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Lab’s by-election record has been mediocre – politicalbetting.com

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  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,420
    Nigelb said:

    Donald Trump vows to lock up political enemies if he returns to White House
    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/aug/30/trump-interview-jail-political-opponents-glenn-beck

    There is an old Mexican tale about a man who didn’t listen to the old saying “before you go out for revenge dig two graves”.




  • Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kle4 said:

    Mitch McConnell’s had another medical incident in the middle of a press conference.

    https://x.com/hannahpthomas/status/1696936240040321474

    And on a question about his thoughts on running for re-election in 2026 to boot.

    As we're repeatedly reminded Americans don't mind electing very old representatives, and staff are clearly on hand to work around it, but this sort of incident is hard to bounce back from easily, especially when it's a repeat.

    Maybe he'd helping out Trump by showing the pitfalls of being just a few years older, like Biden (I gather McConnell is hardly a super Trump fan, but it hardly matters).
    It is all getting ridiculous. These self-centred people are just not prepared to accept life and stand aside for the next generation.

    Have you had a gander, at "the next generation" of Republican US Senators?

    Be VERY careful what you wish for!
    Rephrasing for you have you looked at the next generations of americans would you want any of them in charge of a whelk stall let alone a major country
    Yes, I would. But then I do happen to know a number of next-gen Americans up close and personal.
    But you are american and share the mindset so....
    What is the American "mindset"? And IF one orders one via Amazon, do you still get free delivery?

    Btw, have order pending for copy of Almanac of American Politics 2024; when I placed order was told would receive mid-September (or a few days earlier IF more paid, which I did not).

    Couple weeks ago, got email saying that delivery date had been pushed back, and I would be told new date in subsequent email. Which so far has NOT been forthcoming.

    Note that I have every edition of AoAP since first edition (1972). Hasn't been all that great for last few decades, but want to keep up the collection.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,365

    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    One would reasonably assume that one must believe in the Christian God to be a Christian. As most British people do not, it’s fair to say we are no longer a Christian country (nor a religious one).

    Given 53.5% of people in England and Wales said they are Christian, Muslim or Jewish in the 2021 census then it is also fair to say we are still a religious nation that believes in the God of Abraham, even if only a plurality still believe in Christianity and the Trinity and that Jesus was Messiah

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/culturalidentity/religion/bulletins/religionenglandandwales/census2021
    LOL.

    Many who put that down do so because of cultural/legacy factors rather than serious belief.

    And of those who do believe, considering many of those would view other believers you have mentioned as either heretics or heathens, uniting them all together as "Abrahamic" is as preposterous as linking Corbynistas, and Blairites, and Orange Boomers and everyone else together as united "progressives".
    So, they still define themselves as Christian. While some of those defining themselves as non religious will be agnostic not atheist.

    Muslims and Christians and Jews also share a distinct belief in the God of Abraham, arguably more distinct than the agreement between Corbynites, Blairites and Orange Bookers on the power the state should have in the economy and outside
    LOL^2

    The hatred the Judean People's Front has for the People's Front of Judea applies even more to religion than it does to left wing British politics.

    The idea that people who call others heretics or heathens, or try to kill each other, should all be bundled together as one big happy family is just going against thousands of years of history - and ongoing reality to date.
    If you believe in the God of Abraham you ain't an atheist, tough.

    The question was solely about how many in the UK say they are religious v non religious, not about previous religious wars in centuries past
    I couldn't give a damn how many are atheists or not. Atheism isn't a belief system, it's an absence of one, that's what you don't understand. I don't believe what other atheists believe any more than Haredi Jews are the same as Jehovah's Witnesses are the same as Shi'ites who are fighting Sunnis.
    Not quite. Atheists are committed (unlike agnostics) to a specific opinion that there is no god under any description. It has to have specificity of belief to some extent - the clue is in the name. The universe has a non-divine nature. That's an important belief.

    I agree that within that limit atheists differ - people can be atheists and moral objectivists for example, though I suspect most are not, but excluding god as an option is a belief and a belief system. Quite unlike agnosticism which makes no exclusions.
    Sorry I couldn't reply sooner, I was out, but that is absolutely not the case. Your logic fails because it is coming from a theistic interpretation of the universe.

    I am not an agnostic, I am an atheist, because I believe there is no supernatural deity as defined by man, because there is no evidence for it. Same reason I don't believe in astrology, healing crystals, voodoo, invisible pink unicorns, flying spaghetti monsters or orbital teapots.

    However I am not committed to that belief. If evidence comes to challenge that, then I would be open to such evidence. I do not rule anything out or exclude anything as an option, if evidence becomes available to support that option.

    Furthermore that is not an "important" belief. To you as a theist the nature of religion may be of supreme importance, but to me as an atheist its not. Its no more important than star signs or any other equally superstitious nonsense.
    Thanks. I stand by what I have said - which if you look carefully you don't in fact challenge in any important particular. I don't really disagree with anything you have said.

  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,849

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kle4 said:

    Mitch McConnell’s had another medical incident in the middle of a press conference.

    https://x.com/hannahpthomas/status/1696936240040321474

    And on a question about his thoughts on running for re-election in 2026 to boot.

    As we're repeatedly reminded Americans don't mind electing very old representatives, and staff are clearly on hand to work around it, but this sort of incident is hard to bounce back from easily, especially when it's a repeat.

    Maybe he'd helping out Trump by showing the pitfalls of being just a few years older, like Biden (I gather McConnell is hardly a super Trump fan, but it hardly matters).
    It is all getting ridiculous. These self-centred people are just not prepared to accept life and stand aside for the next generation.

    Have you had a gander, at "the next generation" of Republican US Senators?

    Be VERY careful what you wish for!
    Rephrasing for you have you looked at the next generations of americans would you want any of them in charge of a whelk stall let alone a major country
    Yes, I would. But then I do happen to know a number of next-gen Americans up close and personal.
    But you are american and share the mindset so....
    What is the American "mindset"? And IF one orders one via Amazon, do you still get free delivery?

    Btw, have order pending for copy of Almanac of American Politics 2024; when I placed order was told would receive mid-September (or a few days earlier IF more paid, which I did not).

    Couple weeks ago, got email saying that delivery date had been pushed back, and I would be told new date in subsequent email. Which so far has NOT been forthcoming.

    Note that I have every edition of AoAP since first edition (1972). Hasn't been all that great for last few decades, but want to keep up the collection.
    Why would I order a copy of american politics? And why the questions about amazon I care frankly little about either. I talk to people all over the world, the only people its a waste of time to talk about politics with are americans. You are all tribal and seem to have little inkling
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,611

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Anyone else looking forward to the Sam Bankman-Fried fraud trial later this year? It seems astonishing so many people bought into what was, at best, utterly incompetent blustering (that is his own defence after all, that he;'s an idiot not a crook), but the crypto world seems fertile ground for scammers.

    Prosecutors have just written to the judge rebutting some of his attempts to get evidence excluded, some of which are pretty creative if prosecutors are accurate.

    Notably, the defendant now complains about something he previously requested: on April 22, 2023, in a letter demand the defendant asked for a copy of all Slack messages, and his counsel reiterated that request on a telephone call four days later. It cannot be that the defendant can strategically make a record of discovery he claims he is entitled to but is not getting, and then when he gets it, move to preclude its use

    https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.nysd.590939/gov.uscourts.nysd.590939.237.0.pdf

    They're also trying to bar all of the expert witnesses he wants to call in a separate matter. Should be fun, and has been surprisingly fast moving.

    Fun fact - both parents of Bankman-Fraud (sp) are lawyers, and faculty members of Stanford Junior University Law School.
    Given the people running FTX apparently dipped into customer accounts to pay for homes for themselves and relatives, among other things, you'd think they could have at least advised their son that he was at best butting up against the law.

    They must be very proud of him - he claims to have been hopelessly bad at running FTX which is why it collapsed, and hasn't much to his name now as a result, but he could post a bail worth millions somehow, which shows real talent.
    He was living in his parents home in lieu of prison until recently . . . when judge revoked his home detention on grounds that he was, among other things, engaged in witness intimidation, against his old girl friend, who worked for FTX but apparently was NOT included in the prime dining car of the bit-coin mega-grifter super-train.
    Has anyone got a list of the financial crimes that weren’t committed at FTX?
  • El_CapitanoEl_Capitano Posts: 4,238
    ydoethur said:

    Flanner said:

    dixiedean said:

    ydoethur said:

    Carnyx said:

    ydoethur said:

    kle4 said:

    ydoethur said:

    FPT

    We have reached a whole new world of plonkerdom on PB when Professor Richard Dawkins is defined as a Christian.

    Yet that is exactly where we are.

    Only on PB.

    Not quite. It's on a minor, unimportant news site as well:

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7136682.stm
    The 'Christian country' 'cultural Christian' topic is just tedious because people talk past one another even more than usual politics. It depends what one means - I'd have little trouble as an atheist referring to the country that way, depending what someone was trying to assert.

    Pretending that common arguments are 'only on PB' as if unique doesn't help either.
    It’s rot though. How can this be a Christian country when the majority of its population disbelieve in the Christian God?

    Clue: it isn’t. Hence why even PRIESTS now say it isn’t!
    You are saying it is impossible to be agnostic about existence of a God, and a Cultural Christian at the same time? Really?

    I think what Dawkins explained in the link Dr Y gave us seemed very plausible. A religion like Christianity isn’t just a philosophical concept, it’s cultural/tribal too.

    I’m sure I have read on PB very good stuff about Cultural Folkways in Britain, their relation to the English Civil war, how these same cultural behaviours travelled to the United States and played role in their Civil War too.
    Christianity without Christ is sophistical crap.
    But being without that philosophical element only allows examples, like Anabob, a perfect example, to, yes, get away with saying they are not strictly a Christian, but by being so culturally Christian they cannot get away with saying they “are in no way Christian, not even a teeny weeny bit.”

    They do need concede this fact.
    If they introduced payment by tapping instead of the collection bowl he'd be there like a shot.
    Well, good news! Cannock Church has.

    They bought one in the pandemic and can't be bothered to get rid of it.
    I've always thought that the weekly collection was hopelessly tax-inefficient, at least where it is for purposes that are legitimate for charity purposes. But maybe they now get the congregation to do Gift Aid now that it is electronic?
    Most members of the congregation give by standing order.

    But if you give weekly, you can fill out an envelope with a gift aid declaration on it. So it isn't tax inefficient from that point of view.
    Does the RC Church do the same?
    But with standing, kneeling, sitting, kneeling, sitting, Standing Orders?
    70% of donations to GWD Donation Stations in the UK are Gift Aided. (https://gwd.team/) The only reason my Catholic church doesn't use the technology is that it's located inconveniently for online transaction approval.

    Bizarrely: at the Coronation celebration at our local Anglican cathedral, almost no-one could contribute to the door collection because we - most of us routinely church-going - didn't have cash with us, assuming we'd be able to contribute by card.
    I am surprised to find an Anglican cathedral that doesn't take cards. Most of them do in their shops and cafes.

    Depends a bit of course on which cathedral it was. If it was a non-touristy one like Derby or Blackburn it would make more sense than if it were, say, York Minster.
    Flanner is right - this particular cathedral doesn't take cards. Nor does it have a shop or a cafe. Yet despite that it's very touristy. I've probably narrowed it down enough by now ;)

    Mrs Capitano knows the Dean, and we both know the Diocesan Canon well, so we might suggest it...
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,849

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Anyone else looking forward to the Sam Bankman-Fried fraud trial later this year? It seems astonishing so many people bought into what was, at best, utterly incompetent blustering (that is his own defence after all, that he;'s an idiot not a crook), but the crypto world seems fertile ground for scammers.

    Prosecutors have just written to the judge rebutting some of his attempts to get evidence excluded, some of which are pretty creative if prosecutors are accurate.

    Notably, the defendant now complains about something he previously requested: on April 22, 2023, in a letter demand the defendant asked for a copy of all Slack messages, and his counsel reiterated that request on a telephone call four days later. It cannot be that the defendant can strategically make a record of discovery he claims he is entitled to but is not getting, and then when he gets it, move to preclude its use

    https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.nysd.590939/gov.uscourts.nysd.590939.237.0.pdf

    They're also trying to bar all of the expert witnesses he wants to call in a separate matter. Should be fun, and has been surprisingly fast moving.

    Fun fact - both parents of Bankman-Fraud (sp) are lawyers, and faculty members of Stanford Junior University Law School.
    Given the people running FTX apparently dipped into customer accounts to pay for homes for themselves and relatives, among other things, you'd think they could have at least advised their son that he was at best butting up against the law.

    They must be very proud of him - he claims to have been hopelessly bad at running FTX which is why it collapsed, and hasn't much to his name now as a result, but he could post a bail worth millions somehow, which shows real talent.
    He was living in his parents home in lieu of prison until recently . . . when judge revoked his home detention on grounds that he was, among other things, engaged in witness intimidation, against his old girl friend, who worked for FTX but apparently was NOT included in the prime dining car of the bit-coin mega-grifter super-train.
    Has anyone got a list of the financial crimes that weren’t committed at FTX?
    I suspect his parents were proud of him till he got caught. It is the american attitude among those echelelons...rip people off all good..get caught you are a failure. Our similar class are exactly the same as I suspect are the elite of most countries
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,918
    edited August 2023
    Pagan2 said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Anyone else looking forward to the Sam Bankman-Fried fraud trial later this year? It seems astonishing so many people bought into what was, at best, utterly incompetent blustering (that is his own defence after all, that he;'s an idiot not a crook), but the crypto world seems fertile ground for scammers.

    Prosecutors have just written to the judge rebutting some of his attempts to get evidence excluded, some of which are pretty creative if prosecutors are accurate.

    Notably, the defendant now complains about something he previously requested: on April 22, 2023, in a letter demand the defendant asked for a copy of all Slack messages, and his counsel reiterated that request on a telephone call four days later. It cannot be that the defendant can strategically make a record of discovery he claims he is entitled to but is not getting, and then when he gets it, move to preclude its use

    https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.nysd.590939/gov.uscourts.nysd.590939.237.0.pdf

    They're also trying to bar all of the expert witnesses he wants to call in a separate matter. Should be fun, and has been surprisingly fast moving.

    Fun fact - both parents of Bankman-Fraud (sp) are lawyers, and faculty members of Stanford Junior University Law School.
    Given the people running FTX apparently dipped into customer accounts to pay for homes for themselves and relatives, among other things, you'd think they could have at least advised their son that he was at best butting up against the law.

    They must be very proud of him - he claims to have been hopelessly bad at running FTX which is why it collapsed, and hasn't much to his name now as a result, but he could post a bail worth millions somehow, which shows real talent.
    He was living in his parents home in lieu of prison until recently . . . when judge revoked his home detention on grounds that he was, among other things, engaged in witness intimidation, against his old girl friend, who worked for FTX but apparently was NOT included in the prime dining car of the bit-coin mega-grifter super-train.
    Has anyone got a list of the financial crimes that weren’t committed at FTX?
    I suspect his parents were proud of him till he got caught. It is the american attitude among those echelelons...rip people off all good..get caught you are a failure. Our similar class are exactly the same as I suspect are the elite of most countries
    They're probably still proud - he still obviously has some amount of ill gotten gains left, which won't be totally eaten up by the criminal trial, which they can benefit from.

    But then the civil complaints are still to come I believe.

    If I ever have kids they are free to still love me but believe I should go to prison for any crimes I commit.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,849
    kle4 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Anyone else looking forward to the Sam Bankman-Fried fraud trial later this year? It seems astonishing so many people bought into what was, at best, utterly incompetent blustering (that is his own defence after all, that he;'s an idiot not a crook), but the crypto world seems fertile ground for scammers.

    Prosecutors have just written to the judge rebutting some of his attempts to get evidence excluded, some of which are pretty creative if prosecutors are accurate.

    Notably, the defendant now complains about something he previously requested: on April 22, 2023, in a letter demand the defendant asked for a copy of all Slack messages, and his counsel reiterated that request on a telephone call four days later. It cannot be that the defendant can strategically make a record of discovery he claims he is entitled to but is not getting, and then when he gets it, move to preclude its use

    https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.nysd.590939/gov.uscourts.nysd.590939.237.0.pdf

    They're also trying to bar all of the expert witnesses he wants to call in a separate matter. Should be fun, and has been surprisingly fast moving.

    Fun fact - both parents of Bankman-Fraud (sp) are lawyers, and faculty members of Stanford Junior University Law School.
    Given the people running FTX apparently dipped into customer accounts to pay for homes for themselves and relatives, among other things, you'd think they could have at least advised their son that he was at best butting up against the law.

    They must be very proud of him - he claims to have been hopelessly bad at running FTX which is why it collapsed, and hasn't much to his name now as a result, but he could post a bail worth millions somehow, which shows real talent.
    He was living in his parents home in lieu of prison until recently . . . when judge revoked his home detention on grounds that he was, among other things, engaged in witness intimidation, against his old girl friend, who worked for FTX but apparently was NOT included in the prime dining car of the bit-coin mega-grifter super-train.
    Has anyone got a list of the financial crimes that weren’t committed at FTX?
    I suspect his parents were proud of him till he got caught. It is the american attitude among those echelelons...rip people off all good..get caught you are a failure. Our similar class are exactly the same as I suspect are the elite of most countries
    They're probably still proud - he still obviously has some amount of ill gotten gains left, which won't be totally eaten up by the criminal trial, which they can benefit from.

    But then the civil complaints are still to come I believe.

    If I ever have kids they are free to still love me but believe I should go to prison for any crimes I commit.
    I should my kids should. It seems to be an attitude only prevalent among the little people though. I won't speak for everyone but frankly I am getting fed up with people taking the piss and getting off because they know people. Avoiding prison when someone like me would get it for far less and failing yet getting a good pay off and a promotion. Time we turn round and do something about it
  • kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Anyone else looking forward to the Sam Bankman-Fried fraud trial later this year? It seems astonishing so many people bought into what was, at best, utterly incompetent blustering (that is his own defence after all, that he;'s an idiot not a crook), but the crypto world seems fertile ground for scammers.

    Prosecutors have just written to the judge rebutting some of his attempts to get evidence excluded, some of which are pretty creative if prosecutors are accurate.

    Notably, the defendant now complains about something he previously requested: on April 22, 2023, in a letter demand the defendant asked for a copy of all Slack messages, and his counsel reiterated that request on a telephone call four days later. It cannot be that the defendant can strategically make a record of discovery he claims he is entitled to but is not getting, and then when he gets it, move to preclude its use

    https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.nysd.590939/gov.uscourts.nysd.590939.237.0.pdf

    They're also trying to bar all of the expert witnesses he wants to call in a separate matter. Should be fun, and has been surprisingly fast moving.

    Fun fact - both parents of Bankman-Fraud (sp) are lawyers, and faculty members of Stanford Junior University Law School.
    Given the people running FTX apparently dipped into customer accounts to pay for homes for themselves and relatives, among other things, you'd think they could have at least advised their son that he was at best butting up against the law.

    They must be very proud of him - he claims to have been hopelessly bad at running FTX which is why it collapsed, and hasn't much to his name now as a result, but he could post a bail worth millions somehow, which shows real talent.
    He was living in his parents home in lieu of prison until recently . . . when judge revoked his home detention on grounds that he was, among other things, engaged in witness intimidation, against his old girl friend, who worked for FTX but apparently was NOT included in the prime dining car of the bit-coin mega-grifter super-train.
    Has anyone got a list of the financial crimes that weren’t committed at FTX?
    Doubt they shorted anyone making change for a $20-bill.
  • Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kle4 said:

    Mitch McConnell’s had another medical incident in the middle of a press conference.

    https://x.com/hannahpthomas/status/1696936240040321474

    And on a question about his thoughts on running for re-election in 2026 to boot.

    As we're repeatedly reminded Americans don't mind electing very old representatives, and staff are clearly on hand to work around it, but this sort of incident is hard to bounce back from easily, especially when it's a repeat.

    Maybe he'd helping out Trump by showing the pitfalls of being just a few years older, like Biden (I gather McConnell is hardly a super Trump fan, but it hardly matters).
    It is all getting ridiculous. These self-centred people are just not prepared to accept life and stand aside for the next generation.

    Have you had a gander, at "the next generation" of Republican US Senators?

    Be VERY careful what you wish for!
    Rephrasing for you have you looked at the next generations of americans would you want any of them in charge of a whelk stall let alone a major country
    Yes, I would. But then I do happen to know a number of next-gen Americans up close and personal.
    But you are american and share the mindset so....
    What is the American "mindset"? And IF one orders one via Amazon, do you still get free delivery?

    Btw, have order pending for copy of Almanac of American Politics 2024; when I placed order was told would receive mid-September (or a few days earlier IF more paid, which I did not).

    Couple weeks ago, got email saying that delivery date had been pushed back, and I would be told new date in subsequent email. Which so far has NOT been forthcoming.

    Note that I have every edition of AoAP since first edition (1972). Hasn't been all that great for last few decades, but want to keep up the collection.
    Why would I order a copy of american politics? And why the questions about amazon I care frankly little about either. I talk to people all over the world, the only people its a waste of time to talk about politics with are americans. You are all tribal and seem to have little inkling
    Did not say YOU would, but rather that I did.

    Was totally tangential to your screed.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,595
    Pagan2 said:

    kle4 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Anyone else looking forward to the Sam Bankman-Fried fraud trial later this year? It seems astonishing so many people bought into what was, at best, utterly incompetent blustering (that is his own defence after all, that he;'s an idiot not a crook), but the crypto world seems fertile ground for scammers.

    Prosecutors have just written to the judge rebutting some of his attempts to get evidence excluded, some of which are pretty creative if prosecutors are accurate.

    Notably, the defendant now complains about something he previously requested: on April 22, 2023, in a letter demand the defendant asked for a copy of all Slack messages, and his counsel reiterated that request on a telephone call four days later. It cannot be that the defendant can strategically make a record of discovery he claims he is entitled to but is not getting, and then when he gets it, move to preclude its use

    https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.nysd.590939/gov.uscourts.nysd.590939.237.0.pdf

    They're also trying to bar all of the expert witnesses he wants to call in a separate matter. Should be fun, and has been surprisingly fast moving.

    Fun fact - both parents of Bankman-Fraud (sp) are lawyers, and faculty members of Stanford Junior University Law School.
    Given the people running FTX apparently dipped into customer accounts to pay for homes for themselves and relatives, among other things, you'd think they could have at least advised their son that he was at best butting up against the law.

    They must be very proud of him - he claims to have been hopelessly bad at running FTX which is why it collapsed, and hasn't much to his name now as a result, but he could post a bail worth millions somehow, which shows real talent.
    He was living in his parents home in lieu of prison until recently . . . when judge revoked his home detention on grounds that he was, among other things, engaged in witness intimidation, against his old girl friend, who worked for FTX but apparently was NOT included in the prime dining car of the bit-coin mega-grifter super-train.
    Has anyone got a list of the financial crimes that weren’t committed at FTX?
    I suspect his parents were proud of him till he got caught. It is the american attitude among those echelelons...rip people off all good..get caught you are a failure. Our similar class are exactly the same as I suspect are the elite of most countries
    They're probably still proud - he still obviously has some amount of ill gotten gains left, which won't be totally eaten up by the criminal trial, which they can benefit from.

    But then the civil complaints are still to come I believe.

    If I ever have kids they are free to still love me but believe I should go to prison for any crimes I commit.
    I should my kids should. It seems to be an attitude only prevalent among the little people though. I won't speak for everyone but frankly I am getting fed up with people taking the piss and getting off because they know people. Avoiding prison when someone like me would get it for far less and failing yet getting a good pay off and a promotion. Time we turn round and do something about it
    You say you want a revolution?

    Well, you know, we all want to change the world.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,611
    Pagan2 said:

    kle4 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Anyone else looking forward to the Sam Bankman-Fried fraud trial later this year? It seems astonishing so many people bought into what was, at best, utterly incompetent blustering (that is his own defence after all, that he;'s an idiot not a crook), but the crypto world seems fertile ground for scammers.

    Prosecutors have just written to the judge rebutting some of his attempts to get evidence excluded, some of which are pretty creative if prosecutors are accurate.

    Notably, the defendant now complains about something he previously requested: on April 22, 2023, in a letter demand the defendant asked for a copy of all Slack messages, and his counsel reiterated that request on a telephone call four days later. It cannot be that the defendant can strategically make a record of discovery he claims he is entitled to but is not getting, and then when he gets it, move to preclude its use

    https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.nysd.590939/gov.uscourts.nysd.590939.237.0.pdf

    They're also trying to bar all of the expert witnesses he wants to call in a separate matter. Should be fun, and has been surprisingly fast moving.

    Fun fact - both parents of Bankman-Fraud (sp) are lawyers, and faculty members of Stanford Junior University Law School.
    Given the people running FTX apparently dipped into customer accounts to pay for homes for themselves and relatives, among other things, you'd think they could have at least advised their son that he was at best butting up against the law.

    They must be very proud of him - he claims to have been hopelessly bad at running FTX which is why it collapsed, and hasn't much to his name now as a result, but he could post a bail worth millions somehow, which shows real talent.
    He was living in his parents home in lieu of prison until recently . . . when judge revoked his home detention on grounds that he was, among other things, engaged in witness intimidation, against his old girl friend, who worked for FTX but apparently was NOT included in the prime dining car of the bit-coin mega-grifter super-train.
    Has anyone got a list of the financial crimes that weren’t committed at FTX?
    I suspect his parents were proud of him till he got caught. It is the american attitude among those echelelons...rip people off all good..get caught you are a failure. Our similar class are exactly the same as I suspect are the elite of most countries
    They're probably still proud - he still obviously has some amount of ill gotten gains left, which won't be totally eaten up by the criminal trial, which they can benefit from.

    But then the civil complaints are still to come I believe.

    If I ever have kids they are free to still love me but believe I should go to prison for any crimes I commit.
    I should my kids should. It seems to be an attitude only prevalent among the little people though. I won't speak for everyone but frankly I am getting fed up with people taking the piss and getting off because they know people. Avoiding prison when someone like me would get it for far less and failing yet getting a good pay off and a promotion. Time we turn round and do something about it
    NU10K
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 21,819

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kle4 said:

    Mitch McConnell’s had another medical incident in the middle of a press conference.

    https://x.com/hannahpthomas/status/1696936240040321474

    And on a question about his thoughts on running for re-election in 2026 to boot.

    As we're repeatedly reminded Americans don't mind electing very old representatives, and staff are clearly on hand to work around it, but this sort of incident is hard to bounce back from easily, especially when it's a repeat.

    Maybe he'd helping out Trump by showing the pitfalls of being just a few years older, like Biden (I gather McConnell is hardly a super Trump fan, but it hardly matters).
    It is all getting ridiculous. These self-centred people are just not prepared to accept life and stand aside for the next generation.

    Have you had a gander, at "the next generation" of Republican US Senators?

    Be VERY careful what you wish for!
    Rephrasing for you have you looked at the next generations of americans would you want any of them in charge of a whelk stall let alone a major country
    Yes, I would. But then I do happen to know a number of next-gen Americans up close and personal.
    But you are american and share the mindset so....
    What is the American "mindset"? And IF one orders one via Amazon, do you still get free delivery?

    Btw, have order pending for copy of Almanac of American Politics 2024; when I placed order was told would receive mid-September (or a few days earlier IF more paid, which I did not).

    Couple weeks ago, got email saying that delivery date had been pushed back, and I would be told new date in subsequent email. Which so far has NOT been forthcoming.

    Note that I have every edition of AoAP since first edition (1972). Hasn't been all that great for last few decades, but want to keep up the collection.
    I did not know those books existed. They sound interesting. Thank you for telling me.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,849

    Pagan2 said:

    kle4 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Anyone else looking forward to the Sam Bankman-Fried fraud trial later this year? It seems astonishing so many people bought into what was, at best, utterly incompetent blustering (that is his own defence after all, that he;'s an idiot not a crook), but the crypto world seems fertile ground for scammers.

    Prosecutors have just written to the judge rebutting some of his attempts to get evidence excluded, some of which are pretty creative if prosecutors are accurate.

    Notably, the defendant now complains about something he previously requested: on April 22, 2023, in a letter demand the defendant asked for a copy of all Slack messages, and his counsel reiterated that request on a telephone call four days later. It cannot be that the defendant can strategically make a record of discovery he claims he is entitled to but is not getting, and then when he gets it, move to preclude its use

    https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.nysd.590939/gov.uscourts.nysd.590939.237.0.pdf

    They're also trying to bar all of the expert witnesses he wants to call in a separate matter. Should be fun, and has been surprisingly fast moving.

    Fun fact - both parents of Bankman-Fraud (sp) are lawyers, and faculty members of Stanford Junior University Law School.
    Given the people running FTX apparently dipped into customer accounts to pay for homes for themselves and relatives, among other things, you'd think they could have at least advised their son that he was at best butting up against the law.

    They must be very proud of him - he claims to have been hopelessly bad at running FTX which is why it collapsed, and hasn't much to his name now as a result, but he could post a bail worth millions somehow, which shows real talent.
    He was living in his parents home in lieu of prison until recently . . . when judge revoked his home detention on grounds that he was, among other things, engaged in witness intimidation, against his old girl friend, who worked for FTX but apparently was NOT included in the prime dining car of the bit-coin mega-grifter super-train.
    Has anyone got a list of the financial crimes that weren’t committed at FTX?
    I suspect his parents were proud of him till he got caught. It is the american attitude among those echelelons...rip people off all good..get caught you are a failure. Our similar class are exactly the same as I suspect are the elite of most countries
    They're probably still proud - he still obviously has some amount of ill gotten gains left, which won't be totally eaten up by the criminal trial, which they can benefit from.

    But then the civil complaints are still to come I believe.

    If I ever have kids they are free to still love me but believe I should go to prison for any crimes I commit.
    I should my kids should. It seems to be an attitude only prevalent among the little people though. I won't speak for everyone but frankly I am getting fed up with people taking the piss and getting off because they know people. Avoiding prison when someone like me would get it for far less and failing yet getting a good pay off and a promotion. Time we turn round and do something about it
    You say you want a revolution?

    Well, you know, we all want to change the world.
    I didn't say I wanted a revolution. You misread me. I don't want a revolution because all it means is we get the same shits doing the same stuff just different faces. What I want is people being held to account so they no longer feel they can get away with it.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,374
    edited August 2023
    viewcode said:

    I'd watch @rcs1000 interviewing Viktor Orbán all the way through.

    "Tell me Viktor, have you thought about car insurance..."
    "You drive a Vectra, Viktor?"
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,611
    edited August 2023
    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kle4 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Anyone else looking forward to the Sam Bankman-Fried fraud trial later this year? It seems astonishing so many people bought into what was, at best, utterly incompetent blustering (that is his own defence after all, that he;'s an idiot not a crook), but the crypto world seems fertile ground for scammers.

    Prosecutors have just written to the judge rebutting some of his attempts to get evidence excluded, some of which are pretty creative if prosecutors are accurate.

    Notably, the defendant now complains about something he previously requested: on April 22, 2023, in a letter demand the defendant asked for a copy of all Slack messages, and his counsel reiterated that request on a telephone call four days later. It cannot be that the defendant can strategically make a record of discovery he claims he is entitled to but is not getting, and then when he gets it, move to preclude its use

    https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.nysd.590939/gov.uscourts.nysd.590939.237.0.pdf

    They're also trying to bar all of the expert witnesses he wants to call in a separate matter. Should be fun, and has been surprisingly fast moving.

    Fun fact - both parents of Bankman-Fraud (sp) are lawyers, and faculty members of Stanford Junior University Law School.
    Given the people running FTX apparently dipped into customer accounts to pay for homes for themselves and relatives, among other things, you'd think they could have at least advised their son that he was at best butting up against the law.

    They must be very proud of him - he claims to have been hopelessly bad at running FTX which is why it collapsed, and hasn't much to his name now as a result, but he could post a bail worth millions somehow, which shows real talent.
    He was living in his parents home in lieu of prison until recently . . . when judge revoked his home detention on grounds that he was, among other things, engaged in witness intimidation, against his old girl friend, who worked for FTX but apparently was NOT included in the prime dining car of the bit-coin mega-grifter super-train.
    Has anyone got a list of the financial crimes that weren’t committed at FTX?
    I suspect his parents were proud of him till he got caught. It is the american attitude among those echelelons...rip people off all good..get caught you are a failure. Our similar class are exactly the same as I suspect are the elite of most countries
    They're probably still proud - he still obviously has some amount of ill gotten gains left, which won't be totally eaten up by the criminal trial, which they can benefit from.

    But then the civil complaints are still to come I believe.

    If I ever have kids they are free to still love me but believe I should go to prison for any crimes I commit.
    I should my kids should. It seems to be an attitude only prevalent among the little people though. I won't speak for everyone but frankly I am getting fed up with people taking the piss and getting off because they know people. Avoiding prison when someone like me would get it for far less and failing yet getting a good pay off and a promotion. Time we turn round and do something about it
    You say you want a revolution?

    Well, you know, we all want to change the world.
    I didn't say I wanted a revolution. You misread me. I don't want a revolution because all it means is we get the same shits doing the same stuff just different faces. What I want is people being held to account so they no longer feel they can get away with it.
    Revolution.

    The difference between Capitalism and Communism is that Capitalism is the exploitation of man by man.

    Communism is the reverse.

    Edit: some little time ago, I was at a garden party, where the Home Sec was attending. In a brief conversation, I pointed out that the Home Sec had the arbitrary power to put people on the various sex offender registers - I was suggesting this as a a way to deal with those officials involved in Rotherham, who could not be bought to book. The look of utter, incredulous horror on the face of a flunky to the Home Sec was rather enjoyable.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,849
    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kle4 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Anyone else looking forward to the Sam Bankman-Fried fraud trial later this year? It seems astonishing so many people bought into what was, at best, utterly incompetent blustering (that is his own defence after all, that he;'s an idiot not a crook), but the crypto world seems fertile ground for scammers.

    Prosecutors have just written to the judge rebutting some of his attempts to get evidence excluded, some of which are pretty creative if prosecutors are accurate.

    Notably, the defendant now complains about something he previously requested: on April 22, 2023, in a letter demand the defendant asked for a copy of all Slack messages, and his counsel reiterated that request on a telephone call four days later. It cannot be that the defendant can strategically make a record of discovery he claims he is entitled to but is not getting, and then when he gets it, move to preclude its use

    https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.nysd.590939/gov.uscourts.nysd.590939.237.0.pdf

    They're also trying to bar all of the expert witnesses he wants to call in a separate matter. Should be fun, and has been surprisingly fast moving.

    Fun fact - both parents of Bankman-Fraud (sp) are lawyers, and faculty members of Stanford Junior University Law School.
    Given the people running FTX apparently dipped into customer accounts to pay for homes for themselves and relatives, among other things, you'd think they could have at least advised their son that he was at best butting up against the law.

    They must be very proud of him - he claims to have been hopelessly bad at running FTX which is why it collapsed, and hasn't much to his name now as a result, but he could post a bail worth millions somehow, which shows real talent.
    He was living in his parents home in lieu of prison until recently . . . when judge revoked his home detention on grounds that he was, among other things, engaged in witness intimidation, against his old girl friend, who worked for FTX but apparently was NOT included in the prime dining car of the bit-coin mega-grifter super-train.
    Has anyone got a list of the financial crimes that weren’t committed at FTX?
    I suspect his parents were proud of him till he got caught. It is the american attitude among those echelelons...rip people off all good..get caught you are a failure. Our similar class are exactly the same as I suspect are the elite of most countries
    They're probably still proud - he still obviously has some amount of ill gotten gains left, which won't be totally eaten up by the criminal trial, which they can benefit from.

    But then the civil complaints are still to come I believe.

    If I ever have kids they are free to still love me but believe I should go to prison for any crimes I commit.
    I should my kids should. It seems to be an attitude only prevalent among the little people though. I won't speak for everyone but frankly I am getting fed up with people taking the piss and getting off because they know people. Avoiding prison when someone like me would get it for far less and failing yet getting a good pay off and a promotion. Time we turn round and do something about it
    You say you want a revolution?

    Well, you know, we all want to change the world.
    I didn't say I wanted a revolution. You misread me. I don't want a revolution because all it means is we get the same shits doing the same stuff just different faces. What I want is people being held to account so they no longer feel they can get away with it.
    To give you an example...the lucy letby case....I want those managers on trial for complicity not allowed to be promoted elsewhere...or retire on health grounds. I want people like cressida dick to be on trial for her decisions that led to the assassination of an innocent electrician.

    Sometimes people make mistakes and I accept that. If those mistakes however lead to deaths or maimings then they should be held to the same standards as anyone else.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,275
    12 degrees is a bit cold for cricket, at Chester-le-Street.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,715

    My flight back from Gibraltar to Glasgow has just been cancelled.

    Now I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place!

    On the positive side you are not going to Glasgow. Been there for the last 7 days. Can't recommend it.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,778
    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    As a Twitter advertiser, I can assure everyone that the Orban interview has not been watched 60 million times.

    The Tweet containing the video has been seen 75 million times. The number of times the video has been viewed at all will be somewhere in the 2-10% range of that. And the number of people who watch more than the first two minutes will be dramatically smaller even than that.

    At most, a million people - and probably a lot fewer than that - will have watched the video all the way through.

    Leon was talking shite?


    Except I wasn’t talking shite, was I?

    I said exactly this in my original comments. Only a fraction of the bald number will actually watch the video

    “Tucker Carlson’s Orban interview is now up to 60 million views

    https://x.com/tuckercarlson/status/1696643892253466712?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Probably only a fraction of these will watch large chunks or the whole thing. But even if it’s just 20% that’s 12 million people”

    There you go.
    20% is ludicrous.

    The proportion of people on YouTube or Twitter or Instagram or Facebook who click the "play" button for stories in their feed is never more than 10%, and is usually more in the 4-6% range. Even if we assume that Carlson's Orban interview is at the high end of this, it would be 6 million people started viewing/listening.

    But the number of people who will have got more than two minutes in will be - again - at most 25%. How do I know? Because that's what the best channels on YouTube manage. Most people flick off after 30 seconds onto the next thing. Maybe Carlson is beating Mark Rober's % to 2 minutes stats; but I doubt it.

    But let's assume that (a) he gets to the absolute top of the "click play" charts, and gets 10%; and let's (b) assume that he matches the very best YouTube channels and gets 25% of people staying two minutes.

    That's 1.25 million people.

    Not 20 million.

    And that 1.25 million is taking very generous assumptions.
    He’s now on 85 million views

    At some point you have to accept this is a new phenomenon, so the normal rules MIGHT not apply
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    edited August 2023
    For a fascinating read, hit the button labeled "KBI questioning sheds new light on raid"

    Referring to the now-international infamous raid by small-town crap-cop on small-town newspaper that incidentally was investigating his allegedly sleazy background.

    http://marionrecord.com/

    Note small but potentially significant remark by Kansas state attorney general Kris Kobach, a nationally-notable right-wing nut-job and previously failed candidate for governor and US senator.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 21,819

    Btw, have order pending for copy of Almanac of American Politics 2024; when I placed order was told would receive mid-September (or a few days earlier IF more paid, which I did not).

    Couple weeks ago, got email saying that delivery date had been pushed back, and I would be told new date in subsequent email. Which so far has NOT been forthcoming.

    Note that I have every edition of AoAP since first edition (1972). Hasn't been all that great for last few decades, but want to keep up the collection.

    Three titles were produced by the British Government from 1954-2005 describing 'how Britain worked'. They were: 'Britain: An official handbook' (1954-1998), 'Britain: The official yearbook of the United Kingdom' (1999-2001), and 'UK: The official yearbook of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland' (2002-2005). These 50 reports provided an overview of Britain's economic, social and cultural affairs, its environment, international relations, and the systems of government. They gave an impartial summary of government policies and initiatives, and explain how public services were organised.

    I have many of the physical copies (tho not all) but they are also available online. They are:

    'Britain: An official handbook' (1954-1998)
    https://digital.nls.uk/britain-and-uk-handbooks/archive/207357489

    'Britain: The official yearbook of the United Kingdom' (1999-2001),
    https://digital.nls.uk/britain-and-uk-handbooks/archive/207357490

    'UK: The official yearbook of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland' (2002-2005)
    https://digital.nls.uk/britain-and-uk-handbooks/archive/207357491
    https://www.data.gov.uk/dataset/73e7100e-7e40-4762-8939-3b71193c6b4f/the-official-yearbook-of-the-united-kingdom
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,640

    My flight back from Gibraltar to Glasgow has just been cancelled.

    Now I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place!

    Point of pedantry: dear green place.
  • DavidL said:

    My flight back from Gibraltar to Glasgow has just been cancelled.

    Now I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place!

    On the positive side you are not going to Glasgow. Been there for the last 7 days. Can't recommend it.
    Last time I was in Glasgow I incited a riot.

    Apparently saying I’d rather eat the shavings from a ped egg rather than eat Glaswegian food isn’t a wise move.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,595
    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kle4 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Anyone else looking forward to the Sam Bankman-Fried fraud trial later this year? It seems astonishing so many people bought into what was, at best, utterly incompetent blustering (that is his own defence after all, that he;'s an idiot not a crook), but the crypto world seems fertile ground for scammers.

    Prosecutors have just written to the judge rebutting some of his attempts to get evidence excluded, some of which are pretty creative if prosecutors are accurate.

    Notably, the defendant now complains about something he previously requested: on April 22, 2023, in a letter demand the defendant asked for a copy of all Slack messages, and his counsel reiterated that request on a telephone call four days later. It cannot be that the defendant can strategically make a record of discovery he claims he is entitled to but is not getting, and then when he gets it, move to preclude its use

    https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.nysd.590939/gov.uscourts.nysd.590939.237.0.pdf

    They're also trying to bar all of the expert witnesses he wants to call in a separate matter. Should be fun, and has been surprisingly fast moving.

    Fun fact - both parents of Bankman-Fraud (sp) are lawyers, and faculty members of Stanford Junior University Law School.
    Given the people running FTX apparently dipped into customer accounts to pay for homes for themselves and relatives, among other things, you'd think they could have at least advised their son that he was at best butting up against the law.

    They must be very proud of him - he claims to have been hopelessly bad at running FTX which is why it collapsed, and hasn't much to his name now as a result, but he could post a bail worth millions somehow, which shows real talent.
    He was living in his parents home in lieu of prison until recently . . . when judge revoked his home detention on grounds that he was, among other things, engaged in witness intimidation, against his old girl friend, who worked for FTX but apparently was NOT included in the prime dining car of the bit-coin mega-grifter super-train.
    Has anyone got a list of the financial crimes that weren’t committed at FTX?
    I suspect his parents were proud of him till he got caught. It is the american attitude among those echelelons...rip people off all good..get caught you are a failure. Our similar class are exactly the same as I suspect are the elite of most countries
    They're probably still proud - he still obviously has some amount of ill gotten gains left, which won't be totally eaten up by the criminal trial, which they can benefit from.

    But then the civil complaints are still to come I believe.

    If I ever have kids they are free to still love me but believe I should go to prison for any crimes I commit.
    I should my kids should. It seems to be an attitude only prevalent among the little people though. I won't speak for everyone but frankly I am getting fed up with people taking the piss and getting off because they know people. Avoiding prison when someone like me would get it for far less and failing yet getting a good pay off and a promotion. Time we turn round and do something about it
    You say you want a revolution?

    Well, you know, we all want to change the world.
    I didn't say I wanted a revolution. You misread me. I don't want a revolution because all it means is we get the same shits doing the same stuff just different faces. What I want is people being held to account so they no longer feel they can get away with it.
    You say you got a real solution
    Well, you know
    We'd all love to see the plan
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,269

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Anyone else looking forward to the Sam Bankman-Fried fraud trial later this year? It seems astonishing so many people bought into what was, at best, utterly incompetent blustering (that is his own defence after all, that he;'s an idiot not a crook), but the crypto world seems fertile ground for scammers.

    Prosecutors have just written to the judge rebutting some of his attempts to get evidence excluded, some of which are pretty creative if prosecutors are accurate.

    Notably, the defendant now complains about something he previously requested: on April 22, 2023, in a letter demand the defendant asked for a copy of all Slack messages, and his counsel reiterated that request on a telephone call four days later. It cannot be that the defendant can strategically make a record of discovery he claims he is entitled to but is not getting, and then when he gets it, move to preclude its use

    https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.nysd.590939/gov.uscourts.nysd.590939.237.0.pdf

    They're also trying to bar all of the expert witnesses he wants to call in a separate matter. Should be fun, and has been surprisingly fast moving.

    Fun fact - both parents of Bankman-Fraud (sp) are lawyers, and faculty members of Stanford Junior University Law School.
    Given the people running FTX apparently dipped into customer accounts to pay for homes for themselves and relatives, among other things, you'd think they could have at least advised their son that he was at best butting up against the law.

    They must be very proud of him - he claims to have been hopelessly bad at running FTX which is why it collapsed, and hasn't much to his name now as a result, but he could post a bail worth millions somehow, which shows real talent.
    He was living in his parents home in lieu of prison until recently . . . when judge revoked his home detention on grounds that he was, among other things, engaged in witness intimidation, against his old girl friend, who worked for FTX but apparently was NOT included in the prime dining car of the bit-coin mega-grifter super-train.
    Has anyone got a list of the financial crimes that weren’t committed at FTX?
    Some wise woman wrote this in March this year when discussing the collapse of Silicon Valley Bank -

    "Forbes is not having much luck recently. Their edition titled the “40th Annual Forbes 400″ featured on its cover Sam Bankman-Fried of FTX, which collapsed in November 2022. His youth – 29 – was highlighted. As well as this delightfully revealing quote: “I got involved in crypto without any idea what crypto was.”

    (I am, unashamedly, going to toot my own trumpet and remind you – if anyone needs reminding – that when these scandals and collapses happen, there is always a bloody great clue (often more than one) staring you in the face. Though they don’t always get the full colour treatment on the cover of prestigious magazines.)
    "
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,195
    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kle4 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Anyone else looking forward to the Sam Bankman-Fried fraud trial later this year? It seems astonishing so many people bought into what was, at best, utterly incompetent blustering (that is his own defence after all, that he;'s an idiot not a crook), but the crypto world seems fertile ground for scammers.

    Prosecutors have just written to the judge rebutting some of his attempts to get evidence excluded, some of which are pretty creative if prosecutors are accurate.

    Notably, the defendant now complains about something he previously requested: on April 22, 2023, in a letter demand the defendant asked for a copy of all Slack messages, and his counsel reiterated that request on a telephone call four days later. It cannot be that the defendant can strategically make a record of discovery he claims he is entitled to but is not getting, and then when he gets it, move to preclude its use

    https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.nysd.590939/gov.uscourts.nysd.590939.237.0.pdf

    They're also trying to bar all of the expert witnesses he wants to call in a separate matter. Should be fun, and has been surprisingly fast moving.

    Fun fact - both parents of Bankman-Fraud (sp) are lawyers, and faculty members of Stanford Junior University Law School.
    Given the people running FTX apparently dipped into customer accounts to pay for homes for themselves and relatives, among other things, you'd think they could have at least advised their son that he was at best butting up against the law.

    They must be very proud of him - he claims to have been hopelessly bad at running FTX which is why it collapsed, and hasn't much to his name now as a result, but he could post a bail worth millions somehow, which shows real talent.
    He was living in his parents home in lieu of prison until recently . . . when judge revoked his home detention on grounds that he was, among other things, engaged in witness intimidation, against his old girl friend, who worked for FTX but apparently was NOT included in the prime dining car of the bit-coin mega-grifter super-train.
    Has anyone got a list of the financial crimes that weren’t committed at FTX?
    I suspect his parents were proud of him till he got caught. It is the american attitude among those echelelons...rip people off all good..get caught you are a failure. Our similar class are exactly the same as I suspect are the elite of most countries
    They're probably still proud - he still obviously has some amount of ill gotten gains left, which won't be totally eaten up by the criminal trial, which they can benefit from.

    But then the civil complaints are still to come I believe.

    If I ever have kids they are free to still love me but believe I should go to prison for any crimes I commit.
    I should my kids should. It seems to be an attitude only prevalent among the little people though. I won't speak for everyone but frankly I am getting fed up with people taking the piss and getting off because they know people. Avoiding prison when someone like me would get it for far less and failing yet getting a good pay off and a promotion. Time we turn round and do something about it
    You say you want a revolution?

    Well, you know, we all want to change the world.
    I didn't say I wanted a revolution. You misread me. I don't want a revolution because all it means is we get the same shits doing the same stuff just different faces. What I want is people being held to account so they no longer feel they can get away with it.
    To give you an example...the lucy letby case....I want those managers on trial for complicity not allowed to be promoted elsewhere...or retire on health grounds. I want people like cressida dick to be on trial for her decisions that led to the assassination of an innocent electrician.

    Sometimes people make mistakes and I accept that. If those mistakes however lead to deaths or maimings then they should be held to the same standards as anyone else.
    As long as it’s a fair trial, that’s fine, but you seem to have decided, based solely on media reports, that they are guilty (specifically the Letby case). There has been media reports with only one take on events. It may be that the managers were egregiously bad in what they did. However I suspect that it is a very infrequent occurrence to be managing a serial killer, and normalcy bias tends to make people very cautious about suggesting such a thing.
    It’s possible that the managers were conned by Letby, that she was plausible and convincing. Many psychopaths can be charming. If the managers were fooled, what crime have they committed?

    By all means investigate. If there is a reasonable chance of a conviction (I have no idea for what) then bring a case. If they are found guilty then fine.

    But please do not find guilty on just media alone.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,849

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kle4 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Anyone else looking forward to the Sam Bankman-Fried fraud trial later this year? It seems astonishing so many people bought into what was, at best, utterly incompetent blustering (that is his own defence after all, that he;'s an idiot not a crook), but the crypto world seems fertile ground for scammers.

    Prosecutors have just written to the judge rebutting some of his attempts to get evidence excluded, some of which are pretty creative if prosecutors are accurate.

    Notably, the defendant now complains about something he previously requested: on April 22, 2023, in a letter demand the defendant asked for a copy of all Slack messages, and his counsel reiterated that request on a telephone call four days later. It cannot be that the defendant can strategically make a record of discovery he claims he is entitled to but is not getting, and then when he gets it, move to preclude its use

    https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.nysd.590939/gov.uscourts.nysd.590939.237.0.pdf

    They're also trying to bar all of the expert witnesses he wants to call in a separate matter. Should be fun, and has been surprisingly fast moving.

    Fun fact - both parents of Bankman-Fraud (sp) are lawyers, and faculty members of Stanford Junior University Law School.
    Given the people running FTX apparently dipped into customer accounts to pay for homes for themselves and relatives, among other things, you'd think they could have at least advised their son that he was at best butting up against the law.

    They must be very proud of him - he claims to have been hopelessly bad at running FTX which is why it collapsed, and hasn't much to his name now as a result, but he could post a bail worth millions somehow, which shows real talent.
    He was living in his parents home in lieu of prison until recently . . . when judge revoked his home detention on grounds that he was, among other things, engaged in witness intimidation, against his old girl friend, who worked for FTX but apparently was NOT included in the prime dining car of the bit-coin mega-grifter super-train.
    Has anyone got a list of the financial crimes that weren’t committed at FTX?
    I suspect his parents were proud of him till he got caught. It is the american attitude among those echelelons...rip people off all good..get caught you are a failure. Our similar class are exactly the same as I suspect are the elite of most countries
    They're probably still proud - he still obviously has some amount of ill gotten gains left, which won't be totally eaten up by the criminal trial, which they can benefit from.

    But then the civil complaints are still to come I believe.

    If I ever have kids they are free to still love me but believe I should go to prison for any crimes I commit.
    I should my kids should. It seems to be an attitude only prevalent among the little people though. I won't speak for everyone but frankly I am getting fed up with people taking the piss and getting off because they know people. Avoiding prison when someone like me would get it for far less and failing yet getting a good pay off and a promotion. Time we turn round and do something about it
    You say you want a revolution?

    Well, you know, we all want to change the world.
    I didn't say I wanted a revolution. You misread me. I don't want a revolution because all it means is we get the same shits doing the same stuff just different faces. What I want is people being held to account so they no longer feel they can get away with it.
    You say you got a real solution
    Well, you know
    We'd all love to see the plan
    I did a plan in a thread header
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,640

    DavidL said:

    My flight back from Gibraltar to Glasgow has just been cancelled.

    Now I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place!

    On the positive side you are not going to Glasgow. Been there for the last 7 days. Can't recommend it.
    Last time I was in Glasgow I incited a riot.

    Apparently saying I’d rather eat the shavings from a ped egg rather than eat Glaswegian food isn’t a wise move.
    Have had some very edible meals in the museum restauro-greenhouse thingy at Kelvingrove Museum, and the House for an Art Lover at Bellahouston.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,935
    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    As a Twitter advertiser, I can assure everyone that the Orban interview has not been watched 60 million times.

    The Tweet containing the video has been seen 75 million times. The number of times the video has been viewed at all will be somewhere in the 2-10% range of that. And the number of people who watch more than the first two minutes will be dramatically smaller even than that.

    At most, a million people - and probably a lot fewer than that - will have watched the video all the way through.

    Leon was talking shite?


    Except I wasn’t talking shite, was I?

    I said exactly this in my original comments. Only a fraction of the bald number will actually watch the video

    “Tucker Carlson’s Orban interview is now up to 60 million views

    https://x.com/tuckercarlson/status/1696643892253466712?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Probably only a fraction of these will watch large chunks or the whole thing. But even if it’s just 20% that’s 12 million people”

    There you go.
    20% is ludicrous.

    The proportion of people on YouTube or Twitter or Instagram or Facebook who click the "play" button for stories in their feed is never more than 10%, and is usually more in the 4-6% range. Even if we assume that Carlson's Orban interview is at the high end of this, it would be 6 million people started viewing/listening.

    But the number of people who will have got more than two minutes in will be - again - at most 25%. How do I know? Because that's what the best channels on YouTube manage. Most people flick off after 30 seconds onto the next thing. Maybe Carlson is beating Mark Rober's % to 2 minutes stats; but I doubt it.

    But let's assume that (a) he gets to the absolute top of the "click play" charts, and gets 10%; and let's (b) assume that he matches the very best YouTube channels and gets 25% of people staying two minutes.

    That's 1.25 million people.

    Not 20 million.

    And that 1.25 million is taking very generous assumptions.
    He’s now on 85 million views

    At some point you have to accept this is a new phenomenon, so the normal rules MIGHT not apply
    Why don't you put your money where your mouth is.

    We'll pay for a question to be put on a US YouGov poll, and ask how many people have watched the Orban Carlson interview on X/Twitter?

    If more than 8% of American adults have watched it, then you win, and I pay for the poll.

    If fewer, then I win and you pay.

  • Glad I took the 11/1 on Donny this morning.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,849

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kle4 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Anyone else looking forward to the Sam Bankman-Fried fraud trial later this year? It seems astonishing so many people bought into what was, at best, utterly incompetent blustering (that is his own defence after all, that he;'s an idiot not a crook), but the crypto world seems fertile ground for scammers.

    Prosecutors have just written to the judge rebutting some of his attempts to get evidence excluded, some of which are pretty creative if prosecutors are accurate.

    Notably, the defendant now complains about something he previously requested: on April 22, 2023, in a letter demand the defendant asked for a copy of all Slack messages, and his counsel reiterated that request on a telephone call four days later. It cannot be that the defendant can strategically make a record of discovery he claims he is entitled to but is not getting, and then when he gets it, move to preclude its use

    https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.nysd.590939/gov.uscourts.nysd.590939.237.0.pdf

    They're also trying to bar all of the expert witnesses he wants to call in a separate matter. Should be fun, and has been surprisingly fast moving.

    Fun fact - both parents of Bankman-Fraud (sp) are lawyers, and faculty members of Stanford Junior University Law School.
    Given the people running FTX apparently dipped into customer accounts to pay for homes for themselves and relatives, among other things, you'd think they could have at least advised their son that he was at best butting up against the law.

    They must be very proud of him - he claims to have been hopelessly bad at running FTX which is why it collapsed, and hasn't much to his name now as a result, but he could post a bail worth millions somehow, which shows real talent.
    He was living in his parents home in lieu of prison until recently . . . when judge revoked his home detention on grounds that he was, among other things, engaged in witness intimidation, against his old girl friend, who worked for FTX but apparently was NOT included in the prime dining car of the bit-coin mega-grifter super-train.
    Has anyone got a list of the financial crimes that weren’t committed at FTX?
    I suspect his parents were proud of him till he got caught. It is the american attitude among those echelelons...rip people off all good..get caught you are a failure. Our similar class are exactly the same as I suspect are the elite of most countries
    They're probably still proud - he still obviously has some amount of ill gotten gains left, which won't be totally eaten up by the criminal trial, which they can benefit from.

    But then the civil complaints are still to come I believe.

    If I ever have kids they are free to still love me but believe I should go to prison for any crimes I commit.
    I should my kids should. It seems to be an attitude only prevalent among the little people though. I won't speak for everyone but frankly I am getting fed up with people taking the piss and getting off because they know people. Avoiding prison when someone like me would get it for far less and failing yet getting a good pay off and a promotion. Time we turn round and do something about it
    You say you want a revolution?

    Well, you know, we all want to change the world.
    I didn't say I wanted a revolution. You misread me. I don't want a revolution because all it means is we get the same shits doing the same stuff just different faces. What I want is people being held to account so they no longer feel they can get away with it.
    To give you an example...the lucy letby case....I want those managers on trial for complicity not allowed to be promoted elsewhere...or retire on health grounds. I want people like cressida dick to be on trial for her decisions that led to the assassination of an innocent electrician.

    Sometimes people make mistakes and I accept that. If those mistakes however lead to deaths or maimings then they should be held to the same standards as anyone else.
    As long as it’s a fair trial, that’s fine, but you seem to have decided, based solely on media reports, that they are guilty (specifically the Letby case). There has been media reports with only one take on events. It may be that the managers were egregiously bad in what they did. However I suspect that it is a very infrequent occurrence to be managing a serial killer, and normalcy bias tends to make people very cautious about suggesting such a thing.
    It’s possible that the managers were conned by Letby, that she was plausible and convincing. Many psychopaths can be charming. If the managers were fooled, what crime have they committed?

    By all means investigate. If there is a reasonable chance of a conviction (I have no idea for what) then bring a case. If they are found guilty then fine.

    But please do not find guilty on just media alone.
    The letby case the jury found her guilty. I think the management that ignored people and made them apologise should also be on trial....not on trial...they are innocent till a jury convicts but they should be tried.

    Same with the post office management over horizons.

    I ask for them to be tried not claimed they were guilty.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,640

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kle4 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Anyone else looking forward to the Sam Bankman-Fried fraud trial later this year? It seems astonishing so many people bought into what was, at best, utterly incompetent blustering (that is his own defence after all, that he;'s an idiot not a crook), but the crypto world seems fertile ground for scammers.

    Prosecutors have just written to the judge rebutting some of his attempts to get evidence excluded, some of which are pretty creative if prosecutors are accurate.

    Notably, the defendant now complains about something he previously requested: on April 22, 2023, in a letter demand the defendant asked for a copy of all Slack messages, and his counsel reiterated that request on a telephone call four days later. It cannot be that the defendant can strategically make a record of discovery he claims he is entitled to but is not getting, and then when he gets it, move to preclude its use

    https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.nysd.590939/gov.uscourts.nysd.590939.237.0.pdf

    They're also trying to bar all of the expert witnesses he wants to call in a separate matter. Should be fun, and has been surprisingly fast moving.

    Fun fact - both parents of Bankman-Fraud (sp) are lawyers, and faculty members of Stanford Junior University Law School.
    Given the people running FTX apparently dipped into customer accounts to pay for homes for themselves and relatives, among other things, you'd think they could have at least advised their son that he was at best butting up against the law.

    They must be very proud of him - he claims to have been hopelessly bad at running FTX which is why it collapsed, and hasn't much to his name now as a result, but he could post a bail worth millions somehow, which shows real talent.
    He was living in his parents home in lieu of prison until recently . . . when judge revoked his home detention on grounds that he was, among other things, engaged in witness intimidation, against his old girl friend, who worked for FTX but apparently was NOT included in the prime dining car of the bit-coin mega-grifter super-train.
    Has anyone got a list of the financial crimes that weren’t committed at FTX?
    I suspect his parents were proud of him till he got caught. It is the american attitude among those echelelons...rip people off all good..get caught you are a failure. Our similar class are exactly the same as I suspect are the elite of most countries
    They're probably still proud - he still obviously has some amount of ill gotten gains left, which won't be totally eaten up by the criminal trial, which they can benefit from.

    But then the civil complaints are still to come I believe.

    If I ever have kids they are free to still love me but believe I should go to prison for any crimes I commit.
    I should my kids should. It seems to be an attitude only prevalent among the little people though. I won't speak for everyone but frankly I am getting fed up with people taking the piss and getting off because they know people. Avoiding prison when someone like me would get it for far less and failing yet getting a good pay off and a promotion. Time we turn round and do something about it
    You say you want a revolution?

    Well, you know, we all want to change the world.
    I didn't say I wanted a revolution. You misread me. I don't want a revolution because all it means is we get the same shits doing the same stuff just different faces. What I want is people being held to account so they no longer feel they can get away with it.
    To give you an example...the lucy letby case....I want those managers on trial for complicity not allowed to be promoted elsewhere...or retire on health grounds. I want people like cressida dick to be on trial for her decisions that led to the assassination of an innocent electrician.

    Sometimes people make mistakes and I accept that. If those mistakes however lead to deaths or maimings then they should be held to the same standards as anyone else.
    As long as it’s a fair trial, that’s fine, but you seem to have decided, based solely on media reports, that they are guilty (specifically the Letby case). There has been media reports with only one take on events. It may be that the managers were egregiously bad in what they did. However I suspect that it is a very infrequent occurrence to be managing a serial killer, and normalcy bias tends to make people very cautious about suggesting such a thing.
    It’s possible that the managers were conned by Letby, that she was plausible and convincing. Many psychopaths can be charming. If the managers were fooled, what crime have they committed?

    By all means investigate. If there is a reasonable chance of a conviction (I have no idea for what) then bring a case. If they are found guilty then fine.

    But please do not find guilty on just media alone.
    Jus\t noticed this: HMG had to drop plans to makje the inquiry non-statutory, so now they can compel witneses, with current and former staff especially in mind it seems. But no judge, no remit yet.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/aug/30/lucy-letby-inquiry-will-have-power-to-force-witnesses-to-give-evidence
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,195
    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kle4 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Anyone else looking forward to the Sam Bankman-Fried fraud trial later this year? It seems astonishing so many people bought into what was, at best, utterly incompetent blustering (that is his own defence after all, that he;'s an idiot not a crook), but the crypto world seems fertile ground for scammers.

    Prosecutors have just written to the judge rebutting some of his attempts to get evidence excluded, some of which are pretty creative if prosecutors are accurate.

    Notably, the defendant now complains about something he previously requested: on April 22, 2023, in a letter demand the defendant asked for a copy of all Slack messages, and his counsel reiterated that request on a telephone call four days later. It cannot be that the defendant can strategically make a record of discovery he claims he is entitled to but is not getting, and then when he gets it, move to preclude its use

    https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.nysd.590939/gov.uscourts.nysd.590939.237.0.pdf

    They're also trying to bar all of the expert witnesses he wants to call in a separate matter. Should be fun, and has been surprisingly fast moving.

    Fun fact - both parents of Bankman-Fraud (sp) are lawyers, and faculty members of Stanford Junior University Law School.
    Given the people running FTX apparently dipped into customer accounts to pay for homes for themselves and relatives, among other things, you'd think they could have at least advised their son that he was at best butting up against the law.

    They must be very proud of him - he claims to have been hopelessly bad at running FTX which is why it collapsed, and hasn't much to his name now as a result, but he could post a bail worth millions somehow, which shows real talent.
    He was living in his parents home in lieu of prison until recently . . . when judge revoked his home detention on grounds that he was, among other things, engaged in witness intimidation, against his old girl friend, who worked for FTX but apparently was NOT included in the prime dining car of the bit-coin mega-grifter super-train.
    Has anyone got a list of the financial crimes that weren’t committed at FTX?
    I suspect his parents were proud of him till he got caught. It is the american attitude among those echelelons...rip people off all good..get caught you are a failure. Our similar class are exactly the same as I suspect are the elite of most countries
    They're probably still proud - he still obviously has some amount of ill gotten gains left, which won't be totally eaten up by the criminal trial, which they can benefit from.

    But then the civil complaints are still to come I believe.

    If I ever have kids they are free to still love me but believe I should go to prison for any crimes I commit.
    I should my kids should. It seems to be an attitude only prevalent among the little people though. I won't speak for everyone but frankly I am getting fed up with people taking the piss and getting off because they know people. Avoiding prison when someone like me would get it for far less and failing yet getting a good pay off and a promotion. Time we turn round and do something about it
    You say you want a revolution?

    Well, you know, we all want to change the world.
    I didn't say I wanted a revolution. You misread me. I don't want a revolution because all it means is we get the same shits doing the same stuff just different faces. What I want is people being held to account so they no longer feel they can get away with it.
    To give you an example...the lucy letby case....I want those managers on trial for complicity not allowed to be promoted elsewhere...or retire on health grounds. I want people like cressida dick to be on trial for her decisions that led to the assassination of an innocent electrician.

    Sometimes people make mistakes and I accept that. If those mistakes however lead to deaths or maimings then they should be held to the same standards as anyone else.
    As long as it’s a fair trial, that’s fine, but you seem to have decided, based solely on media reports, that they are guilty (specifically the Letby case). There has been media reports with only one take on events. It may be that the managers were egregiously bad in what they did. However I suspect that it is a very infrequent occurrence to be managing a serial killer, and normalcy bias tends to make people very cautious about suggesting such a thing.
    It’s possible that the managers were conned by Letby, that she was plausible and convincing. Many psychopaths can be charming. If the managers were fooled, what crime have they committed?

    By all means investigate. If there is a reasonable chance of a conviction (I have no idea for what) then bring a case. If they are found guilty then fine.

    But please do not find guilty on just media alone.
    The letby case the jury found her guilty. I think the management that ignored people and made them apologise should also be on trial....not on trial...they are innocent till a jury convicts but they should be tried.

    Same with the post office management over horizons.

    I ask for them to be tried not claimed they were guilty.
    You rather did though, but saying they shouldn’t be promoted o4 should be retired on health grounds. Was that not your meaning?

    As with the PO, it seems that there is culpability, so find the evidence, make the case and put people on trial. It’s possible that managers there were deceived too, but try the evidence.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,849
    Carnyx said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kle4 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Anyone else looking forward to the Sam Bankman-Fried fraud trial later this year? It seems astonishing so many people bought into what was, at best, utterly incompetent blustering (that is his own defence after all, that he;'s an idiot not a crook), but the crypto world seems fertile ground for scammers.

    Prosecutors have just written to the judge rebutting some of his attempts to get evidence excluded, some of which are pretty creative if prosecutors are accurate.

    Notably, the defendant now complains about something he previously requested: on April 22, 2023, in a letter demand the defendant asked for a copy of all Slack messages, and his counsel reiterated that request on a telephone call four days later. It cannot be that the defendant can strategically make a record of discovery he claims he is entitled to but is not getting, and then when he gets it, move to preclude its use

    https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.nysd.590939/gov.uscourts.nysd.590939.237.0.pdf

    They're also trying to bar all of the expert witnesses he wants to call in a separate matter. Should be fun, and has been surprisingly fast moving.

    Fun fact - both parents of Bankman-Fraud (sp) are lawyers, and faculty members of Stanford Junior University Law School.
    Given the people running FTX apparently dipped into customer accounts to pay for homes for themselves and relatives, among other things, you'd think they could have at least advised their son that he was at best butting up against the law.

    They must be very proud of him - he claims to have been hopelessly bad at running FTX which is why it collapsed, and hasn't much to his name now as a result, but he could post a bail worth millions somehow, which shows real talent.
    He was living in his parents home in lieu of prison until recently . . . when judge revoked his home detention on grounds that he was, among other things, engaged in witness intimidation, against his old girl friend, who worked for FTX but apparently was NOT included in the prime dining car of the bit-coin mega-grifter super-train.
    Has anyone got a list of the financial crimes that weren’t committed at FTX?
    I suspect his parents were proud of him till he got caught. It is the american attitude among those echelelons...rip people off all good..get caught you are a failure. Our similar class are exactly the same as I suspect are the elite of most countries
    They're probably still proud - he still obviously has some amount of ill gotten gains left, which won't be totally eaten up by the criminal trial, which they can benefit from.

    But then the civil complaints are still to come I believe.

    If I ever have kids they are free to still love me but believe I should go to prison for any crimes I commit.
    I should my kids should. It seems to be an attitude only prevalent among the little people though. I won't speak for everyone but frankly I am getting fed up with people taking the piss and getting off because they know people. Avoiding prison when someone like me would get it for far less and failing yet getting a good pay off and a promotion. Time we turn round and do something about it
    You say you want a revolution?

    Well, you know, we all want to change the world.
    I didn't say I wanted a revolution. You misread me. I don't want a revolution because all it means is we get the same shits doing the same stuff just different faces. What I want is people being held to account so they no longer feel they can get away with it.
    To give you an example...the lucy letby case....I want those managers on trial for complicity not allowed to be promoted elsewhere...or retire on health grounds. I want people like cressida dick to be on trial for her decisions that led to the assassination of an innocent electrician.

    Sometimes people make mistakes and I accept that. If those mistakes however lead to deaths or maimings then they should be held to the same standards as anyone else.
    As long as it’s a fair trial, that’s fine, but you seem to have decided, based solely on media reports, that they are guilty (specifically the Letby case). There has been media reports with only one take on events. It may be that the managers were egregiously bad in what they did. However I suspect that it is a very infrequent occurrence to be managing a serial killer, and normalcy bias tends to make people very cautious about suggesting such a thing.
    It’s possible that the managers were conned by Letby, that she was plausible and convincing. Many psychopaths can be charming. If the managers were fooled, what crime have they committed?

    By all means investigate. If there is a reasonable chance of a conviction (I have no idea for what) then bring a case. If they are found guilty then fine.

    But please do not find guilty on just media alone.
    Jus\t noticed this: HMG had to drop plans to makje the inquiry non-statutory, so now they can compel witneses, with current and former staff especially in mind it seems. But no judge, no remit yet.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/aug/30/lucy-letby-inquiry-will-have-power-to-force-witnesses-to-give-evidence
    My point was really too often people seem to escape justice because they are too high up. I dont want them found summarily guilty. I do want their culpability examined in court and if charges are relevant they should be charged. Instead currently they seem to get a golden payoff and a promotion
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,849

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kle4 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Anyone else looking forward to the Sam Bankman-Fried fraud trial later this year? It seems astonishing so many people bought into what was, at best, utterly incompetent blustering (that is his own defence after all, that he;'s an idiot not a crook), but the crypto world seems fertile ground for scammers.

    Prosecutors have just written to the judge rebutting some of his attempts to get evidence excluded, some of which are pretty creative if prosecutors are accurate.

    Notably, the defendant now complains about something he previously requested: on April 22, 2023, in a letter demand the defendant asked for a copy of all Slack messages, and his counsel reiterated that request on a telephone call four days later. It cannot be that the defendant can strategically make a record of discovery he claims he is entitled to but is not getting, and then when he gets it, move to preclude its use

    https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.nysd.590939/gov.uscourts.nysd.590939.237.0.pdf

    They're also trying to bar all of the expert witnesses he wants to call in a separate matter. Should be fun, and has been surprisingly fast moving.

    Fun fact - both parents of Bankman-Fraud (sp) are lawyers, and faculty members of Stanford Junior University Law School.
    Given the people running FTX apparently dipped into customer accounts to pay for homes for themselves and relatives, among other things, you'd think they could have at least advised their son that he was at best butting up against the law.

    They must be very proud of him - he claims to have been hopelessly bad at running FTX which is why it collapsed, and hasn't much to his name now as a result, but he could post a bail worth millions somehow, which shows real talent.
    He was living in his parents home in lieu of prison until recently . . . when judge revoked his home detention on grounds that he was, among other things, engaged in witness intimidation, against his old girl friend, who worked for FTX but apparently was NOT included in the prime dining car of the bit-coin mega-grifter super-train.
    Has anyone got a list of the financial crimes that weren’t committed at FTX?
    I suspect his parents were proud of him till he got caught. It is the american attitude among those echelelons...rip people off all good..get caught you are a failure. Our similar class are exactly the same as I suspect are the elite of most countries
    They're probably still proud - he still obviously has some amount of ill gotten gains left, which won't be totally eaten up by the criminal trial, which they can benefit from.

    But then the civil complaints are still to come I believe.

    If I ever have kids they are free to still love me but believe I should go to prison for any crimes I commit.
    I should my kids should. It seems to be an attitude only prevalent among the little people though. I won't speak for everyone but frankly I am getting fed up with people taking the piss and getting off because they know people. Avoiding prison when someone like me would get it for far less and failing yet getting a good pay off and a promotion. Time we turn round and do something about it
    You say you want a revolution?

    Well, you know, we all want to change the world.
    I didn't say I wanted a revolution. You misread me. I don't want a revolution because all it means is we get the same shits doing the same stuff just different faces. What I want is people being held to account so they no longer feel they can get away with it.
    To give you an example...the lucy letby case....I want those managers on trial for complicity not allowed to be promoted elsewhere...or retire on health grounds. I want people like cressida dick to be on trial for her decisions that led to the assassination of an innocent electrician.

    Sometimes people make mistakes and I accept that. If those mistakes however lead to deaths or maimings then they should be held to the same standards as anyone else.
    As long as it’s a fair trial, that’s fine, but you seem to have decided, based solely on media reports, that they are guilty (specifically the Letby case). There has been media reports with only one take on events. It may be that the managers were egregiously bad in what they did. However I suspect that it is a very infrequent occurrence to be managing a serial killer, and normalcy bias tends to make people very cautious about suggesting such a thing.
    It’s possible that the managers were conned by Letby, that she was plausible and convincing. Many psychopaths can be charming. If the managers were fooled, what crime have they committed?

    By all means investigate. If there is a reasonable chance of a conviction (I have no idea for what) then bring a case. If they are found guilty then fine.

    But please do not find guilty on just media alone.
    The letby case the jury found her guilty. I think the management that ignored people and made them apologise should also be on trial....not on trial...they are innocent till a jury convicts but they should be tried.

    Same with the post office management over horizons.

    I ask for them to be tried not claimed they were guilty.
    You rather did though, but saying they shouldn’t be promoted o4 should be retired on health grounds. Was that not your meaning?

    As with the PO, it seems that there is culpability, so find the evidence, make the case and put people on trial. It’s possible that managers there were deceived too, but try the evidence.
    Yes but the difference is the powers that be aren't even going to bother with looking for evidence. You know it and I know it. These people will end up being moved at worse with a payoff and promotion.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,352
    We are being outplayed by Doncaster Rovers.
    Over 5 hours without a goal.
    Took 35 minutes to have a touch in their penalty area FFS. Against the bottom of the EFL.
  • rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    As a Twitter advertiser, I can assure everyone that the Orban interview has not been watched 60 million times.

    The Tweet containing the video has been seen 75 million times. The number of times the video has been viewed at all will be somewhere in the 2-10% range of that. And the number of people who watch more than the first two minutes will be dramatically smaller even than that.

    At most, a million people - and probably a lot fewer than that - will have watched the video all the way through.

    Leon was talking shite?


    Except I wasn’t talking shite, was I?

    I said exactly this in my original comments. Only a fraction of the bald number will actually watch the video

    “Tucker Carlson’s Orban interview is now up to 60 million views

    https://x.com/tuckercarlson/status/1696643892253466712?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Probably only a fraction of these will watch large chunks or the whole thing. But even if it’s just 20% that’s 12 million people”

    There you go.
    20% is ludicrous.

    The proportion of people on YouTube or Twitter or Instagram or Facebook who click the "play" button for stories in their feed is never more than 10%, and is usually more in the 4-6% range. Even if we assume that Carlson's Orban interview is at the high end of this, it would be 6 million people started viewing/listening.

    But the number of people who will have got more than two minutes in will be - again - at most 25%. How do I know? Because that's what the best channels on YouTube manage. Most people flick off after 30 seconds onto the next thing. Maybe Carlson is beating Mark Rober's % to 2 minutes stats; but I doubt it.

    But let's assume that (a) he gets to the absolute top of the "click play" charts, and gets 10%; and let's (b) assume that he matches the very best YouTube channels and gets 25% of people staying two minutes.

    That's 1.25 million people.

    Not 20 million.

    And that 1.25 million is taking very generous assumptions.
    He’s now on 85 million views

    At some point you have to accept this is a new phenomenon, so the normal rules MIGHT not apply
    Why don't you put your money where your mouth is.

    We'll pay for a question to be put on a US YouGov poll, and ask how many people have watched the Orban Carlson interview on X/Twitter?

    If more than 8% of American adults have watched it, then you win, and I pay for the poll.

    If fewer, then I win and you pay.

    Tech question: is there any way that bots and suchlike are prevented from creating "views" no real person is really viewing?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,715

    DavidL said:

    My flight back from Gibraltar to Glasgow has just been cancelled.

    Now I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place!

    On the positive side you are not going to Glasgow. Been there for the last 7 days. Can't recommend it.
    Last time I was in Glasgow I incited a riot.

    Apparently saying I’d rather eat the shavings from a ped egg rather than eat Glaswegian food isn’t a wise move.
    Fair comment. One or two decent Italians. That's pretty much it.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,640
    Pagan2 said:

    Carnyx said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kle4 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Anyone else looking forward to the Sam Bankman-Fried fraud trial later this year? It seems astonishing so many people bought into what was, at best, utterly incompetent blustering (that is his own defence after all, that he;'s an idiot not a crook), but the crypto world seems fertile ground for scammers.

    Prosecutors have just written to the judge rebutting some of his attempts to get evidence excluded, some of which are pretty creative if prosecutors are accurate.

    Notably, the defendant now complains about something he previously requested: on April 22, 2023, in a letter demand the defendant asked for a copy of all Slack messages, and his counsel reiterated that request on a telephone call four days later. It cannot be that the defendant can strategically make a record of discovery he claims he is entitled to but is not getting, and then when he gets it, move to preclude its use

    https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.nysd.590939/gov.uscourts.nysd.590939.237.0.pdf

    They're also trying to bar all of the expert witnesses he wants to call in a separate matter. Should be fun, and has been surprisingly fast moving.

    Fun fact - both parents of Bankman-Fraud (sp) are lawyers, and faculty members of Stanford Junior University Law School.
    Given the people running FTX apparently dipped into customer accounts to pay for homes for themselves and relatives, among other things, you'd think they could have at least advised their son that he was at best butting up against the law.

    They must be very proud of him - he claims to have been hopelessly bad at running FTX which is why it collapsed, and hasn't much to his name now as a result, but he could post a bail worth millions somehow, which shows real talent.
    He was living in his parents home in lieu of prison until recently . . . when judge revoked his home detention on grounds that he was, among other things, engaged in witness intimidation, against his old girl friend, who worked for FTX but apparently was NOT included in the prime dining car of the bit-coin mega-grifter super-train.
    Has anyone got a list of the financial crimes that weren’t committed at FTX?
    I suspect his parents were proud of him till he got caught. It is the american attitude among those echelelons...rip people off all good..get caught you are a failure. Our similar class are exactly the same as I suspect are the elite of most countries
    They're probably still proud - he still obviously has some amount of ill gotten gains left, which won't be totally eaten up by the criminal trial, which they can benefit from.

    But then the civil complaints are still to come I believe.

    If I ever have kids they are free to still love me but believe I should go to prison for any crimes I commit.
    I should my kids should. It seems to be an attitude only prevalent among the little people though. I won't speak for everyone but frankly I am getting fed up with people taking the piss and getting off because they know people. Avoiding prison when someone like me would get it for far less and failing yet getting a good pay off and a promotion. Time we turn round and do something about it
    You say you want a revolution?

    Well, you know, we all want to change the world.
    I didn't say I wanted a revolution. You misread me. I don't want a revolution because all it means is we get the same shits doing the same stuff just different faces. What I want is people being held to account so they no longer feel they can get away with it.
    To give you an example...the lucy letby case....I want those managers on trial for complicity not allowed to be promoted elsewhere...or retire on health grounds. I want people like cressida dick to be on trial for her decisions that led to the assassination of an innocent electrician.

    Sometimes people make mistakes and I accept that. If those mistakes however lead to deaths or maimings then they should be held to the same standards as anyone else.
    As long as it’s a fair trial, that’s fine, but you seem to have decided, based solely on media reports, that they are guilty (specifically the Letby case). There has been media reports with only one take on events. It may be that the managers were egregiously bad in what they did. However I suspect that it is a very infrequent occurrence to be managing a serial killer, and normalcy bias tends to make people very cautious about suggesting such a thing.
    It’s possible that the managers were conned by Letby, that she was plausible and convincing. Many psychopaths can be charming. If the managers were fooled, what crime have they committed?

    By all means investigate. If there is a reasonable chance of a conviction (I have no idea for what) then bring a case. If they are found guilty then fine.

    But please do not find guilty on just media alone.
    Jus\t noticed this: HMG had to drop plans to makje the inquiry non-statutory, so now they can compel witneses, with current and former staff especially in mind it seems. But no judge, no remit yet.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/aug/30/lucy-letby-inquiry-will-have-power-to-force-witnesses-to-give-evidence
    My point was really too often people seem to escape justice because they are too high up. I dont want them found summarily guilty. I do want their culpability examined in court and if charges are relevant they should be charged. Instead currently they seem to get a golden payoff and a promotion
    It does look as if the lawyers to the deceased children's families may get a go at examining them, depending always on what remit HMG gives.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,849
    Carnyx said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Carnyx said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kle4 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Anyone else looking forward to the Sam Bankman-Fried fraud trial later this year? It seems astonishing so many people bought into what was, at best, utterly incompetent blustering (that is his own defence after all, that he;'s an idiot not a crook), but the crypto world seems fertile ground for scammers.

    Prosecutors have just written to the judge rebutting some of his attempts to get evidence excluded, some of which are pretty creative if prosecutors are accurate.

    Notably, the defendant now complains about something he previously requested: on April 22, 2023, in a letter demand the defendant asked for a copy of all Slack messages, and his counsel reiterated that request on a telephone call four days later. It cannot be that the defendant can strategically make a record of discovery he claims he is entitled to but is not getting, and then when he gets it, move to preclude its use

    https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.nysd.590939/gov.uscourts.nysd.590939.237.0.pdf

    They're also trying to bar all of the expert witnesses he wants to call in a separate matter. Should be fun, and has been surprisingly fast moving.

    Fun fact - both parents of Bankman-Fraud (sp) are lawyers, and faculty members of Stanford Junior University Law School.
    Given the people running FTX apparently dipped into customer accounts to pay for homes for themselves and relatives, among other things, you'd think they could have at least advised their son that he was at best butting up against the law.

    They must be very proud of him - he claims to have been hopelessly bad at running FTX which is why it collapsed, and hasn't much to his name now as a result, but he could post a bail worth millions somehow, which shows real talent.
    He was living in his parents home in lieu of prison until recently . . . when judge revoked his home detention on grounds that he was, among other things, engaged in witness intimidation, against his old girl friend, who worked for FTX but apparently was NOT included in the prime dining car of the bit-coin mega-grifter super-train.
    Has anyone got a list of the financial crimes that weren’t committed at FTX?
    I suspect his parents were proud of him till he got caught. It is the american attitude among those echelelons...rip people off all good..get caught you are a failure. Our similar class are exactly the same as I suspect are the elite of most countries
    They're probably still proud - he still obviously has some amount of ill gotten gains left, which won't be totally eaten up by the criminal trial, which they can benefit from.

    But then the civil complaints are still to come I believe.

    If I ever have kids they are free to still love me but believe I should go to prison for any crimes I commit.
    I should my kids should. It seems to be an attitude only prevalent among the little people though. I won't speak for everyone but frankly I am getting fed up with people taking the piss and getting off because they know people. Avoiding prison when someone like me would get it for far less and failing yet getting a good pay off and a promotion. Time we turn round and do something about it
    You say you want a revolution?

    Well, you know, we all want to change the world.
    I didn't say I wanted a revolution. You misread me. I don't want a revolution because all it means is we get the same shits doing the same stuff just different faces. What I want is people being held to account so they no longer feel they can get away with it.
    To give you an example...the lucy letby case....I want those managers on trial for complicity not allowed to be promoted elsewhere...or retire on health grounds. I want people like cressida dick to be on trial for her decisions that led to the assassination of an innocent electrician.

    Sometimes people make mistakes and I accept that. If those mistakes however lead to deaths or maimings then they should be held to the same standards as anyone else.
    As long as it’s a fair trial, that’s fine, but you seem to have decided, based solely on media reports, that they are guilty (specifically the Letby case). There has been media reports with only one take on events. It may be that the managers were egregiously bad in what they did. However I suspect that it is a very infrequent occurrence to be managing a serial killer, and normalcy bias tends to make people very cautious about suggesting such a thing.
    It’s possible that the managers were conned by Letby, that she was plausible and convincing. Many psychopaths can be charming. If the managers were fooled, what crime have they committed?

    By all means investigate. If there is a reasonable chance of a conviction (I have no idea for what) then bring a case. If they are found guilty then fine.

    But please do not find guilty on just media alone.
    Jus\t noticed this: HMG had to drop plans to makje the inquiry non-statutory, so now they can compel witneses, with current and former staff especially in mind it seems. But no judge, no remit yet.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/aug/30/lucy-letby-inquiry-will-have-power-to-force-witnesses-to-give-evidence
    My point was really too often people seem to escape justice because they are too high up. I dont want them found summarily guilty. I do want their culpability examined in court and if charges are relevant they should be charged. Instead currently they seem to get a golden payoff and a promotion
    It does look as if the lawyers to the deceased children's families may get a go at examining them, depending always on what remit HMG gives.
    Examining them isnt enough the police should be looking at the events and passing a file to the cps if they were partly culpable.....same for the post office
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,821

    My flight back from Gibraltar to Glasgow has just been cancelled.

    Now I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place!

    There used to be a pub in the west end called the Rock, good for a late chichi pint. No longer there sadly.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,821
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    My flight back from Gibraltar to Glasgow has just been cancelled.

    Now I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place!

    On the positive side you are not going to Glasgow. Been there for the last 7 days. Can't recommend it.
    Last time I was in Glasgow I incited a riot.

    Apparently saying I’d rather eat the shavings from a ped egg rather than eat Glaswegian food isn’t a wise move.
    Fair comment. One or two decent Italians. That's pretty much it.
    You Dundonians are getting awfy picky..
  • AP (via Seattle Times) - Bee alert: 5 million bees fall off truck near Toronto and drivers are asked to close windows

    Ontario PBers pls beeware!
  • Did you know, that Lord Palmerston claimed descent from Lady Godiva?
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,195
    Pagan2 said:

    Carnyx said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Carnyx said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kle4 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Anyone else looking forward to the Sam Bankman-Fried fraud trial later this year? It seems astonishing so many people bought into what was, at best, utterly incompetent blustering (that is his own defence after all, that he;'s an idiot not a crook), but the crypto world seems fertile ground for scammers.

    Prosecutors have just written to the judge rebutting some of his attempts to get evidence excluded, some of which are pretty creative if prosecutors are accurate.

    Notably, the defendant now complains about something he previously requested: on April 22, 2023, in a letter demand the defendant asked for a copy of all Slack messages, and his counsel reiterated that request on a telephone call four days later. It cannot be that the defendant can strategically make a record of discovery he claims he is entitled to but is not getting, and then when he gets it, move to preclude its use

    https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.nysd.590939/gov.uscourts.nysd.590939.237.0.pdf

    They're also trying to bar all of the expert witnesses he wants to call in a separate matter. Should be fun, and has been surprisingly fast moving.

    Fun fact - both parents of Bankman-Fraud (sp) are lawyers, and faculty members of Stanford Junior University Law School.
    Given the people running FTX apparently dipped into customer accounts to pay for homes for themselves and relatives, among other things, you'd think they could have at least advised their son that he was at best butting up against the law.

    They must be very proud of him - he claims to have been hopelessly bad at running FTX which is why it collapsed, and hasn't much to his name now as a result, but he could post a bail worth millions somehow, which shows real talent.
    He was living in his parents home in lieu of prison until recently . . . when judge revoked his home detention on grounds that he was, among other things, engaged in witness intimidation, against his old girl friend, who worked for FTX but apparently was NOT included in the prime dining car of the bit-coin mega-grifter super-train.
    Has anyone got a list of the financial crimes that weren’t committed at FTX?
    I suspect his parents were proud of him till he got caught. It is the american attitude among those echelelons...rip people off all good..get caught you are a failure. Our similar class are exactly the same as I suspect are the elite of most countries
    They're probably still proud - he still obviously has some amount of ill gotten gains left, which won't be totally eaten up by the criminal trial, which they can benefit from.

    But then the civil complaints are still to come I believe.

    If I ever have kids they are free to still love me but believe I should go to prison for any crimes I commit.
    I should my kids should. It seems to be an attitude only prevalent among the little people though. I won't speak for everyone but frankly I am getting fed up with people taking the piss and getting off because they know people. Avoiding prison when someone like me would get it for far less and failing yet getting a good pay off and a promotion. Time we turn round and do something about it
    You say you want a revolution?

    Well, you know, we all want to change the world.
    I didn't say I wanted a revolution. You misread me. I don't want a revolution because all it means is we get the same shits doing the same stuff just different faces. What I want is people being held to account so they no longer feel they can get away with it.
    To give you an example...the lucy letby case....I want those managers on trial for complicity not allowed to be promoted elsewhere...or retire on health grounds. I want people like cressida dick to be on trial for her decisions that led to the assassination of an innocent electrician.

    Sometimes people make mistakes and I accept that. If those mistakes however lead to deaths or maimings then they should be held to the same standards as anyone else.
    As long as it’s a fair trial, that’s fine, but you seem to have decided, based solely on media reports, that they are guilty (specifically the Letby case). There has been media reports with only one take on events. It may be that the managers were egregiously bad in what they did. However I suspect that it is a very infrequent occurrence to be managing a serial killer, and normalcy bias tends to make people very cautious about suggesting such a thing.
    It’s possible that the managers were conned by Letby, that she was plausible and convincing. Many psychopaths can be charming. If the managers were fooled, what crime have they committed?

    By all means investigate. If there is a reasonable chance of a conviction (I have no idea for what) then bring a case. If they are found guilty then fine.

    But please do not find guilty on just media alone.
    Jus\t noticed this: HMG had to drop plans to makje the inquiry non-statutory, so now they can compel witneses, with current and former staff especially in mind it seems. But no judge, no remit yet.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/aug/30/lucy-letby-inquiry-will-have-power-to-force-witnesses-to-give-evidence
    My point was really too often people seem to escape justice because they are too high up. I dont want them found summarily guilty. I do want their culpability examined in court and if charges are relevant they should be charged. Instead currently they seem to get a golden payoff and a promotion
    It does look as if the lawyers to the deceased children's families may get a go at examining them, depending always on what remit HMG gives.
    Examining them isnt enough the police should be looking at the events and passing a file to the cps if they were partly culpable.....same for the post office
    I’m not sure what crime you think they have committed in the Letby case? I think they simply could not believe that ‘nice Lucy’ could be a mass murderer.
    It’s clear that there is not the same professional body/standards required of managers in the health service that is there for the medical professions. Maybe there should be. But it’s not clear to me what crime has been committed.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,778
    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    As a Twitter advertiser, I can assure everyone that the Orban interview has not been watched 60 million times.

    The Tweet containing the video has been seen 75 million times. The number of times the video has been viewed at all will be somewhere in the 2-10% range of that. And the number of people who watch more than the first two minutes will be dramatically smaller even than that.

    At most, a million people - and probably a lot fewer than that - will have watched the video all the way through.

    Leon was talking shite?


    Except I wasn’t talking shite, was I?

    I said exactly this in my original comments. Only a fraction of the bald number will actually watch the video

    “Tucker Carlson’s Orban interview is now up to 60 million views

    https://x.com/tuckercarlson/status/1696643892253466712?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Probably only a fraction of these will watch large chunks or the whole thing. But even if it’s just 20% that’s 12 million people”

    There you go.
    20% is ludicrous.

    The proportion of people on YouTube or Twitter or Instagram or Facebook who click the "play" button for stories in their feed is never more than 10%, and is usually more in the 4-6% range. Even if we assume that Carlson's Orban interview is at the high end of this, it would be 6 million people started viewing/listening.

    But the number of people who will have got more than two minutes in will be - again - at most 25%. How do I know? Because that's what the best channels on YouTube manage. Most people flick off after 30 seconds onto the next thing. Maybe Carlson is beating Mark Rober's % to 2 minutes stats; but I doubt it.

    But let's assume that (a) he gets to the absolute top of the "click play" charts, and gets 10%; and let's (b) assume that he matches the very best YouTube channels and gets 25% of people staying two minutes.

    That's 1.25 million people.

    Not 20 million.

    And that 1.25 million is taking very generous assumptions.
    He’s now on 85 million views

    At some point you have to accept this is a new phenomenon, so the normal rules MIGHT not apply
    Why don't you put your money where your mouth is.

    We'll pay for a question to be put on a US YouGov poll, and ask how many people have watched the Orban Carlson interview on X/Twitter?

    If more than 8% of American adults have watched it, then you win, and I pay for the poll.

    If fewer, then I win and you pay.

    Alternatively, you could realise that what makes this different - potentially - is that Carlson is broadcasting to the WORLD, not the USA

    TwitterX has 290m active users worldwide, almost as many as there are Americans alive
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,849

    Pagan2 said:

    Carnyx said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Carnyx said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kle4 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Anyone else looking forward to the Sam Bankman-Fried fraud trial later this year? It seems astonishing so many people bought into what was, at best, utterly incompetent blustering (that is his own defence after all, that he;'s an idiot not a crook), but the crypto world seems fertile ground for scammers.

    Prosecutors have just written to the judge rebutting some of his attempts to get evidence excluded, some of which are pretty creative if prosecutors are accurate.

    Notably, the defendant now complains about something he previously requested: on April 22, 2023, in a letter demand the defendant asked for a copy of all Slack messages, and his counsel reiterated that request on a telephone call four days later. It cannot be that the defendant can strategically make a record of discovery he claims he is entitled to but is not getting, and then when he gets it, move to preclude its use

    https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.nysd.590939/gov.uscourts.nysd.590939.237.0.pdf

    They're also trying to bar all of the expert witnesses he wants to call in a separate matter. Should be fun, and has been surprisingly fast moving.

    Fun fact - both parents of Bankman-Fraud (sp) are lawyers, and faculty members of Stanford Junior University Law School.
    Given the people running FTX apparently dipped into customer accounts to pay for homes for themselves and relatives, among other things, you'd think they could have at least advised their son that he was at best butting up against the law.

    They must be very proud of him - he claims to have been hopelessly bad at running FTX which is why it collapsed, and hasn't much to his name now as a result, but he could post a bail worth millions somehow, which shows real talent.
    He was living in his parents home in lieu of prison until recently . . . when judge revoked his home detention on grounds that he was, among other things, engaged in witness intimidation, against his old girl friend, who worked for FTX but apparently was NOT included in the prime dining car of the bit-coin mega-grifter super-train.
    Has anyone got a list of the financial crimes that weren’t committed at FTX?
    I suspect his parents were proud of him till he got caught. It is the american attitude among those echelelons...rip people off all good..get caught you are a failure. Our similar class are exactly the same as I suspect are the elite of most countries
    They're probably still proud - he still obviously has some amount of ill gotten gains left, which won't be totally eaten up by the criminal trial, which they can benefit from.

    But then the civil complaints are still to come I believe.

    If I ever have kids they are free to still love me but believe I should go to prison for any crimes I commit.
    I should my kids should. It seems to be an attitude only prevalent among the little people though. I won't speak for everyone but frankly I am getting fed up with people taking the piss and getting off because they know people. Avoiding prison when someone like me would get it for far less and failing yet getting a good pay off and a promotion. Time we turn round and do something about it
    You say you want a revolution?

    Well, you know, we all want to change the world.
    I didn't say I wanted a revolution. You misread me. I don't want a revolution because all it means is we get the same shits doing the same stuff just different faces. What I want is people being held to account so they no longer feel they can get away with it.
    To give you an example...the lucy letby case....I want those managers on trial for complicity not allowed to be promoted elsewhere...or retire on health grounds. I want people like cressida dick to be on trial for her decisions that led to the assassination of an innocent electrician.

    Sometimes people make mistakes and I accept that. If those mistakes however lead to deaths or maimings then they should be held to the same standards as anyone else.
    As long as it’s a fair trial, that’s fine, but you seem to have decided, based solely on media reports, that they are guilty (specifically the Letby case). There has been media reports with only one take on events. It may be that the managers were egregiously bad in what they did. However I suspect that it is a very infrequent occurrence to be managing a serial killer, and normalcy bias tends to make people very cautious about suggesting such a thing.
    It’s possible that the managers were conned by Letby, that she was plausible and convincing. Many psychopaths can be charming. If the managers were fooled, what crime have they committed?

    By all means investigate. If there is a reasonable chance of a conviction (I have no idea for what) then bring a case. If they are found guilty then fine.

    But please do not find guilty on just media alone.
    Jus\t noticed this: HMG had to drop plans to makje the inquiry non-statutory, so now they can compel witneses, with current and former staff especially in mind it seems. But no judge, no remit yet.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/aug/30/lucy-letby-inquiry-will-have-power-to-force-witnesses-to-give-evidence
    My point was really too often people seem to escape justice because they are too high up. I dont want them found summarily guilty. I do want their culpability examined in court and if charges are relevant they should be charged. Instead currently they seem to get a golden payoff and a promotion
    It does look as if the lawyers to the deceased children's families may get a go at examining them, depending always on what remit HMG gives.
    Examining them isnt enough the police should be looking at the events and passing a file to the cps if they were partly culpable.....same for the post office
    I’m not sure what crime you think they have committed in the Letby case? I think they simply could not believe that ‘nice Lucy’ could be a mass murderer.
    It’s clear that there is not the same professional body/standards required of managers in the health service that is there for the medical professions. Maybe there should be. But it’s not clear to me what crime has been committed.
    According to reports five consultants told these managers their suspicions about letby....the managers instead of investigating made them apologize for bullying her. Any deaths that occurred post that they are equally guilty of corporate manslaughter...yes its a law even though rich people rarely get prosecuted for it
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,374
    Looks like more strikes inside Russia tonight.

    https://x.com/nexta_tv/status/1696974214039757004
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,246
    ...

    Did you know, that Lord Palmerston claimed descent from Lady Godiva?

    What was he doing on top of her in the first place?
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 21,819
    Leon said:

    Alternatively, you could realise that what makes this different - potentially - is that Carlson is broadcasting to the WORLD, not the USA

    Because you live on your phone, you think Twitter is the Internet. I work on my laptop(s) and I have YouTube on to listen (when I'm working) and watch (when I'm not). The Trump/Carlson interview on YouTube is here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nI-J9QtiuXU . I'd be genuinely interested as to which one has more impact

  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,611

    Pagan2 said:

    Carnyx said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Carnyx said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kle4 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Anyone else looking forward to the Sam Bankman-Fried fraud trial later this year? It seems astonishing so many people bought into what was, at best, utterly incompetent blustering (that is his own defence after all, that he;'s an idiot not a crook), but the crypto world seems fertile ground for scammers.

    Prosecutors have just written to the judge rebutting some of his attempts to get evidence excluded, some of which are pretty creative if prosecutors are accurate.

    Notably, the defendant now complains about something he previously requested: on April 22, 2023, in a letter demand the defendant asked for a copy of all Slack messages, and his counsel reiterated that request on a telephone call four days later. It cannot be that the defendant can strategically make a record of discovery he claims he is entitled to but is not getting, and then when he gets it, move to preclude its use

    https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.nysd.590939/gov.uscourts.nysd.590939.237.0.pdf

    They're also trying to bar all of the expert witnesses he wants to call in a separate matter. Should be fun, and has been surprisingly fast moving.

    Fun fact - both parents of Bankman-Fraud (sp) are lawyers, and faculty members of Stanford Junior University Law School.
    Given the people running FTX apparently dipped into customer accounts to pay for homes for themselves and relatives, among other things, you'd think they could have at least advised their son that he was at best butting up against the law.

    They must be very proud of him - he claims to have been hopelessly bad at running FTX which is why it collapsed, and hasn't much to his name now as a result, but he could post a bail worth millions somehow, which shows real talent.
    He was living in his parents home in lieu of prison until recently . . . when judge revoked his home detention on grounds that he was, among other things, engaged in witness intimidation, against his old girl friend, who worked for FTX but apparently was NOT included in the prime dining car of the bit-coin mega-grifter super-train.
    Has anyone got a list of the financial crimes that weren’t committed at FTX?
    I suspect his parents were proud of him till he got caught. It is the american attitude among those echelelons...rip people off all good..get caught you are a failure. Our similar class are exactly the same as I suspect are the elite of most countries
    They're probably still proud - he still obviously has some amount of ill gotten gains left, which won't be totally eaten up by the criminal trial, which they can benefit from.

    But then the civil complaints are still to come I believe.

    If I ever have kids they are free to still love me but believe I should go to prison for any crimes I commit.
    I should my kids should. It seems to be an attitude only prevalent among the little people though. I won't speak for everyone but frankly I am getting fed up with people taking the piss and getting off because they know people. Avoiding prison when someone like me would get it for far less and failing yet getting a good pay off and a promotion. Time we turn round and do something about it
    You say you want a revolution?

    Well, you know, we all want to change the world.
    I didn't say I wanted a revolution. You misread me. I don't want a revolution because all it means is we get the same shits doing the same stuff just different faces. What I want is people being held to account so they no longer feel they can get away with it.
    To give you an example...the lucy letby case....I want those managers on trial for complicity not allowed to be promoted elsewhere...or retire on health grounds. I want people like cressida dick to be on trial for her decisions that led to the assassination of an innocent electrician.

    Sometimes people make mistakes and I accept that. If those mistakes however lead to deaths or maimings then they should be held to the same standards as anyone else.
    As long as it’s a fair trial, that’s fine, but you seem to have decided, based solely on media reports, that they are guilty (specifically the Letby case). There has been media reports with only one take on events. It may be that the managers were egregiously bad in what they did. However I suspect that it is a very infrequent occurrence to be managing a serial killer, and normalcy bias tends to make people very cautious about suggesting such a thing.
    It’s possible that the managers were conned by Letby, that she was plausible and convincing. Many psychopaths can be charming. If the managers were fooled, what crime have they committed?

    By all means investigate. If there is a reasonable chance of a conviction (I have no idea for what) then bring a case. If they are found guilty then fine.

    But please do not find guilty on just media alone.
    Jus\t noticed this: HMG had to drop plans to makje the inquiry non-statutory, so now they can compel witneses, with current and former staff especially in mind it seems. But no judge, no remit yet.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/aug/30/lucy-letby-inquiry-will-have-power-to-force-witnesses-to-give-evidence
    My point was really too often people seem to escape justice because they are too high up. I dont want them found summarily guilty. I do want their culpability examined in court and if charges are relevant they should be charged. Instead currently they seem to get a golden payoff and a promotion
    It does look as if the lawyers to the deceased children's families may get a go at examining them, depending always on what remit HMG gives.
    Examining them isnt enough the police should be looking at the events and passing a file to the cps if they were partly culpable.....same for the post office
    I’m not sure what crime you think they have committed in the Letby case? I think they simply could not believe that ‘nice Lucy’ could be a mass murderer.
    It’s clear that there is not the same professional body/standards required of managers in the health service that is there for the medical professions. Maybe there should be. But it’s not clear to me what crime has been committed.
    The threatening doctors to stop them whistleblowing is misconduct in a public office. For a start. Give them a life sentence each for that. Then we start on giving them some serious time.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,195
    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Carnyx said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Carnyx said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kle4 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Anyone else looking forward to the Sam Bankman-Fried fraud trial later this year? It seems astonishing so many people bought into what was, at best, utterly incompetent blustering (that is his own defence after all, that he;'s an idiot not a crook), but the crypto world seems fertile ground for scammers.

    Prosecutors have just written to the judge rebutting some of his attempts to get evidence excluded, some of which are pretty creative if prosecutors are accurate.

    Notably, the defendant now complains about something he previously requested: on April 22, 2023, in a letter demand the defendant asked for a copy of all Slack messages, and his counsel reiterated that request on a telephone call four days later. It cannot be that the defendant can strategically make a record of discovery he claims he is entitled to but is not getting, and then when he gets it, move to preclude its use

    https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.nysd.590939/gov.uscourts.nysd.590939.237.0.pdf

    They're also trying to bar all of the expert witnesses he wants to call in a separate matter. Should be fun, and has been surprisingly fast moving.

    Fun fact - both parents of Bankman-Fraud (sp) are lawyers, and faculty members of Stanford Junior University Law School.
    Given the people running FTX apparently dipped into customer accounts to pay for homes for themselves and relatives, among other things, you'd think they could have at least advised their son that he was at best butting up against the law.

    They must be very proud of him - he claims to have been hopelessly bad at running FTX which is why it collapsed, and hasn't much to his name now as a result, but he could post a bail worth millions somehow, which shows real talent.
    He was living in his parents home in lieu of prison until recently . . . when judge revoked his home detention on grounds that he was, among other things, engaged in witness intimidation, against his old girl friend, who worked for FTX but apparently was NOT included in the prime dining car of the bit-coin mega-grifter super-train.
    Has anyone got a list of the financial crimes that weren’t committed at FTX?
    I suspect his parents were proud of him till he got caught. It is the american attitude among those echelelons...rip people off all good..get caught you are a failure. Our similar class are exactly the same as I suspect are the elite of most countries
    They're probably still proud - he still obviously has some amount of ill gotten gains left, which won't be totally eaten up by the criminal trial, which they can benefit from.

    But then the civil complaints are still to come I believe.

    If I ever have kids they are free to still love me but believe I should go to prison for any crimes I commit.
    I should my kids should. It seems to be an attitude only prevalent among the little people though. I won't speak for everyone but frankly I am getting fed up with people taking the piss and getting off because they know people. Avoiding prison when someone like me would get it for far less and failing yet getting a good pay off and a promotion. Time we turn round and do something about it
    You say you want a revolution?

    Well, you know, we all want to change the world.
    I didn't say I wanted a revolution. You misread me. I don't want a revolution because all it means is we get the same shits doing the same stuff just different faces. What I want is people being held to account so they no longer feel they can get away with it.
    To give you an example...the lucy letby case....I want those managers on trial for complicity not allowed to be promoted elsewhere...or retire on health grounds. I want people like cressida dick to be on trial for her decisions that led to the assassination of an innocent electrician.

    Sometimes people make mistakes and I accept that. If those mistakes however lead to deaths or maimings then they should be held to the same standards as anyone else.
    As long as it’s a fair trial, that’s fine, but you seem to have decided, based solely on media reports, that they are guilty (specifically the Letby case). There has been media reports with only one take on events. It may be that the managers were egregiously bad in what they did. However I suspect that it is a very infrequent occurrence to be managing a serial killer, and normalcy bias tends to make people very cautious about suggesting such a thing.
    It’s possible that the managers were conned by Letby, that she was plausible and convincing. Many psychopaths can be charming. If the managers were fooled, what crime have they committed?

    By all means investigate. If there is a reasonable chance of a conviction (I have no idea for what) then bring a case. If they are found guilty then fine.

    But please do not find guilty on just media alone.
    Jus\t noticed this: HMG had to drop plans to makje the inquiry non-statutory, so now they can compel witneses, with current and former staff especially in mind it seems. But no judge, no remit yet.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/aug/30/lucy-letby-inquiry-will-have-power-to-force-witnesses-to-give-evidence
    My point was really too often people seem to escape justice because they are too high up. I dont want them found summarily guilty. I do want their culpability examined in court and if charges are relevant they should be charged. Instead currently they seem to get a golden payoff and a promotion
    It does look as if the lawyers to the deceased children's families may get a go at examining them, depending always on what remit HMG gives.
    Examining them isnt enough the police should be looking at the events and passing a file to the cps if they were partly culpable.....same for the post office
    I’m not sure what crime you think they have committed in the Letby case? I think they simply could not believe that ‘nice Lucy’ could be a mass murderer.
    It’s clear that there is not the same professional body/standards required of managers in the health service that is there for the medical professions. Maybe there should be. But it’s not clear to me what crime has been committed.
    According to reports five consultants told these managers their suspicions about letby....the managers instead of investigating made them apologize for bullying her. Any deaths that occurred post that they are equally guilty of corporate manslaughter...yes its a law even though rich people rarely get prosecuted for it
    Again, you are going only on what the media have reported.

    I seriously doubt that a manager in this situation would be convicted of corporate manslaughter. As I said normalcy bias mitigates against believing someone you employ is a mass murderer. If they had reports of suspicions and did not nothing, does that make them guilty? What did they know/believe at the time? What does the law say about such a situation?

    I get that everyone is angry. I get that it looks like a lot of chances to stop Letby were missed. But that does NOT to me mean people are automatically guilty of criminal offences.

  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,175

    Did you know, that Lord Palmerston claimed descent from Lady Godiva?

    If only he'd told the naked truth.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,195

    Pagan2 said:

    Carnyx said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Carnyx said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kle4 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Anyone else looking forward to the Sam Bankman-Fried fraud trial later this year? It seems astonishing so many people bought into what was, at best, utterly incompetent blustering (that is his own defence after all, that he;'s an idiot not a crook), but the crypto world seems fertile ground for scammers.

    Prosecutors have just written to the judge rebutting some of his attempts to get evidence excluded, some of which are pretty creative if prosecutors are accurate.

    Notably, the defendant now complains about something he previously requested: on April 22, 2023, in a letter demand the defendant asked for a copy of all Slack messages, and his counsel reiterated that request on a telephone call four days later. It cannot be that the defendant can strategically make a record of discovery he claims he is entitled to but is not getting, and then when he gets it, move to preclude its use

    https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.nysd.590939/gov.uscourts.nysd.590939.237.0.pdf

    They're also trying to bar all of the expert witnesses he wants to call in a separate matter. Should be fun, and has been surprisingly fast moving.

    Fun fact - both parents of Bankman-Fraud (sp) are lawyers, and faculty members of Stanford Junior University Law School.
    Given the people running FTX apparently dipped into customer accounts to pay for homes for themselves and relatives, among other things, you'd think they could have at least advised their son that he was at best butting up against the law.

    They must be very proud of him - he claims to have been hopelessly bad at running FTX which is why it collapsed, and hasn't much to his name now as a result, but he could post a bail worth millions somehow, which shows real talent.
    He was living in his parents home in lieu of prison until recently . . . when judge revoked his home detention on grounds that he was, among other things, engaged in witness intimidation, against his old girl friend, who worked for FTX but apparently was NOT included in the prime dining car of the bit-coin mega-grifter super-train.
    Has anyone got a list of the financial crimes that weren’t committed at FTX?
    I suspect his parents were proud of him till he got caught. It is the american attitude among those echelelons...rip people off all good..get caught you are a failure. Our similar class are exactly the same as I suspect are the elite of most countries
    They're probably still proud - he still obviously has some amount of ill gotten gains left, which won't be totally eaten up by the criminal trial, which they can benefit from.

    But then the civil complaints are still to come I believe.

    If I ever have kids they are free to still love me but believe I should go to prison for any crimes I commit.
    I should my kids should. It seems to be an attitude only prevalent among the little people though. I won't speak for everyone but frankly I am getting fed up with people taking the piss and getting off because they know people. Avoiding prison when someone like me would get it for far less and failing yet getting a good pay off and a promotion. Time we turn round and do something about it
    You say you want a revolution?

    Well, you know, we all want to change the world.
    I didn't say I wanted a revolution. You misread me. I don't want a revolution because all it means is we get the same shits doing the same stuff just different faces. What I want is people being held to account so they no longer feel they can get away with it.
    To give you an example...the lucy letby case....I want those managers on trial for complicity not allowed to be promoted elsewhere...or retire on health grounds. I want people like cressida dick to be on trial for her decisions that led to the assassination of an innocent electrician.

    Sometimes people make mistakes and I accept that. If those mistakes however lead to deaths or maimings then they should be held to the same standards as anyone else.
    As long as it’s a fair trial, that’s fine, but you seem to have decided, based solely on media reports, that they are guilty (specifically the Letby case). There has been media reports with only one take on events. It may be that the managers were egregiously bad in what they did. However I suspect that it is a very infrequent occurrence to be managing a serial killer, and normalcy bias tends to make people very cautious about suggesting such a thing.
    It’s possible that the managers were conned by Letby, that she was plausible and convincing. Many psychopaths can be charming. If the managers were fooled, what crime have they committed?

    By all means investigate. If there is a reasonable chance of a conviction (I have no idea for what) then bring a case. If they are found guilty then fine.

    But please do not find guilty on just media alone.
    Jus\t noticed this: HMG had to drop plans to makje the inquiry non-statutory, so now they can compel witneses, with current and former staff especially in mind it seems. But no judge, no remit yet.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/aug/30/lucy-letby-inquiry-will-have-power-to-force-witnesses-to-give-evidence
    My point was really too often people seem to escape justice because they are too high up. I dont want them found summarily guilty. I do want their culpability examined in court and if charges are relevant they should be charged. Instead currently they seem to get a golden payoff and a promotion
    It does look as if the lawyers to the deceased children's families may get a go at examining them, depending always on what remit HMG gives.
    Examining them isnt enough the police should be looking at the events and passing a file to the cps if they were partly culpable.....same for the post office
    I’m not sure what crime you think they have committed in the Letby case? I think they simply could not believe that ‘nice Lucy’ could be a mass murderer.
    It’s clear that there is not the same professional body/standards required of managers in the health service that is there for the medical professions. Maybe there should be. But it’s not clear to me what crime has been committed.
    The threatening doctors to stop them whistleblowing is misconduct in a public office. For a start. Give them a life sentence each for that. Then we start on giving them some serious time.
    Is an NHS manager in public office?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,175

    ...

    Did you know, that Lord Palmerston claimed descent from Lady Godiva?

    What was he doing on top of her in the first place?
    It was Palmerston. Not known as 'Lord Cupid' for no reason.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,269
    Pagan2 said:

    Carnyx said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kle4 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Anyone else looking forward to the Sam Bankman-Fried fraud trial later this year? It seems astonishing so many people bought into what was, at best, utterly incompetent blustering (that is his own defence after all, that he;'s an idiot not a crook), but the crypto world seems fertile ground for scammers.

    Prosecutors have just written to the judge rebutting some of his attempts to get evidence excluded, some of which are pretty creative if prosecutors are accurate.

    Notably, the defendant now complains about something he previously requested: on April 22, 2023, in a letter demand the defendant asked for a copy of all Slack messages, and his counsel reiterated that request on a telephone call four days later. It cannot be that the defendant can strategically make a record of discovery he claims he is entitled to but is not getting, and then when he gets it, move to preclude its use

    https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.nysd.590939/gov.uscourts.nysd.590939.237.0.pdf

    They're also trying to bar all of the expert witnesses he wants to call in a separate matter. Should be fun, and has been surprisingly fast moving.

    Fun fact - both parents of Bankman-Fraud (sp) are lawyers, and faculty members of Stanford Junior University Law School.
    Given the people running FTX apparently dipped into customer accounts to pay for homes for themselves and relatives, among other things, you'd think they could have at least advised their son that he was at best butting up against the law.

    They must be very proud of him - he claims to have been hopelessly bad at running FTX which is why it collapsed, and hasn't much to his name now as a result, but he could post a bail worth millions somehow, which shows real talent.
    He was living in his parents home in lieu of prison until recently . . . when judge revoked his home detention on grounds that he was, among other things, engaged in witness intimidation, against his old girl friend, who worked for FTX but apparently was NOT included in the prime dining car of the bit-coin mega-grifter super-train.
    Has anyone got a list of the financial crimes that weren’t committed at FTX?
    I suspect his parents were proud of him till he got caught. It is the american attitude among those echelelons...rip people off all good..get caught you are a failure. Our similar class are exactly the same as I suspect are the elite of most countries
    They're probably still proud - he still obviously has some amount of ill gotten gains left, which won't be totally eaten up by the criminal trial, which they can benefit from.

    But then the civil complaints are still to come I believe.

    If I ever have kids they are free to still love me but believe I should go to prison for any crimes I commit.
    I should my kids should. It seems to be an attitude only prevalent among the little people though. I won't speak for everyone but frankly I am getting fed up with people taking the piss and getting off because they know people. Avoiding prison when someone like me would get it for far less and failing yet getting a good pay off and a promotion. Time we turn round and do something about it
    You say you want a revolution?

    Well, you know, we all want to change the world.
    I didn't say I wanted a revolution. You misread me. I don't want a revolution because all it means is we get the same shits doing the same stuff just different faces. What I want is people being held to account so they no longer feel they can get away with it.
    To give you an example...the lucy letby case....I want those managers on trial for complicity not allowed to be promoted elsewhere...or retire on health grounds. I want people like cressida dick to be on trial for her decisions that led to the assassination of an innocent electrician.

    Sometimes people make mistakes and I accept that. If those mistakes however lead to deaths or maimings then they should be held to the same standards as anyone else.
    As long as it’s a fair trial, that’s fine, but you seem to have decided, based solely on media reports, that they are guilty (specifically the Letby case). There has been media reports with only one take on events. It may be that the managers were egregiously bad in what they did. However I suspect that it is a very infrequent occurrence to be managing a serial killer, and normalcy bias tends to make people very cautious about suggesting such a thing.
    It’s possible that the managers were conned by Letby, that she was plausible and convincing. Many psychopaths can be charming. If the managers were fooled, what crime have they committed?

    By all means investigate. If there is a reasonable chance of a conviction (I have no idea for what) then bring a case. If they are found guilty then fine.

    But please do not find guilty on just media alone.
    Jus\t noticed this: HMG had to drop plans to makje the inquiry non-statutory, so now they can compel witneses, with current and former staff especially in mind it seems. But no judge, no remit yet.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/aug/30/lucy-letby-inquiry-will-have-power-to-force-witnesses-to-give-evidence
    My point was really too often people seem to escape justice because they are too high up. I dont want them found summarily guilty. I do want their culpability examined in court and if charges are relevant they should be charged. Instead currently they seem to get a golden payoff and a promotion
    There are different types of culpability and we really have to be clear which we're talking about:

    1. Disciplinary culpability. Based on what I have read - which will not be a complete picture of course - there is probably some basis for saying that people did not behave as professionally as they should and failed to follow best practice etc.,. Some of that may be personal culpability but some will also be institutional failings eg a failure to have a proper investigation process or a whistleblowing process etc.,.

    2. Criminal responsibility. This is very much harder. There are two possible offences: gross negligence manslaughter or corporate manslaughter. Hard to prove.

    Important not to confuse the two. It is certainly vital to establish a sense of responsibility and accountability so that we do not get this endless rota of people being paid big bucks for responsible jobs but then exhibiting a lack of professionalism, taking no responsibility and moving on without suffering any consequences.

    Whether the criminal law or disciplinary measures are the way to do that will depend on the evidence. But what is also needed is for these organisations to establish strong proper processes to deal with these difficult issues. From what I have read - not just on this case - the NHS has repeatedly failed to do so, despite endless reports telling it to do so and despite there being good examples in other sectors of exactly the sort of processes and teams they need. That - to me - pretty culpable failure is not just down to the managers but also the politicians and managers at the very top responsible for the NHS.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,175

    Pagan2 said:

    Carnyx said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Carnyx said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kle4 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Anyone else looking forward to the Sam Bankman-Fried fraud trial later this year? It seems astonishing so many people bought into what was, at best, utterly incompetent blustering (that is his own defence after all, that he;'s an idiot not a crook), but the crypto world seems fertile ground for scammers.

    Prosecutors have just written to the judge rebutting some of his attempts to get evidence excluded, some of which are pretty creative if prosecutors are accurate.

    Notably, the defendant now complains about something he previously requested: on April 22, 2023, in a letter demand the defendant asked for a copy of all Slack messages, and his counsel reiterated that request on a telephone call four days later. It cannot be that the defendant can strategically make a record of discovery he claims he is entitled to but is not getting, and then when he gets it, move to preclude its use

    https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.nysd.590939/gov.uscourts.nysd.590939.237.0.pdf

    They're also trying to bar all of the expert witnesses he wants to call in a separate matter. Should be fun, and has been surprisingly fast moving.

    Fun fact - both parents of Bankman-Fraud (sp) are lawyers, and faculty members of Stanford Junior University Law School.
    Given the people running FTX apparently dipped into customer accounts to pay for homes for themselves and relatives, among other things, you'd think they could have at least advised their son that he was at best butting up against the law.

    They must be very proud of him - he claims to have been hopelessly bad at running FTX which is why it collapsed, and hasn't much to his name now as a result, but he could post a bail worth millions somehow, which shows real talent.
    He was living in his parents home in lieu of prison until recently . . . when judge revoked his home detention on grounds that he was, among other things, engaged in witness intimidation, against his old girl friend, who worked for FTX but apparently was NOT included in the prime dining car of the bit-coin mega-grifter super-train.
    Has anyone got a list of the financial crimes that weren’t committed at FTX?
    I suspect his parents were proud of him till he got caught. It is the american attitude among those echelelons...rip people off all good..get caught you are a failure. Our similar class are exactly the same as I suspect are the elite of most countries
    They're probably still proud - he still obviously has some amount of ill gotten gains left, which won't be totally eaten up by the criminal trial, which they can benefit from.

    But then the civil complaints are still to come I believe.

    If I ever have kids they are free to still love me but believe I should go to prison for any crimes I commit.
    I should my kids should. It seems to be an attitude only prevalent among the little people though. I won't speak for everyone but frankly I am getting fed up with people taking the piss and getting off because they know people. Avoiding prison when someone like me would get it for far less and failing yet getting a good pay off and a promotion. Time we turn round and do something about it
    You say you want a revolution?

    Well, you know, we all want to change the world.
    I didn't say I wanted a revolution. You misread me. I don't want a revolution because all it means is we get the same shits doing the same stuff just different faces. What I want is people being held to account so they no longer feel they can get away with it.
    To give you an example...the lucy letby case....I want those managers on trial for complicity not allowed to be promoted elsewhere...or retire on health grounds. I want people like cressida dick to be on trial for her decisions that led to the assassination of an innocent electrician.

    Sometimes people make mistakes and I accept that. If those mistakes however lead to deaths or maimings then they should be held to the same standards as anyone else.
    As long as it’s a fair trial, that’s fine, but you seem to have decided, based solely on media reports, that they are guilty (specifically the Letby case). There has been media reports with only one take on events. It may be that the managers were egregiously bad in what they did. However I suspect that it is a very infrequent occurrence to be managing a serial killer, and normalcy bias tends to make people very cautious about suggesting such a thing.
    It’s possible that the managers were conned by Letby, that she was plausible and convincing. Many psychopaths can be charming. If the managers were fooled, what crime have they committed?

    By all means investigate. If there is a reasonable chance of a conviction (I have no idea for what) then bring a case. If they are found guilty then fine.

    But please do not find guilty on just media alone.
    Jus\t noticed this: HMG had to drop plans to makje the inquiry non-statutory, so now they can compel witneses, with current and former staff especially in mind it seems. But no judge, no remit yet.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/aug/30/lucy-letby-inquiry-will-have-power-to-force-witnesses-to-give-evidence
    My point was really too often people seem to escape justice because they are too high up. I dont want them found summarily guilty. I do want their culpability examined in court and if charges are relevant they should be charged. Instead currently they seem to get a golden payoff and a promotion
    It does look as if the lawyers to the deceased children's families may get a go at examining them, depending always on what remit HMG gives.
    Examining them isnt enough the police should be looking at the events and passing a file to the cps if they were partly culpable.....same for the post office
    I’m not sure what crime you think they have committed in the Letby case? I think they simply could not believe that ‘nice Lucy’ could be a mass murderer.
    It’s clear that there is not the same professional body/standards required of managers in the health service that is there for the medical professions. Maybe there should be. But it’s not clear to me what crime has been committed.
    The threatening doctors to stop them whistleblowing is misconduct in a public office. For a start. Give them a life sentence each for that. Then we start on giving them some serious time.
    Is an NHS manager in public office?
    I think they would qualify as civil servants, although it's a bit of a grey area.

    Medical staff are not so considered.

    https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/misconduct-public-office
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,849

    Pagan2 said:

    Carnyx said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Carnyx said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kle4 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Anyone else looking forward to the Sam Bankman-Fried fraud trial later this year? It seems astonishing so many people bought into what was, at best, utterly incompetent blustering (that is his own defence after all, that he;'s an idiot not a crook), but the crypto world seems fertile ground for scammers.

    Prosecutors have just written to the judge rebutting some of his attempts to get evidence excluded, some of which are pretty creative if prosecutors are accurate.

    Notably, the defendant now complains about something he previously requested: on April 22, 2023, in a letter demand the defendant asked for a copy of all Slack messages, and his counsel reiterated that request on a telephone call four days later. It cannot be that the defendant can strategically make a record of discovery he claims he is entitled to but is not getting, and then when he gets it, move to preclude its use

    https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.nysd.590939/gov.uscourts.nysd.590939.237.0.pdf

    They're also trying to bar all of the expert witnesses he wants to call in a separate matter. Should be fun, and has been surprisingly fast moving.

    Fun fact - both parents of Bankman-Fraud (sp) are lawyers, and faculty members of Stanford Junior University Law School.
    Given the people running FTX apparently dipped into customer accounts to pay for homes for themselves and relatives, among other things, you'd think they could have at least advised their son that he was at best butting up against the law.

    They must be very proud of him - he claims to have been hopelessly bad at running FTX which is why it collapsed, and hasn't much to his name now as a result, but he could post a bail worth millions somehow, which shows real talent.
    He was living in his parents home in lieu of prison until recently . . . when judge revoked his home detention on grounds that he was, among other things, engaged in witness intimidation, against his old girl friend, who worked for FTX but apparently was NOT included in the prime dining car of the bit-coin mega-grifter super-train.
    Has anyone got a list of the financial crimes that weren’t committed at FTX?
    I suspect his parents were proud of him till he got caught. It is the american attitude among those echelelons...rip people off all good..get caught you are a failure. Our similar class are exactly the same as I suspect are the elite of most countries
    They're probably still proud - he still obviously has some amount of ill gotten gains left, which won't be totally eaten up by the criminal trial, which they can benefit from.

    But then the civil complaints are still to come I believe.

    If I ever have kids they are free to still love me but believe I should go to prison for any crimes I commit.
    I should my kids should. It seems to be an attitude only prevalent among the little people though. I won't speak for everyone but frankly I am getting fed up with people taking the piss and getting off because they know people. Avoiding prison when someone like me would get it for far less and failing yet getting a good pay off and a promotion. Time we turn round and do something about it
    You say you want a revolution?

    Well, you know, we all want to change the world.
    I didn't say I wanted a revolution. You misread me. I don't want a revolution because all it means is we get the same shits doing the same stuff just different faces. What I want is people being held to account so they no longer feel they can get away with it.
    To give you an example...the lucy letby case....I want those managers on trial for complicity not allowed to be promoted elsewhere...or retire on health grounds. I want people like cressida dick to be on trial for her decisions that led to the assassination of an innocent electrician.

    Sometimes people make mistakes and I accept that. If those mistakes however lead to deaths or maimings then they should be held to the same standards as anyone else.
    As long as it’s a fair trial, that’s fine, but you seem to have decided, based solely on media reports, that they are guilty (specifically the Letby case). There has been media reports with only one take on events. It may be that the managers were egregiously bad in what they did. However I suspect that it is a very infrequent occurrence to be managing a serial killer, and normalcy bias tends to make people very cautious about suggesting such a thing.
    It’s possible that the managers were conned by Letby, that she was plausible and convincing. Many psychopaths can be charming. If the managers were fooled, what crime have they committed?

    By all means investigate. If there is a reasonable chance of a conviction (I have no idea for what) then bring a case. If they are found guilty then fine.

    But please do not find guilty on just media alone.
    Jus\t noticed this: HMG had to drop plans to makje the inquiry non-statutory, so now they can compel witneses, with current and former staff especially in mind it seems. But no judge, no remit yet.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/aug/30/lucy-letby-inquiry-will-have-power-to-force-witnesses-to-give-evidence
    My point was really too often people seem to escape justice because they are too high up. I dont want them found summarily guilty. I do want their culpability examined in court and if charges are relevant they should be charged. Instead currently they seem to get a golden payoff and a promotion
    It does look as if the lawyers to the deceased children's families may get a go at examining them, depending always on what remit HMG gives.
    Examining them isnt enough the police should be looking at the events and passing a file to the cps if they were partly culpable.....same for the post office
    I’m not sure what crime you think they have committed in the Letby case? I think they simply could not believe that ‘nice Lucy’ could be a mass murderer.
    It’s clear that there is not the same professional body/standards required of managers in the health service that is there for the medical professions. Maybe there should be. But it’s not clear to me what crime has been committed.
    The threatening doctors to stop them whistleblowing is misconduct in a public office. For a start. Give them a life sentence each for that. Then we start on giving them some serious time.
    In both the letby case and the horizons senior management turning a blind eye cause more death. I dont understand why certain people feel its not right to hold them responsible. I don't ask for no trial...I do ask for an investigation of it with a presumption they will be charged if there is sufficient evidence. The authorities dont want it investigated is my issue
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,676
    Telegraph:
    Ukraine uses cardboard drones to strike Russian military planes
    Kyiv’s security service said fighter jets were hit in attack on Russian airfield by ‘flat-pack’ aircraft supplied by Australian government

  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,796

    Did you know, that Lord Palmerston claimed descent from Lady Godiva?

    thats a naked lie
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,175

    Did you know, that Lord Palmerston claimed descent from Lady Godiva?

    thats a naked lie
    We've already had that.

    That's the problem with PB. Punning opportunities come and go in a flash.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,352
    In shocking news.
    Everton have scored.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,269

    Pagan2 said:

    Carnyx said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Carnyx said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kle4 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Anyone else looking forward to the Sam Bankman-Fried fraud trial later this year? It seems astonishing so many people bought into what was, at best, utterly incompetent blustering (that is his own defence after all, that he;'s an idiot not a crook), but the crypto world seems fertile ground for scammers.

    Prosecutors have just written to the judge rebutting some of his attempts to get evidence excluded, some of which are pretty creative if prosecutors are accurate.

    Notably, the defendant now complains about something he previously requested: on April 22, 2023, in a letter demand the defendant asked for a copy of all Slack messages, and his counsel reiterated that request on a telephone call four days later. It cannot be that the defendant can strategically make a record of discovery he claims he is entitled to but is not getting, and then when he gets it, move to preclude its use

    https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.nysd.590939/gov.uscourts.nysd.590939.237.0.pdf

    They're also trying to bar all of the expert witnesses he wants to call in a separate matter. Should be fun, and has been surprisingly fast moving.

    Fun fact - both parents of Bankman-Fraud (sp) are lawyers, and faculty members of Stanford Junior University Law School.
    Given the people running FTX apparently dipped into customer accounts to pay for homes for themselves and relatives, among other things, you'd think they could have at least advised their son that he was at best butting up against the law.

    They must be very proud of him - he claims to have been hopelessly bad at running FTX which is why it collapsed, and hasn't much to his name now as a result, but he could post a bail worth millions somehow, which shows real talent.
    He was living in his parents home in lieu of prison until recently . . . when judge revoked his home detention on grounds that he was, among other things, engaged in witness intimidation, against his old girl friend, who worked for FTX but apparently was NOT included in the prime dining car of the bit-coin mega-grifter super-train.
    Has anyone got a list of the financial crimes that weren’t committed at FTX?
    I suspect his parents were proud of him till he got caught. It is the american attitude among those echelelons...rip people off all good..get caught you are a failure. Our similar class are exactly the same as I suspect are the elite of most countries
    They're probably still proud - he still obviously has some amount of ill gotten gains left, which won't be totally eaten up by the criminal trial, which they can benefit from.

    But then the civil complaints are still to come I believe.

    If I ever have kids they are free to still love me but believe I should go to prison for any crimes I commit.
    I should my kids should. It seems to be an attitude only prevalent among the little people though. I won't speak for everyone but frankly I am getting fed up with people taking the piss and getting off because they know people. Avoiding prison when someone like me would get it for far less and failing yet getting a good pay off and a promotion. Time we turn round and do something about it
    You say you want a revolution?

    Well, you know, we all want to change the world.
    I didn't say I wanted a revolution. You misread me. I don't want a revolution because all it means is we get the same shits doing the same stuff just different faces. What I want is people being held to account so they no longer feel they can get away with it.
    To give you an example...the lucy letby case....I want those managers on trial for complicity not allowed to be promoted elsewhere...or retire on health grounds. I want people like cressida dick to be on trial for her decisions that led to the assassination of an innocent electrician.

    Sometimes people make mistakes and I accept that. If those mistakes however lead to deaths or maimings then they should be held to the same standards as anyone else.
    As long as it’s a fair trial, that’s fine, but you seem to have decided, based solely on media reports, that they are guilty (specifically the Letby case). There has been media reports with only one take on events. It may be that the managers were egregiously bad in what they did. However I suspect that it is a very infrequent occurrence to be managing a serial killer, and normalcy bias tends to make people very cautious about suggesting such a thing.
    It’s possible that the managers were conned by Letby, that she was plausible and convincing. Many psychopaths can be charming. If the managers were fooled, what crime have they committed?

    By all means investigate. If there is a reasonable chance of a conviction (I have no idea for what) then bring a case. If they are found guilty then fine.

    But please do not find guilty on just media alone.
    Jus\t noticed this: HMG had to drop plans to makje the inquiry non-statutory, so now they can compel witneses, with current and former staff especially in mind it seems. But no judge, no remit yet.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/aug/30/lucy-letby-inquiry-will-have-power-to-force-witnesses-to-give-evidence
    My point was really too often people seem to escape justice because they are too high up. I dont want them found summarily guilty. I do want their culpability examined in court and if charges are relevant they should be charged. Instead currently they seem to get a golden payoff and a promotion
    It does look as if the lawyers to the deceased children's families may get a go at examining them, depending always on what remit HMG gives.
    Examining them isnt enough the police should be looking at the events and passing a file to the cps if they were partly culpable.....same for the post office
    I’m not sure what crime you think they have committed in the Letby case? I think they simply could not believe that ‘nice Lucy’ could be a mass murderer.
    It’s clear that there is not the same professional body/standards required of managers in the health service that is there for the medical professions. Maybe there should be. But it’s not clear to me what crime has been committed.
    The threatening doctors to stop them whistleblowing is misconduct in a public office. For a start. Give them a life sentence each for that. Then we start on giving them some serious time.
    Whistleblowing is my expertise. Seriously.

    Retaliating - or threatening to retaliate - against whistleblowers is an absolute no-no. Grounds for a gross misconduct disciplinary proceeding.

    It is not, however, a criminal offence. Whether the evidence supports a charge of gross negligence manslaughter is another matter.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,195
    Cyclefree said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Carnyx said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kle4 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Anyone else looking forward to the Sam Bankman-Fried fraud trial later this year? It seems astonishing so many people bought into what was, at best, utterly incompetent blustering (that is his own defence after all, that he;'s an idiot not a crook), but the crypto world seems fertile ground for scammers.

    Prosecutors have just written to the judge rebutting some of his attempts to get evidence excluded, some of which are pretty creative if prosecutors are accurate.

    Notably, the defendant now complains about something he previously requested: on April 22, 2023, in a letter demand the defendant asked for a copy of all Slack messages, and his counsel reiterated that request on a telephone call four days later. It cannot be that the defendant can strategically make a record of discovery he claims he is entitled to but is not getting, and then when he gets it, move to preclude its use

    https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.nysd.590939/gov.uscourts.nysd.590939.237.0.pdf

    They're also trying to bar all of the expert witnesses he wants to call in a separate matter. Should be fun, and has been surprisingly fast moving.

    Fun fact - both parents of Bankman-Fraud (sp) are lawyers, and faculty members of Stanford Junior University Law School.
    Given the people running FTX apparently dipped into customer accounts to pay for homes for themselves and relatives, among other things, you'd think they could have at least advised their son that he was at best butting up against the law.

    They must be very proud of him - he claims to have been hopelessly bad at running FTX which is why it collapsed, and hasn't much to his name now as a result, but he could post a bail worth millions somehow, which shows real talent.
    He was living in his parents home in lieu of prison until recently . . . when judge revoked his home detention on grounds that he was, among other things, engaged in witness intimidation, against his old girl friend, who worked for FTX but apparently was NOT included in the prime dining car of the bit-coin mega-grifter super-train.
    Has anyone got a list of the financial crimes that weren’t committed at FTX?
    I suspect his parents were proud of him till he got caught. It is the american attitude among those echelelons...rip people off all good..get caught you are a failure. Our similar class are exactly the same as I suspect are the elite of most countries
    They're probably still proud - he still obviously has some amount of ill gotten gains left, which won't be totally eaten up by the criminal trial, which they can benefit from.

    But then the civil complaints are still to come I believe.

    If I ever have kids they are free to still love me but believe I should go to prison for any crimes I commit.
    I should my kids should. It seems to be an attitude only prevalent among the little people though. I won't speak for everyone but frankly I am getting fed up with people taking the piss and getting off because they know people. Avoiding prison when someone like me would get it for far less and failing yet getting a good pay off and a promotion. Time we turn round and do something about it
    You say you want a revolution?

    Well, you know, we all want to change the world.
    I didn't say I wanted a revolution. You misread me. I don't want a revolution because all it means is we get the same shits doing the same stuff just different faces. What I want is people being held to account so they no longer feel they can get away with it.
    To give you an example...the lucy letby case....I want those managers on trial for complicity not allowed to be promoted elsewhere...or retire on health grounds. I want people like cressida dick to be on trial for her decisions that led to the assassination of an innocent electrician.

    Sometimes people make mistakes and I accept that. If those mistakes however lead to deaths or maimings then they should be held to the same standards as anyone else.
    As long as it’s a fair trial, that’s fine, but you seem to have decided, based solely on media reports, that they are guilty (specifically the Letby case). There has been media reports with only one take on events. It may be that the managers were egregiously bad in what they did. However I suspect that it is a very infrequent occurrence to be managing a serial killer, and normalcy bias tends to make people very cautious about suggesting such a thing.
    It’s possible that the managers were conned by Letby, that she was plausible and convincing. Many psychopaths can be charming. If the managers were fooled, what crime have they committed?

    By all means investigate. If there is a reasonable chance of a conviction (I have no idea for what) then bring a case. If they are found guilty then fine.

    But please do not find guilty on just media alone.
    Jus\t noticed this: HMG had to drop plans to makje the inquiry non-statutory, so now they can compel witneses, with current and former staff especially in mind it seems. But no judge, no remit yet.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/aug/30/lucy-letby-inquiry-will-have-power-to-force-witnesses-to-give-evidence
    My point was really too often people seem to escape justice because they are too high up. I dont want them found summarily guilty. I do want their culpability examined in court and if charges are relevant they should be charged. Instead currently they seem to get a golden payoff and a promotion
    There are different types of culpability and we really have to be clear which we're talking about:

    1. Disciplinary culpability. Based on what I have read - which will not be a complete picture of course - there is probably some basis for saying that people did not behave as professionally as they should and failed to follow best practice etc.,. Some of that may be personal culpability but some will also be institutional failings eg a failure to have a proper investigation process or a whistleblowing process etc.,.

    2. Criminal responsibility. This is very much harder. There are two possible offences: gross negligence manslaughter or corporate manslaughter. Hard to prove.

    Important not to confuse the two. It is certainly vital to establish a sense of responsibility and accountability so that we do not get this endless rota of people being paid big bucks for responsible jobs but then exhibiting a lack of professionalism, taking no responsibility and moving on without suffering any consequences.

    Whether the criminal law or disciplinary measures are the way to do that will depend on the evidence. But what is also needed is for these organisations to establish strong proper processes to deal with these difficult issues. From what I have read - not just on this case - the NHS has repeatedly failed to do so, despite endless reports telling it to do so and despite there being good examples in other sectors of exactly the sort of processes and teams they need. That - to me - pretty culpable failure is not just down to the managers but also the politicians and managers at the very top responsible for the NHS.
    Thanks for this note of sanity.

    One thing the NHS has us do at a recruitment level of undergrad pharmacy students is to attempt to screen for NHS values. It’s nonsense of course, but we have to do it and record it.

    I would argue we should be aiming to instil said values in the training process rather than crudely trying to weed out psychopaths at 17.

    I hope that the managers involved in the Letby case are horrified at what has happened. It seems clear that whistleblowing is hard to do, and resisted by the NHS, and individual trusts. I see it a bit at the Uni. We had four student deaths last year. I think at least three were suicide, but I don’t know for sure, as they are kept incredibly quiet. The uni would say they are respecting privacy, but I also think there is an element of reputational protection going on.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,611
    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Carnyx said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Carnyx said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kle4 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Anyone else looking forward to the Sam Bankman-Fried fraud trial later this year? It seems astonishing so many people bought into what was, at best, utterly incompetent blustering (that is his own defence after all, that he;'s an idiot not a crook), but the crypto world seems fertile ground for scammers.

    Prosecutors have just written to the judge rebutting some of his attempts to get evidence excluded, some of which are pretty creative if prosecutors are accurate.

    Notably, the defendant now complains about something he previously requested: on April 22, 2023, in a letter demand the defendant asked for a copy of all Slack messages, and his counsel reiterated that request on a telephone call four days later. It cannot be that the defendant can strategically make a record of discovery he claims he is entitled to but is not getting, and then when he gets it, move to preclude its use

    https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.nysd.590939/gov.uscourts.nysd.590939.237.0.pdf

    They're also trying to bar all of the expert witnesses he wants to call in a separate matter. Should be fun, and has been surprisingly fast moving.

    Fun fact - both parents of Bankman-Fraud (sp) are lawyers, and faculty members of Stanford Junior University Law School.
    Given the people running FTX apparently dipped into customer accounts to pay for homes for themselves and relatives, among other things, you'd think they could have at least advised their son that he was at best butting up against the law.

    They must be very proud of him - he claims to have been hopelessly bad at running FTX which is why it collapsed, and hasn't much to his name now as a result, but he could post a bail worth millions somehow, which shows real talent.
    He was living in his parents home in lieu of prison until recently . . . when judge revoked his home detention on grounds that he was, among other things, engaged in witness intimidation, against his old girl friend, who worked for FTX but apparently was NOT included in the prime dining car of the bit-coin mega-grifter super-train.
    Has anyone got a list of the financial crimes that weren’t committed at FTX?
    I suspect his parents were proud of him till he got caught. It is the american attitude among those echelelons...rip people off all good..get caught you are a failure. Our similar class are exactly the same as I suspect are the elite of most countries
    They're probably still proud - he still obviously has some amount of ill gotten gains left, which won't be totally eaten up by the criminal trial, which they can benefit from.

    But then the civil complaints are still to come I believe.

    If I ever have kids they are free to still love me but believe I should go to prison for any crimes I commit.
    I should my kids should. It seems to be an attitude only prevalent among the little people though. I won't speak for everyone but frankly I am getting fed up with people taking the piss and getting off because they know people. Avoiding prison when someone like me would get it for far less and failing yet getting a good pay off and a promotion. Time we turn round and do something about it
    You say you want a revolution?

    Well, you know, we all want to change the world.
    I didn't say I wanted a revolution. You misread me. I don't want a revolution because all it means is we get the same shits doing the same stuff just different faces. What I want is people being held to account so they no longer feel they can get away with it.
    To give you an example...the lucy letby case....I want those managers on trial for complicity not allowed to be promoted elsewhere...or retire on health grounds. I want people like cressida dick to be on trial for her decisions that led to the assassination of an innocent electrician.

    Sometimes people make mistakes and I accept that. If those mistakes however lead to deaths or maimings then they should be held to the same standards as anyone else.
    As long as it’s a fair trial, that’s fine, but you seem to have decided, based solely on media reports, that they are guilty (specifically the Letby case). There has been media reports with only one take on events. It may be that the managers were egregiously bad in what they did. However I suspect that it is a very infrequent occurrence to be managing a serial killer, and normalcy bias tends to make people very cautious about suggesting such a thing.
    It’s possible that the managers were conned by Letby, that she was plausible and convincing. Many psychopaths can be charming. If the managers were fooled, what crime have they committed?

    By all means investigate. If there is a reasonable chance of a conviction (I have no idea for what) then bring a case. If they are found guilty then fine.

    But please do not find guilty on just media alone.
    Jus\t noticed this: HMG had to drop plans to makje the inquiry non-statutory, so now they can compel witneses, with current and former staff especially in mind it seems. But no judge, no remit yet.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/aug/30/lucy-letby-inquiry-will-have-power-to-force-witnesses-to-give-evidence
    My point was really too often people seem to escape justice because they are too high up. I dont want them found summarily guilty. I do want their culpability examined in court and if charges are relevant they should be charged. Instead currently they seem to get a golden payoff and a promotion
    It does look as if the lawyers to the deceased children's families may get a go at examining them, depending always on what remit HMG gives.
    Examining them isnt enough the police should be looking at the events and passing a file to the cps if they were partly culpable.....same for the post office
    I’m not sure what crime you think they have committed in the Letby case? I think they simply could not believe that ‘nice Lucy’ could be a mass murderer.
    It’s clear that there is not the same professional body/standards required of managers in the health service that is there for the medical professions. Maybe there should be. But it’s not clear to me what crime has been committed.
    The threatening doctors to stop them whistleblowing is misconduct in a public office. For a start. Give them a life sentence each for that. Then we start on giving them some serious time.
    In both the letby case and the horizons senior management turning a blind eye cause more death. I dont understand why certain people feel its not right to hold them responsible. I don't ask for no trial...I do ask for an investigation of it with a presumption they will be charged if there is sufficient evidence. The authorities dont want it investigated is my issue
    In the Letby case management bullied and threatened staff to get them to shut up and not report.

    In the Horizons case senior managers knew that they system was producing bullshit - by presenting the evidence as they did, they lied to the courts. In an organised conspiracy.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,175
    edited August 2023

    Cyclefree said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Carnyx said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kle4 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Anyone else looking forward to the Sam Bankman-Fried fraud trial later this year? It seems astonishing so many people bought into what was, at best, utterly incompetent blustering (that is his own defence after all, that he;'s an idiot not a crook), but the crypto world seems fertile ground for scammers.

    Prosecutors have just written to the judge rebutting some of his attempts to get evidence excluded, some of which are pretty creative if prosecutors are accurate.

    Notably, the defendant now complains about something he previously requested: on April 22, 2023, in a letter demand the defendant asked for a copy of all Slack messages, and his counsel reiterated that request on a telephone call four days later. It cannot be that the defendant can strategically make a record of discovery he claims he is entitled to but is not getting, and then when he gets it, move to preclude its use

    https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.nysd.590939/gov.uscourts.nysd.590939.237.0.pdf

    They're also trying to bar all of the expert witnesses he wants to call in a separate matter. Should be fun, and has been surprisingly fast moving.

    Fun fact - both parents of Bankman-Fraud (sp) are lawyers, and faculty members of Stanford Junior University Law School.
    Given the people running FTX apparently dipped into customer accounts to pay for homes for themselves and relatives, among other things, you'd think they could have at least advised their son that he was at best butting up against the law.

    They must be very proud of him - he claims to have been hopelessly bad at running FTX which is why it collapsed, and hasn't much to his name now as a result, but he could post a bail worth millions somehow, which shows real talent.
    He was living in his parents home in lieu of prison until recently . . . when judge revoked his home detention on grounds that he was, among other things, engaged in witness intimidation, against his old girl friend, who worked for FTX but apparently was NOT included in the prime dining car of the bit-coin mega-grifter super-train.
    Has anyone got a list of the financial crimes that weren’t committed at FTX?
    I suspect his parents were proud of him till he got caught. It is the american attitude among those echelelons...rip people off all good..get caught you are a failure. Our similar class are exactly the same as I suspect are the elite of most countries
    They're probably still proud - he still obviously has some amount of ill gotten gains left, which won't be totally eaten up by the criminal trial, which they can benefit from.

    But then the civil complaints are still to come I believe.

    If I ever have kids they are free to still love me but believe I should go to prison for any crimes I commit.
    I should my kids should. It seems to be an attitude only prevalent among the little people though. I won't speak for everyone but frankly I am getting fed up with people taking the piss and getting off because they know people. Avoiding prison when someone like me would get it for far less and failing yet getting a good pay off and a promotion. Time we turn round and do something about it
    You say you want a revolution?

    Well, you know, we all want to change the world.
    I didn't say I wanted a revolution. You misread me. I don't want a revolution because all it means is we get the same shits doing the same stuff just different faces. What I want is people being held to account so they no longer feel they can get away with it.
    To give you an example...the lucy letby case....I want those managers on trial for complicity not allowed to be promoted elsewhere...or retire on health grounds. I want people like cressida dick to be on trial for her decisions that led to the assassination of an innocent electrician.

    Sometimes people make mistakes and I accept that. If those mistakes however lead to deaths or maimings then they should be held to the same standards as anyone else.
    As long as it’s a fair trial, that’s fine, but you seem to have decided, based solely on media reports, that they are guilty (specifically the Letby case). There has been media reports with only one take on events. It may be that the managers were egregiously bad in what they did. However I suspect that it is a very infrequent occurrence to be managing a serial killer, and normalcy bias tends to make people very cautious about suggesting such a thing.
    It’s possible that the managers were conned by Letby, that she was plausible and convincing. Many psychopaths can be charming. If the managers were fooled, what crime have they committed?

    By all means investigate. If there is a reasonable chance of a conviction (I have no idea for what) then bring a case. If they are found guilty then fine.

    But please do not find guilty on just media alone.
    Jus\t noticed this: HMG had to drop plans to makje the inquiry non-statutory, so now they can compel witneses, with current and former staff especially in mind it seems. But no judge, no remit yet.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/aug/30/lucy-letby-inquiry-will-have-power-to-force-witnesses-to-give-evidence
    My point was really too often people seem to escape justice because they are too high up. I dont want them found summarily guilty. I do want their culpability examined in court and if charges are relevant they should be charged. Instead currently they seem to get a golden payoff and a promotion
    There are different types of culpability and we really have to be clear which we're talking about:

    1. Disciplinary culpability. Based on what I have read - which will not be a complete picture of course - there is probably some basis for saying that people did not behave as professionally as they should and failed to follow best practice etc.,. Some of that may be personal culpability but some will also be institutional failings eg a failure to have a proper investigation process or a whistleblowing process etc.,.

    2. Criminal responsibility. This is very much harder. There are two possible offences: gross negligence manslaughter or corporate manslaughter. Hard to prove.

    Important not to confuse the two. It is certainly vital to establish a sense of responsibility and accountability so that we do not get this endless rota of people being paid big bucks for responsible jobs but then exhibiting a lack of professionalism, taking no responsibility and moving on without suffering any consequences.

    Whether the criminal law or disciplinary measures are the way to do that will depend on the evidence. But what is also needed is for these organisations to establish strong proper processes to deal with these difficult issues. From what I have read - not just on this case - the NHS has repeatedly failed to do so, despite endless reports telling it to do so and despite there being good examples in other sectors of exactly the sort of processes and teams they need. That - to me - pretty culpable failure is not just down to the managers but also the politicians and managers at the very top responsible for the NHS.
    Thanks for this note of sanity.

    One thing the NHS has us do at a recruitment level of undergrad pharmacy students is to attempt to screen for NHS values. It’s nonsense of course, but we have to do it and record it.

    I would argue we should be aiming to instil said values in the training process rather than crudely trying to weed out psychopaths at 17.

    I hope that the managers involved in the Letby case are horrified at what has happened. It seems clear that whistleblowing is hard to do, and resisted by the NHS, and individual trusts. I see it a bit at the Uni. We had four student deaths last year. I think at least three were suicide, but I don’t know for sure, as they are kept incredibly quiet. The uni would say they are respecting privacy, but I also think there is an element of reputational protection going on.
    I hope the 'NHS values' are not as anodyne, twee, patronising and dishonest as the 'British values' bullshit the DfE makes us teach.

    I always have a wry smile when I come to the one about respecting the rule of law, given how many of them not so much broke as sledgehammered their own lockdown rules.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,918
    ydoethur said:

    ...

    Did you know, that Lord Palmerston claimed descent from Lady Godiva?

    What was he doing on top of her in the first place?
    It was Palmerston. Not known as 'Lord Cupid' for no reason.
    The Boris Johnson of his day?

    (My apologies to his descendents)
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,849

    Cyclefree said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Carnyx said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kle4 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Anyone else looking forward to the Sam Bankman-Fried fraud trial later this year? It seems astonishing so many people bought into what was, at best, utterly incompetent blustering (that is his own defence after all, that he;'s an idiot not a crook), but the crypto world seems fertile ground for scammers.

    Prosecutors have just written to the judge rebutting some of his attempts to get evidence excluded, some of which are pretty creative if prosecutors are accurate.

    Notably, the defendant now complains about something he previously requested: on April 22, 2023, in a letter demand the defendant asked for a copy of all Slack messages, and his counsel reiterated that request on a telephone call four days later. It cannot be that the defendant can strategically make a record of discovery he claims he is entitled to but is not getting, and then when he gets it, move to preclude its use

    https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.nysd.590939/gov.uscourts.nysd.590939.237.0.pdf

    They're also trying to bar all of the expert witnesses he wants to call in a separate matter. Should be fun, and has been surprisingly fast moving.

    Fun fact - both parents of Bankman-Fraud (sp) are lawyers, and faculty members of Stanford Junior University Law School.
    Given the people running FTX apparently dipped into customer accounts to pay for homes for themselves and relatives, among other things, you'd think they could have at least advised their son that he was at best butting up against the law.

    They must be very proud of him - he claims to have been hopelessly bad at running FTX which is why it collapsed, and hasn't much to his name now as a result, but he could post a bail worth millions somehow, which shows real talent.
    He was living in his parents home in lieu of prison until recently . . . when judge revoked his home detention on grounds that he was, among other things, engaged in witness intimidation, against his old girl friend, who worked for FTX but apparently was NOT included in the prime dining car of the bit-coin mega-grifter super-train.
    Has anyone got a list of the financial crimes that weren’t committed at FTX?
    I suspect his parents were proud of him till he got caught. It is the american attitude among those echelelons...rip people off all good..get caught you are a failure. Our similar class are exactly the same as I suspect are the elite of most countries
    They're probably still proud - he still obviously has some amount of ill gotten gains left, which won't be totally eaten up by the criminal trial, which they can benefit from.

    But then the civil complaints are still to come I believe.

    If I ever have kids they are free to still love me but believe I should go to prison for any crimes I commit.
    I should my kids should. It seems to be an attitude only prevalent among the little people though. I won't speak for everyone but frankly I am getting fed up with people taking the piss and getting off because they know people. Avoiding prison when someone like me would get it for far less and failing yet getting a good pay off and a promotion. Time we turn round and do something about it
    You say you want a revolution?

    Well, you know, we all want to change the world.
    I didn't say I wanted a revolution. You misread me. I don't want a revolution because all it means is we get the same shits doing the same stuff just different faces. What I want is people being held to account so they no longer feel they can get away with it.
    To give you an example...the lucy letby case....I want those managers on trial for complicity not allowed to be promoted elsewhere...or retire on health grounds. I want people like cressida dick to be on trial for her decisions that led to the assassination of an innocent electrician.

    Sometimes people make mistakes and I accept that. If those mistakes however lead to deaths or maimings then they should be held to the same standards as anyone else.
    As long as it’s a fair trial, that’s fine, but you seem to have decided, based solely on media reports, that they are guilty (specifically the Letby case). There has been media reports with only one take on events. It may be that the managers were egregiously bad in what they did. However I suspect that it is a very infrequent occurrence to be managing a serial killer, and normalcy bias tends to make people very cautious about suggesting such a thing.
    It’s possible that the managers were conned by Letby, that she was plausible and convincing. Many psychopaths can be charming. If the managers were fooled, what crime have they committed?

    By all means investigate. If there is a reasonable chance of a conviction (I have no idea for what) then bring a case. If they are found guilty then fine.

    But please do not find guilty on just media alone.
    Jus\t noticed this: HMG had to drop plans to makje the inquiry non-statutory, so now they can compel witneses, with current and former staff especially in mind it seems. But no judge, no remit yet.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/aug/30/lucy-letby-inquiry-will-have-power-to-force-witnesses-to-give-evidence
    My point was really too often people seem to escape justice because they are too high up. I dont want them found summarily guilty. I do want their culpability examined in court and if charges are relevant they should be charged. Instead currently they seem to get a golden payoff and a promotion
    There are different types of culpability and we really have to be clear which we're talking about:

    1. Disciplinary culpability. Based on what I have read - which will not be a complete picture of course - there is probably some basis for saying that people did not behave as professionally as they should and failed to follow best practice etc.,. Some of that may be personal culpability but some will also be institutional failings eg a failure to have a proper investigation process or a whistleblowing process etc.,.

    2. Criminal responsibility. This is very much harder. There are two possible offences: gross negligence manslaughter or corporate manslaughter. Hard to prove.

    Important not to confuse the two. It is certainly vital to establish a sense of responsibility and accountability so that we do not get this endless rota of people being paid big bucks for responsible jobs but then exhibiting a lack of professionalism, taking no responsibility and moving on without suffering any consequences.

    Whether the criminal law or disciplinary measures are the way to do that will depend on the evidence. But what is also needed is for these organisations to establish strong proper processes to deal with these difficult issues. From what I have read - not just on this case - the NHS has repeatedly failed to do so, despite endless reports telling it to do so and despite there being good examples in other sectors of exactly the sort of processes and teams they need. That - to me - pretty culpable failure is not just down to the managers but also the politicians and managers at the very top responsible for the NHS.
    Thanks for this note of sanity.

    One thing the NHS has us do at a recruitment level of undergrad pharmacy students is to attempt to screen for NHS values. It’s nonsense of course, but we have to do it and record it.

    I would argue we should be aiming to instil said values in the training process rather than crudely trying to weed out psychopaths at 17.

    I hope that the managers involved in the Letby case are horrified at what has happened. It seems clear that whistleblowing is hard to do, and resisted by the NHS, and individual trusts. I see it a bit at the Uni. We had four student deaths last year. I think at least three were suicide, but I don’t know for sure, as they are kept incredibly quiet. The uni would say they are respecting privacy, but I also think there is an element of reputational protection going on.
    All I have asked is that the managers culpability should be investigated and passed to the cps. I don't see that as a witch hunt. If they were ignoring warnings which resulted in deaths then fuck yes they should be charged. I am not saying they should be charged because of media reporting. I am saying it should be investigated and if the media reports turn out to be true then yes they should be charged.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,918
    Cyclefree said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Carnyx said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Carnyx said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kle4 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Anyone else looking forward to the Sam Bankman-Fried fraud trial later this year? It seems astonishing so many people bought into what was, at best, utterly incompetent blustering (that is his own defence after all, that he;'s an idiot not a crook), but the crypto world seems fertile ground for scammers.

    Prosecutors have just written to the judge rebutting some of his attempts to get evidence excluded, some of which are pretty creative if prosecutors are accurate.

    Notably, the defendant now complains about something he previously requested: on April 22, 2023, in a letter demand the defendant asked for a copy of all Slack messages, and his counsel reiterated that request on a telephone call four days later. It cannot be that the defendant can strategically make a record of discovery he claims he is entitled to but is not getting, and then when he gets it, move to preclude its use

    https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.nysd.590939/gov.uscourts.nysd.590939.237.0.pdf

    They're also trying to bar all of the expert witnesses he wants to call in a separate matter. Should be fun, and has been surprisingly fast moving.

    Fun fact - both parents of Bankman-Fraud (sp) are lawyers, and faculty members of Stanford Junior University Law School.
    Given the people running FTX apparently dipped into customer accounts to pay for homes for themselves and relatives, among other things, you'd think they could have at least advised their son that he was at best butting up against the law.

    They must be very proud of him - he claims to have been hopelessly bad at running FTX which is why it collapsed, and hasn't much to his name now as a result, but he could post a bail worth millions somehow, which shows real talent.
    He was living in his parents home in lieu of prison until recently . . . when judge revoked his home detention on grounds that he was, among other things, engaged in witness intimidation, against his old girl friend, who worked for FTX but apparently was NOT included in the prime dining car of the bit-coin mega-grifter super-train.
    Has anyone got a list of the financial crimes that weren’t committed at FTX?
    I suspect his parents were proud of him till he got caught. It is the american attitude among those echelelons...rip people off all good..get caught you are a failure. Our similar class are exactly the same as I suspect are the elite of most countries
    They're probably still proud - he still obviously has some amount of ill gotten gains left, which won't be totally eaten up by the criminal trial, which they can benefit from.

    But then the civil complaints are still to come I believe.

    If I ever have kids they are free to still love me but believe I should go to prison for any crimes I commit.
    I should my kids should. It seems to be an attitude only prevalent among the little people though. I won't speak for everyone but frankly I am getting fed up with people taking the piss and getting off because they know people. Avoiding prison when someone like me would get it for far less and failing yet getting a good pay off and a promotion. Time we turn round and do something about it
    You say you want a revolution?

    Well, you know, we all want to change the world.
    I didn't say I wanted a revolution. You misread me. I don't want a revolution because all it means is we get the same shits doing the same stuff just different faces. What I want is people being held to account so they no longer feel they can get away with it.
    To give you an example...the lucy letby case....I want those managers on trial for complicity not allowed to be promoted elsewhere...or retire on health grounds. I want people like cressida dick to be on trial for her decisions that led to the assassination of an innocent electrician.

    Sometimes people make mistakes and I accept that. If those mistakes however lead to deaths or maimings then they should be held to the same standards as anyone else.
    As long as it’s a fair trial, that’s fine, but you seem to have decided, based solely on media reports, that they are guilty (specifically the Letby case). There has been media reports with only one take on events. It may be that the managers were egregiously bad in what they did. However I suspect that it is a very infrequent occurrence to be managing a serial killer, and normalcy bias tends to make people very cautious about suggesting such a thing.
    It’s possible that the managers were conned by Letby, that she was plausible and convincing. Many psychopaths can be charming. If the managers were fooled, what crime have they committed?

    By all means investigate. If there is a reasonable chance of a conviction (I have no idea for what) then bring a case. If they are found guilty then fine.

    But please do not find guilty on just media alone.
    Jus\t noticed this: HMG had to drop plans to makje the inquiry non-statutory, so now they can compel witneses, with current and former staff especially in mind it seems. But no judge, no remit yet.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/aug/30/lucy-letby-inquiry-will-have-power-to-force-witnesses-to-give-evidence
    My point was really too often people seem to escape justice because they are too high up. I dont want them found summarily guilty. I do want their culpability examined in court and if charges are relevant they should be charged. Instead currently they seem to get a golden payoff and a promotion
    It does look as if the lawyers to the deceased children's families may get a go at examining them, depending always on what remit HMG gives.
    Examining them isnt enough the police should be looking at the events and passing a file to the cps if they were partly culpable.....same for the post office
    I’m not sure what crime you think they have committed in the Letby case? I think they simply could not believe that ‘nice Lucy’ could be a mass murderer.
    It’s clear that there is not the same professional body/standards required of managers in the health service that is there for the medical professions. Maybe there should be. But it’s not clear to me what crime has been committed.
    The threatening doctors to stop them whistleblowing is misconduct in a public office. For a start. Give them a life sentence each for that. Then we start on giving them some serious time.
    Whistleblowing is my expertise. Seriously.

    Retaliating - or threatening to retaliate - against whistleblowers is an absolute no-no. Grounds for a gross misconduct disciplinary proceeding.

    It is not, however, a criminal offence. Whether the evidence supports a charge of gross negligence manslaughter is another matter.
    Which is probably why a lot of people and organisations continue to believe it doesn't matter. A surprisingly large number of people are of the opinion that if something is not criminal then its fine.
  • SteveSSteveS Posts: 168
    ydoethur said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Carnyx said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Carnyx said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kle4 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Anyone else looking forward to the Sam Bankman-Fried fraud trial later this year? It seems astonishing so many people bought into what was, at best, utterly incompetent blustering (that is his own defence after all, that he;'s an idiot not a crook), but the crypto world seems fertile ground for scammers.

    Prosecutors have just written to the judge rebutting some of his attempts to get evidence excluded, some of which are pretty creative if prosecutors are accurate.

    Notably, the defendant now complains about something he previously requested: on April 22, 2023, in a letter demand the defendant asked for a copy of all Slack messages, and his counsel reiterated that request on a telephone call four days later. It cannot be that the defendant can strategically make a record of discovery he claims he is entitled to but is not getting, and then when he gets it, move to preclude its use

    https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.nysd.590939/gov.uscourts.nysd.590939.237.0.pdf

    They're also trying to bar all of the expert witnesses he wants to call in a separate matter. Should be fun, and has been surprisingly fast moving.

    Fun fact - both parents of Bankman-Fraud (sp) are lawyers, and faculty members of Stanford Junior University Law School.
    Given the people running FTX apparently dipped into customer accounts to pay for homes for themselves and relatives, among other things, you'd think they could have at least advised their son that he was at best butting up against the law.

    They must be very proud of him - he claims to have been hopelessly bad at running FTX which is why it collapsed, and hasn't much to his name now as a result, but he could post a bail worth millions somehow, which shows real talent.
    He was living in his parents home in lieu of prison until recently . . . when judge revoked his home detention on grounds that he was, among other things, engaged in witness intimidation, against his old girl friend, who worked for FTX but apparently was NOT included in the prime dining car of the bit-coin mega-grifter super-train.
    Has anyone got a list of the financial crimes that weren’t committed at FTX?
    I suspect his parents were proud of him till he got caught. It is the american attitude among those echelelons...rip people off all good..get caught you are a failure. Our similar class are exactly the same as I suspect are the elite of most countries
    They're probably still proud - he still obviously has some amount of ill gotten gains left, which won't be totally eaten up by the criminal trial, which they can benefit from.

    But then the civil complaints are still to come I believe.

    If I ever have kids they are free to still love me but believe I should go to prison for any crimes I commit.
    I should my kids should. It seems to be an attitude only prevalent among the little people though. I won't speak for everyone but frankly I am getting fed up with people taking the piss and getting off because they know people. Avoiding prison when someone like me would get it for far less and failing yet getting a good pay off and a promotion. Time we turn round and do something about it
    You say you want a revolution?

    Well, you know, we all want to change the world.
    I didn't say I wanted a revolution. You misread me. I don't want a revolution because all it means is we get the same shits doing the same stuff just different faces. What I want is people being held to account so they no longer feel they can get away with it.
    To give you an example...the lucy letby case....I want those managers on trial for complicity not allowed to be promoted elsewhere...or retire on health grounds. I want people like cressida dick to be on trial for her decisions that led to the assassination of an innocent electrician.

    Sometimes people make mistakes and I accept that. If those mistakes however lead to deaths or maimings then they should be held to the same standards as anyone else.
    As long as it’s a fair trial, that’s fine, but you seem to have decided, based solely on media reports, that they are guilty (specifically the Letby case). There has been media reports with only one take on events. It may be that the managers were egregiously bad in what they did. However I suspect that it is a very infrequent occurrence to be managing a serial killer, and normalcy bias tends to make people very cautious about suggesting such a thing.
    It’s possible that the managers were conned by Letby, that she was plausible and convincing. Many psychopaths can be charming. If the managers were fooled, what crime have they committed?

    By all means investigate. If there is a reasonable chance of a conviction (I have no idea for what) then bring a case. If they are found guilty then fine.

    But please do not find guilty on just media alone.
    Jus\t noticed this: HMG had to drop plans to makje the inquiry non-statutory, so now they can compel witneses, with current and former staff especially in mind it seems. But no judge, no remit yet.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/aug/30/lucy-letby-inquiry-will-have-power-to-force-witnesses-to-give-evidence
    My point was really too often people seem to escape justice because they are too high up. I dont want them found summarily guilty. I do want their culpability examined in court and if charges are relevant they should be charged. Instead currently they seem to get a golden payoff and a promotion
    It does look as if the lawyers to the deceased children's families may get a go at examining them, depending always on what remit HMG gives.
    Examining them isnt enough the police should be looking at the events and passing a file to the cps if they were partly culpable.....same for the post office
    I’m not sure what crime you think they have committed in the Letby case? I think they simply could not believe that ‘nice Lucy’ could be a mass murderer.
    It’s clear that there is not the same professional body/standards required of managers in the health service that is there for the medical professions. Maybe there should be. But it’s not clear to me what crime has been committed.
    The threatening doctors to stop them whistleblowing is misconduct in a public office. For a start. Give them a life sentence each for that. Then we start on giving them some serious time.
    Is an NHS manager in public office?
    I think they would qualify as civil servants, although it's a bit of a grey area.

    Medical staff are not so considered.

    https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/misconduct-public-office
    NHS staff are public sector but not not civil servants.

    Steve.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,918
    ydoethur said:

    Did you know, that Lord Palmerston claimed descent from Lady Godiva?

    thats a naked lie
    We've already had that.

    That's the problem with PB. Punning opportunities come and go in a flash.
    And leaves the person attempting it bare.
  • SteveSSteveS Posts: 168
    Extra not there!
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,611
    Cyclefree said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Carnyx said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Carnyx said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kle4 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Anyone else looking forward to the Sam Bankman-Fried fraud trial later this year? It seems astonishing so many people bought into what was, at best, utterly incompetent blustering (that is his own defence after all, that he;'s an idiot not a crook), but the crypto world seems fertile ground for scammers.

    Prosecutors have just written to the judge rebutting some of his attempts to get evidence excluded, some of which are pretty creative if prosecutors are accurate.

    Notably, the defendant now complains about something he previously requested: on April 22, 2023, in a letter demand the defendant asked for a copy of all Slack messages, and his counsel reiterated that request on a telephone call four days later. It cannot be that the defendant can strategically make a record of discovery he claims he is entitled to but is not getting, and then when he gets it, move to preclude its use

    https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.nysd.590939/gov.uscourts.nysd.590939.237.0.pdf

    They're also trying to bar all of the expert witnesses he wants to call in a separate matter. Should be fun, and has been surprisingly fast moving.

    Fun fact - both parents of Bankman-Fraud (sp) are lawyers, and faculty members of Stanford Junior University Law School.
    Given the people running FTX apparently dipped into customer accounts to pay for homes for themselves and relatives, among other things, you'd think they could have at least advised their son that he was at best butting up against the law.

    They must be very proud of him - he claims to have been hopelessly bad at running FTX which is why it collapsed, and hasn't much to his name now as a result, but he could post a bail worth millions somehow, which shows real talent.
    He was living in his parents home in lieu of prison until recently . . . when judge revoked his home detention on grounds that he was, among other things, engaged in witness intimidation, against his old girl friend, who worked for FTX but apparently was NOT included in the prime dining car of the bit-coin mega-grifter super-train.
    Has anyone got a list of the financial crimes that weren’t committed at FTX?
    I suspect his parents were proud of him till he got caught. It is the american attitude among those echelelons...rip people off all good..get caught you are a failure. Our similar class are exactly the same as I suspect are the elite of most countries
    They're probably still proud - he still obviously has some amount of ill gotten gains left, which won't be totally eaten up by the criminal trial, which they can benefit from.

    But then the civil complaints are still to come I believe.

    If I ever have kids they are free to still love me but believe I should go to prison for any crimes I commit.
    I should my kids should. It seems to be an attitude only prevalent among the little people though. I won't speak for everyone but frankly I am getting fed up with people taking the piss and getting off because they know people. Avoiding prison when someone like me would get it for far less and failing yet getting a good pay off and a promotion. Time we turn round and do something about it
    You say you want a revolution?

    Well, you know, we all want to change the world.
    I didn't say I wanted a revolution. You misread me. I don't want a revolution because all it means is we get the same shits doing the same stuff just different faces. What I want is people being held to account so they no longer feel they can get away with it.
    To give you an example...the lucy letby case....I want those managers on trial for complicity not allowed to be promoted elsewhere...or retire on health grounds. I want people like cressida dick to be on trial for her decisions that led to the assassination of an innocent electrician.

    Sometimes people make mistakes and I accept that. If those mistakes however lead to deaths or maimings then they should be held to the same standards as anyone else.
    As long as it’s a fair trial, that’s fine, but you seem to have decided, based solely on media reports, that they are guilty (specifically the Letby case). There has been media reports with only one take on events. It may be that the managers were egregiously bad in what they did. However I suspect that it is a very infrequent occurrence to be managing a serial killer, and normalcy bias tends to make people very cautious about suggesting such a thing.
    It’s possible that the managers were conned by Letby, that she was plausible and convincing. Many psychopaths can be charming. If the managers were fooled, what crime have they committed?

    By all means investigate. If there is a reasonable chance of a conviction (I have no idea for what) then bring a case. If they are found guilty then fine.

    But please do not find guilty on just media alone.
    Jus\t noticed this: HMG had to drop plans to makje the inquiry non-statutory, so now they can compel witneses, with current and former staff especially in mind it seems. But no judge, no remit yet.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/aug/30/lucy-letby-inquiry-will-have-power-to-force-witnesses-to-give-evidence
    My point was really too often people seem to escape justice because they are too high up. I dont want them found summarily guilty. I do want their culpability examined in court and if charges are relevant they should be charged. Instead currently they seem to get a golden payoff and a promotion
    It does look as if the lawyers to the deceased children's families may get a go at examining them, depending always on what remit HMG gives.
    Examining them isnt enough the police should be looking at the events and passing a file to the cps if they were partly culpable.....same for the post office
    I’m not sure what crime you think they have committed in the Letby case? I think they simply could not believe that ‘nice Lucy’ could be a mass murderer.
    It’s clear that there is not the same professional body/standards required of managers in the health service that is there for the medical professions. Maybe there should be. But it’s not clear to me what crime has been committed.
    The threatening doctors to stop them whistleblowing is misconduct in a public office. For a start. Give them a life sentence each for that. Then we start on giving them some serious time.
    Whistleblowing is my expertise. Seriously.

    Retaliating - or threatening to retaliate - against whistleblowers is an absolute no-no. Grounds for a gross misconduct disciplinary proceeding.

    It is not, however, a criminal offence. Whether the evidence supports a charge of gross negligence manslaughter is another matter.
    Let’s give the doctors hounded by these idiots the yes/no on trying to use misconduct in a public office against these scum.

    It would be an interest point of law. And good to put the fear in others of their kidney
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,195
    ydoethur said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Carnyx said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kle4 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Anyone else looking forward to the Sam Bankman-Fried fraud trial later this year? It seems astonishing so many people bought into what was, at best, utterly incompetent blustering (that is his own defence after all, that he;'s an idiot not a crook), but the crypto world seems fertile ground for scammers.

    Prosecutors have just written to the judge rebutting some of his attempts to get evidence excluded, some of which are pretty creative if prosecutors are accurate.

    Notably, the defendant now complains about something he previously requested: on April 22, 2023, in a letter demand the defendant asked for a copy of all Slack messages, and his counsel reiterated that request on a telephone call four days later. It cannot be that the defendant can strategically make a record of discovery he claims he is entitled to but is not getting, and then when he gets it, move to preclude its use

    https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.nysd.590939/gov.uscourts.nysd.590939.237.0.pdf

    They're also trying to bar all of the expert witnesses he wants to call in a separate matter. Should be fun, and has been surprisingly fast moving.

    Fun fact - both parents of Bankman-Fraud (sp) are lawyers, and faculty members of Stanford Junior University Law School.
    Given the people running FTX apparently dipped into customer accounts to pay for homes for themselves and relatives, among other things, you'd think they could have at least advised their son that he was at best butting up against the law.

    They must be very proud of him - he claims to have been hopelessly bad at running FTX which is why it collapsed, and hasn't much to his name now as a result, but he could post a bail worth millions somehow, which shows real talent.
    He was living in his parents home in lieu of prison until recently . . . when judge revoked his home detention on grounds that he was, among other things, engaged in witness intimidation, against his old girl friend, who worked for FTX but apparently was NOT included in the prime dining car of the bit-coin mega-grifter super-train.
    Has anyone got a list of the financial crimes that weren’t committed at FTX?
    I suspect his parents were proud of him till he got caught. It is the american attitude among those echelelons...rip people off all good..get caught you are a failure. Our similar class are exactly the same as I suspect are the elite of most countries
    They're probably still proud - he still obviously has some amount of ill gotten gains left, which won't be totally eaten up by the criminal trial, which they can benefit from.

    But then the civil complaints are still to come I believe.

    If I ever have kids they are free to still love me but believe I should go to prison for any crimes I commit.
    I should my kids should. It seems to be an attitude only prevalent among the little people though. I won't speak for everyone but frankly I am getting fed up with people taking the piss and getting off because they know people. Avoiding prison when someone like me would get it for far less and failing yet getting a good pay off and a promotion. Time we turn round and do something about it
    You say you want a revolution?

    Well, you know, we all want to change the world.
    I didn't say I wanted a revolution. You misread me. I don't want a revolution because all it means is we get the same shits doing the same stuff just different faces. What I want is people being held to account so they no longer feel they can get away with it.
    To give you an example...the lucy letby case....I want those managers on trial for complicity not allowed to be promoted elsewhere...or retire on health grounds. I want people like cressida dick to be on trial for her decisions that led to the assassination of an innocent electrician.

    Sometimes people make mistakes and I accept that. If those mistakes however lead to deaths or maimings then they should be held to the same standards as anyone else.
    As long as it’s a fair trial, that’s fine, but you seem to have decided, based solely on media reports, that they are guilty (specifically the Letby case). There has been media reports with only one take on events. It may be that the managers were egregiously bad in what they did. However I suspect that it is a very infrequent occurrence to be managing a serial killer, and normalcy bias tends to make people very cautious about suggesting such a thing.
    It’s possible that the managers were conned by Letby, that she was plausible and convincing. Many psychopaths can be charming. If the managers were fooled, what crime have they committed?

    By all means investigate. If there is a reasonable chance of a conviction (I have no idea for what) then bring a case. If they are found guilty then fine.

    But please do not find guilty on just media alone.
    Jus\t noticed this: HMG had to drop plans to makje the inquiry non-statutory, so now they can compel witneses, with current and former staff especially in mind it seems. But no judge, no remit yet.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/aug/30/lucy-letby-inquiry-will-have-power-to-force-witnesses-to-give-evidence
    My point was really too often people seem to escape justice because they are too high up. I dont want them found summarily guilty. I do want their culpability examined in court and if charges are relevant they should be charged. Instead currently they seem to get a golden payoff and a promotion
    There are different types of culpability and we really have to be clear which we're talking about:

    1. Disciplinary culpability. Based on what I have read - which will not be a complete picture of course - there is probably some basis for saying that people did not behave as professionally as they should and failed to follow best practice etc.,. Some of that may be personal culpability but some will also be institutional failings eg a failure to have a proper investigation process or a whistleblowing process etc.,.

    2. Criminal responsibility. This is very much harder. There are two possible offences: gross negligence manslaughter or corporate manslaughter. Hard to prove.

    Important not to confuse the two. It is certainly vital to establish a sense of responsibility and accountability so that we do not get this endless rota of people being paid big bucks for responsible jobs but then exhibiting a lack of professionalism, taking no responsibility and moving on without suffering any consequences.

    Whether the criminal law or disciplinary measures are the way to do that will depend on the evidence. But what is also needed is for these organisations to establish strong proper processes to deal with these difficult issues. From what I have read - not just on this case - the NHS has repeatedly failed to do so, despite endless reports telling it to do so and despite there being good examples in other sectors of exactly the sort of processes and teams they need. That - to me - pretty culpable failure is not just down to the managers but also the politicians and managers at the very top responsible for the NHS.
    Thanks for this note of sanity.

    One thing the NHS has us do at a recruitment level of undergrad pharmacy students is to attempt to screen for NHS values. It’s nonsense of course, but we have to do it and record it.

    I would argue we should be aiming to instil said values in the training process rather than crudely trying to weed out psychopaths at 17.

    I hope that the managers involved in the Letby case are horrified at what has happened. It seems clear that whistleblowing is hard to do, and resisted by the NHS, and individual trusts. I see it a bit at the Uni. We had four student deaths last year. I think at least three were suicide, but I don’t know for sure, as they are kept incredibly quiet. The uni would say they are respecting privacy, but I also think there is an element of reputational protection going on.
    I hope the 'NHS values' are not as anodyne, twee, patronising and dishonest as the 'British values' bullshit the DfE makes us teach.

    I always have a wry smile when I come to the one about respecting the rule of law, given how many of them not so much broke as sledgehammered their own lockdown rules.
    It pretty much is. You can look up NHS values, it’s a real thing. We describe the part of the interview as the Shipman test, trying to screen out psychopaths. Of course, in reality, Shipman would have sailed through, as I sure did Letby.
    But I still need to tick a box labelled ‘suitable to work in healthcare’…
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 4,879
    Leon said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    Tho this might be Peak Puritanical Guardian Travel



    Walking the length of the Wharfe sounds pleasant enough. Some nice scenery and a few very pleasant towns. And I like Bolton Abbey very much. Happy memories of hearing a child fall into the Wharfe while crossing the surprisingly treacherous stepping stones. Happy because improbably it wasn't my child, and I hadn't brought a change of clothes in case of that eventuality.
    Though more pleasant still to cycle it. The Dales are agreeably conducive to cycling, until you reach the end of the dale you're in and have to haul your fat arse over into the next dale.
    Though I'd quibble that the Wharfe is Yorkshire's most famous river. Strikes me as no more famous than the Ouse, Don, Nidd, Aire, Calder, Swale, Derwent, Tees or Hull.

    I rather like British travel writing, as my MSN feed at work has clearly twigged. I like to read about places I might reasonably go - or, even better, about places I have been, and I can enjoy feeling cheerfully exasperated with the writer who has clearly Got It Wrong.
    I like domestic British travel. We still live in a beautiful, historic country, for all our problems

    Indeed I am about to set off on a mini UK road trip (expect pics of drinks in woods)

    I am just empathising with the poor Guardian travel writers, forbidden to go anywhere exotic. My guess is the more talented ones will simply leave

    ydoethur said:

    Flanner said:

    dixiedean said:

    ydoethur said:

    Carnyx said:

    ydoethur said:

    kle4 said:

    ydoethur said:

    FPT

    We have reached a whole new world of plonkerdom on PB when Professor Richard Dawkins is defined as a Christian.

    Yet that is exactly where we are.

    Only on PB.

    Not quite. It's on a minor, unimportant news site as well:

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7136682.stm
    The 'Christian country' 'cultural Christian' topic is just tedious because people talk past one another even more than usual politics. It depends what one means - I'd have little trouble as an atheist referring to the country that way, depending what someone was trying to assert.

    Pretending that common arguments are 'only on PB' as if unique doesn't help either.
    It’s rot though. How can this be a Christian country when the majority of its population disbelieve in the Christian God?

    Clue: it isn’t. Hence why even PRIESTS now say it isn’t!
    You are saying it is impossible to be agnostic about existence of a God, and a Cultural Christian at the same time? Really?

    I think what Dawkins explained in the link Dr Y gave us seemed very plausible. A religion like Christianity isn’t just a philosophical concept, it’s cultural/tribal too.

    I’m sure I have read on PB very good stuff about Cultural Folkways in Britain, their relation to the English Civil war, how these same cultural behaviours travelled to the United States and played role in their Civil War too.
    Christianity without Christ is sophistical crap.
    But being without that philosophical element only allows examples, like Anabob, a perfect example, to, yes, get away with saying they are not strictly a Christian, but by being so culturally Christian they cannot get away with saying they “are in no way Christian, not even a teeny weeny bit.”

    They do need concede this fact.
    If they introduced payment by tapping instead of the collection bowl he'd be there like a shot.
    Well, good news! Cannock Church has.

    They bought one in the pandemic and can't be bothered to get rid of it.
    I've always thought that the weekly collection was hopelessly tax-inefficient, at least where it is for purposes that are legitimate for charity purposes. But maybe they now get the congregation to do Gift Aid now that it is electronic?
    Most members of the congregation give by standing order.

    But if you give weekly, you can fill out an envelope with a gift aid declaration on it. So it isn't tax inefficient from that point of view.
    Does the RC Church do the same?
    But with standing, kneeling, sitting, kneeling, sitting, Standing Orders?
    70% of donations to GWD Donation Stations in the UK are Gift Aided. (https://gwd.team/) The only reason my Catholic church doesn't use the technology is that it's located inconveniently for online transaction approval.

    Bizarrely: at the Coronation celebration at our local Anglican cathedral, almost no-one could contribute to the door collection because we - most of us routinely church-going - didn't have cash with us, assuming we'd be able to contribute by card.
    I am surprised to find an Anglican cathedral that doesn't take cards. Most of them do in their shops and cafes.

    Depends a bit of course on which cathedral it was. If it was a non-touristy one like Derby or Blackburn it would make more sense than if it were, say, York Minster.
    Flanner is right - this particular cathedral doesn't take cards. Nor does it have a shop or a cafe. Yet despite that it's very touristy. I've probably narrowed it down enough by now ;)

    Mrs Capitano knows the Dean, and we both know the Diocesan Canon well, so we might suggest it...
    Given the difficulty in finding a local bank with a night safe for the collection, all churches should encourage card payment and direct debits.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,611
    SteveS said:

    ydoethur said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Carnyx said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Carnyx said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kle4 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Anyone else looking forward to the Sam Bankman-Fried fraud trial later this year? It seems astonishing so many people bought into what was, at best, utterly incompetent blustering (that is his own defence after all, that he;'s an idiot not a crook), but the crypto world seems fertile ground for scammers.

    Prosecutors have just written to the judge rebutting some of his attempts to get evidence excluded, some of which are pretty creative if prosecutors are accurate.

    Notably, the defendant now complains about something he previously requested: on April 22, 2023, in a letter demand the defendant asked for a copy of all Slack messages, and his counsel reiterated that request on a telephone call four days later. It cannot be that the defendant can strategically make a record of discovery he claims he is entitled to but is not getting, and then when he gets it, move to preclude its use

    https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.nysd.590939/gov.uscourts.nysd.590939.237.0.pdf

    They're also trying to bar all of the expert witnesses he wants to call in a separate matter. Should be fun, and has been surprisingly fast moving.

    Fun fact - both parents of Bankman-Fraud (sp) are lawyers, and faculty members of Stanford Junior University Law School.
    Given the people running FTX apparently dipped into customer accounts to pay for homes for themselves and relatives, among other things, you'd think they could have at least advised their son that he was at best butting up against the law.

    They must be very proud of him - he claims to have been hopelessly bad at running FTX which is why it collapsed, and hasn't much to his name now as a result, but he could post a bail worth millions somehow, which shows real talent.
    He was living in his parents home in lieu of prison until recently . . . when judge revoked his home detention on grounds that he was, among other things, engaged in witness intimidation, against his old girl friend, who worked for FTX but apparently was NOT included in the prime dining car of the bit-coin mega-grifter super-train.
    Has anyone got a list of the financial crimes that weren’t committed at FTX?
    I suspect his parents were proud of him till he got caught. It is the american attitude among those echelelons...rip people off all good..get caught you are a failure. Our similar class are exactly the same as I suspect are the elite of most countries
    They're probably still proud - he still obviously has some amount of ill gotten gains left, which won't be totally eaten up by the criminal trial, which they can benefit from.

    But then the civil complaints are still to come I believe.

    If I ever have kids they are free to still love me but believe I should go to prison for any crimes I commit.
    I should my kids should. It seems to be an attitude only prevalent among the little people though. I won't speak for everyone but frankly I am getting fed up with people taking the piss and getting off because they know people. Avoiding prison when someone like me would get it for far less and failing yet getting a good pay off and a promotion. Time we turn round and do something about it
    You say you want a revolution?

    Well, you know, we all want to change the world.
    I didn't say I wanted a revolution. You misread me. I don't want a revolution because all it means is we get the same shits doing the same stuff just different faces. What I want is people being held to account so they no longer feel they can get away with it.
    To give you an example...the lucy letby case....I want those managers on trial for complicity not allowed to be promoted elsewhere...or retire on health grounds. I want people like cressida dick to be on trial for her decisions that led to the assassination of an innocent electrician.

    Sometimes people make mistakes and I accept that. If those mistakes however lead to deaths or maimings then they should be held to the same standards as anyone else.
    As long as it’s a fair trial, that’s fine, but you seem to have decided, based solely on media reports, that they are guilty (specifically the Letby case). There has been media reports with only one take on events. It may be that the managers were egregiously bad in what they did. However I suspect that it is a very infrequent occurrence to be managing a serial killer, and normalcy bias tends to make people very cautious about suggesting such a thing.
    It’s possible that the managers were conned by Letby, that she was plausible and convincing. Many psychopaths can be charming. If the managers were fooled, what crime have they committed?

    By all means investigate. If there is a reasonable chance of a conviction (I have no idea for what) then bring a case. If they are found guilty then fine.

    But please do not find guilty on just media alone.
    Jus\t noticed this: HMG had to drop plans to makje the inquiry non-statutory, so now they can compel witneses, with current and former staff especially in mind it seems. But no judge, no remit yet.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/aug/30/lucy-letby-inquiry-will-have-power-to-force-witnesses-to-give-evidence
    My point was really too often people seem to escape justice because they are too high up. I dont want them found summarily guilty. I do want their culpability examined in court and if charges are relevant they should be charged. Instead currently they seem to get a golden payoff and a promotion
    It does look as if the lawyers to the deceased children's families may get a go at examining them, depending always on what remit HMG gives.
    Examining them isnt enough the police should be looking at the events and passing a file to the cps if they were partly culpable.....same for the post office
    I’m not sure what crime you think they have committed in the Letby case? I think they simply could not believe that ‘nice Lucy’ could be a mass murderer.
    It’s clear that there is not the same professional body/standards required of managers in the health service that is there for the medical professions. Maybe there should be. But it’s not clear to me what crime has been committed.
    The threatening doctors to stop them whistleblowing is misconduct in a public office. For a start. Give them a life sentence each for that. Then we start on giving them some serious time.
    Is an NHS manager in public office?
    I think they would qualify as civil servants, although it's a bit of a grey area.

    Medical staff are not so considered.

    https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/misconduct-public-office
    NHS staff are public sector but not not civil servants.

    Steve.
    Police are not civil servants and have been prosecuted for misconduct in a public office.

    Let’s arraign this lot and see how the law decides.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,175
    kle4 said:

    ydoethur said:

    ...

    Did you know, that Lord Palmerston claimed descent from Lady Godiva?

    What was he doing on top of her in the first place?
    It was Palmerston. Not known as 'Lord Cupid' for no reason.
    The Boris Johnson of his day?

    (My apologies to his descendents)
    I don't think he had any official descendants.

    But the Earls of Arran are descended from a woman who was probably his daughter, and he fathered at least one son about whom I think the only thing we know for definite is the first name, 'Nicholas.'
  • ydoethur said:

    kle4 said:

    ydoethur said:

    ...

    Did you know, that Lord Palmerston claimed descent from Lady Godiva?

    What was he doing on top of her in the first place?
    It was Palmerston. Not known as 'Lord Cupid' for no reason.
    The Boris Johnson of his day?

    (My apologies to his descendents)
    I don't think he had any official descendants.

    But the Earls of Arran are descended from a woman who was probably his daughter, and he fathered at least one son about whom I think the only thing we know for definite is the first name, 'Nicholas.'
    Tribute to Lady Godiva?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,918

    ydoethur said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Carnyx said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kle4 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Anyone else looking forward to the Sam Bankman-Fried fraud trial later this year? It seems astonishing so many people bought into what was, at best, utterly incompetent blustering (that is his own defence after all, that he;'s an idiot not a crook), but the crypto world seems fertile ground for scammers.

    Prosecutors have just written to the judge rebutting some of his attempts to get evidence excluded, some of which are pretty creative if prosecutors are accurate.

    Notably, the defendant now complains about something he previously requested: on April 22, 2023, in a letter demand the defendant asked for a copy of all Slack messages, and his counsel reiterated that request on a telephone call four days later. It cannot be that the defendant can strategically make a record of discovery he claims he is entitled to but is not getting, and then when he gets it, move to preclude its use

    https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.nysd.590939/gov.uscourts.nysd.590939.237.0.pdf

    They're also trying to bar all of the expert witnesses he wants to call in a separate matter. Should be fun, and has been surprisingly fast moving.

    Fun fact - both parents of Bankman-Fraud (sp) are lawyers, and faculty members of Stanford Junior University Law School.
    Given the people running FTX apparently dipped into customer accounts to pay for homes for themselves and relatives, among other things, you'd think they could have at least advised their son that he was at best butting up against the law.

    They must be very proud of him - he claims to have been hopelessly bad at running FTX which is why it collapsed, and hasn't much to his name now as a result, but he could post a bail worth millions somehow, which shows real talent.
    He was living in his parents home in lieu of prison until recently . . . when judge revoked his home detention on grounds that he was, among other things, engaged in witness intimidation, against his old girl friend, who worked for FTX but apparently was NOT included in the prime dining car of the bit-coin mega-grifter super-train.
    Has anyone got a list of the financial crimes that weren’t committed at FTX?
    I suspect his parents were proud of him till he got caught. It is the american attitude among those echelelons...rip people off all good..get caught you are a failure. Our similar class are exactly the same as I suspect are the elite of most countries
    They're probably still proud - he still obviously has some amount of ill gotten gains left, which won't be totally eaten up by the criminal trial, which they can benefit from.

    But then the civil complaints are still to come I believe.

    If I ever have kids they are free to still love me but believe I should go to prison for any crimes I commit.
    I should my kids should. It seems to be an attitude only prevalent among the little people though. I won't speak for everyone but frankly I am getting fed up with people taking the piss and getting off because they know people. Avoiding prison when someone like me would get it for far less and failing yet getting a good pay off and a promotion. Time we turn round and do something about it
    You say you want a revolution?

    Well, you know, we all want to change the world.
    I didn't say I wanted a revolution. You misread me. I don't want a revolution because all it means is we get the same shits doing the same stuff just different faces. What I want is people being held to account so they no longer feel they can get away with it.
    To give you an example...the lucy letby case....I want those managers on trial for complicity not allowed to be promoted elsewhere...or retire on health grounds. I want people like cressida dick to be on trial for her decisions that led to the assassination of an innocent electrician.

    Sometimes people make mistakes and I accept that. If those mistakes however lead to deaths or maimings then they should be held to the same standards as anyone else.
    As long as it’s a fair trial, that’s fine, but you seem to have decided, based solely on media reports, that they are guilty (specifically the Letby case). There has been media reports with only one take on events. It may be that the managers were egregiously bad in what they did. However I suspect that it is a very infrequent occurrence to be managing a serial killer, and normalcy bias tends to make people very cautious about suggesting such a thing.
    It’s possible that the managers were conned by Letby, that she was plausible and convincing. Many psychopaths can be charming. If the managers were fooled, what crime have they committed?

    By all means investigate. If there is a reasonable chance of a conviction (I have no idea for what) then bring a case. If they are found guilty then fine.

    But please do not find guilty on just media alone.
    Jus\t noticed this: HMG had to drop plans to makje the inquiry non-statutory, so now they can compel witneses, with current and former staff especially in mind it seems. But no judge, no remit yet.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/aug/30/lucy-letby-inquiry-will-have-power-to-force-witnesses-to-give-evidence
    My point was really too often people seem to escape justice because they are too high up. I dont want them found summarily guilty. I do want their culpability examined in court and if charges are relevant they should be charged. Instead currently they seem to get a golden payoff and a promotion
    There are different types of culpability and we really have to be clear which we're talking about:

    1. Disciplinary culpability. Based on what I have read - which will not be a complete picture of course - there is probably some basis for saying that people did not behave as professionally as they should and failed to follow best practice etc.,. Some of that may be personal culpability but some will also be institutional failings eg a failure to have a proper investigation process or a whistleblowing process etc.,.

    2. Criminal responsibility. This is very much harder. There are two possible offences: gross negligence manslaughter or corporate manslaughter. Hard to prove.

    Important not to confuse the two. It is certainly vital to establish a sense of responsibility and accountability so that we do not get this endless rota of people being paid big bucks for responsible jobs but then exhibiting a lack of professionalism, taking no responsibility and moving on without suffering any consequences.

    Whether the criminal law or disciplinary measures are the way to do that will depend on the evidence. But what is also needed is for these organisations to establish strong proper processes to deal with these difficult issues. From what I have read - not just on this case - the NHS has repeatedly failed to do so, despite endless reports telling it to do so and despite there being good examples in other sectors of exactly the sort of processes and teams they need. That - to me - pretty culpable failure is not just down to the managers but also the politicians and managers at the very top responsible for the NHS.
    Thanks for this note of sanity.

    One thing the NHS has us do at a recruitment level of undergrad pharmacy students is to attempt to screen for NHS values. It’s nonsense of course, but we have to do it and record it.

    I would argue we should be aiming to instil said values in the training process rather than crudely trying to weed out psychopaths at 17.

    I hope that the managers involved in the Letby case are horrified at what has happened. It seems clear that whistleblowing is hard to do, and resisted by the NHS, and individual trusts. I see it a bit at the Uni. We had four student deaths last year. I think at least three were suicide, but I don’t know for sure, as they are kept incredibly quiet. The uni would say they are respecting privacy, but I also think there is an element of reputational protection going on.
    I hope the 'NHS values' are not as anodyne, twee, patronising and dishonest as the 'British values' bullshit the DfE makes us teach.

    I always have a wry smile when I come to the one about respecting the rule of law, given how many of them not so much broke as sledgehammered their own lockdown rules.
    It pretty much is. You can look up NHS values, it’s a real thing. We describe the part of the interview as the Shipman test, trying to screen out psychopaths. Of course, in reality, Shipman would have sailed through, as I sure did Letby.
    But I still need to tick a box labelled ‘suitable to work in healthcare’…
    Is that really its purpose?!

    That's like expecting people to answer honestly to an 'Are you a terrorist?' question on a visa application form.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,175
    kle4 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Carnyx said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kle4 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Anyone else looking forward to the Sam Bankman-Fried fraud trial later this year? It seems astonishing so many people bought into what was, at best, utterly incompetent blustering (that is his own defence after all, that he;'s an idiot not a crook), but the crypto world seems fertile ground for scammers.

    Prosecutors have just written to the judge rebutting some of his attempts to get evidence excluded, some of which are pretty creative if prosecutors are accurate.

    Notably, the defendant now complains about something he previously requested: on April 22, 2023, in a letter demand the defendant asked for a copy of all Slack messages, and his counsel reiterated that request on a telephone call four days later. It cannot be that the defendant can strategically make a record of discovery he claims he is entitled to but is not getting, and then when he gets it, move to preclude its use

    https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.nysd.590939/gov.uscourts.nysd.590939.237.0.pdf

    They're also trying to bar all of the expert witnesses he wants to call in a separate matter. Should be fun, and has been surprisingly fast moving.

    Fun fact - both parents of Bankman-Fraud (sp) are lawyers, and faculty members of Stanford Junior University Law School.
    Given the people running FTX apparently dipped into customer accounts to pay for homes for themselves and relatives, among other things, you'd think they could have at least advised their son that he was at best butting up against the law.

    They must be very proud of him - he claims to have been hopelessly bad at running FTX which is why it collapsed, and hasn't much to his name now as a result, but he could post a bail worth millions somehow, which shows real talent.
    He was living in his parents home in lieu of prison until recently . . . when judge revoked his home detention on grounds that he was, among other things, engaged in witness intimidation, against his old girl friend, who worked for FTX but apparently was NOT included in the prime dining car of the bit-coin mega-grifter super-train.
    Has anyone got a list of the financial crimes that weren’t committed at FTX?
    I suspect his parents were proud of him till he got caught. It is the american attitude among those echelelons...rip people off all good..get caught you are a failure. Our similar class are exactly the same as I suspect are the elite of most countries
    They're probably still proud - he still obviously has some amount of ill gotten gains left, which won't be totally eaten up by the criminal trial, which they can benefit from.

    But then the civil complaints are still to come I believe.

    If I ever have kids they are free to still love me but believe I should go to prison for any crimes I commit.
    I should my kids should. It seems to be an attitude only prevalent among the little people though. I won't speak for everyone but frankly I am getting fed up with people taking the piss and getting off because they know people. Avoiding prison when someone like me would get it for far less and failing yet getting a good pay off and a promotion. Time we turn round and do something about it
    You say you want a revolution?

    Well, you know, we all want to change the world.
    I didn't say I wanted a revolution. You misread me. I don't want a revolution because all it means is we get the same shits doing the same stuff just different faces. What I want is people being held to account so they no longer feel they can get away with it.
    To give you an example...the lucy letby case....I want those managers on trial for complicity not allowed to be promoted elsewhere...or retire on health grounds. I want people like cressida dick to be on trial for her decisions that led to the assassination of an innocent electrician.

    Sometimes people make mistakes and I accept that. If those mistakes however lead to deaths or maimings then they should be held to the same standards as anyone else.
    As long as it’s a fair trial, that’s fine, but you seem to have decided, based solely on media reports, that they are guilty (specifically the Letby case). There has been media reports with only one take on events. It may be that the managers were egregiously bad in what they did. However I suspect that it is a very infrequent occurrence to be managing a serial killer, and normalcy bias tends to make people very cautious about suggesting such a thing.
    It’s possible that the managers were conned by Letby, that she was plausible and convincing. Many psychopaths can be charming. If the managers were fooled, what crime have they committed?

    By all means investigate. If there is a reasonable chance of a conviction (I have no idea for what) then bring a case. If they are found guilty then fine.

    But please do not find guilty on just media alone.
    Jus\t noticed this: HMG had to drop plans to makje the inquiry non-statutory, so now they can compel witneses, with current and former staff especially in mind it seems. But no judge, no remit yet.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/aug/30/lucy-letby-inquiry-will-have-power-to-force-witnesses-to-give-evidence
    My point was really too often people seem to escape justice because they are too high up. I dont want them found summarily guilty. I do want their culpability examined in court and if charges are relevant they should be charged. Instead currently they seem to get a golden payoff and a promotion
    There are different types of culpability and we really have to be clear which we're talking about:

    1. Disciplinary culpability. Based on what I have read - which will not be a complete picture of course - there is probably some basis for saying that people did not behave as professionally as they should and failed to follow best practice etc.,. Some of that may be personal culpability but some will also be institutional failings eg a failure to have a proper investigation process or a whistleblowing process etc.,.

    2. Criminal responsibility. This is very much harder. There are two possible offences: gross negligence manslaughter or corporate manslaughter. Hard to prove.

    Important not to confuse the two. It is certainly vital to establish a sense of responsibility and accountability so that we do not get this endless rota of people being paid big bucks for responsible jobs but then exhibiting a lack of professionalism, taking no responsibility and moving on without suffering any consequences.

    Whether the criminal law or disciplinary measures are the way to do that will depend on the evidence. But what is also needed is for these organisations to establish strong proper processes to deal with these difficult issues. From what I have read - not just on this case - the NHS has repeatedly failed to do so, despite endless reports telling it to do so and despite there being good examples in other sectors of exactly the sort of processes and teams they need. That - to me - pretty culpable failure is not just down to the managers but also the politicians and managers at the very top responsible for the NHS.
    Thanks for this note of sanity.

    One thing the NHS has us do at a recruitment level of undergrad pharmacy students is to attempt to screen for NHS values. It’s nonsense of course, but we have to do it and record it.

    I would argue we should be aiming to instil said values in the training process rather than crudely trying to weed out psychopaths at 17.

    I hope that the managers involved in the Letby case are horrified at what has happened. It seems clear that whistleblowing is hard to do, and resisted by the NHS, and individual trusts. I see it a bit at the Uni. We had four student deaths last year. I think at least three were suicide, but I don’t know for sure, as they are kept incredibly quiet. The uni would say they are respecting privacy, but I also think there is an element of reputational protection going on.
    I hope the 'NHS values' are not as anodyne, twee, patronising and dishonest as the 'British values' bullshit the DfE makes us teach.

    I always have a wry smile when I come to the one about respecting the rule of law, given how many of them not so much broke as sledgehammered their own lockdown rules.
    It pretty much is. You can look up NHS values, it’s a real thing. We describe the part of the interview as the Shipman test, trying to screen out psychopaths. Of course, in reality, Shipman would have sailed through, as I sure did Letby.
    But I still need to tick a box labelled ‘suitable to work in healthcare’…
    Is that really its purpose?!

    That's like expecting people to answer honestly to an 'Are you a terrorist?' question on a visa application form.
    That at least had a purpose.

    If you lied, you didn't have a valid visa and could be deported forthwith with none of that legal bullshit.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,195
    kle4 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Carnyx said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kle4 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Anyone else looking forward to the Sam Bankman-Fried fraud trial later this year? It seems astonishing so many people bought into what was, at best, utterly incompetent blustering (that is his own defence after all, that he;'s an idiot not a crook), but the crypto world seems fertile ground for scammers.

    Prosecutors have just written to the judge rebutting some of his attempts to get evidence excluded, some of which are pretty creative if prosecutors are accurate.

    Notably, the defendant now complains about something he previously requested: on April 22, 2023, in a letter demand the defendant asked for a copy of all Slack messages, and his counsel reiterated that request on a telephone call four days later. It cannot be that the defendant can strategically make a record of discovery he claims he is entitled to but is not getting, and then when he gets it, move to preclude its use

    https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.nysd.590939/gov.uscourts.nysd.590939.237.0.pdf

    They're also trying to bar all of the expert witnesses he wants to call in a separate matter. Should be fun, and has been surprisingly fast moving.

    Fun fact - both parents of Bankman-Fraud (sp) are lawyers, and faculty members of Stanford Junior University Law School.
    Given the people running FTX apparently dipped into customer accounts to pay for homes for themselves and relatives, among other things, you'd think they could have at least advised their son that he was at best butting up against the law.

    They must be very proud of him - he claims to have been hopelessly bad at running FTX which is why it collapsed, and hasn't much to his name now as a result, but he could post a bail worth millions somehow, which shows real talent.
    He was living in his parents home in lieu of prison until recently . . . when judge revoked his home detention on grounds that he was, among other things, engaged in witness intimidation, against his old girl friend, who worked for FTX but apparently was NOT included in the prime dining car of the bit-coin mega-grifter super-train.
    Has anyone got a list of the financial crimes that weren’t committed at FTX?
    I suspect his parents were proud of him till he got caught. It is the american attitude among those echelelons...rip people off all good..get caught you are a failure. Our similar class are exactly the same as I suspect are the elite of most countries
    They're probably still proud - he still obviously has some amount of ill gotten gains left, which won't be totally eaten up by the criminal trial, which they can benefit from.

    But then the civil complaints are still to come I believe.

    If I ever have kids they are free to still love me but believe I should go to prison for any crimes I commit.
    I should my kids should. It seems to be an attitude only prevalent among the little people though. I won't speak for everyone but frankly I am getting fed up with people taking the piss and getting off because they know people. Avoiding prison when someone like me would get it for far less and failing yet getting a good pay off and a promotion. Time we turn round and do something about it
    You say you want a revolution?

    Well, you know, we all want to change the world.
    I didn't say I wanted a revolution. You misread me. I don't want a revolution because all it means is we get the same shits doing the same stuff just different faces. What I want is people being held to account so they no longer feel they can get away with it.
    To give you an example...the lucy letby case....I want those managers on trial for complicity not allowed to be promoted elsewhere...or retire on health grounds. I want people like cressida dick to be on trial for her decisions that led to the assassination of an innocent electrician.

    Sometimes people make mistakes and I accept that. If those mistakes however lead to deaths or maimings then they should be held to the same standards as anyone else.
    As long as it’s a fair trial, that’s fine, but you seem to have decided, based solely on media reports, that they are guilty (specifically the Letby case). There has been media reports with only one take on events. It may be that the managers were egregiously bad in what they did. However I suspect that it is a very infrequent occurrence to be managing a serial killer, and normalcy bias tends to make people very cautious about suggesting such a thing.
    It’s possible that the managers were conned by Letby, that she was plausible and convincing. Many psychopaths can be charming. If the managers were fooled, what crime have they committed?

    By all means investigate. If there is a reasonable chance of a conviction (I have no idea for what) then bring a case. If they are found guilty then fine.

    But please do not find guilty on just media alone.
    Jus\t noticed this: HMG had to drop plans to makje the inquiry non-statutory, so now they can compel witneses, with current and former staff especially in mind it seems. But no judge, no remit yet.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/aug/30/lucy-letby-inquiry-will-have-power-to-force-witnesses-to-give-evidence
    My point was really too often people seem to escape justice because they are too high up. I dont want them found summarily guilty. I do want their culpability examined in court and if charges are relevant they should be charged. Instead currently they seem to get a golden payoff and a promotion
    There are different types of culpability and we really have to be clear which we're talking about:

    1. Disciplinary culpability. Based on what I have read - which will not be a complete picture of course - there is probably some basis for saying that people did not behave as professionally as they should and failed to follow best practice etc.,. Some of that may be personal culpability but some will also be institutional failings eg a failure to have a proper investigation process or a whistleblowing process etc.,.

    2. Criminal responsibility. This is very much harder. There are two possible offences: gross negligence manslaughter or corporate manslaughter. Hard to prove.

    Important not to confuse the two. It is certainly vital to establish a sense of responsibility and accountability so that we do not get this endless rota of people being paid big bucks for responsible jobs but then exhibiting a lack of professionalism, taking no responsibility and moving on without suffering any consequences.

    Whether the criminal law or disciplinary measures are the way to do that will depend on the evidence. But what is also needed is for these organisations to establish strong proper processes to deal with these difficult issues. From what I have read - not just on this case - the NHS has repeatedly failed to do so, despite endless reports telling it to do so and despite there being good examples in other sectors of exactly the sort of processes and teams they need. That - to me - pretty culpable failure is not just down to the managers but also the politicians and managers at the very top responsible for the NHS.
    Thanks for this note of sanity.

    One thing the NHS has us do at a recruitment level of undergrad pharmacy students is to attempt to screen for NHS values. It’s nonsense of course, but we have to do it and record it.

    I would argue we should be aiming to instil said values in the training process rather than crudely trying to weed out psychopaths at 17.

    I hope that the managers involved in the Letby case are horrified at what has happened. It seems clear that whistleblowing is hard to do, and resisted by the NHS, and individual trusts. I see it a bit at the Uni. We had four student deaths last year. I think at least three were suicide, but I don’t know for sure, as they are kept incredibly quiet. The uni would say they are respecting privacy, but I also think there is an element of reputational protection going on.
    I hope the 'NHS values' are not as anodyne, twee, patronising and dishonest as the 'British values' bullshit the DfE makes us teach.

    I always have a wry smile when I come to the one about respecting the rule of law, given how many of them not so much broke as sledgehammered their own lockdown rules.
    It pretty much is. You can look up NHS values, it’s a real thing. We describe the part of the interview as the Shipman test, trying to screen out psychopaths. Of course, in reality, Shipman would have sailed through, as I sure did Letby.
    But I still need to tick a box labelled ‘suitable to work in healthcare’…
    Is that really its purpose?!

    That's like expecting people to answer honestly to an 'Are you a terrorist?' question on a visa application form.
    It may not be the official purpose, but I cannot find any better reason to ask the questions…
  • Another fun fact re: Pam - Lord Palmerston first entered the House of Commons as MP for Newport.

    Which he won in 1807 general election, after paying £4,000 AND promising to never set foot in the constituency.
  • kle4 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Carnyx said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kle4 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Anyone else looking forward to the Sam Bankman-Fried fraud trial later this year? It seems astonishing so many people bought into what was, at best, utterly incompetent blustering (that is his own defence after all, that he;'s an idiot not a crook), but the crypto world seems fertile ground for scammers.

    Prosecutors have just written to the judge rebutting some of his attempts to get evidence excluded, some of which are pretty creative if prosecutors are accurate.

    Notably, the defendant now complains about something he previously requested: on April 22, 2023, in a letter demand the defendant asked for a copy of all Slack messages, and his counsel reiterated that request on a telephone call four days later. It cannot be that the defendant can strategically make a record of discovery he claims he is entitled to but is not getting, and then when he gets it, move to preclude its use

    https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.nysd.590939/gov.uscourts.nysd.590939.237.0.pdf

    They're also trying to bar all of the expert witnesses he wants to call in a separate matter. Should be fun, and has been surprisingly fast moving.

    Fun fact - both parents of Bankman-Fraud (sp) are lawyers, and faculty members of Stanford Junior University Law School.
    Given the people running FTX apparently dipped into customer accounts to pay for homes for themselves and relatives, among other things, you'd think they could have at least advised their son that he was at best butting up against the law.

    They must be very proud of him - he claims to have been hopelessly bad at running FTX which is why it collapsed, and hasn't much to his name now as a result, but he could post a bail worth millions somehow, which shows real talent.
    He was living in his parents home in lieu of prison until recently . . . when judge revoked his home detention on grounds that he was, among other things, engaged in witness intimidation, against his old girl friend, who worked for FTX but apparently was NOT included in the prime dining car of the bit-coin mega-grifter super-train.
    Has anyone got a list of the financial crimes that weren’t committed at FTX?
    I suspect his parents were proud of him till he got caught. It is the american attitude among those echelelons...rip people off all good..get caught you are a failure. Our similar class are exactly the same as I suspect are the elite of most countries
    They're probably still proud - he still obviously has some amount of ill gotten gains left, which won't be totally eaten up by the criminal trial, which they can benefit from.

    But then the civil complaints are still to come I believe.

    If I ever have kids they are free to still love me but believe I should go to prison for any crimes I commit.
    I should my kids should. It seems to be an attitude only prevalent among the little people though. I won't speak for everyone but frankly I am getting fed up with people taking the piss and getting off because they know people. Avoiding prison when someone like me would get it for far less and failing yet getting a good pay off and a promotion. Time we turn round and do something about it
    You say you want a revolution?

    Well, you know, we all want to change the world.
    I didn't say I wanted a revolution. You misread me. I don't want a revolution because all it means is we get the same shits doing the same stuff just different faces. What I want is people being held to account so they no longer feel they can get away with it.
    To give you an example...the lucy letby case....I want those managers on trial for complicity not allowed to be promoted elsewhere...or retire on health grounds. I want people like cressida dick to be on trial for her decisions that led to the assassination of an innocent electrician.

    Sometimes people make mistakes and I accept that. If those mistakes however lead to deaths or maimings then they should be held to the same standards as anyone else.
    As long as it’s a fair trial, that’s fine, but you seem to have decided, based solely on media reports, that they are guilty (specifically the Letby case). There has been media reports with only one take on events. It may be that the managers were egregiously bad in what they did. However I suspect that it is a very infrequent occurrence to be managing a serial killer, and normalcy bias tends to make people very cautious about suggesting such a thing.
    It’s possible that the managers were conned by Letby, that she was plausible and convincing. Many psychopaths can be charming. If the managers were fooled, what crime have they committed?

    By all means investigate. If there is a reasonable chance of a conviction (I have no idea for what) then bring a case. If they are found guilty then fine.

    But please do not find guilty on just media alone.
    Jus\t noticed this: HMG had to drop plans to makje the inquiry non-statutory, so now they can compel witneses, with current and former staff especially in mind it seems. But no judge, no remit yet.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/aug/30/lucy-letby-inquiry-will-have-power-to-force-witnesses-to-give-evidence
    My point was really too often people seem to escape justice because they are too high up. I dont want them found summarily guilty. I do want their culpability examined in court and if charges are relevant they should be charged. Instead currently they seem to get a golden payoff and a promotion
    There are different types of culpability and we really have to be clear which we're talking about:

    1. Disciplinary culpability. Based on what I have read - which will not be a complete picture of course - there is probably some basis for saying that people did not behave as professionally as they should and failed to follow best practice etc.,. Some of that may be personal culpability but some will also be institutional failings eg a failure to have a proper investigation process or a whistleblowing process etc.,.

    2. Criminal responsibility. This is very much harder. There are two possible offences: gross negligence manslaughter or corporate manslaughter. Hard to prove.

    Important not to confuse the two. It is certainly vital to establish a sense of responsibility and accountability so that we do not get this endless rota of people being paid big bucks for responsible jobs but then exhibiting a lack of professionalism, taking no responsibility and moving on without suffering any consequences.

    Whether the criminal law or disciplinary measures are the way to do that will depend on the evidence. But what is also needed is for these organisations to establish strong proper processes to deal with these difficult issues. From what I have read - not just on this case - the NHS has repeatedly failed to do so, despite endless reports telling it to do so and despite there being good examples in other sectors of exactly the sort of processes and teams they need. That - to me - pretty culpable failure is not just down to the managers but also the politicians and managers at the very top responsible for the NHS.
    Thanks for this note of sanity.

    One thing the NHS has us do at a recruitment level of undergrad pharmacy students is to attempt to screen for NHS values. It’s nonsense of course, but we have to do it and record it.

    I would argue we should be aiming to instil said values in the training process rather than crudely trying to weed out psychopaths at 17.

    I hope that the managers involved in the Letby case are horrified at what has happened. It seems clear that whistleblowing is hard to do, and resisted by the NHS, and individual trusts. I see it a bit at the Uni. We had four student deaths last year. I think at least three were suicide, but I don’t know for sure, as they are kept incredibly quiet. The uni would say they are respecting privacy, but I also think there is an element of reputational protection going on.
    I hope the 'NHS values' are not as anodyne, twee, patronising and dishonest as the 'British values' bullshit the DfE makes us teach.

    I always have a wry smile when I come to the one about respecting the rule of law, given how many of them not so much broke as sledgehammered their own lockdown rules.
    It pretty much is. You can look up NHS values, it’s a real thing. We describe the part of the interview as the Shipman test, trying to screen out psychopaths. Of course, in reality, Shipman would have sailed through, as I sure did Letby.
    But I still need to tick a box labelled ‘suitable to work in healthcare’…
    Is that really its purpose?!

    That's like expecting people to answer honestly to an 'Are you a terrorist?' question on a visa application form.
    Same logic as Sunak stopping Bad Things happening by making announcements.

    Sadly common in the modern world.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,611
    kle4 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Carnyx said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kle4 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Anyone else looking forward to the Sam Bankman-Fried fraud trial later this year? It seems astonishing so many people bought into what was, at best, utterly incompetent blustering (that is his own defence after all, that he;'s an idiot not a crook), but the crypto world seems fertile ground for scammers.

    Prosecutors have just written to the judge rebutting some of his attempts to get evidence excluded, some of which are pretty creative if prosecutors are accurate.

    Notably, the defendant now complains about something he previously requested: on April 22, 2023, in a letter demand the defendant asked for a copy of all Slack messages, and his counsel reiterated that request on a telephone call four days later. It cannot be that the defendant can strategically make a record of discovery he claims he is entitled to but is not getting, and then when he gets it, move to preclude its use

    https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.nysd.590939/gov.uscourts.nysd.590939.237.0.pdf

    They're also trying to bar all of the expert witnesses he wants to call in a separate matter. Should be fun, and has been surprisingly fast moving.

    Fun fact - both parents of Bankman-Fraud (sp) are lawyers, and faculty members of Stanford Junior University Law School.
    Given the people running FTX apparently dipped into customer accounts to pay for homes for themselves and relatives, among other things, you'd think they could have at least advised their son that he was at best butting up against the law.

    They must be very proud of him - he claims to have been hopelessly bad at running FTX which is why it collapsed, and hasn't much to his name now as a result, but he could post a bail worth millions somehow, which shows real talent.
    He was living in his parents home in lieu of prison until recently . . . when judge revoked his home detention on grounds that he was, among other things, engaged in witness intimidation, against his old girl friend, who worked for FTX but apparently was NOT included in the prime dining car of the bit-coin mega-grifter super-train.
    Has anyone got a list of the financial crimes that weren’t committed at FTX?
    I suspect his parents were proud of him till he got caught. It is the american attitude among those echelelons...rip people off all good..get caught you are a failure. Our similar class are exactly the same as I suspect are the elite of most countries
    They're probably still proud - he still obviously has some amount of ill gotten gains left, which won't be totally eaten up by the criminal trial, which they can benefit from.

    But then the civil complaints are still to come I believe.

    If I ever have kids they are free to still love me but believe I should go to prison for any crimes I commit.
    I should my kids should. It seems to be an attitude only prevalent among the little people though. I won't speak for everyone but frankly I am getting fed up with people taking the piss and getting off because they know people. Avoiding prison when someone like me would get it for far less and failing yet getting a good pay off and a promotion. Time we turn round and do something about it
    You say you want a revolution?

    Well, you know, we all want to change the world.
    I didn't say I wanted a revolution. You misread me. I don't want a revolution because all it means is we get the same shits doing the same stuff just different faces. What I want is people being held to account so they no longer feel they can get away with it.
    To give you an example...the lucy letby case....I want those managers on trial for complicity not allowed to be promoted elsewhere...or retire on health grounds. I want people like cressida dick to be on trial for her decisions that led to the assassination of an innocent electrician.

    Sometimes people make mistakes and I accept that. If those mistakes however lead to deaths or maimings then they should be held to the same standards as anyone else.
    As long as it’s a fair trial, that’s fine, but you seem to have decided, based solely on media reports, that they are guilty (specifically the Letby case). There has been media reports with only one take on events. It may be that the managers were egregiously bad in what they did. However I suspect that it is a very infrequent occurrence to be managing a serial killer, and normalcy bias tends to make people very cautious about suggesting such a thing.
    It’s possible that the managers were conned by Letby, that she was plausible and convincing. Many psychopaths can be charming. If the managers were fooled, what crime have they committed?

    By all means investigate. If there is a reasonable chance of a conviction (I have no idea for what) then bring a case. If they are found guilty then fine.

    But please do not find guilty on just media alone.
    Jus\t noticed this: HMG had to drop plans to makje the inquiry non-statutory, so now they can compel witneses, with current and former staff especially in mind it seems. But no judge, no remit yet.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/aug/30/lucy-letby-inquiry-will-have-power-to-force-witnesses-to-give-evidence
    My point was really too often people seem to escape justice because they are too high up. I dont want them found summarily guilty. I do want their culpability examined in court and if charges are relevant they should be charged. Instead currently they seem to get a golden payoff and a promotion
    There are different types of culpability and we really have to be clear which we're talking about:

    1. Disciplinary culpability. Based on what I have read - which will not be a complete picture of course - there is probably some basis for saying that people did not behave as professionally as they should and failed to follow best practice etc.,. Some of that may be personal culpability but some will also be institutional failings eg a failure to have a proper investigation process or a whistleblowing process etc.,.

    2. Criminal responsibility. This is very much harder. There are two possible offences: gross negligence manslaughter or corporate manslaughter. Hard to prove.

    Important not to confuse the two. It is certainly vital to establish a sense of responsibility and accountability so that we do not get this endless rota of people being paid big bucks for responsible jobs but then exhibiting a lack of professionalism, taking no responsibility and moving on without suffering any consequences.

    Whether the criminal law or disciplinary measures are the way to do that will depend on the evidence. But what is also needed is for these organisations to establish strong proper processes to deal with these difficult issues. From what I have read - not just on this case - the NHS has repeatedly failed to do so, despite endless reports telling it to do so and despite there being good examples in other sectors of exactly the sort of processes and teams they need. That - to me - pretty culpable failure is not just down to the managers but also the politicians and managers at the very top responsible for the NHS.
    Thanks for this note of sanity.

    One thing the NHS has us do at a recruitment level of undergrad pharmacy students is to attempt to screen for NHS values. It’s nonsense of course, but we have to do it and record it.

    I would argue we should be aiming to instil said values in the training process rather than crudely trying to weed out psychopaths at 17.

    I hope that the managers involved in the Letby case are horrified at what has happened. It seems clear that whistleblowing is hard to do, and resisted by the NHS, and individual trusts. I see it a bit at the Uni. We had four student deaths last year. I think at least three were suicide, but I don’t know for sure, as they are kept incredibly quiet. The uni would say they are respecting privacy, but I also think there is an element of reputational protection going on.
    I hope the 'NHS values' are not as anodyne, twee, patronising and dishonest as the 'British values' bullshit the DfE makes us teach.

    I always have a wry smile when I come to the one about respecting the rule of law, given how many of them not so much broke as sledgehammered their own lockdown rules.
    It pretty much is. You can look up NHS values, it’s a real thing. We describe the part of the interview as the Shipman test, trying to screen out psychopaths. Of course, in reality, Shipman would have sailed through, as I sure did Letby.
    But I still need to tick a box labelled ‘suitable to work in healthcare’…
    Is that really its purpose?!

    That's like expecting people to answer honestly to an 'Are you a terrorist?' question on a visa application form.
    The purpose of such questions is to get a lie on an official document, so they can hold you for that while they work out the real charges.

    Hence the old “Are you now, or have you ever been a member of the German National Socialist Workers Party?”, on the American entry card they would give you to fill out on the plane.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,918

    Another fun fact re: Pam - Lord Palmerston first entered the House of Commons as MP for Newport.

    Which he won in 1807 general election, after paying £4,000 AND promising to never set foot in the constituency.

    Would be more honest than all those carpetbaggers* droning on about how much they love their constituency.

    *I actually don't have a problem with carpetbagging.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,269
    ydoethur said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Carnyx said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kle4 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Anyone else looking forward to the Sam Bankman-Fried fraud trial later this year? It seems astonishing so many people bought into what was, at best, utterly incompetent blustering (that is his own defence after all, that he;'s an idiot not a crook), but the crypto world seems fertile ground for scammers.

    Prosecutors have just written to the judge rebutting some of his attempts to get evidence excluded, some of which are pretty creative if prosecutors are accurate.

    Notably, the defendant now complains about something he previously requested: on April 22, 2023, in a letter demand the defendant asked for a copy of all Slack messages, and his counsel reiterated that request on a telephone call four days later. It cannot be that the defendant can strategically make a record of discovery he claims he is entitled to but is not getting, and then when he gets it, move to preclude its use

    https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.nysd.590939/gov.uscourts.nysd.590939.237.0.pdf

    They're also trying to bar all of the expert witnesses he wants to call in a separate matter. Should be fun, and has been surprisingly fast moving.

    Fun fact - both parents of Bankman-Fraud (sp) are lawyers, and faculty members of Stanford Junior University Law School.
    Given the people running FTX apparently dipped into customer accounts to pay for homes for themselves and relatives, among other things, you'd think they could have at least advised their son that he was at best butting up against the law.

    They must be very proud of him - he claims to have been hopelessly bad at running FTX which is why it collapsed, and hasn't much to his name now as a result, but he could post a bail worth millions somehow, which shows real talent.
    He was living in his parents home in lieu of prison until recently . . . when judge revoked his home detention on grounds that he was, among other things, engaged in witness intimidation, against his old girl friend, who worked for FTX but apparently was NOT included in the prime dining car of the bit-coin mega-grifter super-train.
    Has anyone got a list of the financial crimes that weren’t committed at FTX?
    I suspect his parents were proud of him till he got caught. It is the american attitude among those echelelons...rip people off all good..get caught you are a failure. Our similar class are exactly the same as I suspect are the elite of most countries
    They're probably still proud - he still obviously has some amount of ill gotten gains left, which won't be totally eaten up by the criminal trial, which they can benefit from.

    But then the civil complaints are still to come I believe.

    If I ever have kids they are free to still love me but believe I should go to prison for any crimes I commit.
    I should my kids should. It seems to be an attitude only prevalent among the little people though. I won't speak for everyone but frankly I am getting fed up with people taking the piss and getting off because they know people. Avoiding prison when someone like me would get it for far less and failing yet getting a good pay off and a promotion. Time we turn round and do something about it
    You say you want a revolution?

    Well, you know, we all want to change the world.
    I didn't say I wanted a revolution. You misread me. I don't want a revolution because all it means is we get the same shits doing the same stuff just different faces. What I want is people being held to account so they no longer feel they can get away with it.
    To give you an example...the lucy letby case....I want those managers on trial for complicity not allowed to be promoted elsewhere...or retire on health grounds. I want people like cressida dick to be on trial for her decisions that led to the assassination of an innocent electrician.

    Sometimes people make mistakes and I accept that. If those mistakes however lead to deaths or maimings then they should be held to the same standards as anyone else.
    As long as it’s a fair trial, that’s fine, but you seem to have decided, based solely on media reports, that they are guilty (specifically the Letby case). There has been media reports with only one take on events. It may be that the managers were egregiously bad in what they did. However I suspect that it is a very infrequent occurrence to be managing a serial killer, and normalcy bias tends to make people very cautious about suggesting such a thing.
    It’s possible that the managers were conned by Letby, that she was plausible and convincing. Many psychopaths can be charming. If the managers were fooled, what crime have they committed?

    By all means investigate. If there is a reasonable chance of a conviction (I have no idea for what) then bring a case. If they are found guilty then fine.

    But please do not find guilty on just media alone.
    Jus\t noticed this: HMG had to drop plans to makje the inquiry non-statutory, so now they can compel witneses, with current and former staff especially in mind it seems. But no judge, no remit yet.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/aug/30/lucy-letby-inquiry-will-have-power-to-force-witnesses-to-give-evidence
    My point was really too often people seem to escape justice because they are too high up. I dont want them found summarily guilty. I do want their culpability examined in court and if charges are relevant they should be charged. Instead currently they seem to get a golden payoff and a promotion
    There are different types of culpability and we really have to be clear which we're talking about:

    1. Disciplinary culpability. Based on what I have read - which will not be a complete picture of course - there is probably some basis for saying that people did not behave as professionally as they should and failed to follow best practice etc.,. Some of that may be personal culpability but some will also be institutional failings eg a failure to have a proper investigation process or a whistleblowing process etc.,.

    2. Criminal responsibility. This is very much harder. There are two possible offences: gross negligence manslaughter or corporate manslaughter. Hard to prove.

    Important not to confuse the two. It is certainly vital to establish a sense of responsibility and accountability so that we do not get this endless rota of people being paid big bucks for responsible jobs but then exhibiting a lack of professionalism, taking no responsibility and moving on without suffering any consequences.

    Whether the criminal law or disciplinary measures are the way to do that will depend on the evidence. But what is also needed is for these organisations to establish strong proper processes to deal with these difficult issues. From what I have read - not just on this case - the NHS has repeatedly failed to do so, despite endless reports telling it to do so and despite there being good examples in other sectors of exactly the sort of processes and teams they need. That - to me - pretty culpable failure is not just down to the managers but also the politicians and managers at the very top responsible for the NHS.
    Thanks for this note of sanity.

    One thing the NHS has us do at a recruitment level of undergrad pharmacy students is to attempt to screen for NHS values. It’s nonsense of course, but we have to do it and record it.

    I would argue we should be aiming to instil said values in the training process rather than crudely trying to weed out psychopaths at 17.

    I hope that the managers involved in the Letby case are horrified at what has happened. It seems clear that whistleblowing is hard to do, and resisted by the NHS, and individual trusts. I see it a bit at the Uni. We had four student deaths last year. I think at least three were suicide, but I don’t know for sure, as they are kept incredibly quiet. The uni would say they are respecting privacy, but I also think there is an element of reputational protection going on.
    I hope the 'NHS values' are not as anodyne, twee, patronising and dishonest as the 'British values' bullshit the DfE makes us teach.

    I always have a wry smile when I come to the one about respecting the rule of law, given how many of them not so much broke as sledgehammered their own lockdown rules.
    I have been saying this at work for decades. When you hire people, character - moral character, what people do when no-one's looking, their default instincts when there is no process or rule, their judgment, moral compass, call it what you will - matters more than anything else.

    Too many organisations failed to realise this - and we see the results all around us.

    And once you have hired what you hope are the right people, everything you do - training, pay, promotion, discipline etc - must reinforce the qualities you want to instil and need: courage, curiosity, challenge, judgment and the humility needed to realise that you are always learning, will make mistakes but that how you deal with them is the mark of the sort of man or woman you are.

    Not "values" but the tough qualities which make up real character and judgment. You build the structures and processes to ensure that it is easy to do the right thing and hard to do the wrong thing. But none of this will work if you've got the wrong people in place. We have IMO paid too little attention to this and it's going to be hard work to put it right.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,918

    kle4 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Carnyx said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kle4 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Anyone else looking forward to the Sam Bankman-Fried fraud trial later this year? It seems astonishing so many people bought into what was, at best, utterly incompetent blustering (that is his own defence after all, that he;'s an idiot not a crook), but the crypto world seems fertile ground for scammers.

    Prosecutors have just written to the judge rebutting some of his attempts to get evidence excluded, some of which are pretty creative if prosecutors are accurate.

    Notably, the defendant now complains about something he previously requested: on April 22, 2023, in a letter demand the defendant asked for a copy of all Slack messages, and his counsel reiterated that request on a telephone call four days later. It cannot be that the defendant can strategically make a record of discovery he claims he is entitled to but is not getting, and then when he gets it, move to preclude its use

    https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.nysd.590939/gov.uscourts.nysd.590939.237.0.pdf

    They're also trying to bar all of the expert witnesses he wants to call in a separate matter. Should be fun, and has been surprisingly fast moving.

    Fun fact - both parents of Bankman-Fraud (sp) are lawyers, and faculty members of Stanford Junior University Law School.
    Given the people running FTX apparently dipped into customer accounts to pay for homes for themselves and relatives, among other things, you'd think they could have at least advised their son that he was at best butting up against the law.

    They must be very proud of him - he claims to have been hopelessly bad at running FTX which is why it collapsed, and hasn't much to his name now as a result, but he could post a bail worth millions somehow, which shows real talent.
    He was living in his parents home in lieu of prison until recently . . . when judge revoked his home detention on grounds that he was, among other things, engaged in witness intimidation, against his old girl friend, who worked for FTX but apparently was NOT included in the prime dining car of the bit-coin mega-grifter super-train.
    Has anyone got a list of the financial crimes that weren’t committed at FTX?
    I suspect his parents were proud of him till he got caught. It is the american attitude among those echelelons...rip people off all good..get caught you are a failure. Our similar class are exactly the same as I suspect are the elite of most countries
    They're probably still proud - he still obviously has some amount of ill gotten gains left, which won't be totally eaten up by the criminal trial, which they can benefit from.

    But then the civil complaints are still to come I believe.

    If I ever have kids they are free to still love me but believe I should go to prison for any crimes I commit.
    I should my kids should. It seems to be an attitude only prevalent among the little people though. I won't speak for everyone but frankly I am getting fed up with people taking the piss and getting off because they know people. Avoiding prison when someone like me would get it for far less and failing yet getting a good pay off and a promotion. Time we turn round and do something about it
    You say you want a revolution?

    Well, you know, we all want to change the world.
    I didn't say I wanted a revolution. You misread me. I don't want a revolution because all it means is we get the same shits doing the same stuff just different faces. What I want is people being held to account so they no longer feel they can get away with it.
    To give you an example...the lucy letby case....I want those managers on trial for complicity not allowed to be promoted elsewhere...or retire on health grounds. I want people like cressida dick to be on trial for her decisions that led to the assassination of an innocent electrician.

    Sometimes people make mistakes and I accept that. If those mistakes however lead to deaths or maimings then they should be held to the same standards as anyone else.
    As long as it’s a fair trial, that’s fine, but you seem to have decided, based solely on media reports, that they are guilty (specifically the Letby case). There has been media reports with only one take on events. It may be that the managers were egregiously bad in what they did. However I suspect that it is a very infrequent occurrence to be managing a serial killer, and normalcy bias tends to make people very cautious about suggesting such a thing.
    It’s possible that the managers were conned by Letby, that she was plausible and convincing. Many psychopaths can be charming. If the managers were fooled, what crime have they committed?

    By all means investigate. If there is a reasonable chance of a conviction (I have no idea for what) then bring a case. If they are found guilty then fine.

    But please do not find guilty on just media alone.
    Jus\t noticed this: HMG had to drop plans to makje the inquiry non-statutory, so now they can compel witneses, with current and former staff especially in mind it seems. But no judge, no remit yet.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/aug/30/lucy-letby-inquiry-will-have-power-to-force-witnesses-to-give-evidence
    My point was really too often people seem to escape justice because they are too high up. I dont want them found summarily guilty. I do want their culpability examined in court and if charges are relevant they should be charged. Instead currently they seem to get a golden payoff and a promotion
    There are different types of culpability and we really have to be clear which we're talking about:

    1. Disciplinary culpability. Based on what I have read - which will not be a complete picture of course - there is probably some basis for saying that people did not behave as professionally as they should and failed to follow best practice etc.,. Some of that may be personal culpability but some will also be institutional failings eg a failure to have a proper investigation process or a whistleblowing process etc.,.

    2. Criminal responsibility. This is very much harder. There are two possible offences: gross negligence manslaughter or corporate manslaughter. Hard to prove.

    Important not to confuse the two. It is certainly vital to establish a sense of responsibility and accountability so that we do not get this endless rota of people being paid big bucks for responsible jobs but then exhibiting a lack of professionalism, taking no responsibility and moving on without suffering any consequences.

    Whether the criminal law or disciplinary measures are the way to do that will depend on the evidence. But what is also needed is for these organisations to establish strong proper processes to deal with these difficult issues. From what I have read - not just on this case - the NHS has repeatedly failed to do so, despite endless reports telling it to do so and despite there being good examples in other sectors of exactly the sort of processes and teams they need. That - to me - pretty culpable failure is not just down to the managers but also the politicians and managers at the very top responsible for the NHS.
    Thanks for this note of sanity.

    One thing the NHS has us do at a recruitment level of undergrad pharmacy students is to attempt to screen for NHS values. It’s nonsense of course, but we have to do it and record it.

    I would argue we should be aiming to instil said values in the training process rather than crudely trying to weed out psychopaths at 17.

    I hope that the managers involved in the Letby case are horrified at what has happened. It seems clear that whistleblowing is hard to do, and resisted by the NHS, and individual trusts. I see it a bit at the Uni. We had four student deaths last year. I think at least three were suicide, but I don’t know for sure, as they are kept incredibly quiet. The uni would say they are respecting privacy, but I also think there is an element of reputational protection going on.
    I hope the 'NHS values' are not as anodyne, twee, patronising and dishonest as the 'British values' bullshit the DfE makes us teach.

    I always have a wry smile when I come to the one about respecting the rule of law, given how many of them not so much broke as sledgehammered their own lockdown rules.
    It pretty much is. You can look up NHS values, it’s a real thing. We describe the part of the interview as the Shipman test, trying to screen out psychopaths. Of course, in reality, Shipman would have sailed through, as I sure did Letby.
    But I still need to tick a box labelled ‘suitable to work in healthcare’…
    Is that really its purpose?!

    That's like expecting people to answer honestly to an 'Are you a terrorist?' question on a visa application form.
    The purpose of such questions is to get a lie on an official document, so they can hold you for that while they work out the real charges.

    Hence the old “Are you now, or have you ever been a member of the German National Socialist Workers Party?”, on the American entry card they would give you to fill out on the plane.
    Yes I know that is the apparent reason - but that was my point, they don't expect an honest answer to that question if someone is indeed guilty of it, they ask it for another purpose. But if there is a 'psychopath screening test' (by some other name) it's supposed to work on the terms it sets out, and identify people in advance, not punish them for a lie, and psycopaths would surely easily pass a values test.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,897
    Cyclefree said:

    I have been saying this at work for decades. When you hire people, character - moral character, what people do when no-one's looking, their default instincts when there is no process or rule, their judgment, moral compass, call it what you will - matters more than anything else.

    *cough*BoZo*cough*
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 4,879
    Pagan2 said:

    Carnyx said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kle4 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Anyone else looking forward to the Sam Bankman-Fried fraud trial later this year? It seems astonishing so many people bought into what was, at best, utterly incompetent blustering (that is his own defence after all, that he;'s an idiot not a crook), but the crypto world seems fertile ground for scammers.

    Prosecutors have just written to the judge rebutting some of his attempts to get evidence excluded, some of which are pretty creative if prosecutors are accurate.

    Notably, the defendant now complains about something he previously requested: on April 22, 2023, in a letter demand the defendant asked for a copy of all Slack messages, and his counsel reiterated that request on a telephone call four days later. It cannot be that the defendant can strategically make a record of discovery he claims he is entitled to but is not getting, and then when he gets it, move to preclude its use

    https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.nysd.590939/gov.uscourts.nysd.590939.237.0.pdf

    They're also trying to bar all of the expert witnesses he wants to call in a separate matter. Should be fun, and has been surprisingly fast moving.

    Fun fact - both parents of Bankman-Fraud (sp) are lawyers, and faculty members of Stanford Junior University Law School.
    Given the people running FTX apparently dipped into customer accounts to pay for homes for themselves and relatives, among other things, you'd think they could have at least advised their son that he was at best butting up against the law.

    They must be very proud of him - he claims to have been hopelessly bad at running FTX which is why it collapsed, and hasn't much to his name now as a result, but he could post a bail worth millions somehow, which shows real talent.
    He was living in his parents home in lieu of prison until recently . . . when judge revoked his home detention on grounds that he was, among other things, engaged in witness intimidation, against his old girl friend, who worked for FTX but apparently was NOT included in the prime dining car of the bit-coin mega-grifter super-train.
    Has anyone got a list of the financial crimes that weren’t committed at FTX?
    I suspect his parents were proud of him till he got caught. It is the american attitude among those echelelons...rip people off all good..get caught you are a failure. Our similar class are exactly the same as I suspect are the elite of most countries
    They're probably still proud - he still obviously has some amount of ill gotten gains left, which won't be totally eaten up by the criminal trial, which they can benefit from.

    But then the civil complaints are still to come I believe.

    If I ever have kids they are free to still love me but believe I should go to prison for any crimes I commit.
    I should my kids should. It seems to be an attitude only prevalent among the little people though. I won't speak for everyone but frankly I am getting fed up with people taking the piss and getting off because they know people. Avoiding prison when someone like me would get it for far less and failing yet getting a good pay off and a promotion. Time we turn round and do something about it
    You say you want a revolution?

    Well, you know, we all want to change the world.
    I didn't say I wanted a revolution. You misread me. I don't want a revolution because all it means is we get the same shits doing the same stuff just different faces. What I want is people being held to account so they no longer feel they can get away with it.
    To give you an example...the lucy letby case....I want those managers on trial for complicity not allowed to be promoted elsewhere...or retire on health grounds. I want people like cressida dick to be on trial for her decisions that led to the assassination of an innocent electrician.

    Sometimes people make mistakes and I accept that. If those mistakes however lead to deaths or maimings then they should be held to the same standards as anyone else.
    As long as it’s a fair trial, that’s fine, but you seem to have decided, based solely on media reports, that they are guilty (specifically the Letby case). There has been media reports with only one take on events. It may be that the managers were egregiously bad in what they did. However I suspect that it is a very infrequent occurrence to be managing a serial killer, and normalcy bias tends to make people very cautious about suggesting such a thing.
    It’s possible that the managers were conned by Letby, that she was plausible and convincing. Many psychopaths can be charming. If the managers were fooled, what crime have they committed?

    By all means investigate. If there is a reasonable chance of a conviction (I have no idea for what) then bring a case. If they are found guilty then fine.

    But please do not find guilty on just media alone.
    Jus\t noticed this: HMG had to drop plans to makje the inquiry non-statutory, so now they can compel witneses, with current and former staff especially in mind it seems. But no judge, no remit yet.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/aug/30/lucy-letby-inquiry-will-have-power-to-force-witnesses-to-give-evidence
    My point was really too often people seem to escape justice because they are too high up. I dont want them found summarily guilty. I do want their culpability examined in court and if charges are relevant they should be charged. Instead currently they seem to get a golden payoff and a promotion
    Life is like a shit sandwich. The more bread you get, the less shit you get.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,611

    Leon said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    Tho this might be Peak Puritanical Guardian Travel



    Walking the length of the Wharfe sounds pleasant enough. Some nice scenery and a few very pleasant towns. And I like Bolton Abbey very much. Happy memories of hearing a child fall into the Wharfe while crossing the surprisingly treacherous stepping stones. Happy because improbably it wasn't my child, and I hadn't brought a change of clothes in case of that eventuality.
    Though more pleasant still to cycle it. The Dales are agreeably conducive to cycling, until you reach the end of the dale you're in and have to haul your fat arse over into the next dale.
    Though I'd quibble that the Wharfe is Yorkshire's most famous river. Strikes me as no more famous than the Ouse, Don, Nidd, Aire, Calder, Swale, Derwent, Tees or Hull.

    I rather like British travel writing, as my MSN feed at work has clearly twigged. I like to read about places I might reasonably go - or, even better, about places I have been, and I can enjoy feeling cheerfully exasperated with the writer who has clearly Got It Wrong.
    I like domestic British travel. We still live in a beautiful, historic country, for all our problems

    Indeed I am about to set off on a mini UK road trip (expect pics of drinks in woods)

    I am just empathising with the poor Guardian travel writers, forbidden to go anywhere exotic. My guess is the more talented ones will simply leave

    ydoethur said:

    Flanner said:

    dixiedean said:

    ydoethur said:

    Carnyx said:

    ydoethur said:

    kle4 said:

    ydoethur said:

    FPT

    We have reached a whole new world of plonkerdom on PB when Professor Richard Dawkins is defined as a Christian.

    Yet that is exactly where we are.

    Only on PB.

    Not quite. It's on a minor, unimportant news site as well:

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7136682.stm
    The 'Christian country' 'cultural Christian' topic is just tedious because people talk past one another even more than usual politics. It depends what one means - I'd have little trouble as an atheist referring to the country that way, depending what someone was trying to assert.

    Pretending that common arguments are 'only on PB' as if unique doesn't help either.
    It’s rot though. How can this be a Christian country when the majority of its population disbelieve in the Christian God?

    Clue: it isn’t. Hence why even PRIESTS now say it isn’t!
    You are saying it is impossible to be agnostic about existence of a God, and a Cultural Christian at the same time? Really?

    I think what Dawkins explained in the link Dr Y gave us seemed very plausible. A religion like Christianity isn’t just a philosophical concept, it’s cultural/tribal too.

    I’m sure I have read on PB very good stuff about Cultural Folkways in Britain, their relation to the English Civil war, how these same cultural behaviours travelled to the United States and played role in their Civil War too.
    Christianity without Christ is sophistical crap.
    But being without that philosophical element only allows examples, like Anabob, a perfect example, to, yes, get away with saying they are not strictly a Christian, but by being so culturally Christian they cannot get away with saying they “are in no way Christian, not even a teeny weeny bit.”

    They do need concede this fact.
    If they introduced payment by tapping instead of the collection bowl he'd be there like a shot.
    Well, good news! Cannock Church has.

    They bought one in the pandemic and can't be bothered to get rid of it.
    I've always thought that the weekly collection was hopelessly tax-inefficient, at least where it is for purposes that are legitimate for charity purposes. But maybe they now get the congregation to do Gift Aid now that it is electronic?
    Most members of the congregation give by standing order.

    But if you give weekly, you can fill out an envelope with a gift aid declaration on it. So it isn't tax inefficient from that point of view.
    Does the RC Church do the same?
    But with standing, kneeling, sitting, kneeling, sitting, Standing Orders?
    70% of donations to GWD Donation Stations in the UK are Gift Aided. (https://gwd.team/) The only reason my Catholic church doesn't use the technology is that it's located inconveniently for online transaction approval.

    Bizarrely: at the Coronation celebration at our local Anglican cathedral, almost no-one could contribute to the door collection because we - most of us routinely church-going - didn't have cash with us, assuming we'd be able to contribute by card.
    I am surprised to find an Anglican cathedral that doesn't take cards. Most of them do in their shops and cafes.

    Depends a bit of course on which cathedral it was. If it was a non-touristy one like Derby or Blackburn it would make more sense than if it were, say, York Minster.
    Flanner is right - this particular cathedral doesn't take cards. Nor does it have a shop or a cafe. Yet despite that it's very touristy. I've probably narrowed it down enough by now ;)

    Mrs Capitano knows the Dean, and we both know the Diocesan Canon well, so we might suggest it...
    Given the difficulty in finding a local bank with a night safe for the collection, all churches should encourage card payment and direct debits.
    Or they could find… other guardians for the money

    A rather good story in the spirit of MR James - http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~pardos/ArchiveWatchman.html
  • kle4 said:

    Another fun fact re: Pam - Lord Palmerston first entered the House of Commons as MP for Newport.

    Which he won in 1807 general election, after paying £4,000 AND promising to never set foot in the constituency.

    Would be more honest than all those carpetbaggers* droning on about how much they love their constituency.

    *I actually don't have a problem with carpetbagging.
    At the time of his election as MP for Newport, Pam was 22 years old . . . and had been serving as a a Lord of the Admiralty for a month.

    He'd also lost twice in attempts to be elected as MP for Cambridge University.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,611
    Cyclefree said:

    ydoethur said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Carnyx said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kle4 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Anyone else looking forward to the Sam Bankman-Fried fraud trial later this year? It seems astonishing so many people bought into what was, at best, utterly incompetent blustering (that is his own defence after all, that he;'s an idiot not a crook), but the crypto world seems fertile ground for scammers.

    Prosecutors have just written to the judge rebutting some of his attempts to get evidence excluded, some of which are pretty creative if prosecutors are accurate.

    Notably, the defendant now complains about something he previously requested: on April 22, 2023, in a letter demand the defendant asked for a copy of all Slack messages, and his counsel reiterated that request on a telephone call four days later. It cannot be that the defendant can strategically make a record of discovery he claims he is entitled to but is not getting, and then when he gets it, move to preclude its use

    https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.nysd.590939/gov.uscourts.nysd.590939.237.0.pdf

    They're also trying to bar all of the expert witnesses he wants to call in a separate matter. Should be fun, and has been surprisingly fast moving.

    Fun fact - both parents of Bankman-Fraud (sp) are lawyers, and faculty members of Stanford Junior University Law School.
    Given the people running FTX apparently dipped into customer accounts to pay for homes for themselves and relatives, among other things, you'd think they could have at least advised their son that he was at best butting up against the law.

    They must be very proud of him - he claims to have been hopelessly bad at running FTX which is why it collapsed, and hasn't much to his name now as a result, but he could post a bail worth millions somehow, which shows real talent.
    He was living in his parents home in lieu of prison until recently . . . when judge revoked his home detention on grounds that he was, among other things, engaged in witness intimidation, against his old girl friend, who worked for FTX but apparently was NOT included in the prime dining car of the bit-coin mega-grifter super-train.
    Has anyone got a list of the financial crimes that weren’t committed at FTX?
    I suspect his parents were proud of him till he got caught. It is the american attitude among those echelelons...rip people off all good..get caught you are a failure. Our similar class are exactly the same as I suspect are the elite of most countries
    They're probably still proud - he still obviously has some amount of ill gotten gains left, which won't be totally eaten up by the criminal trial, which they can benefit from.

    But then the civil complaints are still to come I believe.

    If I ever have kids they are free to still love me but believe I should go to prison for any crimes I commit.
    I should my kids should. It seems to be an attitude only prevalent among the little people though. I won't speak for everyone but frankly I am getting fed up with people taking the piss and getting off because they know people. Avoiding prison when someone like me would get it for far less and failing yet getting a good pay off and a promotion. Time we turn round and do something about it
    You say you want a revolution?

    Well, you know, we all want to change the world.
    I didn't say I wanted a revolution. You misread me. I don't want a revolution because all it means is we get the same shits doing the same stuff just different faces. What I want is people being held to account so they no longer feel they can get away with it.
    To give you an example...the lucy letby case....I want those managers on trial for complicity not allowed to be promoted elsewhere...or retire on health grounds. I want people like cressida dick to be on trial for her decisions that led to the assassination of an innocent electrician.

    Sometimes people make mistakes and I accept that. If those mistakes however lead to deaths or maimings then they should be held to the same standards as anyone else.
    As long as it’s a fair trial, that’s fine, but you seem to have decided, based solely on media reports, that they are guilty (specifically the Letby case). There has been media reports with only one take on events. It may be that the managers were egregiously bad in what they did. However I suspect that it is a very infrequent occurrence to be managing a serial killer, and normalcy bias tends to make people very cautious about suggesting such a thing.
    It’s possible that the managers were conned by Letby, that she was plausible and convincing. Many psychopaths can be charming. If the managers were fooled, what crime have they committed?

    By all means investigate. If there is a reasonable chance of a conviction (I have no idea for what) then bring a case. If they are found guilty then fine.

    But please do not find guilty on just media alone.
    Jus\t noticed this: HMG had to drop plans to makje the inquiry non-statutory, so now they can compel witneses, with current and former staff especially in mind it seems. But no judge, no remit yet.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/aug/30/lucy-letby-inquiry-will-have-power-to-force-witnesses-to-give-evidence
    My point was really too often people seem to escape justice because they are too high up. I dont want them found summarily guilty. I do want their culpability examined in court and if charges are relevant they should be charged. Instead currently they seem to get a golden payoff and a promotion
    There are different types of culpability and we really have to be clear which we're talking about:

    1. Disciplinary culpability. Based on what I have read - which will not be a complete picture of course - there is probably some basis for saying that people did not behave as professionally as they should and failed to follow best practice etc.,. Some of that may be personal culpability but some will also be institutional failings eg a failure to have a proper investigation process or a whistleblowing process etc.,.

    2. Criminal responsibility. This is very much harder. There are two possible offences: gross negligence manslaughter or corporate manslaughter. Hard to prove.

    Important not to confuse the two. It is certainly vital to establish a sense of responsibility and accountability so that we do not get this endless rota of people being paid big bucks for responsible jobs but then exhibiting a lack of professionalism, taking no responsibility and moving on without suffering any consequences.

    Whether the criminal law or disciplinary measures are the way to do that will depend on the evidence. But what is also needed is for these organisations to establish strong proper processes to deal with these difficult issues. From what I have read - not just on this case - the NHS has repeatedly failed to do so, despite endless reports telling it to do so and despite there being good examples in other sectors of exactly the sort of processes and teams they need. That - to me - pretty culpable failure is not just down to the managers but also the politicians and managers at the very top responsible for the NHS.
    Thanks for this note of sanity.

    One thing the NHS has us do at a recruitment level of undergrad pharmacy students is to attempt to screen for NHS values. It’s nonsense of course, but we have to do it and record it.

    I would argue we should be aiming to instil said values in the training process rather than crudely trying to weed out psychopaths at 17.

    I hope that the managers involved in the Letby case are horrified at what has happened. It seems clear that whistleblowing is hard to do, and resisted by the NHS, and individual trusts. I see it a bit at the Uni. We had four student deaths last year. I think at least three were suicide, but I don’t know for sure, as they are kept incredibly quiet. The uni would say they are respecting privacy, but I also think there is an element of reputational protection going on.
    I hope the 'NHS values' are not as anodyne, twee, patronising and dishonest as the 'British values' bullshit the DfE makes us teach.

    I always have a wry smile when I come to the one about respecting the rule of law, given how many of them not so much broke as sledgehammered their own lockdown rules.
    I have been saying this at work for decades. When you hire people, character - moral character, what people do when no-one's looking, their default instincts when there is no process or rule, their judgment, moral compass, call it what you will - matters more than anything else.

    Too many organisations failed to realise this - and we see the results all around us.

    And once you have hired what you hope are the right people, everything you do - training, pay, promotion, discipline etc - must reinforce the qualities you want to instil and need: courage, curiosity, challenge, judgment and the humility needed to realise that you are always learning, will make mistakes but that how you deal with them is the mark of the sort of man or woman you are.

    Not "values" but the tough qualities which make up real character and judgment. You build the structures and processes to ensure that it is easy to do the right thing and hard to do the wrong thing. But none of this will work if you've got the wrong people in place. We have IMO paid too little attention to this and it's going to be hard work to put it right.
    “History is made at night. Character is what you are in the dark.” - Lord John Whorfin
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,611
    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Carnyx said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kle4 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Anyone else looking forward to the Sam Bankman-Fried fraud trial later this year? It seems astonishing so many people bought into what was, at best, utterly incompetent blustering (that is his own defence after all, that he;'s an idiot not a crook), but the crypto world seems fertile ground for scammers.

    Prosecutors have just written to the judge rebutting some of his attempts to get evidence excluded, some of which are pretty creative if prosecutors are accurate.

    Notably, the defendant now complains about something he previously requested: on April 22, 2023, in a letter demand the defendant asked for a copy of all Slack messages, and his counsel reiterated that request on a telephone call four days later. It cannot be that the defendant can strategically make a record of discovery he claims he is entitled to but is not getting, and then when he gets it, move to preclude its use

    https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.nysd.590939/gov.uscourts.nysd.590939.237.0.pdf

    They're also trying to bar all of the expert witnesses he wants to call in a separate matter. Should be fun, and has been surprisingly fast moving.

    Fun fact - both parents of Bankman-Fraud (sp) are lawyers, and faculty members of Stanford Junior University Law School.
    Given the people running FTX apparently dipped into customer accounts to pay for homes for themselves and relatives, among other things, you'd think they could have at least advised their son that he was at best butting up against the law.

    They must be very proud of him - he claims to have been hopelessly bad at running FTX which is why it collapsed, and hasn't much to his name now as a result, but he could post a bail worth millions somehow, which shows real talent.
    He was living in his parents home in lieu of prison until recently . . . when judge revoked his home detention on grounds that he was, among other things, engaged in witness intimidation, against his old girl friend, who worked for FTX but apparently was NOT included in the prime dining car of the bit-coin mega-grifter super-train.
    Has anyone got a list of the financial crimes that weren’t committed at FTX?
    I suspect his parents were proud of him till he got caught. It is the american attitude among those echelelons...rip people off all good..get caught you are a failure. Our similar class are exactly the same as I suspect are the elite of most countries
    They're probably still proud - he still obviously has some amount of ill gotten gains left, which won't be totally eaten up by the criminal trial, which they can benefit from.

    But then the civil complaints are still to come I believe.

    If I ever have kids they are free to still love me but believe I should go to prison for any crimes I commit.
    I should my kids should. It seems to be an attitude only prevalent among the little people though. I won't speak for everyone but frankly I am getting fed up with people taking the piss and getting off because they know people. Avoiding prison when someone like me would get it for far less and failing yet getting a good pay off and a promotion. Time we turn round and do something about it
    You say you want a revolution?

    Well, you know, we all want to change the world.
    I didn't say I wanted a revolution. You misread me. I don't want a revolution because all it means is we get the same shits doing the same stuff just different faces. What I want is people being held to account so they no longer feel they can get away with it.
    To give you an example...the lucy letby case....I want those managers on trial for complicity not allowed to be promoted elsewhere...or retire on health grounds. I want people like cressida dick to be on trial for her decisions that led to the assassination of an innocent electrician.

    Sometimes people make mistakes and I accept that. If those mistakes however lead to deaths or maimings then they should be held to the same standards as anyone else.
    As long as it’s a fair trial, that’s fine, but you seem to have decided, based solely on media reports, that they are guilty (specifically the Letby case). There has been media reports with only one take on events. It may be that the managers were egregiously bad in what they did. However I suspect that it is a very infrequent occurrence to be managing a serial killer, and normalcy bias tends to make people very cautious about suggesting such a thing.
    It’s possible that the managers were conned by Letby, that she was plausible and convincing. Many psychopaths can be charming. If the managers were fooled, what crime have they committed?

    By all means investigate. If there is a reasonable chance of a conviction (I have no idea for what) then bring a case. If they are found guilty then fine.

    But please do not find guilty on just media alone.
    Jus\t noticed this: HMG had to drop plans to makje the inquiry non-statutory, so now they can compel witneses, with current and former staff especially in mind it seems. But no judge, no remit yet.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/aug/30/lucy-letby-inquiry-will-have-power-to-force-witnesses-to-give-evidence
    My point was really too often people seem to escape justice because they are too high up. I dont want them found summarily guilty. I do want their culpability examined in court and if charges are relevant they should be charged. Instead currently they seem to get a golden payoff and a promotion
    There are different types of culpability and we really have to be clear which we're talking about:

    1. Disciplinary culpability. Based on what I have read - which will not be a complete picture of course - there is probably some basis for saying that people did not behave as professionally as they should and failed to follow best practice etc.,. Some of that may be personal culpability but some will also be institutional failings eg a failure to have a proper investigation process or a whistleblowing process etc.,.

    2. Criminal responsibility. This is very much harder. There are two possible offences: gross negligence manslaughter or corporate manslaughter. Hard to prove.

    Important not to confuse the two. It is certainly vital to establish a sense of responsibility and accountability so that we do not get this endless rota of people being paid big bucks for responsible jobs but then exhibiting a lack of professionalism, taking no responsibility and moving on without suffering any consequences.

    Whether the criminal law or disciplinary measures are the way to do that will depend on the evidence. But what is also needed is for these organisations to establish strong proper processes to deal with these difficult issues. From what I have read - not just on this case - the NHS has repeatedly failed to do so, despite endless reports telling it to do so and despite there being good examples in other sectors of exactly the sort of processes and teams they need. That - to me - pretty culpable failure is not just down to the managers but also the politicians and managers at the very top responsible for the NHS.
    Thanks for this note of sanity.

    One thing the NHS has us do at a recruitment level of undergrad pharmacy students is to attempt to screen for NHS values. It’s nonsense of course, but we have to do it and record it.

    I would argue we should be aiming to instil said values in the training process rather than crudely trying to weed out psychopaths at 17.

    I hope that the managers involved in the Letby case are horrified at what has happened. It seems clear that whistleblowing is hard to do, and resisted by the NHS, and individual trusts. I see it a bit at the Uni. We had four student deaths last year. I think at least three were suicide, but I don’t know for sure, as they are kept incredibly quiet. The uni would say they are respecting privacy, but I also think there is an element of reputational protection going on.
    I hope the 'NHS values' are not as anodyne, twee, patronising and dishonest as the 'British values' bullshit the DfE makes us teach.

    I always have a wry smile when I come to the one about respecting the rule of law, given how many of them not so much broke as sledgehammered their own lockdown rules.
    It pretty much is. You can look up NHS values, it’s a real thing. We describe the part of the interview as the Shipman test, trying to screen out psychopaths. Of course, in reality, Shipman would have sailed through, as I sure did Letby.
    But I still need to tick a box labelled ‘suitable to work in healthcare’…
    Is that really its purpose?!

    That's like expecting people to answer honestly to an 'Are you a terrorist?' question on a visa application form.
    The purpose of such questions is to get a lie on an official document, so they can hold you for that while they work out the real charges.

    Hence the old “Are you now, or have you ever been a member of the German National Socialist Workers Party?”, on the American entry card they would give you to fill out on the plane.
    Yes I know that is the apparent reason - but that was my point, they don't expect an honest answer to that question if someone is indeed guilty of it, they ask it for another purpose. But if there is a 'psychopath screening test' (by some other name) it's supposed to work on the terms it sets out, and identify people in advance, not punish them for a lie, and psycopaths would surely easily pass a values test.
    Perhaps the purpose of the psychopath test is to find people that NHS Managers can relate to?
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 4,879
    Leon said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    Tho this might be Peak Puritanical Guardian Travel



    Walking the length of the Wharfe sounds pleasant enough. Some nice scenery and a few very pleasant towns. And I like Bolton Abbey very much. Happy memories of hearing a child fall into the Wharfe while crossing the surprisingly treacherous stepping stones. Happy because improbably it wasn't my child, and I hadn't brought a change of clothes in case of that eventuality.
    Though more pleasant still to cycle it. The Dales are agreeably conducive to cycling, until you reach the end of the dale you're in and have to haul your fat arse over into the next dale.
    Though I'd quibble that the Wharfe is Yorkshire's most famous river. Strikes me as no more famous than the Ouse, Don, Nidd, Aire, Calder, Swale, Derwent, Tees or Hull.

    I rather like British travel writing, as my MSN feed at work has clearly twigged. I like to read about places I might reasonably go - or, even better, about places I have been, and I can enjoy feeling cheerfully exasperated with the writer who has clearly Got It Wrong.
    I like domestic British travel. We still live in a beautiful, historic country, for all our problems

    Indeed I am about to set off on a mini UK road trip (expect pics of drinks in woods)

    I am just empathising with the poor Guardian travel writers, forbidden to go anywhere exotic. My guess is the more talented ones will simply leave
    Moral character is less profitable than cheating, lying and grifting. Think of the shareholders!
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 10,730

    eek said:

    To go back to byelections briefly, there are a three main scenarios:
    1. Lab/LD engage in a dick-measuring contest and the Tories win
    2. As above only Lab or LD win despite the willy waving
    3. One of Lab / LD backs down and the other wins

    The general public have shown that they are good at diescerning who the ABC candidate is, and I anticipate that the first proper poll to come out after the GoNads incident will show them the way.

    My party (LD) clearly thinks it is winnable. Labour appear to be in the same place. Both with some justification. So the challenge now is what happens if the informal arrangements elsewhere don't happen here...?

    Issue for Labour is they can't give the Lib Dems a clear run because there is no other campaign they can focus their troops on...

    Which is the only thing Nadine has done as a favour for Rishi - as Labour need to be seen to campaign they could easily spilit the vote and let a Tory sneak through the middle.

    Which is actually a decent result for Labour as the seat would likely be a Labour seat (and probably would become one at the next general election) were the Lib Dems not actively campaigning.
    There is a blindness / arrogance / stupidity with some Labour activists that their way is the only way. That everyone should vote Labour and therefore all seats could be won. Whats more they point to results like winning Canterbury or Kensington and Chelski as proof of this.

    Whilst its true that seats can swing in previously unthinkable ways, you also have to accept that your way is not the only way and that Other People may see things differently. But if Mid Beds voters put us 1st and them 2nd I can't them accepting it. If the Tories then hold the seat that would be blamed on us...
    In general voters inclined to vote tactically will do so for the party previously in second place, unless the level of campaigning makes it obvious that they aren't bothering. I don't think it's arrogant to suggest that the LibDems really didn't need to go all out in a seat where their vote in the last two election was 6% and 12% - after all, at the GE, if they designate everywhere where they came second in 2019 as targets, they will be more than busy, without also trying for seats where they came third. In the same spirit, Labour didn't make Somerton and Frome a priority - Labour had 12% there in 2019 and quite rightly didn't make a significant effort in the by-election, just as the LibDems in Selby (on 8.6% in 2019) didn't bother much there.

    The problem, which we could all see coming, is that this isn't being fought at the same time as other by-elections, so the unofficial division of attention that happened with Somerton/Selby isn't possible. If the Tories win as a result, it will damage efforts for tactical voting elsewhere, which IMO isn't in anyone's interest but the Conservatives.
    Agree with above - except for (perhaps) last sentence.

    Because wouldn't yet another Tory by-election win due to oppo vote splitting, as in Uxbridge, but without ULEX factor, underline the need for better strategy re: tactical voting? Among likely GE voters as well as party activists and hacks?
    The problem is that tactical voting only works if there is the sort of tacit restraint that we saw in Somerton and Selby. If one the alternatives go for everywhere hell for leather, then (a) it creates bad feeling and reluctance to support them even when they really are the obvious alternative and (b) it makes it genuinely hard to work out who the tactical voter should support.

    I do see it's hard to resist when there's only one by-election running, but it's a pity.
    There are 2 by-elections because there's also Rutherglen, and I don't think the LDs are trying there!
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 4,879

    eek said:

    To go back to byelections briefly, there are a three main scenarios:
    1. Lab/LD engage in a dick-measuring contest and the Tories win
    2. As above only Lab or LD win despite the willy waving
    3. One of Lab / LD backs down and the other wins

    The general public have shown that they are good at diescerning who the ABC candidate is, and I anticipate that the first proper poll to come out after the GoNads incident will show them the way.

    My party (LD) clearly thinks it is winnable. Labour appear to be in the same place. Both with some justification. So the challenge now is what happens if the informal arrangements elsewhere don't happen here...?

    Issue for Labour is they can't give the Lib Dems a clear run because there is no other campaign they can focus their troops on...

    Which is the only thing Nadine has done as a favour for Rishi - as Labour need to be seen to campaign they could easily spilit the vote and let a Tory sneak through the middle.

    Which is actually a decent result for Labour as the seat would likely be a Labour seat (and probably would become one at the next general election) were the Lib Dems not actively campaigning.
    There is a blindness / arrogance / stupidity with some Labour activists that their way is the only way. That everyone should vote Labour and therefore all seats could be won. Whats more they point to results like winning Canterbury or Kensington and Chelski as proof of this.

    Whilst its true that seats can swing in previously unthinkable ways, you also have to accept that your way is not the only way and that Other People may see things differently. But if Mid Beds voters put us 1st and them 2nd I can't them accepting it. If the Tories then hold the seat that would be blamed on us...
    In general voters inclined to vote tactically will do so for the party previously in second place, unless the level of campaigning makes it obvious that they aren't bothering. I don't think it's arrogant to suggest that the LibDems really didn't need to go all out in a seat where their vote in the last two election was 6% and 12% - after all, at the GE, if they designate everywhere where they came second in 2019 as targets, they will be more than busy, without also trying for seats where they came third. In the same spirit, Labour didn't make Somerton and Frome a priority - Labour had 12% there in 2019 and quite rightly didn't make a significant effort in the by-election, just as the LibDems in Selby (on 8.6% in 2019) didn't bother much there.

    The problem, which we could all see coming, is that this isn't being fought at the same time as other by-elections, so the unofficial division of attention that happened with Somerton/Selby isn't possible. If the Tories win as a result, it will damage efforts for tactical voting elsewhere, which IMO isn't in anyone's interest but the Conservatives.
    Agree with above - except for (perhaps) last sentence.

    Because wouldn't yet another Tory by-election win due to oppo vote splitting, as in Uxbridge, but without ULEX factor, underline the need for better strategy re: tactical voting? Among likely GE voters as well as party activists and hacks?
    The problem is that tactical voting only works if there is the sort of tacit restraint that we saw in Somerton and Selby. If one the alternatives go for everywhere hell for leather, then (a) it creates bad feeling and reluctance to support them even when they really are the obvious alternative and (b) it makes it genuinely hard to work out who the tactical voter should support.

    I do see it's hard to resist when there's only one by-election running, but it's a pity.
    There are 2 by-elections because there's also Rutherglen, and I don't think the LDs are trying there!
    Nor are the SNP!
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