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And now help for Sunak from the hard left – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,216
edited September 2023 in General
And now help for Sunak from the hard left – politicalbetting.com

In a rare moment of honesty, Putin's stooges inside the left explain exactly what they are trying to achieve…a Tory victory. ?? pic.twitter.com/LNFADAbxP7

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,085
    edited September 2023
    Good morning. I'm a little confused by this. It's sarcastic from Mike, yes? If the hard left / Putin's stooges are trying to stop Starmer becoming PM then that boosts Starmer. It shows him to be a centrist and the centre is where power is won in Britain with the sole atypical anomaly of 2019.

    To wit, Mike's great fallacy about the 2019 missing tories is that the 2019 election was anomalous. It was a 'Get Brexit Done' vote to unblock the remainer parliament's stalling of the Brexit vote, which left even people like me exasperated. Boris galvanised a demographic that simply cannot be lazily transposed to normal General Election psephology. That he was up against an unelectable hard left anti-semitic neo Trotskyite reinforces this point.

    Go back to the last proper General Election in Britain: June, which was a hung parliament. That's your benchmark for what happens next.

    @MikeSmithson
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,085
    That should read 'Go back to the last proper General Election in Britain: June 2017, which was a hung parliament.'
  • It seems an odd way to celebrate the first anniversary of Liz Truss, Prime Minister.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 49,140

    It seems an odd way to celebrate the first anniversary of Liz Truss, Prime Minister.

    The Queen over the water. @DougSeal will be recognised as tipster of the decade.
  • Trots are the worst.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,226
    Interesting possible way if addressing the AI deepfake problem (and a lot of other things).
    https://twitter.com/labenz/status/1699260122755662069
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,769
    Do we know where @bjo was at the time?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,226
    Putin cannot be trusted to conduct any peace talks, Ukraine's Foreign Minister, Dmytro Kuleba, says

    According to Dmytro Kuleba, Vladimir Putin cannot be trusted because even when he gives his word, there is no guarantee that he will not break it.

    https://twitter.com/EuromaidanPress/status/1699243519733637538

    And it's not like doing a deal with a western nation, where the importance of reliable institutions means it's likely deals will be adhered to, irrespective of the whims of whoever is the current president of PM.

    Putin's whims are all we have to go on.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,910
    Patriots ensuring another perfect five years of patriotic Tory Government. Trebles all 'round.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,769
    edited September 2023
    Nigelb said:

    Putin cannot be trusted to conduct any peace talks, Ukraine's Foreign Minister, Dmytro Kuleba, says

    According to Dmytro Kuleba, Vladimir Putin cannot be trusted because even when he gives his word, there is no guarantee that he will not break it.

    https://twitter.com/EuromaidanPress/status/1699243519733637538

    And it's not like doing a deal with a western nation, where the importance of reliable institutions means it's likely deals will be adhered to, irrespective of the whims of whoever is the current president of PM.

    Putin's whims are all we have to go on.

    Kuleba is being generous. There's an absolute guarantee Putin will break his word.

    He's more treacherous than Tsar Nicholas II.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,226
    Why Ukraine’s defense minister Reznikov resigned and who is tapped to replace him
    https://euromaidanpress.com/2023/09/06/why-ukraines-defense-minister-reznikov-resigned-and-who-is-tapped-to-replace-him/
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,138

    Trots are the worst.

    There are worse things than Trots.

    The most amusing thing about most self described Trots I’ve encountered is their admiration for Stalin, the Soviet Union and modern Semi-Demi-Fascist Russia. Haven’t they heard of this Trotsky chap?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,138
    Foxy said:

    Being heckled by the Trots is probably a net benefit to Starmer as it shows how much Starmer has changed the party. It reassures the centrist floating voters.

    All the successful Labour leaders have had vocal critics on the far left.
    Yes. If Piers Corbyn doesn’t hate you, you are doing something wrong.
  • Heathener said:

    Foxy said:

    Being heckled by the Trots is probably a net benefit to Starmer as it shows how much Starmer has changed the party. It reassures the centrist floating voters.

    All the successful Labour leaders have had vocal critics on the far left.
    Indeed.

    Neil Kinnock started it with that famous, and brave, speech that prompted the Eric Heffer walk out and Derek 'Trot' Hatton's heckling.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9d7ahKWcsM

    Kinnock was never the greatest leader tbh but that was one of the greatest political speeches in British politics from the last 50 years. It's fun to watch again. It also really fired the starting gun on New Labour.

    And then there was 'call me Tony.' Many on the Hard Left preferred a tory victory to Blair. We can but marvel at how warped their perspective is.

    For the moment this plays perfectly into Keir Starmer's hands. It shows Britain that he is ready to govern.

    Further down the line, when things begin to go wrong for Starmer's Labour, the wolf pack will start biting at his ankles but for now they are left to howling beyond the camp fire's safe circle of light.
    "A Labour council" - great stuff. I remember watching that as a political nerdy kid back in 1985. Still electrifying to watch. Kinnock was a brilliant speaker and played a huge role in rescuing Labour from irrelevance after 1983.
  • Trots are the worst.

    There are worse things than Trots.

    The most amusing thing about most self described Trots I’ve encountered is their admiration for Stalin, the Soviet Union and modern Semi-Demi-Fascist Russia. Haven’t they heard of this Trotsky chap?
    Maybe I've led a sheltered life but I'm not sure I've come across worse things than Trots.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,138

    Trots are the worst.

    There are worse things than Trots.

    The most amusing thing about most self described Trots I’ve encountered is their admiration for Stalin, the Soviet Union and modern Semi-Demi-Fascist Russia. Haven’t they heard of this Trotsky chap?
    Maybe I've led a sheltered life but I'm not sure I've come across worse things than Trots.
    Hard core MAGA?
  • MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 2,808
    I have a degree of sympathy with Heathener’s view that 2019 is a false baseline for GE24.

    However I do think GE19 reinforced some electoral shifts that were already happening. That’s what makes GE24 such a difficult election to call. I think there will be some tremendous value in some individual seat markets for those who have been paying attention to these shifts.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,155
    edited September 2023
    Foxy said:

    It seems an odd way to celebrate the first anniversary of Liz Truss, Prime Minister.

    The Queen over the water. @DougSeal will be recognised as tipster of the decade.
    Yep, the only way that tip could be beaten is if aliens land on earth and announce that they’ve been finding their way about using what3words.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,155

    Trots are the worst.

    There are worse things than Trots.

    The most amusing thing about most self described Trots I’ve encountered is their admiration for Stalin, the Soviet Union and modern Semi-Demi-Fascist Russia. Haven’t they heard of this Trotsky chap?
    Maybe I've led a sheltered life but I'm not sure I've come across worse things than Trots.
    Especially if you get them somewhere like India.
  • Its a glorious idea. Stop Starmer becoming Prime Minister so that we can keep Sunak. The crank left are hardened Tories - unless they can have True Socialism they want the Tories.

    Remember that Jezbollah voted with the Tories against the Labour government literally hundreds and hundreds of times.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 49,140
    IanB2 said:

    Trots are the worst.

    There are worse things than Trots.

    The most amusing thing about most self described Trots I’ve encountered is their admiration for Stalin, the Soviet Union and modern Semi-Demi-Fascist Russia. Haven’t they heard of this Trotsky chap?
    Maybe I've led a sheltered life but I'm not sure I've come across worse things than Trots.
    Especially if you get them somewhere like India.
    Bharat surely?
  • Heathener said:

    Foxy said:

    Being heckled by the Trots is probably a net benefit to Starmer as it shows how much Starmer has changed the party. It reassures the centrist floating voters.

    All the successful Labour leaders have had vocal critics on the far left.
    Indeed.

    Neil Kinnock started it with that famous, and brave, speech that prompted the Eric Heffer walk out and Derek 'Trot' Hatton's heckling.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9d7ahKWcsM

    Kinnock was never the greatest leader tbh but that was one of the greatest political speeches in British politics from the last 50 years. It's fun to watch again. It also really fired the starting gun on New Labour.

    And then there was 'call me Tony.' Many on the Hard Left preferred a tory victory to Blair. We can but marvel at how warped their perspective is.

    For the moment this plays perfectly into Keir Starmer's hands. It shows Britain that he is ready to govern.

    Further down the line, when things begin to go wrong for Starmer's Labour, the wolf pack will start biting at his ankles but for now they are left to howling beyond the camp fire's safe circle of light.
    Good morning

    I have no doubt that the Corbynites are anymore relevant than the ERG and will not have any impact on Starmer election prospects
  • Its a glorious idea. Stop Starmer becoming Prime Minister so that we can keep Sunak. The crank left are hardened Tories - unless they can have True Socialism they want the Tories.

    Remember that Jezbollah voted with the Tories against the Labour government literally hundreds and hundreds of times.

    Genuinely does anyone think they are relevant?
  • Trots are the worst.

    There are worse things than Trots.

    The most amusing thing about most self described Trots I’ve encountered is their admiration for Stalin, the Soviet Union and modern Semi-Demi-Fascist Russia. Haven’t they heard of this Trotsky chap?
    Maybe I've led a sheltered life but I'm not sure I've come across worse things than Trots.
    Hard core MAGA?
    Yeah they've got worse overseas. Hardcore racist BNP types are worse here too I suppose but I've never really encountered one of those in the flesh, I've lived a sheltered life. My sister's ex once punched a prominent British fascist (I believe the one related to someone on here) in the face during some fracas. He is quite pugnacious literally and metaphorically and has battled fascists, Trots and the Met at various times.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 49,140

    Heathener said:

    Foxy said:

    Being heckled by the Trots is probably a net benefit to Starmer as it shows how much Starmer has changed the party. It reassures the centrist floating voters.

    All the successful Labour leaders have had vocal critics on the far left.
    Indeed.

    Neil Kinnock started it with that famous, and brave, speech that prompted the Eric Heffer walk out and Derek 'Trot' Hatton's heckling.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9d7ahKWcsM

    Kinnock was never the greatest leader tbh but that was one of the greatest political speeches in British politics from the last 50 years. It's fun to watch again. It also really fired the starting gun on New Labour.

    And then there was 'call me Tony.' Many on the Hard Left preferred a tory victory to Blair. We can but marvel at how warped their perspective is.

    For the moment this plays perfectly into Keir Starmer's hands. It shows Britain that he is ready to govern.

    Further down the line, when things begin to go wrong for Starmer's Labour, the wolf pack will start biting at his ankles but for now they are left to howling beyond the camp fire's safe circle of light.
    Good morning

    I have no doubt that the Corbynites are anymore relevant than the ERG and will not have any impact on Starmer election prospects
    Well, the ERG are in government!
  • IanB2 said:

    Trots are the worst.

    There are worse things than Trots.

    The most amusing thing about most self described Trots I’ve encountered is their admiration for Stalin, the Soviet Union and modern Semi-Demi-Fascist Russia. Haven’t they heard of this Trotsky chap?
    Maybe I've led a sheltered life but I'm not sure I've come across worse things than Trots.
    Especially if you get them somewhere like India.
    Although…

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12484005/amp/Delta-flight-Atlanta-Barcelona-forced-turn-passenger-suffered-horrific-bout-diarrhea-underwent-five-hour-cleanup-operation-entire-carpet-needed-replaced.html

  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,138
    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    Putin cannot be trusted to conduct any peace talks, Ukraine's Foreign Minister, Dmytro Kuleba, says

    According to Dmytro Kuleba, Vladimir Putin cannot be trusted because even when he gives his word, there is no guarantee that he will not break it.

    https://twitter.com/EuromaidanPress/status/1699243519733637538

    And it's not like doing a deal with a western nation, where the importance of reliable institutions means it's likely deals will be adhered to, irrespective of the whims of whoever is the current president of PM.

    Putin's whims are all we have to go on.

    Kuleba is being generous. There's an absolute guarantee Putin will break his word.

    He's more treacherous than Tsar Nicholas II.
    As autocrats go, Tsar Nicholas II wasn’t especially bad. More vaguely useless. So a 4000% improvement over , say, the DfE leadership.

    He certainly didn’t yeet people out of windows for offending him.
  • Foxy said:

    Heathener said:

    Foxy said:

    Being heckled by the Trots is probably a net benefit to Starmer as it shows how much Starmer has changed the party. It reassures the centrist floating voters.

    All the successful Labour leaders have had vocal critics on the far left.
    Indeed.

    Neil Kinnock started it with that famous, and brave, speech that prompted the Eric Heffer walk out and Derek 'Trot' Hatton's heckling.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9d7ahKWcsM

    Kinnock was never the greatest leader tbh but that was one of the greatest political speeches in British politics from the last 50 years. It's fun to watch again. It also really fired the starting gun on New Labour.

    And then there was 'call me Tony.' Many on the Hard Left preferred a tory victory to Blair. We can but marvel at how warped their perspective is.

    For the moment this plays perfectly into Keir Starmer's hands. It shows Britain that he is ready to govern.

    Further down the line, when things begin to go wrong for Starmer's Labour, the wolf pack will start biting at his ankles but for now they are left to howling beyond the camp fire's safe circle of light.
    Good morning

    I have no doubt that the Corbynites are anymore relevant than the ERG and will not have any impact on Starmer election prospects
    Well, the ERG are in government!
    Not for much longer
  • Its a glorious idea. Stop Starmer becoming Prime Minister so that we can keep Sunak. The crank left are hardened Tories - unless they can have True Socialism they want the Tories.

    Remember that Jezbollah voted with the Tories against the Labour government literally hundreds and hundreds of times.

    Genuinely does anyone think they are relevant?
    Well not any more. But a few years ago...?

    We've seen this played out on this very forum where the crank left endlessly agitate against the true enemy - the Labour Party. As was always the case with the exception of the brief rising of The Jeremy.

    For all that the loony left decry Blair and Brown and screech that they were the same as the Tories, that isn't true. Not enough New Labour stuff made big and long-lasting improvements to society, but their list of achievements was lengthy. That the loonies just screech no demonstrates that their agenda basically is self-aggrandisement rather than actual care for other people.

    Which is the exact same trait that Tories have. Me me me, and fuck you.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,910
    ...

    Heathener said:

    Foxy said:

    Being heckled by the Trots is probably a net benefit to Starmer as it shows how much Starmer has changed the party. It reassures the centrist floating voters.

    All the successful Labour leaders have had vocal critics on the far left.
    Indeed.

    Neil Kinnock started it with that famous, and brave, speech that prompted the Eric Heffer walk out and Derek 'Trot' Hatton's heckling.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9d7ahKWcsM

    Kinnock was never the greatest leader tbh but that was one of the greatest political speeches in British politics from the last 50 years. It's fun to watch again. It also really fired the starting gun on New Labour.

    And then there was 'call me Tony.' Many on the Hard Left preferred a tory victory to Blair. We can but marvel at how warped their perspective is.

    For the moment this plays perfectly into Keir Starmer's hands. It shows Britain that he is ready to govern.

    Further down the line, when things begin to go wrong for Starmer's Labour, the wolf pack will start biting at his ankles but for now they are left to howling beyond the camp fire's safe circle of light.
    Good morning

    I have no doubt that the Corbynites are anymore relevant than the ERG and will not have any impact on Starmer election prospects
    If they deliver you another Sunak Government, surely they are worth their weight in gold. Corbyn was certainly more loyal to the Parliamentary Conservative Party than Johnson was prior to July 2019.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,587
    The hard left, the greatest friends the Tories have ever had.

    Won't be enough this time.
  • ...

    Heathener said:

    Foxy said:

    Being heckled by the Trots is probably a net benefit to Starmer as it shows how much Starmer has changed the party. It reassures the centrist floating voters.

    All the successful Labour leaders have had vocal critics on the far left.
    Indeed.

    Neil Kinnock started it with that famous, and brave, speech that prompted the Eric Heffer walk out and Derek 'Trot' Hatton's heckling.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9d7ahKWcsM

    Kinnock was never the greatest leader tbh but that was one of the greatest political speeches in British politics from the last 50 years. It's fun to watch again. It also really fired the starting gun on New Labour.

    And then there was 'call me Tony.' Many on the Hard Left preferred a tory victory to Blair. We can but marvel at how warped their perspective is.

    For the moment this plays perfectly into Keir Starmer's hands. It shows Britain that he is ready to govern.

    Further down the line, when things begin to go wrong for Starmer's Labour, the wolf pack will start biting at his ankles but for now they are left to howling beyond the camp fire's safe circle of light.
    Good morning

    I have no doubt that the Corbynites are anymore relevant than the ERG and will not have any impact on Starmer election prospects
    If they deliver you another Sunak Government, surely they are worth their weight in gold. Corbyn was certainly more loyal to the Parliamentary Conservative Party than Johnson was prior to July 2019.
    They will not do that
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,364

    IanB2 said:

    Trots are the worst.

    There are worse things than Trots.

    The most amusing thing about most self described Trots I’ve encountered is their admiration for Stalin, the Soviet Union and modern Semi-Demi-Fascist Russia. Haven’t they heard of this Trotsky chap?
    Maybe I've led a sheltered life but I'm not sure I've come across worse things than Trots.
    Especially if you get them somewhere like India.
    Although…

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12484005/amp/Delta-flight-Atlanta-Barcelona-forced-turn-passenger-suffered-horrific-bout-diarrhea-underwent-five-hour-cleanup-operation-entire-carpet-needed-replaced.html

    There's another story on the DM website with unspeakable photos. Think brown carpet in the aisle.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,916
    Paul Mason's political history gets ever more interesting.
  • GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,860

    Trots are the worst.

    There are worse things than Trots.

    The most amusing thing about most self described Trots I’ve encountered is their admiration for Stalin, the Soviet Union and modern Semi-Demi-Fascist Russia. Haven’t they heard of this Trotsky chap?
    Maybe I've led a sheltered life but I'm not sure I've come across worse things than Trots.
    Hard core MAGA?
    Yeah they've got worse overseas. Hardcore racist BNP types are worse here too I suppose but I've never really encountered one of those in the flesh, I've lived a sheltered life. My sister's ex once punched a prominent British fascist (I believe the one related to someone on here) in the face during some fracas. He is quite pugnacious literally and metaphorically and has battled fascists, Trots and the Met at various times.
    I've known a few NF and BNP types over the years. They are worse than trots.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,568
    edited September 2023

    Heathener said:

    Foxy said:

    Being heckled by the Trots is probably a net benefit to Starmer as it shows how much Starmer has changed the party. It reassures the centrist floating voters.

    All the successful Labour leaders have had vocal critics on the far left.
    Indeed.

    Neil Kinnock started it with that famous, and brave, speech that prompted the Eric Heffer walk out and Derek 'Trot' Hatton's heckling.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9d7ahKWcsM

    Kinnock was never the greatest leader tbh but that was one of the greatest political speeches in British politics from the last 50 years. It's fun to watch again. It also really fired the starting gun on New Labour.

    And then there was 'call me Tony.' Many on the Hard Left preferred a tory victory to Blair. We can but marvel at how warped their perspective is.

    For the moment this plays perfectly into Keir Starmer's hands. It shows Britain that he is ready to govern.

    Further down the line, when things begin to go wrong for Starmer's Labour, the wolf pack will start biting at his ankles but for now they are left to howling beyond the camp fire's safe circle of light.
    Good morning

    I have no doubt that the Corbynites are anymore relevant than the ERG and will not have any impact on Starmer election prospects
    It's just the usual suspects like George Galloway (not left-wing Labour members). Full article here:

    https://www.morningstaronline.co.uk/article/b/prominent-left-wing-activists-will-launch-stop-starmer-campaign

    [Edit - sorry, I see point and link already made upthread]
  • I have a degree of sympathy with Heathener’s view that 2019 is a false baseline for GE24.

    However I do think GE19 reinforced some electoral shifts that were already happening. That’s what makes GE24 such a difficult election to call. I think there will be some tremendous value in some individual seat markets for those who have been paying attention to these shifts.

    Think this is spot on, I'm sure there will be areas that buck the trend, for example, the moron that is 30p Leanderthal, I'm convinced will be re elected, much to my dismay
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,364
    Specially for @JosiasJessop and @Malmesbury - the AAIB report is now out on the fatal helicopter accident at King Power Stadium, Leicester, in 2018.

    Extraordinary (to me, anyway) work on microanalysis and imaging, including microCT, of the tail rotor bearing and its seizure that was the primary cause of the accident. Also interesting that the AAIB contracted out some of this work. But I imagine some of it is specialist and needs seriously specialist kit.

    https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/64f73d429ee0f2000fb7bf1f/AAR_1-2023_G-VSKP_Final_Vol_1.pdf
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,932
    It seems the hard left hate Starmer even more than they hated Blair. After all Blair kept Corbyn and Tony Benn in the Labour Party while Starmer has kicked Corbyn out
  • Heathener said:

    That should read 'Go back to the last proper General Election in Britain: June 2017, which was a hung parliament.'

    Sadly real gamblers and bookies will tell you that the benchmark for betting purposes is the 2019 general election.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,932
    Foxy said:

    Heathener said:

    Foxy said:

    Being heckled by the Trots is probably a net benefit to Starmer as it shows how much Starmer has changed the party. It reassures the centrist floating voters.

    All the successful Labour leaders have had vocal critics on the far left.
    Indeed.

    Neil Kinnock started it with that famous, and brave, speech that prompted the Eric Heffer walk out and Derek 'Trot' Hatton's heckling.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9d7ahKWcsM

    Kinnock was never the greatest leader tbh but that was one of the greatest political speeches in British politics from the last 50 years. It's fun to watch again. It also really fired the starting gun on New Labour.

    And then there was 'call me Tony.' Many on the Hard Left preferred a tory victory to Blair. We can but marvel at how warped their perspective is.

    For the moment this plays perfectly into Keir Starmer's hands. It shows Britain that he is ready to govern.

    Further down the line, when things begin to go wrong for Starmer's Labour, the wolf pack will start biting at his ankles but for now they are left to howling beyond the camp fire's safe circle of light.
    Good morning

    I have no doubt that the Corbynites are anymore relevant than the ERG and will not have any impact on Starmer election prospects
    Well, the ERG are in government!
    Not all of them, Mogg and Francois aren't and Dorries wasn't
  • It's PPE all over again.


  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 5,352
    edited September 2023

    I have a degree of sympathy with Heathener’s view that 2019 is a false baseline for GE24.

    However I do think GE19 reinforced some electoral shifts that were already happening. That’s what makes GE24 such a difficult election to call. I think there will be some tremendous value in some individual seat markets for those who have been paying attention to these shifts.

    May's small list of new gains from Labour in
    2017 were very Red Wall indeed - in Middlesbrough, Stoke, Mansfield, Walsall and the small towns of Derbyshire NE. For all that campaign went wrong, May was still seen as sound on Brexit at that point.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 49,140
    Carnyx said:

    Specially for @JosiasJessop and @Malmesbury - the AAIB report is now out on the fatal helicopter accident at King Power Stadium, Leicester, in 2018.

    Extraordinary (to me, anyway) work on microanalysis and imaging, including microCT, of the tail rotor bearing and its seizure that was the primary cause of the accident. Also interesting that the AAIB contracted out some of this work. But I imagine some of it is specialist and needs seriously specialist kit.

    https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/64f73d429ee0f2000fb7bf1f/AAR_1-2023_G-VSKP_Final_Vol_1.pdf

    It seems 4 of 5 were alive after the crash, but trapped injured in the fire. Horrible.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/sep/06/helicopter-crash-leicester-stadium-tragic-accident-inspectors?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

    Some of the international involvement was related to manufacturers of the parts in question.
  • HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    Heathener said:

    Foxy said:

    Being heckled by the Trots is probably a net benefit to Starmer as it shows how much Starmer has changed the party. It reassures the centrist floating voters.

    All the successful Labour leaders have had vocal critics on the far left.
    Indeed.

    Neil Kinnock started it with that famous, and brave, speech that prompted the Eric Heffer walk out and Derek 'Trot' Hatton's heckling.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9d7ahKWcsM

    Kinnock was never the greatest leader tbh but that was one of the greatest political speeches in British politics from the last 50 years. It's fun to watch again. It also really fired the starting gun on New Labour.

    And then there was 'call me Tony.' Many on the Hard Left preferred a tory victory to Blair. We can but marvel at how warped their perspective is.

    For the moment this plays perfectly into Keir Starmer's hands. It shows Britain that he is ready to govern.

    Further down the line, when things begin to go wrong for Starmer's Labour, the wolf pack will start biting at his ankles but for now they are left to howling beyond the camp fire's safe circle of light.
    Good morning

    I have no doubt that the Corbynites are anymore relevant than the ERG and will not have any impact on Starmer election prospects
    Well, the ERG are in government!
    Not all of them, Mogg and Francois aren't and Dorries wasn't
    They were very recently. Fun spat in the House yesterday with the Moggster complaining about programmed debate time for the Levelling Up Bill and the new leader of the house Mordaunt had to point out that timings were set by Mogg himself when he was leader of the house.

    So you can't really distance this government from ERG loons when it was infested with them less than a year ago.
    That was so funny
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 49,140

    It's PPE all over again.


    Ever wonder why we don't have nice things?
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,684

    I have a degree of sympathy with Heathener’s view that 2019 is a false baseline for GE24.

    However I do think GE19 reinforced some electoral shifts that were already happening. That’s what makes GE24 such a difficult election to call. I think there will be some tremendous value in some individual seat markets for those who have been paying attention to these shifts.

    Yes, I think Heathener overstates the case for 2017 being the ‘true’ baseline. Every election starts with an incumbent (party, if not the same candidate). That has some effect. In addition there were people who voted Tory for the first time in 2019 (for a variety of reasons, not just Brexit). The decline of Labour in the red wall had been running for a while as demographics changed and mirrored the decline in Scotland. Scotland always voted Labour (for a decade or two at least) right up until they didn’t.

    You can make the case that 2019 was special, but in many ways 2017;was too. Many voted Corbyn without wanting a Corbyn PM.

    I still think Labour are nailed on, but the swing will rightly be shown against the last election, 2019.
  • .

    It's PPE all over again.


    Is it any wonder that infrastructure costs so much in this country but is always shite, late and over budget? You've got to pay the middleman/woman a couple of mil first. It's a nightmarish Tory friends and family scheme.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 13,215

    Trots are the worst.

    There are worse things than Trots.

    The most amusing thing about most self described Trots I’ve encountered is their admiration for Stalin, the Soviet Union and modern Semi-Demi-Fascist Russia. Haven’t they heard of this Trotsky chap?
    Maybe I've led a sheltered life but I'm not sure I've come across worse things than Trots.
    Hard core MAGA?
    Yeah they've got worse overseas. Hardcore racist BNP types are worse here too I suppose but I've never really encountered one of those in the flesh, I've lived a sheltered life. My sister's ex once punched a prominent British fascist (I believe the one related to someone on here) in the face during some fracas. He is quite pugnacious literally and metaphorically and has battled fascists, Trots and the Met at various times.
    On the left surely the Stalinists are worse than the Trots. The trouble is a lot of far lefties in the UK who claim to be Trots are actual Stalinist tankies. They were during the cold war too. Galloway and Williamson are classic examples. Saluters of indefatigability.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 13,215

    .

    It's PPE all over again.


    Is it any wonder that infrastructure costs so much in this country but is always shite, late and over budget? You've got to pay the middleman/woman a couple of mil first. It's a nightmarish Tory friends and family scheme.
    The really frustrating thing about this is that there are so many larger multinationals here that really struggle to get heard at all by the government on policies that affect them massively - they complain of sitting in meetings with officials and just being broadcast at. Yet for a privileged few businesses, often smaller privately owned ones, there's a pin code for the key box on the back door of No.10.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,684

    .

    It's PPE all over again.


    Is it any wonder that infrastructure costs so much in this country but is always shite, late and over budget? You've got to pay the middleman/woman a couple of mil first. It's a nightmarish Tory friends and family scheme.
    Even on the front page ‘There is no suggestion of wrong doing’.

    People are allowed to be married to other people who have jobs.

  • I have a degree of sympathy with Heathener’s view that 2019 is a false baseline for GE24.

    However I do think GE19 reinforced some electoral shifts that were already happening. That’s what makes GE24 such a difficult election to call. I think there will be some tremendous value in some individual seat markets for those who have been paying attention to these shifts.

    Yes, I think Heathener overstates the case for 2017 being the ‘true’ baseline. Every election starts with an incumbent (party, if not the same candidate). That has some effect. In addition there were people who voted Tory for the first time in 2019 (for a variety of reasons, not just Brexit). The decline of Labour in the red wall had been running for a while as demographics changed and mirrored the decline in Scotland. Scotland always voted Labour (for a decade or two at least) right up until they didn’t.

    You can make the case that 2019 was special, but in many ways 2017;was too. Many voted Corbyn without wanting a Corbyn PM.

    I still think Labour are nailed on, but the swing will rightly be shown against the last election, 2019.
    The only baseline is the previous election. To win power Labour need to win sufficient seats vs their total in 2019, not any prior election.

    It was already the case that we fell out of the usual schedule. The 2017 election was 3 years earlier than required. The 2019 election was either 6 months early or 6 months late vs 2015, and years and years early vs the mandate delivered in 2017.

    That chaos has of course continued into government with a rolling succession of senior ministers and Prime Ministers to ensure that almost nothing is actually being brought through as actual legislation.

    Politically then the baseline is October 1974 or 1992 - a chaotic, necrotic government stuck in office unable to government.
  • .

    It's PPE all over again.


    Is it any wonder that infrastructure costs so much in this country but is always shite, late and over budget? You've got to pay the middleman/woman a couple of mil first. It's a nightmarish Tory friends and family scheme.
    Even on the front page ‘There is no suggestion of wrong doing’.

    People are allowed to be married to other people who have jobs.

    I never mentioned wrong doing. But if you're saying that's the perception that the public get from this friends and family scheme....
  • TimSTimS Posts: 13,215

    I have a degree of sympathy with Heathener’s view that 2019 is a false baseline for GE24.

    However I do think GE19 reinforced some electoral shifts that were already happening. That’s what makes GE24 such a difficult election to call. I think there will be some tremendous value in some individual seat markets for those who have been paying attention to these shifts.

    Yes, I think Heathener overstates the case for 2017 being the ‘true’ baseline. Every election starts with an incumbent (party, if not the same candidate). That has some effect. In addition there were people who voted Tory for the first time in 2019 (for a variety of reasons, not just Brexit). The decline of Labour in the red wall had been running for a while as demographics changed and mirrored the decline in Scotland. Scotland always voted Labour (for a decade or two at least) right up until they didn’t.

    You can make the case that 2019 was special, but in many ways 2017;was too. Many voted Corbyn without wanting a Corbyn PM.

    I still think Labour are nailed on, but the swing will rightly be shown against the last election, 2019.
    Every election is different. It's like weather - trying to predict how the summer will evolve based on how similar the patterns in May are to 1976 or 2012 is a mug's game.

    In the last few elections the polls have probably been the best guide, even when they were materially wrong (in 2015). People ignored them too often because they didn't believe what they showed. That was particularly true of the rapid swings during 2017 and the SNP landslide and Lib Dem wipeout of 2015, but also led to some disbelief when Johnson won emphatically in 2019.

    The fascinating thing in the next year will be the degree to which the Tories creep back in the polls. We all expect them to, don't we. All of us. Nobody believes they'll get 26% at the GE. (Nobody expects Reform of the Greens to get 8% either). But by how much. Personally I expect Ref votes will mostly return home to Con or to no vote, but Green will be squeezed by Labour. But nothing is returning to a mythical baseline. Too much has changed.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,684

    .

    It's PPE all over again.


    Is it any wonder that infrastructure costs so much in this country but is always shite, late and over budget? You've got to pay the middleman/woman a couple of mil first. It's a nightmarish Tory friends and family scheme.
    Even on the front page ‘There is no suggestion of wrong doing’.

    People are allowed to be married to other people who have jobs.

    I never mentioned wrong doing. But if you're saying that's the perception that the public get from this friends and family scheme....
    Who is the middleman here? It’s a firm that is providing a service. I think people are seeing what they want to see, tbh.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,932

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    Heathener said:

    Foxy said:

    Being heckled by the Trots is probably a net benefit to Starmer as it shows how much Starmer has changed the party. It reassures the centrist floating voters.

    All the successful Labour leaders have had vocal critics on the far left.
    Indeed.

    Neil Kinnock started it with that famous, and brave, speech that prompted the Eric Heffer walk out and Derek 'Trot' Hatton's heckling.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9d7ahKWcsM

    Kinnock was never the greatest leader tbh but that was one of the greatest political speeches in British politics from the last 50 years. It's fun to watch again. It also really fired the starting gun on New Labour.

    And then there was 'call me Tony.' Many on the Hard Left preferred a tory victory to Blair. We can but marvel at how warped their perspective is.

    For the moment this plays perfectly into Keir Starmer's hands. It shows Britain that he is ready to govern.

    Further down the line, when things begin to go wrong for Starmer's Labour, the wolf pack will start biting at his ankles but for now they are left to howling beyond the camp fire's safe circle of light.
    Good morning

    I have no doubt that the Corbynites are anymore relevant than the ERG and will not have any impact on Starmer election prospects
    Well, the ERG are in government!
    Not all of them, Mogg and Francois aren't and Dorries wasn't
    They were very recently. Fun spat in the House yesterday with the Moggster complaining about programmed debate time for the Levelling Up Bill and the new leader of the house Mordaunt had to point out that timings were set by Mogg himself when he was leader of the house.

    So you can't really distance this government from ERG loons when it was infested with them less than a year ago.
    That was when Johnson and Truss were PM, most of the ERG are now in opposition on the backbenches to Sunak and Hunt almost as much as they are in opposition to Starmer.

    Only if Sunak loses the next general election will the ERG have the chance to regain significant influence on the party frontbench again
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    Heathener said:

    Foxy said:

    Being heckled by the Trots is probably a net benefit to Starmer as it shows how much Starmer has changed the party. It reassures the centrist floating voters.

    All the successful Labour leaders have had vocal critics on the far left.
    Indeed.

    Neil Kinnock started it with that famous, and brave, speech that prompted the Eric Heffer walk out and Derek 'Trot' Hatton's heckling.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9d7ahKWcsM

    Kinnock was never the greatest leader tbh but that was one of the greatest political speeches in British politics from the last 50 years. It's fun to watch again. It also really fired the starting gun on New Labour.

    And then there was 'call me Tony.' Many on the Hard Left preferred a tory victory to Blair. We can but marvel at how warped their perspective is.

    For the moment this plays perfectly into Keir Starmer's hands. It shows Britain that he is ready to govern.

    Further down the line, when things begin to go wrong for Starmer's Labour, the wolf pack will start biting at his ankles but for now they are left to howling beyond the camp fire's safe circle of light.
    Good morning

    I have no doubt that the Corbynites are anymore relevant than the ERG and will not have any impact on Starmer election prospects
    Well, the ERG are in government!
    Not all of them, Mogg and Francois aren't and Dorries wasn't
    They were very recently. Fun spat in the House yesterday with the Moggster complaining about programmed debate time for the Levelling Up Bill and the new leader of the house Mordaunt had to point out that timings were set by Mogg himself when he was leader of the house.

    So you can't really distance this government from ERG loons when it was infested with them less than a year ago.
    That was when Johnson and Truss were PM, most of the ERG are now in opposition on the backbenches to Sunak and Hunt almost as much as they are in opposition to Starmer.

    Only if Sunak loses the next general election will the ERG have the chance to regain significant influence on the party frontbench again
    So Sunak doesn't have a majority in the House and we can have a GE now? Yippee!
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,568

    Its a glorious idea. Stop Starmer becoming Prime Minister so that we can keep Sunak. The crank left are hardened Tories - unless they can have True Socialism they want the Tories.

    Remember that Jezbollah voted with the Tories against the Labour government literally hundreds and hundreds of times.

    Genuinely does anyone think they are relevant?
    Well not any more. But a few years ago...?

    We've seen this played out on this very forum where the crank left endlessly agitate against the true enemy - the Labour Party. As was always the case with the exception of the brief rising of The Jeremy.

    For all that the loony left decry Blair and Brown and screech that they were the same as the Tories, that isn't true. Not enough New Labour stuff made big and long-lasting improvements to society, but their list of achievements was lengthy. That the loonies just screech no demonstrates that their agenda basically is self-aggrandisement rather than actual care for other people.

    Which is the exact same trait that Tories have. Me me me, and fuck you.
    I've known quite a variety of the far left for obvious reasons, and that's not always quite true (maybe not quite true for the super-Brexiteers either). There's a school of thought, not entirely wrong, that democracy moves within a narrow range of "acceptable" economic policies which leaves maybe 20% of the population in desperate straits, and if you espouse anything beyond that you get slaughtered by the tycoon-owned media and the markets. They dislike centrists like Starmer because they think centrists give a false hope of change when actually they're seen by them as just moving the chairs around on the Titanic. Those of an inflammatory temperament conclude that the moderate left are hateful and only revolution or something like it will really change things for people on the margins of society, and then they get angry that it's not happening. It's not sensible (because you can't altogether ignore the markets and you can't build a left-wing government or indeed a revolution on tiny minority support) but it's not especially self-centred.

    The Corbyn experiment was interesting for those of us on the left because it got quite close to winning (though he was lucky with May/dementia tax in 2017 and unlucky with Boris/Brexit in 2019). He got a hearing because many of the policies were actually very popular and he put them across generally calmly rather than in inflammatory Scargill style. At some point I expect someone else with a reasonable manner will come along and have another try. People generally don't join Labour merely to move the chairs around, though at the moment the willingness to give Starmer 5 years to prove he's better is very strong even on the left in the party, because another 5 years of the Tories would just be ridiculous.
  • Happy Trussmas everybody.
  • Labour's social media team have some decent game.

    This is the cost of the Tories.



    https://twitter.com/UKLabour/status/1699333134112727258/photo/1
  • Heathener said:

    That should read 'Go back to the last proper General Election in Britain: June 2017, which was a hung parliament.'

    Sadly real gamblers and bookies will tell you that the benchmark for betting purposes is the 2019 general election.
    Not all of them.....regardless of which is the better baseline between 2017 and 2019 it should be pretty obvious the relationship between 2019 and 2024/5/3 will have less correlation than any other recent adjacent elections.
  • Heathener said:

    That should read 'Go back to the last proper General Election in Britain: June 2017, which was a hung parliament.'

    Sadly real gamblers and bookies will tell you that the benchmark for betting purposes is the 2019 general election.
    Not all of them.....regardless of which is the better baseline between 2017 and 2019 it should be pretty obvious the relationship between 2019 and 2024/5/3 will have less correlation than any other recent adjacent elections.
    But for most of the markets, for example the Labour net gains market, Labour start on 202 not 262.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    Happy Trussmas! Likely to be the only ever Gen X Prime Minister. We really managed to change the world didn’t we?
  • Its a glorious idea. Stop Starmer becoming Prime Minister so that we can keep Sunak. The crank left are hardened Tories - unless they can have True Socialism they want the Tories.

    Remember that Jezbollah voted with the Tories against the Labour government literally hundreds and hundreds of times.

    Genuinely does anyone think they are relevant?
    Well not any more. But a few years ago...?

    We've seen this played out on this very forum where the crank left endlessly agitate against the true enemy - the Labour Party. As was always the case with the exception of the brief rising of The Jeremy.

    For all that the loony left decry Blair and Brown and screech that they were the same as the Tories, that isn't true. Not enough New Labour stuff made big and long-lasting improvements to society, but their list of achievements was lengthy. That the loonies just screech no demonstrates that their agenda basically is self-aggrandisement rather than actual care for other people.

    Which is the exact same trait that Tories have. Me me me, and fuck you.
    I've known quite a variety of the far left for obvious reasons, and that's not always quite true (maybe not quite true for the super-Brexiteers either). There's a school of thought, not entirely wrong, that democracy moves within a narrow range of "acceptable" economic policies which leaves maybe 20% of the population in desperate straits, and if you espouse anything beyond that you get slaughtered by the tycoon-owned media and the markets. They dislike centrists like Starmer because they think centrists give a false hope of change when actually they're seen by them as just moving the chairs around on the Titanic. Those of an inflammatory temperament conclude that the moderate left are hateful and only revolution or something like it will really change things for people on the margins of society, and then they get angry that it's not happening. It's not sensible (because you can't altogether ignore the markets and you can't build a left-wing government or indeed a revolution on tiny minority support) but it's not especially self-centred.

    The Corbyn experiment was interesting for those of us on the left because it got quite close to winning (though he was lucky with May/dementia tax in 2017 and unlucky with Boris/Brexit in 2019). He got a hearing because many of the policies were actually very popular and he put them across generally calmly rather than in inflammatory Scargill style. At some point I expect someone else with a reasonable manner will come along and have another try. People generally don't join Labour merely to move the chairs around, though at the moment the willingness to give Starmer 5 years to prove he's better is very strong even on the left in the party, because another 5 years of the Tories would just be ridiculous.
    Appreciate your perspective! A couple of comments to add:
    1 In the round, the policy platform in 2017 was pretty good. That so many of the ideas have been suborned by the Tories and adopted under a different label shows that a different approach on policy can work. Which is why I endlessly advocate StateCo solutions to so many of our terrible service / infrastructure holes
    2 The issue with the policy platform was who was proposing it. Jeremy came with major baggage - the most unlucky anti-racism campaigner ever in that he kept sharing platforms and causes with screaming racists. And he was mild compared to the absolute morons and lunatics who came with him. A Corbyn government never looked viable because of who would be in it
    3 Of course the left of the party support getting into power. The crankies aren't in the party and with the exception on the Corbyn era, ,almost always sit off on the extreme left
  • DougSeal said:

    Happy Trussmas! Likely to be the only ever Gen X Prime Minister. We really managed to change the world didn’t we?

    Just for LOLs I might post the responses from her first PMQs.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541

    Trots are the worst.

    There are worse things than Trots.

    The most amusing thing about most self described Trots I’ve encountered is their admiration for Stalin, the Soviet Union and modern Semi-Demi-Fascist Russia. Haven’t they heard of this Trotsky chap?
    Do Trotskyists describe themselves thus? Are the in communion with the whatever number International he set up in exile?

    The best man at my wedding used to do TV reviews and listings for the Morning Star. We had a bit of a falling out in the Corbyn years.
  • Its a glorious idea. Stop Starmer becoming Prime Minister so that we can keep Sunak. The crank left are hardened Tories - unless they can have True Socialism they want the Tories.

    Remember that Jezbollah voted with the Tories against the Labour government literally hundreds and hundreds of times.

    Genuinely does anyone think they are relevant?
    Well not any more. But a few years ago...?

    We've seen this played out on this very forum where the crank left endlessly agitate against the true enemy - the Labour Party. As was always the case with the exception of the brief rising of The Jeremy.

    For all that the loony left decry Blair and Brown and screech that they were the same as the Tories, that isn't true. Not enough New Labour stuff made big and long-lasting improvements to society, but their list of achievements was lengthy. That the loonies just screech no demonstrates that their agenda basically is self-aggrandisement rather than actual care for other people.

    Which is the exact same trait that Tories have. Me me me, and fuck you.
    I've known quite a variety of the far left for obvious reasons, and that's not always quite true (maybe not quite true for the super-Brexiteers either). There's a school of thought, not entirely wrong, that democracy moves within a narrow range of "acceptable" economic policies which leaves maybe 20% of the population in desperate straits, and if you espouse anything beyond that you get slaughtered by the tycoon-owned media and the markets. They dislike centrists like Starmer because they think centrists give a false hope of change when actually they're seen by them as just moving the chairs around on the Titanic. Those of an inflammatory temperament conclude that the moderate left are hateful and only revolution or something like it will really change things for people on the margins of society, and then they get angry that it's not happening. It's not sensible (because you can't altogether ignore the markets and you can't build a left-wing government or indeed a revolution on tiny minority support) but it's not especially self-centred.

    The Corbyn experiment was interesting for those of us on the left because it got quite close to winning (though he was lucky with May/dementia tax in 2017 and unlucky with Boris/Brexit in 2019). He got a hearing because many of the policies were actually very popular and he put them across generally calmly rather than in inflammatory Scargill style. At some point I expect someone else with a reasonable manner will come along and have another try. People generally don't join Labour merely to move the chairs around, though at the moment the willingness to give Starmer 5 years to prove he's better is very strong even on the left in the party, because another 5 years of the Tories would just be ridiculous.
    I think for them to not be "entirely wrong" one might expect they can provide a fair few examples of where the poorest 20% of the population have been helped, in absolute terms rather than relative, by the far left in other countries.

    It is not difficult to find such examples for centre left or centre right policies.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 13,215
    edited September 2023
    DougSeal said:

    Happy Trussmas! Likely to be the only ever Gen X Prime Minister. We really managed to change the world didn’t we?

    Cameron was Gen X too, as is Starmer.

    EDIT: actually Starmer is borderline Boomer depending on when you set the changeover date. Cameron is comfortably X.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,736
    HYUFD said:

    It seems the hard left hate Starmer even more than they hated Blair. After all Blair kept Corbyn and Tony Benn in the Labour Party while Starmer has kicked Corbyn out

    SKS is no Tony Blair

    Tony Blair represented hope and a new direction. Blair saved the NHS and made massive investments in crumbling schools/ hospitals, introduced the minimum wage and had a broad church with a few Socialists in senior posts

    SKS offers more of he same Tory ideology and austerity and has surrounded himself with the most right wing Ghouls that the PLP possesses. Even Nandy is too left wing for insecure Sir Kid Starver
  • Downing Street showed an “ostrich, head-in-the-sand mentality” towards Covid in early 2020 as Boris Johnson’s government instead focused on subjects such as Brexit, a former health minister has said.

    Speaking to the Institute for Government as part of its ongoing series of in-depth interviews with former ministers about their time in office, James Bethell also said officials did not want him to discuss the potential economic impacts of Covid policies and would delete this from his speeches.

    Asked about the health department’s interaction with other arms of government, Lord Bethell, who was a whip before becoming a junior health minister, said it could be “pretty turbulent”.

    He said: “No 10 didn’t want to prioritise the pandemic in early 2020, even though the evidence was mounting – there was a post-election, ostrich, head-in-the-sand mentality, which I saw again around the invasion of Ukraine.

    “Its priority, and what we were told many times, was Brexit and levelling up. ‘We have to deliver Brexit, so could your pandemic quietly go and mind your own business, please,’ we were told. So we had several weeks of this brushing off, and then they switched into it eventually. After that we got a lot of erratic dipping in. In Yiddish, it’s called ‘kibitzing’: erratic and ill-informed interference.”

    While noting that as a junior minister his personal interactions with Downing Street were limited, Bethell said that from his point of view “coordination within government got a lot better” after Dominic Cummings, Boris Johnson’s chief adviser, left No 10 in November 2020.


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/sep/06/no-10-had-head-in-sand-mentality-at-start-of-covid-crisis-says-ex-minister
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,415
    Dualling (or not) of the A1 coleading the news alongside RAAC up here in the NE.
  • Labour's social media team have some decent game.

    This is the cost of the Tories.



    https://twitter.com/UKLabour/status/1699333134112727258/photo/1

    The solution to the problem is simple: grow more lettuces.

    If the Labour manifesto doesn't specifically commit to this policy we'll know they're not serious.
  • Its a glorious idea. Stop Starmer becoming Prime Minister so that we can keep Sunak. The crank left are hardened Tories - unless they can have True Socialism they want the Tories.

    Remember that Jezbollah voted with the Tories against the Labour government literally hundreds and hundreds of times.

    Genuinely does anyone think they are relevant?
    Well not any more. But a few years ago...?

    We've seen this played out on this very forum where the crank left endlessly agitate against the true enemy - the Labour Party. As was always the case with the exception of the brief rising of The Jeremy.

    For all that the loony left decry Blair and Brown and screech that they were the same as the Tories, that isn't true. Not enough New Labour stuff made big and long-lasting improvements to society, but their list of achievements was lengthy. That the loonies just screech no demonstrates that their agenda basically is self-aggrandisement rather than actual care for other people.

    Which is the exact same trait that Tories have. Me me me, and fuck you.
    I've known quite a variety of the far left for obvious reasons, and that's not always quite true (maybe not quite true for the super-Brexiteers either). There's a school of thought, not entirely wrong, that democracy moves within a narrow range of "acceptable" economic policies which leaves maybe 20% of the population in desperate straits, and if you espouse anything beyond that you get slaughtered by the tycoon-owned media and the markets. They dislike centrists like Starmer because they think centrists give a false hope of change when actually they're seen by them as just moving the chairs around on the Titanic. Those of an inflammatory temperament conclude that the moderate left are hateful and only revolution or something like it will really change things for people on the margins of society, and then they get angry that it's not happening. It's not sensible (because you can't altogether ignore the markets and you can't build a left-wing government or indeed a revolution on tiny minority support) but it's not especially self-centred.

    The Corbyn experiment was interesting for those of us on the left because it got quite close to winning (though he was lucky with May/dementia tax in 2017 and unlucky with Boris/Brexit in 2019). He got a hearing because many of the policies were actually very popular and he put them across generally calmly rather than in inflammatory Scargill style. At some point I expect someone else with a reasonable manner will come along and have another try. People generally don't join Labour merely to move the chairs around, though at the moment the willingness to give Starmer 5 years to prove he's better is very strong even on the left in the party, because another 5 years of the Tories would just be ridiculous.
    You are in danger of conflating the 2017 and 2019 elections Nick. A reminder: Much as the far left would have us think otherwise, in 2019 Labour did not fare disasterously because of Brexit, for the primary reason for the defeat was by then Corbyn himself, the mask having slipped in the intervening two years. There is copious polling evidence that Corbyn himself prompted people to switch their vote, already cited in past threads. That was compounded by the extreme policy platform in 2019. The manifesto that Labour conducted the 2017 election on was radical but still within the social democratic mould, such that nearly all the party could unite around it. The far left concluded that, because many of the 2017 policy positions were popular (I agree with you on that), the only reason that Labour lost in 2017 was that the manifesto did not include enough red meat, and we ended up with a 2019 manifesto that was so extreme to blow any economic credibility out of the water.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 13,215
    Notice the sandy haze in the sky today, as if we've all been transported to the Gulf?

    Saharan dust, but unusual Saharan dust for the UK. Usually when we get it, the winds come from Morocco and Western Algeria borne on SSW winds, over Spain and the Pyrenees and then into Britain. The sand and dust deposits in that source region are reddish in colour so our dust outbreaks tend to give us a bit of an orangy Martian sky and orange drops on cars when it rains.

    This time the configuration of the high and low pressure is different with the Omega Block you may have read about bringing dust from the SSE/SE, i.e. from Libya and the central Sahara. That dust is more beige-yellow. Hence the different quality of light this time.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,025
    Carnyx said:

    Specially for @JosiasJessop and @Malmesbury - the AAIB report is now out on the fatal helicopter accident at King Power Stadium, Leicester, in 2018.

    Extraordinary (to me, anyway) work on microanalysis and imaging, including microCT, of the tail rotor bearing and its seizure that was the primary cause of the accident. Also interesting that the AAIB contracted out some of this work. But I imagine some of it is specialist and needs seriously specialist kit.

    https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/64f73d429ee0f2000fb7bf1f/AAR_1-2023_G-VSKP_Final_Vol_1.pdf

    I’ve been skimming through that report this morning. Typically detailled report that we’ve come to expect from the AAIB - and proof that there can be excellence within public sector departments. Perhaps others can learn from them?

    Yes, they managed to find some pretty serious imaging equipment from somewhere, very impressive microscopy scanning of the failed parts. Metallurgy is one of the AAIB’s specialist subjects, but they don’t hesitate to ask manufacturers, universities and other specialist companies to help them out, especially for a fatal accident of such a common type that was so clearly caused by a component failure.

    Helicopters shouldn’t really exist, they’re instrinsically unstable by design! That there are so few accidents, is testament to the ability of the industry, investigators, and regulators all working together. Again, something that could be learned in a lot of other businesses and organisations.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,025
    TimS said:

    Notice the sandy haze in the sky today, as if we've all been transported to the Gulf?

    Saharan dust, but unusual Saharan dust for the UK. Usually when we get it, the winds come from Morocco and Western Algeria borne on SSW winds, over Spain and the Pyrenees and then into Britain. The sand and dust deposits in that source region are reddish in colour so our dust outbreaks tend to give us a bit of an orangy Martian sky and orange drops on cars when it rains.

    This time the configuration of the high and low pressure is different with the Omega Block you may have read about bringing dust from the SSE/SE, i.e. from Libya and the central Sahara. That dust is more beige-yellow. Hence the different quality of light this time.

    The big sandpit is pretty sandstormy this week. The dust keeps the temps down a little, and the wind makes it bearable to be be outside - so long as you don’t get hit by a mini sandstorm.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 13,215

    Its a glorious idea. Stop Starmer becoming Prime Minister so that we can keep Sunak. The crank left are hardened Tories - unless they can have True Socialism they want the Tories.

    Remember that Jezbollah voted with the Tories against the Labour government literally hundreds and hundreds of times.

    Genuinely does anyone think they are relevant?
    Well not any more. But a few years ago...?

    We've seen this played out on this very forum where the crank left endlessly agitate against the true enemy - the Labour Party. As was always the case with the exception of the brief rising of The Jeremy.

    For all that the loony left decry Blair and Brown and screech that they were the same as the Tories, that isn't true. Not enough New Labour stuff made big and long-lasting improvements to society, but their list of achievements was lengthy. That the loonies just screech no demonstrates that their agenda basically is self-aggrandisement rather than actual care for other people.

    Which is the exact same trait that Tories have. Me me me, and fuck you.
    I've known quite a variety of the far left for obvious reasons, and that's not always quite true (maybe not quite true for the super-Brexiteers either). There's a school of thought, not entirely wrong, that democracy moves within a narrow range of "acceptable" economic policies which leaves maybe 20% of the population in desperate straits, and if you espouse anything beyond that you get slaughtered by the tycoon-owned media and the markets. They dislike centrists like Starmer because they think centrists give a false hope of change when actually they're seen by them as just moving the chairs around on the Titanic. Those of an inflammatory temperament conclude that the moderate left are hateful and only revolution or something like it will really change things for people on the margins of society, and then they get angry that it's not happening. It's not sensible (because you can't altogether ignore the markets and you can't build a left-wing government or indeed a revolution on tiny minority support) but it's not especially self-centred.

    The Corbyn experiment was interesting for those of us on the left because it got quite close to winning (though he was lucky with May/dementia tax in 2017 and unlucky with Boris/Brexit in 2019). He got a hearing because many of the policies were actually very popular and he put them across generally calmly rather than in inflammatory Scargill style. At some point I expect someone else with a reasonable manner will come along and have another try. People generally don't join Labour merely to move the chairs around, though at the moment the willingness to give Starmer 5 years to prove he's better is very strong even on the left in the party, because another 5 years of the Tories would just be ridiculous.
    You are in danger of conflating the 2017 and 2019 elections Nick. A reminder: Much as the far left would have us think otherwise, in 2019 Labour did not fare disasterously because of Brexit, for the primary reason for the defeat was by then Corbyn himself, the mask having slipped in the intervening two years. There is copious polling evidence that Corbyn himself prompted people to switch their vote, already cited in past threads. That was compounded by the extreme policy platform in 2019. The manifesto that Labour conducted the 2017 election on was radical but still within the social democratic mould, such that nearly all the party could unite around it. The far left concluded that, because many of the 2017 policy positions were popular (I agree with you on that), the only reason that Labour lost in 2017 was that the manifesto did not include enough red meat, and we ended up with a 2019 manifesto that was so extreme to blow any economic credibility out of the water.
    This things that tipped many from tolerating him as a bit of a harmless old lefty to someone actively problematic were the ever growing revelations about anti-semitism in the party which he never accepted or took seriously, and the idiotic call to send samples of Novichok to the Russians for testing. Both made you wonder "whose side is this man on?"
  • HYUFD said:

    It seems the hard left hate Starmer even more than they hated Blair. After all Blair kept Corbyn and Tony Benn in the Labour Party while Starmer has kicked Corbyn out

    SKS is no Tony Blair

    Tony Blair represented hope and a new direction. Blair saved the NHS and made massive investments in crumbling schools/ hospitals, introduced the minimum wage and had a broad church with a few Socialists in senior posts

    SKS offers more of he same Tory ideology and austerity and has surrounded himself with the most right wing Ghouls that the PLP possesses. Even Nandy is too left wing for insecure Sir Kid Starver
    Can we pick this line apart slightly?

    Saved the NHS: The real crisis was a lack of investment meaning crumbling facilities and endless waits for treatment. Facilities were built using PFI, waiting lists were cleared by buying capacity from the private sector.

    Made massive investments in crubling schools/hospitals. Yes and no - a lot of money spent and a transformation of facilities. But the investment was PFI, not Capex.

    If we look at the reality of what that first Blair government did which BJO is rightly praising, there is nothing in what Starmer has said which suggests he won't at the very least copy those actions.

    You say that Starmer offers more of the same Tory ideology and austerity. But you just praised Blair. Who stuck to Tory austerity and exploded the Tory PFI ideology...
  • This certainly feels like the end of Gordon Brown now (an era I do actually remember quite well), with the narrative now turning into "what else will go wrong for Rishi Sunak".

    Sunak is clearly completely out of his depth, I notice polling now shows Labour being more trusted on Ukraine, Reeves more popular than Hunt and business lining up to go to Labour Conference, which will apparently have the biggest turnout from business since 1996.
  • Sandpit said:

    Carnyx said:

    Specially for @JosiasJessop and @Malmesbury - the AAIB report is now out on the fatal helicopter accident at King Power Stadium, Leicester, in 2018.

    Extraordinary (to me, anyway) work on microanalysis and imaging, including microCT, of the tail rotor bearing and its seizure that was the primary cause of the accident. Also interesting that the AAIB contracted out some of this work. But I imagine some of it is specialist and needs seriously specialist kit.

    https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/64f73d429ee0f2000fb7bf1f/AAR_1-2023_G-VSKP_Final_Vol_1.pdf

    I’ve been skimming through that report this morning. Typically detailled report that we’ve come to expect from the AAIB - and proof that there can be excellence within public sector departments. Perhaps others can learn from them?

    Yes, they managed to find some pretty serious imaging equipment from somewhere, very impressive microscopy scanning of the failed parts. Metallurgy is one of the AAIB’s specialist subjects, but they don’t hesitate to ask manufacturers, universities and other specialist companies to help them out, especially for a fatal accident of such a common type that was so clearly caused by a component failure.

    Helicopters shouldn’t really exist, they’re instrinsically unstable by design! That there are so few accidents, is testament to the ability of the industry, investigators, and regulators all working together. Again, something that could be learned in a lot of other businesses and organisations.
    Please don't say that! I will be back on one again at the end of next week. I have lost track exactly but it will be somewhere over my 750th flight.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 13,215

    This certainly feels like the end of Gordon Brown now (an era I do actually remember quite well), with the narrative now turning into "what else will go wrong for Rishi Sunak".

    Sunak is clearly completely out of his depth, I notice polling now shows Labour being more trusted on Ukraine, Reeves more popular than Hunt and business lining up to go to Labour Conference, which will apparently have the biggest turnout from business since 1996.

    Sunak would be delighted to hear he's heading for a result like Gordon Brown in 2010.
  • Sandpit said:

    Carnyx said:

    Specially for @JosiasJessop and @Malmesbury - the AAIB report is now out on the fatal helicopter accident at King Power Stadium, Leicester, in 2018.

    Extraordinary (to me, anyway) work on microanalysis and imaging, including microCT, of the tail rotor bearing and its seizure that was the primary cause of the accident. Also interesting that the AAIB contracted out some of this work. But I imagine some of it is specialist and needs seriously specialist kit.

    https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/64f73d429ee0f2000fb7bf1f/AAR_1-2023_G-VSKP_Final_Vol_1.pdf

    I’ve been skimming through that report this morning. Typically detailled report that we’ve come to expect from the AAIB - and proof that there can be excellence within public sector departments. Perhaps others can learn from them?

    Yes, they managed to find some pretty serious imaging equipment from somewhere, very impressive microscopy scanning of the failed parts. Metallurgy is one of the AAIB’s specialist subjects, but they don’t hesitate to ask manufacturers, universities and other specialist companies to help them out, especially for a fatal accident of such a common type that was so clearly caused by a component failure.

    Helicopters shouldn’t really exist, they’re instrinsically unstable by design! That there are so few accidents, is testament to the ability of the industry, investigators, and regulators all working together. Again, something that could be learned in a lot of other businesses and organisations.
    Please don't say that! I will be back on one again at the end of next week. I have lost track exactly but it will be somewhere over my 750th flight.
    I see an awful lot of helicopters passing to and from north sea platforms (wave at me if you see me below) and they seem as safe as any other modern mode of transport.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,025

    Sandpit said:

    Carnyx said:

    Specially for @JosiasJessop and @Malmesbury - the AAIB report is now out on the fatal helicopter accident at King Power Stadium, Leicester, in 2018.

    Extraordinary (to me, anyway) work on microanalysis and imaging, including microCT, of the tail rotor bearing and its seizure that was the primary cause of the accident. Also interesting that the AAIB contracted out some of this work. But I imagine some of it is specialist and needs seriously specialist kit.

    https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/64f73d429ee0f2000fb7bf1f/AAR_1-2023_G-VSKP_Final_Vol_1.pdf

    I’ve been skimming through that report this morning. Typically detailled report that we’ve come to expect from the AAIB - and proof that there can be excellence within public sector departments. Perhaps others can learn from them?

    Yes, they managed to find some pretty serious imaging equipment from somewhere, very impressive microscopy scanning of the failed parts. Metallurgy is one of the AAIB’s specialist subjects, but they don’t hesitate to ask manufacturers, universities and other specialist companies to help them out, especially for a fatal accident of such a common type that was so clearly caused by a component failure.

    Helicopters shouldn’t really exist, they’re instrinsically unstable by design! That there are so few accidents, is testament to the ability of the industry, investigators, and regulators all working together. Again, something that could be learned in a lot of other businesses and organisations.
    Please don't say that! I will be back on one again at the end of next week. I have lost track exactly but it will be somewhere over my 750th flight.
    That’s an impressive number. I’ve only half a dozen in my log book, of which I was P2 on a couple! (It’s way harder than it looks, even if you can fly regular planes). Have fun next week, I was trying to be positive about the industry!
  • Sandpit said:

    Carnyx said:

    Specially for @JosiasJessop and @Malmesbury - the AAIB report is now out on the fatal helicopter accident at King Power Stadium, Leicester, in 2018.

    Extraordinary (to me, anyway) work on microanalysis and imaging, including microCT, of the tail rotor bearing and its seizure that was the primary cause of the accident. Also interesting that the AAIB contracted out some of this work. But I imagine some of it is specialist and needs seriously specialist kit.

    https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/64f73d429ee0f2000fb7bf1f/AAR_1-2023_G-VSKP_Final_Vol_1.pdf

    I’ve been skimming through that report this morning. Typically detailled report that we’ve come to expect from the AAIB - and proof that there can be excellence within public sector departments. Perhaps others can learn from them?

    Yes, they managed to find some pretty serious imaging equipment from somewhere, very impressive microscopy scanning of the failed parts. Metallurgy is one of the AAIB’s specialist subjects, but they don’t hesitate to ask manufacturers, universities and other specialist companies to help them out, especially for a fatal accident of such a common type that was so clearly caused by a component failure.

    Helicopters shouldn’t really exist, they’re instrinsically unstable by design! That there are so few accidents, is testament to the ability of the industry, investigators, and regulators all working together. Again, something that could be learned in a lot of other businesses and organisations.
    Please don't say that! I will be back on one again at the end of next week. I have lost track exactly but it will be somewhere over my 750th flight.
    I see an awful lot of helicopters passing to and from north sea platforms (wave at me if you see me below) and they seem as safe as any other modern mode of transport.
    Yep I think they are fine. Just bloody uncomforatable. And I never liked relying on technology to that extent so I am always nervous whilst we are in the air.
  • Sandpit said:

    Carnyx said:

    Specially for @JosiasJessop and @Malmesbury - the AAIB report is now out on the fatal helicopter accident at King Power Stadium, Leicester, in 2018.

    Extraordinary (to me, anyway) work on microanalysis and imaging, including microCT, of the tail rotor bearing and its seizure that was the primary cause of the accident. Also interesting that the AAIB contracted out some of this work. But I imagine some of it is specialist and needs seriously specialist kit.

    https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/64f73d429ee0f2000fb7bf1f/AAR_1-2023_G-VSKP_Final_Vol_1.pdf

    I’ve been skimming through that report this morning. Typically detailled report that we’ve come to expect from the AAIB - and proof that there can be excellence within public sector departments. Perhaps others can learn from them?

    Yes, they managed to find some pretty serious imaging equipment from somewhere, very impressive microscopy scanning of the failed parts. Metallurgy is one of the AAIB’s specialist subjects, but they don’t hesitate to ask manufacturers, universities and other specialist companies to help them out, especially for a fatal accident of such a common type that was so clearly caused by a component failure.

    Helicopters shouldn’t really exist, they’re instrinsically unstable by design! That there are so few accidents, is testament to the ability of the industry, investigators, and regulators all working together. Again, something that could be learned in a lot of other businesses and organisations.
    Please don't say that! I will be back on one again at the end of next week. I have lost track exactly but it will be somewhere over my 750th flight.
    I see an awful lot of helicopters passing to and from north sea platforms (wave at me if you see me below) and they seem as safe as any other modern mode of transport.
    I suppose the difference is that if the source of propulsion for land or sea transport fails they just grind to a halt, and even a plane can glide and land if there is an airport nearby, whereas a helicopter will just fall from the sky. I've never been on one and have no desire to, although I suppose I've been on far more dangerous forms of transport, eg any form of transport in Sri Lanka. The time I rode in a tuktuk with a carrier bag filled with diesel fuel between my legs being a prime example...
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 5,065
    On topic:

    Far-left groups campaining to "Stop Starmer" will work in Starmer's favour. There may be a few not to bright "fairly-left" voters, who will be persuaded to vote Green or some kind of Socialist party, but they will be small in number. There will be a much larger group of voters who are roughly centrist, who didn't vote last time or voted Tory last time, that will read this as "Starmer is not a Loony Lefty" and be more likely to vote Labour in 2024.

    That was a major reason why Blair was so keen to scrap Clause 4. Not because he felt contractually bound to renationalise everything the Tories had privatised if he didn't get rid of it, but because he was prepared to lose the far left in order to gain more of the centre.
  • theakestheakes Posts: 935
    On another tact, I see the "Progressive Alliance", say they've tested the numbers for Mid Beds and are recommending the anti Tory vote goes to the Lib Dems not Labour. I suspect the Lib Dems will make hay with that.
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 5,065

    Labour's social media team have some decent game.

    This is the cost of the Tories.



    https://twitter.com/UKLabour/status/1699333134112727258/photo/1

    The solution to the problem is simple: grow more lettuces.

    If the Labour manifesto doesn't specifically commit to this policy we'll know they're not serious.
    There is no Magic Lettuce Tree!
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,025

    Sandpit said:

    Carnyx said:

    Specially for @JosiasJessop and @Malmesbury - the AAIB report is now out on the fatal helicopter accident at King Power Stadium, Leicester, in 2018.

    Extraordinary (to me, anyway) work on microanalysis and imaging, including microCT, of the tail rotor bearing and its seizure that was the primary cause of the accident. Also interesting that the AAIB contracted out some of this work. But I imagine some of it is specialist and needs seriously specialist kit.

    https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/64f73d429ee0f2000fb7bf1f/AAR_1-2023_G-VSKP_Final_Vol_1.pdf

    I’ve been skimming through that report this morning. Typically detailled report that we’ve come to expect from the AAIB - and proof that there can be excellence within public sector departments. Perhaps others can learn from them?

    Yes, they managed to find some pretty serious imaging equipment from somewhere, very impressive microscopy scanning of the failed parts. Metallurgy is one of the AAIB’s specialist subjects, but they don’t hesitate to ask manufacturers, universities and other specialist companies to help them out, especially for a fatal accident of such a common type that was so clearly caused by a component failure.

    Helicopters shouldn’t really exist, they’re instrinsically unstable by design! That there are so few accidents, is testament to the ability of the industry, investigators, and regulators all working together. Again, something that could be learned in a lot of other businesses and organisations.
    Please don't say that! I will be back on one again at the end of next week. I have lost track exactly but it will be somewhere over my 750th flight.
    I see an awful lot of helicopters passing to and from north sea platforms (wave at me if you see me below) and they seem as safe as any other modern mode of transport.
    I would hypothesie that, if people went out to the NS rigs primarily in boats, there would be many more injuries and fatalities than we see from helicopters, and that the accidents would be seen by regulators as close to unavoidable in bad weather.
  • eristdoof said:

    On topic:

    Far-left groups campaining to "Stop Starmer" will work in Starmer's favour. There may be a few not to bright "fairly-left" voters, who will be persuaded to vote Green or some kind of Socialist party, but they will be small in number. There will be a much larger group of voters who are roughly centrist, who didn't vote last time or voted Tory last time, that will read this as "Starmer is not a Loony Lefty" and be more likely to vote Labour in 2024.

    That was a major reason why Blair was so keen to scrap Clause 4. Not because he felt contractually bound to renationalise everything the Tories had privatised if he didn't get rid of it, but because he was prepared to lose the far left in order to gain more of the centre.

    One of Starmer's biggest triumphs is the purging of the malignant growths from the party. I know that I played a small part in allowing them to grow (sorry), but switched pretty early on to "they have to be purged" much to the dismay and anger of some good friends.

    Had the hard left still been in positions of influence, with senior figures calling for more strikes or for blanket soak the rich policies, the polls would likely be showing a toss-up.

    Whether this policy or that policy is the right one or not is irrelevant unless you can get people to vote for it. And the Labour Party exists explicitly to take power and reform things (Clause 1). So having self-righteous policies that won't be elected is the diametric opposite of why the party exists. Whatever the lunatics say about it.
  • On topic, the Hard Left has always been the strategic enemy of the Soft Left, just as the Hard Right has always been the strategic enemy of the Soft Right.

    You can move close to them, as both major parties have done in recent times, but you risk losing the public and, the moment you try to extricate yourself, you find they haven't gone away and will try to devour you (and it'd be interesting to get Paul Mason's take on that...)

    So the correct tactic in the long term is always to treat them as the enemies they are.
  • This certainly feels like the end of Gordon Brown now (an era I do actually remember quite well), with the narrative now turning into "what else will go wrong for Rishi Sunak".

    Sunak is clearly completely out of his depth, I notice polling now shows Labour being more trusted on Ukraine, Reeves more popular than Hunt and business lining up to go to Labour Conference, which will apparently have the biggest turnout from business since 1996.

    I think this is the poll you refer to with 65% DNK : -

    Labour's Rachel Reeves has opened up a clear lead over the Conservatives' Jeremy Hunt when voters are asked who should be the next chancellor of the exchequer, according to an exclusive poll for Sky News.

    The Labour shadow chancellor is the choice of 21% of voters, according to YouGov, while Jeremy Hunt is judged to make the better chancellor by 14%.

    Ms Reeves and Mr Hunt have been broadly neck-and-neck in the polls since Mr Hunt was appointed chancellor last October, so this poll represents the first moment where the opposition have taken a meaningful lead.

    There are still 65% of the public who say they don't know, offering a significant opportunity for the Conservatives.

  • eristdoof said:

    Labour's social media team have some decent game.

    This is the cost of the Tories.



    https://twitter.com/UKLabour/status/1699333134112727258/photo/1

    The solution to the problem is simple: grow more lettuces.

    If the Labour manifesto doesn't specifically commit to this policy we'll know they're not serious.
    There is no Magic Lettuce Tree!
    Can we not genetically alter the spaghetti tree to make it produce lettuce instead?
  • Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Carnyx said:

    Specially for @JosiasJessop and @Malmesbury - the AAIB report is now out on the fatal helicopter accident at King Power Stadium, Leicester, in 2018.

    Extraordinary (to me, anyway) work on microanalysis and imaging, including microCT, of the tail rotor bearing and its seizure that was the primary cause of the accident. Also interesting that the AAIB contracted out some of this work. But I imagine some of it is specialist and needs seriously specialist kit.

    https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/64f73d429ee0f2000fb7bf1f/AAR_1-2023_G-VSKP_Final_Vol_1.pdf

    I’ve been skimming through that report this morning. Typically detailled report that we’ve come to expect from the AAIB - and proof that there can be excellence within public sector departments. Perhaps others can learn from them?

    Yes, they managed to find some pretty serious imaging equipment from somewhere, very impressive microscopy scanning of the failed parts. Metallurgy is one of the AAIB’s specialist subjects, but they don’t hesitate to ask manufacturers, universities and other specialist companies to help them out, especially for a fatal accident of such a common type that was so clearly caused by a component failure.

    Helicopters shouldn’t really exist, they’re instrinsically unstable by design! That there are so few accidents, is testament to the ability of the industry, investigators, and regulators all working together. Again, something that could be learned in a lot of other businesses and organisations.
    Please don't say that! I will be back on one again at the end of next week. I have lost track exactly but it will be somewhere over my 750th flight.
    I see an awful lot of helicopters passing to and from north sea platforms (wave at me if you see me below) and they seem as safe as any other modern mode of transport.
    I would hypothesie that, if people went out to the NS rigs primarily in boats, there would be many more injuries and fatalities than we see from helicopters, and that the accidents would be seen by regulators as close to unavoidable in bad weather.
    Yep. We used to crew change by basket in the Middle East and it is definitely a lot more scary.

    We also had to crew change by boat for several hitches after the Shetland crash back in 2012. Doing that West of Shetlands is an experience. For that we used a Frog.

    https://www.reflexmarine.com/products/frog-range
This discussion has been closed.