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Just one in ten Brits oppose an early election – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 11,685
edited December 2023 in General
Just one in ten Brits oppose an early election – politicalbetting.com

Would the British public support or oppose the UK Government calling a General Election in the next six months? (26 November)Support: 62% (–)Oppose: 10% (-2)Changes +/- 19 November pic.twitter.com/GtZILufVTb

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    My God, The Telegraph are reporting the Queen had an affair whilst married to the King and her lover then went on to marry her sister.

    https://tinyurl.com/4yw3dsnj
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,237
    I agree with Elliot. Brexit is not remotely the disaster zone many take it for

    Indeed there is now a chance for the UK to exploit Brexit freedoms. AI is a crucial area. It will be a deep irony if it is a Labour government under Starmer that “makes Brexit work”
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,125

    My God, The Telegraph are reporting the Queen had an affair whilst married to the King and her lover then went on to marry her sister.

    https://tinyurl.com/4yw3dsnj

    Nah, our own Queen's affairs were far, er, racier....
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,125
    Leon said:

    Gotta admire Larry Elliot on the Groaniad

    Telling its readers the UK economy is actually doing OK, Brexit is not a disaster, in some ways the EU is worse off = no way Rejoin will ever be a thing

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/dec/05/brexit-disaster-rejoining-channel-europe-economy

    "Keir Starmer is broadly offering continuity Rishi Sunak."

    But with a large side-order of early disappointment...
  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,197

    Leon said:

    Gotta admire Larry Elliot on the Groaniad

    Telling its readers the UK economy is actually doing OK, Brexit is not a disaster, in some ways the EU is worse off = no way Rejoin will ever be a thing

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/dec/05/brexit-disaster-rejoining-channel-europe-economy

    "Keir Starmer is broadly offering continuity Rishi Sunak."

    But with a large side-order of early disappointment...
    Best then to cut out the Starmer fiasco and go straight to newly fun washed Farage as Tory PM.
  • Options
    Striking thing is that ten percent is a minority of those currently saying they'll vote Conservative.

    Even a lot of voters who dress on the right seem to be at the Just Make It Stop phase. Apart from doomed MPs hoping to eke out a few more months in office, is the current situation good for anyone?
  • Options

    Leon said:

    Gotta admire Larry Elliot on the Groaniad

    Telling its readers the UK economy is actually doing OK, Brexit is not a disaster, in some ways the EU is worse off = no way Rejoin will ever be a thing

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/dec/05/brexit-disaster-rejoining-channel-europe-economy

    "Keir Starmer is broadly offering continuity Rishi Sunak."

    But with a large side-order of early disappointment...
    Larry Elliot alway was the Guardian's tame Lexiteer, wasn't he? The EU stops socialism in one country, so it is bad, that sort of thing.

    From his perspective, Starmer and Sunak probably do look indistinguishable.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,629
    Korea indirectly supplied more 155-mm shells for Ukraine than all European countries combined: WP
    https://m.koreatimes.co.kr/pages/article.asp?newsIdx=364468

    That will change, though, as EU production is starting to ramp up (and faster than in the U.S.).
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,125
    Leon said:

    I agree with Elliot. Brexit is not remotely the disaster zone many take it for

    Indeed there is now a chance for the UK to exploit Brexit freedoms. AI is a crucial area. It will be a deep irony if it is a Labour government under Starmer that “makes Brexit work”

    Slightly disingenuous stat in the piece: "Fifteen years ago, the US and EU economies were of a similar size; today America’s is a third bigger." Losing the UK from the EU is a significant factor in that decline. Although losing the UK from the EU is something the EU might have prevented with a bit more creative thinking. The EU being a sclerotic body - one of the better arguments for Brexit - has been shown to be painfully true.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,125

    Leon said:

    Gotta admire Larry Elliot on the Groaniad

    Telling its readers the UK economy is actually doing OK, Brexit is not a disaster, in some ways the EU is worse off = no way Rejoin will ever be a thing

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/dec/05/brexit-disaster-rejoining-channel-europe-economy

    "Keir Starmer is broadly offering continuity Rishi Sunak."

    But with a large side-order of early disappointment...
    Larry Elliot alway was the Guardian's tame Lexiteer, wasn't he? The EU stops socialism in one country, so it is bad, that sort of thing.

    From his perspective, Starmer and Sunak probably do look indistinguishable.
    But not from yours? Please share the identifying features that separate the two.
  • Options
    Pro tip, don't i) break the law and then ii) post about it on social media.

    A train fare cheat who posted tips on TikTok about how to avoid paying to travel has been caught and fined.

    East Midlands Railway (EMR) said the woman shared numerous videos on social media urging other passengers to defraud the train operator by following her advice.

    The fare dodger recorded herself talking about travelling in Derby, Tamworth and Burton-upon-Trent.

    However she was caught following an investigation and has been fined £773.

    In her posts, the TikToker - who has not been named by EMR - bragged about how she never paid full price to travel and regularly did not buy a ticket at all.

    Among her "tips" were hiding in the toilet when conductors approached and pretending her mobile was out of battery so she could not access her tickets.

    She was prosecuted for fraud following a joint investigation by EMR and British Transport Police and now also has a criminal record.


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-derbyshire-67615588
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,237

    Leon said:

    Gotta admire Larry Elliot on the Groaniad

    Telling its readers the UK economy is actually doing OK, Brexit is not a disaster, in some ways the EU is worse off = no way Rejoin will ever be a thing

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/dec/05/brexit-disaster-rejoining-channel-europe-economy

    "Keir Starmer is broadly offering continuity Rishi Sunak."

    But with a large side-order of early disappointment...
    Larry Elliot alway was the Guardian's tame Lexiteer, wasn't he? The EU stops socialism in one country, so it is bad, that sort of thing.

    From his perspective, Starmer and Sunak probably do look indistinguishable.
    No, that’s a gross mischaracterisation

    He believes the EU enforces a neo-liberal orthodoxy and infringes political sovereignty. He also makes the interesting point that Brexit may be the reason the UK is now almost alone, in Europe, in not suffering a hard right swing

    The people were heard. Eventually, their voice was obeyed. British democracy defeated the EU
  • Options

    Leon said:

    Gotta admire Larry Elliot on the Groaniad

    Telling its readers the UK economy is actually doing OK, Brexit is not a disaster, in some ways the EU is worse off = no way Rejoin will ever be a thing

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/dec/05/brexit-disaster-rejoining-channel-europe-economy

    "Keir Starmer is broadly offering continuity Rishi Sunak."

    But with a large side-order of early disappointment...
    Larry Elliot alway was the Guardian's tame Lexiteer, wasn't he? The EU stops socialism in one country, so it is bad, that sort of thing.

    From his perspective, Starmer and Sunak probably do look indistinguishable.
    I am so old that I remember Leon bemoaning that the Guardian only published (woke) nonsense, the British NY Times I believe was the description.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,283
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Gotta admire Larry Elliot on the Groaniad

    Telling its readers the UK economy is actually doing OK, Brexit is not a disaster, in some ways the EU is worse off = no way Rejoin will ever be a thing

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/dec/05/brexit-disaster-rejoining-channel-europe-economy

    "Keir Starmer is broadly offering continuity Rishi Sunak."

    But with a large side-order of early disappointment...
    Larry Elliot alway was the Guardian's tame Lexiteer, wasn't he? The EU stops socialism in one country, so it is bad, that sort of thing.

    From his perspective, Starmer and Sunak probably do look indistinguishable.
    No, that’s a gross mischaracterisation

    He believes the EU enforces a neo-liberal orthodoxy and infringes political sovereignty. He also makes the interesting point that Brexit may be the reason the UK is now almost alone, in Europe, in not suffering a hard right swing

    You didn’t bother to read the data in the lead, clearly.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,629
    edited December 2023

    Leon said:

    Gotta admire Larry Elliot on the Groaniad

    Telling its readers the UK economy is actually doing OK, Brexit is not a disaster, in some ways the EU is worse off = no way Rejoin will ever be a thing

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/dec/05/brexit-disaster-rejoining-channel-europe-economy

    "Keir Starmer is broadly offering continuity Rishi Sunak."

    But with a large side-order of early disappointment...
    Larry Elliot alway was the Guardian's tame Lexiteer, wasn't he? The EU stops socialism in one country, so it is bad, that sort of thing.

    From his perspective, Starmer and Sunak probably do look indistinguishable.
    But not from yours? Please share the identifying features that separate the two.
    Starmer has control of his party, for a start.
    Bit of a sine qua non for any PM.
  • Options

    Leon said:

    Gotta admire Larry Elliot on the Groaniad

    Telling its readers the UK economy is actually doing OK, Brexit is not a disaster, in some ways the EU is worse off = no way Rejoin will ever be a thing

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/dec/05/brexit-disaster-rejoining-channel-europe-economy

    "Keir Starmer is broadly offering continuity Rishi Sunak."

    But with a large side-order of early disappointment...
    Larry Elliot alway was the Guardian's tame Lexiteer, wasn't he? The EU stops socialism in one country, so it is bad, that sort of thing.

    From his perspective, Starmer and Sunak probably do look indistinguishable.
    But not from yours? Please share the identifying features that separate the two.
    In terms of politics, what to do with any spare cash. It's pretty clear that Sunak will use it to cut taxes, and I very much doubt that Starmer will.

    More importantly, because I'm a version of Centrist Dad, grip on reality. For a while now, Conservatives have been in la la land, ignoring the existence of arithmetic, other people and nations as independent entities et cetera. There's too much "but I really really want X to happen", even when it can't.

    No, I'm not expecting Starmer to be more than meh. And his direction of travel will be more left wing than I'd like.

    But I'm expecting it to be better than this.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,629

    Leon said:

    Gotta admire Larry Elliot on the Groaniad

    Telling its readers the UK economy is actually doing OK, Brexit is not a disaster, in some ways the EU is worse off = no way Rejoin will ever be a thing

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/dec/05/brexit-disaster-rejoining-channel-europe-economy

    "Keir Starmer is broadly offering continuity Rishi Sunak."

    But with a large side-order of early disappointment...
    Larry Elliot alway was the Guardian's tame Lexiteer, wasn't he? The EU stops socialism in one country, so it is bad, that sort of thing.

    From his perspective, Starmer and Sunak probably do look indistinguishable.
    I am so old that I remember Leon bemoaning that the Guardian only published (woke) nonsense, the British NY Times I believe was the description.
    I'm old enough to recall Hawking saying this.
    https://twitter.com/PhysInHistory/status/1731915692411134409/photo/1
  • Options
    Another ludicrous piece of manoeuvring yesterday by Sunak. The Blood Poisoning amendment - why would you oppose that?

    No wonder most remaining Tory voters want an early election. Even they can see the party is poison.
  • Options
    MattWMattW Posts: 18,567

    My God, The Telegraph are reporting the Queen had an affair whilst married to the King and her lover then went on to marry her sister.

    https://tinyurl.com/4yw3dsnj

    I need mind-bleach after the photo on the right.

    'Himmler with a Goatee' vibes.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,237
    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Gotta admire Larry Elliot on the Groaniad

    Telling its readers the UK economy is actually doing OK, Brexit is not a disaster, in some ways the EU is worse off = no way Rejoin will ever be a thing

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/dec/05/brexit-disaster-rejoining-channel-europe-economy

    "Keir Starmer is broadly offering continuity Rishi Sunak."

    But with a large side-order of early disappointment...
    Larry Elliot alway was the Guardian's tame Lexiteer, wasn't he? The EU stops socialism in one country, so it is bad, that sort of thing.

    From his perspective, Starmer and Sunak probably do look indistinguishable.
    No, that’s a gross mischaracterisation

    He believes the EU enforces a neo-liberal orthodoxy and infringes political sovereignty. He also makes the interesting point that Brexit may be the reason the UK is now almost alone, in Europe, in not suffering a hard right swing

    You didn’t bother to read the data in the lead, clearly.
    Probably because I’m not talking about data? This debate is about Larry Elliot’s Brexit opinions. I’ve been following him for years - as he’s interesting, a lefty Leaver - so I know his position well
  • Options
    Mr. Mark, to be fair, Labour reneging on the referendum we should've had was down to UK politics alone.

    Not that the EU (or, perhaps, Cameron) were sensible when there was a real risk of our departure, which ended up coming true.
  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,197
    ...
    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Gotta admire Larry Elliot on the Groaniad

    Telling its readers the UK economy is actually doing OK, Brexit is not a disaster, in some ways the EU is worse off = no way Rejoin will ever be a thing

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/dec/05/brexit-disaster-rejoining-channel-europe-economy

    "Keir Starmer is broadly offering continuity Rishi Sunak."

    But with a large side-order of early disappointment...
    Larry Elliot alway was the Guardian's tame Lexiteer, wasn't he? The EU stops socialism in one country, so it is bad, that sort of thing.

    From his perspective, Starmer and Sunak probably do look indistinguishable.
    No, that’s a gross mischaracterisation

    He believes the EU enforces a neo-liberal orthodoxy and infringes political sovereignty. He also makes the interesting point that Brexit may be the reason the UK is now almost alone, in Europe, in not suffering a hard right swing

    You didn’t bother to read the data in the lead, clearly.
    Data analysis is not a pre requisite for one of Leon's parallel threads, particularly a troll thread.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,659

    Leon said:

    Gotta admire Larry Elliot on the Groaniad

    Telling its readers the UK economy is actually doing OK, Brexit is not a disaster, in some ways the EU is worse off = no way Rejoin will ever be a thing

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/dec/05/brexit-disaster-rejoining-channel-europe-economy

    "Keir Starmer is broadly offering continuity Rishi Sunak."

    But with a large side-order of early disappointment...
    Best then to cut out the Starmer fiasco and go straight to newly fun washed Farage as Tory PM.
    Not going to happen. If grinding austerity continues under Starmer, and further deterioration of public services, the desire will not be for the hard right.
  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,197
    edited December 2023
    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    Gotta admire Larry Elliot on the Groaniad

    Telling its readers the UK economy is actually doing OK, Brexit is not a disaster, in some ways the EU is worse off = no way Rejoin will ever be a thing

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/dec/05/brexit-disaster-rejoining-channel-europe-economy

    "Keir Starmer is broadly offering continuity Rishi Sunak."

    But with a large side-order of early disappointment...
    Best then to cut out the Starmer fiasco and go straight to newly fun washed Farage as Tory PM.
    Not going to happen. If grinding austerity continues under Starmer, and further deterioration of public services, the desire will not be for the hard right.
    What then?
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,629

    Another ludicrous piece of manoeuvring yesterday by Sunak. The Blood Poisoning amendment - why would you oppose that?

    No wonder most remaining Tory voters want an early election. Even they can see the party is poison.

    Kick it into the long grass, and wait for them to die, has been government policy for a long, long time.
    It took Sunak losing control of his party for it to be overturned.
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    MattWMattW Posts: 18,567
    edited December 2023

    Pro tip, don't i) break the law and then ii) post about it on social media.

    A train fare cheat who posted tips on TikTok about how to avoid paying to travel has been caught and fined.

    East Midlands Railway (EMR) said the woman shared numerous videos on social media urging other passengers to defraud the train operator by following her advice.

    The fare dodger recorded herself talking about travelling in Derby, Tamworth and Burton-upon-Trent.

    However she was caught following an investigation and has been fined £773.

    In her posts, the TikToker - who has not been named by EMR - bragged about how she never paid full price to travel and regularly did not buy a ticket at all.

    Among her "tips" were hiding in the toilet when conductors approached and pretending her mobile was out of battery so she could not access her tickets.

    She was prosecuted for fraud following a joint investigation by EMR and British Transport Police and now also has a criminal record.


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-derbyshire-67615588

    That looks like the derisory level of fine that will encourage her to continue dodging fares, without publicising it. How long will it take for a regular traveller to avoid £773?

    I also don't understand why the BBC (or the police) has blurred the photograph of a convicted criminal.
  • Options
    MattWMattW Posts: 18,567

    Another ludicrous piece of manoeuvring yesterday by Sunak. The Blood Poisoning amendment - why would you oppose that?

    No wonder most remaining Tory voters want an early election. Even they can see the party is poison.

    Won't that be some version of "money we don't want to commit now, because it does not help us win the election"?
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,659

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    Gotta admire Larry Elliot on the Groaniad

    Telling its readers the UK economy is actually doing OK, Brexit is not a disaster, in some ways the EU is worse off = no way Rejoin will ever be a thing

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/dec/05/brexit-disaster-rejoining-channel-europe-economy

    "Keir Starmer is broadly offering continuity Rishi Sunak."

    But with a large side-order of early disappointment...
    Best then to cut out the Starmer fiasco and go straight to newly fun washed Farage as Tory PM.
    Not going to happen. If grinding austerity continues under Starmer, and further deterioration of public services, the desire will not be for the hard right.
    Who then.
    Mostly a voter strike I think. The 2028/9 election will be more like 2001.

    Starmer plays a few moves ahead, so by controlling candidate selections is putting in place a supportive parliament.

    I think opposition on the left will be nearly all outside parliamentary politics. I think the Tories will step further to the right, leaving no real place for a Farage insurgent party.
  • Options
    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,956
    @campbellclaret

    Home Secretaries who have been to Rwanda to celebrate their great scheme - 3. Migrants who have been sent - 0. Cost per Home Secretary so far (not including today’s visit) - £50million
  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,197
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    Gotta admire Larry Elliot on the Groaniad

    Telling its readers the UK economy is actually doing OK, Brexit is not a disaster, in some ways the EU is worse off = no way Rejoin will ever be a thing

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/dec/05/brexit-disaster-rejoining-channel-europe-economy

    "Keir Starmer is broadly offering continuity Rishi Sunak."

    But with a large side-order of early disappointment...
    Best then to cut out the Starmer fiasco and go straight to newly fun washed Farage as Tory PM.
    Not going to happen. If grinding austerity continues under Starmer, and further deterioration of public services, the desire will not be for the hard right.
    Who then.
    Mostly a voter strike I think. The 2028/9 election will be more like 2001.

    Starmer plays a few moves ahead, so by controlling candidate selections is putting in place a supportive parliament.

    I think opposition on the left will be nearly all outside parliamentary politics. I think the Tories will step further to the right, leaving no real place for a Farage insurgent party.
    But @MarqueeMark has declared the first Starmer term was a disaster. Surely we need a promise everything, deliver nothing populist like Nige, Suella or worse still Jenrick.
  • Options
    CiceroCicero Posts: 2,224
    edited December 2023
    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Gotta admire Larry Elliot on the Groaniad

    Telling its readers the UK economy is actually doing OK, Brexit is not a disaster, in some ways the EU is worse off = no way Rejoin will ever be a thing

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/dec/05/brexit-disaster-rejoining-channel-europe-economy

    "Keir Starmer is broadly offering continuity Rishi Sunak."

    But with a large side-order of early disappointment...
    Larry Elliot alway was the Guardian's tame Lexiteer, wasn't he? The EU stops socialism in one country, so it is bad, that sort of thing.

    From his perspective, Starmer and Sunak probably do look indistinguishable.
    No, that’s a gross mischaracterisation

    He believes the EU enforces a neo-liberal orthodoxy and infringes political sovereignty. He also makes the interesting point that Brexit may be the reason the UK is now almost alone, in Europe, in not suffering a hard right swing

    You didn’t bother to read the data in the lead, clearly.
    Quite.

    Braverman et al are regarded as extreme right even by the right in most European Countries.

    The funny thing is that the UK right wingers in the Tory Party demand even more extreme policies "otherwise we get Farage". Actually if they continue down that rabbit hole, it is probably the Conservatives who will "get Farage", and with a similar number of seats.

    The Far Right may be a chimera when it comes to Farage himself, but clearly not when we examine the government policies of even a so-called "moderate" right winger like Sunak. The Tories ARE the far right.

    Whatever his own instincts may have been, Sunak panders to the far right, as long as they are in his own party, while many Tory members pander to the far right, whether or not they are Conservatives, as we saw with the lionising of Farage at the Tory conference.

    It matters not, the punishment for the Tories at the next election will be brutal, even as it stands, and another six months of Faragist cosplay will raise the coming disaster to an ELE for the Tories.

    We have all had enough...

    "You have sat too long here for any good you have been doing. In the name of God, go!"
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,629
    An early election might be a problem for Starmer to hit the ground running.

    UK Labour Party admits it’s not ready for government — yet
    “We’d be fucked if there was an election tomorrow,” party officials say, as talks with civil service put on ice.

    https://www.politico.eu/article/uk-labour-party-admits-its-not-ready-for-government-yet/
    ...Given an election is all-but-certain in 2024, the process might have been anticipated to start soon for Keir Starmer’s Labour Party. The last time Labour came to power, under Tony Blair in 1997, the party began conversations with the civil service 16 months before the election.

    Yet the Times reported Saturday that this time round, access talks are unlikely to start before the new year — a fact confirmed to POLITICO by four senior Labour Party figures, including the one quoted above.

    “There hasn’t been enough time to get everything done yet,” a second of these officials said. They pointed to Starmer — who has to request talks in a letter to the PM — warning that he wants to “bombproof” each of his policies. “We need more time,” they added.

    A third Labour official said: “We won’t rush into access talks because we need them to be more than just surface level. There is a delivery question. We really want to be ready and not caught out.”..


    Sounds as though their priorities won't be fully decided until Jan/Feb next year.
  • Options
    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    Gotta admire Larry Elliot on the Groaniad

    Telling its readers the UK economy is actually doing OK, Brexit is not a disaster, in some ways the EU is worse off = no way Rejoin will ever be a thing

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/dec/05/brexit-disaster-rejoining-channel-europe-economy

    "Keir Starmer is broadly offering continuity Rishi Sunak."

    But with a large side-order of early disappointment...
    Best then to cut out the Starmer fiasco and go straight to newly fun washed Farage as Tory PM.
    Not going to happen. If grinding austerity continues under Starmer, and further deterioration of public services, the desire will not be for the hard right.
    Farage has gone onto I'm a Celebrity to launch his GE campaign. There are enough pockets of lunacy to see him elected somewhere. Or even if he doesn't. The Tories will be faced with a selection of halfwit shysters as leader. Or they can have a fullwit shyster in the form of the Nigel.

    The Tories have tried populist right with Boris, albeit sullied by all this woke levelling up nonsense. What people in Hartlepools want is No Services At All, but with a proper leader reminding them that its the fault of the foreigners and the scroungers and the world bank.
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,311
    No surprise. Of the 20-30% Cons supporters half of them think fuck it let's do this while half realise that every month delayed is a month more in power. I believe Rishi is in the latter half.
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    LeonLeon Posts: 47,237
    Cicero said:

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Gotta admire Larry Elliot on the Groaniad

    Telling its readers the UK economy is actually doing OK, Brexit is not a disaster, in some ways the EU is worse off = no way Rejoin will ever be a thing

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/dec/05/brexit-disaster-rejoining-channel-europe-economy

    "Keir Starmer is broadly offering continuity Rishi Sunak."

    But with a large side-order of early disappointment...
    Larry Elliot alway was the Guardian's tame Lexiteer, wasn't he? The EU stops socialism in one country, so it is bad, that sort of thing.

    From his perspective, Starmer and Sunak probably do look indistinguishable.
    No, that’s a gross mischaracterisation

    He believes the EU enforces a neo-liberal orthodoxy and infringes political sovereignty. He also makes the interesting point that Brexit may be the reason the UK is now almost alone, in Europe, in not suffering a hard right swing

    You didn’t bother to read the data in the lead, clearly.
    Quite.

    Braverman et al are regarded as extreme right even by the right in most European Countries.

    The funny thing is that the UK right wingers demand even more extreme policies "otherwise we get Farage". Actually it is probably the Conservatives who "get Farage", if they continue down that rabbit hole, and with a similar number of seats.

    The Far Right may be a chimera when it comes to Farage, but clearly not when we examine the policies of even a so-called "moderate" like Sunak. The Tories ARE the far right.

    Whatever his own instincts may have been, Sunak panders to the far right, as long as they are in his own party, while many Tory members pander to the far right, whether or not they are Conservatives, as we saw with the lionising of Farage at the Tory conference.

    It matters not, the punishment for the Tories at the next election will be brutal, even as it stands, and another six months of Faragist cosplay will raise the coming disaster to an ELE for the Tories.

    We have all had enough...

    "You have sat too long here for any good you have been doing. In the name of God, go!"
    Listen to yourself

    “The Tories ARE the Far Right”. Is that why we have historically unprecedented levels of immigration? Get a grip
  • Options
    GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,001
    Cicero said:

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Gotta admire Larry Elliot on the Groaniad

    Telling its readers the UK economy is actually doing OK, Brexit is not a disaster, in some ways the EU is worse off = no way Rejoin will ever be a thing

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/dec/05/brexit-disaster-rejoining-channel-europe-economy

    "Keir Starmer is broadly offering continuity Rishi Sunak."

    But with a large side-order of early disappointment...
    Larry Elliot alway was the Guardian's tame Lexiteer, wasn't he? The EU stops socialism in one country, so it is bad, that sort of thing.

    From his perspective, Starmer and Sunak probably do look indistinguishable.
    No, that’s a gross mischaracterisation

    He believes the EU enforces a neo-liberal orthodoxy and infringes political sovereignty. He also makes the interesting point that Brexit may be the reason the UK is now almost alone, in Europe, in not suffering a hard right swing

    You didn’t bother to read the data in the lead, clearly.
    Quite.

    Braverman et al are regarded as extreme right even by the right in most European Countries.

    The funny thing is that the UK right wingers in the Tory Party demand even more extreme policies "otherwise we get Farage". Actually if they continue down that rabbit hole, it is probably the Conservatives who will "get Farage", and with a similar number of seats.

    The Far Right may be a chimera when it comes to Farage himself, but clearly not when we examine the government policies of even a so-called "moderate" right winger like Sunak. The Tories ARE the far right.

    Whatever his own instincts may have been, Sunak panders to the far right, as long as they are in his own party, while many Tory members pander to the far right, whether or not they are Conservatives, as we saw with the lionising of Farage at the Tory conference.

    It matters not, the punishment for the Tories at the next election will be brutal, even as it stands, and another six months of Faragist cosplay will raise the coming disaster to an ELE for the Tories.

    We have all had enough...

    "You have sat too long here for any good you have been doing. In the name of God, go!"
    I see Braverman more as The Extreme Incompetent more than Extreme Right.
  • Options
    MattWMattW Posts: 18,567
    Scott_xP said:

    @campbellclaret

    Home Secretaries who have been to Rwanda to celebrate their great scheme - 3. Migrants who have been sent - 0. Cost per Home Secretary so far (not including today’s visit) - £50million

    £160 million?

    That's the entire amount pretended to be saved per annum by the recent attacks on the BBC already tipped away, then.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,659

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    Gotta admire Larry Elliot on the Groaniad

    Telling its readers the UK economy is actually doing OK, Brexit is not a disaster, in some ways the EU is worse off = no way Rejoin will ever be a thing

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/dec/05/brexit-disaster-rejoining-channel-europe-economy

    "Keir Starmer is broadly offering continuity Rishi Sunak."

    But with a large side-order of early disappointment...
    Best then to cut out the Starmer fiasco and go straight to newly fun washed Farage as Tory PM.
    Not going to happen. If grinding austerity continues under Starmer, and further deterioration of public services, the desire will not be for the hard right.
    Who then.
    Mostly a voter strike I think. The 2028/9 election will be more like 2001.

    Starmer plays a few moves ahead, so by controlling candidate selections is putting in place a supportive parliament.

    I think opposition on the left will be nearly all outside parliamentary politics. I think the Tories will step further to the right, leaving no real place for a Farage insurgent party.
    But @MarqueeMark has declared the first Starmer term was a disaster. Surely we need a promise everything, deliver nothing populist like Nige, Suella or worse still Jenrick.
    I don't think Starmers first term will be great, but it will disappoint on the left, not the right, so not a situation not conducive to rightwing populism.
  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,197
    ...
    Nigelb said:

    An early election might be a problem for Starmer to hit the ground running.

    UK Labour Party admits it’s not ready for government — yet
    “We’d be fucked if there was an election tomorrow,” party officials say, as talks with civil service put on ice.

    https://www.politico.eu/article/uk-labour-party-admits-its-not-ready-for-government-yet/
    ...Given an election is all-but-certain in 2024, the process might have been anticipated to start soon for Keir Starmer’s Labour Party. The last time Labour came to power, under Tony Blair in 1997, the party began conversations with the civil service 16 months before the election.

    Yet the Times reported Saturday that this time round, access talks are unlikely to start before the new year — a fact confirmed to POLITICO by four senior Labour Party figures, including the one quoted above.

    “There hasn’t been enough time to get everything done yet,” a second of these officials said. They pointed to Starmer — who has to request talks in a letter to the PM — warning that he wants to “bombproof” each of his policies. “We need more time,” they added.

    A third Labour official said: “We won’t rush into access talks because we need them to be more than just surface level. There is a delivery question. We really want to be ready and not caught out.”..


    Sounds as though their priorities won't be fully decided until Jan/Feb next year.

    Still less chaotic than the shoot from the hip Sunak administration. Key policy seems to be currently decided upon immediately after the last negative Daily Mail headline.
  • Options
    TOPPING said:

    No surprise. Of the 20-30% Cons supporters half of them think fuck it let's do this while half realise that every month delayed is a month more in power. I believe Rishi is in the latter half.

    In office, maybe, as Norman Lamont(?) put it.
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,311
    DO NOT WHATEVER YOU DO LET LEON SEE THIS.

    AI Model uses quantum maths to learn like a human
  • Options
    Nigelb said:

    An early election might be a problem for Starmer to hit the ground running.

    UK Labour Party admits it’s not ready for government — yet
    “We’d be fucked if there was an election tomorrow,” party officials say, as talks with civil service put on ice.

    https://www.politico.eu/article/uk-labour-party-admits-its-not-ready-for-government-yet/
    ...Given an election is all-but-certain in 2024, the process might have been anticipated to start soon for Keir Starmer’s Labour Party. The last time Labour came to power, under Tony Blair in 1997, the party began conversations with the civil service 16 months before the election.

    Yet the Times reported Saturday that this time round, access talks are unlikely to start before the new year — a fact confirmed to POLITICO by four senior Labour Party figures, including the one quoted above.

    “There hasn’t been enough time to get everything done yet,” a second of these officials said. They pointed to Starmer — who has to request talks in a letter to the PM — warning that he wants to “bombproof” each of his policies. “We need more time,” they added.

    A third Labour official said: “We won’t rush into access talks because we need them to be more than just surface level. There is a delivery question. We really want to be ready and not caught out.”..


    Sounds as though their priorities won't be fully decided until Jan/Feb next year.

    Sounds as if they’re inviting Sunak to call an early GE!

  • Options
    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,956
    Leon said:

    Is that why we have historically unprecedented levels of immigration?

    We have unprecedented levels because the current Government (sole qualification for membership, support BoZo and Brexit) are spectacularly incompetent.

    Really, really bad at their job.

    Useless.

    Worthless.

    They thank you for your vote...
  • Options
    Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 4,814
    The six months window now includes May. A lot of those polled won't be thinking that deeply, but that should shift the dial a bit, however the government were doing.

    In general the drift towards wishing a general election with time should be a given, in fact, if some people still oppose this next July you'd be entitled to wonder what they actually do want.
  • Options
    StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 14,461
    edited December 2023
    Leon said:

    Cicero said:

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Gotta admire Larry Elliot on the Groaniad

    Telling its readers the UK economy is actually doing OK, Brexit is not a disaster, in some ways the EU is worse off = no way Rejoin will ever be a thing

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/dec/05/brexit-disaster-rejoining-channel-europe-economy

    "Keir Starmer is broadly offering continuity Rishi Sunak."

    But with a large side-order of early disappointment...
    Larry Elliot alway was the Guardian's tame Lexiteer, wasn't he? The EU stops socialism in one country, so it is bad, that sort of thing.

    From his perspective, Starmer and Sunak probably do look indistinguishable.
    No, that’s a gross mischaracterisation

    He believes the EU enforces a neo-liberal orthodoxy and infringes political sovereignty. He also makes the interesting point that Brexit may be the reason the UK is now almost alone, in Europe, in not suffering a hard right swing

    You didn’t bother to read the data in the lead, clearly.
    Quite.

    Braverman et al are regarded as extreme right even by the right in most European Countries.

    The funny thing is that the UK right wingers demand even more extreme policies "otherwise we get Farage". Actually it is probably the Conservatives who "get Farage", if they continue down that rabbit hole, and with a similar number of seats.

    The Far Right may be a chimera when it comes to Farage, but clearly not when we examine the policies of even a so-called "moderate" like Sunak. The Tories ARE the far right.

    Whatever his own instincts may have been, Sunak panders to the far right, as long as they are in his own party, while many Tory members pander to the far right, whether or not they are Conservatives, as we saw with the lionising of Farage at the Tory conference.

    It matters not, the punishment for the Tories at the next election will be brutal, even as it stands, and another six months of Faragist cosplay will raise the coming disaster to an ELE for the Tories.

    We have all had enough...

    "You have sat too long here for any good you have been doing. In the name of God, go!"
    Listen to yourself

    “The Tories ARE the Far Right”. Is that why we have historically unprecedented levels of immigration? Get a grip
    Incompetence, mainly. An inability to get a grip.

    That and an unwillingness to invest so that the only way to keep the wheels turning is to import more working age people.

    An unwillingness shared by the government.
  • Options
    Leon said:

    Cicero said:

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Gotta admire Larry Elliot on the Groaniad

    Telling its readers the UK economy is actually doing OK, Brexit is not a disaster, in some ways the EU is worse off = no way Rejoin will ever be a thing

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/dec/05/brexit-disaster-rejoining-channel-europe-economy

    "Keir Starmer is broadly offering continuity Rishi Sunak."

    But with a large side-order of early disappointment...
    Larry Elliot alway was the Guardian's tame Lexiteer, wasn't he? The EU stops socialism in one country, so it is bad, that sort of thing.

    From his perspective, Starmer and Sunak probably do look indistinguishable.
    No, that’s a gross mischaracterisation

    He believes the EU enforces a neo-liberal orthodoxy and infringes political sovereignty. He also makes the interesting point that Brexit may be the reason the UK is now almost alone, in Europe, in not suffering a hard right swing

    You didn’t bother to read the data in the lead, clearly.
    Quite.

    Braverman et al are regarded as extreme right even by the right in most European Countries.

    The funny thing is that the UK right wingers demand even more extreme policies "otherwise we get Farage". Actually it is probably the Conservatives who "get Farage", if they continue down that rabbit hole, and with a similar number of seats.

    The Far Right may be a chimera when it comes to Farage, but clearly not when we examine the policies of even a so-called "moderate" like Sunak. The Tories ARE the far right.

    Whatever his own instincts may have been, Sunak panders to the far right, as long as they are in his own party, while many Tory members pander to the far right, whether or not they are Conservatives, as we saw with the lionising of Farage at the Tory conference.

    It matters not, the punishment for the Tories at the next election will be brutal, even as it stands, and another six months of Faragist cosplay will raise the coming disaster to an ELE for the Tories.

    We have all had enough...

    "You have sat too long here for any good you have been doing. In the name of God, go!"
    Listen to yourself

    “The Tories ARE the Far Right”. Is that why we have historically unprecedented levels of immigration? Get a grip
    They have that in Italy too. What do you see as the big differences between the Braverman/Rees Mogg Tories and, say, Meloni in Italy or Wilders in the Netherlands?

  • Options
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    Gotta admire Larry Elliot on the Groaniad

    Telling its readers the UK economy is actually doing OK, Brexit is not a disaster, in some ways the EU is worse off = no way Rejoin will ever be a thing

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/dec/05/brexit-disaster-rejoining-channel-europe-economy

    "Keir Starmer is broadly offering continuity Rishi Sunak."

    But with a large side-order of early disappointment...
    Best then to cut out the Starmer fiasco and go straight to newly fun washed Farage as Tory PM.
    Not going to happen. If grinding austerity continues under Starmer, and further deterioration of public services, the desire will not be for the hard right.
    Who then.
    Mostly a voter strike I think. The 2028/9 election will be more like 2001.

    Starmer plays a few moves ahead, so by controlling candidate selections is putting in place a supportive parliament.

    I think opposition on the left will be nearly all outside parliamentary politics. I think the Tories will step further to the right, leaving no real place for a Farage insurgent party.
    But @MarqueeMark has declared the first Starmer term was a disaster. Surely we need a promise everything, deliver nothing populist like Nige, Suella or worse still Jenrick.
    I don't think Starmers first term will be great, but it will disappoint on the left, not the right, so not a situation not conducive to rightwing populism.
    The way I see it, the way I hope it will be, is that Starmer is the one to guide the nation through its first really bad hangover.

    By about 2028, we may be able to have some weak tea and have the curtains open a bit. And if so, the nation will be grateful.
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,679
    Pro_Rata said:

    The six months window now includes May. A lot of those polled won't be thinking that deeply, but that should shift the dial a bit, however the government were doing.

    In general the drift towards wishing a general election with time should be a given, in fact, if some people still oppose this next July you'd be entitled to wonder what they actually do want.

    Dictatorship... or revolution, presumably.
  • Options
    FishingFishing Posts: 4,561
    Nigelb said:

    Korea indirectly supplied more 155-mm shells for Ukraine than all European countries combined: WP
    https://m.koreatimes.co.kr/pages/article.asp?newsIdx=364468

    That will change, though, as EU production is starting to ramp up (and faster than in the U.S.).

    Knowing the EU and its proclivity for grandiose and expensive cockups, production will ramp up at exactly the time the supply of shells becomes irrelevant, either because of a peace deal or because some other weapon becomes more important.
  • Options
    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,956

    The way I see it, the way I hope it will be, is that Starmer is the one to guide the nation through its first really bad hangover.

    By about 2028, we may be able to have some weak tea and have the curtains open a bit. And if so, the nation will be grateful.

    What will provide the necessary emetic?

    We would feel much better if we could purge the toxins from the body politic instead of continuing to absorb them...
  • Options
    CiceroCicero Posts: 2,224
    Leon said:

    Cicero said:

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Gotta admire Larry Elliot on the Groaniad

    Telling its readers the UK economy is actually doing OK, Brexit is not a disaster, in some ways the EU is worse off = no way Rejoin will ever be a thing

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/dec/05/brexit-disaster-rejoining-channel-europe-economy

    "Keir Starmer is broadly offering continuity Rishi Sunak."

    But with a large side-order of early disappointment...
    Larry Elliot alway was the Guardian's tame Lexiteer, wasn't he? The EU stops socialism in one country, so it is bad, that sort of thing.

    From his perspective, Starmer and Sunak probably do look indistinguishable.
    No, that’s a gross mischaracterisation

    He believes the EU enforces a neo-liberal orthodoxy and infringes political sovereignty. He also makes the interesting point that Brexit may be the reason the UK is now almost alone, in Europe, in not suffering a hard right swing

    You didn’t bother to read the data in the lead, clearly.
    Quite.

    Braverman et al are regarded as extreme right even by the right in most European Countries.

    The funny thing is that the UK right wingers demand even more extreme policies "otherwise we get Farage". Actually it is probably the Conservatives who "get Farage", if they continue down that rabbit hole, and with a similar number of seats.

    The Far Right may be a chimera when it comes to Farage, but clearly not when we examine the policies of even a so-called "moderate" like Sunak. The Tories ARE the far right.

    Whatever his own instincts may have been, Sunak panders to the far right, as long as they are in his own party, while many Tory members pander to the far right, whether or not they are Conservatives, as we saw with the lionising of Farage at the Tory conference.

    It matters not, the punishment for the Tories at the next election will be brutal, even as it stands, and another six months of Faragist cosplay will raise the coming disaster to an ELE for the Tories.

    We have all had enough...

    "You have sat too long here for any good you have been doing. In the name of God, go!"
    Listen to yourself

    “The Tories ARE the Far Right”. Is that why we have historically unprecedented levels of immigration? Get a grip
    Keep going... you are headed to meltdown.

    Being an inky scribe is not much of a qualification for office, it turns out. As the political/media complex of the Tory administrations of the past decade can testify.

    You whip up some spurious outrage, offer some hyped gimmickry as policy and watch as it collapses like a wet souffle. The Tory "solutions" are not intended to be serious policy, they are populist garbage from start to finish.

    Your government is industrial scale bullshitters playing a masquerade of politics. It has cost us a fortune and degraded our national self respect and you provide the Greek chorus for this drivel.

    Time you apologised to the whole country I think.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,283
    edited December 2023
    Leon said:

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Gotta admire Larry Elliot on the Groaniad

    Telling its readers the UK economy is actually doing OK, Brexit is not a disaster, in some ways the EU is worse off = no way Rejoin will ever be a thing

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/dec/05/brexit-disaster-rejoining-channel-europe-economy

    "Keir Starmer is broadly offering continuity Rishi Sunak."

    But with a large side-order of early disappointment...
    Larry Elliot alway was the Guardian's tame Lexiteer, wasn't he? The EU stops socialism in one country, so it is bad, that sort of thing.

    From his perspective, Starmer and Sunak probably do look indistinguishable.
    No, that’s a gross mischaracterisation

    He believes the EU enforces a neo-liberal orthodoxy and infringes political sovereignty. He also makes the interesting point that Brexit may be the reason the UK is now almost alone, in Europe, in not suffering a hard right swing

    You didn’t bother to read the data in the lead, clearly.
    Probably because I’m not talking about data? This debate is about Larry Elliot’s Brexit opinions. I’ve been following him for years - as he’s interesting, a lefty Leaver - so I know his position well
    My mistake, I meant the data in the lead for the previous thread. 15% of Tories now saying they will vote to a party to the right of a Tory Party that has already itself swung dramatically to the right (in everything but economics), IS a hard right swing.

  • Options
    StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 7,056

    My God, The Telegraph are reporting the Queen had an affair whilst married to the King and her lover then went on to marry her sister.

    https://tinyurl.com/4yw3dsnj

    Nah, our own Queen's affairs were far, er, racier....
    I think you are muddling her up with Catherine the Great…
  • Options
    mwadamsmwadams Posts: 3,141
    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    Is that why we have historically unprecedented levels of immigration?

    We have unprecedented levels because the current Government (sole qualification for membership, support BoZo and Brexit) are spectacularly incompetent.

    Really, really bad at their job.

    Useless.

    Worthless.

    They thank you for your vote...
    This is what is possibly unique about this government - they are the furthest right we have seen in my lifetime, and yet they are so spectacularly useless they have contrived to produce a situation which wholly fails to satisfy the right wing desires of their supporters. Hence the relative rise of e.g. RefUK.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,125
    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    Is that why we have historically unprecedented levels of immigration?

    We have unprecedented levels because the current Government (sole qualification for membership, support BoZo and Brexit) are spectacularly incompetent.

    Really, really bad at their job.

    Useless.

    Worthless.

    They thank you for your vote...
    I'm really looking forward to the immigration numbers under a Starmer government. If you think THIS lot are really, really bad at their job... At least they aren't riven by a faction wanting to effectively open the borders.
  • Options

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    Is that why we have historically unprecedented levels of immigration?

    We have unprecedented levels because the current Government (sole qualification for membership, support BoZo and Brexit) are spectacularly incompetent.

    Really, really bad at their job.

    Useless.

    Worthless.

    They thank you for your vote...
    I'm really looking forward to the immigration numbers under a Starmer government. If you think THIS lot are really, really bad at their job... At least they aren't riven by a faction wanting to effectively open the borders.
    Our borders are open now. How would we tell the difference between now and this dystopian nightmare you predict?
  • Options
    StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 7,056

    Another ludicrous piece of manoeuvring yesterday by Sunak. The Blood Poisoning amendment - why would you oppose that?

    No wonder most remaining Tory voters want an early election. Even they can see the party is poison.

    There is an argument from principle: you should wait for the final report before implementing the recommendations

    Of course it’s almost certain he will recommend this but you don’t want to set a precedent
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,311

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    Is that why we have historically unprecedented levels of immigration?

    We have unprecedented levels because the current Government (sole qualification for membership, support BoZo and Brexit) are spectacularly incompetent.

    Really, really bad at their job.

    Useless.

    Worthless.

    They thank you for your vote...
    I'm really looking forward to the immigration numbers under a Starmer government. If you think THIS lot are really, really bad at their job... At least they aren't riven by a faction wanting to effectively open the borders.
    When we had more or less open borders (ie when we were in the EU) immigration was a third the level it is now.
  • Options

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    Is that why we have historically unprecedented levels of immigration?

    We have unprecedented levels because the current Government (sole qualification for membership, support BoZo and Brexit) are spectacularly incompetent.

    Really, really bad at their job.

    Useless.

    Worthless.

    They thank you for your vote...
    I'm really looking forward to the immigration numbers under a Starmer government. If you think THIS lot are really, really bad at their job... At least they aren't riven by a faction wanting to effectively open the borders.
    That's going to be the test.

    Is it more useful to make a lot of noise about wanting to tackle issue X but he too incompetent to make it work, or want to do less but actually achieve that?
  • Options
    Count me as one of the 1 in ten. I support fixed term parliaments.
  • Options
    RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    Leon said:

    Gotta admire Larry Elliot on the Groaniad

    Telling its readers the UK economy is actually doing OK, Brexit is not a disaster, in some ways the EU is worse off = no way Rejoin will ever be a thing

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/dec/05/brexit-disaster-rejoining-channel-europe-economy

    Nothing new. Larry Elliott has always been a Leaver.

    Even Guardian journalists don't always get it right.
  • Options
    StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 7,056

    Leon said:

    Cicero said:

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Gotta admire Larry Elliot on the Groaniad

    Telling its readers the UK economy is actually doing OK, Brexit is not a disaster, in some ways the EU is worse off = no way Rejoin will ever be a thing

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/dec/05/brexit-disaster-rejoining-channel-europe-economy

    "Keir Starmer is broadly offering continuity Rishi Sunak."

    But with a large side-order of early disappointment...
    Larry Elliot alway was the Guardian's tame Lexiteer, wasn't he? The EU stops socialism in one country, so it is bad, that sort of thing.

    From his perspective, Starmer and Sunak probably do look indistinguishable.
    No, that’s a gross mischaracterisation

    He believes the EU enforces a neo-liberal orthodoxy and infringes political sovereignty. He also makes the interesting point that Brexit may be the reason the UK is now almost alone, in Europe, in not suffering a hard right swing

    You didn’t bother to read the data in the lead, clearly.
    Quite.

    Braverman et al are regarded as extreme right even by the right in most European Countries.

    The funny thing is that the UK right wingers demand even more extreme policies "otherwise we get Farage". Actually it is probably the Conservatives who "get Farage", if they continue down that rabbit hole, and with a similar number of seats.

    The Far Right may be a chimera when it comes to Farage, but clearly not when we examine the policies of even a so-called "moderate" like Sunak. The Tories ARE the far right.

    Whatever his own instincts may have been, Sunak panders to the far right, as long as they are in his own party, while many Tory members pander to the far right, whether or not they are Conservatives, as we saw with the lionising of Farage at the Tory conference.

    It matters not, the punishment for the Tories at the next election will be brutal, even as it stands, and another six months of Faragist cosplay will raise the coming disaster to an ELE for the Tories.

    We have all had enough...

    "You have sat too long here for any good you have been doing. In the name of God, go!"
    Listen to yourself

    “The Tories ARE the Far Right”. Is that why we have historically unprecedented levels of immigration? Get a grip
    They have that in Italy too. What do you see as the big differences between the Braverman/Rees Mogg Tories and, say, Meloni in Italy or Wilders in the Netherlands?

    They are not in office?
  • Options
    TOPPING said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    Is that why we have historically unprecedented levels of immigration?

    We have unprecedented levels because the current Government (sole qualification for membership, support BoZo and Brexit) are spectacularly incompetent.

    Really, really bad at their job.

    Useless.

    Worthless.

    They thank you for your vote...
    I'm really looking forward to the immigration numbers under a Starmer government. If you think THIS lot are really, really bad at their job... At least they aren't riven by a faction wanting to effectively open the borders.
    When we had more or less open borders (ie when we were in the EU) immigration was a third the level it is now.
    This is the reality. So many millions voted to Take Back Control of the border so that they saw less foreigners. Don't tell me I am wrong on their motivations, go back to 2016 and look at what they said.

    So we have left the EU, ended the right to live and work, and yet there are way more people now than there were then. Yes the Tories are incompetent, but there is a reality that few want to face up to:

    We have too many economically inactive people unable to fill the jobs that we need doing. I am not blaming the inactive - many can't take the work on offer because of lack of childcare / transport / wrong part of the country etc etc etc. So we need migrants. We did before, we do now, we will in the future.

    Or, we take an axe to things we need. Lets have a heavily downsized NHS because we don't want foreigners but we won't pay to train our own people. Lets have elderly care based in the family home rather than a care home which we can't find staff for. Lets have less hotels and coffee shops and food production and all the other things that rely on foreign labour.

    A grown up conversation to hold reality up to the people whose natural parochial bigotry has been gaslit to terrifying levels for the benefit of right wing politicians. You can have what you want. Are you willing to pay the price for getting it?
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,629
    Fishing said:

    Nigelb said:

    Korea indirectly supplied more 155-mm shells for Ukraine than all European countries combined: WP
    https://m.koreatimes.co.kr/pages/article.asp?newsIdx=364468

    That will change, though, as EU production is starting to ramp up (and faster than in the U.S.).

    Knowing the EU and its proclivity for grandiose and expensive cockups, production will ramp up at exactly the time the supply of shells becomes irrelevant, either because of a peace deal or because some other weapon becomes more important.
    They are already manufacturing at twice the rate of the US - and there are a very large number of 155mm howitzers out there. Poland just confirmed an order for several hundred new models from Korea.

    So in this particular case, what you know is wrong.
  • Options
    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,794

    My God, The Telegraph are reporting the Queen had an affair whilst married to the King and her lover then went on to marry her sister.

    https://tinyurl.com/4yw3dsnj

    I hate you and all your works :wink:
  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,197
    edited December 2023

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    Is that why we have historically unprecedented levels of immigration?

    We have unprecedented levels because the current Government (sole qualification for membership, support BoZo and Brexit) are spectacularly incompetent.

    Really, really bad at their job.

    Useless.

    Worthless.

    They thank you for your vote...
    I'm really looking forward to the immigration numbers under a Starmer government. If you think THIS lot are really, really bad at their job... At least they aren't riven by a faction wanting to effectively open the borders.
    Our borders are open now. How would we tell the difference between now and this dystopian nightmare you predict?
    Out of control immigration is a false narrative. The remedy to this confected scandal, will after yesterday be even bigger hospital crises and care homes closing like fury. Arses and elbows don't even come into it.
  • Options
    StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 7,056

    TOPPING said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    Is that why we have historically unprecedented levels of immigration?

    We have unprecedented levels because the current Government (sole qualification for membership, support BoZo and Brexit) are spectacularly incompetent.

    Really, really bad at their job.

    Useless.

    Worthless.

    They thank you for your vote...
    I'm really looking forward to the immigration numbers under a Starmer government. If you think THIS lot are really, really bad at their job... At least they aren't riven by a faction wanting to effectively open the borders.
    When we had more or less open borders (ie when we were in the EU) immigration was a third the level it is now.
    This is the reality. So many millions voted to Take Back Control of the border so that they saw less foreigners. Don't tell me I am wrong on their motivations, go back to 2016 and look at what they said.

    So we have left the EU, ended the right to live and work, and yet there are way more people now than there were then. Yes the Tories are incompetent, but there is a reality that few want to face up to:

    We have too many economically inactive people unable to fill the jobs that we need doing. I am not blaming the inactive - many can't take the work on offer because of lack of childcare / transport / wrong part of the country etc etc etc. So we need migrants. We did before, we do now, we will in the future.

    Or, we take an axe to things we need. Lets have a heavily downsized NHS because we don't want foreigners but we won't pay to train our own people. Lets have elderly care based in the family home rather than a care home which we can't find staff for. Lets have less hotels and coffee shops and food production and all the other things that rely on foreign labour.

    A grown up conversation to hold reality up to the people whose natural parochial bigotry has been gaslit to terrifying levels for the benefit of right wing politicians. You can have what you want. Are you willing to pay the price for getting it?
    So let’s discuss the NHS

    Since 2009 the number of FTEs has increased by 25% to more than 1.4 million

    What additional services are being delivered by those additional 300,000 employees?

    The root problem we have is horrifically poor productivity. If we could redeploy even a small percentage of that staff for other roles, for example, then hiring pressures would be massively reduced in other sectors. Alternatively we might choose to significant enhance delivery of health outcomes using the additional resources

    https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/projects/nhs-in-a-nutshell/nhs-workforce
  • Options
    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,956
    @philipjcowley

    Every PM since 1970 has been defeated at least once in the Commons.

    Except for Liz Truss.
  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,197
    TOPPING said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    Is that why we have historically unprecedented levels of immigration?

    We have unprecedented levels because the current Government (sole qualification for membership, support BoZo and Brexit) are spectacularly incompetent.

    Really, really bad at their job.

    Useless.

    Worthless.

    They thank you for your vote...
    I'm really looking forward to the immigration numbers under a Starmer government. If you think THIS lot are really, really bad at their job... At least they aren't riven by a faction wanting to effectively open the borders.
    When we had more or less open borders (ie when we were in the EU) immigration was a third the level it is now.
    These are net figures. The other side of the coin of course is whilst in the EU, old bastards like me could retire to the sun and be a burden on the Mediterranean health service. After Hotel California Brexit we can check out any time we like (having to return after 90 days) but we can never leave.
  • Options

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    Is that why we have historically unprecedented levels of immigration?

    We have unprecedented levels because the current Government (sole qualification for membership, support BoZo and Brexit) are spectacularly incompetent.

    Really, really bad at their job.

    Useless.

    Worthless.

    They thank you for your vote...
    I'm really looking forward to the immigration numbers under a Starmer government. If you think THIS lot are really, really bad at their job... At least they aren't riven by a faction wanting to effectively open the borders.
    Our borders are open now. How would we tell the difference between now and this dystopian nightmare you predict?
    Out of control immigration is a false narrative. The remedy to this confected scandal, will after yesterday be even bigger hospital crises and care homes closing like fury. Arses and elbows don't even come into it.
    There is a significant proportion of the population who don't understand why we didn't send all these foreign workers home after Brexit so that all the jobs would rightly go to Brits. That this isn't possible is beyond their understanding. Hence the increasing wailing and gnashing about migration which is now at CRISIS ARGGHHHH levels in the Tory party.

    Last week's revelations about cheaper wage hurdles for migrant workers just revealed how disingenuous the government are. They are happy to gaslight the "foreigners go home" contingent of their vote. Whilst understanding the economic need for foreign labour.

    What I hope from Starmer is that we can have an honest conversation. The crank right will foam on about unchecked migration, but *they* have already given us that. We can have controlled migration or uncontrolled. Currently it is the latter. The former would be to everyone's benefit.
  • Options

    TOPPING said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    Is that why we have historically unprecedented levels of immigration?

    We have unprecedented levels because the current Government (sole qualification for membership, support BoZo and Brexit) are spectacularly incompetent.

    Really, really bad at their job.

    Useless.

    Worthless.

    They thank you for your vote...
    I'm really looking forward to the immigration numbers under a Starmer government. If you think THIS lot are really, really bad at their job... At least they aren't riven by a faction wanting to effectively open the borders.
    When we had more or less open borders (ie when we were in the EU) immigration was a third the level it is now.
    This is the reality. So many millions voted to Take Back Control of the border so that they saw less foreigners. Don't tell me I am wrong on their motivations, go back to 2016 and look at what they said.

    So we have left the EU, ended the right to live and work, and yet there are way more people now than there were then. Yes the Tories are incompetent, but there is a reality that few want to face up to:

    We have too many economically inactive people unable to fill the jobs that we need doing. I am not blaming the inactive - many can't take the work on offer because of lack of childcare / transport / wrong part of the country etc etc etc. So we need migrants. We did before, we do now, we will in the future.

    Or, we take an axe to things we need. Lets have a heavily downsized NHS because we don't want foreigners but we won't pay to train our own people. Lets have elderly care based in the family home rather than a care home which we can't find staff for. Lets have less hotels and coffee shops and food production and all the other things that rely on foreign labour.

    A grown up conversation to hold reality up to the people whose natural parochial bigotry has been gaslit to terrifying levels for the benefit of right wing politicians. You can have what you want. Are you willing to pay the price for getting it?
    So let’s discuss the NHS

    Since 2009 the number of FTEs has increased by 25% to more than 1.4 million

    What additional services are being delivered by those additional 300,000 employees?

    The root problem we have is horrifically poor productivity. If we could redeploy even a small percentage of that staff for other roles, for example, then hiring pressures would be massively reduced in other sectors. Alternatively we might choose to significant enhance delivery of health outcomes using the additional resources

    https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/projects/nhs-in-a-nutshell/nhs-workforce
    @Foxy is the expert on the mechanics inside the NHS. Have the government not scrapped the funding for a whole load of preventative healthcare? So instead of spending £1 preventing someone getting ill we now need to spend £10 on treating the inevitable result. We're pouring record amounts into the NHS and simultaneously starving front line healthcare. So what are we spending the money on?
  • Options
    StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 7,056

    TOPPING said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    Is that why we have historically unprecedented levels of immigration?

    We have unprecedented levels because the current Government (sole qualification for membership, support BoZo and Brexit) are spectacularly incompetent.

    Really, really bad at their job.

    Useless.

    Worthless.

    They thank you for your vote...
    I'm really looking forward to the immigration numbers under a Starmer government. If you think THIS lot are really, really bad at their job... At least they aren't riven by a faction wanting to effectively open the borders.
    When we had more or less open borders (ie when we were in the EU) immigration was a third the level it is now.
    This is the reality. So many millions voted to Take Back Control of the border so that they saw less foreigners. Don't tell me I am wrong on their motivations, go back to 2016 and look at what they said.

    So we have left the EU, ended the right to live and work, and yet there are way more people now than there were then. Yes the Tories are incompetent, but there is a reality that few want to face up to:

    We have too many economically inactive people unable to fill the jobs that we need doing. I am not blaming the inactive - many can't take the work on offer because of lack of childcare / transport / wrong part of the country etc etc etc. So we need migrants. We did before, we do now, we will in the future.

    Or, we take an axe to things we need. Lets have a heavily downsized NHS because we don't want foreigners but we won't pay to train our own people. Lets have elderly care based in the family home rather than a care home which we can't find staff for. Lets have less hotels and coffee shops and food production and all the other things that rely on foreign labour.

    A grown up conversation to hold reality up to the people whose natural parochial bigotry has been gaslit to terrifying levels for the benefit of right wing politicians. You can have what you want. Are you willing to pay the price for getting it?
    So let’s discuss the NHS

    Since 2009 the number of FTEs has increased by 25% to more than 1.4 million

    What additional services are being delivered by those additional 300,000 employees?

    The root problem we have is horrifically poor productivity. If we could redeploy even a small percentage of that staff for other roles, for example, then hiring pressures would be massively reduced in other sectors. Alternatively we might choose to significant enhance delivery of health outcomes using the additional resources

    https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/projects/nhs-in-a-nutshell/nhs-workforce
    @Foxy is the expert on the mechanics inside the NHS. Have the government not scrapped the funding for a whole load of preventative healthcare? So instead of spending £1 preventing someone getting ill we now need to spend £10 on treating the inevitable result. We're pouring record amounts into the NHS and simultaneously starving front line healthcare. So what are we spending the money on?
    That’s always been my question. And no one has had a good answer - it usually gets responses of “well don’t you want cancer patients to live!” Or “evil drug companies!”

    Neither of which are true or helpful remarks
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,427

    TOPPING said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    Is that why we have historically unprecedented levels of immigration?

    We have unprecedented levels because the current Government (sole qualification for membership, support BoZo and Brexit) are spectacularly incompetent.

    Really, really bad at their job.

    Useless.

    Worthless.

    They thank you for your vote...
    I'm really looking forward to the immigration numbers under a Starmer government. If you think THIS lot are really, really bad at their job... At least they aren't riven by a faction wanting to effectively open the borders.
    When we had more or less open borders (ie when we were in the EU) immigration was a third the level it is now.
    This is the reality. So many millions voted to Take Back Control of the border so that they saw less foreigners. Don't tell me I am wrong on their motivations, go back to 2016 and look at what they said.

    So we have left the EU, ended the right to live and work, and yet there are way more people now than there were then. Yes the Tories are incompetent, but there is a reality that few want to face up to:

    We have too many economically inactive people unable to fill the jobs that we need doing. I am not blaming the inactive - many can't take the work on offer because of lack of childcare / transport / wrong part of the country etc etc etc. So we need migrants. We did before, we do now, we will in the future.

    Or, we take an axe to things we need. Lets have a heavily downsized NHS because we don't want foreigners but we won't pay to train our own people. Lets have elderly care based in the family home rather than a care home which we can't find staff for. Lets have less hotels and coffee shops and food production and all the other things that rely on foreign labour.

    A grown up conversation to hold reality up to the people whose natural parochial bigotry has been gaslit to terrifying levels for the benefit of right wing politicians. You can have what you want. Are you willing to pay the price for getting it?
    So let’s discuss the NHS

    Since 2009 the number of FTEs has increased by 25% to more than 1.4 million

    What additional services are being delivered by those additional 300,000 employees?

    The root problem we have is horrifically poor productivity. If we could redeploy even a small percentage of that staff for other roles, for example, then hiring pressures would be massively reduced in other sectors. Alternatively we might choose to significant enhance delivery of health outcomes using the additional resources

    https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/projects/nhs-in-a-nutshell/nhs-workforce
    @Foxy is the expert on the mechanics inside the NHS. Have the government not scrapped the funding for a whole load of preventative healthcare? So instead of spending £1 preventing someone getting ill we now need to spend £10 on treating the inevitable result. We're pouring record amounts into the NHS and simultaneously starving front line healthcare. So what are we spending the money on?
    That’s always been my question. And no one has had a good answer - it usually gets responses of “well don’t you want cancer patients to live!” Or “evil drug companies!”

    Neither of which are true or helpful remarks
    You are forgetting "Sack All The Managers And Admin Staff!". Because the laundry just does itself, and paperclips buy themselves.
  • Options
    NerysHughesNerysHughes Posts: 3,347

    TOPPING said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    Is that why we have historically unprecedented levels of immigration?

    We have unprecedented levels because the current Government (sole qualification for membership, support BoZo and Brexit) are spectacularly incompetent.

    Really, really bad at their job.

    Useless.

    Worthless.

    They thank you for your vote...
    I'm really looking forward to the immigration numbers under a Starmer government. If you think THIS lot are really, really bad at their job... At least they aren't riven by a faction wanting to effectively open the borders.
    When we had more or less open borders (ie when we were in the EU) immigration was a third the level it is now.
    This is the reality. So many millions voted to Take Back Control of the border so that they saw less foreigners. Don't tell me I am wrong on their motivations, go back to 2016 and look at what they said.

    So we have left the EU, ended the right to live and work, and yet there are way more people now than there were then. Yes the Tories are incompetent, but there is a reality that few want to face up to:

    We have too many economically inactive people unable to fill the jobs that we need doing. I am not blaming the inactive - many can't take the work on offer because of lack of childcare / transport / wrong part of the country etc etc etc. So we need migrants. We did before, we do now, we will in the future.

    Or, we take an axe to things we need. Lets have a heavily downsized NHS because we don't want foreigners but we won't pay to train our own people. Lets have elderly care based in the family home rather than a care home which we can't find staff for. Lets have less hotels and coffee shops and food production and all the other things that rely on foreign labour.

    A grown up conversation to hold reality up to the people whose natural parochial bigotry has been gaslit to terrifying levels for the benefit of right wing politicians. You can have what you want. Are you willing to pay the price for getting it?
    So let’s discuss the NHS

    Since 2009 the number of FTEs has increased by 25% to more than 1.4 million

    What additional services are being delivered by those additional 300,000 employees?

    The root problem we have is horrifically poor productivity. If we could redeploy even a small percentage of that staff for other roles, for example, then hiring pressures would be massively reduced in other sectors. Alternatively we might choose to significant enhance delivery of health outcomes using the additional resources

    https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/projects/nhs-in-a-nutshell/nhs-workforce
    @Foxy is the expert on the mechanics inside the NHS. Have the government not scrapped the funding for a whole load of preventative healthcare? So instead of spending £1 preventing someone getting ill we now need to spend £10 on treating the inevitable result. We're pouring record amounts into the NHS and simultaneously starving front line healthcare. So what are we spending the money on?
    The money goes on Consultants' salaries
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,011
    Well tough, Tory supporters had to wait a full 5 years after the 2005 general election to get rid of the Brown Labour government. Labour supporters will in turn have to wait a full 5 years after the 2019 general election to have a chance to get rid of Sunak's Conservative government
  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,197
    ...

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    Is that why we have historically unprecedented levels of immigration?

    We have unprecedented levels because the current Government (sole qualification for membership, support BoZo and Brexit) are spectacularly incompetent.

    Really, really bad at their job.

    Useless.

    Worthless.

    They thank you for your vote...
    I'm really looking forward to the immigration numbers under a Starmer government. If you think THIS lot are really, really bad at their job... At least they aren't riven by a faction wanting to effectively open the borders.
    Our borders are open now. How would we tell the difference between now and this dystopian nightmare you predict?
    Out of control immigration is a false narrative. The remedy to this confected scandal, will after yesterday be even bigger hospital crises and care homes closing like fury. Arses and elbows don't even come into it.
    There is a significant proportion of the population who don't understand why we didn't send all these foreign workers home after Brexit so that all the jobs would rightly go to Brits. That this isn't possible is beyond their understanding. Hence the increasing wailing and gnashing about migration which is now at CRISIS ARGGHHHH levels in the Tory party.

    Last week's revelations about cheaper wage hurdles for migrant workers just revealed how disingenuous the government are. They are happy to gaslight the "foreigners go home" contingent of their vote. Whilst understanding the economic need for foreign labour.

    What I hope from Starmer is that we can have an honest conversation. The crank right will foam on about unchecked migration, but *they* have already given us that. We can have controlled migration or uncontrolled. Currently it is the latter. The former would be to everyone's benefit.
    Johnson understood that we would need overseas Labour when all the Poles went home after Brexit. He stated that the UK could cover any shortfall by inviting over "our friends from the Indian subcontinent". I am not sure that was the Brexit bought by fans of Mark Francois and Peter Bone.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,011

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    Is that why we have historically unprecedented levels of immigration?

    We have unprecedented levels because the current Government (sole qualification for membership, support BoZo and Brexit) are spectacularly incompetent.

    Really, really bad at their job.

    Useless.

    Worthless.

    They thank you for your vote...
    I'm really looking forward to the immigration numbers under a Starmer government. If you think THIS lot are really, really bad at their job... At least they aren't riven by a faction wanting to effectively open the borders.
    Our borders are open now. How would we tell the difference between now and this dystopian nightmare you predict?
    Out of control immigration is a false narrative. The remedy to this confected scandal, will after yesterday be even bigger hospital crises and care homes closing like fury. Arses and elbows don't even come into it.
    There is a significant proportion of the population who don't understand why we didn't send all these foreign workers home after Brexit so that all the jobs would rightly go to Brits. That this isn't possible is beyond their understanding. Hence the increasing wailing and gnashing about migration which is now at CRISIS ARGGHHHH levels in the Tory party.

    Last week's revelations about cheaper wage hurdles for migrant workers just revealed how disingenuous the government are. They are happy to gaslight the "foreigners go home" contingent of their vote. Whilst understanding the economic need for foreign labour.

    What I hope from Starmer is that we can have an honest conversation. The crank right will foam on about unchecked migration, but *they* have already given us that. We can have controlled migration or uncontrolled. Currently it is the latter. The former would be to everyone's benefit.
    The rise of the salary threshold for migrants to £38k and the ban on their bringing in departments Cleverly has announced is precisely to bring migration under greater control
  • Options
    RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    edited December 2023
    I can see that the voters want to be rid of the Tories but I can't see them being happy drifting in in Sunak's slipstream indefinitely. It can only be a matter of time till the first 48 sheet with Starmer dressed as Maggie arrives........
  • Options
    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,956
    HYUFD said:

    Labour supporters will in turn have to wait a full 5 years after the 2019 general election to have a chance to get rid of Sunak's Conservative government

    If Sunak's government were Conservative instead of Blukip we might be less anxious to get rid them

    They might also be less shit
  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,197
    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    Is that why we have historically unprecedented levels of immigration?

    We have unprecedented levels because the current Government (sole qualification for membership, support BoZo and Brexit) are spectacularly incompetent.

    Really, really bad at their job.

    Useless.

    Worthless.

    They thank you for your vote...
    I'm really looking forward to the immigration numbers under a Starmer government. If you think THIS lot are really, really bad at their job... At least they aren't riven by a faction wanting to effectively open the borders.
    Our borders are open now. How would we tell the difference between now and this dystopian nightmare you predict?
    Out of control immigration is a false narrative. The remedy to this confected scandal, will after yesterday be even bigger hospital crises and care homes closing like fury. Arses and elbows don't even come into it.
    There is a significant proportion of the population who don't understand why we didn't send all these foreign workers home after Brexit so that all the jobs would rightly go to Brits. That this isn't possible is beyond their understanding. Hence the increasing wailing and gnashing about migration which is now at CRISIS ARGGHHHH levels in the Tory party.

    Last week's revelations about cheaper wage hurdles for migrant workers just revealed how disingenuous the government are. They are happy to gaslight the "foreigners go home" contingent of their vote. Whilst understanding the economic need for foreign labour.

    What I hope from Starmer is that we can have an honest conversation. The crank right will foam on about unchecked migration, but *they* have already given us that. We can have controlled migration or uncontrolled. Currently it is the latter. The former would be to everyone's benefit.
    The rise of the salary threshold for migrants to £38k and the ban on their bringing in departments Cleverly has announced is precisely to bring migration under greater control
    Fantastic! But who wipes your grannie's a*** now?
  • Options
    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,956
    Roger said:

    I can see that the voters want to be rid of the Tories but I can't see them being happy drifting in in Sunak's slipstream indefinitely. It can only be a matter of time to the first 48 sheet with Starmer dressed as Maggie........

    ...
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,011

    Leon said:

    Cicero said:

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Gotta admire Larry Elliot on the Groaniad

    Telling its readers the UK economy is actually doing OK, Brexit is not a disaster, in some ways the EU is worse off = no way Rejoin will ever be a thing

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/dec/05/brexit-disaster-rejoining-channel-europe-economy

    "Keir Starmer is broadly offering continuity Rishi Sunak."

    But with a large side-order of early disappointment...
    Larry Elliot alway was the Guardian's tame Lexiteer, wasn't he? The EU stops socialism in one country, so it is bad, that sort of thing.

    From his perspective, Starmer and Sunak probably do look indistinguishable.
    No, that’s a gross mischaracterisation

    He believes the EU enforces a neo-liberal orthodoxy and infringes political sovereignty. He also makes the interesting point that Brexit may be the reason the UK is now almost alone, in Europe, in not suffering a hard right swing

    You didn’t bother to read the data in the lead, clearly.
    Quite.

    Braverman et al are regarded as extreme right even by the right in most European Countries.

    The funny thing is that the UK right wingers demand even more extreme policies "otherwise we get Farage". Actually it is probably the Conservatives who "get Farage", if they continue down that rabbit hole, and with a similar number of seats.

    The Far Right may be a chimera when it comes to Farage, but clearly not when we examine the policies of even a so-called "moderate" like Sunak. The Tories ARE the far right.

    Whatever his own instincts may have been, Sunak panders to the far right, as long as they are in his own party, while many Tory members pander to the far right, whether or not they are Conservatives, as we saw with the lionising of Farage at the Tory conference.

    It matters not, the punishment for the Tories at the next election will be brutal, even as it stands, and another six months of Faragist cosplay will raise the coming disaster to an ELE for the Tories.

    We have all had enough...

    "You have sat too long here for any good you have been doing. In the name of God, go!"
    Listen to yourself

    “The Tories ARE the Far Right”. Is that why we have historically unprecedented levels of immigration? Get a grip
    They have that in Italy too. What do you see as the big differences between the Braverman/Rees Mogg Tories and, say, Meloni in Italy or Wilders in the Netherlands?

    They haven't yet proposed banning same sex couples from having children by surrogate like Meloni or to ban Muslim headscarfs and close Mosques like Wilders
  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,197
    Roger said:

    I can see that the voters want to be rid of the Tories but I can't see them being happy drifting in in Sunak's slipstream indefinitely. It can only be a matter of time till the first 48 sheet with Starmer dressed as Maggie arrives........

    Hello BJO, is that you?

    You are forgetting that in order to elicit change elections have to be won first.
  • Options
    StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 7,056

    TOPPING said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    Is that why we have historically unprecedented levels of immigration?

    We have unprecedented levels because the current Government (sole qualification for membership, support BoZo and Brexit) are spectacularly incompetent.

    Really, really bad at their job.

    Useless.

    Worthless.

    They thank you for your vote...
    I'm really looking forward to the immigration numbers under a Starmer government. If you think THIS lot are really, really bad at their job... At least they aren't riven by a faction wanting to effectively open the borders.
    When we had more or less open borders (ie when we were in the EU) immigration was a third the level it is now.
    This is the reality. So many millions voted to Take Back Control of the border so that they saw less foreigners. Don't tell me I am wrong on their motivations, go back to 2016 and look at what they said.

    So we have left the EU, ended the right to live and work, and yet there are way more people now than there were then. Yes the Tories are incompetent, but there is a reality that few want to face up to:

    We have too many economically inactive people unable to fill the jobs that we need doing. I am not blaming the inactive - many can't take the work on offer because of lack of childcare / transport / wrong part of the country etc etc etc. So we need migrants. We did before, we do now, we will in the future.

    Or, we take an axe to things we need. Lets have a heavily downsized NHS because we don't want foreigners but we won't pay to train our own people. Lets have elderly care based in the family home rather than a care home which we can't find staff for. Lets have less hotels and coffee shops and food production and all the other things that rely on foreign labour.

    A grown up conversation to hold reality up to the people whose natural parochial bigotry has been gaslit to terrifying levels for the benefit of right wing politicians. You can have what you want. Are you willing to pay the price for getting it?
    So let’s discuss the NHS

    Since 2009 the number of FTEs has increased by 25% to more than 1.4 million

    What additional services are being delivered by those additional 300,000 employees?

    The root problem we have is horrifically poor productivity. If we could redeploy even a small percentage of that staff for other roles, for example, then hiring pressures would be massively reduced in other sectors. Alternatively we might choose to significant enhance delivery of health outcomes using the additional resources

    https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/projects/nhs-in-a-nutshell/nhs-workforce
    @Foxy is the expert on the mechanics inside the NHS. Have the government not scrapped the funding for a whole load of preventative healthcare? So instead of spending £1 preventing someone getting ill we now need to spend £10 on treating the inevitable result. We're pouring record amounts into the NHS and simultaneously starving front line healthcare. So what are we spending the money on?
    Some thoughts (don’t have the time to look for the data at the moment)

    - hours per head may have gone done. This may be a good thing if people were overworked before. Alternatively it could be a management choice re: sustainability
    - Feminisation of the workforce (especially GPs) adds complexity but my numbers were FTE
    - Population growth and aging demographics will likely require additional staff as there is limited operating leverage in an organisation with high contact rates like healthcare

    But there is also stuff that perhaps could be done better. In the King’s Fund report I linked earlier, for example:

    - NHS Infrastructure Support employees fell 20% from 2009 - 2013. From 2013 to 2022 they have grown to 15% above 2009 so close to 50% between 2013 and 2022 (ie
    +35/80).
    - I don’t have absolute numbers to hand so may be we are not talking about a lot of people. And I don’t know what is captured by that job description (it sounds like IT rather than physical maintenance). But that’s a big rate of change
    - That said, doctors, scientific and technical staff and support for clinical staff have all grown very substantially as well
  • Options
    StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 7,056

    TOPPING said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    Is that why we have historically unprecedented levels of immigration?

    We have unprecedented levels because the current Government (sole qualification for membership, support BoZo and Brexit) are spectacularly incompetent.

    Really, really bad at their job.

    Useless.

    Worthless.

    They thank you for your vote...
    I'm really looking forward to the immigration numbers under a Starmer government. If you think THIS lot are really, really bad at their job... At least they aren't riven by a faction wanting to effectively open the borders.
    When we had more or less open borders (ie when we were in the EU) immigration was a third the level it is now.
    This is the reality. So many millions voted to Take Back Control of the border so that they saw less foreigners. Don't tell me I am wrong on their motivations, go back to 2016 and look at what they said.

    So we have left the EU, ended the right to live and work, and yet there are way more people now than there were then. Yes the Tories are incompetent, but there is a reality that few want to face up to:

    We have too many economically inactive people unable to fill the jobs that we need doing. I am not blaming the inactive - many can't take the work on offer because of lack of childcare / transport / wrong part of the country etc etc etc. So we need migrants. We did before, we do now, we will in the future.

    Or, we take an axe to things we need. Lets have a heavily downsized NHS because we don't want foreigners but we won't pay to train our own people. Lets have elderly care based in the family home rather than a care home which we can't find staff for. Lets have less hotels and coffee shops and food production and all the other things that rely on foreign labour.

    A grown up conversation to hold reality up to the people whose natural parochial bigotry has been gaslit to terrifying levels for the benefit of right wing politicians. You can have what you want. Are you willing to pay the price for getting it?
    So let’s discuss the NHS

    Since 2009 the number of FTEs has increased by 25% to more than 1.4 million

    What additional services are being delivered by those additional 300,000 employees?

    The root problem we have is horrifically poor productivity. If we could redeploy even a small percentage of that staff for other roles, for example, then hiring pressures would be massively reduced in other sectors. Alternatively we might choose to significant enhance delivery of health outcomes using the additional resources

    https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/projects/nhs-in-a-nutshell/nhs-workforce
    @Foxy is the expert on the mechanics inside the NHS. Have the government not scrapped the funding for a whole load of preventative healthcare? So instead of spending £1 preventing someone getting ill we now need to spend £10 on treating the inevitable result. We're pouring record amounts into the NHS and simultaneously starving front line healthcare. So what are we spending the money on?
    That’s always been my question. And no one has had a good answer - it usually gets responses of “well don’t you want cancer patients to live!” Or “evil drug companies!”

    Neither of which are true or helpful remarks
    You are forgetting "Sack All The Managers And Admin Staff!". Because the laundry just does itself, and paperclips buy themselves.
    Laundry should be outsourced and paper clips should be centrally procured on a website rather than having a local procurement function
  • Options
    CookieCookie Posts: 11,449

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    Is that why we have historically unprecedented levels of immigration?

    We have unprecedented levels because the current Government (sole qualification for membership, support BoZo and Brexit) are spectacularly incompetent.

    Really, really bad at their job.

    Useless.

    Worthless.

    They thank you for your vote...
    I'm really looking forward to the immigration numbers under a Starmer government. If you think THIS lot are really, really bad at their job... At least they aren't riven by a faction wanting to effectively open the borders.
    Our borders are open now. How would we tell the difference between now and this dystopian nightmare you predict?
    Out of control immigration is a false narrative. The remedy to this confected scandal, will after yesterday be even bigger hospital crises and care homes closing like fury. Arses and elbows don't even come into it.
    There is a significant proportion of the population who don't understand why we didn't send all these foreign workers home after Brexit so that all the jobs would rightly go to Brits. That this isn't possible is beyond their understanding. Hence the increasing wailing and gnashing about migration which is now at CRISIS ARGGHHHH levels in the Tory party.

    Last week's revelations about cheaper wage hurdles for migrant workers just revealed how disingenuous the government are. They are happy to gaslight the "foreigners go home" contingent of their vote. Whilst understanding the economic need for foreign labour.

    What I hope from Starmer is that we can have an honest conversation. The crank right will foam on about unchecked migration, but *they* have already given us that. We can have controlled migration or uncontrolled. Currently it is the latter. The former would be to everyone's benefit.
    The rise of the salary threshold for migrants to £38k and the ban on their bringing in departments Cleverly has announced is precisely to bring migration under greater control
    Fantastic! But who wipes your grannie's a*** now?
    Think of this another way. Why are care workers paid so little? Because we can easily import people to work in care from abroad. Until we change that, care workers will continue to get paid very little.
    Will this increase the cost of care? Of course. But care is only cheap because we pay carers - I think most people can agree - an unreasonably small amount for a job which most of us would not want to do; and we only do that because we are importing carers from abroad.
    Immigration is very much the wrong answer to this particular problem.
  • Options
    .
    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    Is that why we have historically unprecedented levels of immigration?

    We have unprecedented levels because the current Government (sole qualification for membership, support BoZo and Brexit) are spectacularly incompetent.

    Really, really bad at their job.

    Useless.

    Worthless.

    They thank you for your vote...
    I'm really looking forward to the immigration numbers under a Starmer government. If you think THIS lot are really, really bad at their job... At least they aren't riven by a faction wanting to effectively open the borders.
    Our borders are open now. How would we tell the difference between now and this dystopian nightmare you predict?
    Out of control immigration is a false narrative. The remedy to this confected scandal, will after yesterday be even bigger hospital crises and care homes closing like fury. Arses and elbows don't even come into it.
    There is a significant proportion of the population who don't understand why we didn't send all these foreign workers home after Brexit so that all the jobs would rightly go to Brits. That this isn't possible is beyond their understanding. Hence the increasing wailing and gnashing about migration which is now at CRISIS ARGGHHHH levels in the Tory party.

    Last week's revelations about cheaper wage hurdles for migrant workers just revealed how disingenuous the government are. They are happy to gaslight the "foreigners go home" contingent of their vote. Whilst understanding the economic need for foreign labour.

    What I hope from Starmer is that we can have an honest conversation. The crank right will foam on about unchecked migration, but *they* have already given us that. We can have controlled migration or uncontrolled. Currently it is the latter. The former would be to everyone's benefit.
    The rise of the salary threshold for migrants to £38k and the ban on their bringing in departments Cleverly has announced is precisely to bring migration under greater control
    But why did you have such a low threshold for migrants at all? You can say "we are fixing this unlike Labour." But its YOUR issue. YOU did this. Whilst claiming to be doing the opposite.

    Its this level of desperate incompetence which is why even the majority of your remaining voters want an election.
  • Options
    RogerRoger Posts: 18,891

    Roger said:

    I can see that the voters want to be rid of the Tories but I can't see them being happy drifting in in Sunak's slipstream indefinitely. It can only be a matter of time till the first 48 sheet with Starmer dressed as Maggie arrives........

    Hello BJO, is that you?

    You are forgetting that in order to elicit change elections have to be won first.
    I'm starting to worry that this isn't a Wooden Horse of Troy operation but something altogether more permanent. Will the REAL Keir Starmer please give his followers a sign however fleeting or small....
  • Options
    DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 24,407
    edited December 2023

    Leon said:

    I agree with Elliot. Brexit is not remotely the disaster zone many take it for

    Indeed there is now a chance for the UK to exploit Brexit freedoms. AI is a crucial area. It will be a deep irony if it is a Labour government under Starmer that “makes Brexit work”

    Slightly disingenuous stat in the piece: "Fifteen years ago, the US and EU economies were of a similar size; today America’s is a third bigger." Losing the UK from the EU is a significant factor in that decline. Although losing the UK from the EU is something the EU might have prevented with a bit more creative thinking. The EU being a sclerotic body - one of the better arguments for Brexit - has been shown to be painfully true.
    That 15 years falling behind America is more a condemnation of George Osborne's austerity than Brexit.
  • Options
    CookieCookie Posts: 11,449

    Roger said:

    I can see that the voters want to be rid of the Tories but I can't see them being happy drifting in in Sunak's slipstream indefinitely. It can only be a matter of time till the first 48 sheet with Starmer dressed as Maggie arrives........

    Hello BJO, is that you?

    You are forgetting that in order to elicit change elections have to be won first.
    Time to trot out one of my favourite theories: the size of the Conservative vote in a given general election is dependent largely on the scariness or otherwise of the Labour Party, not the attractiveness or otherwise of the Conservative Party. If SKS starts to drift Corbynwards, the Conservative share starts to drift upwards.
  • Options
    Cookie said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    Is that why we have historically unprecedented levels of immigration?

    We have unprecedented levels because the current Government (sole qualification for membership, support BoZo and Brexit) are spectacularly incompetent.

    Really, really bad at their job.

    Useless.

    Worthless.

    They thank you for your vote...
    I'm really looking forward to the immigration numbers under a Starmer government. If you think THIS lot are really, really bad at their job... At least they aren't riven by a faction wanting to effectively open the borders.
    Our borders are open now. How would we tell the difference between now and this dystopian nightmare you predict?
    Out of control immigration is a false narrative. The remedy to this confected scandal, will after yesterday be even bigger hospital crises and care homes closing like fury. Arses and elbows don't even come into it.
    There is a significant proportion of the population who don't understand why we didn't send all these foreign workers home after Brexit so that all the jobs would rightly go to Brits. That this isn't possible is beyond their understanding. Hence the increasing wailing and gnashing about migration which is now at CRISIS ARGGHHHH levels in the Tory party.

    Last week's revelations about cheaper wage hurdles for migrant workers just revealed how disingenuous the government are. They are happy to gaslight the "foreigners go home" contingent of their vote. Whilst understanding the economic need for foreign labour.

    What I hope from Starmer is that we can have an honest conversation. The crank right will foam on about unchecked migration, but *they* have already given us that. We can have controlled migration or uncontrolled. Currently it is the latter. The former would be to everyone's benefit.
    The rise of the salary threshold for migrants to £38k and the ban on their bringing in departments Cleverly has announced is precisely to bring migration under greater control
    Fantastic! But who wipes your grannie's a*** now?
    Think of this another way. Why are care workers paid so little? Because we can easily import people to work in care from abroad. Until we change that, care workers will continue to get paid very little.
    Will this increase the cost of care? Of course. But care is only cheap because we pay carers - I think most people can agree - an unreasonably small amount for a job which most of us would not want to do; and we only do that because we are importing carers from abroad.
    Immigration is very much the wrong answer to this particular problem.
    And that is a valid conversation to have. We get what we pay for. Lets take care as an example:
    We don't want to pay for all the preventative measures to stop people sliding into care
    We don't want to be stuck caring for our own relatives
    We don't want to pay for care homes that aren't dangerously understaffed
    We don't want to pay salaries for the people who care for our relatives
    What the Tories and their handful of voters seem to want is for people to just die quickly and quietly and thus remove the problem. Not their relatives of course, the other people.

    Caring is an much of a vocation as healthcare. We could and should elevate it as a priority. Brown proposed it in his dying months. Davey passionately advocates it. But the Tories and big media ensure that "why should I pay" is the prevalent mood. So we get what we pay for...
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,427

    TOPPING said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    Is that why we have historically unprecedented levels of immigration?

    We have unprecedented levels because the current Government (sole qualification for membership, support BoZo and Brexit) are spectacularly incompetent.

    Really, really bad at their job.

    Useless.

    Worthless.

    They thank you for your vote...
    I'm really looking forward to the immigration numbers under a Starmer government. If you think THIS lot are really, really bad at their job... At least they aren't riven by a faction wanting to effectively open the borders.
    When we had more or less open borders (ie when we were in the EU) immigration was a third the level it is now.
    This is the reality. So many millions voted to Take Back Control of the border so that they saw less foreigners. Don't tell me I am wrong on their motivations, go back to 2016 and look at what they said.

    So we have left the EU, ended the right to live and work, and yet there are way more people now than there were then. Yes the Tories are incompetent, but there is a reality that few want to face up to:

    We have too many economically inactive people unable to fill the jobs that we need doing. I am not blaming the inactive - many can't take the work on offer because of lack of childcare / transport / wrong part of the country etc etc etc. So we need migrants. We did before, we do now, we will in the future.

    Or, we take an axe to things we need. Lets have a heavily downsized NHS because we don't want foreigners but we won't pay to train our own people. Lets have elderly care based in the family home rather than a care home which we can't find staff for. Lets have less hotels and coffee shops and food production and all the other things that rely on foreign labour.

    A grown up conversation to hold reality up to the people whose natural parochial bigotry has been gaslit to terrifying levels for the benefit of right wing politicians. You can have what you want. Are you willing to pay the price for getting it?
    So let’s discuss the NHS

    Since 2009 the number of FTEs has increased by 25% to more than 1.4 million

    What additional services are being delivered by those additional 300,000 employees?

    The root problem we have is horrifically poor productivity. If we could redeploy even a small percentage of that staff for other roles, for example, then hiring pressures would be massively reduced in other sectors. Alternatively we might choose to significant enhance delivery of health outcomes using the additional resources

    https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/projects/nhs-in-a-nutshell/nhs-workforce
    @Foxy is the expert on the mechanics inside the NHS. Have the government not scrapped the funding for a whole load of preventative healthcare? So instead of spending £1 preventing someone getting ill we now need to spend £10 on treating the inevitable result. We're pouring record amounts into the NHS and simultaneously starving front line healthcare. So what are we spending the money on?
    That’s always been my question. And no one has had a good answer - it usually gets responses of “well don’t you want cancer patients to live!” Or “evil drug companies!”

    Neither of which are true or helpful remarks
    You are forgetting "Sack All The Managers And Admin Staff!". Because the laundry just does itself, and paperclips buy themselves.
    Laundry should be outsourced and paper clips should be centrally procured on a website rather than having a local procurement function
    Laundry is often outsourced. But someone has to actually monitor the contract etc. Unless you want @Foxy doing it. I think he has some kind of "healing the sick" gag he wants to waste his time on, not laundry.

    The suggestion about central procurement works for some items (see drug buying). And is used. But is often the poster child for how to spend far too much in a stupid, inflexible contract.

    For example, years ago, my wife worked for a company that had done a deal with BT for broadband for home working. Usage of the system was mandated. A huge, fixed price contract had been negotiated. So they were stuck, after a couple of years, with an expensive, low performance offering.

    It is actually better and cheaper for many simple items, for the hospital to negotiate its own toilet paper supply etc.

    Good Management and Admin are utterly vital to the performance of an organisation.
  • Options
    NerysHughesNerysHughes Posts: 3,347
    Cookie said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    Is that why we have historically unprecedented levels of immigration?

    We have unprecedented levels because the current Government (sole qualification for membership, support BoZo and Brexit) are spectacularly incompetent.

    Really, really bad at their job.

    Useless.

    Worthless.

    They thank you for your vote...
    I'm really looking forward to the immigration numbers under a Starmer government. If you think THIS lot are really, really bad at their job... At least they aren't riven by a faction wanting to effectively open the borders.
    Our borders are open now. How would we tell the difference between now and this dystopian nightmare you predict?
    Out of control immigration is a false narrative. The remedy to this confected scandal, will after yesterday be even bigger hospital crises and care homes closing like fury. Arses and elbows don't even come into it.
    There is a significant proportion of the population who don't understand why we didn't send all these foreign workers home after Brexit so that all the jobs would rightly go to Brits. That this isn't possible is beyond their understanding. Hence the increasing wailing and gnashing about migration which is now at CRISIS ARGGHHHH levels in the Tory party.

    Last week's revelations about cheaper wage hurdles for migrant workers just revealed how disingenuous the government are. They are happy to gaslight the "foreigners go home" contingent of their vote. Whilst understanding the economic need for foreign labour.

    What I hope from Starmer is that we can have an honest conversation. The crank right will foam on about unchecked migration, but *they* have already given us that. We can have controlled migration or uncontrolled. Currently it is the latter. The former would be to everyone's benefit.
    The rise of the salary threshold for migrants to £38k and the ban on their bringing in departments Cleverly has announced is precisely to bring migration under greater control
    Fantastic! But who wipes your grannie's a*** now?
    Think of this another way. Why are care workers paid so little? Because we can easily import people to work in care from abroad. Until we change that, care workers will continue to get paid very little.
    Will this increase the cost of care? Of course. But care is only cheap because we pay carers - I think most people can agree - an unreasonably small amount for a job which most of us would not want to do; and we only do that because we are importing carers from abroad.
    Immigration is very much the wrong answer to this particular problem.
    Care is cheap? The monthly average cost of residential care is £3290 and receiving nursing care in a care home costs on average £4160.per month.
  • Options

    Cookie said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    Is that why we have historically unprecedented levels of immigration?

    We have unprecedented levels because the current Government (sole qualification for membership, support BoZo and Brexit) are spectacularly incompetent.

    Really, really bad at their job.

    Useless.

    Worthless.

    They thank you for your vote...
    I'm really looking forward to the immigration numbers under a Starmer government. If you think THIS lot are really, really bad at their job... At least they aren't riven by a faction wanting to effectively open the borders.
    Our borders are open now. How would we tell the difference between now and this dystopian nightmare you predict?
    Out of control immigration is a false narrative. The remedy to this confected scandal, will after yesterday be even bigger hospital crises and care homes closing like fury. Arses and elbows don't even come into it.
    There is a significant proportion of the population who don't understand why we didn't send all these foreign workers home after Brexit so that all the jobs would rightly go to Brits. That this isn't possible is beyond their understanding. Hence the increasing wailing and gnashing about migration which is now at CRISIS ARGGHHHH levels in the Tory party.

    Last week's revelations about cheaper wage hurdles for migrant workers just revealed how disingenuous the government are. They are happy to gaslight the "foreigners go home" contingent of their vote. Whilst understanding the economic need for foreign labour.

    What I hope from Starmer is that we can have an honest conversation. The crank right will foam on about unchecked migration, but *they* have already given us that. We can have controlled migration or uncontrolled. Currently it is the latter. The former would be to everyone's benefit.
    The rise of the salary threshold for migrants to £38k and the ban on their bringing in departments Cleverly has announced is precisely to bring migration under greater control
    Fantastic! But who wipes your grannie's a*** now?
    Think of this another way. Why are care workers paid so little? Because we can easily import people to work in care from abroad. Until we change that, care workers will continue to get paid very little.
    Will this increase the cost of care? Of course. But care is only cheap because we pay carers - I think most people can agree - an unreasonably small amount for a job which most of us would not want to do; and we only do that because we are importing carers from abroad.
    Immigration is very much the wrong answer to this particular problem.
    And that is a valid conversation to have. We get what we pay for. Lets take care as an example:
    We don't want to pay for all the preventative measures to stop people sliding into care
    We don't want to be stuck caring for our own relatives
    We don't want to pay for care homes that aren't dangerously understaffed
    We don't want to pay salaries for the people who care for our relatives
    What the Tories and their handful of voters seem to want is for people to just die quickly and quietly and thus remove the problem. Not their relatives of course, the other people.

    Caring is an much of a vocation as healthcare. We could and should elevate it as a priority. Brown proposed it in his dying months. Davey passionately advocates it. But the Tories and big media ensure that "why should I pay" is the prevalent mood. So we get what we pay for...
    I think May advocated it in 2017 and that was one of the key reasons she did not get a majority.
  • Options
    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,205
    edited December 2023

    Another ludicrous piece of manoeuvring yesterday by Sunak. The Blood Poisoning amendment - why would you oppose that?

    No wonder most remaining Tory voters want an early election. Even they can see the party is poison.

    There is an argument from principle: you should wait for the final report before implementing the recommendations

    Of course it’s almost certain he will recommend this but you don’t want to set a precedent
    Not this again. There is no need to wait for the full inquiry report before paying compensation. The two are separate issues. Compensation should be dealt with separately from the issue of what happened and why and what lessons are to be learned.

    We know who the victims are. We know what their losses are. We know already that the government was at fault. 3/4 of them have died. They are now dying at the rate of 1 every 4 days. If we wait any longer there won't be any victims to compensate, only their families. This is not good enough. The judge has already recommended that compensation be extended to others affected. There is no good reason to delay - unless your objective is to avoid paying anything altogether. Justice delayed is justice denied.

    Other countries have managed to compensate victims and hold those responsible accountable. This ineffable slowness is a British disease and it has to stop - as I wrote here (https://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2023/11/15/what-are-ministers-for/): -

    "What we have instead is an unholy trinity of poor commissioning, false economies and weak supervision and oversight. Only when the matter goes “Splat” do we then roll out the best lawyers money can buy, embark on gold-plated, fantastically detailed and interminably long inquiries and produce splendid reports few read and even fewer act on. This is, bluntly, arse about face."

    The state is now actively malign towards its citizens. There will be a price to pay for this one day, I hope.

    But the vote last night was a small step towards correcting this and starting to play fair with individuals and their families who have suffered hugely at the hands of the state.
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,311

    Cookie said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    Is that why we have historically unprecedented levels of immigration?

    We have unprecedented levels because the current Government (sole qualification for membership, support BoZo and Brexit) are spectacularly incompetent.

    Really, really bad at their job.

    Useless.

    Worthless.

    They thank you for your vote...
    I'm really looking forward to the immigration numbers under a Starmer government. If you think THIS lot are really, really bad at their job... At least they aren't riven by a faction wanting to effectively open the borders.
    Our borders are open now. How would we tell the difference between now and this dystopian nightmare you predict?
    Out of control immigration is a false narrative. The remedy to this confected scandal, will after yesterday be even bigger hospital crises and care homes closing like fury. Arses and elbows don't even come into it.
    There is a significant proportion of the population who don't understand why we didn't send all these foreign workers home after Brexit so that all the jobs would rightly go to Brits. That this isn't possible is beyond their understanding. Hence the increasing wailing and gnashing about migration which is now at CRISIS ARGGHHHH levels in the Tory party.

    Last week's revelations about cheaper wage hurdles for migrant workers just revealed how disingenuous the government are. They are happy to gaslight the "foreigners go home" contingent of their vote. Whilst understanding the economic need for foreign labour.

    What I hope from Starmer is that we can have an honest conversation. The crank right will foam on about unchecked migration, but *they* have already given us that. We can have controlled migration or uncontrolled. Currently it is the latter. The former would be to everyone's benefit.
    The rise of the salary threshold for migrants to £38k and the ban on their bringing in departments Cleverly has announced is precisely to bring migration under greater control
    Fantastic! But who wipes your grannie's a*** now?
    Think of this another way. Why are care workers paid so little? Because we can easily import people to work in care from abroad. Until we change that, care workers will continue to get paid very little.
    Will this increase the cost of care? Of course. But care is only cheap because we pay carers - I think most people can agree - an unreasonably small amount for a job which most of us would not want to do; and we only do that because we are importing carers from abroad.
    Immigration is very much the wrong answer to this particular problem.
    And that is a valid conversation to have. We get what we pay for. Lets take care as an example:
    We don't want to pay for all the preventative measures to stop people sliding into care
    We don't want to be stuck caring for our own relatives
    We don't want to pay for care homes that aren't dangerously understaffed
    We don't want to pay salaries for the people who care for our relatives
    What the Tories and their handful of voters seem to want is for people to just die quickly and quietly and thus remove the problem. Not their relatives of course, the other people.

    Caring is an much of a vocation as healthcare. We could and should elevate it as a priority. Brown proposed it in his dying months. Davey passionately advocates it. But the Tories and big media ensure that "why should I pay" is the prevalent mood. So we get what we pay for...
    It's not the politicians. It's us. We have time and again shown that we don't want to pay for a better level of healthcare.

    Now, as many might recall on here, I believe that there is a fundamental problem within the NHS (eg a few weeks ago headline in The Times: "Toxic NHS...."), regardless of funding but, as Lab found in 1997, although a huge waste of money, nevertheless hosing money at the problem will have an effect, albeit not structurally.
  • Options

    Cookie said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    Is that why we have historically unprecedented levels of immigration?

    We have unprecedented levels because the current Government (sole qualification for membership, support BoZo and Brexit) are spectacularly incompetent.

    Really, really bad at their job.

    Useless.

    Worthless.

    They thank you for your vote...
    I'm really looking forward to the immigration numbers under a Starmer government. If you think THIS lot are really, really bad at their job... At least they aren't riven by a faction wanting to effectively open the borders.
    Our borders are open now. How would we tell the difference between now and this dystopian nightmare you predict?
    Out of control immigration is a false narrative. The remedy to this confected scandal, will after yesterday be even bigger hospital crises and care homes closing like fury. Arses and elbows don't even come into it.
    There is a significant proportion of the population who don't understand why we didn't send all these foreign workers home after Brexit so that all the jobs would rightly go to Brits. That this isn't possible is beyond their understanding. Hence the increasing wailing and gnashing about migration which is now at CRISIS ARGGHHHH levels in the Tory party.

    Last week's revelations about cheaper wage hurdles for migrant workers just revealed how disingenuous the government are. They are happy to gaslight the "foreigners go home" contingent of their vote. Whilst understanding the economic need for foreign labour.

    What I hope from Starmer is that we can have an honest conversation. The crank right will foam on about unchecked migration, but *they* have already given us that. We can have controlled migration or uncontrolled. Currently it is the latter. The former would be to everyone's benefit.
    The rise of the salary threshold for migrants to £38k and the ban on their bringing in departments Cleverly has announced is precisely to bring migration under greater control
    Fantastic! But who wipes your grannie's a*** now?
    Think of this another way. Why are care workers paid so little? Because we can easily import people to work in care from abroad. Until we change that, care workers will continue to get paid very little.
    Will this increase the cost of care? Of course. But care is only cheap because we pay carers - I think most people can agree - an unreasonably small amount for a job which most of us would not want to do; and we only do that because we are importing carers from abroad.
    Immigration is very much the wrong answer to this particular problem.
    Care is cheap? The monthly average cost of residential care is £3290 and receiving nursing care in a care home costs on average £4160.per month.
    Care IS cheap. We pay an awful lot of money to secure the very basic level of care. Like so many of our public services we're spending record amounts for frontline services starved of resources. So where is the money going? And we can't even say that Care provider companies are raking it in - they are not.

    Is it not the case that the framework surrounding care is the cost? We're spending ever larger amounts trying to fund an ever larger and more complex regulatory framework?
  • Options
    carnforthcarnforth Posts: 3,212

    Cookie said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    Is that why we have historically unprecedented levels of immigration?

    We have unprecedented levels because the current Government (sole qualification for membership, support BoZo and Brexit) are spectacularly incompetent.

    Really, really bad at their job.

    Useless.

    Worthless.

    They thank you for your vote...
    I'm really looking forward to the immigration numbers under a Starmer government. If you think THIS lot are really, really bad at their job... At least they aren't riven by a faction wanting to effectively open the borders.
    Our borders are open now. How would we tell the difference between now and this dystopian nightmare you predict?
    Out of control immigration is a false narrative. The remedy to this confected scandal, will after yesterday be even bigger hospital crises and care homes closing like fury. Arses and elbows don't even come into it.
    There is a significant proportion of the population who don't understand why we didn't send all these foreign workers home after Brexit so that all the jobs would rightly go to Brits. That this isn't possible is beyond their understanding. Hence the increasing wailing and gnashing about migration which is now at CRISIS ARGGHHHH levels in the Tory party.

    Last week's revelations about cheaper wage hurdles for migrant workers just revealed how disingenuous the government are. They are happy to gaslight the "foreigners go home" contingent of their vote. Whilst understanding the economic need for foreign labour.

    What I hope from Starmer is that we can have an honest conversation. The crank right will foam on about unchecked migration, but *they* have already given us that. We can have controlled migration or uncontrolled. Currently it is the latter. The former would be to everyone's benefit.
    The rise of the salary threshold for migrants to £38k and the ban on their bringing in departments Cleverly has announced is precisely to bring migration under greater control
    Fantastic! But who wipes your grannie's a*** now?
    Think of this another way. Why are care workers paid so little? Because we can easily import people to work in care from abroad. Until we change that, care workers will continue to get paid very little.
    Will this increase the cost of care? Of course. But care is only cheap because we pay carers - I think most people can agree - an unreasonably small amount for a job which most of us would not want to do; and we only do that because we are importing carers from abroad.
    Immigration is very much the wrong answer to this particular problem.
    Care is cheap? The monthly average cost of residential care is £3290 and receiving nursing care in a care home costs on average £4160.per month.
    A basic hotel room with en suite, all meals, entertainment, and 24 hour nursing care for £4160 / (365/12) = £130 per night is pretty cheap. Or at least, expensive but good value.
  • Options
    kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 3,955

    Cookie said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    Is that why we have historically unprecedented levels of immigration?

    We have unprecedented levels because the current Government (sole qualification for membership, support BoZo and Brexit) are spectacularly incompetent.

    Really, really bad at their job.

    Useless.

    Worthless.

    They thank you for your vote...
    I'm really looking forward to the immigration numbers under a Starmer government. If you think THIS lot are really, really bad at their job... At least they aren't riven by a faction wanting to effectively open the borders.
    Our borders are open now. How would we tell the difference between now and this dystopian nightmare you predict?
    Out of control immigration is a false narrative. The remedy to this confected scandal, will after yesterday be even bigger hospital crises and care homes closing like fury. Arses and elbows don't even come into it.
    There is a significant proportion of the population who don't understand why we didn't send all these foreign workers home after Brexit so that all the jobs would rightly go to Brits. That this isn't possible is beyond their understanding. Hence the increasing wailing and gnashing about migration which is now at CRISIS ARGGHHHH levels in the Tory party.

    Last week's revelations about cheaper wage hurdles for migrant workers just revealed how disingenuous the government are. They are happy to gaslight the "foreigners go home" contingent of their vote. Whilst understanding the economic need for foreign labour.

    What I hope from Starmer is that we can have an honest conversation. The crank right will foam on about unchecked migration, but *they* have already given us that. We can have controlled migration or uncontrolled. Currently it is the latter. The former would be to everyone's benefit.
    The rise of the salary threshold for migrants to £38k and the ban on their bringing in departments Cleverly has announced is precisely to bring migration under greater control
    Fantastic! But who wipes your grannie's a*** now?
    Think of this another way. Why are care workers paid so little? Because we can easily import people to work in care from abroad. Until we change that, care workers will continue to get paid very little.
    Will this increase the cost of care? Of course. But care is only cheap because we pay carers - I think most people can agree - an unreasonably small amount for a job which most of us would not want to do; and we only do that because we are importing carers from abroad.
    Immigration is very much the wrong answer to this particular problem.
    Care is cheap? The monthly average cost of residential care is £3290 and receiving nursing care in a care home costs on average £4160.per month.
    An extraordinary figure, when you consider that a premier inn, usually better staffed, and absolutely better furnished, can be had for under a hundred a night.
This discussion has been closed.