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Why I’m reluctant to bet on a LAB majority pt2 – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 11,765
edited September 2023 in General
imageWhy I’m reluctant to bet on a LAB majority pt2 – politicalbetting.com

Probably the biggest Westminster by-election shock of recent times was the failure by LAB to take Boris Johnson’s old seat at Uxbridge in the July contest.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • Options
    OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,919
    Imagine that... a 1st. Just wish my degree had been so easy!
  • Options
    eekeek Posts: 25,482
    Uxbridge was a unique situation where the Tory party was able to generate an anti-Labour vote because of something the London Mayor was forcing upon people.

    That situation was unique and equally not helped by Labour not pointing it he was only doing so because the Treasury was forcing the implementation to be extended throughout London...

    I was disappointed in Labour more by their inability / unwillingness to point out that the ULEZ zone is Sunak's fault than the fact they lost by a small amount.
  • Options
    Labour's lead is huge but very soft.
  • Options
    TazTaz Posts: 11,773
    And they say Nurses have it tough........

    Something we should be looking at doing here.

    https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/holidays/article-12483669/How-Macron-destroying-dream-owning-holiday-home-France-Britons-facing-60-property-tax-hike.html

    As for this statement "British citizens can no longer spend more than 90 days in EU countries in any 180-day period." Is this the case for all Brits or just those who were not living in the EU prior to Brexit ?
  • Options
    TazTaz Posts: 11,773

    Labour's lead is huge but very soft.

    Unless the Tory Party gets its act together sharpish, unlikely as it seems, that lead will perpetuate.
  • Options
    Really good chuckle on the last thread hearing from @Dura_Ace that One Foot In The Grave is edgy provocative drama.

    Lol.

    Bet he's got all of Keeping Up Appearances on VHS too.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 48,323
    ON topic.

    PB - should I walk up the Long Mynd?

    Everyone here goes on about it

  • Options
    Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,222

    Really good chuckle on the last thread hearing from @Dura_Ace that One Foot In The Grave is edgy provocative drama.

    Lol.

    Bet he's got all of Keeping Up Appearances on VHS too.

    It is/was huge in Belgium. 'Onslow' is Flemish slang for a Francophone Walloon.
  • Options
    bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 8,450
    If Labour repeat the Uxbridge swing nationally, they’re on the verge of an overall majority and definitely the largest party. And that’s their bad result.

    If your bad result is still good, that’s a good situation to be in.
  • Options
    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,385
    On topic, I think the scope for constituency-level tactics is much reduced at a GE. People are often not especially aware of local factors and constantly bombarded by national propaganda (including local leaflets written on national blueprints). To some extent that can be mitigated by intensive hard work between elections (MPs can do this almost full-time, depending on how far they aren't distracted by the Westminster job!), but actual attack lines on opposing candidates like the ULEZ campaign would need to be developed right now, and I'm not sure we're seeing much of that.
  • Options
    TimSTimS Posts: 10,241
    Taz said:

    Labour's lead is huge but very soft.

    Unless the Tory Party gets its act together sharpish, unlikely as it seems, that lead will perpetuate.
    I’m not sure it’s that soft either. It hasn’t arisen quickly but built up over time.

    As the old weather proverb says “long foretold, long last; short notice, soon passed”.
  • Options
    CookieCookie Posts: 11,763

    Really good chuckle on the last thread hearing from @Dura_Ace that One Foot In The Grave is edgy provocative drama.

    Lol.

    Bet he's got all of Keeping Up Appearances on VHS too.

    Unusually, I'm with Dura Ace on this one.

    Straight drama is in no way edgy or provactive. Your defences are already up. You know before it starts it's going to try to make you feel something. And real life is never as one dimensional as drama makes it look. Good sitcoms are amongst the highest of art forms; they are funny, but because they are funny, the not-straightforwardly-funny bits hit home that much more. I'd say the only times I've ever cried at fictional telly has been at sitcoms.
    And OFITG is a good sitcom. Among the top ten British sitcoms ever written.
    Also, the first series was bleak. As was the ending.
  • Options
    CookieCookie Posts: 11,763
    Off thread, I'm on a train to Wigan. The fella in front of me has a barcode tatooed into the back of his bald head. Why? It's too blurry to work in a supermarket scanner, though.
    He's just got off at Swinton.
  • Options
    Leon said:

    ON topic.

    PB - should I walk up the Long Mynd?

    Everyone here goes on about it

    Yes, do. Go up the Carding Mill Valley from Church Stretton and then find another way down. The valley is classically gorgeous but the quiet, remote atmosphere at the top is something else.

    I used to love the Horseshoe at Bridges (on the opposite side of the Mynd) years ago as a proper unspoilt rural pub. It's now called the Bridges and has gone all nose-to-tail gastro but apparently it's still ok - haven't been there for several years.
  • Options
    PhilPhil Posts: 1,964
    Leon said:

    ON topic.

    PB - should I walk up the Long Mynd?

    Everyone here goes on about it

    On a beautiful day like this one? Sure. Lovely dramatic countryside, the wild horses are great. Not a challenging walk - more rolling green hills with lots of heather. Take lots of water today - it’s going to be hot.
  • Options
    turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 15,725
    Cookie said:

    Really good chuckle on the last thread hearing from @Dura_Ace that One Foot In The Grave is edgy provocative drama.

    Lol.

    Bet he's got all of Keeping Up Appearances on VHS too.

    Unusually, I'm with Dura Ace on this one.

    Straight drama is in no way edgy or provactive. Your defences are already up. You know before it starts it's going to try to make you feel something. And real life is never as one dimensional as drama makes it look. Good sitcoms are amongst the highest of art forms; they are funny, but because they are funny, the not-straightforwardly-funny bits hit home that much more. I'd say the only times I've ever cried at fictional telly has been at sitcoms.
    And OFITG is a good sitcom. Among the top ten British sitcoms ever written.
    Also, the first series was bleak. As was the ending.
    Posted on the last thread:

    Darkness is at the heart of everything David Renwick ever did - see also Jonathon Creek (the later episodes in particular). In OFITG there is an obvious lack of children and grandchildren, and there are hint throughout the show of a trauma from a long time ago. I think its the contrast between Meldrews rants at the stuff that happens to him/them, but at heart its because he cares. See the episode where Margaret contemplates an affair.
  • Options
    I don't discount the possibility that the Cons might run a record-breakingly efficient and effective GE campaign.

    I don't discount it - I just don't think its very likely. Even if they still have the talent at Central Office I suspect the politicos would overrule them. Mr Sunak's genius at winning political campaigns was revealed about this time last year when even Liz Truss had few problems with him.

    I also suspect the Cons could hold some marginals - the problem will be that they seem odds-on to lose a sizable number of (theoretically) non-marginals.

    As has been written elsewhere - Uxbridge seems doomed to join Darlington, Crosby and Bradford West in the long, long, list of BEs that proved less than predictive
  • Options
    TimSTimS Posts: 10,241
    edited September 2023
    Haut Bourgeois sitcom - did we already have answers to this?

    Blackadder goes forth (earlier series were upper class).

    To the manor born

    Motherland

    Fawlty towers (borderline)

    Peep show

    Black books

    Miranda

    US: Seinfeld, Frazier, Friends, Curb your Enthusiasm, modern family
  • Options
    OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,919

    On topic, I think the scope for constituency-level tactics is much reduced at a GE. People are often not especially aware of local factors and constantly bombarded by national propaganda (including local leaflets written on national blueprints). To some extent that can be mitigated by intensive hard work between elections (MPs can do this almost full-time, depending on how far they aren't distracted by the Westminster job!), but actual attack lines on opposing candidates like the ULEZ campaign would need to be developed right now, and I'm not sure we're seeing much of that.

    NP, you didn't respond to my assertion that you coming out as a Corbynite was quite astonishing.
  • Options
    CookieCookie Posts: 11,763
    Leon said:

    ON topic.

    PB - should I walk up the Long Mynd?

    Everyone here goes on about it

    Yes, do.

    Brown Clee is also nice (and a county top) and offers quite surprisingly expansive views.

  • Options
    carnforthcarnforth Posts: 3,335
    eek said:

    Uxbridge was a unique situation where the Tory party was able to generate an anti-Labour vote because of something the London Mayor was forcing upon people.

    That situation was unique and equally not helped by Labour not pointing it he was only doing so because the Treasury was forcing the implementation to be extended throughout London...

    I was disappointed in Labour more by their inability / unwillingness to point out that the ULEZ zone is Sunak's fault than the fact they lost by a small amount.

    Is it true, though?

    https://fullfact.org/online/ulez-expansion-letter/
  • Options
    Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,222
    TimS said:


    Peep show

    You could be on to something here. Mrs DA's friend once said my politics were exactly like those of Super Hans.


  • Options
    CookieCookie Posts: 11,763

    Cookie said:

    Really good chuckle on the last thread hearing from @Dura_Ace that One Foot In The Grave is edgy provocative drama.

    Lol.

    Bet he's got all of Keeping Up Appearances on VHS too.

    Unusually, I'm with Dura Ace on this one.

    Straight drama is in no way edgy or provactive. Your defences are already up. You know before it starts it's going to try to make you feel something. And real life is never as one dimensional as drama makes it look. Good sitcoms are amongst the highest of art forms; they are funny, but because they are funny, the not-straightforwardly-funny bits hit home that much more. I'd say the only times I've ever cried at fictional telly has been at sitcoms.
    And OFITG is a good sitcom. Among the top ten British sitcoms ever written.
    Also, the first series was bleak. As was the ending.
    Posted on the last thread:

    Darkness is at the heart of everything David Renwick ever did - see also Jonathon Creek (the later episodes in particular). In OFITG there is an obvious lack of children and grandchildren, and there are hint throughout the show of a trauma from a long time ago. I think its the contrast between Meldrews rants at the stuff that happens to him/them, but at heart its because he cares. See the episode where Margaret contemplates an affair.
    Yes, well put. I think if you can watch OFITG and not basically sympathise with Victor, you have missed the point.
  • Options
    glwglw Posts: 9,583
    FPT:
    Phil said:

    It sounds like an error path was hit that hadn’t been accounted for, so when the code threw an exception it halted altogether. As it should do in that case of course.

    The full report is here: https://publicapps.caa.co.uk/docs/33/NERL Major Incident Investigation Preliminary Report.pdf

    The actual fault was that the code as written could not find an exit point for a flightpath that was supposed to transit UK airspace. The software issue is that this error path wasn’t handled in the code & hence the entire system was brought down instead of that specific flight path being kicked out for manual processing.

    There’s then a secondary issue in that it seems clear from the report that 1st & 2nd line support were too busy rigidly following their system failure procedures to actually do any root cause analysis & by the time those had failed to work & the top line support had been brought in from the company that wrote the code in the first place it was too late to get everything sorted out before the 4 hour time horizon was broken.

    That in turn seems to be because the actual error was buried inside system logs that 1st & 2nd line support didn’t know how to access. Presumably there was an error log with the dump of the exception & stack at point of failure, which would have pointed to the root cause fairly quickly, but unless you know to look you’re going to be thrashing around in the dark.

    This bit is key.

    The ADEXP waypoints plan included two waypoints along its route that were geographically distinct but which have the same designator.

    Although there has been work by ICAO and other bodies to eradicate non-unique waypoint names there are duplicates around the world. In order to avoid confusion latest standards state that such identical designators should be geographically widely spaced. In this specific event, both of the waypoints were located outside of the UK, one towards the beginning of the route and one towards the end; approximately 4000 nautical miles apart.


    I'm genuinely amazed that such a thing is allowed. If you are processing a graph and there are duplicate IDs/names that is just asking for trouble. It seems to have been assumed that if they are far enough apart it won't cause a problem in practice, well clearly that's not correct.

    Here's the fix.

    9. The feasibility of working through the UK state with ICAO to remove the small number of duplicate waypoint names in the ICAO administered global dataset that relate to this incident.


    Yeah, get cracking on that, it's ridiculous that they aren't unique.
  • Options
    TimSTimS Posts: 10,241
    edited September 2023
    Haut Bourgeois
    Cookie said:


    Leon said:

    ON topic.

    PB - should I walk up the Long Mynd?

    Everyone here goes on about it

    Yes, do.

    Brown Clee is also nice (and a county top) and offers quite surprisingly expansive views.

    The Long Mynd is weird, which I think qualifies it as worth visiting. It feels oddly foreign. Rift Valley, or inland Yemen.
  • Options
    CookieCookie Posts: 11,763

    Cookie said:

    Really good chuckle on the last thread hearing from @Dura_Ace that One Foot In The Grave is edgy provocative drama.

    Lol.

    Bet he's got all of Keeping Up Appearances on VHS too.

    Unusually, I'm with Dura Ace on this one.

    Straight drama is in no way edgy or provactive. Your defences are already up. You know before it starts it's going to try to make you feel something. And real life is never as one dimensional as drama makes it look. Good sitcoms are amongst the highest of art forms; they are funny, but because they are funny, the not-straightforwardly-funny bits hit home that much more. I'd say the only times I've ever cried at fictional telly has been at sitcoms.
    And OFITG is a good sitcom. Among the top ten British sitcoms ever written.
    Also, the first series was bleak. As was the ending.
    Posted on the last thread:

    Darkness is at the heart of everything David Renwick ever did - see also Jonathon Creek (the later episodes in particular). In OFITG there is an obvious lack of children and grandchildren, and there are hint throughout the show of a trauma from a long time ago. I think its the contrast between Meldrews rants at the stuff that happens to him/them, but at heart its because he cares. See the episode where Margaret contemplates an affair.
    Just looked up David Renwick. Apparently he was also responsible for 'Whoops Apocalypse' and for the Two Ronnies "answering the previous question' Mastermind sketch.
  • Options
    Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,222
    Cookie said:

    Cookie said:

    Really good chuckle on the last thread hearing from @Dura_Ace that One Foot In The Grave is edgy provocative drama.

    Lol.

    Bet he's got all of Keeping Up Appearances on VHS too.

    Unusually, I'm with Dura Ace on this one.

    Straight drama is in no way edgy or provactive. Your defences are already up. You know before it starts it's going to try to make you feel something. And real life is never as one dimensional as drama makes it look. Good sitcoms are amongst the highest of art forms; they are funny, but because they are funny, the not-straightforwardly-funny bits hit home that much more. I'd say the only times I've ever cried at fictional telly has been at sitcoms.
    And OFITG is a good sitcom. Among the top ten British sitcoms ever written.
    Also, the first series was bleak. As was the ending.
    Posted on the last thread:

    Darkness is at the heart of everything David Renwick ever did - see also Jonathon Creek (the later episodes in particular). In OFITG there is an obvious lack of children and grandchildren, and there are hint throughout the show of a trauma from a long time ago. I think its the contrast between Meldrews rants at the stuff that happens to him/them, but at heart its because he cares. See the episode where Margaret contemplates an affair.
    Yes, well put. I think if you can watch OFITG and not basically sympathise with Victor, you have missed the point.
    Margaret has a sort of inner resilience that means she'll be fine and probably a bit relieved when Victor dies. The whole arc of the show is basically Victor regressing into being the child they never had (or who died in infancy) and Margaret having to parent him. Hence his transient whims and lack of emotional regulation.
  • Options
    CookieCookie Posts: 11,763
    The coronation is still being celebrated on the Lancashire coalfield.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 63,707
    Dura_Ace said:

    TimS said:


    Peep show

    You could be on to something here. Mrs DA's friend once said my politics were exactly like those of Super Hans.


    The 'but...' captures you, I think.
  • Options
    Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 4,928

    Cookie said:

    Really good chuckle on the last thread hearing from @Dura_Ace that One Foot In The Grave is edgy provocative drama.

    Lol.

    Bet he's got all of Keeping Up Appearances on VHS too.

    Unusually, I'm with Dura Ace on this one.

    Straight drama is in no way edgy or provactive. Your defences are already up. You know before it starts it's going to try to make you feel something. And real life is never as one dimensional as drama makes it look. Good sitcoms are amongst the highest of art forms; they are funny, but because they are funny, the not-straightforwardly-funny bits hit home that much more. I'd say the only times I've ever cried at fictional telly has been at sitcoms.
    And OFITG is a good sitcom. Among the top ten British sitcoms ever written.
    Also, the first series was bleak. As was the ending.
    Posted on the last thread:

    Darkness is at the heart of everything David Renwick ever did - see also Jonathon Creek (the later episodes in particular). In OFITG there is an obvious lack of children and grandchildren, and there are hint throughout the show of a trauma from a long time ago. I think its the contrast between Meldrews rants at the stuff that happens to him/them, but at heart its because he cares. See the episode where Margaret contemplates an affair.
    I loved this lump of darkness to bits when it was shown, even if the critics held it at arm's length:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/If_You_See_God,_Tell_Him?wprov=sfla1
  • Options
    PhilPhil Posts: 1,964
    glw said:

    FPT:

    Phil said:

    It sounds like an error path was hit that hadn’t been accounted for, so when the code threw an exception it halted altogether. As it should do in that case of course.

    The full report is here: https://publicapps.caa.co.uk/docs/33/NERL Major Incident Investigation Preliminary Report.pdf

    The actual fault was that the code as written could not find an exit point for a flightpath that was supposed to transit UK airspace. The software issue is that this error path wasn’t handled in the code & hence the entire system was brought down instead of that specific flight path being kicked out for manual processing.

    There’s then a secondary issue in that it seems clear from the report that 1st & 2nd line support were too busy rigidly following their system failure procedures to actually do any root cause analysis & by the time those had failed to work & the top line support had been brought in from the company that wrote the code in the first place it was too late to get everything sorted out before the 4 hour time horizon was broken.

    That in turn seems to be because the actual error was buried inside system logs that 1st & 2nd line support didn’t know how to access. Presumably there was an error log with the dump of the exception & stack at point of failure, which would have pointed to the root cause fairly quickly, but unless you know to look you’re going to be thrashing around in the dark.

    This bit is key.

    The ADEXP waypoints plan included two waypoints along its route that were geographically distinct but which have the same designator.

    Although there has been work by ICAO and other bodies to eradicate non-unique waypoint names there are duplicates around the world. In order to avoid confusion latest standards state that such identical designators should be geographically widely spaced. In this specific event, both of the waypoints were located outside of the UK, one towards the beginning of the route and one towards the end; approximately 4000 nautical miles apart.


    I'm genuinely amazed that such a thing is allowed. If you are processing a graph and there are duplicate IDs/names that is just asking for trouble. It seems to have been assumed that if they are far enough apart it won't cause a problem in practice, well clearly that's not correct.

    Here's the fix.

    9. The feasibility of working through the UK state with ICAO to remove the small number of duplicate waypoint names in the ICAO administered global dataset that relate to this incident.


    Yeah, get cracking on that, it's ridiculous that they aren't unique.
    They are 5 character (all caps) names.

    Collisions are pretty likely: head to https://opennav.com/search & search for PINTO. You’ll get three responses.

    Eliminating them requires two (or three) different ATC systems in countries that don’t necessarily get along to agree to the change. Repeat until you’ve eliminated all the duplicates in the system.
  • Options
    TazTaz Posts: 11,773
    Cookie said:

    Cookie said:

    Really good chuckle on the last thread hearing from @Dura_Ace that One Foot In The Grave is edgy provocative drama.

    Lol.

    Bet he's got all of Keeping Up Appearances on VHS too.

    Unusually, I'm with Dura Ace on this one.

    Straight drama is in no way edgy or provactive. Your defences are already up. You know before it starts it's going to try to make you feel something. And real life is never as one dimensional as drama makes it look. Good sitcoms are amongst the highest of art forms; they are funny, but because they are funny, the not-straightforwardly-funny bits hit home that much more. I'd say the only times I've ever cried at fictional telly has been at sitcoms.
    And OFITG is a good sitcom. Among the top ten British sitcoms ever written.
    Also, the first series was bleak. As was the ending.
    Posted on the last thread:

    Darkness is at the heart of everything David Renwick ever did - see also Jonathon Creek (the later episodes in particular). In OFITG there is an obvious lack of children and grandchildren, and there are hint throughout the show of a trauma from a long time ago. I think its the contrast between Meldrews rants at the stuff that happens to him/them, but at heart its because he cares. See the episode where Margaret contemplates an affair.
    Just looked up David Renwick. Apparently he was also responsible for 'Whoops Apocalypse' and for the Two Ronnies "answering the previous question' Mastermind sketch.
    Partnered Andrew Marshall also wrote Hot Metal which was a great comment on Tabloid press and The Dirty Digger

  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 63,707
    No Radiohead ??

    We Asked the 2024 Candidates to Pick the Songs That Stir Their Souls
    https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2023/09/06/top-20-songs-chris-christie-nikki-haley-will-hurd-cornel-west-00113795
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 50,294
    Leon said:

    ON topic.

    PB - should I walk up the Long Mynd?

    Everyone here goes on about it

    YES, it’s lovely.

    There’s a gliding club up there by the way, give them a call if you want to take a look from the air!
    https://www.midlandgliding.club/
  • Options
    bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,101
    ho would make the better Chancellor?

    Who would make the better CotE
    Jeremy Hunt: 17% (+1)
    Rachel Reeves: 14% (-3)
    ---
    Don't know: 69% (+3)

    Via
    @YouGov
    , 21 Aug (+/- vs 24 Jul
  • Options
    FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,099
    Having been a optimist on the war in Ukraine I am increasingly feeling pessimistic now. We don't know how the counter offensive will finally play out, a major breakthrough remains possible but the west appears to be losing interest and the Russian population seems in no mind to do anything about it.

    Let me start with the attack on the grain in Reni. It is unclear whether any missiles or drones landed on Nato territory, the Ukrainians claim they did and there seems to be little attempt to geolocate etc to get to the bottom of it. No surprise as we saw something similar with Poland last year. Why does Putin feel emboldened to take such a risk anyway right on a Nato border? We are talking about grain being sent to feed some of the world's poorest people. What is to stop Romanian air defence from shooting down missiles near their border with Ukraine. I'm sure the Ukrainians would not object. But even this is too much of an escalation for Nato. All they would be doing is neutralising Russian missiles but no, this would bring Nato into direct conflict with Russia and that cannot be allowed. It beats me as to why there isn't more anger towards Russia from the global south about this but there you go. The Saudis cut oil production which should help Russia pay the bills for that much longer.

    Meanwhile the Ukrainian economy suffers because of the difficulty exporting through the Black Sea as they're being held hostage by the Russian Navy. Never mind that the Russian navy is nothing special and has fewer ships in the region than Turkey alone. That once you get to the Romanian border you are in entirely Nato waters. The narrative is all about whether Putin will extend the grain deal. He is the agent in all this. It's a matter of his beneficence. Why? Because Nato has no backbone. As the old saying goes it's not the size of the dog in the fight but the size of the fight in the dog. Putin might have misjudged many things but he saw the cowardice of Nato all too clearly.

    Anthony Blinken is back in Kyiv meeting a dog. Still no sign of ATACMS. Still no attempt to get control of Black Sea shipping. F16s will arrive sometime before Godot. Taurus missiles? More tanks? Perhaps it is time for major western leaders to fess up. What is it they are afraid of?
  • Options
    bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,101

    ho would make the better Chancellor?

    Who would make the better CotE
    Jeremy Hunt: 17% (+1)
    Rachel Reeves: 14% (-3)
    ---
    Don't know: 69% (+3)

    Via
    @YouGov
    , 21 Aug (+/- vs 24 Jul

    Austerity Reeves fans please explain!
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,703
    Just doing a bit of wiki spiralling following the current discussion thread, I find out that George, of George & Mildred (ie Brian Murphy) is still alive.
  • Options
    SirNorfolkPassmoreSirNorfolkPassmore Posts: 6,530
    edited September 2023
    Dura_Ace said:

    Cookie said:

    Cookie said:

    Really good chuckle on the last thread hearing from @Dura_Ace that One Foot In The Grave is edgy provocative drama.

    Lol.

    Bet he's got all of Keeping Up Appearances on VHS too.

    Unusually, I'm with Dura Ace on this one.

    Straight drama is in no way edgy or provactive. Your defences are already up. You know before it starts it's going to try to make you feel something. And real life is never as one dimensional as drama makes it look. Good sitcoms are amongst the highest of art forms; they are funny, but because they are funny, the not-straightforwardly-funny bits hit home that much more. I'd say the only times I've ever cried at fictional telly has been at sitcoms.
    And OFITG is a good sitcom. Among the top ten British sitcoms ever written.
    Also, the first series was bleak. As was the ending.
    Posted on the last thread:

    Darkness is at the heart of everything David Renwick ever did - see also Jonathon Creek (the later episodes in particular). In OFITG there is an obvious lack of children and grandchildren, and there are hint throughout the show of a trauma from a long time ago. I think its the contrast between Meldrews rants at the stuff that happens to him/them, but at heart its because he cares. See the episode where Margaret contemplates an affair.
    Yes, well put. I think if you can watch OFITG and not basically sympathise with Victor, you have missed the point.
    Margaret has a sort of inner resilience that means she'll be fine and probably a bit relieved when Victor dies. The whole arc of the show is basically Victor regressing into being the child they never had (or who died in infancy) and Margaret having to parent him. Hence his transient whims and lack of emotional regulation.
    Yes, I find that unspoken aspect of OFITG very touching. I don't know if Renwick has children himself or whether there is a bit of autobiography in there, but it is well handled.

    Terry and Sheila in the Detectorists are also a charming and often very moving take on the issue. Slightly more reciprocal in that case - both are becoming the child they lost, and both happy to support the other in that.

    Taking it to the political level, I can never forgive Andrea Leadsom for raising the matter in the 2016 Tory leadership election. I have no idea of the circumstances for the Mays, and don't want to, but it was an absolutely vile thing to do.
  • Options
    glwglw Posts: 9,583
    Phil said:

    They are 5 character (all caps) names.

    Collisions are pretty likely: head to https://opennav.com/search & search for PINTO. You’ll get three responses.

    Eliminating them requires two (or three) different ATC systems in countries that don’t necessarily get along to agree to the change. Repeat until you’ve eliminated all the duplicates in the system.

    I get the political and nationalist issues, but why would you want a name that is duplicated? Nothing good comes from it, it can only lead to problems, and with nearly 12 million combinations you can surely find something acceptable to use.
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,703

    Having been a optimist on the war in Ukraine I am increasingly feeling pessimistic now. We don't know how the counter offensive will finally play out, a major breakthrough remains possible but the west appears to be losing interest and the Russian population seems in no mind to do anything about it.

    Let me start with the attack on the grain in Reni. It is unclear whether any missiles or drones landed on Nato territory, the Ukrainians claim they did and there seems to be little attempt to geolocate etc to get to the bottom of it. No surprise as we saw something similar with Poland last year. Why does Putin feel emboldened to take such a risk anyway right on a Nato border? We are talking about grain being sent to feed some of the world's poorest people. What is to stop Romanian air defence from shooting down missiles near their border with Ukraine. I'm sure the Ukrainians would not object. But even this is too much of an escalation for Nato. All they would be doing is neutralising Russian missiles but no, this would bring Nato into direct conflict with Russia and that cannot be allowed. It beats me as to why there isn't more anger towards Russia from the global south about this but there you go. The Saudis cut oil production which should help Russia pay the bills for that much longer.

    Meanwhile the Ukrainian economy suffers because of the difficulty exporting through the Black Sea as they're being held hostage by the Russian Navy. Never mind that the Russian navy is nothing special and has fewer ships in the region than Turkey alone. That once you get to the Romanian border you are in entirely Nato waters. The narrative is all about whether Putin will extend the grain deal. He is the agent in all this. It's a matter of his beneficence. Why? Because Nato has no backbone. As the old saying goes it's not the size of the dog in the fight but the size of the fight in the dog. Putin might have misjudged many things but he saw the cowardice of Nato all too clearly.

    Anthony Blinken is back in Kyiv meeting a dog. Still no sign of ATACMS. Still no attempt to get control of Black Sea shipping. F16s will arrive sometime before Godot. Taurus missiles? More tanks? Perhaps it is time for major western leaders to fess up. What is it they are afraid of?

    They are afraid of WWIII starting on account of a regional conflict.

    Which bit of that is so hard for you to fathom.
  • Options

    Having been a optimist on the war in Ukraine I am increasingly feeling pessimistic now. We don't know how the counter offensive will finally play out, a major breakthrough remains possible but the west appears to be losing interest and the Russian population seems in no mind to do anything about it.

    Let me start with the attack on the grain in Reni. It is unclear whether any missiles or drones landed on Nato territory, the Ukrainians claim they did and there seems to be little attempt to geolocate etc to get to the bottom of it. No surprise as we saw something similar with Poland last year. Why does Putin feel emboldened to take such a risk anyway right on a Nato border? We are talking about grain being sent to feed some of the world's poorest people. What is to stop Romanian air defence from shooting down missiles near their border with Ukraine. I'm sure the Ukrainians would not object. But even this is too much of an escalation for Nato. All they would be doing is neutralising Russian missiles but no, this would bring Nato into direct conflict with Russia and that cannot be allowed. It beats me as to why there isn't more anger towards Russia from the global south about this but there you go. The Saudis cut oil production which should help Russia pay the bills for that much longer.

    Meanwhile the Ukrainian economy suffers because of the difficulty exporting through the Black Sea as they're being held hostage by the Russian Navy. Never mind that the Russian navy is nothing special and has fewer ships in the region than Turkey alone. That once you get to the Romanian border you are in entirely Nato waters. The narrative is all about whether Putin will extend the grain deal. He is the agent in all this. It's a matter of his beneficence. Why? Because Nato has no backbone. As the old saying goes it's not the size of the dog in the fight but the size of the fight in the dog. Putin might have misjudged many things but he saw the cowardice of Nato all too clearly.

    Anthony Blinken is back in Kyiv meeting a dog. Still no sign of ATACMS. Still no attempt to get control of Black Sea shipping. F16s will arrive sometime before Godot. Taurus missiles? More tanks? Perhaps it is time for major western leaders to fess up. What is it they are afraid of?

    "...there seems to be little attempt to geolocate etc to get to the bottom of it."

    On Twitter, it seems to have fairly firmly geolocated to Romanian territory. If you can believe Twitter that is.

    "Why does Putin feel emboldened to take such a risk anyway right on a Nato border?"

    Putin doesn't particularly care. In the same way we know his red lines are very flexible (as we've already seen), he well knows that the odd missile going into the territory of a NATO member country is not going to cause Article 5 to be invoked. That's if he actually knows, or gets to hear, about such details.

    More interesting is why the grain stores and transfer mechanisms are seen as being good targets by Russia. In a war they are not winning, if not actually losing, it seems a rather odd "screw you!" to the poor in the world. I do wonder if he believes the stories about shelves in UK supermarkets being empty, or people eating squirrels.

    "Because Nato has no backbone."

    It's a difficult one for NATO. I'd suggest the vast amount of help that NATO member states have given Ukraine show exactly the opposite. The only significant thing NATO could do itself is to invoke Article 5 for some reason.
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,703

    Dura_Ace said:

    Cookie said:

    Cookie said:

    Really good chuckle on the last thread hearing from @Dura_Ace that One Foot In The Grave is edgy provocative drama.

    Lol.

    Bet he's got all of Keeping Up Appearances on VHS too.

    Unusually, I'm with Dura Ace on this one.

    Straight drama is in no way edgy or provactive. Your defences are already up. You know before it starts it's going to try to make you feel something. And real life is never as one dimensional as drama makes it look. Good sitcoms are amongst the highest of art forms; they are funny, but because they are funny, the not-straightforwardly-funny bits hit home that much more. I'd say the only times I've ever cried at fictional telly has been at sitcoms.
    And OFITG is a good sitcom. Among the top ten British sitcoms ever written.
    Also, the first series was bleak. As was the ending.
    Posted on the last thread:

    Darkness is at the heart of everything David Renwick ever did - see also Jonathon Creek (the later episodes in particular). In OFITG there is an obvious lack of children and grandchildren, and there are hint throughout the show of a trauma from a long time ago. I think its the contrast between Meldrews rants at the stuff that happens to him/them, but at heart its because he cares. See the episode where Margaret contemplates an affair.
    Yes, well put. I think if you can watch OFITG and not basically sympathise with Victor, you have missed the point.
    Margaret has a sort of inner resilience that means she'll be fine and probably a bit relieved when Victor dies. The whole arc of the show is basically Victor regressing into being the child they never had (or who died in infancy) and Margaret having to parent him. Hence his transient whims and lack of emotional regulation.
    Terry and Sheila in the Detectorists are also a charming and often very moving take on the issue. Slightly more reciprocal in that case - both are becoming the child they lost, and both happy to support the other in that.
    The pub scene with Sheila remains one of the best in UK TV.

    There are equally good scenes in After Life.

    What a great schooling ground The Office was.
  • Options

    Dura_Ace said:

    Cookie said:

    Cookie said:

    Really good chuckle on the last thread hearing from @Dura_Ace that One Foot In The Grave is edgy provocative drama.

    Lol.

    Bet he's got all of Keeping Up Appearances on VHS too.

    Unusually, I'm with Dura Ace on this one.

    Straight drama is in no way edgy or provactive. Your defences are already up. You know before it starts it's going to try to make you feel something. And real life is never as one dimensional as drama makes it look. Good sitcoms are amongst the highest of art forms; they are funny, but because they are funny, the not-straightforwardly-funny bits hit home that much more. I'd say the only times I've ever cried at fictional telly has been at sitcoms.
    And OFITG is a good sitcom. Among the top ten British sitcoms ever written.
    Also, the first series was bleak. As was the ending.
    Posted on the last thread:

    Darkness is at the heart of everything David Renwick ever did - see also Jonathon Creek (the later episodes in particular). In OFITG there is an obvious lack of children and grandchildren, and there are hint throughout the show of a trauma from a long time ago. I think its the contrast between Meldrews rants at the stuff that happens to him/them, but at heart its because he cares. See the episode where Margaret contemplates an affair.
    Yes, well put. I think if you can watch OFITG and not basically sympathise with Victor, you have missed the point.
    Margaret has a sort of inner resilience that means she'll be fine and probably a bit relieved when Victor dies. The whole arc of the show is basically Victor regressing into being the child they never had (or who died in infancy) and Margaret having to parent him. Hence his transient whims and lack of emotional regulation.
    Yes, I find that unspoken aspect of OFITG very touching. I don't know if Renwick has children himself or whether there is a bit of autobiography in there, but it is well handled.

    Terry and Sheila in the Detectorists are also a charming and often very moving take on the issue. Slightly more reciprocal in that case - both are becoming the child they lost, and both happy to support the other in that.

    Taking it to the political level, I can never forgive Andrea Leadsom for raising the matter in the 2016 Tory leadership election. I have no idea of the circumstances for the Mays, and don't want to, but it was an absolutely vile thing to do.
    Leadsom should have been more careful but it was really a case of entrapment by the journalist. She was obviously mortified about the way it was reported which is why she pulled out rather than let the issue linger over the vote.
  • Options
    PhilPhil Posts: 1,964
    glw said:

    Phil said:

    They are 5 character (all caps) names.

    Collisions are pretty likely: head to https://opennav.com/search & search for PINTO. You’ll get three responses.

    Eliminating them requires two (or three) different ATC systems in countries that don’t necessarily get along to agree to the change. Repeat until you’ve eliminated all the duplicates in the system.

    I get the political and nationalist issues, but why would you want a name that is duplicated? Nothing good comes from it, it can only lead to problems, and with nearly 12 million combinations you can surely find something acceptable to use.
    I would imagine that many of these names were coined decades ago, possibly before long haul international flights were even a thing. That different places happened to choose the same prefix for an airport that was 4000 miles away from another one with the same name wouldn’t have mattered to anyone - if you were in range to see a name being used then you knew exactly where they were talking about.

    Also, apparently these names are supposed to be pronounceable on the radio, which does limit the available keyspace.

    We’ve taken a legacy system that worked when it was devised & tried to force it to fit the needs of modern worldwide aviation. It’s not entirely surprising that there are some failure modes as a result of this.
  • Options
    Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,222

    What is it they are afraid of?

    1. NATO vs RF conflict that goes hot by accident.
    2. Nukes. The US intelligence community have showed criminal negligence by ignoring the repeated assurances on this web site that the Russian Strategic Rocket Forces doesn't work
    3. Tipping the RF into a messy disintegration to the great strategic benefit of China and the EU
    4. Fracturing the shaky US/EU unanimity on this issue. (They know the UK will do whatever they are told.)
    5. Not being able to get anything too expensive/effective through Congress.
  • Options
    TOPPING said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Cookie said:

    Cookie said:

    Really good chuckle on the last thread hearing from @Dura_Ace that One Foot In The Grave is edgy provocative drama.

    Lol.

    Bet he's got all of Keeping Up Appearances on VHS too.

    Unusually, I'm with Dura Ace on this one.

    Straight drama is in no way edgy or provactive. Your defences are already up. You know before it starts it's going to try to make you feel something. And real life is never as one dimensional as drama makes it look. Good sitcoms are amongst the highest of art forms; they are funny, but because they are funny, the not-straightforwardly-funny bits hit home that much more. I'd say the only times I've ever cried at fictional telly has been at sitcoms.
    And OFITG is a good sitcom. Among the top ten British sitcoms ever written.
    Also, the first series was bleak. As was the ending.
    Posted on the last thread:

    Darkness is at the heart of everything David Renwick ever did - see also Jonathon Creek (the later episodes in particular). In OFITG there is an obvious lack of children and grandchildren, and there are hint throughout the show of a trauma from a long time ago. I think its the contrast between Meldrews rants at the stuff that happens to him/them, but at heart its because he cares. See the episode where Margaret contemplates an affair.
    Yes, well put. I think if you can watch OFITG and not basically sympathise with Victor, you have missed the point.
    Margaret has a sort of inner resilience that means she'll be fine and probably a bit relieved when Victor dies. The whole arc of the show is basically Victor regressing into being the child they never had (or who died in infancy) and Margaret having to parent him. Hence his transient whims and lack of emotional regulation.
    Terry and Sheila in the Detectorists are also a charming and often very moving take on the issue. Slightly more reciprocal in that case - both are becoming the child they lost, and both happy to support the other in that.
    The pub scene with Sheila remains one of the best in UK TV.

    There are equally good scenes in After Life.

    What a great schooling ground The Office was.
    Was just Googling that scene! Brilliantly written and my goodness that pair can act.

    I believe Sheila was played by Emma Thompson's sister, and she and Toby Jones are absolutely top notch at the old prancing about pretending to be someone else game.
  • Options

    Dura_Ace said:

    Cookie said:

    Cookie said:

    Really good chuckle on the last thread hearing from @Dura_Ace that One Foot In The Grave is edgy provocative drama.

    Lol.

    Bet he's got all of Keeping Up Appearances on VHS too.

    Unusually, I'm with Dura Ace on this one.

    Straight drama is in no way edgy or provactive. Your defences are already up. You know before it starts it's going to try to make you feel something. And real life is never as one dimensional as drama makes it look. Good sitcoms are amongst the highest of art forms; they are funny, but because they are funny, the not-straightforwardly-funny bits hit home that much more. I'd say the only times I've ever cried at fictional telly has been at sitcoms.
    And OFITG is a good sitcom. Among the top ten British sitcoms ever written.
    Also, the first series was bleak. As was the ending.
    Posted on the last thread:

    Darkness is at the heart of everything David Renwick ever did - see also Jonathon Creek (the later episodes in particular). In OFITG there is an obvious lack of children and grandchildren, and there are hint throughout the show of a trauma from a long time ago. I think its the contrast between Meldrews rants at the stuff that happens to him/them, but at heart its because he cares. See the episode where Margaret contemplates an affair.
    Yes, well put. I think if you can watch OFITG and not basically sympathise with Victor, you have missed the point.
    Margaret has a sort of inner resilience that means she'll be fine and probably a bit relieved when Victor dies. The whole arc of the show is basically Victor regressing into being the child they never had (or who died in infancy) and Margaret having to parent him. Hence his transient whims and lack of emotional regulation.
    Yes, I find that unspoken aspect of OFITG very touching. I don't know if Renwick has children himself or whether there is a bit of autobiography in there, but it is well handled.

    Terry and Sheila in the Detectorists are also a charming and often very moving take on the issue. Slightly more reciprocal in that case - both are becoming the child they lost, and both happy to support the other in that.

    Taking it to the political level, I can never forgive Andrea Leadsom for raising the matter in the 2016 Tory leadership election. I have no idea of the circumstances for the Mays, and don't want to, but it was an absolutely vile thing to do.
    Leadsom should have been more careful but it was really a case of entrapment by the journalist. She was obviously mortified about the way it was reported which is why she pulled out rather than let the issue linger over the vote.
    Not just crass/easily entrapped pols. This isn't made any better by the fucking awful illustration that goes with it.


  • Options
    TOPPING said:

    Having been a optimist on the war in Ukraine I am increasingly feeling pessimistic now. We don't know how the counter offensive will finally play out, a major breakthrough remains possible but the west appears to be losing interest and the Russian population seems in no mind to do anything about it.

    Let me start with the attack on the grain in Reni. It is unclear whether any missiles or drones landed on Nato territory, the Ukrainians claim they did and there seems to be little attempt to geolocate etc to get to the bottom of it. No surprise as we saw something similar with Poland last year. Why does Putin feel emboldened to take such a risk anyway right on a Nato border? We are talking about grain being sent to feed some of the world's poorest people. What is to stop Romanian air defence from shooting down missiles near their border with Ukraine. I'm sure the Ukrainians would not object. But even this is too much of an escalation for Nato. All they would be doing is neutralising Russian missiles but no, this would bring Nato into direct conflict with Russia and that cannot be allowed. It beats me as to why there isn't more anger towards Russia from the global south about this but there you go. The Saudis cut oil production which should help Russia pay the bills for that much longer.

    Meanwhile the Ukrainian economy suffers because of the difficulty exporting through the Black Sea as they're being held hostage by the Russian Navy. Never mind that the Russian navy is nothing special and has fewer ships in the region than Turkey alone. That once you get to the Romanian border you are in entirely Nato waters. The narrative is all about whether Putin will extend the grain deal. He is the agent in all this. It's a matter of his beneficence. Why? Because Nato has no backbone. As the old saying goes it's not the size of the dog in the fight but the size of the fight in the dog. Putin might have misjudged many things but he saw the cowardice of Nato all too clearly.

    Anthony Blinken is back in Kyiv meeting a dog. Still no sign of ATACMS. Still no attempt to get control of Black Sea shipping. F16s will arrive sometime before Godot. Taurus missiles? More tanks? Perhaps it is time for major western leaders to fess up. What is it they are afraid of?

    They are afraid of WWIII starting on account of a regional conflict.

    Which bit of that is so hard for you to fathom.
    It's a heck of a lot more than a 'regional conflict', isn't it? It has widespread effects on global geopolitics.
  • Options
    CiceroCicero Posts: 2,398
    Taz said:

    Cookie said:

    Cookie said:

    Really good chuckle on the last thread hearing from @Dura_Ace that One Foot In The Grave is edgy provocative drama.

    Lol.

    Bet he's got all of Keeping Up Appearances on VHS too.

    Unusually, I'm with Dura Ace on this one.

    Straight drama is in no way edgy or provactive. Your defences are already up. You know before it starts it's going to try to make you feel something. And real life is never as one dimensional as drama makes it look. Good sitcoms are amongst the highest of art forms; they are funny, but because they are funny, the not-straightforwardly-funny bits hit home that much more. I'd say the only times I've ever cried at fictional telly has been at sitcoms.
    And OFITG is a good sitcom. Among the top ten British sitcoms ever written.
    Also, the first series was bleak. As was the ending.
    Posted on the last thread:

    Darkness is at the heart of everything David Renwick ever did - see also Jonathon Creek (the later episodes in particular). In OFITG there is an obvious lack of children and grandchildren, and there are hint throughout the show of a trauma from a long time ago. I think its the contrast between Meldrews rants at the stuff that happens to him/them, but at heart its because he cares. See the episode where Margaret contemplates an affair.
    Just looked up David Renwick. Apparently he was also responsible for 'Whoops Apocalypse' and for the Two Ronnies "answering the previous question' Mastermind sketch.
    Partnered Andrew Marshall also wrote Hot Metal which was a great comment on Tabloid press and The Dirty Digger

    They also wrote the brilliant surreal Radio 4 series "The Burkiss Way to Dynamic Living".. genuinely genius.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 50,294
    glw said:

    FPT:

    Phil said:

    It sounds like an error path was hit that hadn’t been accounted for, so when the code threw an exception it halted altogether. As it should do in that case of course.

    The full report is here: https://publicapps.caa.co.uk/docs/33/NERL Major Incident Investigation Preliminary Report.pdf

    The actual fault was that the code as written could not find an exit point for a flightpath that was supposed to transit UK airspace. The software issue is that this error path wasn’t handled in the code & hence the entire system was brought down instead of that specific flight path being kicked out for manual processing.

    There’s then a secondary issue in that it seems clear from the report that 1st & 2nd line support were too busy rigidly following their system failure procedures to actually do any root cause analysis & by the time those had failed to work & the top line support had been brought in from the company that wrote the code in the first place it was too late to get everything sorted out before the 4 hour time horizon was broken.

    That in turn seems to be because the actual error was buried inside system logs that 1st & 2nd line support didn’t know how to access. Presumably there was an error log with the dump of the exception & stack at point of failure, which would have pointed to the root cause fairly quickly, but unless you know to look you’re going to be thrashing around in the dark.

    This bit is key.

    The ADEXP waypoints plan included two waypoints along its route that were geographically distinct but which have the same designator.

    Although there has been work by ICAO and other bodies to eradicate non-unique waypoint names there are duplicates around the world. In order to avoid confusion latest standards state that such identical designators should be geographically widely spaced. In this specific event, both of the waypoints were located outside of the UK, one towards the beginning of the route and one towards the end; approximately 4000 nautical miles apart.


    I'm genuinely amazed that such a thing is allowed. If you are processing a graph and there are duplicate IDs/names that is just asking for trouble. It seems to have been assumed that if they are far enough apart it won't cause a problem in practice, well clearly that's not correct.

    Here's the fix.

    9. The feasibility of working through the UK state with ICAO to remove the small number of duplicate waypoint names in the ICAO administered global dataset that relate to this incident.


    Yeah, get cracking on that, it's ridiculous that they aren't unique.
    Wow, that really was the wierdest of errors in the system. You could test that system for decades and never find it, until one day it does. No surprise that the backup system, which is usually one software version behind production, also fell over with the same error.

    Hey, software has bugs, and sh!t happens occasionally. The important thing being that the systems failed safe as designed, rather than passing incorrect information to controllers. It’s also highlighted a wider, global, problem, for which ICAO needs to fix ASAP.

    As far as customers are concerned, the fact that the airlines run their pilots to within a few minutes of their allowable duty schedule on a good day, is something that tells you not to fly with Ryanair.
  • Options
    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 27,643
    Leon said:

    ON topic.

    PB - should I walk up the Long Mynd?

    Everyone here goes on about it

    Definitely.
  • Options
    TazTaz Posts: 11,773
    Cicero said:

    Taz said:

    Cookie said:

    Cookie said:

    Really good chuckle on the last thread hearing from @Dura_Ace that One Foot In The Grave is edgy provocative drama.

    Lol.

    Bet he's got all of Keeping Up Appearances on VHS too.

    Unusually, I'm with Dura Ace on this one.

    Straight drama is in no way edgy or provactive. Your defences are already up. You know before it starts it's going to try to make you feel something. And real life is never as one dimensional as drama makes it look. Good sitcoms are amongst the highest of art forms; they are funny, but because they are funny, the not-straightforwardly-funny bits hit home that much more. I'd say the only times I've ever cried at fictional telly has been at sitcoms.
    And OFITG is a good sitcom. Among the top ten British sitcoms ever written.
    Also, the first series was bleak. As was the ending.
    Posted on the last thread:

    Darkness is at the heart of everything David Renwick ever did - see also Jonathon Creek (the later episodes in particular). In OFITG there is an obvious lack of children and grandchildren, and there are hint throughout the show of a trauma from a long time ago. I think its the contrast between Meldrews rants at the stuff that happens to him/them, but at heart its because he cares. See the episode where Margaret contemplates an affair.
    Just looked up David Renwick. Apparently he was also responsible for 'Whoops Apocalypse' and for the Two Ronnies "answering the previous question' Mastermind sketch.
    Partnered Andrew Marshall also wrote Hot Metal which was a great comment on Tabloid press and The Dirty Digger

    They also wrote the brilliant surreal Radio 4 series "The Burkiss Way to Dynamic Living".. genuinely genius.
    Not heard it but a couple of mates of mine recommend it. I will have to dig it out.

    I am sure it is the forerunner of "End of Part One", one of theirs too, which was an excellent, if anarchic, show.
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 115,093
    edited September 2023

    ho would make the better Chancellor?

    Who would make the better CotE
    Jeremy Hunt: 17% (+1)
    Rachel Reeves: 14% (-3)
    ---
    Don't know: 69% (+3)

    Via
    @YouGov
    , 21 Aug (+/- vs 24 Jul

    ho would make the better Chancellor?

    Who would make the better CotE
    Jeremy Hunt: 17% (+1)
    Rachel Reeves: 14% (-3)
    ---
    Don't know: 69% (+3)

    Via
    @YouGov
    , 21 Aug (+/- vs 24 Jul

    Austerity Reeves fans please explain!
    Your mate Stats for Lefties is pimping an old poll.

    Why not use the most recent poll from YouGov?

    Labour's Rachel Reeves has opened up a clear lead over the Conservatives' Jeremy Hunt when voters are asked who should be the next chancellor of the exchequer, according to an exclusive poll for Sky News.

    The Labour shadow chancellor is the choice of 21% of voters, according to YouGov, while Jeremy Hunt is judged to make the better chancellor by 14%.

    Ms Reeves and Mr Hunt have been broadly neck-and-neck in the polls since Mr Hunt was appointed chancellor last October, so this poll represents the first moment where the opposition have taken a meaningful lead.


    https://news.sky.com/story/voters-prefer-rachel-reeves-to-jeremy-hunt-for-chancellor-poll-shows-12955614?dcmp=snt-sf-twitter
  • Options
    "Romania confirms Russian drone debris fell on its territory
    ‘I confirm that pieces were found that could be a drone,’ says Romanian defense minister."

    https://www.politico.eu/article/romania-confirms-russia-drone-debris-fell-on-its-territory-ukraine-war/
  • Options

    Dura_Ace said:

    Cookie said:

    Cookie said:

    Really good chuckle on the last thread hearing from @Dura_Ace that One Foot In The Grave is edgy provocative drama.

    Lol.

    Bet he's got all of Keeping Up Appearances on VHS too.

    Unusually, I'm with Dura Ace on this one.

    Straight drama is in no way edgy or provactive. Your defences are already up. You know before it starts it's going to try to make you feel something. And real life is never as one dimensional as drama makes it look. Good sitcoms are amongst the highest of art forms; they are funny, but because they are funny, the not-straightforwardly-funny bits hit home that much more. I'd say the only times I've ever cried at fictional telly has been at sitcoms.
    And OFITG is a good sitcom. Among the top ten British sitcoms ever written.
    Also, the first series was bleak. As was the ending.
    Posted on the last thread:

    Darkness is at the heart of everything David Renwick ever did - see also Jonathon Creek (the later episodes in particular). In OFITG there is an obvious lack of children and grandchildren, and there are hint throughout the show of a trauma from a long time ago. I think its the contrast between Meldrews rants at the stuff that happens to him/them, but at heart its because he cares. See the episode where Margaret contemplates an affair.
    Yes, well put. I think if you can watch OFITG and not basically sympathise with Victor, you have missed the point.
    Margaret has a sort of inner resilience that means she'll be fine and probably a bit relieved when Victor dies. The whole arc of the show is basically Victor regressing into being the child they never had (or who died in infancy) and Margaret having to parent him. Hence his transient whims and lack of emotional regulation.
    Yes, I find that unspoken aspect of OFITG very touching. I don't know if Renwick has children himself or whether there is a bit of autobiography in there, but it is well handled.

    Terry and Sheila in the Detectorists are also a charming and often very moving take on the issue. Slightly more reciprocal in that case - both are becoming the child they lost, and both happy to support the other in that.

    Taking it to the political level, I can never forgive Andrea Leadsom for raising the matter in the 2016 Tory leadership election. I have no idea of the circumstances for the Mays, and don't want to, but it was an absolutely vile thing to do.
    Leadsom should have been more careful but it was really a case of entrapment by the journalist. She was obviously mortified about the way it was reported which is why she pulled out rather than let the issue linger over the vote.
    I bloody well hope Leadsom was mortified, although she didn't give that impression at the time and it had more of a flavour of backers pulling out and her being handed the brandy and a revolver.

    Penny Mordaunt was Leadsom's proposer in 2016, which I've always found a bit weird. Mind you, that's probably why Mordaunt will never get the top job - loads of things going for her, pretty sensible overall, but prone every so often to think carefully about an important decision before making a mindblowingly bad political judgment.
  • Options
    On topic, on Sunday I will also be doing a piece on why I think a Labour majority is unlikely.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 50,294

    Having been a optimist on the war in Ukraine I am increasingly feeling pessimistic now. We don't know how the counter offensive will finally play out, a major breakthrough remains possible but the west appears to be losing interest and the Russian population seems in no mind to do anything about it.

    Let me start with the attack on the grain in Reni. It is unclear whether any missiles or drones landed on Nato territory, the Ukrainians claim they did and there seems to be little attempt to geolocate etc to get to the bottom of it. No surprise as we saw something similar with Poland last year. Why does Putin feel emboldened to take such a risk anyway right on a Nato border? We are talking about grain being sent to feed some of the world's poorest people. What is to stop Romanian air defence from shooting down missiles near their border with Ukraine. I'm sure the Ukrainians would not object. But even this is too much of an escalation for Nato. All they would be doing is neutralising Russian missiles but no, this would bring Nato into direct conflict with Russia and that cannot be allowed. It beats me as to why there isn't more anger towards Russia from the global south about this but there you go. The Saudis cut oil production which should help Russia pay the bills for that much longer.

    Meanwhile the Ukrainian economy suffers because of the difficulty exporting through the Black Sea as they're being held hostage by the Russian Navy. Never mind that the Russian navy is nothing special and has fewer ships in the region than Turkey alone. That once you get to the Romanian border you are in entirely Nato waters. The narrative is all about whether Putin will extend the grain deal. He is the agent in all this. It's a matter of his beneficence. Why? Because Nato has no backbone. As the old saying goes it's not the size of the dog in the fight but the size of the fight in the dog. Putin might have misjudged many things but he saw the cowardice of Nato all too clearly.

    Anthony Blinken is back in Kyiv meeting a dog. Still no sign of ATACMS. Still no attempt to get control of Black Sea shipping. F16s will arrive sometime before Godot. Taurus missiles? More tanks? Perhaps it is time for major western leaders to fess up. What is it they are afraid of?

    "...there seems to be little attempt to geolocate etc to get to the bottom of it."

    On Twitter, it seems to have fairly firmly geolocated to Romanian territory. If you can believe Twitter that is.

    "Why does Putin feel emboldened to take such a risk anyway right on a Nato border?"

    Putin doesn't particularly care. In the same way we know his red lines are very flexible (as we've already seen), he well knows that the odd missile going into the territory of a NATO member country is not going to cause Article 5 to be invoked. That's if he actually knows, or gets to hear, about such details.

    More interesting is why the grain stores and transfer mechanisms are seen as being good targets by Russia. In a war they are not winning, if not actually losing, it seems a rather odd "screw you!" to the poor in the world. I do wonder if he believes the stories about shelves in UK supermarkets being empty, or people eating squirrels.

    "Because Nato has no backbone."

    It's a difficult one for NATO. I'd suggest the vast amount of help that NATO member states have given Ukraine show exactly the opposite. The only significant thing NATO could do itself is to invoke Article 5 for some reason.
    The bombing of the grain export facilities is definitely being noticed here in OPEC-land, alongside Russia’s failure to cut O&G production after they’d agreed to it.

    As I’ve said many times before, the Western nations need to persuade OPEC to start pumping and shut out Russia from the market.

    Russian oil goes out at a massive discount to China & India, who then try and recycle it back into global markets. A lower price makes them give it away for almost nothing, in a situation where the O&G infrastructure in Russia is becoming increasingly difficult to maintain. Which is why they’re pumping it out ASAP.

    Meanwhile, the official Brent Crude price is nudging $90 today, up 20% in the last three months.
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,703
    edited September 2023

    TOPPING said:

    Having been a optimist on the war in Ukraine I am increasingly feeling pessimistic now. We don't know how the counter offensive will finally play out, a major breakthrough remains possible but the west appears to be losing interest and the Russian population seems in no mind to do anything about it.

    Let me start with the attack on the grain in Reni. It is unclear whether any missiles or drones landed on Nato territory, the Ukrainians claim they did and there seems to be little attempt to geolocate etc to get to the bottom of it. No surprise as we saw something similar with Poland last year. Why does Putin feel emboldened to take such a risk anyway right on a Nato border? We are talking about grain being sent to feed some of the world's poorest people. What is to stop Romanian air defence from shooting down missiles near their border with Ukraine. I'm sure the Ukrainians would not object. But even this is too much of an escalation for Nato. All they would be doing is neutralising Russian missiles but no, this would bring Nato into direct conflict with Russia and that cannot be allowed. It beats me as to why there isn't more anger towards Russia from the global south about this but there you go. The Saudis cut oil production which should help Russia pay the bills for that much longer.

    Meanwhile the Ukrainian economy suffers because of the difficulty exporting through the Black Sea as they're being held hostage by the Russian Navy. Never mind that the Russian navy is nothing special and has fewer ships in the region than Turkey alone. That once you get to the Romanian border you are in entirely Nato waters. The narrative is all about whether Putin will extend the grain deal. He is the agent in all this. It's a matter of his beneficence. Why? Because Nato has no backbone. As the old saying goes it's not the size of the dog in the fight but the size of the fight in the dog. Putin might have misjudged many things but he saw the cowardice of Nato all too clearly.

    Anthony Blinken is back in Kyiv meeting a dog. Still no sign of ATACMS. Still no attempt to get control of Black Sea shipping. F16s will arrive sometime before Godot. Taurus missiles? More tanks? Perhaps it is time for major western leaders to fess up. What is it they are afraid of?

    They are afraid of WWIII starting on account of a regional conflict.

    Which bit of that is so hard for you to fathom.
    It's a heck of a lot more than a 'regional conflict', isn't it? It has widespread effects on global geopolitics.
    It's a regional conflict. The Israel/Palestine conflict had/has widespread effects on global geopolitics but NATO stayed out of that one.
  • Options
    algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 10,903
    Cookie said:


    Leon said:

    ON topic.

    PB - should I walk up the Long Mynd?

    Everyone here goes on about it

    Yes, do.

    Brown Clee is also nice (and a county top) and offers quite surprisingly expansive views.

    Clunton and Clunbury,
    Clungunford and Clun,
    Are the quietest places
    Under the sun.
  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,646

    On topic, on Sunday I will also be doing a piece on why I think a Labour majority is unlikely.

    Real view or a devils advocate?
  • Options
    MattWMattW Posts: 19,181
    Hmmm. Catching up on PMQ.

    AFAICS Sunak sounds like Rodney Trotter so far.
  • Options
    kinabalu said:

    On topic, on Sunday I will also be doing a piece on why I think a Labour majority is unlikely.

    Real view or a devils advocate?
    Real view based on real numbers.
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,703

    "Romania confirms Russian drone debris fell on its territory
    ‘I confirm that pieces were found that could be a drone,’ says Romanian defense minister."

    https://www.politico.eu/article/romania-confirms-russia-drone-debris-fell-on-its-territory-ukraine-war/

    What do you think should happen next.
  • Options
    algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 10,903

    On topic, on Sunday I will also be doing a piece on why I think a Labour majority is unlikely.

    FWIW, as between Lab majority (326 seats) and Lab government without a majority it's about even money. What probability to put on any other outcome is uncertain but low.
  • Options
    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Having been a optimist on the war in Ukraine I am increasingly feeling pessimistic now. We don't know how the counter offensive will finally play out, a major breakthrough remains possible but the west appears to be losing interest and the Russian population seems in no mind to do anything about it.

    Let me start with the attack on the grain in Reni. It is unclear whether any missiles or drones landed on Nato territory, the Ukrainians claim they did and there seems to be little attempt to geolocate etc to get to the bottom of it. No surprise as we saw something similar with Poland last year. Why does Putin feel emboldened to take such a risk anyway right on a Nato border? We are talking about grain being sent to feed some of the world's poorest people. What is to stop Romanian air defence from shooting down missiles near their border with Ukraine. I'm sure the Ukrainians would not object. But even this is too much of an escalation for Nato. All they would be doing is neutralising Russian missiles but no, this would bring Nato into direct conflict with Russia and that cannot be allowed. It beats me as to why there isn't more anger towards Russia from the global south about this but there you go. The Saudis cut oil production which should help Russia pay the bills for that much longer.

    Meanwhile the Ukrainian economy suffers because of the difficulty exporting through the Black Sea as they're being held hostage by the Russian Navy. Never mind that the Russian navy is nothing special and has fewer ships in the region than Turkey alone. That once you get to the Romanian border you are in entirely Nato waters. The narrative is all about whether Putin will extend the grain deal. He is the agent in all this. It's a matter of his beneficence. Why? Because Nato has no backbone. As the old saying goes it's not the size of the dog in the fight but the size of the fight in the dog. Putin might have misjudged many things but he saw the cowardice of Nato all too clearly.

    Anthony Blinken is back in Kyiv meeting a dog. Still no sign of ATACMS. Still no attempt to get control of Black Sea shipping. F16s will arrive sometime before Godot. Taurus missiles? More tanks? Perhaps it is time for major western leaders to fess up. What is it they are afraid of?

    They are afraid of WWIII starting on account of a regional conflict.

    Which bit of that is so hard for you to fathom.
    It's a heck of a lot more than a 'regional conflict', isn't it? It has widespread effects on global geopolitics.
    It's a regional conflict. The Israel/Palestine conflict had/has widespread effects on global geopolitics but NATO stayed out of that one.
    LOL. No. Nowhere near, and that's a rather crass comparison. The Israel/Palestine conflict is not exactly as hot, with hundreds of thousands of deaths in the last eighteen months, thousands of armoured vehicles destroyed, territory of a sovereign independent nation invaded, power and other threats against western and NATO countries, and with the belligerent nation being the direct descendent of the very enemy NATO was set up to counter.

    So yeah, aside from all of that, it's a *great* comparison...
  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,646

    kinabalu said:

    On topic, on Sunday I will also be doing a piece on why I think a Labour majority is unlikely.

    Real view or a devils advocate?
    Real view based on real numbers.
    I look forward to it then. See if you can shake my (opposite) view.
  • Options
    I don’t think I would give him the benefit of the doubt.


  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,612
    edited September 2023
    TOPPING said:

    Having been a optimist on the war in Ukraine I am increasingly feeling pessimistic now. We don't know how the counter offensive will finally play out, a major breakthrough remains possible but the west appears to be losing interest and the Russian population seems in no mind to do anything about it.

    Let me start with the attack on the grain in Reni. It is unclear whether any missiles or drones landed on Nato territory, the Ukrainians claim they did and there seems to be little attempt to geolocate etc to get to the bottom of it. No surprise as we saw something similar with Poland last year. Why does Putin feel emboldened to take such a risk anyway right on a Nato border? We are talking about grain being sent to feed some of the world's poorest people. What is to stop Romanian air defence from shooting down missiles near their border with Ukraine. I'm sure the Ukrainians would not object. But even this is too much of an escalation for Nato. All they would be doing is neutralising Russian missiles but no, this would bring Nato into direct conflict with Russia and that cannot be allowed. It beats me as to why there isn't more anger towards Russia from the global south about this but there you go. The Saudis cut oil production which should help Russia pay the bills for that much longer.

    Meanwhile the Ukrainian economy suffers because of the difficulty exporting through the Black Sea as they're being held hostage by the Russian Navy. Never mind that the Russian navy is nothing special and has fewer ships in the region than Turkey alone. That once you get to the Romanian border you are in entirely Nato waters. The narrative is all about whether Putin will extend the grain deal. He is the agent in all this. It's a matter of his beneficence. Why? Because Nato has no backbone. As the old saying goes it's not the size of the dog in the fight but the size of the fight in the dog. Putin might have misjudged many things but he saw the cowardice of Nato all too clearly.

    Anthony Blinken is back in Kyiv meeting a dog. Still no sign of ATACMS. Still no attempt to get control of Black Sea shipping. F16s will arrive sometime before Godot. Taurus missiles? More tanks? Perhaps it is time for major western leaders to fess up. What is it they are afraid of?

    They are afraid of WWIII starting on account of a regional conflict.

    Which bit of that is so hard for you to fathom.
    Do you think we were wrong to respond to Germany's invasion of Poland with a declaration of war (instigating WW2)?
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,703
    edited September 2023

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Having been a optimist on the war in Ukraine I am increasingly feeling pessimistic now. We don't know how the counter offensive will finally play out, a major breakthrough remains possible but the west appears to be losing interest and the Russian population seems in no mind to do anything about it.

    Let me start with the attack on the grain in Reni. It is unclear whether any missiles or drones landed on Nato territory, the Ukrainians claim they did and there seems to be little attempt to geolocate etc to get to the bottom of it. No surprise as we saw something similar with Poland last year. Why does Putin feel emboldened to take such a risk anyway right on a Nato border? We are talking about grain being sent to feed some of the world's poorest people. What is to stop Romanian air defence from shooting down missiles near their border with Ukraine. I'm sure the Ukrainians would not object. But even this is too much of an escalation for Nato. All they would be doing is neutralising Russian missiles but no, this would bring Nato into direct conflict with Russia and that cannot be allowed. It beats me as to why there isn't more anger towards Russia from the global south about this but there you go. The Saudis cut oil production which should help Russia pay the bills for that much longer.

    Meanwhile the Ukrainian economy suffers because of the difficulty exporting through the Black Sea as they're being held hostage by the Russian Navy. Never mind that the Russian navy is nothing special and has fewer ships in the region than Turkey alone. That once you get to the Romanian border you are in entirely Nato waters. The narrative is all about whether Putin will extend the grain deal. He is the agent in all this. It's a matter of his beneficence. Why? Because Nato has no backbone. As the old saying goes it's not the size of the dog in the fight but the size of the fight in the dog. Putin might have misjudged many things but he saw the cowardice of Nato all too clearly.

    Anthony Blinken is back in Kyiv meeting a dog. Still no sign of ATACMS. Still no attempt to get control of Black Sea shipping. F16s will arrive sometime before Godot. Taurus missiles? More tanks? Perhaps it is time for major western leaders to fess up. What is it they are afraid of?

    They are afraid of WWIII starting on account of a regional conflict.

    Which bit of that is so hard for you to fathom.
    It's a heck of a lot more than a 'regional conflict', isn't it? It has widespread effects on global geopolitics.
    It's a regional conflict. The Israel/Palestine conflict had/has widespread effects on global geopolitics but NATO stayed out of that one.
    LOL. No. Nowhere near, and that's a rather crass comparison. The Israel/Palestine conflict is not exactly as hot, with hundreds of thousands of deaths in the last eighteen months, thousands of armoured vehicles destroyed, territory of a sovereign independent nation invaded, power and other threats against western and NATO countries, and with the belligerent nation being the direct descendent of the very enemy NATO was set up to counter.

    So yeah, aside from all of that, it's a *great* comparison...
    Given that it was fought as a proxy war between the Cold War powers it is an extremely good comparison.

    As to numbers, sub-Saharan Africa says hi.
  • Options
    Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,222
    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Having been a optimist on the war in Ukraine I am increasingly feeling pessimistic now. We don't know how the counter offensive will finally play out, a major breakthrough remains possible but the west appears to be losing interest and the Russian population seems in no mind to do anything about it.

    Let me start with the attack on the grain in Reni. It is unclear whether any missiles or drones landed on Nato territory, the Ukrainians claim they did and there seems to be little attempt to geolocate etc to get to the bottom of it. No surprise as we saw something similar with Poland last year. Why does Putin feel emboldened to take such a risk anyway right on a Nato border? We are talking about grain being sent to feed some of the world's poorest people. What is to stop Romanian air defence from shooting down missiles near their border with Ukraine. I'm sure the Ukrainians would not object. But even this is too much of an escalation for Nato. All they would be doing is neutralising Russian missiles but no, this would bring Nato into direct conflict with Russia and that cannot be allowed. It beats me as to why there isn't more anger towards Russia from the global south about this but there you go. The Saudis cut oil production which should help Russia pay the bills for that much longer.

    Meanwhile the Ukrainian economy suffers because of the difficulty exporting through the Black Sea as they're being held hostage by the Russian Navy. Never mind that the Russian navy is nothing special and has fewer ships in the region than Turkey alone. That once you get to the Romanian border you are in entirely Nato waters. The narrative is all about whether Putin will extend the grain deal. He is the agent in all this. It's a matter of his beneficence. Why? Because Nato has no backbone. As the old saying goes it's not the size of the dog in the fight but the size of the fight in the dog. Putin might have misjudged many things but he saw the cowardice of Nato all too clearly.

    Anthony Blinken is back in Kyiv meeting a dog. Still no sign of ATACMS. Still no attempt to get control of Black Sea shipping. F16s will arrive sometime before Godot. Taurus missiles? More tanks? Perhaps it is time for major western leaders to fess up. What is it they are afraid of?

    They are afraid of WWIII starting on account of a regional conflict.

    Which bit of that is so hard for you to fathom.
    It's a heck of a lot more than a 'regional conflict', isn't it? It has widespread effects on global geopolitics.
    It's a regional conflict. The Israel/Palestine conflict had/has widespread effects on global geopolitics but NATO stayed out of that one.
    It's more like Iran/Iraq with worse weather.
  • Options
    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 27,643
    Having read this long article on the air traffic control problem, I still don't understand why it was necessary for the entire system to have been shut down.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/air-traffic-control-french-airline-blame-travel-chaos-2023-fsgrwqmg5
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 50,294
    After missing it originally, thanks to an unplanned trip abroad, have now finally booked tickets to see the Oppenheimer movie on Friday. Annoyed to have missed the IMAX screenings though.

    Doing a double-header with Sound of Freedom, rather than Barbie.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 48,323
    I have just spent 90 minutes in Tanners the Wine Merchant (ancient old Englishry incarnate: surprisingly fascinating) so now I have to choose between the Long Mynd or Stokesay castle

    I also just met the only person ever to casually use the word “apotropaic”. One of my favourite words. Might be slightly in love

  • Options
    glwglw Posts: 9,583
    Phil said:

    I would imagine that many of these names were coined decades ago, possibly before long haul international flights were even a thing. That different places happened to choose the same prefix for an airport that was 4000 miles away from another one with the same name wouldn’t have mattered to anyone - if you were in range to see a name being used then you knew exactly where they were talking about.

    Also, apparently these names are supposed to be pronounceable on the radio, which does limit the available keyspace.

    We’ve taken a legacy system that worked when it was devised & tried to force it to fit the needs of modern worldwide aviation. It’s not entirely surprising that there are some failure modes as a result of this.

    I totally get that it's a legacy issue, what I don't get is how we are now in 2023 when flight plans are being processed by computers and it has been allowed to persist.
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 115,093
    edited September 2023
    Andy_JS said:

    Having read this long article on the air traffic control problem, I still don't understand why it was necessary for the entire system to have been shut down.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/air-traffic-control-french-airline-blame-travel-chaos-2023-fsgrwqmg5

    Shit software.

    Sounds like a payroll software I was aware of 20 years ago that couldn’t cope with having someone having the same name as somebody else on the pay run.

    It assumed you had made a duplicate error.
  • Options
    EabhalEabhal Posts: 6,419
    Sandpit said:

    After missing it originally, thanks to an unplanned trip abroad, have now finally booked tickets to see the Oppenheimer movie on Friday. Annoyed to have missed the IMAX screenings though.

    Doing a double-header with Sound of Freedom, rather than Barbie.

    I found the IMAX version overwhelming. Much better in a standard screening.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 50,294
    Andy_JS said:

    Having read this long article on the air traffic control problem, I still don't understand why it was necessary for the entire system to have been shut down.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/air-traffic-control-french-airline-blame-travel-chaos-2023-fsgrwqmg5

    The system fails safe by design, requiring manual intervention rather than sending incorrect flight plans to controllers.

    The problem is that the air traffic system as a whole, and specifically slots to land at Heathrow and Gatwick, is right at capacity on a good day, so any minor problem screws hundreds of flights.
  • Options
    RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 27,665
    edited September 2023

    ho would make the better Chancellor?

    Who would make the better CotE
    Jeremy Hunt: 17% (+1)
    Rachel Reeves: 14% (-3)
    ---
    Don't know: 69% (+3)

    Via
    @YouGov
    , 21 Aug (+/- vs 24 Jul

    ho would make the better Chancellor?

    Who would make the better CotE
    Jeremy Hunt: 17% (+1)
    Rachel Reeves: 14% (-3)
    ---
    Don't know: 69% (+3)

    Via
    @YouGov
    , 21 Aug (+/- vs 24 Jul

    Austerity Reeves fans please explain!
    Your mate Stats for Lefties is pimping an old poll.

    Why not use the most recent poll from YouGov?

    Labour's Rachel Reeves has opened up a clear lead over the Conservatives' Jeremy Hunt when voters are asked who should be the next chancellor of the exchequer, according to an exclusive poll for Sky News.

    The Labour shadow chancellor is the choice of 21% of voters, according to YouGov, while Jeremy Hunt is judged to make the better chancellor by 14%.

    Ms Reeves and Mr Hunt have been broadly neck-and-neck in the polls since Mr Hunt was appointed chancellor last October, so this poll represents the first moment where the opposition have taken a meaningful lead.


    https://news.sky.com/story/voters-prefer-rachel-reeves-to-jeremy-hunt-for-chancellor-poll-shows-12955614?dcmp=snt-sf-twitter
    Because Stats for Lefties offer lies to reinforce the prejudices of the prejudiced?
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 50,294
    Eabhal said:

    Sandpit said:

    After missing it originally, thanks to an unplanned trip abroad, have now finally booked tickets to see the Oppenheimer movie on Friday. Annoyed to have missed the IMAX screenings though.

    Doing a double-header with Sound of Freedom, rather than Barbie.

    I found the IMAX version overwhelming. Much better in a standard screening.
    But the director spent the time and money to film the whole thing on 70mm film, which must have been horrible in these days of digital cameras everywhere. I thought that I owed it to him, to see it as he intended.
  • Options
    AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 20,397
    Leon said:

    I have just spent 90 minutes in Tanners the Wine Merchant (ancient old Englishry incarnate: surprisingly fascinating) so now I have to choose between the Long Mynd or Stokesay castle

    I also just met the only person ever to casually use the word “apotropaic”. One of my favourite words. Might be slightly in love

    The Long Mynd is beyond beautiful. Recommended.
  • Options

    Andy_JS said:

    Having read this long article on the air traffic control problem, I still don't understand why it was necessary for the entire system to have been shut down.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/air-traffic-control-french-airline-blame-travel-chaos-2023-fsgrwqmg5

    Shit software.

    Sounds like a payroll software I was aware of 20 years ago that couldn’t cope with having someone having the same name as somebody else on the pay run.

    It assumed you had made a duplicate error.
    This appears to be much more of an unusual edge case, which is why it's only just happened after so many years.

    Edge and corner cases in software are real ****tards, and particularly when you have user inputs. When a edge/corner case throws up a conflict or situation that the software if not designed for, you have two choices: to try to muddle through, or to fail safe.

    In the case of the payroll software, the consequences of either muddling through or failing safely are just business ones. In the case of flight plans, it could have much more severe consequences.

    I haven't read the report yet though, so I might be talking out of my backside. Again... ;)
  • Options
    EabhalEabhal Posts: 6,419
    Sandpit said:

    Eabhal said:

    Sandpit said:

    After missing it originally, thanks to an unplanned trip abroad, have now finally booked tickets to see the Oppenheimer movie on Friday. Annoyed to have missed the IMAX screenings though.

    Doing a double-header with Sound of Freedom, rather than Barbie.

    I found the IMAX version overwhelming. Much better in a standard screening.
    But the director spent the time and money to film the whole thing on 70mm film, which must have been horrible in these days of digital cameras everywhere. I thought that I owed it to him, to see it as he intended.
    I love IMAX for Interstellar, Dune etc but didn't think it worked for Oppenheimer at all. My IMAX isn't "real" so perhaps that's the problem.
  • Options
    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Having been a optimist on the war in Ukraine I am increasingly feeling pessimistic now. We don't know how the counter offensive will finally play out, a major breakthrough remains possible but the west appears to be losing interest and the Russian population seems in no mind to do anything about it.

    Let me start with the attack on the grain in Reni. It is unclear whether any missiles or drones landed on Nato territory, the Ukrainians claim they did and there seems to be little attempt to geolocate etc to get to the bottom of it. No surprise as we saw something similar with Poland last year. Why does Putin feel emboldened to take such a risk anyway right on a Nato border? We are talking about grain being sent to feed some of the world's poorest people. What is to stop Romanian air defence from shooting down missiles near their border with Ukraine. I'm sure the Ukrainians would not object. But even this is too much of an escalation for Nato. All they would be doing is neutralising Russian missiles but no, this would bring Nato into direct conflict with Russia and that cannot be allowed. It beats me as to why there isn't more anger towards Russia from the global south about this but there you go. The Saudis cut oil production which should help Russia pay the bills for that much longer.

    Meanwhile the Ukrainian economy suffers because of the difficulty exporting through the Black Sea as they're being held hostage by the Russian Navy. Never mind that the Russian navy is nothing special and has fewer ships in the region than Turkey alone. That once you get to the Romanian border you are in entirely Nato waters. The narrative is all about whether Putin will extend the grain deal. He is the agent in all this. It's a matter of his beneficence. Why? Because Nato has no backbone. As the old saying goes it's not the size of the dog in the fight but the size of the fight in the dog. Putin might have misjudged many things but he saw the cowardice of Nato all too clearly.

    Anthony Blinken is back in Kyiv meeting a dog. Still no sign of ATACMS. Still no attempt to get control of Black Sea shipping. F16s will arrive sometime before Godot. Taurus missiles? More tanks? Perhaps it is time for major western leaders to fess up. What is it they are afraid of?

    They are afraid of WWIII starting on account of a regional conflict.

    Which bit of that is so hard for you to fathom.
    It's a heck of a lot more than a 'regional conflict', isn't it? It has widespread effects on global geopolitics.
    It's a regional conflict. The Israel/Palestine conflict had/has widespread effects on global geopolitics but NATO stayed out of that one.
    LOL. No. Nowhere near, and that's a rather crass comparison. The Israel/Palestine conflict is not exactly as hot, with hundreds of thousands of deaths in the last eighteen months, thousands of armoured vehicles destroyed, territory of a sovereign independent nation invaded, power and other threats against western and NATO countries, and with the belligerent nation being the direct descendent of the very enemy NATO was set up to counter.

    So yeah, aside from all of that, it's a *great* comparison...
    Given that it was fought as a proxy war between the Cold War powers it is an extremely good comparison.

    As to numbers, sub-Saharan Africa says hi.
    You haven't actually addressed my points, have you? Those factors make it a heck of a lot more than just a 'regional conflict'; in fact the concern of it spreading and becoming WWIII that you state is exactly because it is so much more than a 'regional conflict'.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 50,294

    Andy_JS said:

    Having read this long article on the air traffic control problem, I still don't understand why it was necessary for the entire system to have been shut down.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/air-traffic-control-french-airline-blame-travel-chaos-2023-fsgrwqmg5

    Shit software.

    Sounds like a payroll software I was aware of 20 years ago that couldn’t cope with having someone having the same name as somebody else on the pay run.

    It assumed you had made a duplicate error.
    It’s more like a duplicate NI number issue, than a duplicate name issue. In fact, a duplicate NI number issue is at least one order of magnitude less likely then this specific error.
  • Options
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    On topic, on Sunday I will also be doing a piece on why I think a Labour majority is unlikely.

    Real view or a devils advocate?
    Real view based on real numbers.
    I look forward to it then. See if you can shake my (opposite) view.
    Your worried though aren't you? You are worried that when the electorate collectively looks at Labour they realise that the chances of "things can only get better" under Labour are a ridiculous pipedream. It is about as possible as SKS ever becoming unboring.

    Labour always fucks the economy because they splurge money at the public sector that fails to improve it, whilst simultaneously stymying growth in the productive sector through increased taxation and unnecessary regulation. It was forever thus. A lot of the population know this. If there is such a thing as the wisdom of the crowds, Labour will get no overall control and hold office for about 4 years while the Tories regroup and cleanse themselves of the Boris Johnson scurvy.
  • Options
    eekeek Posts: 25,482
    Sandpit said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Having read this long article on the air traffic control problem, I still don't understand why it was necessary for the entire system to have been shut down.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/air-traffic-control-french-airline-blame-travel-chaos-2023-fsgrwqmg5

    Shit software.

    Sounds like a payroll software I was aware of 20 years ago that couldn’t cope with having someone having the same name as somebody else on the pay run.

    It assumed you had made a duplicate error.
    It’s more like a duplicate NI number issue, than a duplicate name issue. In fact, a duplicate NI number issue is at least one order of magnitude less likely then this specific error.
    within DWP that's true, within payroll software a duplicate NI number is surprisingly common for multiple reasons, for both stupidity and fraud reasons...
  • Options
    When will the government act on this?

    https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/uk-news/mum-left-pouring-blood-after-27661650

    Mum left 'pouring with blood' after sacrificing her arms to protect daughter from 'aggressive' bully XL dog
  • Options
    pm215pm215 Posts: 958

    Andy_JS said:

    Having read this long article on the air traffic control problem, I still don't understand why it was necessary for the entire system to have been shut down.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/air-traffic-control-french-airline-blame-travel-chaos-2023-fsgrwqmg5

    Shit software.

    Sounds like a payroll software I was aware of 20 years ago that couldn’t cope with having someone having the same name as somebody else on the pay run.

    It assumed you had made a duplicate error.
    This appears to be much more of an unusual edge case, which is why it's only just happened after so many years.

    Edge and corner cases in software are real ****tards, and particularly when you have user inputs. When a edge/corner case throws up a conflict or situation that the software if not designed for, you have two choices: to try to muddle through, or to fail safe.

    In the case of the payroll software, the consequences of either muddling through or failing safely are just business ones. In the case of flight plans, it could have much more severe consequences.

    I haven't read the report yet though, so I might be talking out of my backside. Again... ;)
    It's interesting that the handling of "something went wrong processing this flight plan" is "stop entirely" rather than "reject the flight plan", but I'm not a safety critical software developer and hindsight is always 20:20.
  • Options
    EabhalEabhal Posts: 6,419

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Having been a optimist on the war in Ukraine I am increasingly feeling pessimistic now. We don't know how the counter offensive will finally play out, a major breakthrough remains possible but the west appears to be losing interest and the Russian population seems in no mind to do anything about it.

    Let me start with the attack on the grain in Reni. It is unclear whether any missiles or drones landed on Nato territory, the Ukrainians claim they did and there seems to be little attempt to geolocate etc to get to the bottom of it. No surprise as we saw something similar with Poland last year. Why does Putin feel emboldened to take such a risk anyway right on a Nato border? We are talking about grain being sent to feed some of the world's poorest people. What is to stop Romanian air defence from shooting down missiles near their border with Ukraine. I'm sure the Ukrainians would not object. But even this is too much of an escalation for Nato. All they would be doing is neutralising Russian missiles but no, this would bring Nato into direct conflict with Russia and that cannot be allowed. It beats me as to why there isn't more anger towards Russia from the global south about this but there you go. The Saudis cut oil production which should help Russia pay the bills for that much longer.

    Meanwhile the Ukrainian economy suffers because of the difficulty exporting through the Black Sea as they're being held hostage by the Russian Navy. Never mind that the Russian navy is nothing special and has fewer ships in the region than Turkey alone. That once you get to the Romanian border you are in entirely Nato waters. The narrative is all about whether Putin will extend the grain deal. He is the agent in all this. It's a matter of his beneficence. Why? Because Nato has no backbone. As the old saying goes it's not the size of the dog in the fight but the size of the fight in the dog. Putin might have misjudged many things but he saw the cowardice of Nato all too clearly.

    Anthony Blinken is back in Kyiv meeting a dog. Still no sign of ATACMS. Still no attempt to get control of Black Sea shipping. F16s will arrive sometime before Godot. Taurus missiles? More tanks? Perhaps it is time for major western leaders to fess up. What is it they are afraid of?

    They are afraid of WWIII starting on account of a regional conflict.

    Which bit of that is so hard for you to fathom.
    It's a heck of a lot more than a 'regional conflict', isn't it? It has widespread effects on global geopolitics.
    It's a regional conflict. The Israel/Palestine conflict had/has widespread effects on global geopolitics but NATO stayed out of that one.
    LOL. No. Nowhere near, and that's a rather crass comparison. The Israel/Palestine conflict is not exactly as hot, with hundreds of thousands of deaths in the last eighteen months, thousands of armoured vehicles destroyed, territory of a sovereign independent nation invaded, power and other threats against western and NATO countries, and with the belligerent nation being the direct descendent of the very enemy NATO was set up to counter.

    So yeah, aside from all of that, it's a *great* comparison...
    Given that it was fought as a proxy war between the Cold War powers it is an extremely good comparison.

    As to numbers, sub-Saharan Africa says hi.
    You haven't actually addressed my points, have you? Those factors make it a heck of a lot more than just a 'regional conflict'; in fact the concern of it spreading and becoming WWIII that you state is exactly because it is so much more than a 'regional conflict'.
    When the "region" is Europe it's a bit different to the Middle East or something. Krakow is just over the border.

    I think it boils down to whether you think Ukraine is a nascent European/EU/Western country or not. I think it is, and I also think it is in our interest to support and protect those countries that wish to emulate our way of doing things.

  • Options
    Phil said:

    glw said:

    FPT:

    Phil said:

    It sounds like an error path was hit that hadn’t been accounted for, so when the code threw an exception it halted altogether. As it should do in that case of course.

    The full report is here: https://publicapps.caa.co.uk/docs/33/NERL Major Incident Investigation Preliminary Report.pdf

    The actual fault was that the code as written could not find an exit point for a flightpath that was supposed to transit UK airspace. The software issue is that this error path wasn’t handled in the code & hence the entire system was brought down instead of that specific flight path being kicked out for manual processing.

    There’s then a secondary issue in that it seems clear from the report that 1st & 2nd line support were too busy rigidly following their system failure procedures to actually do any root cause analysis & by the time those had failed to work & the top line support had been brought in from the company that wrote the code in the first place it was too late to get everything sorted out before the 4 hour time horizon was broken.

    That in turn seems to be because the actual error was buried inside system logs that 1st & 2nd line support didn’t know how to access. Presumably there was an error log with the dump of the exception & stack at point of failure, which would have pointed to the root cause fairly quickly, but unless you know to look you’re going to be thrashing around in the dark.

    This bit is key.

    The ADEXP waypoints plan included two waypoints along its route that were geographically distinct but which have the same designator.

    Although there has been work by ICAO and other bodies to eradicate non-unique waypoint names there are duplicates around the world. In order to avoid confusion latest standards state that such identical designators should be geographically widely spaced. In this specific event, both of the waypoints were located outside of the UK, one towards the beginning of the route and one towards the end; approximately 4000 nautical miles apart.


    I'm genuinely amazed that such a thing is allowed. If you are processing a graph and there are duplicate IDs/names that is just asking for trouble. It seems to have been assumed that if they are far enough apart it won't cause a problem in practice, well clearly that's not correct.

    Here's the fix.

    9. The feasibility of working through the UK state with ICAO to remove the small number of duplicate waypoint names in the ICAO administered global dataset that relate to this incident.


    Yeah, get cracking on that, it's ridiculous that they aren't unique.
    They are 5 character (all caps) names.

    Collisions are pretty likely: head to https://opennav.com/search & search for PINTO. You’ll get three responses.

    Eliminating them requires two (or three) different ATC systems in countries that don’t necessarily get along to agree to the change. Repeat until you’ve eliminated all the duplicates in the system.
    Eliminating duplicate names is a project for the long term. Doing something more intelligent than crashing the whole system when a duplicates appear in the same flight plan should have been implemented already. How about rejecting that plan and escalating it for human review? (We might also wonder why the submitting airline did not raise its own electronic eyebrow.)
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 50,294
    pm215 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Having read this long article on the air traffic control problem, I still don't understand why it was necessary for the entire system to have been shut down.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/air-traffic-control-french-airline-blame-travel-chaos-2023-fsgrwqmg5

    Shit software.

    Sounds like a payroll software I was aware of 20 years ago that couldn’t cope with having someone having the same name as somebody else on the pay run.

    It assumed you had made a duplicate error.
    This appears to be much more of an unusual edge case, which is why it's only just happened after so many years.

    Edge and corner cases in software are real ****tards, and particularly when you have user inputs. When a edge/corner case throws up a conflict or situation that the software if not designed for, you have two choices: to try to muddle through, or to fail safe.

    In the case of the payroll software, the consequences of either muddling through or failing safely are just business ones. In the case of flight plans, it could have much more severe consequences.

    I haven't read the report yet though, so I might be talking out of my backside. Again... ;)
    It's interesting that the handling of "something went wrong processing this flight plan" is "stop entirely" rather than "reject the flight plan", but I'm not a safety critical software developer and hindsight is always 20:20.
    There’s a whole load of rules which reject the flight plan and send it to the manual system, hundreds per day do this, and there’s a human team which works through them.

    This particular flight plan crashed the system, because the inputs were totally unexpected by the system designers.
  • Options
    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,857
    edited September 2023

    Dura_Ace said:

    Cookie said:

    Cookie said:

    Really good chuckle on the last thread hearing from @Dura_Ace that One Foot In The Grave is edgy provocative drama.

    Lol.

    Bet he's got all of Keeping Up Appearances on VHS too.

    Unusually, I'm with Dura Ace on this one.

    Straight drama is in no way edgy or provactive. Your defences are already up. You know before it starts it's going to try to make you feel something. And real life is never as one dimensional as drama makes it look. Good sitcoms are amongst the highest of art forms; they are funny, but because they are funny, the not-straightforwardly-funny bits hit home that much more. I'd say the only times I've ever cried at fictional telly has been at sitcoms.
    And OFITG is a good sitcom. Among the top ten British sitcoms ever written.
    Also, the first series was bleak. As was the ending.
    Posted on the last thread:

    Darkness is at the heart of everything David Renwick ever did - see also Jonathon Creek (the later episodes in particular). In OFITG there is an obvious lack of children and grandchildren, and there are hint throughout the show of a trauma from a long time ago. I think its the contrast between Meldrews rants at the stuff that happens to him/them, but at heart its because he cares. See the episode where Margaret contemplates an affair.
    Yes, well put. I think if you can watch OFITG and not basically sympathise with Victor, you have missed the point.
    Margaret has a sort of inner resilience that means she'll be fine and probably a bit relieved when Victor dies. The whole arc of the show is basically Victor regressing into being the child they never had (or who died in infancy) and Margaret having to parent him. Hence his transient whims and lack of emotional regulation.
    Yes, I find that unspoken aspect of OFITG very touching. I don't know if Renwick has children himself or whether there is a bit of autobiography in there, but it is well handled.

    Terry and Sheila in the Detectorists are also a charming and often very moving take on the issue. Slightly more reciprocal in that case - both are becoming the child they lost, and both happy to support the other in that.

    Taking it to the political level, I can never forgive Andrea Leadsom for raising the matter in the 2016 Tory leadership election. I have no idea of the circumstances for the Mays, and don't want to, but it was an absolutely vile thing to do.
    Leadsom should have been more careful but it was really a case of entrapment by the journalist. She was obviously mortified about the way it was reported which is why she pulled out rather than let the issue linger over the vote.
    I bloody well hope Leadsom was mortified, although she didn't give that impression at the time and it had more of a flavour of backers pulling out and her being handed the brandy and a revolver.

    Penny Mordaunt was Leadsom's proposer in 2016, which I've always found a bit weird. Mind you, that's probably why Mordaunt will never get the top job - loads of things going for her, pretty sensible overall, but prone every so often to think carefully about an important decision before making a mindblowingly bad political judgment.
    Clearly your judgement of Leadsom's entire career based on a single interview is worth more than Mordaunt's judgement from working with her over the course of several years.

    Leadsom was (presumably is) a competent, unapologetic Brexit supporting politician. That's a combination that certain people can't bear, so they were only too delighted when she put her foot in her mouth. The result was the May premiership.
  • Options
    ChrisChris Posts: 11,253
    edited September 2023
    Perhaps this has already been posted, but this assessment of the Ukrainian advance near Verbove (actually from two days ago) has the Ukrainians at least in contaxt with the last continuous line of Russian defence in that area:
    https://twitter.com/emilkastehelmi/status/1698796521637007491
  • Options
    pm215pm215 Posts: 958

    Phil said:

    glw said:

    FPT:

    Phil said:

    It sounds like an error path was hit that hadn’t been accounted for, so when the code threw an exception it halted altogether. As it should do in that case of course.

    The full report is here: https://publicapps.caa.co.uk/docs/33/NERL Major Incident Investigation Preliminary Report.pdf

    The actual fault was that the code as written could not find an exit point for a flightpath that was supposed to transit UK airspace. The software issue is that this error path wasn’t handled in the code & hence the entire system was brought down instead of that specific flight path being kicked out for manual processing.

    There’s then a secondary issue in that it seems clear from the report that 1st & 2nd line support were too busy rigidly following their system failure procedures to actually do any root cause analysis & by the time those had failed to work & the top line support had been brought in from the company that wrote the code in the first place it was too late to get everything sorted out before the 4 hour time horizon was broken.

    That in turn seems to be because the actual error was buried inside system logs that 1st & 2nd line support didn’t know how to access. Presumably there was an error log with the dump of the exception & stack at point of failure, which would have pointed to the root cause fairly quickly, but unless you know to look you’re going to be thrashing around in the dark.

    This bit is key.

    The ADEXP waypoints plan included two waypoints along its route that were geographically distinct but which have the same designator.

    Although there has been work by ICAO and other bodies to eradicate non-unique waypoint names there are duplicates around the world. In order to avoid confusion latest standards state that such identical designators should be geographically widely spaced. In this specific event, both of the waypoints were located outside of the UK, one towards the beginning of the route and one towards the end; approximately 4000 nautical miles apart.


    I'm genuinely amazed that such a thing is allowed. If you are processing a graph and there are duplicate IDs/names that is just asking for trouble. It seems to have been assumed that if they are far enough apart it won't cause a problem in practice, well clearly that's not correct.

    Here's the fix.

    9. The feasibility of working through the UK state with ICAO to remove the small number of duplicate waypoint names in the ICAO administered global dataset that relate to this incident.


    Yeah, get cracking on that, it's ridiculous that they aren't unique.
    They are 5 character (all caps) names.

    Collisions are pretty likely: head to https://opennav.com/search & search for PINTO. You’ll get three responses.

    Eliminating them requires two (or three) different ATC systems in countries that don’t necessarily get along to agree to the change. Repeat until you’ve eliminated all the duplicates in the system.
    Eliminating duplicate names is a project for the long term. Doing something more intelligent than crashing the whole system when a duplicates appear in the same flight plan should have been implemented already. How about rejecting that plan and escalating it for human review? (We might also wonder why the submitting airline did not raise its own electronic eyebrow.)
    The report says the bug was in a bit of software that's specific to UK air traffic control (much of the system seems to also be used elsewhere, but not that part), which is why it didn't make the euro side of ATC fall over.

    The report isn't clear, but it sounds like it might be a case where the code was written on the assumption of "this case cannot happen" rather than "this case could happen and means a badly formatted flight plan". If you knew it might happen (even in error) you would write the code to reject it; but the things you assume to be true that turn out not to be true tend to result in the program falling over, hopefully fairly gracefully.

    All software has bugs; it's the nature of the beast.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 50,294
    Chris said:

    Perhaps this has already been posted, but this assessment of the Ukrainian advance near Verbove (actually from two days ago) has the Ukrainians at least in contaxt with the last continuous line of Russian defence in that area:
    https://twitter.com/emilkastehelmi/status/1698796521637007491

    Yes, they’re getting closer to being able to cut off the railway line to Crimea.
  • Options

    Andy_JS said:

    Having read this long article on the air traffic control problem, I still don't understand why it was necessary for the entire system to have been shut down.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/air-traffic-control-french-airline-blame-travel-chaos-2023-fsgrwqmg5

    Shit software.

    Sounds like a payroll software I was aware of 20 years ago that couldn’t cope with having someone having the same name as somebody else on the pay run.

    It assumed you had made a duplicate error.
    Though it seems in this case it didn't assume there was a duplicate error, it recognised that there was a duplicate error.

    Maybe it could handle error handling better, but the fact that it recognised there was an error and took action accordingly doesn't seem to have been a failure.
  • Options

    Phil said:

    glw said:

    FPT:

    Phil said:

    It sounds like an error path was hit that hadn’t been accounted for, so when the code threw an exception it halted altogether. As it should do in that case of course.

    The full report is here: https://publicapps.caa.co.uk/docs/33/NERL Major Incident Investigation Preliminary Report.pdf

    The actual fault was that the code as written could not find an exit point for a flightpath that was supposed to transit UK airspace. The software issue is that this error path wasn’t handled in the code & hence the entire system was brought down instead of that specific flight path being kicked out for manual processing.

    There’s then a secondary issue in that it seems clear from the report that 1st & 2nd line support were too busy rigidly following their system failure procedures to actually do any root cause analysis & by the time those had failed to work & the top line support had been brought in from the company that wrote the code in the first place it was too late to get everything sorted out before the 4 hour time horizon was broken.

    That in turn seems to be because the actual error was buried inside system logs that 1st & 2nd line support didn’t know how to access. Presumably there was an error log with the dump of the exception & stack at point of failure, which would have pointed to the root cause fairly quickly, but unless you know to look you’re going to be thrashing around in the dark.

    This bit is key.

    The ADEXP waypoints plan included two waypoints along its route that were geographically distinct but which have the same designator.

    Although there has been work by ICAO and other bodies to eradicate non-unique waypoint names there are duplicates around the world. In order to avoid confusion latest standards state that such identical designators should be geographically widely spaced. In this specific event, both of the waypoints were located outside of the UK, one towards the beginning of the route and one towards the end; approximately 4000 nautical miles apart.


    I'm genuinely amazed that such a thing is allowed. If you are processing a graph and there are duplicate IDs/names that is just asking for trouble. It seems to have been assumed that if they are far enough apart it won't cause a problem in practice, well clearly that's not correct.

    Here's the fix.

    9. The feasibility of working through the UK state with ICAO to remove the small number of duplicate waypoint names in the ICAO administered global dataset that relate to this incident.


    Yeah, get cracking on that, it's ridiculous that they aren't unique.
    They are 5 character (all caps) names.

    Collisions are pretty likely: head to https://opennav.com/search & search for PINTO. You’ll get three responses.

    Eliminating them requires two (or three) different ATC systems in countries that don’t necessarily get along to agree to the change. Repeat until you’ve eliminated all the duplicates in the system.
    Eliminating duplicate names is a project for the long term. Doing something more intelligent than crashing the whole system when a duplicates appear in the same flight plan should have been implemented already. How about rejecting that plan and escalating it for human review? (We might also wonder why the submitting airline did not raise its own electronic eyebrow.)
    My *guess* is that the other systems *should* catch this and disallow it from being submitted - otherwise we may have seen many more such cases. But at the end of the day, there has to be something low-down in the system, after user input has been entered from whatever source(s), that will detect such conflicts and throw a metaphorical exception.

    This will almost certainly have been yet another swiss-cheese failure: many processes, perhaps run by different organisations, allowed the data to get through to being input into the traffic control system. Those processes need fixing - and as people say, having unique location IDs would be a great start. But even then you'd want the bottom level of the software to detect fallacious or corrupt data from being sent to the controllers.

    The question is what should happen when that system gets such a corrupt case? It cannot allow it to go through, and the system is very time-critical; you may not be able to wait a few hours for someone outside the organisation to fix the error.

    That can be a devil of a problem.
  • Options
    EabhalEabhal Posts: 6,419
    Talking helicopters, there is a Network Rail one hovering over Edinburgh Waverley at the moment and it's very irritating.
This discussion has been closed.