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Will an 81-year-old Biden really be on the ballot in Iowa? – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,161
edited September 2023 in General
imageWill an 81-year-old Biden really be on the ballot in Iowa? – politicalbetting.com

I have never been really confident that Joe Biden will seek a second term in next year’s presidential election. The reason is fairly obvious – he is just too old and if he were to serve a full second term he would be 86 by the time he handled a handed over to his successor.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • LennonLennon Posts: 1,779
    edited August 2023
    First

    (Edit - and in terms of the article, I wonder if Biden is waiting to see what happens on the Republican side. If it looks like Trump is going to be the nominee, then Biden will want to run again to make sure that Trump's beaten, and suspect that he doesn't think Harris or Buttigieg or whoever will do that. If it's someone other than Trump then I suspect he'll be more OK letting it be someone else that runs. The difficulty is that the Dem and Rep primaries run alongside one another - so either he pulls out genuinely last minute (ie basically at the convention) in which case it surely has to be his proposed VP that then heads the ticket, or he has to make a call prior to the Reps confirming one way or the other.)
  • ClippPClippP Posts: 1,904
    Indeed
  • Yes.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,373
    He should withdraw, but I wonder if he will. How many world leaders willingly give up power before they have to - even in democracies?
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,717
    Why is Biden's age again wrong in the header? It's easy to look it up.
  • Old age may prevent a British Biden from becoming Prime Minister but doesn't seem a bar in America's gerontocracy.
  • Hopefully Biden or Trump will not be the last men standing. Thing is, I don't get a say in it, only the yanks do, and they seem to like what's put before them.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,188
    edited August 2023
    I think he'll be on the ballot.

    Joe Biden
    +£504.66
    The field
    +£114.71

    is my Dem nom book.

    Ensure you're long Harris would be my advice for those worried about Biden dropping out.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,373
    geoffw said:

    Why is Biden's age again wrong in the header? It's easy to look it up.

    By the time Iowa rocks around we will be in 2024 and Biden will be 81. So it isn't wrong.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,986
    I wonder if effectively what Americans will be voting for next year is an avatar of Joe Biden, with the business of government increasingly carried out by others. Biden as a kind of digital mascot, or NFT, of the office of POTUS.

    Not the worst idea in the world. It kind of worked when Boris Johnson was a mascot for the office of the Mayor of London, and worked less well when he attempted to actually make policy as PM. Other countries have ceremonial presidents and it works well. Biden of course being Irish, this would be in keeping with the ceremonial Irish presidency.
  • geoffw said:

    Why is Biden's age again wrong in the header? It's easy to look it up.

    He'll be 81 at the time of the Iowa caucus.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,373

    Old age may prevent a British Biden from becoming Prime Minister but doesn't seem a bar in America's gerontocracy.

    Oldest PM ever to enter office - Gladstone in 1892, aged 82. Resigned 1894, aged 84.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,188
    ydoethur said:

    Old age may prevent a British Biden from becoming Prime Minister but doesn't seem a bar in America's gerontocracy.

    Oldest PM ever to enter office - Gladstone in 1892, aged 82. Resigned 1894, aged 84.
    Back when 82 really was very very old indeed.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    The filing deadlines typically seem to be like 3 or 4 months before the election, so if Iowa are going to do their caucus in January, you probably only have a month or two to win a bet that he isn't.

    The hitch is that nobody knows when Iowa Dems are going to have their caucus, and also it's sort of not a caucus.
  • Pulpstar said:

    I think he'll be on the ballot.

    Joe Biden
    +£504.66
    The field
    +£114.71

    is my Dem nom book.

    Ensure you're long Harris would be my advice for those worried about Biden dropping out.

    What does the field look like without RFK Jr?
  • Lennon said:

    First

    (Edit - and in terms of the article, I wonder if Biden is waiting to see what happens on the Republican side. If it looks like Trump is going to be the nominee, then Biden will want to run again to make sure that Trump's beaten, and suspect that he doesn't think Harris or Buttigieg or whoever will do that. If it's someone other than Trump then I suspect he'll be more OK letting it be someone else that runs. The difficulty is that the Dem and Rep primaries run alongside one another - so either he pulls out genuinely last minute (ie basically at the convention) in which case it surely has to be his proposed VP that then heads the ticket, or he has to make a call prior to the Reps confirming one way or the other.)

    I suppose that under those circumstances - and if he does actually win - then what will really matter will be the VP choice as there has to be a very high chance they will be the next POTUS.

    Mind you I think I remember saying a similar thing back in 2020 and that turned out to be wrong.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,188
    edited August 2023

    Pulpstar said:

    I think he'll be on the ballot.

    Joe Biden
    +£504.66
    The field
    +£114.71

    is my Dem nom book.

    Ensure you're long Harris would be my advice for those worried about Biden dropping out.

    What does the field look like without RFK Jr?
    He is +114.71 in the Dem nomination book, it's the presidential market where I've got the true lays as there's more dodgy no hopers that constantly pop up.
    Glenn Youngkin is someone who has moved in to ~ 65-1 despite not being in the GOP debates or running.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,373

    Lennon said:

    First

    (Edit - and in terms of the article, I wonder if Biden is waiting to see what happens on the Republican side. If it looks like Trump is going to be the nominee, then Biden will want to run again to make sure that Trump's beaten, and suspect that he doesn't think Harris or Buttigieg or whoever will do that. If it's someone other than Trump then I suspect he'll be more OK letting it be someone else that runs. The difficulty is that the Dem and Rep primaries run alongside one another - so either he pulls out genuinely last minute (ie basically at the convention) in which case it surely has to be his proposed VP that then heads the ticket, or he has to make a call prior to the Reps confirming one way or the other.)

    I suppose that under those circumstances - and if he does actually win - then what will really matter will be the VP choice as there has to be a very high chance they will be the next POTUS.

    Mind you I think I remember saying a similar thing back in 2020 and that turned out to be wrong.
    Well - it hasn't proven right yet, which is different.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708

    Pulpstar said:

    I think he'll be on the ballot.

    Joe Biden
    +£504.66
    The field
    +£114.71

    is my Dem nom book.

    Ensure you're long Harris would be my advice for those worried about Biden dropping out.

    What does the field look like without RFK Jr?
    Heavily characterized by crystals.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,717
    edited August 2023
    My own view is that there is a good chance Biden will decide to call it a day but rather than create a lame duck presidency for the final period he is waiting until the latest possible moment before announcing his intentions.
    Good point. Might he also change running mate if he does run?
  • ydoethur said:

    Lennon said:

    First

    (Edit - and in terms of the article, I wonder if Biden is waiting to see what happens on the Republican side. If it looks like Trump is going to be the nominee, then Biden will want to run again to make sure that Trump's beaten, and suspect that he doesn't think Harris or Buttigieg or whoever will do that. If it's someone other than Trump then I suspect he'll be more OK letting it be someone else that runs. The difficulty is that the Dem and Rep primaries run alongside one another - so either he pulls out genuinely last minute (ie basically at the convention) in which case it surely has to be his proposed VP that then heads the ticket, or he has to make a call prior to the Reps confirming one way or the other.)

    I suppose that under those circumstances - and if he does actually win - then what will really matter will be the VP choice as there has to be a very high chance they will be the next POTUS.

    Mind you I think I remember saying a similar thing back in 2020 and that turned out to be wrong.
    Well - it hasn't proven right yet, which is different.
    I assume that if a reelected Biden dies between the election and the inauguration then the VP automatically become POTUS?
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677
    geoffw said:

    \
    Good point. Might he also change running mate?

    Unless Harris agrees (and why would she?) then it's difficult to see how he does that.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    Fpt for @Richard_Tyndall

    (I missed the rest of the debate coz I went off to watch Taboo (very good))

    “Yes I am but don't tell Leon that, it would spoil his fun :)

    And I do work with the Northern Syria Early Neolithic project. I was fortunate enough about a decade ago to acquire the library of Sir Max Mallowan including many of his field notebooks of his work in Northern Syria. This resulted in me making contacts with the archaeologists working there and I have done the occasional bits of research work over the years. Although there was a long hiatus during the ISIS takeover.

    Some of my collection is also on display at the Vessuna Roman Museum in Perigueux and I have been providing research materials on early cylinder seals to the Lebanese author Hooda Shawa.

    But apparently I am just a dumb oilman who knows nothing compared to a tourist who likes a drink.”

    +++

    Fair play. I relish a good put down - and that’s an impressive example. You know your archaeology 👍 and I withdraw my accusation that you are “just an oilman in Lincolnshire”

    But I am - nonetheless - right on the specific case of Gobekli Tepe and the Tas Tepeler. If you go there and get to know the archaeologists - which you haven’t and you don’t - then they relax and give you their real opinions. And they believe they probably are “digging up a lost civilisation”. They whisper it -rather than shout it online - precisely because it sounds like a bad Netflix series

    It’s the most likely explanation for what they are now unearthing

    So on that specific point Graham Hancock has been “validated”. Tho he may have simply got lucky with his thesis

    The rest of his speculations are fun populist woo archaeology, and should be seen as such. His detractors take him too seriously, paradoxically
  • So long as Trump is likely to be the Rep candidate Biden will be the Dem candidate. Pretty much any other Rep might well beat Biden but that hardly matters does it. Biden retains the hoodoo over the Orange one and all the Dems know it
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,188

    Lennon said:

    First

    (Edit - and in terms of the article, I wonder if Biden is waiting to see what happens on the Republican side. If it looks like Trump is going to be the nominee, then Biden will want to run again to make sure that Trump's beaten, and suspect that he doesn't think Harris or Buttigieg or whoever will do that. If it's someone other than Trump then I suspect he'll be more OK letting it be someone else that runs. The difficulty is that the Dem and Rep primaries run alongside one another - so either he pulls out genuinely last minute (ie basically at the convention) in which case it surely has to be his proposed VP that then heads the ticket, or he has to make a call prior to the Reps confirming one way or the other.)

    I suppose that under those circumstances - and if he does actually win - then what will really matter will be the VP choice as there has to be a very high chance they will be the next POTUS.

    Mind you I think I remember saying a similar thing back in 2020 and that turned out to be wrong.
    He'll be running with Harris again, surely. If Biden wins again the chance of her becoming next president must be fairly chunky
  • eekeek Posts: 28,368
    Dura_Ace said:

    geoffw said:

    \
    Good point. Might he also change running mate?

    Unless Harris agrees (and why would she?) then it's difficult to see how he does that.
    That was one reason why I'm surprised they haven't tried to shift Harris to the Supreme Court. She is supposedly more qualified than most of Trumps nominations..
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083

    Old age may prevent a British Biden from becoming Prime Minister but doesn't seem a bar in America's gerontocracy.

    Interestingly it seems American presidents have been far more consistent in their ages than UK PMs, almost all being in their 50s, and only 7 or so below 45 or over 65.

    Whereas PMs have 13 under 45 and 6 over 65, over a third of the total.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    Presidents don’t often change their running mate, but it has happened.
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 6,813
    edited August 2023
    What I suspect you’re betting on here in Biden’s health going into decline in the next 6-8 months. He is going to run. It will have to be something external that stops him from doing so. If say for the sake of argument he suffered a health related episode like a stroke or more came out about the cognitive side of things, he’ll come under pressure to retire. If the status quo is maintained, he’ll be running - he has made that clear.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083
    The ex PM of Malaysia has them beat. 94 when he last left, and still fought an election where he lost his seat.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,188
    geoffw said:

    My own view is that there is a good chance Biden will decide to call it a day but rather than create a lame duck presidency for the final period he is waiting until the latest possible moment before announcing his intentions.
    Good point. Might he also change running mate if he does run?

    Less likely than him standing down. If there's one thing the upper echelons of the Democrat party are known for it's waiting your turn. The last nominee to truly disrupt that was probably Obama, who is/was an exceptional political talent. Betfair's favourite Democrat ex-Biden is err... Gavin Newsom. Gavin Newsom !
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 6,813

    Presidents don’t often change their running mate, but it has happened.

    If Biden runs he runs with Harris. The optics of sacking her will play far, far worse than just keeping her.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    eek said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    geoffw said:

    \
    Good point. Might he also change running mate?

    Unless Harris agrees (and why would she?) then it's difficult to see how he does that.
    That was one reason why I'm surprised they haven't tried to shift Harris to the Supreme Court. She is supposedly more qualified than most of Trumps nominations..
    Cue hilarious scenes as Manchin and Sinema refuse to confirm her, and the Democrats' next-in-line is a VP whose president just publicly tried to get rid of her.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,188
    eek said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    geoffw said:

    \
    Good point. Might he also change running mate?

    Unless Harris agrees (and why would she?) then it's difficult to see how he does that.
    That was one reason why I'm surprised they haven't tried to shift Harris to the Supreme Court. She is supposedly more qualified than most of Trumps nominations..
    She's only 58 - a mere pup in US political and legal terms. Plenty of time for her to head to SCOTUS yet.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083
    Biden was seen as too old by some last time. More might this time. But then his opponent will be too old by the same measure so it evens out - Biden looks frailer but not incapable.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,986
    Idalia update. Now a hurricane, a pinhole eye is starting to clear out, and it's about to enter 24 hours of rapid intensification before sliding up the West coast of Florida and flooding lots of waterfront homes.

    Insurance companies time to adopt the brace position, especially if it jogs east closer to Tampa Bay.

    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/5de84b1bc01c8662695502197c12545a0141d7e24c9ee82b8dc2ec58bc8b859d.png
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,373
    edited August 2023

    ydoethur said:

    Lennon said:

    First

    (Edit - and in terms of the article, I wonder if Biden is waiting to see what happens on the Republican side. If it looks like Trump is going to be the nominee, then Biden will want to run again to make sure that Trump's beaten, and suspect that he doesn't think Harris or Buttigieg or whoever will do that. If it's someone other than Trump then I suspect he'll be more OK letting it be someone else that runs. The difficulty is that the Dem and Rep primaries run alongside one another - so either he pulls out genuinely last minute (ie basically at the convention) in which case it surely has to be his proposed VP that then heads the ticket, or he has to make a call prior to the Reps confirming one way or the other.)

    I suppose that under those circumstances - and if he does actually win - then what will really matter will be the VP choice as there has to be a very high chance they will be the next POTUS.

    Mind you I think I remember saying a similar thing back in 2020 and that turned out to be wrong.
    Well - it hasn't proven right yet, which is different.
    I assume that if a reelected Biden dies between the election and the inauguration then the VP automatically become POTUS?
    It's never arisen. But yes, that is probably what would happen.

    The one time it came close was in 1872, when defeated Democrat Horace Greeley died three weeks after the election. His electors splintered several ways, with several effectively abstaining.

    Different rules of course would apply if Biden died before the electors cast their votes and if he died after Harris had certified the result. If the result has been certified, then (Harris as) the Vice-President would automatically become President.

    If it was beforehand I suppose in theory the Democratic Party could order its voters to vote for somebody else e.g. Gretchen Whitmer or Buttigieg. But it seems a bit unlikely. However, the electors couldn't vote for Biden as he wouldn't meet the criteria (on account of being dead) and of course they couldn't vote for his running mate as both President and Vice-President. So they would need to find a new Vice-President in some haste.

    The most entertaining scenario would be if Biden died immediately after the election having nominated another running mate. Harris then becomes President and could in theory take over the votes *and* the running mate...which would cause massive confusion!
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,373
    eek said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    geoffw said:

    \
    Good point. Might he also change running mate?

    Unless Harris agrees (and why would she?) then it's difficult to see how he does that.
    That was one reason why I'm surprised they haven't tried to shift Harris to the Supreme Court. She is supposedly more qualified than most of Trumps nominations..
    That's damning somebody with faint praise if ever I heard it.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,373

    Presidents don’t often change their running mate, but it has happened.

    If Biden runs he runs with Harris. The optics of sacking her will play far, far worse than just keeping her.
    Ford believed ditching Rockefeller for Dole was one of the things that cost him the 1976 election.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,717
    Is there an actual actuary on this board?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083

    Presidents don’t often change their running mate, but it has happened.

    If Biden runs he runs with Harris. The optics of sacking her will play far, far worse than just keeping her.
    He won't, but it'd be funny if Trump ran with Pence again. Pence tries to make a big deal that he stood to Trump and Trump should not be President, which is great, but he is still planning to vote for Trump if he's the nominee, so why not just kowtow if Trump invited him back?
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,521
    edited August 2023
    Leon said:

    Fpt for @Richard_Tyndall

    (I missed the rest of the debate coz I went off to watch Taboo (very good))

    “Yes I am but don't tell Leon that, it would spoil his fun :)

    And I do work with the Northern Syria Early Neolithic project. I was fortunate enough about a decade ago to acquire the library of Sir Max Mallowan including many of his field notebooks of his work in Northern Syria. This resulted in me making contacts with the archaeologists working there and I have done the occasional bits of research work over the years. Although there was a long hiatus during the ISIS takeover.

    Some of my collection is also on display at the Vessuna Roman Museum in Perigueux and I have been providing research materials on early cylinder seals to the Lebanese author Hooda Shawa.

    But apparently I am just a dumb oilman who knows nothing compared to a tourist who likes a drink.”

    +++

    Fair play. I relish a good put down - and that’s an impressive example. You know your archaeology 👍 and I withdraw my accusation that you are “just an oilman in Lincolnshire”

    But I am - nonetheless - right on the specific case of Gobekli Tepe and the Tas Tepeler. If you go there and get to know the archaeologists - which you haven’t and you don’t - then they relax and give you their real opinions. And they believe they probably are “digging up a lost civilisation”. They whisper it -rather than shout it online - precisely because it sounds like a bad Netflix series

    It’s the most likely explanation for what they are now unearthing

    So on that specific point Graham Hancock has been “validated”. Tho he may have simply got lucky with his thesis

    The rest of his speculations are fun populist woo archaeology, and should be seen as such. His detractors take him too seriously, paradoxically

    Cheers Leon.

    I suppose over the next few years we will find out who is right on this either way. It does look like the area has dozens of these hilltop temples waiting to be found but I still don't see it as anything that rocks the archaeological boat in the way Hancock would like to claim. All the more so when his other 'evidence' is so clearly wrong.

    Edit: I would add that the reason his detractors get so annoyed with him is the amount of time he spends claiming that archaeologists are hiding or suppressing stuff when all they are doing is expressing the uncertainty of so much of what they do. As professionals they don't have the luxury of leaping onto every far out theory when there is no real evidence for it.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,717
    Interesting … lv insurance says:
    You can buy insurance for another person as long as you are able to take a policy and there would be some provable financial loss if they died. This is called ‘insurable interest’.

    Would a bet on the US presidency be an ‘insurable interest’?
    Asking for some friends …
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    I think he'll be on the ballot.

    Joe Biden
    +£504.66
    The field
    +£114.71

    is my Dem nom book.

    Ensure you're long Harris would be my advice for those worried about Biden dropping out.

    What does the field look like without RFK Jr?
    He is +114.71 in the Dem nomination book, it's the presidential market where I've got the true lays as there's more dodgy no hopers that constantly pop up.
    Glenn Youngkin is someone who has moved in to ~ 65-1 despite not being in the GOP debates or running.
    Thanks for the reminder - just laid him.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,957
    edited August 2023
    Leon said:

    Fpt for @Richard_Tyndall

    (I missed the rest of the debate coz I went off to watch Taboo (very good))

    “Yes I am but don't tell Leon that, it would spoil his fun :)

    And I do work with the Northern Syria Early Neolithic project. I was fortunate enough about a decade ago to acquire the library of Sir Max Mallowan including many of his field notebooks of his work in Northern Syria. This resulted in me making contacts with the archaeologists working there and I have done the occasional bits of research work over the years. Although there was a long hiatus during the ISIS takeover.

    Some of my collection is also on display at the Vessuna Roman Museum in Perigueux and I have been providing research materials on early cylinder seals to the Lebanese author Hooda Shawa.

    But apparently I am just a dumb oilman who knows nothing compared to a tourist who likes a drink.”

    +++

    Fair play. I relish a good put down - and that’s an impressive example. You know your archaeology 👍 and I withdraw my accusation that you are “just an oilman in Lincolnshire”

    But I am - nonetheless - right on the specific case of Gobekli Tepe and the Tas Tepeler. If you go there and get to know the archaeologists - which you haven’t and you don’t - then they relax and give you their real opinions. And they believe they probably are “digging up a lost civilisation”. They whisper it -rather than shout it online - precisely because it sounds like a bad Netflix series

    It’s the most likely explanation for what they are now unearthing

    So on that specific point Graham Hancock has been “validated”. Tho he may have simply got lucky with his thesis

    The rest of his speculations are fun populist woo archaeology, and should be seen as such. His detractors take him too seriously, paradoxically

    Oh god you're not going to swan back in and then be all polite and to the point about everything, are you?
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,051
    TimS said:

    I wonder if effectively what Americans will be voting for next year is an avatar of Joe Biden, with the business of government increasingly carried out by others. Biden as a kind of digital mascot, or NFT, of the office of POTUS.

    Not the worst idea in the world. It kind of worked when Boris Johnson was a mascot for the office of the Mayor of London, and worked less well when he attempted to actually make policy as PM. Other countries have ceremonial presidents and it works well. Biden of course being Irish, this would be in keeping with the ceremonial Irish presidency.

    Aren’t all leaders kind of like this? No one can involve themselves in the day to day running of every government department, so it has to be about electing a figurehead who will select a team. Obama didn’t write the text of the Obamacare bill, etc.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277

    Leon said:

    Fpt for @Richard_Tyndall

    (I missed the rest of the debate coz I went off to watch Taboo (very good))

    “Yes I am but don't tell Leon that, it would spoil his fun :)

    And I do work with the Northern Syria Early Neolithic project. I was fortunate enough about a decade ago to acquire the library of Sir Max Mallowan including many of his field notebooks of his work in Northern Syria. This resulted in me making contacts with the archaeologists working there and I have done the occasional bits of research work over the years. Although there was a long hiatus during the ISIS takeover.

    Some of my collection is also on display at the Vessuna Roman Museum in Perigueux and I have been providing research materials on early cylinder seals to the Lebanese author Hooda Shawa.

    But apparently I am just a dumb oilman who knows nothing compared to a tourist who likes a drink.”

    +++

    Fair play. I relish a good put down - and that’s an impressive example. You know your archaeology 👍 and I withdraw my accusation that you are “just an oilman in Lincolnshire”

    But I am - nonetheless - right on the specific case of Gobekli Tepe and the Tas Tepeler. If you go there and get to know the archaeologists - which you haven’t and you don’t - then they relax and give you their real opinions. And they believe they probably are “digging up a lost civilisation”. They whisper it -rather than shout it online - precisely because it sounds like a bad Netflix series

    It’s the most likely explanation for what they are now unearthing

    So on that specific point Graham Hancock has been “validated”. Tho he may have simply got lucky with his thesis

    The rest of his speculations are fun populist woo archaeology, and should be seen as such. His detractors take him too seriously, paradoxically

    Cheers Leon.

    I suppose over the next few years we will find out who is right on this either way. It does look like the area has dozens of these hilltop temples waiting to be found but I still don't see it as anything that rocks the archaeological boat in the way Hancock would like to claim. All the more so when his other 'evidence' is so clearly wrong.
    When I was last there in 2022 I was shown one site - by a very senior archaeologist - where they haven’t even started digging. I was told that subterranean analysis indicates the site is hiding THOUSANDS of pillars, T-stones, etc - all part of the Gobekli Tepe culture

    Add in the consistent motifs in the often-beautiful sculptures and friezes, the evidence of advanced architecture (shrines, auditoriums, water pipes) - and the incredible age - 12,000 years, 7000 years older than Sumeria - and how else do you describe this? It’s a lost civilisation

    And yes it is absolutely revolutionary. Pre-ceramic, pre-agriculture. How did they do it? Did they have writing? No one knows. Which makes it a magnificent mystery

    I have personal photos to evidence all this but I do not wish to spam the site with “penis chambers” before noon

  • darkagedarkage Posts: 5,398
    FPT

    darkage said:

    darkage said:

    Nigelb said:

    .

    kamski said:

    darkage said:

    Good to see @Leon re-emerge. I do agree with the sentiment though that this website is turning in to an echo chamber with an increasingly limited acceptable range of opinion. It is reading like a forum for widespread agreement on progressive talking points. Ironically when I started reading the comments on this website, perhaps 8 years ago, it was to try and challenge my own 'left/liberal' beliefs as many (but by no means all) of the commentators were taking an informed 'right wing', pro Brexit perspective. It is mostly now just evidence of the problem of progressive groupthink. The problem with those who have succumbed to this viewpoint is that there will be things that happen in the future in politics that go against your worldview and you have no way of explaining, because you have lost the ability to understand the other side of the argument.

    Some examples of what you mean?
    The clearest example I can think of of an "unacceptable" (if you mean swiftly condemned) opinion on here is someone suggesting something like the West should force Ukraine to accept a ceasefire and negotiated peace. But I'm not sure that is an example of progressive groupthink.
    I think rather it's about the widely held view that minor assaults on women are not something to be taken notice of.

    Darkage is right to say that there's a strong consensus here against that viewpoint.
    But it's wrong to say I don't understand that viewpoint, when I argue against it. I just think it's quite wrong.
    On this you overlooked my point (that the BBC was being one sided in its coverage of a story which I thought was inappropriate given its status as a public service broadcaster) and went on to have a different discussion where you agreed with each other that the perspective offered by the BBC is correct. It is quite a good example of my point about being in a progressive echo chamber.

    Anyway... on with the rest of the day.
    Please state the 'other side' of this story; one that paints Rubiales' actions in a positive light.
    There isn't any way of painting his actions in a positive light and I would agree that his response has been a PR disaster. But I think he is essentially saying that it was consensual. I'd suggest that he deserves a fair hearing - particularly from the BBC - as would anyone in this position.
    That's fair enough. But do you think his actions and words *after* the event help or harm his cause?

    Also: 'consensual' needs to be said by both sides, not just one, and I understand she is saying that it was not. Did it look consensual to you?

    There are also other issues, as Richard states below. I find it hard to see how the BBC could be less one-sided in this case: Rubiales did wrong, and his later words and actions have made matters far worse for him.
    I've already said that I am not defending him, even though that is what people assume I am doing. My point is that he deserves a fair hearing and the BBC should just be reporting on the facts. I agree that it doesn't look good for him because of his conduct after the event but the BBC should just let the story run its course without being a participant in it. As a public service broadcaster it should just report what X and Y said about the situation and what opinions people are being expressed about it. It shouldn't make massive speculative judgements like 'this is Spain's Metoo moment' which may ultimately turn out to be wrong. Leave that to other people/outlets.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    edited August 2023
    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    Fpt for @Richard_Tyndall

    (I missed the rest of the debate coz I went off to watch Taboo (very good))

    “Yes I am but don't tell Leon that, it would spoil his fun :)

    And I do work with the Northern Syria Early Neolithic project. I was fortunate enough about a decade ago to acquire the library of Sir Max Mallowan including many of his field notebooks of his work in Northern Syria. This resulted in me making contacts with the archaeologists working there and I have done the occasional bits of research work over the years. Although there was a long hiatus during the ISIS takeover.

    Some of my collection is also on display at the Vessuna Roman Museum in Perigueux and I have been providing research materials on early cylinder seals to the Lebanese author Hooda Shawa.

    But apparently I am just a dumb oilman who knows nothing compared to a tourist who likes a drink.”

    +++

    Fair play. I relish a good put down - and that’s an impressive example. You know your archaeology 👍 and I withdraw my accusation that you are “just an oilman in Lincolnshire”

    But I am - nonetheless - right on the specific case of Gobekli Tepe and the Tas Tepeler. If you go there and get to know the archaeologists - which you haven’t and you don’t - then they relax and give you their real opinions. And they believe they probably are “digging up a lost civilisation”. They whisper it -rather than shout it online - precisely because it sounds like a bad Netflix series

    It’s the most likely explanation for what they are now unearthing

    So on that specific point Graham Hancock has been “validated”. Tho he may have simply got lucky with his thesis

    The rest of his speculations are fun populist woo archaeology, and should be seen as such. His detractors take him too seriously, paradoxically

    Oh god you're not going to swan back in and then be all polite and to the point about everything, are you?
    Lol. No
  • kle4 said:

    Old age may prevent a British Biden from becoming Prime Minister but doesn't seem a bar in America's gerontocracy.

    Interestingly it seems American presidents have been far more consistent in their ages than UK PMs, almost all being in their 50s, and only 7 or so below 45 or over 65.

    Whereas PMs have 13 under 45 and 6 over 65, over a third of the total.
    There are 15 members of Congress older than Joe Biden and they were all voted in by card-carrying Americans who clearly do not see Biden's age as a bar to high office.
    https://fiscalnote.com/blog/how-old-118th-congress
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677
    darkage said:

    FPT

    darkage said:

    darkage said:

    Nigelb said:

    .

    kamski said:

    darkage said:

    Good to see @Leon re-emerge. I do agree with the sentiment though that this website is turning in to an echo chamber with an increasingly limited acceptable range of opinion. It is reading like a forum for widespread agreement on progressive talking points. Ironically when I started reading the comments on this website, perhaps 8 years ago, it was to try and challenge my own 'left/liberal' beliefs as many (but by no means all) of the commentators were taking an informed 'right wing', pro Brexit perspective. It is mostly now just evidence of the problem of progressive groupthink. The problem with those who have succumbed to this viewpoint is that there will be things that happen in the future in politics that go against your worldview and you have no way of explaining, because you have lost the ability to understand the other side of the argument.

    Some examples of what you mean?
    The clearest example I can think of of an "unacceptable" (if you mean swiftly condemned) opinion on here is someone suggesting something like the West should force Ukraine to accept a ceasefire and negotiated peace. But I'm not sure that is an example of progressive groupthink.
    I think rather it's about the widely held view that minor assaults on women are not something to be taken notice of.

    Darkage is right to say that there's a strong consensus here against that viewpoint.
    But it's wrong to say I don't understand that viewpoint, when I argue against it. I just think it's quite wrong.
    On this you overlooked my point (that the BBC was being one sided in its coverage of a story which I thought was inappropriate given its status as a public service broadcaster) and went on to have a different discussion where you agreed with each other that the perspective offered by the BBC is correct. It is quite a good example of my point about being in a progressive echo chamber.

    Anyway... on with the rest of the day.
    Please state the 'other side' of this story; one that paints Rubiales' actions in a positive light.
    There isn't any way of painting his actions in a positive light and I would agree that his response has been a PR disaster. But I think he is essentially saying that it was consensual. I'd suggest that he deserves a fair hearing - particularly from the BBC - as would anyone in this position.
    That's fair enough. But do you think his actions and words *after* the event help or harm his cause?

    Also: 'consensual' needs to be said by both sides, not just one, and I understand she is saying that it was not. Did it look consensual to you?

    There are also other issues, as Richard states below. I find it hard to see how the BBC could be less one-sided in this case: Rubiales did wrong, and his later words and actions have made matters far worse for him.
    I've already said that I am not defending him, even though that is what people assume I am doing. My point is that he deserves a fair hearing and the BBC should just be reporting on the facts. I agree that it doesn't look good for him because of his conduct after the event but the BBC should just let the story run its course without being a participant in it. As a public service broadcaster it should just report what X and Y said about the situation and what opinions people are being expressed about it. It shouldn't make massive speculative judgements like 'this is Spain's Metoo moment' which may ultimately turn out to be wrong. Leave that to other people/outlets.
    Why are you arsed if the BBC editorialises about a shiny Spanish lecher?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,829

    Especially for @RochdalePioneers on the Graun feed ....

    "UK government confirms another delay to post-Brexit food checks
    The UK government has confirmed that it will delay the introduction of post-Brexit checks on food by another three months, after warnings the long-promised new regime would not be ready in time.

    The UK’s Cabinet Office said that “remaining sanitary and phytosanitary controls, as well as full customs controls for non-qualifying Northern Ireland goods, […] will now be introduced from January 2024.

    The government had said in April that new checks would come into force on Halloween, 31 October."
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    I see Vanilla is still quite annoying
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 4,664
    edited August 2023
    OT - I see the Air Traffic Control incident wasn't Russian hackers after all.

    It was the French putting in a badly formatted flight plan.

    Please don't tell me the input isn't properly checked/sanitised? Is there a Bobby Tables registered as a pilot?

    [ https://xkcd.com/327/ ]


    So cockup, not conspiracy.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    Pulpstar said:

    geoffw said:

    My own view is that there is a good chance Biden will decide to call it a day but rather than create a lame duck presidency for the final period he is waiting until the latest possible moment before announcing his intentions.
    Good point. Might he also change running mate if he does run?

    Less likely than him standing down. If there's one thing the upper echelons of the Democrat party are known for it's waiting your turn. The last nominee to truly disrupt that was probably Obama, who is/was an exceptional political talent. Betfair's favourite Democrat ex-Biden is err... Gavin Newsom. Gavin Newsom !
    Newsom has way too much baggage this cycle, I think. But depending on what happens in California over the next four years, a real chance next time around.

    It's hard to see the how the Democrats avoid a chaotic fight if Biden were to step down at the last minute.
    Harris has too poor a public image to get it unopposed, but there's no single obvious alternative - and a number of possibles.

    For that reason, if no other, I think Mike's theory is implausible.
    And for president, with an at least evens chance of being re-elected, to voluntarily step down after a single term seems equally unlikely.
  • I see the logic of Mike's case for Biden to call it a day at the last minute.

    However, Biden evidently hugely enjoys the job and feels he is up to it.

    There is a danger of overestimating the political element of this calculation, and grossly underestimating the personal element. He clearly didn't enjoy his brief retirement, and has relished being back at the centre.

    Few recent Presidents compare to Biden in terms of sheer love of the job. Trump is clearly desperate to get it back, but that's revenge and love of the crowds - ironically he always looked f***ing miserable when he actually had to be President.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,829
    Carnyx said:


    Especially for @RochdalePioneers on the Graun feed ....

    "UK government confirms another delay to post-Brexit food checks
    The UK government has confirmed that it will delay the introduction of post-Brexit checks on food by another three months, after warnings the long-promised new regime would not be ready in time.

    The UK’s Cabinet Office said that “remaining sanitary and phytosanitary controls, as well as full customs controls for non-qualifying Northern Ireland goods, […] will now be introduced from January 2024.

    The government had said in April that new checks would come into force on Halloween, 31 October."

    Edit: and some of the controls have been pushed back even more to two further different dates.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    Actually, sod it, I will allow myself one photo - by me, from 2022 - of the Notorious Penis Chamber at Karahan Tepe. Mainly coz I’ll do anything to stop people talking about fricking ULEZ, also coz I just like writing “notorious penis chamber”

    See here



    What is this 12,000 year old room? WTF is it for?

    At the moment, the best archaeological guess is that it is an initiation room for young adult males. It would have been roofed and dark. The boys would have stepped through the small door on the left, the room would have been half full of liquid piped in using the circled water channel. The liquid might have been animal blood - so one archaeologist told me. It might have poured through the mouth of the weird “head” acting as a spout. Then some ritual - sacrifice? Circumcision? Baptism? - would have been enacted. The boy becomes a man - a hunter - and then returns to the “audience room” just outside

    This is 12,000 years old!!! Anyone who doesn’t find this seriously weird, brilliant, spooky, compelling and, yes, a *bit Graham Hancocky* is lacking a soul
  • NerysHughesNerysHughes Posts: 3,375
    Leon said:

    Actually, sod it, I will allow myself one photo - by me, from 2022 - of the Notorious Penis Chamber at Karahan Tepe. Mainly coz I’ll do anything to stop people talking about fricking ULEZ, also coz I just like writing “notorious penis chamber”

    See here



    What is this 12,000 year old room? WTF is it for?

    At the moment, the best archaeological guess is that it is an initiation room for young adult males. It would have been roofed and dark. The boys would have stepped through the small door on the left, the room would have been half full of liquid piped in using the circled water channel. The liquid might have been animal blood - so one archaeologist told me. It might have poured through the mouth of the weird “head” acting as a spout. Then some ritual - sacrifice? Circumcision? Baptism? - would have been enacted. The boy becomes a man - a hunter - and then returns to the “audience room” just outside

    This is 12,000 years old!!! Anyone who doesn’t find this seriously weird, brilliant, spooky, compelling and, yes, a *bit Graham Hancocky* is lacking a soul

    It does also back up his theory about there being a "forgotten" civilisation from about that time period
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    edited August 2023

    Leon said:

    Actually, sod it, I will allow myself one photo - by me, from 2022 - of the Notorious Penis Chamber at Karahan Tepe. Mainly coz I’ll do anything to stop people talking about fricking ULEZ, also coz I just like writing “notorious penis chamber”

    See here



    What is this 12,000 year old room? WTF is it for?

    At the moment, the best archaeological guess is that it is an initiation room for young adult males. It would have been roofed and dark. The boys would have stepped through the small door on the left, the room would have been half full of liquid piped in using the circled water channel. The liquid might have been animal blood - so one archaeologist told me. It might have poured through the mouth of the weird “head” acting as a spout. Then some ritual - sacrifice? Circumcision? Baptism? - would have been enacted. The boy becomes a man - a hunter - and then returns to the “audience room” just outside

    This is 12,000 years old!!! Anyone who doesn’t find this seriously weird, brilliant, spooky, compelling and, yes, a *bit Graham Hancocky* is lacking a soul

    It does also back up his theory about there being a "forgotten" civilisation from about that time period
    Well, yes. Which is how this argument started. I pointed out - very decorously - that Hancock had been validated in this one corner of the world. Whether by luck or judgment who knows

    The rest of his overarching thesis consists of serious and often fascinating archaeology linked by spurious and often ludicrous speculation

    He’s fun. He’s speculative. He’s a lot better then Erik von Daniken but should still be taken with a large stone cistern of sacred Siwan salt
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,829

    Leon said:

    Actually, sod it, I will allow myself one photo - by me, from 2022 - of the Notorious Penis Chamber at Karahan Tepe. Mainly coz I’ll do anything to stop people talking about fricking ULEZ, also coz I just like writing “notorious penis chamber”

    See here



    What is this 12,000 year old room? WTF is it for?

    At the moment, the best archaeological guess is that it is an initiation room for young adult males. It would have been roofed and dark. The boys would have stepped through the small door on the left, the room would have been half full of liquid piped in using the circled water channel. The liquid might have been animal blood - so one archaeologist told me. It might have poured through the mouth of the weird “head” acting as a spout. Then some ritual - sacrifice? Circumcision? Baptism? - would have been enacted. The boy becomes a man - a hunter - and then returns to the “audience room” just outside

    This is 12,000 years old!!! Anyone who doesn’t find this seriously weird, brilliant, spooky, compelling and, yes, a *bit Graham Hancocky* is lacking a soul

    It does also back up his theory about there being a "forgotten" civilisation from about that time period
    There would inevitably be forgotten civilisations all over the word from about that time, so that isn't saying much.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    edited August 2023
    ydoethur said:

    Presidents don’t often change their running mate, but it has happened.

    If Biden runs he runs with Harris. The optics of sacking her will play far, far worse than just keeping her.
    Ford believed ditching Rockefeller for Dole was one of the things that cost him the 1976 election.
    Largely irrelevant post facto rationalisation, I think ?

    His pardon of Nixon is what really cost him the election - and gaffes like this:
    "There is no Soviet domination of Eastern Europe, and there never will be under a Ford administration."
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,148
    edited August 2023
    On topic. Morning all.

    An interesting question is whether Trump would go on the ballot in States with Democratic contol.

    Constitution 14th Amendment, Section 3, has been pointed out:

    Section 3.
    No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any state, who, having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any state legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of any state, to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof. But Congress may by a vote of two-thirds of each House, remove such disability.


    The way that reads, he needs a double 2/3 majority in Congress to get on the ballot.

    Republican states may try and ignore it; Democratic states may pay attention. And both will end up in the Supreme Court.
  • kle4 said:

    Presidents don’t often change their running mate, but it has happened.

    If Biden runs he runs with Harris. The optics of sacking her will play far, far worse than just keeping her.
    He won't, but it'd be funny if Trump ran with Pence again. Pence tries to make a big deal that he stood to Trump and Trump should not be President, which is great, but he is still planning to vote for Trump if he's the nominee, so why not just kowtow if Trump invited him back?
    There's no chance of that happening.

    Firstly, loyalty to Trump is rather important to Trump (don't know if you've noticed) and Pence has blown that forever.

    Secondly, Pence was nominated to reassure the religious right about the twice-divorced, New York "liberal" Trump hiding behind "build the wall" Trump. That's no longer necessary.

    Thirdly, the only reason for Pence himself to do it in the incredibly unlikely event of him being asked, is to boost his chances of winning in 2028. But all it would do is alienate everyone who has some respect for him for doing his duty whilst winning over very few of those who condemn him for letting Biden "steal" the election. It's just so damaging to his remaining credibility, it isn't worth it. All very well to be cuckolded by Trump as he was 2016-20 to (as he saw it, and not unreasonably) make him well placed to follow him as President. Hard to make that case now.

    So it won't happen.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    Actually, sod it, I will allow myself one photo - by me, from 2022 - of the Notorious Penis Chamber at Karahan Tepe. Mainly coz I’ll do anything to stop people talking about fricking ULEZ, also coz I just like writing “notorious penis chamber”

    See here



    What is this 12,000 year old room? WTF is it for?

    At the moment, the best archaeological guess is that it is an initiation room for young adult males. It would have been roofed and dark. The boys would have stepped through the small door on the left, the room would have been half full of liquid piped in using the circled water channel. The liquid might have been animal blood - so one archaeologist told me. It might have poured through the mouth of the weird “head” acting as a spout. Then some ritual - sacrifice? Circumcision? Baptism? - would have been enacted. The boy becomes a man - a hunter - and then returns to the “audience room” just outside

    This is 12,000 years old!!! Anyone who doesn’t find this seriously weird, brilliant, spooky, compelling and, yes, a *bit Graham Hancocky* is lacking a soul

    It does also back up his theory about there being a "forgotten" civilisation from about that time period
    There would inevitably be forgotten civilisations all over the word from about that time, so that isn't saying much.
    Er, what?? “Inevitably”???
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,829
    Leon said:

    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    Actually, sod it, I will allow myself one photo - by me, from 2022 - of the Notorious Penis Chamber at Karahan Tepe. Mainly coz I’ll do anything to stop people talking about fricking ULEZ, also coz I just like writing “notorious penis chamber”

    See here



    What is this 12,000 year old room? WTF is it for?

    At the moment, the best archaeological guess is that it is an initiation room for young adult males. It would have been roofed and dark. The boys would have stepped through the small door on the left, the room would have been half full of liquid piped in using the circled water channel. The liquid might have been animal blood - so one archaeologist told me. It might have poured through the mouth of the weird “head” acting as a spout. Then some ritual - sacrifice? Circumcision? Baptism? - would have been enacted. The boy becomes a man - a hunter - and then returns to the “audience room” just outside

    This is 12,000 years old!!! Anyone who doesn’t find this seriously weird, brilliant, spooky, compelling and, yes, a *bit Graham Hancocky* is lacking a soul

    It does also back up his theory about there being a "forgotten" civilisation from about that time period
    There would inevitably be forgotten civilisations all over the word from about that time, so that isn't saying much.
    Er, what?? “Inevitably”???
    The universality of culture in Homo sapiens, and the perishability of many materials (wood, bamboo, and so on).
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083
    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    Actually, sod it, I will allow myself one photo - by me, from 2022 - of the Notorious Penis Chamber at Karahan Tepe. Mainly coz I’ll do anything to stop people talking about fricking ULEZ, also coz I just like writing “notorious penis chamber”

    See here



    What is this 12,000 year old room? WTF is it for?

    At the moment, the best archaeological guess is that it is an initiation room for young adult males. It would have been roofed and dark. The boys would have stepped through the small door on the left, the room would have been half full of liquid piped in using the circled water channel. The liquid might have been animal blood - so one archaeologist told me. It might have poured through the mouth of the weird “head” acting as a spout. Then some ritual - sacrifice? Circumcision? Baptism? - would have been enacted. The boy becomes a man - a hunter - and then returns to the “audience room” just outside

    This is 12,000 years old!!! Anyone who doesn’t find this seriously weird, brilliant, spooky, compelling and, yes, a *bit Graham Hancocky* is lacking a soul

    It does also back up his theory about there being a "forgotten" civilisation from about that time period
    There would inevitably be forgotten civilisations all over the word from about that time, so that isn't saying much.
    Quite. This is a very dramatic example, but i doubt people exclude the possibility of more. We've rediscovered other forgotten ones before.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    Leon said:

    Actually, sod it, I will allow myself one photo - by me, from 2022 - of the Notorious Penis Chamber at Karahan Tepe. Mainly coz I’ll do anything to stop people talking about fricking ULEZ, also coz I just like writing “notorious penis chamber”

    See here



    What is this 12,000 year old room? WTF is it for?

    At the moment, the best archaeological guess is that it is an initiation room for young adult males. It would have been roofed and dark. The boys would have stepped through the small door on the left, the room would have been half full of liquid piped in using the circled water channel. The liquid might have been animal blood - so one archaeologist told me. It might have poured through the mouth of the weird “head” acting as a spout. Then some ritual - sacrifice? Circumcision? Baptism? - would have been enacted. The boy becomes a man - a hunter - and then returns to the “audience room” just outside

    This is 12,000 years old!!! Anyone who doesn’t find this seriously weird, brilliant, spooky, compelling and, yes, a *bit Graham Hancocky* is lacking a soul

    This is what people mean by speculative fiction.
    As opposed to archaeology.
  • CiceroCicero Posts: 3,078

    OT - I see the Air Traffic Control incident wasn't Russian hackers after all.

    It was the French putting in a badly formatted flight plan.

    Please don't tell me the input isn't properly checked/sanitised? Is there a Bobby Tables registered as a pilot?

    [ https://xkcd.com/327/ ]


    So cockup, not conspiracy.

    The last week in Estonia has seen the most intense cyber attacks by Russia for many months,

    Meanwhile, no matter that we know for sure that Russia launches intense attacks against high profile UK targets on a daily basis, absolutely none ever causes anything more than minor disruption.... no siree.

    Hmm... Really?

    I mean I appreciate that we do try and cool it with Putin, and do not want to admit points of weakness, but if Estonia, which is a superpower in cyber space and very well defended against Mordor, finds that it has been a tricky week, then I would tend not to believe the "It really isn´t Russia" we get anytime what looks like a blatant cyber attack occurs.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,717
     
    Nigelb said:

    ydoethur said:

    Presidents don’t often change their running mate, but it has happened.

    If Biden runs he runs with Harris. The optics of sacking her will play far, far worse than just keeping her.
    Ford believed ditching Rockefeller for Dole was one of the things that cost him the 1976 election.
    Largely irrelevant post facto rationalisation, I think ?

    His pardon of Nixon is what really cost him the election - and gaffes like this:
    "There is no Soviet domination of Eastern Europe, and there never will be under a Ford administration."
    Gaffes, solecisms and bloomers will characterise four more years of either Biden or Trump

  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,249
    Leon said:

    Actually, sod it, I will allow myself one photo - by me, from 2022 - of the Notorious Penis Chamber at Karahan Tepe. Mainly coz I’ll do anything to stop people talking about fricking ULEZ, also coz I just like writing “notorious penis chamber”

    See here



    What is this 12,000 year old room? WTF is it for?

    At the moment, the best archaeological guess is that it is an initiation room for young adult males. It would have been roofed and dark. The boys would have stepped through the small door on the left, the room would have been half full of liquid piped in using the circled water channel. The liquid might have been animal blood - so one archaeologist told me. It might have poured through the mouth of the weird “head” acting as a spout. Then some ritual - sacrifice? Circumcision? Baptism? - would have been enacted. The boy becomes a man - a hunter - and then returns to the “audience room” just outside

    This is 12,000 years old!!! Anyone who doesn’t find this seriously weird, brilliant, spooky, compelling and, yes, a *bit Graham Hancocky* is lacking a soul

    Liquid blood to half fill that space - how many cubic meters would that be? That would be a massive amount of food material to employ for any purpose
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    Actually, sod it, I will allow myself one photo - by me, from 2022 - of the Notorious Penis Chamber at Karahan Tepe. Mainly coz I’ll do anything to stop people talking about fricking ULEZ, also coz I just like writing “notorious penis chamber”

    See here



    What is this 12,000 year old room? WTF is it for?

    At the moment, the best archaeological guess is that it is an initiation room for young adult males. It would have been roofed and dark. The boys would have stepped through the small door on the left, the room would have been half full of liquid piped in using the circled water channel. The liquid might have been animal blood - so one archaeologist told me. It might have poured through the mouth of the weird “head” acting as a spout. Then some ritual - sacrifice? Circumcision? Baptism? - would have been enacted. The boy becomes a man - a hunter - and then returns to the “audience room” just outside

    This is 12,000 years old!!! Anyone who doesn’t find this seriously weird, brilliant, spooky, compelling and, yes, a *bit Graham Hancocky* is lacking a soul

    It does also back up his theory about there being a "forgotten" civilisation from about that time period
    There would inevitably be forgotten civilisations all over the word from about that time, so that isn't saying much.
    Talk us through “inevitably”. Because what you claim is “inevitable” is regarded as mad fringe archaeology by many if not most archaeologists. Where are these “inevitable” lost civilisations from 12,000+ years ago? Bolivia? Alaska? Antarctica?

    The entire reason Gobekli Tepe (and the new associated sites) is so unexpected, explosive and revolutionary is because it completely overturns the established consensus that agriculture came first (around 8,000 BC in west Eurasia, maybe a little earlier in east Asia) and only THEN could civilisations develop
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,717

    Leon said:

    Actually, sod it, I will allow myself one photo - by me, from 2022 - of the Notorious Penis Chamber at Karahan Tepe. Mainly coz I’ll do anything to stop people talking about fricking ULEZ, also coz I just like writing “notorious penis chamber”

    See here



    What is this 12,000 year old room? WTF is it for?

    At the moment, the best archaeological guess is that it is an initiation room for young adult males. It would have been roofed and dark. The boys would have stepped through the small door on the left, the room would have been half full of liquid piped in using the circled water channel. The liquid might have been animal blood - so one archaeologist told me. It might have poured through the mouth of the weird “head” acting as a spout. Then some ritual - sacrifice? Circumcision? Baptism? - would have been enacted. The boy becomes a man - a hunter - and then returns to the “audience room” just outside

    This is 12,000 years old!!! Anyone who doesn’t find this seriously weird, brilliant, spooky, compelling and, yes, a *bit Graham Hancocky* is lacking a soul

    Liquid blood to half fill that space - how many cubic meters would that be? That would be a massive amount of food material to employ for any purpose
    maybe diluted with water to run better? It's liable to congeal otherwise

  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 6,813
    edited August 2023
    Nigelb said:

    Pulpstar said:

    geoffw said:

    My own view is that there is a good chance Biden will decide to call it a day but rather than create a lame duck presidency for the final period he is waiting until the latest possible moment before announcing his intentions.
    Good point. Might he also change running mate if he does run?

    Less likely than him standing down. If there's one thing the upper echelons of the Democrat party are known for it's waiting your turn. The last nominee to truly disrupt that was probably Obama, who is/was an exceptional political talent. Betfair's favourite Democrat ex-Biden is err... Gavin Newsom. Gavin Newsom !
    Newsom has way too much baggage this cycle, I think. But depending on what happens in California over the next four years, a real chance next time around.

    It's hard to see the how the Democrats avoid a chaotic fight if Biden were to step down at the last minute.
    Harris has too poor a public image to get it unopposed, but there's no single obvious alternative - and a number of possibles.

    For that reason, if no other, I think Mike's theory is implausible.
    And for president, with an at least evens chance of being re-elected, to voluntarily step down after a single term seems equally unlikely.
    Kamala Harris is an interesting one. I do maintain that I suspect she has not been utilised to her full potential and has been given relatively duff assignments which hasn’t helped her image. That said, she really doesn’t help herself either. The weird word salads she spouts are cringeworthy. A far cry from the senator I remember conducting very effective and incisive cross-examinations. Maybe she is just one of those politicians who thrives on opposition rather than governing. It is odd.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    geoffw said:

     

    Nigelb said:

    ydoethur said:

    Presidents don’t often change their running mate, but it has happened.

    If Biden runs he runs with Harris. The optics of sacking her will play far, far worse than just keeping her.
    Ford believed ditching Rockefeller for Dole was one of the things that cost him the 1976 election.
    Largely irrelevant post facto rationalisation, I think ?

    His pardon of Nixon is what really cost him the election - and gaffes like this:
    "There is no Soviet domination of Eastern Europe, and there never will be under a Ford administration."
    Gaffes, solecisms and bloomers will characterise four more years of either Biden or Trump

    Sure.
    But the difference is that Biden has a record of genuine achievement both domestically and internationally.
    Ford had the US bicentenary celebrations.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,296
    Biden waiting until last minute seems a terrible strategy... if he isn't going to run he should say so early surely?

    I think Biden will rightly feel he can definitely beat Trump. Other candidates might not.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277

    Leon said:

    Actually, sod it, I will allow myself one photo - by me, from 2022 - of the Notorious Penis Chamber at Karahan Tepe. Mainly coz I’ll do anything to stop people talking about fricking ULEZ, also coz I just like writing “notorious penis chamber”

    See here



    What is this 12,000 year old room? WTF is it for?

    At the moment, the best archaeological guess is that it is an initiation room for young adult males. It would have been roofed and dark. The boys would have stepped through the small door on the left, the room would have been half full of liquid piped in using the circled water channel. The liquid might have been animal blood - so one archaeologist told me. It might have poured through the mouth of the weird “head” acting as a spout. Then some ritual - sacrifice? Circumcision? Baptism? - would have been enacted. The boy becomes a man - a hunter - and then returns to the “audience room” just outside

    This is 12,000 years old!!! Anyone who doesn’t find this seriously weird, brilliant, spooky, compelling and, yes, a *bit Graham Hancocky* is lacking a soul

    Liquid blood to half fill that space - how many cubic meters would that be? That would be a massive amount of food material to employ for any purpose
    I agree. Personally, I don’t believe it. I’m simply relating the opinion of one pro archaeologist at the site, given to me during my last visit

    On the other hand it could be true simply because the Tas Tepeler keep surprising on the upside. Just when you think it can’t get any weirder - it gets weirder
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,249
    Cicero said:

    OT - I see the Air Traffic Control incident wasn't Russian hackers after all.

    It was the French putting in a badly formatted flight plan.

    Please don't tell me the input isn't properly checked/sanitised? Is there a Bobby Tables registered as a pilot?

    [ https://xkcd.com/327/ ]


    So cockup, not conspiracy.

    The last week in Estonia has seen the most intense cyber attacks by Russia for many months,

    Meanwhile, no matter that we know for sure that Russia launches intense attacks against high profile UK targets on a daily basis, absolutely none ever causes anything more than minor disruption.... no siree.

    Hmm... Really?

    I mean I appreciate that we do try and cool it with Putin, and do not want to admit points of weakness, but if Estonia, which is a superpower in cyber space and very well defended against Mordor, finds that it has been a tricky week, then I would tend not to believe the "It really isn´t Russia" we get anytime what looks like a blatant cyber attack occurs.
    A vulnerability in the form of an invalid input would make a very elegant takedown.

    And quite deniable.
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 4,664
    Leon said:

    Actually, sod it, I will allow myself one photo - by me, from 2022 - of the Notorious Penis Chamber at Karahan Tepe. Mainly coz I’ll do anything to stop people talking about fricking ULEZ, also coz I just like writing “notorious penis chamber”

    See here



    What is this 12,000 year old room? WTF is it for?

    At the moment, the best archaeological guess is that it is an initiation room for young adult males. It would have been roofed and dark. The boys would have stepped through the small door on the left, the room would have been half full of liquid piped in using the circled water channel. The liquid might have been animal blood - so one archaeologist told me. It might have poured through the mouth of the weird “head” acting as a spout. Then some ritual - sacrifice? Circumcision? Baptism? - would have been enacted. The boy becomes a man - a hunter - and then returns to the “audience room” just outside

    This is 12,000 years old!!! Anyone who doesn’t find this seriously weird, brilliant, spooky, compelling and, yes, a *bit Graham Hancocky* is lacking a soul

    Water tank? Why does everything unexplained have to be for 'rituals' of some bizarre kind?

    A neolithic wooden trackway was discovered here in the Flatlands - it had been preserved in the peat. Quite a remarkable find really but as it was in a forgotten corner of the country not a lot was made of it.

    Apparently - despite the lack of any artifacts - archaeologists say it must have been a route to a 'ritual platform'. Not the rather obvious purpose of a track to get to the other side of a wet area...
  • MattW said:

    On topic. Morning all.

    An interesting question is whether Trump would go on the ballot in States with Democratic contol.

    Constitution 14th Amendment, Section 3, has been pointed out:

    Section 3.
    No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any state, who, having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any state legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of any state, to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof. But Congress may by a vote of two-thirds of each House, remove such disability.


    The way that reads, he needs a double 2/3 majority in Congress to get on the ballot.

    Firstly, that doesn't actually bar anyone from being President following insurrection. It refers to (i) Senators; (ii) Representatives; and (iii) ELECTORS OF President or VP - that is the electoral college. So this is about members of Congress seating other members of Congress and accepting electoral college voters (a rather hot topic). It very much does not cover the executive arm itself (President and VP).

    Secondly, it doesn't refer to getting on the ballot. So take a candidate for Senator who had committed some kind of treason offence. Absent anything in a state constitution, she could be on the ballot for Senate... it's just when it comes to being seated by Congress the following January if elected.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,249
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Actually, sod it, I will allow myself one photo - by me, from 2022 - of the Notorious Penis Chamber at Karahan Tepe. Mainly coz I’ll do anything to stop people talking about fricking ULEZ, also coz I just like writing “notorious penis chamber”

    See here



    What is this 12,000 year old room? WTF is it for?

    At the moment, the best archaeological guess is that it is an initiation room for young adult males. It would have been roofed and dark. The boys would have stepped through the small door on the left, the room would have been half full of liquid piped in using the circled water channel. The liquid might have been animal blood - so one archaeologist told me. It might have poured through the mouth of the weird “head” acting as a spout. Then some ritual - sacrifice? Circumcision? Baptism? - would have been enacted. The boy becomes a man - a hunter - and then returns to the “audience room” just outside

    This is 12,000 years old!!! Anyone who doesn’t find this seriously weird, brilliant, spooky, compelling and, yes, a *bit Graham Hancocky* is lacking a soul

    Liquid blood to half fill that space - how many cubic meters would that be? That would be a massive amount of food material to employ for any purpose
    I agree. Personally, I don’t believe it. I’m simply relating the opinion of one pro archaeologist at the site, given to me during my last visit

    On the other hand it could be true simply because the Tas Tepeler keep surprising on the upside. Just when you think it can’t get any weirder - it gets weirder
    There's been some quite funny experiments in getting archaeologists to interpret things, as a test, that they don't know what they are for. But other people know the function.

  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Actually, sod it, I will allow myself one photo - by me, from 2022 - of the Notorious Penis Chamber at Karahan Tepe. Mainly coz I’ll do anything to stop people talking about fricking ULEZ, also coz I just like writing “notorious penis chamber”

    See here



    What is this 12,000 year old room? WTF is it for?

    At the moment, the best archaeological guess is that it is an initiation room for young adult males. It would have been roofed and dark. The boys would have stepped through the small door on the left, the room would have been half full of liquid piped in using the circled water channel. The liquid might have been animal blood - so one archaeologist told me. It might have poured through the mouth of the weird “head” acting as a spout. Then some ritual - sacrifice? Circumcision? Baptism? - would have been enacted. The boy becomes a man - a hunter - and then returns to the “audience room” just outside

    This is 12,000 years old!!! Anyone who doesn’t find this seriously weird, brilliant, spooky, compelling and, yes, a *bit Graham Hancocky* is lacking a soul

    This is what people mean by speculative fiction.
    As opposed to archaeology.
    How to miss the point

    I am giving you the precise opinions of the professional archaeologists at Karahan/Gobekli Tepe

    These theories aren’t mine, they are the theories of the experts digging up the sites
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    kle4 said:

    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    Actually, sod it, I will allow myself one photo - by me, from 2022 - of the Notorious Penis Chamber at Karahan Tepe. Mainly coz I’ll do anything to stop people talking about fricking ULEZ, also coz I just like writing “notorious penis chamber”

    See here



    What is this 12,000 year old room? WTF is it for?

    At the moment, the best archaeological guess is that it is an initiation room for young adult males. It would have been roofed and dark. The boys would have stepped through the small door on the left, the room would have been half full of liquid piped in using the circled water channel. The liquid might have been animal blood - so one archaeologist told me. It might have poured through the mouth of the weird “head” acting as a spout. Then some ritual - sacrifice? Circumcision? Baptism? - would have been enacted. The boy becomes a man - a hunter - and then returns to the “audience room” just outside

    This is 12,000 years old!!! Anyone who doesn’t find this seriously weird, brilliant, spooky, compelling and, yes, a *bit Graham Hancocky* is lacking a soul

    It does also back up his theory about there being a "forgotten" civilisation from about that time period
    There would inevitably be forgotten civilisations all over the word from about that time, so that isn't saying much.
    Quite. This is a very dramatic example, but i doubt people exclude the possibility of more. We've rediscovered other forgotten ones before.
    Not from 10,000BC we haven’t. Nowhere near it
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,188
    MattW said:

    On topic. Morning all.

    An interesting question is whether Trump would go on the ballot in States with Democratic contol.

    Constitution 14th Amendment, Section 3, has been pointed out:

    Section 3.
    No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any state, who, having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any state legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of any state, to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof. But Congress may by a vote of two-thirds of each House, remove such disability.


    The way that reads, he needs a double 2/3 majority in Congress to get on the ballot.

    Republican states may try and ignore it; Democratic states may pay attention. And both will end up in the Supreme Court.

    Crucially (For betting purposes) it's not a bar to be the GOP nominee.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    Leon said:

    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    Actually, sod it, I will allow myself one photo - by me, from 2022 - of the Notorious Penis Chamber at Karahan Tepe. Mainly coz I’ll do anything to stop people talking about fricking ULEZ, also coz I just like writing “notorious penis chamber”

    See here



    What is this 12,000 year old room? WTF is it for?

    At the moment, the best archaeological guess is that it is an initiation room for young adult males. It would have been roofed and dark. The boys would have stepped through the small door on the left, the room would have been half full of liquid piped in using the circled water channel. The liquid might have been animal blood - so one archaeologist told me. It might have poured through the mouth of the weird “head” acting as a spout. Then some ritual - sacrifice? Circumcision? Baptism? - would have been enacted. The boy becomes a man - a hunter - and then returns to the “audience room” just outside

    This is 12,000 years old!!! Anyone who doesn’t find this seriously weird, brilliant, spooky, compelling and, yes, a *bit Graham Hancocky* is lacking a soul

    It does also back up his theory about there being a "forgotten" civilisation from about that time period
    There would inevitably be forgotten civilisations all over the word from about that time, so that isn't saying much.
    Talk us through “inevitably”. Because what you claim is “inevitable” is regarded as mad fringe archaeology by many if not most archaeologists. Where are these “inevitable” lost civilisations from 12,000+ years ago? Bolivia? Alaska? Antarctica?

    The entire reason Gobekli Tepe (and the new associated sites) is so unexpected, explosive and revolutionary is because it completely overturns the established consensus that agriculture came first (around 8,000 BC in west Eurasia, maybe a little earlier in east Asia) and only THEN could civilisations develop
    That really depends how you describe civilisation.

    Granted the recent finds are unpredicted, and impressive - but in the absence of writing, or primitive mathematics, or metallurgy (which would be genuinely remarkable discoveries), are they really the development of civilisation ?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083
    edited August 2023

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Actually, sod it, I will allow myself one photo - by me, from 2022 - of the Notorious Penis Chamber at Karahan Tepe. Mainly coz I’ll do anything to stop people talking about fricking ULEZ, also coz I just like writing “notorious penis chamber”

    See here



    What is this 12,000 year old room? WTF is it for?

    At the moment, the best archaeological guess is that it is an initiation room for young adult males. It would have been roofed and dark. The boys would have stepped through the small door on the left, the room would have been half full of liquid piped in using the circled water channel. The liquid might have been animal blood - so one archaeologist told me. It might have poured through the mouth of the weird “head” acting as a spout. Then some ritual - sacrifice? Circumcision? Baptism? - would have been enacted. The boy becomes a man - a hunter - and then returns to the “audience room” just outside

    This is 12,000 years old!!! Anyone who doesn’t find this seriously weird, brilliant, spooky, compelling and, yes, a *bit Graham Hancocky* is lacking a soul

    Liquid blood to half fill that space - how many cubic meters would that be? That would be a massive amount of food material to employ for any purpose
    I agree. Personally, I don’t believe it. I’m simply relating the opinion of one pro archaeologist at the site, given to me during my last visit

    On the other hand it could be true simply because the Tas Tepeler keep surprising on the upside. Just when you think it can’t get any weirder - it gets weirder
    There's been some quite funny experiments in getting archaeologists to interpret things, as a test, that they don't know what they are for. But other people know the function.

    Reminds me of the gag that future civilizations would assume the kellogs logo or McDonalds arch had great religious significance, or that football stadiums were temples.

    I recall one post apocalypse fantasy novel where a future church used what were clearly meant to be (non functioning) mobile phones as holy artefacts as they knew people used them to communicate with unseen forces so assumed they were about talking to the divine.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,829
    Leon said:

    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    Actually, sod it, I will allow myself one photo - by me, from 2022 - of the Notorious Penis Chamber at Karahan Tepe. Mainly coz I’ll do anything to stop people talking about fricking ULEZ, also coz I just like writing “notorious penis chamber”

    See here



    What is this 12,000 year old room? WTF is it for?

    At the moment, the best archaeological guess is that it is an initiation room for young adult males. It would have been roofed and dark. The boys would have stepped through the small door on the left, the room would have been half full of liquid piped in using the circled water channel. The liquid might have been animal blood - so one archaeologist told me. It might have poured through the mouth of the weird “head” acting as a spout. Then some ritual - sacrifice? Circumcision? Baptism? - would have been enacted. The boy becomes a man - a hunter - and then returns to the “audience room” just outside

    This is 12,000 years old!!! Anyone who doesn’t find this seriously weird, brilliant, spooky, compelling and, yes, a *bit Graham Hancocky* is lacking a soul

    It does also back up his theory about there being a "forgotten" civilisation from about that time period
    There would inevitably be forgotten civilisations all over the word from about that time, so that isn't saying much.
    Talk us through “inevitably”. Because what you claim is “inevitable” is regarded as mad fringe archaeology by many if not most archaeologists. Where are these “inevitable” lost civilisations from 12,000+ years ago? Bolivia? Alaska? Antarctica?

    The entire reason Gobekli Tepe (and the new associated sites) is so unexpected, explosive and revolutionary is because it completely overturns the established consensus that agriculture came first (around 8,000 BC in west Eurasia, maybe a little earlier in east Asia) and only THEN could civilisations develop
    Who said anything about agriculture? Hunter-gatherers grind corn and plants, too.

    Who needs it for civilisation? Some pretty strong hunter-gatherer cultures, especially in rich areas - NW North America salmon rivers.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277

    Leon said:

    Actually, sod it, I will allow myself one photo - by me, from 2022 - of the Notorious Penis Chamber at Karahan Tepe. Mainly coz I’ll do anything to stop people talking about fricking ULEZ, also coz I just like writing “notorious penis chamber”

    See here



    What is this 12,000 year old room? WTF is it for?

    At the moment, the best archaeological guess is that it is an initiation room for young adult males. It would have been roofed and dark. The boys would have stepped through the small door on the left, the room would have been half full of liquid piped in using the circled water channel. The liquid might have been animal blood - so one archaeologist told me. It might have poured through the mouth of the weird “head” acting as a spout. Then some ritual - sacrifice? Circumcision? Baptism? - would have been enacted. The boy becomes a man - a hunter - and then returns to the “audience room” just outside

    This is 12,000 years old!!! Anyone who doesn’t find this seriously weird, brilliant, spooky, compelling and, yes, a *bit Graham Hancocky* is lacking a soul

    Water tank? Why does everything unexplained have to be for 'rituals' of some bizarre kind?

    A neolithic wooden trackway was discovered here in the Flatlands - it had been preserved in the peat. Quite a remarkable find really but as it was in a forgotten corner of the country not a lot was made of it.

    Apparently - despite the lack of any artifacts - archaeologists say it must have been a route to a 'ritual platform'. Not the rather obvious purpose of a track to get to the other side of a wet area...
    Most archaeologists agree that the Tas Tepeler are sacred sites. Stone circles, after all

    There is near-zero evidence of human habitation at Gobekli Tepe (there is evidence at the other Tas Tepeler). Why build it? It is surely a temple; it is also, it seems, aligned astronomically

    Some kind of penis worshipping hunter-warrior cult (with human sacrifice?) is the best guess at the moment
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    Pulpstar said:

    geoffw said:

    My own view is that there is a good chance Biden will decide to call it a day but rather than create a lame duck presidency for the final period he is waiting until the latest possible moment before announcing his intentions.
    Good point. Might he also change running mate if he does run?

    Less likely than him standing down. If there's one thing the upper echelons of the Democrat party are known for it's waiting your turn. The last nominee to truly disrupt that was probably Obama, who is/was an exceptional political talent. Betfair's favourite Democrat ex-Biden is err... Gavin Newsom. Gavin Newsom !
    Interesting article on Newsom.
    I'm not quite sure what to make of it - since it seems fairly clear he was aware of its existence.
    https://www.politico.com/news/2023/08/18/san-francisco-gavin-newsom-homeless-00111777
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083
    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    Actually, sod it, I will allow myself one photo - by me, from 2022 - of the Notorious Penis Chamber at Karahan Tepe. Mainly coz I’ll do anything to stop people talking about fricking ULEZ, also coz I just like writing “notorious penis chamber”

    See here



    What is this 12,000 year old room? WTF is it for?

    At the moment, the best archaeological guess is that it is an initiation room for young adult males. It would have been roofed and dark. The boys would have stepped through the small door on the left, the room would have been half full of liquid piped in using the circled water channel. The liquid might have been animal blood - so one archaeologist told me. It might have poured through the mouth of the weird “head” acting as a spout. Then some ritual - sacrifice? Circumcision? Baptism? - would have been enacted. The boy becomes a man - a hunter - and then returns to the “audience room” just outside

    This is 12,000 years old!!! Anyone who doesn’t find this seriously weird, brilliant, spooky, compelling and, yes, a *bit Graham Hancocky* is lacking a soul

    It does also back up his theory about there being a "forgotten" civilisation from about that time period
    There would inevitably be forgotten civilisations all over the word from about that time, so that isn't saying much.
    Talk us through “inevitably”. Because what you claim is “inevitable” is regarded as mad fringe archaeology by many if not most archaeologists. Where are these “inevitable” lost civilisations from 12,000+ years ago? Bolivia? Alaska? Antarctica?

    The entire reason Gobekli Tepe (and the new associated sites) is so unexpected, explosive and revolutionary is because it completely overturns the established consensus that agriculture came first (around 8,000 BC in west Eurasia, maybe a little earlier in east Asia) and only THEN could civilisations develop
    That really depends how you describe civilisation.

    Granted the recent finds are unpredicted, and impressive - but in the absence of writing, or primitive mathematics, or metallurgy (which would be genuinely remarkable discoveries), are they really the development of civilisation ?
    I'd include any mass construction as being indicative of civilisation. Example of large scale organisation and complexity.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Actually, sod it, I will allow myself one photo - by me, from 2022 - of the Notorious Penis Chamber at Karahan Tepe. Mainly coz I’ll do anything to stop people talking about fricking ULEZ, also coz I just like writing “notorious penis chamber”

    See here



    What is this 12,000 year old room? WTF is it for?

    At the moment, the best archaeological guess is that it is an initiation room for young adult males. It would have been roofed and dark. The boys would have stepped through the small door on the left, the room would have been half full of liquid piped in using the circled water channel. The liquid might have been animal blood - so one archaeologist told me. It might have poured through the mouth of the weird “head” acting as a spout. Then some ritual - sacrifice? Circumcision? Baptism? - would have been enacted. The boy becomes a man - a hunter - and then returns to the “audience room” just outside

    This is 12,000 years old!!! Anyone who doesn’t find this seriously weird, brilliant, spooky, compelling and, yes, a *bit Graham Hancocky* is lacking a soul

    Liquid blood to half fill that space - how many cubic meters would that be? That would be a massive amount of food material to employ for any purpose
    I agree. Personally, I don’t believe it. I’m simply relating the opinion of one pro archaeologist at the site, given to me during my last visit

    On the other hand it could be true simply because the Tas Tepeler keep surprising on the upside. Just when you think it can’t get any weirder - it gets weirder
    There's been some quite funny experiments in getting archaeologists to interpret things, as a test, that they don't know what they are for. But other people know the function.

    Reminds me of the gag that future civilizations would assume the kellogs logo or McDonalds arch had great religious significance, or that football stadiums were temples.

    I recall one post apocalypse fantasy novel where a future church used what were clearly meant to be (non functioning) mobile phones as holy artefacts as they knew people used them to communicate with unseen forces so assumes they were about talking to the divine.
    It tends to be the default in ancient history, too (where there's massively more evidence than for archaeological prehistory) to ascribe a religious or ritual motive for anything which can't otherwise be readily explained.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083
    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    Actually, sod it, I will allow myself one photo - by me, from 2022 - of the Notorious Penis Chamber at Karahan Tepe. Mainly coz I’ll do anything to stop people talking about fricking ULEZ, also coz I just like writing “notorious penis chamber”

    See here



    What is this 12,000 year old room? WTF is it for?

    At the moment, the best archaeological guess is that it is an initiation room for young adult males. It would have been roofed and dark. The boys would have stepped through the small door on the left, the room would have been half full of liquid piped in using the circled water channel. The liquid might have been animal blood - so one archaeologist told me. It might have poured through the mouth of the weird “head” acting as a spout. Then some ritual - sacrifice? Circumcision? Baptism? - would have been enacted. The boy becomes a man - a hunter - and then returns to the “audience room” just outside

    This is 12,000 years old!!! Anyone who doesn’t find this seriously weird, brilliant, spooky, compelling and, yes, a *bit Graham Hancocky* is lacking a soul

    It does also back up his theory about there being a "forgotten" civilisation from about that time period
    There would inevitably be forgotten civilisations all over the word from about that time, so that isn't saying much.
    Quite. This is a very dramatic example, but i doubt people exclude the possibility of more. We've rediscovered other forgotten ones before.
    Not from 10,000BC we haven’t. Nowhere near it
    That's why I said dramatic. But people don't rule out others, we just haven't got the evidence for anything concrete. The theorising is fine.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,249
    Nigelb said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Actually, sod it, I will allow myself one photo - by me, from 2022 - of the Notorious Penis Chamber at Karahan Tepe. Mainly coz I’ll do anything to stop people talking about fricking ULEZ, also coz I just like writing “notorious penis chamber”

    See here



    What is this 12,000 year old room? WTF is it for?

    At the moment, the best archaeological guess is that it is an initiation room for young adult males. It would have been roofed and dark. The boys would have stepped through the small door on the left, the room would have been half full of liquid piped in using the circled water channel. The liquid might have been animal blood - so one archaeologist told me. It might have poured through the mouth of the weird “head” acting as a spout. Then some ritual - sacrifice? Circumcision? Baptism? - would have been enacted. The boy becomes a man - a hunter - and then returns to the “audience room” just outside

    This is 12,000 years old!!! Anyone who doesn’t find this seriously weird, brilliant, spooky, compelling and, yes, a *bit Graham Hancocky* is lacking a soul

    Liquid blood to half fill that space - how many cubic meters would that be? That would be a massive amount of food material to employ for any purpose
    I agree. Personally, I don’t believe it. I’m simply relating the opinion of one pro archaeologist at the site, given to me during my last visit

    On the other hand it could be true simply because the Tas Tepeler keep surprising on the upside. Just when you think it can’t get any weirder - it gets weirder
    There's been some quite funny experiments in getting archaeologists to interpret things, as a test, that they don't know what they are for. But other people know the function.

    Reminds me of the gag that future civilizations would assume the kellogs logo or McDonalds arch had great religious significance, or that football stadiums were temples.

    I recall one post apocalypse fantasy novel where a future church used what were clearly meant to be (non functioning) mobile phones as holy artefacts as they knew people used them to communicate with unseen forces so assumes they were about talking to the divine.
    It tends to be the default in ancient history, too (where there's massively more evidence than for archaeological prehistory) to ascribe a religious or ritual motive for anything which can't otherwise be readily explained.
    Rock concerts are obviously religious ceremonies.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    kle4 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    Actually, sod it, I will allow myself one photo - by me, from 2022 - of the Notorious Penis Chamber at Karahan Tepe. Mainly coz I’ll do anything to stop people talking about fricking ULEZ, also coz I just like writing “notorious penis chamber”

    See here



    What is this 12,000 year old room? WTF is it for?

    At the moment, the best archaeological guess is that it is an initiation room for young adult males. It would have been roofed and dark. The boys would have stepped through the small door on the left, the room would have been half full of liquid piped in using the circled water channel. The liquid might have been animal blood - so one archaeologist told me. It might have poured through the mouth of the weird “head” acting as a spout. Then some ritual - sacrifice? Circumcision? Baptism? - would have been enacted. The boy becomes a man - a hunter - and then returns to the “audience room” just outside

    This is 12,000 years old!!! Anyone who doesn’t find this seriously weird, brilliant, spooky, compelling and, yes, a *bit Graham Hancocky* is lacking a soul

    It does also back up his theory about there being a "forgotten" civilisation from about that time period
    There would inevitably be forgotten civilisations all over the word from about that time, so that isn't saying much.
    Talk us through “inevitably”. Because what you claim is “inevitable” is regarded as mad fringe archaeology by many if not most archaeologists. Where are these “inevitable” lost civilisations from 12,000+ years ago? Bolivia? Alaska? Antarctica?

    The entire reason Gobekli Tepe (and the new associated sites) is so unexpected, explosive and revolutionary is because it completely overturns the established consensus that agriculture came first (around 8,000 BC in west Eurasia, maybe a little earlier in east Asia) and only THEN could civilisations develop
    That really depends how you describe civilisation.

    Granted the recent finds are unpredicted, and impressive - but in the absence of writing, or primitive mathematics, or metallurgy (which would be genuinely remarkable discoveries), are they really the development of civilisation ?
    I'd include any mass construction as being indicative of civilisation. Example of large scale organisation and complexity.
    12-30 stone built temple towns (or more) with complex sacred/domestic architecture and piped water, etc, certainly fit the bill

    Also they had massive vats for brewing beer. In 10,000 BC. I’m calling that a “civilisation”

    “From this evidence, researchers conclude that Göbekli Tepe was a vast festival site where Stone Age men and women came to feast and to drink beer by the trough-load.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/sep/01/social-drinking-moderation-health-risks
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 4,664
    edited August 2023
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Actually, sod it, I will allow myself one photo - by me, from 2022 - of the Notorious Penis Chamber at Karahan Tepe. Mainly coz I’ll do anything to stop people talking about fricking ULEZ, also coz I just like writing “notorious penis chamber”

    See here



    What is this 12,000 year old room? WTF is it for?

    At the moment, the best archaeological guess is that it is an initiation room for young adult males. It would have been roofed and dark. The boys would have stepped through the small door on the left, the room would have been half full of liquid piped in using the circled water channel. The liquid might have been animal blood - so one archaeologist told me. It might have poured through the mouth of the weird “head” acting as a spout. Then some ritual - sacrifice? Circumcision? Baptism? - would have been enacted. The boy becomes a man - a hunter - and then returns to the “audience room” just outside

    This is 12,000 years old!!! Anyone who doesn’t find this seriously weird, brilliant, spooky, compelling and, yes, a *bit Graham Hancocky* is lacking a soul

    Water tank? Why does everything unexplained have to be for 'rituals' of some bizarre kind?

    A neolithic wooden trackway was discovered here in the Flatlands - it had been preserved in the peat. Quite a remarkable find really but as it was in a forgotten corner of the country not a lot was made of it.

    Apparently - despite the lack of any artifacts - archaeologists say it must have been a route to a 'ritual platform'. Not the rather obvious purpose of a track to get to the other side of a wet area...
    Most archaeologists agree that the Tas Tepeler are sacred sites. Stone circles, after all

    There is near-zero evidence of human habitation at Gobekli Tepe (there is evidence at the other Tas Tepeler). Why build it? It is surely a temple; it is also, it seems, aligned astronomically

    Some kind of penis worshipping hunter-warrior cult (with human sacrifice?) is the best guess at the moment
    I admit to knowing almost nothing about these sites other than that they exist.

    But how do you build a temple without living there, at least for some of the time?

    And if you know how to build things, why not build houses?
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,075
    edited August 2023
    geoffw said:

    Leon said:

    Actually, sod it, I will allow myself one photo - by me, from 2022 - of the Notorious Penis Chamber at Karahan Tepe. Mainly coz I’ll do anything to stop people talking about fricking ULEZ, also coz I just like writing “notorious penis chamber”

    See here



    What is this 12,000 year old room? WTF is it for?

    At the moment, the best archaeological guess is that it is an initiation room for young adult males. It would have been roofed and dark. The boys would have stepped through the small door on the left, the room would have been half full of liquid piped in using the circled water channel. The liquid might have been animal blood - so one archaeologist told me. It might have poured through the mouth of the weird “head” acting as a spout. Then some ritual - sacrifice? Circumcision? Baptism? - would have been enacted. The boy becomes a man - a hunter - and then returns to the “audience room” just outside

    This is 12,000 years old!!! Anyone who doesn’t find this seriously weird, brilliant, spooky, compelling and, yes, a *bit Graham Hancocky* is lacking a soul

    Liquid blood to half fill that space - how many cubic meters would that be? That would be a massive amount of food material to employ for any purpose
    maybe diluted with water to run better? It's liable to congeal otherwise
    So we have 12,000 year old black pudding? The plot thickens. As indeed does the bl[that's enough - Ed]
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,373
    Leon said:

    Actually, sod it, I will allow myself one photo - by me, from 2022 - of the Notorious Penis Chamber at Karahan Tepe. Mainly coz I’ll do anything to stop people talking about fricking ULEZ, also coz I just like writing “notorious penis chamber”

    See here



    What is this 12,000 year old room? WTF is it for?

    At the moment, the best archaeological guess is that it is an initiation room for young adult males. It would have been roofed and dark. The boys would have stepped through the small door on the left, the room would have been half full of liquid piped in using the circled water channel. The liquid might have been animal blood - so one archaeologist told me. It might have poured through the mouth of the weird “head” acting as a spout. Then some ritual - sacrifice? Circumcision? Baptism? - would have been enacted. The boy becomes a man - a hunter - and then returns to the “audience room” just outside

    This is 12,000 years old!!! Anyone who doesn’t find this seriously weird, brilliant, spooky, compelling and, yes, a *bit Graham Hancocky* is lacking a soul

    It is an ancient prophecy.

    The room was called Common Tawree.

    12,000 years from now, they were saying, there will be a room full of Common Tawrees, and they will all be massive dicks.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,249
    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    Actually, sod it, I will allow myself one photo - by me, from 2022 - of the Notorious Penis Chamber at Karahan Tepe. Mainly coz I’ll do anything to stop people talking about fricking ULEZ, also coz I just like writing “notorious penis chamber”

    See here



    What is this 12,000 year old room? WTF is it for?

    At the moment, the best archaeological guess is that it is an initiation room for young adult males. It would have been roofed and dark. The boys would have stepped through the small door on the left, the room would have been half full of liquid piped in using the circled water channel. The liquid might have been animal blood - so one archaeologist told me. It might have poured through the mouth of the weird “head” acting as a spout. Then some ritual - sacrifice? Circumcision? Baptism? - would have been enacted. The boy becomes a man - a hunter - and then returns to the “audience room” just outside

    This is 12,000 years old!!! Anyone who doesn’t find this seriously weird, brilliant, spooky, compelling and, yes, a *bit Graham Hancocky* is lacking a soul

    It does also back up his theory about there being a "forgotten" civilisation from about that time period
    There would inevitably be forgotten civilisations all over the word from about that time, so that isn't saying much.
    Talk us through “inevitably”. Because what you claim is “inevitable” is regarded as mad fringe archaeology by many if not most archaeologists. Where are these “inevitable” lost civilisations from 12,000+ years ago? Bolivia? Alaska? Antarctica?

    The entire reason Gobekli Tepe (and the new associated sites) is so unexpected, explosive and revolutionary is because it completely overturns the established consensus that agriculture came first (around 8,000 BC in west Eurasia, maybe a little earlier in east Asia) and only THEN could civilisations develop
    That really depends how you describe civilisation.

    Granted the recent finds are unpredicted, and impressive - but in the absence of writing, or primitive mathematics, or metallurgy (which would be genuinely remarkable discoveries), are they really the development of civilisation ?
    I'd include any mass construction as being indicative of civilisation. Example of large scale organisation and complexity.
    12-30 stone built temple towns (or more) with complex sacred/domestic architecture and piped water, etc, certainly fit the bill

    Also they had massive vats for brewing beer. In 10,000 BC. I’m calling that a “civilisation”

    “From this evidence, researchers conclude that Göbekli Tepe was a vast festival site where Stone Age men and women came to feast and to drink beer by the trough-load.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/sep/01/social-drinking-moderation-health-risks
    They discovered Music With Rocks In it.

    The cave with pillars is actually a mosh pit.

    I'll start writing the paper now.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,373

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    Actually, sod it, I will allow myself one photo - by me, from 2022 - of the Notorious Penis Chamber at Karahan Tepe. Mainly coz I’ll do anything to stop people talking about fricking ULEZ, also coz I just like writing “notorious penis chamber”

    See here



    What is this 12,000 year old room? WTF is it for?

    At the moment, the best archaeological guess is that it is an initiation room for young adult males. It would have been roofed and dark. The boys would have stepped through the small door on the left, the room would have been half full of liquid piped in using the circled water channel. The liquid might have been animal blood - so one archaeologist told me. It might have poured through the mouth of the weird “head” acting as a spout. Then some ritual - sacrifice? Circumcision? Baptism? - would have been enacted. The boy becomes a man - a hunter - and then returns to the “audience room” just outside

    This is 12,000 years old!!! Anyone who doesn’t find this seriously weird, brilliant, spooky, compelling and, yes, a *bit Graham Hancocky* is lacking a soul

    It does also back up his theory about there being a "forgotten" civilisation from about that time period
    There would inevitably be forgotten civilisations all over the word from about that time, so that isn't saying much.
    Talk us through “inevitably”. Because what you claim is “inevitable” is regarded as mad fringe archaeology by many if not most archaeologists. Where are these “inevitable” lost civilisations from 12,000+ years ago? Bolivia? Alaska? Antarctica?

    The entire reason Gobekli Tepe (and the new associated sites) is so unexpected, explosive and revolutionary is because it completely overturns the established consensus that agriculture came first (around 8,000 BC in west Eurasia, maybe a little earlier in east Asia) and only THEN could civilisations develop
    That really depends how you describe civilisation.

    Granted the recent finds are unpredicted, and impressive - but in the absence of writing, or primitive mathematics, or metallurgy (which would be genuinely remarkable discoveries), are they really the development of civilisation ?
    I'd include any mass construction as being indicative of civilisation. Example of large scale organisation and complexity.
    12-30 stone built temple towns (or more) with complex sacred/domestic architecture and piped water, etc, certainly fit the bill

    Also they had massive vats for brewing beer. In 10,000 BC. I’m calling that a “civilisation”

    “From this evidence, researchers conclude that Göbekli Tepe was a vast festival site where Stone Age men and women came to feast and to drink beer by the trough-load.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/sep/01/social-drinking-moderation-health-risks
    They discovered Music With Rocks In it.

    The cave with pillars is actually a mosh pit.

    I'll start writing the paper now.
    The music was hard.
This discussion has been closed.