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The SNP no longer top party in Scotland – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 11,731
edited September 2023 in General
imageThe SNP no longer top party in Scotland – politicalbetting.com

Above is the latest Scottish poll from R&W and as can be seen the SNP are now running neck and neck with LAB.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • Options
    Interesting times. The worry for Labour must be that, as in Britain as a whole, it is not enthusiasm for Labour's programme that is driving its poll ratings but rather voters giving up on shambolic governing parties.
  • Options
    538 politics podcast: Should We Trust Polls Campaigns Leak To The Press?
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0k43g4rSobc
  • Options
    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 27,200
    I think it's reached the stage where we need a general election immediately to clear the air.
  • Options
    Andy_JS said:

    I think it's reached the stage where we need a general election immediately to clear the air.

    Perhaps, but there is no obvious path to an early election. The government faces oblivion now, or can hang on a year in the hope that something will turn up.
  • Options
    The political elite has given up on Britain
    Labour and the Tories have joined forces to condemn Britain to national failure. Their views are virtually indistinguishable

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/2023/09/06/labour-and-tories-have-united-form-government-of-failure/ (£££)

    It is not just the Corbynistas then.
  • Options
    Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 13,397
    edited September 2023

    Interesting times. The worry for Labour must be that, as in Britain as a whole, it is not enthusiasm for Labour's programme that is driving its poll ratings but rather voters giving up on shambolic governing parties.

    Or you could take the more optimistic view that if and when Labour get in, all they have to do is govern in a moderately competent and non-ideological way, and they'll be fine. If they could also avoid corruption and major scandals, that would help too, but let's not set the bar too high.

    No reason at all to expect they will do so, of course, but as long as the hope is there....

    On topic, they should pick up at least 20 seats in Scotland, and I can't see them winning less then 100 off the Tories in England, so unlike Mike, I do think they will win an Overall Majority, quite possibly a clear one.

    The present Government is the rats arse. No limit to how low it can go,
  • Options
    HeathenerHeathener Posts: 5,431
    Good morning @MikeSmithson and all.

    Mike, this is one of several reasons why your views about a Labour majority could be wrong.

    Of course, Labour winning say 30 seats in Scotland does not alter the Cons-Lab swing dynamic but it does provide a powerful path to a Labour outright majority.
  • Options
    HeathenerHeathener Posts: 5,431
    edited September 2023

    Interesting times. The worry for Labour must be that, as in Britain as a whole, it is not enthusiasm for Labour's programme that is driving its poll ratings but rather voters giving up on shambolic governing parties.


    On topic, they should pick up at least 20 seats in Scotland, and I can't see them winning less then 100 off the Tories in England, so unlike Mike, I do think they will win an Overall Majority, quite possibly a clear one.

    The present Government is the rats arse. No limit to how low it can go,
    You and I have just said the same thing in different ways.

    I quite agree with you.
  • Options

    The political elite has given up on Britain
    Labour and the Tories have joined forces to condemn Britain to national failure. Their views are virtually indistinguishable

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/2023/09/06/labour-and-tories-have-united-form-government-of-failure/ (£££)

    It is not just the Corbynistas then.

    Without reading it let me guess the gist: we just need to believe in ourselves more so that we can capitalise on the benefits of Brexit?
  • Options
    HeathenerHeathener Posts: 5,431
    edited September 2023

    Interesting times. The worry for Labour must be that, as in Britain as a whole, it is not enthusiasm for Labour's programme that is driving its poll ratings but rather voters giving up on shambolic governing parties.

    Interesting this. The last time two sea-changes occurred in my lifetime they were iirc different.

    1978/9 The Winter of Discontent was in some ways similar to now. A shambolic government, perilous economy, and disillusion with the governing party. I don't recall there being much, or any, great enthusiasm for Margaret Thatcher prior to her famous victory. In fact, quite the opposite. There was a lot of suspicion about her, particularly as a woman and whether she would be up to the job.

    1997 was clearly massive enthusiasm for Tony Blair combined with disillusion at a shambolic governing party - although that shambles was in fact delivering Britain in superb economic health. Black Wednesday ironically paved the way for Britain's prosperity.

    So my assessment is that this time is more like 1978/9.

    And Mike's comparison with 1992 is wildly out. The circumstances bear no relation to the metrics then in the governing party, the state of the country, or the opposition. And Starmer may not be full of pizzazz but he's no Neil Kinnock (who had far too much pizzazz - see Sheffield).
  • Options
    HeathenerHeathener Posts: 5,431
    edited September 2023

    The political elite has given up on Britain
    Labour and the Tories have joined forces to condemn Britain to national failure. Their views are virtually indistinguishable

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/2023/09/06/labour-and-tories-have-united-form-government-of-failure/ (£££)

    It is not just the Corbynistas then.

    Without reading it let me guess the gist: we just need to believe in ourselves more so that we can capitalise on the benefits of Brexit?
    I used to read the Telegraph but I've given up. Not so much its politics per se but the reactionary nature of it now. Take today's front page. 5 of the 6 pieces on the front are reactionary anti-woke. There's even one having a dig about climate change. It's not that there aren't news stories embedded within. It's that they are dressed up in increasingly embittered language by old people raging against the dying of the light.
  • Options
    Heathener said:

    The political elite has given up on Britain
    Labour and the Tories have joined forces to condemn Britain to national failure. Their views are virtually indistinguishable

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/2023/09/06/labour-and-tories-have-united-form-government-of-failure/ (£££)

    It is not just the Corbynistas then.

    Without reading it let me guess the gist: we just need to believe in ourselves more so that we can capitalise on the benefits of Brexit?
    I used to read the Telegraph but I've given up. Not so much its politics per se but the reactionary nature of it now. Take today's front page. 5 of the 6 pieces on the front are reactionary anti-woke. There's even one having a dig about climate change. It's not that there aren't news stories embedded within. It's that they are dressed up in increasingly embittered language by old people raging against the dying of the light.
    A neat summation of the current government. Notable in the Rees-Mogg spat the other day was that he criticised the lack of things being done by the government. Parliament sits with short days because there is nothing being done by the government.

    The public are clear that the country is falling apart all around them. Yet the government not only does nothing, it seems to be it absolute denial that is happening. Note the RAAC scandal - Sunak insists that he increased funding as he cut it, that a lack of complaints by Starmer means there is no problem, and anyway most students won't be eaten by the shark therefore there is no shark.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,601
    edited September 2023
    Heathener said:

    The political elite has given up on Britain
    Labour and the Tories have joined forces to condemn Britain to national failure. Their views are virtually indistinguishable

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/2023/09/06/labour-and-tories-have-united-form-government-of-failure/ (£££)

    It is not just the Corbynistas then.

    Without reading it let me guess the gist: we just need to believe in ourselves more so that we can capitalise on the benefits of Brexit?
    I used to read the Telegraph but I've given up. Not so much its politics per se but the reactionary nature of it now. Take today's front page. 5 of the 6 pieces on the front are reactionary anti-woke. There's even one having a dig about climate change. It's not that there aren't news stories embedded within. It's that they are dressed up in increasingly embittered language by old people raging against the dying of the light.
    I'm shocked that you ever read it. It was always only for reactionary granddads, and that was when it at least tried to be a serious newspaper.

    A very big part of its circulation now is freebies to hotels and the like, and cheapo subscription deals pitched at the elderly.
  • Options
    https://www.theguardian.com/money/2023/sep/07/britons-view-work-less-important-other-nationalities-study

    Britons are less likely to view work as important than people in any other country surveyed. I'm kind of torn on whether this is a good thing or not, but it's certainly an interesting development.
  • Options
    On topic - is it correct that Labour's support in Scotland is a bit more efficient, in terms of geographical spread, than the SNP's? If so, a poll like this ought to give Labour the most seats in Scotland, no? The SNP might take some seats off the Tories, but Labour should take a lot of central belt seats back. Interesting times.
  • Options
    IanB2 said:

    Heathener said:

    The political elite has given up on Britain
    Labour and the Tories have joined forces to condemn Britain to national failure. Their views are virtually indistinguishable

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/2023/09/06/labour-and-tories-have-united-form-government-of-failure/ (£££)

    It is not just the Corbynistas then.

    Without reading it let me guess the gist: we just need to believe in ourselves more so that we can capitalise on the benefits of Brexit?
    I used to read the Telegraph but I've given up. Not so much its politics per se but the reactionary nature of it now. Take today's front page. 5 of the 6 pieces on the front are reactionary anti-woke. There's even one having a dig about climate change. It's not that there aren't news stories embedded within. It's that they are dressed up in increasingly embittered language by old people raging against the dying of the light.
    I'm shocked that you ever read it. It was always only for reactionary granddads, and that was when it at least tried to be a serious newspaper.

    A very big part of its circulation now is freebies to hotels and the like, and cheapo subscription deals pitched at the elderly.
    My grandma - a working class Tory made good - always read the Telegraph. But she was no mindless reactionary and voted Remain. I wonder what she'd make of the paper now.
  • Options
    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 28,071

    On topic - is it correct that Labour's support in Scotland is a bit more efficient, in terms of geographical spread, than the SNP's? If so, a poll like this ought to give Labour the most seats in Scotland, no? The SNP might take some seats off the Tories, but Labour should take a lot of central belt seats back. Interesting times.

    Isn't the reason for this that Labour are a huge proportion of people's second choice?
    That is. They'll take some Con/LD voters in an SNP/Lab contest. (They'd take a fair few SNP in Lab/Con/LD ones too. But there aren't any now).
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 45,038
    What's the odds that the 1% of the population that thinks Truss did very well all post here?



    Presumably the Lab voters saying "very well" meant very well at trashing the Tory Party.
  • Options
    HeathenerHeathener Posts: 5,431
    edited September 2023
    IanB2 said:

    Heathener said:

    The political elite has given up on Britain
    Labour and the Tories have joined forces to condemn Britain to national failure. Their views are virtually indistinguishable

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/2023/09/06/labour-and-tories-have-united-form-government-of-failure/ (£££)

    It is not just the Corbynistas then.

    Without reading it let me guess the gist: we just need to believe in ourselves more so that we can capitalise on the benefits of Brexit?
    I used to read the Telegraph but I've given up. Not so much its politics per se but the reactionary nature of it now. Take today's front page. 5 of the 6 pieces on the front are reactionary anti-woke. There's even one having a dig about climate change. It's not that there aren't news stories embedded within. It's that they are dressed up in increasingly embittered language by old people raging against the dying of the light.
    I'm shocked that you ever read it. It was always only for reactionary granddads, and that was when it at least tried to be a serious newspaper.

    A very big part of its circulation now is freebies to hotels and the like, and cheapo subscription deals pitched at the elderly.
    Hi Ian. Well I thought the journalism was pretty high standard once. The Saturday paper was a great buy. I'd counter it with the Guardian website, mind ;)

    I don't mind reading views that are different from my own, it's good for me, as long as they're well reasoned. But two or three years ago the Telegraph just seemed to lose it. People like Allison Pearson and Charles Moore went off the edge. And then they were joined by the Economics / Business & Money section, which used to be really good, but which also seemed to go full tonto. They had a particularly bad patch when they were still defending Trussonomics long after it was derided.
  • Options
    rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,929
    IanB2 said:

    Heathener said:

    The political elite has given up on Britain
    Labour and the Tories have joined forces to condemn Britain to national failure. Their views are virtually indistinguishable

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/2023/09/06/labour-and-tories-have-united-form-government-of-failure/ (£££)

    It is not just the Corbynistas then.

    Without reading it let me guess the gist: we just need to believe in ourselves more so that we can capitalise on the benefits of Brexit?
    I used to read the Telegraph but I've given up. Not so much its politics per se but the reactionary nature of it now. Take today's front page. 5 of the 6 pieces on the front are reactionary anti-woke. There's even one having a dig about climate change. It's not that there aren't news stories embedded within. It's that they are dressed up in increasingly embittered language by old people raging against the dying of the light.
    I'm shocked that you ever read it. It was always only for reactionary granddads, and that was when it at least tried to be a serious newspaper.

    A very big part of its circulation now is freebies to hotels and the like, and cheapo subscription deals pitched at the elderly.
    I used to read some of the columnists like Daniel Hannan because they seemed intelligent people I disagreed with. That side of it seems to have gone now I think.
  • Options
    Heathener said:

    Good morning @MikeSmithson and all.

    Mike, this is one of several reasons why your views about a Labour majority could be wrong.

    Of course, Labour winning say 30 seats in Scotland does not alter the Cons-Lab swing dynamic but it does provide a powerful path to a Labour outright majority.

    Well you would say that wouldn't you. Your eyes are blinkered by hatred of the Tories.
  • Options
    Heathener said:

    Interesting times. The worry for Labour must be that, as in Britain as a whole, it is not enthusiasm for Labour's programme that is driving its poll ratings but rather voters giving up on shambolic governing parties.


    On topic, they should pick up at least 20 seats in Scotland, and I can't see them winning less then 100 off the Tories in England, so unlike Mike, I do think they will win an Overall Majority, quite possibly a clear one.

    The present Government is the rats arse. No limit to how low it can go,
    You and I have just said the same thing in different ways.

    I quite agree with you.
    Well you would wouldn't you.
  • Options
    HeathenerHeathener Posts: 5,431
    Have a nice day @squareroot2

    ;):D
  • Options
    bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 8,071

    Heathener said:

    Good morning @MikeSmithson and all.

    Mike, this is one of several reasons why your views about a Labour majority could be wrong.

    Of course, Labour winning say 30 seats in Scotland does not alter the Cons-Lab swing dynamic but it does provide a powerful path to a Labour outright majority.

    Well you would say that wouldn't you. Your eyes are blinkered by hatred of the Tories.
    If you think Heathener is wrong, there are plenty of attractive betting options on the Tories doing well at the next general election,
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,919

    IanB2 said:

    Heathener said:

    The political elite has given up on Britain
    Labour and the Tories have joined forces to condemn Britain to national failure. Their views are virtually indistinguishable

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/2023/09/06/labour-and-tories-have-united-form-government-of-failure/ (£££)

    It is not just the Corbynistas then.

    Without reading it let me guess the gist: we just need to believe in ourselves more so that we can capitalise on the benefits of Brexit?
    I used to read the Telegraph but I've given up. Not so much its politics per se but the reactionary nature of it now. Take today's front page. 5 of the 6 pieces on the front are reactionary anti-woke. There's even one having a dig about climate change. It's not that there aren't news stories embedded within. It's that they are dressed up in increasingly embittered language by old people raging against the dying of the light.
    I'm shocked that you ever read it. It was always only for reactionary granddads, and that was when it at least tried to be a serious newspaper.

    A very big part of its circulation now is freebies to hotels and the like, and cheapo subscription deals pitched at the elderly.
    My grandma - a working class Tory made good - always read the Telegraph. But she was no mindless reactionary and voted Remain. I wonder what she'd make of the paper now.
    I tend to read multiple papers - following advice from my father who thought that Guardian, Times, Independent & Telegraph (plus Economist) combined might get you some actual information. Averaging the coverage, as it were.

    As to the charge that “both parties are the same” - it’s like fractals. At one level they look similar. At another they are different.

    Both are mixed, regulated market, social democracy parties. But that doesn’t mean there can’t be a big difference between what they do with that.

    If upsets people that we don’t have a Rodderick Spode style RSS or that Maomentum is in the wilderness, then I am quite glad that they are upset.

    Sorry Komrades. Sir Kid Starver isn’t going to be shooting kulaks for LOLs. So fucking what?
  • Options
    rkrkrk said:

    IanB2 said:

    Heathener said:

    The political elite has given up on Britain
    Labour and the Tories have joined forces to condemn Britain to national failure. Their views are virtually indistinguishable

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/2023/09/06/labour-and-tories-have-united-form-government-of-failure/ (£££)

    It is not just the Corbynistas then.

    Without reading it let me guess the gist: we just need to believe in ourselves more so that we can capitalise on the benefits of Brexit?
    I used to read the Telegraph but I've given up. Not so much its politics per se but the reactionary nature of it now. Take today's front page. 5 of the 6 pieces on the front are reactionary anti-woke. There's even one having a dig about climate change. It's not that there aren't news stories embedded within. It's that they are dressed up in increasingly embittered language by old people raging against the dying of the light.
    I'm shocked that you ever read it. It was always only for reactionary granddads, and that was when it at least tried to be a serious newspaper.

    A very big part of its circulation now is freebies to hotels and the like, and cheapo subscription deals pitched at the elderly.
    I used to read some of the columnists like Daniel Hannan because they seemed intelligent people I disagreed with. That side of it seems to have gone now I think.
    I went off Daniel Hannan. He disappeared and hid when Brexit didn't go the way he wanted it to and then crept up now and again to throw rocks in his column.

    Very little respect for that. Gove put his shoulder to the wheel.
  • Options
    HeathenerHeathener Posts: 5,431

    IanB2 said:

    Heathener said:

    The political elite has given up on Britain
    Labour and the Tories have joined forces to condemn Britain to national failure. Their views are virtually indistinguishable

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/2023/09/06/labour-and-tories-have-united-form-government-of-failure/ (£££)

    It is not just the Corbynistas then.

    Without reading it let me guess the gist: we just need to believe in ourselves more so that we can capitalise on the benefits of Brexit?
    I used to read the Telegraph but I've given up. Not so much its politics per se but the reactionary nature of it now. Take today's front page. 5 of the 6 pieces on the front are reactionary anti-woke. There's even one having a dig about climate change. It's not that there aren't news stories embedded within. It's that they are dressed up in increasingly embittered language by old people raging against the dying of the light.
    I'm shocked that you ever read it. It was always only for reactionary granddads, and that was when it at least tried to be a serious newspaper.

    A very big part of its circulation now is freebies to hotels and the like, and cheapo subscription deals pitched at the elderly.
    My grandma - a working class Tory made good - always read the Telegraph. But she was no mindless reactionary and voted Remain. I wonder what she'd make of the paper now.
    My Surrey tory friend, with whom I'm staying this week, still takes the Saturday Telegraph but I don't think she's exactly enamoured of the current state of things. 90% of what she says politically seems to be a vent against the current governing Conservatives. And she thinks Sunak is awful, but then she loved Boris and still does.

    I have a socialist friend in Yorkshire who used to read the Telegraph avidly for the journalism but those days have passed.
  • Options

    Heathener said:

    The political elite has given up on Britain
    Labour and the Tories have joined forces to condemn Britain to national failure. Their views are virtually indistinguishable

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/2023/09/06/labour-and-tories-have-united-form-government-of-failure/ (£££)

    It is not just the Corbynistas then.

    Without reading it let me guess the gist: we just need to believe in ourselves more so that we can capitalise on the benefits of Brexit?
    I used to read the Telegraph but I've given up. Not so much its politics per se but the reactionary nature of it now. Take today's front page. 5 of the 6 pieces on the front are reactionary anti-woke. There's even one having a dig about climate change. It's not that there aren't news stories embedded within. It's that they are dressed up in increasingly embittered language by old people raging against the dying of the light.
    A neat summation of the current government. Notable in the Rees-Mogg spat the other day was that he criticised the lack of things being done by the government. Parliament sits with short days because there is nothing being done by the government.

    The public are clear that the country is falling apart all around them. Yet the government not only does nothing, it seems to be it absolute denial that is happening. Note the RAAC scandal - Sunak insists that he increased funding as he cut it, that a lack of complaints by Starmer means there is no problem, and anyway most students won't be eaten by the shark therefore there is no shark.
    I asked my Dad, who is a buildings surveyor working for a local authority, about the concrete. He was quite dismissive, feeling it's been blown out of proportion by structural engineers who stand to gain masses of work by the crisis. I tend to agree.
  • Options
    eekeek Posts: 25,137
    Once the SNP fall below 40% suddenly Labour have a chance of winning 25 or so seats in Scotland.

    And that significantly changes the odds of a Labour majority and equally the chance of a large Labour majority..
  • Options
    HeathenerHeathener Posts: 5,431
    edited September 2023

    rkrkrk said:

    IanB2 said:

    Heathener said:

    The political elite has given up on Britain
    Labour and the Tories have joined forces to condemn Britain to national failure. Their views are virtually indistinguishable

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/2023/09/06/labour-and-tories-have-united-form-government-of-failure/ (£££)

    It is not just the Corbynistas then.

    Without reading it let me guess the gist: we just need to believe in ourselves more so that we can capitalise on the benefits of Brexit?
    I used to read the Telegraph but I've given up. Not so much its politics per se but the reactionary nature of it now. Take today's front page. 5 of the 6 pieces on the front are reactionary anti-woke. There's even one having a dig about climate change. It's not that there aren't news stories embedded within. It's that they are dressed up in increasingly embittered language by old people raging against the dying of the light.
    I'm shocked that you ever read it. It was always only for reactionary granddads, and that was when it at least tried to be a serious newspaper.

    A very big part of its circulation now is freebies to hotels and the like, and cheapo subscription deals pitched at the elderly.
    I used to read some of the columnists like Daniel Hannan because they seemed intelligent people I disagreed with. That side of it seems to have gone now I think.
    I went off Daniel Hannan. He disappeared and hid when Brexit didn't go the way he wanted it to and then crept up now and again to throw rocks in his column.

    Very little respect for that. Gove put his shoulder to the wheel.
    You and I have our differences but I quite agree about Daniel Hannan. He's very slippery.

    Assuming they do indeed lose this next time, the Conservative Party will bounce back. I think they will have one last hopeless lurch to the right and then the sensible heads and hearts will return. By that stage Labour will be starting to fuck things up, because they always do, and there will be a wide open goal in the centre of the pitch for the Conservatives to come back through.

    There is always a place for a centre-right conservative party in this country because they have traditionally been the better custodians of money: both personal and public.

    It's a startling travesty that they have somehow contrived to screw that completely: messing up both the public and personal finances.
  • Options
    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,883

    On topic - is it correct that Labour's support in Scotland is a bit more efficient, in terms of geographical spread, than the SNP's? If so, a poll like this ought to give Labour the most seats in Scotland, no? The SNP might take some seats off the Tories, but Labour should take a lot of central belt seats back. Interesting times.

    The SNP vote is very evenly spread across the constituencies. As its vote share drops it goes from being first everywhere to second everywhere under FPTP. The reverse of 2015. It's a bit complex where Labour and SNP total vote is the same as Labour vote distribution is a bit lumpier
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 45,038

    Heathener said:

    The political elite has given up on Britain
    Labour and the Tories have joined forces to condemn Britain to national failure. Their views are virtually indistinguishable

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/2023/09/06/labour-and-tories-have-united-form-government-of-failure/ (£££)

    It is not just the Corbynistas then.

    Without reading it let me guess the gist: we just need to believe in ourselves more so that we can capitalise on the benefits of Brexit?
    I used to read the Telegraph but I've given up. Not so much its politics per se but the reactionary nature of it now. Take today's front page. 5 of the 6 pieces on the front are reactionary anti-woke. There's even one having a dig about climate change. It's not that there aren't news stories embedded within. It's that they are dressed up in increasingly embittered language by old people raging against the dying of the light.
    A neat summation of the current government. Notable in the Rees-Mogg spat the other day was that he criticised the lack of things being done by the government. Parliament sits with short days because there is nothing being done by the government.

    The public are clear that the country is falling apart all around them. Yet the government not only does nothing, it seems to be it absolute denial that is happening. Note the RAAC scandal - Sunak insists that he increased funding as he cut it, that a lack of complaints by Starmer means there is no problem, and anyway most students won't be eaten by the shark therefore there is no shark.
    I asked my Dad, who is a buildings surveyor working for a local authority, about the concrete. He was quite dismissive, feeling it's been blown out of proportion by structural engineers who stand to gain masses of work by the crisis. I tend to agree.
    Hospital corridor in West Sussex Hospital.


  • Options

    Heathener said:

    The political elite has given up on Britain
    Labour and the Tories have joined forces to condemn Britain to national failure. Their views are virtually indistinguishable

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/2023/09/06/labour-and-tories-have-united-form-government-of-failure/ (£££)

    It is not just the Corbynistas then.

    Without reading it let me guess the gist: we just need to believe in ourselves more so that we can capitalise on the benefits of Brexit?
    I used to read the Telegraph but I've given up. Not so much its politics per se but the reactionary nature of it now. Take today's front page. 5 of the 6 pieces on the front are reactionary anti-woke. There's even one having a dig about climate change. It's not that there aren't news stories embedded within. It's that they are dressed up in increasingly embittered language by old people raging against the dying of the light.
    A neat summation of the current government. Notable in the Rees-Mogg spat the other day was that he criticised the lack of things being done by the government. Parliament sits with short days because there is nothing being done by the government.

    The public are clear that the country is falling apart all around them. Yet the government not only does nothing, it seems to be it absolute denial that is happening. Note the RAAC scandal - Sunak insists that he increased funding as he cut it, that a lack of complaints by Starmer means there is no problem, and anyway most students won't be eaten by the shark therefore there is no shark.
    I asked my Dad, who is a buildings surveyor working for a local authority, about the concrete. He was quite dismissive, feeling it's been blown out of proportion by structural engineers who stand to gain masses of work by the crisis. I tend to agree.
    He is exactly right, people keep using the term "crumbling" when talking about Schools. How many school buildings have collapsed, how many injuries have occured?
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 45,038
    Meanwhile in classic "Red Wall" territory:

    "Trust whose rebuild was inexplicably dropped from '40 new hospitals' faces ‘enforced closure’ risk due to estate problems

    Risks at Doncaster 'potentially greater' than RAAC, & require an 'equally urgent response', says trust

    from @HMAnderson39"

    https://twitter.com/LawrenceDunhill/status/1699395255198699832?t=6uRzm9gS6Yt-6VBpErFj6g&s=19
  • Options
    Heathener said:

    IanB2 said:

    Heathener said:

    The political elite has given up on Britain
    Labour and the Tories have joined forces to condemn Britain to national failure. Their views are virtually indistinguishable

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/2023/09/06/labour-and-tories-have-united-form-government-of-failure/ (£££)

    It is not just the Corbynistas then.

    Without reading it let me guess the gist: we just need to believe in ourselves more so that we can capitalise on the benefits of Brexit?
    I used to read the Telegraph but I've given up. Not so much its politics per se but the reactionary nature of it now. Take today's front page. 5 of the 6 pieces on the front are reactionary anti-woke. There's even one having a dig about climate change. It's not that there aren't news stories embedded within. It's that they are dressed up in increasingly embittered language by old people raging against the dying of the light.
    I'm shocked that you ever read it. It was always only for reactionary granddads, and that was when it at least tried to be a serious newspaper.

    A very big part of its circulation now is freebies to hotels and the like, and cheapo subscription deals pitched at the elderly.
    Hi Ian. Well I thought the journalism was pretty high standard once. The Saturday paper was a great buy. I'd counter it with the Guardian website, mind ;)

    I don't mind reading views that are different from my own, it's good for me, as long as they're well reasoned. But two or three years ago the Telegraph just seemed to lose it. People like Allison Pearson and Charles Moore went off the edge. And then they were joined by the Economics / Business & Money section, which used to be really good, but which also seemed to go full tonto. They had a particularly bad patch when they were still defending Trussonomics long after it was derided.
    Trussonomics doesn't need defending, now that 'Responsible Rishinomics' has driven bond yields higher than Truss ever took them, and yet no resignation in sight.

    The article is correct. 19 Tories voted against the recent shitty energy bill - that's the sum of MPs working in the interests of consumers in the House. Labout tried to amend it to be even worse for domestic energy production than it already was.
  • Options
    Foxy said:

    Heathener said:

    The political elite has given up on Britain
    Labour and the Tories have joined forces to condemn Britain to national failure. Their views are virtually indistinguishable

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/2023/09/06/labour-and-tories-have-united-form-government-of-failure/ (£££)

    It is not just the Corbynistas then.

    Without reading it let me guess the gist: we just need to believe in ourselves more so that we can capitalise on the benefits of Brexit?
    I used to read the Telegraph but I've given up. Not so much its politics per se but the reactionary nature of it now. Take today's front page. 5 of the 6 pieces on the front are reactionary anti-woke. There's even one having a dig about climate change. It's not that there aren't news stories embedded within. It's that they are dressed up in increasingly embittered language by old people raging against the dying of the light.
    A neat summation of the current government. Notable in the Rees-Mogg spat the other day was that he criticised the lack of things being done by the government. Parliament sits with short days because there is nothing being done by the government.

    The public are clear that the country is falling apart all around them. Yet the government not only does nothing, it seems to be it absolute denial that is happening. Note the RAAC scandal - Sunak insists that he increased funding as he cut it, that a lack of complaints by Starmer means there is no problem, and anyway most students won't be eaten by the shark therefore there is no shark.
    I asked my Dad, who is a buildings surveyor working for a local authority, about the concrete. He was quite dismissive, feeling it's been blown out of proportion by structural engineers who stand to gain masses of work by the crisis. I tend to agree.
    Hospital corridor in West Sussex Hospital.


    What's your point?
  • Options
    Heathener said:

    IanB2 said:

    Heathener said:

    The political elite has given up on Britain
    Labour and the Tories have joined forces to condemn Britain to national failure. Their views are virtually indistinguishable

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/2023/09/06/labour-and-tories-have-united-form-government-of-failure/ (£££)

    It is not just the Corbynistas then.

    Without reading it let me guess the gist: we just need to believe in ourselves more so that we can capitalise on the benefits of Brexit?
    I used to read the Telegraph but I've given up. Not so much its politics per se but the reactionary nature of it now. Take today's front page. 5 of the 6 pieces on the front are reactionary anti-woke. There's even one having a dig about climate change. It's not that there aren't news stories embedded within. It's that they are dressed up in increasingly embittered language by old people raging against the dying of the light.
    I'm shocked that you ever read it. It was always only for reactionary granddads, and that was when it at least tried to be a serious newspaper.

    A very big part of its circulation now is freebies to hotels and the like, and cheapo subscription deals pitched at the elderly.
    My grandma - a working class Tory made good - always read the Telegraph. But she was no mindless reactionary and voted Remain. I wonder what she'd make of the paper now.
    My Surrey tory friend, with whom I'm staying this week, still takes the Saturday Telegraph but I don't think she's exactly enamoured of the current state of things. 90% of what she says politically seems to be a vent against the current governing Conservatives. And she thinks Sunak is awful, but then she loved Boris and still does.


    I have a socialist friend in Yorkshire who used to read the Telegraph avidly for the journalism but those days have passed.
    I have an anarchist friend in Sofia and she swears by the Guardian.
  • Options
    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,954
    edited September 2023
    Andy_JS said:

    I think it's reached the stage where we need a general election immediately to clear the air.

    Another year to go yet, methinks. But this time next year we really will be on election countdown!

    Oh, and good morning PB.
  • Options

    Heathener said:

    The political elite has given up on Britain
    Labour and the Tories have joined forces to condemn Britain to national failure. Their views are virtually indistinguishable

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/2023/09/06/labour-and-tories-have-united-form-government-of-failure/ (£££)

    It is not just the Corbynistas then.

    Without reading it let me guess the gist: we just need to believe in ourselves more so that we can capitalise on the benefits of Brexit?
    I used to read the Telegraph but I've given up. Not so much its politics per se but the reactionary nature of it now. Take today's front page. 5 of the 6 pieces on the front are reactionary anti-woke. There's even one having a dig about climate change. It's not that there aren't news stories embedded within. It's that they are dressed up in increasingly embittered language by old people raging against the dying of the light.
    A neat summation of the current government. Notable in the Rees-Mogg spat the other day was that he criticised the lack of things being done by the government. Parliament sits with short days because there is nothing being done by the government.

    The public are clear that the country is falling apart all around them. Yet the government not only does nothing, it seems to be it absolute denial that is happening. Note the RAAC scandal - Sunak insists that he increased funding as he cut it, that a lack of complaints by Starmer means there is no problem, and anyway most students won't be eaten by the shark therefore there is no shark.
    I asked my Dad, who is a buildings surveyor working for a local authority, about the concrete. He was quite dismissive, feeling it's been blown out of proportion by
    structural engineers who stand to gain masses of work by the crisis. I tend to agree.
    It’s more the stupid precautionary principle that has infected so much of our decision making in the public sphere.

    The “right” answer is to survey all the school , mitigate, secure and fix. Not to close schools. But our politicians, driven by social media, are liable to panic. There is no upside for them doing the right thing and if even one kid gets hurt their career is over. So they overreact.
  • Options
    HeathenerHeathener Posts: 5,431

    Heathener said:

    The political elite has given up on Britain
    Labour and the Tories have joined forces to condemn Britain to national failure. Their views are virtually indistinguishable

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/2023/09/06/labour-and-tories-have-united-form-government-of-failure/ (£££)

    It is not just the Corbynistas then.

    Without reading it let me guess the gist: we just need to believe in ourselves more so that we can capitalise on the benefits of Brexit?
    I used to read the Telegraph but I've given up. Not so much its politics per se but the reactionary nature of it now. Take today's front page. 5 of the 6 pieces on the front are reactionary anti-woke. There's even one having a dig about climate change. It's not that there aren't news stories embedded within. It's that they are dressed up in increasingly embittered language by old people raging against the dying of the light.
    A neat summation of the current government. Notable in the Rees-Mogg spat the other day was that he criticised the lack of things being done by the government. Parliament sits with short days because there is nothing being done by the government.

    The public are clear that the country is falling apart all around them. Yet the government not only does nothing, it seems to be it absolute denial that is happening. Note the RAAC scandal - Sunak insists that he increased funding as he cut it, that a lack of complaints by Starmer means there is no problem, and anyway most students won't be eaten by the shark therefore there is no shark.
    I asked my Dad, who is a buildings surveyor working for a local authority, about the concrete. He was quite dismissive, feeling it's been blown out of proportion by structural engineers who stand to gain masses of work by the crisis. I tend to agree.
    He is exactly right, people keep using the term "crumbling" when talking about Schools. How many school buildings have collapsed, how many injuries have occured?
    My sister is working in a hospital whose roof is literally being held up by vertical shoring.

    And we're supposed to await school children being injured or dying before we act?

    Another example of a tory with their head in the sand. And tone deaf to what's going wrong.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 45,038

    Foxy said:

    Heathener said:

    The political elite has given up on Britain
    Labour and the Tories have joined forces to condemn Britain to national failure. Their views are virtually indistinguishable

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/2023/09/06/labour-and-tories-have-united-form-government-of-failure/ (£££)

    It is not just the Corbynistas then.

    Without reading it let me guess the gist: we just need to believe in ourselves more so that we can capitalise on the benefits of Brexit?
    I used to read the Telegraph but I've given up. Not so much its politics per se but the reactionary nature of it now. Take today's front page. 5 of the 6 pieces on the front are reactionary anti-woke. There's even one having a dig about climate change. It's not that there aren't news stories embedded within. It's that they are dressed up in increasingly embittered language by old people raging against the dying of the light.
    A neat summation of the current government. Notable in the Rees-Mogg spat the other day was that he criticised the lack of things being done by the government. Parliament sits with short days because there is nothing being done by the government.

    The public are clear that the country is falling apart all around them. Yet the government not only does nothing, it seems to be it absolute denial that is happening. Note the RAAC scandal - Sunak insists that he increased funding as he cut it, that a lack of complaints by Starmer means there is no problem, and anyway most students won't be eaten by the shark therefore there is no shark.
    I asked my Dad, who is a buildings surveyor working for a local authority, about the concrete. He was quite dismissive, feeling it's been blown out of proportion by structural engineers who stand to gain masses of work by the crisis. I tend to agree.
    Hospital corridor in West Sussex Hospital.


    What's your point?
    The roof is being held up by props following an assessment by the Hospital estates staff.

    They are not the contractors.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,919
    Heathener said:

    rkrkrk said:

    IanB2 said:

    Heathener said:

    The political elite has given up on Britain
    Labour and the Tories have joined forces to condemn Britain to national failure. Their views are virtually indistinguishable

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/2023/09/06/labour-and-tories-have-united-form-government-of-failure/ (£££)

    It is not just the Corbynistas then.

    Without reading it let me guess the gist: we just need to believe in ourselves more so that we can capitalise on the benefits of Brexit?
    I used to read the Telegraph but I've given up. Not so much its politics per se but the reactionary nature of it now. Take today's front page. 5 of the 6 pieces on the front are reactionary anti-woke. There's even one having a dig about climate change. It's not that there aren't news stories embedded within. It's that they are dressed up in increasingly embittered language by old people raging against the dying of the light.
    I'm shocked that you ever read it. It was always only for reactionary granddads, and that was when it at least tried to be a serious newspaper.

    A very big part of its circulation now is freebies to hotels and the like, and cheapo subscription deals pitched at the elderly.
    I used to read some of the columnists like Daniel Hannan because they seemed intelligent people I disagreed with. That side of it seems to have gone now I think.
    I went off Daniel Hannan. He disappeared and hid when Brexit didn't go the way he wanted it to and then crept up now and again to throw rocks in his column.

    Very little respect for that. Gove put his shoulder to the wheel.
    You and I have our differences but I quite agree about Daniel Hannan. He's very slippery.

    Assuming they do indeed lose this next time, the Conservative Party will bounce back. I think they will have one last hopeless lurch to the right and then the sensible heads and hearts will return. By that stage Labour will be starting to fuck things up, because they always do, and there will be a wide open goal in the centre of the pitch for the Conservatives to come back through.

    There is always a place for a centre-right conservative party in this country because they have traditionally been the better custodians of money: both personal and public.

    It's a startling travesty that they have somehow contrived to screw that completely: messing up both the public and personal finances.
    It’s not that either party doesn’t have the answers. As that the contradictions in the premises and questions can’t even be asked.

    What we want, apparently -

    1) low inflation
    2) 5% growth
    3) a soaring population
    4) absolutely no building or development of any kind
    5) and any of 4) we manage to do needs to take 20 years and 500k pages of guff that not even the lawyers read.

    Schools apparently cost more, per sqm, to build than luxury properties for the mega rich.

    I’m sure this process feeds the hungry children of many lawyers, consultants and accountants. And so is worthy and untouchable.
  • Options
    bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 8,071

    Heathener said:

    The political elite has given up on Britain
    Labour and the Tories have joined forces to condemn Britain to national failure. Their views are virtually indistinguishable

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/2023/09/06/labour-and-tories-have-united-form-government-of-failure/ (£££)

    It is not just the Corbynistas then.

    Without reading it let me guess the gist: we just need to believe in ourselves more so that we can capitalise on the benefits of Brexit?
    I used to read the Telegraph but I've given up. Not so much its politics per se but the reactionary nature of it now. Take today's front page. 5 of the 6 pieces on the front are reactionary anti-woke. There's even one having a dig about climate change. It's not that there aren't news stories embedded within. It's that they are dressed up in increasingly embittered language by old people raging against the dying of the light.
    A neat summation of the current government. Notable in the Rees-Mogg spat the other day was that he criticised the lack of things being done by the government. Parliament sits with short days because there is nothing being done by the government.

    The public are clear that the country is falling apart all around them. Yet the government not only does nothing, it seems to be it absolute denial that is happening. Note the RAAC scandal - Sunak insists that he increased funding as he cut it, that a lack of complaints by Starmer means there is no problem, and anyway most students won't be eaten by the shark therefore there is no shark.
    I asked my Dad, who is a buildings surveyor working for a local authority, about the concrete. He was quite dismissive, feeling it's been blown out of proportion by structural engineers who stand to gain masses of work by the crisis. I tend to agree.
    He is exactly right, people keep using the term "crumbling" when talking about Schools. How many school buildings have collapsed, how many injuries have occured?
    Er… how many injuries is an acceptable number to have before doing anything?
  • Options
    HeathenerHeathener Posts: 5,431
    edited September 2023
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Heathener said:

    The political elite has given up on Britain
    Labour and the Tories have joined forces to condemn Britain to national failure. Their views are virtually indistinguishable

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/2023/09/06/labour-and-tories-have-united-form-government-of-failure/ (£££)

    It is not just the Corbynistas then.

    Without reading it let me guess the gist: we just need to believe in ourselves more so that we can capitalise on the benefits of Brexit?
    I used to read the Telegraph but I've given up. Not so much its politics per se but the reactionary nature of it now. Take today's front page. 5 of the 6 pieces on the front are reactionary anti-woke. There's even one having a dig about climate change. It's not that there aren't news stories embedded within. It's that they are dressed up in increasingly embittered language by old people raging against the dying of the light.
    A neat summation of the current government. Notable in the Rees-Mogg spat the other day was that he criticised the lack of things being done by the government. Parliament sits with short days because there is nothing being done by the government.

    The public are clear that the country is falling apart all around them. Yet the government not only does nothing, it seems to be it absolute denial that is happening. Note the RAAC scandal - Sunak insists that he increased funding as he cut it, that a lack of complaints by Starmer means there is no problem, and anyway most students won't be eaten by the shark therefore there is no shark.
    I asked my Dad, who is a buildings surveyor working for a local authority, about the concrete. He was quite dismissive, feeling it's been blown out of proportion by structural engineers who stand to gain masses of work by the crisis. I tend to agree.
    Hospital corridor in West Sussex Hospital.


    What's your point?
    The roof is being held up by props following an assessment by the Hospital estates staff.

    They are not the contractors.
    That might be her hospital. Edit: oh it isn't. That's W. Sussex. Hers is King's Lynn. The country is crumbling.

    One of the symptoms of a party that is losing it is when they deny there's even a problem ... as you can see from the last vestiges of pb tory support below (the usual suspects). Sunak has been accused of this a lot lately. He seems to think that telling everyone there isn't a problem, when there is, will bring sunny uplands.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 45,038
    And in another healthcare story this morning, the DM is complaining about the closure to new patients of the Tavistock gender unit, and that the patients waiting will be seen in adult services when they are 18. Somehow this is seen as "fast tracking".

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12489463/Fears-NHS-fast-tracking-teens-waiting-list-treatment.html
  • Options
    Foxy said:

    What's the odds that the 1% of the population that thinks Truss did very well all post here?



    Presumably the Lab voters saying "very well" meant very well at trashing the Tory Party.

    Many people's abiding memory of Liz Truss as prime minister will be her touring the country with the new king, which went on for two or three weeks.
  • Options

    Heathener said:

    The political elite has given up on Britain
    Labour and the Tories have joined forces to condemn Britain to national failure. Their views are virtually indistinguishable

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/2023/09/06/labour-and-tories-have-united-form-government-of-failure/ (£££)

    It is not just the Corbynistas then.

    Without reading it let me guess the gist: we just need to believe in ourselves more so that we can capitalise on the benefits of Brexit?
    I used to read the Telegraph but I've given up. Not so much its politics per se but the reactionary nature of it now. Take today's front page. 5 of the 6 pieces on the front are reactionary anti-woke. There's even one having a dig about climate change. It's not that there aren't news stories embedded within. It's that they are dressed up in increasingly embittered language by old people raging against the dying of the light.
    A neat summation of the current government. Notable in the Rees-Mogg spat the other day was that he criticised the lack of things being done by the government. Parliament sits with short days because there is nothing being done by the government.

    The public are clear that the country is falling apart all around them. Yet the government not only does nothing, it seems to be it absolute denial that is happening. Note the RAAC scandal - Sunak insists that he increased funding as he cut it, that a lack of complaints by Starmer means there is no problem, and anyway most students won't be eaten by the shark therefore there is no shark.
    I asked my Dad, who is a buildings surveyor working for a local authority, about the concrete. He was quite dismissive, feeling it's been blown out of proportion by structural engineers who stand to gain masses of work by the crisis. I tend to agree.
    He is exactly right, people keep using the term "crumbling" when talking about Schools. How many school buildings have collapsed, how many injuries have occured?
    Er… how many injuries is an acceptable number to have before doing anything?
    You have to balance risk and cost (not just financial but also the disruption to education, etc)
  • Options
    148grss148grss Posts: 3,867

    Heathener said:

    The political elite has given up on Britain
    Labour and the Tories have joined forces to condemn Britain to national failure. Their views are virtually indistinguishable

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/2023/09/06/labour-and-tories-have-united-form-government-of-failure/ (£££)

    It is not just the Corbynistas then.

    Without reading it let me guess the gist: we just need to believe in ourselves more so that we can capitalise on the benefits of Brexit?
    I used to read the Telegraph but I've given up. Not so much its politics per se but the reactionary nature of it now. Take today's front page. 5 of the 6 pieces on the front are reactionary anti-woke. There's even one having a dig about climate change. It's not that there aren't news stories embedded within. It's that they are dressed up in increasingly embittered language by old people raging against the dying of the light.
    A neat summation of the current government. Notable in the Rees-Mogg spat the other day was that he criticised the lack of things being done by the government. Parliament sits with short days because there is nothing being done by the government.

    The public are clear that the country is falling apart all around them. Yet the government not only does nothing, it seems to be it absolute denial that is happening. Note the RAAC scandal - Sunak insists that he increased funding as he cut it, that a lack of complaints by Starmer means there is no problem, and anyway most students won't be eaten by the shark therefore there is no shark.
    I asked my Dad, who is a buildings surveyor working for a local authority, about the concrete. He was quite dismissive, feeling it's been blown out of proportion by structural engineers who stand to gain masses of work by the crisis. I tend to agree.
    He is exactly right, people keep using the term "crumbling" when talking about Schools. How many school buildings have collapsed, how many injuries have occured?
    Er… how many injuries is an acceptable number to have before doing anything?
    If one kid got hit by falling concrete and severely hurt / killed a kid and people knew the government were aware it was a risk - the press would have a field day. Of course you have to assess risk, but it must be said that politically allowing children to be put at risk is not a great look...
  • Options
    HeathenerHeathener Posts: 5,431

    Heathener said:

    IanB2 said:

    Heathener said:

    The political elite has given up on Britain
    Labour and the Tories have joined forces to condemn Britain to national failure. Their views are virtually indistinguishable

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/2023/09/06/labour-and-tories-have-united-form-government-of-failure/ (£££)

    It is not just the Corbynistas then.

    Without reading it let me guess the gist: we just need to believe in ourselves more so that we can capitalise on the benefits of Brexit?
    I used to read the Telegraph but I've given up. Not so much its politics per se but the reactionary nature of it now. Take today's front page. 5 of the 6 pieces on the front are reactionary anti-woke. There's even one having a dig about climate change. It's not that there aren't news stories embedded within. It's that they are dressed up in increasingly embittered language by old people raging against the dying of the light.
    I'm shocked that you ever read it. It was always only for reactionary granddads, and that was when it at least tried to be a serious newspaper.

    A very big part of its circulation now is freebies to hotels and the like, and cheapo subscription deals pitched at the elderly.
    My grandma - a working class Tory made good - always read the Telegraph. But she was no mindless reactionary and voted Remain. I wonder what she'd make of the paper now.
    My Surrey tory friend, with whom I'm staying this week, still takes the Saturday Telegraph but I don't think she's exactly enamoured of the current state of things. 90% of what she says politically seems to be a vent against the current governing Conservatives. And she thinks Sunak is awful, but then she loved Boris and still does.


    I have a socialist friend in Yorkshire who used to read the Telegraph avidly for the journalism but those days have passed.
    I have an anarchist friend in Sofia and she swears by the Guardian.
    I don't usually respond to pointless or silly remarks, especially when they aren't even amusing, but I really DO have a socialist friend in Yorkshire who has been an avid reader of the Telegraph.

    Would you like his name and facebook profile so you can chat to him? PM if you do.
  • Options
    StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 7,162
    edited September 2023

    Foxy said:

    What's the odds that the 1% of the population that thinks Truss did very well all post here?



    Presumably the Lab voters saying "very well" meant very well at trashing the Tory Party.

    Many people's abiding memory of Liz Truss as prime minister will be her touring the country with the new king, which went on for two or three weeks.
    Poor b*stard

    (Although, on a literal reading, neither of those words is true it still sums up his situation pretty well. The beauty and complexity of the English language is a marvel to behold!)
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,919
    A

    Heathener said:

    The political elite has given up on Britain
    Labour and the Tories have joined forces to condemn Britain to national failure. Their views are virtually indistinguishable

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/2023/09/06/labour-and-tories-have-united-form-government-of-failure/ (£££)

    It is not just the Corbynistas then.

    Without reading it let me guess the gist: we just need to believe in ourselves more so that we can capitalise on the benefits of Brexit?
    I used to read the Telegraph but I've given up. Not so much its politics per se but the reactionary nature of it now. Take today's front page. 5 of the 6 pieces on the front are reactionary anti-woke. There's even one having a dig about climate change. It's not that there aren't news stories embedded within. It's that they are dressed up in increasingly embittered language by old people raging against the dying of the light.
    A neat summation of the current government. Notable in the Rees-Mogg spat the other day was that he criticised the lack of things being done by the government. Parliament sits with short days because there is nothing being done by the government.

    The public are clear that the country is falling apart all around them. Yet the government not only does nothing, it seems to be it absolute denial that is happening. Note the RAAC scandal - Sunak insists that he increased funding as he cut it, that a lack of complaints by Starmer means there is no problem, and anyway most students won't be eaten by the shark therefore there is no shark.
    I asked my Dad, who is a buildings surveyor working for a local authority, about the concrete. He was quite dismissive, feeling it's been blown out of proportion by
    structural engineers who stand to gain masses of work by the crisis. I tend to agree.
    It’s more the stupid precautionary principle that has infected so much of our decision making in the public sphere.

    The “right” answer is to survey all the school , mitigate, secure and fix. Not to close schools. But our politicians, driven by social media, are liable to panic. There is no upside for them doing the right thing and if even one kid gets hurt their career is over. So they overreact.
    Until you know the risk, the sane thing is closure.

    The risk escalated when a surveyed* and passed structured collapsed. This meant the existing risk model went to shit.

    Until that is restored, you are ignoring the holes in the cheese lining up.

    *this idea of surveying and somehow signing off a potentially failing material sounds like nonsense to me. From descriptions of the failure modes, predicting what will happen doesn’t sound plausible.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 45,038

    Heathener said:

    The political elite has given up on Britain
    Labour and the Tories have joined forces to condemn Britain to national failure. Their views are virtually indistinguishable

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/2023/09/06/labour-and-tories-have-united-form-government-of-failure/ (£££)

    It is not just the Corbynistas then.

    Without reading it let me guess the gist: we just need to believe in ourselves more so that we can capitalise on the benefits of Brexit?
    I used to read the Telegraph but I've given up. Not so much its politics per se but the reactionary nature of it now. Take today's front page. 5 of the 6 pieces on the front are reactionary anti-woke. There's even one having a dig about climate change. It's not that there aren't news stories embedded within. It's that they are dressed up in increasingly embittered language by old people raging against the dying of the light.
    A neat summation of the current government. Notable in the Rees-Mogg spat the other day was that he criticised the lack of things being done by the government. Parliament sits with short days because there is nothing being done by the government.

    The public are clear that the country is falling apart all around them. Yet the government not only does nothing, it seems to be it absolute denial that is happening. Note the RAAC scandal - Sunak insists that he increased funding as he cut it, that a lack of complaints by Starmer means there is no problem, and anyway most students won't be eaten by the shark therefore there is no shark.
    I asked my Dad, who is a buildings surveyor working for a local authority, about the concrete. He was quite dismissive, feeling it's been blown out of proportion by structural engineers who stand to gain masses of work by the crisis. I tend to agree.
    He is exactly right, people keep using the term "crumbling" when talking about Schools. How many school buildings have collapsed, how many injuries have occured?
    Er… how many injuries is an acceptable number to have before doing anything?
    You have to balance risk and cost (not just financial but also the disruption to education, etc)
    Perhaps not slash the schools rebuilding programme as CoE?

    Just a thought...
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,919
    A

    Heathener said:

    The political elite has given up on Britain
    Labour and the Tories have joined forces to condemn Britain to national failure. Their views are virtually indistinguishable

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/2023/09/06/labour-and-tories-have-united-form-government-of-failure/ (£££)

    It is not just the Corbynistas then.

    Without reading it let me guess the gist: we just need to believe in ourselves more so that we can capitalise on the benefits of Brexit?
    I used to read the Telegraph but I've given up. Not so much its politics per se but the reactionary nature of it now. Take today's front page. 5 of the 6 pieces on the front are reactionary anti-woke. There's even one having a dig about climate change. It's not that there aren't news stories embedded within. It's that they are dressed up in increasingly embittered language by old people raging against the dying of the light.
    A neat summation of the current government. Notable in the Rees-Mogg spat the other day was that he criticised the lack of things being done by the government. Parliament sits with short days because there is nothing being done by the government.

    The public are clear that the country is falling apart all around them. Yet the government not only does nothing, it seems to be it absolute denial that is happening. Note the RAAC scandal - Sunak insists that he increased funding as he cut it, that a lack of complaints by Starmer means there is no problem, and anyway most students won't be eaten by the shark therefore there is no shark.
    I asked my Dad, who is a buildings surveyor working for a local authority, about the concrete. He was quite dismissive, feeling it's been blown out of proportion by
    structural engineers who stand to gain masses of work by the crisis. I tend to agree.
    It’s more the stupid precautionary principle that has infected so much of our decision making in the public sphere.

    The “right” answer is to survey all the school , mitigate, secure and fix. Not to close schools. But our politicians, driven by social media, are liable to panic. There is no upside for them doing the right thing and if even one kid gets hurt their career is over. So they overreact.
    Until you know the risk, the sane thing is closure.

    The risk escalated when a surveyed* and passed structured collapsed. This meant the existing risk model went to shit.

    Until that is restored, you are ignoring the holes in the cheese lining up.

    *this idea of surveying and somehow signing off a potentially failing material sounds like nonsense to me. From descriptions of the failure modes,
    Foxy said:

    And in another healthcare story this morning, the DM is complaining about the closure to new patients of the Tavistock gender unit, and that the patients waiting will be seen in adult services when they are 18. Somehow this is seen as "fast tracking".

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12489463/Fears-NHS-fast-tracking-teens-waiting-list-treatment.html

    Well, to be fair, it probably *is* a reduction in the time they would have to wait.
  • Options
    148grss148grss Posts: 3,867

    https://www.theguardian.com/money/2023/sep/07/britons-view-work-less-important-other-nationalities-study

    Britons are less likely to view work as important than people in any other country surveyed. I'm kind of torn on whether this is a good thing or not, but it's certainly an interesting development.

    I mean, is this not just an acknowledgement of stagnating wage growth alongside a newer generation who value social interaction over alienation? The British economy is a house of cards built on The City, most other people either have crappy service jobs, crappy office jobs or crappy labour jobs. Even people who do vocational roles are recognising they still need to eat and not burn out all the time. If more and more jobs are "bullshit jobs", as Graeber put it, of course more people will recognise that.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,919
    A
    148grss said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/money/2023/sep/07/britons-view-work-less-important-other-nationalities-study

    Britons are less likely to view work as important than people in any other country surveyed. I'm kind of torn on whether this is a good thing or not, but it's certainly an interesting development.

    I mean, is this not just an acknowledgement of stagnating wage growth alongside a newer generation who value social interaction over alienation? The British economy is a house of cards built on The City, most other people either have crappy service jobs, crappy office jobs or crappy labour jobs. Even people who do vocational roles are recognising they still need to eat and not burn out all the time. If more and more jobs are "bullshit jobs", as Graeber put it, of course more people will recognise that.
    What makes a job crappy? Serious question - let’s try and define it.
  • Options

    A

    Heathener said:

    The political elite has given up on Britain
    Labour and the Tories have joined forces to condemn Britain to national failure. Their views are virtually indistinguishable

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/2023/09/06/labour-and-tories-have-united-form-government-of-failure/ (£££)

    It is not just the Corbynistas then.

    Without reading it let me guess the gist: we just need to believe in ourselves more so that we can capitalise on the benefits of Brexit?
    I used to read the Telegraph but I've given up. Not so much its politics per se but the reactionary nature of it now. Take today's front page. 5 of the 6 pieces on the front are reactionary anti-woke. There's even one having a dig about climate change. It's not that there aren't news stories embedded within. It's that they are dressed up in increasingly embittered language by old people raging against the dying of the light.
    A neat summation of the current government. Notable in the Rees-Mogg spat the other day was that he criticised the lack of things being done by the government. Parliament sits with short days because there is nothing being done by the government.

    The public are clear that the country is falling apart all around them. Yet the government not only does nothing, it seems to be it absolute denial that is happening. Note the RAAC scandal - Sunak insists that he increased funding as he cut it, that a lack of complaints by Starmer means there is no problem, and anyway most students won't be eaten by the shark therefore there is no shark.
    I asked my Dad, who is a buildings surveyor working for a local authority, about the concrete. He was quite dismissive, feeling it's been blown out of proportion by
    structural engineers who stand to gain masses of work by the crisis. I tend to agree.
    It’s more the stupid precautionary principle that has infected so much of our decision making in the public sphere.

    The “right” answer is to survey all the school , mitigate, secure and fix. Not to close schools. But our politicians, driven by social media, are liable to panic. There is no upside for them doing the right thing and if even one kid gets hurt their career is over. So they overreact.
    Until you know the risk, the sane thing is closure.

    The risk escalated when a surveyed* and passed structured collapsed. This meant the existing risk model went to shit.

    Until that is restored, you are ignoring the holes in the cheese lining up.

    *this idea of surveying and somehow signing off a potentially failing material sounds like nonsense to me. From descriptions of the failure modes, predicting what will happen doesn’t sound plausible.
    Besides, the survey etc take time. Hopefully, not long, but they're not instantaneous.

    Of course, the thing that might have helped would have been using the summer holidays to do these checks, rather than waiting until the very end of August.

    It's a repeat of the thing this government always does, maybe that Britain always does. Ignore a problem, as if it can be made to go away by force of will. Then panic and whinge when that doesn't work.
  • Options
    HeathenerHeathener Posts: 5,431

    Heathener said:

    The political elite has given up on Britain
    Labour and the Tories have joined forces to condemn Britain to national failure. Their views are virtually indistinguishable

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/2023/09/06/labour-and-tories-have-united-form-government-of-failure/ (£££)

    It is not just the Corbynistas then.

    Without reading it let me guess the gist: we just need to believe in ourselves more so that we can capitalise on the benefits of Brexit?
    I used to read the Telegraph but I've given up. Not so much its politics per se but the reactionary nature of it now. Take today's front page. 5 of the 6 pieces on the front are reactionary anti-woke. There's even one having a dig about climate change. It's not that there aren't news stories embedded within. It's that they are dressed up in increasingly embittered language by old people raging against the dying of the light.
    A neat summation of the current government. Notable in the Rees-Mogg spat the other day was that he criticised the lack of things being done by the government. Parliament sits with short days because there is nothing being done by the government.

    The public are clear that the country is falling apart all around them. Yet the government not only does nothing, it seems to be it absolute denial that is happening. Note the RAAC scandal - Sunak insists that he increased funding as he cut it, that a lack of complaints by Starmer means there is no problem, and anyway most students won't be eaten by the shark therefore there is no shark.
    I asked my Dad, who is a buildings surveyor working for a local authority, about the concrete. He was quite dismissive, feeling it's been blown out of proportion by structural engineers who stand to gain masses of work by the crisis. I tend to agree.
    He is exactly right, people keep using the term "crumbling" when talking about Schools. How many school buildings have collapsed, how many injuries have occured?
    Er… how many injuries is an acceptable number to have before doing anything?
    You have to balance risk and cost (not just financial but also the disruption to education, etc)
    Yeah but it's the same kind of solely capitalist-driven argument which led to the Zeebrugge ferry disaster in which 193 people died or, indeed, Aberfan in which 116 school children were crushed / suffocated to death whilst at school along with 28 adults.

    https://www.southwalesargus.co.uk/news/23066976.remembering-aberfan-disaster-1966/

  • Options
    148grss148grss Posts: 3,867

    Heathener said:

    The political elite has given up on Britain
    Labour and the Tories have joined forces to condemn Britain to national failure. Their views are virtually indistinguishable

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/2023/09/06/labour-and-tories-have-united-form-government-of-failure/ (£££)

    It is not just the Corbynistas then.

    Without reading it let me guess the gist: we just need to believe in ourselves more so that we can capitalise on the benefits of Brexit?
    I used to read the Telegraph but I've given up. Not so much its politics per se but the reactionary nature of it now. Take today's front page. 5 of the 6 pieces on the front are reactionary anti-woke. There's even one having a dig about climate change. It's not that there aren't news stories embedded within. It's that they are dressed up in increasingly embittered language by old people raging against the dying of the light.
    A neat summation of the current government. Notable in the Rees-Mogg spat the other day was that he criticised the lack of things being done by the government. Parliament sits with short days because there is nothing being done by the government.

    The public are clear that the country is falling apart all around them. Yet the government not only does nothing, it seems to be it absolute denial that is happening. Note the RAAC scandal - Sunak insists that he increased funding as he cut it, that a lack of complaints by Starmer means there is no problem, and anyway most students won't be eaten by the shark therefore there is no shark.
    I asked my Dad, who is a buildings surveyor working for a local authority, about the concrete. He was quite dismissive, feeling it's been blown out of proportion by
    structural engineers who stand to gain masses of work by the crisis. I tend to agree.
    It’s more the stupid precautionary principle that has infected so much of our decision making in the public sphere.

    The “right” answer is to survey all the school , mitigate, secure and fix. Not to close schools. But our politicians, driven by social media, are liable to panic. There is no upside for them doing the right thing and if even one kid gets hurt their career is over. So they overreact.
    "if even one kid gets hurt their career is over"

    I don't know if you have kids, but if that one kid was yours would you go "well, the balance of probabilities was my kid wouldn't be the one to get hurt / die" or would you go "the government knew this was going to happen eventually, why didn't they sort it out before it got to this point?". The problem is that the government dragged their feet and so that means the risk is higher than it was, and so have to be seen to do something now or kids will start getting hurt and people can point to No 10 as the responsible party. If they had done this 4-5 years ago (or even potentially used lockdown as a time to do this, although that would have been iffy from a health and safety pov, and the supply lines being buggered meant building materials were very expensive) we wouldn't be in this mess.
  • Options
    TimSTimS Posts: 10,034
    I think the short term transactional nature of British jobs makes attitudes to work equally transactional. People don’t necessarily expect a career. It’s just something to do to pay for life.

    I don’t think this is necessarily a recent thing. I’d guess Brits had this attitude to work since the 1980s.
  • Options
    FarooqFarooq Posts: 10,837
    FF43 said:

    On topic - is it correct that Labour's support in Scotland is a bit more efficient, in terms of geographical spread, than the SNP's? If so, a poll like this ought to give Labour the most seats in Scotland, no? The SNP might take some seats off the Tories, but Labour should take a lot of central belt seats back. Interesting times.

    The SNP vote is very evenly spread across the constituencies. As its vote share drops it goes from being first everywhere to second everywhere under FPTP. The reverse of 2015. It's a bit complex where Labour and SNP total vote is the same as Labour vote distribution is a bit lumpier
    The question remains where is the SNP losing votes? Is it uniform or is it concentrated?

    It's very easy to see Labour winning many seats from the SNP, but also not hard to see SNP winning seats like Caithness, or Moray.
    But that all depends on the assumption that the SNP's vote is declining in the central belt and holding up in the north. For all I know it could be the other way around, or across the board. The important point to remember is that Scotland itself is quite "lumpy" and the headline VI could mask a few different scenarios.
  • Options

    A

    148grss said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/money/2023/sep/07/britons-view-work-less-important-other-nationalities-study

    Britons are less likely to view work as important than people in any other country surveyed. I'm kind of torn on whether this is a good thing or not, but it's certainly an interesting development.

    I mean, is this not just an acknowledgement of stagnating wage growth alongside a newer generation who value social interaction over alienation? The British economy is a house of cards built on The City, most other people either have crappy service jobs, crappy office jobs or crappy labour jobs. Even people who do vocational roles are recognising they still need to eat and not burn out all the time. If more and more jobs are "bullshit jobs", as Graeber put it, of course more people will recognise that.
    What makes a job crappy? Serious question - let’s try and define it.
    Different thinks for different people. But I would start with lack of agency and no sense of fulfilment

    Even mundane physical jobs can be rewarding if there is a sense of vocation (eg care home staff)
  • Options
    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 33,303

    What makes a job crappy? Serious question - let’s try and define it.

    That's a good question.

    I think the default definition would be long hours, hard work, low pay, but I had a job like that for years and I loved it.

    My least favourite job was in an office, well paid, limited responsibility.

    I think the best definition a crappy job is probably one that "does not reward" the staff, whether that reward is financial, intellectual, spiritual or something else.
  • Options
    bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 8,071

    Heathener said:

    The political elite has given up on Britain
    Labour and the Tories have joined forces to condemn Britain to national failure. Their views are virtually indistinguishable

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/2023/09/06/labour-and-tories-have-united-form-government-of-failure/ (£££)

    It is not just the Corbynistas then.

    Without reading it let me guess the gist: we just need to believe in ourselves more so that we can capitalise on the benefits of Brexit?
    I used to read the Telegraph but I've given up. Not so much its politics per se but the reactionary nature of it now. Take today's front page. 5 of the 6 pieces on the front are reactionary anti-woke. There's even one having a dig about climate change. It's not that there aren't news stories embedded within. It's that they are dressed up in increasingly embittered language by old people raging against the dying of the light.
    A neat summation of the current government. Notable in the Rees-Mogg spat the other day was that he criticised the lack of things being done by the government. Parliament sits with short days because there is nothing being done by the government.

    The public are clear that the country is falling apart all around them. Yet the government not only does nothing, it seems to be it absolute denial that is happening. Note the RAAC scandal - Sunak insists that he increased funding as he cut it, that a lack of complaints by Starmer means there is no problem, and anyway most students won't be eaten by the shark therefore there is no shark.
    I asked my Dad, who is a buildings surveyor working for a local authority, about the concrete. He was quite dismissive, feeling it's been blown out of proportion by structural engineers who stand to gain masses of work by the crisis. I tend to agree.
    He is exactly right, people keep using the term "crumbling" when talking about Schools. How many school buildings have collapsed, how many injuries have occured?
    Er… how many injuries is an acceptable number to have before doing anything?
    You have to balance risk and cost (not just financial but also the disruption to education, etc)
    So, how many injuries is an acceptable number to have before doing anything?
  • Options
    TimSTimS Posts: 10,034

    A

    148grss said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/money/2023/sep/07/britons-view-work-less-important-other-nationalities-study

    Britons are less likely to view work as important than people in any other country surveyed. I'm kind of torn on whether this is a good thing or not, but it's certainly an interesting development.

    I mean, is this not just an acknowledgement of stagnating wage growth alongside a newer generation who value social interaction over alienation? The British economy is a house of cards built on The City, most other people either have crappy service jobs, crappy office jobs or crappy labour jobs. Even people who do vocational roles are recognising they still need to eat and not burn out all the time. If more and more jobs are "bullshit jobs", as Graeber put it, of course more people will recognise that.
    What makes a job crappy? Serious question - let’s try and define it.
    I think it’s a simple 3 x 3 matrix.

    - is it well paid or poorly paid
    - is it an interesting or fulfilling job to do
    - does it come with excessive levels of pressure or stress

    So the worst jobs are pointless and unfulfilling, highly stressful and poorly paid. The best are high paid, fascinating and with manageable levels of stress. David Attenborough’s job for example, or Michael Palin.
  • Options
    FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 3,965
    Foxy said:

    Meanwhile in classic "Red Wall" territory:

    "Trust whose rebuild was inexplicably dropped from '40 new hospitals' faces ‘enforced closure’ risk due to estate problems

    Risks at Doncaster 'potentially greater' than RAAC, & require an 'equally urgent response', says trust

    from @HMAnderson39"

    https://twitter.com/LawrenceDunhill/status/1699395255198699832?t=6uRzm9gS6Yt-6VBpErFj6g&s=19

    "Testing contingency plans". I'd hope that was normal.

    There are many problems with the current site, and a new one would be welcome, but I'm unconvinced by the replacement site they were looking at.

    Meanwhile, it would be nice if the nursing staff actually looked after patients and didn't dismiss what families tell them...
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 45,038
    TimS said:

    I think the short term transactional nature of British jobs makes attitudes to work equally transactional. People don’t necessarily expect a career. It’s just something to do to pay for life.

    I don’t think this is necessarily a recent thing. I’d guess Brits had this attitude to work since the 1980s.

    That's not what the survey says, there are major changes in British attitudes to work since the survey started.
  • Options
    FarooqFarooq Posts: 10,837

    A

    148grss said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/money/2023/sep/07/britons-view-work-less-important-other-nationalities-study

    Britons are less likely to view work as important than people in any other country surveyed. I'm kind of torn on whether this is a good thing or not, but it's certainly an interesting development.

    I mean, is this not just an acknowledgement of stagnating wage growth alongside a newer generation who value social interaction over alienation? The British economy is a house of cards built on The City, most other people either have crappy service jobs, crappy office jobs or crappy labour jobs. Even people who do vocational roles are recognising they still need to eat and not burn out all the time. If more and more jobs are "bullshit jobs", as Graeber put it, of course more people will recognise that.
    What makes a job crappy? Serious question - let’s try and define it.
    Little autonomy, poor wages, abusive coworkers/boss/customers, physically or mentally demanding or mentally understimulating, hazardous, unpredictable, thankless.
  • Options
    HeathenerHeathener Posts: 5,431
    I'm heading out but we possibly could reach a sensible moderate consensus here?

    I'm all for schools generally staying open. Lockdowns were dreadful for them. My son suffered through it. They were awful for the children. It wasn't the right decision because covid didn't really put children's lives at risk.

    However, if there's a danger of roof collapse - and there clearly is - you can't sit children underneath them until they are made safe. It would be madness.
  • Options
    DougSealDougSeal Posts: 11,460

    Heathener said:

    The political elite has given up on Britain
    Labour and the Tories have joined forces to condemn Britain to national failure. Their views are virtually indistinguishable

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/2023/09/06/labour-and-tories-have-united-form-government-of-failure/ (£££)

    It is not just the Corbynistas then.

    Without reading it let me guess the gist: we just need to believe in ourselves more so that we can capitalise on the benefits of Brexit?
    I used to read the Telegraph but I've given up. Not so much its politics per se but the reactionary nature of it now. Take today's front page. 5 of the 6 pieces on the front are reactionary anti-woke. There's even one having a dig about climate change. It's not that there aren't news stories embedded within. It's that they are dressed up in increasingly embittered language by old people raging against the dying of the light.
    A neat summation of the current government. Notable in the Rees-Mogg spat the other day was that he criticised the lack of things being done by the government. Parliament sits with short days because there is nothing being done by the government.

    The public are clear that the country is falling apart all around them. Yet the government not only does nothing, it seems to be it absolute denial that is happening. Note the RAAC scandal - Sunak insists that he increased funding as he cut it, that a lack of complaints by Starmer means there is no problem, and anyway most students won't be eaten by the shark therefore there is no shark.
    I asked my Dad, who is a buildings surveyor working for a local authority, about the concrete. He was quite dismissive, feeling it's been blown out of proportion by structural engineers who stand to gain masses of work by the crisis. I tend to agree.
    You agree with him because you are also a structural engineer, a surveyor or have other relevant experience, or because your Dad’s opinion fits your prior bias?
  • Options

    Heathener said:

    The political elite has given up on Britain
    Labour and the Tories have joined forces to condemn Britain to national failure. Their views are virtually indistinguishable

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/2023/09/06/labour-and-tories-have-united-form-government-of-failure/ (£££)

    It is not just the Corbynistas then.

    Without reading it let me guess the gist: we just need to believe in ourselves more so that we can capitalise on the benefits of Brexit?
    I used to read the Telegraph but I've given up. Not so much its politics per se but the reactionary nature of it now. Take today's front page. 5 of the 6 pieces on the front are reactionary anti-woke. There's even one having a dig about climate change. It's not that there aren't news stories embedded within. It's that they are dressed up in increasingly embittered language by old people raging against the dying of the light.
    A neat summation of the current government. Notable in the Rees-Mogg spat the other day was that he criticised the lack of things being done by the government. Parliament sits with short days because there is nothing being done by the government.

    The public are clear that the country is falling apart all around them. Yet the government not only does nothing, it seems to be it absolute denial that is happening. Note the RAAC scandal - Sunak insists that he increased funding as he cut it, that a lack of complaints by Starmer means there is no problem, and anyway most students won't be eaten by the shark therefore there is no shark.
    I asked my Dad, who is a buildings surveyor working for a local authority, about the concrete. He was quite dismissive, feeling it's been blown out of proportion by structural engineers who stand to gain masses of work by the crisis. I tend to agree.
    Perhaps. But then again we have the photographs of rooms being propped up. It may not be a lot of examples, but it neatly summarises the crimbling edifice that is Tory Britain...
  • Options
    pm215pm215 Posts: 947
    TimS said:


    What makes a job crappy? Serious question - let’s try and define it.

    I think it’s a simple 3 x 3 matrix.

    - is it well paid or poorly paid
    - is it an interesting or fulfilling job to do
    - does it come with excessive levels of pressure or stress

    So the worst jobs are pointless and unfulfilling, highly stressful and poorly paid. The best are high paid, fascinating and with manageable levels of stress. David Attenborough’s job for example, or Michael Palin.
    I think that misses out a significant factor -- what are the other people, and especially your immediate boss, like? An otherwise mundane job with a group of friendly people who all get along can be a lot less awful than a job that's theoretically interesting but full of office politics and where the boss is a terrible micromanager (or worse).
  • Options
    148grss148grss Posts: 3,867

    A

    148grss said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/money/2023/sep/07/britons-view-work-less-important-other-nationalities-study

    Britons are less likely to view work as important than people in any other country surveyed. I'm kind of torn on whether this is a good thing or not, but it's certainly an interesting development.

    I mean, is this not just an acknowledgement of stagnating wage growth alongside a newer generation who value social interaction over alienation? The British economy is a house of cards built on The City, most other people either have crappy service jobs, crappy office jobs or crappy labour jobs. Even people who do vocational roles are recognising they still need to eat and not burn out all the time. If more and more jobs are "bullshit jobs", as Graeber put it, of course more people will recognise that.
    What makes a job crappy? Serious question - let’s try and define it.
    I would say a number of things - we can go with Marxist views of alienation, where the outcome of your work is not really noticeable to the labourer and therefore they don't feel any satisfaction from the labour effort expended. So I do a job at a uni where I help change strategy and support students - the first part of that feels like walking through molasses because even when change happens, I can't see the product of my labour, so I feel like my work is pointless. The second is much easier to feel good about - I talk to students, I help them with their problems, and then I get the warm fuzzy feeling of a job well done.

    Graeber's position on "bullshit jobs" is similar, except he views these jobs as being pointless at the basis and instead they act as a pseudo keynsianism - people who write reports that just end up in a drawer and never read, that sort of thing. His view is this is almost like a self preservation act of capital - that if too many people with graduate educations were unemployed there would be too much unrest, so the PMC have to exist to give them work to do but most of that work is pointless, and people kinda realise that.

    Then you have the more bread and butter issues - if you're working longer hours for the same pay you got 10 years ago, is your job giving you the standard of living you expected / desire? If work is supposed to be how you fund life, if you don't have enough time / money to enjoy life - what's the point of work?

    That's all aside from issues with specific jobs - dealing with customers, an annoying manager / boss, all those other things. The above are what I view are the underlying dissatisfactions with work. And I don't think it should be surprising that the people of Britain are the most dissatisfied when we are one of the worst countries for work life balance, one of the earliest countries to outsource industrial work and become a service economy, and crushed unions relatively early leading to wage stagnation earlier than other countries.
  • Options
    Foxy said:

    Heathener said:

    The political elite has given up on Britain
    Labour and the Tories have joined forces to condemn Britain to national failure. Their views are virtually indistinguishable

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/2023/09/06/labour-and-tories-have-united-form-government-of-failure/ (£££)

    It is not just the Corbynistas then.

    Without reading it let me guess the gist: we just need to believe in ourselves more so that we can capitalise on the benefits of Brexit?
    I used to read the Telegraph but I've given up. Not so much its politics per se but the reactionary nature of it now. Take today's front page. 5 of the 6 pieces on the front are reactionary anti-woke. There's even one having a dig about climate change. It's not that there aren't news stories embedded within. It's that they are dressed up in increasingly embittered language by old people raging against the dying of the light.
    A neat summation of the current government. Notable in the Rees-Mogg spat the other day was that he criticised the lack of things being done by the government. Parliament sits with short days because there is nothing being done by the government.

    The public are clear that the country is falling apart all around them. Yet the government not only does nothing, it seems to be it absolute denial that is happening. Note the RAAC scandal - Sunak insists that he increased funding as he cut it, that a lack of complaints by Starmer means there is no problem, and anyway most students won't be eaten by the shark therefore there is no shark.
    I asked my Dad, who is a buildings surveyor working for a local authority, about the concrete. He was quite dismissive, feeling it's been blown out of proportion by structural engineers who stand to gain masses of work by the crisis. I tend to agree.
    He is exactly right, people keep using the term "crumbling" when talking about Schools. How many school buildings have collapsed, how many injuries have occured?
    Er… how many injuries is an acceptable number to have before doing anything?
    You have to balance risk and cost (not just financial but also the disruption to education, etc)
    Perhaps not slash the schools rebuilding programme as CoE?

    Just a thought...
    I thought the money was needed to pay the Hospital Consultants pay claim.
  • Options
    Foxy said:

    Heathener said:

    The political elite has given up on Britain
    Labour and the Tories have joined forces to condemn Britain to national failure. Their views are virtually indistinguishable

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/2023/09/06/labour-and-tories-have-united-form-government-of-failure/ (£££)

    It is not just the Corbynistas then.

    Without reading it let me guess the gist: we just need to believe in ourselves more so that we can capitalise on the benefits of Brexit?
    I used to read the Telegraph but I've given up. Not so much its politics per se but the reactionary nature of it now. Take today's front page. 5 of the 6 pieces on the front are reactionary anti-woke. There's even one having a dig about climate change. It's not that there aren't news stories embedded within. It's that they are dressed up in increasingly embittered language by old people raging against the dying of the light.
    A neat summation of the current government. Notable in the Rees-Mogg spat the other day was that he criticised the lack of things being done by the government. Parliament sits with short days because there is nothing being done by the government.

    The public are clear that the country is falling apart all around them. Yet the government not only does nothing, it seems to be it absolute denial that is happening. Note the RAAC scandal - Sunak insists that he increased funding as he cut it, that a lack of complaints by Starmer means there is no problem, and anyway most students won't be eaten by the shark therefore there is no shark.
    I asked my Dad, who is a buildings surveyor working for a local authority, about the concrete. He was quite dismissive, feeling it's been blown out of proportion by structural engineers who stand to gain masses of work by the crisis. I tend to agree.
    He is exactly right, people keep using the term "crumbling" when talking about Schools. How many school buildings have collapsed, how many injuries have occured?
    Er… how many injuries is an acceptable number to have before doing anything?
    You have to balance risk and cost (not just financial but also the disruption to education, etc)
    Perhaps not slash the schools rebuilding programme as CoE?

    Just a thought...
    That’s bad politically but wasn’t significant enough to touch the sides of a multi- generational problem
  • Options
    bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 8,071

    Heathener said:

    The political elite has given up on Britain
    Labour and the Tories have joined forces to condemn Britain to national failure. Their views are virtually indistinguishable

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/2023/09/06/labour-and-tories-have-united-form-government-of-failure/ (£££)

    It is not just the Corbynistas then.

    Without reading it let me guess the gist: we just need to believe in ourselves more so that we can capitalise on the benefits of Brexit?
    I used to read the Telegraph but I've given up. Not so much its politics per se but the reactionary nature of it now. Take today's front page. 5 of the 6 pieces on the front are reactionary anti-woke. There's even one having a dig about climate change. It's not that there aren't news stories embedded within. It's that they are dressed up in increasingly embittered language by old people raging against the dying of the light.
    A neat summation of the current government. Notable in the Rees-Mogg spat the other day was that he criticised the lack of things being done by the government. Parliament sits with short days because there is nothing being done by the government.

    The public are clear that the country is falling apart all around them. Yet the government not only does nothing, it seems to be it absolute denial that is happening. Note the RAAC scandal - Sunak insists that he increased funding as he cut it, that a lack of complaints by Starmer means there is no problem, and anyway most students won't be eaten by the shark therefore there is no shark.
    I asked my Dad, who is a buildings surveyor working for a local authority, about the concrete. He was quite dismissive, feeling it's been blown out of proportion by structural engineers who stand to gain masses of work by the crisis. I tend to agree.
    Perhaps. But then again we have the photographs of rooms being propped up. It may not be a lot of examples, but it neatly summarises the crimbling edifice that is Tory Britain...
    Worrying about ceilings collapsing on school kids is just woke nonsense. When I was at school, parts of the building would collapse on the other children all the time. We just pulled the bodies out from under the rubble and got on with things. It’s health and safety gone made!
  • Options
    Exciting news on Good Morning Scotland whilst driving in that the escaped prisoner could be trying to leave the UK. An All Ports Bulletin issued so expect delays at airports.

    It took an age to get to the carpark here at Aberdeen Airport. Not because the polis are looking for the escapee, because of the huge Offshore expo nearby. The extra security delays at the airport? Naah - the usual 'don't stop moving until you load stuff into the scanner trays.'
  • Options
    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,954
    edited September 2023
    The "concrete crisis" is just the sort of thing that happens when a government is on it's last legs.

    Everything about this government has the stench of decay and defeat about it.

    It's Lab 76-79. It's Con 95-97. It's Lab 2008-10.

    RIP.
  • Options

    A

    Heathener said:

    The political elite has given up on Britain
    Labour and the Tories have joined forces to condemn Britain to national failure. Their views are virtually indistinguishable

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/2023/09/06/labour-and-tories-have-united-form-government-of-failure/ (£££)

    It is not just the Corbynistas then.

    Without reading it let me guess the gist: we just need to believe in ourselves more so that we can capitalise on the benefits of Brexit?
    I used to read the Telegraph but I've given up. Not so much its politics per se but the reactionary nature of it now. Take today's front page. 5 of the 6 pieces on the front are reactionary anti-woke. There's even one having a dig about climate change. It's not that there aren't news stories embedded within. It's that they are dressed up in increasingly embittered language by old people raging against the dying of the light.
    A neat summation of the current government. Notable in the Rees-Mogg spat the other day was that he criticised the lack of things being done by the government. Parliament sits with short days because there is nothing being done by the government.

    The public are clear that the country is falling apart all around them. Yet the government not only does nothing, it seems to be it absolute denial that is happening. Note the RAAC scandal - Sunak insists that he increased funding as he cut it, that a lack of complaints by Starmer means there is no problem, and anyway most students won't be eaten by the shark therefore there is no shark.
    I asked my Dad, who is a buildings surveyor working for a local authority, about the concrete. He was quite dismissive, feeling it's been blown out of proportion by
    structural engineers who stand to gain masses of work by the crisis. I tend to agree.
    It’s more the stupid precautionary principle that has infected so much of our decision making in the public sphere.

    The “right” answer is to survey all the school , mitigate, secure and fix. Not to close schools. But our politicians, driven by social media, are liable to panic. There is no upside for them doing the right thing and if even one kid gets hurt their career is over. So they overreact.
    Until you know the risk, the sane thing is closure.

    The risk escalated when a surveyed* and passed structured collapsed. This meant the existing risk model went to shit.

    Until that is restored, you are ignoring the holes in the cheese lining up.

    *this idea of surveying and somehow signing off a potentially failing material sounds like nonsense to me. From descriptions of the failure modes, predicting what will happen doesn’t sound plausible.
    If the original surveys were done right they should have a good knowledge of the issue in each school.

    What has changed is (a) the awareness that there may be unexpected collapses and (b) the risk tolerance

    Wholesale closures don’t appear to be a proportional response
  • Options
    TimSTimS Posts: 10,034
    edited September 2023
    pm215 said:

    TimS said:


    What makes a job crappy? Serious question - let’s try and define it.

    I think it’s a simple 3 x 3 matrix.

    - is it well paid or poorly paid
    - is it an interesting or fulfilling job to do
    - does it come with excessive levels of pressure or stress

    So the worst jobs are pointless and unfulfilling, highly stressful and poorly paid. The best are high paid, fascinating and with manageable levels of stress. David Attenborough’s job for example, or Michael Palin.
    I think that misses out a significant factor -- what are the other people, and especially your immediate boss, like? An otherwise mundane job with a group of friendly people who all get along can be a lot less awful than a job that's theoretically interesting but full of office politics and where the boss is a terrible micromanager (or worse).
    Yes, people v important, and support from bosses and peers. But does that allow us to generalise about what jobs are typically
    crappy? I’d say that affects how happy you are in a job, but not whether that job by definition is crappy.
  • Options
    DougSealDougSeal Posts: 11,460

    Foxy said:

    What's the odds that the 1% of the population that thinks Truss did very well all post here?



    Presumably the Lab voters saying "very well" meant very well at trashing the Tory Party.

    Many people's abiding memory of Liz Truss as prime minister will be her touring the country with the new king, which went on for two or three weeks.
    For me it was the BBC Local Radio round. Listening back to that on YouTube it’s like…how did this happen in a functioning democracy?

    And the Queen’s funeral. Truss will stand out to people watching that in the future like your sibling’s date to your wedding, who went out with them for 2 months but still got in all the family photos.
  • Options
    Heathener said:

    Heathener said:

    The political elite has given up on Britain
    Labour and the Tories have joined forces to condemn Britain to national failure. Their views are virtually indistinguishable

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/2023/09/06/labour-and-tories-have-united-form-government-of-failure/ (£££)

    It is not just the Corbynistas then.

    Without reading it let me guess the gist: we just need to believe in ourselves more so that we can capitalise on the benefits of Brexit?
    I used to read the Telegraph but I've given up. Not so much its politics per se but the reactionary nature of it now. Take today's front page. 5 of the 6 pieces on the front are reactionary anti-woke. There's even one having a dig about climate change. It's not that there aren't news stories embedded within. It's that they are dressed up in increasingly embittered language by old people raging against the dying of the light.
    A neat summation of the current government. Notable in the Rees-Mogg spat the other day was that he criticised the lack of things being done by the government. Parliament sits with short days because there is nothing being done by the government.

    The public are clear that the country is falling apart all around them. Yet the government not only does nothing, it seems to be it absolute denial that is happening. Note the RAAC scandal - Sunak insists that he increased funding as he cut it, that a lack of complaints by Starmer means there is no problem, and anyway most students won't be eaten by the shark therefore there is no shark.
    I asked my Dad, who is a buildings surveyor working for a local authority, about the concrete. He was quite dismissive, feeling it's been blown out of proportion by structural engineers who stand to gain masses of work by the crisis. I tend to agree.
    He is exactly right, people keep using the term "crumbling" when talking about Schools. How many school buildings have collapsed, how many injuries have occured?
    Er… how many injuries is an acceptable number to have before doing anything?
    You have to balance risk and cost (not just financial but also the disruption to education, etc)
    Yeah but it's the same kind of solely capitalist-driven argument which led to the Zeebrugge ferry disaster in which 193 people died or, indeed, Aberfan in which 116 school children were crushed / suffocated to death whilst at school along with 28 adults.

    https://www.southwalesargus.co.uk/news/23066976.remembering-aberfan-disaster-1966/

    It’s not capitalist driven

    The cost here is disrupted education for children. That needs to be factored in vs the risk of a localised collapse.
  • Options

    Heathener said:

    The political elite has given up on Britain
    Labour and the Tories have joined forces to condemn Britain to national failure. Their views are virtually indistinguishable

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/2023/09/06/labour-and-tories-have-united-form-government-of-failure/ (£££)

    It is not just the Corbynistas then.

    Without reading it let me guess the gist: we just need to believe in ourselves more so that we can capitalise on the benefits of Brexit?
    I used to read the Telegraph but I've given up. Not so much its politics per se but the reactionary nature of it now. Take today's front page. 5 of the 6 pieces on the front are reactionary anti-woke. There's even one having a dig about climate change. It's not that there aren't news stories embedded within. It's that they are dressed up in increasingly embittered language by old people raging against the dying of the light.
    A neat summation of the current government. Notable in the Rees-Mogg spat the other day was that he criticised the lack of things being done by the government. Parliament sits with short days because there is nothing being done by the government.

    The public are clear that the country is falling apart all around them. Yet the government not only does nothing, it seems to be it absolute denial that is happening. Note the RAAC scandal - Sunak insists that he increased funding as he cut it, that a lack of complaints by Starmer means there is no problem, and anyway most students won't be eaten by the shark therefore there is no shark.
    I asked my Dad, who is a buildings surveyor working for a local authority, about the concrete. He was quite dismissive, feeling it's been blown out of proportion by structural engineers who stand to gain masses of work by the crisis. I tend to agree.
    He is exactly right, people keep using the term "crumbling" when talking about Schools. How many school buildings have collapsed, how many injuries have occured?
    Er… how many injuries is an acceptable number to have before doing anything?
    But they are doing something. So non-zero is the amount of injuries that should occur before it's treated like they are occurring.

    The issue isn't that they are or are not acting on RAAC (they are, and before injuries).

    The issue is the utterly shambolic way they're doing so.

    This was an issue known about weeks ago, they could have made announcements weeks ago but instead it was shambolically mismanaged and done at the last possible minute.

    Which as a parent bears an eerie similarity to the completely shambolic "return to school for one day, ok now we are in immediate lockdown no school tomorrow" in January 2021.
  • Options
    Heathener said:

    Heathener said:

    The political elite has given up on Britain
    Labour and the Tories have joined forces to condemn Britain to national failure. Their views are virtually indistinguishable

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/2023/09/06/labour-and-tories-have-united-form-government-of-failure/ (£££)

    It is not just the Corbynistas then.

    Without reading it let me guess the gist: we just need to believe in ourselves more so that we can capitalise on the benefits of Brexit?
    I used to read the Telegraph but I've given up. Not so much its politics per se but the reactionary nature of it now. Take today's front page. 5 of the 6 pieces on the front are reactionary anti-woke. There's even one having a dig about climate change. It's not that there aren't news stories embedded within. It's that they are dressed up in increasingly embittered language by old people raging against the dying of the light.
    A neat summation of the current government. Notable in the Rees-Mogg spat the other day was that he criticised the lack of things being done by the government. Parliament sits with short days because there is nothing being done by the government.

    The public are clear that the country is falling apart all around them. Yet the government not only does nothing, it seems to be it absolute denial that is happening. Note the RAAC scandal - Sunak insists that he increased funding as he cut it, that a lack of complaints by Starmer means there is no problem, and anyway most students won't be eaten by the shark therefore there is no shark.
    I asked my Dad, who is a buildings surveyor working for a local authority, about the concrete. He was quite dismissive, feeling it's been blown out of proportion by structural engineers who stand to gain masses of work by the crisis. I tend to agree.
    He is exactly right, people keep using the term "crumbling" when talking about Schools. How many school buildings have collapsed, how many injuries have occured?
    Er… how many injuries is an acceptable number to have before doing anything?
    You have to balance risk and cost (not just financial but also the disruption to education, etc)
    Yeah but it's the same kind of solely capitalist-driven argument which led to the Zeebrugge ferry disaster in which 193 people died or, indeed, Aberfan in which 116 school children were crushed / suffocated to death whilst at school along with 28 adults.

    https://www.southwalesargus.co.uk/news/23066976.remembering-aberfan-disaster-1966/

    Aberfan happened under a nationalised industry and the failings that led to the disaster were due to ignorance and negligence, not the capitalist pursuit of profit. There were no great cost implications about siting the spoil heaps on the other side of the mountain - as had been done to the earlier spoil heaps during the privatised era. People just didn't think and really didn't care - until it was too late.
  • Options

    Foxy said:

    Heathener said:

    The political elite has given up on Britain
    Labour and the Tories have joined forces to condemn Britain to national failure. Their views are virtually indistinguishable

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/2023/09/06/labour-and-tories-have-united-form-government-of-failure/ (£££)

    It is not just the Corbynistas then.

    Without reading it let me guess the gist: we just need to believe in ourselves more so that we can capitalise on the benefits of Brexit?
    I used to read the Telegraph but I've given up. Not so much its politics per se but the reactionary nature of it now. Take today's front page. 5 of the 6 pieces on the front are reactionary anti-woke. There's even one having a dig about climate change. It's not that there aren't news stories embedded within. It's that they are dressed up in increasingly embittered language by old people raging against the dying of the light.
    A neat summation of the current government. Notable in the Rees-Mogg spat the other day was that he criticised the lack of things being done by the government. Parliament sits with short days because there is nothing being done by the government.

    The public are clear that the country is falling apart all around them. Yet the government not only does nothing, it seems to be it absolute denial that is happening. Note the RAAC scandal - Sunak insists that he increased funding as he cut it, that a lack of complaints by Starmer means there is no problem, and anyway most students won't be eaten by the shark therefore there is no shark.
    I asked my Dad, who is a buildings surveyor working for a local authority, about the concrete. He was quite dismissive, feeling it's been blown out of proportion by structural engineers who stand to gain masses of work by the crisis. I tend to agree.
    He is exactly right, people keep using the term "crumbling" when talking about Schools. How many school buildings have collapsed, how many injuries have occured?
    Er… how many injuries is an acceptable number to have before doing anything?
    You have to balance risk and cost (not just financial but also the disruption to education, etc)
    Perhaps not slash the schools rebuilding programme as CoE?

    Just a thought...
    That’s bad politically but wasn’t significant enough to touch the sides of a multi- generational problem
    Stage 1: We say nothing is going to happen.
    Stage 2: We say something may be about to happen, but we should do nothing about it.
    Stage 3: We say maybe we should do something about it, but there's nothing we can do.
    Stage 4: We say maybe there was something, but it's too late now.
  • Options
    StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 7,162
    edited September 2023
    148grss said:

    Heathener said:

    The political elite has given up on Britain
    Labour and the Tories have joined forces to condemn Britain to national failure. Their views are virtually indistinguishable

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/2023/09/06/labour-and-tories-have-united-form-government-of-failure/ (£££)

    It is not just the Corbynistas then.

    Without reading it let me guess the gist: we just need to believe in ourselves more so that we can capitalise on the benefits of Brexit?
    I used to read the Telegraph but I've given up. Not so much its politics per se but the reactionary nature of it now. Take today's front page. 5 of the 6 pieces on the front are reactionary anti-woke. There's even one having a dig about climate change. It's not that there aren't news stories embedded within. It's that they are dressed up in increasingly embittered language by old people raging against the dying of the light.
    A neat summation of the current government. Notable in the Rees-Mogg spat the other day was that he criticised the lack of things being done by the government. Parliament sits with short days because there is nothing being done by the government.

    The public are clear that the country is falling apart all around them. Yet the government not only does nothing, it seems to be it absolute denial that is happening. Note the RAAC scandal - Sunak insists that he increased funding as he cut it, that a lack of complaints by Starmer means there is no problem, and anyway most students won't be eaten by the shark therefore there is no shark.
    I asked my Dad, who is a buildings surveyor working for a local authority, about the concrete. He was quite dismissive, feeling it's been blown out of proportion by
    structural engineers who stand to gain masses of work by the crisis. I tend to agree.
    It’s more the stupid precautionary principle that has infected so much of our decision making in the public sphere.

    The “right” answer is to survey all the school , mitigate, secure and fix. Not to close schools. But our politicians, driven by social media, are liable to panic. There is no upside for them doing the right thing and if even one kid gets hurt their career is over. So they overreact.
    "if even one kid gets hurt their career is over"

    I don't know if you have kids, but if that one kid was yours would you go "well, the balance of probabilities was my kid wouldn't be the one to get hurt / die" or would you go "the government knew this was going to happen eventually, why didn't they sort it out before it got to this point?". The problem is that the government dragged their feet and so that means the risk is higher than it was, and so have to be seen to do something now or kids will start getting hurt and people can point to No 10 as the responsible party. If they had done this 4-5 years ago (or even potentially used lockdown as a time to do this, although that would have been iffy from a health and safety pov, and the supply lines being buggered meant building materials were very expensive) we wouldn't be in this mess.
    Of course I’d be angry if it was my kid. But that’s why we have politicians who are supposed to look at the macro picture not the micro detail.

    Closing 100 schools disrupts the education of 100k kids. Is that a price worth paying vs a small risk of a collapse potentially hurting a kid?

    On your second paragraph hindsight is a wonderful thing
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,951

    Foxy said:

    Heathener said:

    The political elite has given up on Britain
    Labour and the Tories have joined forces to condemn Britain to national failure. Their views are virtually indistinguishable

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/2023/09/06/labour-and-tories-have-united-form-government-of-failure/ (£££)

    It is not just the Corbynistas then.

    Without reading it let me guess the gist: we just need to believe in ourselves more so that we can capitalise on the benefits of Brexit?
    I used to read the Telegraph but I've given up. Not so much its politics per se but the reactionary nature of it now. Take today's front page. 5 of the 6 pieces on the front are reactionary anti-woke. There's even one having a dig about climate change. It's not that there aren't news stories embedded within. It's that they are dressed up in increasingly embittered language by old people raging against the dying of the light.
    A neat summation of the current government. Notable in the Rees-Mogg spat the other day was that he criticised the lack of things being done by the government. Parliament sits with short days because there is nothing being done by the government.

    The public are clear that the country is falling apart all around them. Yet the government not only does nothing, it seems to be it absolute denial that is happening. Note the RAAC scandal - Sunak insists that he increased funding as he cut it, that a lack of complaints by Starmer means there is no problem, and anyway most students won't be eaten by the shark therefore there is no shark.
    I asked my Dad, who is a buildings surveyor working for a local authority, about the concrete. He was quite dismissive, feeling it's been blown out of proportion by structural engineers who stand to gain masses of work by the crisis. I tend to agree.
    He is exactly right, people keep using the term "crumbling" when talking about Schools. How many school buildings have collapsed, how many injuries have occured?
    Er… how many injuries is an acceptable number to have before doing anything?
    You have to balance risk and cost (not just financial but also the disruption to education, etc)
    Perhaps not slash the schools rebuilding programme as CoE?

    Just a thought...
    I thought the money was needed to pay the Hospital Consultants pay claim.
    Might be an argument... if the claim had been paid.
  • Options

    Heathener said:

    The political elite has given up on Britain
    Labour and the Tories have joined forces to condemn Britain to national failure. Their views are virtually indistinguishable

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/2023/09/06/labour-and-tories-have-united-form-government-of-failure/ (£££)

    It is not just the Corbynistas then.

    Without reading it let me guess the gist: we just need to believe in ourselves more so that we can capitalise on the benefits of Brexit?
    I used to read the Telegraph but I've given up. Not so much its politics per se but the reactionary nature of it now. Take today's front page. 5 of the 6 pieces on the front are reactionary anti-woke. There's even one having a dig about climate change. It's not that there aren't news stories embedded within. It's that they are dressed up in increasingly embittered language by old people raging against the dying of the light.
    A neat summation of the current government. Notable in the Rees-Mogg spat the other day was that he criticised the lack of things being done by the government. Parliament sits with short days because there is nothing being done by the government.

    The public are clear that the country is falling apart all around them. Yet the government not only does nothing, it seems to be it absolute denial that is happening. Note the RAAC scandal - Sunak insists that he increased funding as he cut it, that a lack of complaints by Starmer means there is no problem, and anyway most students won't be eaten by the shark therefore there is no shark.
    I asked my Dad, who is a buildings surveyor working for a local authority, about the concrete. He was quite dismissive, feeling it's been blown out of proportion by structural engineers who stand to gain masses of work by the crisis. I tend to agree.
    He is exactly right, people keep using the term "crumbling" when talking about Schools. How many school buildings have collapsed, how many injuries have occured?
    Er… how many injuries is an acceptable number to have before doing anything?
    You have to balance risk and cost (not just financial but also the disruption to education, etc)
    So, how many injuries is an acceptable number to have before doing anything?
    Greater than zero.
  • Options

    Exciting news on Good Morning Scotland whilst driving in that the escaped prisoner could be trying to leave the UK. An All Ports Bulletin issued so expect delays at airports.

    It took an age to get to the carpark here at Aberdeen Airport. Not because the polis are looking for the escapee, because of the huge Offshore expo nearby. The extra security delays at the airport? Naah - the usual 'don't stop moving until you load stuff into the scanner trays.'

    Oh yes. Should have warned you about that. Offshore Europe. It bounces back and forth between Aberdeen and Stavagner every 2 years. Time was when you siply didn't bother trying to book a hotel in Aberdeen for the week it was on. In Norway people book hotels in Oslo or Bergen and fly back and forth to Stavanger every day for the Expo.
  • Options
    FarooqFarooq Posts: 10,837

    Heathener said:

    The political elite has given up on Britain
    Labour and the Tories have joined forces to condemn Britain to national failure. Their views are virtually indistinguishable

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/2023/09/06/labour-and-tories-have-united-form-government-of-failure/ (£££)

    It is not just the Corbynistas then.

    Without reading it let me guess the gist: we just need to believe in ourselves more so that we can capitalise on the benefits of Brexit?
    I used to read the Telegraph but I've given up. Not so much its politics per se but the reactionary nature of it now. Take today's front page. 5 of the 6 pieces on the front are reactionary anti-woke. There's even one having a dig about climate change. It's not that there aren't news stories embedded within. It's that they are dressed up in increasingly embittered language by old people raging against the dying of the light.
    A neat summation of the current government. Notable in the Rees-Mogg spat the other day was that he criticised the lack of things being done by the government. Parliament sits with short days because there is nothing being done by the government.

    The public are clear that the country is falling apart all around them. Yet the government not only does nothing, it seems to be it absolute denial that is happening. Note the RAAC scandal - Sunak insists that he increased funding as he cut it, that a lack of complaints by Starmer means there is no problem, and anyway most students won't be eaten by the shark therefore there is no shark.
    I asked my Dad, who is a buildings surveyor working for a local authority, about the concrete. He was quite dismissive, feeling it's been blown out of proportion by structural engineers who stand to gain masses of work by the crisis. I tend to agree.
    He is exactly right, people keep using the term "crumbling" when talking about Schools. How many school buildings have collapsed, how many injuries have occured?
    Er… how many injuries is an acceptable number to have before doing anything?
    You have to balance risk and cost (not just financial but also the disruption to education, etc)
    So, how many injuries is an acceptable number to have before doing anything?
    Greater than zero.
    Remarkable attitude. Truly remarkable.
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,951

    Exciting news on Good Morning Scotland whilst driving in that the escaped prisoner could be trying to leave the UK. An All Ports Bulletin issued so expect delays at airports.

    It took an age to get to the carpark here at Aberdeen Airport. Not because the polis are looking for the escapee, because of the huge Offshore expo nearby. The extra security delays at the airport? Naah - the usual 'don't stop moving until you load stuff into the scanner trays.'

    Oh yes. Should have warned you about that. Offshore Europe. It bounces back and forth between Aberdeen and Stavagner every 2 years. Time was when you siply didn't bother trying to book a hotel in Aberdeen for the week it was on. In Norway people book hotels in Oslo or Bergen and fly back and forth to Stavanger every day for the Expo.
    Doing their bit for global warming.
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,156
    Farooq said:

    FF43 said:

    On topic - is it correct that Labour's support in Scotland is a bit more efficient, in terms of geographical spread, than the SNP's? If so, a poll like this ought to give Labour the most seats in Scotland, no? The SNP might take some seats off the Tories, but Labour should take a lot of central belt seats back. Interesting times.

    The SNP vote is very evenly spread across the constituencies. As its vote share drops it goes from being first everywhere to second everywhere under FPTP. The reverse of 2015. It's a bit complex where Labour and SNP total vote is the same as Labour vote distribution is a bit lumpier
    The question remains where is the SNP losing votes? Is it uniform or is it concentrated?

    It's very easy to see Labour winning many seats from the SNP, but also not hard to see SNP winning seats like Caithness, or Moray.
    But that all depends on the assumption that the SNP's vote is declining in the central belt and holding up in the north. For all I know it could be the other way around, or across the board. The important point to remember is that Scotland itself is quite "lumpy" and the headline VI could mask a few different scenarios.
    The Caithness (etc) constituency is currently held by Jamie Stone of the LibDems.

    Just saying!
  • Options

    148grss said:

    Heathener said:

    The political elite has given up on Britain
    Labour and the Tories have joined forces to condemn Britain to national failure. Their views are virtually indistinguishable

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/2023/09/06/labour-and-tories-have-united-form-government-of-failure/ (£££)

    It is not just the Corbynistas then.

    Without reading it let me guess the gist: we just need to believe in ourselves more so that we can capitalise on the benefits of Brexit?
    I used to read the Telegraph but I've given up. Not so much its politics per se but the reactionary nature of it now. Take today's front page. 5 of the 6 pieces on the front are reactionary anti-woke. There's even one having a dig about climate change. It's not that there aren't news stories embedded within. It's that they are dressed up in increasingly embittered language by old people raging against the dying of the light.
    A neat summation of the current government. Notable in the Rees-Mogg spat the other day was that he criticised the lack of things being done by the government. Parliament sits with short days because there is nothing being done by the government.

    The public are clear that the country is falling apart all around them. Yet the government not only does nothing, it seems to be it absolute denial that is happening. Note the RAAC scandal - Sunak insists that he increased funding as he cut it, that a lack of complaints by Starmer means there is no problem, and anyway most students won't be eaten by the shark therefore there is no shark.
    I asked my Dad, who is a buildings surveyor working for a local authority, about the concrete. He was quite dismissive, feeling it's been blown out of proportion by
    structural engineers who stand to gain masses of work by the crisis. I tend to agree.
    It’s more the stupid precautionary principle that has infected so much of our decision making in the public sphere.

    The “right” answer is to survey all the school , mitigate, secure and fix. Not to close schools. But our politicians, driven by social media, are liable to panic. There is no upside for them doing the right thing and if even one kid gets hurt their career is over. So they overreact.
    "if even one kid gets hurt their career is over"

    I don't know if you have kids, but if that one kid was yours would you go "well, the balance of probabilities was my kid wouldn't be the one to get hurt / die" or would you go "the government knew this was going to happen eventually, why didn't they sort it out before it got to this point?". The problem is that the government dragged their feet and so that means the risk is higher than it was, and so have to be seen to do something now or kids will start getting hurt and people can point to No 10 as the responsible party. If they had done this 4-5 years ago (or even potentially used lockdown as a time to do this, although that would have been iffy from a health and safety pov, and the supply lines being buggered meant building materials were very expensive) we wouldn't be in this mess.
    Of course I’d be angry if it was my kid. But that’s why we have politicians who are supposed to look at the macro picture not the micro detail.

    Closing 100 schools disrupts the education of 100k kids. Is that a price worth paying vs a small risk of a collapse potentially hurting a kid?

    On your second paragraph hindsight is a wonderful thing
    The point is that if the government had been on this earlier and forked out to fix the problem we wouldn't be facing this horrible trade-off. If the government is asking parents whether they'd rather face a high probability of their child's education being disrupted or a small chance of their child being crushed to death then they have manifestly failed in their job. The fact that the guy who chose not to fork out for the repairs has made sure his own kids will never face this trade-off makes it utterly toxic.
  • Options
    148grss148grss Posts: 3,867

    148grss said:

    Heathener said:

    The political elite has given up on Britain
    Labour and the Tories have joined forces to condemn Britain to national failure. Their views are virtually indistinguishable

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/2023/09/06/labour-and-tories-have-united-form-government-of-failure/ (£££)

    It is not just the Corbynistas then.

    Without reading it let me guess the gist: we just need to believe in ourselves more so that we can capitalise on the benefits of Brexit?
    I used to read the Telegraph but I've given up. Not so much its politics per se but the reactionary nature of it now. Take today's front page. 5 of the 6 pieces on the front are reactionary anti-woke. There's even one having a dig about climate change. It's not that there aren't news stories embedded within. It's that they are dressed up in increasingly embittered language by old people raging against the dying of the light.
    A neat summation of the current government. Notable in the Rees-Mogg spat the other day was that he criticised the lack of things being done by the government. Parliament sits with short days because there is nothing being done by the government.

    The public are clear that the country is falling apart all around them. Yet the government not only does nothing, it seems to be it absolute denial that is happening. Note the RAAC scandal - Sunak insists that he increased funding as he cut it, that a lack of complaints by Starmer means there is no problem, and anyway most students won't be eaten by the shark therefore there is no shark.
    I asked my Dad, who is a buildings surveyor working for a local authority, about the concrete. He was quite dismissive, feeling it's been blown out of proportion by
    structural engineers who stand to gain masses of work by the crisis. I tend to agree.
    It’s more the stupid precautionary principle that has infected so much of our decision making in the public sphere.

    The “right” answer is to survey all the school , mitigate, secure and fix. Not to close schools. But our politicians, driven by social media, are liable to panic. There is no upside for them doing the right thing and if even one kid gets hurt their career is over. So they overreact.
    "if even one kid gets hurt their career is over"

    I don't know if you have kids, but if that one kid was yours would you go "well, the balance of probabilities was my kid wouldn't be the one to get hurt / die" or would you go "the government knew this was going to happen eventually, why didn't they sort it out before it got to this point?". The problem is that the government dragged their feet and so that means the risk is higher than it was, and so have to be seen to do something now or kids will start getting hurt and people can point to No 10 as the responsible party. If they had done this 4-5 years ago (or even potentially used lockdown as a time to do this, although that would have been iffy from a health and safety pov, and the supply lines being buggered meant building materials were very expensive) we wouldn't be in this mess.
    Of course I’d be angry if it was my kid. But that’s why we have politicians who are supposed to look at the macro picture not the micro detail.

    Closing 100 schools disrupts the education of 100k kids. Is that a price worth paying vs a small risk of a collapse potentially hurting a kid?

    On your second paragraph hindsight is a wonderful thing
    How many dead / injured kids is acceptable, then? You say greater than zero, but less than what? 5? 15? 100? If we're going to trolley problem this, where's the line? Utilitarianism is all very well, but then you have to accept that then the PM is going to be the one selling that to the public. And already Farquad and Jaws comparisons are happening, and no one is hurt yet.

    It's not just about hindsight, it's about a government that actually plans and does things before they become a crisis. If you're constantly fire fighting then you'll lose control of a fire or two, and that is not good governance.
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,594

    Heathener said:

    The political elite has given up on Britain
    Labour and the Tories have joined forces to condemn Britain to national failure. Their views are virtually indistinguishable

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/2023/09/06/labour-and-tories-have-united-form-government-of-failure/ (£££)

    It is not just the Corbynistas then.

    Without reading it let me guess the gist: we just need to believe in ourselves more so that we can capitalise on the benefits of Brexit?
    I used to read the Telegraph but I've given up. Not so much its politics per se but the reactionary nature of it now. Take today's front page. 5 of the 6 pieces on the front are reactionary anti-woke. There's even one having a dig about climate change. It's not that there aren't news stories embedded within. It's that they are dressed up in increasingly embittered language by old people raging against the dying of the light.
    A neat summation of the current government. Notable in the Rees-Mogg spat the other day was that he criticised the lack of things being done by the government. Parliament sits with short days because there is nothing being done by the government.

    The public are clear that the country is falling apart all around them. Yet the government not only does nothing, it seems to be it absolute denial that is happening. Note the RAAC scandal - Sunak insists that he increased funding as he cut it, that a lack of complaints by Starmer means there is no problem, and anyway most students won't be eaten by the shark therefore there is no shark.
    I asked my Dad, who is a buildings surveyor working for a local authority, about the concrete. He was quite dismissive, feeling it's been blown out of proportion by structural engineers who stand to gain masses of work by the crisis. I tend to agree.
    He is exactly right, people keep using the term "crumbling" when talking about Schools. How many school buildings have collapsed, how many injuries have occured?
    Er… how many injuries is an acceptable number to have before doing anything?
    Absolutely. 20mph speed limits on our motorways I say.
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,951

    Heathener said:

    Heathener said:

    The political elite has given up on Britain
    Labour and the Tories have joined forces to condemn Britain to national failure. Their views are virtually indistinguishable

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/2023/09/06/labour-and-tories-have-united-form-government-of-failure/ (£££)

    It is not just the Corbynistas then.

    Without reading it let me guess the gist: we just need to believe in ourselves more so that we can capitalise on the benefits of Brexit?
    I used to read the Telegraph but I've given up. Not so much its politics per se but the reactionary nature of it now. Take today's front page. 5 of the 6 pieces on the front are reactionary anti-woke. There's even one having a dig about climate change. It's not that there aren't news stories embedded within. It's that they are dressed up in increasingly embittered language by old people raging against the dying of the light.
    A neat summation of the current government. Notable in the Rees-Mogg spat the other day was that he criticised the lack of things being done by the government. Parliament sits with short days because there is nothing being done by the government.

    The public are clear that the country is falling apart all around them. Yet the government not only does nothing, it seems to be it absolute denial that is happening. Note the RAAC scandal - Sunak insists that he increased funding as he cut it, that a lack of complaints by Starmer means there is no problem, and anyway most students won't be eaten by the shark therefore there is no shark.
    I asked my Dad, who is a buildings surveyor working for a local authority, about the concrete. He was quite dismissive, feeling it's been blown out of proportion by structural engineers who stand to gain masses of work by the crisis. I tend to agree.
    He is exactly right, people keep using the term "crumbling" when talking about Schools. How many school buildings have collapsed, how many injuries have occured?
    Er… how many injuries is an acceptable number to have before doing anything?
    You have to balance risk and cost (not just financial but also the disruption to education, etc)
    Yeah but it's the same kind of solely capitalist-driven argument which led to the Zeebrugge ferry disaster in which 193 people died or, indeed, Aberfan in which 116 school children were crushed / suffocated to death whilst at school along with 28 adults.

    https://www.southwalesargus.co.uk/news/23066976.remembering-aberfan-disaster-1966/

    Aberfan happened under a nationalised industry and the failings that led to the disaster were due to ignorance and negligence, not the capitalist pursuit of profit. There were no great cost implications about siting the spoil heaps on the other side of the mountain - as had been done to the earlier spoil heaps during the privatised era. People just didn't think and really didn't care - until it was too late.
    Fair summary.

    Zeebrugge though. Aptly involving a ship called the Herald of Free Enterprise.
  • Options
    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,380
    pm215 said:

    TimS said:


    What makes a job crappy? Serious question - let’s try and define it.

    I think it’s a simple 3 x 3 matrix.

    - is it well paid or poorly paid
    - is it an interesting or fulfilling job to do
    - does it come with excessive levels of pressure or stress

    So the worst jobs are pointless and unfulfilling, highly stressful and poorly paid. The best are high paid, fascinating and with manageable levels of stress. David Attenborough’s job for example, or Michael Palin.
    I think that misses out a significant factor -- what are the other people, and especially your immediate boss, like? An otherwise mundane job with a group of friendly people who all get along can be a lot less awful than a job that's theoretically interesting but full of office politics and where the boss is a terrible micromanager (or worse).
    I agree with your matrix, but people vary a lot on which part really matters. The key for me is simply whether I can do the job well, though clearly that reflects an adequate financial position so the level of pay isn't crucial. Any irritating managers or colleagues can then be shrugged off. I've had times when I felt I wasn't solving the issues I faced adequately, and that was horrible even with friendly colleagues and boss.

    When I'm solving problems, hopefully helping people or animals, everything's fine, and high pressure is good fun. Yesterday, I had a complex, urgent report to write which took 7 hours of screen time with a short break, and I felt really happy about it by the end of the day.

    Our HR department worries about stress and has signed us all up for https://www.calm.com/ - I asked only half-jokingly whether we couldn't have an excite.com app for dull moments. The adrenalin that you get from productive stress is underrated.

  • Options
    EabhalEabhal Posts: 6,090
    Farooq said:

    Heathener said:

    The political elite has given up on Britain
    Labour and the Tories have joined forces to condemn Britain to national failure. Their views are virtually indistinguishable

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/2023/09/06/labour-and-tories-have-united-form-government-of-failure/ (£££)

    It is not just the Corbynistas then.

    Without reading it let me guess the gist: we just need to believe in ourselves more so that we can capitalise on the benefits of Brexit?
    I used to read the Telegraph but I've given up. Not so much its politics per se but the reactionary nature of it now. Take today's front page. 5 of the 6 pieces on the front are reactionary anti-woke. There's even one having a dig about climate change. It's not that there aren't news stories embedded within. It's that they are dressed up in increasingly embittered language by old people raging against the dying of the light.
    A neat summation of the current government. Notable in the Rees-Mogg spat the other day was that he criticised the lack of things being done by the government. Parliament sits with short days because there is nothing being done by the government.

    The public are clear that the country is falling apart all around them. Yet the government not only does nothing, it seems to be it absolute denial that is happening. Note the RAAC scandal - Sunak insists that he increased funding as he cut it, that a lack of complaints by Starmer means there is no problem, and anyway most students won't be eaten by the shark therefore there is no shark.
    I asked my Dad, who is a buildings surveyor working for a local authority, about the concrete. He was quite dismissive, feeling it's been blown out of proportion by structural engineers who stand to gain masses of work by the crisis. I tend to agree.
    He is exactly right, people keep using the term "crumbling" when talking about Schools. How many school buildings have collapsed, how many injuries have occured?
    Er… how many injuries is an acceptable number to have before doing anything?
    You have to balance risk and cost (not just financial but also the disruption to education, etc)
    So, how many injuries is an acceptable number to have before doing anything?
    Greater than zero.
    Remarkable attitude. Truly remarkable.
    I'm not convinced "crushing children to death" is the wedge issue the Tories are looking for.
  • Options
    FarooqFarooq Posts: 10,837

    Farooq said:

    FF43 said:

    On topic - is it correct that Labour's support in Scotland is a bit more efficient, in terms of geographical spread, than the SNP's? If so, a poll like this ought to give Labour the most seats in Scotland, no? The SNP might take some seats off the Tories, but Labour should take a lot of central belt seats back. Interesting times.

    The SNP vote is very evenly spread across the constituencies. As its vote share drops it goes from being first everywhere to second everywhere under FPTP. The reverse of 2015. It's a bit complex where Labour and SNP total vote is the same as Labour vote distribution is a bit lumpier
    The question remains where is the SNP losing votes? Is it uniform or is it concentrated?

    It's very easy to see Labour winning many seats from the SNP, but also not hard to see SNP winning seats like Caithness, or Moray.
    But that all depends on the assumption that the SNP's vote is declining in the central belt and holding up in the north. For all I know it could be the other way around, or across the board. The important point to remember is that Scotland itself is quite "lumpy" and the headline VI could mask a few different scenarios.
    The Caithness (etc) constituency is currently held by Jamie Stone of the LibDems.

    Just saying!
    Yes, and my point is that it's not beyond the realms of possibility to see the SNP vote to decline in the central belt and for the SNP to still gain that kind of seat. The Lib Dems are also not polling very well in Scotland at the moment. The top three parties in that seat are all struggling in their own way, but almost certainly one of them will win it. Probably the Lib Dems, but quite possibly SNP.
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,594
    Scott_xP said:

    What makes a job crappy? Serious question - let’s try and define it.

    That's a good question.

    I think the default definition would be long hours, hard work, low pay, but I had a job like that for years and I loved it.

    My least favourite job was in an office, well paid, limited responsibility.

    I think the best definition a crappy job is probably one that "does not reward" the staff, whether that reward is financial, intellectual, spiritual or something else.
    a) I am underpaid
    b) everyone else is earning more than me

    for any and every level of salary.
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,951
    TOPPING said:

    Heathener said:

    The political elite has given up on Britain
    Labour and the Tories have joined forces to condemn Britain to national failure. Their views are virtually indistinguishable

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/2023/09/06/labour-and-tories-have-united-form-government-of-failure/ (£££)

    It is not just the Corbynistas then.

    Without reading it let me guess the gist: we just need to believe in ourselves more so that we can capitalise on the benefits of Brexit?
    I used to read the Telegraph but I've given up. Not so much its politics per se but the reactionary nature of it now. Take today's front page. 5 of the 6 pieces on the front are reactionary anti-woke. There's even one having a dig about climate change. It's not that there aren't news stories embedded within. It's that they are dressed up in increasingly embittered language by old people raging against the dying of the light.
    A neat summation of the current government. Notable in the Rees-Mogg spat the other day was that he criticised the lack of things being done by the government. Parliament sits with short days because there is nothing being done by the government.

    The public are clear that the country is falling apart all around them. Yet the government not only does nothing, it seems to be it absolute denial that is happening. Note the RAAC scandal - Sunak insists that he increased funding as he cut it, that a lack of complaints by Starmer means there is no problem, and anyway most students won't be eaten by the shark therefore there is no shark.
    I asked my Dad, who is a buildings surveyor working for a local authority, about the concrete. He was quite dismissive, feeling it's been blown out of proportion by structural engineers who stand to gain masses of work by the crisis. I tend to agree.
    He is exactly right, people keep using the term "crumbling" when talking about Schools. How many school buildings have collapsed, how many injuries have occured?
    Er… how many injuries is an acceptable number to have before doing anything?
    Absolutely. 20mph speed limits on our motorways I say.
    Already in operation on the M25 between J10 and J16.
This discussion has been closed.