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Date of the general election – latest betting – politicalbetting.com

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Comments

  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,241
    Roger said:

    Foxy said:

    nico679 said:

    DavidL said:

    Netanyahu says war will continue after hostages released

    Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has said that Israel will continue its war against Hamas "until we achieve all our goals".

    In a video statement recorded before the cabinet met to discuss a possible hostage deal, he said "nonsense" was being spoken to the effect that the war would be stopped once the hostages were released.

    Netanyahu described the hostages' return as a "sacred and top goal".

    "In war there are phases and in returning the hostages there are phases but we will not stop until we have total victory, until we return all of them," he said. "That’s the holy duty of all of us."

    The elimination of Hamas was also a goal, he said, "and that there won't be anything in Gaza that threatens Israel again".

    Test:


    Well let’s assume for a moment that you can believe a single word Hamas says. What is it going to take to stop them from going on a murderous rampage again? That is the question.
    I think this was a one off and I don’t think the IDF will be quite so unprepared again . As for the casualties their figure is generally regarded as close to reality . Looking at the devastation it’s hard to think it’s that far off . Absolutely tragic news again that doctors are being killed, those who stayed behind to treat the injured are heroes . Too many innocent people have died .
    Hard to disagree with you last sentiments.

    Hamas are the cause of all this.
    The trigger maybe, but don't deny the IDF agency.
    I don’t, but you have to ask what else can they do? I do not believe IDF is deliberately killing Gazans. In contrast to terrorists who murdered for fun then took battered bodies back as trophies.
    If you are correct I think they've now had
    their pound of flesh and it's time to move on.
    Killing Gazans by the lorry load because
    they can will achieve nothing except pile
    odium on them throughout the world.
    So you didn’t look at the photos of the command centre they broke into today?


  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,653
    Endillion said:

    Roger said:

    Netanyahu says war will continue after hostages released

    Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has said that Israel will continue its war against Hamas "until we achieve all our goals".

    In a video statement recorded before the cabinet met to discuss a possible hostage deal, he said "nonsense" was being spoken to the effect that the war would be stopped once the hostages were released.

    Netanyahu described the hostages' return as a "sacred and top goal".

    "In war there are phases and in returning the hostages there are phases but we will not stop until we have total victory, until we return all of them," he said. "That’s the holy duty of all of us."

    The elimination of Hamas was also a goal, he said, "and that there won't be anything in Gaza that threatens Israel again".

    Test:




    You continue to equate the murder of innocent men, women and children with unfortunate innocent casualties of war.

    You are despicable

    Excel's telling me that 91% of the victims of this war are Gazans.
    It is not a war it is a slaughter.
    Typically, under such circumstances, the side that's losing surrenders. You don't seem very keen on that, for some reason.
    Far too simplistic for this confilct.

    Hamas is losing but Gaza is suffering. Hamas ≠ Gaza and the ordinary Gazans who are being killed in such numbers have no ability to 'surrender'
  • Netanyahu says war will continue after hostages released

    Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has said that Israel will continue its war against Hamas "until we achieve all our goals".

    In a video statement recorded before the cabinet met to discuss a possible hostage deal, he said "nonsense" was being spoken to the effect that the war would be stopped once the hostages were released.

    Netanyahu described the hostages' return as a "sacred and top goal".

    "In war there are phases and in returning the hostages there are phases but we will not stop until we have total victory, until we return all of them," he said. "That’s the holy duty of all of us."

    The elimination of Hamas was also a goal, he said, "and that there won't be anything in Gaza that threatens Israel again".

    Test:




    You continue to equate the murder of innocent men, women and children with unfortunate innocent casualties of war.

    You are despicable


    Excel's telling me that 91% of the victims of this war are Gazans.
    Which is the same point you have repeated day after day.

    Motive matters.
    Well, those are the ratios, roughly 10:1.
    How many of each group were carrying guns?
  • Roger said:

    Foxy said:

    nico679 said:

    DavidL said:

    Netanyahu says war will continue after hostages released

    Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has said that Israel will continue its war against Hamas "until we achieve all our goals".

    In a video statement recorded before the cabinet met to discuss a possible hostage deal, he said "nonsense" was being spoken to the effect that the war would be stopped once the hostages were released.

    Netanyahu described the hostages' return as a "sacred and top goal".

    "In war there are phases and in returning the hostages there are phases but we will not stop until we have total victory, until we return all of them," he said. "That’s the holy duty of all of us."

    The elimination of Hamas was also a goal, he said, "and that there won't be anything in Gaza that threatens Israel again".

    Test:


    Well let’s assume for a moment that you can believe a single word Hamas says. What is it going to take to stop them from going on a murderous rampage again? That is the question.
    I think this was a one off and I don’t think the IDF will be quite so unprepared again . As for the casualties their figure is generally regarded as close to reality . Looking at the devastation it’s hard to think it’s that far off . Absolutely tragic news again that doctors are being killed, those who stayed behind to treat the injured are heroes . Too many innocent people have died .
    Hard to disagree with you last sentiments.

    Hamas are the cause of all this.
    The trigger maybe, but don't deny the IDF agency.
    I don’t, but you have to ask what else can they do? I do not believe IDF is deliberately killing Gazans. In contrast to terrorists who murdered for fun then took battered bodies back as trophies.
    If you are correct I think they've now had
    their pound of flesh and it's time to move on.
    Killing Gazans by the lorry load because
    they can will achieve nothing except pile
    odium on them throughout the world.
    So you didn’t look at the photos of the command centre they broke into today?


    Verified independently?
  • Roger said:

    Foxy said:

    nico679 said:

    DavidL said:

    Netanyahu says war will continue after hostages released

    Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has said that Israel will continue its war against Hamas "until we achieve all our goals".

    In a video statement recorded before the cabinet met to discuss a possible hostage deal, he said "nonsense" was being spoken to the effect that the war would be stopped once the hostages were released.

    Netanyahu described the hostages' return as a "sacred and top goal".

    "In war there are phases and in returning the hostages there are phases but we will not stop until we have total victory, until we return all of them," he said. "That’s the holy duty of all of us."

    The elimination of Hamas was also a goal, he said, "and that there won't be anything in Gaza that threatens Israel again".

    Test:


    Well let’s assume for a moment that you can believe a single word Hamas says. What is it going to take to stop them from going on a murderous rampage again? That is the question.
    I think this was a one off and I don’t think the IDF will be quite so unprepared again . As for the casualties their figure is generally regarded as close to reality . Looking at the devastation it’s hard to think it’s that far off . Absolutely tragic news again that doctors are being killed, those who stayed behind to treat the injured are heroes . Too many innocent people have died .
    Hard to disagree with you last sentiments.

    Hamas are the cause of all this.
    The trigger maybe, but don't deny the IDF agency.
    I don’t, but you have to ask what else can they do? I do not believe IDF is deliberately killing Gazans. In contrast to terrorists who murdered for fun then took battered bodies back as trophies.
    If you are correct I think they've now had
    their pound of flesh and it's time to move on.
    Killing Gazans by the lorry load because
    they can will achieve nothing except pile
    odium on them throughout the world.
    So you didn’t look at the photos of the command centre they broke into today?


    Verified independently?
    Like your numbers?
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368
    Endillion said:

    Roger said:

    Netanyahu says war will continue after hostages released

    Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has said that Israel will continue its war against Hamas "until we achieve all our goals".

    In a video statement recorded before the cabinet met to discuss a possible hostage deal, he said "nonsense" was being spoken to the effect that the war would be stopped once the hostages were released.

    Netanyahu described the hostages' return as a "sacred and top goal".

    "In war there are phases and in returning the hostages there are phases but we will not stop until we have total victory, until we return all of them," he said. "That’s the holy duty of all of us."

    The elimination of Hamas was also a goal, he said, "and that there won't be anything in Gaza that threatens Israel again".

    Test:




    You continue to equate the murder of innocent men, women and children with unfortunate innocent casualties of war.

    You are despicable

    Excel's telling me that 91% of the victims of this war are Gazans.
    It is not a war it is a slaughter.
    Typically, under such circumstances, the side that's losing surrenders. You don't seem very keen on that, for some reason.
    Hamas are a death cult, they don't give a f*** either way. Not for. Israelis, not for Gazans.

    I don't know who wrote that post for you, but tell them from me, they are not the sharpest tool in the box.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,347
    edited November 2023

    Pulpstar said:

    Net migration going to come in around 700,000 people apparently. Now I know we do need immigration as a TFR < 2.2 & aging society but it seems a huge number.

    Migration is the only thing delivering anaemic growth.
    Without it, the UK would be in recession already.
    If immigration is delivering growth - but GDP *per head* isn't rising... Then you'd have a situation where people think the economy is in recession, personally, but the headline would say....

    Yes.
    Weirdly, overall population is only rising by about 200,000 a year. We know that deaths don't exceed births, so the only other explanation is that emigration is heavily undercounted.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,906

    Roger said:

    Foxy said:

    nico679 said:

    DavidL said:

    Netanyahu says war will continue after hostages released

    Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has said that Israel will continue its war against Hamas "until we achieve all our goals".

    In a video statement recorded before the cabinet met to discuss a possible hostage deal, he said "nonsense" was being spoken to the effect that the war would be stopped once the hostages were released.

    Netanyahu described the hostages' return as a "sacred and top goal".

    "In war there are phases and in returning the hostages there are phases but we will not stop until we have total victory, until we return all of them," he said. "That’s the holy duty of all of us."

    The elimination of Hamas was also a goal, he said, "and that there won't be anything in Gaza that threatens Israel again".

    Test:


    Well let’s assume for a moment that you can believe a single word Hamas says. What is it going to take to stop them from going on a murderous rampage again? That is the question.
    I think this was a one off and I don’t think the IDF will be quite so unprepared again . As for the casualties their figure is generally regarded as close to reality . Looking at the devastation it’s hard to think it’s that far off . Absolutely tragic news again that doctors are being killed, those who stayed behind to treat the injured are heroes . Too many innocent people have died .
    Hard to disagree with you last sentiments.

    Hamas are the cause of all this.
    The trigger maybe, but don't deny the IDF agency.
    I don’t, but you have to ask what else can they do? I do not believe IDF is deliberately killing Gazans. In contrast to terrorists who murdered for fun then took battered bodies back as trophies.
    If you are correct I think they've now had
    their pound of flesh and it's time to move on.
    Killing Gazans by the lorry load because
    they can will achieve nothing except pile
    odium on them throughout the world.
    So you didn’t look at the photos of the command centre they broke into today?


    No I didn't. Could you post a link
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,485
    Pro_Rata said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    2025 is not an option???

    Unless you want a GE campaign over Xmas and NY?
    It's not my choice.
    Would be utter insanity. Won’t happen.
    Pulpstar said:

    Foxy said:

    Labour leads by 24% in the Red Wall, their largest lead in these seats since August.

    Red Wall VI (19 Nov):

    Labour 50% (+2)
    Conservative 26% (-6)
    Reform UK 11% (+5)
    Green 6% (+2)
    Liberal Democrat 5% (-2)
    Other 2% (-1)

    Changes +/- 22 Oct

    redfieldandwiltonstrategies.com/latest-red-wal…

    https://twitter.com/RedfieldWilton/status/1727008980226969913?t=S1xTZHBhxrqAYDbMc75NIw&s=19

    Doesn't look like the Red Wall liked the reshuffle.

    Oh, Red Wall! For a split second, I thought it was a "proper" poll! Still, 50% Labour, eh?
    The Red Wall seats voted Con 47, Lab 38, Rfm/Brexit 7, LD 4 according to the RW graphic compared to Con 44.7, :Lab 33.0, Rfm/Brexit 2.1%, LD 11.8% for GB as a whole.

    So it equates roughly to a Lab 45, Con 24 full poll.
    And to think that Sundance The Comeback
    Kid got Goodwinned good and proper by a whopping 27pts only last week. Now down to a mere notional 21pts only a few days later. THE BIG MO 👏
  • Hamas mouthpiece Sunil admits to having an Excel of his terrorist tallies

    That is PB nerd news

    I have Excels of lots of different stuff!
  • MJWMJW Posts: 1,728
    Roger said:

    Foxy said:

    nico679 said:

    DavidL said:

    Netanyahu says war will continue after hostages released

    Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has said that Israel will continue its war against Hamas "until we achieve all our goals".

    In a video statement recorded before the cabinet met to discuss a possible hostage deal, he said "nonsense" was being spoken to the effect that the war would be stopped once the hostages were released.

    Netanyahu described the hostages' return as a "sacred and top goal".

    "In war there are phases and in returning the hostages there are phases but we will not stop until we have total victory, until we return all of them," he said. "That’s the holy duty of all of us."

    The elimination of Hamas was also a goal, he said, "and that there won't be anything in Gaza that threatens Israel again".

    Test:


    Well let’s assume for a moment that you can believe a single word Hamas says. What is it going to take to stop them from going on a murderous rampage again? That is the question.
    I think this was a one off and I don’t think the IDF will be quite so unprepared again . As for the casualties their figure is generally regarded as close to reality . Looking at the devastation it’s hard to think it’s that far off . Absolutely tragic news again that doctors are being killed, those who stayed behind to treat the injured are heroes . Too many innocent people have died .
    Hard to disagree with you last sentiments.

    Hamas are the cause of all this.
    The trigger maybe, but don't deny the IDF agency.
    I don’t, but you have to ask what else can they do? I do not believe IDF is deliberately killing Gazans. In contrast to terrorists who murdered for fun then took battered bodies back as trophies.
    If you are correct I think they've now had their pound of flesh and it's time to move on. Killing Gazans by the lorry load because they can will achieve nothing except pile odium on them throughout the world.
    A very unfortunate but telling phrase to use there.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,347

    Roger said:

    Netanyahu says war will continue after hostages released

    Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has said that Israel will continue its war against Hamas "until we achieve all our goals".

    In a video statement recorded before the cabinet met to discuss a possible hostage deal, he said "nonsense" was being spoken to the effect that the war would be stopped once the hostages were released.

    Netanyahu described the hostages' return as a "sacred and top goal".

    "In war there are phases and in returning the hostages there are phases but we will not stop until we have total victory, until we return all of them," he said. "That’s the holy duty of all of us."

    The elimination of Hamas was also a goal, he said, "and that there won't be anything in Gaza that threatens Israel again".

    Test:




    You continue to equate the murder of innocent men, women and children with unfortunate innocent casualties of war.

    You are despicable

    I'm not sure those killed or their relatives would recognise your subtle distinction
    Other people's lives seems cheap to a certain type of right wing ideologue, hence Johnson's "let the bodies pile high" and Sunak's similar statement quoted by Vallance yesterday.

    Likewise some of the generally rightward leaning armchair Generals on here, suggesting that collateral casualties (irrespective of number) are an acceptable feature of conflict, and justifying it by a "well their boys did it to our team on October 7th". It is the heartless language of Hamas. Aren't we, purporting to be from a civilized nation, better than that? I don't know, pick a side.
    I think that, in general, politicians do develop such indifference, and I think it's a part of the territory. People die, directly or indirectly, due to all manner of policy changes.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,485
    Some people on here have a bizarrely weird obsession with Gary Lineker.
  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,976

    Endillion said:

    Roger said:

    Netanyahu says war will continue after hostages released

    Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has said that Israel will continue its war against Hamas "until we achieve all our goals".

    In a video statement recorded before the cabinet met to discuss a possible hostage deal, he said "nonsense" was being spoken to the effect that the war would be stopped once the hostages were released.

    Netanyahu described the hostages' return as a "sacred and top goal".

    "In war there are phases and in returning the hostages there are phases but we will not stop until we have total victory, until we return all of them," he said. "That’s the holy duty of all of us."

    The elimination of Hamas was also a goal, he said, "and that there won't be anything in Gaza that threatens Israel again".

    Test:




    You continue to equate the murder of innocent men, women and children with unfortunate innocent casualties of war.

    You are despicable

    Excel's telling me that 91% of the victims of this war are Gazans.
    It is not a war it is a slaughter.
    Typically, under such circumstances, the side that's losing surrenders. You don't seem very keen on that, for some reason.
    Far too simplistic for this confilct.

    Hamas is losing but Gaza is suffering. Hamas ≠ Gaza and the ordinary Gazans who are being killed in such numbers have no ability to 'surrender'
    It's just as easy for a semi-anonymous poster on an internet forum to call for a surrender as it is for a ceasefire.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368
    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    Foxy said:

    nico679 said:

    DavidL said:

    Netanyahu says war will continue after hostages released

    Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has said that Israel will continue its war against Hamas "until we achieve all our goals".

    In a video statement recorded before the cabinet met to discuss a possible hostage deal, he said "nonsense" was being spoken to the effect that the war would be stopped once the hostages were released.

    Netanyahu described the hostages' return as a "sacred and top goal".

    "In war there are phases and in returning the hostages there are phases but we will not stop until we have total victory, until we return all of them," he said. "That’s the holy duty of all of us."

    The elimination of Hamas was also a goal, he said, "and that there won't be anything in Gaza that threatens Israel again".

    Test:


    Well let’s assume for a moment that you can believe a single word Hamas says. What is it going to take to stop them from going on a murderous rampage again? That is the question.
    I think this was a one off and I don’t think the IDF will be quite so unprepared again . As for the casualties their figure is generally regarded as close to reality . Looking at the devastation it’s hard to think it’s that far off . Absolutely tragic news again that doctors are being killed, those who stayed behind to treat the injured are heroes . Too many innocent people have died .
    Hard to disagree with you last sentiments.

    Hamas are the cause of all this.
    The trigger maybe, but don't deny the IDF agency.
    I don’t, but you have to ask what else can they do? I do not believe IDF is deliberately killing Gazans. In contrast to terrorists who murdered for fun then took battered bodies back as trophies.
    If you are correct I think they've now had
    their pound of flesh and it's time to move on.
    Killing Gazans by the lorry load because
    they can will achieve nothing except pile
    odium on them throughout the world.
    So you didn’t look at the photos of the command centre they broke into today?


    No I didn't. Could you post a link
    Until the claims are unequivocally verified, colour me skeptical. Hamas may well have a network of tunnels under hospitals, but when the bearer of these tidings is Team Netanyahu, I remain unconvinced without third party confirmation.

    I listen most days to BBC WATO whilst having lunch in my car, and everyday Mark Regev gives an informed account of developments. Forgive me, but I wouldn't believe him if he told me "good morning".
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,653
    edited November 2023

    Some people on here have a bizarrely weird obsession with Gary Lineker.

    They think they're on political-bête-noir.com
  • Hamas mouthpiece Sunil admits to having an Excel of his terrorist tallies

    That is PB nerd news

    I have Excels of lots of different stuff!
    Eg.



  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,241

    Roger said:

    Foxy said:

    nico679 said:

    DavidL said:

    Netanyahu says war will continue after hostages released

    Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has said that Israel will continue its war against Hamas "until we achieve all our goals".

    In a video statement recorded before the cabinet met to discuss a possible hostage deal, he said "nonsense" was being spoken to the effect that the war would be stopped once the hostages were released.

    Netanyahu described the hostages' return as a "sacred and top goal".

    "In war there are phases and in returning the hostages there are phases but we will not stop until we have total victory, until we return all of them," he said. "That’s the holy duty of all of us."

    The elimination of Hamas was also a goal, he said, "and that there won't be anything in Gaza that threatens Israel again".

    Test:


    Well let’s assume for a moment that you can believe a single word Hamas says. What is it going to take to stop them from going on a murderous rampage again? That is the question.
    I think this was a one off and I don’t think the IDF will be quite so unprepared again . As for the casualties their figure is generally regarded as close to reality . Looking at the devastation it’s hard to think it’s that far off . Absolutely tragic news again that doctors are being killed, those who stayed behind to treat the injured are heroes . Too many innocent people have died .
    Hard to disagree with you last sentiments.

    Hamas are the cause of all this.
    The trigger maybe, but don't deny the IDF agency.
    I don’t, but you have to ask what else can they do? I do not believe IDF is deliberately killing Gazans. In contrast to terrorists who murdered for fun then took battered bodies back as trophies.
    If you are correct I think they've now had
    their pound of flesh and it's time to move on.
    Killing Gazans by the lorry load because
    they can will achieve nothing except pile
    odium on them throughout the world.
    So you didn’t look at the photos of the
    command centre they broke into today?


    Verified independently?
    CNN

    https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2023/11/20/middleeast/gaza-tunnel-shaft-al-shifa-hospital-intl-hnk/index.html

    “We need to demolish the underground facility that we found,” said IDF spokesperson Rear Admiral Daniel Hagari. “I think the leadership of Hamas is in great pressure because we found this facility, and we are now going to demolish it. It’s going to take us time. We’re going to do it safely, but we’re going to do it.”

    It is arguably the most compelling evidence thus far that the IDF has offered that there may be a network of tunnels below the hospital. It does not establish without a doubt that there is a command center under Gaza’s largest hospital, but it is clear that there is a tunnel down below. Seeing what connects to that tunnel is absolutely critical.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,405

    Roger said:

    Netanyahu says war will continue after hostages released

    Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has said that Israel will continue its war against Hamas "until we achieve all our goals".

    In a video statement recorded before the cabinet met to discuss a possible hostage deal, he said "nonsense" was being spoken to the effect that the war would be stopped once the hostages were released.

    Netanyahu described the hostages' return as a "sacred and top goal".

    "In war there are phases and in returning the hostages there are phases but we will not stop until we have total victory, until we return all of them," he said. "That’s the holy duty of all of us."

    The elimination of Hamas was also a goal, he said, "and that there won't be anything in Gaza that threatens Israel again".

    Test:




    You continue to equate the murder of innocent men, women and children with unfortunate innocent casualties of war.

    You are despicable

    I'm not sure those killed or their relatives would recognise your subtle distinction
    Other people's lives seems cheap to a certain type of right wing ideologue, hence Johnson's "let the bodies pile high" and Sunak's similar statement quoted by Vallance yesterday.

    Likewise some of the generally rightward leaning armchair Generals on here, suggesting that collateral casualties (irrespective of number) are an acceptable feature of conflict, and justifying it by a "well their boys did it to our team on October 7th". It is the heartless language of Hamas. Aren't we, purporting to be from a civilized nation, better than that? I don't know, pick a side.
    The PB Toy Soldiers are the worst thing about this site. They have shifted their toy soldiering from Ukraine to Israel, but the Armchair Generals, as you put it, are largely the same people.
    You may be including me in the armchair general scorn. I don’t think I am. I’d like nothing more for not one more person to die in Gaza. I just think that the easiest way that happens is Hamas releasing ALL the hostages and surrendering. Terrorism ought not prosper.
    Israel is not innocent. The West Bank is a huge issue. But ultimately Israel is surrounded by people who want to wipe it from the face of the earth, and that makes them rather more liable to extreme measures. We would too if France and Ireland wanted to eradicate the U.K. from the face of the Earth, and in living memory had waged war to try to achieve that aim.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,906

    Roger said:

    Netanyahu says war will continue after hostages released

    Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has said that Israel will continue its war against Hamas "until we achieve all our goals".

    In a video statement recorded before the cabinet met to discuss a possible hostage deal, he said "nonsense" was being spoken to the effect that the war would be stopped once the hostages were released.

    Netanyahu described the hostages' return as a "sacred and top goal".

    "In war there are phases and in returning the hostages there are phases but we will not stop until we have total victory, until we return all of them," he said. "That’s the holy duty of all of us."

    The elimination of Hamas was also a goal, he said, "and that there won't be anything in Gaza that threatens Israel again".

    Test:




    You continue to equate the murder of innocent men, women and children with unfortunate innocent casualties of war.

    You are despicable

    I'm not sure those killed or their relatives would recognise your subtle distinction
    Other people's lives seems cheap to a certain type of right wing ideologue, hence Johnson's "let the bodies pile high" and Sunak's similar statement quoted by Vallance yesterday.

    Likewise some of the generally rightward leaning armchair Generals on here, suggesting that collateral casualties (irrespective of number) are an acceptable feature of conflict, and justifying it by a "well their boys did it to our team on October 7th". It is the heartless language of Hamas. Aren't we, purporting to be from a civilized nation, better than that? I don't know, pick a side.
    The PB Toy Soldiers are the worst thing about this site. They have shifted their toy soldiering from Ukraine to Israel, but the Armchair Generals, as you put it, are largely the same people.
    I agree. totally disgusting. After a couple of posts the other day i couldn't visit this site again. Some of the posters here make me feel physically sick.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,241
    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    Foxy said:

    nico679 said:

    DavidL said:

    Netanyahu says war will continue after hostages released

    Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has said that Israel will continue its war against Hamas "until we achieve all our goals".

    In a video statement recorded before the cabinet met to discuss a possible hostage deal, he said "nonsense" was being spoken to the effect that the war would be stopped once the hostages were released.

    Netanyahu described the hostages' return as a "sacred and top goal".

    "In war there are phases and in returning the hostages there are phases but we will not stop until we have total victory, until we return all of them," he said. "That’s the holy duty of all of us."

    The elimination of Hamas was also a goal, he said, "and that there won't be anything in Gaza that threatens Israel again".

    Test:


    Well let’s assume for a moment that you can believe a single word Hamas says. What is it going to take to stop them from going on a murderous rampage again? That is the question.
    I think this was a one off and I don’t think the IDF will be quite so unprepared again . As for the casualties their figure is generally regarded as close to reality . Looking at the devastation it’s hard to think it’s that far off . Absolutely tragic news again that doctors are being killed, those who stayed behind to treat the injured are heroes . Too many innocent people have died .
    Hard to disagree with you last sentiments.

    Hamas are the cause of all this.
    The trigger maybe, but don't deny the IDF agency.
    I don’t, but you have to ask what else can they do? I do not believe IDF is deliberately killing Gazans. In contrast to terrorists who murdered for fun then took battered bodies back as trophies.
    If you are correct I think they've now had
    their pound of flesh and it's time to move on.
    Killing Gazans by the lorry load because
    they can will achieve nothing except pile
    odium on them throughout the world.
    So you didn’t look at the photos of the command centre they broke into today?



    No I didn't. Could you post a link
    This was the CNN story

    https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2023/11/20/middleeast/gaza-tunnel-shaft-al-shifa-hospital-intl-hnk/index.html

    And TV

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NDc9zmID9J8
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,248
    a
    Sean_F said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Net migration going to come in around 700,000 people apparently. Now I know we do need immigration as a TFR < 2.2 & aging society but it seems a huge number.

    Migration is the only thing delivering anaemic growth.
    Without it, the UK would be in recession already.
    If immigration is delivering growth - but GDP *per head* isn't rising... Then you'd have a situation where people think the economy is in recession, personally, but the headline would say....

    Yes.
    Weirdly, overall population is only rising by about 200,000 a year. We know that deaths don't exceed births, so the only other explanation is that emigration is heavily undercounted.
    The supermarkets don’t agree on those numbers.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,485

    Roger said:

    Netanyahu says war will continue after hostages released

    Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has said that Israel will continue its war against Hamas "until we achieve all our goals".

    In a video statement recorded before the cabinet met to discuss a possible hostage deal, he said "nonsense" was being spoken to the effect that the war would be stopped once the hostages were released.

    Netanyahu described the hostages' return as a "sacred and top goal".

    "In war there are phases and in returning the hostages there are phases but we will not stop until we have total victory, until we return all of them," he said. "That’s the holy duty of all of us."

    The elimination of Hamas was also a goal, he said, "and that there won't be anything in Gaza that threatens Israel again".

    Test:




    You continue to equate the murder of innocent men, women and children with unfortunate innocent casualties of war.

    You are despicable

    I'm not sure those killed or their relatives would recognise your subtle distinction
    Other people's lives seems cheap to a certain type of right wing ideologue, hence Johnson's "let the bodies pile high" and Sunak's similar statement quoted by Vallance yesterday.

    Likewise some of the generally rightward leaning armchair Generals on here, suggesting that collateral casualties (irrespective of number) are an acceptable feature of conflict, and justifying it by a "well their boys did it to our team on October 7th". It is the heartless language of Hamas. Aren't we, purporting to be from a civilized nation, better than that? I don't know, pick a side.
    The PB Toy Soldiers are the worst thing about this site. They have shifted their toy soldiering from Ukraine to Israel, but the Armchair Generals, as you put it, are largely the same people.
    You may be including me in the armchair general scorn. I don’t think I am. I’d like nothing more for not one more person to die in Gaza. I just think that the easiest way that happens is Hamas releasing ALL the hostages and surrendering. Terrorism ought not prosper.
    Israel is not innocent. The West Bank is a huge issue. But ultimately Israel is surrounded by people who want to wipe it from the face of the earth, and that makes them rather more liable to extreme measures. We would too if France and Ireland wanted to eradicate the U.K. from the face of the Earth, and in living memory had waged war to try to achieve that aim.
    I wasn’t including you, as it happens. I largely agree with the above. Some ludicrous posts tonight though: like that describing @Sunil_Prasannan as “Hamas’ mouthpiece”.
  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,976

    Endillion said:

    Roger said:

    Netanyahu says war will continue after hostages released

    Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has said that Israel will continue its war against Hamas "until we achieve all our goals".

    In a video statement recorded before the cabinet met to discuss a possible hostage deal, he said "nonsense" was being spoken to the effect that the war would be stopped once the hostages were released.

    Netanyahu described the hostages' return as a "sacred and top goal".

    "In war there are phases and in returning the hostages there are phases but we will not stop until we have total victory, until we return all of them," he said. "That’s the holy duty of all of us."

    The elimination of Hamas was also a goal, he said, "and that there won't be anything in Gaza that threatens Israel again".

    Test:




    You continue to equate the murder of innocent men, women and children with unfortunate innocent casualties of war.

    You are despicable

    Excel's telling me that 91% of the victims of this war are Gazans.
    It is not a war it is a slaughter.
    Typically, under such circumstances, the side that's losing surrenders. You don't seem very keen on that, for some reason.
    Hamas are a death cult, they don't give a f*** either way. Not for. Israelis, not for Gazans.

    I don't know who wrote that post for you, but tell them from me, they are not the sharpest tool in the box.
    Hamas are a "death cult" who "don't give a f*** either way" about human life, including the people they are supposed to be governing...

    ... and therefore, what, exactly? Everyone should just leave them alone forever?
  • Roger said:

    Foxy said:

    nico679 said:

    DavidL said:

    Netanyahu says war will continue after hostages released

    Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has said that Israel will continue its war against Hamas "until we achieve all our goals".

    In a video statement recorded before the cabinet met to discuss a possible hostage deal, he said "nonsense" was being spoken to the effect that the war would be stopped once the hostages were released.

    Netanyahu described the hostages' return as a "sacred and top goal".

    "In war there are phases and in returning the hostages there are phases but we will not stop until we have total victory, until we return all of them," he said. "That’s the holy duty of all of us."

    The elimination of Hamas was also a goal, he said, "and that there won't be anything in Gaza that threatens Israel again".

    Test:


    Well let’s assume for a moment that you can believe a single word Hamas says. What is it going to take to stop them from going on a murderous rampage again? That is the question.
    I think this was a one off and I don’t think the IDF will be quite so unprepared again . As for the casualties their figure is generally regarded as close to reality . Looking at the devastation it’s hard to think it’s that far off . Absolutely tragic news again that doctors are being killed, those who stayed behind to treat the injured are heroes . Too many innocent people have died .
    Hard to disagree with you last sentiments.

    Hamas are the cause of all this.
    The trigger maybe, but don't deny the IDF agency.
    I don’t, but you have to ask what else can they do? I do not believe IDF is deliberately killing Gazans. In contrast to terrorists who murdered for fun then took battered bodies back as trophies.
    If you are correct I think they've now had
    their pound of flesh and it's time to move on.
    Killing Gazans by the lorry load because
    they can will achieve nothing except pile
    odium on them throughout the world.
    So you didn’t look at the photos of the
    command centre they broke into today?


    Verified independently?
    CNN

    https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2023/11/20/middleeast/gaza-tunnel-shaft-al-shifa-hospital-intl-hnk/index.html

    “We need to demolish the underground facility that we found,” said IDF spokesperson Rear Admiral Daniel Hagari. “I think the leadership of Hamas is in great pressure because we found this facility, and we are now going to demolish it. It’s going to take us time. We’re going to do it safely, but we’re going to do it.”

    It is arguably the most compelling evidence thus far that the IDF has offered that there may be a network of tunnels below the hospital. It does not establish without a doubt that there is a command center under Gaza’s largest hospital, but it is clear that there is a tunnel down below. Seeing what connects to that tunnel is absolutely critical.
    Did they actually let the CNN go down there?
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,347
    “Toy soldiers” are those posters who think that the West should provide military aid to Ukraine, rather than piously quoting Gandhi, and wringing their hands about how awful it all is.
  • Roger said:

    Netanyahu says war will continue after hostages released

    Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has said that Israel will continue its war against Hamas "until we achieve all our goals".

    In a video statement recorded before the cabinet met to discuss a possible hostage deal, he said "nonsense" was being spoken to the effect that the war would be stopped once the hostages were released.

    Netanyahu described the hostages' return as a "sacred and top goal".

    "In war there are phases and in returning the hostages there are phases but we will not stop until we have total victory, until we return all of them," he said. "That’s the holy duty of all of us."

    The elimination of Hamas was also a goal, he said, "and that there won't be anything in Gaza that threatens Israel again".

    Test:




    You continue to equate the murder of innocent men, women and children with unfortunate innocent casualties of war.

    You are despicable

    I'm not sure those killed or their relatives would recognise your subtle distinction
    Other people's lives seems cheap to a certain type of right wing ideologue, hence Johnson's "let the bodies pile high" and Sunak's similar statement quoted by Vallance yesterday.

    Likewise some of the generally rightward leaning armchair Generals on here, suggesting that collateral casualties (irrespective of number) are an acceptable feature of conflict, and justifying it by a "well their boys did it to our team on October 7th". It is the heartless language of Hamas. Aren't we, purporting to be from a civilized nation, better than that? I don't know, pick a side.
    The PB Toy Soldiers are the worst thing about this site. They have shifted their toy soldiering from Ukraine to Israel, but the Armchair Generals, as you put it, are largely the same people.
    You may be including me in the armchair general scorn. I don’t think I am. I’d like nothing more for not one more person to die in Gaza. I just think that the easiest way that happens is Hamas releasing ALL the hostages and surrendering. Terrorism ought not prosper.
    Israel is not innocent. The West Bank is a huge issue. But ultimately Israel is surrounded by people who want to wipe it from the face of the earth, and that makes them rather more liable to extreme measures. We would too if France and Ireland wanted to eradicate the U.K. from the face of the Earth, and in living memory had waged war to try to achieve that aim.
    I wasn’t including you, as it happens. I largely agree with the above. Some ludicrous posts tonight though: like that describing @Sunil_Prasannan as “Hamas’ mouthpiece”.
    He keeps spreadsheets of Hamas propaganda and litters it on here
  • Some people on here have a bizarrely weird obsession with Gary Lineker.

    Gary Lineker has a bizarrely weird obsession with retweeting Owen Jones and his constant barraging of Israel.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,248

    Roger said:

    Netanyahu says war will continue after hostages released

    Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has said that Israel will continue its war against Hamas "until we achieve all our goals".

    In a video statement recorded before the cabinet met to discuss a possible hostage deal, he said "nonsense" was being spoken to the effect that the war would be stopped once the hostages were released.

    Netanyahu described the hostages' return as a "sacred and top goal".

    "In war there are phases and in returning the hostages there are phases but we will not stop until we have total victory, until we return all of them," he said. "That’s the holy duty of all of us."

    The elimination of Hamas was also a goal, he said, "and that there won't be anything in Gaza that threatens Israel again".

    Test:




    You continue to equate the murder of innocent men, women and children with unfortunate innocent casualties of war.

    You are despicable

    I'm not sure those killed or their relatives would recognise your subtle distinction
    Other people's lives seems cheap to a certain type of right wing ideologue, hence Johnson's "let the bodies pile high" and Sunak's similar statement quoted by Vallance yesterday.

    Likewise some of the generally rightward leaning armchair Generals on here, suggesting that collateral casualties (irrespective of number) are an acceptable feature of conflict, and justifying it by a "well their boys did it to our team on October 7th". It is the heartless language of Hamas. Aren't we, purporting to be from a civilized nation, better than that? I don't know, pick a side.
    The PB Toy Soldiers are the worst thing about this site. They have shifted their toy soldiering from Ukraine to Israel, but the Armchair Generals, as you put it, are largely the same people.
    What about the Toy Meternicht‘s - always up for selling a slice of someone else’s country?

    Or the Toy Pension Reformers - who seem to regard all pensioners as Ballast Existences?

    Come one, spread your anger wider….
  • Roger said:

    Netanyahu says war will continue after hostages released

    Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has said that Israel will continue its war against Hamas "until we achieve all our goals".

    In a video statement recorded before the cabinet met to discuss a possible hostage deal, he said "nonsense" was being spoken to the effect that the war would be stopped once the hostages were released.

    Netanyahu described the hostages' return as a "sacred and top goal".

    "In war there are phases and in returning the hostages there are phases but we will not stop until we have total victory, until we return all of them," he said. "That’s the holy duty of all of us."

    The elimination of Hamas was also a goal, he said, "and that there won't be anything in Gaza that threatens Israel again".

    Test:




    You continue to equate the murder of innocent men, women and children with unfortunate innocent casualties of war.

    You are despicable

    I'm not sure those killed or their relatives would recognise your subtle distinction
    Other people's lives seems cheap to a certain type of right wing ideologue, hence Johnson's "let the bodies pile high" and Sunak's similar statement quoted by Vallance yesterday.

    Likewise some of the generally rightward leaning armchair Generals on here, suggesting that collateral casualties (irrespective of number) are an acceptable feature of conflict, and justifying it by a "well their boys did it to our team on October 7th". It is the heartless language of Hamas. Aren't we, purporting to be from a civilized nation, better than that? I don't know, pick a side.
    The PB Toy Soldiers are the worst thing about this site. They have shifted their toy soldiering from Ukraine to Israel, but the Armchair Generals, as you put it, are largely the same people.
    You may be including me in the armchair general scorn. I don’t think I am. I’d like nothing more for not one more person to die in Gaza. I just think that the easiest way that happens is Hamas releasing ALL the hostages and surrendering. Terrorism ought not prosper.
    Israel is not innocent. The West Bank is a huge issue. But ultimately Israel is surrounded by people who want to wipe it from the face of the earth, and that makes them rather more liable to extreme measures. We would too if France and Ireland wanted to eradicate the U.K. from the face of the Earth, and in living memory had waged war to try to achieve that aim.
    I wasn’t including you, as it happens. I largely agree with the above. Some ludicrous posts tonight though: like that describing @Sunil_Prasannan as “Hamas’ mouthpiece”.
    He keeps spreadsheets of Hamas propaganda and litters it on here
    He should attribute it properly with a Hamas flag emoji
  • MightyAlexMightyAlex Posts: 1,660
    edited November 2023

    Roger said:

    Foxy said:

    nico679 said:

    DavidL said:

    Netanyahu says war will continue after hostages released

    Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has said that Israel will continue its war against Hamas "until we achieve all our goals".

    In a video statement recorded before the cabinet met to discuss a possible hostage deal, he said "nonsense" was being spoken to the effect that the war would be stopped once the hostages were released.

    Netanyahu described the hostages' return as a "sacred and top goal".

    "In war there are phases and in returning the hostages there are phases but we will not stop until we have total victory, until we return all of them," he said. "That’s the holy duty of all of us."

    The elimination of Hamas was also a goal, he said, "and that there won't be anything in Gaza that threatens Israel again".

    Test:


    Well let’s assume for a moment that you can believe a single word Hamas says. What is it going to take to stop them from going on a murderous rampage again? That is the question.
    I think this was a one off and I don’t think the IDF will be quite so unprepared again . As for the casualties their figure is generally regarded as close to reality . Looking at the devastation it’s hard to think it’s that far off . Absolutely tragic news again that doctors are being killed, those who stayed behind to treat the injured are heroes . Too many innocent people have died .
    Hard to disagree with you last sentiments.

    Hamas are the cause of all this.
    The trigger maybe, but don't deny the IDF agency.
    I don’t, but you have to ask what else can they do? I do not believe IDF is deliberately killing Gazans. In contrast to terrorists who murdered for fun then took battered bodies back as trophies.
    If you are correct I think they've now had
    their pound of flesh and it's time to move on.
    Killing Gazans by the lorry load because
    they can will achieve nothing except pile
    odium on them throughout the world.
    So you didn’t look at the photos of the
    command centre they broke into today?


    Verified independently?
    CNN

    https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2023/11/20/middleeast/gaza-tunnel-shaft-al-shifa-hospital-intl-hnk/index.html

    “We need to demolish the underground facility that we found,” said IDF spokesperson Rear Admiral Daniel Hagari. “I think the leadership of Hamas is in great pressure because we found this facility, and we are now going to demolish it. It’s going to take us time. We’re going to do it safely, but we’re going to do it.”

    It is arguably the most compelling evidence thus far that the IDF has offered that there may be a network of tunnels below the hospital. It does not establish without a doubt that there is a command center under Gaza’s largest hospital, but it is clear that there is a tunnel down below. Seeing what connects to that tunnel is absolutely critical.
    Israel knows the bunkers there specifically because they helped build it.

    https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/barak-causes-storm-by-telling-cnn-israel-helped-build-some-spaces-beneath-shifa/

    You'd imagine Hamas have been using it but there's no released evidence
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,906

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    Foxy said:

    nico679 said:

    DavidL said:

    Netanyahu says war will continue after hostages released

    Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has said that Israel will continue its war against Hamas "until we achieve all our goals".

    In a video statement recorded before the cabinet met to discuss a possible hostage deal, he said "nonsense" was being spoken to the effect that the war would be stopped once the hostages were released.

    Netanyahu described the hostages' return as a "sacred and top goal".

    "In war there are phases and in returning the hostages there are phases but we will not stop until we have total victory, until we return all of them," he said. "That’s the holy duty of all of us."

    The elimination of Hamas was also a goal, he said, "and that there won't be anything in Gaza that threatens Israel again".

    Test:


    Well let’s assume for a moment that you can believe a single word Hamas says. What is it going to take to stop them from going on a murderous rampage again? That is the question.
    I think this was a one off and I don’t think the IDF will be quite so unprepared again . As for the casualties their figure is generally regarded as close to reality . Looking at the devastation it’s hard to think it’s that far off . Absolutely tragic news again that doctors are being killed, those who stayed behind to treat the injured are heroes . Too many innocent people have died .
    Hard to disagree with you last sentiments.

    Hamas are the cause of all this.
    The trigger maybe, but don't deny the IDF agency.
    I don’t, but you have to ask what else can they do? I do not believe IDF is deliberately killing Gazans. In contrast to terrorists who murdered for fun then took battered bodies back as trophies.
    If you are correct I think they've now had
    their pound of flesh and it's time to move on.
    Killing Gazans by the lorry load because
    they can will achieve nothing except pile
    odium on them throughout the world.
    So you didn’t look at the photos of the command centre they broke into today?


    No I didn't. Could you post a link
    Until the claims are unequivocally verified, colour me skeptical. Hamas may well have a network of tunnels under hospitals, but when the bearer of these tidings is Team Netanyahu, I remain unconvinced without third party confirmation.

    I listen most days to BBC WATO whilst having lunch in my car, and everyday Mark Regev gives an informed account of developments. Forgive me, but I wouldn't believe him if he told me "good morning".
    Mark Regev and Aylon Levy are totally discredited. No one believes a word that they say. Both are PR men who haven't the faintest idea how to do what they are paid to do which is make Israel look like they are behaving reasonably. They seem to think if if they bully and shout at their interviewers they'll get their message across.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368
    Sean_F said:

    Roger said:

    Netanyahu says war will continue after hostages released

    Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has said that Israel will continue its war against Hamas "until we achieve all our goals".

    In a video statement recorded before the cabinet met to discuss a possible hostage deal, he said "nonsense" was being spoken to the effect that the war would be stopped once the hostages were released.

    Netanyahu described the hostages' return as a "sacred and top goal".

    "In war there are phases and in returning the hostages there are phases but we will not stop until we have total victory, until we return all of them," he said. "That’s the holy duty of all of us."

    The elimination of Hamas was also a goal, he said, "and that there won't be anything in Gaza that threatens Israel again".

    Test:




    You continue to equate the murder of innocent men, women and children with unfortunate innocent casualties of war.

    You are despicable

    I'm not sure those killed or their relatives would recognise your subtle distinction
    Other people's lives seems cheap to a certain type of right wing ideologue, hence Johnson's "let the bodies pile high" and Sunak's similar statement quoted by Vallance yesterday.

    Likewise some of the generally rightward leaning armchair Generals on here, suggesting that collateral casualties (irrespective of number) are an acceptable feature of conflict, and justifying it by a "well their boys did it to our team on October 7th". It is the heartless language of Hamas. Aren't we, purporting to be from a civilized nation, better than that? I don't know, pick a side.
    I think that, in general, politicians do develop such indifference, and I think it's a part of the territory. People die, directly or indirectly, due to all manner of policy changes.
    There is a disturbing and stark disconnect between politicians and citizens when "phrases like "let people die" and "pile the bodies high" are so much as thought, let alone spoken. They weren't their "people", or their "bodies". It was the rest of us, you included, and we could go hang.

    Who has a mindset like that?
  • Roger said:

    Netanyahu says war will continue after hostages released

    Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has said that Israel will continue its war against Hamas "until we achieve all our goals".

    In a video statement recorded before the cabinet met to discuss a possible hostage deal, he said "nonsense" was being spoken to the effect that the war would be stopped once the hostages were released.

    Netanyahu described the hostages' return as a "sacred and top goal".

    "In war there are phases and in returning the hostages there are phases but we will not stop until we have total victory, until we return all of them," he said. "That’s the holy duty of all of us."

    The elimination of Hamas was also a goal, he said, "and that there won't be anything in Gaza that threatens Israel again".

    Test:




    You continue to equate the murder of innocent men, women and children with unfortunate innocent casualties of war.

    You are despicable

    I'm not sure those killed or their relatives would recognise your subtle distinction
    Other people's lives seems cheap to a certain type of right wing ideologue, hence Johnson's "let the bodies pile high" and Sunak's similar statement quoted by Vallance yesterday.

    Likewise some of the generally rightward leaning armchair Generals on here, suggesting that collateral casualties (irrespective of number) are an acceptable feature of conflict, and justifying it by a "well their boys did it to our team on October 7th". It is the heartless language of Hamas. Aren't we, purporting to be from a civilized nation, better than that? I don't know, pick a side.
    The PB Toy Soldiers are the worst thing about this site. They have shifted their toy soldiering from Ukraine to Israel, but the Armchair Generals, as you put it, are largely the same people.
    You may be including me in the armchair general scorn. I don’t think I am. I’d like nothing more for not one more person to die in Gaza. I just think that the easiest way that happens is Hamas releasing ALL the hostages and surrendering. Terrorism ought not prosper.
    Israel is not innocent. The West Bank is a huge issue. But ultimately Israel is surrounded by people who want to wipe it from the face of the earth, and that makes them rather more liable to extreme measures. We would too if France and Ireland wanted to eradicate the U.K. from the face of the Earth, and in living memory had waged war to try to achieve that aim.
    I wasn’t including you, as it happens. I largely agree with the above. Some ludicrous posts tonight though: like that describing @Sunil_Prasannan as “Hamas’ mouthpiece”.
    He keeps spreadsheets of Hamas propaganda and litters it on here
    bar charts you mean?

  • Sean_F said:

    “Toy soldiers” are those posters who think that the West should provide military aid to Ukraine, rather than piously quoting Gandhi, and wringing their hands about how awful it all is.

    FWIW I have and always will hope Ukraine will some day win back every square inch of its territory occupied by Putin.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,248
    Sean_F said:

    “Toy soldiers” are those posters who think that the West should provide military aid to Ukraine, rather than piously quoting Gandhi, and wringing their hands about how awful it all is.

    I well recall the Proper People intoning that arming the opponents of the Serbs in the Yugoslav Wars was “just levelling the killing fields”

    The job of the Croats and Bosnians was to die in picturesque style for the cover of Time magazine.

    And they should shut up and get on with it.

    While their betters tried giving the Serbs a better slice of the pie - so what if they broken 10 agreements? The 11th would do the trick…
  • Roger said:

    Netanyahu says war will continue after hostages released

    Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has said that Israel will continue its war against Hamas "until we achieve all our goals".

    In a video statement recorded before the cabinet met to discuss a possible hostage deal, he said "nonsense" was being spoken to the effect that the war would be stopped once the hostages were released.

    Netanyahu described the hostages' return as a "sacred and top goal".

    "In war there are phases and in returning the hostages there are phases but we will not stop until we have total victory, until we return all of them," he said. "That’s the holy duty of all of us."

    The elimination of Hamas was also a goal, he said, "and that there won't be anything in Gaza that threatens Israel again".

    Test:




    You continue to equate the murder of innocent men, women and children with unfortunate innocent casualties of war.

    You are despicable

    I'm not sure those killed or their relatives would recognise your subtle distinction
    Other people's lives seems cheap to a certain type of right wing ideologue, hence Johnson's "let the bodies pile high" and Sunak's similar statement quoted by Vallance yesterday.

    Likewise some of the generally rightward leaning armchair Generals on here, suggesting that collateral casualties (irrespective of number) are an acceptable feature of conflict, and justifying it by a "well their boys did it to our team on October 7th". It is the heartless language of Hamas. Aren't we, purporting to be from a civilized nation, better than that? I don't know, pick a side.
    The PB Toy Soldiers are the worst thing about this site. They have shifted their toy soldiering from Ukraine to Israel, but the Armchair Generals, as you put it, are largely the same people.
    You may be including me in the armchair general scorn. I don’t think I am. I’d like nothing more for not one more person to die in Gaza. I just think that the easiest way that happens is Hamas releasing ALL the hostages and surrendering. Terrorism ought not prosper.
    Israel is not innocent. The West Bank is a huge issue. But ultimately Israel is surrounded by people who want to wipe it from the face of the earth, and that makes them rather more liable to extreme measures. We would too if France and Ireland wanted to eradicate the U.K. from the face of the Earth, and in living memory had waged war to try to achieve that aim.
    I wasn’t including you, as it happens. I largely agree with the above. Some ludicrous posts tonight though: like that describing @Sunil_Prasannan as “Hamas’ mouthpiece”.
    Maybe Sunil is angling for a job as Head of Palestine Railways when all this is finished.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,485
    edited November 2023

    Roger said:

    Netanyahu says war will continue after hostages released

    Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has said that Israel will continue its war against Hamas "until we achieve all our goals".

    In a video statement recorded before the cabinet met to discuss a possible hostage deal, he said "nonsense" was being spoken to the effect that the war would be stopped once the hostages were released.

    Netanyahu described the hostages' return as a "sacred and top goal".

    "In war there are phases and in returning the hostages there are phases but we will not stop until we have total victory, until we return all of them," he said. "That’s the holy duty of all of us."

    The elimination of Hamas was also a goal, he said, "and that there won't be anything in Gaza that threatens Israel again".

    Test:




    You continue to equate the murder of innocent men, women and children with unfortunate innocent casualties of war.

    You are despicable

    I'm not sure those killed or their relatives would recognise your subtle distinction
    Other people's lives seems cheap to a certain type of right wing ideologue, hence Johnson's "let the bodies pile high" and Sunak's similar statement quoted by Vallance yesterday.

    Likewise some of the generally rightward leaning armchair Generals on here, suggesting that collateral casualties (irrespective of number) are an acceptable feature of conflict, and justifying it by a "well their boys did it to our team on October 7th". It is the heartless language of Hamas. Aren't we, purporting to be from a civilized nation, better than that? I don't know, pick a side.
    The PB Toy Soldiers are the worst thing about this site. They have shifted their toy soldiering from Ukraine to Israel, but the Armchair Generals, as you put it, are largely the same people.
    You may be including me in the armchair general scorn. I don’t think I am. I’d like nothing more for not one more person to die in Gaza. I just think that the easiest way that happens is Hamas releasing ALL the hostages and surrendering. Terrorism ought not prosper.
    Israel is not innocent. The West Bank is a huge issue. But ultimately Israel is surrounded by people who want to wipe it from the face of the earth, and that makes them rather more liable to extreme measures. We would too if France and Ireland wanted to eradicate the U.K. from the face of the Earth, and in living memory had waged war to try to achieve that aim.
    Sean_F said:

    “Toy soldiers” are those posters who think that the West should provide military aid to Ukraine, rather than piously quoting Gandhi, and wringing their hands about how awful it all is.

    Wrong.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,485
    ….
  • Roger said:

    Netanyahu says war will continue after hostages released

    Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has said that Israel will continue its war against Hamas "until we achieve all our goals".

    In a video statement recorded before the cabinet met to discuss a possible hostage deal, he said "nonsense" was being spoken to the effect that the war would be stopped once the hostages were released.

    Netanyahu described the hostages' return as a "sacred and top goal".

    "In war there are phases and in returning the hostages there are phases but we will not stop until we have total victory, until we return all of them," he said. "That’s the holy duty of all of us."

    The elimination of Hamas was also a goal, he said, "and that there won't be anything in Gaza that threatens Israel again".

    Test:




    You continue to equate the murder of innocent men, women and children with unfortunate innocent casualties of war.

    You are despicable

    I'm not sure those killed or their relatives would recognise your subtle distinction
    Other people's lives seems cheap to a certain type of right wing ideologue, hence Johnson's "let the bodies pile high" and Sunak's similar statement quoted by Vallance yesterday.

    Likewise some of the generally rightward leaning armchair Generals on here, suggesting that collateral casualties (irrespective of number) are an acceptable feature of conflict, and justifying it by a "well their boys did it to our team on October 7th". It is the heartless language of Hamas. Aren't we, purporting to be from a civilized nation, better than that? I don't know, pick a side.
    The PB Toy Soldiers are the worst thing about this site. They have shifted their toy soldiering from Ukraine to Israel, but the Armchair Generals, as you put it, are largely the same people.
    You may be including me in the armchair general scorn. I don’t think I am. I’d like nothing more for not one more person to die in Gaza. I just think that the easiest way that happens is Hamas releasing ALL the hostages and surrendering. Terrorism ought not prosper.
    Israel is not innocent. The West Bank is a huge issue. But ultimately Israel is surrounded by people who want to wipe it from the face of the earth, and that makes them rather more liable to extreme measures. We would too if France and Ireland wanted to eradicate the U.K. from the face of the Earth, and in living memory had waged war to try to achieve that aim.
    I wasn’t including you, as it happens. I largely agree with the above. Some ludicrous posts tonight though: like that describing @Sunil_Prasannan as “Hamas’ mouthpiece”.
    Maybe Sunil is angling for a job as Head of Palestine Railways when all this is finished.
    Unfortunately the IDF have probably demolished the Gaza Metro :grimace:
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368
    Endillion said:

    Endillion said:

    Roger said:

    Netanyahu says war will continue after hostages released

    Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has said that Israel will continue its war against Hamas "until we achieve all our goals".

    In a video statement recorded before the cabinet met to discuss a possible hostage deal, he said "nonsense" was being spoken to the effect that the war would be stopped once the hostages were released.

    Netanyahu described the hostages' return as a "sacred and top goal".

    "In war there are phases and in returning the hostages there are phases but we will not stop until we have total victory, until we return all of them," he said. "That’s the holy duty of all of us."

    The elimination of Hamas was also a goal, he said, "and that there won't be anything in Gaza that threatens Israel again".

    Test:




    You continue to equate the murder of innocent men, women and children with unfortunate innocent casualties of war.

    You are despicable

    Excel's telling me that 91% of the victims of this war are Gazans.
    It is not a war it is a slaughter.
    Typically, under such circumstances, the side that's losing surrenders. You don't seem very keen on that, for some reason.
    Hamas are a death cult, they don't give a f*** either way. Not for. Israelis, not for Gazans.

    I don't know who wrote that post for you, but tell them from me, they are not the sharpest tool in the box.
    Hamas are a "death cult" who "don't give a f*** either way" about human life, including the people they are supposed to be governing...

    ... and therefore, what, exactly? Everyone should just leave them alone forever?
    Who suggested leaving Hamas alone forever? It certainly wasn't me. However, the price for eradicating Hamas, shouldn't be the eradication of ten thousand, or a hundred thousand , or a million Palestinian women and children.
  • How many Hamas savages should survive this attack to save the innocents?
  • Sean_F said:

    “Toy soldiers” are those posters who think that the West should provide military aid to Ukraine, rather than piously quoting Gandhi, and wringing their hands about how awful it all is.

    I well recall the Proper People intoning that arming the opponents of the Serbs in the Yugoslav Wars was “just levelling the killing fields”

    The job of the Croats and Bosnians was to die in picturesque style for the cover of Time magazine.

    And they should shut up and get on with it.

    While their betters tried giving the Serbs a better slice of the pie - so what if they broken 10 agreements? The 11th would do the trick…
    Sorry, are the Bosnian factions actually killing each other 28 years on?
  • Hmmm....

    The world's best cities for 2024 have been revealed and it's London that's number one followed by Paris and New York.

    That's according to an annual report by Resonance Consultancy, which ranks the top 100 from 270-plus cities with populations of more than one million.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/article-12774333/The-best-100-cities-planet-ranked-despite-Brexit-London-thats-No-1-followed-Paris-New-York-does-favourite-city-come-list.html
  • Roger said:

    Netanyahu says war will continue after hostages released

    Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has said that Israel will continue its war against Hamas "until we achieve all our goals".

    In a video statement recorded before the cabinet met to discuss a possible hostage deal, he said "nonsense" was being spoken to the effect that the war would be stopped once the hostages were released.

    Netanyahu described the hostages' return as a "sacred and top goal".

    "In war there are phases and in returning the hostages there are phases but we will not stop until we have total victory, until we return all of them," he said. "That’s the holy duty of all of us."

    The elimination of Hamas was also a goal, he said, "and that there won't be anything in Gaza that threatens Israel again".

    Test:




    You continue to equate the murder of innocent men, women and children with unfortunate innocent casualties of war.

    You are despicable

    I'm not sure those killed or their relatives would recognise your subtle distinction
    Other people's lives seems cheap to a certain type of right wing ideologue, hence Johnson's "let the bodies pile high" and Sunak's similar statement quoted by Vallance yesterday.

    Likewise some of the generally rightward leaning armchair Generals on here, suggesting that collateral casualties (irrespective of number) are an acceptable feature of conflict, and justifying it by a "well their boys did it to our team on October 7th". It is the heartless language of Hamas. Aren't we, purporting to be from a civilized nation, better than that? I don't know, pick a side.
    The PB Toy Soldiers are the worst thing about this site. They have shifted their toy soldiering from Ukraine to Israel, but the Armchair Generals, as you put it, are largely the same people.
    You may be including me in the armchair general scorn. I don’t think I am. I’d like nothing more for not one more person to die in Gaza. I just think that the easiest way that happens is Hamas releasing ALL the hostages and surrendering. Terrorism ought not prosper.
    Israel is not innocent. The West Bank is a huge issue. But ultimately Israel is surrounded by people who want to wipe it from the face of the earth, and that makes them rather more liable to extreme measures. We would too if France and Ireland wanted to eradicate the U.K. from the face of the Earth, and in living memory had waged war to try to achieve that aim.
    I wasn’t including you, as it happens. I largely agree with the above. Some ludicrous posts tonight though: like that describing @Sunil_Prasannan as “Hamas’ mouthpiece”.
    Maybe Sunil is angling for a job as Head of Palestine Railways when all this is finished.
    Unfortunately the IDF have probably demolished the Gaza Metro :grimace:
    Wasn't there a metro stop under that hospital? Maybe that is what the Israelis found. Access wasn't exactly disabled friendly though.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,485

    Sean_F said:

    Roger said:

    Netanyahu says war will continue after hostages released

    Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has said that Israel will continue its war against Hamas "until we achieve all our goals".

    In a video statement recorded before the cabinet met to discuss a possible hostage deal, he said "nonsense" was being spoken to the effect that the war would be stopped once the hostages were released.

    Netanyahu described the hostages' return as a "sacred and top goal".

    "In war there are phases and in returning the hostages there are phases but we will not stop until we have total victory, until we return all of them," he said. "That’s the holy duty of all of us."

    The elimination of Hamas was also a goal, he said, "and that there won't be anything in Gaza that threatens Israel again".

    Test:




    You continue to equate the murder of innocent men, women and children with unfortunate innocent casualties of war.

    You are despicable

    I'm not sure those killed or their relatives would recognise your subtle distinction
    Other people's lives seems cheap to a certain type of right wing ideologue, hence Johnson's "let the bodies pile high" and Sunak's similar statement quoted by Vallance yesterday.

    Likewise some of the generally rightward leaning armchair Generals on here, suggesting that collateral casualties (irrespective of number) are an acceptable feature of conflict, and justifying it by a "well their boys did it to our team on October 7th". It is the heartless language of Hamas. Aren't we, purporting to be from a civilized nation, better than that? I don't know, pick a side.
    I think that, in general, politicians do develop such indifference, and I think it's a part of the territory. People die, directly or indirectly, due to all manner of policy changes.
    There is a disturbing and stark disconnect between politicians and citizens when "phrases like "let people die" and "pile the bodies high" are so much as thought, let alone spoken. They weren't their "people", or their "bodies". It was the rest of us, you included, and we could go hang.

    Who has a mindset like that?
    The PB Toy Soldiers. They are vocal about letting others die, though never volunteer their own lives in a conflict.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,908
    Pulpstar said:

    Net migration going to come in around 700,000 people apparently. Now I know we do need immigration as a TFR < 2.2 & aging society but it seems a huge number.

    Ministers are responding by requiring a minimum £30k salary for skilled foreign migrants who want to come to the UK

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/11/19/foreign-workers-will-need-30k-salary-to-come-to-britain/
  • Roger said:

    Netanyahu says war will continue after hostages released

    Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has said that Israel will continue its war against Hamas "until we achieve all our goals".

    In a video statement recorded before the cabinet met to discuss a possible hostage deal, he said "nonsense" was being spoken to the effect that the war would be stopped once the hostages were released.

    Netanyahu described the hostages' return as a "sacred and top goal".

    "In war there are phases and in returning the hostages there are phases but we will not stop until we have total victory, until we return all of them," he said. "That’s the holy duty of all of us."

    The elimination of Hamas was also a goal, he said, "and that there won't be anything in Gaza that threatens Israel again".

    Test:




    You continue to equate the murder of innocent men, women and children with unfortunate innocent casualties of war.

    You are despicable

    I'm not sure those killed or their relatives would recognise your subtle distinction
    Other people's lives seems cheap to a certain type of right wing ideologue, hence Johnson's "let the bodies pile high" and Sunak's similar statement quoted by Vallance yesterday.

    Likewise some of the generally rightward leaning armchair Generals on here, suggesting that collateral casualties (irrespective of number) are an acceptable feature of conflict, and justifying it by a "well their boys did it to our team on October 7th". It is the heartless language of Hamas. Aren't we, purporting to be from a civilized nation, better than that? I don't know, pick a side.
    The PB Toy Soldiers are the worst thing about this site. They have shifted their toy soldiering from Ukraine to Israel, but the Armchair Generals, as you put it, are largely the same people.
    You may be including me in the armchair general scorn. I don’t think I am. I’d like nothing more for not one more person to die in Gaza. I just think that the easiest way that happens is Hamas releasing ALL the hostages and surrendering. Terrorism ought not prosper.
    Israel is not innocent. The West Bank is a huge issue. But ultimately Israel is surrounded by people who want to wipe it from the face of the earth, and that makes them rather more liable to extreme measures. We would too if France and Ireland wanted to eradicate the U.K. from the face of the Earth, and in living memory had waged war to try to achieve that aim.
    I wasn’t including you, as it happens. I largely agree with the above. Some ludicrous posts tonight though: like that describing @Sunil_Prasannan as “Hamas’ mouthpiece”.
    Maybe Sunil is angling for a job as Head of Palestine Railways when all this is finished.
    Unfortunately the IDF have probably demolished the Gaza Metro :grimace:
    Wasn't there a metro stop under that hospital? Maybe that is what the Israelis found. Access wasn't exactly disabled friendly though.
    Maybe TfL were involved, I dunno :confused:
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,485

    Roger said:

    Netanyahu says war will continue after hostages released

    Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has said that Israel will continue its war against Hamas "until we achieve all our goals".

    In a video statement recorded before the cabinet met to discuss a possible hostage deal, he said "nonsense" was being spoken to the effect that the war would be stopped once the hostages were released.

    Netanyahu described the hostages' return as a "sacred and top goal".

    "In war there are phases and in returning the hostages there are phases but we will not stop until we have total victory, until we return all of them," he said. "That’s the holy duty of all of us."

    The elimination of Hamas was also a goal, he said, "and that there won't be anything in Gaza that threatens Israel again".

    Test:




    You continue to equate the murder of innocent men, women and children with unfortunate innocent casualties of war.

    You are despicable

    I'm not sure those killed or their relatives would recognise your subtle distinction
    Other people's lives seems cheap to a certain type of right wing ideologue, hence Johnson's "let the bodies pile high" and Sunak's similar statement quoted by Vallance yesterday.

    Likewise some of the generally rightward leaning armchair Generals on here, suggesting that collateral casualties (irrespective of number) are an acceptable feature of conflict, and justifying it by a "well their boys did it to our team on October 7th". It is the heartless language of Hamas. Aren't we, purporting to be from a civilized nation, better than that? I don't know, pick a side.
    The PB Toy Soldiers are the worst thing about this site. They have shifted their toy soldiering from Ukraine to Israel, but the Armchair Generals, as you put it, are largely the same people.
    You may be including me in the armchair general scorn. I don’t think I am. I’d like nothing more for not one more person to die in Gaza. I just think that the easiest way that happens is Hamas releasing ALL the hostages and surrendering. Terrorism ought not prosper.
    Israel is not innocent. The West Bank is a huge issue. But ultimately Israel is surrounded by people who want to wipe it from the face of the earth, and that makes them rather more liable to extreme measures. We would too if France and Ireland wanted to eradicate the U.K. from the face of the Earth, and in living memory had waged war to try to achieve that aim.
    I wasn’t including you, as it happens. I largely agree with the above. Some ludicrous posts tonight though: like that describing @Sunil_Prasannan as “Hamas’ mouthpiece”.
    Maybe Sunil is angling for a job as Head of Palestine Railways when all this is finished.
    I’m sure you are capable of better.
  • sarissasarissa Posts: 1,993

    Roger said:

    Foxy said:

    nico679 said:

    DavidL said:

    Netanyahu says war will continue after hostages released

    Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has said that Israel will continue its war against Hamas "until we achieve all our goals".

    In a video statement recorded before the cabinet met to discuss a possible hostage deal, he said "nonsense" was being spoken to the effect that the war would be stopped once the hostages were released.

    Netanyahu described the hostages' return as a "sacred and top goal".

    "In war there are phases and in returning the hostages there are phases but we will not stop until we have total victory, until we return all of them," he said. "That’s the holy duty of all of us."

    The elimination of Hamas was also a goal, he said, "and that there won't be anything in Gaza that threatens Israel again".

    Test:


    Well let’s assume for a moment that you can believe a single word Hamas says. What is it going to take to stop them from going on a murderous rampage again? That is the question.
    I think this was a one off and I don’t think the IDF will be quite so unprepared again . As for the casualties their figure is generally regarded as close to reality . Looking at the devastation it’s hard to think it’s that far off . Absolutely tragic news again that doctors are being killed, those who stayed behind to treat the injured are heroes . Too many innocent people have died .
    Hard to disagree with you last sentiments.

    Hamas are the cause of all this.
    The trigger maybe, but don't deny the IDF agency.
    I don’t, but you have to ask what else can they do? I do not believe IDF is deliberately killing Gazans. In contrast to terrorists who murdered for fun then took battered bodies back as trophies.
    If you are correct I think they've now had
    their pound of flesh and it's time to move on.
    Killing Gazans by the lorry load because
    they can will achieve nothing except pile
    odium on them throughout the world.
    So you didn’t look at the photos of the
    command centre they broke into today?


    Verified independently?
    CNN

    https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2023/11/20/middleeast/gaza-tunnel-shaft-al-shifa-hospital-intl-hnk/index.html

    “We need to demolish the underground facility that we found,” said IDF spokesperson Rear Admiral Daniel Hagari. “I think the leadership of Hamas is in great pressure because we found this facility, and we are now going to demolish it. It’s going to take us time. We’re going to do it safely, but we’re going to do it.”

    It is arguably the most compelling evidence thus far that the IDF has offered that there may be a network of tunnels below the hospital. It does not establish without a doubt that there is a command center under Gaza’s largest hospital, but it is clear that there is a tunnel down below. Seeing what connects to that tunnel is absolutely critical.
    The IDF are going to destroy the ‘large basement’ added when the hospital was being renovated by the Israeli government in the 1990s? Well, at least they will have the structural drawings.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,307

    Cyclefree said:

    Jug ears can't help himself...funny how he lost access to his twitter account for a few days around 7th October.

    Gary Lineker has endorsed a video by journalist Owen Jones in which an academic accuses Israel of “genocide” and dismisses comparisons between Hamas and the Nazis.

    The Match of the Day presenter shared a tweet by Mr Jones, a columnist with the Guardian, of his interview with Raz Segal, an Israeli-American historian, and he added the caption: “Worth 13 minutes of anyone’s time.”

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/11/21/bbc-lineker-israel-hamas-textbook-genocide-raz-segal/

    What's the controversy here? That the historian is dangerous and wrong and Jones shouldn't be giving him a platform, or that Jug Ears should just butt out?
    The more interesting point is that the arguments Raz Segal puts forward for why what Israel is doing in Gaza is genocide (and, yes, I have read what he's written) apply equally to what Hamas has done and intends doing. So if, Owen Jones (and others) accepts Segal's arguments then he has to say that both Israel and Hamas are committing genocide.Or neither of them are. But that is not his position. Jones is of course too stupid to understand what he so readily accepts because it accords with his preconceived opinion.
    Can you commit genocide by intention alone?
    That is one of Segal's contentions. He quotes what an Israeli politician says they want to do as evidence of "genocide". If that is so for the goose, it is so for the gander.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,908

    Nobody doubts that circa 10,000 Palestinians and many children have died.

    It’s truly ghastly to dismiss it all as Hamas propaganda, even if you believe Israel’s campaign can be justified.

    It is but Neyanyahu has made clear tonight the war will continue until Hamas are destroyed, even if the hostages are released
  • Anti-migrant firebrand Geert Wilders leads Dutch polls on eve of knife-edge election
    The hard-Right leader is predicted to win 28 seats, enough to potentially make him Netherlands prime minister

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/11/21/anti-migrant-geert-wilders-leads-netherlands-polls-election/
  • Roger said:

    Netanyahu says war will continue after hostages released

    Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has said that Israel will continue its war against Hamas "until we achieve all our goals".

    In a video statement recorded before the cabinet met to discuss a possible hostage deal, he said "nonsense" was being spoken to the effect that the war would be stopped once the hostages were released.

    Netanyahu described the hostages' return as a "sacred and top goal".

    "In war there are phases and in returning the hostages there are phases but we will not stop until we have total victory, until we return all of them," he said. "That’s the holy duty of all of us."

    The elimination of Hamas was also a goal, he said, "and that there won't be anything in Gaza that threatens Israel again".

    Test:




    You continue to equate the murder of innocent men, women and children with unfortunate innocent casualties of war.

    You are despicable

    I'm not sure those killed or their relatives would recognise your subtle distinction
    Other people's lives seems cheap to a certain type of right wing ideologue, hence Johnson's "let the bodies pile high" and Sunak's similar statement quoted by Vallance yesterday.

    Likewise some of the generally rightward leaning armchair Generals on here, suggesting that collateral casualties (irrespective of number) are an acceptable feature of conflict, and justifying it by a "well their boys did it to our team on October 7th". It is the heartless language of Hamas. Aren't we, purporting to be from a civilized nation, better than that? I don't know, pick a side.
    The PB Toy Soldiers are the worst thing about this site. They have shifted their toy soldiering from Ukraine to Israel, but the Armchair Generals, as you put it, are largely the same people.
    You may be including me in the armchair general scorn. I don’t think I am. I’d like nothing more for not one more person to die in Gaza. I just think that the easiest way that happens is Hamas releasing ALL the hostages and surrendering. Terrorism ought not prosper.
    Israel is not innocent. The West Bank is a huge issue. But ultimately Israel is surrounded by people who want to wipe it from the face of the earth, and that makes them rather more liable to extreme measures. We would too if France and Ireland wanted to eradicate the U.K. from the face of the Earth, and in living memory had waged war to try to achieve that aim.
    I wasn’t including you, as it happens. I largely agree with the above. Some ludicrous posts tonight though: like that describing @Sunil_Prasannan as “Hamas’ mouthpiece”.
    Maybe Sunil is angling for a job as Head of Palestine Railways when all this is finished.
    I’m sure you are capable of better.
    It's OK, he's trying :)
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 6,051

    Anti-migrant firebrand Geert Wilders leads Dutch polls on eve of knife-edge election
    The hard-Right leader is predicted to win 28 seats, enough to potentially make him Netherlands prime minister

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/11/21/anti-migrant-geert-wilders-leads-netherlands-polls-election/

    Blimey. Italy. Maybe Holland. France to come?
  • HYUFD said:

    Nobody doubts that circa 10,000 Palestinians and many children have died.

    It’s truly ghastly to dismiss it all as Hamas propaganda, even if you believe Israel’s campaign can be justified.

    It is but Neyanyahu has made clear tonight the war will continue until Hamas are destroyed, even if the hostages are released
    "We need to destroy Gaza to save it!"
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368

    How many Hamas savages should survive this attack to save the innocents?

    What a ridiculous post.

    What about those Hamas Generals living the life of Riley in Doha penthouses? How many British ex-pats are you prepared to sacrifice by launching rockets at the condominiums they share with those Hamas leaders?
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298

    Anti-migrant firebrand Geert Wilders leads Dutch polls on eve of knife-edge election
    The hard-Right leader is predicted to win 28 seats, enough to potentially make him Netherlands prime minister

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/11/21/anti-migrant-geert-wilders-leads-netherlands-polls-election/

    “Predicted to win”
    “Potentially make him”
    “telegraph.co.uk”
  • Hmmm....

    The world's best cities for 2024 have been revealed and it's London that's number one followed by Paris and New York.

    That's according to an annual report by Resonance Consultancy, which ranks the top 100 from 270-plus cities with populations of more than one million.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/article-12774333/The-best-100-cities-planet-ranked-despite-Brexit-London-thats-No-1-followed-Paris-New-York-does-favourite-city-come-list.html

    Wait I thought the Daily Mail hated London.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,307

    Cyclefree said:

    Jug ears can't help himself...funny how he lost access to his twitter account for a few days around 7th October.

    Gary Lineker has endorsed a video by journalist Owen Jones in which an academic accuses Israel of “genocide” and dismisses comparisons between Hamas and the Nazis.

    The Match of the Day presenter shared a tweet by Mr Jones, a columnist with the Guardian, of his interview with Raz Segal, an Israeli-American historian, and he added the caption: “Worth 13 minutes of anyone’s time.”

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/11/21/bbc-lineker-israel-hamas-textbook-genocide-raz-segal/

    What's the controversy here? That the historian is dangerous and wrong and Jones shouldn't be giving him a platform, or that Jug Ears should just butt out?
    The more interesting point is that the arguments Raz Segal puts forward for why what Israel is doing in Gaza is genocide (and, yes, I have read what he's written) apply equally to what Hamas has done and intends doing. So if, Owen Jones (and others) accepts Segal's arguments then he has to say that both Israel and Hamas are committing genocide.Or neither of them are. But that is not his position. Jones is of course too stupid to understand what he so readily accepts because it accords with his preconceived opinion.
    I don't think either side are committing genocide. To make such claims reduces the concept to a meaningless trigger word. I do believe there are influential elements on both sides who would be happy with committing genocide if they thought they could get away with it but that is not what is happening at the moment.
    I am inclined to agree though it is a while since I looked up the legal definition of the term. I was merely setting out what Segal is arguing not confirming whether he is right or not. I am not sure he is the right authority for that.
  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,976

    Endillion said:

    Endillion said:

    Roger said:

    Netanyahu says war will continue after hostages released

    Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has said that Israel will continue its war against Hamas "until we achieve all our goals".

    In a video statement recorded before the cabinet met to discuss a possible hostage deal, he said "nonsense" was being spoken to the effect that the war would be stopped once the hostages were released.

    Netanyahu described the hostages' return as a "sacred and top goal".

    "In war there are phases and in returning the hostages there are phases but we will not stop until we have total victory, until we return all of them," he said. "That’s the holy duty of all of us."

    The elimination of Hamas was also a goal, he said, "and that there won't be anything in Gaza that threatens Israel again".

    Test:




    You continue to equate the murder of innocent men, women and children with unfortunate innocent casualties of war.

    You are despicable

    Excel's telling me that 91% of the victims of this war are Gazans.
    It is not a war it is a slaughter.
    Typically, under such circumstances, the side that's losing surrenders. You don't seem very keen on that, for some reason.
    Hamas are a death cult, they don't give a f*** either way. Not for. Israelis, not for Gazans.

    I don't know who wrote that post for you, but tell them from me, they are not the sharpest tool in the box.
    Hamas are a "death cult" who "don't give a f*** either way" about human life, including the people they are supposed to be governing...

    ... and therefore, what, exactly? Everyone should just leave them alone forever?
    Who suggested leaving Hamas alone forever? It certainly wasn't me. However, the price for eradicating Hamas, shouldn't be the eradication of ten thousand, or a hundred thousand , or a million Palestinian women and children.
    Obviously it "shouldn't". We do not, however, live in a perfect world.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,987
    edited November 2023

    Anti-migrant firebrand Geert Wilders leads Dutch polls on eve of knife-edge election
    The hard-Right leader is predicted to win 28 seats, enough to potentially make him Netherlands prime minister

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/11/21/anti-migrant-geert-wilders-leads-netherlands-polls-election/

    “Predicted to win”
    “Potentially make him”
    “telegraph.co.uk”
    The predicted to win is based on latest polling. I am not sure what your issue is with that?
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 6,051
    edited November 2023

    Anti-migrant firebrand Geert Wilders leads Dutch polls on eve of knife-edge election
    The hard-Right leader is predicted to win 28 seats, enough to potentially make him Netherlands prime minister

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/11/21/anti-migrant-geert-wilders-leads-netherlands-polls-election/

    “Predicted to win”
    “Potentially make him”
    “telegraph.co.uk”
    Have a Google. It stands up. He won’t be PM, of course. You’re right about that.

    https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/19/far-right-party-for-freedom-gaining-in-polls-ahead-of-netherlands-election

    https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/dutch-candidates-snipe-scramble-undecided-voters-race-deliver-pm-2023-11-21/
  • Some people on here have a bizarrely weird obsession with Gary Lineker.

    What always amazes me is how many on here are simultaneously obsessed with him and unable to spell his name.
  • Roger said:

    Netanyahu says war will continue after hostages released

    Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has said that Israel will continue its war against Hamas "until we achieve all our goals".

    In a video statement recorded before the cabinet met to discuss a possible hostage deal, he said "nonsense" was being spoken to the effect that the war would be stopped once the hostages were released.

    Netanyahu described the hostages' return as a "sacred and top goal".

    "In war there are phases and in returning the hostages there are phases but we will not stop until we have total victory, until we return all of them," he said. "That’s the holy duty of all of us."

    The elimination of Hamas was also a goal, he said, "and that there won't be anything in Gaza that threatens Israel again".

    Test:




    You continue to equate the murder of innocent men, women and children with unfortunate innocent casualties of war.

    You are despicable

    I'm not sure those killed or their relatives would recognise your subtle distinction
    Other people's lives seems cheap to a certain type of right wing ideologue, hence Johnson's "let the bodies pile high" and Sunak's similar statement quoted by Vallance yesterday.

    Likewise some of the generally rightward leaning armchair Generals on here, suggesting that collateral casualties (irrespective of number) are an acceptable feature of conflict, and justifying it by a "well their boys did it to our team on October 7th". It is the heartless language of Hamas. Aren't we, purporting to be from a civilized nation, better than that? I don't know, pick a side.
    The PB Toy Soldiers are the worst thing about this site. They have shifted their toy soldiering from Ukraine to Israel, but the Armchair Generals, as you put it, are largely the same people.
    You may be including me in the armchair general scorn. I don’t think I am. I’d like nothing more for not one more person to die in Gaza. I just think that the easiest way that happens is Hamas releasing ALL the hostages and surrendering. Terrorism ought not prosper.
    Israel is not innocent. The West Bank is a huge issue. But ultimately Israel is surrounded by people who want to wipe it from the face of the earth, and that makes them rather more liable to extreme measures. We would too if France and Ireland wanted to eradicate the U.K. from the face of the Earth, and in living memory had waged war to try to achieve that aim.
    I wasn’t including you, as it happens. I largely agree with the above. Some ludicrous posts tonight though: like that describing @Sunil_Prasannan as “Hamas’ mouthpiece”.
    Maybe Sunil is angling for a job as Head of Palestine Railways when all this is finished.
    I’m sure you are capable of better.
    Probably but it is past 10pm and I am sure Sunil would actually do a very good job if he was the Head.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,987
    edited November 2023

    Hmmm....

    The world's best cities for 2024 have been revealed and it's London that's number one followed by Paris and New York.

    That's according to an annual report by Resonance Consultancy, which ranks the top 100 from 270-plus cities with populations of more than one million.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/article-12774333/The-best-100-cities-planet-ranked-despite-Brexit-London-thats-No-1-followed-Paris-New-York-does-favourite-city-come-list.html

    Wait I thought the Daily Mail hated London.
    The Mail like clicks....as I guess do the consultancy firm behind the "research". Some interesting choices, sorry results of close and careful data analytics.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,375
    I don't believe anything Hamas says.
    I don't believe anything the IDF says either.

    But most of all, I don't believe a word of the random tweets people on here link to from profoundly biased accounts claiming this, that, or the other.

    It's never been a better time for high-quality, on-the-spot, objective journalism. But that's virtually impossible in the heart of Gaza at the moment. So despite all claims to the contrary, we're pretty clueless as to what's going on.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,075
    edited November 2023

    Hmmm....

    The world's best cities for 2024 have been revealed and it's London that's number one followed by Paris and New York.

    That's according to an annual report by Resonance Consultancy, which ranks the top 100 from 270-plus cities with populations of more than one million.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/article-12774333/The-best-100-cities-planet-ranked-despite-Brexit-London-thats-No-1-followed-Paris-New-York-does-favourite-city-come-list.html

    I assuming its judging by urban conurbation or something as I could swear lots of those cities do not contain a million people.

    Remarkably, Resonance Consultancy do not list themselves having an office in London (New York, Vancouver, Montreal, Singapore though).
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,485

    Some people on here have a bizarrely weird obsession with Gary Lineker.

    What always amazes me is how many on here are simultaneously obsessed with him and unable to spell his name.
    Sir Keir “Kier” Starmer suffers under the same paradox
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,987
    edited November 2023

    I don't believe anything Hamas says.
    I don't believe anything the IDF says either.

    But most of all, I don't believe a word of the random tweets people on here link to from profoundly biased accounts claiming this, that, or the other.

    It's never been a better time for high-quality, on-the-spot, objective journalism. But that's virtually impossible in the heart of Gaza at the moment. So despite all claims to the contrary, we're pretty clueless as to what's going on.

    A big loss from this kind of journalism is when Vice actually did on the ground reporting and not making endless clickbait videos about taking drugs and trans inclusion.

    They had 2-3 very brave reporters who were regularly on the front lines in places like Syria and Iraq.
  • BlancheLivermoreBlancheLivermore Posts: 5,911
    edited November 2023

    Roger said:

    Netanyahu says war will continue after hostages released

    Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has said that Israel will continue its war against Hamas "until we achieve all our goals".

    In a video statement recorded before the cabinet met to discuss a possible hostage deal, he said "nonsense" was being spoken to the effect that the war would be stopped once the hostages were released.

    Netanyahu described the hostages' return as a "sacred and top goal".

    "In war there are phases and in returning the hostages there are phases but we will not stop until we have total victory, until we return all of them," he said. "That’s the holy duty of all of us."

    The elimination of Hamas was also a goal, he said, "and that there won't be anything in Gaza that threatens Israel again".

    Test:




    You continue to equate the murder of innocent men, women and children with unfortunate innocent casualties of war.

    You are despicable

    I'm not sure those killed or their relatives would recognise your subtle distinction
    Other people's lives seems cheap to a certain type of right wing ideologue, hence Johnson's "let the bodies pile high" and Sunak's similar statement quoted by Vallance yesterday.

    Likewise some of the generally rightward leaning armchair Generals on here, suggesting that collateral casualties (irrespective of number) are an acceptable feature of conflict, and justifying it by a "well their boys did it to our team on October 7th". It is the heartless language of Hamas. Aren't we, purporting to be from a civilized nation, better than that? I don't know, pick a side.
    The PB Toy Soldiers are the worst thing about this site. They have shifted their toy soldiering from Ukraine to Israel, but the Armchair Generals, as you put it, are largely the same people.
    You as self appointed chief commentator of what is wrong with PB is one of the worst things on PB
  • Roger said:

    Netanyahu says war will continue after hostages released

    Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has said that Israel will continue its war against Hamas "until we achieve all our goals".

    In a video statement recorded before the cabinet met to discuss a possible hostage deal, he said "nonsense" was being spoken to the effect that the war would be stopped once the hostages were released.

    Netanyahu described the hostages' return as a "sacred and top goal".

    "In war there are phases and in returning the hostages there are phases but we will not stop until we have total victory, until we return all of them," he said. "That’s the holy duty of all of us."

    The elimination of Hamas was also a goal, he said, "and that there won't be anything in Gaza that threatens Israel again".

    Test:




    You continue to equate the murder of innocent men, women and children with unfortunate innocent casualties of war.

    You are despicable

    I'm not sure those killed or their relatives would recognise your subtle distinction
    Other people's lives seems cheap to a certain type of right wing ideologue, hence Johnson's "let the bodies pile high" and Sunak's similar statement quoted by Vallance yesterday.

    Likewise some of the generally rightward leaning armchair Generals on here, suggesting that collateral casualties (irrespective of number) are an acceptable feature of conflict, and justifying it by a "well their boys did it to our team on October 7th". It is the heartless language of Hamas. Aren't we, purporting to be from a civilized nation, better than that? I don't know, pick a side.
    The PB Toy Soldiers are the worst thing about this site. They have shifted their toy soldiering from Ukraine to Israel, but the Armchair Generals, as you put it, are largely the same people.
    You may be including me in the armchair general scorn. I don’t think I am. I’d like nothing more for not one more person to die in Gaza. I just think that the easiest way that happens is Hamas releasing ALL the hostages and surrendering. Terrorism ought not prosper.
    Israel is not innocent. The West Bank is a huge issue. But ultimately Israel is surrounded by people who want to wipe it from the face of the earth, and that makes them rather more liable to extreme measures. We would too if France and Ireland wanted to eradicate the U.K. from the face of the Earth, and in living memory had waged war to try to achieve that aim.
    I wasn’t including you, as it happens. I largely agree with the above. Some ludicrous posts tonight though: like that describing @Sunil_Prasannan as “Hamas’ mouthpiece”.
    Maybe Sunil is angling for a job as Head of Palestine Railways when all this is finished.
    I’m sure you are capable of better.
    Probably but it is past 10pm and I am sure Sunil would actually do a very good job if he was the Head.
    Flattery will get you nowhere!

    Anyway:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine_Railways
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,248

    Sean_F said:

    “Toy soldiers” are those posters who think that the West should provide military aid to Ukraine, rather than piously quoting Gandhi, and wringing their hands about how awful it all is.

    I well recall the Proper People intoning that arming the opponents of the Serbs in the Yugoslav Wars was “just levelling the killing fields”

    The job of the Croats and Bosnians was to die in picturesque style for the cover of Time magazine.

    And they should shut up and get on with it.

    While their betters tried giving the Serbs a better slice of the pie - so what if they broken 10 agreements? The 11th would do the trick…
    Sorry, are the Bosnian factions actually killing each other 28 years on?
    No, they aren’t.

    Because the US, under Clinton, told Lord Douglas Turd and chums to do one. They armed the opponents of the Serbs. Who then defeated the Serbs quite comprehensively, albeit with rather a lot of American assistance.

    The situation since then has been fairly stable, partly because (especially after Kosovo), everyone is convinced that if they sneeze in a slightly ethically-cleansing-kind-of-fashion, a B2 bomber will drop a 2,000lb bomb on their head.
  • Looks like it's going to be a 1% cut in employee NI tomorrow. Will be for the 'regular' rate from 12 to 11%. The 2% rate on earnings over £50,270pa unlikely to change.

    Nothing on personal allowances.

    Consistent with the 'pro work' message along with the minimum wage increase.
  • Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Jug ears can't help himself...funny how he lost access to his twitter account for a few days around 7th October.

    Gary Lineker has endorsed a video by journalist Owen Jones in which an academic accuses Israel of “genocide” and dismisses comparisons between Hamas and the Nazis.

    The Match of the Day presenter shared a tweet by Mr Jones, a columnist with the Guardian, of his interview with Raz Segal, an Israeli-American historian, and he added the caption: “Worth 13 minutes of anyone’s time.”

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/11/21/bbc-lineker-israel-hamas-textbook-genocide-raz-segal/

    What's the controversy here? That the historian is dangerous and wrong and Jones shouldn't be giving him a platform, or that Jug Ears should just butt out?
    The more interesting point is that the arguments Raz Segal puts forward for why what Israel is doing in Gaza is genocide (and, yes, I have read what he's written) apply equally to what Hamas has done and intends doing. So if, Owen Jones (and others) accepts Segal's arguments then he has to say that both Israel and Hamas are committing genocide.Or neither of them are. But that is not his position. Jones is of course too stupid to understand what he so readily accepts because it accords with his preconceived opinion.
    Can you commit genocide by intention alone?
    That is one of Segal's contentions. He quotes what an Israeli politician says they want to do as evidence of "genocide". If that is so for the goose, it is so for the gander.
    I suppose his point is that Israel is in the process of committing genocide, as evinced by its government's stated aims and the actions of its military. Whether they've reached that point yet is up for debate. Will they revise these aims and stop short? I suppose that's where the morality of it all will ultimately hinge.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,075

    I don't believe anything Hamas says.
    I don't believe anything the IDF says either.

    But most of all, I don't believe a word of the random tweets people on here link to from profoundly biased accounts claiming this, that, or the other.

    It's never been a better time for high-quality, on-the-spot, objective journalism. But that's virtually impossible in the heart of Gaza at the moment. So despite all claims to the contrary, we're pretty clueless as to what's going on.

    A big loss from this kind of journalism is when Vice actually did on the ground reporting and not making endless clickbait videos about taking drugs and trans inclusion.

    They had 2-3 very brave reporters who were regularly on the front lines in places like Syria and Iraq.
    Unfortunately I don't think I ever saw any of their output, so the only mental picture of Vice News I have is off a sketch joking about how they come up with article ideas with a guy throwing stuff at a wall.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ia7fUQXskvA
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 6,051

    Sean_F said:

    “Toy soldiers” are those posters who think that the West should provide military aid to Ukraine, rather than piously quoting Gandhi, and wringing their hands about how awful it all is.

    I well recall the Proper People intoning that arming the opponents of the Serbs in the Yugoslav Wars was “just levelling the killing fields”

    The job of the Croats and Bosnians was to die in picturesque style for the cover of Time magazine.

    And they should shut up and get on with it.

    While their betters tried giving the Serbs a better slice of the pie - so what if they broken 10 agreements? The 11th would do the trick…
    Sorry, are the Bosnian factions actually killing each other 28 years on?
    No, they aren’t.

    Because the US, under Clinton, told Lord Douglas Turd and chums to do one. They armed the opponents of the Serbs. Who then defeated the Serbs quite comprehensively, albeit with rather a lot of American assistance.

    The situation since then has been fairly stable, partly because (especially after Kosovo), everyone is convinced that if they sneeze in a slightly ethically-cleansing-kind-of-fashion, a B2 bomber will drop a 2,000lb bomb on their head.
    E.g. The Serb troop build up that wasn’t, a few weeks back. NATO stirred and they backed down.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,248

    Roger said:

    Netanyahu says war will continue after hostages released

    Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has said that Israel will continue its war against Hamas "until we achieve all our goals".

    In a video statement recorded before the cabinet met to discuss a possible hostage deal, he said "nonsense" was being spoken to the effect that the war would be stopped once the hostages were released.

    Netanyahu described the hostages' return as a "sacred and top goal".

    "In war there are phases and in returning the hostages there are phases but we will not stop until we have total victory, until we return all of them," he said. "That’s the holy duty of all of us."

    The elimination of Hamas was also a goal, he said, "and that there won't be anything in Gaza that threatens Israel again".

    Test:




    You continue to equate the murder of innocent men, women and children with unfortunate innocent casualties of war.

    You are despicable

    I'm not sure those killed or their relatives would recognise your subtle distinction
    Other people's lives seems cheap to a certain type of right wing ideologue, hence Johnson's "let the bodies pile high" and Sunak's similar statement quoted by Vallance yesterday.

    Likewise some of the generally rightward leaning armchair Generals on here, suggesting that collateral casualties (irrespective of number) are an acceptable feature of conflict, and justifying it by a "well their boys did it to our team on October 7th". It is the heartless language of Hamas. Aren't we, purporting to be from a civilized nation, better than that? I don't know, pick a side.
    The PB Toy Soldiers are the worst thing about this site. They have shifted their toy soldiering from Ukraine to Israel, but the Armchair Generals, as you put it, are largely the same people.
    You may be including me in the armchair general scorn. I don’t think I am. I’d like nothing more for not one more person to die in Gaza. I just think that the easiest way that happens is Hamas releasing ALL the hostages and surrendering. Terrorism ought not prosper.
    Israel is not innocent. The West Bank is a huge issue. But ultimately Israel is surrounded by people who want to wipe it from the face of the earth, and that makes them rather more liable to extreme measures. We would too if France and Ireland wanted to eradicate the U.K. from the face of the Earth, and in living memory had waged war to try to achieve that aim.
    I wasn’t including you, as it happens. I largely agree with the above. Some ludicrous posts tonight though: like that describing @Sunil_Prasannan as “Hamas’ mouthpiece”.
    Maybe Sunil is angling for a job as Head of Palestine Railways when all this is finished.
    Unfortunately the IDF have probably demolished the Gaza Metro :grimace:
    Wasn't there a metro stop under that hospital? Maybe that is what the Israelis found. Access wasn't exactly disabled friendly though.
    Maybe TfL were involved, I dunno :confused:
    “146 million dollars for an elevator for the bunker!!!!!?”

    “Well, there’s lots of existing works to tunnel round, and we can only do 1 hour of work a night, since we have to wait for 3 hours after the last suicide bomber goes out before we can start. And we have to stop 3 hours before the morning shift goes out. And the parts and labour….”
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,485
    ….
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,987
    edited November 2023
    kle4 said:

    I don't believe anything Hamas says.
    I don't believe anything the IDF says either.

    But most of all, I don't believe a word of the random tweets people on here link to from profoundly biased accounts claiming this, that, or the other.

    It's never been a better time for high-quality, on-the-spot, objective journalism. But that's virtually impossible in the heart of Gaza at the moment. So despite all claims to the contrary, we're pretty clueless as to what's going on.

    A big loss from this kind of journalism is when Vice actually did on the ground reporting and not making endless clickbait videos about taking drugs and trans inclusion.

    They had 2-3 very brave reporters who were regularly on the front lines in places like Syria and Iraq.
    Unfortunately I don't think I ever saw any of their output, so the only mental picture of Vice News I have is off a sketch joking about how they come up with article ideas with a guy throwing stuff at a wall.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ia7fUQXskvA
    This kind of stuff,

    Controlling the Capital of the Syrian Revolution: Ghosts of Aleppo
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LwSnyQYy5SE
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368
    Endillion said:

    Endillion said:

    Endillion said:

    Roger said:

    Netanyahu says war will continue after hostages released

    Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has said that Israel will continue its war against Hamas "until we achieve all our goals".

    In a video statement recorded before the cabinet met to discuss a possible hostage deal, he said "nonsense" was being spoken to the effect that the war would be stopped once the hostages were released.

    Netanyahu described the hostages' return as a "sacred and top goal".

    "In war there are phases and in returning the hostages there are phases but we will not stop until we have total victory, until we return all of them," he said. "That’s the holy duty of all of us."

    The elimination of Hamas was also a goal, he said, "and that there won't be anything in Gaza that threatens Israel again".

    Test:




    You continue to equate the murder of innocent men, women and children with unfortunate innocent casualties of war.

    You are despicable

    Excel's telling me that 91% of the victims of this war are Gazans.
    It is not a war it is a slaughter.
    Typically, under such circumstances, the side that's losing surrenders. You don't seem very keen on that, for some reason.
    Hamas are a death cult, they don't give a f*** either way. Not for. Israelis, not for Gazans.

    I don't know who wrote that post for you, but tell them from me, they are not the sharpest tool in the box.
    Hamas are a "death cult" who "don't give a f*** either way" about human life, including the people they are supposed to be governing...

    ... and therefore, what, exactly? Everyone should just leave them alone forever?
    Who suggested leaving Hamas alone forever? It certainly wasn't me. However, the price for eradicating Hamas, shouldn't be the eradication of ten thousand, or a hundred thousand , or a million Palestinian women and children.
    Obviously it "shouldn't". We do not, however, live in a perfect world.
    So how many collateral casualties are you comfortable with?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,248

    Hmmm....

    The world's best cities for 2024 have been revealed and it's London that's number one followed by Paris and New York.

    That's according to an annual report by Resonance Consultancy, which ranks the top 100 from 270-plus cities with populations of more than one million.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/article-12774333/The-best-100-cities-planet-ranked-despite-Brexit-London-thats-No-1-followed-Paris-New-York-does-favourite-city-come-list.html

    Wait I thought the Daily Mail hated London.
    My brother against my cousin
    My cousin against my village
    My village against….
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,413

    Roger said:

    Netanyahu says war will continue after hostages released

    Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has said that Israel will continue its war against Hamas "until we achieve all our goals".

    In a video statement recorded before the cabinet met to discuss a possible hostage deal, he said "nonsense" was being spoken to the effect that the war would be stopped once the hostages were released.

    Netanyahu described the hostages' return as a "sacred and top goal".

    "In war there are phases and in returning the hostages there are phases but we will not stop until we have total victory, until we return all of them," he said. "That’s the holy duty of all of us."

    The elimination of Hamas was also a goal, he said, "and that there won't be anything in Gaza that threatens Israel again".

    Test:




    You continue to equate the murder of innocent men, women and children with unfortunate innocent casualties of war.

    You are despicable

    I'm not sure those killed or their relatives would recognise your subtle distinction
    Other people's lives seems cheap to a certain type of right wing ideologue, hence Johnson's "let the bodies pile high" and Sunak's similar statement quoted by Vallance yesterday.

    Likewise some of the generally rightward leaning armchair Generals on here, suggesting that collateral casualties (irrespective of number) are an acceptable feature of conflict, and justifying it by a "well their boys did it to our team on October 7th". It is the heartless language of Hamas. Aren't we, purporting to be from a civilized nation, better than that? I don't know, pick a side.
    The PB Toy Soldiers are the worst thing about this site. They have shifted their toy soldiering from Ukraine to Israel, but the Armchair Generals, as you put it, are largely the same people.
    Their seamless transition from thinking killing thousands of civilians with shells and bombs and missiles is a war crime to stating it's entirely justified is a wonder to behold. Maybe it's the proximity to the road to Damascus for the second barrage that's caused a change of heart.
    Their stomach for blowing bits off hospitals has certainly improved.
  • How many Hamas savages should survive this attack to save the innocents?

    What a ridiculous post.

    What about those Hamas Generals living the life of Riley in Doha penthouses? How many British ex-pats are you prepared to sacrifice by launching rockets at the condominiums they share with those Hamas leaders?
    They will be assassinated

    How many Hamas savages do you want to spare?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,248
    biggles said:

    Sean_F said:

    “Toy soldiers” are those posters who think that the West should provide military aid to Ukraine, rather than piously quoting Gandhi, and wringing their hands about how awful it all is.

    I well recall the Proper People intoning that arming the opponents of the Serbs in the Yugoslav Wars was “just levelling the killing fields”

    The job of the Croats and Bosnians was to die in picturesque style for the cover of Time magazine.

    And they should shut up and get on with it.

    While their betters tried giving the Serbs a better slice of the pie - so what if they broken 10 agreements? The 11th would do the trick…
    Sorry, are the Bosnian factions actually killing each other 28 years on?
    No, they aren’t.

    Because the US, under Clinton, told Lord Douglas Turd and chums to do one. They armed the opponents of the Serbs. Who then defeated the Serbs quite comprehensively, albeit with rather a lot of American assistance.

    The situation since then has been fairly stable, partly because (especially after Kosovo), everyone is convinced that if they sneeze in a slightly ethically-cleansing-kind-of-fashion, a B2 bomber will drop a 2,000lb bomb on their head.
    E.g. The Serb troop build up that wasn’t, a few weeks back. NATO stirred and they backed down.
    Yup.
  • I don't believe anything Hamas says.
    I don't believe anything the IDF says either.

    But most of all, I don't believe a word of the random tweets people on here link to from profoundly biased accounts claiming this, that, or the other.

    It's never been a better time for high-quality, on-the-spot, objective journalism. But that's virtually impossible in the heart of Gaza at the moment. So despite all claims to the contrary, we're pretty clueless as to what's going on.

    Sad to see on the BBC this evening that the Israelis are apparently making a point of targetting such 'on the ground' journalists on Southern Lebanon and dropping missiles on them.
  • Sean_F said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Net migration going to come in around 700,000 people apparently. Now I know we do need immigration as a TFR < 2.2 & aging society but it seems a huge number.

    Migration is the only thing delivering anaemic growth.
    Without it, the UK would be in recession already.
    If immigration is delivering growth - but GDP *per head* isn't rising... Then you'd have a situation where people think the economy is in recession, personally, but the headline would say....

    Yes.
    Weirdly, overall population is only rising by about 200,000 a year. We know that deaths don't exceed births, so the only other explanation is that emigration is heavily undercounted.
    If you look at births and deaths they are more or less equal now (deaths>births in 2020, births>deaths in 2021), and based on trends in both (deaths trending up, births trending down) I'd imagine that we are moving into a situation where deaths do exceed births in the future. How depressing!
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,375

    I don't believe anything Hamas says.
    I don't believe anything the IDF says either.

    But most of all, I don't believe a word of the random tweets people on here link to from profoundly biased accounts claiming this, that, or the other.

    It's never been a better time for high-quality, on-the-spot, objective journalism. But that's virtually impossible in the heart of Gaza at the moment. So despite all claims to the contrary, we're pretty clueless as to what's going on.

    Sad to see on the BBC this evening that the Israelis are apparently making a point of targetting such 'on the ground' journalists on Southern Lebanon and dropping missiles on them.
    Despite all the flak they get, the BBC's reporting on the Middle East is pretty good. Jeremy Bowen is usually excellent.
  • How many Hamas savages should survive this attack to save the innocents?

    What a ridiculous post.

    What about those Hamas Generals living the life of Riley in Doha penthouses? How many British ex-pats are you prepared to sacrifice by launching rockets at the condominiums they share with those Hamas leaders?
    They will be assassinated

    How many Hamas savages do you want to spare?
    Personally I would much rather the Israelis concentrated on doing this than dropping bombs on bits of rubble in Gaza. At least then they would know they were actually killing the guilty rather than just hoping they hit them amongst the mass of civilians.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,908

    Sean_F said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Net migration going to come in around 700,000 people apparently. Now I know we do need immigration as a TFR < 2.2 & aging society but it seems a huge number.

    Migration is the only thing delivering anaemic growth.
    Without it, the UK would be in recession already.
    If immigration is delivering growth - but GDP *per head* isn't rising... Then you'd have a situation where people think the economy is in recession, personally, but the headline would say....

    Yes.
    Weirdly, overall population is only rising by about 200,000 a year. We know that deaths don't exceed births, so the only other explanation is that emigration is heavily undercounted.
    If you look at births and deaths they are more or less equal now (deaths>births in 2020, births>deaths in 2021), and based on trends in both (deaths trending up, births trending down) I'd imagine that we are moving into a situation where deaths do exceed births in the future. How depressing!
    Well birth rate is well below replacement level, so not that surprising
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,987
    edited November 2023

    I don't believe anything Hamas says.
    I don't believe anything the IDF says either.

    But most of all, I don't believe a word of the random tweets people on here link to from profoundly biased accounts claiming this, that, or the other.

    It's never been a better time for high-quality, on-the-spot, objective journalism. But that's virtually impossible in the heart of Gaza at the moment. So despite all claims to the contrary, we're pretty clueless as to what's going on.

    Sad to see on the BBC this evening that the Israelis are apparently making a point of targetting such 'on the ground' journalists on Southern Lebanon and dropping missiles on them.
    Despite all the flak they get, the BBC's reporting on the Middle East is pretty good. Jeremy Bowen is usually excellent.
    Spits out coffee.....the bloke who only the other day prattling on about well all those guns, grenades, explosives at the hospital, standard in the middle east for security guards to have them...nothing to see...move along.

    Oh, well there is a big tunnel, and oh there is a blast door at the end of it...what the Israelis have opened it and it leads to lots of other things...must be the security guards break room.
  • When did hiding behind civilians become a war crime that can be ignored?
This discussion has been closed.