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So this explains the Rwanda obsession – politicalbetting.com

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  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,818
    Leon said:

    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    malcolmg said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    How can it be getting dark already, this country is like fucking Greenland

    Not helped by freak thunder storms. Nine more days and it turns around, though, starts getting lighter again.
    Yeah, but it doesn't actually FEEL like it's getting lighter til about late Feb, and the weather barely improves until mid March

    It's like living in a torture garden, we just get used to being persistently flailed by outbreaks of SLEET. In the DARK
    Ya big softie, you will not melt
    This autumn has been unusually diabolical, at least in terms of rain. An old rain butt I have in the corner of the garden was pretty much empty when I got back from my autumn trip; now it’s full, simply by rainfall collected falling into the top, which has a diameter less than the body. Weather experts say the island has had more rainfall between mid October and now than any time recorded since the 1940s. Sunday night just along the coast we had the largest landslip on the island since at least the 1990s, putting a cafe, the main road, and some residential properties perilously close to the new cliff/ridge edge. And, as of yesterday morning, the land there was still moving. The conservatory roof I spent £10,000 replacing after it was bust by storm Eunice is leaking already.
    I am not entirely unenvious of you living on the IOW, rain or no rain.
    It’s nice, when it’s sunny. Which, compared to the rest of the UK, it is more often.
    Does it ever feel annoyingly cut off? Serious question

    I am intrigued by islands in general but I know island fever is a thing
    He can take a London Underground train to wherever he wants to go. Which presumably answers your question.
  • IanB2 said:

    Carnyx said:

    IanB2 said:

    malcolmg said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    How can it be getting dark already, this country is like fucking Greenland

    Not helped by freak thunder storms. Nine more days and it turns around, though, starts getting lighter again.
    Yeah, but it doesn't actually FEEL like it's getting lighter til about late Feb, and the weather barely improves until mid March

    It's like living in a torture garden, we just get used to being persistently flailed by outbreaks of SLEET. In the DARK
    Ya big softie, you will not melt
    This autumn has been unusually diabolical, at least in terms of rain. An old rain butt I have in the corner of the garden was pretty much empty when I got back from my autumn trip; now it’s full, simply by rainfall collected falling into the top, which has a diameter less than the body. Weather experts say the island has had more rainfall between mid October and now than any time recorded since the 1940s. Sunday night just along the coast we had the largest landslip on the island since at least the 1990s, putting a cafe, the main road, and some residential properties perilously close to the new cliff/ridge edge. And, as of yesterday morning, the land there was still moving. The conservatory roof I spent £10,000 replacing after it was bust by storm Eunice is leaking already.
    The moment I started reading - I wondered about landslips, and look what happens in the next sentence. Some on the coast in westmost Dorset too though they are always having them and it's not easy to be sure if it's just media attention/inattention. This sort of local judgement, from you, is quite different.


    Must be this one?

    https://www.countypress.co.uk/news/23982519.bonchurch-landslide-latest-isle-wight-council/
    Yep. Where I live sits on the largest urban landslip complex in Northern Europe. And the problem we have is that, deep down, there’s a layer of clay sloping down towards the sea, to which the rainwater sinks, and then the other geology on top has a habit of slipping down the slope when it all gets too wet. Really, the Victorians should never have built here. But Queen Victoria’s doctor recommended the air here as uniquely suited as a cure to TB, and suddenly the whole town turned into a boomtown, with guest houses being thrown up everywhere, rampant property speculation, and for a decade or two the town was insanely fashionable; Oxford University even had outreach lectures here each summer, and the steamer delivered boatloads of summer visitors daily to the (long gone) pier.

    Anyhow, we now live near the sea, and are getting nearer every day. There’s a project up the road, digging bore holes to investigate the morphology, with a view to installing groundwater pumps deep down to extract the groundwater when it starts to build. But implementation of the pumps is still some years away.

    Twenty residential properties evacuated, one summer business probably ruined, and of the three roads into the town, two are currently closed, almost cutting off the rest of the island. And it rains, still.
    Sorry to hear about landslid and related issues affecting (to put it mildly) your neighbors.

    So much for Wight Privilege!

    Here in the great Pacific Northwest, folks are very acquainted and attuned to similar problems from similar causes. Namely large amounts of rainfall over extended periods, and interaction of all this water upon local topography and other factors, such as coastal erosion, land use and development.

    Every few years or so, there's a story on TV, in the papers, on the web, etc. about a house or other building that's been perched on top of a bluff for years, decades . . . that just slide down the hill or is in the process of doing so.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,071
    Leon said:

    Have we done this?

    81% of 2019 Conservative voters think the government have done a bad job managing immigration.

    image

    Who the feck thinks they've done a GOOD job?! University chancellors? How many of them vote Tory?

    We've allowed in 1.3m legal migrants in two years and the UKG has spent £150m not sending anyone to Rwanda and not stopping any boats

    What kinda weird 2019 Tory voter thinks this is a "good record"?
    It'll be the residual vote thinking 'Well at least they are occasionally trying'. It's worked before, but is not any longer.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,071
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    DougSeal said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    DougSeal said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    How can it be getting dark already, this country is like fucking Greenland

    I've started referring to where I live as "North Pole North". When I describe it to people its "wait, you can go *north* from Aberdeen?"
    In all sincerity I dunno how you do it. London is fecking intolerable from late November to early March (with a small exception for Dec 12th to Jan 1st, due to merriment). North Scotland is like that for about six months

    Mankind was not meant to live at these cruel latitudes
    Have you ever thought about moving to the Rift Valley?
    Yes. I actually believe we have an innate hankering for the weather and landscapes of primordial Africa, where we evolved

    Have you ever been to Kenya, Tanzania, South Africa - the cradles of humanity?

    There is something about the bush, the scent of the soil at twilit, the thrumming of the cicadas and the stirring of the predators and and the burning sun melting into warm velvet dark: it feels like HOME

    I'm not joking. Especially the unique scent. It triggers something deep in our atavistic brain
    Well we could have all retired to the Mediterranean and enjoyed healthcare and our UK pension in the sun until we fell off the perch.

    And then you voted Leave.

    Stop fucking moaning and earn more money
    But I can only spend it for 90 days in the sun before I have to return to Brexitland and blow it all on central heating.
    There are plenty of places where you can stay year round with a retirement visa and a small pot of money, and they have nicer climates than much of Europe

    Or you can get a digital nomad visa and pay tiny amounts of tax - many countries now offer this, too. Do some research

    The idea that Brexit closed all these doors and we are stuck is just bollocks, the mobility of the digital era means there are more opportunities than ever if you can be arsed
    You know that's not true. The digital nomad routes are open to EU citizens as well. Its just that they can also live anywhere in the EU. Brexit closed a door, not all doors, but a fucking big one. If we'd remained we would have had loads more options. Also being a digital nomad is usually very difficult for tax and local employment law reasons. As I know from experience.

    Still, I'm sure this mythical "sovereignty" experience will keep the seasonal affective disorder from our door with its sunlit uplands.
    What the feck are you on about now?

    There are digital nomad visas available everywhere, from Costa Rica to Mauritius to Malaysia to Sri Lanka to Bali (plus all the EU ones)

    https://nomadgirl.co/countries-with-digital-nomad-visas/

    Sri Lanka looks tempting. 270 days, no tax (AFAICS), meaning you can then spend the other 86 days in the UK and avoid UK tax altogether
    270 + 86 = 356. Where are you spending the other 9 days?
    In airport queues?

    It makes me laugh that such a patriotic Brit wants to avoid his land and in particular paying tax here.
    Seriously, the first thing Labour should do once they win the election is slap a great big UK-FATCA into law, with low exemption thresholds. And remove British citizenship from anyone who doesn't comply.

    You want to be British? Well pay your fecking taxes like the rest of us!
    Is that the same as the US system where you pay US tax (or at least are liable for it) on all earnings world wide? Seems like a good system to me.
    It's a terrible. punitive system. Even if you haven't lived in the USA for years, want nothing to do with the place, have no ties to it, and are happily settled elswhere, the Feds might easily come after you for your tax earned on all income, outside the USA. And renouncing US citizenship to get them off your back, is really difficult, bureaucratic and arduous

    https://www.greenbacktaxservices.com/knowledge-center/renounce-us-citizenship/
    Well assuming you grew up there and so benefitted from eduction and also expect to be protected by the US diplomatic service and military if you get into trouble then it seems to me to be a reasonable exchange. Better admittedly, if applied to the UK where you get a lot more bang for your buck in terms of services. But in the end if you don't want to contribute to your country and benefit from the protection carrying the passport gives you then renounce your citizenship. Job done.
    However renunciation can be a nightmare, it is as if they make it especially hard for anyone trying to flee the US tax system
    So out of character for tax regimes of course.

    But seriously it does seem an unfair approach to me.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,372
    The Post Office Scandal just gets worse.

    Surely there has to be criminal prosecutions as a result of it.

    https://x.com/tomwitherow/status/1734556868993855657?s=61&t=s0ae0IFncdLS1Dc7J0P_TQ
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,859
    stodge said:

    Gove's a snivelling little shit.

    Local councils will no longer be forced to set aside greenfield land to meet their future housing needs, under a new planning system to be announced by ministers.

    In a move that industry sources have claimed would be “disastrous”, Michael Gove will allow local authorities to reduce the number of houses to be built if development would significantly alter the character of their areas or impinge on the green belt.

    Councils will also be given an exemption from building new homes on prime agricultural land.

    The reforms, which could be announced as soon as Thursday, are designed to appease rebel Conservative MPs who have warned that opposition to housebuilding in their constituencies will cost them their seats at the next election.

    But critics have warned that they amount to a “nimby’s charter” that will lead to a continuing shortage of housing in the areas of greatest need.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/gove-to-slash-housebuilding-targets-for-green-belt-0btt76rgd

    I presume Gove, while perhaps expecting to keep his own seat (though Surrey Heath Council is now LD) isn't looking forward to a non-Ministerial life or a life in opposition though I'm sure his account of the last 13 years will be required reading.

    As @TSE is too nice to say, it all smacks of pathetic desperation, an attempt to shore up the crumbling edifice that once was the Conservative vote in southern England. It now validates and legitimses anti-development groups and policies and does little or nothing to tackle this country's acute housing issues.
    The last seat projection I saw had most of the Surrey seats going LibDem. Which would be amazing, if it happens.

    And surely our NPXMP, who was so keen that LibDems should vote Labour in MidBeds, will be practicing what he preaches, and casting his GE vote for the local LibDems who have so generously gifted him his seat on the council?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,071
    stodge said:

    Gove's a snivelling little shit.

    Local councils will no longer be forced to set aside greenfield land to meet their future housing needs, under a new planning system to be announced by ministers.

    In a move that industry sources have claimed would be “disastrous”, Michael Gove will allow local authorities to reduce the number of houses to be built if development would significantly alter the character of their areas or impinge on the green belt.

    Councils will also be given an exemption from building new homes on prime agricultural land.

    The reforms, which could be announced as soon as Thursday, are designed to appease rebel Conservative MPs who have warned that opposition to housebuilding in their constituencies will cost them their seats at the next election.

    But critics have warned that they amount to a “nimby’s charter” that will lead to a continuing shortage of housing in the areas of greatest need.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/gove-to-slash-housebuilding-targets-for-green-belt-0btt76rgd

    I presume Gove, while perhaps expecting to keep his own seat (though Surrey Heath Council is now LD) isn't looking forward to a non-Ministerial life or a life in opposition though I'm sure his account of the last 13 years will be required reading.

    As TSE is too nice to say, it all smacks of pathetic desperation, an attempt to shore up the crumbling edifice that once was the Conservative vote in southern England. It now validates and legitimses anti-development groups and policies and does little or nothing to tackle this country's acute housing issues.
    The government's approach in the last year to planning has also actually made things harder for many local councils and conservative councillors controlling them, because loads of residents read the news and think there have already been a lot of changes, and are angry and bitter when the councils still approve a lot of things (or they are approved on appeal), because it was mostly announcements and vibes, not actual changes.

    So councillors may well appreciate some actual changes occurring, but it'll be too late for many.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,261
    Look at Scruton’s study. Beautiful and yet full of utility

    You could spend happy decades there


  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,989
    @alexwickham
    ‘Rebel’ debate in the room is boiling down to

    — a lot of them seem to want to abstain or even vote for the bill, believing Bill Cash can work with the govt to significantly amend it in January

    — hardcore are saying that’s fantasy and it’s now or never

    — no white smoke tho
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,071
    Taz said:

    The Post Office Scandal just gets worse.

    Surely there has to be criminal prosecutions as a result of it.

    https://x.com/tomwitherow/status/1734556868993855657?s=61&t=s0ae0IFncdLS1Dc7J0P_TQ

    This scandal has shown the Post Office went beyond stupidity and into malice a long time ago. Given their conduct at the inquiry they are pretty clearly still actively hostile and so will not have learned a goddamn thing either.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,859
    edited December 2023
    Leon said:

    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    malcolmg said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    How can it be getting dark already, this country is like fucking Greenland

    Not helped by freak thunder storms. Nine more days and it turns around, though, starts getting lighter again.
    Yeah, but it doesn't actually FEEL like it's getting lighter til about late Feb, and the weather barely improves until mid March

    It's like living in a torture garden, we just get used to being persistently flailed by outbreaks of SLEET. In the DARK
    Ya big softie, you will not melt
    This autumn has been unusually diabolical, at least in terms of rain. An old rain butt I have in the corner of the garden was pretty much empty when I got back from my autumn trip; now it’s full, simply by rainfall collected falling into the top, which has a diameter less than the body. Weather experts say the island has had more rainfall between mid October and now than any time recorded since the 1940s. Sunday night just along the coast we had the largest landslip on the island since at least the 1990s, putting a cafe, the main road, and some residential properties perilously close to the new cliff/ridge edge. And, as of yesterday morning, the land there was still moving. The conservatory roof I spent £10,000 replacing after it was bust by storm Eunice is leaking already.
    I am not entirely unenvious of you living on the IOW, rain or no rain.
    It’s nice, when it’s sunny. Which, compared to the rest of the UK, it is more often.
    Does it ever feel annoyingly cut off? Serious question

    I am intrigued by islands in general but I know island fever is a thing
    I still have friends in London (not just the dog), and am back there at least every month. And in the summer I can stay centrally for a few days and do London stuff, more often than I managed when commuting in from Outer London to a full time job. So that helps cope with cabin fever stuck on the island. It makes me laugh when I hear locals here on the south of the island talking about how they haven’t been up to (faraway) Ryde or Cowes for years.

    The ferries run through all weathers, almost, so we are very rarely actually cut off. The biggest downside is being sent to Southampton or Portsmouth hospitals for any medical issue beyond the routine, which takes up a whole day of travel. But then so many people advise avoiding the island hospital as soon as you get beyond the testing/investigation/stage, that it’s probably sensible to make the trip. When you see people walking funny, it usually turns out they they ignored this advice and had their joint replacements done on the island.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,071
    Leon said:

    Look at Scruton’s study. Beautiful and yet full of utility

    You could spend happy decades there


    One of the good early Covid twitter accounts was 'bookcase credibility', judging the camera set up of various senior people on TV (I recall Caroline Lucas scored high marks with a bookcase shown via a mirror reflection). Applies to offices generally too.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,486
    edited December 2023
    Leon said:

    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    malcolmg said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    How can it be getting dark already, this country is like fucking Greenland

    Not helped by freak thunder storms. Nine more days and it turns around, though, starts getting lighter again.
    Yeah, but it doesn't actually FEEL like it's getting lighter til about late Feb, and the weather barely improves until mid March

    It's like living in a torture garden, we just get used to being persistently flailed by outbreaks of SLEET. In the DARK
    Ya big softie, you will not melt
    This autumn has been unusually diabolical, at least in terms of rain. An old rain butt I have in the corner of the garden was pretty much empty when I got back from my autumn trip; now it’s full, simply by rainfall collected falling into the top, which has a diameter less than the body. Weather experts say the island has had more rainfall between mid October and now than any time recorded since the 1940s. Sunday night just along the coast we had the largest landslip on the island since at least the 1990s, putting a cafe, the main road, and some residential properties perilously close to the new cliff/ridge edge. And, as of yesterday morning, the land there was still moving. The conservatory roof I spent £10,000 replacing after it was bust by storm Eunice is leaking already.
    I am not entirely unenvious of you living on the IOW, rain or no rain.
    It’s nice, when it’s sunny. Which, compared to the rest of the UK, it is more often.
    Does it ever feel annoyingly cut off? Serious question

    I am intrigued by islands in general but I know island fever is a thing
    It’s a bit of a trade-off. As an island dweller I get the levels of safety, security/crime way below a large country. It’s easy to police borders, keep out “undesirables”, hard to get away with crime so it makes crime less attractive.

    I get ridiculous tax rates but still get great medical treatment and public services but have been toying with moving to the UK because the downside of island life is the cultural void as it’s hard for a place of 100,000 to support a wide cultural base despite a lot of private financial support. I miss being able to just jump in a car and go to a different city, town, landscape but it’s a very big decision as the current UK tax rules are bonkers and obviously I would imagine even less friendly under Labour.

    I’m lucky that the island I live in has a great food culture and good bars and pubs, many more than a similar population would probably support in the UK but I yearn for London, the Cotswolds and as I said, if I want a change of scene I can jump in the car or a train rather than a flight or boat.

    So island life is great and frustrating at the same time. Like anywhere really.
  • Leon said:

    Look at Scruton’s study. Beautiful and yet full of utility

    You could spend happy decades there


    As long as Scruton wasn't there.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,859
    kle4 said:

    Taz said:

    The Post Office Scandal just gets worse.

    Surely there has to be criminal prosecutions as a result of it.

    https://x.com/tomwitherow/status/1734556868993855657?s=61&t=s0ae0IFncdLS1Dc7J0P_TQ

    This scandal has shown the Post Office went beyond stupidity and into malice a long time ago. Given their conduct at the inquiry they are pretty clearly still actively hostile and so will not have learned a goddamn thing either.
    I reckon that New Year ITV drama will be a turning point. The trailer is on YouTube. It will make what has previously been a somewhat obscure technical IT problem into a real human tragedy, and I wouldn’t fancy being one of the senior PO managers who surely never expected to find their management career dramatised for prime time telly.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,872
    kle4 said:

    stodge said:

    Gove's a snivelling little shit.

    Local councils will no longer be forced to set aside greenfield land to meet their future housing needs, under a new planning system to be announced by ministers.

    In a move that industry sources have claimed would be “disastrous”, Michael Gove will allow local authorities to reduce the number of houses to be built if development would significantly alter the character of their areas or impinge on the green belt.

    Councils will also be given an exemption from building new homes on prime agricultural land.

    The reforms, which could be announced as soon as Thursday, are designed to appease rebel Conservative MPs who have warned that opposition to housebuilding in their constituencies will cost them their seats at the next election.

    But critics have warned that they amount to a “nimby’s charter” that will lead to a continuing shortage of housing in the areas of greatest need.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/gove-to-slash-housebuilding-targets-for-green-belt-0btt76rgd

    I presume Gove, while perhaps expecting to keep his own seat (though Surrey Heath Council is now LD) isn't looking forward to a non-Ministerial life or a life in opposition though I'm sure his account of the last 13 years will be required reading.

    As TSE is too nice to say, it all smacks of pathetic desperation, an attempt to shore up the crumbling edifice that once was the Conservative vote in southern England. It now validates and legitimses anti-development groups and policies and does little or nothing to tackle this country's acute housing issues.
    The government's approach in the last year to planning has also actually made things harder for many local councils and conservative councillors controlling them, because loads of residents read the news and think there have already been a lot of changes, and are angry and bitter when the councils still approve a lot of things (or they are approved on appeal), because it was mostly announcements and vibes, not actual changes.

    So councillors may well appreciate some actual changes occurring, but it'll be too late for many.
    The "line" from central Government has been for councils to approve and it's been self evident refusing and going to appeal only delays the inevitable. It therefore seems curious to hear a DCLOG Secretary who seemingly was pro-development now "suggesting" councils can refuse excessive developments without the inevitability of a successful appeal from the developer.

    Some of the housing targets for villages and small towns were completely unsustainable combined with the inability to provide supporting infrastructure.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,261
    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    malcolmg said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    How can it be getting dark already, this country is like fucking Greenland

    Not helped by freak thunder storms. Nine more days and it turns around, though, starts getting lighter again.
    Yeah, but it doesn't actually FEEL like it's getting lighter til about late Feb, and the weather barely improves until mid March

    It's like living in a torture garden, we just get used to being persistently flailed by outbreaks of SLEET. In the DARK
    Ya big softie, you will not melt
    This autumn has been unusually diabolical, at least in terms of rain. An old rain butt I have in the corner of the garden was pretty much empty when I got back from my autumn trip; now it’s full, simply by rainfall collected falling into the top, which has a diameter less than the body. Weather experts say the island has had more rainfall between mid October and now than any time recorded since the 1940s. Sunday night just along the coast we had the largest landslip on the island since at least the 1990s, putting a cafe, the main road, and some residential properties perilously close to the new cliff/ridge edge. And, as of yesterday morning, the land there was still moving. The conservatory roof I spent £10,000 replacing after it was bust by storm Eunice is leaking already.
    I am not entirely unenvious of you living on the IOW, rain or no rain.
    It’s nice, when it’s sunny. Which, compared to the rest of the UK, it is more often.
    Does it ever feel annoyingly cut off? Serious question

    I am intrigued by islands in general but I know island fever is a thing
    I still have friends in London (not just the dog), and am back there at least every month. And in the summer I can stay centrally for a few days and do London stuff, more often than I managed when commuting in from Outer London to a full time job. So that helps cope with cabin fever stuck on the island. It makes me laugh when I hear locals here on the south of the island talking about how they haven’t been up to Ryde or Cowes for years.

    The ferries run through all weathers, almost, so we are very rarely actually cut off. The biggest downside is being sent to Southampton or Portsmouth hospitals for any medical issue beyond the routine, which takes up a whole day of travel. But then so many people advise avoiding the island hospital as soon as you get beyond the testing/investigation/stage, that it’s probably sensible to make the trip. When you see people walking funny, it usually turns out they they ignored this advice and had their joint replacements done on the island.
    Interesting, ta

    I've never actually been to the IoW!

    There's a list of places in Britain I've somehow never visited - that's one, also the Yorkshire Dales, the Whitby coast, the Cumbrian coast, the Cairngorms, Pembrokeshire, most of Ulster..... I think I've done everywhere else

    One day I must amend this
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,549
    edited December 2023
    Taz said:

    The Post Office Scandal just gets worse.

    Surely there has to be criminal prosecutions as a result of it.

    https://x.com/tomwitherow/status/1734556868993855657?s=61&t=s0ae0IFncdLS1Dc7J0P_TQ

    If you haven't already seen it, watch some of Jarnail Singh's testimony. It's almost unbelievable how poor he is as a witness.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V20Urz8r9Q4
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mh927S2LEvc
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E5NH_KefMuo
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CCJZHxRhUfE

    Report by Nick Wallis.

    https://www.postofficescandal.uk/post/more-singhd-against-than-singh-ing/
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,261
    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    Look at Scruton’s study. Beautiful and yet full of utility

    You could spend happy decades there


    One of the good early Covid twitter accounts was 'bookcase credibility', judging the camera set up of various senior people on TV (I recall Caroline Lucas scored high marks with a bookcase shown via a mirror reflection). Applies to offices generally too.
    The key things in that study are the really comfy-looking chairs, the nice but not ostenatious pictures, but most of all the hansome old piano

    I imagine myself reading a few pages of Wittgenstein, then writing an essay on the errors of post-modern architecture, then shifting to the ola joanna and playing a Bach partita, then sipping some wine in that chair with a volume of Ezra Pound in hand, then just staring out of the window
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,748

    May I be blunt? It is just fucking unbelievable that so much government bandwidth and parliamentary time is being taken up with this Rwanda nonsense when there is so much else to do. Especially as it's all a red herring when legal migration is so high. Fiddling while Rome burns springs to mind. Resources should obviously be spent on clearing the asylum-seekers backlog and yes, deporting people who have no valid claim to be here, rather than on non-existent flights to Rwanda.

    To my mind, this government has committed lots of sins. But the greatest one of all is using all its time and energy to enact an absurd policy that clearly won't have any significant impact on migration, illegal or legal. Meanwhile, public services are left to rot.

    Setting aside the excitement over whether it will get through the Commons, does anyone think it will have the slightest chance of getting through the Lords?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,908
    edited December 2023
    Yes immigration is an issue especially for Conservative voters but cost of living is still the biggest concern for most voters, as is getting inflation down so that must remain the government's main priority.

    O/T A friend sadly passed away from MND today, terrible disease I just hope progress can be made on a cure
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,261
    boulay said:

    Leon said:

    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    malcolmg said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    How can it be getting dark already, this country is like fucking Greenland

    Not helped by freak thunder storms. Nine more days and it turns around, though, starts getting lighter again.
    Yeah, but it doesn't actually FEEL like it's getting lighter til about late Feb, and the weather barely improves until mid March

    It's like living in a torture garden, we just get used to being persistently flailed by outbreaks of SLEET. In the DARK
    Ya big softie, you will not melt
    This autumn has been unusually diabolical, at least in terms of rain. An old rain butt I have in the corner of the garden was pretty much empty when I got back from my autumn trip; now it’s full, simply by rainfall collected falling into the top, which has a diameter less than the body. Weather experts say the island has had more rainfall between mid October and now than any time recorded since the 1940s. Sunday night just along the coast we had the largest landslip on the island since at least the 1990s, putting a cafe, the main road, and some residential properties perilously close to the new cliff/ridge edge. And, as of yesterday morning, the land there was still moving. The conservatory roof I spent £10,000 replacing after it was bust by storm Eunice is leaking already.
    I am not entirely unenvious of you living on the IOW, rain or no rain.
    It’s nice, when it’s sunny. Which, compared to the rest of the UK, it is more often.
    Does it ever feel annoyingly cut off? Serious question

    I am intrigued by islands in general but I know island fever is a thing
    It’s a bit of a trade-off. As an island dweller I get the levels of safety, security/crime way below a large country. It’s easy to police borders, keep out “undesirables”, hard to get away with crime so it makes crime less attractive.

    I get ridiculous tax rates but still get great medical treatment and public services but have been toying with moving to the UK because the downside of island life is the cultural void as it’s hard for a place of 100,000 to support a wide cultural base despite a lot of private financial support. I miss being able to just jump in a car and go to a different city, town, landscape but it’s a very big decision as the current UK tax rules are bonkers and obviously I would imagine even less friendly under Labour.

    I’m lucky that the island I live in has a great food culture and good bars and pubs, many more than a similar population would probably support in the UK but I yearn for London, the Cotswolds and as I said, if I want a change of scene I can jump in the car or a train rather than a flight or boat.

    So island life is great and frustrating at the same time. Like anywhere really.
    You're in the Channel Isles, right?

    Always seemed quite attractive to me, that little bit sunner than southern England. But, yes, tiny

    Not sure I could hack it, ultimately
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,859
    Leon said:

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    malcolmg said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    How can it be getting dark already, this country is like fucking Greenland

    Not helped by freak thunder storms. Nine more days and it turns around, though, starts getting lighter again.
    Yeah, but it doesn't actually FEEL like it's getting lighter til about late Feb, and the weather barely improves until mid March

    It's like living in a torture garden, we just get used to being persistently flailed by outbreaks of SLEET. In the DARK
    Ya big softie, you will not melt
    This autumn has been unusually diabolical, at least in terms of rain. An old rain butt I have in the corner of the garden was pretty much empty when I got back from my autumn trip; now it’s full, simply by rainfall collected falling into the top, which has a diameter less than the body. Weather experts say the island has had more rainfall between mid October and now than any time recorded since the 1940s. Sunday night just along the coast we had the largest landslip on the island since at least the 1990s, putting a cafe, the main road, and some residential properties perilously close to the new cliff/ridge edge. And, as of yesterday morning, the land there was still moving. The conservatory roof I spent £10,000 replacing after it was bust by storm Eunice is leaking already.
    I am not entirely unenvious of you living on the IOW, rain or no rain.
    It’s nice, when it’s sunny. Which, compared to the rest of the UK, it is more often.
    Does it ever feel annoyingly cut off? Serious question

    I am intrigued by islands in general but I know island fever is a thing
    I still have friends in London (not just the dog), and am back there at least every month. And in the summer I can stay centrally for a few days and do London stuff, more often than I managed when commuting in from Outer London to a full time job. So that helps cope with cabin fever stuck on the island. It makes me laugh when I hear locals here on the south of the island talking about how they haven’t been up to Ryde or Cowes for years.

    The ferries run through all weathers, almost, so we are very rarely actually cut off. The biggest downside is being sent to Southampton or Portsmouth hospitals for any medical issue beyond the routine, which takes up a whole day of travel. But then so many people advise avoiding the island hospital as soon as you get beyond the testing/investigation/stage, that it’s probably sensible to make the trip. When you see people walking funny, it usually turns out they they ignored this advice and had their joint replacements done on the island.
    Interesting, ta

    I've never actually been to the IoW!

    There's a list of places in Britain I've somehow never visited - that's one, also the Yorkshire Dales, the Whitby coast, the Cumbrian coast, the Cairngorms, Pembrokeshire, most of Ulster..... I think I've done everywhere else

    One day I must amend this
    Meanwhile, the beach is five minutes walk down the hill. The town has most of the amenities you would want, including a fast developing arts/cultural scene. The air is fresh and the scenery is magnificent, and there are great walks I can do from my front door. And I’ve just installed a sauna into my spare bedroom, into which I can retreat when it’s cold, wet and windy outside.

    This video might tempt you, although they did wait until the best of the summer weather for the filming:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cEUY9stPqsA

    The very top of the gable on my roof is just visible at 2:35

  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,805
    I thought sir Keir was pretty poor on Today this morning but the traffic did not have me in the most charitable of moods. It’s not often that promises of boring diligence sound attractive.

    But then I heard the Conservatives. Christ on a bike. There are morons who think Parliamentary sovereignty means we are not bound by any international agreements. There are closet racists who think that Rwanda will just do whatever they are told. There are people, struggling to find an adjective short of fascist, who think it’s ok to exclude the courts from any kind of review of executive action no matter what.

    Boring, dull and nothing beyond the normal level of incompetence started to sound better and better.
  • Well


  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,989
    @SamCoatesSky

    The ERG and 4 other Tory factions will ABSTAIN tonight on the vote

    And if the bill isn’t changed vote the government on notice they will REBEL at third reading in January

    But how many will this be?
  • HYUFD said:

    Yes immigration is an issue especially for Conservative voters but cost of living is still the biggest concern for most voters, as is getting inflation down so that must remain the government's main priority.

    O/T A friend sadly passed away from MND today, terrible disease I just hope progress can be made on a cure

    So sorry to hear that news @HYUFD and sympathy to the family and friends

    My daughter in laws father suffered from it and their marriage in Summer 2015 in Kelowna was brought forward so he could attend. He was a lovely person and died just a few short weeks later
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,653
    Scott_xP said:

    @SamCoatesSky

    The ERG and 4 other Tory factions will ABSTAIN tonight on the vote

    And if the bill isn’t changed vote the government on notice they will REBEL at third reading in January

    But how many will this be?

    Not enough. I said earlier I thought only 50-70 needed to abstain for the bill to fail but now I think that's too low. Suspect it needs to be 90+ abstentions unless a fair few vote against.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,748
    In another major blow to Roshi Sunak, Mark Francois, the chairman of the European Research Group (ERG), just said that his group and four other collectives of Tory MPs have decided they cannot support the bill.
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-67689442

    Trying to decide whether that's better or worse than the BBC not being able to type the prime minister's name without getting it wrong.
  • DavidL said:

    I thought sir Keir was pretty poor on Today this morning but the traffic did not have me in the most charitable of moods. It’s not often that promises of boring diligence sound attractive.

    But then I heard the Conservatives. Christ on a bike. There are morons who think Parliamentary sovereignty means we are not bound by any international agreements. There are closet racists who think that Rwanda will just do whatever they are told. There are people, struggling to find an adjective short of fascist, who think it’s ok to exclude the courts from any kind of review of executive action no matter what.

    Boring, dull and nothing beyond the normal level of incompetence started to sound better and better.

    And that's Starmer's appeal.

    I'm sure there are those on the left who are narked that he's not promising a Social Democratic Revolution. And there will be problems when some national issues don't magically vanish with a new government.

    But I'm pretty sure that it's not just me thinking "he'll have to do, whatever happens can't be worse than this."

    And provided he does, provided he stops some of this, he can be PM as long as he wants. The "Things can only get better" threshold is incredibly low right now, and all the current blue team are complicit in that.

    The Conservative Wets really have lived up to their name on this. Shame, because they're meant to be my tribe.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,261

    Leon said:

    Look at Scruton’s study. Beautiful and yet full of utility

    You could spend happy decades there


    As long as Scruton wasn't there.
    The loss is yours, I fear

    I went to some Scruton lectures as a student at UCL, and some of his books are superb. He is great on religion and modern philosophy, fun on wine and culture

    I learned more about philosophy from this one book by him than I did from my 3 year degree


    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Modern-Philosophy-Introduction-Roger-Scruton/dp/1844131068

    But more importantly, he was apparently brilliant company: a fine story teller but also fond of a drink and a joke and with a mind replete with wisdom and learning

    He is also probably the one postwar British intellectual with serious influence worldwide: on conservatives everywhere

    An example is the Italian PM Georgia Meloni:

    "In her autobiography, I am Giorgia, Meloni describes Scruton as the greatest influence on her party, indeed the most important guide to all European liberal-conservative forces. Citing him in several passages, she admits: “I’m quoting him too often, but it’s his own fault for writing so many interesting things."

    https://unherd.com/2023/04/can-roger-scruton-save-the-european-right/

    Can that be said of any other British intellectual since, say, Russell or Keynes? No



  • TazTaz Posts: 14,372
    Andy_JS said:

    Taz said:

    The Post Office Scandal just gets worse.

    Surely there has to be criminal prosecutions as a result of it.

    https://x.com/tomwitherow/status/1734556868993855657?s=61&t=s0ae0IFncdLS1Dc7J0P_TQ

    If you haven't already seen it, watch some of Jarnail Singh's testimony. It's almost unbelievable how poor he is as a witness.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V20Urz8r9Q4
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mh927S2LEvc
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E5NH_KefMuo
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CCJZHxRhUfE

    Report by Nick Wallis.

    https://www.postofficescandal.uk/post/more-singhd-against-than-singh-ing/
    I read Nick Wallis’s report and it was pitiful

    I’ll,watch this, thanks.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,372

    Well


    Haven’t we all !
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,371

    May I be blunt? It is just fucking unbelievable that so much government bandwidth and parliamentary time is being taken up with this Rwanda nonsense when there is so much else to do. Especially as it's all a red herring when legal migration is so high. Fiddling while Rome burns springs to mind. Resources should obviously be spent on clearing the asylum-seekers backlog and yes, deporting people who have no valid claim to be here, rather than on non-existent flights to Rwanda.

    To my mind, this government has committed lots of sins. But the greatest one of all is using all its time and energy to enact an absurd policy that clearly won't have any significant impact on migration, illegal or legal. Meanwhile, public services are left to rot.

    Especially given the massive crisis finally unfolding at OFSTED, who have finally bowed to pressure and effectively cancelled all inspections (although in typical cowardly Spielman fashion, she's phrased it differently):

    https://schoolsweek.co.uk/ruth-perry-schools-can-defer-ofsted-inspections-until-2024/
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,371

    DavidL said:

    I thought sir Keir was pretty poor on Today this morning but the traffic did not have me in the most charitable of moods. It’s not often that promises of boring diligence sound attractive.

    But then I heard the Conservatives. Christ on a bike. There are morons who think Parliamentary sovereignty means we are not bound by any international agreements. There are closet racists who think that Rwanda will just do whatever they are told. There are people, struggling to find an adjective short of fascist, who think it’s ok to exclude the courts from any kind of review of executive action no matter what.

    Boring, dull and nothing beyond the normal level of incompetence started to sound better and better.

    And that's Starmer's appeal.

    I'm sure there are those on the left who are narked that he's not promising a Social Democratic Revolution. And there will be problems when some national issues don't magically vanish with a new government.

    But I'm pretty sure that it's not just me thinking "he'll have to do, whatever happens can't be worse than this."

    And provided he does, provided he stops some of this, he can be PM as long as he wants. The "Things can only get better" threshold is incredibly low right now, and all the current blue team are complicit in that.

    The Conservative Wets really have lived up to their name on this. Shame, because they're meant to be my tribe.
    I am reminded of the Soviet pessimist and the Soviet optimist.

    A Soviet pessimist says, 'Things are so bad they cannot possibly get worse.'

    An optimist says, 'they will, they really will.'
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,748
    Chris said:

    Trying to decide whether that's better or worse than the BBC not being able to type the prime minister's name without getting it wrong.

    Now telling us the MPs are about to go through the divisional lobbies.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,653
    Chris said:

    Chris said:

    Trying to decide whether that's better or worse than the BBC not being able to type the prime minister's name without getting it wrong.

    Now telling us the MPs are about to go through the divisional lobbies.
    I hope it's not going to be a long division - not sure many of those BBC arts grads understand how that works.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,859
    June 2 - 20, 2024, Rory is doing a nationwide tour (London, Edinburgh, Bath, Oxford, Cambridge) with his ‘politics on the edge’
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,371

    Chris said:

    Chris said:

    Trying to decide whether that's better or worse than the BBC not being able to type the prime minister's name without getting it wrong.

    Now telling us the MPs are about to go through the divisional lobbies.
    I hope it's not going to be a long division - not sure many of those BBC arts grads understand how that works.
    They should all go forth and multiply.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,859
    Taz said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Taz said:

    The Post Office Scandal just gets worse.

    Surely there has to be criminal prosecutions as a result of it.

    https://x.com/tomwitherow/status/1734556868993855657?s=61&t=s0ae0IFncdLS1Dc7J0P_TQ

    If you haven't already seen it, watch some of Jarnail Singh's testimony. It's almost unbelievable how poor he is as a witness.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V20Urz8r9Q4
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mh927S2LEvc
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E5NH_KefMuo
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CCJZHxRhUfE

    Report by Nick Wallis.

    https://www.postofficescandal.uk/post/more-singhd-against-than-singh-ing/
    I read Nick Wallis’s report and it was pitiful

    I’ll,watch this, thanks.
    One could speculate as to why the PO never got rid of such an obvious timeserver - who seems to have been running his own private business on the side - but it wouldn’t be politically correct.

    His attempt to explain how he got the job of ‘Head of Criminal Law’, but wasn’t actually responsible for anything he did whilst doing it, is really a true classic.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,653
    ydoethur said:

    Chris said:

    Chris said:

    Trying to decide whether that's better or worse than the BBC not being able to type the prime minister's name without getting it wrong.

    Now telling us the MPs are about to go through the divisional lobbies.
    I hope it's not going to be a long division - not sure many of those BBC arts grads understand how that works.
    They should all go forth and multiply.
    I'm surprised to hear you're an exponent of that.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,859
    edited December 2023
    269 to 337 - Noes have it on the Labour amendment

    Now the main vote…
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,371

    ydoethur said:

    Chris said:

    Chris said:

    Trying to decide whether that's better or worse than the BBC not being able to type the prime minister's name without getting it wrong.

    Now telling us the MPs are about to go through the divisional lobbies.
    I hope it's not going to be a long division - not sure many of those BBC arts grads understand how that works.
    They should all go forth and multiply.
    I'm surprised to hear you're an exponent of that.
    It's a sin of the times.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,247
    IanB2 said:

    Taz said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Taz said:

    The Post Office Scandal just gets worse.

    Surely there has to be criminal prosecutions as a result of it.

    https://x.com/tomwitherow/status/1734556868993855657?s=61&t=s0ae0IFncdLS1Dc7J0P_TQ

    If you haven't already seen it, watch some of Jarnail Singh's testimony. It's almost unbelievable how poor he is as a witness.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V20Urz8r9Q4
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mh927S2LEvc
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E5NH_KefMuo
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CCJZHxRhUfE

    Report by Nick Wallis.

    https://www.postofficescandal.uk/post/more-singhd-against-than-singh-ing/
    I read Nick Wallis’s report and it was pitiful

    I’ll,watch this, thanks.
    One could speculate as to why the PO never got rid of such an obvious timeserver - who seems to have been running his own private business on the side - but it wouldn’t be politically correct.

    His attempt to explain how he got the job of ‘Head of Criminal Law’, but wasn’t actually responsible for anything he did whilst doing it, is really a true classic.
    In my experience, poor organisations love “obvious timeservers” - they will follow the party line and not upset people by trying to introduce offensive ideas such as efficiency, ethics or accountability.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,371
    IanB2 said:

    269 to 337 - Noes have it on the Labour amendment

    That's tighter than Sunak will be comfortable with.

    Norway he can rebuild his policy's credibility now.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,549
    edited December 2023
    IanB2 said:

    Taz said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Taz said:

    The Post Office Scandal just gets worse.

    Surely there has to be criminal prosecutions as a result of it.

    https://x.com/tomwitherow/status/1734556868993855657?s=61&t=s0ae0IFncdLS1Dc7J0P_TQ

    If you haven't already seen it, watch some of Jarnail Singh's testimony. It's almost unbelievable how poor he is as a witness.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V20Urz8r9Q4
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mh927S2LEvc
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E5NH_KefMuo
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CCJZHxRhUfE

    Report by Nick Wallis.

    https://www.postofficescandal.uk/post/more-singhd-against-than-singh-ing/
    I read Nick Wallis’s report and it was pitiful

    I’ll,watch this, thanks.
    One could speculate as to why the PO never got rid of such an obvious timeserver - who seems to have been running his own private business on the side - but it wouldn’t be politically correct.

    His attempt to explain how he got the job of ‘Head of Criminal Law’, but wasn’t actually responsible for anything he did whilst doing it, is really a true classic.
    I also discovered that he served as a councillor on Crawley borough council (including on several committees) between 2007 and 2010.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,653
    IanB2 said:

    269 to 337 - Noes have it on the Labour amendment

    Hmmm 68 difference. Might give the Tory 'Five Families' pause for thought.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,371
    Taz said:

    The Post Office Scandal just gets worse.

    Surely there has to be criminal prosecutions as a result of it.

    https://x.com/tomwitherow/status/1734556868993855657?s=61&t=s0ae0IFncdLS1Dc7J0P_TQ

    There should be, but there won't be. Too many powerful people in politics, government and the legal service are too deeply implicated. If they throw the small time crooks like Wilson, Singh and Vennells to the wolves, there's a very good chance the ravening pack will devour them too.
  • So 269, there needs to be about 90 Tory abstentions for the bill to go down?

    I can’t see it, but we’ll know soon enough.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,247
    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    I thought sir Keir was pretty poor on Today this morning but the traffic did not have me in the most charitable of moods. It’s not often that promises of boring diligence sound attractive.

    But then I heard the Conservatives. Christ on a bike. There are morons who think Parliamentary sovereignty means we are not bound by any international agreements. There are closet racists who think that Rwanda will just do whatever they are told. There are people, struggling to find an adjective short of fascist, who think it’s ok to exclude the courts from any kind of review of executive action no matter what.

    Boring, dull and nothing beyond the normal level of incompetence started to sound better and better.

    And that's Starmer's appeal.

    I'm sure there are those on the left who are narked that he's not promising a Social Democratic Revolution. And there will be problems when some national issues don't magically vanish with a new government.

    But I'm pretty sure that it's not just me thinking "he'll have to do, whatever happens can't be worse than this."

    And provided he does, provided he stops some of this, he can be PM as long as he wants. The "Things can only get better" threshold is incredibly low right now, and all the current blue team are complicit in that.

    The Conservative Wets really have lived up to their name on this. Shame, because they're meant to be my tribe.
    I am reminded of the Soviet pessimist and the Soviet optimist.

    A Soviet pessimist says, 'Things are so bad they cannot possibly get worse.'

    An optimist says, 'they will, they really will.'
    The best Soviet joke.

    A man queues for meat for 6 hours. When he reaches the head of the line - no meat.

    He starts to rant and rave -“The Party has failed us!”

    A man in a leather jacket pulls him to one side - “Careful, Comrade. In the old days…” and makes a pistol gesture with his fingers.

    Late that night, the man’s wife comes home to find him sitting in the dark, staring at the wall

    “What’s wrong dear? No meat again?”

    “It’s much worse. They have run out of bullets.”
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    DavidL said:

    I thought sir Keir was pretty poor on Today this morning but the traffic did not have me in the most charitable of moods. It’s not often that promises of boring diligence sound attractive.

    But then I heard the Conservatives. Christ on a bike. There are morons who think Parliamentary sovereignty means we are not bound by any international agreements. There are closet racists who think that Rwanda will just do whatever they are told. There are people, struggling to find an adjective short of fascist, who think it’s ok to exclude the courts from any kind of review of executive action no matter what.

    Boring, dull and nothing beyond the normal level of incompetence started to sound better and better.

    And that's Starmer's appeal.

    I'm sure there are those on the left who are narked that he's not promising a Social Democratic Revolution. And there will be problems when some national issues don't magically vanish with a new government.

    But I'm pretty sure that it's not just me thinking "he'll have to do, whatever happens can't be worse than this."

    And provided he does, provided he stops some of this, he can be PM as long as he wants. The "Things can only get better" threshold is incredibly low right now, and all the current blue team are complicit in that.

    The Conservative Wets really have lived up to their name on this. Shame, because they're meant to be my tribe.
    I wonder what would have happened if Rebecca Long-Bailey had won. If she were still LotO the Gaza stuff would be causing big problems. Maybe the Lib Dem’s would be in the lead
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    HYUFD said:

    Yes immigration is an issue especially for Conservative voters but cost of living is still the biggest concern for most voters, as is getting inflation down so that must remain the government's main priority.

    O/T A friend sadly passed away from MND today, terrible disease I just hope progress can be made on a cure

    Condolences
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,247
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Chris said:

    Chris said:

    Trying to decide whether that's better or worse than the BBC not being able to type the prime minister's name without getting it wrong.

    Now telling us the MPs are about to go through the divisional lobbies.
    I hope it's not going to be a long division - not sure many of those BBC arts grads understand how that works.
    They should all go forth and multiply.
    I'm surprised to hear you're an exponent of that.
    It's a sin of the times.
    Now you are off on a tangent.
  • That Ukraine has held Russia off for nearly two years and done so much damage to their military is one of the greatest martial feats of the last 100 years. The idea that the US might abandon them now to appease a few Putin-worshiping Republicans is unconscionable.



    https://twitter.com/rothschildmd/status/1734648744803742181
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,653

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Chris said:

    Chris said:

    Trying to decide whether that's better or worse than the BBC not being able to type the prime minister's name without getting it wrong.

    Now telling us the MPs are about to go through the divisional lobbies.
    I hope it's not going to be a long division - not sure many of those BBC arts grads understand how that works.
    They should all go forth and multiply.
    I'm surprised to hear you're an exponent of that.
    It's a sin of the times.
    Now you are off on a tangent.
    Cos that what he does.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,261
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    I thought sir Keir was pretty poor on Today this morning but the traffic did not have me in the most charitable of moods. It’s not often that promises of boring diligence sound attractive.

    But then I heard the Conservatives. Christ on a bike. There are morons who think Parliamentary sovereignty means we are not bound by any international agreements. There are closet racists who think that Rwanda will just do whatever they are told. There are people, struggling to find an adjective short of fascist, who think it’s ok to exclude the courts from any kind of review of executive action no matter what.

    Boring, dull and nothing beyond the normal level of incompetence started to sound better and better.

    And that's Starmer's appeal.

    I'm sure there are those on the left who are narked that he's not promising a Social Democratic Revolution. And there will be problems when some national issues don't magically vanish with a new government.

    But I'm pretty sure that it's not just me thinking "he'll have to do, whatever happens can't be worse than this."

    And provided he does, provided he stops some of this, he can be PM as long as he wants. The "Things can only get better" threshold is incredibly low right now, and all the current blue team are complicit in that.

    The Conservative Wets really have lived up to their name on this. Shame, because they're meant to be my tribe.
    Driving home, the rain and the traffic was even worse but listening to the representative of the One Nation Tory group almost had me weeping. That a Conservative seriously had to argue that the rule of law and judicial intervention are an essential part of the democratic process and acknowledge that a lot of his colleagues disagreed with him… it just beggars belief.

    The disease that infected US Republicans 6-7 years ago is here. And it frankly sickens me.
    Hysterical nonsense

    A large chunk of the Tory Party believes the government has lost all control of immigration - legal and illegal, and is incapable of rectifying this

    AND THEY HAVE A POINT

    The fact that some egregious twerps like Mark Francois are involved on the anti-government side, or that Rwanda is a debacle of a policy, does not make this observation less true
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,371

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Chris said:

    Chris said:

    Trying to decide whether that's better or worse than the BBC not being able to type the prime minister's name without getting it wrong.

    Now telling us the MPs are about to go through the divisional lobbies.
    I hope it's not going to be a long division - not sure many of those BBC arts grads understand how that works.
    They should all go forth and multiply.
    I'm surprised to hear you're an exponent of that.
    It's a sin of the times.
    Now you are off on a tangent.
    Cos that what he does.
    Sadly though I'm busy so I can't be pi-eyed.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,261

    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    I thought sir Keir was pretty poor on Today this morning but the traffic did not have me in the most charitable of moods. It’s not often that promises of boring diligence sound attractive.

    But then I heard the Conservatives. Christ on a bike. There are morons who think Parliamentary sovereignty means we are not bound by any international agreements. There are closet racists who think that Rwanda will just do whatever they are told. There are people, struggling to find an adjective short of fascist, who think it’s ok to exclude the courts from any kind of review of executive action no matter what.

    Boring, dull and nothing beyond the normal level of incompetence started to sound better and better.

    And that's Starmer's appeal.

    I'm sure there are those on the left who are narked that he's not promising a Social Democratic Revolution. And there will be problems when some national issues don't magically vanish with a new government.

    But I'm pretty sure that it's not just me thinking "he'll have to do, whatever happens can't be worse than this."

    And provided he does, provided he stops some of this, he can be PM as long as he wants. The "Things can only get better" threshold is incredibly low right now, and all the current blue team are complicit in that.

    The Conservative Wets really have lived up to their name on this. Shame, because they're meant to be my tribe.
    I am reminded of the Soviet pessimist and the Soviet optimist.

    A Soviet pessimist says, 'Things are so bad they cannot possibly get worse.'

    An optimist says, 'they will, they really will.'
    The best Soviet joke.

    A man queues for meat for 6 hours. When he reaches the head of the line - no meat.

    He starts to rant and rave -“The Party has failed us!”

    A man in a leather jacket pulls him to one side - “Careful, Comrade. In the old days…” and makes a pistol gesture with his fingers.

    Late that night, the man’s wife comes home to find him sitting in the dark, staring at the wall

    “What’s wrong dear? No meat again?”

    “It’s much worse. They have run out of bullets.”
    That is a good one. Spassibo
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    I thought sir Keir was pretty poor on Today this morning but the traffic did not have me in the most charitable of moods. It’s not often that promises of boring diligence sound attractive.

    But then I heard the Conservatives. Christ on a bike. There are morons who think Parliamentary sovereignty means we are not bound by any international agreements. There are closet racists who think that Rwanda will just do whatever they are told. There are people, struggling to find an adjective short of fascist, who think it’s ok to exclude the courts from any kind of review of executive action no matter what.

    Boring, dull and nothing beyond the normal level of incompetence started to sound better and better.

    And that's Starmer's appeal.

    I'm sure there are those on the left who are narked that he's not promising a Social Democratic Revolution. And there will be problems when some national issues don't magically vanish with a new government.

    But I'm pretty sure that it's not just me thinking "he'll have to do, whatever happens can't be worse than this."

    And provided he does, provided he stops some of this, he can be PM as long as he wants. The "Things can only get better" threshold is incredibly low right now, and all the current blue team are complicit in that.

    The Conservative Wets really have lived up to their name on this. Shame, because they're meant to be my tribe.
    Driving home, the rain and the traffic was even worse but listening to the representative of the One Nation Tory group almost had me weeping. That a Conservative seriously had to argue that the rule of law and judicial intervention are an essential part of the democratic process and acknowledge that a lot of his colleagues disagreed with him… it just beggars belief.

    The disease that infected US Republicans 6-7 years ago is here. And it frankly sickens me.
    Hysterical nonsense

    A large chunk of the Tory Party believes the government has lost all control of immigration - legal and illegal, and is incapable of rectifying this

    AND THEY HAVE A POINT

    The fact that some egregious twerps like Mark Francois are involved on the anti-government side, or that Rwanda is a debacle of a policy, does not make this observation less true
    Hypothetically, if some malevolent government apparatchik decided that you were ripe for deportation, would you support judicial intervention in such cases?
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,372
    HYUFD said:

    Yes immigration is an issue especially for Conservative voters but cost of living is still the biggest concern for most voters, as is getting inflation down so that must remain the government's main priority.

    O/T A friend sadly passed away from MND today, terrible disease I just hope progress can be made on a cure

    Sorry for,your loss HYUFD, an awful condition.
  • MightyAlexMightyAlex Posts: 1,660
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Look at Scruton’s study. Beautiful and yet full of utility

    You could spend happy decades there


    As long as Scruton wasn't there.
    The loss is yours, I fear

    I went to some Scruton lectures as a student at UCL, and some of his books are superb. He is great on religion and modern philosophy, fun on wine and culture

    I learned more about philosophy from this one book by him than I did from my 3 year degree


    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Modern-Philosophy-Introduction-Roger-Scruton/dp/1844131068

    But more importantly, he was apparently brilliant company: a fine story teller but also fond of a drink and a joke and with a mind replete with wisdom and learning

    He is also probably the one postwar British intellectual with serious influence worldwide: on conservatives everywhere

    An example is the Italian PM Georgia Meloni:

    "In her autobiography, I am Giorgia, Meloni describes Scruton as the greatest influence on her party, indeed the most important guide to all European liberal-conservative forces. Citing him in several passages, she admits: “I’m quoting him too often, but it’s his own fault for writing so many interesting things."

    https://unherd.com/2023/04/can-roger-scruton-save-the-european-right/

    Can that be said of any other British intellectual since, say, Russell or Keynes? No



    These aged philosopher seem to deteriorate to a parody of their prime years. I'm sure a younger swash buckling Scruton was worth the fee. But when the older, cognitively dodderier version turned up for 'thought for the day' well I'd rather another Jesus parable.
  • HYUFD said:

    Yes immigration is an issue especially for Conservative voters but cost of living is still the biggest concern for most voters, as is getting inflation down so that must remain the government's main priority.

    O/T A friend sadly passed away from MND today, terrible disease I just hope progress can be made on a cure

    Condolences.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,859
    edited December 2023
    Latest news from the IOW council is that the local landmark ‘devil’s chimney’ has been lost in Sunday’s landslip. An act of god, no doubt.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,371
    edited December 2023

    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    I thought sir Keir was pretty poor on Today this morning but the traffic did not have me in the most charitable of moods. It’s not often that promises of boring diligence sound attractive.

    But then I heard the Conservatives. Christ on a bike. There are morons who think Parliamentary sovereignty means we are not bound by any international agreements. There are closet racists who think that Rwanda will just do whatever they are told. There are people, struggling to find an adjective short of fascist, who think it’s ok to exclude the courts from any kind of review of executive action no matter what.

    Boring, dull and nothing beyond the normal level of incompetence started to sound better and better.

    And that's Starmer's appeal.

    I'm sure there are those on the left who are narked that he's not promising a Social Democratic Revolution. And there will be problems when some national issues don't magically vanish with a new government.

    But I'm pretty sure that it's not just me thinking "he'll have to do, whatever happens can't be worse than this."

    And provided he does, provided he stops some of this, he can be PM as long as he wants. The "Things can only get better" threshold is incredibly low right now, and all the current blue team are complicit in that.

    The Conservative Wets really have lived up to their name on this. Shame, because they're meant to be my tribe.
    I am reminded of the Soviet pessimist and the Soviet optimist.

    A Soviet pessimist says, 'Things are so bad they cannot possibly get worse.'

    An optimist says, 'they will, they really will.'
    The best Soviet joke.

    A man queues for meat for 6 hours. When he reaches the head of the line - no meat.

    He starts to rant and rave -“The Party has failed us!”

    A man in a leather jacket pulls him to one side - “Careful, Comrade. In the old days…” and makes a pistol gesture with his fingers.

    Late that night, the man’s wife comes home to find him sitting in the dark, staring at the wall

    “What’s wrong dear? No meat again?”

    “It’s much worse. They have run out of bullets.”
    Some other good ones:

    A man walks into a shop. 'Do you have any meat, comrade?' he asks.
    The counter attendant sighs. 'Comrade, this is a fishmonger. We have no fish. The butcher with no meat is opposite.'

    What has four legs and forty teeth? A crocodile.
    What has forty legs and four teeth? The Central Committee.

    But my personal favourite:

    Brezhnev brings his old mum round to his house. As she walks in, he points out the marble floors. She doesn't look impressed. So he takes her into the main room, with rare silk hangings and best Persian carpets. But she's still unimpressed. He shows her his garage, with a dozen fast cars - no response. He takes her upstairs, and shows her the bathroom with its gold taps and perfumed soaps. She just looks bored. In desperation, he brings out his photos. 'Look, here is my fifty room dacha in the Crimea, and the yacht with twelve staterooms.'
    Finally his mother shakes her head, slowly. 'Eh, Leonid Ilich,' she says, 'you've done alright for yourself, one way and another. But I'm worried. What happens if those Bolsheviks ever come back?'

    (Real life punchline - when Brezhnev read this in a KGB report, he was deeply touched. When asked why, he said, 'it's nice people care about what happens to me.')
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,399
    DougSeal said:

    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    I thought sir Keir was pretty poor on Today this morning but the traffic did not have me in the most charitable of moods. It’s not often that promises of boring diligence sound attractive.

    But then I heard the Conservatives. Christ on a bike. There are morons who think Parliamentary sovereignty means we are not bound by any international agreements. There are closet racists who think that Rwanda will just do whatever they are told. There are people, struggling to find an adjective short of fascist, who think it’s ok to exclude the courts from any kind of review of executive action no matter what.

    Boring, dull and nothing beyond the normal level of incompetence started to sound better and better.

    And that's Starmer's appeal.

    I'm sure there are those on the left who are narked that he's not promising a Social Democratic Revolution. And there will be problems when some national issues don't magically vanish with a new government.

    But I'm pretty sure that it's not just me thinking "he'll have to do, whatever happens can't be worse than this."

    And provided he does, provided he stops some of this, he can be PM as long as he wants. The "Things can only get better" threshold is incredibly low right now, and all the current blue team are complicit in that.

    The Conservative Wets really have lived up to their name on this. Shame, because they're meant to be my tribe.
    Driving home, the rain and the traffic was even worse but listening to the representative of the One Nation Tory group almost had me weeping. That a Conservative seriously had to argue that the rule of law and judicial intervention are an essential part of the democratic process and acknowledge that a lot of his colleagues disagreed with him… it just beggars belief.

    The disease that infected US Republicans 6-7 years ago is here. And it frankly sickens me.
    Hysterical nonsense

    A large chunk of the Tory Party believes the government has lost all control of immigration - legal and illegal, and is incapable of rectifying this

    AND THEY HAVE A POINT

    The fact that some egregious twerps like Mark Francois are involved on the anti-government side, or that Rwanda is a debacle of a policy, does not make this observation less true
    Hypothetically, if some malevolent government apparatchik decided that you were ripe for deportation, would you support judicial intervention in such cases?
    He's barely ever here.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,859
    edited December 2023
    Second reading of the bill passes, 313 to 269

    Now a division on the programme motion for the future passage of the bill. Probably the same result again.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,371
    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    I thought sir Keir was pretty poor on Today this morning but the traffic did not have me in the most charitable of moods. It’s not often that promises of boring diligence sound attractive.

    But then I heard the Conservatives. Christ on a bike. There are morons who think Parliamentary sovereignty means we are not bound by any international agreements. There are closet racists who think that Rwanda will just do whatever they are told. There are people, struggling to find an adjective short of fascist, who think it’s ok to exclude the courts from any kind of review of executive action no matter what.

    Boring, dull and nothing beyond the normal level of incompetence started to sound better and better.

    And that's Starmer's appeal.

    I'm sure there are those on the left who are narked that he's not promising a Social Democratic Revolution. And there will be problems when some national issues don't magically vanish with a new government.

    But I'm pretty sure that it's not just me thinking "he'll have to do, whatever happens can't be worse than this."

    And provided he does, provided he stops some of this, he can be PM as long as he wants. The "Things can only get better" threshold is incredibly low right now, and all the current blue team are complicit in that.

    The Conservative Wets really have lived up to their name on this. Shame, because they're meant to be my tribe.
    Driving home, the rain and the traffic was even worse but listening to the representative of the One Nation Tory group almost had me weeping. That a Conservative seriously had to argue that the rule of law and judicial intervention are an essential part of the democratic process and acknowledge that a lot of his colleagues disagreed with him… it just beggars belief.

    The disease that infected US Republicans 6-7 years ago is here. And it frankly sickens me.
    Hysterical nonsense
    Can I send you a bill for my irony meter?
  • 313 - 269 44
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,859
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    I thought sir Keir was pretty poor on Today this morning but the traffic did not have me in the most charitable of moods. It’s not often that promises of boring diligence sound attractive.

    But then I heard the Conservatives. Christ on a bike. There are morons who think Parliamentary sovereignty means we are not bound by any international agreements. There are closet racists who think that Rwanda will just do whatever they are told. There are people, struggling to find an adjective short of fascist, who think it’s ok to exclude the courts from any kind of review of executive action no matter what.

    Boring, dull and nothing beyond the normal level of incompetence started to sound better and better.

    And that's Starmer's appeal.

    I'm sure there are those on the left who are narked that he's not promising a Social Democratic Revolution. And there will be problems when some national issues don't magically vanish with a new government.

    But I'm pretty sure that it's not just me thinking "he'll have to do, whatever happens can't be worse than this."

    And provided he does, provided he stops some of this, he can be PM as long as he wants. The "Things can only get better" threshold is incredibly low right now, and all the current blue team are complicit in that.

    The Conservative Wets really have lived up to their name on this. Shame, because they're meant to be my tribe.
    I am reminded of the Soviet pessimist and the Soviet optimist.

    A Soviet pessimist says, 'Things are so bad they cannot possibly get worse.'

    An optimist says, 'they will, they really will.'
    The best Soviet joke.

    A man queues for meat for 6 hours. When he reaches the head of the line - no meat.

    He starts to rant and rave -“The Party has failed us!”

    A man in a leather jacket pulls him to one side - “Careful, Comrade. In the old days…” and makes a pistol gesture with his fingers.

    Late that night, the man’s wife comes home to find him sitting in the dark, staring at the wall

    “What’s wrong dear? No meat again?”

    “It’s much worse. They have run out of bullets.”
    Some other good ones:

    A man walks into a shop. 'Do you have any meat, comrade?' he asks.
    The counter attendant sighs. 'Comrade, this is a fishmonger. We have no fish. The butcher with no meat is opposite.'

    What has four legs and forty teeth? A crocodile.
    What has forty legs and four teeth? The Central Committee.

    But my personal favourite:

    Brezhnev brings his old mum round to his house. As she walks in, he points out the marble floors. She doesn't look impressed. So he takes her into the main room, with rare silk hangings and best Persian carpets. But she's still unimpressed. He shows her his garage, with a dozen fast cars - no response. He takes her upstairs, and shows her the bathroom with its gold taps and perfumed soaps. She just looks bored. In desperation, he brings out his photos. 'Look, here is my fifty room dacha in the Crimea, and the yacht with twelve staterooms.'
    Finally his mother shakes her head, slowly. 'Eh, Leonid Ilich,' she says, 'you've done alright for yourself, one way and another. But I'm worried. What happens if those Bolsheviks ever come back?'

    (Real life punchline - when Brezhnev read this in a KGB report, he was deeply touched. When asked why, he said, 'it's nice people care about what happens to me.')
    You’re very slow, with that first one ;)
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,643
    313 ouch.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,071

    That Ukraine has held Russia off for nearly two years and done so much damage to their military is one of the greatest martial feats of the last 100 years. The idea that the US might abandon them now to appease a few Putin-worshiping Republicans is unconscionable.



    https://twitter.com/rothschildmd/status/1734648744803742181

    The lesson was seemingly learned that doing nothing for sake of a new 'peace' did not work, since that was tried before and led to this. Yet it really does look as though Ukraine is going to be cut loose, since even if a majority of the US public still support them, it's not overwhelming like it used to be and is so political that even the pro side will probably reduce what they will attempt, given the political competition will be about giving less, not more.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,371
    edited December 2023
    IanB2 said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    I thought sir Keir was pretty poor on Today this morning but the traffic did not have me in the most charitable of moods. It’s not often that promises of boring diligence sound attractive.

    But then I heard the Conservatives. Christ on a bike. There are morons who think Parliamentary sovereignty means we are not bound by any international agreements. There are closet racists who think that Rwanda will just do whatever they are told. There are people, struggling to find an adjective short of fascist, who think it’s ok to exclude the courts from any kind of review of executive action no matter what.

    Boring, dull and nothing beyond the normal level of incompetence started to sound better and better.

    And that's Starmer's appeal.

    I'm sure there are those on the left who are narked that he's not promising a Social Democratic Revolution. And there will be problems when some national issues don't magically vanish with a new government.

    But I'm pretty sure that it's not just me thinking "he'll have to do, whatever happens can't be worse than this."

    And provided he does, provided he stops some of this, he can be PM as long as he wants. The "Things can only get better" threshold is incredibly low right now, and all the current blue team are complicit in that.

    The Conservative Wets really have lived up to their name on this. Shame, because they're meant to be my tribe.
    I am reminded of the Soviet pessimist and the Soviet optimist.

    A Soviet pessimist says, 'Things are so bad they cannot possibly get worse.'

    An optimist says, 'they will, they really will.'
    The best Soviet joke.

    A man queues for meat for 6 hours. When he reaches the head of the line - no meat.

    He starts to rant and rave -“The Party has failed us!”

    A man in a leather jacket pulls him to one side - “Careful, Comrade. In the old days…” and makes a pistol gesture with his fingers.

    Late that night, the man’s wife comes home to find him sitting in the dark, staring at the wall

    “What’s wrong dear? No meat again?”

    “It’s much worse. They have run out of bullets.”
    Some other good ones:

    A man walks into a shop. 'Do you have any meat, comrade?' he asks.
    The counter attendant sighs. 'Comrade, this is a fishmonger. We have no fish. The butcher with no meat is opposite.'

    What has four legs and forty teeth? A crocodile.
    What has forty legs and four teeth? The Central Committee.

    But my personal favourite:

    Brezhnev brings his old mum round to his house. As she walks in, he points out the marble floors. She doesn't look impressed. So he takes her into the main room, with rare silk hangings and best Persian carpets. But she's still unimpressed. He shows her his garage, with a dozen fast cars - no response. He takes her upstairs, and shows her the bathroom with its gold taps and perfumed soaps. She just looks bored. In desperation, he brings out his photos. 'Look, here is my fifty room dacha in the Crimea, and the yacht with twelve staterooms.'
    Finally his mother shakes her head, slowly. 'Eh, Leonid Ilich,' she says, 'you've done alright for yourself, one way and another. But I'm worried. What happens if those Bolsheviks ever come back?'

    (Real life punchline - when Brezhnev read this in a KGB report, he was deeply touched. When asked why, he said, 'it's nice people care about what happens to me.')
    You’re very slow, with that first one ;)
    The fishy bit was how quick you were off the mark.

    Try this one then.

    A flock of sheep are panicking, trying to force through the Turkish border. A guard stops them and asks why.
    'Beria's ordered the NKVD to arrest all elephants,' said one sheep.
    'But you're not elephants!' pointed out the guard.
    'You try f***ing telling the NKVD that!' said the sheep.
  • Pretty comfortable for Sunak there, in the end.

    Lives to fight another day. But it feels like the crunch moment has been deferred to the new year
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,247
    ydoethur said:

    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    I thought sir Keir was pretty poor on Today this morning but the traffic did not have me in the most charitable of moods. It’s not often that promises of boring diligence sound attractive.

    But then I heard the Conservatives. Christ on a bike. There are morons who think Parliamentary sovereignty means we are not bound by any international agreements. There are closet racists who think that Rwanda will just do whatever they are told. There are people, struggling to find an adjective short of fascist, who think it’s ok to exclude the courts from any kind of review of executive action no matter what.

    Boring, dull and nothing beyond the normal level of incompetence started to sound better and better.

    And that's Starmer's appeal.

    I'm sure there are those on the left who are narked that he's not promising a Social Democratic Revolution. And there will be problems when some national issues don't magically vanish with a new government.

    But I'm pretty sure that it's not just me thinking "he'll have to do, whatever happens can't be worse than this."

    And provided he does, provided he stops some of this, he can be PM as long as he wants. The "Things can only get better" threshold is incredibly low right now, and all the current blue team are complicit in that.

    The Conservative Wets really have lived up to their name on this. Shame, because they're meant to be my tribe.
    Driving home, the rain and the traffic was even worse but listening to the representative of the One Nation Tory group almost had me weeping. That a Conservative seriously had to argue that the rule of law and judicial intervention are an essential part of the democratic process and acknowledge that a lot of his colleagues disagreed with him… it just beggars belief.

    The disease that infected US Republicans 6-7 years ago is here. And it frankly sickens me.
    Hysterical nonsense
    Can I send you a bill for my irony meter?
    Is this yours?


  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,071

    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    I thought sir Keir was pretty poor on Today this morning but the traffic did not have me in the most charitable of moods. It’s not often that promises of boring diligence sound attractive.

    But then I heard the Conservatives. Christ on a bike. There are morons who think Parliamentary sovereignty means we are not bound by any international agreements. There are closet racists who think that Rwanda will just do whatever they are told. There are people, struggling to find an adjective short of fascist, who think it’s ok to exclude the courts from any kind of review of executive action no matter what.

    Boring, dull and nothing beyond the normal level of incompetence started to sound better and better.

    And that's Starmer's appeal.

    I'm sure there are those on the left who are narked that he's not promising a Social Democratic Revolution. And there will be problems when some national issues don't magically vanish with a new government.

    But I'm pretty sure that it's not just me thinking "he'll have to do, whatever happens can't be worse than this."

    And provided he does, provided he stops some of this, he can be PM as long as he wants. The "Things can only get better" threshold is incredibly low right now, and all the current blue team are complicit in that.

    The Conservative Wets really have lived up to their name on this. Shame, because they're meant to be my tribe.
    I am reminded of the Soviet pessimist and the Soviet optimist.

    A Soviet pessimist says, 'Things are so bad they cannot possibly get worse.'

    An optimist says, 'they will, they really will.'
    The best Soviet joke.

    A man queues for meat for 6 hours. When he reaches the head of the line - no meat.

    He starts to rant and rave -“The Party has failed us!”

    A man in a leather jacket pulls him to one side - “Careful, Comrade. In the old days…” and makes a pistol gesture with his fingers.

    Late that night, the man’s wife comes home to find him sitting in the dark, staring at the wall

    “What’s wrong dear? No meat again?”

    “It’s much worse. They have run out of bullets.”
    And the era that spawned those jokes is somehow seen positively by the current cabal in the country.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,371

    ydoethur said:

    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    I thought sir Keir was pretty poor on Today this morning but the traffic did not have me in the most charitable of moods. It’s not often that promises of boring diligence sound attractive.

    But then I heard the Conservatives. Christ on a bike. There are morons who think Parliamentary sovereignty means we are not bound by any international agreements. There are closet racists who think that Rwanda will just do whatever they are told. There are people, struggling to find an adjective short of fascist, who think it’s ok to exclude the courts from any kind of review of executive action no matter what.

    Boring, dull and nothing beyond the normal level of incompetence started to sound better and better.

    And that's Starmer's appeal.

    I'm sure there are those on the left who are narked that he's not promising a Social Democratic Revolution. And there will be problems when some national issues don't magically vanish with a new government.

    But I'm pretty sure that it's not just me thinking "he'll have to do, whatever happens can't be worse than this."

    And provided he does, provided he stops some of this, he can be PM as long as he wants. The "Things can only get better" threshold is incredibly low right now, and all the current blue team are complicit in that.

    The Conservative Wets really have lived up to their name on this. Shame, because they're meant to be my tribe.
    Driving home, the rain and the traffic was even worse but listening to the representative of the One Nation Tory group almost had me weeping. That a Conservative seriously had to argue that the rule of law and judicial intervention are an essential part of the democratic process and acknowledge that a lot of his colleagues disagreed with him… it just beggars belief.

    The disease that infected US Republicans 6-7 years ago is here. And it frankly sickens me.
    Hysterical nonsense
    Can I send you a bill for my irony meter?
    Is this yours?


    No.

    Mine's in sort of little pieces surrounded by a large black mark where the explosion happened.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,371
    IanB2 said:

    Latest news from the IOW council is that the local landmark ‘devil’s chimney’ has been lost in Sunday’s landslip. An act of god, no doubt.

    Is it Satan yet?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,859
    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    I thought sir Keir was pretty poor on Today this morning but the traffic did not have me in the most charitable of moods. It’s not often that promises of boring diligence sound attractive.

    But then I heard the Conservatives. Christ on a bike. There are morons who think Parliamentary sovereignty means we are not bound by any international agreements. There are closet racists who think that Rwanda will just do whatever they are told. There are people, struggling to find an adjective short of fascist, who think it’s ok to exclude the courts from any kind of review of executive action no matter what.

    Boring, dull and nothing beyond the normal level of incompetence started to sound better and better.

    And that's Starmer's appeal.

    I'm sure there are those on the left who are narked that he's not promising a Social Democratic Revolution. And there will be problems when some national issues don't magically vanish with a new government.

    But I'm pretty sure that it's not just me thinking "he'll have to do, whatever happens can't be worse than this."

    And provided he does, provided he stops some of this, he can be PM as long as he wants. The "Things can only get better" threshold is incredibly low right now, and all the current blue team are complicit in that.

    The Conservative Wets really have lived up to their name on this. Shame, because they're meant to be my tribe.
    Driving home, the rain and the traffic was even worse but listening to the representative of the One Nation Tory group almost had me weeping. That a Conservative seriously had to argue that the rule of law and judicial intervention are an essential part of the democratic process and acknowledge that a lot of his colleagues disagreed with him… it just beggars belief.

    The disease that infected US Republicans 6-7 years ago is here. And it frankly sickens me.
    Hysterical nonsense

    A large chunk of the Tory Party believes the government has lost all control of immigration - legal and illegal, and is incapable of rectifying this

    AND THEY HAVE A POINT

    The fact that some egregious twerps like Mark Francois are involved on the anti-government side, or that Rwanda is a debacle of a policy, does not make this observation less true
    Looking at it dispassionately, it’s difficult not to conclude that immigration is mostly driven by ‘pull’ factors - how many people we actually need - and not so much ‘push’ factors such as how many people want to come here and how the authorities try to regulate the numbers.

    Closing off the supply of young Europeans coming here prior to Brexit has simply led to much larger numbers of non-Europeans arriving.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,859

    Pretty comfortable for Sunak there, in the end.

    Lives to fight another day. But it feels like the crunch moment has been deferred to the new year

    If he’s promised both sets of opponents deferred gratification, then his chicken will surely be roosting some time soon.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,859
    edited December 2023
    Programme motion passes 332 to 61

    Looks like the opponents are in the pub already
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,817
    edited December 2023
    IanB2 said:

    Pretty comfortable for Sunak there, in the end.

    Lives to fight another day. But it feels like the crunch moment has been deferred to the new year

    If he’s promised both sets of opponents deferred gratification, then his chicken will surely be roosting some time soon.
    It will presumably get blocked/delayed in the Lords so it doesn't make any difference whats been promised as it can be timed out before the election.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,643
    It will be interesting to see which 37 Tory MPs failed to back the motion today. Possibly more if the DUP backed it. Not that far off the numbers needed to challenge Rishi.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,859
    kle4 said:

    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    I thought sir Keir was pretty poor on Today this morning but the traffic did not have me in the most charitable of moods. It’s not often that promises of boring diligence sound attractive.

    But then I heard the Conservatives. Christ on a bike. There are morons who think Parliamentary sovereignty means we are not bound by any international agreements. There are closet racists who think that Rwanda will just do whatever they are told. There are people, struggling to find an adjective short of fascist, who think it’s ok to exclude the courts from any kind of review of executive action no matter what.

    Boring, dull and nothing beyond the normal level of incompetence started to sound better and better.

    And that's Starmer's appeal.

    I'm sure there are those on the left who are narked that he's not promising a Social Democratic Revolution. And there will be problems when some national issues don't magically vanish with a new government.

    But I'm pretty sure that it's not just me thinking "he'll have to do, whatever happens can't be worse than this."

    And provided he does, provided he stops some of this, he can be PM as long as he wants. The "Things can only get better" threshold is incredibly low right now, and all the current blue team are complicit in that.

    The Conservative Wets really have lived up to their name on this. Shame, because they're meant to be my tribe.
    I am reminded of the Soviet pessimist and the Soviet optimist.

    A Soviet pessimist says, 'Things are so bad they cannot possibly get worse.'

    An optimist says, 'they will, they really will.'
    The best Soviet joke.

    A man queues for meat for 6 hours. When he reaches the head of the line - no meat.

    He starts to rant and rave -“The Party has failed us!”

    A man in a leather jacket pulls him to one side - “Careful, Comrade. In the old days…” and makes a pistol gesture with his fingers.

    Late that night, the man’s wife comes home to find him sitting in the dark, staring at the wall

    “What’s wrong dear? No meat again?”

    “It’s much worse. They have run out of bullets.”
    And the era that spawned those jokes is somehow seen positively by the current cabal in the country.
    No, it’s merely Nick Palmer’s student fantasy.
  • Jonathan said:

    It will be interesting to see which 37 Tory MPs failed to back the motion today. Possibly more if the DUP backed it. Not that far off the numbers needed to challenge Rishi.

    Apparently no conservative mp voted against
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,859

    IanB2 said:

    Carnyx said:

    IanB2 said:

    malcolmg said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    How can it be getting dark already, this country is like fucking Greenland

    Not helped by freak thunder storms. Nine more days and it turns around, though, starts getting lighter again.
    Yeah, but it doesn't actually FEEL like it's getting lighter til about late Feb, and the weather barely improves until mid March

    It's like living in a torture garden, we just get used to being persistently flailed by outbreaks of SLEET. In the DARK
    Ya big softie, you will not melt
    This autumn has been unusually diabolical, at least in terms of rain. An old rain butt I have in the corner of the garden was pretty much empty when I got back from my autumn trip; now it’s full, simply by rainfall collected falling into the top, which has a diameter less than the body. Weather experts say the island has had more rainfall between mid October and now than any time recorded since the 1940s. Sunday night just along the coast we had the largest landslip on the island since at least the 1990s, putting a cafe, the main road, and some residential properties perilously close to the new cliff/ridge edge. And, as of yesterday morning, the land there was still moving. The conservatory roof I spent £10,000 replacing after it was bust by storm Eunice is leaking already.
    The moment I started reading - I wondered about landslips, and look what happens in the next sentence. Some on the coast in westmost Dorset too though they are always having them and it's not easy to be sure if it's just media attention/inattention. This sort of local judgement, from you, is quite different.


    Must be this one?

    https://www.countypress.co.uk/news/23982519.bonchurch-landslide-latest-isle-wight-council/
    Yep. Where I live sits on the largest urban landslip complex in Northern Europe. And the problem we have is that, deep down, there’s a layer of clay sloping down towards the sea, to which the rainwater sinks, and then the other geology on top has a habit of slipping down the slope when it all gets too wet. Really, the Victorians should never have built here. But Queen Victoria’s doctor recommended the air here as uniquely suited as a cure to TB, and suddenly the whole town turned into a boomtown, with guest houses being thrown up everywhere, rampant property speculation, and for a decade or two the town was insanely fashionable; Oxford University even had outreach lectures here each summer, and the steamer delivered boatloads of summer visitors daily to the (long gone) pier.

    Anyhow, we now live near the sea, and are getting nearer every day. There’s a project up the road, digging bore holes to investigate the morphology, with a view to installing groundwater pumps deep down to extract the groundwater when it starts to build. But implementation of the pumps is still some years away.

    Twenty residential properties evacuated, one summer business probably ruined, and of the three roads into the town, two are currently closed, almost cutting off the rest of the island. And it rains, still.
    Sorry to hear about landslid and related issues affecting (to put it mildly) your neighbors.

    So much for Wight Privilege!

    Here in the great Pacific Northwest, folks are very acquainted and attuned to similar problems from similar causes. Namely large amounts of rainfall over extended periods, and interaction of all this water upon local topography and other factors, such as coastal erosion, land use and development.

    Every few years or so, there's a story on TV, in the papers, on the web, etc. about a house or other building that's been perched on top of a bluff for years, decades . . . that just slide down the hill or is in the process of doing so.
    Well, my uncle was a Hemsby fisherman, in Norfolk, and Hemsby was in the news last week because one of its roads has just fallen into the sea, leaving the houses along the road with difficult or no access. And there doesn’t seem to be any action to stop coastal erosion there. At least here, owing to our Victorian notoriety, the government is ploughing £millions into coastal defences and sub-ground interventions to try and save the town.
  • Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    I thought sir Keir was pretty poor on Today this morning but the traffic did not have me in the most charitable of moods. It’s not often that promises of boring diligence sound attractive.

    But then I heard the Conservatives. Christ on a bike. There are morons who think Parliamentary sovereignty means we are not bound by any international agreements. There are closet racists who think that Rwanda will just do whatever they are told. There are people, struggling to find an adjective short of fascist, who think it’s ok to exclude the courts from any kind of review of executive action no matter what.

    Boring, dull and nothing beyond the normal level of incompetence started to sound better and better.

    And that's Starmer's appeal.

    I'm sure there are those on the left who are narked that he's not promising a Social Democratic Revolution. And there will be problems when some national issues don't magically vanish with a new government.

    But I'm pretty sure that it's not just me thinking "he'll have to do, whatever happens can't be worse than this."

    And provided he does, provided he stops some of this, he can be PM as long as he wants. The "Things can only get better" threshold is incredibly low right now, and all the current blue team are complicit in that.

    The Conservative Wets really have lived up to their name on this. Shame, because they're meant to be my tribe.
    Driving home, the rain and the traffic was even worse but listening to the representative of the One Nation Tory group almost had me weeping. That a Conservative seriously had to argue that the rule of law and judicial intervention are an essential part of the democratic process and acknowledge that a lot of his colleagues disagreed with him… it just beggars belief.

    The disease that infected US Republicans 6-7 years ago is here. And it frankly sickens me.
    Hysterical nonsense

    A large chunk of the Tory Party believes the government has lost all control of immigration - legal and illegal, and is incapable of rectifying this

    AND THEY HAVE A POINT

    The fact that some egregious twerps like Mark Francois are involved on the anti-government side, or that Rwanda is a debacle of a policy, does not make this observation less true
    But, as someone once said, they're being Gaylording Ponceybootses about this.

    We have a governing party prepared to pass a "Black Is White" law. There's no getting around it, and that's absurd.

    For this scheme to work, it needs to be "We don't give a stuff, we're knowingly sending valid asylum claimants to a hellhole whilst taking the dodgy one back into the UK" law. Say it out loud, if it's what you really think.

    As for the rest of it, acknowledge that you've screwed up. By making an economy that only works if you import workers. And having an asylum system that you can't be bothered to make function, so is utterly gummed up.

    But no government can do that. So.like a teacher who has lost control of their Year 9 class, they shout ever more blood curdling threats ever more loudly.

    It doesn't work.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,859
    And the adjournment motion concerns Crohns and Colitis disease. Time to go have a sit down, I think….
  • IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    I thought sir Keir was pretty poor on Today this morning but the traffic did not have me in the most charitable of moods. It’s not often that promises of boring diligence sound attractive.

    But then I heard the Conservatives. Christ on a bike. There are morons who think Parliamentary sovereignty means we are not bound by any international agreements. There are closet racists who think that Rwanda will just do whatever they are told. There are people, struggling to find an adjective short of fascist, who think it’s ok to exclude the courts from any kind of review of executive action no matter what.

    Boring, dull and nothing beyond the normal level of incompetence started to sound better and better.

    And that's Starmer's appeal.

    I'm sure there are those on the left who are narked that he's not promising a Social Democratic Revolution. And there will be problems when some national issues don't magically vanish with a new government.

    But I'm pretty sure that it's not just me thinking "he'll have to do, whatever happens can't be worse than this."

    And provided he does, provided he stops some of this, he can be PM as long as he wants. The "Things can only get better" threshold is incredibly low right now, and all the current blue team are complicit in that.

    The Conservative Wets really have lived up to their name on this. Shame, because they're meant to be my tribe.
    Driving home, the rain and the traffic was even worse but listening to the representative of the One Nation Tory group almost had me weeping. That a Conservative seriously had to argue that the rule of law and judicial intervention are an essential part of the democratic process and acknowledge that a lot of his colleagues disagreed with him… it just beggars belief.

    The disease that infected US Republicans 6-7 years ago is here. And it frankly sickens me.
    Hysterical nonsense

    A large chunk of the Tory Party believes the government has lost all control of immigration - legal and illegal, and is incapable of rectifying this

    AND THEY HAVE A POINT

    The fact that some egregious twerps like Mark Francois are involved on the anti-government side, or that Rwanda is a debacle of a policy, does not make this observation less true
    Looking at it dispassionately, it’s difficult not to conclude that immigration is mostly driven by ‘pull’ factors - how many people we actually need - and not so much ‘push’ factors such as how many people want to come here and how the authorities try to regulate the numbers.

    Closing off the supply of young Europeans coming here prior to Brexit has simply led to much larger numbers of non-Europeans arriving.
    And the hilarious irony?

    Young Europeans were way more likely to return home. For the weekend, for the summer, forever.

    If you voted Brexit to reduce immigration and keep Britain white and Christian... Boy, did they lie to you.
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,275
    So no Tory MPs voted against . The media have gone into overdrive as the obnoxious vile scum sucking turd returned to remind us of the joys of the Brexit wars . The ERG need to just stfu or join Reform and that goes for the rest of the single digit IQ cult .
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,275

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    I thought sir Keir was pretty poor on Today this morning but the traffic did not have me in the most charitable of moods. It’s not often that promises of boring diligence sound attractive.

    But then I heard the Conservatives. Christ on a bike. There are morons who think Parliamentary sovereignty means we are not bound by any international agreements. There are closet racists who think that Rwanda will just do whatever they are told. There are people, struggling to find an adjective short of fascist, who think it’s ok to exclude the courts from any kind of review of executive action no matter what.

    Boring, dull and nothing beyond the normal level of incompetence started to sound better and better.

    And that's Starmer's appeal.

    I'm sure there are those on the left who are narked that he's not promising a Social Democratic Revolution. And there will be problems when some national issues don't magically vanish with a new government.

    But I'm pretty sure that it's not just me thinking "he'll have to do, whatever happens can't be worse than this."

    And provided he does, provided he stops some of this, he can be PM as long as he wants. The "Things can only get better" threshold is incredibly low right now, and all the current blue team are complicit in that.

    The Conservative Wets really have lived up to their name on this. Shame, because they're meant to be my tribe.
    Driving home, the rain and the traffic was even worse but listening to the representative of the One Nation Tory group almost had me weeping. That a Conservative seriously had to argue that the rule of law and judicial intervention are an essential part of the democratic process and acknowledge that a lot of his colleagues disagreed with him… it just beggars belief.

    The disease that infected US Republicans 6-7 years ago is here. And it frankly sickens me.
    Hysterical nonsense

    A large chunk of the Tory Party believes the government has lost all control of immigration - legal and illegal, and is incapable of rectifying this

    AND THEY HAVE A POINT

    The fact that some egregious twerps like Mark Francois are involved on the anti-government side, or that Rwanda is a debacle of a policy, does not make this observation less true
    Looking at it dispassionately, it’s difficult not to conclude that immigration is mostly driven by ‘pull’ factors - how many people we actually need - and not so much ‘push’ factors such as how many people want to come here and how the authorities try to regulate the numbers.

    Closing off the supply of young Europeans coming here prior to Brexit has simply led to much larger numbers of non-Europeans arriving.
    And the hilarious irony?

    Young Europeans were way more likely to return home. For the weekend, for the summer, forever.

    If you voted Brexit to reduce immigration and keep Britain white and Christian... Boy, did they lie to you.
    A lot of Leave voters are still in denial and can’t quite grasp that they’ve been bent over and banged mercilessly by the Tories and the Vote Leave cabal . Anyway at least you’ll always be able to find a good curry .
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,805
    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    I thought sir Keir was pretty poor on Today this morning but the traffic did not have me in the most charitable of moods. It’s not often that promises of boring diligence sound attractive.

    But then I heard the Conservatives. Christ on a bike. There are morons who think Parliamentary sovereignty means we are not bound by any international agreements. There are closet racists who think that Rwanda will just do whatever they are told. There are people, struggling to find an adjective short of fascist, who think it’s ok to exclude the courts from any kind of review of executive action no matter what.

    Boring, dull and nothing beyond the normal level of incompetence started to sound better and better.

    And that's Starmer's appeal.

    I'm sure there are those on the left who are narked that he's not promising a Social Democratic Revolution. And there will be problems when some national issues don't magically vanish with a new government.

    But I'm pretty sure that it's not just me thinking "he'll have to do, whatever happens can't be worse than this."

    And provided he does, provided he stops some of this, he can be PM as long as he wants. The "Things can only get better" threshold is incredibly low right now, and all the current blue team are complicit in that.

    The Conservative Wets really have lived up to their name on this. Shame, because they're meant to be my tribe.
    Driving home, the rain and the traffic was even worse but listening to the representative of the One Nation Tory group almost had me weeping. That a Conservative seriously had to argue that the rule of law and judicial intervention are an essential part of the democratic process and acknowledge that a lot of his colleagues disagreed with him… it just beggars belief.

    The disease that infected US Republicans 6-7 years ago is here. And it frankly sickens me.
    Hysterical nonsense

    A large chunk of the Tory Party believes the government has lost all control of immigration - legal and illegal, and is incapable of rectifying this

    AND THEY HAVE A POINT

    The fact that some egregious twerps like Mark Francois are involved on the anti-government side, or that Rwanda is a debacle of a policy, does not make this observation less true
    Thanks. And now I have to watch my team playing another team with completely unfair advantages such as knowing each others positions, how to pass to each other and forwards that can score goals. Life is just so unfair.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,859
    ydoethur said:

    Taz said:

    The Post Office Scandal just gets worse.

    Surely there has to be criminal prosecutions as a result of it.

    https://x.com/tomwitherow/status/1734556868993855657?s=61&t=s0ae0IFncdLS1Dc7J0P_TQ

    There should be, but there won't be. Too many powerful people in politics, government and the legal service are too deeply implicated. If they throw the small time crooks like Wilson, Singh and Vennells to the wolves, there's a very good chance the ravening pack will devour them too.
    Everyone down below was just following orders. And everyone up above was focused on the big picture and too busy to be telling those down below precisely what to do.

    It’s a situation with which history is sadly not unfamiliar.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,859
    nico679 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    I thought sir Keir was pretty poor on Today this morning but the traffic did not have me in the most charitable of moods. It’s not often that promises of boring diligence sound attractive.

    But then I heard the Conservatives. Christ on a bike. There are morons who think Parliamentary sovereignty means we are not bound by any international agreements. There are closet racists who think that Rwanda will just do whatever they are told. There are people, struggling to find an adjective short of fascist, who think it’s ok to exclude the courts from any kind of review of executive action no matter what.

    Boring, dull and nothing beyond the normal level of incompetence started to sound better and better.

    And that's Starmer's appeal.

    I'm sure there are those on the left who are narked that he's not promising a Social Democratic Revolution. And there will be problems when some national issues don't magically vanish with a new government.

    But I'm pretty sure that it's not just me thinking "he'll have to do, whatever happens can't be worse than this."

    And provided he does, provided he stops some of this, he can be PM as long as he wants. The "Things can only get better" threshold is incredibly low right now, and all the current blue team are complicit in that.

    The Conservative Wets really have lived up to their name on this. Shame, because they're meant to be my tribe.
    Driving home, the rain and the traffic was even worse but listening to the representative of the One Nation Tory group almost had me weeping. That a Conservative seriously had to argue that the rule of law and judicial intervention are an essential part of the democratic process and acknowledge that a lot of his colleagues disagreed with him… it just beggars belief.

    The disease that infected US Republicans 6-7 years ago is here. And it frankly sickens me.
    Hysterical nonsense

    A large chunk of the Tory Party believes the government has lost all control of immigration - legal and illegal, and is incapable of rectifying this

    AND THEY HAVE A POINT

    The fact that some egregious twerps like Mark Francois are involved on the anti-government side, or that Rwanda is a debacle of a policy, does not make this observation less true
    Looking at it dispassionately, it’s difficult not to conclude that immigration is mostly driven by ‘pull’ factors - how many people we actually need - and not so much ‘push’ factors such as how many people want to come here and how the authorities try to regulate the numbers.

    Closing off the supply of young Europeans coming here prior to Brexit has simply led to much larger numbers of non-Europeans arriving.
    And the hilarious irony?

    Young Europeans were way more likely to return home. For the weekend, for the summer, forever.

    If you voted Brexit to reduce immigration and keep Britain white and Christian... Boy, did they lie to you.
    A lot of Leave voters are still in denial and can’t quite grasp that they’ve been bent over and banged mercilessly by the Tories and the Vote Leave cabal . Anyway at least you’ll always be able to find a good curry .
    Breaking:

    https://www.currylife.uk/staff-shortages-a-growing-concern-for-curry-houses/
This discussion has been closed.