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The NHS waiting list reaches new high – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,151
edited August 2023 in General
imageThe NHS waiting list reaches new high – politicalbetting.com

The big NHS news this afternoon is that the NHS waiting list in England is now almost at 8m – the highest level yet.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,744
    So easy to be first these days! TSE must have his keys taken away!
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,744
    On topic - the NHS is clearly broken. It's mainly broken from inefficiency. Oddly that's good, as we can just sack all the oafs. However the picture is clear and we can't run away from it. Health costs far more than we currently wish to spend.
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 4,925
    Waiting lists can only get higher over the winter. It could be this time next year before they start falling - if they do even then. Another nail in the Tories coffin.
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 4,925
    Omnium said:

    On topic - the NHS is clearly broken. It's mainly broken from inefficiency. Oddly that's good, as we can just sack all the oafs. However the picture is clear and we can't run away from it. Health costs far more than we currently wish to spend.

    Is it broken enough for voters to be willing to pay more tax if that is necessary to repair it?
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,744

    Omnium said:

    On topic - the NHS is clearly broken. It's mainly broken from inefficiency. Oddly that's good, as we can just sack all the oafs. However the picture is clear and we can't run away from it. Health costs far more than we currently wish to spend.

    Is it broken enough for voters to be willing to pay more tax if that is necessary to repair it?
    I'm sure that pretty much everyone would be prepared to pay more. However what do we get for our money as it stands? It's not great.

    If I suggested to you that the NHS was throwing away 50% of it's funding in being useless would you disagree? I suspect not.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,485
    Omnium said:

    On topic - the NHS is clearly broken. It's mainly broken from inefficiency. Oddly that's good, as we can just sack all the oafs. However the picture is clear and we can't run away from it. Health costs far more than we currently wish to spend.

    I'm not disagreeing, but what is your data that shows that the NHS is more inefficient than alternative health systems?
  • Omnium said:

    On topic - the NHS is clearly broken. It's mainly broken from inefficiency. Oddly that's good, as we can just sack all the oafs. However the picture is clear and we can't run away from it. Health costs far more than we currently wish to spend.

    Is it broken enough for voters to be willing to pay more tax if that is necessary to repair it?
    The realistic answer is that the choice now is slightly more tax and substantially worse services (Sunak) or a lot more tax and slightly worse services (Starmer).

    And yes, reform and reengineering can help in the medium term, but they will cost upfront.

    Not fun, but the alternative pathways diverged years ago. We've had the bender, now it's time for the hangover.

    And yes, it is being so cheerful that keeps me going.
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 4,925
    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    On topic - the NHS is clearly broken. It's mainly broken from inefficiency. Oddly that's good, as we can just sack all the oafs. However the picture is clear and we can't run away from it. Health costs far more than we currently wish to spend.

    Is it broken enough for voters to be willing to pay more tax if that is necessary to repair it?
    I'm sure that pretty much everyone would be prepared to pay more. However what do we get for our money as it stands? It's not great.

    If I suggested to you that the NHS was throwing away 50% of it's funding in being useless would you disagree? I suspect not.
    Can patients wait for the recommendations of the necessary enquiry to be implemented?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,575
    Interesting rumours about from friends of friends that Sunak is getting frustrated at Barclay refusing to negotiate with the BMA, and negotiating direct.

    Concessions on other areas of allowances, and of medical student debt etc so as to pretend that the headline figure is unchanged.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,744

    Omnium said:

    On topic - the NHS is clearly broken. It's mainly broken from inefficiency. Oddly that's good, as we can just sack all the oafs. However the picture is clear and we can't run away from it. Health costs far more than we currently wish to spend.

    I'm not disagreeing, but what is your data that shows that the NHS is more inefficient than alternative health systems?
    None whatsoever. I could probably find some data, but that'd be pointless. Endless press reports and personal experience indicate that the NHS is inefficient.

    Comparisons are irrelevant when most of the staff are spending most of their time twiddling their thumbs. (I have no data on this)
  • Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    On topic - the NHS is clearly broken. It's mainly broken from inefficiency. Oddly that's good, as we can just sack all the oafs. However the picture is clear and we can't run away from it. Health costs far more than we currently wish to spend.

    Is it broken enough for voters to be willing to pay more tax if that is necessary to repair it?
    I'm sure that pretty much everyone would be prepared to pay more. However what do we get for our money as it stands? It's not great.

    If I suggested to you that the NHS was throwing away 50% of it's funding in being useless would you disagree? I suspect not.
    If that's the case, we can run a basically OK health system on 5-6 percent of GDP, rather than 10-12 percent.

    Does anywhere else in the world manage that?
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,744

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    On topic - the NHS is clearly broken. It's mainly broken from inefficiency. Oddly that's good, as we can just sack all the oafs. However the picture is clear and we can't run away from it. Health costs far more than we currently wish to spend.

    Is it broken enough for voters to be willing to pay more tax if that is necessary to repair it?
    I'm sure that pretty much everyone would be prepared to pay more. However what do we get for our money as it stands? It's not great.

    If I suggested to you that the NHS was throwing away 50% of it's funding in being useless would you disagree? I suspect not.
    Can patients wait for the recommendations of the necessary enquiry to be implemented?
    Of course not. There are two ways out of the current miasma. Spend to just address the numbers, or spend to fix the problem.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,744

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    On topic - the NHS is clearly broken. It's mainly broken from inefficiency. Oddly that's good, as we can just sack all the oafs. However the picture is clear and we can't run away from it. Health costs far more than we currently wish to spend.

    Is it broken enough for voters to be willing to pay more tax if that is necessary to repair it?
    I'm sure that pretty much everyone would be prepared to pay more. However what do we get for our money as it stands? It's not great.

    If I suggested to you that the NHS was throwing away 50% of it's funding in being useless would you disagree? I suspect not.
    If that's the case, we can run a basically OK health system on 5-6 percent of GDP, rather than 10-12 percent.

    Does anywhere else in the world manage that?
    Well you know the arguments about how the US or Thailand or Korea operate.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,485
    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    On topic - the NHS is clearly broken. It's mainly broken from inefficiency. Oddly that's good, as we can just sack all the oafs. However the picture is clear and we can't run away from it. Health costs far more than we currently wish to spend.

    I'm not disagreeing, but what is your data that shows that the NHS is more inefficient than alternative health systems?
    None whatsoever. I could probably find some data, but that'd be pointless. Endless press reports and personal experience indicate that the NHS is inefficient.

    Comparisons are irrelevant when most of the staff are spending most of their time twiddling their thumbs. (I have no data on this)
    The NHS has millions of 'customers' per year. If you get a 0.1% 'problem' rate, that's 1,000 'problems' per million. And that's a lot of stories. But I'd also argue that, given the way human physiology and problems are, that 0.1 'problems' are unrealistically low.

    Comparing healthcare systems is far from easy, but anecdotes and press reports tend to veer towards poor experiences. "The NHS fixed my issue" is not a headline. "I had the wrong leg amputated!" is.

    This does not mean that the NHS is efficient; just that *perceptions* of efficiency are bound to be wildly inaccurate.
  • MiklosvarMiklosvar Posts: 1,855

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    On topic - the NHS is clearly broken. It's mainly broken from inefficiency. Oddly that's good, as we can just sack all the oafs. However the picture is clear and we can't run away from it. Health costs far more than we currently wish to spend.

    Is it broken enough for voters to be willing to pay more tax if that is necessary to repair it?
    I'm sure that pretty much everyone would be prepared to pay more. However what do we get for our money as it stands? It's not great.

    If I suggested to you that the NHS was throwing away 50% of it's funding in being useless would you disagree? I suspect not.
    If that's the case, we can run a basically OK health system on 5-6 percent of GDP, rather than 10-12 percent.

    Does anywhere else in the world manage that?
    Doesn't follow. We can run the current utterly garbage system on 5-6% or redirect the waste half and have a decent system for what anyone else spends

    The rule of thumb for elderly whiteys in Kenya is to have £250k set aside for healthcare. Also true of the UK if you happen to have it.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,744

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    On topic - the NHS is clearly broken. It's mainly broken from inefficiency. Oddly that's good, as we can just sack all the oafs. However the picture is clear and we can't run away from it. Health costs far more than we currently wish to spend.

    I'm not disagreeing, but what is your data that shows that the NHS is more inefficient than alternative health systems?
    None whatsoever. I could probably find some data, but that'd be pointless. Endless press reports and personal experience indicate that the NHS is inefficient.

    Comparisons are irrelevant when most of the staff are spending most of their time twiddling their thumbs. (I have no data on this)
    The NHS has millions of 'customers' per year. If you get a 0.1% 'problem' rate, that's 1,000 'problems' per million. And that's a lot of stories. But I'd also argue that, given the way human physiology and problems are, that 0.1 'problems' are unrealistically low.

    Comparing healthcare systems is far from easy, but anecdotes and press reports tend to veer towards poor experiences. "The NHS fixed my issue" is not a headline. "I had the wrong leg amputated!" is.

    This does not mean that the NHS is efficient; just that *perceptions* of efficiency are bound to be wildly inaccurate.
    Efficiency and efficacy are quite different things.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,485
    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    On topic - the NHS is clearly broken. It's mainly broken from inefficiency. Oddly that's good, as we can just sack all the oafs. However the picture is clear and we can't run away from it. Health costs far more than we currently wish to spend.

    I'm not disagreeing, but what is your data that shows that the NHS is more inefficient than alternative health systems?
    None whatsoever. I could probably find some data, but that'd be pointless. Endless press reports and personal experience indicate that the NHS is inefficient.

    Comparisons are irrelevant when most of the staff are spending most of their time twiddling their thumbs. (I have no data on this)
    The NHS has millions of 'customers' per year. If you get a 0.1% 'problem' rate, that's 1,000 'problems' per million. And that's a lot of stories. But I'd also argue that, given the way human physiology and problems are, that 0.1 'problems' are unrealistically low.

    Comparing healthcare systems is far from easy, but anecdotes and press reports tend to veer towards poor experiences. "The NHS fixed my issue" is not a headline. "I had the wrong leg amputated!" is.

    This does not mean that the NHS is efficient; just that *perceptions* of efficiency are bound to be wildly inaccurate.
    Efficiency and efficacy are quite different things.
    Indeed. But again... data.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 62,962
    edited August 2023
    The NHS is devolved and it is always the English NHS that is criticised, when in truth all the devolved nations are experiencing the same issues albeit Wales is run by Labour and Scotland by the SNP/Greens

    Indeed Drakeford indicated yesterday of an overspend of nearly 1 billion in Wales, and suggested cuts will be needed in the Wales NHS and Education, notwithstanding that Wales receives £1.20 per head from the treasury compared to £1 in England

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-65616395
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,744

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    On topic - the NHS is clearly broken. It's mainly broken from inefficiency. Oddly that's good, as we can just sack all the oafs. However the picture is clear and we can't run away from it. Health costs far more than we currently wish to spend.

    I'm not disagreeing, but what is your data that shows that the NHS is more inefficient than alternative health systems?
    None whatsoever. I could probably find some data, but that'd be pointless. Endless press reports and personal experience indicate that the NHS is inefficient.

    Comparisons are irrelevant when most of the staff are spending most of their time twiddling their thumbs. (I have no data on this)
    The NHS has millions of 'customers' per year. If you get a 0.1% 'problem' rate, that's 1,000 'problems' per million. And that's a lot of stories. But I'd also argue that, given the way human physiology and problems are, that 0.1 'problems' are unrealistically low.

    Comparing healthcare systems is far from easy, but anecdotes and press reports tend to veer towards poor experiences. "The NHS fixed my issue" is not a headline. "I had the wrong leg amputated!" is.

    This does not mean that the NHS is efficient; just that *perceptions* of efficiency are bound to be wildly inaccurate.
    Efficiency and efficacy are quite different things.
    Indeed. But again... data.
    Just my impressions. Data sample of 1 plus a little more from others.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,281
    I'm not generally a fan of term limits, or other restrictions on who the electorate are permitted to elect, but having a bar on any direct family members of a former MP from being nominated for election is a tempting one.

    William Pitt the Younger is an obvious example where this would have barred someone exceptional, but would we really have missed out on anyone else?
  • Omnium said:

    So easy to be first these days! TSE must have his keys taken away!

    I've been on holiday for the past week.
  • On topic, I wonder what this will do for the NHS waiting lists.

    The Home Office has told an asylum seeker with tuberculosis they are going to be moved onto the Bibby Stockholm barge, i can reveal.

    The doctor treating the migrant is trying to prevent the move and has warned of a “public health catastrophe in the making”.

    Dr Dominik Metz, a GP for more than 250 asylum seekers in Oxfordshire, told i that 10 of his patients have received letters from the Home Office saying they would be moved to the barge.


    https://inews.co.uk/news/home-office-asylum-seeker-tb-bibby-stockholm-health-fears-2537035
  • .
    She could be, but she shouldn't be. Being married to an ex president is surely not enough for a tilt at the crown. If the US is so broken that Michelle Obama is the best out of 360 million people, then they may as well give up. She probably wouldn't be any worse than Biden, and better than Trump but it sniffs of Hilary Clinton wanting her turn.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,744

    Omnium said:

    So easy to be first these days! TSE must have his keys taken away!

    I've been on holiday for the past week.
    So... you go on holiday, and nothing happens ... I mean zip, niento, bugger all, not a thing! Mike pops down to Waitrose ...!
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,509

    .

    She could be, but she shouldn't be. Being married to an ex president is surely not enough for a tilt at the crown. If the US is so broken that Michelle Obama is the best out of 360 million people, then they may as well give up. She probably wouldn't be any worse than Biden, and better than Trump but it sniffs of Hilary Clinton wanting her turn.
    Hilary Clinton actually got herself elected to other roles, before standing to be President. Michelle Obama has no political record at all, and there’s no indication that she has any interest in the job, giving up her rather comfortable life to do so.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,738

    On topic, I wonder what this will do for the NHS waiting lists.

    The Home Office has told an asylum seeker with tuberculosis they are going to be moved onto the Bibby Stockholm barge, i can reveal.

    The doctor treating the migrant is trying to prevent the move and has warned of a “public health catastrophe in the making”.

    Dr Dominik Metz, a GP for more than 250 asylum seekers in Oxfordshire, told i that 10 of his patients have received letters from the Home Office saying they would be moved to the barge.


    https://inews.co.uk/news/home-office-asylum-seeker-tb-bibby-stockholm-health-fears-2537035

    TB used to be a real problem in the Royal Navy. For obvious reasons.

    At least when the barge was being used for wworkers the folk in them had the working day mostly out of the barge.
  • On topic, I wonder what this will do for the NHS waiting lists.

    More illegals, more pressure on the NHS.
  • Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    So easy to be first these days! TSE must have his keys taken away!

    I've been on holiday for the past week.
    So... you go on holiday, and nothing happens ... I mean zip, niento, bugger all, not a thing! Mike pops down to Waitrose ...!
    I'm still reeling from paying £9 for a 750 ml bottle of water in London.
  • Reuters: SPECIAL COUNSEL SMITH PROPOSES JANUARY 2, 2024, TRIAL DATE FOR TRUMP'S JANUARY 6 CASE - COURT FILING

    https://twitter.com/kylegriffin1/status/1689696872758210560
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,485
    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    On topic - the NHS is clearly broken. It's mainly broken from inefficiency. Oddly that's good, as we can just sack all the oafs. However the picture is clear and we can't run away from it. Health costs far more than we currently wish to spend.

    I'm not disagreeing, but what is your data that shows that the NHS is more inefficient than alternative health systems?
    None whatsoever. I could probably find some data, but that'd be pointless. Endless press reports and personal experience indicate that the NHS is inefficient.

    Comparisons are irrelevant when most of the staff are spending most of their time twiddling their thumbs. (I have no data on this)
    The NHS has millions of 'customers' per year. If you get a 0.1% 'problem' rate, that's 1,000 'problems' per million. And that's a lot of stories. But I'd also argue that, given the way human physiology and problems are, that 0.1 'problems' are unrealistically low.

    Comparing healthcare systems is far from easy, but anecdotes and press reports tend to veer towards poor experiences. "The NHS fixed my issue" is not a headline. "I had the wrong leg amputated!" is.

    This does not mean that the NHS is efficient; just that *perceptions* of efficiency are bound to be wildly inaccurate.
    Efficiency and efficacy are quite different things.
    Indeed. But again... data.
    Just my impressions. Data sample of 1 plus a little more from others.
    Okay, and that's fair enough. But as I've said before, the problem is we are more likely to remember *bad* experiences than *good* experiences. The NHS mucked up 12 years of my life, and I remember that. I've also had other poor experiences. The good experiences go fluttering out of my memory like flutterbys, remaining as vague memories.
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 8,578
    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    On topic - the NHS is clearly broken. It's mainly broken from inefficiency. Oddly that's good, as we can just sack all the oafs. However the picture is clear and we can't run away from it. Health costs far more than we currently wish to spend.

    I'm not disagreeing, but what is your data that shows that the NHS is more inefficient than alternative health systems?
    None whatsoever. I could probably find some data, but that'd be pointless. Endless press reports and personal experience indicate that the NHS is inefficient.

    Comparisons are irrelevant when most of the staff are spending most of their time twiddling their thumbs. (I have no data on this)
    The NHS has millions of 'customers' per year. If you get a 0.1% 'problem' rate, that's 1,000 'problems' per million. And that's a lot of stories. But I'd also argue that, given the way human physiology and problems are, that 0.1 'problems' are unrealistically low.

    Comparing healthcare systems is far from easy, but anecdotes and press reports tend to veer towards poor experiences. "The NHS fixed my issue" is not a headline. "I had the wrong leg amputated!" is.

    This does not mean that the NHS is efficient; just that *perceptions* of efficiency are bound to be wildly inaccurate.
    Efficiency and efficacy are quite different things.
    “There is nothing quite so useless as doing with great efficiency something that should not be done at all.” Peter Drucker.

    Of every activity, the question should be asked "Is this really worth doing?" rather than "How can we do this more efficiently?"
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,340
    edited August 2023

    I'm not generally a fan of term limits, or other restrictions on who the electorate are permitted to elect, but having a bar on any direct family members of a former MP from being nominated for election is a tempting one.

    William Pitt the Younger is an obvious example where this would have barred someone exceptional, but would we really have missed out on anyone else?
    His direct successor, Grenville - also the son of a former PM and the man who finally put a stop to the slave trade.

    We would also have missed out on divers Salisburys, including the first Earl and the third, fourth and fifth marquesses.

    Also Austen and Neville Chamberlain.

    Perhaps I've missed the most obvious one of all - Winston Churchill.
  • Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    So easy to be first these days! TSE must have his keys taken away!

    I've been on holiday for the past week.
    So... you go on holiday, and nothing happens ... I mean zip, niento, bugger all, not a thing! Mike pops down to Waitrose ...!
    I'm still reeling from paying £9 for a 750 ml bottle of water in London.
    Where was that? Boots sell them for only £1.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,738
    ydoethur said:

    I'm not generally a fan of term limits, or other restrictions on who the electorate are permitted to elect, but having a bar on any direct family members of a former MP from being nominated for election is a tempting one.

    William Pitt the Younger is an obvious example where this would have barred someone exceptional, but would we really have missed out on anyone else?
    His direct successor, Grenville - also the son of a former PM and the man who finally put a stop to the slave trade.

    We would also have missed out on divers Salisburys, including the first Earl and the third, fourth and fifth marquesses.

    Also Austen and Neville Chamberlain.

    Perhaps I've missed the most obvious one of all - Winston Churchill.
    If you start using that argument, the hereditary peers become an even bigger anomaly.

    And do you exclude MPs who are the scions of members of the Lords?
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,496
    Omnium said:

    On topic - the NHS is clearly broken. It's mainly broken from inefficiency. Oddly that's good, as we can just sack all the oafs. However the picture is clear and we can't run away from it. Health costs far more than we currently wish to spend.

    In a sense the most interesting question is the one never answered. In a nationalised health service there are two big and related issues. One is competence both of healing people, care and admin to which no simple analysis can be possible. The second is funding, which ought to be simpler in principle.

    The never answered question is: What % of GDP should a nationalised health care system properly cost? We all know that so far it is never enough, but how much is enough?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,485
    Sandpit said:

    .

    She could be, but she shouldn't be. Being married to an ex president is surely not enough for a tilt at the crown. If the US is so broken that Michelle Obama is the best out of 360 million people, then they may as well give up. She probably wouldn't be any worse than Biden, and better than Trump but it sniffs of Hilary Clinton wanting her turn.
    Hilary Clinton actually got herself elected to other roles, before standing to be President. Michelle Obama has no political record at all, and there’s no indication that she has any interest in the job, giving up her rather comfortable life to do so.
    Trump had a 'rather comfortable life' before politics. So did (say) Cameron. Or Sunak.

    Sometimes, something other than comfort attracts people to politics. Perhaps it's the enticement of power. Or perhaps the idea you might improve things in the country. Or perhaps further personal enrichment. Or any combination of the above.

    From having seen her speak on YouTube, Michelle Obama would knock Trump out of the park in terms of argument and rhetoric. The question is whether good argument and rhetoric is what the US population want to hear, as opposed to simple answers and soundbites.

    TL:dr; Michelle Obama would not stand. But not because she wants a comfortable life...
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,304

    .

    She could be, but she shouldn't be. Being married to an ex president is surely not enough for a tilt at the crown. If the US is so broken that Michelle Obama is the best out of 360 million people, then they may as well give up. She probably wouldn't be any worse than Biden, and better than Trump but it sniffs of Hilary Clinton wanting her turn.
    He's like: I talked to some bloke who knows some bloke in a foreign government who has a theory that.. lol.

    It's bollocks. She has no interest in politics. Like for Bushes, Kennedys, Trumps, Clintons Obamas this is a name thing.

    Which really highlights ignorance of the actualite of American politics.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,648
    ydoethur said:

    I'm not generally a fan of term limits, or other restrictions on who the electorate are permitted to elect, but having a bar on any direct family members of a former MP from being nominated for election is a tempting one.

    William Pitt the Younger is an obvious example where this would have barred someone exceptional, but would we really have missed out on anyone else?
    His direct successor, Grenville - also the son of a former PM and the man who finally put a stop to the slave trade.

    We would also have missed out on divers Salisburys, including the first Earl and the third, fourth and fifth marquesses.

    Also Austen and Neville Chamberlain.

    Perhaps I've missed the most obvious one of all - Winston Churchill.
    Barring someone because of who their relatives happen to be would be as iniquitous as giving them a position because of who their relatives happen to be.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,437

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    So easy to be first these days! TSE must have his keys taken away!

    I've been on holiday for the past week.
    So... you go on holiday, and nothing happens ... I mean zip, niento, bugger all, not a thing! Mike pops down to Waitrose ...!
    I'm still reeling from paying £9 for a 750 ml bottle of water in London.
    Aren't you supposed to just shoplift in London?
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,648
    "The big NHS news this afternoon is that the NHS waiting list in England is now almost at 8m – the highest level yet."

    But where is this big news being reported? BBC? No. Guardian? No. Very strange.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,854
    Very sad. From a very enjoyable ten days with Bjorn Dunkerbeck

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hDLGlvOav6M
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,738

    "The big NHS news this afternoon is that the NHS waiting list in England is now almost at 8m – the highest level yet."

    But where is this big news being reported? BBC? No. Guardian? No. Very strange.

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/aug/10/people-england-waiting-for-nhs-treatment
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,842

    The NHS is devolved and it is always the English NHS that is criticised, when in truth all the devolved nations are experiencing the same issues albeit Wales is run by Labour and Scotland by the SNP/Greens

    Indeed Drakeford indicated yesterday of an overspend of nearly 1 billion in Wales, and suggested cuts will be needed in the Wales NHS and Education, notwithstanding that Wales receives £1.20 per head from the treasury compared to £1 in England

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-65616395

    That reads as a desperate attempt to somehow exonerate the Conservatives.

    The truth is your party has led the Government for the last thirteen years or more - apart from throwing money at it (allegedly), what have the Conservatives actually done to improve the English NHS?

    As an example, in my part of London, we are constantly building new flats and increasing the population but where are the medical services to support the increased population? Where are the new Medical Centres, the new GP surgeries, the additional hospital capacity?

    This is where those who argue for an unfettered planning process have it so wrong - they forget housing isn't just about four walls and a roof for someone to live but it's about all the amenities and networks supporting that new property from sewage and drainage via power to transport and medical.

    All significant developments should be supported by additional infrastructure paid for and provided by the developer as a condition for granting permission - the current Section 106 arrangements are a sop, we need something with serious financial teeth.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,340

    ydoethur said:

    I'm not generally a fan of term limits, or other restrictions on who the electorate are permitted to elect, but having a bar on any direct family members of a former MP from being nominated for election is a tempting one.

    William Pitt the Younger is an obvious example where this would have barred someone exceptional, but would we really have missed out on anyone else?
    His direct successor, Grenville - also the son of a former PM and the man who finally put a stop to the slave trade.

    We would also have missed out on divers Salisburys, including the first Earl and the third, fourth and fifth marquesses.

    Also Austen and Neville Chamberlain.

    Perhaps I've missed the most obvious one of all - Winston Churchill.
    Barring someone because of who their relatives happen to be would be as iniquitous as giving them a position because of who their relatives happen to be.
    It's a good job we don't do that kind of thing in this country.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,326
    Carnyx said:

    "The big NHS news this afternoon is that the NHS waiting list in England is now almost at 8m – the highest level yet."

    But where is this big news being reported? BBC? No. Guardian? No. Very strange.

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/aug/10/people-england-waiting-for-nhs-treatment
    Also https://bbc.co.uk/news/health-66460309
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,273
    The poisoned dwarf and the rest of the cesspit government can wank on about the boats but NHS waiting lists are more important to the public .

    Labour should just keep hammering them on the NHS and repeat ad nauseam that when they left office the NHS had its best satisfaction ratings with vastly lower waiting lists .

  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,485

    .

    She could be, but she shouldn't be. Being married to an ex president is surely not enough for a tilt at the crown. If the US is so broken that Michelle Obama is the best out of 360 million people, then they may as well give up. She probably wouldn't be any worse than Biden, and better than Trump but it sniffs of Hilary Clinton wanting her turn.
    He's like: I talked to some bloke who knows some bloke in a foreign government who has a theory that.. lol.

    It's bollocks. She has no interest in politics. Like for Bushes, Kennedys, Trumps, Clintons Obamas this is a name thing.

    Which really highlights ignorance of the actualite of American politics.
    Remember Tony Benn's grand-daughter standing in the 2010 GE? She ended up in third place.

    Compared to the Kennedy clan's cancerous hands on US politics. Or the Bush's. Or the attempts by Clinton.

    We're meant to be more class-driven and aristocratic than the US; the reality can be quite different. Where did Sunak come from? Or Truss? Or even Blair?
  • Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    So easy to be first these days! TSE must have his keys taken away!

    I've been on holiday for the past week.
    So... you go on holiday, and nothing happens ... I mean zip, niento, bugger all, not a thing! Mike pops down to Waitrose ...!
    I'm still reeling from paying £9 for a 750 ml bottle of water in London.
    Where was that? Boots sell them for only £1.
    The Ritz restaurant.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,744

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    So easy to be first these days! TSE must have his keys taken away!

    I've been on holiday for the past week.
    So... you go on holiday, and nothing happens ... I mean zip, niento, bugger all, not a thing! Mike pops down to Waitrose ...!
    I'm still reeling from paying £9 for a 750 ml bottle of water in London.
    Where was that? Boots sell them for only £1.
    Actually Mr Trains it's precisely at train stations that the ludicrous pricing of things like water is paramount.

    WH Smiths - they don't sell books any more. They just sell (or try to sell in my case) water at daft prices.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,340
    I've often thought it would be quite fun to write a comparative history of the three Chamberlains, and call it 'Lords of the Commons: The Chamberlain dynasty.'

    Never had time to do it though.

    Three very interesting and very different characters. All of them rose to be party leaders, but all their careers ultimately ended in eclipse. Also - interestingly - all of them were still MPs at the time of their death.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 62,962
    edited August 2023
    nico679 said:

    The poisoned dwarf and the rest of the cesspit government can wank on about the boats but NHS waiting lists are more important to the public .

    Labour should just keep hammering them on the NHS and repeat ad nauseam that when they left office the NHS had its best satisfaction ratings with vastly lower waiting lists .

    Just for clarification who is the poisoned dwarf you refer to

    And Wales NHS is not any better under labour

  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,738

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    So easy to be first these days! TSE must have his keys taken away!

    I've been on holiday for the past week.
    So... you go on holiday, and nothing happens ... I mean zip, niento, bugger all, not a thing! Mike pops down to Waitrose ...!
    I'm still reeling from paying £9 for a 750 ml bottle of water in London.
    Where was that? Boots sell them for only £1.
    The Ritz restaurant.
    Did it have flakes of gold in it? Or was it worth it not to have recycled water from Thames Water?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,340
    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    So easy to be first these days! TSE must have his keys taken away!

    I've been on holiday for the past week.
    So... you go on holiday, and nothing happens ... I mean zip, niento, bugger all, not a thing! Mike pops down to Waitrose ...!
    I'm still reeling from paying £9 for a 750 ml bottle of water in London.
    Where was that? Boots sell them for only £1.
    Actually Mr Trains it's precisely at train stations that the ludicrous pricing of things like water is paramount.

    WH Smiths - they don't sell books any more. They just sell (or try to sell in my case) water at daft prices.
    Most people who sell your water are taking the piss.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,738
    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    So easy to be first these days! TSE must have his keys taken away!

    I've been on holiday for the past week.
    So... you go on holiday, and nothing happens ... I mean zip, niento, bugger all, not a thing! Mike pops down to Waitrose ...!
    I'm still reeling from paying £9 for a 750 ml bottle of water in London.
    Where was that? Boots sell them for only £1.
    Actually Mr Trains it's precisely at train stations that the ludicrous pricing of things like water is paramount.

    WH Smiths - they don't sell books any more. They just sell (or try to sell in my case) water at daft prices.
    Just buy the DT, tell the chap to chuck the paper in the recycling, and keep the water.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,281
    algarkirk said:

    Omnium said:

    On topic - the NHS is clearly broken. It's mainly broken from inefficiency. Oddly that's good, as we can just sack all the oafs. However the picture is clear and we can't run away from it. Health costs far more than we currently wish to spend.

    In a sense the most interesting question is the one never answered. In a nationalised health service there are two big and related issues. One is competence both of healing people, care and admin to which no simple analysis can be possible. The second is funding, which ought to be simpler in principle.

    The never answered question is: What % of GDP should a nationalised health care system properly cost? We all know that so far it is never enough, but how much is enough?
    The demographic transition makes that a moving target. As the population ages it would be expected that a greater proportion of the nation's income should be devoted to healthcare.

    We shouldn't pretend that the demographic transition isn't happening.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,648

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    So easy to be first these days! TSE must have his keys taken away!

    I've been on holiday for the past week.
    So... you go on holiday, and nothing happens ... I mean zip, niento, bugger all, not a thing! Mike pops down to Waitrose ...!
    I'm still reeling from paying £9 for a 750 ml bottle of water in London.
    Where was that? Boots sell them for only £1.
    The Ritz restaurant.
    You splashed out on water then?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,485

    nico679 said:

    The poisoned dwarf and the rest of the cesspit government can wank on about the boats but NHS waiting lists are more important to the public .

    Labour should just keep hammering them on the NHS and repeat ad nauseam that when they left office the NHS had its best satisfaction ratings with vastly lower waiting lists .

    Just for clarification who is the poisoned dwarf you refer to

    And Wales NHS is not any better under labour

    'poison dwarf' and 'kid starver' are two indications that you can ignore the rest of the post. Hence there are two reasons to ignore this post. ;)
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,738

    nico679 said:

    The poisoned dwarf and the rest of the cesspit government can wank on about the boats but NHS waiting lists are more important to the public .

    Labour should just keep hammering them on the NHS and repeat ad nauseam that when they left office the NHS had its best satisfaction ratings with vastly lower waiting lists .

    Just for clarification who is the poisoned dwarf you refer to

    And Wales NHS is not any better under labour

    Come now. If Mr Drakeford and LLafur do as good a job as the Tories do in England, where does that leave your criticisms of Mr D?
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,648
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    I'm not generally a fan of term limits, or other restrictions on who the electorate are permitted to elect, but having a bar on any direct family members of a former MP from being nominated for election is a tempting one.

    William Pitt the Younger is an obvious example where this would have barred someone exceptional, but would we really have missed out on anyone else?
    His direct successor, Grenville - also the son of a former PM and the man who finally put a stop to the slave trade.

    We would also have missed out on divers Salisburys, including the first Earl and the third, fourth and fifth marquesses.

    Also Austen and Neville Chamberlain.

    Perhaps I've missed the most obvious one of all - Winston Churchill.
    Barring someone because of who their relatives happen to be would be as iniquitous as giving them a position because of who their relatives happen to be.
    It's a good job we don't do that kind of thing in this country.
    My next post will probably be from The Tower.
  • Carnyx said:

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    So easy to be first these days! TSE must have his keys taken away!

    I've been on holiday for the past week.
    So... you go on holiday, and nothing happens ... I mean zip, niento, bugger all, not a thing! Mike pops down to Waitrose ...!
    I'm still reeling from paying £9 for a 750 ml bottle of water in London.
    Where was that? Boots sell them for only £1.
    The Ritz restaurant.
    Did it have flakes of gold in it? Or was it worth it not to have recycled water from Thames Water?
    The food was magnificent, the service even better but worth it not to drink London tap water.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,648
    Carnyx said:

    "The big NHS news this afternoon is that the NHS waiting list in England is now almost at 8m – the highest level yet."

    But where is this big news being reported? BBC? No. Guardian? No. Very strange.

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/aug/10/people-england-waiting-for-nhs-treatment
    Cheers, surprised it's not on the main page though.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,738
    stodge said:

    The NHS is devolved and it is always the English NHS that is criticised, when in truth all the devolved nations are experiencing the same issues albeit Wales is run by Labour and Scotland by the SNP/Greens

    Indeed Drakeford indicated yesterday of an overspend of nearly 1 billion in Wales, and suggested cuts will be needed in the Wales NHS and Education, notwithstanding that Wales receives £1.20 per head from the treasury compared to £1 in England

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-65616395

    That reads as a desperate attempt to somehow exonerate the Conservatives.

    The truth is your party has led the Government for the last thirteen years or more - apart from throwing money at it (allegedly), what have the Conservatives actually done to improve the English NHS?

    As an example, in my part of London, we are constantly building new flats and increasing the population but where are the medical services to support the increased population? Where are the new Medical Centres, the new GP surgeries, the additional hospital capacity?

    This is where those who argue for an unfettered planning process have it so wrong - they forget housing isn't just about four walls and a roof for someone to live but it's about all the amenities and networks supporting that new property from sewage and drainage via power to transport and medical.

    All significant developments should be supported by additional infrastructure paid for and provided by the developer as a condition for granting permission - the current Section 106 arrangements are a sop, we need something with serious financial teeth.
    Indeed. A few years of Victorian style libertarianism and we'd have raw sewage running down the gutters even before it gets into the Thames Water sewers.
  • I'm playing cricket against my local fish & chip shop this weekend.

    Their fielders and bowlers aren't that good but their batter is brilliant.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,760
    We are in serious danger of becoming an NHS with a small country attached. It is already absorbing an insane proportion of public expenditure and yet it produces ever more absurd figures like these.

    Is there anyone well in this country? Anyone at all who is not on a waiting list for something?

    It appears not.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 62,962
    edited August 2023
    Carnyx said:

    nico679 said:

    The poisoned dwarf and the rest of the cesspit government can wank on about the boats but NHS waiting lists are more important to the public .

    Labour should just keep hammering them on the NHS and repeat ad nauseam that when they left office the NHS had its best satisfaction ratings with vastly lower waiting lists .

    Just for clarification who is the poisoned dwarf you refer to

    And Wales NHS is not any better under labour

    Come now. If Mr Drakeford and LLafur do as good a job as the Tories do in England, where does that leave your criticisms of Mr D?
    I have already posted an article on Wales failing NHS tonight plus Drakeford admitted overspend of nearly 1 billion with his office saying cuts are needed in NHS Wales and education even though Wales receives £1.20 per head from the treasury compared to England £1
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,340
    Carnyx said:

    nico679 said:

    The poisoned dwarf and the rest of the cesspit government can wank on about the boats but NHS waiting lists are more important to the public .

    Labour should just keep hammering them on the NHS and repeat ad nauseam that when they left office the NHS had its best satisfaction ratings with vastly lower waiting lists .

    Just for clarification who is the poisoned dwarf you refer to

    And Wales NHS is not any better under labour

    Come now. If Mr Drakeford and LLafur do as good a job as the Tories do in England, where does that leave your criticisms of Mr D?
    I was in Carmarthenshire last week, visiting some friends just outside Llandovery.

    It was very striking to note how utterly scathing they were about *every* aspect of Welsh politics.

    Ok, that's Carmarthenshire, where senior council officials were not so long ago actually arrested for malfeasance. But I was still taken aback at the extent of their antipathy.

    There is an opening in Wales for a radical party promising radical changes. The snag is, there isn't one.

    If typical, it does explain the increasing vocalism of the Welsh independence movement, which has been puzzling me somewhat. Born of disillusionment and frustration, it seems to be expressing a wish to disrupt an unacceptable status quo. But in practical terms it's as much use as a sick headache as it has no organisation and no leader.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,340

    I'm playing cricket against my local fish & chip shop this weekend.

    Their fielders and bowlers aren't that good but their batter is brilliant.

    Although I understand they have a demon fast bowler. One over from him and your side will have had its chips.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,848
    It's tricky. I yield to no one in my assessment of the NHS as useless and not fit for purpose.

    Equally, if you hose money at it there will be an improvement in health outcomes as we saw post 1997.

    That said the post 97 health spending was hugely inefficient and contributed to many of the problems we see today eg GP contracts.

    The NHS meanwhile remained as useless as it always was just that there was so much money sloshing around that there was an inevitable improvement.

    That said, the public is probably ready for another round of hosing.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,193

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    So easy to be first these days! TSE must have his keys taken away!

    I've been on holiday for the past week.
    So... you go on holiday, and nothing happens ... I mean zip, niento, bugger all, not a thing! Mike pops down to Waitrose ...!
    I'm still reeling from paying £9 for a 750 ml bottle of water in London.
    And you paid it? Bottled water, rather than tap, is for those with more money than sense at any price.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,485
    ydoethur said:

    I've often thought it would be quite fun to write a comparative history of the three Chamberlains, and call it 'Lords of the Commons: The Chamberlain dynasty.'

    Never had time to do it though.

    Three very interesting and very different characters. All of them rose to be party leaders, but all their careers ultimately ended in eclipse. Also - interestingly - all of them were still MPs at the time of their death.

    This is to the credit of May: Four years after being deposed as PM, she's still an MP (and I don't think she's announced standing down at the next GE?). It's too early to say for Truss. Johnson lasted a year. Cameron a few months. Brown five years. Blair virtually zero time. Major four years.

    Staying long after you've left the top job indicates to me that you may be in it for public service, not just power.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,572
    edited August 2023

    algarkirk said:

    Omnium said:

    On topic - the NHS is clearly broken. It's mainly broken from inefficiency. Oddly that's good, as we can just sack all the oafs. However the picture is clear and we can't run away from it. Health costs far more than we currently wish to spend.

    In a sense the most interesting question is the one never answered. In a nationalised health service there are two big and related issues. One is competence both of healing people, care and admin to which no simple analysis can be possible. The second is funding, which ought to be simpler in principle.

    The never answered question is: What % of GDP should a nationalised health care system properly cost? We all know that so far it is never enough, but how much is enough?
    The demographic transition makes that a moving target. As the population ages it would be expected that a greater proportion of the nation's income should be devoted to healthcare.

    We shouldn't pretend that the demographic transition isn't happening.
    And yet the OBR, OECD etc have pointed out that demographic change has had very little impact on NHS spending, and will likely continue to have only a minor effect (though in Scotland we might have it a bit worse off).

    The main contributor is a mysterious residual growth rate. This might be increasing age-specific rates of chronic conditions (obesity/dementia), technological change, or something else. It might be a classic income effect with a value greater than 1, as you describe; as we become a richer country, a larger proportion of our economy is dedicated to health. This manifests as a political choice to fire more money in that direction.

    A large proportion (about 50%) of current health pressure is just in line with the long term trend.

    This isn't necessarlily a bad thing. We might reach 20% of GDP on health. That might mean millions of people have vastly better lives. But supply begets demand - maybe we just need to reset expectations on what you are entitled to?
  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,454

    I'm playing cricket against my local fish & chip shop this weekend.

    Their fielders and bowlers aren't that good but their batter is brilliant.

    I expect their worst bowler to throw in a few pies.
  • Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 2,996
    FWIW, Michelle Obama, like her father before her, was a small part of the Chicago machine. Which in recent decades has done so much to reduce crime and poverty in Chicago. She was helped, of course, by Barack's many achievements there, and the way that both of them avoided race hustlers like Al Sharpton.
    /sarc

  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,340

    ydoethur said:

    I've often thought it would be quite fun to write a comparative history of the three Chamberlains, and call it 'Lords of the Commons: The Chamberlain dynasty.'

    Never had time to do it though.

    Three very interesting and very different characters. All of them rose to be party leaders, but all their careers ultimately ended in eclipse. Also - interestingly - all of them were still MPs at the time of their death.

    This is to the credit of May: Four years after being deposed as PM, she's still an MP (and I don't think she's announced standing down at the next GE?). It's too early to say for Truss. Johnson lasted a year. Cameron a few months. Brown five years. Blair virtually zero time. Major four years.

    Staying long after you've left the top job indicates to me that you may be in it for public service, not just power.
    Callaghan did eight years, Wilson six years. Heath 27 years. Home ten years (and nine after resigning as party leader).

    But it wasn't a given even in the past. Baldwin stayed in the Commons only a few days before being ennobled. Balfour may be a different case as he lost his seat (and later returned as an MP). Disraeli left the commons halfway through his second premiership.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,485
    DavidL said:

    On a slightly related note I have just had fish and chips in Aberdeen in a Witherspoon's
    Nuked doesn’t really cover it.
    It really ought to be illegal to do that to a fish. Especially in Aberdeen.
    I mean FFS.

    A friend once had fish and chips at the Plough, just outside Cambridge. The fish was piping hot on the outside, but the white meat was still frozen. A fishy baked alaska. I still wonder how the chef managed that.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,572
    edited August 2023
    DavidL said:

    On a slightly related note I have just had fish and chips in Aberdeen in a Witherspoon's
    Nuked doesn’t really cover it.
    It really ought to be illegal to do that to a fish. Especially in Aberdeen.
    I mean FFS.

    About 1,300 calories. Hope it was worth it!
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 62,962
    edited August 2023
    stodge said:

    The NHS is devolved and it is always the English NHS that is criticised, when in truth all the devolved nations are experiencing the same issues albeit Wales is run by Labour and Scotland by the SNP/Greens

    Indeed Drakeford indicated yesterday of an overspend of nearly 1 billion in Wales, and suggested cuts will be needed in the Wales NHS and Education, notwithstanding that Wales receives £1.20 per head from the treasury compared to £1 in England

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-65616395

    That reads as a desperate attempt to somehow exonerate the Conservatives.

    The truth is your party has led the Government for the last thirteen years or more - apart from throwing money at it (allegedly), what have the Conservatives actually done to improve the English NHS?

    As an example, in my part of London, we are constantly building new flats and increasing the population but where are the medical services to support the increased population? Where are the new Medical Centres, the new GP surgeries, the additional hospital capacity?

    This is where those who argue for an unfettered planning process have it so wrong - they forget housing isn't just about four walls and a roof for someone to live but it's about all the amenities and networks supporting that new property from sewage and drainage via power to transport and medical.

    All significant developments should be supported by additional infrastructure paid for and provided by the developer as a condition for granting permission - the current Section 106 arrangements are a sop, we need something with serious financial teeth.
    I reject that accusation as my family and friends live here in Wales and have had terrible experiences of our NHS and our health authority are in special measures

    How England performs does not affect us, but Wales certainly does and when I read of the failures in England's NHS I only have to look at ours and see the same and even worse issues

    The wider point is no political party has the answer to the NHS either in England or the devolved nations
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,340
    boulay said:

    I'm playing cricket against my local fish & chip shop this weekend.

    Their fielders and bowlers aren't that good but their batter is brilliant.

    I expect their worst bowler to throw in a few pies.
    And their wicketkeeper to do a controversial runout and then get a salt - Ed?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,520
    edited August 2023
    Stocky said:

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    So easy to be first these days! TSE must have his keys taken away!

    I've been on holiday for the past week.
    So... you go on holiday, and nothing happens ... I mean zip, niento, bugger all, not a thing! Mike pops down to Waitrose ...!
    I'm still reeling from paying £9 for a 750 ml bottle of water in London.
    And you paid it? Bottled water, rather than tap, is for those with more money than sense at any price.
    They took advantage of this working class Northerner.

    London is so fecking expensive.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,088

    Sandpit said:

    .

    She could be, but she shouldn't be. Being married to an ex president is surely not enough for a tilt at the crown. If the US is so broken that Michelle Obama is the best out of 360 million people, then they may as well give up. She probably wouldn't be any worse than Biden, and better than Trump but it sniffs of Hilary Clinton wanting her turn.
    Hilary Clinton actually got herself elected to other roles, before standing to be President. Michelle Obama has no political record at all, and there’s no indication that she has any interest in the job, giving up her rather comfortable life to do so.
    Trump had a 'rather comfortable life' before politics. So did (say) Cameron. Or Sunak.

    Sometimes, something other than comfort attracts people to politics. Perhaps it's the enticement of power. Or perhaps the idea you might improve things in the country. Or perhaps further personal enrichment. Or any combination of the above.

    From having seen her speak on YouTube, Michelle Obama would knock Trump out of the park in terms of argument and rhetoric. The question is whether good argument and rhetoric is what the US population want to hear, as opposed to simple answers and soundbites.

    TL:dr; Michelle Obama would not stand. But not because she wants a comfortable life...
    I backed her at 3 digits and am pleased I did. Unlikely obvs but more likely than most other unlikelies (eg RFK).
  • OldBasingOldBasing Posts: 173

    "The big NHS news this afternoon is that the NHS waiting list in England is now almost at 8m – the highest level yet."

    But where is this big news being reported? BBC? No. Guardian? No. Very strange.

    It was the lead story on the BBC Six o'clock TV news this evening.
  • Stocky said:

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    So easy to be first these days! TSE must have his keys taken away!

    I've been on holiday for the past week.
    So... you go on holiday, and nothing happens ... I mean zip, niento, bugger all, not a thing! Mike pops down to Waitrose ...!
    I'm still reeling from paying £9 for a 750 ml bottle of water in London.
    And you paid it? Bottled water, rather than tap, is for those with more money than sense at any price.
    They took advantage of this working class Northerner.

    London is so fecking awesome/
    Plenty of Boots branches where they sell 750 ml bottles for only £1 each :lol:
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,760

    DavidL said:

    On a slightly related note I have just had fish and chips in Aberdeen in a Witherspoon's
    Nuked doesn’t really cover it.
    It really ought to be illegal to do that to a fish. Especially in Aberdeen.
    I mean FFS.

    A friend once had fish and chips at the Plough, just outside Cambridge. The fish was piping hot on the outside, but the white meat was still frozen. A fishy baked alaska. I still wonder how the chef managed that.
    This just had irradiated batter and an arid dryness that pained the palate. Awful. Just awful. In the home of our North Sea fleet.
    The Mushy peas were extraordinary. The chips limp, greasy and tasteless. Truly a remarkable effort that must have required both focus and determination.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,648
    edited August 2023
    DavidL said:

    We are in serious danger of becoming an NHS with a small country attached. It is already absorbing an insane proportion of public expenditure and yet it produces ever more absurd figures like these.

    Is there anyone well in this country? Anyone at all who is not on a waiting list for something?

    It appears not.

    You say 'insane amounts' but the evidence suggests we are not spending as much as other western European countries.

    https://www.health.org.uk/news-and-comment/charts-and-infographics/how-does-uk-health-spending-compare-across-europe-over-the-past-decade
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,572

    stodge said:

    The NHS is devolved and it is always the English NHS that is criticised, when in truth all the devolved nations are experiencing the same issues albeit Wales is run by Labour and Scotland by the SNP/Greens

    Indeed Drakeford indicated yesterday of an overspend of nearly 1 billion in Wales, and suggested cuts will be needed in the Wales NHS and Education, notwithstanding that Wales receives £1.20 per head from the treasury compared to £1 in England

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-65616395

    That reads as a desperate attempt to somehow exonerate the Conservatives.

    The truth is your party has led the Government for the last thirteen years or more - apart from throwing money at it (allegedly), what have the Conservatives actually done to improve the English NHS?

    As an example, in my part of London, we are constantly building new flats and increasing the population but where are the medical services to support the increased population? Where are the new Medical Centres, the new GP surgeries, the additional hospital capacity?

    This is where those who argue for an unfettered planning process have it so wrong - they forget housing isn't just about four walls and a roof for someone to live but it's about all the amenities and networks supporting that new property from sewage and drainage via power to transport and medical.

    All significant developments should be supported by additional infrastructure paid for and provided by the developer as a condition for granting permission - the current Section 106 arrangements are a sop, we need something with serious financial teeth.
    I reject that accusation as my family and friends live here in Wales and have had terrible experiences of our NHS and our health authority are in special measures

    How England performs does not affect us, but Wales certainly does and when I read of the failures in England's NHS I only have to look at ours and see the same and even worse issues

    The wider point is no political party has the answer to the NHS either in England or the devolved nations
    Not quite - if England's performance improves, the amount of money that is allocated to Wales will fall in line with that reduction in spending (or vice versa). You should be grateful that England is doing so badly!

    I'm assuming Wales' funding works a bit likes ours in Scotland.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,040

    Waiting lists can only get higher over the winter. It could be this time next year before they start falling - if they do even then. Another nail in the Tories coffin.

    Not if all the people on them died.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,340

    Stocky said:

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    So easy to be first these days! TSE must have his keys taken away!

    I've been on holiday for the past week.
    So... you go on holiday, and nothing happens ... I mean zip, niento, bugger all, not a thing! Mike pops down to Waitrose ...!
    I'm still reeling from paying £9 for a 750 ml bottle of water in London.
    And you paid it? Bottled water, rather than tap, is for those with more money than sense at any price.
    They took advantage of this working class Northerner.

    London is so fecking awesome/
    Plenty of Boots branches where they sell 750 ml bottles for only £1 each :lol:
    And quite a few Boots 750ml bottles which include buying the branch for £1 each, judging by recent developments.
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,273
    No party will go near the NHS in terms of a major reform . Its too dangerous to their election chances . You can get away with more people treated in the private sector to help lower waiting lists but you’re not asking people to pay anything extra or making fundamental changes to the model .

    The French system whilst not perfect has many areas that the British could learn from and its public private model works well.

    The private isn’t what many would properly class as in the true sense of the term . It’s non-profit based in the main .
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,340
    rcs1000 said:

    Waiting lists can only get higher over the winter. It could be this time next year before they start falling - if they do even then. Another nail in the Tories coffin.

    Not if all the people on them died.
    In which case the story would become 'delays in probate destroy value of peoples houses.'
  • PeckPeck Posts: 517
    edited August 2023
    "It is almost as if the Tories have decided already that they don’t stand a chance at the election so this doesn’t really matter. If that is driving their thinking then that is a huge mistake. The state of the waiting list when the Tories eventually leave the government will be thrown at them for elections to come."

    We're still in small boats week.

    If Labour have a trick for getting the overall waiting list figure down, so that a supposed Tory departure from office leaving a Big Number will be held against them "for elections to come", why can't the Tories perform the same trick before the election?

    Or of course in the event of this (almost fantastical) predicted Tory election loss, the waiting list could then stay high or get higher with Labour in office, leaving them of course to blame it all on the Tories as you would expect, but who's to say voters would buy that? It wouldn't be much of a step to say well yes the Tories were and still are crap on health but it did us no good to vote Labour because they're crap too and things haven't improved. Also a period of 4-5 years is a long time in any family. People move home, children grow up, people move on to new stages in their lives, people die, and new people are born. People get used to having sh*t health and f*ck all treatment that makes their life any better. "Nan's back is getting worse and worse. Better switch who we vote for." That's the kind of thought process that's mostly imagined by psephologists but rarely happens in the real world.

    Voters and for that matter also non-voters are simply in despair on health as a political issue. Many have given up. There's zero sign that that's going to change.

    This all said, is there time to create a bunch of w*nkers similar to the Institute of Fiscal Studies but for coughs, colds, sore holes, and hip operations?
  • Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 2,996
    If I were looking for a way to improve efficiency in health care, I would look hard at health savings accounts: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_savings_account

    They proved very popular in Indiana, when Mitch Daniels introduced them for state workers. From what I read about them -- possibly from biased sources -- they reduced costs and, if anything, improved outcomes.

    (I said "look hard", rather than "introduce", because I haven't seen any good, recent studies on them. I'm sure there are some, but they haven't got much publicity.)
  • rcs1000 said:

    Waiting lists can only get higher over the winter. It could be this time next year before they start falling - if they do even then. Another nail in the Tories coffin.

    Not if all the people on them died.
    Though actuarial factors and the age profile for party support say that more people going through death's door a bit faster isn't good news for the blue team either.
  • This country sickens me. The current cohort of pensioners are the most selfish generation this country has ever seen.

    Undergraduates who begin their studies this autumn will be the first generation to face repaying their student loans until after they retire, analysis shows.

    This year’s freshers will be the first cohort to take out the Government’s new “Plan 5” loans, meaning that their debt will not be written off until 40 years after they have graduated, as opposed to 30 years previously.

    The same cohort will also have to begin paying their loans off earlier. While current graduates must start paying their debt back once they start earning £27,295 a year, students on Plan 5 loans will need to start their repayments once they are on a salary of £25,000.

    These changes mean that most graduates will make repayments past the Normal Minimum Pension Age of 55, while those who leave university in their mid or late twenties could be left making repayments past the current State Pension age of 66.


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/consumer-affairs/a-level-leavers-paying-student-loans-retire/
  • MiklosvarMiklosvar Posts: 1,855

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    So easy to be first these days! TSE must have his keys taken away!

    I've been on holiday for the past week.
    So... you go on holiday, and nothing happens ... I mean zip, niento, bugger all, not a thing! Mike pops down to Waitrose ...!
    I'm still reeling from paying £9 for a 750 ml bottle of water in London.
    Where was that? Boots sell them for only £1.
    The Ritz restaurant.
    Motto: We Saw You Coming

    This is like your Turnbull and Asser James bond shirts. I bought a James bond watch 6 or 7 years ago for about 7 shirts equivalent, and after 7 years wear it's worth more than I paid for it. Shirts, not so much and bottled water still less. Conspicuous consumption doesn't have to involve literally pissing it away.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,648

    If I were looking for a way to improve efficiency in health care, I would look hard at health savings accounts: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_savings_account

    They proved very popular in Indiana, when Mitch Daniels introduced them for state workers. From what I read about them -- possibly from biased sources -- they reduced costs and, if anything, improved outcomes.

    (I said "look hard", rather than "introduce", because I haven't seen any good, recent studies on them. I'm sure there are some, but they haven't got much publicity.)

    How does that "improve efficiency in health care"?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,340

    This country sickens me. The current cohort of pensioners are the most selfish generation this country has ever seen.

    Undergraduates who begin their studies this autumn will be the first generation to face repaying their student loans until after they retire, analysis shows.

    This year’s freshers will be the first cohort to take out the Government’s new “Plan 5” loans, meaning that their debt will not be written off until 40 years after they have graduated, as opposed to 30 years previously.

    The same cohort will also have to begin paying their loans off earlier. While current graduates must start paying their debt back once they start earning £27,295 a year, students on Plan 5 loans will need to start their repayments once they are on a salary of £25,000.

    These changes mean that most graduates will make repayments past the Normal Minimum Pension Age of 55, while those who leave university in their mid or late twenties could be left making repayments past the current State Pension age of 66.


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/consumer-affairs/a-level-leavers-paying-student-loans-retire/

    That story is simply silly,

    No 21 year old on a normal pay scale will be retiring at 61.

    75 if they're very lucky.
This discussion has been closed.