian men and women stand proud and remain peaceful even as they are shot at by government troops in order to secure liberal democratic rights. In Crimea, Russians act like nasty thugs who shout abuse and try to physically attack people who have different points of view. Just as they have done to liberals and gay people in Moscow and St. Petersburg over the years. If you wonder how tyrannical autocrats like Putin can remain in power, even as he props up people like the Butcher of Damascus, you just need to look into the faces of those thugs and realise people like them make up a large chunk of Russian population. How I sympathise with Russian liberals fighting such enormous odds.
  • Mick_PorkMick_Pork Posts: 6,530
    edited February 2014
    Two new indyref polls to join Survation and TNS

    Panelbase joins the other two in showing the gap still narrowing while ICM shows it widening from it's last poll. (The ICM also has new methodological changes since it's last poll according to Curtice)

    Panelbase

    Yes 37% (n/c)
    No 47% (-2)

    With undecideds excluded

    Yes 44% (+1)
    No 56% (-1)

    ICM

    Yes 37% (n/c)
    No 49% (+5)

    With undecideds excluded

    Yes 43% (-3)
    No 57% (+3)

    The ICM should ensure another week of shrieking from the PB right-wingers on every PB thread and a continuation of SLAB's 2011 negativity strategy.
  • Socrates said:

    RodCrosby said:

    The BBC's Kevin Bishop tweets: Central Kharkiv - defenders of Lenin in standoff with Euromaidan supporters. Police keeping sides apart.

    Kickoff's in Crimea earlier
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2014/02/22/the-battle-for-kiev-may-well-be-over-but-is-the-battle-for-crimea-about-to-begin/?tid=hpModule_04941f10-8a79-11e2-98d9-3012c1cd8d1e

    What a difference between the two protests. In Kiev, admirable Ukrainian men and women stand proud and remain peaceful even as they are shot at by government troops in order to secure liberal democratic rights. In Crimea, Russians act like nasty thugs who shout abuse and try to physically attack people who have different points of view.
    Hmm, you may just be seeing differential media coverge there. Legacy media need one side to be the hero and the other side to be the villain, so if some of the Ukrainian protestors were shouting abuse and physically attacking people that wouldn't make the cut of the typical short news item.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Sunday Times - Tim Rice joins UKIP.
  • Socrates said:

    RodCrosby said:

    The Russian Ministry of Foreign Affairs tweeted that a “Belarusian tourist bus came under fire in Rovno region (of) Ukraine (and a) Russian citizen was heavily wounded. We demand to ensure safety of civilians.”

    Protesters and opposition leaders speculated that Russia may be looking for a pretext to intervene militarily on behalf of ethnic Russians in Eastern Ukraine.

    The arrival of a Russian delegation, led by Alexey Pushkov, a representative on the Russian State Duma’s Committee on International Affairs, at a meeting in Kharkiv on Saturday of deputies from south-western Ukraine and Crimea, did little to quell fears of Russian intervention.
    https://www.kyivpost.com/content/russia-and-former-soviet-union/russian-foreign-minister-blames-opposition-for-deterioration-in-kyiv-337391.html

    I sure do hope Western countries don't allow their current isolationist bout mean they allow Russia to invade Ukraine.
    Russian troops don't need to invade, they're already there. If the Russian-friendly regions break away and their local police and the Russian army on the ground are willing to defend them, what are you suggesting Western countries should do?
This discussion has been closed.