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Is Sunak too rich to be an election winner? – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 11,765
edited September 2023 in General
imageIs Sunak too rich to be an election winner? – politicalbetting.com

At the next election if Sunak is still leader then the Tories will be trying to hold onto power with a prime minister who is simply far more prosperous than more than 99. 9% of the electorate.

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    MattWMattW Posts: 19,181
    First
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    They said that about Mrs Thatcher and David Cameron, and by "they" I mean members of their Cabinets. I don't think people care enough to change their votes, and might even like the idea of a Prime Minister who has been successful.

    That said, CCHQ might agree with OGH given this helicopter story:-

    Government shelves £40m contract for helicopter transport for Rishi Sunak
    Tender to provide aircraft for PM and other ministers withdrawn after criticism of his short-distance flights

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/aug/30/rishi-sunaks-helicopter-transport-will-not-be-renewed?ref=biztoc.com
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 63,702
    Credit where it's due: something positive emerges from the Home Office.

    Gross misconduct by police to result in automatic dismissal
    Staff who fail re-vetting can also be sacked under UK government reforms of disciplinary system
    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/aug/31/gross-misconduct-to-automatically-result-in-police-officer-dismissal
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 63,702
    In topic, were he a more adept politician, it wouldn't matter.
    He's not, so it probably does.
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    edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,166
    You don't say rich, you say *aspirational*
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    Nigelb said:

    Credit where it's due: something positive emerges from the Home Office.

    Gross misconduct by police to result in automatic dismissal
    Staff who fail re-vetting can also be sacked under UK government reforms of disciplinary system
    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/aug/31/gross-misconduct-to-automatically-result-in-police-officer-dismissal

    From that link, they are replacing independent chairs (lawyers) of disciplinary panels, which were introduced in 2016, with police chiefs. Also, they will (so have not done so yet) draw up a list of offences that constitute gross misconduct.

    First impressions: this announcement smacks of headline-chasing, and is there a spread market on the number of appeals and tribunals that result? Has the timetable been rushed because the Home Secretary needs to demonstrate some success or even usefulness prior to the rumoured reshuffle?
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    HeathenerHeathener Posts: 5,717
    Conservative friend of mine in Surrey thinks this is the worst aspect of Rishi Sunak. "Completely out of touch" is her verdict.

    Does it matter? Yes.
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    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 28,320
    Wouldn't matter if he was any good.
    He isn't, so it does.
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    Heathener said:

    Conservative friend of mine in Surrey thinks this is the worst aspect of Rishi Sunak. "Completely out of touch" is her verdict.

    Does it matter? Yes.

    Will your Conservative friend in Surrey change her vote? Will thousands of her co-constituents? If not, Rishi being "completely out of touch" doesn't matter.

    DJL's first rule of politics: most things that ought to matter, don't.
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 63,702

    Nigelb said:

    Credit where it's due: something positive emerges from the Home Office.

    Gross misconduct by police to result in automatic dismissal
    Staff who fail re-vetting can also be sacked under UK government reforms of disciplinary system
    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/aug/31/gross-misconduct-to-automatically-result-in-police-officer-dismissal

    From that link, they are replacing independent chairs (lawyers) of disciplinary panels, which were introduced in 2016, with police chiefs. Also, they will (so have not done so yet) draw up a list of offences that constitute gross misconduct.

    First impressions: this announcement smacks of headline-chasing, and is there a spread market on the number of appeals and tribunals that result? Has the timetable been rushed because the Home Secretary needs to demonstrate some success or even usefulness prior to the rumoured reshuffle?
    Quite possibly.
    She also gave an interview to Today recently, which is unusual.
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 63,702
    Interesting question.
    Guiliani lost the libel case by default, as he refused to comply with discovery orders.

    Huge win for Freeman and Moss and defeat for Rudy, but I wonder what discovery he is hiding? I suspect it is pretty bad- ie criminally damning- for him to risk this result which is financially ruinous and predicated on his discovery violations.
    https://twitter.com/AWeissmann_/status/1696913912841580669
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    ChrisChris Posts: 11,253

    Heathener said:

    Conservative friend of mine in Surrey thinks this is the worst aspect of Rishi Sunak. "Completely out of touch" is her verdict.

    Does it matter? Yes.

    Will your Conservative friend in Surrey change her vote? Will thousands of her co-constituents? If not, Rishi being "completely out of touch" doesn't matter.

    DJL's first rule of politics: most things that ought to matter, don't.
    Daft comment. It's not a question of whether any former Conservative voters will change their votes, but how many.
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    Too rich? No.

    If people were feeling secure themselves it would be less of an issue.
    If he came across as someone who could relate to normal people, and understand their concerns it wouldn't be such an issue either.
    And if he was able to handle it being raised in a charming or self-deprecating manner then it would also disarm it as an issue.

    The problem is that none of the above is the case with him it seems. People aren't feeling secure, he comes across as out of touch. And whenever the issue is raised he comes across as prickly and defensive.
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 63,702
    He recently travelled to Moscow by train.

    Chechnya’s leader Ramzan Kadyrov pledges to carry out any order Putin makes even if it results in his death

    Prigozhin’s death is leading to even more flowery public expressions of fealty from Putin’s inner circle

    https://twitter.com/SamRamani2/status/1696960869182181552

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    They said that about Mrs Thatcher and David Cameron, and by "they" I mean members of their Cabinets. I don't think people care enough to change their votes, and might even like the idea of a Prime Minister who has been successful.

    That said, CCHQ might agree with OGH given this helicopter story:-

    Government shelves £40m contract for helicopter transport for Rishi Sunak
    Tender to provide aircraft for PM and other ministers withdrawn after criticism of his short-distance flights

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/aug/30/rishi-sunaks-helicopter-transport-will-not-be-renewed?ref=biztoc.com

    They did, but the Sunaks are exponentially richer than the Thatchers or the Camerons.

    Also, Sunak's predecessors knew when to turn on the frugality. Even if it was performative, it took the edge off things when everyone's living standards fell.

    To return to something I've said before, Sunak's political CV needed a go at being a Conservative campaigner in Grimton North and a Ministerial role at Health or Work'n'Pensions to fill in the gaps in his life experience.

    And it's unfortunate that his name even sounds a bit like "rich".

    None of it helps, and it all adds up, fairly or not.
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 63,702
    edited August 2023
    In topic, it's not just Rishi perceived as out of touch, even if he leads the pack.

    Labour and Tories ‘out of step’ with cost of living concerns – poll
    Labour viewed as better placed to tackle crisis but voters sceptical it is a priority for either party
    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/aug/31/labour-and-tories-out-of-step-with-cost-of-living-concerns-poll

    I guess from voters' perspectives the distance between a multi millionaire Whitehall politician and a Whitehall politician isn't that large, compared to the distance of either from them.
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 63,702
    Nigelb said:

    In topic, it's not just Rishi perceived as out of touch, even if he leads the pack.

    Labour and Tories ‘out of step’ with cost of living concerns – poll
    Labour viewed as better placed to tackle crisis but voters sceptical it is a priority for either party
    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/aug/31/labour-and-tories-out-of-step-with-cost-of-living-concerns-poll

    I guess from voters' perspectives the distance between a multi millionaire Whitehall politician and a Whitehall politician isn't that large, compared to the distance of either from them.

    Unsurprisingly, proposals to give voters lots more money are more popular than those to take a bit less off them.
    ...Policies that cut energy prices, raised the minimum wage and reduced housing costs proved more favourable than tax cuts, the YouGov poll conducted among 2,000 adults found...
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    BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 18,972
    edited August 2023
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    In topic, it's not just Rishi perceived as out of touch, even if he leads the pack.

    Labour and Tories ‘out of step’ with cost of living concerns – poll
    Labour viewed as better placed to tackle crisis but voters sceptical it is a priority for either party
    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/aug/31/labour-and-tories-out-of-step-with-cost-of-living-concerns-poll

    I guess from voters' perspectives the distance between a multi millionaire Whitehall politician and a Whitehall politician isn't that large, compared to the distance of either from them.

    Unsurprisingly, proposals to give voters lots more money are more popular than those to take a bit less off them.
    ...Policies that cut energy prices, raised the minimum wage and reduced housing costs proved more favourable than tax cuts, the YouGov poll conducted among 2,000 adults found...
    Not entirely obvious, increasing housing costs is the popular option if you believe many here, or the Telegraph etc

    Suggesting reducing housing costs is a good thing is treated by some as like wishing for a plague.
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    CookieCookie Posts: 11,763
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    In topic, it's not just Rishi perceived as out of touch, even if he leads the pack.

    Labour and Tories ‘out of step’ with cost of living concerns – poll
    Labour viewed as better placed to tackle crisis but voters sceptical it is a priority for either party
    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/aug/31/labour-and-tories-out-of-step-with-cost-of-living-concerns-poll

    I guess from voters' perspectives the distance between a multi millionaire Whitehall politician and a Whitehall politician isn't that large, compared to the distance of either from them.

    Unsurprisingly, proposals to give voters lots more money are more popular than those to take a bit less off them.
    ...Policies that cut energy prices, raised the minimum wage and reduced housing costs proved more favourable than tax cuts, the YouGov poll conducted among 2,000 adults found...
    Well, yes, but two of those three ARE taking a bit less off them.
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    Nigelb said:

    In topic, it's not just Rishi perceived as out of touch, even if he leads the pack.

    Labour and Tories ‘out of step’ with cost of living concerns – poll
    Labour viewed as better placed to tackle crisis but voters sceptical it is a priority for either party
    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/aug/31/labour-and-tories-out-of-step-with-cost-of-living-concerns-poll

    I guess from voters' perspectives the distance between a multi millionaire Whitehall politician and a Whitehall politician isn't that large, compared to the distance of either from them.

    The disastrous performance of the Conservative government, combined with an opposition that chose to put up Ed Miliband and then Jeremy Corbyn as its candidate for PM, has obviously and understandably eroded trust in the political class generally. If Labour does win the next election, part of the huge job it will have will be to begin to repair that relationship.

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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 68,034

    I don’t think it’s wealth that makes Sunak out of touch. It’s a total lack of curiosity. He appears to have no real knowledge of how this country works for most people because he’s never bothered to find out. His path has kept him apart from regular life - Winchester, to Oxford, to Silicon Valley, to the City, to Parliament - and he’s not once sought to take a detour. It’s this separation that is notable. It means he doesn’t get it and never will. That’s not down to the money he has, it’s down to his personality and the choices he has made.

    Agreed. Vast wealth didn't seem to hurt Lord Salisbury or Harold Macmillan, at times when poverty was both more widespread and more serious than it is now. There must be more to it than that.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 68,034
    Incidentally, this is rather unfair on the RSPB:

    RSPB apologises for calling ministers 'liars' over environment pledges
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-66666435

    I mean, it's a simple statement of fact. The government has lied, and it's not just lying about this either. Its transport and education policies both spring to mind.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,595
    Given billionaires like Berlusconi and Trump have won general elections I certainly don't think Sunak is too rich to be an election winner. The fact he made a lot of money in finance and had a successful career in hedge funds and at Goldman Sachs is also a good thing in a PM, even if much of it is inherited via his wife.

    The idea of another Tory leadership election is also ludicrous. Given what they inherited from Truss and Kwarteng Sunak and Hunt are doing as best they can. It is the policies and record of the government that are relevant, especially on reducing inflation and the economy, another leadership election would make no difference and may even make it worse
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 63,702
    HYUFD said:

    Given billionaires like Berlusconi and Trump have won general elections I certainly don't think Sunak is too rich to be an election winner. The fact he made a lot of money in finance and had a successful career in hedge funds and at Goldman Sachs is also a good thing in a PM, even if much of it is inherited via his wife.

    The idea of another Tory leadership election is also ludicrous. Given what they inherited from Truss and Kwarteng Sunak and Hunt are doing as best they can. It is the policies and record of the government that are relevant, especially on reducing inflation and the economy, another leadership election would make no difference and may even make it worse

    Sunak's a bit rubbish, but I have to agree with that second paragraph.
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    HYUFD said:

    Given billionaires like Berlusconi and Trump have won general elections I certainly don't think Sunak is too rich to be an election winner. The fact he made a lot of money in finance and had a successful career in hedge funds and at Goldman Sachs is also a good thing in a PM, even if much of it is inherited via his wife.

    The idea of another Tory leadership election is also ludicrous. Given what they inherited from Truss and Kwarteng Sunak and Hunt are doing as best they can. It is the policies and record of the government that are relevant, especially on reducing inflation and the economy, another leadership election would make no difference and may even make it worse

    Yes it is the policies and record that are relevant and those policies that Sunak are implementing are bad ones. With the notable and noble exception of removing the insane water block on new housing, credit where credit is due for that one.

    Overall though, freezing tax thresholds during a time of inflation is obscene. It means even people who get inflation meeting pay rises are still worse off, and because of tax rising choices made in Downing Street not because of inflation.

    Compounding that pain by recommending below inflation pay rises is even worse.

    And not building sufficient houses and standing in the way of more is compounding the worst cost of living issue for tens of millions and preventing people from getting on the ladder and becoming the Tories of the future.

    Sunak may be doing his best, but his best is not good enough.

    If the Tories can do better, they should, no matter how ridiculous that may seem.

    If the Tories can't do any better, they need some time in Opposition to rethink their priorities.
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 63,702
    Ben Wallace: New UK defence secretary to be announced
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-66667039
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 68,034
    Nigelb said:

    Ben Wallace: New UK defence secretary to be announced
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-66667039

    Bad headline. Makes it sound like he is the new one.
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    HYUFD said:

    Given billionaires like Berlusconi and Trump have won general elections I certainly don't think Sunak is too rich to be an election winner. The fact he made a lot of money in finance and had a successful career in hedge funds and at Goldman Sachs is also a good thing in a PM, even if much of it is inherited via his wife.

    The idea of another Tory leadership election is also ludicrous. Given what they inherited from Truss and Kwarteng Sunak and Hunt are doing as best they can. It is the policies and record of the government that are relevant, especially on reducing inflation and the economy, another leadership election would make no difference and may even make it worse

    Of course its ludicruous. But then again so was the last one. And the one before that. And the one before that. If the MPs decide that on balance they have a better prospect of saving their seat if they change leader next summer, they will do it.
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    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 45,227
    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    Sunak is not richer than 99.9% of Britons, which would be 1 in 1000 people. It would probably be 99.9999% of people, or 1 in a million people, if you include his wealth via marriage. We don't live in America where such fabulous wealth is seen as admirable.

    It isn't his biggest problem though, that is that a high proportion of Britons are financially worse off than 5 years ago.

    I would have said actually that is his third biggest problem.

    His second biggest problem is that the government are seen as a gang of fifth-rate, drunken, incompetent criminals who couldn't run a Subway drive thru on Sark.

    His *biggest* problem is that they are.
    “who couldn't run a Subway drive thru on Sark.”

    Fine invention, sir. Bravo.
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    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 45,227
    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    Ben Wallace: New UK defence secretary to be announced
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-66667039

    Bad headline. Makes it sound like he is the new one.
    Maybe that is the surprising choice. Give him a peerage and send him straight back to the cabinet? Only half joking.
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    Nigelb said:

    Ben Wallace: New UK defence secretary to be announced
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-66667039

    They are to announce Ben Wallace as new Defence Secretary? A bold move!

    Watch them announce some utter twonk with no clue about defence. We had the story the other day that all our fast attack subs are docked and unserviceable, so they're bound to get some absolute spanner in the role to lie and sneer.
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    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    Ben Wallace: New UK defence secretary to be announced
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-66667039

    Bad headline. Makes it sound like he is the new one.
    Maybe that is the surprising choice. Give him a peerage and send him straight back to the cabinet? Only half joking.
    His seat is being abolished in the boundary review ...
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,595

    HYUFD said:

    Given billionaires like Berlusconi and Trump have won general elections I certainly don't think Sunak is too rich to be an election winner. The fact he made a lot of money in finance and had a successful career in hedge funds and at Goldman Sachs is also a good thing in a PM, even if much of it is inherited via his wife.

    The idea of another Tory leadership election is also ludicrous. Given what they inherited from Truss and Kwarteng Sunak and Hunt are doing as best they can. It is the policies and record of the government that are relevant, especially on reducing inflation and the economy, another leadership election would make no difference and may even make it worse

    Of course its ludicruous. But then again so was the last one. And the one before that. And the one before that. If the MPs decide that on balance they have a better prospect of saving their seat if they change leader next summer, they will do it.
    The only alternative leader who might poll slightly better is Mordaunt but she is too woke for many Tory MPs and members so you may end up with PM Braverman or Badenoch instead or at best PM Barclay who would be little change from Sunak anyway
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 68,034

    Nigelb said:

    Ben Wallace: New UK defence secretary to be announced
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-66667039

    They are to announce Ben Wallace as new Defence Secretary? A bold move!

    Watch them announce some utter twonk with no clue about defence. We had the story the other day that all our fast attack subs are docked and unserviceable, so they're bound to get some absolute spanner in the role to lie and sneer.
    They're going to appoint GRANT SHAPPPS?!!!

    AAAAAAAARRRRRGGGGGHHHHHHHH!!!! PANIC!!!
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 56,508

    I don’t think it’s wealth that makes Sunak out of touch. It’s a total lack of curiosity. He appears to have no real knowledge of how this country works for most people because he’s never bothered to find out. His path has kept him apart from regular life - Winchester, to Oxford, to Silicon Valley, to the City, to Parliament - and he’s not once sought to take a detour. It’s this separation that is notable. It means he doesn’t get it and never will. That’s not down to the money he has, it’s down to his personality and the choices he has made.

    That's probably true. Holiday choices shouldn't matter but him going to California this summer simply reinforced this. And his private jet travel just doesn't quite add up.

    I'm still not sure this would matter if the economy was doing well, and incomes were rising, but it makes it much more likely he gets the tone wrong.
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    FoxyFoxy Posts: 45,383
    ydoethur said:

    I don’t think it’s wealth that makes Sunak out of touch. It’s a total lack of curiosity. He appears to have no real knowledge of how this country works for most people because he’s never bothered to find out. His path has kept him apart from regular life - Winchester, to Oxford, to Silicon Valley, to the City, to Parliament - and he’s not once sought to take a detour. It’s this separation that is notable. It means he doesn’t get it and never will. That’s not down to the money he has, it’s down to his personality and the choices he has made.

    Agreed. Vast wealth didn't seem to hurt Lord Salisbury or Harold Macmillan, at times when poverty was both more widespread and more serious than it is now. There must be more to it than that.
    I don't know much about Salisbury, but MacMillan was far more in touch with the people than Sunak. Perhaps it was service as a junior officer, but I think more his sense of noblesse oblige. His premiership was characterised by a consolidation of the Welfare state, house building at the highest rate in British History etc.

    My mum voted for Truss over Sunak in the membership vote because she didn't think he was committed to the country. I don't think this was racism, but rather his Green Card, Non-dom wife. In the words of Mrs May "a Citizen of Nowhere".
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    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Given billionaires like Berlusconi and Trump have won general elections I certainly don't think Sunak is too rich to be an election winner. The fact he made a lot of money in finance and had a successful career in hedge funds and at Goldman Sachs is also a good thing in a PM, even if much of it is inherited via his wife.

    The idea of another Tory leadership election is also ludicrous. Given what they inherited from Truss and Kwarteng Sunak and Hunt are doing as best they can. It is the policies and record of the government that are relevant, especially on reducing inflation and the economy, another leadership election would make no difference and may even make it worse

    Of course its ludicruous. But then again so was the last one. And the one before that. And the one before that. If the MPs decide that on balance they have a better prospect of saving their seat if they change leader next summer, they will do it.
    The only alternative leader who might poll slightly better is Mordaunt but she is too woke for many Tory MPs and members so you may end up with PM Braverman or Badenoch instead or at best PM Barclay who would be little change from Sunak anyway
    Tory MPs who might be better than Sunak, in my personal view:

    Gove
    Hunt
    Mordaunt
    Barclay
    Cleverly
    Dowden
    Donelan
    Tugendhat
    McVey

    Worse:
    Braverman
    Badenoch
    Shapps
    Patel
    Hancock
    Williamson

    Armageddon worst:
    Mogg

    Not put down Javid or Wallace as they're standing down.
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    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Given billionaires like Berlusconi and Trump have won general elections I certainly don't think Sunak is too rich to be an election winner. The fact he made a lot of money in finance and had a successful career in hedge funds and at Goldman Sachs is also a good thing in a PM, even if much of it is inherited via his wife.

    The idea of another Tory leadership election is also ludicrous. Given what they inherited from Truss and Kwarteng Sunak and Hunt are doing as best they can. It is the policies and record of the government that are relevant, especially on reducing inflation and the economy, another leadership election would make no difference and may even make it worse

    Of course its ludicruous. But then again so was the last one. And the one before that. And the one before that. If the MPs decide that on balance they have a better prospect of saving their seat if they change leader next summer, they will do it.
    The only alternative leader who might poll slightly better is Mordaunt but she is too woke for many Tory MPs and members so you may end up with PM Braverman or Badenoch instead or at best PM Barclay who would be little change from Sunak anyway
    It isn't about polling, its about desperation. Hard to gauge other candidates who sit playing their current role with what they would do with the big role.

    If the party is mad enough to pull the trigger (and it is) then I have to assume that a Blood and Thunder politician is what would be needed for a 6 month political culture war before the election in January 25. So rule out snore merchants like Barclay and Mordaunt. And I'm not convinced either of the other two will cut it either.

    You're going to be fighting hard against the RefUK/Reform axis, and that means needing a proper English battler screaming abuse at the forrin. May as well just make Lee Anderson the PM. "Vote Tory or Fuck Off".
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    FoxyFoxy Posts: 45,383
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Given billionaires like Berlusconi and Trump have won general elections I certainly don't think Sunak is too rich to be an election winner. The fact he made a lot of money in finance and had a successful career in hedge funds and at Goldman Sachs is also a good thing in a PM, even if much of it is inherited via his wife.

    The idea of another Tory leadership election is also ludicrous. Given what they inherited from Truss and Kwarteng Sunak and Hunt are doing as best they can. It is the policies and record of the government that are relevant, especially on reducing inflation and the economy, another leadership election would make no difference and may even make it worse

    Of course its ludicruous. But then again so was the last one. And the one before that. And the one before that. If the MPs decide that on balance they have a better prospect of saving their seat if they change leader next summer, they will do it.
    The only alternative leader who might poll slightly better is Mordaunt but she is too woke for many Tory MPs and members so you may end up with PM Braverman or Badenoch instead or at best PM Barclay who would be little change from Sunak anyway
    The fact that Mordaunt is ruled out by being "too Woke" just shows how out of touch the Tory Party is. They need a long time in opposition to knock some sense into themselves.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 68,034
    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    I don’t think it’s wealth that makes Sunak out of touch. It’s a total lack of curiosity. He appears to have no real knowledge of how this country works for most people because he’s never bothered to find out. His path has kept him apart from regular life - Winchester, to Oxford, to Silicon Valley, to the City, to Parliament - and he’s not once sought to take a detour. It’s this separation that is notable. It means he doesn’t get it and never will. That’s not down to the money he has, it’s down to his personality and the choices he has made.

    Agreed. Vast wealth didn't seem to hurt Lord Salisbury or Harold Macmillan, at times when poverty was both more widespread and more serious than it is now. There must be more to it than that.
    I don't know much about Salisbury, but MacMillan was far more in touch with the people than Sunak. Perhaps it was service as a junior officer, but I think more his sense of noblesse oblige. His premiership was characterised by a consolidation of the Welfare state, house building at the highest rate in British History etc.

    My mum voted for Truss over Sunak in the membership vote because she didn't think he was committed to the country. I don't think this was racism, but rather his Green Card, Non-dom wife. In the words of Mrs May "a Citizen of Nowhere".
    Partly that, but also I think it was because he was a conscientious MP for Stockton in the Depression, where he really did see grinding poverty up close if not personal. Sunak sits for Richmond.

    The issue in the last leadership contest (as opposed to process) was both candidates were deeply flawed. However, there's flawed and there's off the charts.
  • Options

    "Vote Tory or Fuck Off".

    They're going to appoint @HYUFD to the Lords and make him PM?

    Congratulations HYUFD!
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 68,034
    @BartholomewRoberts

    You live in Lancashire. I was just wondering if you had any insight into the new seat arrangements in Wallace's area.

    It looks to me from the way the boundaries are redrawn that Lancaster suddenly becomes very much in play for the Tories by losing Fleetwood and picking up Garstang, while on current polls the revamped Blackpool North would surely look tempting for Labour.

    Any thoughts?
  • Options
    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    I don’t think it’s wealth that makes Sunak out of touch. It’s a total lack of curiosity. He appears to have no real knowledge of how this country works for most people because he’s never bothered to find out. His path has kept him apart from regular life - Winchester, to Oxford, to Silicon Valley, to the City, to Parliament - and he’s not once sought to take a detour. It’s this separation that is notable. It means he doesn’t get it and never will. That’s not down to the money he has, it’s down to his personality and the choices he has made.

    Agreed. Vast wealth didn't seem to hurt Lord Salisbury or Harold Macmillan, at times when poverty was both more widespread and more serious than it is now. There must be more to it than that.
    I don't know much about Salisbury, but MacMillan was far more in touch with the people than Sunak. Perhaps it was service as a junior officer, but I think more his sense of noblesse oblige. His premiership was characterised by a consolidation of the Welfare state, house building at the highest rate in British History etc.

    My mum voted for Truss over Sunak in the membership vote because she didn't think he was committed to the country. I don't think this was racism, but rather his Green Card, Non-dom wife. In the words of Mrs May "a Citizen of Nowhere".
    Partly that, but also I think it was because he was a conscientious MP for Stockton in the Depression, where he really did see grinding poverty up close if not personal. Sunak sits for Richmond.

    The issue in the last leadership contest (as opposed to process) was both candidates were deeply flawed. However, there's flawed and there's off the charts.
    Yes and with regret, Sunak is the off the charts one.

    Truss made mistakes with the mini budget, but before her demise she'd already sacked Kwarteng and replaced him with Hunt and rolled back those mistakes.

    Too little, too late, but at least she was willing to learn from her mistakes. Where has Sunak done that?

    Truss was right that the priority needs to be to grow the economy. You may say that's a truism everyone believes in, but its not at all apparent that everyone does. Sunak seems to want to manage decline and redirect taxes from those working to client voters and stuff anyone working for a living who is struggling to make ends meet - have some below inflation pay rises and fiscal drag to compound the pain.
  • Options

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Given billionaires like Berlusconi and Trump have won general elections I certainly don't think Sunak is too rich to be an election winner. The fact he made a lot of money in finance and had a successful career in hedge funds and at Goldman Sachs is also a good thing in a PM, even if much of it is inherited via his wife.

    The idea of another Tory leadership election is also ludicrous. Given what they inherited from Truss and Kwarteng Sunak and Hunt are doing as best they can. It is the policies and record of the government that are relevant, especially on reducing inflation and the economy, another leadership election would make no difference and may even make it worse

    Of course its ludicruous. But then again so was the last one. And the one before that. And the one before that. If the MPs decide that on balance they have a better prospect of saving their seat if they change leader next summer, they will do it.
    The only alternative leader who might poll slightly better is Mordaunt but she is too woke for many Tory MPs and members so you may end up with PM Braverman or Badenoch instead or at best PM Barclay who would be little change from Sunak anyway
    Tory MPs who might be better than Sunak, in my personal view:

    Gove
    Hunt
    Mordaunt
    Barclay
    Cleverly
    Dowden
    Donelan
    Tugendhat
    McVey

    Worse:
    Braverman
    Badenoch
    Shapps
    Patel
    Hancock
    Williamson

    Armageddon worst:
    Mogg

    Not put down Javid or Wallace as they're standing down.
    This is a fun exercise, because a pants-shat desperation ousting of Sunak next summer isn't an outrageous hypothesis. Sunak is quiet, managerial, ineffective. They would want someone who could rouse the Tory voters from 2019 out of their slumber and make them think "go on then, one more go".

    Of your "Better" list, Govey could do it but is Scottish, Tugendhat possibly but posh. McVey would be great sport but do they want another woman hectoring voters? Yes that is un-PC, but so are a lot of the red wall voters they need to rescue.

    Can't see any of the "Worse" list getting anywhere near it. Remember that the Tories would only be electing the war PM, not a long-termer. As soon as they win the election they could oust them and put in someone they actually want.

    Its completely mad, and they'd be challenging Tory since Alfred the Great seats in the blue wall to vote Tory or else, but I've just got this mad image of Lee Anderson as PM, a roaring "have at them" kind of figure in the mould of Geoffrey Cox. Literally shouting across the commons at Labour with Tory backbenchers whipped into a frenzy...
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 68,034


    Its completely mad, and they'd be challenging Tory since Alfred the Great seats in the blue wall to vote Tory or else, but I've just got this mad image of Lee Anderson as PM, a roaring "have at them" kind of figure in the mould of Geoffrey Cox. Literally shouting across the commons at Labour with Tory backbenchers whipped into a frenzy...

    Do you mind? I'm eating.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 45,227
    .

    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    I don’t think it’s wealth that makes Sunak out of touch. It’s a total lack of curiosity. He appears to have no real knowledge of how this country works for most people because he’s never bothered to find out. His path has kept him apart from regular life - Winchester, to Oxford, to Silicon Valley, to the City, to Parliament - and he’s not once sought to take a detour. It’s this separation that is notable. It means he doesn’t get it and never will. That’s not down to the money he has, it’s down to his personality and the choices he has made.

    Agreed. Vast wealth didn't seem to hurt Lord Salisbury or Harold Macmillan, at times when poverty was both more widespread and more serious than it is now. There must be more to it than that.
    I don't know much about Salisbury, but MacMillan was far more in touch with the people than Sunak. Perhaps it was service as a junior officer, but I think more his sense of noblesse oblige. His premiership was characterised by a consolidation of the Welfare state, house building at the highest rate in British History etc.

    My mum voted for Truss over Sunak in the membership vote because she didn't think he was committed to the country. I don't think this was racism, but rather his Green Card, Non-dom wife. In the words of Mrs May "a Citizen of Nowhere".
    Partly that, but also I think it was because he was a conscientious MP for Stockton in the Depression, where he really did see grinding poverty up close if not personal. Sunak sits for Richmond.

    The issue in the last leadership contest (as opposed to process) was both candidates were deeply flawed. However, there's flawed and there's off the charts.
    Yes and with regret, Sunak is the off the charts one.

    Truss made mistakes with the mini budget, but before her demise she'd already sacked Kwarteng and replaced him with Hunt and rolled back those mistakes.

    Too little, too late, but at least she was willing to learn from her mistakes. Where has Sunak done that?

    Truss was right that the priority needs to be to grow the economy. You may say that's a truism everyone believes in, but its not at all apparent that everyone does. Sunak seems to want to manage decline and redirect taxes from those working to client voters and stuff anyone working for a living who is struggling to make ends meet - have some below inflation pay rises and fiscal drag to compound the pain.
    Everyone wants to grow the economy.

    Everyone also wants to keep one of the part of the structure that keeps the economy as it is. Which adds up to keeping all of them.

    Until someone is prepared to break a lot of rice bowls, this will continue.
  • Options
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Given billionaires like Berlusconi and Trump have won general elections I certainly don't think Sunak is too rich to be an election winner. The fact he made a lot of money in finance and had a successful career in hedge funds and at Goldman Sachs is also a good thing in a PM, even if much of it is inherited via his wife.

    The idea of another Tory leadership election is also ludicrous. Given what they inherited from Truss and Kwarteng Sunak and Hunt are doing as best they can. It is the policies and record of the government that are relevant, especially on reducing inflation and the economy, another leadership election would make no difference and may even make it worse

    Of course its ludicruous. But then again so was the last one. And the one before that. And the one before that. If the MPs decide that on balance they have a better prospect of saving their seat if they change leader next summer, they will do it.
    The only alternative leader who might poll slightly better is Mordaunt but she is too woke for many Tory MPs and members so you may end up with PM Braverman or Badenoch instead or at best PM Barclay who would be little change from Sunak anyway
    Good morning

    What an utterly depressing state the conservative party is in if those are the choices
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 40,540
    edited August 2023
    HYUFD said:

    Given billionaires like Berlusconi and Trump have won general elections I certainly don't think Sunak is too rich to be an election winner. The fact he made a lot of money in finance and had a successful career in hedge funds and at Goldman Sachs is also a good thing in a PM, even if much of it is inherited via his wife.

    The idea of another Tory leadership election is also ludicrous. Given what they inherited from Truss and Kwarteng Sunak and Hunt are doing as best they can. It is the policies and record of the government that are relevant, especially on reducing inflation and the economy, another leadership election would make no difference and may even make it worse

    Paying your full whack of tax in the UK is important. Visibly so at a time when the Tories are inflicting more and more tax on working people - NI, fiscal drag, and so on. And remember that NI [edit] Class 1 is an unbelievably regressive income tax by any sane standard.

    Clue: non-dom doesn't count in many people's eyes.
  • Options

    "Vote Tory or Fuck Off".

    They're going to appoint @HYUFD to the Lords and make him PM?

    Congratulations HYUFD!
    At which point HY would pass a new law removing the franchise from anyone who isn't a communicant member of the Church of England.
  • Options
    ydoethur said:


    Its completely mad, and they'd be challenging Tory since Alfred the Great seats in the blue wall to vote Tory or else, but I've just got this mad image of Lee Anderson as PM, a roaring "have at them" kind of figure in the mould of Geoffrey Cox. Literally shouting across the commons at Labour with Tory backbenchers whipped into a frenzy...

    Do you mind? I'm eating.
    If it cost more than 30p you can Fuck Off.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 45,227

    "Vote Tory or Fuck Off".

    They're going to appoint @HYUFD to the Lords and make him PM?

    Congratulations HYUFD!
    At which point HY would pass a new law removing the franchise from anyone who isn't a communicant member of the Church of England.
    Including most of the Bishops in the CoE, probably.

    For not being True Church Of Englanders.
  • Options
    Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,222

    Nigelb said:

    Ben Wallace: New UK defence secretary to be announced
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-66667039

    They are to announce Ben Wallace as new Defence Secretary? A bold move!

    Watch them announce some utter twonk with no clue about defence. We had the story the other day that all our fast attack subs are docked and unserviceable, so they're bound to get some absolute spanner in the role to lie and sneer.
    They don't really have to have a clue about defence. They need to be decisive, pragmatic and capable of leading a vast, high spending ministry.
  • Options
    CookieCookie Posts: 11,763
    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Given billionaires like Berlusconi and Trump have won general elections I certainly don't think Sunak is too rich to be an election winner. The fact he made a lot of money in finance and had a successful career in hedge funds and at Goldman Sachs is also a good thing in a PM, even if much of it is inherited via his wife.

    The idea of another Tory leadership election is also ludicrous. Given what they inherited from Truss and Kwarteng Sunak and Hunt are doing as best they can. It is the policies and record of the government that are relevant, especially on reducing inflation and the economy, another leadership election would make no difference and may even make it worse

    Of course its ludicruous. But then again so was the last one. And the one before that. And the one before that. If the MPs decide that on balance they have a better prospect of saving their seat if they change leader next summer, they will do it.
    The only alternative leader who might poll slightly better is Mordaunt but she is too woke for many Tory MPs and members so you may end up with PM Braverman or Badenoch instead or at best PM Barclay who would be little change from Sunak anyway
    The fact that Mordaunt is ruled out by being "too Woke" just shows how out of touch the Tory Party is. They need a long time in opposition to knock some sense into themselves.
    Have you seen Morduant's views on trans? I'd say she is woker than 80% of the population on that score at least. She isn't 'woke for a Tory', she's full on drunk-the-koolaid man-can-become-a-woman-just-by-saying-so.
    She's fairly mainstream or mainstream Tory on many issues, but you can't blame a Tory for treating her with suspicion.
  • Options
    NerysHughesNerysHughes Posts: 3,368
    Heathener said:

    Conservative friend of mine in Surrey thinks this is the worst aspect of Rishi Sunak. "Completely out of touch" is her verdict.

    Does it matter? Yes.

    It always amazes me how many people know how their friends vote.
  • Options
    ydoethur said:

    @BartholomewRoberts

    You live in Lancashire. I was just wondering if you had any insight into the new seat arrangements in Wallace's area.

    It looks to me from the way the boundaries are redrawn that Lancaster suddenly becomes very much in play for the Tories by losing Fleetwood and picking up Garstang, while on current polls the revamped Blackpool North would surely look tempting for Labour.

    Any thoughts?

    Lancashire is a funny place with a lot of Tory and Labour wards quite close to each other.

    So yes Labour currently hold the soon to be abolished Lancaster and Fleetwood, most of which is going to become Lancaster and Wyre, so that may seem a possible Tory pick-up, but Lancaster and Wyre used to be Ben Wallace's constituency which became Wyre and Preston North and is also being abolished. So is it becoming 'in play' or on a party-political basis should it be viewed as the already 'in play' Wyre and Preston North constituency?

    My guess is that in a swing election then both of those constituencies would be in play as swing constituencies.

    As I don't think the next election is going to be a swing election, I suspect they'll both be Labour next time.
  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,766

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Given billionaires like Berlusconi and Trump have won general elections I certainly don't think Sunak is too rich to be an election winner. The fact he made a lot of money in finance and had a successful career in hedge funds and at Goldman Sachs is also a good thing in a PM, even if much of it is inherited via his wife.

    The idea of another Tory leadership election is also ludicrous. Given what they inherited from Truss and Kwarteng Sunak and Hunt are doing as best they can. It is the policies and record of the government that are relevant, especially on reducing inflation and the economy, another leadership election would make no difference and may even make it worse

    Of course its ludicruous. But then again so was the last one. And the one before that. And the one before that. If the MPs decide that on balance they have a better prospect of saving their seat if they change leader next summer, they will do it.
    The only alternative leader who might poll slightly better is Mordaunt but she is too woke for many Tory MPs and members so you may end up with PM Braverman or Badenoch instead or at best PM Barclay who would be little change from Sunak anyway
    Tory MPs who might be better than Sunak, in my personal view:

    Gove
    Hunt
    Mordaunt
    Barclay
    Cleverly
    Dowden
    Donelan
    Tugendhat
    McVey

    Worse:
    Braverman
    Badenoch
    Shapps
    Patel
    Hancock
    Williamson

    Armageddon worst:
    Mogg

    Not put down Javid or Wallace as they're standing down.
    The tank is clearly empty when Dowden is even considered as capable of aspiring to any role more sophisticated than JRM's butler. And Gove or McVey? What are you drinking?
  • Options
    geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,239
    Dura_Ace said:

    Nigelb said:

    Ben Wallace: New UK defence secretary to be announced
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-66667039

    They are to announce Ben Wallace as new Defence Secretary? A bold move!

    Watch them announce some utter twonk with no clue about defence. We had the story the other day that all our fast attack subs are docked and unserviceable, so they're bound to get some absolute spanner in the role to lie and sneer.
    They don't really have to have a clue about defence. They need to be decisive, pragmatic and capable of leading a vast, high spending ministry.
    Nevertheless I'm sure the Man of Virtue is in the running

  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 68,034
    Dura_Ace said:

    Nigelb said:

    Ben Wallace: New UK defence secretary to be announced
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-66667039

    They are to announce Ben Wallace as new Defence Secretary? A bold move!

    Watch them announce some utter twonk with no clue about defence. We had the story the other day that all our fast attack subs are docked and unserviceable, so they're bound to get some absolute spanner in the role to lie and sneer.
    They don't really have to have a clue about defence. They need to be decisive, pragmatic and capable of leading a vast, high spending ministry.
    Well, that's every member of both Houses of Parliament out.
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 32,356
    edited August 2023

    Heathener said:

    Conservative friend of mine in Surrey thinks this is the worst aspect of Rishi Sunak. "Completely out of touch" is her verdict.

    Does it matter? Yes.

    It always amazes me how many people know how their friends vote.
    A 'fail' on comprehension: Heathener has not claimed knowledge of their friend's vote, simply their opinion of Sunak.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,809
    Dura_Ace said:

    Nigelb said:

    Ben Wallace: New UK defence secretary to be announced
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-66667039

    They are to announce Ben Wallace as new Defence Secretary? A bold move!

    Watch them announce some utter twonk with no clue about defence. We had the story the other day that all our fast attack subs are docked and unserviceable, so they're bound to get some absolute spanner in the role to lie and sneer.
    They don't really have to have a clue about defence. They need to be decisive, pragmatic and capable of leading a vast, high spending ministry.
    We're screwed.
  • Options

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Given billionaires like Berlusconi and Trump have won general elections I certainly don't think Sunak is too rich to be an election winner. The fact he made a lot of money in finance and had a successful career in hedge funds and at Goldman Sachs is also a good thing in a PM, even if much of it is inherited via his wife.

    The idea of another Tory leadership election is also ludicrous. Given what they inherited from Truss and Kwarteng Sunak and Hunt are doing as best they can. It is the policies and record of the government that are relevant, especially on reducing inflation and the economy, another leadership election would make no difference and may even make it worse

    Of course its ludicruous. But then again so was the last one. And the one before that. And the one before that. If the MPs decide that on balance they have a better prospect of saving their seat if they change leader next summer, they will do it.
    The only alternative leader who might poll slightly better is Mordaunt but she is too woke for many Tory MPs and members so you may end up with PM Braverman or Badenoch instead or at best PM Barclay who would be little change from Sunak anyway
    Good morning

    What an utterly depressing state the conservative party is in if those are the choices
    The Conservative Party has at least two problems there.

    The acute one is that Boris surrounded himself with pinheads and nitwits because it made him look big by comparison. Sunak and Truss were put in the heir apparent roles because they weren't that good.

    The chronic one is that Conservatism does need to be tempered by something humane. For a long time, it was The War that did that. Now, there's a real risk of the Conservatives becoming a party of self-made men worshipping their creator. I don't know what keeps them humble. A decade in opposition?
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 68,034

    ydoethur said:

    @BartholomewRoberts

    You live in Lancashire. I was just wondering if you had any insight into the new seat arrangements in Wallace's area.

    It looks to me from the way the boundaries are redrawn that Lancaster suddenly becomes very much in play for the Tories by losing Fleetwood and picking up Garstang, while on current polls the revamped Blackpool North would surely look tempting for Labour.

    Any thoughts?

    Lancashire is a funny place with a lot of Tory and Labour wards quite close to each other.

    So yes Labour currently hold the soon to be abolished Lancaster and Fleetwood, most of which is going to become Lancaster and Wyre, so that may seem a possible Tory pick-up, but Lancaster and Wyre used to be Ben Wallace's constituency which became Wyre and Preston North and is also being abolished. So is it becoming 'in play' or on a party-political basis should it be viewed as the already 'in play' Wyre and Preston North constituency?

    My guess is that in a swing election then both of those constituencies would be in play as swing constituencies.

    As I don't think the next election is going to be a swing election, I suspect they'll both be Labour next time.
    Ok thanks. Something of a shame given it presumably means Cat Smith survives.
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 40,540

    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    I don’t think it’s wealth that makes Sunak out of touch. It’s a total lack of curiosity. He appears to have no real knowledge of how this country works for most people because he’s never bothered to find out. His path has kept him apart from regular life - Winchester, to Oxford, to Silicon Valley, to the City, to Parliament - and he’s not once sought to take a detour. It’s this separation that is notable. It means he doesn’t get it and never will. That’s not down to the money he has, it’s down to his personality and the choices he has made.

    Agreed. Vast wealth didn't seem to hurt Lord Salisbury or Harold Macmillan, at times when poverty was both more widespread and more serious than it is now. There must be more to it than that.
    I don't know much about Salisbury, but MacMillan was far more in touch with the people than Sunak. Perhaps it was service as a junior officer, but I think more his sense of noblesse oblige. His premiership was characterised by a consolidation of the Welfare state, house building at the highest rate in British History etc.

    My mum voted for Truss over Sunak in the membership vote because she didn't think he was committed to the country. I don't think this was racism, but rather his Green Card, Non-dom wife. In the words of Mrs May "a Citizen of Nowhere".
    Partly that, but also I think it was because he was a conscientious MP for Stockton in the Depression, where he really did see grinding poverty up close if not personal. Sunak sits for Richmond.

    The issue in the last leadership contest (as opposed to process) was both candidates were deeply flawed. However, there's flawed and there's off the charts.
    Yes and with regret, Sunak is the off the charts one.

    Truss made mistakes with the mini budget, but before her demise she'd already sacked Kwarteng and replaced him with Hunt and rolled back those mistakes.

    Too little, too late, but at least she was willing to learn from her mistakes. Where has Sunak done that?

    Truss was right that the priority needs to be to grow the economy. You may say that's a truism everyone believes in, but its not at all apparent that everyone does. Sunak seems to want to manage decline and redirect taxes from those working to client voters and stuff anyone working for a living who is struggling to make ends meet - have some below inflation pay rises and fiscal drag to compound the pain.
    Talking about fiscal drag, a lot of people are going to be paying tax over and above wages or pension income for the first time, with the rise in interest rates and the de facto reduction in savings interest allowances in income tax - now anyone with 20K in a decetn account that isn't an ISA will be hit. It's happening already - about 2/3 increase in taxpayers paying tax on savings for TY2022-23.

    https://www.which.co.uk/news/article/why-having-8000-of-savings-could-earn-you-a-tax-bill-abDnX2X1XvH7

    It doesn't help that National Savings have changed their multi-year bonds (the ones on which you do pay income tax). You can't get the money out early, with or without penalty. So under HMRC rules all the interest is debited in the final year for tax purposes. Which is not helpful.

    This is, of course, going to hit pensioners in partciular. Noticeable howling on DM comments - which might seem odd, as this is simply a reflection of an increase in income ... but folk aren't logical.
  • Options

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Given billionaires like Berlusconi and Trump have won general elections I certainly don't think Sunak is too rich to be an election winner. The fact he made a lot of money in finance and had a successful career in hedge funds and at Goldman Sachs is also a good thing in a PM, even if much of it is inherited via his wife.

    The idea of another Tory leadership election is also ludicrous. Given what they inherited from Truss and Kwarteng Sunak and Hunt are doing as best they can. It is the policies and record of the government that are relevant, especially on reducing inflation and the economy, another leadership election would make no difference and may even make it worse

    Of course its ludicruous. But then again so was the last one. And the one before that. And the one before that. If the MPs decide that on balance they have a better prospect of saving their seat if they change leader next summer, they will do it.
    The only alternative leader who might poll slightly better is Mordaunt but she is too woke for many Tory MPs and members so you may end up with PM Braverman or Badenoch instead or at best PM Barclay who would be little change from Sunak anyway
    Good morning

    What an utterly depressing state the conservative party is in if those are the choices
    The Conservative Party has at least two problems there.

    The acute one is that Boris surrounded himself with pinheads and nitwits because it made him look big by comparison. Sunak and Truss were put in the heir apparent roles because they weren't that good.

    The chronic one is that Conservatism does need to be tempered by something humane. For a long time, it was The War that did that. Now, there's a real risk of the Conservatives becoming a party of self-made men worshipping their creator. I don't know what keeps them humble. A decade in opposition?
    That's unfair with regards to Truss.

    She was the longest-serving Cabinet member IIRC before she became PM, having been in the Cabinet continuously under Cameron, May and Johnson. She wasn't just appointed by Boris.

    Truss was being touted as a future PM while Cameron was PM. Indeed, she was even mentioned as a possible future Tory leader before she even became an MP, while Labour were still in office.

    Her rather unfortunate tenure as PM doesn't mean she's a complete oddball only appointed to make Boris look better.
  • Options
    NerysHughesNerysHughes Posts: 3,368

    Heathener said:

    Conservative friend of mine in Surrey thinks this is the worst aspect of Rishi Sunak. "Completely out of touch" is her verdict.

    Does it matter? Yes.

    It always amazes me how many people know how their friends vote.
    A 'fail' on comprehension: Heathener has not claimed knowledge of their friend's vote, simply their opinion of Sunak.
    So the term "Conservative friend of mine" does not relate to knowledge of how someone votes but a description of their personality i.e. someone who is averse to change or innovation and holding traditional values.
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 32,356

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Given billionaires like Berlusconi and Trump have won general elections I certainly don't think Sunak is too rich to be an election winner. The fact he made a lot of money in finance and had a successful career in hedge funds and at Goldman Sachs is also a good thing in a PM, even if much of it is inherited via his wife.

    The idea of another Tory leadership election is also ludicrous. Given what they inherited from Truss and Kwarteng Sunak and Hunt are doing as best they can. It is the policies and record of the government that are relevant, especially on reducing inflation and the economy, another leadership election would make no difference and may even make it worse

    Of course its ludicruous. But then again so was the last one. And the one before that. And the one before that. If the MPs decide that on balance they have a better prospect of saving their seat if they change leader next summer, they will do it.
    The only alternative leader who might poll slightly better is Mordaunt but she is too woke for many Tory MPs and members so you may end up with PM Braverman or Badenoch instead or at best PM Barclay who would be little change from Sunak anyway
    Good morning

    What an utterly depressing state the conservative party is in if those are the choices
    The Conservative Party has at least two problems there.

    The acute one is that Boris surrounded himself with pinheads and nitwits because it made him look big by comparison. Sunak and Truss were put in the heir apparent roles because they weren't that good.

    The chronic one is that Conservatism does need to be tempered by something humane. For a long time, it was The War that did that. Now, there's a real risk of the Conservatives becoming a party of self-made men worshipping their creator. I don't know what keeps them humble. A decade in opposition?
    Got to be at least a 25% chance that the current Conservative Party is in terminal decline. Because it's been around for all our lives, we assume the Tory/Lab duopoly will last forever but it won't - nothing lasts forever.
  • Options
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    @BartholomewRoberts

    You live in Lancashire. I was just wondering if you had any insight into the new seat arrangements in Wallace's area.

    It looks to me from the way the boundaries are redrawn that Lancaster suddenly becomes very much in play for the Tories by losing Fleetwood and picking up Garstang, while on current polls the revamped Blackpool North would surely look tempting for Labour.

    Any thoughts?

    Lancashire is a funny place with a lot of Tory and Labour wards quite close to each other.

    So yes Labour currently hold the soon to be abolished Lancaster and Fleetwood, most of which is going to become Lancaster and Wyre, so that may seem a possible Tory pick-up, but Lancaster and Wyre used to be Ben Wallace's constituency which became Wyre and Preston North and is also being abolished. So is it becoming 'in play' or on a party-political basis should it be viewed as the already 'in play' Wyre and Preston North constituency?

    My guess is that in a swing election then both of those constituencies would be in play as swing constituencies.

    As I don't think the next election is going to be a swing election, I suspect they'll both be Labour next time.
    Ok thanks. Something of a shame given it presumably means Cat Smith survives.
    You'd have to be a pretty shit Labour MP not to survive the next election.

    And even as a pretty shit Labour MP, Cat Smith seems safe.
  • Options
    Meanwhile, have we done these?

    Londoners are divided on the recent ULEZ expansion

    47% support
    42% oppose

    There is a clear divide between inner Londoners (who support by 62% to 26%) and outer Londoners (who oppose by 51% to 38%)

    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1696832468274258017

    As noted here, it looks like there’s a London mayoral poll (by party) buried in the weights of the latest YouGov ULEZ questions.

    LAB: 47% (+7)
    CON: 29% (-6)
    GRN: 9% (+1)
    LDM: 8% (+4)
    OTH: 6% (-6)


    https://twitter.com/patrickjfl/status/1696933577001218242
  • Options
    GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,225

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Given billionaires like Berlusconi and Trump have won general elections I certainly don't think Sunak is too rich to be an election winner. The fact he made a lot of money in finance and had a successful career in hedge funds and at Goldman Sachs is also a good thing in a PM, even if much of it is inherited via his wife.

    The idea of another Tory leadership election is also ludicrous. Given what they inherited from Truss and Kwarteng Sunak and Hunt are doing as best they can. It is the policies and record of the government that are relevant, especially on reducing inflation and the economy, another leadership election would make no difference and may even make it worse

    Of course its ludicruous. But then again so was the last one. And the one before that. And the one before that. If the MPs decide that on balance they have a better prospect of saving their seat if they change leader next summer, they will do it.
    The only alternative leader who might poll slightly better is Mordaunt but she is too woke for many Tory MPs and members so you may end up with PM Braverman or Badenoch instead or at best PM Barclay who would be little change from Sunak anyway
    Good morning

    What an utterly depressing state the conservative party is in if those are the choices
    I do wonder if the state of Conservative membership is now even worse than Labour's was under Momentryism.

    The race to be the most ludicrous right wing nutter seems almost Trump-cult-ish (see also IDS endorsing the smashing of ULEZ cameras). Wisely they've kept a degree of executive control in leadership elections, but still - the average Tory member seems now quite out of touch with the average Tory voter.
  • Options
    eristdooferistdoof Posts: 4,951
    Foxy said:

    Sunak is not richer than 99.9% of Britons, which would be 1 in 1000 people. It would probably be 99.9999% of people, or 1 in a million people, if you include his wealth via marriage. We don't live in America where such fabulous wealth is seen as admirable.

    It isn't his biggest problem though, that is that a high proportion of Britons are financially worse off than 5 years ago.

    Someone who is richer than 99.9999% of Britons is also richer than 99.9% of Britons.
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 40,540

    Heathener said:

    Conservative friend of mine in Surrey thinks this is the worst aspect of Rishi Sunak. "Completely out of touch" is her verdict.

    Does it matter? Yes.

    It always amazes me how many people know how their friends vote.
    A 'fail' on comprehension: Heathener has not claimed knowledge of their friend's vote, simply their opinion of Sunak.
    So the term "Conservative friend of mine" does not relate to knowledge of how someone votes but a description of their personality i.e. someone who is averse to change or innovation and holding traditional values.
    You mean, like discouraging bribery in public life, upholding law and order by maintaining an efficient police and courts system, keeping up the defence of the realm, maintainign sound money and paying great attention to the balance of payments and the success of UK industry?
  • Options
    eristdooferistdoof Posts: 4,951

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    @BartholomewRoberts

    You live in Lancashire. I was just wondering if you had any insight into the new seat arrangements in Wallace's area.

    It looks to me from the way the boundaries are redrawn that Lancaster suddenly becomes very much in play for the Tories by losing Fleetwood and picking up Garstang, while on current polls the revamped Blackpool North would surely look tempting for Labour.

    Any thoughts?

    Lancashire is a funny place with a lot of Tory and Labour wards quite close to each other.

    So yes Labour currently hold the soon to be abolished Lancaster and Fleetwood, most of which is going to become Lancaster and Wyre, so that may seem a possible Tory pick-up, but Lancaster and Wyre used to be Ben Wallace's constituency which became Wyre and Preston North and is also being abolished. So is it becoming 'in play' or on a party-political basis should it be viewed as the already 'in play' Wyre and Preston North constituency?

    My guess is that in a swing election then both of those constituencies would be in play as swing constituencies.

    As I don't think the next election is going to be a swing election, I suspect they'll both be Labour next time.
    Ok thanks. Something of a shame given it presumably means Cat Smith survives.
    You'd have to be a pretty shit Labour MP not to survive the next election.

    And even as a pretty shit Labour MP, Cat Smith seems safe.
    Is Cat Smith an anagram with an m thrown in for good measure?
  • Options
    nico679nico679 Posts: 5,235
    Grant Shapps is the new Defence Secretary! Wtf !
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 32,356
    eristdoof said:

    Foxy said:

    Sunak is not richer than 99.9% of Britons, which would be 1 in 1000 people. It would probably be 99.9999% of people, or 1 in a million people, if you include his wealth via marriage. We don't live in America where such fabulous wealth is seen as admirable.

    It isn't his biggest problem though, that is that a high proportion of Britons are financially worse off than 5 years ago.

    Someone who is richer than 99.9999% of Britons is also richer than 99.9% of Britons.
    There's his defence then: 'I am richer than 1% of Britons'
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 40,540
    nico679 said:

    Grant Shapps is the new Defence Secretary! Wtf !

    Oh come off it, don't put bollocks like that for fun. It only winds us up.
  • Options

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Given billionaires like Berlusconi and Trump have won general elections I certainly don't think Sunak is too rich to be an election winner. The fact he made a lot of money in finance and had a successful career in hedge funds and at Goldman Sachs is also a good thing in a PM, even if much of it is inherited via his wife.

    The idea of another Tory leadership election is also ludicrous. Given what they inherited from Truss and Kwarteng Sunak and Hunt are doing as best they can. It is the policies and record of the government that are relevant, especially on reducing inflation and the economy, another leadership election would make no difference and may even make it worse

    Of course its ludicruous. But then again so was the last one. And the one before that. And the one before that. If the MPs decide that on balance they have a better prospect of saving their seat if they change leader next summer, they will do it.
    The only alternative leader who might poll slightly better is Mordaunt but she is too woke for many Tory MPs and members so you may end up with PM Braverman or Badenoch instead or at best PM Barclay who would be little change from Sunak anyway
    Good morning

    What an utterly depressing state the conservative party is in if those are the choices
    The Conservative Party has at least two problems there.

    The acute one is that Boris surrounded himself with pinheads and nitwits because it made him look big by comparison. Sunak and Truss were put in the heir apparent roles because they weren't that good.

    The chronic one is that Conservatism does need to be tempered by something humane. For a long time, it was The War that did that. Now, there's a real risk of the Conservatives becoming a party of self-made men worshipping their creator. I don't know what keeps them humble. A decade in opposition?
    That's unfair with regards to Truss.

    She was the longest-serving Cabinet member IIRC before she became PM, having been in the Cabinet continuously under Cameron, May and Johnson. She wasn't just appointed by Boris.

    Truss was being touted as a future PM while Cameron was PM. Indeed, she was even mentioned as a possible future Tory leader before she even became an MP, while Labour were still in office.

    Her rather unfortunate tenure as PM doesn't mean she's a complete oddball only appointed to make Boris look better.
    Truss had done rather well, certainly better than Liam Fox, as Trade Secretary and reasonably well as Foreign Secretary, again better than Dominic Raab.

    Her Thatcher tribute act, while misunderstanding Thatcher, during the leadership contest was somewhat odd though.
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 32,356

    Meanwhile, have we done these?

    Londoners are divided on the recent ULEZ expansion

    47% support
    42% oppose

    There is a clear divide between inner Londoners (who support by 62% to 26%) and outer Londoners (who oppose by 51% to 38%)

    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1696832468274258017

    As noted here, it looks like there’s a London mayoral poll (by party) buried in the weights of the latest YouGov ULEZ questions.

    LAB: 47% (+7)
    CON: 29% (-6)
    GRN: 9% (+1)
    LDM: 8% (+4)
    OTH: 6% (-6)


    https://twitter.com/patrickjfl/status/1696933577001218242

    It'll be interesting to see a ULEZ poll in say 3 or 6 months time as ULEZ! becomes ULEZzzzzz
  • Options
    eristdooferistdoof Posts: 4,951

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Given billionaires like Berlusconi and Trump have won general elections I certainly don't think Sunak is too rich to be an election winner. The fact he made a lot of money in finance and had a successful career in hedge funds and at Goldman Sachs is also a good thing in a PM, even if much of it is inherited via his wife.

    The idea of another Tory leadership election is also ludicrous. Given what they inherited from Truss and Kwarteng Sunak and Hunt are doing as best they can. It is the policies and record of the government that are relevant, especially on reducing inflation and the economy, another leadership election would make no difference and may even make it worse

    Of course its ludicruous. But then again so was the last one. And the one before that. And the one before that. If the MPs decide that on balance they have a better prospect of saving their seat if they change leader next summer, they will do it.
    The only alternative leader who might poll slightly better is Mordaunt but she is too woke for many Tory MPs and members so you may end up with PM Braverman or Badenoch instead or at best PM Barclay who would be little change from Sunak anyway
    Good morning

    What an utterly depressing state the conservative party is in if those are the choices
    The Conservative Party has at least two problems there.

    The acute one is that Boris surrounded himself with pinheads and nitwits because it made him look big by comparison. Sunak and Truss were put in the heir apparent roles because they weren't that good.

    The chronic one is that Conservatism does need to be tempered by something humane. For a long time, it was The War that did that. Now, there's a real risk of the Conservatives becoming a party of self-made men worshipping their creator. I don't know what keeps them humble. A decade in opposition?
    Got to be at least a 25% chance that the current Conservative Party is in terminal decline. Because it's been around for all our lives, we assume the Tory/Lab duopoly will last forever but it won't - nothing lasts forever.
    The problem with this argument is many were saying the same in 1997. The age profile f the Tories was similar then aswell, with hardly anyone under 30 voting Tory, and a Tory member under 40 was a novelty.
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,703
    Probably, yes.

    I mean don't rub our noses in it.
  • Options
    Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,222
    nico679 said:

    Grant Shapps is the new Defence Secretary! Wtf !

    Remember when Shappsie was Home Secretary for a week. That was funny.

    He might be a bit less frit about forcing the Army to make hard decisions. Fat Legolas was in a state of total pie and chips induced torpor on that front.
  • Options
    So what's the most humiliating for France:

    Yet another coup in a former French colony.

    Or Bongo Jnr asking for help in the English language.
  • Options
    OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,327

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Given billionaires like Berlusconi and Trump have won general elections I certainly don't think Sunak is too rich to be an election winner. The fact he made a lot of money in finance and had a successful career in hedge funds and at Goldman Sachs is also a good thing in a PM, even if much of it is inherited via his wife.

    The idea of another Tory leadership election is also ludicrous. Given what they inherited from Truss and Kwarteng Sunak and Hunt are doing as best they can. It is the policies and record of the government that are relevant, especially on reducing inflation and the economy, another leadership election would make no difference and may even make it worse

    Of course its ludicruous. But then again so was the last one. And the one before that. And the one before that. If the MPs decide that on balance they have a better prospect of saving their seat if they change leader next summer, they will do it.
    The only alternative leader who might poll slightly better is Mordaunt but she is too woke for many Tory MPs and members so you may end up with PM Braverman or Badenoch instead or at best PM Barclay who would be little change from Sunak anyway
    Good morning

    What an utterly depressing state the conservative party is in if those are the choices
    The Conservative Party has at least two problems there.

    The acute one is that Boris surrounded himself with pinheads and nitwits because it made him look big by comparison. Sunak and Truss were put in the heir apparent roles because they weren't that good.

    The chronic one is that Conservatism does need to be tempered by something humane. For a long time, it was The War that did that. Now, there's a real risk of the Conservatives becoming a party of self-made men worshipping their creator. I don't know what keeps them humble. A decade in opposition?
    Got to be at least a 25% chance that the current Conservative Party is in terminal decline. Because it's been around for all our lives, we assume the Tory/Lab duopoly will last forever but it won't - nothing lasts forever.
    The Tory party will never die because reaction and privilege will always seek political representation and the Tory party has always done that job better than anyone else. Perhaps it's a lack of imagination on my part but I can't see that changing.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 68,034
    eristdoof said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Given billionaires like Berlusconi and Trump have won general elections I certainly don't think Sunak is too rich to be an election winner. The fact he made a lot of money in finance and had a successful career in hedge funds and at Goldman Sachs is also a good thing in a PM, even if much of it is inherited via his wife.

    The idea of another Tory leadership election is also ludicrous. Given what they inherited from Truss and Kwarteng Sunak and Hunt are doing as best they can. It is the policies and record of the government that are relevant, especially on reducing inflation and the economy, another leadership election would make no difference and may even make it worse

    Of course its ludicruous. But then again so was the last one. And the one before that. And the one before that. If the MPs decide that on balance they have a better prospect of saving their seat if they change leader next summer, they will do it.
    The only alternative leader who might poll slightly better is Mordaunt but she is too woke for many Tory MPs and members so you may end up with PM Braverman or Badenoch instead or at best PM Barclay who would be little change from Sunak anyway
    Good morning

    What an utterly depressing state the conservative party is in if those are the choices
    The Conservative Party has at least two problems there.

    The acute one is that Boris surrounded himself with pinheads and nitwits because it made him look big by comparison. Sunak and Truss were put in the heir apparent roles because they weren't that good.

    The chronic one is that Conservatism does need to be tempered by something humane. For a long time, it was The War that did that. Now, there's a real risk of the Conservatives becoming a party of self-made men worshipping their creator. I don't know what keeps them humble. A decade in opposition?
    Got to be at least a 25% chance that the current Conservative Party is in terminal decline. Because it's been around for all our lives, we assume the Tory/Lab duopoly will last forever but it won't - nothing lasts forever.
    The problem with this argument is many were saying the same in 1997. The age profile f the Tories was similar then aswell, with hardly anyone under 30 voting Tory, and a Tory member under 40 was a novelty.
    And in 1945. And in 1906. And in 1848.
  • Options
    A long but worthwhile read from the brilliant Jennifer Williams in the FT. I went to college in Oldham so know the town well. To read so many problems at a big high school is disheartening.

    The Tories have absolutely broken the ability of so many families to get by, and also broken the budgets of the schools who are left to pick up the pieces.

    https://www.ft.com/content/96a37654-f8ea-46e3-a5ab-ca1d69dc5ea0
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 40,540
    Dura_Ace said:

    nico679 said:

    Grant Shapps is the new Defence Secretary! Wtf !

    Remember when Shappsie was Home Secretary for a week. That was funny.

    He might be a bit less frit about forcing the Army to make hard decisions. Fat Legolas was in a state of total pie and chips induced torpor on that front.
    It'd be just as well the Army don't operate the Longmoor Military Railway any more.
  • Options
    OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,327
    Sunak's problem isn't that he's rich but that he is new money. In this country you're only really allowed to be rich if you have inherited a country house. Anyone else is considered uppity and their wealth stirs all kinds of strange and deep resentments. Especially at a time when most people feel financially insecure.
  • Options
    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    I don’t think it’s wealth that makes Sunak out of touch. It’s a total lack of curiosity. He appears to have no real knowledge of how this country works for most people because he’s never bothered to find out. His path has kept him apart from regular life - Winchester, to Oxford, to Silicon Valley, to the City, to Parliament - and he’s not once sought to take a detour. It’s this separation that is notable. It means he doesn’t get it and never will. That’s not down to the money he has, it’s down to his personality and the choices he has made.

    Agreed. Vast wealth didn't seem to hurt Lord Salisbury or Harold Macmillan, at times when poverty was both more widespread and more serious than it is now. There must be more to it than that.
    I don't know much about Salisbury, but MacMillan was far more in touch with the people than Sunak. Perhaps it was service as a junior officer, but I think more his sense of noblesse oblige. His premiership was characterised by a consolidation of the Welfare state, house building at the highest rate in British History etc.

    My mum voted for Truss over Sunak in the membership vote because she didn't think he was committed to the country. I don't think this was racism, but rather his Green Card, Non-dom wife. In the words of Mrs May "a Citizen of Nowhere".
    Partly that, but also I think it was because he was a conscientious MP for Stockton in the Depression, where he really did see grinding poverty up close if not personal. Sunak sits for Richmond.

    The issue in the last leadership contest (as opposed to process) was both candidates were deeply flawed. However, there's flawed and there's off the charts.
    Richmondshire is a place where the issues of unaffordable housing and generational inequality are on full display:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-york-north-yorkshire-61981623
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 32,356
    eristdoof said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    @BartholomewRoberts

    You live in Lancashire. I was just wondering if you had any insight into the new seat arrangements in Wallace's area.

    It looks to me from the way the boundaries are redrawn that Lancaster suddenly becomes very much in play for the Tories by losing Fleetwood and picking up Garstang, while on current polls the revamped Blackpool North would surely look tempting for Labour.

    Any thoughts?

    Lancashire is a funny place with a lot of Tory and Labour wards quite close to each other.

    So yes Labour currently hold the soon to be abolished Lancaster and Fleetwood, most of which is going to become Lancaster and Wyre, so that may seem a possible Tory pick-up, but Lancaster and Wyre used to be Ben Wallace's constituency which became Wyre and Preston North and is also being abolished. So is it becoming 'in play' or on a party-political basis should it be viewed as the already 'in play' Wyre and Preston North constituency?

    My guess is that in a swing election then both of those constituencies would be in play as swing constituencies.

    As I don't think the next election is going to be a swing election, I suspect they'll both be Labour next time.
    Ok thanks. Something of a shame given it presumably means Cat Smith survives.
    You'd have to be a pretty shit Labour MP not to survive the next election.

    And even as a pretty shit Labour MP, Cat Smith seems safe.
    Is Cat Smith an anagram with an m thrown in for good measure?
    I still find it amusing that football manager Neil Warnock is an anagram of Colin W.....
  • Options
    GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,225

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Given billionaires like Berlusconi and Trump have won general elections I certainly don't think Sunak is too rich to be an election winner. The fact he made a lot of money in finance and had a successful career in hedge funds and at Goldman Sachs is also a good thing in a PM, even if much of it is inherited via his wife.

    The idea of another Tory leadership election is also ludicrous. Given what they inherited from Truss and Kwarteng Sunak and Hunt are doing as best they can. It is the policies and record of the government that are relevant, especially on reducing inflation and the economy, another leadership election would make no difference and may even make it worse

    Of course its ludicruous. But then again so was the last one. And the one before that. And the one before that. If the MPs decide that on balance they have a better prospect of saving their seat if they change leader next summer, they will do it.
    The only alternative leader who might poll slightly better is Mordaunt but she is too woke for many Tory MPs and members so you may end up with PM Braverman or Badenoch instead or at best PM Barclay who would be little change from Sunak anyway
    Good morning

    What an utterly depressing state the conservative party is in if those are the choices
    The Conservative Party has at least two problems there.

    The acute one is that Boris surrounded himself with pinheads and nitwits because it made him look big by comparison. Sunak and Truss were put in the heir apparent roles because they weren't that good.

    The chronic one is that Conservatism does need to be tempered by something humane. For a long time, it was The War that did that. Now, there's a real risk of the Conservatives becoming a party of self-made men worshipping their creator. I don't know what keeps them humble. A decade in opposition?
    A re-examination of what Conservatism actually stands for, and presenting it as a coherent movement with a plan and policies. The ideological shift to Kipper/NatCon populism has become an entrenched and powerful chunk of the party, which is pretty wildly at odds with much of the Con tradition (including Thatcherism). But it's simply not going to win elections.

    A strong and youthful leader who actually has the nerve to stand up to the ERG-ers, the NatCons and the Boris Cult, and to bin off clowns like Braverman - instead focusing on bringing through actually intelligent and talented MPs, is what they need. Sunak does come across as a fairly decent, humane chap, but he is weak and politically inept.

    The system of patronage, which was at its worst under Spaffer, needs to be looked at too. Truss, a person utterly unsuitable for junior ministerial roles, let alone PM, managed to achieve the latter essentially through toadying her way up the ladder before imposing her lower-sixth form room economics on the nation with ruinous consequences for many.
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,377
    Dura_Ace said:

    Nigelb said:

    Ben Wallace: New UK defence secretary to be announced
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-66667039

    They are to announce Ben Wallace as new Defence Secretary? A bold move!

    Watch them announce some utter twonk with no clue about defence. We had the story the other day that all our fast attack subs are docked and unserviceable, so they're bound to get some absolute spanner in the role to lie and sneer.
    They don't really have to have a clue about defence. They need to be decisive, pragmatic and capable of leading a vast, high spending ministry.
    They don't have a clue about anything , why would defence be any different given it is one of the toughest.
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,081

    eristdoof said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    @BartholomewRoberts

    You live in Lancashire. I was just wondering if you had any insight into the new seat arrangements in Wallace's area.

    It looks to me from the way the boundaries are redrawn that Lancaster suddenly becomes very much in play for the Tories by losing Fleetwood and picking up Garstang, while on current polls the revamped Blackpool North would surely look tempting for Labour.

    Any thoughts?

    Lancashire is a funny place with a lot of Tory and Labour wards quite close to each other.

    So yes Labour currently hold the soon to be abolished Lancaster and Fleetwood, most of which is going to become Lancaster and Wyre, so that may seem a possible Tory pick-up, but Lancaster and Wyre used to be Ben Wallace's constituency which became Wyre and Preston North and is also being abolished. So is it becoming 'in play' or on a party-political basis should it be viewed as the already 'in play' Wyre and Preston North constituency?

    My guess is that in a swing election then both of those constituencies would be in play as swing constituencies.

    As I don't think the next election is going to be a swing election, I suspect they'll both be Labour next time.
    Ok thanks. Something of a shame given it presumably means Cat Smith survives.
    You'd have to be a pretty shit Labour MP not to survive the next election.

    And even as a pretty shit Labour MP, Cat Smith seems safe.
    Is Cat Smith an anagram with an m thrown in for good measure?
    I still find it amusing that football manager Neil Warnock is an anagram of Colin W.....
    I had this pointed out to me by my Wednesday supporting colleagues.
  • Options
    kjhkjh Posts: 10,802

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Given billionaires like Berlusconi and Trump have won general elections I certainly don't think Sunak is too rich to be an election winner. The fact he made a lot of money in finance and had a successful career in hedge funds and at Goldman Sachs is also a good thing in a PM, even if much of it is inherited via his wife.

    The idea of another Tory leadership election is also ludicrous. Given what they inherited from Truss and Kwarteng Sunak and Hunt are doing as best they can. It is the policies and record of the government that are relevant, especially on reducing inflation and the economy, another leadership election would make no difference and may even make it worse

    Of course its ludicruous. But then again so was the last one. And the one before that. And the one before that. If the MPs decide that on balance they have a better prospect of saving their seat if they change leader next summer, they will do it.
    The only alternative leader who might poll slightly better is Mordaunt but she is too woke for many Tory MPs and members so you may end up with PM Braverman or Badenoch instead or at best PM Barclay who would be little change from Sunak anyway
    Tory MPs who might be better than Sunak, in my personal view:

    Gove
    Hunt
    Mordaunt
    Barclay
    Cleverly
    Dowden
    Donelan
    Tugendhat
    McVey

    Worse:
    Braverman
    Badenoch
    Shapps
    Patel
    Hancock
    Williamson

    Armageddon worst:
    Mogg

    Not put down Javid or Wallace as they're standing down.
    The tank is clearly empty when Dowden is even considered as capable of aspiring to any role more sophisticated than JRM's butler. And Gove or McVey? What are you drinking?
    Just heard Shapps being described on the Today programme as the 'Minister for Today' and he has certainly been excellent when put in front of the media to defend the indefensible. Whether that would make him a good PM....

    Mourdaunt appears to have no substance behind a very good presence. Gove and in particular Mcvey are plain scary.
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    Sunak's problem isn't that he's rich but that he is new money. In this country you're only really allowed to be rich if you have inherited a country house. Anyone else is considered uppity and their wealth stirs all kinds of strange and deep resentments. Especially at a time when most people feel financially insecure.

    Sunak should say that he hasn't made any money in this country but his wealth has all come from 'robbing foreigners'.
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    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,291
    edited August 2023
    Morning, everyone!

    Does look like Shapps for Defence. Wonder who’s going to get his present job. Energy, IIRC.

    On the question of vanishing MP’s! while Priti Patel was Home Secretary her constituents heard virtually nothing from her. We’ve now had a newsletter each month!
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    eristdooferistdoof Posts: 4,951

    Heathener said:

    Conservative friend of mine in Surrey thinks this is the worst aspect of Rishi Sunak. "Completely out of touch" is her verdict.

    Does it matter? Yes.

    It always amazes me how many people know how their friends vote.
    I think I have a fairly good idea of how my friends vote, especially if you allow borderline cases eg "I expect they voted LD last time, but it might have been Con". We talk with our friends, which means we get to know their political views, certainly on life in general if not party politics. People who rarely vote, or only ever vote at a GE are also fairly obvious.

    OK so friends might say something and actually vote something else, but people who fell the need to lie to friends, don't usually stay friends for very long.
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    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 28,320

    A long but worthwhile read from the brilliant Jennifer Williams in the FT. I went to college in Oldham so know the town well. To read so many problems at a big high school is disheartening.

    The Tories have absolutely broken the ability of so many families to get by, and also broken the budgets of the schools who are left to pick up the pieces.

    https://www.ft.com/content/96a37654-f8ea-46e3-a5ab-ca1d69dc5ea0

    Cheers.
    Makes me wistful for Monday when it begins again, worse.
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