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It’s 52% vs 48% all over again – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 11,014
edited December 2023 in General
It’s 52% vs 48% all over again – politicalbetting.com

Excluding Don't Knows this translates as 52% support Cameron's return and 48% oppose Cameron's return.52% is a lot higher than the Tory VI excluding DKs. https://t.co/MahhqRCRoj

Read the full story here

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    First like Dave in every general election he contested as Tory leader.
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    Really happy this poll on Christmas films by @OpiniumResearch doesn’t have Die Hard on the list.




    https://twitter.com/TSEofPB/status/1729153470765428937
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    DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 24,312
    edited November 2023
    New Foreign Secretary David Cameron is no longer entitled to claim the Public Duty Costs Allowance available to former prime ministers.

    It is meant to help fund 'necessary office costs and secretarial costs arising from their special position in 'public life'.

    The annual allowance is £115,000 — and in the past four years Cameron has drawn £440,000
    ...
    ...
    Jonathan Aitken, former Tory Cabinet minister but now a chaplain after a spell in jail for perjury, backs Cameron's return. Aitken was a junior speechwriter at the time of Ted Heath's 1970-74 government. 'Sir Alec Douglas-Home (PM 1963-64) was recalled by Heath to serve as a foreign secretary... I admired his charm, his integrity, his long experience, and his sure diplomatic touch in difficult foreign capitals,' he said. 'David Cameron will surely bring many of the same qualities to his new role.'

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-12793669/ANDREW-PIERCE-Lord-Dave-counting-cost-new-role.html
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,983
    2019 Conservative voters are split on whether Cameron will do a good job as Foreign Secretary, 35% good and 35% bad.

    35% of 2019 Labour voters though think he will do a bad job to 21% a good job

    https://redfieldandwiltonstrategies.com/british-voters-have-mixed-views-of-david-camerons-legacy-as-prime-minister/
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    Mr Sunak surely cannot want Mr Cameron's expertise on foreign policy. His major achievement in that field was to destroy Libya, replacing the despot Gaddafi with wild, burning chaos. This one action triggered the giant explosion in human trafficking across the Mediterranean which has utterly transformed Europe and European politics for the worse. He also supported the failed attempt to overthrow the nasty Syrian dictator, Bashar Assad, supposedly in the name of democracy and freedom.

    The problem was that the West allied itself with various tyrannies in the Gulf, and with a local branch of Al Qaeda, to achieve this. What could possibly go wrong? The great piles of corpses, the vast mounds of rubble and the millions of refugees, bear witness to the total failure of that policy, still barely understood by most in this country.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-12790719/PETER-HITCHENS-Lord-Slippery-Tripoli-david-cameron-centrist-lie.html

    Peter Hitchens is not a fan.
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    boulayboulay Posts: 3,909

    Really happy this poll on Christmas films by @OpiniumResearch doesn’t have Die Hard on the list.




    https://twitter.com/TSEofPB/status/1729153470765428937

    I did get sent a snap of your Christmas decoration at PB Towers under your temporary control. Minimalist but undoubtedly Christmassy.


  • Options
    I am looking forward to Cameron's first visit as FS to Rwanda, for the bantz.
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    On (Previous) Topic - note that TSE referred to Boris Johnson exMP & exPM, as former First Lord of the Treasury.

    Personally would prefer to think of him as former First At-Sea Lord.
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    boulay said:

    Really happy this poll on Christmas films by @OpiniumResearch doesn’t have Die Hard on the list.




    https://twitter.com/TSEofPB/status/1729153470765428937

    I did get sent a snap of your Christmas decoration at PB Towers under your temporary control. Minimalist but undoubtedly Christmassy.


    So many of my friends have bought me this.

    https://www.amazon.co.uk/die-hard-advent-calendar/s?k=die+hard+advent+calendar
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    Mr Sunak surely cannot want Mr Cameron's expertise on foreign policy. His major achievement in that field was to destroy Libya, replacing the despot Gaddafi with wild, burning chaos. This one action triggered the giant explosion in human trafficking across the Mediterranean which has utterly transformed Europe and European politics for the worse. He also supported the failed attempt to overthrow the nasty Syrian dictator, Bashar Assad, supposedly in the name of democracy and freedom.

    The problem was that the West allied itself with various tyrannies in the Gulf, and with a local branch of Al Qaeda, to achieve this. What could possibly go wrong? The great piles of corpses, the vast mounds of rubble and the millions of refugees, bear witness to the total failure of that policy, still barely understood by most in this country.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-12790719/PETER-HITCHENS-Lord-Slippery-Tripoli-david-cameron-centrist-lie.html

    Peter Hitchens is not a fan.

    Last week, Mr Slippery, the man who sacrificed the country to save the Tory Party, became Lord Slippery of Chipping Norton.

    'sacrificed the country'? Am I right to read that as a disapprobation of Brexit?
  • Options
    OFF TOPIC - Looks as though US Rep. "George" "Santos" (R-WTF???) is gonna get booted from the US House this week, possibly as soon as tomorrow, Tuesday.

    Washington Post - Expulsions from Congress are extremely rare. Only five members of the House have ever been expelled in American history: Three lawmakers were expelled in 1861, at the start of the Civil War, for fighting for the Confederacy. Then-Rep. Michael Myers (D-Pa.) was expelled in 1980 after he was convicted of bribery, and Rep. James Traficant (D-Ohio) was expelled in 2002 after being convicted of racketeering, bribery and fraud.
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,800

    Mr Sunak surely cannot want Mr Cameron's expertise on foreign policy. His major achievement in that field was to destroy Libya, replacing the despot Gaddafi with wild, burning chaos. This one action triggered the giant explosion in human trafficking across the Mediterranean which has utterly transformed Europe and European politics for the worse. He also supported the failed attempt to overthrow the nasty Syrian dictator, Bashar Assad, supposedly in the name of democracy and freedom.

    The problem was that the West allied itself with various tyrannies in the Gulf, and with a local branch of Al Qaeda, to achieve this. What could possibly go wrong? The great piles of corpses, the vast mounds of rubble and the millions of refugees, bear witness to the total failure of that policy, still barely understood by most in this country.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-12790719/PETER-HITCHENS-Lord-Slippery-Tripoli-david-cameron-centrist-lie.html

    Peter Hitchens is not a fan.

    Is he a fan of anything?

    The alternative in Libya was simply to permit a bloodbath, which would have resulted in ... a vast wave of refugees.

    The ruin of Syria is entirely upon Assad's shoulders, and those of IS.

    Inevitably, he blames us for provoking Putin. It's all very much "The big boy made me do it."
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    eristdooferistdoof Posts: 4,887
    I don't think 'Support for Cameron's return' has much to do with 'Voting intention for the Tories'. For a start the first one is a straight Yes/No question, where as the second is chosing a preference. The comparison of 52% with 25ish% is like comparing apples and durians.
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    Mr Sunak surely cannot want Mr Cameron's expertise on foreign policy. His major achievement in that field was to destroy Libya, replacing the despot Gaddafi with wild, burning chaos. This one action triggered the giant explosion in human trafficking across the Mediterranean which has utterly transformed Europe and European politics for the worse. He also supported the failed attempt to overthrow the nasty Syrian dictator, Bashar Assad, supposedly in the name of democracy and freedom.

    The problem was that the West allied itself with various tyrannies in the Gulf, and with a local branch of Al Qaeda, to achieve this. What could possibly go wrong? The great piles of corpses, the vast mounds of rubble and the millions of refugees, bear witness to the total failure of that policy, still barely understood by most in this country.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-12790719/PETER-HITCHENS-Lord-Slippery-Tripoli-david-cameron-centrist-lie.html

    Peter Hitchens is not a fan.

    Peter Hitchens is a Putin apologist.

    Getting criticised by Hitchens is like getting criticised by Piers Corbyn.
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,052
    Sean_F said:

    Mr Sunak surely cannot want Mr Cameron's expertise on foreign policy. His major achievement in that field was to destroy Libya, replacing the despot Gaddafi with wild, burning chaos. This one action triggered the giant explosion in human trafficking across the Mediterranean which has utterly transformed Europe and European politics for the worse. He also supported the failed attempt to overthrow the nasty Syrian dictator, Bashar Assad, supposedly in the name of democracy and freedom.

    The problem was that the West allied itself with various tyrannies in the Gulf, and with a local branch of Al Qaeda, to achieve this. What could possibly go wrong? The great piles of corpses, the vast mounds of rubble and the millions of refugees, bear witness to the total failure of that policy, still barely understood by most in this country.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-12790719/PETER-HITCHENS-Lord-Slippery-Tripoli-david-cameron-centrist-lie.html

    Peter Hitchens is not a fan.

    Is he a fan of anything?
    Sahra Wagenknecht, apparently:

    In Germany, the fascinating Sahra Wagenknecht, an Iranian-German former Communist raised and educated in Marxist East Germany, has set herself up as an apostle of an entirely new politics – Left-wing on social policy, but opposed to mass immigration.

    Unlike many of her concrete-headed Left-wing comrades, who have for years told their working-class supporters to like mass migration or lump it, Ms Wagenknecht has grasped these sudden vast increases in population make perfectly reasonable people genuinely unhappy.

    Until now, the uncomfortably Right-wing Alliance For Germany (AFD) party has been picking up their votes. Ms Wagenknecht thinks this should stop and has sensibly argued: 'Germans don't vote for the AFD because they're Right-wing. They vote for them because they're angry.' Imagine a smart and combative female combination of Nigel Farage and Jeremy Corbyn, and you might get close.
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    eristdooferistdoof Posts: 4,887

    First like Dave in every general election he contested as Tory leader.

    But not in every referendum.
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    Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 7,532
    I'd assumed that the title Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton was a satirical invention by Private Eye.
    I gather, however, that it's for real.
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    LeonLeon Posts: 46,994

    Sean_F said:

    Mr Sunak surely cannot want Mr Cameron's expertise on foreign policy. His major achievement in that field was to destroy Libya, replacing the despot Gaddafi with wild, burning chaos. This one action triggered the giant explosion in human trafficking across the Mediterranean which has utterly transformed Europe and European politics for the worse. He also supported the failed attempt to overthrow the nasty Syrian dictator, Bashar Assad, supposedly in the name of democracy and freedom.

    The problem was that the West allied itself with various tyrannies in the Gulf, and with a local branch of Al Qaeda, to achieve this. What could possibly go wrong? The great piles of corpses, the vast mounds of rubble and the millions of refugees, bear witness to the total failure of that policy, still barely understood by most in this country.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-12790719/PETER-HITCHENS-Lord-Slippery-Tripoli-david-cameron-centrist-lie.html

    Peter Hitchens is not a fan.

    Is he a fan of anything?
    Sahra Wagenknecht, apparently:

    In Germany, the fascinating Sahra Wagenknecht, an Iranian-German former Communist raised and educated in Marxist East Germany, has set herself up as an apostle of an entirely new politics – Left-wing on social policy, but opposed to mass immigration.

    Unlike many of her concrete-headed Left-wing comrades, who have for years told their working-class supporters to like mass migration or lump it, Ms Wagenknecht has grasped these sudden vast increases in population make perfectly reasonable people genuinely unhappy.

    Until now, the uncomfortably Right-wing Alliance For Germany (AFD) party has been picking up their votes. Ms Wagenknecht thinks this should stop and has sensibly argued: 'Germans don't vote for the AFD because they're Right-wing. They vote for them because they're angry.' Imagine a smart and combative female combination of Nigel Farage and Jeremy Corbyn, and you might get close.
    The era of mass immigration is coming to an end
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    I'd assumed that the title Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton was a satirical invention by Private Eye.
    I gather, however, that it's for real.

    Divine intervention.

    Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton it is now. He sounds like he solves mysteries from the pen of Dorothy L Sayers. In fact, he told the House of Lords, it was the vicar’s wife who telephoned to say he absolutely had to take the village name (so I guess we’re lucky the rector of Pratts Bottom didn’t get to him first), revealing all in a debut speech that was elegant and funny.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2023/11/21/lord-david-cameron-offers-brexit-boris-jokes-debut-speech/
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    52% wrong again.
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    Within the last 2 polls RW had the Cons at 27 so that 28 might not be too much of a launchpad. For most people this stuff is very much inside baseball. Rather as politicos work hard into the dark hours on their statements and speeches but once people have decided not to listen, have learned from experience not to believe, it really does not matter what you say
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,938
    Given Lord Cameron's "issues" with Greensill, it was inappropriate to bring him back. I would have been much happier if, for example, William Hague was returned to the cabinet.
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    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,326
    I think the poll bears out my theory that most people don't care who the Foreign Minister is. It's clearly a very important job in terms of practical negotiating behind the scenes, but seen by many as largely irrelevant to everyday life and subservient to the PM in terms of overall policy.
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    LeonLeon Posts: 46,994
    So it turns out the Algerian child stabber in Dublin was once the subject of a deportation order. Which he fought for five years. No wonder the Gardai wanted to keep it all quiet

    https://x.com/hermannkelly/status/1728915680744157497?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw
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    isamisam Posts: 40,911
    edited November 2023

    Mr Sunak surely cannot want Mr Cameron's expertise on foreign policy. His major achievement in that field was to destroy Libya, replacing the despot Gaddafi with wild, burning chaos. This one action triggered the giant explosion in human trafficking across the Mediterranean which has utterly transformed Europe and European politics for the worse. He also supported the failed attempt to overthrow the nasty Syrian dictator, Bashar Assad, supposedly in the name of democracy and freedom.

    The problem was that the West allied itself with various tyrannies in the Gulf, and with a local branch of Al Qaeda, to achieve this. What could possibly go wrong? The great piles of corpses, the vast mounds of rubble and the millions of refugees, bear witness to the total failure of that policy, still barely understood by most in this country.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-12790719/PETER-HITCHENS-Lord-Slippery-Tripoli-david-cameron-centrist-lie.html

    Peter Hitchens is not a fan.

    Last week, Mr Slippery, the man who sacrificed the country to save the Tory Party, became Lord Slippery of Chipping Norton.

    'sacrificed the country'? Am I right to read that as a disapprobation of Brexit?
    Hitchens wasn’t a fan of the referendum, he thought we should leave the EU by electing a party with the policy in its manifesto
  • Options

    Mr Sunak surely cannot want Mr Cameron's expertise on foreign policy. His major achievement in that field was to destroy Libya, replacing the despot Gaddafi with wild, burning chaos. This one action triggered the giant explosion in human trafficking across the Mediterranean which has utterly transformed Europe and European politics for the worse. He also supported the failed attempt to overthrow the nasty Syrian dictator, Bashar Assad, supposedly in the name of democracy and freedom.

    The problem was that the West allied itself with various tyrannies in the Gulf, and with a local branch of Al Qaeda, to achieve this. What could possibly go wrong? The great piles of corpses, the vast mounds of rubble and the millions of refugees, bear witness to the total failure of that policy, still barely understood by most in this country.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-12790719/PETER-HITCHENS-Lord-Slippery-Tripoli-david-cameron-centrist-lie.html

    Peter Hitchens is not a fan.

    Peter Hitchens is a Putin apologist.

    Getting criticised by Hitchens is like getting criticised by Piers Corbyn.
    But NOT as much fun, as getting criticized by "George Santos".
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    I think the poll bears out my theory that most people don't care who the Foreign Minister is. It's clearly a very important job in terms of practical negotiating behind the scenes, but seen by many as largely irrelevant to everyday life and subservient to the PM in terms of overall policy.

    Indeed.

    Dave could bring peace to the Middle East and it won’t change many votes whilst the cost of living crisis continues in the UK.
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    bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 7,586
    eristdoof said:

    First like Dave in every general election he contested as Tory leader.

    But not in every referendum.
    Three out of four* isn’t a bad record though.

    * Including the 2011 Welsh referendum.
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    LeonLeon Posts: 46,994
    Meanwhile, Ireland’s new Hate Speech laws are quite mind-blowingly Orwellian

    “People don’t realise how extreme Ireland’s hate speech bill is. Up to 12 months in prison for refusing to give password to your devices if suspected of committing hate speech. 12 months for refusing to allow the State read messages between you and your spouse. It’s authoritarian.”

    https://x.com/robertburke84/status/1728725632362651658?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw
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    David Cameron is trending on X.

    57 varieties of the same joke pointing out the coincidence of Cameron's return and our first case of new swine flu.
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    algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 10,508
    edited November 2023

    Sean_F said:

    Mr Sunak surely cannot want Mr Cameron's expertise on foreign policy. His major achievement in that field was to destroy Libya, replacing the despot Gaddafi with wild, burning chaos. This one action triggered the giant explosion in human trafficking across the Mediterranean which has utterly transformed Europe and European politics for the worse. He also supported the failed attempt to overthrow the nasty Syrian dictator, Bashar Assad, supposedly in the name of democracy and freedom.

    The problem was that the West allied itself with various tyrannies in the Gulf, and with a local branch of Al Qaeda, to achieve this. What could possibly go wrong? The great piles of corpses, the vast mounds of rubble and the millions of refugees, bear witness to the total failure of that policy, still barely understood by most in this country.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-12790719/PETER-HITCHENS-Lord-Slippery-Tripoli-david-cameron-centrist-lie.html

    Peter Hitchens is not a fan.

    Is he a fan of anything?
    Sahra Wagenknecht, apparently:

    In Germany, the fascinating Sahra Wagenknecht, an Iranian-German former Communist raised and educated in Marxist East Germany, has set herself up as an apostle of an entirely new politics – Left-wing on social policy, but opposed to mass immigration.

    Unlike many of her concrete-headed Left-wing comrades, who have for years told their working-class supporters to like mass migration or lump it, Ms Wagenknecht has grasped these sudden vast increases in population make perfectly reasonable people genuinely unhappy.

    Until now, the uncomfortably Right-wing Alliance For Germany (AFD) party has been picking up their votes. Ms Wagenknecht thinks this should stop and has sensibly argued: 'Germans don't vote for the AFD because they're Right-wing. They vote for them because they're angry.' Imagine a smart and combative female combination of Nigel Farage and Jeremy Corbyn, and you might get close.
    This whole type of nonsense has big consequences. It suits some highly manipulative groups behind the scenes to link ideas as packages. So if you are greenish, you are also pro-fluid gender identity, pro Palestine, anti Israel, pro Islam, iffy about Christians, anti police, pro- welfare rights, pro migration, pro cancel culture, against student loans, anti Brexit, pro UN, anti nationalist except when you are, anti banks etc.

    All of this has massively undermined the traditional centre left, and has been intellectually disastrous, encouraging group think even (!) among quite bright students (look at Oxford).

    It is just another version of the much derided populism. Starmer has a possible chance to rewrite this hackneyed script. He would do well to read Matthew Goodwin, throw it all out in the bin and then reassemble the useful parts into a coherent worldview.
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited November 2023
    Leon said:

    Meanwhile, Ireland’s new Hate Speech laws are quite mind-blowingly Orwellian

    “People don’t realise how extreme Ireland’s hate speech bill is. Up to 12 months in prison for refusing to give password to your devices if suspected of committing hate speech. 12 months for refusing to allow the State read messages between you and your spouse. It’s authoritarian.”

    https://x.com/robertburke84/status/1728725632362651658?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Given the nebulous nature of what is hate speech e.g. saying your gay nan looks like a police officer, that is pandoras box of giving the authorities extremely wide ranging powers.

    Where as the Irish PM has trouble identifying terrorists.
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    TimSTimS Posts: 9,554
    edited November 2023

    Sean_F said:

    Mr Sunak surely cannot want Mr Cameron's expertise on foreign policy. His major achievement in that field was to destroy Libya, replacing the despot Gaddafi with wild, burning chaos. This one action triggered the giant explosion in human trafficking across the Mediterranean which has utterly transformed Europe and European politics for the worse. He also supported the failed attempt to overthrow the nasty Syrian dictator, Bashar Assad, supposedly in the name of democracy and freedom.

    The problem was that the West allied itself with various tyrannies in the Gulf, and with a local branch of Al Qaeda, to achieve this. What could possibly go wrong? The great piles of corpses, the vast mounds of rubble and the millions of refugees, bear witness to the total failure of that policy, still barely understood by most in this country.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-12790719/PETER-HITCHENS-Lord-Slippery-Tripoli-david-cameron-centrist-lie.html

    Peter Hitchens is not a fan.

    Is he a fan of anything?
    Sahra Wagenknecht, apparently:

    In Germany, the fascinating Sahra Wagenknecht, an Iranian-German former Communist raised and educated in Marxist East Germany, has set herself up as an apostle of an entirely new politics – Left-wing on social policy, but opposed to mass immigration.

    Unlike many of her concrete-headed Left-wing comrades, who have for years told their working-class supporters to like mass migration or lump it, Ms Wagenknecht has grasped these sudden vast increases in population make perfectly reasonable people genuinely unhappy.

    Until now, the uncomfortably Right-wing Alliance For Germany (AFD) party has been picking up their votes. Ms Wagenknecht thinks this should stop and has sensibly argued: 'Germans don't vote for the AFD because they're Right-wing. They vote for them because they're angry.' Imagine a smart and combative female combination of Nigel Farage and Jeremy Corbyn, and you might get close.
    "An entirely new politics - Left-wing on social policy, but opposed to mass immigration".

    Not sure that's entirely new. Isn't it essentially what Pim Fortuyn stodd for in the Netherlands, and to a somewhat lesser extent (he is mixed on social policy) Geert Wilders?
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    148grss148grss Posts: 3,679

    Sean_F said:

    Mr Sunak surely cannot want Mr Cameron's expertise on foreign policy. His major achievement in that field was to destroy Libya, replacing the despot Gaddafi with wild, burning chaos. This one action triggered the giant explosion in human trafficking across the Mediterranean which has utterly transformed Europe and European politics for the worse. He also supported the failed attempt to overthrow the nasty Syrian dictator, Bashar Assad, supposedly in the name of democracy and freedom.

    The problem was that the West allied itself with various tyrannies in the Gulf, and with a local branch of Al Qaeda, to achieve this. What could possibly go wrong? The great piles of corpses, the vast mounds of rubble and the millions of refugees, bear witness to the total failure of that policy, still barely understood by most in this country.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-12790719/PETER-HITCHENS-Lord-Slippery-Tripoli-david-cameron-centrist-lie.html

    Peter Hitchens is not a fan.

    Is he a fan of anything?
    Sahra Wagenknecht, apparently:

    In Germany, the fascinating Sahra Wagenknecht, an Iranian-German former Communist raised and educated in Marxist East Germany, has set herself up as an apostle of an entirely new politics – Left-wing on social policy, but opposed to mass immigration.

    Unlike many of her concrete-headed Left-wing comrades, who have for years told their working-class supporters to like mass migration or lump it, Ms Wagenknecht has grasped these sudden vast increases in population make perfectly reasonable people genuinely unhappy.

    Until now, the uncomfortably Right-wing Alliance For Germany (AFD) party has been picking up their votes. Ms Wagenknecht thinks this should stop and has sensibly argued: 'Germans don't vote for the AFD because they're Right-wing. They vote for them because they're angry.' Imagine a smart and combative female combination of Nigel Farage and Jeremy Corbyn, and you might get close.
    Socialism for German nationals only? A nationalist socialism, perhaps. I'm sure that has never been tried before, and the consequences could only possibly be good. :neutral:

    Seriously, though, if the argument is "if we give in to the media narrative on immigrants as the enemy, then we can win and do left wing policies" then get ready for the next group the media will decide are the enemy. There's a famous cartoon of Hitler pointing at the name Socialist Nationalist where the first word is tiny and the second is predominant when talking to a crowd of workers, and then flipped with emphasis on Nationalist and a tiny Socialist when talking to business. I don't know much about Sahra Wagenknecht, but I'd be willing to put money on where the movement will end up.
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    isam said:

    Mr Sunak surely cannot want Mr Cameron's expertise on foreign policy. His major achievement in that field was to destroy Libya, replacing the despot Gaddafi with wild, burning chaos. This one action triggered the giant explosion in human trafficking across the Mediterranean which has utterly transformed Europe and European politics for the worse. He also supported the failed attempt to overthrow the nasty Syrian dictator, Bashar Assad, supposedly in the name of democracy and freedom.

    The problem was that the West allied itself with various tyrannies in the Gulf, and with a local branch of Al Qaeda, to achieve this. What could possibly go wrong? The great piles of corpses, the vast mounds of rubble and the millions of refugees, bear witness to the total failure of that policy, still barely understood by most in this country.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-12790719/PETER-HITCHENS-Lord-Slippery-Tripoli-david-cameron-centrist-lie.html

    Peter Hitchens is not a fan.

    Last week, Mr Slippery, the man who sacrificed the country to save the Tory Party, became Lord Slippery of Chipping Norton.

    'sacrificed the country'? Am I right to read that as a disapprobation of Brexit?
    Hitchens wasn’t a fan of the referendum, he thought we should leave the EU by electing a party with the policy in its manifesto
    He probably has a point there. But the end result is surely the same even if Dave brought it about by imperfect means. Where's the gratitude?
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    TimS said:

    Sean_F said:

    Mr Sunak surely cannot want Mr Cameron's expertise on foreign policy. His major achievement in that field was to destroy Libya, replacing the despot Gaddafi with wild, burning chaos. This one action triggered the giant explosion in human trafficking across the Mediterranean which has utterly transformed Europe and European politics for the worse. He also supported the failed attempt to overthrow the nasty Syrian dictator, Bashar Assad, supposedly in the name of democracy and freedom.

    The problem was that the West allied itself with various tyrannies in the Gulf, and with a local branch of Al Qaeda, to achieve this. What could possibly go wrong? The great piles of corpses, the vast mounds of rubble and the millions of refugees, bear witness to the total failure of that policy, still barely understood by most in this country.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-12790719/PETER-HITCHENS-Lord-Slippery-Tripoli-david-cameron-centrist-lie.html

    Peter Hitchens is not a fan.

    Is he a fan of anything?
    Sahra Wagenknecht, apparently:

    In Germany, the fascinating Sahra Wagenknecht, an Iranian-German former Communist raised and educated in Marxist East Germany, has set herself up as an apostle of an entirely new politics – Left-wing on social policy, but opposed to mass immigration.

    Unlike many of her concrete-headed Left-wing comrades, who have for years told their working-class supporters to like mass migration or lump it, Ms Wagenknecht has grasped these sudden vast increases in population make perfectly reasonable people genuinely unhappy.

    Until now, the uncomfortably Right-wing Alliance For Germany (AFD) party has been picking up their votes. Ms Wagenknecht thinks this should stop and has sensibly argued: 'Germans don't vote for the AFD because they're Right-wing. They vote for them because they're angry.' Imagine a smart and combative female combination of Nigel Farage and Jeremy Corbyn, and you might get close.
    "An entirely new politics - Left-wing on social policy, but opposed to mass immigration".

    Not sure that's entirely new. Isn't it essentially what Pim Fortuyn stodd for in the Netherlands, and to a somewhat lesser extent (he is mixed on social policy) Geert Wilders?
    She is also pretty pro-Russia.

    Which plays better in her stronghold of the east of Germany than old West Germany.
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    David Cameron is trending on X.

    57 varieties of the same joke pointing out the coincidence of Cameron's return and our first case of new swine flu.

    Its amazing how the piece of fake news that motivates that has become fact.
  • Options

    I think the poll bears out my theory that most people don't care who the Foreign Minister is. It's clearly a very important job in terms of practical negotiating behind the scenes, but seen by many as largely irrelevant to everyday life and subservient to the PM in terms of overall policy.

    Concur.

    Who was the last Foreign Secretary that cut much ice with the Great British Public?

    Antony Eden?

    Similar phenomenon in USA.
  • Options
    TimSTimS Posts: 9,554

    David Cameron is trending on X.

    57 varieties of the same joke pointing out the coincidence of Cameron's return and our first case of new swine flu.

    I liked the one after the reshuffle about him and Suella sharing a taste for sticking it to the pigs.
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited November 2023
    As William Hague found out when he sanctioned the SAS missions in Libya, even when you make all the right calls, you get no credit.
  • Options
    TimSTimS Posts: 9,554

    TimS said:

    Sean_F said:

    Mr Sunak surely cannot want Mr Cameron's expertise on foreign policy. His major achievement in that field was to destroy Libya, replacing the despot Gaddafi with wild, burning chaos. This one action triggered the giant explosion in human trafficking across the Mediterranean which has utterly transformed Europe and European politics for the worse. He also supported the failed attempt to overthrow the nasty Syrian dictator, Bashar Assad, supposedly in the name of democracy and freedom.

    The problem was that the West allied itself with various tyrannies in the Gulf, and with a local branch of Al Qaeda, to achieve this. What could possibly go wrong? The great piles of corpses, the vast mounds of rubble and the millions of refugees, bear witness to the total failure of that policy, still barely understood by most in this country.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-12790719/PETER-HITCHENS-Lord-Slippery-Tripoli-david-cameron-centrist-lie.html

    Peter Hitchens is not a fan.

    Is he a fan of anything?
    Sahra Wagenknecht, apparently:

    In Germany, the fascinating Sahra Wagenknecht, an Iranian-German former Communist raised and educated in Marxist East Germany, has set herself up as an apostle of an entirely new politics – Left-wing on social policy, but opposed to mass immigration.

    Unlike many of her concrete-headed Left-wing comrades, who have for years told their working-class supporters to like mass migration or lump it, Ms Wagenknecht has grasped these sudden vast increases in population make perfectly reasonable people genuinely unhappy.

    Until now, the uncomfortably Right-wing Alliance For Germany (AFD) party has been picking up their votes. Ms Wagenknecht thinks this should stop and has sensibly argued: 'Germans don't vote for the AFD because they're Right-wing. They vote for them because they're angry.' Imagine a smart and combative female combination of Nigel Farage and Jeremy Corbyn, and you might get close.
    "An entirely new politics - Left-wing on social policy, but opposed to mass immigration".

    Not sure that's entirely new. Isn't it essentially what Pim Fortuyn stodd for in the Netherlands, and to a somewhat lesser extent (he is mixed on social policy) Geert Wilders?
    She is also pretty pro-Russia.

    Which plays better in her stronghold of the east of Germany than old West Germany.
    Surprise surprise. Expect her to get surprisingly good levels of engagement and retweeting on TwiX then.
  • Options

    I think the poll bears out my theory that most people don't care who the Foreign Minister is. It's clearly a very important job in terms of practical negotiating behind the scenes, but seen by many as largely irrelevant to everyday life and subservient to the PM in terms of overall policy.

    From the recent musings of Braverman and Jenrick I think we can assume every cabinet secretary bar the PM and possibly the Chancellor, have little control over key policy areas supposedly under their control.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 46,994

    Leon said:

    Meanwhile, Ireland’s new Hate Speech laws are quite mind-blowingly Orwellian

    “People don’t realise how extreme Ireland’s hate speech bill is. Up to 12 months in prison for refusing to give password to your devices if suspected of committing hate speech. 12 months for refusing to allow the State read messages between you and your spouse. It’s authoritarian.”

    https://x.com/robertburke84/status/1728725632362651658?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Given the nebulous nature of what is hate speech e.g. saying your gay nan looks like a police officer, that is pandoras box of giving the authorities extremely wide ranging powers.

    Where as the Irish PM has trouble identifying terrorists.
    The Irish legislation won’t even specify what “hate” is. So it’s up to the cops and courts

    WTAF
  • Options
    isamisam Posts: 40,911
    edited November 2023

    isam said:

    Mr Sunak surely cannot want Mr Cameron's expertise on foreign policy. His major achievement in that field was to destroy Libya, replacing the despot Gaddafi with wild, burning chaos. This one action triggered the giant explosion in human trafficking across the Mediterranean which has utterly transformed Europe and European politics for the worse. He also supported the failed attempt to overthrow the nasty Syrian dictator, Bashar Assad, supposedly in the name of democracy and freedom.

    The problem was that the West allied itself with various tyrannies in the Gulf, and with a local branch of Al Qaeda, to achieve this. What could possibly go wrong? The great piles of corpses, the vast mounds of rubble and the millions of refugees, bear witness to the total failure of that policy, still barely understood by most in this country.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-12790719/PETER-HITCHENS-Lord-Slippery-Tripoli-david-cameron-centrist-lie.html

    Peter Hitchens is not a fan.

    Last week, Mr Slippery, the man who sacrificed the country to save the Tory Party, became Lord Slippery of Chipping Norton.

    'sacrificed the country'? Am I right to read that as a disapprobation of Brexit?
    Hitchens wasn’t a fan of the referendum, he thought we should leave the EU by electing a party with the policy in its manifesto
    He probably has a point there. But the end result is surely the same even if Dave brought it about by imperfect means. Where's the gratitude?
    Here he is on QT explaining why he didn’t vote in the referendum

    📸 Watch this video on Facebook https://fb.watch/oAtZ2VS15M/
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,800
    Leon said:

    Meanwhile, Ireland’s new Hate Speech laws are quite mind-blowingly Orwellian

    “People don’t realise how extreme Ireland’s hate speech bill is. Up to 12 months in prison for refusing to give password to your devices if suspected of committing hate speech. 12 months for refusing to allow the State read messages between you and your spouse. It’s authoritarian.”

    https://x.com/robertburke84/status/1728725632362651658?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    People like Ruth Dudley Edwards, and Eoghan Harris have been extremely critical.
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,800
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Meanwhile, Ireland’s new Hate Speech laws are quite mind-blowingly Orwellian

    “People don’t realise how extreme Ireland’s hate speech bill is. Up to 12 months in prison for refusing to give password to your devices if suspected of committing hate speech. 12 months for refusing to allow the State read messages between you and your spouse. It’s authoritarian.”

    https://x.com/robertburke84/status/1728725632362651658?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Given the nebulous nature of what is hate speech e.g. saying your gay nan looks like a police officer, that is pandoras box of giving the authorities extremely wide ranging powers.

    Where as the Irish PM has trouble identifying terrorists.
    The Irish legislation won’t even specify what “hate” is. So it’s up to the cops and courts

    WTAF
    Because we all know the police never abuse their powers in this field.
  • Options
    Leon said:

    Meanwhile, Ireland’s new Hate Speech laws are quite mind-blowingly Orwellian

    “People don’t realise how extreme Ireland’s hate speech bill is. Up to 12 months in prison for refusing to give password to your devices if suspected of committing hate speech. 12 months for refusing to allow the State read messages between you and your spouse. It’s authoritarian.”

    https://x.com/robertburke84/status/1728725632362651658?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Of course not just our phones now, with things like Ring doorbell cameras record sound by default.
  • Options
    Seattle Times ($) - Worker bees swarm Whole Foods and its habitat during SLU’s lunchtime zoo

    By Tantri Wija - Special to The Seattle Times

    IT BEGINS SLIGHTLY before noon. . .

    When Amazon moved into South Lake Union back in 2007, it transformed the neighborhood into a de facto tech hub where, today, roughly 55,000 employees work out of its downtown towers. The area cleared out a bit during the pandemic, but now that Amazon is requiring people in the office three days a week, they’re surging back. . . .

    As the sun peaks invisibly in an overcast Seattle sky, employees from all walks of tech descend from their work in the Cloud to tend to their physical bodies, drifting from aroma to aroma, badges swinging around their necks as they speed-walk to their chosen feeding spot to make the most of their lunch time. The crowd isn’t only tech workers, of course — retail workers dart out of shop doors for a bite; students creep in from Cornish College and Northeastern campuses; and even reporters from the local newspaper wander through, as hungry for sandwiches as they are for leads.

    But the overwhelming vibe is that of an ersatz tech company campus. The epicenter of this feeding frenzy seems to be the giant 2200 sign just outside the South Lake Union Whole Foods, where the easiest meal is found at the grocery chain’s labyrinthine hot bar, offering a pan-global cornucopia of delicacies that allow the hungry to build plates where samosas, Chinese stir fry and falafel all tumble together in international harmony.

    Outside, tech buzzwords and delicious smells waft through the air as the hungry branch out to the neighborhood’s restaurants and visit the even more international rotating plethora of food trucks that descend during peak feeding hours and park nearby at the corner of Thomas Street and Terry Avenue.

    Of course, lunch hour isn’t just about eating — other parts of the body must be tended to, too, so down the block from Whole Foods, a string of businesses will wax the brows, extend the hair and lashes, and manicure the nails of the area’s daytime population.

    The environment directly around the 2200 sign is like a dream of a future “Star Trek” universe Seattle: clean and punctiliously landscaped, the population multiethnic and upscale, like the business end of a Benetton ad, even though one block away, John Street, with its deserted industrial buildings, broken windows and walls plastered with graffiti, is far less so. . . .

    And of course, because Whole Foods is owned by Amazon, this is a bit like the snake eating its own tail, but hey — at least you can pay with your palm now, so maybe the corner of Westlake and Ninth really is Tomorrowland.

    SSI - Sorta like the old-school company store in an old-time coal mine camp . . . IF the coal barons ran an upscale, over-priced foodie boutique to further milk & mulct THEIR worker bees . . .
  • Options
    isam said:

    isam said:

    Mr Sunak surely cannot want Mr Cameron's expertise on foreign policy. His major achievement in that field was to destroy Libya, replacing the despot Gaddafi with wild, burning chaos. This one action triggered the giant explosion in human trafficking across the Mediterranean which has utterly transformed Europe and European politics for the worse. He also supported the failed attempt to overthrow the nasty Syrian dictator, Bashar Assad, supposedly in the name of democracy and freedom.

    The problem was that the West allied itself with various tyrannies in the Gulf, and with a local branch of Al Qaeda, to achieve this. What could possibly go wrong? The great piles of corpses, the vast mounds of rubble and the millions of refugees, bear witness to the total failure of that policy, still barely understood by most in this country.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-12790719/PETER-HITCHENS-Lord-Slippery-Tripoli-david-cameron-centrist-lie.html

    Peter Hitchens is not a fan.

    Last week, Mr Slippery, the man who sacrificed the country to save the Tory Party, became Lord Slippery of Chipping Norton.

    'sacrificed the country'? Am I right to read that as a disapprobation of Brexit?
    Hitchens wasn’t a fan of the referendum, he thought we should leave the EU by electing a party with the policy in its manifesto
    He probably has a point there. But the end result is surely the same even if Dave brought it about by imperfect means. Where's the gratitude?
    Here he is on QT explaining why he didn’t vote in the referendum

    📸 Watch this video on Facebook https://fb.watch/oAtZ2VS15M/
    But when Boris won all those objections would have melted away. In Boris and Dom we had elected Leavers running the show with a clear, concise and transparent plan for our departure. So why does Hitchens still gripe so?
  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,162
    edited November 2023

    I think the poll bears out my theory that most people don't care who the Foreign Minister is. It's clearly a very important job in terms of practical negotiating behind the scenes, but seen by many as largely irrelevant to everyday life and subservient to the PM in terms of overall policy.

    Indeed.

    Dave could bring peace to the Middle East and it won’t change many votes whilst the cost of living crisis continues in the UK.
    A proposition unlikely to be tested (sadly).
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,197
    I think Cameron in Braverman out is a very deliberate and intentional repositioning of the Tories back to the centre ground where Cameron won his victories. It will be unpopular with the Braverman wing of the party who may well head off to Reform. It will please more moderate Tories but it doesn't make Sunak Cameron or this the Coalition Mark II. Sunak still has a lot of baggage and has pushed frankly idiotic policies (such as Rwanda) for too long to just walk away from it now. His short term nonsense on HS2 continues to irritate as well.

    As someone who did not think Braverman fit for any public office, let alone Home Secretary, I of course approve of the change but I don't forget either.
  • Options
    Sean_F said:

    Leon said:

    Meanwhile, Ireland’s new Hate Speech laws are quite mind-blowingly Orwellian

    “People don’t realise how extreme Ireland’s hate speech bill is. Up to 12 months in prison for refusing to give password to your devices if suspected of committing hate speech. 12 months for refusing to allow the State read messages between you and your spouse. It’s authoritarian.”

    https://x.com/robertburke84/status/1728725632362651658?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    People like Ruth Dudley Edwards, and Eoghan Harris have been extremely critical.
    The Irish Establishment has now entered the "You have to destroy democracy / free speech to protect democracy / free speech" mindset. It will only end one way and what makes their attitude even more mind-numbingly dumb is that their Police are unarmed / govern by consent and the Irish Army will in no way intervene.

    The irony of ironies if they end up calling in the UK for help....
  • Options
    SandraMcSandraMc Posts: 596

    I'd assumed that the title Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton was a satirical invention by Private Eye.
    I gather, however, that it's for real.

    Divine intervention.

    Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton it is now. He sounds like he solves mysteries from the pen of Dorothy L Sayers. In fact, he told the House of Lords, it was the vicar’s wife who telephoned to say he absolutely had to take the village name (so I guess we’re lucky the rector of Pratts Bottom didn’t get to him first), revealing all in a debut speech that was elegant and funny.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2023/11/21/lord-david-cameron-offers-brexit-boris-jokes-debut-speech/
    I've just read that; I didn't realise Ken Clarke is in a wheelchair these days. Although the last time I saw him on TV, he did seem to have aged a lot.
  • Options

    I'd assumed that the title Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton was a satirical invention by Private Eye.
    I gather, however, that it's for real.

    Lord Chipping of Slippery Cameron?

    Humbly suggest that ALL peers-in-parliament be required to adopt "Lord Dingleberry" as their title.

    With individual variations of rank and place, for example Baron Dingleberry of Dripping Bottom, etc. etc.
  • Options
    Leon said:

    So it turns out the Algerian child stabber in Dublin was once the subject of a deportation order. Which he fought for five years. No wonder the Gardai wanted to keep it all quiet

    https://x.com/hermannkelly/status/1728915680744157497?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Small price to pay for those with the right mindset to feel good about themselves.

    Funnily enough, it is never their children or their areas that get attacked....
  • Options

    isam said:

    isam said:

    Mr Sunak surely cannot want Mr Cameron's expertise on foreign policy. His major achievement in that field was to destroy Libya, replacing the despot Gaddafi with wild, burning chaos. This one action triggered the giant explosion in human trafficking across the Mediterranean which has utterly transformed Europe and European politics for the worse. He also supported the failed attempt to overthrow the nasty Syrian dictator, Bashar Assad, supposedly in the name of democracy and freedom.

    The problem was that the West allied itself with various tyrannies in the Gulf, and with a local branch of Al Qaeda, to achieve this. What could possibly go wrong? The great piles of corpses, the vast mounds of rubble and the millions of refugees, bear witness to the total failure of that policy, still barely understood by most in this country.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-12790719/PETER-HITCHENS-Lord-Slippery-Tripoli-david-cameron-centrist-lie.html

    Peter Hitchens is not a fan.

    Last week, Mr Slippery, the man who sacrificed the country to save the Tory Party, became Lord Slippery of Chipping Norton.

    'sacrificed the country'? Am I right to read that as a disapprobation of Brexit?
    Hitchens wasn’t a fan of the referendum, he thought we should leave the EU by electing a party with the policy in its manifesto
    He probably has a point there. But the end result is surely the same even if Dave brought it about by imperfect means. Where's the gratitude?
    Here he is on QT explaining why he didn’t vote in the referendum

    📸 Watch this video on Facebook https://fb.watch/oAtZ2VS15M/
    But when Boris won all those objections would have melted away. In Boris and Dom we had elected Leavers running the show with a clear, concise and transparent plan for our departure. So why does Hitchens still gripe so?
    "So why does Hitchens still gripe so?"

    Baby needs a new pair of shoes? & etc., etc., etc.
  • Options
    Dangerous Dogs & XL Bullies debate now live
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fFis4ZFozUM
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,197
    SandraMc said:

    I'd assumed that the title Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton was a satirical invention by Private Eye.
    I gather, however, that it's for real.

    Divine intervention.

    Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton it is now. He sounds like he solves mysteries from the pen of Dorothy L Sayers. In fact, he told the House of Lords, it was the vicar’s wife who telephoned to say he absolutely had to take the village name (so I guess we’re lucky the rector of Pratts Bottom didn’t get to him first), revealing all in a debut speech that was elegant and funny.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2023/11/21/lord-david-cameron-offers-brexit-boris-jokes-debut-speech/
    I've just read that; I didn't realise Ken Clarke is in a wheelchair these days. Although the last time I saw him on TV, he did seem to have aged a lot.
    He just sounds like such a grown up. Hunt is the only one who comes close in this government.
  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,162

    Sean_F said:

    Leon said:

    Meanwhile, Ireland’s new Hate Speech laws are quite mind-blowingly Orwellian

    “People don’t realise how extreme Ireland’s hate speech bill is. Up to 12 months in prison for refusing to give password to your devices if suspected of committing hate speech. 12 months for refusing to allow the State read messages between you and your spouse. It’s authoritarian.”

    https://x.com/robertburke84/status/1728725632362651658?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    People like Ruth Dudley Edwards, and Eoghan Harris have been extremely critical.
    The Irish Establishment has now entered the "You have to destroy democracy / free speech to protect democracy / free speech" mindset. It will only end one way and what makes their attitude even more mind-numbingly dumb is that their Police are unarmed / govern by consent and the Irish Army will in no way intervene.

    The irony of ironies if they end up calling in the UK for help....
    It will only end way? Yes. The bill will pass with some amendments, I imagine. People are so skittish (!) on here sometimes.
  • Options
    kinabalu said:

    Sean_F said:

    Leon said:

    Meanwhile, Ireland’s new Hate Speech laws are quite mind-blowingly Orwellian

    “People don’t realise how extreme Ireland’s hate speech bill is. Up to 12 months in prison for refusing to give password to your devices if suspected of committing hate speech. 12 months for refusing to allow the State read messages between you and your spouse. It’s authoritarian.”

    https://x.com/robertburke84/status/1728725632362651658?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    People like Ruth Dudley Edwards, and Eoghan Harris have been extremely critical.
    The Irish Establishment has now entered the "You have to destroy democracy / free speech to protect democracy / free speech" mindset. It will only end one way and what makes their attitude even more mind-numbingly dumb is that their Police are unarmed / govern by consent and the Irish Army will in no way intervene.

    The irony of ironies if they end up calling in the UK for help....
    It will only end way? Yes. The bill will pass with some amendments, I imagine. People are so skittish (!) on here sometimes.
    Mmmm, it is a bill with which you have sympathy therefore it is "skittish" to get worried about it.
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,800

    isam said:

    isam said:

    Mr Sunak surely cannot want Mr Cameron's expertise on foreign policy. His major achievement in that field was to destroy Libya, replacing the despot Gaddafi with wild, burning chaos. This one action triggered the giant explosion in human trafficking across the Mediterranean which has utterly transformed Europe and European politics for the worse. He also supported the failed attempt to overthrow the nasty Syrian dictator, Bashar Assad, supposedly in the name of democracy and freedom.

    The problem was that the West allied itself with various tyrannies in the Gulf, and with a local branch of Al Qaeda, to achieve this. What could possibly go wrong? The great piles of corpses, the vast mounds of rubble and the millions of refugees, bear witness to the total failure of that policy, still barely understood by most in this country.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-12790719/PETER-HITCHENS-Lord-Slippery-Tripoli-david-cameron-centrist-lie.html

    Peter Hitchens is not a fan.

    Last week, Mr Slippery, the man who sacrificed the country to save the Tory Party, became Lord Slippery of Chipping Norton.

    'sacrificed the country'? Am I right to read that as a disapprobation of Brexit?
    Hitchens wasn’t a fan of the referendum, he thought we should leave the EU by electing a party with the policy in its manifesto
    He probably has a point there. But the end result is surely the same even if Dave brought it about by imperfect means. Where's the gratitude?
    Here he is on QT explaining why he didn’t vote in the referendum

    📸 Watch this video on Facebook https://fb.watch/oAtZ2VS15M/
    But when Boris won all those objections would have melted away. In Boris and Dom we had elected Leavers running the show with a clear, concise and transparent plan for our departure. So why does Hitchens still gripe so?
    Hitchens isn't happy, unless he has something to gripe about.

    Like Sir Richard Acland, he's "humourless, fanatical, self-righteous, and intolerant."
  • Options
    kinabalu said:

    I think the poll bears out my theory that most people don't care who the Foreign Minister is. It's clearly a very important job in terms of practical negotiating behind the scenes, but seen by many as largely irrelevant to everyday life and subservient to the PM in terms of overall policy.

    Indeed.

    Dave could bring peace to the Middle East and it won’t change many votes whilst the cost of living crisis continues in the UK.
    A proposition unlikely to be tested (sadly).
    Don't worry, when Hamas is destroyed, things will be better.

    Hopefully, Hezbollah and the Iranian regime are goners at some point. Then the Middle East really would be more peaceful.
  • Options

    Leon said:

    So it turns out the Algerian child stabber in Dublin was once the subject of a deportation order. Which he fought for five years. No wonder the Gardai wanted to keep it all quiet

    https://x.com/hermannkelly/status/1728915680744157497?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Small price to pay for those with the right mindset to feel good about themselves.

    Funnily enough, it is never their children or their areas that get attacked....
    People who are most opposed to immigration tend to live in areas with the lowest immigration, in this country at least.
  • Options
    isamisam Posts: 40,911

    isam said:

    isam said:

    Mr Sunak surely cannot want Mr Cameron's expertise on foreign policy. His major achievement in that field was to destroy Libya, replacing the despot Gaddafi with wild, burning chaos. This one action triggered the giant explosion in human trafficking across the Mediterranean which has utterly transformed Europe and European politics for the worse. He also supported the failed attempt to overthrow the nasty Syrian dictator, Bashar Assad, supposedly in the name of democracy and freedom.

    The problem was that the West allied itself with various tyrannies in the Gulf, and with a local branch of Al Qaeda, to achieve this. What could possibly go wrong? The great piles of corpses, the vast mounds of rubble and the millions of refugees, bear witness to the total failure of that policy, still barely understood by most in this country.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-12790719/PETER-HITCHENS-Lord-Slippery-Tripoli-david-cameron-centrist-lie.html

    Peter Hitchens is not a fan.

    Last week, Mr Slippery, the man who sacrificed the country to save the Tory Party, became Lord Slippery of Chipping Norton.

    'sacrificed the country'? Am I right to read that as a disapprobation of Brexit?
    Hitchens wasn’t a fan of the referendum, he thought we should leave the EU by electing a party with the policy in its manifesto
    He probably has a point there. But the end result is surely the same even if Dave brought it about by imperfect means. Where's the gratitude?
    Here he is on QT explaining why he didn’t vote in the referendum

    📸 Watch this video on Facebook https://fb.watch/oAtZ2VS15M/
    But when Boris won all those objections would have melted away. In Boris and Dom we had elected Leavers running the show with a clear, concise and transparent plan for our departure. So why does Hitchens still gripe so?
    Well obviously he’s not a fan of Boris (Alex) either! I can’t remember offhand what he said then
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,197

    I think the poll bears out my theory that most people don't care who the Foreign Minister is. It's clearly a very important job in terms of practical negotiating behind the scenes, but seen by many as largely irrelevant to everyday life and subservient to the PM in terms of overall policy.

    Concur.

    Who was the last Foreign Secretary that cut much ice with the Great British Public?

    Antony Eden?

    Similar phenomenon in USA.
    Arguably Peter Carington (weirdly, his title as a Lord Carrington, had the double R) with the Lancaster House agreement for Rhodesia and then the sense of duty to resign over the Falklands, even although he was subsequently cleared of any personal blame. An extremely able man with an admirable sense of duty.
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    Fresh pay offer could end NHS consultant strikes
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-67514362

    There seem to be all sorts of oddities attached like different increases, reduced banding, increase from January but not paid till April (another spring election sign?).
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,636

    kinabalu said:

    I think the poll bears out my theory that most people don't care who the Foreign Minister is. It's clearly a very important job in terms of practical negotiating behind the scenes, but seen by many as largely irrelevant to everyday life and subservient to the PM in terms of overall policy.

    Indeed.

    Dave could bring peace to the Middle East and it won’t change many votes whilst the cost of living crisis continues in the UK.
    A proposition unlikely to be tested (sadly).
    Don't worry, when Hamas is destroyed, things will be better.

    Hopefully, Hezbollah and the Iranian regime are goners at some point. Then the Middle East really would be more peaceful.
    If all those things came to pass I for one would celebrate...

    But cautiously, because I expect the teenagers experiencing Israel's onslaught on Gaza this past month will have inevitably become more radicalised and a new Hamas will emerge.

    Winning the battle ≠ winning hearts and minds.
  • Options
    DavidL said:

    I think Cameron in Braverman out is a very deliberate and intentional repositioning of the Tories back to the centre ground where Cameron won his victories. It will be unpopular with the Braverman wing of the party who may well head off to Reform. It will please more moderate Tories but it doesn't make Sunak Cameron or this the Coalition Mark II. Sunak still has a lot of baggage and has pushed frankly idiotic policies (such as Rwanda) for too long to just walk away from it now. His short term nonsense on HS2 continues to irritate as well.

    As someone who did not think Braverman fit for any public office, let alone Home Secretary, I of course approve of the change but I don't forget either.

    For all her faults and as much as I disagree with Braverman her policy approach on refugees actually has more integrity than Sunaks.

    Braverman: leave the ECHR and change the law to meet policy aims.
    Sunak: ignore the policy aims, instead blame the courts for applying law as is and sow further public division in the vague hope of becoming popular.

  • Options
    GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,001
    isam said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    Mr Sunak surely cannot want Mr Cameron's expertise on foreign policy. His major achievement in that field was to destroy Libya, replacing the despot Gaddafi with wild, burning chaos. This one action triggered the giant explosion in human trafficking across the Mediterranean which has utterly transformed Europe and European politics for the worse. He also supported the failed attempt to overthrow the nasty Syrian dictator, Bashar Assad, supposedly in the name of democracy and freedom.

    The problem was that the West allied itself with various tyrannies in the Gulf, and with a local branch of Al Qaeda, to achieve this. What could possibly go wrong? The great piles of corpses, the vast mounds of rubble and the millions of refugees, bear witness to the total failure of that policy, still barely understood by most in this country.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-12790719/PETER-HITCHENS-Lord-Slippery-Tripoli-david-cameron-centrist-lie.html

    Peter Hitchens is not a fan.

    Last week, Mr Slippery, the man who sacrificed the country to save the Tory Party, became Lord Slippery of Chipping Norton.

    'sacrificed the country'? Am I right to read that as a disapprobation of Brexit?
    Hitchens wasn’t a fan of the referendum, he thought we should leave the EU by electing a party with the policy in its manifesto
    He probably has a point there. But the end result is surely the same even if Dave brought it about by imperfect means. Where's the gratitude?
    Here he is on QT explaining why he didn’t vote in the referendum

    📸 Watch this video on Facebook https://fb.watch/oAtZ2VS15M/
    But when Boris won all those objections would have melted away. In Boris and Dom we had elected Leavers running the show with a clear, concise and transparent plan for our departure. So why does Hitchens still gripe so?
    Well obviously he’s not a fan of Boris (Alex) either! I can’t remember offhand what he said then
    He's a journalist whose career is based on sharing his own opinion on things. He'll be having hot takes on nonsense till he's in a bath chair in Bognor,

    TBH I've grown to ignore the opinion of people whose career is based on having opinions.
  • Options
    GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,001
    SandraMc said:

    I'd assumed that the title Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton was a satirical invention by Private Eye.
    I gather, however, that it's for real.

    Divine intervention.

    Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton it is now. He sounds like he solves mysteries from the pen of Dorothy L Sayers. In fact, he told the House of Lords, it was the vicar’s wife who telephoned to say he absolutely had to take the village name (so I guess we’re lucky the rector of Pratts Bottom didn’t get to him first), revealing all in a debut speech that was elegant and funny.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2023/11/21/lord-david-cameron-offers-brexit-boris-jokes-debut-speech/
    I've just read that; I didn't realise Ken Clarke is in a wheelchair these days. Although the last time I saw him on TV, he did seem to have aged a lot.
    He's 83 tbf.
  • Options
    isamisam Posts: 40,911
    DavidL said:

    I think the poll bears out my theory that most people don't care who the Foreign Minister is. It's clearly a very important job in terms of practical negotiating behind the scenes, but seen by many as largely irrelevant to everyday life and subservient to the PM in terms of overall policy.

    Concur.

    Who was the last Foreign Secretary that cut much ice with the Great British Public?

    Antony Eden?

    Similar phenomenon in USA.
    Arguably Peter Carington (weirdly, his title as a Lord Carrington, had the double R) with the Lancaster House agreement for Rhodesia and then the sense of duty to resign over the Falklands, even although he was subsequently cleared of any personal blame. An extremely able man with an admirable sense of duty.
    Putting Mugabe into bat doesn’t seem that wise in retrospect
  • Options
    Sean_F said:

    Mr Sunak surely cannot want Mr Cameron's expertise on foreign policy. His major achievement in that field was to destroy Libya, replacing the despot Gaddafi with wild, burning chaos. This one action triggered the giant explosion in human trafficking across the Mediterranean which has utterly transformed Europe and European politics for the worse. He also supported the failed attempt to overthrow the nasty Syrian dictator, Bashar Assad, supposedly in the name of democracy and freedom.

    The problem was that the West allied itself with various tyrannies in the Gulf, and with a local branch of Al Qaeda, to achieve this. What could possibly go wrong? The great piles of corpses, the vast mounds of rubble and the millions of refugees, bear witness to the total failure of that policy, still barely understood by most in this country.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-12790719/PETER-HITCHENS-Lord-Slippery-Tripoli-david-cameron-centrist-lie.html

    Peter Hitchens is not a fan.

    Is he a fan of anything?

    The alternative in Libya was simply to permit a bloodbath, which would have resulted in ... a vast wave of refugees.

    The ruin of Syria is entirely upon Assad's shoulders, and those of IS.

    Inevitably, he blames us for provoking Putin. It's all very much "The big boy made me do it."
    Peter Hitchens sees it as his role to oppose everything and everyone.
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,636

    Sean_F said:

    Mr Sunak surely cannot want Mr Cameron's expertise on foreign policy. His major achievement in that field was to destroy Libya, replacing the despot Gaddafi with wild, burning chaos. This one action triggered the giant explosion in human trafficking across the Mediterranean which has utterly transformed Europe and European politics for the worse. He also supported the failed attempt to overthrow the nasty Syrian dictator, Bashar Assad, supposedly in the name of democracy and freedom.

    The problem was that the West allied itself with various tyrannies in the Gulf, and with a local branch of Al Qaeda, to achieve this. What could possibly go wrong? The great piles of corpses, the vast mounds of rubble and the millions of refugees, bear witness to the total failure of that policy, still barely understood by most in this country.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-12790719/PETER-HITCHENS-Lord-Slippery-Tripoli-david-cameron-centrist-lie.html

    Peter Hitchens is not a fan.

    Is he a fan of anything?

    The alternative in Libya was simply to permit a bloodbath, which would have resulted in ... a vast wave of refugees.

    The ruin of Syria is entirely upon Assad's shoulders, and those of IS.

    Inevitably, he blames us for provoking Putin. It's all very much "The big boy made me do it."
    Peter Hitchens sees it as his role to oppose everything and everyone.
    Does he post on PB as Pagan2? Just asking.
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    Sean_F said:

    Leon said:

    Meanwhile, Ireland’s new Hate Speech laws are quite mind-blowingly Orwellian

    “People don’t realise how extreme Ireland’s hate speech bill is. Up to 12 months in prison for refusing to give password to your devices if suspected of committing hate speech. 12 months for refusing to allow the State read messages between you and your spouse. It’s authoritarian.”

    https://x.com/robertburke84/status/1728725632362651658?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    People like Ruth Dudley Edwards, and Eoghan Harris have been extremely critical.
    Ireland seems to be going down a Wokehole as bad as Oregon.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,197
    isam said:

    DavidL said:

    I think the poll bears out my theory that most people don't care who the Foreign Minister is. It's clearly a very important job in terms of practical negotiating behind the scenes, but seen by many as largely irrelevant to everyday life and subservient to the PM in terms of overall policy.

    Concur.

    Who was the last Foreign Secretary that cut much ice with the Great British Public?

    Antony Eden?

    Similar phenomenon in USA.
    Arguably Peter Carington (weirdly, his title as a Lord Carrington, had the double R) with the Lancaster House agreement for Rhodesia and then the sense of duty to resign over the Falklands, even although he was subsequently cleared of any personal blame. An extremely able man with an admirable sense of duty.
    Putting Mugabe into bat doesn’t seem that wise in retrospect
    It was inevitable but he did turn out to be a bit of a WG Grace character, not minded to accept any umpire's decisions, didn't he?
  • Options
    SandraMcSandraMc Posts: 596
    Ghedebrav said:

    SandraMc said:

    I'd assumed that the title Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton was a satirical invention by Private Eye.
    I gather, however, that it's for real.

    Divine intervention.

    Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton it is now. He sounds like he solves mysteries from the pen of Dorothy L Sayers. In fact, he told the House of Lords, it was the vicar’s wife who telephoned to say he absolutely had to take the village name (so I guess we’re lucky the rector of Pratts Bottom didn’t get to him first), revealing all in a debut speech that was elegant and funny.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2023/11/21/lord-david-cameron-offers-brexit-boris-jokes-debut-speech/
    I've just read that; I didn't realise Ken Clarke is in a wheelchair these days. Although the last time I saw him on TV, he did seem to have aged a lot.
    He's 83 tbf.
    The same age as Sir Tom Jones.
  • Options

    Leon said:

    So it turns out the Algerian child stabber in Dublin was once the subject of a deportation order. Which he fought for five years. No wonder the Gardai wanted to keep it all quiet

    https://x.com/hermannkelly/status/1728915680744157497?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Small price to pay for those with the right mindset to feel good about themselves.

    Funnily enough, it is never their children or their areas that get attacked....
    People who are most opposed to immigration tend to live in areas with the lowest immigration, in this country at least.
    Think that's also true in USA today.

    Was also somewhat true in early-20th century America, with difference that, back then, anti-immigrant sentiment and politics also included suburban areas where immigrants of that era had yet to penetrate in large numbers.

    Of course, back then the fault line in USA debate over immigration, was Catholicism, not Islam (or race).

    So much so that in the Pacific Northwest, the Ku Klux Klan, which required members to be natural-born US citizens, enrolled Canadian and Scandinavian Protestants into a special KKK auxiliary.

    On other side of USA, the Acadians/Cajuns of Louisiana were KKK targets (along with Italians in New Orelans) and thus key part of the anti-Klan coalition.

    Whereas by turn of 20th>21st century, many Cajuns were supporters of former KKK Wizard (and Nazi) David Duke when he ran for governor.

    In America, the grandchildren of one pack of immigrants, are frequently prominent in the nativist "UnWelcome Wagon" confronting yet another passel of (for the time being) outlandish outlanders.

  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,636

    I'd assumed that the title Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton was a satirical invention by Private Eye.
    I gather, however, that it's for real.

    Divine intervention.

    Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton it is now. He sounds like he solves mysteries from the pen of Dorothy L Sayers. In fact, he told the House of Lords, it was the vicar’s wife who telephoned to say he absolutely had to take the village name (so I guess we’re lucky the rector of Pratts Bottom didn’t get to him first), revealing all in a debut speech that was elegant and funny.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2023/11/21/lord-david-cameron-offers-brexit-boris-jokes-debut-speech/
    "...the village name..."? When did Chipping Norton, population >6,000, shrink to become a village? It would be a city in the US.
  • Options
    House of Lords = House of Unelected Has-Beens!
  • Options
    MattWMattW Posts: 18,451
    edited November 2023
    The way I think about this is that as a pair we now have Cameron and Cleverly, rather than Cleverly and Braverman.

    Which is something of an upgrade, or reduction in downgrade, depending on your starting point.

    What's the reduction in sound of one knee fewer jerking?
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,197

    DavidL said:

    I think Cameron in Braverman out is a very deliberate and intentional repositioning of the Tories back to the centre ground where Cameron won his victories. It will be unpopular with the Braverman wing of the party who may well head off to Reform. It will please more moderate Tories but it doesn't make Sunak Cameron or this the Coalition Mark II. Sunak still has a lot of baggage and has pushed frankly idiotic policies (such as Rwanda) for too long to just walk away from it now. His short term nonsense on HS2 continues to irritate as well.

    As someone who did not think Braverman fit for any public office, let alone Home Secretary, I of course approve of the change but I don't forget either.

    For all her faults and as much as I disagree with Braverman her policy approach on refugees actually has more integrity than Sunaks.

    Braverman: leave the ECHR and change the law to meet policy aims.
    Sunak: ignore the policy aims, instead blame the courts for applying law as is and sow further public division in the vague hope of becoming popular.

    Braverman purports to be a lawyer and is a former AG. It appears that she told Sunak he was going to win, a fairly remarkable conclusion. And the idea of coming out of the ECHR and replacing it with, what, a British bill of rights, is so fraught with problems that it amounts to another idiocy.
  • Options
    isamisam Posts: 40,911
    I am a fan of Peter Hitchens; 15 years ago I would probably have disagreed with him on everything. In fact 14 years ago I went to see his brother Christopher debate religion alongside Stephen Fry as I was kind of on their side of that debate. I think it might have been Anne Widdecombe they argued with. But now I think he is quite a thoughtful voice of reason on many issues, as well as being an easy punchbag for those who disagree, thanks to his old fashioned ways

    Anyway, I’d say his ‘likes’ include

    Train travel (pre privatisation)
    Cycling (he recently wrote about how great it was to see so many people now cycling in London)
    The Lives of Others & Never Look Back (two films he recommended that I enjoyed)
    The King James Bible
    Travel




  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,162

    kinabalu said:

    Sean_F said:

    Leon said:

    Meanwhile, Ireland’s new Hate Speech laws are quite mind-blowingly Orwellian

    “People don’t realise how extreme Ireland’s hate speech bill is. Up to 12 months in prison for refusing to give password to your devices if suspected of committing hate speech. 12 months for refusing to allow the State read messages between you and your spouse. It’s authoritarian.”

    https://x.com/robertburke84/status/1728725632362651658?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    People like Ruth Dudley Edwards, and Eoghan Harris have been extremely critical.
    The Irish Establishment has now entered the "You have to destroy democracy / free speech to protect democracy / free speech" mindset. It will only end one way and what makes their attitude even more mind-numbingly dumb is that their Police are unarmed / govern by consent and the Irish Army will in no way intervene.

    The irony of ironies if they end up calling in the UK for help....
    It will only end way? Yes. The bill will pass with some amendments, I imagine. People are so skittish (!) on here sometimes.
    Mmmm, it is a bill with which you have sympathy therefore it is "skittish" to get worried about it.
    I meant all this "only end one way" and "destroy free speech and democracy" sort of thing. I get the passion, and that's fine, but if you use up that type of language on something like this you'll have nowhere to go (linguistically) if god forbid we do have to confront a serious threat to freedom and democracy here in the UK or Ireland.
  • Options
    GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,001
    SandraMc said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    SandraMc said:

    I'd assumed that the title Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton was a satirical invention by Private Eye.
    I gather, however, that it's for real.

    Divine intervention.

    Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton it is now. He sounds like he solves mysteries from the pen of Dorothy L Sayers. In fact, he told the House of Lords, it was the vicar’s wife who telephoned to say he absolutely had to take the village name (so I guess we’re lucky the rector of Pratts Bottom didn’t get to him first), revealing all in a debut speech that was elegant and funny.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2023/11/21/lord-david-cameron-offers-brexit-boris-jokes-debut-speech/
    I've just read that; I didn't realise Ken Clarke is in a wheelchair these days. Although the last time I saw him on TV, he did seem to have aged a lot.
    He's 83 tbf.
    The same age as Sir Tom Jones.
    That reminds me - I'm doing a turn as him at the work karaoke. Jones, not Clarke.
  • Options
    Ghedebrav said:

    SandraMc said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    SandraMc said:

    I'd assumed that the title Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton was a satirical invention by Private Eye.
    I gather, however, that it's for real.

    Divine intervention.

    Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton it is now. He sounds like he solves mysteries from the pen of Dorothy L Sayers. In fact, he told the House of Lords, it was the vicar’s wife who telephoned to say he absolutely had to take the village name (so I guess we’re lucky the rector of Pratts Bottom didn’t get to him first), revealing all in a debut speech that was elegant and funny.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2023/11/21/lord-david-cameron-offers-brexit-boris-jokes-debut-speech/
    I've just read that; I didn't realise Ken Clarke is in a wheelchair these days. Although the last time I saw him on TV, he did seem to have aged a lot.
    He's 83 tbf.
    The same age as Sir Tom Jones.
    That reminds me - I'm doing a turn as him at the work karaoke. Jones, not Clarke.
    What's made of brass and sounds like Tom Jones?

    Trombones.
  • Options
    isamisam Posts: 40,911
    DavidL said:

    SandraMc said:

    I'd assumed that the title Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton was a satirical invention by Private Eye.
    I gather, however, that it's for real.

    Divine intervention.

    Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton it is now. He sounds like he solves mysteries from the pen of Dorothy L Sayers. In fact, he told the House of Lords, it was the vicar’s wife who telephoned to say he absolutely had to take the village name (so I guess we’re lucky the rector of Pratts Bottom didn’t get to him first), revealing all in a debut speech that was elegant and funny.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2023/11/21/lord-david-cameron-offers-brexit-boris-jokes-debut-speech/
    I've just read that; I didn't realise Ken Clarke is in a wheelchair these days. Although the last time I saw him on TV, he did seem to have aged a lot.
    He just sounds like such a grown up. Hunt is the only one who comes close in this government.
    Steve Coogan in 1990 doing an impression of Clarke (04:20)

    https://youtu.be/ty1TJBf9Khg?si=Tkir2paXtr4eyCj8
  • Options
    isamisam Posts: 40,911

    Leon said:

    So it turns out the Algerian child stabber in Dublin was once the subject of a deportation order. Which he fought for five years. No wonder the Gardai wanted to keep it all quiet

    https://x.com/hermannkelly/status/1728915680744157497?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Small price to pay for those with the right mindset to feel good about themselves.

    Funnily enough, it is never their children or their areas that get attacked....
    People who are most opposed to immigration tend to live in areas with the lowest immigration, in this country at least.
    Sounds like a wise move for them really
  • Options

    I'd assumed that the title Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton was a satirical invention by Private Eye.
    I gather, however, that it's for real.

    Divine intervention.

    Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton it is now. He sounds like he solves mysteries from the pen of Dorothy L Sayers. In fact, he told the House of Lords, it was the vicar’s wife who telephoned to say he absolutely had to take the village name (so I guess we’re lucky the rector of Pratts Bottom didn’t get to him first), revealing all in a debut speech that was elegant and funny.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2023/11/21/lord-david-cameron-offers-brexit-boris-jokes-debut-speech/
    "...the village name..."? When did Chipping Norton, population >6,000, shrink to become a village? It would be a city in the US.
    Went on the tour of the brewery there a few years ago. Got talking to a young American chap (visiting relatives in Chipping Norton) who happened to mention that he lived next door to the official residence of the US Vice President in Washington DC. I don't know what he did but presumably was rather rich/important.
  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,162
    edited November 2023

    kinabalu said:

    I think the poll bears out my theory that most people don't care who the Foreign Minister is. It's clearly a very important job in terms of practical negotiating behind the scenes, but seen by many as largely irrelevant to everyday life and subservient to the PM in terms of overall policy.

    Indeed.

    Dave could bring peace to the Middle East and it won’t change many votes whilst the cost of living crisis continues in the UK.
    A proposition unlikely to be tested (sadly).
    Don't worry, when Hamas is destroyed, things will be better.

    Hopefully, Hezbollah and the Iranian regime are goners at some point. Then the Middle East really would be more peaceful.
    The havoc wreaked in Gaza will leave the region further than ever from peace and stability. That's my assessment fwiw.
  • Options
    noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 20,706
    edited November 2023
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    I think Cameron in Braverman out is a very deliberate and intentional repositioning of the Tories back to the centre ground where Cameron won his victories. It will be unpopular with the Braverman wing of the party who may well head off to Reform. It will please more moderate Tories but it doesn't make Sunak Cameron or this the Coalition Mark II. Sunak still has a lot of baggage and has pushed frankly idiotic policies (such as Rwanda) for too long to just walk away from it now. His short term nonsense on HS2 continues to irritate as well.

    As someone who did not think Braverman fit for any public office, let alone Home Secretary, I of course approve of the change but I don't forget either.

    For all her faults and as much as I disagree with Braverman her policy approach on refugees actually has more integrity than Sunaks.

    Braverman: leave the ECHR and change the law to meet policy aims.
    Sunak: ignore the policy aims, instead blame the courts for applying law as is and sow further public division in the vague hope of becoming popular.

    Braverman purports to be a lawyer and is a former AG. It appears that she told Sunak he was going to win, a fairly remarkable conclusion. And the idea of coming out of the ECHR and replacing it with, what, a British bill of rights, is so fraught with problems that it amounts to another idiocy.
    That is completely the opposite of what she claims, and afaik No 10 has not rebutted her on this:

    "At every stage of litigation I cautioned you and your team against assuming we would win. I repeatedly urged you to take legislative measures that would better secure us against the possibility of defeat. You ignored these arguments. You opted instead for wishful thinking as a comfort blanket to avoid having to make hard choices. This irresponsibility has wasted time and left the country in an impossible position.

    If we lose in the Supreme Court, an outcome that I have consistently argued we must be prepared for, you will have wasted a year and an Act of Parliament, only to arrive back at square one."
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,960
    Ghedebrav said:

    SandraMc said:

    I'd assumed that the title Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton was a satirical invention by Private Eye.
    I gather, however, that it's for real.

    Divine intervention.

    Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton it is now. He sounds like he solves mysteries from the pen of Dorothy L Sayers. In fact, he told the House of Lords, it was the vicar’s wife who telephoned to say he absolutely had to take the village name (so I guess we’re lucky the rector of Pratts Bottom didn’t get to him first), revealing all in a debut speech that was elegant and funny.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2023/11/21/lord-david-cameron-offers-brexit-boris-jokes-debut-speech/
    I've just read that; I didn't realise Ken Clarke is in a wheelchair these days. Although the last time I saw him on TV, he did seem to have aged a lot.
    He's 83 tbf.
    That's not old!
  • Options
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Sean_F said:

    Leon said:

    Meanwhile, Ireland’s new Hate Speech laws are quite mind-blowingly Orwellian

    “People don’t realise how extreme Ireland’s hate speech bill is. Up to 12 months in prison for refusing to give password to your devices if suspected of committing hate speech. 12 months for refusing to allow the State read messages between you and your spouse. It’s authoritarian.”

    https://x.com/robertburke84/status/1728725632362651658?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    People like Ruth Dudley Edwards, and Eoghan Harris have been extremely critical.
    The Irish Establishment has now entered the "You have to destroy democracy / free speech to protect democracy / free speech" mindset. It will only end one way and what makes their attitude even more mind-numbingly dumb is that their Police are unarmed / govern by consent and the Irish Army will in no way intervene.

    The irony of ironies if they end up calling in the UK for help....
    It will only end way? Yes. The bill will pass with some amendments, I imagine. People are so skittish (!) on here sometimes.
    Mmmm, it is a bill with which you have sympathy therefore it is "skittish" to get worried about it.
    I meant all this "only end one way" and "destroy free speech and democracy" sort of thing. I get the passion, and that's fine, but if you use up that type of language on something like this you'll have nowhere to go (linguistically) if god forbid we do have to confront a serious threat to freedom and democracy here in the UK or Ireland.
    It’s not passion really, it is more rationality. Nations are built on trust, once that breaks down - and that happens particularly when one side feels as though it is being ignored / the rules are rigged against them - they fail.

    So I make the point because you are making the classic mistake of downplaying the implications because you agree with who is bringing it / why it is being brought rather than the principle.
  • Options
    MattWMattW Posts: 18,451

    Ghedebrav said:

    SandraMc said:

    I'd assumed that the title Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton was a satirical invention by Private Eye.
    I gather, however, that it's for real.

    Divine intervention.

    Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton it is now. He sounds like he solves mysteries from the pen of Dorothy L Sayers. In fact, he told the House of Lords, it was the vicar’s wife who telephoned to say he absolutely had to take the village name (so I guess we’re lucky the rector of Pratts Bottom didn’t get to him first), revealing all in a debut speech that was elegant and funny.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2023/11/21/lord-david-cameron-offers-brexit-boris-jokes-debut-speech/
    I've just read that; I didn't realise Ken Clarke is in a wheelchair these days. Although the last time I saw him on TV, he did seem to have aged a lot.
    He's 83 tbf.
    That's not old!
    My former MP Gloria de Piero did a long interview with him a year ago on GB News.

    I can't comment on how good it is, as I've only just started listening.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yIsoDKN81pk
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,197
    isam said:

    DavidL said:

    SandraMc said:

    I'd assumed that the title Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton was a satirical invention by Private Eye.
    I gather, however, that it's for real.

    Divine intervention.

    Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton it is now. He sounds like he solves mysteries from the pen of Dorothy L Sayers. In fact, he told the House of Lords, it was the vicar’s wife who telephoned to say he absolutely had to take the village name (so I guess we’re lucky the rector of Pratts Bottom didn’t get to him first), revealing all in a debut speech that was elegant and funny.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2023/11/21/lord-david-cameron-offers-brexit-boris-jokes-debut-speech/
    I've just read that; I didn't realise Ken Clarke is in a wheelchair these days. Although the last time I saw him on TV, he did seem to have aged a lot.
    He just sounds like such a grown up. Hunt is the only one who comes close in this government.
    Steve Coogan in 1990 doing an impression of Clarke (04:20)

    https://youtu.be/ty1TJBf9Khg?si=Tkir2paXtr4eyCj8
    I was actually talking about Cameron in the House of Lords today but I am a great admirer of Clarke too.
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,960
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    I think the poll bears out my theory that most people don't care who the Foreign Minister is. It's clearly a very important job in terms of practical negotiating behind the scenes, but seen by many as largely irrelevant to everyday life and subservient to the PM in terms of overall policy.

    Indeed.

    Dave could bring peace to the Middle East and it won’t change many votes whilst the cost of living crisis continues in the UK.
    A proposition unlikely to be tested (sadly).
    Don't worry, when Hamas is destroyed, things will be better.

    Hopefully, Hezbollah and the Iranian regime are goners at some point. Then the Middle East really would be more peaceful.
    The havoc wreaked in Gaza will leave the region further than ever from peace and stability. That's my assessment fwiw.
    A lot of Gazan young men will have hatred in their hearts for the people who killed their fathers, uncles and so on. And so will their sons and grandsons.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,197

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    I think Cameron in Braverman out is a very deliberate and intentional repositioning of the Tories back to the centre ground where Cameron won his victories. It will be unpopular with the Braverman wing of the party who may well head off to Reform. It will please more moderate Tories but it doesn't make Sunak Cameron or this the Coalition Mark II. Sunak still has a lot of baggage and has pushed frankly idiotic policies (such as Rwanda) for too long to just walk away from it now. His short term nonsense on HS2 continues to irritate as well.

    As someone who did not think Braverman fit for any public office, let alone Home Secretary, I of course approve of the change but I don't forget either.

    For all her faults and as much as I disagree with Braverman her policy approach on refugees actually has more integrity than Sunaks.

    Braverman: leave the ECHR and change the law to meet policy aims.
    Sunak: ignore the policy aims, instead blame the courts for applying law as is and sow further public division in the vague hope of becoming popular.

    Braverman purports to be a lawyer and is a former AG. It appears that she told Sunak he was going to win, a fairly remarkable conclusion. And the idea of coming out of the ECHR and replacing it with, what, a British bill of rights, is so fraught with problems that it amounts to another idiocy.
    That is completely the opposite of what she claims, and afaik No 10 has not rebutted her on this:

    "At every stage of litigation I cautioned you and your team against assuming we would win. I repeatedly urged you to take legislative measures that would better secure us against the possibility of defeat. You ignored these arguments. You opted instead for wishful thinking as a comfort blanket to avoid having to make hard choices. This irresponsibility has wasted time and left the country in an impossible position.

    If we lose in the Supreme Court, an outcome that I have consistently argued we must be prepared for, you will have wasted a year and an Act of Parliament, only to arrive back at square one."
    Ok, I hadn't seen that. Thanks.
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    Leon said:

    So it turns out the Algerian child stabber in Dublin was once the subject of a deportation order. Which he fought for five years. No wonder the Gardai wanted to keep it all quiet

    https://x.com/hermannkelly/status/1728915680744157497?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Small price to pay for those with the right mindset to feel good about themselves.

    Funnily enough, it is never their children or their areas that get attacked....
    People who are most opposed to immigration tend to live in areas with the lowest immigration, in this country at least.
    Think that's also true in USA today.

    Was also somewhat true in early-20th century America, with difference that, back then, anti-immigrant sentiment and politics also included suburban areas where immigrants of that era had yet to penetrate in large numbers.

    Of course, back then the fault line in USA debate over immigration, was Catholicism, not Islam (or race).

    So much so that in the Pacific Northwest, the Ku Klux Klan, which required members to be natural-born US citizens, enrolled Canadian and Scandinavian Protestants into a special KKK auxiliary.

    On other side of USA, the Acadians/Cajuns of Louisiana were KKK targets (along with Italians in New Orelans) and thus key part of the anti-Klan coalition.

    Whereas by turn of 20th>21st century, many Cajuns were supporters of former KKK Wizard (and Nazi) David Duke when he ran for governor.

    In America, the grandchildren of one pack of immigrants, are frequently prominent in the nativist "UnWelcome Wagon" confronting yet another passel of (for the time being) outlandish outlanders.

    Isn’t that to do though with pure maths / truisms?

    If you have a population area that is 50% immigrants, then you are unlikely to find much support for stopping immigration amongst that segment. In effect, your addressable market is only the remaining 50%.
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    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,162
    Ghedebrav said:

    SandraMc said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    SandraMc said:

    I'd assumed that the title Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton was a satirical invention by Private Eye.
    I gather, however, that it's for real.

    Divine intervention.

    Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton it is now. He sounds like he solves mysteries from the pen of Dorothy L Sayers. In fact, he told the House of Lords, it was the vicar’s wife who telephoned to say he absolutely had to take the village name (so I guess we’re lucky the rector of Pratts Bottom didn’t get to him first), revealing all in a debut speech that was elegant and funny.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2023/11/21/lord-david-cameron-offers-brexit-boris-jokes-debut-speech/
    I've just read that; I didn't realise Ken Clarke is in a wheelchair these days. Although the last time I saw him on TV, he did seem to have aged a lot.
    He's 83 tbf.
    The same age as Sir Tom Jones.
    That reminds me - I'm doing a turn as him at the work karaoke. Jones, not Clarke.
    Is that normal for you, doing karaoke?

    Cmon hit that dolly for six!
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,938
    isam said:

    Leon said:

    So it turns out the Algerian child stabber in Dublin was once the subject of a deportation order. Which he fought for five years. No wonder the Gardai wanted to keep it all quiet

    https://x.com/hermannkelly/status/1728915680744157497?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Small price to pay for those with the right mindset to feel good about themselves.

    Funnily enough, it is never their children or their areas that get attacked....
    People who are most opposed to immigration tend to live in areas with the lowest immigration, in this country at least.
    Sounds like a wise move for them really
    Did they actually move?
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    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    I think the poll bears out my theory that most people don't care who the Foreign Minister is. It's clearly a very important job in terms of practical negotiating behind the scenes, but seen by many as largely irrelevant to everyday life and subservient to the PM in terms of overall policy.

    Indeed.

    Dave could bring peace to the Middle East and it won’t change many votes whilst the cost of living crisis continues in the UK.
    A proposition unlikely to be tested (sadly).
    Don't worry, when Hamas is destroyed, things will be better.

    Hopefully, Hezbollah and the Iranian regime are goners at some point. Then the Middle East really would be more peaceful.
    The havoc wreaked in Gaza will leave the region further than ever from peace and stability. That's my assessment fwiw.
    A lot of Gazan young men will have hatred in their hearts for the people who killed their fathers, uncles and so on. And so will their sons and grandsons.
    Because they never had hatred before.
This discussion has been closed.