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Brand continues to dominate the front pages – politicalbetting.com

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  • UK regulator finds no evidence of politicians being ‘debanked’ over views
    Financial Conduct Authority preparing to release report commissioned after Nigel Farage row

    https://www.ft.com/content/2e5481ab-808f-4c87-b52a-9424e5e9d48a
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    rcs1000 said:

    isam said:

    I asked then as I ask now why such a person is given such a powerful place in the national debate.

    The answer, I think, lies in the astonishing power of celebrity over those deprived of any real hope in life.

    In our society, what would once have been a comfortable, secure way of life is incredibly hard to obtain.

    Education has failed, the economy offers little but low pay and high rents.

    Celebrities are like us, yet they are rich. The more like us they are, the more we love them for their success, and the more we listen to them.

    The older voices of education, research, skill, experience are just crabby, Victorian and outdated.

    Unless we can do something pretty radical about it, the future belongs to Russell Brand, or someone very like him.


    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-12533021/PETER-HITCHENS-Trying-argument-Russell-Brand-like-playing-chess-squirrel-given-place-national-debate.html

    “ Brand, in my view, is not stupid, though he is ill-informed and very bad at arguing. He makes much use of his teeth, baring them as he jeers. His voice, if you challenge him, is very strange.

    It is a sort of rising hedge-trimmer whine when he is trying to talk over you. Then it is a disturbing baby-talk simper (disturbing because it is issuing from a grown man), when he is trying to ingratiate himself either with you, the presenter or the audience.”

    What a fantastic article. Glad PH noted the insincere ‘mate’ which is often deployed by centrist/O’Brien disciples, either that or addressing people in a faux friendly way by their first name
    While I'm not a massive Peter Hitchens fan, he correctly skewers Brand there.
    While displaying unusual self awareness:
    ...The older voices of education, research, skill, experience are just crabby, Victorian and outdated..
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    If Leon is ever stuck for travel ideas.

    Those who say that America doesn't have magnificent cathedrals are simply wrong.

    A thread of the finest churches in the U.S.

    https://twitter.com/Culture_Crit/status/1703881983900758088
  • Nigelb said:

    If Leon is ever stuck for travel ideas.

    Those who say that America doesn't have magnificent cathedrals are simply wrong.

    A thread of the finest churches in the U.S.

    https://twitter.com/Culture_Crit/status/1703881983900758088

    If the Gazette is stuck for ideas on where to send their top travel & food writer:-

    Forget Naples. The world’s best pizza is made in Chiswick
    Not even the best pizzaiolos in his native Italy could match Michele Pascarella’s slices at the 50 Top Pizza awards.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/forget-naples-the-world-s-best-pizza-is-made-in-chiswick-r62rhjh0q (£££)
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,553
    edited September 2023
    Nigelb said:

    If Leon is ever stuck for travel ideas.

    Those who say that America doesn't have magnificent cathedrals are simply wrong.

    A thread of the finest churches in the U.S.

    https://twitter.com/Culture_Crit/status/1703881983900758088

    The problem with St Patrick's is that it looks ridiculously small surrounded by all those skyscrapers.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    edited September 2023
    Andy_JS said:

    Nigelb said:

    If Leon is ever stuck for travel ideas.

    Those who say that America doesn't have magnificent cathedrals are simply wrong.

    A thread of the finest churches in the U.S.

    https://twitter.com/Culture_Crit/status/1703881983900758088

    The problem with St Patrick's is that it looks ridiculously small surrounded by all those skyscrapers.
    Though emblematic of the decline of religious influence ?

    You can see why London planners try to preserve the views of St Paul's.
  • Penddu2Penddu2 Posts: 689
    edited September 2023
    Ignore the hyped up petition on Welsh 20 mph limit - by first removing all signatures from outside of Wales. It will still be a high number though and as such will trigger a debate in the Senedd. This debate will highlight the facts that:
    1. The policy was initially promoted by the Conservatives
    2. Poorly communicated by Labour
    3. Modified to be more realistc by Plaid
    4. Generally supported by the majority, the emergency services and NHS
    5. Objected to by the same people who objected to wearing seatbelts, banning indoor smoking, Covid vaccinations etc
    6. Power to apply 30mph limits instead of 20mph lies with local councils (of varying political persuasions) and not with the Welsh Government. If you dont like a 20mph on a particular stretch of road take it up with your Council.

    I predict that an outcome of the debate will be to establish a national review of 20 mph implementation with a subcommittee established in every counci to agree specific routes. It will not result in change of policy.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,859

    Andy_JS said:

    The Welsh 20 mph petition is now really picking up steam. 109,135.

    I assume because a lot of Welsh drivers have only just made it home.

    Drivers in Wales have experienced the reality of default 20mph and do not like it
    Oh boo hoo.

    The entire point is that policy shouldn’t be decided purely on the basis of what “drivers like”.
    25 mph in the centre of built-up areas would have been a compromise.
    Actually 20mph is sensible in congested areas

    The problem in Wales is that a virtual blanket reduction from 30mph to 20mph is not seen as reasonable on some of the roads currently at 30mph and compromise will happen
    I thought the whole point of a 20 mph is that people actually drive at nearly 30, away from any cameras, whereas in 30 mph you commonly get speeds pushing 40?
  • Penddu2Penddu2 Posts: 689
    Exactly - the policy is to get people to slow down. I expect nobody will be fined for doing say 25 mph in 20 mph zone. But expect the book to be thrown at those doing 40 mph.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    Russell Brand accuser calls his response to allegations ‘insulting’
    https://www.theguardian.com/culture/2023/sep/18/russell-brand-accuser-calls-his-response-to-allegations-insulting
    ...“It’s insulting,” Alice told BBC Radio 4’s Woman’s Hour on Monday. “And it’s laughable that he would even imply that this is some kind of mainstream media conspiracy. He’s not outside the mainstream – he did a Universal Pictures movie last year, he did Minions, a children’s movie.

    “He is very much part of the mainstream media, he just happens to have a YouTube channel where he talks about conspiracy theories to an audience that laps it up. And, it may sound cynical, but I do think that he was building himself an audience for years of people that would then have great distrust of any publication that came forward with allegations. He knew it was coming for a long time.

    “And then, as for him denying that anything non-consensual happened. That’s not a surprise to me. These men always deny any of the allegations brought to them – I knew he would. What he didn’t deny was that he had a relationship with a 16-year-old.”..



  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    Attempt to visit the UM Memorial Cemetry in Busan thwarted by traffic this morning.

    Long drive north today.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,553
    edited September 2023
    Nigelb said:

    Attempt to visit the UM Memorial Cemetry in Busan thwarted by traffic this morning.

    Long drive north today.

    Visited South Korea for a week in September/October 2012. Didn't go to Busan though. Spent the second week of the trip in Taiwan.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,175
    Nigelb said:

    Russell Brand accuser calls his response to allegations ‘insulting’
    https://www.theguardian.com/culture/2023/sep/18/russell-brand-accuser-calls-his-response-to-allegations-insulting
    ...“It’s insulting,” Alice told BBC Radio 4’s Woman’s Hour on Monday. “And it’s laughable that he would even imply that this is some kind of mainstream media conspiracy. He’s not outside the mainstream – he did a Universal Pictures movie last year, he did Minions, a children’s movie.

    “He is very much part of the mainstream media, he just happens to have a YouTube channel where he talks about conspiracy theories to an audience that laps it up. And, it may sound cynical, but I do think that he was building himself an audience for years of people that would then have great distrust of any publication that came forward with allegations. He knew it was coming for a long time.

    “And then, as for him denying that anything non-consensual happened. That’s not a surprise to me. These men always deny any of the allegations brought to them – I knew he would. What he didn’t deny was that he had a relationship with a 16-year-old.”..

    It seems foolish for this woman to comment on Brand’s work. If it’s that obvious to her that he would build up a fan base that would defend him, why didn’t she come forward before he’d done that?

    I think Brand is a moron, but that shouldn’t come into this. Very simply, tell the police what happened and let them investigate. Leave everything else at the door.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,553
    O/T

    At 1 min, Russell Brand's character in The Bill gets arrested for GBH. Episode from 1994.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvjy-gbR-Fc
  • https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/sep/19/sadiq-khan-says-hundreds-of-thousands-spent-on-anti-ulez-twitter-manipulation

    Whatever one's thoughts on ULEZ, the fact that someone spent £100ks spreading anti ULEZ messages and disinformation via fake social media accounts is worrying. Who was it, and what is their agenda?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    tlg86 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Russell Brand accuser calls his response to allegations ‘insulting’
    https://www.theguardian.com/culture/2023/sep/18/russell-brand-accuser-calls-his-response-to-allegations-insulting
    ...“It’s insulting,” Alice told BBC Radio 4’s Woman’s Hour on Monday. “And it’s laughable that he would even imply that this is some kind of mainstream media conspiracy. He’s not outside the mainstream – he did a Universal Pictures movie last year, he did Minions, a children’s movie.

    “He is very much part of the mainstream media, he just happens to have a YouTube channel where he talks about conspiracy theories to an audience that laps it up. And, it may sound cynical, but I do think that he was building himself an audience for years of people that would then have great distrust of any publication that came forward with allegations. He knew it was coming for a long time.

    “And then, as for him denying that anything non-consensual happened. That’s not a surprise to me. These men always deny any of the allegations brought to them – I knew he would. What he didn’t deny was that he had a relationship with a 16-year-old.”..

    It seems foolish for this woman to comment on Brand’s work. If it’s that obvious to her that he would build up a fan base that would defend him, why didn’t she come forward before he’d done that?

    I think Brand is a moron, but that shouldn’t come into this. Very simply, tell the police what happened and let them investigate. Leave everything else at the door.
    Something of a double standard going on here.

    If Brand continues to publicly rubbish those who've made allegations against him, should we expect them to remain silent ?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    Japan population: One in 10 people now aged 80 or older.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-66850943
    For the first time ever, more than one in 10 people in Japan are now aged 80 or older.
    National data also shows 29.1% of the 125 million population is aged 65 or older- a record.
    Japan has one of the lowest birth-rates in the world and has long struggled with how to provide for its ageing population.
    It has the world's oldest population, measured by the proportion of people aged 65 or up, the United Nations says.
    That proportion stands at 24.5% in Italy and 23.6% in Finland, which rank second and third respectively...

  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,175
    Nigelb said:

    tlg86 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Russell Brand accuser calls his response to allegations ‘insulting’
    https://www.theguardian.com/culture/2023/sep/18/russell-brand-accuser-calls-his-response-to-allegations-insulting
    ...“It’s insulting,” Alice told BBC Radio 4’s Woman’s Hour on Monday. “And it’s laughable that he would even imply that this is some kind of mainstream media conspiracy. He’s not outside the mainstream – he did a Universal Pictures movie last year, he did Minions, a children’s movie.

    “He is very much part of the mainstream media, he just happens to have a YouTube channel where he talks about conspiracy theories to an audience that laps it up. And, it may sound cynical, but I do think that he was building himself an audience for years of people that would then have great distrust of any publication that came forward with allegations. He knew it was coming for a long time.

    “And then, as for him denying that anything non-consensual happened. That’s not a surprise to me. These men always deny any of the allegations brought to them – I knew he would. What he didn’t deny was that he had a relationship with a 16-year-old.”..

    It seems foolish for this woman to comment on Brand’s work. If it’s that obvious to her that he would build up a fan base that would defend him, why didn’t she come forward before he’d done that?

    I think Brand is a moron, but that shouldn’t come into this. Very simply, tell the police what happened and let them investigate. Leave everything else at the door.
    Something of a double standard going on here.

    If Brand continues to publicly rubbish those who've made allegations against him, should we expect them to remain silent ?
    I'm just thinking what his defence team will say in court. They will ask them about these comments and suggest that it is politically motivated.

    From Brand's point of view, I'd recommend he denies and then keeps his gob shut.

    And the same goes for everyone else. The bloke on Sky News saying something like "innocent until proven guilty only applies to the state, the court of public opinion doesn't have to follow those rules" is very foolish.
  • https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/sep/19/sadiq-khan-says-hundreds-of-thousands-spent-on-anti-ulez-twitter-manipulation

    Whatever one's thoughts on ULEZ, the fact that someone spent £100ks spreading anti ULEZ messages and disinformation via fake social media accounts is worrying. Who was it, and what is their agenda?

    Is it a fact? The research he cites just says there are fake accounts but the monetary figure is pure speculation based on the cost of buying fake followers, but that wouldn’t apply if the fake accounts are all controlled by the same person.
  • ClippPClippP Posts: 1,904

    nico679 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    The civil service should always be totally neutral, and unfortunately on Brexit they failed to be so. (I voted Remain so I don't have an axe to grind).

    The civil service are clearly fed up with being used as a punchbag . The Tories attacks and constant undermining are hardly good for moral .
    Blair always used to say the civil service was hopelessly bureaucratic and not fit for purpose. Perhaps an incoming Starmer government will make radical demands of them.
    Blair was just a would-be dictator, though with a good PR machine behind him. A dreadful warning to us all about where the country was heading.
  • Penddu2 said:

    Ignore the hyped up petition on Welsh 20 mph limit - by first removing all signatures from outside of Wales. It will still be a high number though and as such will trigger a debate in the Senedd. This debate will highlight the facts that:
    1. The policy was initially promoted by the Conservatives
    2. Poorly communicated by Labour
    3. Modified to be more realistc by Plaid
    4. Generally supported by the majority, the emergency services and NHS
    5. Objected to by the same people who objected to wearing seatbelts, banning indoor smoking, Covid vaccinations etc
    6. Power to apply 30mph limits instead of 20mph lies with local councils (of varying political persuasions) and not with the Welsh Government. If you dont like a 20mph on a particular stretch of road take it up with your Council.

    I predict that an outcome of the debate will be to establish a national review of 20 mph implementation with a subcommittee established in every counci to agree specific routes. It will not result in change of policy.

    Good morning

    A very good post on the issue which I generally agree with especially paragraph 6
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,249
    A
    tlg86 said:

    Nigelb said:

    tlg86 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Russell Brand accuser calls his response to allegations ‘insulting’
    https://www.theguardian.com/culture/2023/sep/18/russell-brand-accuser-calls-his-response-to-allegations-insulting
    ...“It’s insulting,” Alice told BBC Radio 4’s Woman’s Hour on Monday. “And it’s laughable that he would even imply that this is some kind of mainstream media conspiracy. He’s not outside the mainstream – he did a Universal Pictures movie last year, he did Minions, a children’s movie.

    “He is very much part of the mainstream media, he just happens to have a YouTube channel where he talks about conspiracy theories to an audience that laps it up. And, it may sound cynical, but I do think that he was building himself an audience for years of people that would then have great distrust of any publication that came forward with allegations. He knew it was coming for a long time.

    “And then, as for him denying that anything non-consensual happened. That’s not a surprise to me. These men always deny any of the allegations brought to them – I knew he would. What he didn’t deny was that he had a relationship with a 16-year-old.”..

    It seems foolish for this woman to comment on Brand’s work. If it’s that obvious to her that he would build up a fan base that would defend him, why didn’t she come forward before he’d done that?

    I think Brand is a moron, but that shouldn’t come into this. Very simply, tell the police what happened and let them investigate. Leave everything else at the door.
    Something of a double standard going on here.

    If Brand continues to publicly rubbish those who've made allegations against him, should we expect them to remain silent ?
    I'm just thinking what his defence team will say in court. They will ask them about these comments and suggest that it is politically motivated.

    From Brand's point of view, I'd recommend he denies and then keeps his gob shut.

    And the same goes for everyone else. The bloke on Sky News saying something like "innocent until proven guilty only applies to the state, the court of public opinion doesn't have to follow those rules" is very foolish.
    Brand has produced plenty of material where he judges people as “guilty” for barely any reason at all.

    The idea that “innocent until proven guilty means shut up until after someone brings a court case and there’s a verdict” is just a stupid attempt at shutting down debate. Usually used by guilty people.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,175

    A

    tlg86 said:

    Nigelb said:

    tlg86 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Russell Brand accuser calls his response to allegations ‘insulting’
    https://www.theguardian.com/culture/2023/sep/18/russell-brand-accuser-calls-his-response-to-allegations-insulting
    ...“It’s insulting,” Alice told BBC Radio 4’s Woman’s Hour on Monday. “And it’s laughable that he would even imply that this is some kind of mainstream media conspiracy. He’s not outside the mainstream – he did a Universal Pictures movie last year, he did Minions, a children’s movie.

    “He is very much part of the mainstream media, he just happens to have a YouTube channel where he talks about conspiracy theories to an audience that laps it up. And, it may sound cynical, but I do think that he was building himself an audience for years of people that would then have great distrust of any publication that came forward with allegations. He knew it was coming for a long time.

    “And then, as for him denying that anything non-consensual happened. That’s not a surprise to me. These men always deny any of the allegations brought to them – I knew he would. What he didn’t deny was that he had a relationship with a 16-year-old.”..

    It seems foolish for this woman to comment on Brand’s work. If it’s that obvious to her that he would build up a fan base that would defend him, why didn’t she come forward before he’d done that?

    I think Brand is a moron, but that shouldn’t come into this. Very simply, tell the police what happened and let them investigate. Leave everything else at the door.
    Something of a double standard going on here.

    If Brand continues to publicly rubbish those who've made allegations against him, should we expect them to remain silent ?
    I'm just thinking what his defence team will say in court. They will ask them about these comments and suggest that it is politically motivated.

    From Brand's point of view, I'd recommend he denies and then keeps his gob shut.

    And the same goes for everyone else. The bloke on Sky News saying something like "innocent until proven guilty only applies to the state, the court of public opinion doesn't have to follow those rules" is very foolish.
    Brand has produced plenty of material where he judges people as “guilty” for barely any reason at all.

    The idea that “innocent until proven guilty means shut up until after someone brings a court case and there’s a verdict” is just a stupid attempt at shutting down debate. Usually used by guilty people.
    Benjamin Mendy and Alex Salmond have entered the conversation.

    I don't think saying "Brand behaves badly, therefore, people should be allowed to behave in the same way towards him" is a very good argument to be honest.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    tlg86 said:

    Nigelb said:

    tlg86 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Russell Brand accuser calls his response to allegations ‘insulting’
    https://www.theguardian.com/culture/2023/sep/18/russell-brand-accuser-calls-his-response-to-allegations-insulting
    ...“It’s insulting,” Alice told BBC Radio 4’s Woman’s Hour on Monday. “And it’s laughable that he would even imply that this is some kind of mainstream media conspiracy. He’s not outside the mainstream – he did a Universal Pictures movie last year, he did Minions, a children’s movie.

    “He is very much part of the mainstream media, he just happens to have a YouTube channel where he talks about conspiracy theories to an audience that laps it up. And, it may sound cynical, but I do think that he was building himself an audience for years of people that would then have great distrust of any publication that came forward with allegations. He knew it was coming for a long time.

    “And then, as for him denying that anything non-consensual happened. That’s not a surprise to me. These men always deny any of the allegations brought to them – I knew he would. What he didn’t deny was that he had a relationship with a 16-year-old.”..

    It seems foolish for this woman to comment on Brand’s work. If it’s that obvious to her that he would build up a fan base that would defend him, why didn’t she come forward before he’d done that?

    I think Brand is a moron, but that shouldn’t come into this. Very simply, tell the police what happened and let them investigate. Leave everything else at the door.
    Something of a double standard going on here.

    If Brand continues to publicly rubbish those who've made allegations against him, should we expect them to remain silent ?
    I'm just thinking what his defence team will say in court. They will ask them about these comments and suggest that it is politically motivated.

    From Brand's point of view, I'd recommend he denies and then keeps his gob shut.

    And the same goes for everyone else. The bloke on Sky News saying something like "innocent until proven guilty only applies to the state, the court of public opinion doesn't have to follow those rules" is very foolish.
    Unless and until the matter is sub judice, that's really a judgment for the individuals concerned.

    Certainly not one for me.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    tlg86 said:

    A

    tlg86 said:

    Nigelb said:

    tlg86 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Russell Brand accuser calls his response to allegations ‘insulting’
    https://www.theguardian.com/culture/2023/sep/18/russell-brand-accuser-calls-his-response-to-allegations-insulting
    ...“It’s insulting,” Alice told BBC Radio 4’s Woman’s Hour on Monday. “And it’s laughable that he would even imply that this is some kind of mainstream media conspiracy. He’s not outside the mainstream – he did a Universal Pictures movie last year, he did Minions, a children’s movie.

    “He is very much part of the mainstream media, he just happens to have a YouTube channel where he talks about conspiracy theories to an audience that laps it up. And, it may sound cynical, but I do think that he was building himself an audience for years of people that would then have great distrust of any publication that came forward with allegations. He knew it was coming for a long time.

    “And then, as for him denying that anything non-consensual happened. That’s not a surprise to me. These men always deny any of the allegations brought to them – I knew he would. What he didn’t deny was that he had a relationship with a 16-year-old.”..

    It seems foolish for this woman to comment on Brand’s work. If it’s that obvious to her that he would build up a fan base that would defend him, why didn’t she come forward before he’d done that?

    I think Brand is a moron, but that shouldn’t come into this. Very simply, tell the police what happened and let them investigate. Leave everything else at the door.
    Something of a double standard going on here.

    If Brand continues to publicly rubbish those who've made allegations against him, should we expect them to remain silent ?
    I'm just thinking what his defence team will say in court. They will ask them about these comments and suggest that it is politically motivated.

    From Brand's point of view, I'd recommend he denies and then keeps his gob shut.

    And the same goes for everyone else. The bloke on Sky News saying something like "innocent until proven guilty only applies to the state, the court of public opinion doesn't have to follow those rules" is very foolish.
    Brand has produced plenty of material where he judges people as “guilty” for barely any reason at all.

    The idea that “innocent until proven guilty means shut up until after someone brings a court case and there’s a verdict” is just a stupid attempt at shutting down debate. Usually used by guilty people.
    Benjamin Mendy and Alex Salmond have entered the conversation.

    I don't think saying "Brand behaves badly, therefore, people should be allowed to behave in the same way towards him" is a very good argument to be honest.
    Are you suggesting they be gagged ?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,249
    tlg86 said:

    A

    tlg86 said:

    Nigelb said:

    tlg86 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Russell Brand accuser calls his response to allegations ‘insulting’
    https://www.theguardian.com/culture/2023/sep/18/russell-brand-accuser-calls-his-response-to-allegations-insulting
    ...“It’s insulting,” Alice told BBC Radio 4’s Woman’s Hour on Monday. “And it’s laughable that he would even imply that this is some kind of mainstream media conspiracy. He’s not outside the mainstream – he did a Universal Pictures movie last year, he did Minions, a children’s movie.

    “He is very much part of the mainstream media, he just happens to have a YouTube channel where he talks about conspiracy theories to an audience that laps it up. And, it may sound cynical, but I do think that he was building himself an audience for years of people that would then have great distrust of any publication that came forward with allegations. He knew it was coming for a long time.

    “And then, as for him denying that anything non-consensual happened. That’s not a surprise to me. These men always deny any of the allegations brought to them – I knew he would. What he didn’t deny was that he had a relationship with a 16-year-old.”..

    It seems foolish for this woman to comment on Brand’s work. If it’s that obvious to her that he would build up a fan base that would defend him, why didn’t she come forward before he’d done that?

    I think Brand is a moron, but that shouldn’t come into this. Very simply, tell the police what happened and let them investigate. Leave everything else at the door.
    Something of a double standard going on here.

    If Brand continues to publicly rubbish those who've made allegations against him, should we expect them to remain silent ?
    I'm just thinking what his defence team will say in court. They will ask them about these comments and suggest that it is politically motivated.

    From Brand's point of view, I'd recommend he denies and then keeps his gob shut.

    And the same goes for everyone else. The bloke on Sky News saying something like "innocent until proven guilty only applies to the state, the court of public opinion doesn't have to follow those rules" is very foolish.
    Brand has produced plenty of material where he judges people as “guilty” for barely any reason at all.

    The idea that “innocent until proven guilty means shut up until after someone brings a court case and there’s a verdict” is just a stupid attempt at shutting down debate. Usually used by guilty people.
    Benjamin Mendy and Alex Salmond have entered the conversation.

    I don't think saying "Brand behaves badly, therefore, people should be allowed to behave in the same way towards him" is a very good argument to be honest.
    The idea that all debate should be shut down until after a trial, if any, is very convenient, for some people.

    As #MeToo showed, the public uproar is part of getting the trial in the first place.

    I suggest you read Private Eye on any number of scandals. Years of police and prosecutors ignoring evidence. Strangely, after it has been on the front page for a couple of days, they wake up.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,812

    Watched the 2nd part of State of Chaos.

    It doesn't reflect well on Boris, but it also doesn't reflect well on the Civil Service either. Many of those interviewed came across as quite arrogant, particularly Lord MacDonald, with a "this is how we've always done things attitude"

    I'd be interested to know if they think the system is working better now. Clearly, Rishi is probably more to the Civil Service's liking but the Government is failing to deliver on his pledges.

    I'm of the view that actually the system did actually need a really good shake up but the tragedy is that Boris and Truss weren't able to manage it due to personal failings (lack of seriousness and organisation from Boris, lack of communication skills from Truss).

    And so now we will go back to insiders who will fail, but fail in an acceptable manner.

    Much of Cummings critique of the civil service was and remains valid. The lack of understanding of statistics, maths and analytical skills, the pompous and pointless emphasis on precedent, hallowed procedures and the lack of technical skills for anything complicated. Unfortunately, and as per usual, his solutions did not work through to meaningful improvements. It was an opportunity to improve governance in this country but neither Cummings nor Boris had the stamina for it.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,812
    tlg86 said:

    Nigelb said:

    tlg86 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Russell Brand accuser calls his response to allegations ‘insulting’
    https://www.theguardian.com/culture/2023/sep/18/russell-brand-accuser-calls-his-response-to-allegations-insulting
    ...“It’s insulting,” Alice told BBC Radio 4’s Woman’s Hour on Monday. “And it’s laughable that he would even imply that this is some kind of mainstream media conspiracy. He’s not outside the mainstream – he did a Universal Pictures movie last year, he did Minions, a children’s movie.

    “He is very much part of the mainstream media, he just happens to have a YouTube channel where he talks about conspiracy theories to an audience that laps it up. And, it may sound cynical, but I do think that he was building himself an audience for years of people that would then have great distrust of any publication that came forward with allegations. He knew it was coming for a long time.

    “And then, as for him denying that anything non-consensual happened. That’s not a surprise to me. These men always deny any of the allegations brought to them – I knew he would. What he didn’t deny was that he had a relationship with a 16-year-old.”..

    It seems foolish for this woman to comment on Brand’s work. If it’s that obvious to her that he would build up a fan base that would defend him, why didn’t she come forward before he’d done that?

    I think Brand is a moron, but that shouldn’t come into this. Very simply, tell the police what happened and let them investigate. Leave everything else at the door.
    Something of a double standard going on here.

    If Brand continues to publicly rubbish those who've made allegations against him, should we expect them to remain silent ?
    I'm just thinking what his defence team will say in court. They will ask them about these comments and suggest that it is politically motivated.

    From Brand's point of view, I'd recommend he denies and then keeps his gob shut.

    And the same goes for everyone else. The bloke on Sky News saying something like "innocent until proven guilty only applies to the state, the court of public opinion doesn't have to follow those rules" is very foolish.
    But probably correct. Brand is already condemned in the minds of most and even acquittal at trial won't change that. Cf Ryan Giggs and Greenwood.
  • The Welsh 20 mph petition is now really picking up steam. 109,135.

    I assume because a lot of Welsh drivers have only just made it home.

    Drivers in Wales have experienced the reality of default 20mph and do not like it

    It doesn't have to be this way as there is a case for 20mph round schools, hospitals and congested areas, but blanket no
    In England there is no way to enforce 20mph limits. There aren't any police to stand on every 20mph road with a laser gun, there isn't the money for speed cameras, there isn't even money to build restrictions to force 20mph such as humps or chicanes.

    In short it is window-dressing trying to encourage drivers to slow down. An effective advisory limit. So I can't see how Wales will be any different and I expect that most drivers will drive closer to 30mph than 20mph.
  • DavidL said:

    tlg86 said:

    Nigelb said:

    tlg86 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Russell Brand accuser calls his response to allegations ‘insulting’
    https://www.theguardian.com/culture/2023/sep/18/russell-brand-accuser-calls-his-response-to-allegations-insulting
    ...“It’s insulting,” Alice told BBC Radio 4’s Woman’s Hour on Monday. “And it’s laughable that he would even imply that this is some kind of mainstream media conspiracy. He’s not outside the mainstream – he did a Universal Pictures movie last year, he did Minions, a children’s movie.

    “He is very much part of the mainstream media, he just happens to have a YouTube channel where he talks about conspiracy theories to an audience that laps it up. And, it may sound cynical, but I do think that he was building himself an audience for years of people that would then have great distrust of any publication that came forward with allegations. He knew it was coming for a long time.

    “And then, as for him denying that anything non-consensual happened. That’s not a surprise to me. These men always deny any of the allegations brought to them – I knew he would. What he didn’t deny was that he had a relationship with a 16-year-old.”..

    It seems foolish for this woman to comment on Brand’s work. If it’s that obvious to her that he would build up a fan base that would defend him, why didn’t she come forward before he’d done that?

    I think Brand is a moron, but that shouldn’t come into this. Very simply, tell the police what happened and let them investigate. Leave everything else at the door.
    Something of a double standard going on here.

    If Brand continues to publicly rubbish those who've made allegations against him, should we expect them to remain silent ?
    I'm just thinking what his defence team will say in court. They will ask them about these comments and suggest that it is politically motivated.

    From Brand's point of view, I'd recommend he denies and then keeps his gob shut.

    And the same goes for everyone else. The bloke on Sky News saying something like "innocent until proven guilty only applies to the state, the court of public opinion doesn't have to follow those rules" is very foolish.
    But probably correct. Brand is already condemned in the minds of most and even acquittal at trial won't change that. Cf Ryan Giggs and Greenwood.
    I like the BBC style attempt at balance by highlighting both a left winger and a right winger there.
  • kamskikamski Posts: 5,190

    tlg86 said:

    A

    tlg86 said:

    Nigelb said:

    tlg86 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Russell Brand accuser calls his response to allegations ‘insulting’
    https://www.theguardian.com/culture/2023/sep/18/russell-brand-accuser-calls-his-response-to-allegations-insulting
    ...“It’s insulting,” Alice told BBC Radio 4’s Woman’s Hour on Monday. “And it’s laughable that he would even imply that this is some kind of mainstream media conspiracy. He’s not outside the mainstream – he did a Universal Pictures movie last year, he did Minions, a children’s movie.

    “He is very much part of the mainstream media, he just happens to have a YouTube channel where he talks about conspiracy theories to an audience that laps it up. And, it may sound cynical, but I do think that he was building himself an audience for years of people that would then have great distrust of any publication that came forward with allegations. He knew it was coming for a long time.

    “And then, as for him denying that anything non-consensual happened. That’s not a surprise to me. These men always deny any of the allegations brought to them – I knew he would. What he didn’t deny was that he had a relationship with a 16-year-old.”..

    It seems foolish for this woman to comment on Brand’s work. If it’s that obvious to her that he would build up a fan base that would defend him, why didn’t she come forward before he’d done that?

    I think Brand is a moron, but that shouldn’t come into this. Very simply, tell the police what happened and let them investigate. Leave everything else at the door.
    Something of a double standard going on here.

    If Brand continues to publicly rubbish those who've made allegations against him, should we expect them to remain silent ?
    I'm just thinking what his defence team will say in court. They will ask them about these comments and suggest that it is politically motivated.

    From Brand's point of view, I'd recommend he denies and then keeps his gob shut.

    And the same goes for everyone else. The bloke on Sky News saying something like "innocent until proven guilty only applies to the state, the court of public opinion doesn't have to follow those rules" is very foolish.
    Brand has produced plenty of material where he judges people as “guilty” for barely any reason at all.

    The idea that “innocent until proven guilty means shut up until after someone brings a court case and there’s a verdict” is just a stupid attempt at shutting down debate. Usually used by guilty people.
    Benjamin Mendy and Alex Salmond have entered the conversation.

    I don't think saying "Brand behaves badly, therefore, people should be allowed to behave in the same way towards him" is a very good argument to be honest.
    The idea that all debate should be shut down until after a trial, if any, is very convenient, for some people.

    As #MeToo showed, the public uproar is part of getting the trial in the first place.

    I suggest you read Private Eye on any number of scandals. Years of police and prosecutors ignoring evidence. Strangely, after it has been on the front page for a couple of days, they wake up.
    Also I'm not so sure what is wrong with the woman's comments quoted above. Apart from the speculation about Brand cynically building up a type of audience it seems just factual.
  • DavidL said:

    Watched the 2nd part of State of Chaos.

    It doesn't reflect well on Boris, but it also doesn't reflect well on the Civil Service either. Many of those interviewed came across as quite arrogant, particularly Lord MacDonald, with a "this is how we've always done things attitude"

    I'd be interested to know if they think the system is working better now. Clearly, Rishi is probably more to the Civil Service's liking but the Government is failing to deliver on his pledges.

    I'm of the view that actually the system did actually need a really good shake up but the tragedy is that Boris and Truss weren't able to manage it due to personal failings (lack of seriousness and organisation from Boris, lack of communication skills from Truss).

    And so now we will go back to insiders who will fail, but fail in an acceptable manner.

    Much of Cummings critique of the civil service was and remains valid. The lack of understanding of statistics, maths and analytical skills, the pompous and pointless emphasis on precedent, hallowed procedures and the lack of technical skills for anything complicated. Unfortunately, and as per usual, his solutions did not work through to meaningful improvements. It was an opportunity to improve governance in this country but neither Cummings nor Boris had the stamina for it.
    Surely a Boris government was the ideal opportunity to deepen our pompousity, lack of technical skills and ignorance of the complex rather than to reverse them? Sure he was well placed to be willing to ignore precedent, but not the others.
  • EPG said:

    The last person in charge to think the civil service would be better moving fast and breaking thingswas the very famous and effective reformer Liz Truss, notably sacking the head civil servant in the Treasury during her thousand hour reich.

    This 20 limit should be treated as a case of moving fast and breaking things.

    If in 6 months you can show how many lives are saved or how much time is lost you can make a decision as to whether to continue with it. It should be set up that way from the start with as little expense in signage as possible.

    More experiments, less dogma!


    Personally I'm not convinced a blanket 20 is a good thing but I can't really see the problem with it in most residential areas so lets try it and see...
    As I pointed out above, this is non-enforceable anyway. A few people will get nicked but the vast majority will not.

    Back in the 1970s people were upset about seat belts being imposed. Drink drive laws. A few people nicked, but the rest persuaded that they needed to adopt the new rules because society evolved past the point where driving home from the pub with no seatbelt was acceptable.

    20mph in a dense urban area is what they have in Spain and from what I can see it is largely stuck to. Not because of law enforcement, because society wants to. I'm sure that we will see more speed limit changes where the 20mph area is smaller - they've just changed all the existing 30mph signs haven't they? To get it done as opposed to spending years setting new speed zones? I anticipate that will follow, and people will accept it.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,812
    Foxy said:
    The fact that that embarrassment beat Rishi in a vote of the party membership is a stain on the party and indeed Rishi that he must be desperate to gloss over. This is the same party membership who preferred IDS to Ken Clarke which I thought at the time was possibly the ultimate in delusion but, given that they were in office at the time and picking our PM, this tops even that.

    Not fit for purpose.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    @louisa_compton

    BREAKING: YouTube has suspended the monetisation of Russell Brand's channel for 'violating our Creator Responsibility policy' following #C4dispatches investigation with
    @thetimes
    - stream Russell Brand - In Plain Sight now
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,633
    Cyclefree said:

    Nigelb said:

    tlg86 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Russell Brand accuser calls his response to allegations ‘insulting’
    https://www.theguardian.com/culture/2023/sep/18/russell-brand-accuser-calls-his-response-to-allegations-insulting
    ...“It’s insulting,” Alice told BBC Radio 4’s Woman’s Hour on Monday. “And it’s laughable that he would even imply that this is some kind of mainstream media conspiracy. He’s not outside the mainstream – he did a Universal Pictures movie last year, he did Minions, a children’s movie.

    “He is very much part of the mainstream media, he just happens to have a YouTube channel where he talks about conspiracy theories to an audience that laps it up. And, it may sound cynical, but I do think that he was building himself an audience for years of people that would then have great distrust of any publication that came forward with allegations. He knew it was coming for a long time.

    “And then, as for him denying that anything non-consensual happened. That’s not a surprise to me. These men always deny any of the allegations brought to them – I knew he would. What he didn’t deny was that he had a relationship with a 16-year-old.”..

    It seems foolish for this woman to comment on Brand’s work. If it’s that obvious to her that he would build up a fan base that would defend him, why didn’t she come forward before he’d done that?

    I think Brand is a moron, but that shouldn’t come into this. Very simply, tell the police what happened and let them investigate. Leave everything else at the door.
    Something of a double standard going on here.

    If Brand continues to publicly rubbish those who've made allegations against him, should we expect them to remain silent ?

    A

    tlg86 said:

    Nigelb said:

    tlg86 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Russell Brand accuser calls his response to allegations ‘insulting’
    https://www.theguardian.com/culture/2023/sep/18/russell-brand-accuser-calls-his-response-to-allegations-insulting
    ...“It’s insulting,” Alice told BBC Radio 4’s Woman’s Hour on Monday. “And it’s laughable that he would even imply that this is some kind of mainstream media conspiracy. He’s not outside the mainstream – he did a Universal Pictures movie last year, he did Minions, a children’s movie.

    “He is very much part of the mainstream media, he just happens to have a YouTube channel where he talks about conspiracy theories to an audience that laps it up. And, it may sound cynical, but I do think that he was building himself an audience for years of people that would then have great distrust of any publication that came forward with allegations. He knew it was coming for a long time.

    “And then, as for him denying that anything non-consensual happened. That’s not a surprise to me. These men always deny any of the allegations brought to them – I knew he would. What he didn’t deny was that he had a relationship with a 16-year-old.”..

    It seems foolish for this woman to comment on Brand’s work. If it’s that obvious to her that he would build up a fan base that would defend him, why didn’t she come forward before he’d done that?

    I think Brand is a moron, but that shouldn’t come into this. Very simply, tell the police what happened and let them investigate. Leave everything else at the door.
    Something of a double standard going on here.

    If Brand continues to publicly rubbish those who've made allegations against him, should we expect them to remain silent ?
    I'm just thinking what his defence team will say in court. They will ask them about these comments and suggest that it is politically motivated.

    From Brand's point of view, I'd recommend he denies and then keeps his gob shut.

    And the same goes for everyone else. The bloke on Sky News saying something like "innocent until proven guilty only applies to the state, the court of public opinion doesn't have to follow those rules" is very foolish.
    Brand has produced plenty of material where he judges people as “guilty” for barely any reason at all.

    The idea that “innocent until proven guilty means shut up until after someone brings a court case and there’s a verdict” is just a stupid attempt at shutting down debate. Usually used by guilty people.
    The idea that this rule - which applies once someone is charged of a criminal offence - is a reason not to debate a piece of investigative journalism or discuss the way women are ignored when they speak about behaviour which is all too common in very many parts of life is nonsense. I very much wish that we had a more effective policing and criminal justice system in which women could have confidence. But we don't. Investigative journalism sometimes fills this gap - even though that too risks creating another set of problems.

    But it does feel as if a lot of Brand supporters are latching onto a mantra they barely understand to stop any discussion about male misbehaviour and how unpleasant it makes life for women. For some it appears to have given them an excuse to attack women in a way which explains why women are often reluctant to go to the authorities when men mistreat them.

    We are entitled to take a view about people based on a whole range of material not simply whether they've been in a court of law.

    As bankers have heard often enough from me, the question is not just whether something is legal but whether it is wise, not just whether they can do something but whether they should. Quite a few men should ask it of themselves in their behaviour to women. Decent conduct depends on something more than not merely committing a criminal offence. Assuming we value decency which I sometimes wonder about.
    Looks like cleaning out the Bad 'Uns from the Met is a slow job. Around 1 in 30 suspended or on amended duties.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/sep/19/police-met-officers-suspended-or-restricted-duties
  • AlistairMAlistairM Posts: 2,005
    The difficult part is that a consensual sexual relationship between a 30yo and 16yo is not a crime as long as there is no position of authority involved. However, if a 16yo boy has sex with a 15yo girl though that is a crime but really should it be?

    I think we need to change the law around the age of consent to take comparative ages into consideration. For example, maybe something based on the age of the youngest participant in a sexual activity:
    - If 14yo, other participant(s) maximum age is 16yo
    - If 15yo, other participant(s) maximum age is 18yo
    - If 16yo, other participant(s) maximum age is 20yo
    - If 17yo, other participant(s) maximum age is 25yo
    - At 18yo then no restriction on maximum age

    This would make a 30yo having a relationship with a 16yo a crime but allow those 15yo/16yo relationships. A far more sensible solution in my view.
  • The Welsh 20 mph petition is now really picking up steam. 109,135.

    I assume because a lot of Welsh drivers have only just made it home.

    Drivers in Wales have experienced the reality of default 20mph and do not like it

    It doesn't have to be this way as there is a case for 20mph round schools, hospitals and congested areas, but blanket no
    In England there is no way to enforce 20mph limits. There aren't any police to stand on every 20mph road with a laser gun, there isn't the money for speed cameras, there isn't even money to build restrictions to force 20mph such as humps or chicanes.

    In short it is window-dressing trying to encourage drivers to slow down. An effective advisory limit. So I can't see how Wales will be any different and I expect that most drivers will drive closer to 30mph than 20mph.
    I hope common sense will prevail and as @Penddu2 said earlier ( see 7.15am) the petition will require a Senedd discussion with the likely confirmation that powers will be vested in LAs

    Mind you on the day fire stations are threatened with closures in Wales, the fire service are being enrolled to assist in enforcement
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,249
    tlg86 said:

    A

    tlg86 said:

    Nigelb said:

    tlg86 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Russell Brand accuser calls his response to allegations ‘insulting’
    https://www.theguardian.com/culture/2023/sep/18/russell-brand-accuser-calls-his-response-to-allegations-insulting
    ...“It’s insulting,” Alice told BBC Radio 4’s Woman’s Hour on Monday. “And it’s laughable that he would even imply that this is some kind of mainstream media conspiracy. He’s not outside the mainstream – he did a Universal Pictures movie last year, he did Minions, a children’s movie.

    “He is very much part of the mainstream media, he just happens to have a YouTube channel where he talks about conspiracy theories to an audience that laps it up. And, it may sound cynical, but I do think that he was building himself an audience for years of people that would then have great distrust of any publication that came forward with allegations. He knew it was coming for a long time.

    “And then, as for him denying that anything non-consensual happened. That’s not a surprise to me. These men always deny any of the allegations brought to them – I knew he would. What he didn’t deny was that he had a relationship with a 16-year-old.”..

    It seems foolish for this woman to comment on Brand’s work. If it’s that obvious to her that he would build up a fan base that would defend him, why didn’t she come forward before he’d done that?

    I think Brand is a moron, but that shouldn’t come into this. Very simply, tell the police what happened and let them investigate. Leave everything else at the door.
    Something of a double standard going on here.

    If Brand continues to publicly rubbish those who've made allegations against him, should we expect them to remain silent ?
    I'm just thinking what his defence team will say in court. They will ask them about these comments and suggest that it is politically motivated.

    From Brand's point of view, I'd recommend he denies and then keeps his gob shut.

    And the same goes for everyone else. The bloke on Sky News saying something like "innocent until proven guilty only applies to the state, the court of public opinion doesn't have to follow those rules" is very foolish.
    Brand has produced plenty of material where he judges people as “guilty” for barely any reason at all.

    The idea that “innocent until proven guilty means shut up until after someone brings a court case and there’s a verdict” is just a stupid attempt at shutting down debate. Usually used by guilty people.
    Benjamin Mendy and Alex Salmond have entered the conversation.

    I don't think saying "Brand behaves badly, therefore, people should be allowed to behave in the same way towards him" is a very good argument to be honest.
    The idea that all d
    DavidL said:

    Watched the 2nd part of State of Chaos.

    It doesn't reflect well on Boris, but it also doesn't reflect well on the Civil Service either. Many of those interviewed came across as quite arrogant, particularly Lord MacDonald, with a "this is how we've always done things attitude"

    I'd be interested to know if they think the system is working better now. Clearly, Rishi is probably more to the Civil Service's liking but the Government is failing to deliver on his pledges.

    I'm of the view that actually the system did actually need a really good shake up but the tragedy is that Boris and Truss weren't able to manage it due to personal failings (lack of seriousness and organisation from Boris, lack of communication skills from Truss).

    And so now we will go back to insiders who will fail, but fail in an acceptable manner.

    Much of Cummings critique of the civil service was and remains valid. The lack of understanding of statistics, maths and analytical skills, the pompous and pointless emphasis on precedent, hallowed procedures and the lack of technical skills for anything complicated. Unfortunately, and as per usual, his solutions did not work through to meaningful improvements. It was an opportunity to improve governance in this country but neither Cummings nor Boris had the stamina for it.
    A favourite was being told by a high flyer in the Cabinet Office that IT projects had to be done with waterfall methodology. Anything else was anathema. He even used the word “incompetent”.

    The high flyer in question had no training in (or understanding of) IT project management.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,310
    tlg86 said:

    A

    tlg86 said:

    Nigelb said:

    tlg86 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Russell Brand accuser calls his response to allegations ‘insulting’
    https://www.theguardian.com/culture/2023/sep/18/russell-brand-accuser-calls-his-response-to-allegations-insulting
    ...“It’s insulting,” Alice told BBC Radio 4’s Woman’s Hour on Monday. “And it’s laughable that he would even imply that this is some kind of mainstream media conspiracy. He’s not outside the mainstream – he did a Universal Pictures movie last year, he did Minions, a children’s movie.

    “He is very much part of the mainstream media, he just happens to have a YouTube channel where he talks about conspiracy theories to an audience that laps it up. And, it may sound cynical, but I do think that he was building himself an audience for years of people that would then have great distrust of any publication that came forward with allegations. He knew it was coming for a long time.

    “And then, as for him denying that anything non-consensual happened. That’s not a surprise to me. These men always deny any of the allegations brought to them – I knew he would. What he didn’t deny was that he had a relationship with a 16-year-old.”..

    It seems foolish for this woman to comment on Brand’s work. If it’s that obvious to her that he would build up a fan base that would defend him, why didn’t she come forward before he’d done that?

    I think Brand is a moron, but that shouldn’t come into this. Very simply, tell the police what happened and let them investigate. Leave everything else at the door.
    Something of a double standard going on here.

    If Brand continues to publicly rubbish those who've made allegations against him, should we expect them to remain silent ?
    I'm just thinking what his defence team will say in court. They will ask them about these comments and suggest that it is politically motivated.

    From Brand's point of view, I'd recommend he denies and then keeps his gob shut.

    And the same goes for everyone else. The bloke on Sky News saying something like "innocent until proven guilty only applies to the state, the court of public opinion doesn't have to follow those rules" is very foolish.
    Brand has produced plenty of material where he judges people as “guilty” for barely any reason at all.

    The idea that “innocent until proven guilty means shut up until after someone brings a court case and there’s a verdict” is just a stupid attempt at shutting down debate. Usually used by guilty people.
    Benjamin Mendy and Alex Salmond have entered the conversation.

    I don't think saying "Brand behaves badly, therefore, people should be allowed to behave in the same way towards him" is a very good argument to be honest.
    Commenting in a radio interview is not remotely the same as the sort of behaviour Brand has been accused of.
  • DavidL said:

    Watched the 2nd part of State of Chaos.

    It doesn't reflect well on Boris, but it also doesn't reflect well on the Civil Service either. Many of those interviewed came across as quite arrogant, particularly Lord MacDonald, with a "this is how we've always done things attitude"

    I'd be interested to know if they think the system is working better now. Clearly, Rishi is probably more to the Civil Service's liking but the Government is failing to deliver on his pledges.

    I'm of the view that actually the system did actually need a really good shake up but the tragedy is that Boris and Truss weren't able to manage it due to personal failings (lack of seriousness and organisation from Boris, lack of communication skills from Truss).

    And so now we will go back to insiders who will fail, but fail in an acceptable manner.

    Much of Cummings critique of the civil service was and remains valid. The lack of understanding of statistics, maths and analytical skills, the pompous and pointless emphasis on precedent, hallowed procedures and the lack of technical skills for anything complicated. Unfortunately, and as per usual, his solutions did not work through to meaningful improvements. It was an opportunity to improve governance in this country but neither Cummings nor Boris had the stamina for it.
    The problem was that Cummings and Johnson didn't actually want to reform the civil service, they just didn't want them in the way. The fact that Cummings successfully articulated the civil service's failings in furtherance of these efforts shouldn't be read as implying he had any ideas for improvement, let alone the nous to pursue them. They were just two posh boys used to getting everything they wanted who didn't like anyone saying no to them.
    See also Cummings's attitude to Johnson; exploit him to win a referendum and an election, but hate him when he insists on wanting to be more than a cypher.

    (What I want now is a Wodehouse parody where Jeeves gaslights Bertie into doing his will.)

    But "democracy".
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    DavidL said:

    Much of Cummings critique of the civil service was and remains valid.

    Ummmm, no.

    The same guy who wrongly thought that being a member of the EU was 'holding us back' thought that the civil service was also 'holding us back'

    Wrong on both counts.
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 5,398
    tlg86 said:

    Nigelb said:

    tlg86 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Russell Brand accuser calls his response to allegations ‘insulting’
    https://www.theguardian.com/culture/2023/sep/18/russell-brand-accuser-calls-his-response-to-allegations-insulting
    ...“It’s insulting,” Alice told BBC Radio 4’s Woman’s Hour on Monday. “And it’s laughable that he would even imply that this is some kind of mainstream media conspiracy. He’s not outside the mainstream – he did a Universal Pictures movie last year, he did Minions, a children’s movie.

    “He is very much part of the mainstream media, he just happens to have a YouTube channel where he talks about conspiracy theories to an audience that laps it up. And, it may sound cynical, but I do think that he was building himself an audience for years of people that would then have great distrust of any publication that came forward with allegations. He knew it was coming for a long time.

    “And then, as for him denying that anything non-consensual happened. That’s not a surprise to me. These men always deny any of the allegations brought to them – I knew he would. What he didn’t deny was that he had a relationship with a 16-year-old.”..

    It seems foolish for this woman to comment on Brand’s work. If it’s that obvious to her that he would build up a fan base that would defend him, why didn’t she come forward before he’d done that?

    I think Brand is a moron, but that shouldn’t come into this. Very simply, tell the police what happened and let them investigate. Leave everything else at the door.
    Something of a double standard going on here.

    If Brand continues to publicly rubbish those who've made allegations against him, should we expect them to remain silent ?
    I'm just thinking what his defence team will say in court. They will ask them about these comments and suggest that it is politically motivated.

    From Brand's point of view, I'd recommend he denies and then keeps his gob shut.

    And the same goes for everyone else. The bloke on Sky News saying something like "innocent until proven guilty only applies to the state, the court of public opinion doesn't have to follow those rules" is very foolish.
    One way of looking at the situation with Russell Brand is that the complainants are being used by the media to make this in to more and more of a story. It is a sex scandal so this always generates clicks/sells newspapers. The likely eventual trial will unearth lots more interesting and reportable detail - the media are winning whatever the ultimate outcome, if it is an acquittal then it is a failing of the justice system, if it is a conviction then it is a moral victory. All the 'media commentary' can be interpreted this way.

  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,051

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/sep/19/sadiq-khan-says-hundreds-of-thousands-spent-on-anti-ulez-twitter-manipulation

    Whatever one's thoughts on ULEZ, the fact that someone spent £100ks spreading anti ULEZ messages and disinformation via fake social media accounts is worrying. Who was it, and what is their agenda?

    Is it a fact? The research he cites just says there are fake accounts but the monetary figure is pure speculation based on the cost of buying fake followers, but that wouldn’t apply if the fake accounts are all controlled by the same person.
    How could this one person get control of so many fake accounts?
  • eekeek Posts: 28,368

    The Welsh 20 mph petition is now really picking up steam. 109,135.

    I assume because a lot of Welsh drivers have only just made it home.

    Drivers in Wales have experienced the reality of default 20mph and do not like it

    It doesn't have to be this way as there is a case for 20mph round schools, hospitals and congested areas, but blanket no
    In England there is no way to enforce 20mph limits. There aren't any police to stand on every 20mph road with a laser gun, there isn't the money for speed cameras, there isn't even money to build restrictions to force 20mph such as humps or chicanes.

    In short it is window-dressing trying to encourage drivers to slow down. An effective advisory limit. So I can't see how Wales will be any different and I expect that most drivers will drive closer to 30mph than 20mph.
    I hope common sense will prevail and as @Penddu2 said earlier ( see 7.15am) the petition will require a Senedd discussion with the likely confirmation that powers will be vested in LAs

    Mind you on the day fire stations are threatened with closures in Wales, the fire service are being enrolled to assist in enforcement
    one way to make fire station closures popular - make the people who work there hated..
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,249
    Cyclefree said:


    A

    tlg86 said:

    Nigelb said:

    tlg86 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Russell Brand accuser calls his response to allegations ‘insulting’
    https://www.theguardian.com/culture/2023/sep/18/russell-brand-accuser-calls-his-response-to-allegations-insulting
    ...“It’s insulting,” Alice told BBC Radio 4’s Woman’s Hour on Monday. “And it’s laughable that he would even imply that this is some kind of mainstream media conspiracy. He’s not outside the mainstream – he did a Universal Pictures movie last year, he did Minions, a children’s movie.

    “He is very much part of the mainstream media, he just happens to have a YouTube channel where he talks about conspiracy theories to an audience that laps it up. And, it may sound cynical, but I do think that he was building himself an audience for years of people that would then have great distrust of any publication that came forward with allegations. He knew it was coming for a long time.

    “And then, as for him denying that anything non-consensual happened. That’s not a surprise to me. These men always deny any of the allegations brought to them – I knew he would. What he didn’t deny was that he had a relationship with a 16-year-old.”..

    It seems foolish for this woman to comment on Brand’s work. If it’s that obvious to her that he would build up a fan base that would defend him, why didn’t she come forward before he’d done that?

    I think Brand is a moron, but that shouldn’t come into this. Very simply, tell the police what happened and let them investigate. Leave everything else at the door.
    Something of a double standard going on here.

    If Brand continues to publicly rubbish those who've made allegations against him, should we expect them to remain silent ?
    I'm just thinking what his defence team will say in court. They will ask them about these comments and suggest that it is politically motivated.

    From Brand's point of view, I'd recommend he denies and then keeps his gob shut.

    And the same goes for everyone else. The bloke on Sky News saying something like "innocent until proven guilty only applies to the state, the court of public opinion doesn't have to follow those rules" is very foolish.
    Brand has produced plenty of material where he judges people as “guilty” for barely any reason at all.

    The idea that “innocent until proven guilty means shut up until after someone brings a court case and there’s a verdict” is just a stupid attempt at shutting down debate. Usually used by guilty people.
    The idea that this rule - which applies once someone is charged of a criminal offence - is a reason not to debate a piece of investigative journalism or discuss the way women are ignored when they speak about behaviour which is all too common in very many parts of life is nonsense. I very much wish that we had a more effective policing and criminal justice system in which women could have confidence. But we don't. Investigative journalism sometimes fills this gap - even though that too risks creating another set of problems.

    But it does feel as if a lot of Brand supporters are latching onto a mantra they barely understand to stop any discussion about male misbehaviour and how unpleasant it makes life for women. For some it appears to have given them an excuse to attack women in a way which explains why women are often reluctant to go to the authorities when men mistreat them.

    We are entitled to take a view about people based on a whole range of material not simply whether they've been in a court of law.

    As bankers have heard often enough from me, the question is not just whether something is legal but whether it is wise, not just whether they can do something but whether they should. Quite a few men should ask it of themselves in their behaviour to women. Decent conduct depends on something more than not merely committing a criminal offence. Assuming we value decency which I sometimes wonder about.
    Many, many times, I’ve heard the cry - “but it’s legal”.

    Legality isn’t a shield against moral criticism.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,812

    DavidL said:

    Watched the 2nd part of State of Chaos.

    It doesn't reflect well on Boris, but it also doesn't reflect well on the Civil Service either. Many of those interviewed came across as quite arrogant, particularly Lord MacDonald, with a "this is how we've always done things attitude"

    I'd be interested to know if they think the system is working better now. Clearly, Rishi is probably more to the Civil Service's liking but the Government is failing to deliver on his pledges.

    I'm of the view that actually the system did actually need a really good shake up but the tragedy is that Boris and Truss weren't able to manage it due to personal failings (lack of seriousness and organisation from Boris, lack of communication skills from Truss).

    And so now we will go back to insiders who will fail, but fail in an acceptable manner.

    Much of Cummings critique of the civil service was and remains valid. The lack of understanding of statistics, maths and analytical skills, the pompous and pointless emphasis on precedent, hallowed procedures and the lack of technical skills for anything complicated. Unfortunately, and as per usual, his solutions did not work through to meaningful improvements. It was an opportunity to improve governance in this country but neither Cummings nor Boris had the stamina for it.
    The problem was that Cummings and Johnson didn't actually want to reform the civil service, they just didn't want them in the way. The fact that Cummings successfully articulated the civil service's failings in furtherance of these efforts shouldn't be read as implying he had any ideas for improvement, let alone the nous to pursue them. They were just two posh boys used to getting everything they wanted who didn't like anyone saying no to them.
    Its certainly true that they did not want them in the way. It is also the case, I think, that they were frustrated by both the lack of clear advice and the quality of the advice that they were given. I think Cummings idea of a group of iconoclasts with strong mathematical skills was one that might have been usefully pursued. A good friend of mine, who is very much not a Tory, was seriously interested in that at the time but, wisely, stayed with his professorship.

    We saw throughout the Covid pandemic the very poor quality of advice given; the failure to recognise bias and inherent caution, the failure to quantify consequences, the determination to apply simplistic mathematical models (exponential growth beyond the first few days of any outbreak being the most obvious) despite overwhelming and increasing evidence to the contrary. We blame our politicians for being useless, and they are, but jeez, trying to make decisions on the back of material like that...
  • Nigelb said:

    Russell Brand accuser calls his response to allegations ‘insulting’
    https://www.theguardian.com/culture/2023/sep/18/russell-brand-accuser-calls-his-response-to-allegations-insulting
    ...“It’s insulting,” Alice told BBC Radio 4’s Woman’s Hour on Monday. “And it’s laughable that he would even imply that this is some kind of mainstream media conspiracy. He’s not outside the mainstream – he did a Universal Pictures movie last year, he did Minions, a children’s movie.

    “He is very much part of the mainstream media, he just happens to have a YouTube channel where he talks about conspiracy theories to an audience that laps it up. And, it may sound cynical, but I do think that he was building himself an audience for years of people that would then have great distrust of any publication that came forward with allegations. He knew it was coming for a long time.

    “And then, as for him denying that anything non-consensual happened. That’s not a surprise to me. These men always deny any of the allegations brought to them – I knew he would. What he didn’t deny was that he had a relationship with a 16-year-old.”..



    Not quite sounding like an innocent victim there.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,249
    tlg86 said:

    A

    tlg86 said:

    Nigelb said:

    tlg86 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Russell Brand accuser calls his response to allegations ‘insulting’
    https://www.theguardian.com/culture/2023/sep/18/russell-brand-accuser-calls-his-response-to-allegations-insulting
    ...“It’s insulting,” Alice told BBC Radio 4’s Woman’s Hour on Monday. “And it’s laughable that he would even imply that this is some kind of mainstream media conspiracy. He’s not outside the mainstream – he did a Universal Pictures movie last year, he did Minions, a children’s movie.

    “He is very much part of the mainstream media, he just happens to have a YouTube channel where he talks about conspiracy theories to an audience that laps it up. And, it may sound cynical, but I do think that he was building himself an audience for years of people that would then have great distrust of any publication that came forward with allegations. He knew it was coming for a long time.

    “And then, as for him denying that anything non-consensual happened. That’s not a surprise to me. These men always deny any of the allegations brought to them – I knew he would. What he didn’t deny was that he had a relationship with a 16-year-old.”..

    It seems foolish for this woman to comment on Brand’s work. If it’s that obvious to her that he would build up a fan base that would defend him, why didn’t she come forward before he’d done that?

    I think Brand is a moron, but that shouldn’t come into this. Very simply, tell the police what happened and let them investigate. Leave everything else at the door.
    Something of a double standard going on here.

    If Brand continues to publicly rubbish those who've made allegations against him, should we expect them to remain silent ?
    I'm just thinking what his defence team will say in court. They will ask them about these comments and suggest that it is politically motivated.

    From Brand's point of view, I'd recommend he denies and then keeps his gob shut.

    And the same goes for everyone else. The bloke on Sky News saying something like "innocent until proven guilty only applies to the state, the court of public opinion doesn't have to follow those rules" is very foolish.
    Brand has produced plenty of material where he judges people as “guilty” for barely any reason at all.

    The idea that “innocent until proven guilty means shut up until after someone brings a court case and there’s a verdict” is just a stupid attempt at shutting down debate. Usually used by guilty people.
    Benjamin Mendy and Alex Salmond have entered the conversation.

    I don't think saying "Brand behaves badly, therefore, people should be allowed to behave in the same way towards him" is a very good argument to be honest.
    The idea that all d
    AlistairM said:

    The difficult part is that a consensual sexual relationship between a 30yo and 16yo is not a crime as long as there is no position of authority involved. However, if a 16yo boy has sex with a 15yo girl though that is a crime but really should it be?

    I think we need to change the law around the age of consent to take comparative ages into consideration. For example, maybe something based on the age of the youngest participant in a sexual activity:
    - If 14yo, other participant(s) maximum age is 16yo
    - If 15yo, other participant(s) maximum age is 18yo
    - If 16yo, other participant(s) maximum age is 20yo
    - If 17yo, other participant(s) maximum age is 25yo
    - At 18yo then no restriction on maximum age

    This would make a 30yo having a relationship with a 16yo a crime but allow those 15yo/16yo relationships. A far more sensible solution in my view.

    That’s called a Romeo and Juliette law.

    A fair number of countries have them.
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 5,398
    DavidL said:

    Watched the 2nd part of State of Chaos.

    It doesn't reflect well on Boris, but it also doesn't reflect well on the Civil Service either. Many of those interviewed came across as quite arrogant, particularly Lord MacDonald, with a "this is how we've always done things attitude"

    I'd be interested to know if they think the system is working better now. Clearly, Rishi is probably more to the Civil Service's liking but the Government is failing to deliver on his pledges.

    I'm of the view that actually the system did actually need a really good shake up but the tragedy is that Boris and Truss weren't able to manage it due to personal failings (lack of seriousness and organisation from Boris, lack of communication skills from Truss).

    And so now we will go back to insiders who will fail, but fail in an acceptable manner.

    Much of Cummings critique of the civil service was and remains valid. The lack of understanding of statistics, maths and analytical skills, the pompous and pointless emphasis on precedent, hallowed procedures and the lack of technical skills for anything complicated. Unfortunately, and as per usual, his solutions did not work through to meaningful improvements. It was an opportunity to improve governance in this country but neither Cummings nor Boris had the stamina for it.
    Cummings has some good criticisms of the civil service, and lots of people who work in the system would agree with them. The problem with Cummings is that he was overconfident in his own solutions, his approach to fixing them was too adversarial, it doesn't seem like he was listening much to others. So inevitably he ends up in the position of being a short term disrupter and he doesn't really achieve his potential or many of his stated goals.
  • The Welsh 20 mph petition is now really picking up steam. 109,135.

    I assume because a lot of Welsh drivers have only just made it home.

    Drivers in Wales have experienced the reality of default 20mph and do not like it

    It doesn't have to be this way as there is a case for 20mph round schools, hospitals and congested areas, but blanket no
    In England there is no way to enforce 20mph limits. There aren't any police to stand on every 20mph road with a laser gun, there isn't the money for speed cameras, there isn't even money to build restrictions to force 20mph such as humps or chicanes.

    In short it is window-dressing trying to encourage drivers to slow down. An effective advisory limit. So I can't see how Wales will be any different and I expect that most drivers will drive closer to 30mph than 20mph.
    I hope common sense will prevail and as @Penddu2 said earlier ( see 7.15am) the petition will require a Senedd discussion with the likely confirmation that powers will be vested in LAs

    Mind you on the day fire stations are threatened with closures in Wales, the fire service are being enrolled to assist in enforcement
    Penddu stated that the powers *already* sit with the LAs. Which is slightly different from your DRAKEFORD DID THIS spin.

    It sounds like the 20mph zones are too long - then again the 30mph zone they replaced may have been too slow. That - again - is for the council to resolve.

    This measure will save lives and change behaviours. And just like the bans on driving home from the pub with no seatbelt, people will get used to it and accept it quickly enough.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,957
    edited September 2023
    There appear to be a lot of people who dislike Brand and dislike the fact that plenty of people like him.

    What I do think is funny is the Guardian. Employs him no doubt after a largely white, Oxbridge-educated editorial board, none of whom I'd wager really knew who he was or what he said, thought it would make the paper "relevant", or at least give people a break from George Monbiot, and now it's come back to kick them in the arse.

    They are precisely a part of the problem. And it's very funny seeing them tie themselves in knots about it now.

  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,812
    AlistairM said:

    The difficult part is that a consensual sexual relationship between a 30yo and 16yo is not a crime as long as there is no position of authority involved. However, if a 16yo boy has sex with a 15yo girl though that is a crime but really should it be?

    I think we need to change the law around the age of consent to take comparative ages into consideration. For example, maybe something based on the age of the youngest participant in a sexual activity:
    - If 14yo, other participant(s) maximum age is 16yo
    - If 15yo, other participant(s) maximum age is 18yo
    - If 16yo, other participant(s) maximum age is 20yo
    - If 17yo, other participant(s) maximum age is 25yo
    - At 18yo then no restriction on maximum age

    This would make a 30yo having a relationship with a 16yo a crime but allow those 15yo/16yo relationships. A far more sensible solution in my view.

    In practice in Scotland something very much like this applies as children who engage in sex with other children are "diverted" away from prosecution.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,249

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/sep/19/sadiq-khan-says-hundreds-of-thousands-spent-on-anti-ulez-twitter-manipulation

    Whatever one's thoughts on ULEZ, the fact that someone spent £100ks spreading anti ULEZ messages and disinformation via fake social media accounts is worrying. Who was it, and what is their agenda?

    Is it a fact? The research he cites just says there are fake accounts but the monetary figure is pure speculation based on the cost of buying fake followers, but that wouldn’t apply if the fake accounts are all controlled by the same person.
    How could this one person get control of so many fake accounts?
    Creating them, quite often.

    There’s a whole world of fake online armies - followers, attackers etc - that can be hired for a price.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368

    Penddu2 said:

    Ignore the hyped up petition on Welsh 20 mph limit - by first removing all signatures from outside of Wales. It will still be a high number though and as such will trigger a debate in the Senedd. This debate will highlight the facts that:
    1. The policy was initially promoted by the Conservatives
    2. Poorly communicated by Labour
    3. Modified to be more realistc by Plaid
    4. Generally supported by the majority, the emergency services and NHS
    5. Objected to by the same people who objected to wearing seatbelts, banning indoor smoking, Covid vaccinations etc
    6. Power to apply 30mph limits instead of 20mph lies with local councils (of varying political persuasions) and not with the Welsh Government. If you dont like a 20mph on a particular stretch of road take it up with your Council.

    I predict that an outcome of the debate will be to establish a national review of 20 mph implementation with a subcommittee established in every counci to agree specific routes. It will not result in change of policy.

    Good morning

    A very good post on the issue which I generally agree with especially paragraph 6
    The 20mph pilot through the entirety of St Brides Major has changed! The Wick Road rural road has reverted to 30.

    The Vale have had an excellent and practical roll-out.

    Still, if the Conservatives can win a General Election on the back of 20mph and ULEZ, more power to their elbow!
  • 148grss148grss Posts: 4,155

    Nigelb said:

    Russell Brand accuser calls his response to allegations ‘insulting’
    https://www.theguardian.com/culture/2023/sep/18/russell-brand-accuser-calls-his-response-to-allegations-insulting
    ...“It’s insulting,” Alice told BBC Radio 4’s Woman’s Hour on Monday. “And it’s laughable that he would even imply that this is some kind of mainstream media conspiracy. He’s not outside the mainstream – he did a Universal Pictures movie last year, he did Minions, a children’s movie.

    “He is very much part of the mainstream media, he just happens to have a YouTube channel where he talks about conspiracy theories to an audience that laps it up. And, it may sound cynical, but I do think that he was building himself an audience for years of people that would then have great distrust of any publication that came forward with allegations. He knew it was coming for a long time.

    “And then, as for him denying that anything non-consensual happened. That’s not a surprise to me. These men always deny any of the allegations brought to them – I knew he would. What he didn’t deny was that he had a relationship with a 16-year-old.”..



    Not quite sounding like an innocent victim there.
    Yay, demands for a perfect victim are here! How reasonable...
  • Cyclefree said:


    A

    tlg86 said:

    Nigelb said:

    tlg86 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Russell Brand accuser calls his response to allegations ‘insulting’
    https://www.theguardian.com/culture/2023/sep/18/russell-brand-accuser-calls-his-response-to-allegations-insulting
    ...“It’s insulting,” Alice told BBC Radio 4’s Woman’s Hour on Monday. “And it’s laughable that he would even imply that this is some kind of mainstream media conspiracy. He’s not outside the mainstream – he did a Universal Pictures movie last year, he did Minions, a children’s movie.

    “He is very much part of the mainstream media, he just happens to have a YouTube channel where he talks about conspiracy theories to an audience that laps it up. And, it may sound cynical, but I do think that he was building himself an audience for years of people that would then have great distrust of any publication that came forward with allegations. He knew it was coming for a long time.

    “And then, as for him denying that anything non-consensual happened. That’s not a surprise to me. These men always deny any of the allegations brought to them – I knew he would. What he didn’t deny was that he had a relationship with a 16-year-old.”..

    It seems foolish for this woman to comment on Brand’s work. If it’s that obvious to her that he would build up a fan base that would defend him, why didn’t she come forward before he’d done that?

    I think Brand is a moron, but that shouldn’t come into this. Very simply, tell the police what happened and let them investigate. Leave everything else at the door.
    Something of a double standard going on here.

    If Brand continues to publicly rubbish those who've made allegations against him, should we expect them to remain silent ?
    I'm just thinking what his defence team will say in court. They will ask them about these comments and suggest that it is politically motivated.

    From Brand's point of view, I'd recommend he denies and then keeps his gob shut.

    And the same goes for everyone else. The bloke on Sky News saying something like "innocent until proven guilty only applies to the state, the court of public opinion doesn't have to follow those rules" is very foolish.
    Brand has produced plenty of material where he judges people as “guilty” for barely any reason at all.

    The idea that “innocent until proven guilty means shut up until after someone brings a court case and there’s a verdict” is just a stupid attempt at shutting down debate. Usually used by guilty people.
    The idea that this rule - which applies once someone is charged of a criminal offence - is a reason not to debate a piece of investigative journalism or discuss the way women are ignored when they speak about behaviour which is all too common in very many parts of life is nonsense. I very much wish that we had a more effective policing and criminal justice system in which women could have confidence. But we don't. Investigative journalism sometimes fills this gap - even though that too risks creating another set of problems.

    But it does feel as if a lot of Brand supporters are latching onto a mantra they barely understand to stop any discussion about male misbehaviour and how unpleasant it makes life for women. For some it appears to have given them an excuse to attack women in a way which explains why women are often reluctant to go to the authorities when men mistreat them.

    We are entitled to take a view about people based on a whole range of material not simply whether they've been in a court of law.

    As bankers have heard often enough from me, the question is not just whether something is legal but whether it is wise, not just whether they can do something but whether they should. Quite a few men should ask it of themselves in their behaviour to women. Decent conduct depends on something more than not merely committing a criminal offence. Assuming we value decency which I sometimes wonder about.
    Many, many times, I’ve heard the cry - “but it’s legal”.

    Legality isn’t a shield against moral criticism.

    Reminds me of this regular exchange.

    Me: Explaining a solution to a problem

    My board/clients: Is that legal?

    Me: It is rarely prosecuted.
  • TOPPING said:

    There appear to be a lot of people who dislike Brand and dislike the fact that plenty of people like him.

    What I do think it's funny is the Guardian. Employs him no doubt after a largely white, Oxbridge-educated editorial board, none of whom I'd wager really knew who he was or what he said, thinking it make the paper "relevant", or at least give people a break from George Monbiot, and now it's come back to kick them in the arse.

    They are precisely a part of the problem. And it's very funny seeing them tie themselves in knots about it now.

    I have almost no interest in Brand. The media circus is IMHO significantly driven by the fact that he was succeeding outside of their realm - a threat. So of course there will be a pile on.
  • The Welsh 20 mph petition is now really picking up steam. 109,135.

    I assume because a lot of Welsh drivers have only just made it home.

    Drivers in Wales have experienced the reality of default 20mph and do not like it

    It doesn't have to be this way as there is a case for 20mph round schools, hospitals and congested areas, but blanket no
    In England there is no way to enforce 20mph limits. There aren't any police to stand on every 20mph road with a laser gun, there isn't the money for speed cameras, there isn't even money to build restrictions to force 20mph such as humps or chicanes.

    In short it is window-dressing trying to encourage drivers to slow down. An effective advisory limit. So I can't see how Wales will be any different and I expect that most drivers will drive closer to 30mph than 20mph.
    I hope common sense will prevail and as @Penddu2 said earlier ( see 7.15am) the petition will require a Senedd discussion with the likely confirmation that powers will be vested in LAs

    Mind you on the day fire stations are threatened with closures in Wales, the fire service are being enrolled to assist in enforcement
    They already are, aren't they?

    This is dated November 2022;

    Not all existing 30mph roads will meet this test, and highway authorities should prepare Orders to retain the current speed limit for these roads. These are termed ‘exceptions’ to the default speed limit for restricted roads.

    https://www.gov.wales/setting-exceptions-20mph-default-speed-limit-restricted-roads-html
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,175
    Nigelb said:

    tlg86 said:

    A

    tlg86 said:

    Nigelb said:

    tlg86 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Russell Brand accuser calls his response to allegations ‘insulting’
    https://www.theguardian.com/culture/2023/sep/18/russell-brand-accuser-calls-his-response-to-allegations-insulting
    ...“It’s insulting,” Alice told BBC Radio 4’s Woman’s Hour on Monday. “And it’s laughable that he would even imply that this is some kind of mainstream media conspiracy. He’s not outside the mainstream – he did a Universal Pictures movie last year, he did Minions, a children’s movie.

    “He is very much part of the mainstream media, he just happens to have a YouTube channel where he talks about conspiracy theories to an audience that laps it up. And, it may sound cynical, but I do think that he was building himself an audience for years of people that would then have great distrust of any publication that came forward with allegations. He knew it was coming for a long time.

    “And then, as for him denying that anything non-consensual happened. That’s not a surprise to me. These men always deny any of the allegations brought to them – I knew he would. What he didn’t deny was that he had a relationship with a 16-year-old.”..

    It seems foolish for this woman to comment on Brand’s work. If it’s that obvious to her that he would build up a fan base that would defend him, why didn’t she come forward before he’d done that?

    I think Brand is a moron, but that shouldn’t come into this. Very simply, tell the police what happened and let them investigate. Leave everything else at the door.
    Something of a double standard going on here.

    If Brand continues to publicly rubbish those who've made allegations against him, should we expect them to remain silent ?
    I'm just thinking what his defence team will say in court. They will ask them about these comments and suggest that it is politically motivated.

    From Brand's point of view, I'd recommend he denies and then keeps his gob shut.

    And the same goes for everyone else. The bloke on Sky News saying something like "innocent until proven guilty only applies to the state, the court of public opinion doesn't have to follow those rules" is very foolish.
    Brand has produced plenty of material where he judges people as “guilty” for barely any reason at all.

    The idea that “innocent until proven guilty means shut up until after someone brings a court case and there’s a verdict” is just a stupid attempt at shutting down debate. Usually used by guilty people.
    Benjamin Mendy and Alex Salmond have entered the conversation.

    I don't think saying "Brand behaves badly, therefore, people should be allowed to behave in the same way towards him" is a very good argument to be honest.
    Are you suggesting they be gagged ?
    Not at all. I just don’t think it’s wise to give defence counsel ammunition.
  • The Welsh 20 mph petition is now really picking up steam. 109,135.

    I assume because a lot of Welsh drivers have only just made it home.

    Drivers in Wales have experienced the reality of default 20mph and do not like it

    It doesn't have to be this way as there is a case for 20mph round schools, hospitals and congested areas, but blanket no
    In England there is no way to enforce 20mph limits. There aren't any police to stand on every 20mph road with a laser gun, there isn't the money for speed cameras, there isn't even money to build restrictions to force 20mph such as humps or chicanes.

    In short it is window-dressing trying to encourage drivers to slow down. An effective advisory limit. So I can't see how Wales will be any different and I expect that most drivers will drive closer to 30mph than 20mph.
    I hope common sense will prevail and as @Penddu2 said earlier ( see 7.15am) the petition will require a Senedd discussion with the likely confirmation that powers will be vested in LAs

    Mind you on the day fire stations are threatened with closures in Wales, the fire service are being enrolled to assist in enforcement
    Penddu stated that the powers *already* sit with the LAs. Which is slightly different from your DRAKEFORD DID THIS spin.

    It sounds like the 20mph zones are too long - then again the 30mph zone they replaced may have been too slow. That - again - is for the council to resolve.

    This measure will save lives and change behaviours. And just like the bans on driving home from the pub with no seatbelt, people will get used to it and accept it quickly enough.
    You have not been following my comments then as it was Plaid who reigned in Drakeford as I said at the time and as @Penddu2 commented on in paragraphs 2 and 3 of his piece

  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    DavidL said:

    We saw throughout the Covid pandemic the very poor quality of advice given; the failure to recognise bias and inherent caution, the failure to quantify consequences, the determination to apply simplistic mathematical models (exponential growth beyond the first few days of any outbreak being the most obvious) despite overwhelming and increasing evidence to the contrary. We blame our politicians for being useless, and they are, but jeez, trying to make decisions on the back of material like that...

    Again, I am not sure you can blame the civil service for BoZo 'shake hands with everyone on the hospital' or Richi 'eat out to spread it about'
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,175
    Cyclefree said:

    tlg86 said:

    A

    tlg86 said:

    Nigelb said:

    tlg86 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Russell Brand accuser calls his response to allegations ‘insulting’
    https://www.theguardian.com/culture/2023/sep/18/russell-brand-accuser-calls-his-response-to-allegations-insulting
    ...“It’s insulting,” Alice told BBC Radio 4’s Woman’s Hour on Monday. “And it’s laughable that he would even imply that this is some kind of mainstream media conspiracy. He’s not outside the mainstream – he did a Universal Pictures movie last year, he did Minions, a children’s movie.

    “He is very much part of the mainstream media, he just happens to have a YouTube channel where he talks about conspiracy theories to an audience that laps it up. And, it may sound cynical, but I do think that he was building himself an audience for years of people that would then have great distrust of any publication that came forward with allegations. He knew it was coming for a long time.

    “And then, as for him denying that anything non-consensual happened. That’s not a surprise to me. These men always deny any of the allegations brought to them – I knew he would. What he didn’t deny was that he had a relationship with a 16-year-old.”..

    It seems foolish for this woman to comment on Brand’s work. If it’s that obvious to her that he would build up a fan base that would defend him, why didn’t she come forward before he’d done that?

    I think Brand is a moron, but that shouldn’t come into this. Very simply, tell the police what happened and let them investigate. Leave everything else at the door.
    Something of a double standard going on here.

    If Brand continues to publicly rubbish those who've made allegations against him, should we expect them to remain silent ?
    I'm just thinking what his defence team will say in court. They will ask them about these comments and suggest that it is politically motivated.

    From Brand's point of view, I'd recommend he denies and then keeps his gob shut.

    And the same goes for everyone else. The bloke on Sky News saying something like "innocent until proven guilty only applies to the state, the court of public opinion doesn't have to follow those rules" is very foolish.
    Brand has produced plenty of material where he judges people as “guilty” for barely any reason at all.

    The idea that “innocent until proven guilty means shut up until after someone brings a court case and there’s a verdict” is just a stupid attempt at shutting down debate. Usually used by guilty people.
    Benjamin Mendy and Alex Salmond have entered the conversation.

    I don't think saying "Brand behaves badly, therefore, people should be allowed to behave in the same way towards him" is a very good argument to be honest.
    Commenting in a radio interview is not remotely the same as the sort of behaviour Brand has been accused of.
    Read what I was replying to:

    “Brand has produced plenty of material where he judges people as “guilty” for barely any reason at all.”

  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,957

    Cyclefree said:


    A

    tlg86 said:

    Nigelb said:

    tlg86 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Russell Brand accuser calls his response to allegations ‘insulting’
    https://www.theguardian.com/culture/2023/sep/18/russell-brand-accuser-calls-his-response-to-allegations-insulting
    ...“It’s insulting,” Alice told BBC Radio 4’s Woman’s Hour on Monday. “And it’s laughable that he would even imply that this is some kind of mainstream media conspiracy. He’s not outside the mainstream – he did a Universal Pictures movie last year, he did Minions, a children’s movie.

    “He is very much part of the mainstream media, he just happens to have a YouTube channel where he talks about conspiracy theories to an audience that laps it up. And, it may sound cynical, but I do think that he was building himself an audience for years of people that would then have great distrust of any publication that came forward with allegations. He knew it was coming for a long time.

    “And then, as for him denying that anything non-consensual happened. That’s not a surprise to me. These men always deny any of the allegations brought to them – I knew he would. What he didn’t deny was that he had a relationship with a 16-year-old.”..

    It seems foolish for this woman to comment on Brand’s work. If it’s that obvious to her that he would build up a fan base that would defend him, why didn’t she come forward before he’d done that?

    I think Brand is a moron, but that shouldn’t come into this. Very simply, tell the police what happened and let them investigate. Leave everything else at the door.
    Something of a double standard going on here.

    If Brand continues to publicly rubbish those who've made allegations against him, should we expect them to remain silent ?
    I'm just thinking what his defence team will say in court. They will ask them about these comments and suggest that it is politically motivated.

    From Brand's point of view, I'd recommend he denies and then keeps his gob shut.

    And the same goes for everyone else. The bloke on Sky News saying something like "innocent until proven guilty only applies to the state, the court of public opinion doesn't have to follow those rules" is very foolish.
    Brand has produced plenty of material where he judges people as “guilty” for barely any reason at all.

    The idea that “innocent until proven guilty means shut up until after someone brings a court case and there’s a verdict” is just a stupid attempt at shutting down debate. Usually used by guilty people.
    The idea that this rule - which applies once someone is charged of a criminal offence - is a reason not to debate a piece of investigative journalism or discuss the way women are ignored when they speak about behaviour which is all too common in very many parts of life is nonsense. I very much wish that we had a more effective policing and criminal justice system in which women could have confidence. But we don't. Investigative journalism sometimes fills this gap - even though that too risks creating another set of problems.

    But it does feel as if a lot of Brand supporters are latching onto a mantra they barely understand to stop any discussion about male misbehaviour and how unpleasant it makes life for women. For some it appears to have given them an excuse to attack women in a way which explains why women are often reluctant to go to the authorities when men mistreat them.

    We are entitled to take a view about people based on a whole range of material not simply whether they've been in a court of law.

    As bankers have heard often enough from me, the question is not just whether something is legal but whether it is wise, not just whether they can do something but whether they should. Quite a few men should ask it of themselves in their behaviour to women. Decent conduct depends on something more than not merely committing a criminal offence. Assuming we value decency which I sometimes wonder about.
    Many, many times, I’ve heard the cry - “but it’s legal”.

    Legality isn’t a shield against moral criticism.

    Reminds me of this regular exchange.

    Me: Explaining a solution to a problem

    My board/clients: Is that legal?

    Me: It is rarely prosecuted.
    Technically legal is the term that is being employed for his relationship with the 16-yr old.

    I think technically legal covers an awful lot of activities, doesn't it (YAAL). For example here I am posting on PB. Which as far as I'm aware is technically legal. Although IANAL so I could be wrong.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,051
    TOPPING said:

    There appear to be a lot of people who dislike Brand and dislike the fact that plenty of people like him.

    What I do think it's funny is the Guardian. Employs him no doubt after a largely white, Oxbridge-educated editorial board, none of whom I'd wager really knew who he was or what he said, thinking it make the paper "relevant", or at least give people a break from George Monbiot, and now it's come back to kick them in the arse.

    They are precisely a part of the problem. And it's very funny seeing them tie themselves in knots about it now.

    I think it’s more concerning that, say, Elon Musk is backing Brand now, after these (credible) allegations came out, than that the Guardian did many years ago, before these allegations came out.
  • Penddu2 said:

    Ignore the hyped up petition on Welsh 20 mph limit - by first removing all signatures from outside of Wales. It will still be a high number though and as such will trigger a debate in the Senedd. This debate will highlight the facts that:
    1. The policy was initially promoted by the Conservatives
    2. Poorly communicated by Labour
    3. Modified to be more realistc by Plaid
    4. Generally supported by the majority, the emergency services and NHS
    5. Objected to by the same people who objected to wearing seatbelts, banning indoor smoking, Covid vaccinations etc
    6. Power to apply 30mph limits instead of 20mph lies with local councils (of varying political persuasions) and not with the Welsh Government. If you dont like a 20mph on a particular stretch of road take it up with your Council.

    I predict that an outcome of the debate will be to establish a national review of 20 mph implementation with a subcommittee established in every counci to agree specific routes. It will not result in change of policy.

    Good morning

    A very good post on the issue which I generally agree with especially paragraph 6
    The 20mph pilot through the entirety of St Brides Major has changed! The Wick Road rural road has reverted to 30.

    The Vale have had an excellent and practical roll-out.

    Still, if the Conservatives can win a General Election on the back of 20mph and ULEZ, more power to their elbow!
    I hope that similar sense will prevail here in North Wales

    And no it will not result in the conservatives winning the next GE
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,633
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Watched the 2nd part of State of Chaos.

    It doesn't reflect well on Boris, but it also doesn't reflect well on the Civil Service either. Many of those interviewed came across as quite arrogant, particularly Lord MacDonald, with a "this is how we've always done things attitude"

    I'd be interested to know if they think the system is working better now. Clearly, Rishi is probably more to the Civil Service's liking but the Government is failing to deliver on his pledges.

    I'm of the view that actually the system did actually need a really good shake up but the tragedy is that Boris and Truss weren't able to manage it due to personal failings (lack of seriousness and organisation from Boris, lack of communication skills from Truss).

    And so now we will go back to insiders who will fail, but fail in an acceptable manner.

    Much of Cummings critique of the civil service was and remains valid. The lack of understanding of statistics, maths and analytical skills, the pompous and pointless emphasis on precedent, hallowed procedures and the lack of technical skills for anything complicated. Unfortunately, and as per usual, his solutions did not work through to meaningful improvements. It was an opportunity to improve governance in this country but neither Cummings nor Boris had the stamina for it.
    The problem was that Cummings and Johnson didn't actually want to reform the civil service, they just didn't want them in the way. The fact that Cummings successfully articulated the civil service's failings in furtherance of these efforts shouldn't be read as implying he had any ideas for improvement, let alone the nous to pursue them. They were just two posh boys used to getting everything they wanted who didn't like anyone saying no to them.
    Its certainly true that they did not want them in the way. It is also the case, I think, that they were frustrated by both the lack of clear advice and the quality of the advice that they were given. I think Cummings idea of a group of iconoclasts with strong mathematical skills was one that might have been usefully pursued. A good friend of mine, who is very much not a Tory, was seriously interested in that at the time but, wisely, stayed with his professorship.

    We saw throughout the Covid pandemic the very poor quality of advice given; the failure to recognise bias and inherent caution, the failure to quantify consequences, the determination to apply simplistic mathematical models (exponential growth beyond the first few days of any outbreak being the most obvious) despite overwhelming and increasing evidence to the contrary. We blame our politicians for being useless, and they are, but jeez, trying to make decisions on the back of material like that...
    Except that isn't true. The government took advice from SAGE, not just the Civil Service, and SAGE was deliberately formed from the best scientific and mathematical advice. Some of that advice is viewed differently via the retrospectoscope, and politicians too credulous and cautious but the advice was valid on the knowledge of the time.

    You do realise that "Yes, Minister" is a 40 year old comedy, not a contemporary documentary? We might as well draw conclusions on the legal system from Rumpole or on Health from Sir Launcelot Spratt.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,035

    TOPPING said:

    There appear to be a lot of people who dislike Brand and dislike the fact that plenty of people like him.

    What I do think it's funny is the Guardian. Employs him no doubt after a largely white, Oxbridge-educated editorial board, none of whom I'd wager really knew who he was or what he said, thinking it make the paper "relevant", or at least give people a break from George Monbiot, and now it's come back to kick them in the arse.

    They are precisely a part of the problem. And it's very funny seeing them tie themselves in knots about it now.

    I have almost no interest in Brand. The media circus is IMHO significantly driven by the fact that he was succeeding outside of their realm - a threat. So of course there will be a pile on.
    I agree with your first sentence - it's vastly overcovered. I think the second and third may be overanalysing however. The papers are never able to resist a juicy celebrity sex scandal, no matter who the ghastly protagonist works for.
  • .

    The Welsh 20 mph petition is now really picking up steam. 109,135.

    I assume because a lot of Welsh drivers have only just made it home.

    Drivers in Wales have experienced the reality of default 20mph and do not like it

    It doesn't have to be this way as there is a case for 20mph round schools, hospitals and congested areas, but blanket no
    In England there is no way to enforce 20mph limits. There aren't any police to stand on every 20mph road with a laser gun, there isn't the money for speed cameras, there isn't even money to build restrictions to force 20mph such as humps or chicanes.

    In short it is window-dressing trying to encourage drivers to slow down. An effective advisory limit. So I can't see how Wales will be any different and I expect that most drivers will drive closer to 30mph than 20mph.
    I hope common sense will prevail and as @Penddu2 said earlier ( see 7.15am) the petition will require a Senedd discussion with the likely confirmation that powers will be vested in LAs

    Mind you on the day fire stations are threatened with closures in Wales, the fire service are being enrolled to assist in enforcement
    Penddu stated that the powers *already* sit with the LAs. Which is slightly different from your DRAKEFORD DID THIS spin.

    It sounds like the 20mph zones are too long - then again the 30mph zone they replaced may have been too slow. That - again - is for the council to resolve.

    This measure will save lives and change behaviours. And just like the bans on driving home from the pub with no seatbelt, people will get used to it and accept it quickly enough.
    You have not been following my comments then as it was Plaid who reigned in Drakeford as I said at the time and as @Penddu2 commented on in paragraphs 2 and 3 of his piece

    So you agree that the poor implementation of 20mph limits sits with the council? Good! So not Drakeford's fault after all.

    Again, people complained that they couldn't drive home drunk. They soon got used to it, and not because they were at serious risk of getting nicked. Society has made it unacceptable. It has become self-enforcing. And driving slower in urban areas will be the same.

    You won't be at much risk of a speed trap catching you - a total lack of resources. But the pressure to conform will be there whether you Tories like it or not.
  • 148grss148grss Posts: 4,155
    I don't understand why this story is as prominent as it is - Russell Brand isn't at his peak of fame any more and this wasn't really secret considering the number of women who had previously made comments about his abusive behaviour out in the open.

    But it seems clear to me that there is still a large strain of anti-feminist backlash, that hated #MeToo and the ability for women to hold abusive men to account, and those people are backing Brand. That people seem to be focussing on whether or not a 30yo dating a 16 yo is legal or not instead of interrogating the allegations of physical abuse, psychological abuse and rape is disappointing. Defend age gaps all you want, but it seems to me indicative of a man looking for relationships with a large gap in relative power which, when coupled with these allegations, highlights his pattern of abuse.
  • A question for scientists/medics here.

    Interesting article about a reanalysis of Tavistock data that had originally shown no impact on mental health for children on puberty blockers. New analysis says a 34% had deteriorated and 25% had improved.

    What strikes me as odd is that "the original study used scores from both parent and child questionnaires, which assessed children's behavioural and emotional problems" ... if it's based on self reported data then all else equal couldn't an improvement be possibly expected even from simply a placebo effect?

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-66842352
  • GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,860
    I watched Dispatches last night. A lot of reflections on it, but as an aside - I wasn’t familiar with his work at the time really; just knew of him as a celeb.

    But Christ alive, his comedy was really nasty and unfunny. Obviously the doco pulls excerpts which are apt for the content (horribly so) but there’s not really much wit or invention there. Edgelord nonsense in a silly faux-cockerney voice. Also his Radio 2 stuff was unbelievably garbage - hard to credit now that he was given a slot. There was a real nastiness about the cultural landscape in the late 2000s (see also Vice magazine).

    Also he aged *badly*; a very handsome youth but quite the minger in his 30s onwards; now looking pretty pathetic and embarrassing.

    Whether or not any convictions come of this (and I think they will) it’s a slam dunk on his character. Horrible man.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,957
    edited September 2023

    TOPPING said:

    There appear to be a lot of people who dislike Brand and dislike the fact that plenty of people like him.

    What I do think it's funny is the Guardian. Employs him no doubt after a largely white, Oxbridge-educated editorial board, none of whom I'd wager really knew who he was or what he said, thinking it make the paper "relevant", or at least give people a break from George Monbiot, and now it's come back to kick them in the arse.

    They are precisely a part of the problem. And it's very funny seeing them tie themselves in knots about it now.

    I think it’s more concerning that, say, Elon Musk is backing Brand now, after these (credible) allegations came out, than that the Guardian did many years ago, before these allegations came out.
    I think those are weasel words. The Graun employed him because he was edgy. Allegations followed but no one didn't know the type of person Brand was and that is precisely why they employed him.

    Edit: and who cares who Musk backs. He doesn't get to determine right or wrong any more than the chairman of Three mobile network does.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,633
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Watched the 2nd part of State of Chaos.

    It doesn't reflect well on Boris, but it also doesn't reflect well on the Civil Service either. Many of those interviewed came across as quite arrogant, particularly Lord MacDonald, with a "this is how we've always done things attitude"

    I'd be interested to know if they think the system is working better now. Clearly, Rishi is probably more to the Civil Service's liking but the Government is failing to deliver on his pledges.

    I'm of the view that actually the system did actually need a really good shake up but the tragedy is that Boris and Truss weren't able to manage it due to personal failings (lack of seriousness and organisation from Boris, lack of communication skills from Truss).

    And so now we will go back to insiders who will fail, but fail in an acceptable manner.

    Much of Cummings critique of the civil service was and remains valid. The lack of understanding of statistics, maths and analytical skills, the pompous and pointless emphasis on precedent, hallowed procedures and the lack of technical skills for anything complicated. Unfortunately, and as per usual, his solutions did not work through to meaningful improvements. It was an opportunity to improve governance in this country but neither Cummings nor Boris had the stamina for it.
    The problem was that Cummings and Johnson didn't actually want to reform the civil service, they just didn't want them in the way. The fact that Cummings successfully articulated the civil service's failings in furtherance of these efforts shouldn't be read as implying he had any ideas for improvement, let alone the nous to pursue them. They were just two posh boys used to getting everything they wanted who didn't like anyone saying no to them.
    Its certainly true that they did not want them in the way. It is also the case, I think, that they were frustrated by both the lack of clear advice and the quality of the advice that they were given. I think Cummings idea of a group of iconoclasts with strong mathematical skills was one that might have been usefully pursued. A good friend of mine, who is very much not a Tory, was seriously interested in that at the time but, wisely, stayed with his professorship.

    We saw throughout the Covid pandemic the very poor quality of advice given; the failure to recognise bias and inherent caution, the failure to quantify consequences, the determination to apply simplistic mathematical models (exponential growth beyond the first few days of any outbreak being the most obvious) despite overwhelming and increasing evidence to the contrary. We blame our politicians for being useless, and they are, but jeez, trying to make decisions on the back of material like that...
    Except that isn't true. T
    darkage said:

    DavidL said:

    Watched the 2nd part of State of Chaos.

    It doesn't reflect well on Boris, but it also doesn't reflect well on the Civil Service either. Many of those interviewed came across as quite arrogant, particularly Lord MacDonald, with a "this is how we've always done things attitude"

    I'd be interested to know if they think the system is working better now. Clearly, Rishi is probably more to the Civil Service's liking but the Government is failing to deliver on his pledges.

    I'm of the view that actually the system did actually need a really good shake up but the tragedy is that Boris and Truss weren't able to manage it due to personal failings (lack of seriousness and organisation from Boris, lack of communication skills from Truss).

    And so now we will go back to insiders who will fail, but fail in an acceptable manner.

    Much of Cummings critique of the civil service was and remains valid. The lack of understanding of statistics, maths and analytical skills, the pompous and pointless emphasis on precedent, hallowed procedures and the lack of technical skills for anything complicated. Unfortunately, and as per usual, his solutions did not work through to meaningful improvements. It was an opportunity to improve governance in this country but neither Cummings nor Boris had the stamina for it.
    Cummings has some good criticisms of the civil service, and lots of people who work in the system would agree with them. The problem with Cummings is that he was overconfident in his own solutions, his approach to fixing them was too adversarial, it doesn't seem like he was listening much to others. So inevitably he ends up in the position of being a short term disrupter and he doesn't really achieve his potential or many of his stated goals.
    Cummings vision was to build a Bond Villian style lair populated by his tech bro minions watching a big board. Look how well that went.

    It is no surprise that the most dysfunctional departments of government now are the ones where the Civil Service cuts were deepest under Austerity.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,812

    Nigelb said:

    Russell Brand accuser calls his response to allegations ‘insulting’
    https://www.theguardian.com/culture/2023/sep/18/russell-brand-accuser-calls-his-response-to-allegations-insulting
    ...“It’s insulting,” Alice told BBC Radio 4’s Woman’s Hour on Monday. “And it’s laughable that he would even imply that this is some kind of mainstream media conspiracy. He’s not outside the mainstream – he did a Universal Pictures movie last year, he did Minions, a children’s movie.

    “He is very much part of the mainstream media, he just happens to have a YouTube channel where he talks about conspiracy theories to an audience that laps it up. And, it may sound cynical, but I do think that he was building himself an audience for years of people that would then have great distrust of any publication that came forward with allegations. He knew it was coming for a long time.

    “And then, as for him denying that anything non-consensual happened. That’s not a surprise to me. These men always deny any of the allegations brought to them – I knew he would. What he didn’t deny was that he had a relationship with a 16-year-old.”..



    Not quite sounding like an innocent victim there.
    The idea that victims have to behave in a specific way is one of the reasons why society does poorly at stopping sexual harassment.
    Exactly. "Victims" don't have to be "innocent". They may have made a lot of stupid mistakes or put themselves at risk. They may be vengeful after the event and angry. None of this is relevant. What is relevant is whether there was consent at the time freely given.
  • .

    The Welsh 20 mph petition is now really picking up steam. 109,135.

    I assume because a lot of Welsh drivers have only just made it home.

    Drivers in Wales have experienced the reality of default 20mph and do not like it

    It doesn't have to be this way as there is a case for 20mph round schools, hospitals and congested areas, but blanket no
    In England there is no way to enforce 20mph limits. There aren't any police to stand on every 20mph road with a laser gun, there isn't the money for speed cameras, there isn't even money to build restrictions to force 20mph such as humps or chicanes.

    In short it is window-dressing trying to encourage drivers to slow down. An effective advisory limit. So I can't see how Wales will be any different and I expect that most drivers will drive closer to 30mph than 20mph.
    I hope common sense will prevail and as @Penddu2 said earlier ( see 7.15am) the petition will require a Senedd discussion with the likely confirmation that powers will be vested in LAs

    Mind you on the day fire stations are threatened with closures in Wales, the fire service are being enrolled to assist in enforcement
    Penddu stated that the powers *already* sit with the LAs. Which is slightly different from your DRAKEFORD DID THIS spin.

    It sounds like the 20mph zones are too long - then again the 30mph zone they replaced may have been too slow. That - again - is for the council to resolve.

    This measure will save lives and change behaviours. And just like the bans on driving home from the pub with no seatbelt, people will get used to it and accept it quickly enough.
    You have not been following my comments then as it was Plaid who reigned in Drakeford as I said at the time and as @Penddu2 commented on in paragraphs 2 and 3 of his piece

    So you agree that the poor implementation of 20mph limits sits with the council? Good! So not Drakeford's fault after all.

    Again, people complained that they couldn't drive home drunk. They soon got used to it, and not because they were at serious risk of getting nicked. Society has made it unacceptable. It has become self-enforcing. And driving slower in urban areas will be the same.

    You won't be at much risk of a speed trap catching you - a total lack of resources. But the pressure to conform will be there whether you Tories like it or not.
    Again it is only because Plaid intervened to reign in Drakeford and I agree with the 20mph restrictions by schools and congested areas but that on the evidence yesterday some roads need to be reviewed
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,647

    The Welsh 20 mph petition is now really picking up steam. 109,135.

    I assume because a lot of Welsh drivers have only just made it home.

    Drivers in Wales have experienced the reality of default 20mph and do not like it

    It doesn't have to be this way as there is a case for 20mph round schools, hospitals and congested areas, but blanket no
    In England there is no way to enforce 20mph limits. There aren't any police to stand on every 20mph road with a laser gun, there isn't the money for speed cameras, there isn't even money to build restrictions to force 20mph such as humps or chicanes.

    In short it is window-dressing trying to encourage drivers to slow down. An effective advisory limit. So I can't see how Wales will be any different and I expect that most drivers will drive closer to 30mph than 20mph.
    The evidence from Edinburgh suggests the opposite. There has been zero enforcement there either, yet average speeds, collisions and injuries have all fallen.

    All it takes is one person on 9 points, a tourist, or a chaotic good like me, to hold everyone to 20mph. People stop bothering to overtake cyclists, because they will likely be re-overtaken at the next set of lights.

    And the universality of the limit helps too. 30mph starts to feel far too fast as drivers adjust to the "new normal". Cheaper too - need fewer signs.

    And in the cases where people are injured by a driver going 40, the sheriff/judge has much more justification for a lengthy ban etc
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,957
    148grss said:

    I don't understand why this story is as prominent as it is - Russell Brand isn't at his peak of fame any more and this wasn't really secret considering the number of women who had previously made comments about his abusive behaviour out in the open.

    But it seems clear to me that there is still a large strain of anti-feminist backlash, that hated #MeToo and the ability for women to hold abusive men to account, and those people are backing Brand. That people seem to be focussing on whether or not a 30yo dating a 16 yo is legal or not instead of interrogating the allegations of physical abuse, psychological abuse and rape is disappointing. Defend age gaps all you want, but it seems to me indicative of a man looking for relationships with a large gap in relative power which, when coupled with these allegations, highlights his pattern of abuse.

    The story is prominent because, as Rochdale points out, he is a media creation. They nurtured him, feted him, overlooked the content because it is obvious his absolute tosserness might easily include such behaviour as is being alleged now, and now there has been an uproar and that very same media (Graun, New Statesman, Ch4) are doing their best to absolve themselves of any guilt whatsoever, what me guv?

    Which has in turn brought in so-called "disrupters" such as Musk who are taking against the MSM.

    All very simple to understand.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,957
    Ghedebrav said:

    I watched Dispatches last night. A lot of reflections on it, but as an aside - I wasn’t familiar with his work at the time really; just knew of him as a celeb.

    But Christ alive, his comedy was really nasty and unfunny. Obviously the doco pulls excerpts which are apt for the content (horribly so) but there’s not really much wit or invention there. Edgelord nonsense in a silly faux-cockerney voice. Also his Radio 2 stuff was unbelievably garbage - hard to credit now that he was given a slot. There was a real nastiness about the cultural landscape in the late 2000s (see also Vice magazine).

    Also he aged *badly*; a very handsome youth but quite the minger in his 30s onwards; now looking pretty pathetic and embarrassing.

    Whether or not any convictions come of this (and I think they will) it’s a slam dunk on his character. Horrible man.

    I happen to think Mrs Brown's Boys is not that funny. Others think it is the last word in hysterically funny comedy.

    Funny old world, eh.
  • twistedfirestopper3twistedfirestopper3 Posts: 2,421
    edited September 2023

    The Welsh 20 mph petition is now really picking up steam. 109,135.

    I assume because a lot of Welsh drivers have only just made it home.

    Drivers in Wales have experienced the reality of default 20mph and do not like it

    It doesn't have to be this way as there is a case for 20mph round schools, hospitals and congested areas, but blanket no
    In England there is no way to enforce 20mph limits. There aren't any police to stand on every 20mph road with a laser gun, there isn't the money for speed cameras, there isn't even money to build restrictions to force 20mph such as humps or chicanes.

    In short it is window-dressing trying to encourage drivers to slow down. An effective advisory limit. So I can't see how Wales will be any different and I expect that most drivers will drive closer to 30mph than 20mph.
    I hope common sense will prevail and as @Penddu2 said earlier ( see 7.15am) the petition will require a Senedd discussion with the likely confirmation that powers will be vested in LAs

    Mind you on the day fire stations are threatened with closures in Wales, the fire service are being enrolled to assist in enforcement
    Calm down, old fella.
    The fire service can't get involved in "enforcement". They're not coppers and have no power to enforce anything. They'll get involved in awareness campaigns and offer advice and do demos of RTI techniques and equipment, but they've been doing that for years. I've lost count of the number of cars I've helped cut up in town centres whilst dishing out leaflets and keyrings and pens during years of Fatal Four programmes.
    No Chief Fire Officer worth the rank would jeopardise the relationship with the public by turning firefighters into jumped up little jobsworths and the FBU wouldn't let it happen anyway.
  • Nigelb said:

    Russell Brand accuser calls his response to allegations ‘insulting’
    https://www.theguardian.com/culture/2023/sep/18/russell-brand-accuser-calls-his-response-to-allegations-insulting
    ...“It’s insulting,” Alice told BBC Radio 4’s Woman’s Hour on Monday. “And it’s laughable that he would even imply that this is some kind of mainstream media conspiracy. He’s not outside the mainstream – he did a Universal Pictures movie last year, he did Minions, a children’s movie.

    “He is very much part of the mainstream media, he just happens to have a YouTube channel where he talks about conspiracy theories to an audience that laps it up. And, it may sound cynical, but I do think that he was building himself an audience for years of people that would then have great distrust of any publication that came forward with allegations. He knew it was coming for a long time.

    “And then, as for him denying that anything non-consensual happened. That’s not a surprise to me. These men always deny any of the allegations brought to them – I knew he would. What he didn’t deny was that he had a relationship with a 16-year-old.”..



    Not quite sounding like an innocent victim there.
    How do you reach that judgement based on an interview with an articulate 30-something woman?

    (The incident occurred many years ago)
  • The Welsh 20 mph petition is now really picking up steam. 109,135.

    I assume because a lot of Welsh drivers have only just made it home.

    Drivers in Wales have experienced the reality of default 20mph and do not like it

    It doesn't have to be this way as there is a case for 20mph round schools, hospitals and congested areas, but blanket no
    In England there is no way to enforce 20mph limits. There aren't any police to stand on every 20mph road with a laser gun, there isn't the money for speed cameras, there isn't even money to build restrictions to force 20mph such as humps or chicanes.

    In short it is window-dressing trying to encourage drivers to slow down. An effective advisory limit. So I can't see how Wales will be any different and I expect that most drivers will drive closer to 30mph than 20mph.
    I hope common sense will prevail and as @Penddu2 said earlier ( see 7.15am) the petition will require a Senedd discussion with the likely confirmation that powers will be vested in LAs

    Mind you on the day fire stations are threatened with closures in Wales, the fire service are being enrolled to assist in enforcement
    Calm down, old fella.
    The fire service can't get involved in "enforcement". They're not coppers and have no power to enforce anything. They'll get involved in awareness campaigns and offer advice and do demos of RTI techniques and equipment, but they've been doing that for years. I've lost count of the number of cars I've helped cut up in town centres whilst dishing out leaflets and keyrings and pens during years of Fatal Four programmes.
    No Chief Fire Officer worth the rank would jeopardise the relationship with the public by turning firefighters into jumped up little jobsworths and the FBU wouldn't let it happen anyway.
    I would respectively suggest you are wrong about fire service involvement in Wales as this Welsh Government article affirms

    https://www.gov.wales/working-together-save-lives-welsh-government-teams-police-ahead-20mph-roll-out
  • A question for scientists/medics here.

    Interesting article about a reanalysis of Tavistock data that had originally shown no impact on mental health for children on puberty blockers. New analysis says a 34% had deteriorated and 25% had improved.

    What strikes me as odd is that "the original study used scores from both parent and child questionnaires, which assessed children's behavioural and emotional problems" ... if it's based on self reported data then all else equal couldn't an improvement be possibly expected even from simply a placebo effect?

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-66842352

    A well designed trial attempts to control for that, but, yes, self-reported data is not great and shouldn’t be used as the sole basis for regulatory decisions
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,663
    edited September 2023
    TOPPING said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    I watched Dispatches last night. A lot of reflections on it, but as an aside - I wasn’t familiar with his work at the time really; just knew of him as a celeb.

    But Christ alive, his comedy was really nasty and unfunny. Obviously the doco pulls excerpts which are apt for the content (horribly so) but there’s not really much wit or invention there. Edgelord nonsense in a silly faux-cockerney voice. Also his Radio 2 stuff was unbelievably garbage - hard to credit now that he was given a slot. There was a real nastiness about the cultural landscape in the late 2000s (see also Vice magazine).

    Also he aged *badly*; a very handsome youth but quite the minger in his 30s onwards; now looking pretty pathetic and embarrassing.

    Whether or not any convictions come of this (and I think they will) it’s a slam dunk on his character. Horrible man.

    I happen to think Mrs Brown's Boys is not that funny. Others think it is the last word in hysterically funny comedy.

    Funny old world, eh.
    Mrs. Brown's Boys has a 'Carry On' type of appeal and its messages are socially quite liberal. It's big failing is it's basically one joke repeated over and over.

    Brand OTOH was just cruel, nasty and stupid throughout.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,812
    TOPPING said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    I watched Dispatches last night. A lot of reflections on it, but as an aside - I wasn’t familiar with his work at the time really; just knew of him as a celeb.

    But Christ alive, his comedy was really nasty and unfunny. Obviously the doco pulls excerpts which are apt for the content (horribly so) but there’s not really much wit or invention there. Edgelord nonsense in a silly faux-cockerney voice. Also his Radio 2 stuff was unbelievably garbage - hard to credit now that he was given a slot. There was a real nastiness about the cultural landscape in the late 2000s (see also Vice magazine).

    Also he aged *badly*; a very handsome youth but quite the minger in his 30s onwards; now looking pretty pathetic and embarrassing.

    Whether or not any convictions come of this (and I think they will) it’s a slam dunk on his character. Horrible man.

    I happen to think Mrs Brown's Boys is not that funny. Others think it is the last word in hysterically funny comedy.

    Funny old world, eh.
    You're right though.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,188

    The Welsh 20 mph petition is now really picking up steam. 109,135.

    I assume because a lot of Welsh drivers have only just made it home.

    Drivers in Wales have experienced the reality of default 20mph and do not like it

    It doesn't have to be this way as there is a case for 20mph round schools, hospitals and congested areas, but blanket no
    In England there is no way to enforce 20mph limits. There aren't any police to stand on every 20mph road with a laser gun, there isn't the money for speed cameras, there isn't even money to build restrictions to force 20mph such as humps or chicanes.

    In short it is window-dressing trying to encourage drivers to slow down. An effective advisory limit. So I can't see how Wales will be any different and I expect that most drivers will drive closer to 30mph than 20mph.
    I hope common sense will prevail and as @Penddu2 said earlier ( see 7.15am) the petition will require a Senedd discussion with the likely confirmation that powers will be vested in LAs

    Mind you on the day fire stations are threatened with closures in Wales, the fire service are being enrolled to assist in enforcement
    Calm down, old fella.
    The fire service can't get involved in "enforcement". They're not coppers and have no power to enforce anything. They'll get involved in awareness campaigns and offer advice and do demos of RTI techniques and equipment, but they've been doing that for years. I've lost count of the number of cars I've helped cut up in town centres whilst dishing out leaflets and keyrings and pens during years of Fatal Four programmes.
    No Chief Fire Officer worth the rank would jeopardise the relationship with the public by turning firefighters into jumped up little jobsworths and the FBU wouldn't let it happen anyway.
    I would respectively suggest you are wrong about fire service involvement in Wales as this Welsh Government article affirms

    https://www.gov.wales/working-together-save-lives-welsh-government-teams-police-ahead-20mph-roll-out
    That's about education, not enforcement.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,310
    edited September 2023
    DavidL said:

    AlistairM said:

    The difficult part is that a consensual sexual relationship between a 30yo and 16yo is not a crime as long as there is no position of authority involved. However, if a 16yo boy has sex with a 15yo girl though that is a crime but really should it be?

    I think we need to change the law around the age of consent to take comparative ages into consideration. For example, maybe something based on the age of the youngest participant in a sexual activity:
    - If 14yo, other participant(s) maximum age is 16yo
    - If 15yo, other participant(s) maximum age is 18yo
    - If 16yo, other participant(s) maximum age is 20yo
    - If 17yo, other participant(s) maximum age is 25yo
    - At 18yo then no restriction on maximum age

    This would make a 30yo having a relationship with a 16yo a crime but allow those 15yo/16yo relationships. A far more sensible solution in my view.

    In practice in Scotland something very much like this applies as children who engage in sex with other children are "diverted" away from prosecution.
    What - like the 23 year old diverted away from prison despite raping a 13 year old?
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,175
    TOPPING said:

    There appear to be a lot of people who dislike Brand and dislike the fact that plenty of people like him.

    What I do think is funny is the Guardian. Employs him no doubt after a largely white, Oxbridge-educated editorial board, none of whom I'd wager really knew who he was or what he said, thought it would make the paper "relevant", or at least give people a break from George Monbiot, and now it's come back to kick them in the arse.

    They are precisely a part of the problem. And it's very funny seeing them tie themselves in knots about it now.

    Interesting this is still up:

    https://www.theguardian.com/profile/russellbrand

    I guess if they take it down, they’d be accused of trying to hide that he once worked for them.
  • DavidL said:

    Foxy said:
    The fact that that embarrassment beat Rishi in a vote of the party membership is a stain on the party and indeed Rishi that he must be desperate to gloss over. This is the same party membership who preferred IDS to Ken Clarke which I thought at the time was possibly the ultimate in delusion but, given that they were in office at the time and picking our PM, this tops even that.

    Not fit for purpose.
    The purpose of a political party is to get people elected who represent its interests and views, not as obedient voting fodder handing a series of smarmy dickheads the keys to No. 10. The grassroots Tory Party has had a broadly settled eurosceptic and low tax preference for decades. Why exactly do you feel that they should be obliged to elect Kenneth Clarke or Rishi Sunak? Would Change UK, the Lib Dems or Labour accept a leaver as their leader?
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,663
    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Watched the 2nd part of State of Chaos.

    It doesn't reflect well on Boris, but it also doesn't reflect well on the Civil Service either. Many of those interviewed came across as quite arrogant, particularly Lord MacDonald, with a "this is how we've always done things attitude"

    I'd be interested to know if they think the system is working better now. Clearly, Rishi is probably more to the Civil Service's liking but the Government is failing to deliver on his pledges.

    I'm of the view that actually the system did actually need a really good shake up but the tragedy is that Boris and Truss weren't able to manage it due to personal failings (lack of seriousness and organisation from Boris, lack of communication skills from Truss).

    And so now we will go back to insiders who will fail, but fail in an acceptable manner.

    Much of Cummings critique of the civil service was and remains valid. The lack of understanding of statistics, maths and analytical skills, the pompous and pointless emphasis on precedent, hallowed procedures and the lack of technical skills for anything complicated. Unfortunately, and as per usual, his solutions did not work through to meaningful improvements. It was an opportunity to improve governance in this country but neither Cummings nor Boris had the stamina for it.
    The problem was that Cummings and Johnson didn't actually want to reform the civil service, they just didn't want them in the way. The fact that Cummings successfully articulated the civil service's failings in furtherance of these efforts shouldn't be read as implying he had any ideas for improvement, let alone the nous to pursue them. They were just two posh boys used to getting everything they wanted who didn't like anyone saying no to them.
    Its certainly true that they did not want them in the way. It is also the case, I think, that they were frustrated by both the lack of clear advice and the quality of the advice that they were given. I think Cummings idea of a group of iconoclasts with strong mathematical skills was one that might have been usefully pursued. A good friend of mine, who is very much not a Tory, was seriously interested in that at the time but, wisely, stayed with his professorship.

    We saw throughout the Covid pandemic the very poor quality of advice given; the failure to recognise bias and inherent caution, the failure to quantify consequences, the determination to apply simplistic mathematical models (exponential growth beyond the first few days of any outbreak being the most obvious) despite overwhelming and increasing evidence to the contrary. We blame our politicians for being useless, and they are, but jeez, trying to make decisions on the back of material like that...
    Except that isn't true. T
    darkage said:

    DavidL said:

    Watched the 2nd part of State of Chaos.

    It doesn't reflect well on Boris, but it also doesn't reflect well on the Civil Service either. Many of those interviewed came across as quite arrogant, particularly Lord MacDonald, with a "this is how we've always done things attitude"

    I'd be interested to know if they think the system is working better now. Clearly, Rishi is probably more to the Civil Service's liking but the Government is failing to deliver on his pledges.

    I'm of the view that actually the system did actually need a really good shake up but the tragedy is that Boris and Truss weren't able to manage it due to personal failings (lack of seriousness and organisation from Boris, lack of communication skills from Truss).

    And so now we will go back to insiders who will fail, but fail in an acceptable manner.

    Much of Cummings critique of the civil service was and remains valid. The lack of understanding of statistics, maths and analytical skills, the pompous and pointless emphasis on precedent, hallowed procedures and the lack of technical skills for anything complicated. Unfortunately, and as per usual, his solutions did not work through to meaningful improvements. It was an opportunity to improve governance in this country but neither Cummings nor Boris had the stamina for it.
    Cummings has some good criticisms of the civil service, and lots of people who work in the system would agree with them. The problem with Cummings is that he was overconfident in his own solutions, his approach to fixing them was too adversarial, it doesn't seem like he was listening much to others. So inevitably he ends up in the position of being a short term disrupter and he doesn't really achieve his potential or many of his stated goals.
    Cummings vision was to build a Bond Villian style lair populated by his tech bro minions watching a big board. Look how well that went.

    It is no surprise that the most dysfunctional departments of government now are the ones where the Civil Service cuts were deepest under Austerity.
    Cummings was and is a twat who believed his own IQ (of 143.8 probably) made his ideas more deserving of everyone else's.

    Johnson was an even bigger chump for buying that line.
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 5,398
    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    Russell Brand accuser calls his response to allegations ‘insulting’
    https://www.theguardian.com/culture/2023/sep/18/russell-brand-accuser-calls-his-response-to-allegations-insulting
    ...“It’s insulting,” Alice told BBC Radio 4’s Woman’s Hour on Monday. “And it’s laughable that he would even imply that this is some kind of mainstream media conspiracy. He’s not outside the mainstream – he did a Universal Pictures movie last year, he did Minions, a children’s movie.

    “He is very much part of the mainstream media, he just happens to have a YouTube channel where he talks about conspiracy theories to an audience that laps it up. And, it may sound cynical, but I do think that he was building himself an audience for years of people that would then have great distrust of any publication that came forward with allegations. He knew it was coming for a long time.

    “And then, as for him denying that anything non-consensual happened. That’s not a surprise to me. These men always deny any of the allegations brought to them – I knew he would. What he didn’t deny was that he had a relationship with a 16-year-old.”..



    Not quite sounding like an innocent victim there.
    The idea that victims have to behave in a specific way is one of the reasons why society does poorly at stopping sexual harassment.
    Exactly. "Victims" don't have to be "innocent". They may have made a lot of stupid mistakes or put themselves at risk. They may be vengeful after the event and angry. None of this is relevant. What is relevant is whether there was consent at the time freely given.
    I think the issue - on the basis of this guardian article - is that her complaint appears to be that she was only 16 at the time, not that she did not give consent. I made the point earlier that one way of interpreting this situation is that the media are using the complainants to sell stories, it makes no real difference to their commercial outcomes if 'justice' is done.
  • Eabhal said:

    The Welsh 20 mph petition is now really picking up steam. 109,135.

    I assume because a lot of Welsh drivers have only just made it home.

    Drivers in Wales have experienced the reality of default 20mph and do not like it

    It doesn't have to be this way as there is a case for 20mph round schools, hospitals and congested areas, but blanket no
    In England there is no way to enforce 20mph limits. There aren't any police to stand on every 20mph road with a laser gun, there isn't the money for speed cameras, there isn't even money to build restrictions to force 20mph such as humps or chicanes.

    In short it is window-dressing trying to encourage drivers to slow down. An effective advisory limit. So I can't see how Wales will be any different and I expect that most drivers will drive closer to 30mph than 20mph.
    The evidence from Edinburgh suggests the opposite. There has been zero enforcement there either, yet average speeds, collisions and injuries have all fallen.

    All it takes is one person on 9 points, a tourist, or a chaotic good like me, to hold everyone to 20mph. People stop bothering to overtake cyclists, because they will likely be re-overtaken at the next set of lights.

    And the universality of the limit helps too. 30mph starts to feel far too fast as drivers adjust to the "new normal". Cheaper too - need fewer signs.

    And in the cases where people are injured by a driver going 40, the sheriff/judge has much more justification for a lengthy ban etc
    When I said that drivers will do closer to 30mph I was referring to the non-urban areas which have been caught by this. It sounds like many Welsh councils had 30mph where it should be 40mph, and that is now 20mph.

    In urban areas? I absolutely agree people will slow down and have posted so repeatedly since the original (poor on my part) post which you've quoted.
  • AlistairM said:

    The difficult part is that a consensual sexual relationship between a 30yo and 16yo is not a crime as long as there is no position of authority involved. However, if a 16yo boy has sex with a 15yo girl though that is a crime but really should it be?

    I think we need to change the law around the age of consent to take comparative ages into consideration. For example, maybe something based on the age of the youngest participant in a sexual activity:
    - If 14yo, other participant(s) maximum age is 16yo
    - If 15yo, other participant(s) maximum age is 18yo
    - If 16yo, other participant(s) maximum age is 20yo
    - If 17yo, other participant(s) maximum age is 25yo
    - At 18yo then no restriction on maximum age

    This would make a 30yo having a relationship with a 16yo a crime but allow those 15yo/16yo relationships. A far more sensible solution in my view.

    For 14 and 15 year olds, that is in effect what we've got. Whilst a 16yo having sex with a 15yo is an offence, it will not be prosecuted if it is consensual.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,957

    TOPPING said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    I watched Dispatches last night. A lot of reflections on it, but as an aside - I wasn’t familiar with his work at the time really; just knew of him as a celeb.

    But Christ alive, his comedy was really nasty and unfunny. Obviously the doco pulls excerpts which are apt for the content (horribly so) but there’s not really much wit or invention there. Edgelord nonsense in a silly faux-cockerney voice. Also his Radio 2 stuff was unbelievably garbage - hard to credit now that he was given a slot. There was a real nastiness about the cultural landscape in the late 2000s (see also Vice magazine).

    Also he aged *badly*; a very handsome youth but quite the minger in his 30s onwards; now looking pretty pathetic and embarrassing.

    Whether or not any convictions come of this (and I think they will) it’s a slam dunk on his character. Horrible man.

    I happen to think Mrs Brown's Boys is not that funny. Others think it is the last word in hysterically funny comedy.

    Funny old world, eh.
    Mrs. Browns Boys has a 'Carry On' type of appeal and its messages are socially quite liberal. It's big failing is it's basically one joke repeated over and over.

    Brand OTOH was just cruel, nasty and stupid throughout.
    I know we all have exquisite taste and know the difference between a Monet and a Manet (and a Pouilly Fuisse and Pouilly Fume for that matter) but this is the intersection of bad taste and censorship.

    Again, not making any allowances whatsoever for any criminal activity, Brand has huge appeal to plenty of people for all kinds of reasons. Not you, it seems, but so what. You aren't his intended audience. You think it is cruel, nasty, and stupid. None of those things are necessarily illegal so I'm not getting the outrage.
This discussion has been closed.