In addition, you can guarantee that none of these people will come onto the streets to protest Russia, when Russia starts its winter missile campaign against Ukraine's power and civil infrastructures.
If our government was supporting Russia's atrocities you might see more of that.
We're giving hundreds of millions to Pakistan as it expels refugees to a destitute theocracy.
Well that's foreign aid for you. It's a complex area. But what has this got to do with whether people here hit the streets or not to protest Putin's war on Ukraine?
I'm not aware of anyone in this country protesting about Pakistan's treatment of refugees.
Given the number of people in this country with a Pakistani or Afghan background compared with those of a Palestinian background the difference is blatant.
What I find curious is why you are so unwilling to acknowledge that so much of the anti-Israeli feeling is driven by antisemitism.
Its tolerance of antisemitism which allows it to thrive.
From 2018:
Anti-Semitic stereotypes are alive and well in Europe, while the memory of the Holocaust is starting to fade, a sweeping new survey by CNN reveals. More than a quarter of Europeans polled believe Jews have too much influence in business and finance. Nearly one in four said Jews have too much influence in conflict and wars across the world.
One in five said they have too much influence in the media and the same number believe they have too much influence in politics.
A new survey measuring antisemitic attitudes across Europe from ADL (Anti-Defamation League) found that some of the most stubborn anti-Jewish tropes remain deeply entrenched in 10 European countries, with roughly one in four people harboring extensive classic antisemitic beliefs.
Is it possible to get bored of appalling atrocities?
I think so
Every day I see Gazans dying on TV and online and I confess I start to shrug. I think you become inured. It’s awful but it’s human nature: it is impossible to maintain a state of perpetual and high pitched outrage
I’ve been read frank Dikotter’s excellent history of the Cultural Revolution and he describes a 16 year old girl told to beat her teacher to a bloody pulp. At first she was horrified and could barely look let alone join in
Within a week she saw so much she would do it - beat the teachers (sometimes to death) - never with happiness - always with some distaste. But mainly a bored shrug. She became inured
It was no longer horrifying just meh
Yes, violence is something that damages both victim and perpetrator, and repeated violence brings moral peril. It becomes normalised to the point that cutting off the power to a neonatal unit becomes a legitimate act of war.
I get that; but the question comes as to why some acts caused tens of thousands to come out onto the streets, whereas others are ignored?
Russia has had a deliberate policy of attacking hospitals (and power infrastructure) in Syria and Ukraine. Yet there was silence from many of those protesting so vociferously now. In fact, many would have been in the "Ukraine must give in for peace!" grouping. They're not saying that about the Palestinians, are they?
Interestingly though the anti-Israel mentality seems to be increasing in the West while fading in the Arab world.
Yes why *is* Israel given so much slack by the west (esp the UK and US) on its behaviour towards the Palestinians?
You should still tell us, imo, even if you think we all know. Because maybe not everyone does.
Simple: because we remember what happened eighty years ago, and realise that Hamas, and other actors in the region such as Iran, would be very happy if the same thing happened again.
I fear some people in the west would also be quite glad if the same thing happened again...
I believe Bibi feels he needs a big body count in both Gaza and the West Bank and any remaining Palestinians including those residing in Israel will be exiled for good measure. It resolves his problem longer term to insulate Israel from harm, and cement his place in Jewish history.
If the body count through whatever means, war, pestilence or starvation reaches seven figures, does Bibi enter the history books as the ultimate freedom fighter or a tyrant?
The Holocaust was a stain on humanity, but if certain people are not careful this could be another. And Bibi is capable of unquestionable evil in executing his justified eradication of Hamas.
It is amusing to see all the posts about Labour being likely assured third terms. Many, including me, thought the Tories were assured a fifth after 2019, or at least a HP scenario in the worst case. Look at it now.
2034 is a long way off. The world could be a very different place by then.
Nobody could have predicted the events that have occurred since 2007, so why predict the rest of the 2020’s.
I think Labour will win pretty easily, but we’ve no idea how they’ll behave in office or what events might blow them off course.
The most significant comment recently was Wes Streeting saying we can’t keep pouring money into the NHS. It’s not a criticism of the NHS to say he’s correct. Governments will have to get used to saying “No”, as the population ages, but that won’t please people.
The Government has been saying “no” for years. I’m unclear why you put this as a challenge for the future.
Tax cuts should be focused (imo) on energy levies, cutting these would be counterinflationary, whereas income tax cuts would be somewhat inflationary (though I still support that if it's the only thing on offer). I would also like to see the windfall tax be made deductable against investment in additional UK energy production capacity.
I would rather National Insurance be cut than income tax, as this would benefit the working age population more, which I feel is fair. National insurance should wither on the vine as time moves forward - it complicates tax unnecessarily.
In addition, you can guarantee that none of these people will come onto the streets to protest Russia, when Russia starts its winter missile campaign against Ukraine's power and civil infrastructures.
If our government was supporting Russia's atrocities you might see more of that.
We're giving hundreds of millions to Pakistan as it expels refugees to a destitute theocracy.
Well that's foreign aid for you. It's a complex area. But what has this got to do with whether people here hit the streets or not to protest Putin's war on Ukraine?
I'm not aware of anyone in this country protesting about Pakistan's treatment of refugees.
Given the number of people in this country with a Pakistani or Afghan background compared with those of a Palestinian background the difference is blatant.
What I find curious is why you are so unwilling to acknowledge that so much of the anti-Israeli feeling is driven by antisemitism.
Its tolerance of antisemitism which allows it to thrive.
It is sadly in the mix but it's nonsense to make out that antisemitism is the driving force of pro-Palestine sentiment. The reason people do this is to smear and seek to delegitimize those views.
It is amusing to see all the posts about Labour being likely assured third terms. Many, including me, thought the Tories were assured a fifth after 2019, or at least a HP scenario in the worst case. Look at it now.
2034 is a long way off. The world could be a very different place by then.
Nobody could have predicted the events that have occurred since 2007, so why predict the rest of the 2020’s.
I think Labour will win pretty easily, but we’ve no idea how they’ll behave in office or what events might blow them off course.
The most significant comment recently was Wes Streeting saying we can’t keep pouring money into the NHS. It’s not a criticism of the NHS to say he’s correct. Governments will have to get used to saying “No”, as the population ages, but that won’t please people.
It's heresy to say it but we need to admit that we can't forever provide free, unlimited non-palliative healthcare to people who will die in a few days or weeks anyway while for instance mid-life cancer treatment is starved of resources.
We don’t provide free, unlimited non-palliative healthcare to people who will die in a few days or weeks anyway. Nearly everyone in that situation will be receiving palliative care only.
What do you think it is, then? What reason does the 'west' give so much slack towards Israel?
Guilt. And so many people travel between Israel and Western Europe.
I was just listening to a bit in the Ezra Klein Show podcast (where he has been covering things from a left wing Jewish American perspective) where he suggested that attitudes to Israel tend to depend on what Israel was like when they were forming their political views -- so those in Biden's generation who remember the endangered Israel of the 1960s see it differently to those who grew up seeing an Israel that was regionally strong but making serious efforts to come to some peaceful agreement, and people too young to remember anything except Netanyahu's right wing oppressive Israel see it differently again.
Most of those in power in the West are still in the first and second of those two generational groupings.
I'm old enough to remember when Chancellors wouldn't talk to the media for weeks, possibly months, before any Budget or Autumn Financial Statement - purdah it was called.
Now they're continuously babbling about what they might or might not do.
Raising expectations only for them to be dashed in reality.
When did this change happen ? The Gordon Brown era I suspect.
Thats nothing I am old enough to remember when the actions of Conservative Chancellors were owned by themselves rather than shifting the responsibility onto one of Brown, Clegg or Corbyn.
The Conservatives seem to have abandoned the concept of personal responsibility generally.
Which is especially condemnable as they extent the less fortunate to follow it.
and that’s just in Health. Our education system is in an even worse mess because (for example) as a primary school you have to be substandard to be rated good, because of the disastrous curriculum framework Ofsted use.
And our transport system is about to implode due to the infrastructure being totally inadequate and what infrastructure is being built being pared back past reason.
Yet still, somehow, we are spending 100 billion more than we raise in taxes.
Something is fundamentally wrong with this country. It’s no wonder extremist nutcases like Corbyn, Johnson, Farage and Braverman are being listened to.
I wonder how many problems in education would be improved, if not fully solved, by simply abolishing Ofsted?
Some other system of oversight/governance would be necessary (we see now the consequences of Gove’s whizzo idea to not re-inspect schools that had achieved an outstanding) but I dunno how anyone can look at Ofsted and and think ‘yeah, that works fine’.
I think the key problem, and what would work much better than abolition or tinkering with reporting procedures if whoever the Shadow Secretary of State this week is reading PB, is to break it up into much smaller, more focussed agencies.
We don't want to abolish inspections. Schools need to be checked up on because they are important and there are many things that need checking up on. Just as we shouldn't abolish the HSE just because they sometimes say stupid things, or we would literally have carnage in industry.
At the moment it's a bizarre monolith. It inspects schools, at all levels, social services, residential social care, nurseries, PRUs like @dixiedean 's place, local authorities...you name it, it inspects it. The only group it doesn't inspect are private schools registered with HMC, which are inspected by the considerably more useless (yes, I do mean that) ISI.
All of these however are very different beasts, and it is literally madness to have them all done by the same inspectorate using the same criteria. Of course a PRU will always have bad behaviour. That's the whole fucking point of having them. To judge them on the same basis as a girls' grammar school is just bizarre.
Similarly, having taught in primary and secondary they are very, very different beasts. In primary school, the key should really be to teach the children literacy, numeracy and social skills. The rest is basically gravy and should be geared solely to those ends. In fact, some things - e.g. complex scientific theories - shouldn't really be taught at all because almost all the teachers don't understand them very well, so it means hard work undoing misconceptions when you get to secondary. But they're still judged on the same criteria as a secondary. Or a sixth form college. Which is madness.
You also have inspectors swapping between one and another discipline and not understanding these differences because OFSTED under Spielman despite their statutory duty to train their inspectors don't do so. For example, that inspector who won a case for unfair dismissal after he fondled a six year old boy won because he'd never been told OFSTED had a no touching policy. He didn't realise without being told it was wrong to touch schoolchildren for no reason - and still doesn't apparently - because his background was in residential social care where the dynamic's totally different.(continued)
Astonishing that private schools are inspected separately - for one thing, one needs common standards, and for another, there must surely be some scope from learning across the cultural barrier.
One of the (many) issues with Ofsted is that they don't assess schools on "is this a good school?", they assess them on "are they teaching according to the One True Method As Defined By Us"?
So, for example, primary schools have to teach reading via phonics and nothing else - even for kids who don't particularly respond to phonics.
Independent schools have the freedom not to teach in the Government-mandated way. Ofsted would need pretty fundamental change before it started assessing them.
In addition, you can guarantee that none of these people will come onto the streets to protest Russia, when Russia starts its winter missile campaign against Ukraine's power and civil infrastructures.
If our government was supporting Russia's atrocities you might see more of that.
We're giving hundreds of millions to Pakistan as it expels refugees to a destitute theocracy.
Well that's foreign aid for you. It's a complex area. But what has this got to do with whether people here hit the streets or not to protest Putin's war on Ukraine?
I'm not aware of anyone in this country protesting about Pakistan's treatment of refugees.
Given the number of people in this country with a Pakistani or Afghan background compared with those of a Palestinian background the difference is blatant.
What I find curious is why you are so unwilling to acknowledge that so much of the anti-Israeli feeling is driven by antisemitism.
Its tolerance of antisemitism which allows it to thrive.
It is sadly in the mix but it's nonsense to make out that antisemitism is the driving force of pro-Palestine sentiment. The reason people do this is to smear and seek to delegitimize those views.
Then please explain why you and so many others are that much more energised by ten thousand dead Gazans than (for example) the hundreds of thousands killed in Syria since 2013, during a civil war that is still ongoing. To say nothing of the various other ongoing conflicts in the Middle East and around the world.
and that’s just in Health. Our education system is in an even worse mess because (for example) as a primary school you have to be substandard to be rated good, because of the disastrous curriculum framework Ofsted use.
And our transport system is about to implode due to the infrastructure being totally inadequate and what infrastructure is being built being pared back past reason.
Yet still, somehow, we are spending 100 billion more than we raise in taxes.
Something is fundamentally wrong with this country. It’s no wonder extremist nutcases like Corbyn, Johnson, Farage and Braverman are being listened to.
I wonder how many problems in education would be improved, if not fully solved, by simply abolishing Ofsted?
Some other system of oversight/governance would be necessary (we see now the consequences of Gove’s whizzo idea to not re-inspect schools that had achieved an outstanding) but I dunno how anyone can look at Ofsted and and think ‘yeah, that works fine’.
I think the key problem, and what would work much better than abolition or tinkering with reporting procedures if whoever the Shadow Secretary of State this week is reading PB, is to break it up into much smaller, more focussed agencies.
We don't want to abolish inspections. Schools need to be checked up on because they are important and there are many things that need checking up on. Just as we shouldn't abolish the HSE just because they sometimes say stupid things, or we would literally have carnage in industry.
At the moment it's a bizarre monolith. It inspects schools, at all levels, social services, residential social care, nurseries, PRUs like @dixiedean 's place, local authorities...you name it, it inspects it. The only group it doesn't inspect are private schools registered with HMC, which are inspected by the considerably more useless (yes, I do mean that) ISI.
All of these however are very different beasts, and it is literally madness to have them all done by the same inspectorate using the same criteria. Of course a PRU will always have bad behaviour. That's the whole fucking point of having them. To judge them on the same basis as a girls' grammar school is just bizarre.
Similarly, having taught in primary and secondary they are very, very different beasts. In primary school, the key should really be to teach the children literacy, numeracy and social skills. The rest is basically gravy and should be geared solely to those ends. In fact, some things - e.g. complex scientific theories - shouldn't really be taught at all because almost all the teachers don't understand them very well, so it means hard work undoing misconceptions when you get to secondary. But they're still judged on the same criteria as a secondary. Or a sixth form college. Which is madness.
You also have inspectors swapping between one and another discipline and not understanding these differences because OFSTED under Spielman despite their statutory duty to train their inspectors don't do so. For example, that inspector who won a case for unfair dismissal after he fondled a six year old boy won because he'd never been told OFSTED had a no touching policy. He didn't realise without being told it was wrong to touch schoolchildren for no reason - and still doesn't apparently - because his background was in residential social care where the dynamic's totally different.(continued)
Astonishing that private schools are inspected separately - for one thing, one needs common standards, and for another, there must surely be some scope from learning across the cultural barrier.
One of the (many) issues with Ofsted is that they don't assess schools on "is this a good school?", they assess them on "are they teaching according to the One True Method As Defined By Us"?
So, for example, primary schools have to teach reading via phonics and nothing else - even for kids who don't particularly respond to phonics.
Independent schools have the freedom not to teach in the Government-mandated way. Ofsted would need pretty fundamental change before it started assessing them.
It needs pretty fundamental change.
That's separate from the issue of the ISI's existence as a cosy club for its members.
(Incidentally the ISI is also bringing in a new framework now that is closer to OFSTED's dumbarse one. Making you wonder even more what the point of it is.)
I'm old enough to remember when Chancellors wouldn't talk to the media for weeks, possibly months, before any Budget or Autumn Financial Statement - purdah it was called.
Now they're continuously babbling about what they might or might not do.
Raising expectations only for them to be dashed in reality.
When did this change happen ? The Gordon Brown era I suspect.
Thats nothing I am old enough to remember when the actions of Conservative Chancellors were owned by themselves rather than shifting the responsibility onto one of Brown, Clegg or Corbyn.
The Conservatives seem to have abandoned the concept of personal responsibility generally.
Which is especially condemnable as they extent the less fortunate to follow it.
Just look at the obsession with IHT, and much worse still the repetitive argument from our resident Tory that all will be well because you can always inherit from mum and dad, either during or after their demise.
I'm old enough to remember when this would have profoundly shocked the Tory voters amongst my family and acquaintance.
All of a part with the abandonment of the balance of payments as something to worry about.
In addition, you can guarantee that none of these people will come onto the streets to protest Russia, when Russia starts its winter missile campaign against Ukraine's power and civil infrastructures.
If our government was supporting Russia's atrocities you might see more of that.
We're giving hundreds of millions to Pakistan as it expels refugees to a destitute theocracy.
Well that's foreign aid for you. It's a complex area. But what has this got to do with whether people here hit the streets or not to protest Putin's war on Ukraine?
I'm not aware of anyone in this country protesting about Pakistan's treatment of refugees.
Given the number of people in this country with a Pakistani or Afghan background compared with those of a Palestinian background the difference is blatant.
What I find curious is why you are so unwilling to acknowledge that so much of the anti-Israeli feeling is driven by antisemitism.
Its tolerance of antisemitism which allows it to thrive.
It is sadly in the mix but it's nonsense to make out that antisemitism is the driving force of pro-Palestine sentiment. The reason people do this is to smear and seek to delegitimize those views.
If, as polls suggest, at least a quarter of the country is antisemitic then it really is the driving force.
And if a quarter of the country has antisemitic tendencies then it will be much higher in certain groups.
How much antisemitism is there among for example London leftists ? A third ? A half ?
Or is this something which is so dangerous to discover that it must be reflexively denied ?
I'm old enough to remember when Chancellors wouldn't talk to the media for weeks, possibly months, before any Budget or Autumn Financial Statement - purdah it was called.
Now they're continuously babbling about what they might or might not do.
Raising expectations only for them to be dashed in reality.
When did this change happen ? The Gordon Brown era I suspect.
No, Brown was very keen on Purdah, to the point that he annoyed Blair by not discussing the budget with him.
Is it possible to get bored of appalling atrocities?
I think so
Every day I see Gazans dying on TV and online and I confess I start to shrug. I think you become inured. It’s awful but it’s human nature: it is impossible to maintain a state of perpetual and high pitched outrage
I’ve been read frank Dikotter’s excellent history of the Cultural Revolution and he describes a 16 year old girl told to beat her teacher to a bloody pulp. At first she was horrified and could barely look let alone join in
Within a week she saw so much she would do it - beat the teachers (sometimes to death) - never with happiness - always with some distaste. But mainly a bored shrug. She became inured
It was no longer horrifying just meh
Yes, violence is something that damages both victim and perpetrator, and repeated violence brings moral peril. It becomes normalised to the point that cutting off the power to a neonatal unit becomes a legitimate act of war.
I get that; but the question comes as to why some acts caused tens of thousands to come out onto the streets, whereas others are ignored?
Russia has had a deliberate policy of attacking hospitals (and power infrastructure) in Syria and Ukraine. Yet there was silence from many of those protesting so vociferously now. In fact, many would have been in the "Ukraine must give in for peace!" grouping. They're not saying that about the Palestinians, are they?
But we got bored of Ukraine. We will get bored of Gaza. Israel is possibly relying on this
In the end no one is going to intervene. No Arab nation is going to war over Gaza - not even Hezbollah
Israel is going to flatten the place and dare the world to stop it. And most of the world, maybe all of it, will shrug
And label those who don't shrug as antisemites.
The correct label is anti Palestinian
It’s pretty obvious now that half the countries in the Middle East are tacitly cheering on Israel. They want Jerusalem to finish the job. End the problem once and for all
That’s my reading. All the outrage from Muslim leaders is so much confected nonsense. Once Gaza is a smoking ruin Erdogan and Sisi and the rest will be doing deals with Israel once more
Its all part of the powerplay between the Saudis, Iran, Turkey and others.
Iran is happy to fight to the last Sunni Palestinian but wants to keep its Shia Hezbollah vassals unscathed.
I'm old enough to remember when Chancellors wouldn't talk to the media for weeks, possibly months, before any Budget or Autumn Financial Statement - purdah it was called.
Now they're continuously babbling about what they might or might not do.
Raising expectations only for them to be dashed in reality.
When did this change happen ? The Gordon Brown era I suspect.
No, Brown was very keen on Purdah, to the point that he annoyed Blair by not discussing the budget with him.
The rot started more recently.
Osborne was the worst, if not the start.
And most foolish, because he leaked the good stuff in advance so leaving the press only the bad news to print on the following day.
(I think actually Brown did leak budgets, especially after becoming PM, as he couldn't bear the thought of Darling giving away goodies instead. He certainly leaked the cut in VAT.)
I'm old enough to remember when Chancellors wouldn't talk to the media for weeks, possibly months, before any Budget or Autumn Financial Statement - purdah it was called.
Now they're continuously babbling about what they might or might not do.
Raising expectations only for them to be dashed in reality.
When did this change happen ? The Gordon Brown era I suspect.
No, Brown was very keen on Purdah, to the point that he annoyed Blair by not discussing the budget with him.
The rot started more recently.
So the Osborne era.
Brown was IIRC fond of commissioning reports which always recommended doing what he wanted to do.
In addition, you can guarantee that none of these people will come onto the streets to protest Russia, when Russia starts its winter missile campaign against Ukraine's power and civil infrastructures.
If our government was supporting Russia's atrocities you might see more of that.
We're giving hundreds of millions to Pakistan as it expels refugees to a destitute theocracy.
Well that's foreign aid for you. It's a complex area. But what has this got to do with whether people here hit the streets or not to protest Putin's war on Ukraine?
The difference is that there are vocal groups here siding with both Israel and Palestine. There simply is no significant group cheering on Russia. Also most Britons support Ukraine, as does our government, so why would people take to the streets?
I'm old enough to remember when Chancellors wouldn't talk to the media for weeks, possibly months, before any Budget or Autumn Financial Statement - purdah it was called.
Now they're continuously babbling about what they might or might not do.
Raising expectations only for them to be dashed in reality.
When did this change happen ? The Gordon Brown era I suspect.
No, Brown was very keen on Purdah, to the point that he annoyed Blair by not discussing the budget with him.
The rot started more recently.
Osborne was the worst, if not the start.
And most foolish, because he leaked the good stuff in advance so leaving the press only the bad news to print on the following day.
(I think actually Brown did leak budgets, especially after becoming PM, as he couldn't bear the thought of Darling giving away goodies instead. He certainly leaked the cut in VAT.)
It was the Gordon Brown era before you set Another Richard off on another anti Osborne rant.
Damian McBride: Gordon Brown encouraged me to leak the Budget
In addition, you can guarantee that none of these people will come onto the streets to protest Russia, when Russia starts its winter missile campaign against Ukraine's power and civil infrastructures.
If our government was supporting Russia's atrocities you might see more of that.
We're giving hundreds of millions to Pakistan as it expels refugees to a destitute theocracy.
Well that's foreign aid for you. It's a complex area. But what has this got to do with whether people here hit the streets or not to protest Putin's war on Ukraine?
The difference is that there are vocal groups here siding with both Israel and Palestine. There simply is no significant group cheering on Russia. Also most Britons support Ukraine, as does our government, so why would people take to the streets?
I don't think anyone is 'cheering on' Israel, at least on here.
I think a lot, but not all, of those invoking the spirit of 1997 weren’t alive then.
It’s not just that the Tories don’t feel quite so hated (these days it feels more political and like Labour in 2010 - in 97 they were the baddies for more than just this who always voted Labour) but also that Blair really was thought of as the messiah in a way Starmer just isn’t, and Labour was a brutal and united campaigning body.
I’m not saying Labour won’t win, and they might even win well (though I am still thinking 40/35 and a slim majority), but after said win Starmer won’t have 60% approval. The BBC won’t be (according to John Humphreys or maybe a Dimbleby) assuming the battle for ideas has been won, and assuming the political debate was “how” rather than “what”.
History doesn’t repeat so precisely and the underlying issues are not anywhere near so benign.
In addition, you can guarantee that none of these people will come onto the streets to protest Russia, when Russia starts its winter missile campaign against Ukraine's power and civil infrastructures.
If our government was supporting Russia's atrocities you might see more of that.
We're giving hundreds of millions to Pakistan as it expels refugees to a destitute theocracy.
Well that's foreign aid for you. It's a complex area. But what has this got to do with whether people here hit the streets or not to protest Putin's war on Ukraine?
The difference is that there are vocal groups here siding with both Israel and Palestine. There simply is no significant group cheering on Russia. Also most Britons support Ukraine, as does our government, so why would people take to the streets?
I don't think anyone is 'cheering on' Israel, at least on here.
We've had quite a few people cheering on Russia, although not recently.
Which is a shame as I enjoyed winding up the trolls and leading them into colossal contradictions.
I think Casino is correct about the labour lead being quite shallow. However I cannot see anything really changing to move the dial.
If what is rumoured about the autumn statement is true, priorities IHT cuts for the few and hammering benefits while doing nothing for those of us in work then the Tories are just really attempting to shore up the blue wall ahead of next years defeat.
Labour with a small but workable majority, around 40-50.
Thanks. As it happens I think Labour will win a landslide.
My contention is that this is meaningless in any "protection" it offers and it could easily melt away extremely quickly, and not necessarily to the Tories either.
The next election still has 1992 stamped all over it. Particular in leadership styles, and you can't deny that soap box might come in handy for Rishi.
"Coldharbour Road? Goodness it's still here" (my precis).
It doesn't, as while Starmer is no Blair attracting voters to him, he is no Kinnock or Corbyn either voters want to keep out of No 10
In addition, you can guarantee that none of these people will come onto the streets to protest Russia, when Russia starts its winter missile campaign against Ukraine's power and civil infrastructures.
If our government was supporting Russia's atrocities you might see more of that.
We're giving hundreds of millions to Pakistan as it expels refugees to a destitute theocracy.
Well that's foreign aid for you. It's a complex area. But what has this got to do with whether people here hit the streets or not to protest Putin's war on Ukraine?
I'm not aware of anyone in this country protesting about Pakistan's treatment of refugees.
Given the number of people in this country with a Pakistani or Afghan background compared with those of a Palestinian background the difference is blatant.
What I find curious is why you are so unwilling to acknowledge that so much of the anti-Israeli feeling is driven by antisemitism.
Its tolerance of antisemitism which allows it to thrive.
It is sadly in the mix but it's nonsense to make out that antisemitism is the driving force of pro-Palestine sentiment. The reason people do this is to smear and seek to delegitimize those views.
Then please explain why you and so many others are that much more energised by ten thousand dead Gazans than (for example) the hundreds of thousands killed in Syria since 2013, during a civil war that is still ongoing. To say nothing of the various other ongoing conflicts in the Middle East and around the world.
I can only speak for myself. It's a number of things. Bandwidth: You can't be equally and extensively interested in all of the world's conflicts and injustices. Exposure: Israel/Palestine gets reported on (and therefore discussed) more. Salience: Oct 7th and the resulting Gaza carnage is a 'now' event. Politics: Israel/Palestine plays into our Left v Right culture war politics.
If you're honest I think you'll find that all or some of the above are also the reasons you (and many others on your side of this argument) are so 100% uncritically pro Israel that you're blind to Palestinian suffering or more relaxed about it than you'd normally be for a humanitarian disaster you see unfolding on your tv every night.
Tax cuts should be focused (imo) on energy levies, cutting these would be counterinflationary, whereas income tax cuts would be somewhat inflationary (though I still support that if it's the only thing on offer). I would also like to see the windfall tax be made deductable against investment in additional UK energy production capacity.
I would rather National Insurance be cut than income tax, as this would benefit the working age population more, which I feel is fair. National insurance should wither on the vine as time moves forward - it complicates tax unnecessarily.
No we need to reinforce NI as funding more healthcare and more welfare benefits and the state pension not the reverse
(((Dan Hodges))) @DPJHodges · 1h The confused briefing over Inheritance Tax again underlines how No.10 are currently incapable of settling on an agreed political strategy, and sticking to it.
Either that or a brilliant Downing Street ruse to waste Labour's time researching how much IHT cuts will benefit the families Sunak and Hunt.
Latest from STimes seems to be they will do IHT in the Spring and dick about with income tax next week instead.
Yes, tax cuts focused on the redwall and other marginal Leave seats first, then tax cuts for the bluewall and wealthy more Remain leaning seats in the Spring to try and shore them up too
I think Casino is correct about the labour lead being quite shallow. However I cannot see anything really changing to move the dial.
If what is rumoured about the autumn statement is true, priorities IHT cuts for the few and hammering benefits while doing nothing for those of us in work then the Tories are just really attempting to shore up the blue wall ahead of next years defeat.
Labour with a small but workable majority, around 40-50.
Thanks. As it happens I think Labour will win a landslide.
My contention is that this is meaningless in any "protection" it offers and it could easily melt away extremely quickly, and not necessarily to the Tories either.
The next election still has 1992 stamped all over it. Particular in leadership styles, and you can't deny that soap box might come in handy for Rishi.
"Coldharbour Road? Goodness it's still here" (my precis).
Is it possible to get bored of appalling atrocities?
I think so
Every day I see Gazans dying on TV and online and I confess I start to shrug. I think you become inured. It’s awful but it’s human nature: it is impossible to maintain a state of perpetual and high pitched outrage
I’ve been read frank Dikotter’s excellent history of the Cultural Revolution and he describes a 16 year old girl told to beat her teacher to a bloody pulp. At first she was horrified and could barely look let alone join in
Within a week she saw so much she would do it - beat the teachers (sometimes to death) - never with happiness - always with some distaste. But mainly a bored shrug. She became inured
It was no longer horrifying just meh
Yes, violence is something that damages both victim and perpetrator, and repeated violence brings moral peril. It becomes normalised to the point that cutting off the power to a neonatal unit becomes a legitimate act of war.
I get that; but the question comes as to why some acts caused tens of thousands to come out onto the streets, whereas others are ignored?
Russia has had a deliberate policy of attacking hospitals (and power infrastructure) in Syria and Ukraine. Yet there was silence from many of those protesting so vociferously now. In fact, many would have been in the "Ukraine must give in for peace!" grouping. They're not saying that about the Palestinians, are they?
Every thread, every day, you’re saying the same thing. I get it. There are 2 horrendous wars going on, thousands of people are dying. In the face of this horror, the most important thing to do is to pin charges of hypocrisy on some left-wing protestors.
Stop the War are hypocrites. We all know that. Mission accomplished. Maybe we could turn our concern to those affected by wars rather than just seeing wars as a good excuse to criticise political opponents?
Tax cuts should be focused (imo) on energy levies, cutting these would be counterinflationary, whereas income tax cuts would be somewhat inflationary (though I still support that if it's the only thing on offer). I would also like to see the windfall tax be made deductable against investment in additional UK energy production capacity.
I would rather National Insurance be cut than income tax, as this would benefit the working age population more, which I feel is fair. National insurance should wither on the vine as time moves forward - it complicates tax unnecessarily.
No we need to reinforce NI as funding more healthcare and more welfare benefits and the state pension not the reverse
Why do you think workers should be taxed twice and non-workers taxed only once ?
Tax cuts should be focused (imo) on energy levies, cutting these would be counterinflationary, whereas income tax cuts would be somewhat inflationary (though I still support that if it's the only thing on offer). I would also like to see the windfall tax be made deductable against investment in additional UK energy production capacity.
I would rather National Insurance be cut than income tax, as this would benefit the working age population more, which I feel is fair. National insurance should wither on the vine as time moves forward - it complicates tax unnecessarily.
No we need to reinforce NI as funding more healthcare and more welfare benefits and the state pension not the reverse
Why do you think workers should be taxed twice and non-workers taxed only once ?
As everyone is a worker at some stage and we need to encourage more contributory welfare not discourage it and NI is the way to do it
Is it possible to get bored of appalling atrocities?
I think so
Every day I see Gazans dying on TV and online and I confess I start to shrug. I think you become inured. It’s awful but it’s human nature: it is impossible to maintain a state of perpetual and high pitched outrage
I’ve been read frank Dikotter’s excellent history of the Cultural Revolution and he describes a 16 year old girl told to beat her teacher to a bloody pulp. At first she was horrified and could barely look let alone join in
Within a week she saw so much she would do it - beat the teachers (sometimes to death) - never with happiness - always with some distaste. But mainly a bored shrug. She became inured
It was no longer horrifying just meh
Yes, violence is something that damages both victim and perpetrator, and repeated violence brings moral peril. It becomes normalised to the point that cutting off the power to a neonatal unit becomes a legitimate act of war.
I get that; but the question comes as to why some acts caused tens of thousands to come out onto the streets, whereas others are ignored?
Russia has had a deliberate policy of attacking hospitals (and power infrastructure) in Syria and Ukraine. Yet there was silence from many of those protesting so vociferously now. In fact, many would have been in the "Ukraine must give in for peace!" grouping. They're not saying that about the Palestinians, are they?
Every thread, every day, you’re saying the same thing. I get it. There are 2 horrendous wars going on, thousands of people are dying. In the face of this horror, the most important thing to do is to pin charges of hypocrisy on some left-wing protestors.
Stop the War are hypocrites. We all know that. Mission accomplished. Maybe we could turn our concern to those affected by wars rather than just seeing wars as a good excuse to criticise political opponents?
Perhaps I say the same thing because other people are saying the same things over and over? You probably don't notice as you agree with them?
Tax cuts should be focused (imo) on energy levies, cutting these would be counterinflationary, whereas income tax cuts would be somewhat inflationary (though I still support that if it's the only thing on offer). I would also like to see the windfall tax be made deductable against investment in additional UK energy production capacity.
I would rather National Insurance be cut than income tax, as this would benefit the working age population more, which I feel is fair. National insurance should wither on the vine as time moves forward - it complicates tax unnecessarily.
No we need to reinforce NI as funding more healthcare and more welfare benefits and the state pension not the reverse
Why do you think workers should be taxed twice and non-workers taxed only once ?
If we abolished NI it would also make accountancy for the self-employed much cheaper and easier, and might encourage them to pay more in income tax anyway.
NI is a bit of a farce these days. It doesn't do anything that couldn't be done on a tax record and it does a lot of damage along the way.
I'm old enough to remember when Chancellors wouldn't talk to the media for weeks, possibly months, before any Budget or Autumn Financial Statement - purdah it was called.
Now they're continuously babbling about what they might or might not do.
Raising expectations only for them to be dashed in reality.
When did this change happen ? The Gordon Brown era I suspect.
Thats nothing I am old enough to remember when the actions of Conservative Chancellors were owned by themselves rather than shifting the responsibility onto one of Brown, Clegg or Corbyn.
The Conservatives seem to have abandoned the concept of personal responsibility generally.
Which is especially condemnable as they extent the less fortunate to follow it.
Just look at the obsession with IHT, and much worse still the repetitive argument from our resident Tory that all will be well because you can always inherit from mum and dad, either during or after their demise.
I'm old enough to remember when this would have profoundly shocked the Tory voters amongst my family and acquaintance.
All of a part with the abandonment of the balance of payments as something to worry about.
Just like folk in Bradford, Tories believe in keeping it in the family.
In addition, you can guarantee that none of these people will come onto the streets to protest Russia, when Russia starts its winter missile campaign against Ukraine's power and civil infrastructures.
If our government was supporting Russia's atrocities you might see more of that.
We're giving hundreds of millions to Pakistan as it expels refugees to a destitute theocracy.
Well that's foreign aid for you. It's a complex area. But what has this got to do with whether people here hit the streets or not to protest Putin's war on Ukraine?
I'm not aware of anyone in this country protesting about Pakistan's treatment of refugees.
Given the number of people in this country with a Pakistani or Afghan background compared with those of a Palestinian background the difference is blatant.
What I find curious is why you are so unwilling to acknowledge that so much of the anti-Israeli feeling is driven by antisemitism.
Its tolerance of antisemitism which allows it to thrive.
It is sadly in the mix but it's nonsense to make out that antisemitism is the driving force of pro-Palestine sentiment. The reason people do this is to smear and seek to delegitimize those views.
Then please explain why you and so many others are that much more energised by ten thousand dead Gazans than (for example) the hundreds of thousands killed in Syria since 2013, during a civil war that is still ongoing. To say nothing of the various other ongoing conflicts in the Middle East and around the world.
I can only speak for myself. It's a number of things. Bandwidth: You can't be equally and extensively interested in all of the world's conflicts and injustices. Exposure: Israel/Palestine gets reported on (and therefore discussed) more. Salience: Oct 7th and the resulting Gaza carnage is a 'now' event. Politics: Israel/Palestine plays into our Left v Right culture war politics.
If you're honest I think you'll find that all or some of the above are also the reasons you (and many others on your side of this argument) are so 100% uncritically pro Israel that you're blind to Palestinian suffering or more relaxed about it than you'd normally be for a humanitarian disaster you see unfolding on your tv every night.
And also as Foxy has said: The difference is that there are vocal groups here siding with both Israel and Palestine. There simply is no significant group cheering on Russia. Also most Britons support Ukraine, as does our government, so why would people take to the streets?
In addition, you can guarantee that none of these people will come onto the streets to protest Russia, when Russia starts its winter missile campaign against Ukraine's power and civil infrastructures.
If our government was supporting Russia's atrocities you might see more of that.
We're giving hundreds of millions to Pakistan as it expels refugees to a destitute theocracy.
Well that's foreign aid for you. It's a complex area. But what has this got to do with whether people here hit the streets or not to protest Putin's war on Ukraine?
I'm not aware of anyone in this country protesting about Pakistan's treatment of refugees.
Given the number of people in this country with a Pakistani or Afghan background compared with those of a Palestinian background the difference is blatant.
What I find curious is why you are so unwilling to acknowledge that so much of the anti-Israeli feeling is driven by antisemitism.
Its tolerance of antisemitism which allows it to thrive.
It is sadly in the mix but it's nonsense to make out that antisemitism is the driving force of pro-Palestine sentiment. The reason people do this is to smear and seek to delegitimize those views.
If, as polls suggest, at least a quarter of the country is antisemitic then it really is the driving force.
And if a quarter of the country has antisemitic tendencies then it will be much higher in certain groups.
How much antisemitism is there among for example London leftists ? A third ? A half ?
Or is this something which is so dangerous to discover that it must be reflexively denied ?
https://www.degruyter.com/document/doi/10.26613/jca/3.2.57/pdf — see p. 34. There are worryingly high levels of antisemitism in the UK across all political views. On those numbers, antisemitism is slightly commoner among Conservative supporters than among Labour or LibDem supporters.
In addition, you can guarantee that none of these people will come onto the streets to protest Russia, when Russia starts its winter missile campaign against Ukraine's power and civil infrastructures.
If our government was supporting Russia's atrocities you might see more of that.
We're giving hundreds of millions to Pakistan as it expels refugees to a destitute theocracy.
Well that's foreign aid for you. It's a complex area. But what has this got to do with whether people here hit the streets or not to protest Putin's war on Ukraine?
I'm not aware of anyone in this country protesting about Pakistan's treatment of refugees.
Given the number of people in this country with a Pakistani or Afghan background compared with those of a Palestinian background the difference is blatant.
What I find curious is why you are so unwilling to acknowledge that so much of the anti-Israeli feeling is driven by antisemitism.
Its tolerance of antisemitism which allows it to thrive.
It is sadly in the mix but it's nonsense to make out that antisemitism is the driving force of pro-Palestine sentiment. The reason people do this is to smear and seek to delegitimize those views.
Then please explain why you and so many others are that much more energised by ten thousand dead Gazans than (for example) the hundreds of thousands killed in Syria since 2013, during a civil war that is still ongoing. To say nothing of the various other ongoing conflicts in the Middle East and around the world.
I can only speak for myself. It's a number of things. Bandwidth: You can't be equally and extensively interested in all of the world's conflicts and injustices. Exposure: Israel/Palestine gets reported on (and therefore discussed) more. Salience: Oct 7th and the resulting Gaza carnage is a 'now' event. Politics: Israel/Palestine plays into our Left v Right culture war politics.
If you're honest I think you'll find that all or some of the above are also the reasons you (and many others on your side of this argument) are so 100% uncritically pro Israel that you're blind to Palestinian suffering or more relaxed about it than you'd normally be for a humanitarian disaster you see unfolding on your tv every night.
And also as Foxy has said: The difference is that there are vocal groups here siding with both Israel and Palestine. There simply is no significant group cheering on Russia. Also most Britons support Ukraine, as does our government, so why would people take to the streets?
The Corbynites must be hurt at being told they're not significant.
In addition, you can guarantee that none of these people will come onto the streets to protest Russia, when Russia starts its winter missile campaign against Ukraine's power and civil infrastructures.
If our government was supporting Russia's atrocities you might see more of that.
We're giving hundreds of millions to Pakistan as it expels refugees to a destitute theocracy.
Well that's foreign aid for you. It's a complex area. But what has this got to do with whether people here hit the streets or not to protest Putin's war on Ukraine?
The difference is that there are vocal groups here siding with both Israel and Palestine. There simply is no significant group cheering on Russia. Also most Britons support Ukraine, as does our government, so why would people take to the streets?
I don't think anyone is 'cheering on' Israel, at least on here.
I've questioned the media narrative on certain aspects:
Every story coming out of Gaza should be believed All the casualties in Gaza are civilians The 500 deaths at the hospital bombing looks absurd (and revealed the scale of lying the Gazan authorities would engage in.
However I have not said that the Israeli response is appropriate or effective. Time will tell. Perhaps they have bludgeoned their way to achieve not very much. I certainly haven't praised Netanyahu.
In addition, you can guarantee that none of these people will come onto the streets to protest Russia, when Russia starts its winter missile campaign against Ukraine's power and civil infrastructures.
If our government was supporting Russia's atrocities you might see more of that.
We're giving hundreds of millions to Pakistan as it expels refugees to a destitute theocracy.
Well that's foreign aid for you. It's a complex area. But what has this got to do with whether people here hit the streets or not to protest Putin's war on Ukraine?
I'm not aware of anyone in this country protesting about Pakistan's treatment of refugees.
Given the number of people in this country with a Pakistani or Afghan background compared with those of a Palestinian background the difference is blatant.
What I find curious is why you are so unwilling to acknowledge that so much of the anti-Israeli feeling is driven by antisemitism.
Its tolerance of antisemitism which allows it to thrive.
It is sadly in the mix but it's nonsense to make out that antisemitism is the driving force of pro-Palestine sentiment. The reason people do this is to smear and seek to delegitimize those views.
Then please explain why you and so many others are that much more energised by ten thousand dead Gazans than (for example) the hundreds of thousands killed in Syria since 2013, during a civil war that is still ongoing. To say nothing of the various other ongoing conflicts in the Middle East and around the world.
I can only speak for myself. It's a number of things. Bandwidth: You can't be equally and extensively interested in all of the world's conflicts and injustices. Exposure: Israel/Palestine gets reported on (and therefore discussed) more. Salience: Oct 7th and the resulting Gaza carnage is a 'now' event. Politics: Israel/Palestine plays into our Left v Right culture war politics.
If you're honest I think you'll find that all or some of the above are also the reasons you (and many others on your side of this argument) are so 100% uncritically pro Israel that you're blind to Palestinian suffering or more relaxed about it than you'd normally be for a humanitarian disaster you see unfolding on your tv every night.
Bandwidth: that's true, but it doesn't explain why you've picked Israel/Hamas (out of a long list of possibilitiesto focus on so intently. Exposure: that's backwards logic. It gets reported on so much because of the intense focus, not the other way round. And anyway, that argument only works for the average not-particularly-switched-on person: someone as worldly aware as yourself can't get away with it. Salience: stone-cold nonsense; every event was a "now" event at some point. The vast majority of overseas wars don't ever get anywhere near this much attention; Syria certainly didn't. Politics: wow, that's very revealing. I can't imagine that you think this should be a party political issue, so presumably this is an admission that the Left needs to keep its Muslim client vote happy?
If you're honest, I think you'll find that none of your reasons really stack up in practice, your sensitivity to Palestinian suffering is almost entirely confected, and you have a longstanding blind spot towards anything involving Jews that severely colours your attitude to this conflict.
Tax cuts should be focused (imo) on energy levies, cutting these would be counterinflationary, whereas income tax cuts would be somewhat inflationary (though I still support that if it's the only thing on offer). I would also like to see the windfall tax be made deductable against investment in additional UK energy production capacity.
I would rather National Insurance be cut than income tax, as this would benefit the working age population more, which I feel is fair. National insurance should wither on the vine as time moves forward - it complicates tax unnecessarily.
No we need to reinforce NI as funding more healthcare and more welfare benefits and the state pension not the reverse
Why do you think workers should be taxed twice and non-workers taxed only once ?
As everyone is a worker at some stage and we need to encourage more contributory welfare not discourage it and NI is the way to do it
You could do that even better by increasing income tax and cutting NI.
In addition, you can guarantee that none of these people will come onto the streets to protest Russia, when Russia starts its winter missile campaign against Ukraine's power and civil infrastructures.
If our government was supporting Russia's atrocities you might see more of that.
We're giving hundreds of millions to Pakistan as it expels refugees to a destitute theocracy.
Well that's foreign aid for you. It's a complex area. But what has this got to do with whether people here hit the streets or not to protest Putin's war on Ukraine?
I'm not aware of anyone in this country protesting about Pakistan's treatment of refugees.
Given the number of people in this country with a Pakistani or Afghan background compared with those of a Palestinian background the difference is blatant.
What I find curious is why you are so unwilling to acknowledge that so much of the anti-Israeli feeling is driven by antisemitism.
Its tolerance of antisemitism which allows it to thrive.
It is sadly in the mix but it's nonsense to make out that antisemitism is the driving force of pro-Palestine sentiment. The reason people do this is to smear and seek to delegitimize those views.
If, as polls suggest, at least a quarter of the country is antisemitic then it really is the driving force.
And if a quarter of the country has antisemitic tendencies then it will be much higher in certain groups.
How much antisemitism is there among for example London leftists ? A third ? A half ?
Or is this something which is so dangerous to discover that it must be reflexively denied ?
https://www.degruyter.com/document/doi/10.26613/jca/3.2.57/pdf — see p. 34. There are worryingly high levels of antisemitism in the UK across all political views. On those numbers, antisemitism is slightly commoner among Conservative supporters than among Labour or LibDem supporters.
All only a tiny fraction of their total supporters however.
In 2019 the Tories also won the Jewish vote comfortably, 44% to 14% for Labour (even more than the 40% of Anglicans who voted Conservative), albeit Starmer has probably won some Jewish votes back now Corbyn has gone and given his measured support for Israeli action against Hamas http://www.brin.ac.uk/figures/religion-and-party-preference-in-2019/
I'm old enough to remember when Chancellors wouldn't talk to the media for weeks, possibly months, before any Budget or Autumn Financial Statement - purdah it was called.
Now they're continuously babbling about what they might or might not do.
Raising expectations only for them to be dashed in reality.
When did this change happen ? The Gordon Brown era I suspect.
Thats nothing I am old enough to remember when the actions of Conservative Chancellors were owned by themselves rather than shifting the responsibility onto one of Brown, Clegg or Corbyn.
The Conservatives seem to have abandoned the concept of personal responsibility generally.
Which is especially condemnable as they extent the less fortunate to follow it.
Just look at the obsession with IHT, and much worse still the repetitive argument from our resident Tory that all will be well because you can always inherit from mum and dad, either during or after their demise.
I'm old enough to remember when this would have profoundly shocked the Tory voters amongst my family and acquaintance.
All of a part with the abandonment of the balance of payments as something to worry about.
No it wouldn't and clearly you don't know your history, the Tory Party has always been the party of the landed gentry and inherited wealth since the 18th century.
Indeed in the 19th century the Whigs and then the Liberals were more pro free market than the Tories (with many Peelites leaving the Tories for the Liberals in support of Peel's repeal of the Corn Laws which Disraei, Derby and most Tories opposed), only with the rise of Labour and the decline of the Liberals in the early 20th century did the Tories become the main free market party.
Sunak and Hunt have cut inflation and the deficit from what Truss and Kwarteng left too, only that has enabled tax cuts which on the latest reports will be focused on Income Tax and NI before IHT anyway
In addition, you can guarantee that none of these people will come onto the streets to protest Russia, when Russia starts its winter missile campaign against Ukraine's power and civil infrastructures.
If our government was supporting Russia's atrocities you might see more of that.
We're giving hundreds of millions to Pakistan as it expels refugees to a destitute theocracy.
Well that's foreign aid for you. It's a complex area. But what has this got to do with whether people here hit the streets or not to protest Putin's war on Ukraine?
I'm not aware of anyone in this country protesting about Pakistan's treatment of refugees.
Given the number of people in this country with a Pakistani or Afghan background compared with those of a Palestinian background the difference is blatant.
What I find curious is why you are so unwilling to acknowledge that so much of the anti-Israeli feeling is driven by antisemitism.
Its tolerance of antisemitism which allows it to thrive.
It is sadly in the mix but it's nonsense to make out that antisemitism is the driving force of pro-Palestine sentiment. The reason people do this is to smear and seek to delegitimize those views.
Then please explain why you and so many others are that much more energised by ten thousand dead Gazans than (for example) the hundreds of thousands killed in Syria since 2013, during a civil war that is still ongoing. To say nothing of the various other ongoing conflicts in the Middle East and around the world.
I can only speak for myself. It's a number of things. Bandwidth: You can't be equally and extensively interested in all of the world's conflicts and injustices. Exposure: Israel/Palestine gets reported on (and therefore discussed) more. Salience: Oct 7th and the resulting Gaza carnage is a 'now' event. Politics: Israel/Palestine plays into our Left v Right culture war politics.
If you're honest I think you'll find that all or some of the above are also the reasons you (and many others on your side of this argument) are so 100% uncritically pro Israel that you're blind to Palestinian suffering or more relaxed about it than you'd normally be for a humanitarian disaster you see unfolding on your tv every night.
And also as Foxy has said: The difference is that there are vocal groups here siding with both Israel and Palestine. There simply is no significant group cheering on Russia. Also most Britons support Ukraine, as does our government, so why would people take to the streets?
The problem there is that "Palestine" is not technically involved in the conflict. Supporting Hamas is illegal in this country, so by definition anyone on the streets "can't" be advocating for that side of the conflict. The pro-Palestinian marchers are, in actuality, demanding a "ceasefire" as a way to get round this issue. However, this creates some other problems: firstly, how a ceasefire is defined, but more importantly, they aren't technically advocating "against" Israel's stated goal of eliminating Hamas - just against the current approach being taken. This is turn means that the debate on here is largely at crossed purposes: kinabalu (and others) are trying to square away an explicitly anti-Israel position using the figleaf of humanitarian concerns - some are buying it, some aren't.
Tax cuts should be focused (imo) on energy levies, cutting these would be counterinflationary, whereas income tax cuts would be somewhat inflationary (though I still support that if it's the only thing on offer). I would also like to see the windfall tax be made deductable against investment in additional UK energy production capacity.
I would rather National Insurance be cut than income tax, as this would benefit the working age population more, which I feel is fair. National insurance should wither on the vine as time moves forward - it complicates tax unnecessarily.
No we need to reinforce NI as funding more healthcare and more welfare benefits and the state pension not the reverse
Why do you think workers should be taxed twice and non-workers taxed only once ?
As everyone is a worker at some stage and we need to encourage more contributory welfare not discourage it and NI is the way to do it
You could do that even better by increasing income tax and cutting NI.
No you couldn't, we should be ringfencing NI to help fund the state pension, JSA and some healthcare and leave income tax to fund the rest
Tax cuts should be focused (imo) on energy levies, cutting these would be counterinflationary, whereas income tax cuts would be somewhat inflationary (though I still support that if it's the only thing on offer). I would also like to see the windfall tax be made deductable against investment in additional UK energy production capacity.
I would rather National Insurance be cut than income tax, as this would benefit the working age population more, which I feel is fair. National insurance should wither on the vine as time moves forward - it complicates tax unnecessarily.
No we need to reinforce NI as funding more healthcare and more welfare benefits and the state pension not the reverse
Why do you think workers should be taxed twice and non-workers taxed only once ?
If we abolished NI it would also make accountancy for the self-employed much cheaper and easier, and might encourage them to pay more in income tax anyway.
NI is a bit of a farce these days. It doesn't do anything that couldn't be done on a tax record and it does a lot of damage along the way.
I'm old enough to remember when Chancellors wouldn't talk to the media for weeks, possibly months, before any Budget or Autumn Financial Statement - purdah it was called.
Now they're continuously babbling about what they might or might not do.
Raising expectations only for them to be dashed in reality.
When did this change happen ? The Gordon Brown era I suspect.
Thats nothing I am old enough to remember when the actions of Conservative Chancellors were owned by themselves rather than shifting the responsibility onto one of Brown, Clegg or Corbyn.
The Conservatives seem to have abandoned the concept of personal responsibility generally.
Which is especially condemnable as they extent the less fortunate to follow it.
Just look at the obsession with IHT, and much worse still the repetitive argument from our resident Tory that all will be well because you can always inherit from mum and dad, either during or after their demise.
I'm old enough to remember when this would have profoundly shocked the Tory voters amongst my family and acquaintance.
All of a part with the abandonment of the balance of payments as something to worry about.
No it wouldn't and clearly you don't know your history, the Tory Party has always been the party of the landed gentry and inherited wealth since the 18th century.
Indeed in the 19th century the Whigs and then the Liberals were more pro free market than the Tories (with many Peelites leaving the Tories for the Liberals in support of Peel's repeal of the Corn Laws which Disraei, Derby and most Tories opposed), only with the rise of Labour and the decline of the Liberals in the early 20th century did the Tories become the main free market party.
Sunak and Hunt have cut inflation and the deficit from what Truss and Kwarteng left too, only that has enabled tax cuts which on the latest reports will be focused on Income Tax and NI before IHT anyway
I'm sure Earl Grey, the Dukes of Devonshire, the Marquesses of Lansdowne, the Earls of Derby would be intrigued to learn they were not possessors of inherited wealth.
And in the early twentieth century the Tories were not the party of free markets. Quite the contrary. They were the party of tariffs and state regulation of particularly the labour market. And they also - for example - oversaw massive state control of the railways, directly from 1915-23 and indirectly thereafter through the grouped companies.
It wasn't until Heath they started to revisit their ideas, and not until Thatcher they finally adopted them.
Tax cuts should be focused (imo) on energy levies, cutting these would be counterinflationary, whereas income tax cuts would be somewhat inflationary (though I still support that if it's the only thing on offer). I would also like to see the windfall tax be made deductable against investment in additional UK energy production capacity.
I would rather National Insurance be cut than income tax, as this would benefit the working age population more, which I feel is fair. National insurance should wither on the vine as time moves forward - it complicates tax unnecessarily.
No we need to reinforce NI as funding more healthcare and more welfare benefits and the state pension not the reverse
Why do you think workers should be taxed twice and non-workers taxed only once ?
If we abolished NI it would also make accountancy for the self-employed much cheaper and easier, and might encourage them to pay more in income tax anyway.
NI is a bit of a farce these days. It doesn't do anything that couldn't be done on a tax record and it does a lot of damage along the way.
The self employed would just fiddle more
But apart from their sex lives, what about their tax arrangements?
Omg I have found an absolute gem of a backpacker town
Like an island in Thailand in the late 1980s. Kaoh touch on Koh Rong. Only Dirt roads. Lots of Neon. People sleeping on hammocks on the beach. Weird supermarkets with sand floors. Hippychicks from Sweden. Banana pancakes laced with magic mushrooms. An intense sense of louche and drowsy lawlessness. Music everywhere and babies and stray dogs and tattoo parlours and hookers outside a bar called Kin Ky
I thought these places had all disappeared many years ago. Yet not
In rather more positive news, it looks as though progress is being made in the release of *some* of the hostages:
"The Washington Post has reported that a deal that would see Hamas release dozens of hostages is imminent. The US and Israel have denied any such deal, but we've heard from Qatar that negotiators are ironing out minor issues in the deal.
Here's what each of the key players have said:
Qatar: "The challenges that remain in the negotiations are very minor compared to the bigger challenges, they are more logistical, they are more practical," Qatar’s Prime Minister Mohammed Bin Abdulrahman al-Thanisaid in a joint press conference with EU foreign policy chief Josep Borrell. He added that he was "more confident that we are close enough to reach a deal".
The Washington Post: "Israel and Hamas are close to agreement on a US-brokered deal that would free dozens of women and children held hostage in Gaza in exchange for a five-day pause in fighting," the report said, citing "people familiar with the emerging terms".
The US: White House National Security Council spokeswoman Adrienne Watson posted on X: "We have not reached a deal yet, but we continue to work hard to get to a deal."
Israel: In a briefing last night, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said there were "a lot of incorrect reports about imminent agreements to free some or all of the roughly 240 people being held”. “As of now there is no deal,” he said."
IMV it should be *all* hostages, returned to Israel, and in return Israel returns to its borders. That's a 'win' for both sides, and a major de-escalation.
In addition, you can guarantee that none of these people will come onto the streets to protest Russia, when Russia starts its winter missile campaign against Ukraine's power and civil infrastructures.
If our government was supporting Russia's atrocities you might see more of that.
We're giving hundreds of millions to Pakistan as it expels refugees to a destitute theocracy.
Well that's foreign aid for you. It's a complex area. But what has this got to do with whether people here hit the streets or not to protest Putin's war on Ukraine?
I'm not aware of anyone in this country protesting about Pakistan's treatment of refugees.
Given the number of people in this country with a Pakistani or Afghan background compared with those of a Palestinian background the difference is blatant.
What I find curious is why you are so unwilling to acknowledge that so much of the anti-Israeli feeling is driven by antisemitism.
Its tolerance of antisemitism which allows it to thrive.
It is sadly in the mix but it's nonsense to make out that antisemitism is the driving force of pro-Palestine sentiment. The reason people do this is to smear and seek to delegitimize those views.
If, as polls suggest, at least a quarter of the country is antisemitic then it really is the driving force.
And if a quarter of the country has antisemitic tendencies then it will be much higher in certain groups.
How much antisemitism is there among for example London leftists ? A third ? A half ?
Or is this something which is so dangerous to discover that it must be reflexively denied ?
https://www.degruyter.com/document/doi/10.26613/jca/3.2.57/pdf — see p. 34. There are worryingly high levels of antisemitism in the UK across all political views. On those numbers, antisemitism is slightly commoner among Conservative supporters than among Labour or LibDem supporters.
All only a tiny fraction of their total supporters however.
In 2019 the Tories also won the Jewish vote comfortably, 44% to 14% for Labour (even more than the 40% of Anglicans who voted Conservative), albeit Starmer has probably won some Jewish votes back now Corbyn has gone and given his measured support for Israeli action against Hamas http://www.brin.ac.uk/figures/religion-and-party-preference-in-2019/
The figures in the paper I gave are about 7% of Conservative supporters, 4% for Labour and 2% of LibDems agreeing with 4+ Judeophobic statements. That’s based on 2020 YouGov polling.
In addition, you can guarantee that none of these people will come onto the streets to protest Russia, when Russia starts its winter missile campaign against Ukraine's power and civil infrastructures.
If our government was supporting Russia's atrocities you might see more of that.
We're giving hundreds of millions to Pakistan as it expels refugees to a destitute theocracy.
Well that's foreign aid for you. It's a complex area. But what has this got to do with whether people here hit the streets or not to protest Putin's war on Ukraine?
I'm not aware of anyone in this country protesting about Pakistan's treatment of refugees.
Given the number of people in this country with a Pakistani or Afghan background compared with those of a Palestinian background the difference is blatant.
What I find curious is why you are so unwilling to acknowledge that so much of the anti-Israeli feeling is driven by antisemitism.
Its tolerance of antisemitism which allows it to thrive.
It is sadly in the mix but it's nonsense to make out that antisemitism is the driving force of pro-Palestine sentiment. The reason people do this is to smear and seek to delegitimize those views.
Then please explain why you and so many others are that much more energised by ten thousand dead Gazans than (for example) the hundreds of thousands killed in Syria since 2013, during a civil war that is still ongoing. To say nothing of the various other ongoing conflicts in the Middle East and around the world.
I can only speak for myself. It's a number of things. Bandwidth: You can't be equally and extensively interested in all of the world's conflicts and injustices. Exposure: Israel/Palestine gets reported on (and therefore discussed) more. Salience: Oct 7th and the resulting Gaza carnage is a 'now' event. Politics: Israel/Palestine plays into our Left v Right culture war politics.
If you're honest I think you'll find that all or some of the above are also the reasons you (and many others on your side of this argument) are so 100% uncritically pro Israel that you're blind to Palestinian suffering or more relaxed about it than you'd normally be for a humanitarian disaster you see unfolding on your tv every night.
And also as Foxy has said: The difference is that there are vocal groups here siding with both Israel and Palestine. There simply is no significant group cheering on Russia. Also most Britons support Ukraine, as does our government, so why would people take to the streets?
The problem there is that "Palestine" is not technically involved in the conflict. Supporting Hamas is illegal in this country, so by definition anyone on the streets "can't" be advocating for that side of the conflict. The pro-Palestinian marchers are, in actuality, demanding a "ceasefire" as a way to get round this issue. However, this creates some other problems: firstly, how a ceasefire is defined, but more importantly, they aren't technically advocating "against" Israel's stated goal of eliminating Hamas - just against the current approach being taken. This is turn means that the debate on here is largely at crossed purposes: kinabalu (and others) are trying to square away an explicitly anti-Israel position using the figleaf of humanitarian concerns - some are buying it, some aren't.
I don't think they are ALL in favour of a ceasefire actually. Some are pretty explicit on that point.
Seemed to be some events around Downing St last night but obviously nothing like the numbers of people we have seen protesting in recent weeks?
In addition, you can guarantee that none of these people will come onto the streets to protest Russia, when Russia starts its winter missile campaign against Ukraine's power and civil infrastructures.
If our government was supporting Russia's atrocities you might see more of that.
We're giving hundreds of millions to Pakistan as it expels refugees to a destitute theocracy.
Well that's foreign aid for you. It's a complex area. But what has this got to do with whether people here hit the streets or not to protest Putin's war on Ukraine?
I'm not aware of anyone in this country protesting about Pakistan's treatment of refugees.
Given the number of people in this country with a Pakistani or Afghan background compared with those of a Palestinian background the difference is blatant.
What I find curious is why you are so unwilling to acknowledge that so much of the anti-Israeli feeling is driven by antisemitism.
Its tolerance of antisemitism which allows it to thrive.
It is sadly in the mix but it's nonsense to make out that antisemitism is the driving force of pro-Palestine sentiment. The reason people do this is to smear and seek to delegitimize those views.
If, as polls suggest, at least a quarter of the country is antisemitic then it really is the driving force.
And if a quarter of the country has antisemitic tendencies then it will be much higher in certain groups.
How much antisemitism is there among for example London leftists ? A third ? A half ?
Or is this something which is so dangerous to discover that it must be reflexively denied ?
https://www.degruyter.com/document/doi/10.26613/jca/3.2.57/pdf — see p. 34. There are worryingly high levels of antisemitism in the UK across all political views. On those numbers, antisemitism is slightly commoner among Conservative supporters than among Labour or LibDem supporters.
The Conservatives were certainly willing to dabble in antisemitic memes in 2015 and should have been condemned for it.
But Labour seems to have taken things to a much higher level with Labour MPs saying that Labour was 'institutionally antisemitic' and culminating in Jeremy Corbyn being suspended from the party.
In addition, you can guarantee that none of these people will come onto the streets to protest Russia, when Russia starts its winter missile campaign against Ukraine's power and civil infrastructures.
If our government was supporting Russia's atrocities you might see more of that.
We're giving hundreds of millions to Pakistan as it expels refugees to a destitute theocracy.
Well that's foreign aid for you. It's a complex area. But what has this got to do with whether people here hit the streets or not to protest Putin's war on Ukraine?
I'm not aware of anyone in this country protesting about Pakistan's treatment of refugees.
Given the number of people in this country with a Pakistani or Afghan background compared with those of a Palestinian background the difference is blatant.
What I find curious is why you are so unwilling to acknowledge that so much of the anti-Israeli feeling is driven by antisemitism.
Its tolerance of antisemitism which allows it to thrive.
It is sadly in the mix but it's nonsense to make out that antisemitism is the driving force of pro-Palestine sentiment. The reason people do this is to smear and seek to delegitimize those views.
If, as polls suggest, at least a quarter of the country is antisemitic then it really is the driving force.
And if a quarter of the country has antisemitic tendencies then it will be much higher in certain groups.
How much antisemitism is there among for example London leftists ? A third ? A half ?
Or is this something which is so dangerous to discover that it must be reflexively denied ?
https://www.degruyter.com/document/doi/10.26613/jca/3.2.57/pdf — see p. 34. There are worryingly high levels of antisemitism in the UK across all political views. On those numbers, antisemitism is slightly commoner among Conservative supporters than among Labour or LibDem supporters.
All only a tiny fraction of their total supporters however.
In 2019 the Tories also won the Jewish vote comfortably, 44% to 14% for Labour (even more than the 40% of Anglicans who voted Conservative), albeit Starmer has probably won some Jewish votes back now Corbyn has gone and given his measured support for Israeli action against Hamas http://www.brin.ac.uk/figures/religion-and-party-preference-in-2019/
I wonder how many Muslim voters SKS is alienating with his unwavering support for Israel ?
In addition, you can guarantee that none of these people will come onto the streets to protest Russia, when Russia starts its winter missile campaign against Ukraine's power and civil infrastructures.
If our government was supporting Russia's atrocities you might see more of that.
We're giving hundreds of millions to Pakistan as it expels refugees to a destitute theocracy.
Well that's foreign aid for you. It's a complex area. But what has this got to do with whether people here hit the streets or not to protest Putin's war on Ukraine?
The difference is that there are vocal groups here siding with both Israel and Palestine. There simply is no significant group cheering on Russia. Also most Britons support Ukraine, as does our government, so why would people take to the streets?
I don't think anyone is 'cheering on' Israel, at least on here.
I've questioned the media narrative on certain aspects:
Every story coming out of Gaza should be believed All the casualties in Gaza are civilians The 500 deaths at the hospital bombing looks absurd (and revealed the scale of lying the Gazan authorities would engage in.
However I have not said that the Israeli response is appropriate or effective. Time will tell. Perhaps they have bludgeoned their way to achieve not very much. I certainly haven't praised Netanyahu.
Fog of war. You (probably rightly) condemn the Gazan estimate of 500 deaths from that "bomb" yet forget that Israel has scaled back its own death toll from 7th October, let alone the 40 beheaded babies. First estimates are often little more than educated guesses, and I suspect that goes for purely civilian disasters as well.
Can a backpacker town be “authentic”? They are a bizarre invention of the 1970s. Yet I think they can be authentic. Like an authentic hunter gatherer village in the Amazon or an authentic Italian hill town in Sicily or an authentic aborigine family living in a burned out car. Why not?
If so, this is authentic. Perhaps more than all of those
I'm old enough to remember when Chancellors wouldn't talk to the media for weeks, possibly months, before any Budget or Autumn Financial Statement - purdah it was called.
Now they're continuously babbling about what they might or might not do.
Raising expectations only for them to be dashed in reality.
When did this change happen ? The Gordon Brown era I suspect.
Thats nothing I am old enough to remember when the actions of Conservative Chancellors were owned by themselves rather than shifting the responsibility onto one of Brown, Clegg or Corbyn.
The Conservatives seem to have abandoned the concept of personal responsibility generally.
Which is especially condemnable as they extent the less fortunate to follow it.
Just look at the obsession with IHT, and much worse still the repetitive argument from our resident Tory that all will be well because you can always inherit from mum and dad, either during or after their demise.
I'm old enough to remember when this would have profoundly shocked the Tory voters amongst my family and acquaintance.
All of a part with the abandonment of the balance of payments as something to worry about.
No it wouldn't and clearly you don't know your history, the Tory Party has always been the party of the landed gentry and inherited wealth since the 18th century.
Indeed in the 19th century the Whigs and then the Liberals were more pro free market than the Tories (with many Peelites leaving the Tories for the Liberals in support of Peel's repeal of the Corn Laws which Disraei, Derby and most Tories opposed), only with the rise of Labour and the decline of the Liberals in the early 20th century did the Tories become the main free market party.
Sunak and Hunt have cut inflation and the deficit from what Truss and Kwarteng left too, only that has enabled tax cuts which on the latest reports will be focused on Income Tax and NI before IHT anyway
I'm sure Earl Grey, the Dukes of Devonshire, the Marquesses of Lansdowne, the Earls of Derby would be intrigued to learn they were not possessors of inherited wealth.
And in the early twentieth century the Tories were not the party of free markets. Quite the contrary. They were the party of tariffs and state regulation of particularly the labour market. And they also - for example - oversaw massive state control of the railways, directly from 1915-23 and indirectly thereafter through the grouped companies.
It wasn't until Heath they started to revisit their ideas, and not until Thatcher they finally adopted them.
Derby was a Tory anyway, Earl Grey was a key champion of Catholic emancipation which made him a Whig and his family made money from tea and trade as much as land. The Devonshires had significant property in London not just the country.
The Tories under Baldwin were still often the party of tariffs but Labour hadn't fully overtaken Labour as the main non Tory Party until well into the 1930s.
By then once Labour were the main non Tory Party they were of course even more statist than the Conservatives even pre Thatcher, see Attlee's nationalisations
In addition, you can guarantee that none of these people will come onto the streets to protest Russia, when Russia starts its winter missile campaign against Ukraine's power and civil infrastructures.
If our government was supporting Russia's atrocities you might see more of that.
We're giving hundreds of millions to Pakistan as it expels refugees to a destitute theocracy.
Well that's foreign aid for you. It's a complex area. But what has this got to do with whether people here hit the streets or not to protest Putin's war on Ukraine?
I'm not aware of anyone in this country protesting about Pakistan's treatment of refugees.
Given the number of people in this country with a Pakistani or Afghan background compared with those of a Palestinian background the difference is blatant.
What I find curious is why you are so unwilling to acknowledge that so much of the anti-Israeli feeling is driven by antisemitism.
Its tolerance of antisemitism which allows it to thrive.
It is sadly in the mix but it's nonsense to make out that antisemitism is the driving force of pro-Palestine sentiment. The reason people do this is to smear and seek to delegitimize those views.
If, as polls suggest, at least a quarter of the country is antisemitic then it really is the driving force.
And if a quarter of the country has antisemitic tendencies then it will be much higher in certain groups.
How much antisemitism is there among for example London leftists ? A third ? A half ?
Or is this something which is so dangerous to discover that it must be reflexively denied ?
https://www.degruyter.com/document/doi/10.26613/jca/3.2.57/pdf — see p. 34. There are worryingly high levels of antisemitism in the UK across all political views. On those numbers, antisemitism is slightly commoner among Conservative supporters than among Labour or LibDem supporters.
The Conservatives were certainly willing to dabble in antisemitic memes in 2015 and should have been condemned for it.
But Labour seems to have taken things to a much higher level with Labour MPs saying that Labour was 'institutionally antisemitic' and culminating in Jeremy Corbyn being suspended from the party.
The party and the supporters are different things, of course. Read the linked paper. Most of it is about what happened with antisemitic views within Labour supporters over time. In short, antisemitism in supporters rose under Corbyn, and then fell after Corbyn.
In addition, you can guarantee that none of these people will come onto the streets to protest Russia, when Russia starts its winter missile campaign against Ukraine's power and civil infrastructures.
If our government was supporting Russia's atrocities you might see more of that.
We're giving hundreds of millions to Pakistan as it expels refugees to a destitute theocracy.
Well that's foreign aid for you. It's a complex area. But what has this got to do with whether people here hit the streets or not to protest Putin's war on Ukraine?
The difference is that there are vocal groups here siding with both Israel and Palestine. There simply is no significant group cheering on Russia. Also most Britons support Ukraine, as does our government, so why would people take to the streets?
I don't think anyone is 'cheering on' Israel, at least on here.
I've questioned the media narrative on certain aspects:
Every story coming out of Gaza should be believed All the casualties in Gaza are civilians The 500 deaths at the hospital bombing looks absurd (and revealed the scale of lying the Gazan authorities would engage in.
However I have not said that the Israeli response is appropriate or effective. Time will tell. Perhaps they have bludgeoned their way to achieve not very much. I certainly haven't praised Netanyahu.
Fog of war. You (probably rightly) condemn the Gazan estimate of 500 deaths from that "bomb" yet forget that Israel has scaled back its own death toll from 7th October, let alone the 40 beheaded babies. First estimates are often little more than educated guesses, and I suspect that goes for purely civilian disasters as well.
Israel altering their figures as they get more information is actually an indicator of truthfulness, not lying. As you say, figures are often inaccurate at first, especially after such a widespread and traumatic event. (*) It would have been easy for them to keep quiet and not revise the figures; they did the right thing, and people use it against them.
But have Hamas altered their figures for that hospital attack? What does that say about their truthfulness?
(*) Douglas Adams actually wrote about this in one of his books.
I'm old enough to remember when Chancellors wouldn't talk to the media for weeks, possibly months, before any Budget or Autumn Financial Statement - purdah it was called.
Now they're continuously babbling about what they might or might not do.
Raising expectations only for them to be dashed in reality.
When did this change happen ? The Gordon Brown era I suspect.
Thats nothing I am old enough to remember when the actions of Conservative Chancellors were owned by themselves rather than shifting the responsibility onto one of Brown, Clegg or Corbyn.
The Conservatives seem to have abandoned the concept of personal responsibility generally.
Which is especially condemnable as they extent the less fortunate to follow it.
Just look at the obsession with IHT, and much worse still the repetitive argument from our resident Tory that all will be well because you can always inherit from mum and dad, either during or after their demise.
I'm old enough to remember when this would have profoundly shocked the Tory voters amongst my family and acquaintance.
All of a part with the abandonment of the balance of payments as something to worry about.
No it wouldn't and clearly you don't know your history, the Tory Party has always been the party of the landed gentry and inherited wealth since the 18th century.
Indeed in the 19th century the Whigs and then the Liberals were more pro free market than the Tories (with many Peelites leaving the Tories for the Liberals in support of Peel's repeal of the Corn Laws which Disraei, Derby and most Tories opposed), only with the rise of Labour and the decline of the Liberals in the early 20th century did the Tories become the main free market party.
Sunak and Hunt have cut inflation and the deficit from what Truss and Kwarteng left too, only that has enabled tax cuts which on the latest reports will be focused on Income Tax and NI before IHT anyway
I'm sure Earl Grey, the Dukes of Devonshire, the Marquesses of Lansdowne, the Earls of Derby would be intrigued to learn they were not possessors of inherited wealth.
And in the early twentieth century the Tories were not the party of free markets. Quite the contrary. They were the party of tariffs and state regulation of particularly the labour market. And they also - for example - oversaw massive state control of the railways, directly from 1915-23 and indirectly thereafter through the grouped companies.
It wasn't until Heath they started to revisit their ideas, and not until Thatcher they finally adopted them.
Derby was a Tory anyway, Earl Grey was a key champion of Catholic emancipation which made him a Whig and his family made money from tea and trade as much as land. The Devonshires had significant property in London not just the country.
The Tories under Baldwin were still often the party of tariffs but Labour hadn't fully overtaken Labour as the main non Tory Party until well into the 1930s.
By then once Labour were the main non Tory Party they were of course even more statist than the Conservatives even pre Thatcher, see Attlee's nationalisations
Sorry 'but Labour hadn't fully overtaken the Liberals as the main non Tory Party until well into the 1930s.'
For a long term peace how about Israel gets Gaza and in return gives up the equivalent land on the southern border of the West Bank.
Whether the West Bank would want the Gazans might be debateable.
Translation: "I like ethnic cleansing!"
Do you want peace or Gazan destitution, endless conflict and an opportunity to criticise Israel ?
The real world requires practical solutions not glib comments on fringe websites.
It's not the responsibility of scrandies on the arse end of the Internet to solve the most intractable issue in international relations of the last 80 years. Glib comments are our pain quotidien on here.
All the worst people on here are stridently pro Israel so being pro Hamas feels like the move even though I know fuck all about the situation.
In addition, you can guarantee that none of these people will come onto the streets to protest Russia, when Russia starts its winter missile campaign against Ukraine's power and civil infrastructures.
If our government was supporting Russia's atrocities you might see more of that.
We're giving hundreds of millions to Pakistan as it expels refugees to a destitute theocracy.
Well that's foreign aid for you. It's a complex area. But what has this got to do with whether people here hit the streets or not to protest Putin's war on Ukraine?
The difference is that there are vocal groups here siding with both Israel and Palestine. There simply is no significant group cheering on Russia. Also most Britons support Ukraine, as does our government, so why would people take to the streets?
I don't think anyone is 'cheering on' Israel, at least on here.
I've questioned the media narrative on certain aspects:
Every story coming out of Gaza should be believed All the casualties in Gaza are civilians The 500 deaths at the hospital bombing looks absurd (and revealed the scale of lying the Gazan authorities would engage in.
However I have not said that the Israeli response is appropriate or effective. Time will tell. Perhaps they have bludgeoned their way to achieve not very much. I certainly haven't praised Netanyahu.
Fog of war. You (probably rightly) condemn the Gazan estimate of 500 deaths from that "bomb" yet forget that Israel has scaled back its own death toll from 7th October, let alone the 40 beheaded babies. First estimates are often little more than educated guesses, and I suspect that goes for purely civilian disasters as well.
Israel altering their figures as they get more information is actually an indicator of truthfulness, not lying. As you say, figures are often inaccurate at first, especially after such a widespread and traumatic event. (*) It would have been easy for them to keep quiet and not revise the figures; they did the right thing, and people use it against them.
But have Hamas altered their figures for that hospital attack? What does that say about their truthfulness?
(*) Douglas Adams actually wrote about this in one of his books.
They said 500, then revised that to 471. So, yes, they have altered their figure, although their final figure is still higher than estimates from other sources.
Tax cuts should be focused (imo) on energy levies, cutting these would be counterinflationary, whereas income tax cuts would be somewhat inflationary (though I still support that if it's the only thing on offer). I would also like to see the windfall tax be made deductable against investment in additional UK energy production capacity.
I would rather National Insurance be cut than income tax, as this would benefit the working age population more, which I feel is fair. National insurance should wither on the vine as time moves forward - it complicates tax unnecessarily.
No we need to reinforce NI as funding more healthcare and more welfare benefits and the state pension not the reverse
Why do you think workers should be taxed twice and non-workers taxed only once ?
As everyone is a worker at some stage and we need to encourage more contributory welfare not discourage it and NI is the way to do it
You could do that even better by increasing income tax and cutting NI.
No you couldn't, we should be ringfencing NI to help fund the state pension, JSA and some healthcare and leave income tax to fund the rest
Your wondrous vision of a country where those who own pay no taxes and those who work pay all the taxes.
Perhaps you read this book when you were younger:
Set in the year 2052, it depicts an authoritarian England divided into two distinct societies: the modern, overpopulated "Conurbs" and the aristocratic, rarefied "County". Crowded city districts and all-pervasive technology make up the Conurbs while manors and rolling countrysides typical of 19th-century England make up the County. The story follows a young Conurban orphan named Rob as he experiences life in both worlds, uncovering truths and choosing sides in the process.
For a long term peace how about Israel gets Gaza and in return gives up the equivalent land on the southern border of the West Bank.
Whether the West Bank would want the Gazans might be debateable.
Translation: "I like ethnic cleansing!"
Do you want peace or Gazan destitution, endless conflict and an opportunity to criticise Israel ?
The real world requires practical solutions not glib comments on fringe websites.
It's not the responsibility of scrandies on the arse end of the Internet to solve the most intractable issue in international relations of the last 80 years. Glib comments are our pain quotidien on here.
All the worst people on here are stridently pro Israel so being pro Hamas feels like the move even though I know fuck all about the situation.
I certainly agree with the first paragraph, nothing wrong with glibness, bleak humour, and more besides, but the second paragraph is so childish it's almost unbelievable even as a rebellious parody. In fact I'm pretty sure most people would tell children not to be pro something just because 'bad' people are pro its opposite.
Which would still be fine, we all signal our virtues in our own way, except I get the impression its supposed to be some genuinely moral position to oppose some nebulously defined mainstream, to present as fighting the system somehow (even a system of a bunch of nobodies online) and not simply a troll to try to provoke outrage to find funny, like just going "I love Hitler" to cause some anger.
In addition, you can guarantee that none of these people will come onto the streets to protest Russia, when Russia starts its winter missile campaign against Ukraine's power and civil infrastructures.
If our government was supporting Russia's atrocities you might see more of that.
We're giving hundreds of millions to Pakistan as it expels refugees to a destitute theocracy.
Well that's foreign aid for you. It's a complex area. But what has this got to do with whether people here hit the streets or not to protest Putin's war on Ukraine?
The difference is that there are vocal groups here siding with both Israel and Palestine. There simply is no significant group cheering on Russia. Also most Britons support Ukraine, as does our government, so why would people take to the streets?
I don't think anyone is 'cheering on' Israel, at least on here.
I've questioned the media narrative on certain aspects:
Every story coming out of Gaza should be believed All the casualties in Gaza are civilians The 500 deaths at the hospital bombing looks absurd (and revealed the scale of lying the Gazan authorities would engage in.
However I have not said that the Israeli response is appropriate or effective. Time will tell. Perhaps they have bludgeoned their way to achieve not very much. I certainly haven't praised Netanyahu.
Fog of war. You (probably rightly) condemn the Gazan estimate of 500 deaths from that "bomb" yet forget that Israel has scaled back its own death toll from 7th October, let alone the 40 beheaded babies. First estimates are often little more than educated guesses, and I suspect that goes for purely civilian disasters as well.
Another false equivalence from you. The 1,400 was a genuine estimate, with the difficulty that some of the attacks were so atrocious in nature that there wasn't actually anything resembling a body left to be counted. The reduction to 1,200 just reflects more accurate data, and in any case has been partially offset by an increase in the estimated number of hostages.
In contrast, the 500 wasn't an estimate at all - just a straight lie shat out by the Hamas propaganda machine that Western media, shamefully, swallowed immediately.
Maybe. Remember India started off like an express train too with the fastest 50 in a WC final only to get hopelessly bogged down. A lot depends on the dew here.
For a long term peace how about Israel gets Gaza and in return gives up the equivalent land on the southern border of the West Bank.
Whether the West Bank would want the Gazans might be debateable.
Translation: "I like ethnic cleansing!"
Do you want peace or Gazan destitution, endless conflict and an opportunity to criticise Israel ?
The real world requires practical solutions not glib comments on fringe websites.
It's not the responsibility of scrandies on the arse end of the Internet to solve the most intractable issue in international relations of the last 80 years. Glib comments are our pain quotidien on here.
All the worst people on here are stridently pro Israel so being pro Hamas feels like the move even though I know fuck all about the situation.
Can a backpacker town be “authentic”? They are a bizarre invention of the 1970s. Yet I think they can be authentic. Like an authentic hunter gatherer village in the Amazon or an authentic Italian hill town in Sicily or an authentic aborigine family living in a burned out car. Why not?
If so, this is authentic. Perhaps more than all of those
I mean, most traditions and historic things are fairly recent inventions, even those with roots that do go back a long way, and let's not forget the 70s is 50 years ago now. So I think if one still seems like the original type (or how they are remembered), it coudl be authentic.
In addition, you can guarantee that none of these people will come onto the streets to protest Russia, when Russia starts its winter missile campaign against Ukraine's power and civil infrastructures.
If our government was supporting Russia's atrocities you might see more of that.
We're giving hundreds of millions to Pakistan as it expels refugees to a destitute theocracy.
Well that's foreign aid for you. It's a complex area. But what has this got to do with whether people here hit the streets or not to protest Putin's war on Ukraine?
I'm not aware of anyone in this country protesting about Pakistan's treatment of refugees.
Given the number of people in this country with a Pakistani or Afghan background compared with those of a Palestinian background the difference is blatant.
What I find curious is why you are so unwilling to acknowledge that so much of the anti-Israeli feeling is driven by antisemitism.
Its tolerance of antisemitism which allows it to thrive.
From 2018:
Anti-Semitic stereotypes are alive and well in Europe, while the memory of the Holocaust is starting to fade, a sweeping new survey by CNN reveals. More than a quarter of Europeans polled believe Jews have too much influence in business and finance. Nearly one in four said Jews have too much influence in conflict and wars across the world.
One in five said they have too much influence in the media and the same number believe they have too much influence in politics.
A new survey measuring antisemitic attitudes across Europe from ADL (Anti-Defamation League) found that some of the most stubborn anti-Jewish tropes remain deeply entrenched in 10 European countries, with roughly one in four people harboring extensive classic antisemitic beliefs.
For a long term peace how about Israel gets Gaza and in return gives up the equivalent land on the southern border of the West Bank.
Whether the West Bank would want the Gazans might be debateable.
Translation: "I like ethnic cleansing!"
Do you want peace or Gazan destitution, endless conflict and an opportunity to criticise Israel ?
The real world requires practical solutions not glib comments on fringe websites.
It's not the responsibility of scrandies on the arse end of the Internet to solve the most intractable issue in international relations of the last 80 years. Glib comments are our pain quotidien on here.
All the worst people on here are stridently pro Israel so being pro Hamas feels like the move even though I know fuck all about the situation.
For a long term peace how about Israel gets Gaza and in return gives up the equivalent land on the southern border of the West Bank.
Whether the West Bank would want the Gazans might be debateable.
Translation: "I like ethnic cleansing!"
Do you want peace or Gazan destitution, endless conflict and an opportunity to criticise Israel ?
The real world requires practical solutions not glib comments on fringe websites.
It's not the responsibility of scrandies on the arse end of the Internet to solve the most intractable issue in international relations of the last 80 years. Glib comments are our pain quotidien on here.
All the worst people on here are stridently pro Israel so being pro Hamas feels like the move even though I know fuck all about the situation.
You being pro-Hamas was easily predictable - its all part of your 'edgy' anti-western act.
Still your driving claims give a variation on the standard Dave Spart material.
Can a backpacker town be “authentic”? They are a bizarre invention of the 1970s. Yet I think they can be authentic. Like an authentic hunter gatherer village in the Amazon or an authentic Italian hill town in Sicily or an authentic aborigine family living in a burned out car. Why not?
If so, this is authentic. Perhaps more than all of those
I mean, most traditions and historic things are fairly recent inventions, even those with roots that do go back a long way, and let's not forget the 70s is 50 years ago now. So I think if one still seems like the original type (or how they are remembered), it coudl be authentic.
I agree. I read that something like 50% of the dishes we regard as absolutely authentic Italian cooking were all invented since WW2
If you have a tiramisu in a little trattoria in a sidestreet in Vicenza it feels absolutely Italian and authentic
Tiramisu was invented in Treviso in 1969
So a classic indochinese backpacker town with its stupid gap year kids from Oslo in pyjamas and its wily local teens working out how to rip them off as the nearest beer bar is infested with perverted old farang men negotiating with bored Khmer girls in hot pants even as drunk chinese gangster families sing karaoke on the beach seems perfectly ancient and legit
Omg I have found an absolute gem of a backpacker town
Like an island in Thailand in the late 1980s. Kaoh touch on Koh Rong. Only Dirt roads. Lots of Neon. People sleeping on hammocks on the beach. Weird supermarkets with sand floors. Hippychicks from Sweden. Banana pancakes laced with magic mushrooms. An intense sense of louche and drowsy lawlessness. Music everywhere and babies and stray dogs and tattoo parlours and hookers outside a bar called Kin Ky
I thought these places had all disappeared many years ago. Yet not
Comments
Anti-Semitic stereotypes are alive and well in Europe, while the memory of the Holocaust is starting to fade, a sweeping new survey by CNN reveals. More than a quarter of Europeans polled believe Jews have too much influence in business and finance. Nearly one in four said Jews have too much influence in conflict and wars across the world.
One in five said they have too much influence in the media and the same number believe they have too much influence in politics.
https://edition.cnn.com/interactive/2018/11/europe/antisemitism-poll-2018-intl/
This year:
A new survey measuring antisemitic attitudes across Europe from ADL (Anti-Defamation League) found that some of the most stubborn anti-Jewish tropes remain deeply entrenched in 10 European countries, with roughly one in four people harboring extensive classic antisemitic beliefs.
https://www.adl.org/resources/press-release/adl-survey-finds-harmful-antisemitic-stereotypes-remain-deeply-entrenched
And there will be others who think 'Jews have too much influence' but don't say it publicly.
Plus this hostility to Jews wont be evenly spread but will be more concentrated in some demographics.
At some point a level of antisemitism is reached within a group that it becomes normalised.
If the body count through whatever means, war, pestilence or starvation reaches seven figures, does Bibi enter the history books as the ultimate freedom fighter or a tyrant?
The Holocaust was a stain on humanity, but if certain people are not careful this could be another. And Bibi is capable of unquestionable evil in executing his justified eradication of Hamas.
I would rather National Insurance be cut than income tax, as this would benefit the working age population more, which I feel is fair. National insurance should wither on the vine as time moves forward - it complicates tax unnecessarily.
More generally, the NHS never provides unlimited healthcare. It has long operated cost-effectiveness thresholds: https://www.nice.org.uk/process/pmg6/chapter/assessing-cost-effectiveness
Most of those in power in the West are still in the first and second of those two generational groupings.
Which is especially condemnable as they extent the less fortunate to follow it.
So, for example, primary schools have to teach reading via phonics and nothing else - even for kids who don't particularly respond to phonics.
Independent schools have the freedom not to teach in the Government-mandated way. Ofsted would need pretty fundamental change before it started assessing them.
Or asked an Indian broadcaster for a contract.
Incidentally do I fail the Tebbit test by cheering on India?
That's separate from the issue of the ISI's existence as a cosy club for its members.
(Incidentally the ISI is also bringing in a new framework now that is closer to OFSTED's dumbarse one. Making you wonder even more what the point of it is.)
it'll be funny to see 130,000 Indians losefor betting purposes.I wonder if the Indians will riot like they did in 1996 which ended the semi final.
I'm old enough to remember when this would have profoundly shocked the Tory voters amongst my family and acquaintance.
All of a part with the abandonment of the balance of payments as something to worry about.
And if a quarter of the country has antisemitic tendencies then it will be much higher in certain groups.
How much antisemitism is there among for example London leftists ? A third ? A half ?
Or is this something which is so dangerous to discover that it must be reflexively denied ?
The rot started more recently.
Iran is happy to fight to the last Sunni Palestinian but wants to keep its Shia Hezbollah vassals unscathed.
And most foolish, because he leaked the good stuff in advance so leaving the press only the bad news to print on the following day.
(I think actually Brown did leak budgets, especially after becoming PM, as he couldn't bear the thought of Darling giving away goodies instead. He certainly leaked the cut in VAT.)
Brown was IIRC fond of commissioning reports which always recommended doing what he wanted to do.
Damian McBride: Gordon Brown encouraged me to leak the Budget
https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/politics/damian-mcbride-gordon-brown-encouraged-me-to-leak-the-budget/29617677.html
(That loud bang you heard was TSE exploding in a panic as he looked at his book!)
It’s not just that the Tories don’t feel quite so hated (these days it feels more political and like Labour in 2010 - in 97 they were the baddies for more than just this who always voted Labour) but also that Blair really was thought of as the messiah in a way Starmer just isn’t, and Labour was a brutal and united campaigning body.
I’m not saying Labour won’t win, and they might even win well (though I am still thinking 40/35 and a slim majority), but after said win Starmer won’t have 60% approval. The BBC won’t be (according to John Humphreys or maybe a Dimbleby) assuming the battle for ideas has been won, and assuming the political debate was “how” rather than “what”.
History doesn’t repeat so precisely and the underlying issues are not anywhere near so benign.
Which is a shame as I enjoyed winding up the trolls and leading them into colossal contradictions.
Bet duly placed.
On India.
If you're honest I think you'll find that all or some of the above are also the reasons you (and many others on your side of this argument) are so 100% uncritically pro Israel that you're blind to Palestinian suffering or more relaxed about it than you'd normally be for a humanitarian disaster you see unfolding on your tv every night.
Whether the West Bank would want the Gazans might be debateable.
Stop the War are hypocrites. We all know that. Mission accomplished. Maybe we could turn our concern to those affected by wars rather than just seeing wars as a good excuse to criticise political opponents?
Gordon Greenidge 13 from 61 balls:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1975_Cricket_World_Cup_final
NI is a bit of a farce these days. It doesn't do anything that couldn't be done on a tax record and it does a lot of damage along the way.
We need a two-state solution; I'm just unsure how the **** we get there from here.
The difference is that there are vocal groups here siding with both Israel and Palestine. There simply is no significant group cheering on Russia. Also most Britons support Ukraine, as does our government, so why would people take to the streets?
Every story coming out of Gaza should be believed
All the casualties in Gaza are civilians
The 500 deaths at the hospital bombing looks absurd (and revealed the scale of lying the Gazan authorities would engage in.
However I have not said that the Israeli response is appropriate or effective. Time will tell. Perhaps they have bludgeoned their way to achieve not very much. I certainly haven't praised Netanyahu.
Exposure: that's backwards logic. It gets reported on so much because of the intense focus, not the other way round. And anyway, that argument only works for the average not-particularly-switched-on person: someone as worldly aware as yourself can't get away with it.
Salience: stone-cold nonsense; every event was a "now" event at some point. The vast majority of overseas wars don't ever get anywhere near this much attention; Syria certainly didn't.
Politics: wow, that's very revealing. I can't imagine that you think this should be a party political issue, so presumably this is an admission that the Left needs to keep its Muslim client vote happy?
If you're honest, I think you'll find that none of your reasons really stack up in practice, your sensitivity to Palestinian suffering is almost entirely confected, and you have a longstanding blind spot towards anything involving Jews that severely colours your attitude to this conflict.
In 2019 the Tories also won the Jewish vote comfortably, 44% to 14% for Labour (even more than the 40% of Anglicans who voted Conservative), albeit Starmer has probably won some Jewish votes back now Corbyn has gone and given his measured support for Israeli action against Hamas
http://www.brin.ac.uk/figures/religion-and-party-preference-in-2019/
Indeed in the 19th century the Whigs and then the Liberals were more pro free market than the Tories (with many Peelites leaving the Tories for the Liberals in support of Peel's repeal of the Corn Laws which Disraei, Derby and most Tories opposed), only with the rise of Labour and the decline of the Liberals in the early 20th century did the Tories become the main free market party.
Sunak and Hunt have cut inflation and the deficit from what Truss and Kwarteng left too, only that has enabled tax cuts which on the latest reports will be focused on Income Tax and NI before IHT anyway
And in the early twentieth century the Tories were not the party of free markets. Quite the contrary. They were the party of tariffs and state regulation of particularly the labour market. And they also - for example - oversaw massive state control of the railways, directly from 1915-23 and indirectly thereafter through the grouped companies.
It wasn't until Heath they started to revisit their ideas, and not until Thatcher they finally adopted them.
Like an island in Thailand in the late 1980s. Kaoh touch on Koh Rong. Only Dirt roads. Lots of Neon. People sleeping on hammocks on the beach. Weird supermarkets with sand floors. Hippychicks from Sweden. Banana pancakes laced with magic mushrooms. An intense sense of louche and drowsy lawlessness. Music everywhere and babies and stray dogs and tattoo parlours and hookers outside a bar called Kin Ky
I thought these places had all disappeared many years ago. Yet not
"The Washington Post has reported that a deal that would see Hamas release dozens of hostages is imminent. The US and Israel have denied any such deal, but we've heard from Qatar that negotiators are ironing out minor issues in the deal.
Here's what each of the key players have said:
Qatar: "The challenges that remain in the negotiations are very minor compared to the bigger challenges, they are more logistical, they are more practical," Qatar’s Prime Minister Mohammed Bin Abdulrahman al-Thanisaid in a joint press conference with EU foreign policy chief Josep Borrell. He added that he was "more confident that we are close enough to reach a deal".
The Washington Post: "Israel and Hamas are close to agreement on a US-brokered deal that would free dozens of women and children held hostage in Gaza in exchange for a five-day pause in fighting," the report said, citing "people familiar with the emerging terms".
The US: White House National Security Council spokeswoman Adrienne Watson posted on X: "We have not reached a deal yet, but we continue to work hard to get to a deal."
Israel: In a briefing last night, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said there were "a lot of incorrect reports about imminent agreements to free some or all of the roughly 240 people being held”. “As of now there is no deal,” he said."
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-middle-east-67466779
IMV it should be *all* hostages, returned to Israel, and in return Israel returns to its borders. That's a 'win' for both sides, and a major de-escalation.
https://antisemitism.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/Antisemitism-Barometer-2021-2.pdf has the 2021 polling in the same series, AIUI, and is worth reading in detail, but doesn’t give the results by respondents’ political views. (It does have polling on British Jews’ views of different parties.)
Seemed to be some events around Downing St last night but obviously nothing like the numbers of people we have seen protesting in recent weeks?
But Labour seems to have taken things to a much higher level with Labour MPs saying that Labour was 'institutionally antisemitic' and culminating in Jeremy Corbyn being suspended from the party.
If so, this is authentic. Perhaps more than all of those
The Tories under Baldwin were still often the party of tariffs but Labour hadn't fully overtaken Labour as the main non Tory Party until well into the 1930s.
By then once Labour were the main non Tory Party they were of course even more statist than the Conservatives even pre Thatcher, see Attlee's nationalisations
The real world requires practical solutions not glib comments on fringe websites.
But have Hamas altered their figures for that hospital attack? What does that say about their truthfulness?
(*) Douglas Adams actually wrote about this in one of his books.
All the worst people on here are stridently pro Israel so being pro Hamas feels like the move even though I know fuck all about the situation.
Perhaps you read this book when you were younger:
Set in the year 2052, it depicts an authoritarian England divided into two distinct societies: the modern, overpopulated "Conurbs" and the aristocratic, rarefied "County". Crowded city districts and all-pervasive technology make up the Conurbs while manors and rolling countrysides typical of 19th-century England make up the County. The story follows a young Conurban orphan named Rob as he experiences life in both worlds, uncovering truths and choosing sides in the process.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Guardians_(Christopher_novel)
Which would still be fine, we all signal our virtues in our own way, except I get the impression its supposed to be some genuinely moral position to oppose some nebulously defined mainstream, to present as fighting the system somehow (even a system of a bunch of nobodies online) and not simply a troll to try to provoke outrage to find funny, like just going "I love Hitler" to cause some anger.
In contrast, the 500 wasn't an estimate at all - just a straight lie shat out by the Hamas propaganda machine that Western media, shamefully, swallowed immediately.
Still your driving claims give a variation on the standard Dave Spart material.
M&S food the only remaining Tory supermarket; the Tories are toast (focaccia, with nduja and melted taleggio).
https://x.com/drjennings/status/1725997192723181782?s=20
(Edit: It's not actually new - fieldwork May '23, and 'Brexit' should say 'Reform' - but why spoil a good headline, eh?)
If you have a tiramisu in a little trattoria in a sidestreet in Vicenza it feels absolutely Italian and authentic
Tiramisu was invented in Treviso in 1969
So a classic indochinese backpacker town with its stupid gap year kids from Oslo in
pyjamas and its wily local teens working out how to rip them off as the nearest beer bar is infested with perverted old farang men negotiating with bored Khmer girls in hot pants even as drunk chinese gangster families sing karaoke on the beach seems perfectly ancient and legit
I see an immediate problem with the poll in that the Brexit Party hasn't existed for almost 3 years.
But that is being really pedantic and it is a fun poll (and post) otherwise.