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Two decades of Ipsos polling – politicalbetting.com

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  • Sir Lindsay Hoyle has called out Sunak for the snivelling little shit he is.

    What did he snivel?
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,200
    So basically this is a party political broadcast .
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,848
    Cookie said:

    148grss said:

    148grss said:

    ydoethur said:

    148grss said:

    148grss said:

    148grss said:

    148grss said:

    148grss said:

    148grss said:

    148grss said:

    darkage said:


    148grss said:

    TimS said:

    Here are the proposals:

    "NEW: I’ve seen the agenda for today’s Cabinet

    RECOMMENDATIONS INCLUDE

    -“Delay the off-gas-grid fossil fuel ban until 2035 and relax the requirement from 100% to 80% of households”
    -“Relax the gas boiler phase-out target in 2035”
    -“no new energy efficiency regulations on homes”
    -“Increase the Boiler Upgrade Scheme grant by 50% to £7500”
    -“Announce the the requirement for all vehicles to have significant zero emission capability in the period 2030-35 is to be removed”

    Bonfire of green measures…"

    https://x.com/lewis_goodall/status/1704446221820018822?s=20

    If you're in your early 30s, like myself, or younger - what do we really have to hope for? Why do I do my 9-5? Why should I care about saving a pension?

    I can't save to buy a house, I can't afford a family, I don't believe I will see my pension because either the pension age will be so high or the economy will collapse in such a way my pension will be pointless, and the country and world will see environmental ravages annually that used to be once in a lifetime.

    Why should my generation and those younger then us participate in a society that seems so gung ho in destroying any future for us?
    @148grss Feel free to ignore me but in my experience, this type of negative attitude in your 30s will ruin your life. I've got quite a few friends who think like this and a decade or so on they have just been left behind, they don't own property, don't get married/have long term relationships, no kids etc. They are going nowhere. By contrast I know people in their early 30's who already have children and own property despite having low wages (below minimum wage) and no parental support. I know lots of people in my own industry who are earning over £80k by their late 20's/early 30's, so same age as you. Also people who have just stuck at something and worked hard for 6/7 years, earning respectably, getting promotions, owning their own house etc. There is nearly always a way. It isn't particularly fair, like life itself, but beyond a point it just looks like a case of winners v losers.
    This isn't just the ramblings of a depressive (although I am one) - it is the economic data. Millennials are earning less than previous generations at the same age. Adult children living with parents is up almost 15% between 2011 and 2021. If you care about marriages (I don't, but conservatives claim to) - there's been a 10% drop in 25 - 29 age bracket over the same time. Some conservatives here also complain about the lowering birth rate, happening predominantly amongst younger adults. Why? Because we can't afford to. Rents are high and wages are stagnant. Cost of living is increasing.

    What, if anything, is improving? Healthcare isn't. Wages aren't. Environment - not so much. Any time younger people speak out they get told they're entitled and woke and should sit down and shut up whilst the older generations who benefited from government investment in university, housing, NHS, infrastructure, a social safety net all pull up the ladder behind them.
    This is an area where independent thinking people from left to right can agree.

    For me the Conservatives have always been the party of aspiration, that is the reason I supported them.

    Pulling up the ladder, saying STFU to concerns, tilting the playing field so that no houses are built and people are forced to rent for decades and so on and so forth goes against aspiration.

    If the Tories don't believe in aspiration, and you're not a self-centred early 1800s style individual who only cares about what they already have or might inherit rather than work for, then what purpose do Sunak's Tories provide?
    Our solutions just differ. Right wingers want to do neoliberalism max and unleash the market, despite the fact that that is what got us here, and left wingers want the kind of New Deal policies and social safety nets that actually worked. Like, I'm not against house building - but no private house should be built to be sold by a private developer, they should all be public housing to bring down the costs for everyone. I'm not against aspiration - but a baseline of living standards has to be met for people to be able to aspire and not just fight to survive. And that should be met by the whole of society - and those with the broadest shoulder should carry the heaviest load.
    Neoliberalism isn't what got us here.

    Illiberal planning restrictions and putting barriers up prevent housing construction from matching or better exceeding population growth is what got us here.

    Other countries have shown the solution. Liberalise planning, let people build whatever they want without asking society or neighbours for permission first just get going on building so long as you follow building codes and regulations.

    Do that and houses will be affordable and young generations will have the same opportunities their elders had.

    Of course it will also lead to massive negative equity and people's buy to let investments will turn out to be worthless. That's a lesser problem than people not being able to buy in the first place to live though.
    The neoliberal economic consensus demands that houses be commodified and therefore house prices must stay artificially high, because it was the only asset people could get at the time the slashing and burning of public infrastructure started. The reason no government can allow the housing market to go into negative equity is because that is the only increase in wealth most people have seen in the last 30 years. If that disappeared it would be clear that the stagnant wages of the last 30 years giving massive profits to corporations was hidden by the economic mirage that is the housing market.
    It is illiberalism that keeps prices high.

    Illiberalism means that you can't build a home without asking permission first, and you won't get permission for years or decades because people want to keep their asset prices high.

    Go to a liberal system, abolish the need to ask for permission, just let people get the bulldozers or whatever in on their own timescale with their neighbours not being asked first and prices would collapse.

    Which is why people who want artificially high prices are terrified of liberalism.
    So you want a further bonfire of regulations and allow the market to sort it out. That is the neoliberal model. The reason it wasn't applied to housing was precisely because it was the only asset that they were planning to leave people to give them wealth accumulation whilst they burnt down all the other pathways to that down. And because it is the only thing left standing, those who still believe in neoliberalism want to burn it down too.
    Are you a neoliberal when it comes to migration, or do you believe in controls?
    I mean, neoliberal immigration policy of porous borders is not about internationalism or benefiting humans from other countries - it's about allowing cheap labour to move more freely with the added bonus of a constant threat that the state might deport you to prevent you from unionising and asking for higher wages. Countries and borders are fake, I'm for the free movement of all peoples.
    That's gloriously incoherent.
    How so? If you only allow people to come here in a situation of precarity then they become a push down on wages, allowing a race to the bottom. If you allow people to come here but have the benefit of others in the labour pool, sure labour surplus increases, but there isn't downward pressure on wages. Neoliberalism only cares about what benefits capital - so cheap workforce that is precarious is good, actually.
    You don't think that the availability of hundreds of people willing to do your job for the same or less weakens your bargaining position?
    If they join the union there are more of you to strike, demand a 4 day week for the same amount of pay and to show solidarity with. More workers with full worker rights = more comrades.
    Unemployed workers find it quite hard to strike.
    Labour is the source of value, not capital. If there are "too many" labourers - then each of them can do less work individually and demand a living wage to do so. Say that 1000 peoples' worth of work needs doing and 2000 people are in the labour pool. What makes more sense - leaving half of them to starve, or having 2000 people do half the work for the same standard of living? I know which one I would choose as a worker.
    So anyone willing to work full-time would be your class enemy?
    No - but if we have more people than work needing doing, why create more work? If we can live only working for 2 days a week - why shouldn’t we? If someone wants to work 3 or 4 or 7 days a week there will be others who can’t or don’t want to work at all. That’s their choice. But people should be allowed to live without having to work if there isn’t work that needs doing,
    If I'm working 5 days a week, I want paying for all of that. I don't want to share it withsomeone who doesn't want to work at all. Thinking I will do so fundamentally misunderstands human nature.
    If what you're saying however is that it should be possible to work part time, then I agree.
    I suspect though could be wrong that his point of view is everyone should get the same wage regardless
  • Farooq said:

    Talking of polls, one for Mr G:

    Do Welsh voters support or oppose the new 20mph speed limit on roads where cars mix with pedestrians and cyclists? (16-17 September)

    Support 46%
    Oppose 34%

    https://twitter.com/RedfieldWilton/status/1704480530308505610

    The caveat where cars mix with pedestrians and cyclist is not the roads that the complaints are coming from

    I expect most people support that poll question
    So where are all these 30-mph roads with no pedestrians or cyclists?
    You may be surprised but there are many
    I asked you a couple of days ago for example of roads where you object to the speed limit. You declined, but you now have an opportunity to give examples of this (related?) category
    I suggest you come to Llandudno and Colwyn Bay and see for yourself

    Unless you are resident in the area the debate is pointless
    I visited Llandudno last year. And walked around the town.

    I repeat my request for an illustration of these pedestrian no-go zones.
    We are not talking about the town but all the roads in Colwyn Bay to Llandudno
    You mean like here - the main road from Colwyn Bay to Llandudno:

    https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.3125996,-3.7652262,3a,75y,324.57h,80.07t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s6yFPl6km37gq0bhwIdYLJg!2e0!6shttps://streetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com/v1/thumbnail?panoid=6yFPl6km37gq0bhwIdYLJg&cb_client=search.revgeo_and_fetch.gps&w=96&h=64&yaw=48.43832&pitch=0&thumbfov=100!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu

    I see footpaths and houses. The sort of place you get pedestrians. If this isn't where you are referring to, please put me straight.
    Very few if any pedestrians in my 58 years living in the area

  • Sir Lindsay Hoyle has called out Sunak for the snivelling little shit he is.

    What did he snivel?
    The insult to the Parliament by announcing this policy one day after Parliament rose.
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,200
    Good God this is unbelievable. Sunak pretending this isn’t an election stunt .
  • 148grss148grss Posts: 4,155
    Pagan2 said:

    148grss said:

    Pagan2 said:

    148grss said:

    148grss said:

    ydoethur said:

    148grss said:

    148grss said:

    148grss said:

    148grss said:

    148grss said:

    148grss said:

    148grss said:

    darkage said:


    148grss said:

    TimS said:

    Here are the proposals:

    "NEW: I’ve seen the agenda for today’s Cabinet

    RECOMMENDATIONS INCLUDE

    -“Delay the off-gas-grid fossil fuel ban until 2035 and relax the requirement from 100% to 80% of households”
    -“Relax the gas boiler phase-out target in 2035”
    -“no new energy efficiency regulations on homes”
    -“Increase the Boiler Upgrade Scheme grant by 50% to £7500”
    -“Announce the the requirement for all vehicles to have significant zero emission capability in the period 2030-35 is to be removed”

    Bonfire of green measures…"

    https://x.com/lewis_goodall/status/1704446221820018822?s=20

    If you're in your early 30s, like myself, or younger - what do we really have to hope for? Why do I do my 9-5? Why should I care about saving a pension?

    I can't save to buy a house, I can't afford a family, I don't believe I will see my pension because either the pension age will be so high or the economy will collapse in such a way my pension will be pointless, and the country and world will see environmental ravages annually that used to be once in a lifetime.

    Why should my generation and those younger then us participate in a society that seems so gung ho in destroying any future for us?
    @148grss Feel free to ignore me but in my experience, this type of negative attitude in your 30s will ruin your life. I've got quite a few friends who think like this and a decade or so on they have just been left behind, they don't own property, don't get married/have long term relationships, no kids etc. They are going nowhere. By contrast I know people in their early 30's who already have children and own property despite having low wages (below minimum wage) and no parental support. I know lots of people in my own industry who are earning over £80k by their late 20's/early 30's, so same age as you. Also people who have just stuck at something and worked hard for 6/7 years, earning respectably, getting promotions, owning their own house etc. There is nearly always a way. It isn't particularly fair, like life itself, but beyond a point it just looks like a case of winners v losers.
    This isn't just the ramblings of a depressive (although I am one) - it is the economic data. Millennials are earning less than previous generations at the same age. Adult children living with parents is up almost 15% between 2011 and 2021. If you care about marriages (I don't, but conservatives claim to) - there's been a 10% drop in 25 - 29 age bracket over the same time. Some conservatives here also complain about the lowering birth rate, happening predominantly amongst younger adults. Why? Because we can't afford to. Rents are high and wages are stagnant. Cost of living is increasing.

    What, if anything, is improving? Healthcare isn't. Wages aren't. Environment - not so much. Any time younger people speak out they get told they're entitled and woke and should sit down and shut up whilst the older generations who benefited from government investment in university, housing, NHS, infrastructure, a social safety net all pull up the ladder behind them.
    This is an area where independent thinking people from left to right can agree.

    For me the Conservatives have always been the party of aspiration, that is the reason I supported them.

    Pulling up the ladder, saying STFU to concerns, tilting the playing field so that no houses are built and people are forced to rent for decades and so on and so forth goes against aspiration.

    If the Tories don't believe in aspiration, and you're not a self-centred early 1800s style individual who only cares about what they already have or might inherit rather than work for, then what purpose do Sunak's Tories provide?
    Our solutions just differ. Right wingers want to do neoliberalism max and unleash the market, despite the fact that that is what got us here, and left wingers want the kind of New Deal policies and social safety nets that actually worked. Like, I'm not against house building - but no private house should be built to be sold by a private developer, they should all be public housing to bring down the costs for everyone. I'm not against aspiration - but a baseline of living standards has to be met for people to be able to aspire and not just fight to survive. And that should be met by the whole of society - and those with the broadest shoulder should carry the heaviest load.
    Neoliberalism isn't what got us here.

    Illiberal planning restrictions and putting barriers up prevent housing construction from matching or better exceeding population growth is what got us here.

    Other countries have shown the solution. Liberalise planning, let people build whatever they want without asking society or neighbours for permission first just get going on building so long as you follow building codes and regulations.

    Do that and houses will be affordable and young generations will have the same opportunities their elders had.

    Of course it will also lead to massive negative equity and people's buy to let investments will turn out to be worthless. That's a lesser problem than people not being able to buy in the first place to live though.
    The neoliberal economic consensus demands that houses be commodified and therefore house prices must stay artificially high, because it was the only asset people could get at the time the slashing and burning of public infrastructure started. The reason no government can allow the housing market to go into negative equity is because that is the only increase in wealth most people have seen in the last 30 years. If that disappeared it would be clear that the stagnant wages of the last 30 years giving massive profits to corporations was hidden by the economic mirage that is the housing market.
    It is illiberalism that keeps prices high.

    Illiberalism means that you can't build a home without asking permission first, and you won't get permission for years or decades because people want to keep their asset prices high.

    Go to a liberal system, abolish the need to ask for permission, just let people get the bulldozers or whatever in on their own timescale with their neighbours not being asked first and prices would collapse.

    Which is why people who want artificially high prices are terrified of liberalism.
    So you want a further bonfire of regulations and allow the market to sort it out. That is the neoliberal model. The reason it wasn't applied to housing was precisely because it was the only asset that they were planning to leave people to give them wealth accumulation whilst they burnt down all the other pathways to that down. And because it is the only thing left standing, those who still believe in neoliberalism want to burn it down too.
    Are you a neoliberal when it comes to migration, or do you believe in controls?
    I mean, neoliberal immigration policy of porous borders is not about internationalism or benefiting humans from other countries - it's about allowing cheap labour to move more freely with the added bonus of a constant threat that the state might deport you to prevent you from unionising and asking for higher wages. Countries and borders are fake, I'm for the free movement of all peoples.
    That's gloriously incoherent.
    How so? If you only allow people to come here in a situation of precarity then they become a push down on wages, allowing a race to the bottom. If you allow people to come here but have the benefit of others in the labour pool, sure labour surplus increases, but there isn't downward pressure on wages. Neoliberalism only cares about what benefits capital - so cheap workforce that is precarious is good, actually.
    You don't think that the availability of hundreds of people willing to do your job for the same or less weakens your bargaining position?
    If they join the union there are more of you to strike, demand a 4 day week for the same amount of pay and to show solidarity with. More workers with full worker rights = more comrades.
    Unemployed workers find it quite hard to strike.
    Labour is the source of value, not capital. If there are "too many" labourers - then each of them can do less work individually and demand a living wage to do so. Say that 1000 peoples' worth of work needs doing and 2000 people are in the labour pool. What makes more sense - leaving half of them to starve, or having 2000 people do half the work for the same standard of living? I know which one I would choose as a worker.
    So anyone willing to work full-time would be your class enemy?
    No - but if we have more people than work needing doing, why create more work? If we can live only working for 2 days a week - why shouldn’t we? If someone wants to work 3 or 4 or 7 days a week there will be others who can’t or don’t want to work at all. That’s their choice. But people should be allowed to live without having to work if there isn’t work that needs doing,
    So your argument is this 1person does 40 hours labour and is paid at £x produces 1000 doohickeys

    2 people could do 20 hours each and produce 1000 doohickeys between them and both get paid £x. I wonder what that does to the price of doohickeys?
    Why build more doohickeys then are needed? If there is a glut of doohickeys then yes, the value of the doohickey goes down. But if the worker decides how many doohickies to make why would they make a surplus? Capitalists need surpluses to extract ever greater value from labour - but labour alone doesn’t need to do that.
    I didnt say there were surplus doohickeys....clue for you a company doesnt make more doohickeys than it could sell. You are evading the question here because you know damn well paying twice as much for the same labour is the issue here. If labour is a large part of the cost of a doohickey then the price of each doohickey goes up substantially
    Company selling a number of doohickies and the number of doohickies needed are not the same. Company will often advertise and create a market for doohicky that isn’t based on need but want.

    If you have more people than is needed to make things - why should people be punished with poverty? If they can make enough for people - they should have things.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,080
    edited September 2023
    Cookie said:

    Talking of polls, one for Mr G:

    Do Welsh voters support or oppose the new 20mph speed limit on roads where cars mix with pedestrians and cyclists? (16-17 September)

    Support 46%
    Oppose 34%

    https://twitter.com/RedfieldWilton/status/1704480530308505610

    The caveat where cars mix with pedestrians and cyclist is not the roads that the complaints are coming from

    I expect most people support that poll question
    So where are all these 30-mph roads with no pedestrians or cyclists?
    You may be surprised but there are many
    Only the M4 is cyclist free, I think? I've cycled on a fair number of the A roads in mid-Wales where the limit is currently 60.

    It is a daft question.
    There's a stretch of the A55 in North Wales which also prohibits cyclists, horse-drawn vehicles, etc.
    But presumably that will not be subject to a 20mph limit?!
    Well, no, of course not. It's not currently a 30mph limit either.
  • 148grss148grss Posts: 4,155
    This speech is weird as hell.
  • Sir Lindsay Hoyle has called out Sunak for the snivelling little shit he is.

    What did he snivel?
    The insult to the Parliament by announcing this policy one day after Parliament rose.
    Ah, ta, seen the post you made a few minutes back.
  • Un bloody believable. Sunak starts by criticising short term thinking.

  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,134
    nico679 said:

    Good God this is unbelievable. Sunak pretending this isn’t an election stunt .

    Everything in politics is an election stunt.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,297
    edited September 2023
    Sunak, like Boris Johnson, is turning the mother of Parliaments into the Mother-in-law of Parliaments.
  • 148grss said:

    Pagan2 said:

    148grss said:

    Pagan2 said:

    148grss said:

    148grss said:

    ydoethur said:

    148grss said:

    148grss said:

    148grss said:

    148grss said:

    148grss said:

    148grss said:

    148grss said:

    darkage said:


    148grss said:

    TimS said:

    Here are the proposals:

    "NEW: I’ve seen the agenda for today’s Cabinet

    RECOMMENDATIONS INCLUDE

    -“Delay the off-gas-grid fossil fuel ban until 2035 and relax the requirement from 100% to 80% of households”
    -“Relax the gas boiler phase-out target in 2035”
    -“no new energy efficiency regulations on homes”
    -“Increase the Boiler Upgrade Scheme grant by 50% to £7500”
    -“Announce the the requirement for all vehicles to have significant zero emission capability in the period 2030-35 is to be removed”

    Bonfire of green measures…"

    https://x.com/lewis_goodall/status/1704446221820018822?s=20

    If you're in your early 30s, like myself, or younger - what do we really have to hope for? Why do I do my 9-5? Why should I care about saving a pension?

    I can't save to buy a house, I can't afford a family, I don't believe I will see my pension because either the pension age will be so high or the economy will collapse in such a way my pension will be pointless, and the country and world will see environmental ravages annually that used to be once in a lifetime.

    Why should my generation and those younger then us participate in a society that seems so gung ho in destroying any future for us?
    @148grss Feel free to ignore me but in my experience, this type of negative attitude in your 30s will ruin your life. I've got quite a few friends who think like this and a decade or so on they have just been left behind, they don't own property, don't get married/have long term relationships, no kids etc. They are going nowhere. By contrast I know people in their early 30's who already have children and own property despite having low wages (below minimum wage) and no parental support. I know lots of people in my own industry who are earning over £80k by their late 20's/early 30's, so same age as you. Also people who have just stuck at something and worked hard for 6/7 years, earning respectably, getting promotions, owning their own house etc. There is nearly always a way. It isn't particularly fair, like life itself, but beyond a point it just looks like a case of winners v losers.
    This isn't just the ramblings of a depressive (although I am one) - it is the economic data. Millennials are earning less than previous generations at the same age. Adult children living with parents is up almost 15% between 2011 and 2021. If you care about marriages (I don't, but conservatives claim to) - there's been a 10% drop in 25 - 29 age bracket over the same time. Some conservatives here also complain about the lowering birth rate, happening predominantly amongst younger adults. Why? Because we can't afford to. Rents are high and wages are stagnant. Cost of living is increasing.

    What, if anything, is improving? Healthcare isn't. Wages aren't. Environment - not so much. Any time younger people speak out they get told they're entitled and woke and should sit down and shut up whilst the older generations who benefited from government investment in university, housing, NHS, infrastructure, a social safety net all pull up the ladder behind them.
    This is an area where independent thinking people from left to right can agree.

    For me the Conservatives have always been the party of aspiration, that is the reason I supported them.

    Pulling up the ladder, saying STFU to concerns, tilting the playing field so that no houses are built and people are forced to rent for decades and so on and so forth goes against aspiration.

    If the Tories don't believe in aspiration, and you're not a self-centred early 1800s style individual who only cares about what they already have or might inherit rather than work for, then what purpose do Sunak's Tories provide?
    Our solutions just differ. Right wingers want to do neoliberalism max and unleash the market, despite the fact that that is what got us here, and left wingers want the kind of New Deal policies and social safety nets that actually worked. Like, I'm not against house building - but no private house should be built to be sold by a private developer, they should all be public housing to bring down the costs for everyone. I'm not against aspiration - but a baseline of living standards has to be met for people to be able to aspire and not just fight to survive. And that should be met by the whole of society - and those with the broadest shoulder should carry the heaviest load.
    Neoliberalism isn't what got us here.

    Illiberal planning restrictions and putting barriers up prevent housing construction from matching or better exceeding population growth is what got us here.

    Other countries have shown the solution. Liberalise planning, let people build whatever they want without asking society or neighbours for permission first just get going on building so long as you follow building codes and regulations.

    Do that and houses will be affordable and young generations will have the same opportunities their elders had.

    Of course it will also lead to massive negative equity and people's buy to let investments will turn out to be worthless. That's a lesser problem than people not being able to buy in the first place to live though.
    The neoliberal economic consensus demands that houses be commodified and therefore house prices must stay artificially high, because it was the only asset people could get at the time the slashing and burning of public infrastructure started. The reason no government can allow the housing market to go into negative equity is because that is the only increase in wealth most people have seen in the last 30 years. If that disappeared it would be clear that the stagnant wages of the last 30 years giving massive profits to corporations was hidden by the economic mirage that is the housing market.
    It is illiberalism that keeps prices high.

    Illiberalism means that you can't build a home without asking permission first, and you won't get permission for years or decades because people want to keep their asset prices high.

    Go to a liberal system, abolish the need to ask for permission, just let people get the bulldozers or whatever in on their own timescale with their neighbours not being asked first and prices would collapse.

    Which is why people who want artificially high prices are terrified of liberalism.
    So you want a further bonfire of regulations and allow the market to sort it out. That is the neoliberal model. The reason it wasn't applied to housing was precisely because it was the only asset that they were planning to leave people to give them wealth accumulation whilst they burnt down all the other pathways to that down. And because it is the only thing left standing, those who still believe in neoliberalism want to burn it down too.
    Are you a neoliberal when it comes to migration, or do you believe in controls?
    I mean, neoliberal immigration policy of porous borders is not about internationalism or benefiting humans from other countries - it's about allowing cheap labour to move more freely with the added bonus of a constant threat that the state might deport you to prevent you from unionising and asking for higher wages. Countries and borders are fake, I'm for the free movement of all peoples.
    That's gloriously incoherent.
    How so? If you only allow people to come here in a situation of precarity then they become a push down on wages, allowing a race to the bottom. If you allow people to come here but have the benefit of others in the labour pool, sure labour surplus increases, but there isn't downward pressure on wages. Neoliberalism only cares about what benefits capital - so cheap workforce that is precarious is good, actually.
    You don't think that the availability of hundreds of people willing to do your job for the same or less weakens your bargaining position?
    If they join the union there are more of you to strike, demand a 4 day week for the same amount of pay and to show solidarity with. More workers with full worker rights = more comrades.
    Unemployed workers find it quite hard to strike.
    Labour is the source of value, not capital. If there are "too many" labourers - then each of them can do less work individually and demand a living wage to do so. Say that 1000 peoples' worth of work needs doing and 2000 people are in the labour pool. What makes more sense - leaving half of them to starve, or having 2000 people do half the work for the same standard of living? I know which one I would choose as a worker.
    So anyone willing to work full-time would be your class enemy?
    No - but if we have more people than work needing doing, why create more work? If we can live only working for 2 days a week - why shouldn’t we? If someone wants to work 3 or 4 or 7 days a week there will be others who can’t or don’t want to work at all. That’s their choice. But people should be allowed to live without having to work if there isn’t work that needs doing,
    So your argument is this 1person does 40 hours labour and is paid at £x produces 1000 doohickeys

    2 people could do 20 hours each and produce 1000 doohickeys between them and both get paid £x. I wonder what that does to the price of doohickeys?
    Why build more doohickeys then are needed? If there is a glut of doohickeys then yes, the value of the doohickey goes down. But if the worker decides how many doohickies to make why would they make a surplus? Capitalists need surpluses to extract ever greater value from labour - but labour alone doesn’t need to do that.
    I didnt say there were surplus doohickeys....clue for you a company doesnt make more doohickeys than it could sell. You are evading the question here because you know damn well paying twice as much for the same labour is the issue here. If labour is a large part of the cost of a doohickey then the price of each doohickey goes up substantially
    Company selling a number of doohickies and the number of doohickies needed are not the same. Company will often advertise and create a market for doohicky that isn’t based on need but want.

    If you have more people than is needed to make things - why should people be punished with poverty? If they can make enough for people - they should have things.
    It's not clear whether you think there are too many doohickies being produced or not enough.
  • What is he droning on about?

  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,200
    Sunak talking about transparent politics ! Good grief this is unhinged .
  • Wittering on about democracy now.

    The guy who has by-passed parliament to make this announcement.
  • nico679 said:

    Sunak talking about transparent politics ! Good grief this is unhinged .

    Bonkers.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,736
    What does it mean to be influenced by influence?

    Is he under the influence?
  • 148grss148grss Posts: 4,155
    So apparently the vote for the party with these policies in their manifesto was not an acceptable mandate for these policies because there wasn’t a “national debate”. So… can they just ignore the manifesto policies completely now? Sunak’s argument seems to be “government can’t be bothered to do this, so we won’t”.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,473

    Sunak, like Boris Johnson, is turning the mother of Parliaments into the Mother-in-law of Parliaments.

    Surely Step-mother?
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,200
    How many shares does Sunak have in gas and oil ?
  • Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    Talking of polls, one for Mr G:

    Do Welsh voters support or oppose the new 20mph speed limit on roads where cars mix with pedestrians and cyclists? (16-17 September)

    Support 46%
    Oppose 34%

    https://twitter.com/RedfieldWilton/status/1704480530308505610

    The caveat where cars mix with pedestrians and cyclist is not the roads that the complaints are coming from

    I expect most people support that poll question
    So where are all these 30-mph roads with no pedestrians or cyclists?
    You may be surprised but there are many
    I asked you a couple of days ago for example of roads where you object to the speed limit. You declined, but you now have an opportunity to give examples of this (related?) category
    I suggest you come to Llandudno and Colwyn Bay and see for yourself

    Unless you are resident in the area the debate is pointless
    I predicted I'd get that response from you:
    "But you don't even live here" in 5... 4... 3... 2... 1...

    When you get challenged on the specifics, you always hide. Which means people will naturally doubt the generalities.

    You said there are many. It can't be that hard.
    You can doubt as much as you like, but to abolish 97% of 30mph limits across Wales has created this situation with the uproar we are experiencing

    Imagine Starmer abolished 97% of England's 30 mph zones and see just how many would be deemed unnecessary
    But 97 percent is one of those numbers that needs context.

    Most of those will be purely residential streets, whose sole purpose is to have houses on their sides. I don't know what percentage, but it will be a lot, by both number and length. You may disagree, but I'm fine with all of those being 20 mph.

    It's true there are some streets that are both ways of getting from A to B and have houses along their length. They're trickier, sure. Though most of those will be pretty stop start, in which case the 30 limit is a bit of an illusion.

    Then there are purely A to B roads, albeit many places are missing those. No pedestrians, no problem with faster.

    All Wales has done is change from a limit of 30 mph unless councils make it lower to 20 mph unless the council makes it faster. And as I understand it, that was in the rules all along.

    It's actually pretty depressing seeing Conservatives leap on this stuff like a seagull on a plate of chips. Most changes have winners and losers. The losers are always louder than the winners. Parties of government understand that and factor it in- you don't ignore the complaints, but you downweigh their volume. It gives you more accurate indications of the true feeling.

    Conservatives have stopped bothering to do that. And if they're not a party of government, what are they?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 41,947

    Sir Lindsay Hoyle has called out Sunak for the snivelling little shit he is.

    Is this the real Rishi, do we think, or is he pandering to shore up his right flank for the GE?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,508
    nico679 said:

    So basically this is a party political broadcast .

    But less intellectually coherent .
  • kinabalu said:

    Sir Lindsay Hoyle has called out Sunak for the snivelling little shit he is.

    Is this the real Rishi, do we think, or is he pandering to shore up his right flank for the GE?
    Gates has activated the bio-chip from his covid vaccine.
  • kinabalu said:

    Sir Lindsay Hoyle has called out Sunak for the snivelling little shit he is.

    Is this the real Rishi, do we think, or is he pandering to shore up his right flank for the GE?
    Is there a real Rishi? I doubt it.
  • kinabalu said:

    Sir Lindsay Hoyle has called out Sunak for the snivelling little shit he is.

    Is this the real Rishi, do we think, or is he pandering to shore up his right flank for the GE?
    Somebody has read too much into the Uxbridge & South Ruislip result.
  • kinabalu said:

    Sir Lindsay Hoyle has called out Sunak for the snivelling little shit he is.

    Is this the real Rishi, do we think, or is he pandering to shore up his right flank for the GE?
    Somebody has read too much into the Uxbridge & South Ruislip result.
    Yep. Way too much.

  • Aligning approach with Germany, France and other countries by moving 2030 to 2035
  • Can anyone really look at the Tories right now and say “yeah, another 6 years of this team in power sounds good to me!”

    Really?

    HYUFD!
  • Foxy said:
    That's quite poignant. Can it really be a coincidence that Rishi's spectacular emissions U-turn came a mere 48 hours after Liz spoke from the grave?
  • Foxy said:
    That's quite poignant. Can it really be a coincidence that Rishi's spectacular emissions U-turn came a mere 48 hours after Liz spoke from the grave?
    Grave ?
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,113
    edited September 2023
    They'll be a stampede for a new boiler just before 2035.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,853
    Well I'm a fan of this speech even if no-one else is here.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,848

    Foxy said:
    That's quite poignant. Can it really be a coincidence that Rishi's spectacular emissions U-turn came a mere 48 hours after Liz spoke from the grave?
    Is it just me that would have moved the bottom left picture of rishi so he was peering out from her cleavage?
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,113
    edited September 2023
    Pulpstar said:

    Well I'm a fan of this speech even if no-one else is here.

    I'm with you. I hope he goes on the stress the importance of international agreements.
  • glwglw Posts: 9,871

    kinabalu said:

    Sir Lindsay Hoyle has called out Sunak for the snivelling little shit he is.

    Is this the real Rishi, do we think, or is he pandering to shore up his right flank for the GE?
    Somebody has read too much into the Uxbridge & South Ruislip result.
    Yep. Way too much.

    Exactly what I feared would happen. I'm honestly stunned by the stupidity of this. Some people being a bit grumpy about having to pay a penalty does not mean there is a mandate for fiddling whilst the planet burns.
  • Aligning approach with Germany, France and other countries by moving 2030 to 2035

    What happened to the UK being world leading and not wanting to follow sclerotic Germany and France?
  • Cookie said:

    To be fair to Big G, my first thought when I heard this proposal was "it's going to make getting to Llandudno a pain in the arse. I'll probably end up going to Formby or Lytham instead."
    The reality probably doesn't add up to that. There must be, what, about 4 miles of 30mph roads between the A55 and the beach at Llandudno? So at worst, what could take 8 minutes will take 12. An extra 4 minutes on an hour and a half's journey really us neither here nor there, even if it does feel longer when you're doing it.
    Similar driving around it. It won't make that much of a differencein journey times. But it will feel interminable.

    It won't save many lives, because the problems aren't the law abiding drivers who drive at 30, it's those who do 50 in a 30 zone. It's another example of "people aren't obeying the laws - let's make harsher ones" that some in tge political class are so fond of.

    Sorry but there is just a few hundred yards over the Orme and nowhere near 4 miles

    Indeed travel from Old Colwyn to Llandudno and that is the only short 30mph zone with much smaller 40mph, before it reduces to 20mph
    Along a road used by cyclists and pedesetrians?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,473
    kinabalu said:

    Sir Lindsay Hoyle has called out Sunak for the snivelling little shit he is.

    Is this the real Rishi, do we think, or is he pandering to shore up his right flank for the GE?
    I don't think that Rishi is devoted to the green lifestyle, more to his chopper and citizen of nowhere international households.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,583

    Cookie said:

    To be fair to Big G, my first thought when I heard this proposal was "it's going to make getting to Llandudno a pain in the arse. I'll probably end up going to Formby or Lytham instead."
    The reality probably doesn't add up to that. There must be, what, about 4 miles of 30mph roads between the A55 and the beach at Llandudno? So at worst, what could take 8 minutes will take 12. An extra 4 minutes on an hour and a half's journey really us neither here nor there, even if it does feel longer when you're doing it.
    Similar driving around it. It won't make that much of a differencein journey times. But it will feel interminable.

    It won't save many lives, because the problems aren't the law abiding drivers who drive at 30, it's those who do 50 in a 30 zone. It's another example of "people aren't obeying the laws - let's make harsher ones" that some in tge political class are so fond of.

    Sorry but there is just a few hundred yards over the Orme and nowhere near 4 miles

    Indeed travel from Old Colwyn to Llandudno and that is the only short 30mph zone with much smaller 40mph, before it reduces to 20mph
    No, I meant beforethe 20mph came in. I was trying to remember from when I last went to Llandudno (in May) how much of the route from the A55 was 30mph (and presumably now 20mph). My guess was about 4 miles. I may be well out!
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,113

    Cookie said:

    To be fair to Big G, my first thought when I heard this proposal was "it's going to make getting to Llandudno a pain in the arse. I'll probably end up going to Formby or Lytham instead."
    The reality probably doesn't add up to that. There must be, what, about 4 miles of 30mph roads between the A55 and the beach at Llandudno? So at worst, what could take 8 minutes will take 12. An extra 4 minutes on an hour and a half's journey really us neither here nor there, even if it does feel longer when you're doing it.
    Similar driving around it. It won't make that much of a differencein journey times. But it will feel interminable.

    It won't save many lives, because the problems aren't the law abiding drivers who drive at 30, it's those who do 50 in a 30 zone. It's another example of "people aren't obeying the laws - let's make harsher ones" that some in tge political class are so fond of.

    Sorry but there is just a few hundred yards over the Orme and nowhere near 4 miles

    Indeed travel from Old Colwyn to Llandudno and that is the only short 30mph zone with much smaller 40mph, before it reduces to 20mph
    Along a road used by cyclists and pedesetrians?
    Any road other than a motorway can have cyclists and pedestrians can't it? What am I missing?
  • Foxy said:

    kinabalu said:

    Sir Lindsay Hoyle has called out Sunak for the snivelling little shit he is.

    Is this the real Rishi, do we think, or is he pandering to shore up his right flank for the GE?
    I don't think that Rishi is devoted to the green lifestyle, more to his chopper and citizen of nowhere international households.
    IME most of the people claiming they are 'devoted' to the 'green lifestyle' are equally at home traveling by jet around the world for their hollibobs. Many even have second homes abroad.

    Citizens of nowhere, eh?
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,200
    Sunak making up things that are going to be scrapped . Lie after lie .
  • Stocky said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Well I'm a fan of this speech even if no-one else is here.

    I'm with you. I hope he goes on the stress the importance of international agreements.
    The hyperbole on here about this speech is funny
  • Farooq said:

    Talking of polls, one for Mr G:

    Do Welsh voters support or oppose the new 20mph speed limit on roads where cars mix with pedestrians and cyclists? (16-17 September)

    Support 46%
    Oppose 34%

    https://twitter.com/RedfieldWilton/status/1704480530308505610

    The caveat where cars mix with pedestrians and cyclist is not the roads that the complaints are coming from

    I expect most people support that poll question
    So where are all these 30-mph roads with no pedestrians or cyclists?
    You may be surprised but there are many
    I asked you a couple of days ago for example of roads where you object to the speed limit. You declined, but you now have an opportunity to give examples of this (related?) category
    I suggest you come to Llandudno and Colwyn Bay and see for yourself

    Unless you are resident in the area the debate is pointless
    I visited Llandudno last year. And walked around the town.

    I repeat my request for an illustration of these pedestrian no-go zones.
    We are not talking about the town but all the roads in Colwyn Bay to Llandudno
    You mean like here - the main road from Colwyn Bay to Llandudno:

    https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.3125996,-3.7652262,3a,75y,324.57h,80.07t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s6yFPl6km37gq0bhwIdYLJg!2e0!6shttps://streetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com/v1/thumbnail?panoid=6yFPl6km37gq0bhwIdYLJg&cb_client=search.revgeo_and_fetch.gps&w=96&h=64&yaw=48.43832&pitch=0&thumbfov=100!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu

    I see footpaths and houses. The sort of place you get pedestrians. If this isn't where you are referring to, please put me straight.
    Very few if any pedestrians in my 58 years living in the area

    So the people living in those houses never venture beyond the end of their drive? And they don't have a postal delivery?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,853
    Stocky said:

    Cookie said:

    To be fair to Big G, my first thought when I heard this proposal was "it's going to make getting to Llandudno a pain in the arse. I'll probably end up going to Formby or Lytham instead."
    The reality probably doesn't add up to that. There must be, what, about 4 miles of 30mph roads between the A55 and the beach at Llandudno? So at worst, what could take 8 minutes will take 12. An extra 4 minutes on an hour and a half's journey really us neither here nor there, even if it does feel longer when you're doing it.
    Similar driving around it. It won't make that much of a differencein journey times. But it will feel interminable.

    It won't save many lives, because the problems aren't the law abiding drivers who drive at 30, it's those who do 50 in a 30 zone. It's another example of "people aren't obeying the laws - let's make harsher ones" that some in tge political class are so fond of.

    Sorry but there is just a few hundred yards over the Orme and nowhere near 4 miles

    Indeed travel from Old Colwyn to Llandudno and that is the only short 30mph zone with much smaller 40mph, before it reduces to 20mph
    Along a road used by cyclists and pedesetrians?
    Any road other than a motorway can have cyclists and pedestrians can't it? What am I missing?
    Sheffield Parkway is no cyclists.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,113

    Stocky said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Well I'm a fan of this speech even if no-one else is here.

    I'm with you. I hope he goes on the stress the importance of international agreements.
    The hyperbole on here about this speech is funny
    He's going on a bit. Needed editing.
  • Cookie said:

    Cookie said:

    To be fair to Big G, my first thought when I heard this proposal was "it's going to make getting to Llandudno a pain in the arse. I'll probably end up going to Formby or Lytham instead."
    The reality probably doesn't add up to that. There must be, what, about 4 miles of 30mph roads between the A55 and the beach at Llandudno? So at worst, what could take 8 minutes will take 12. An extra 4 minutes on an hour and a half's journey really us neither here nor there, even if it does feel longer when you're doing it.
    Similar driving around it. It won't make that much of a differencein journey times. But it will feel interminable.

    It won't save many lives, because the problems aren't the law abiding drivers who drive at 30, it's those who do 50 in a 30 zone. It's another example of "people aren't obeying the laws - let's make harsher ones" that some in tge political class are so fond of.

    Sorry but there is just a few hundred yards over the Orme and nowhere near 4 miles

    Indeed travel from Old Colwyn to Llandudno and that is the only short 30mph zone with much smaller 40mph, before it reduces to 20mph
    No, I meant beforethe 20mph came in. I was trying to remember from when I last went to Llandudno (in May) how much of the route from the A55 was 30mph (and presumably now 20mph). My guess was about 4 miles. I may be well out!
    A55 at the West End to Llandudno Town Centre is 5.7 miles
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,297
    edited September 2023
    Stocky said:

    Stocky said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Well I'm a fan of this speech even if no-one else is here.

    I'm with you. I hope he goes on the stress the importance of international agreements.
    The hyperbole on here about this speech is funny
    He's going on a bit. Needed editing.
    He needs to work on his cadence.
  • Farooq said:

    Talking of polls, one for Mr G:

    Do Welsh voters support or oppose the new 20mph speed limit on roads where cars mix with pedestrians and cyclists? (16-17 September)

    Support 46%
    Oppose 34%

    https://twitter.com/RedfieldWilton/status/1704480530308505610

    The caveat where cars mix with pedestrians and cyclist is not the roads that the complaints are coming from

    I expect most people support that poll question
    So where are all these 30-mph roads with no pedestrians or cyclists?
    You may be surprised but there are many
    I asked you a couple of days ago for example of roads where you object to the speed limit. You declined, but you now have an opportunity to give examples of this (related?) category
    I suggest you come to Llandudno and Colwyn Bay and see for yourself

    Unless you are resident in the area the debate is pointless
    I visited Llandudno last year. And walked around the town.

    I repeat my request for an illustration of these pedestrian no-go zones.
    We are not talking about the town but all the roads in Colwyn Bay to Llandudno
    You mean like here - the main road from Colwyn Bay to Llandudno:

    https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.3125996,-3.7652262,3a,75y,324.57h,80.07t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s6yFPl6km37gq0bhwIdYLJg!2e0!6shttps://streetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com/v1/thumbnail?panoid=6yFPl6km37gq0bhwIdYLJg&cb_client=search.revgeo_and_fetch.gps&w=96&h=64&yaw=48.43832&pitch=0&thumbfov=100!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu

    I see footpaths and houses. The sort of place you get pedestrians. If this isn't where you are referring to, please put me straight.
    Very few if any pedestrians in my 58 years living in the area

    So the people living in those houses never venture beyond the end of their drive? And they don't have a postal delivery?
    Some of them even go for a jog:

    https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.3131907,-3.766482,3a,30.6y,312.73h,82.92t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sstpWv9ZHgRJjD2s6OmxCbQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,668
    Foxy said:
    She’s wearing a vanilla day collar for a sub. The meme-ology and symbology are pitifully wrong
  • Pulpstar said:

    Stocky said:

    Cookie said:

    To be fair to Big G, my first thought when I heard this proposal was "it's going to make getting to Llandudno a pain in the arse. I'll probably end up going to Formby or Lytham instead."
    The reality probably doesn't add up to that. There must be, what, about 4 miles of 30mph roads between the A55 and the beach at Llandudno? So at worst, what could take 8 minutes will take 12. An extra 4 minutes on an hour and a half's journey really us neither here nor there, even if it does feel longer when you're doing it.
    Similar driving around it. It won't make that much of a differencein journey times. But it will feel interminable.

    It won't save many lives, because the problems aren't the law abiding drivers who drive at 30, it's those who do 50 in a 30 zone. It's another example of "people aren't obeying the laws - let's make harsher ones" that some in tge political class are so fond of.

    Sorry but there is just a few hundred yards over the Orme and nowhere near 4 miles

    Indeed travel from Old Colwyn to Llandudno and that is the only short 30mph zone with much smaller 40mph, before it reduces to 20mph
    Along a road used by cyclists and pedesetrians?
    Any road other than a motorway can have cyclists and pedestrians can't it? What am I missing?
    Sheffield Parkway is no cyclists.
    Parts of the new A14 cannot have cyclists (or horses...) either. In fact, many fast non-motorways have restrictions to traffic.
  • Stocky said:

    Stocky said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Well I'm a fan of this speech even if no-one else is here.

    I'm with you. I hope he goes on the stress the importance of international agreements.
    The hyperbole on here about this speech is funny
    He's going on a bit. Needed editing.
    He is not a good orator but he is posing some very serious questions

    The reaction of many posters is predictable but ultimately it is the public who will decide
  • Oh dear.

    As Sunak confirms he's delaying EV target from 2030 to 2035 in line with the EU, worth re-upping this: the whole point of 2030 was to *beat the EU* in attracting investment.

    https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1704522300467331463
  • Leon said:

    Foxy said:
    She’s wearing a vanilla day collar for a sub. The meme-ology and symbology are pitifully wrong
    Maybe Rishi is a sub-sub?
  • MattWMattW Posts: 22,700
    edited September 2023
    Foxy said:

    kinabalu said:

    Sir Lindsay Hoyle has called out Sunak for the snivelling little shit he is.

    Is this the real Rishi, do we think, or is he pandering to shore up his right flank for the GE?
    I don't think that Rishi is devoted to the green lifestyle, more to his chopper and citizen of nowhere international households.
    He's just pandering to his particular voters. Pure self-serving populism.

    Plenty of it was predictable, such as 2035 for EVs, and the fake claims about having been working on offshore wind continually when in reality all the stuff 2010-2020 was just maintaining work started by New Labour.

    10k to put a heat pump in a terraced house in Darlington, if I heard it correctly?

    Is the man misrepresenting, has he bundled other stuff in, or is he on drugs? Suspect he's quoting a number without the Govt grant, and perhaps ignoring other things.

    Octopus quote that virtually all of their quotes come in at under 8k, with prices starting at £3k:
    https://octopus.energy/get-a-heat-pump/
  • Leon said:

    Foxy said:
    She’s wearing a vanilla day collar for a sub. The meme-ology and symbology are pitifully wrong
    Perhaps the collar is intended for him.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,720
    Leon said:

    Foxy said:
    She’s wearing a vanilla day collar for a sub. The meme-ology and symbology are pitifully wrong
    I was thinking similar. They needed to photoshop the necklace on to Rishi.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,668

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:
    She’s wearing a vanilla day collar for a sub. The meme-ology and symbology are pitifully wrong
    Maybe Rishi is a sub-sub?
    I have heard several “rumours” about Sunak, they do not include sub-subbery
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,508

    Foxy said:
    That's quite poignant. Can it really be a coincidence that Rishi's spectacular emissions U-turn came a mere 48 hours after Liz spoke from the grave?
    Rishi's spectacular emissions ?

    No thanks.
  • Pwned

    Rishi Sunak, the unelected PM, having the nerve to talk about the "risk" of "losing the consent of the British people" is quite a thing.

    https://twitter.com/lmharpin/status/1704522032312922339
  • Stocky said:

    They'll be a stampede for a new boiler just before 2035.

    HE seems to be suggesting that there will always be a supply of natural gas to those houses where people have the "right" to keep their boiler.

    I suspect this has not been thought through and is just a load of bollocks.
  • glwglw Posts: 9,871

    Pwned

    Rishi Sunak, the unelected PM, having the nerve to talk about the "risk" of "losing the consent of the British people" is quite a thing.

    https://twitter.com/lmharpin/status/1704522032312922339

    He's going to find out about the consent of the public soon enough. I doubt he will like what he hears.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,890
    Mattel's new Inaction Man doll announces he is scrapping policies that would never be implemented anyway...
  • 50%/34% support the move to 2035 via Yougov
  • Oh dear.

    As Sunak confirms he's delaying EV target from 2030 to 2035 in line with the EU, worth re-upping this: the whole point of 2030 was to *beat the EU* in attracting investment.

    https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1704522300467331463

    Well yes. Rishi has drastically undermined Brexit here: this was a golden opportunity to show how nimble Britain can leave the lumbering old EU for dead. Boris must be fuming.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,890
    @Reuters

    From
    @Breakingviews
    : Rishi Sunak is considering watering down the UK’s targets for EVs and energy efficiency. The move may play well with some voters. The loser is not only Britain’s net-zero credibility – but its long-term economic health, writes
    @Unmack1
  • glwglw Posts: 9,871

    Stocky said:

    They'll be a stampede for a new boiler just before 2035.

    HE seems to be suggesting that there will always be a supply of natural gas to those houses where people have the "right" to keep their boiler.

    I suspect this has not been thought through and is just a load of bollocks.
    Same thing with cars, there will come a point when owning an ICE car will be impractical and only eccentrics will run them.
  • glw said:

    Pwned

    Rishi Sunak, the unelected PM, having the nerve to talk about the "risk" of "losing the consent of the British people" is quite a thing.

    https://twitter.com/lmharpin/status/1704522032312922339

    He's going to find out about the consent of the public soon enough. I doubt he will like what he hears.
    Not on the just published Yougov
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,736

    Stocky said:

    They'll be a stampede for a new boiler just before 2035.

    HE seems to be suggesting that there will always be a supply of natural gas to those houses where people have the "right" to keep their boiler.

    I suspect this has not been thought through and is just a load of bollocks.
    Question: how can you tell when Rishi Sunak is saying something that has not been thought through and is just a load of bollocks?
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,890
    @carldinnen

    These are the things that the government was not doing and which the Prime Minister now says he is stopping.

    https://x.com/carldinnen/status/1704524723713953920?s=20
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,639
    Farooq said:

    Stocky said:

    Cookie said:

    To be fair to Big G, my first thought when I heard this proposal was "it's going to make getting to Llandudno a pain in the arse. I'll probably end up going to Formby or Lytham instead."
    The reality probably doesn't add up to that. There must be, what, about 4 miles of 30mph roads between the A55 and the beach at Llandudno? So at worst, what could take 8 minutes will take 12. An extra 4 minutes on an hour and a half's journey really us neither here nor there, even if it does feel longer when you're doing it.
    Similar driving around it. It won't make that much of a differencein journey times. But it will feel interminable.

    It won't save many lives, because the problems aren't the law abiding drivers who drive at 30, it's those who do 50 in a 30 zone. It's another example of "people aren't obeying the laws - let's make harsher ones" that some in tge political class are so fond of.

    Sorry but there is just a few hundred yards over the Orme and nowhere near 4 miles

    Indeed travel from Old Colwyn to Llandudno and that is the only short 30mph zone with much smaller 40mph, before it reduces to 20mph
    Along a road used by cyclists and pedesetrians?
    Any road other than a motorway can have cyclists and pedestrians can't it? What am I missing?
    Edinburgh ring road. But that's a national speed limit road.
    And it essentially replaces the parallel B701 etc which is still available for vermin below the notice of PBbackless glove types, aka cyclists and pedestrians.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,890
    @paul__johnson

    'Are you panicking about losing the next election?
    -
    @ChrisMasonBBC


    'We remain a world leader. I think my approach is the right one'
    -Rishi Sunak

    So yes
  • Calling @Leon :smile:

    "Half-million-year-old wooden structure unearthed in Zambia"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-66846772

    At least it was delivered before HS2... ;)
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,639
    Scott_xP said:

    @carldinnen

    These are the things that the government was not doing and which the Prime Minister now says he is stopping.

    https://x.com/carldinnen/status/1704524723713953920?s=20

    I didn't know we had any taxes on meat, apart of course VAT on takeaways/restaurant food in general, or that anyone had seven different bins, lucky them if it means they get rid of more without having to take it to the recycling centre.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,890
    @paulwaugh

    There was a smattering of applause for Sunak's speech - always a telltale sign of desperate spin.
    It's a first for a press conf in Downing St, but MPs clapping like seals may just underline the sense of a PM in trouble.
  • He's now saying a fifth of homes can keep their boilers. Fueled by what?
  • eekeek Posts: 28,076
    Yep Rishi is going to allow you to buy a petrol car in 2032.

    Sadly no manufacturer will be making them then as the worldwide market will have made them an expensive niche product.

  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,577
    edited September 2023
    Scott_xP said:

    Mattel's new Inaction Man doll announces he is scrapping policies that would never be implemented anyway...

    LOL

    image
  • MattWMattW Posts: 22,700
    edited September 2023
    Carnyx said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @carldinnen

    These are the things that the government was not doing and which the Prime Minister now says he is stopping.

    https://x.com/carldinnen/status/1704524723713953920?s=20

    I didn't know we had any taxes on meat, apart of course VAT on takeaways/restaurant food in general, or that anyone had seven different bins, lucky them if it means they get rid of more without having to take it to the recycling centre.
    Isn't that a series of straw men?


    I've never heard of the one and three.

    The third we already have the highest taxes on people flying of anywhere in Europe via Air Passenger Duty, so that makes some sense - but leaving VAT etc of aviation fuel is loopy, and needs a European agreement.

    Who proposed compulsory car sharing? That TBH sounds like the sort of dishonest claim I might expect from Mark Harper.

    The point about insulation upgrades is that they aren't expensive, especially compared to tax free Govt driven rises in house prices, unless it is done in a really stupid way.

    Hail Mary Passes 68 to about 83.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,890
    @KennyFarq

    I'd like to sort this government into seven different bins.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,069
    edited September 2023

    glw said:

    Pwned

    Rishi Sunak, the unelected PM, having the nerve to talk about the "risk" of "losing the consent of the British people" is quite a thing.

    https://twitter.com/lmharpin/status/1704522032312922339

    He's going to find out about the consent of the public soon enough. I doubt he will like what he hears.
    Not on the just published Yougov
    You know the rule about "don't believe the first reaction to a budget, you have to wait for the consequences to emerge"?

    Of course you do.
  • Disappointed that Rishi didn't announce a one-child policy as part of today's package.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,344
    My wife has just come back from her WI meeting, where there was a report on a persistent problem over a ‘required’ zebra crossing. The authorities have said that as there hasn’t been a fatality at the point there’s no need for a crossing. I should say it’s to get from part of the town to the only local supermarket.
    I offered to put a post on our Facebook asking for a sacrificial volunteer but was told firmly not to!
  • eekeek Posts: 28,076

    He's now saying a fifth of homes can keep their boilers. Fueled by what?

    Well keeping the gas infrastructure going is going to be expensive when only 1/5 of the customers are using gas...
  • Farooq said:

    Stocky said:

    Cookie said:

    To be fair to Big G, my first thought when I heard this proposal was "it's going to make getting to Llandudno a pain in the arse. I'll probably end up going to Formby or Lytham instead."
    The reality probably doesn't add up to that. There must be, what, about 4 miles of 30mph roads between the A55 and the beach at Llandudno? So at worst, what could take 8 minutes will take 12. An extra 4 minutes on an hour and a half's journey really us neither here nor there, even if it does feel longer when you're doing it.
    Similar driving around it. It won't make that much of a differencein journey times. But it will feel interminable.

    It won't save many lives, because the problems aren't the law abiding drivers who drive at 30, it's those who do 50 in a 30 zone. It's another example of "people aren't obeying the laws - let's make harsher ones" that some in tge political class are so fond of.

    Sorry but there is just a few hundred yards over the Orme and nowhere near 4 miles

    Indeed travel from Old Colwyn to Llandudno and that is the only short 30mph zone with much smaller 40mph, before it reduces to 20mph
    Along a road used by cyclists and pedesetrians?
    Any road other than a motorway can have cyclists and pedestrians can't it? What am I missing?
    Edinburgh ring road. But that's a national speed limit road.
    Several roads in Scotland are notMotorway. A720 City Bypass. A1 Dunbar Expressway. A90 AWPR. Not a motorway. But a special road. Which is legally what makes a motorway a motorway.

    The tell is that the speed limit is 70mph, not NSL. Because special roads in Scotland do not apply the national speed limit. So when your notMotorway has 70 roundels, you know its a motorway with green signs.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,668
    edited September 2023
    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:
    She’s wearing a vanilla day collar for a sub. The meme-ology and symbology are pitifully wrong
    I was thinking similar. They needed to photoshop the necklace on to Rishi.
    BTW I think you nailed part of the reason why France is “boring”

    It is, as you say, because it no longer feels exotic. Partly because Britain has become more like France, and vice versa, and also because I’ve been here so often. I am now in Toulouse airport. The biggest food outlet here is a Pret A Manger, which kinda sums it up. The French are eating British sandwiches (I don’t blame them, they are better than French) made by a British company - with a French name, so they can appeal to Brits, their original market

    But there is something else at work. It is related to the relative lack of humour, the French take themselves seriously, too much for British tastes, perhaps

    ALSO as you say, why the FUCK did they get rid of the yellow headlights. I liked those. Seeing them stream down a Pyrenean mountain at dusk told you: THIS IS FRANCE, IT IS WEIRD AND DIFFERENT

    See also: the smell of Gitanes and Disque Bleu
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,639
    MattW said:

    Carnyx said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @carldinnen

    These are the things that the government was not doing and which the Prime Minister now says he is stopping.

    https://x.com/carldinnen/status/1704524723713953920?s=20

    I didn't know we had any taxes on meat, apart of course VAT on takeaways/restaurant food in general, or that anyone had seven different bins, lucky them if it means they get rid of more without having to take it to the recycling centre.
    Isn't that a series of straw men?

    I was being mildly sarcastic - though I'm genuinely taken with the seven bins idea (having long ago cottoned on to keeping a smaller bin inside a bigger one till the collection morning). I want.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,890
    @RMCunliffe

    Amazing moment where Sunak is caught out (by the Times, I think) of not having done his homework (got the date of the gas boiler phase-out wrong).

    The sheer panic on his face as he gabbles through pre-planned soundbites because he doesn't know the answer is almost heart-breaking
  • He's now saying a fifth of homes can keep their boilers. Fueled by what?

    The hot air from Sunak's gob.
  • TimS said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:
    She’s wearing a vanilla day collar for a sub. The meme-ology and symbology are pitifully wrong
    I was thinking similar. They needed to photoshop the necklace on to Rishi.
    I was thinking hanging off the necklace, like a cross between a crap gymnast and Harold Lloyd.

    But the "in the pocket" meme is too established to turn down.
  • He's been screwed over on HS2 now. Poor chap.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,890

    Several roads in Scotland are notMotorway. A720 City Bypass. A1 Dunbar Expressway. A90 AWPR. Not a motorway. But a special road. Which is legally what makes a motorway a motorway.

    The tell is that the speed limit is 70mph, not NSL. Because special roads in Scotland do not apply the national speed limit. So when your notMotorway has 70 roundels, you know its a motorway with green signs.

    The M8 is of course notMotorway in some parts
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    When a governing party decide to change leader, there should be a GE pretty soon after - the new PM has no mandate from the public as is shown, Boris aside, by everyone who has tried it this century.

    I know we don’t vote for a President, and it’s the party etc etc but, in reality, the public don’t seem to like a PM imposed on them by a political party
  • Farooq said:

    Stocky said:

    Cookie said:

    To be fair to Big G, my first thought when I heard this proposal was "it's going to make getting to Llandudno a pain in the arse. I'll probably end up going to Formby or Lytham instead."
    The reality probably doesn't add up to that. There must be, what, about 4 miles of 30mph roads between the A55 and the beach at Llandudno? So at worst, what could take 8 minutes will take 12. An extra 4 minutes on an hour and a half's journey really us neither here nor there, even if it does feel longer when you're doing it.
    Similar driving around it. It won't make that much of a differencein journey times. But it will feel interminable.

    It won't save many lives, because the problems aren't the law abiding drivers who drive at 30, it's those who do 50 in a 30 zone. It's another example of "people aren't obeying the laws - let's make harsher ones" that some in tge political class are so fond of.

    Sorry but there is just a few hundred yards over the Orme and nowhere near 4 miles

    Indeed travel from Old Colwyn to Llandudno and that is the only short 30mph zone with much smaller 40mph, before it reduces to 20mph
    Along a road used by cyclists and pedesetrians?
    Any road other than a motorway can have cyclists and pedestrians can't it? What am I missing?
    Edinburgh ring road. But that's a national speed limit road.
    Several roads in Scotland are notMotorway. A720 City Bypass. A1 Dunbar Expressway. A90 AWPR. Not a motorway. But a special road. Which is legally what makes a motorway a motorway.

    The tell is that the speed limit is 70mph, not NSL. Because special roads in Scotland do not apply the national speed limit. So when your notMotorway has 70 roundels, you know its a motorway with green signs.
    "Special" A-roads in London include the A406 from Beckton to Edmonton, A12 between Wanstead and Bow, and A13 between Dagenham and the M25.
This discussion has been closed.