Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. Sign in or register to get started.

Climate change – the political divide – politicalbetting.com

245678

Comments

  • Eabhal said:

    .

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    The TfL website states:
    "Petrol cars that meet the ULEZ standards are generally those first registered with the DVLA after 2005, although cars that meet the standards have been available since 2001
    Diesel cars that meet the standards are generally those first registered with the DVLA after September 2015."
    The RAC website states that:
    "At 8.4 years old (the average age of cars on UK roads is) the highest since records began in 2000, with almost 10 million vehicles from 2008 and earlier still in action. The average car was built in 2011."
    In the last week I have only seen five cars to which the charge will apply, and two of those were diesel.
    How on earth have the Conservatives made this such a big issue?

    "This policy only targets some people so why is it an issue".

    Would you think that if the policy were something like Section 28?
    Non-ULEZ compliant car ownership is not a protected characteristic under the Equality Act 2010.

    I can't see any reference to ULEZ in Magna Carta either.
    Section 28 didn't violate the Equality Act 2010 either.

    I still opposed it [not when introduced, far too young for that, but when I found out about it] and was glad it was repealed.

    I oppose picking on minorities not because its against the law, but because its generally the wrong thing to do.

    Now saying that you want to do something because its the right thing to do, despite harming a minority, then that is reasonable. Saying that something is right, because it only harms a minority, that is not.
    Do you think ULEZ non-compliant car ownership should be a protected characteristic?
    No.

    Do you think minorities without protected characteristics should be fair game for abuse?
    A person driving a 10 year old diesel in London is not a "minority" the way you are trying to position it. The S28 comparison is a long way from sanity.
    A person who needs to drive but drives an old vehicle and can't afford to replace their vehicle absolutely is a minority in London.

    Taxing them and encouraging a replacement in their vehicle may be the right thing to do, I've said that all along, but simply because they're a minority doesn't make it right. If its right, it'd still be right, even if they were a majority. And if its wrong, its still wrong, even if they're a minority.
    You compared diesel drivers to gay people being persecuted by the state. As you say, "its wrong".

    There is more cash being made available for transitioning vehicles for the few who are involved. And again again, these cars are wholly unsuitable mechanically for the "daily driver" doing an average short commute in London. Diesels are not designed for repeated short trips - they break.

    So a car a decade old or more being driven on trips that will progressively wreck the engine. People will need to change their cars anyway. How did people who can't afford to replace their vehicles do so when they got old and knackered before ULEZ? You talk like this is something new and dangerous.
    No I didn't. Improve your reading comprehension.

    I compared an attitude displayed by @strawbrick saying essentially "so what, its only a minority affected" with other times minorities have been picked on by the state.

    Picking on minorities because they're minorities is not normally reasonable.

    If ULEZ is right because its the right thing to do then that is reasonable. If the only defence for it is "it only harms a minority" then that is not a defence. Harming minorities because they're minorities is not OK. Harming them because its the right thing to do is a different matter.

    Over time people with old vehicles will replace their vehicles, yes. Which is why targeting new vehicles with higher standards is normally the right thing to do.

    However a person who can only afford an old vehicle won't generally replace their old vehicle with a new one. They will typically replace it with another old, just somewhat less-old option as others sell off their vehicle to get a new one.

    An 8 year old car in good working order is not something that is broken down and needs replacing yet.
    Many policies are going to help some and harm others. Does the number of people helped and the number of people harmed matter?
    Speed limits "harm" millions of people each year, and save only a few thousand lives.

    BR's concern for "minorities" suddenly dissipates.
    Eh?

    You're kind of proving my point, I'm OK with speed limits for that purpose.

    Harming the majority a little each to help a minority a lot is generally more the state's responsibility than it is to harm minorities a lot in order to help the majority a little.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,393
    edited August 2023
    Nigelb said:

    Carnyx said:

    Nigelb said:

    The two should be honoured for their principle.

    At least two people said to have declined resignation honours from Liz Truss
    Ex-prime minister seeking to hand out peerages and other honours but one person reportedly felt too ‘humiliated’ to accept anything
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/aug/06/at-least-two-people-said-to-have-declined-resignation-honours-from-liz-truss

    If you are a grifter then the bauble outlasts the outcry. And if the people decrying the bauble are people who's opinion you do not respect then what does it matter?

    So yes, the people saying no are truly above the grifter spivocracy that has infested the Conservative Party. Did we hear of Boris! nominees turning him down for similar reasons?
    Trying to get my head around the idea that people ought to be honoured for refusing honours ... doesn't say much for the honours system, does it?
    That's indeed the point.
    The lack of self-respect [edit] amongst the accepters astounds me - at all levels of the insanely hierarchical system. It's an insult to those offered a BEM for a lifetime of real contribution that a 30yo can get a near lifetime of pampered subsidy for a few years' partisan work. In fact, I'd say that a BEM is an insult full stop.

    A Prince can mak a belted knight,
    A marquis, duke, an a that!
    But an honest man’s aboon his might –
    Guid faith, he mauna fa that!
    For a that, an a that,
    Their dignities, an a that,
    The pith o Sense an pride o Worth
    Are higher rank than a that.
  • theProle said:

    Its amazing that as we experience yet another year of significant climate change being visible and directly destructive that we have to debate this thing. It exists, it's here, denial is like denying the Earth is round.

    The world is in transition away from the petrodollar economy to the sustainable economy - that is also self-evident. The response to supply shocks is to accelerate the technologies which make us less reliant on the energy which had the shock.

    I know that some people have a libertarian streak and that is their choice. But personal freedom isn't universal. When rights trample on others they are not rights. And society collectively has the right to impose rules and standards on how we behave.

    Motoring is trying to be a thing politically. "I demand my right to drive a polluting car on the grounds of liberty!" But we have removed your right to drink and drive. Or not wear a seatbelt. Or use leaded fuel. The push against diesel engines has reduced the percentage of cars sold to less than 10% being diesel. It will soon be zero as manufacturers withdraw them from sale as not being economical.

    How we adequately compensate the few people caught on the fringe of this change is the issue, not the change itself. And if you drive a 10 year old diesel on a 4 mile daily commute in London you're going to want to change the car anyway. It will break.

    You do talk a lot of nonsense sometimes - this is a prime example:

    And if you drive a 10 year old diesel on a 4 mile daily commute in London you're going to want to change the car anyway. It will break.

    Unless London has a special magical effect on diesel reliability in some way, this statement is complete nonsense. I currently run a 14 year old diesel car, on a 50 mile commute plus quite a bit of other mileage (Google says I did 2309 miles in July, that's not unusual), and it's a model of reliability. Just because your snobby Tesla has been value engineered to go pop at about 10 years old doesn't mean that applies to everything else.
    Incidentally, the current fuel cost per mile of running my diesel (10-11p/mile) is comparable to the cost of charging your electric car at home, and a fraction of the cost of running an electric car on public chargers. And I've no real depreciation costs as my diesel cost me less than £1k on the road. If your Tesla with a probable life (you seem to think) of ten years cost you £50k new, that's £13.69 every single day of it's life just in depreciation. If I lived in the utter dump that is London, it would actually be cheaper to keep the diesel and pay the ULEZ charge. Which does show that ULEZ is a tax on the poor and/or prudent as even if I was to do as they want and buy a Tesla I'd actually be worse off.

    Motoring is trying to be a thing politically. "I demand my right to drive a polluting car on the grounds of liberty!" But we have removed your right to drink and drive. Or not wear a seatbelt. Or use leaded fuel. The push against diesel engines has reduced the percentage of cars sold to less than 10% being diesel. It will soon be zero as manufacturers withdraw them from sale as not being economical.

    So the problem is solved anyway as manufacturers are stopping selling diesel cars (although the Euro 6 stuff is generally cleaner than the equivalent petrol, and miles better on Co2). All that ULEZ type scheme do is accelerate this process by 5 years or so, by very unfairly dumping the entire cost onto a modest subset of drivers.

    Of course, those of us with brains realize that it's important to stop the sort of thing now even though it doesn't affect us, because "if you tolerate this, your children will be next" - if we let them get away with ULEZ now, it will be ZEZs imposed in city centres before we know it, and ULEZ's covering the whole country.
    Fabulous post. I talk about people doing a short commute - which breaks diesel engines - and you post an example of a long commute which hasn't broken your engine. You do 27k miles a year (if your July mileage is average). That is a world away from the alleged poor nurse in Uxbridge using her diesel car to drive a few miles to the hospital and back each day.

    I believe the phrase that pays is 'You do talk a lot of nonsense sometimes - this is a prime example"
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,958
    What a ridiculous VAR decision.
  • Cicero said:

    What slightly puzzles me about Sunak´s attack on the long standing consensus that significantly restrictive green policies are necessary, is the very poor politics of his position.

    The fact is that there is a major strand of Tory support that firmly supports the principle of acting on climate change, even if they are not settled on policy details. These are core supporters of the Party, not strictly the "old maids bicycling to Communion" but certainly socially active Tories; the kind who staff Citizens Advice Bureaux, serve as local councilors or as in some other local capacity such as school governors charities or even magistrates. Many view with concern the financial position of their children or grandchildren but are equivocal about the inheritance tax situation. They raise money for local hospitals, they see the daily pressure on the NHS is not a myth.

    Increasingly they no longer view the Tories as "their party". Strident right wingers they are not, and while their natural moderation made them abhor Corbyn, increasingly they view the Daily Mail, Trumpian style hostility expressed by the likes of Braverman, Patel and even Sunak himself as hostility directed towards them- and as they watch public services dissolve into a shambles, they are increasingly not sitting on the sidelines any more.

    Every Liberal Democrat branch in the country can tell you of these former Conservatives now coming out to campaign for the Lib Dems. This abandonment of a major plank of the green agenda will turn this trickle into something a lot bigger. Places like Surrey, Gloucestershire and Aberdeenshire are seeing the Lib Dems not only running things locally, but now looking like making major progress in the national battle too.

    This green U-turn by Sunak could be the final mistake that alienates the Shires from the Tories for the last time.

    I understand the rationale. Sunak is in very deep water with sharks (MPs set to lose their seats) circling beneath him. Then suddenly he can claim that he has a Bigger Boat - they held a seat! So if we replicate the same campaign everywhere then we could hold a lot of seats!

    Problem is that holding Uxbridge is something that should happen even with them being battered. And the supposed miracle policy idea doesn't affect most people. And the question remains how they would replicate the £000s of k social media spam campaign which swung Uxbridge on a national scale.
  • MiklosvarMiklosvar Posts: 1,855
    Cookie said:

    Miklosvar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Miklosvar said:

    It is AUTUMN this morning, speaking of climate. Mist in the valleys, heavy dew to the west of hedges, full sized red apples on the trees. Lovely.

    This is late summer ! We've not hit the equinox or September yet.
    You been outside yet this morning? Autumn is a feel, not a calendar thing.

    Nights notably drawing in, too.
    Summer still very much here in West Cornwall. Swimming in the sea yesterday, sans wetsuit. Bracing, but enjoyable. This was last night:

    I'm about 10 miles from Ashbury where you were the other day.
  • Cicero said:

    What slightly puzzles me about Sunak´s attack on the long standing consensus that significantly restrictive green policies are necessary, is the very poor politics of his position.

    The fact is that there is a major strand of Tory support that firmly supports the principle of acting on climate change, even if they are not settled on policy details. These are core supporters of the Party, not strictly the "old maids bicycling to Communion" but certainly socially active Tories; the kind who staff Citizens Advice Bureaux, serve as local councilors or as in some other local capacity such as school governors charities or even magistrates. Many view with concern the financial position of their children or grandchildren but are equivocal about the inheritance tax situation. They raise money for local hospitals, they see the daily pressure on the NHS is not a myth.

    Increasingly they no longer view the Tories as "their party". Strident right wingers they are not, and while their natural moderation made them abhor Corbyn, increasingly they view the Daily Mail, Trumpian style hostility expressed by the likes of Braverman, Patel and even Sunak himself as hostility directed towards them- and as they watch public services dissolve into a shambles, they are increasingly not sitting on the sidelines any more.

    Every Liberal Democrat branch in the country can tell you of these former Conservatives now coming out to campaign for the Lib Dems. This abandonment of a major plank of the green agenda will turn this trickle into something a lot bigger. Places like Surrey, Gloucestershire and Aberdeenshire are seeing the Lib Dems not only running things locally, but now looking like making major progress in the national battle too.

    This green U-turn by Sunak could be the final mistake that alienates the Shires from the Tories for the last time.

    I understand the rationale. Sunak is in very deep water with sharks (MPs set to lose their seats) circling beneath him. Then suddenly he can claim that he has a Bigger Boat - they held a seat! So if we replicate the same campaign everywhere then we could hold a lot of seats!

    Problem is that holding Uxbridge is something that should happen even with them being battered. And the supposed miracle policy idea doesn't affect most people. And the question remains how they would replicate the £000s of k social media spam campaign which swung Uxbridge on a national scale.
    We also have to allow for the chunk of the Conservative Party that has wanted to dump greenery all along. No wonder they have leapt on the relative success of the Uxbridge campaign with the enthusiasm of Boris Johnson leaping on [REDACTED].

    Basically it's those on the right who wish-believe that the UK is much more like the USA or Australia than it actually is. And who haven't noticed that one of the decisive features of the last Australian election was the success of Teal Independents, who are a similar demographic to the blue wall switchers. Liberal Democrats aren't quite the same, but they will do.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,606
    *humble cough*

    Camden is basically the most competitive place on earth

    “Camden was considered to have a cultural life that would be attractive to entrepreneurs, along with the transport, skilled workers and homes needed to support high-wage employees.

    “In some regards, Camden, with its cultural amenities and bohemian flavour, might be regarded as the archetypical locality that would attract the HIGH SKILLED CREATIVE CLASSES who not only innovate themselves, but also create an environment that is attractive to other high skilled groups,” the authors said.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/aug/07/london-south-east-competitiveness-index-investors
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,606
    Leon said:

    *humble cough*

    Camden is basically the most competitive place on earth

    “Camden was considered to have a cultural life that would be attractive to entrepreneurs, along with the transport, skilled workers and homes needed to support high-wage employees.

    “In some regards, Camden, with its cultural amenities and bohemian flavour, might be regarded as the archetypical locality that would attract the HIGH SKILLED CREATIVE CLASSES who not only innovate themselves, but also create an environment that is attractive to other high skilled groups,” the authors said.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/aug/07/london-south-east-competitiveness-index-investors

    TLDR: coz you can find me chatting away over Verdejo in the York and Albany, everyone in the world wants to live here
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,900
    Cookie said:

    Miklosvar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Miklosvar said:

    It is AUTUMN this morning, speaking of climate. Mist in the valleys, heavy dew to the west of hedges, full sized red apples on the trees. Lovely.

    This is late summer ! We've not hit the equinox or September yet.
    You been outside yet this morning? Autumn is a feel, not a calendar thing.

    Nights notably drawing in, too.
    Summer still very much here in West Cornwall. Swimming in the sea yesterday, sans wetsuit. Bracing, but enjoyable. This was last night:

    Nice. I was in south east Cornwall last week. The weather wasn't great but it still felt like summer. The sea was quite warm I thought - we did loads of body boarding sans wetsuit, there were some great waves. Then we were up on the West Coast of Scotland at the weekend. Lovely long summer evening on Saturday but sunset in London felt early last night as a result. Midges still bastards.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 13,215

    Cookie said:

    Miklosvar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Miklosvar said:

    It is AUTUMN this morning, speaking of climate. Mist in the valleys, heavy dew to the west of hedges, full sized red apples on the trees. Lovely.

    This is late summer ! We've not hit the equinox or September yet.
    You been outside yet this morning? Autumn is a feel, not a calendar thing.

    Nights notably drawing in, too.
    Summer still very much here in West Cornwall. Swimming in the sea yesterday, sans wetsuit. Bracing, but enjoyable. This was last night:

    Nice. I was in south east Cornwall last week. The weather wasn't great but it still felt like summer. The sea was quite warm I thought - we did loads of body boarding sans wetsuit, there were some great waves. Then we were up on the West Coast of Scotland at the weekend. Lovely long summer evening on Saturday but sunset in London felt early last night as a result. Midges still bastards.
    Down to 6.6C at the vineyard last night. Season of mists and mellow fruitfulness.
    Counting down the shopping days until Christmas now.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,987

    Cicero said:

    What slightly puzzles me about Sunak´s attack on the long standing consensus that significantly restrictive green policies are necessary, is the very poor politics of his position.

    The fact is that there is a major strand of Tory support that firmly supports the principle of acting on climate change, even if they are not settled on policy details. These are core supporters of the Party, not strictly the "old maids bicycling to Communion" but certainly socially active Tories; the kind who staff Citizens Advice Bureaux, serve as local councilors or as in some other local capacity such as school governors charities or even magistrates. Many view with concern the financial position of their children or grandchildren but are equivocal about the inheritance tax situation. They raise money for local hospitals, they see the daily pressure on the NHS is not a myth.

    Increasingly they no longer view the Tories as "their party". Strident right wingers they are not, and while their natural moderation made them abhor Corbyn, increasingly they view the Daily Mail, Trumpian style hostility expressed by the likes of Braverman, Patel and even Sunak himself as hostility directed towards them- and as they watch public services dissolve into a shambles, they are increasingly not sitting on the sidelines any more.

    Every Liberal Democrat branch in the country can tell you of these former Conservatives now coming out to campaign for the Lib Dems. This abandonment of a major plank of the green agenda will turn this trickle into something a lot bigger. Places like Surrey, Gloucestershire and Aberdeenshire are seeing the Lib Dems not only running things locally, but now looking like making major progress in the national battle too.

    This green U-turn by Sunak could be the final mistake that alienates the Shires from the Tories for the last time.

    I understand the rationale. Sunak is in very deep water with sharks (MPs set to lose their seats) circling beneath him. Then suddenly he can claim that he has a Bigger Boat - they held a seat! So if we replicate the same campaign everywhere then we could hold a lot of seats!

    Problem is that holding Uxbridge is something that should happen even with them being battered. And the supposed miracle policy idea doesn't affect most people. And the question remains how they would replicate the £000s of k social media spam campaign which swung Uxbridge on a national scale.
    We also have to allow for the chunk of the Conservative Party that has wanted to dump greenery all along. No wonder they have leapt on the relative success of the Uxbridge campaign with the enthusiasm of Boris Johnson leaping on [REDACTED].

    Basically it's those on the right who wish-believe that the UK is much more like the USA or Australia than it actually is. And who haven't noticed that one of the decisive features of the last Australian election was the success of Teal Independents, who are a similar demographic to the blue wall switchers. Liberal Democrats aren't quite the same, but they will do.
    In 2019 though Morrison won when virtually every poll said he would lose and even in 2022 Morrison actually won on first preference votes 35% to 32% for Albanese's Labor, even if Labour won 52% to 48% on 2PP and won a small majority overall.

    Yes the Coalition lost some wealthy suburbs to Independents but they also held some working class suburban seats and won rural areas convincingly
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,987
    Cicero said:

    What slightly puzzles me about Sunak´s attack on the long standing consensus that significantly restrictive green policies are necessary, is the very poor politics of his position.

    The fact is that there is a major strand of Tory support that firmly supports the principle of acting on climate change, even if they are not settled on policy details. These are core supporters of the Party, not strictly the "old maids bicycling to Communion" but certainly socially active Tories; the kind who staff Citizens Advice Bureaux, serve as local councilors or as in some other local capacity such as school governors charities or even magistrates. Many view with concern the financial position of their children or grandchildren but are equivocal about the inheritance tax situation. They raise money for local hospitals, they see the daily pressure on the NHS is not a myth.

    Increasingly they no longer view the Tories as "their party". Strident right wingers they are not, and while their natural moderation made them abhor Corbyn, increasingly they view the Daily Mail, Trumpian style hostility expressed by the likes of Braverman, Patel and even Sunak himself as hostility directed towards them- and as they watch public services dissolve into a shambles, they are increasingly not sitting on the sidelines any more.

    Every Liberal Democrat branch in the country can tell you of these former Conservatives now coming out to campaign for the Lib Dems. This abandonment of a major plank of the green agenda will turn this trickle into something a lot bigger. Places like Surrey, Gloucestershire and Aberdeenshire are seeing the Lib Dems not only running things locally, but now looking like making major progress in the national battle too.

    This green U-turn by Sunak could be the final mistake that alienates the Shires from the Tories for the last time.

    A handful of upper middle class Remain voting areas of the Shires in the most prosperous parts of Oxfordshire, Surrey and Hertfordshire maybe. However remember even the South East Shires voted majority Leave in 2016, they aren't any more socially liberal and pro climate taxes than the national average and Tory voters there certainly aren't
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,900
    Cicero said:

    What slightly puzzles me about Sunak´s attack on the long standing consensus that significantly restrictive green policies are necessary, is the very poor politics of his position.

    The fact is that there is a major strand of Tory support that firmly supports the principle of acting on climate change, even if they are not settled on policy details. These are core supporters of the Party, not strictly the "old maids bicycling to Communion" but certainly socially active Tories; the kind who staff Citizens Advice Bureaux, serve as local councilors or as in some other local capacity such as school governors charities or even magistrates. Many view with concern the financial position of their children or grandchildren but are equivocal about the inheritance tax situation. They raise money for local hospitals, they see the daily pressure on the NHS is not a myth.

    Increasingly they no longer view the Tories as "their party". Strident right wingers they are not, and while their natural moderation made them abhor Corbyn, increasingly they view the Daily Mail, Trumpian style hostility expressed by the likes of Braverman, Patel and even Sunak himself as hostility directed towards them- and as they watch public services dissolve into a shambles, they are increasingly not sitting on the sidelines any more.

    Every Liberal Democrat branch in the country can tell you of these former Conservatives now coming out to campaign for the Lib Dems. This abandonment of a major plank of the green agenda will turn this trickle into something a lot bigger. Places like Surrey, Gloucestershire and Aberdeenshire are seeing the Lib Dems not only running things locally, but now looking like making major progress in the national battle too.

    This green U-turn by Sunak could be the final mistake that alienates the Shires from the Tories for the last time.

    It's a core vote strategy designed to prevent a total Tory wipe out, aimed at winning the next but one or two elections not the next one.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,411
    eek said:

    Nigelb said:

    ‘Up all night worrying’: 92-year-old debanked by NatWest after move to Jamaica
    Last year’s decision left Philip Cato, who moved ‘home’ in 1990s after 30 years working in the UK, cut off from his state pension
    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/aug/06/92-year-old-debanked-natwest-jamaica

    He’s not lived in the UK for 30 years. Why should any bank be required to give him a bank account…
    ...which is not a reason for removing one that he already has.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,900
    TimS said:

    Cookie said:

    Miklosvar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Miklosvar said:

    It is AUTUMN this morning, speaking of climate. Mist in the valleys, heavy dew to the west of hedges, full sized red apples on the trees. Lovely.

    This is late summer ! We've not hit the equinox or September yet.
    You been outside yet this morning? Autumn is a feel, not a calendar thing.

    Nights notably drawing in, too.
    Summer still very much here in West Cornwall. Swimming in the sea yesterday, sans wetsuit. Bracing, but enjoyable. This was last night:

    Nice. I was in south east Cornwall last week. The weather wasn't great but it still felt like summer. The sea was quite warm I thought - we did loads of body boarding sans wetsuit, there were some great waves. Then we were up on the West Coast of Scotland at the weekend. Lovely long summer evening on Saturday but sunset in London felt early last night as a result. Midges still bastards.
    Down to 6.6C at the vineyard last night. Season of mists and mellow fruitfulness.
    Counting down the shopping days until Christmas now.
    I've just come back from my summer holidays, please don't depress me further.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,718
    Good Morning everyone!

    Bright sun and blue skies here this morning!

    People’s commutes do vary. My son once bought quite an elderly (petrol) car with a mileage which demonstrated quite clearly the owners claim that he’d only used it for his daily commute.
    Son used it for his journeys to and from Uni for four years, one of which was in S. Germany and it worked fine.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,606
    Latest from the LONDON IS BACK desk

    Traders moving to our fair capital because war



  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,234
    Andy_JS said:

    What a ridiculous VAR decision.

    Not sure. I don't think I'd have given it.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,606
    This summer is the first time I’ve felt that London is SERIOUSLY recovering from the twin blows of Covid and Brexit

    It might partly be because I’ve travelled so much - and I’ve seen how fucked everywhere else is

    Nonetheless my usual “London is back” cheerleading has a bit more conviction about it, than normal
  • TimSTimS Posts: 13,215
    HYUFD said:

    Cicero said:

    What slightly puzzles me about Sunak´s attack on the long standing consensus that significantly restrictive green policies are necessary, is the very poor politics of his position.

    The fact is that there is a major strand of Tory support that firmly supports the principle of acting on climate change, even if they are not settled on policy details. These are core supporters of the Party, not strictly the "old maids bicycling to Communion" but certainly socially active Tories; the kind who staff Citizens Advice Bureaux, serve as local councilors or as in some other local capacity such as school governors charities or even magistrates. Many view with concern the financial position of their children or grandchildren but are equivocal about the inheritance tax situation. They raise money for local hospitals, they see the daily pressure on the NHS is not a myth.

    Increasingly they no longer view the Tories as "their party". Strident right wingers they are not, and while their natural moderation made them abhor Corbyn, increasingly they view the Daily Mail, Trumpian style hostility expressed by the likes of Braverman, Patel and even Sunak himself as hostility directed towards them- and as they watch public services dissolve into a shambles, they are increasingly not sitting on the sidelines any more.

    Every Liberal Democrat branch in the country can tell you of these former Conservatives now coming out to campaign for the Lib Dems. This abandonment of a major plank of the green agenda will turn this trickle into something a lot bigger. Places like Surrey, Gloucestershire and Aberdeenshire are seeing the Lib Dems not only running things locally, but now looking like making major progress in the national battle too.

    This green U-turn by Sunak could be the final mistake that alienates the Shires from the Tories for the last time.

    A handful of upper middle class Remain voting areas of the Shires in the most prosperous parts of Oxfordshire, Surrey and Hertfordshire maybe. However remember even the South East Shires voted majority Leave in 2016, they aren't any more socially liberal and pro climate taxes than the national average and Tory voters there certainly aren't
    You're making the mistake of assuming all socially conservative people are climate libertarians. Aside from the fact we're not America or Australia, that is far from the truth. Support for climate mitigation policies does not mirror the Brexit vote so if you think the only people who are going to be concerned are blue wall remainers I think you'll be surprised.

    The header itself demonstrates there really isn't much difference between Tory and Labour/Lib Dem voters on this subject, far less than there is on issues like migration or the EU.

    Attacking disruptive protests is one thing, but when the conservatives turn against what people perceive as nature conservation or good stewardship of the land they get punished by their core vote: remember conservationism often manifests as NIMBYism. The international embarrassment of the Sunderland triathlon poisonings this weekend should remind them it's a dangerous road, trodden long before by a Tory government during the BSE crisis. Once Lib Dem leaflets start conflating water quality and sewage with government pronouncements on other environmental regulations they're going to end up in the shit.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 13,215

    TimS said:

    Cookie said:

    Miklosvar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Miklosvar said:

    It is AUTUMN this morning, speaking of climate. Mist in the valleys, heavy dew to the west of hedges, full sized red apples on the trees. Lovely.

    This is late summer ! We've not hit the equinox or September yet.
    You been outside yet this morning? Autumn is a feel, not a calendar thing.

    Nights notably drawing in, too.
    Summer still very much here in West Cornwall. Swimming in the sea yesterday, sans wetsuit. Bracing, but enjoyable. This was last night:

    Nice. I was in south east Cornwall last week. The weather wasn't great but it still felt like summer. The sea was quite warm I thought - we did loads of body boarding sans wetsuit, there were some great waves. Then we were up on the West Coast of Scotland at the weekend. Lovely long summer evening on Saturday but sunset in London felt early last night as a result. Midges still bastards.
    Down to 6.6C at the vineyard last night. Season of mists and mellow fruitfulness.
    Counting down the shopping days until Christmas now.
    I've just come back from my summer holidays, please don't depress me further.
    My summer holiday is now in October thanks to the last minute cancellation after my rib injury. Though not sure the weather's going to be quite so summery in Georgia in mid October.

    One of my colleagues has a good plan: she goes on a 2 week main holiday right after the schools break up, but they always have a short 5 day break somewhere relaxing right at the end of the holidays, so there's still something to look forward to.
  • theProletheProle Posts: 1,226
    edited August 2023

    theProle said:

    Its amazing that as we experience yet another year of significant climate change being visible and directly destructive that we have to debate this thing. It exists, it's here, denial is like denying the Earth is round.

    The world is in transition away from the petrodollar economy to the sustainable economy - that is also self-evident. The response to supply shocks is to accelerate the technologies which make us less reliant on the energy which had the shock.

    I know that some people have a libertarian streak and that is their choice. But personal freedom isn't universal. When rights trample on others they are not rights. And society collectively has the right to impose rules and standards on how we behave.

    Motoring is trying to be a thing politically. "I demand my right to drive a polluting car on the grounds of liberty!" But we have removed your right to drink and drive. Or not wear a seatbelt. Or use leaded fuel. The push against diesel engines has reduced the percentage of cars sold to less than 10% being diesel. It will soon be zero as manufacturers withdraw them from sale as not being economical.

    How we adequately compensate the few people caught on the fringe of this change is the issue, not the change itself. And if you drive a 10 year old diesel on a 4 mile daily commute in London you're going to want to change the car anyway. It will break.

    You do talk a lot of nonsense sometimes - this is a prime example:

    And if you drive a 10 year old diesel on a 4 mile daily commute in London you're going to want to change the car anyway. It will break.

    Unless London has a special magical effect on diesel reliability in some way, this statement is complete nonsense. I currently run a 14 year old diesel car, on a 50 mile commute plus quite a bit of other mileage (Google says I did 2309 miles in July, that's not unusual), and it's a model of reliability. Just because your snobby Tesla has been value engineered to go pop at about 10 years old doesn't mean that applies to everything else.
    Incidentally, the current fuel cost per mile of running my diesel (10-11p/mile) is comparable to the cost of charging your electric car at home, and a fraction of the cost of running an electric car on public chargers. And I've no real depreciation costs as my diesel cost me less than £1k on the road. If your Tesla with a probable life (you seem to think) of ten years cost you £50k new, that's £13.69 every single day of it's life just in depreciation. If I lived in the utter dump that is London, it would actually be cheaper to keep the diesel and pay the ULEZ charge. Which does show that ULEZ is a tax on the poor and/or prudent as even if I was to do as they want and buy a Tesla I'd actually be worse off.

    Motoring is trying to be a thing politically. "I demand my right to drive a polluting car on the grounds of liberty!" But we have removed your right to drink and drive. Or not wear a seatbelt. Or use leaded fuel. The push against diesel engines has reduced the percentage of cars sold to less than 10% being diesel. It will soon be zero as manufacturers withdraw them from sale as not being economical.

    So the problem is solved anyway as manufacturers are stopping selling diesel cars (although the Euro 6 stuff is generally cleaner than the equivalent petrol, and miles better on Co2). All that ULEZ type scheme do is accelerate this process by 5 years or so, by very unfairly dumping the entire cost onto a modest subset of drivers.

    Of course, those of us with brains realize that it's important to stop the sort of thing now even though it doesn't affect us, because "if you tolerate this, your children will be next" - if we let them get away with ULEZ now, it will be ZEZs imposed in city centres before we know it, and ULEZ's covering the whole country.
    Fabulous post. I talk about people doing a short commute - which breaks diesel engines - and you post an example of a long commute which hasn't broken your engine. You do 27k miles a year (if your July mileage is average). That is a world away from the alleged poor nurse in Uxbridge using her diesel car to drive a few miles to the hospital and back each day.

    I believe the phrase that pays is 'You do talk a lot of nonsense sometimes - this is a prime example"
    Where do you get the idea that short commutes break diesel engines from? Possibly less than a mile of open road might be a bad idea (although in traffic it's less of an issue, as the warmup is partly a function of time), but mine is running at full operating temperature in under 2 miles from my house, provided the engine gets fully warmed up it's not really an issue. Granted you'll possibly get DPF issues if you never do any longer runs, but if the commute is only 4 miles, you probably only need to do one decent run a fortnight for it to keep regening fine.

    It does depend a bit what system is fitted - not all early DPF units are equal, e.g. taking VW Passats cos I know a bit about them, if you've a PD engine car which has the misfortune to have a DPF it won't stand this treatment, but that's a fairly small group of cars (most PD engined ones have no DPF). The EA189 powered Passats (late 2008 on) give very little trouble on the DPF, and when it does eventually fill up a new one is only about £300.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,606
    TimS said:

    TimS said:

    Cookie said:

    Miklosvar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Miklosvar said:

    It is AUTUMN this morning, speaking of climate. Mist in the valleys, heavy dew to the west of hedges, full sized red apples on the trees. Lovely.

    This is late summer ! We've not hit the equinox or September yet.
    You been outside yet this morning? Autumn is a feel, not a calendar thing.

    Nights notably drawing in, too.
    Summer still very much here in West Cornwall. Swimming in the sea yesterday, sans wetsuit. Bracing, but enjoyable. This was last night:

    Nice. I was in south east Cornwall last week. The weather wasn't great but it still felt like summer. The sea was quite warm I thought - we did loads of body boarding sans wetsuit, there were some great waves. Then we were up on the West Coast of Scotland at the weekend. Lovely long summer evening on Saturday but sunset in London felt early last night as a result. Midges still bastards.
    Down to 6.6C at the vineyard last night. Season of mists and mellow fruitfulness.
    Counting down the shopping days until Christmas now.
    I've just come back from my summer holidays, please don't depress me further.
    My summer holiday is now in October thanks to the last minute cancellation after my rib injury. Though not sure the weather's going to be quite so summery in Georgia in mid October.

    One of my colleagues has a good plan: she goes on a 2 week main holiday right after the schools break up, but they always have a short 5 day break somewhere relaxing right at the end of the holidays, so there's still something to look forward to.
    Tbilisi is horribly hot in high summer. Look:




    That’s not fun. Especially as so many of the fascinating old buildings don’t have aircon

    October will be much nicer. Clear dry days with highs of 20-22C. Perfect for sightseeing and exploring the little towns nearby

    It will be bitter in the Caucasus mountains, however
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,234
    Just got 7.8 on Nigeria to win - much too long, surely?
  • GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,860
    Nigelb said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    The BBC's story into the 'Irish Light' paper and anti-vaxxers is quite something.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-66424582

    The mare-eyed, tiresome people behind these ‘media’ all appear remarkably similar.

    Nonetheless, I don’t think the dangers of the conspiratorial extremes are taken seriously enough. In an age of diverse media (including news) consumption, the ‘left behind’ can find easy succour in the fringes; much more easily than even a decade ago. It creates a sizeable minority of people for whom mistrust of the state - which can be anything from the PM to a teaching assistant, depending what your axe to grind is - the ‘MSM’ and large institutions simply becomes axiomatic. That’s a legitimate threat to democracy.

    Honestly, I think there’s a touch of arrogance in media and politics that these people are all crackpots and therefore people who follow them are morons. They aren’t. I have a QAnon follower in my family - he is otherwise a bright and compassionate person, but his mistrust of the mainstream brought him into that world.

    Mistrust of authority is quite often justified (Post Office, Met Police, I mean the list is very large). The idea of wrapping that diffuse mistrust into a neat package (even one that collapses at the most basic scrutiny) is seductive.

    I don’t know what the answer is. But it does bother me.
    Agreed. Every week, we see crackpot conspiracy theories repeated by some regular posters here. These sorts of beliefs get everywhere.
    I think we tend to underestimate the value of the gatekeeper function that the media performed in pre social media days. Of course the media have had some terrible biases and printed some crap in their time, but nothing on the scale of the garbage and lunacy peddled by social media. I think that younger generations are a bit more savvy about what they read online than older people, who are more trusting having been raised in an old media world, but I'm not super confident that this problem won't continue to get worse.
    The interesting question as ever is who is spreading this stuff? There do seem to be well-financed misinformation campaigns at work (eg around ULEZ) that someone is paying for. It is plausible that enemies of Western liberal democracy are poisoning the well of informed rational debate that allows it to function. Or is that a conspiracy theory in itself?
    I think there were always people who believed stupid crap/conspiracy theories. The antivaxx movement has been going as long as vaccines, for example. And in earlier times, media, like newspapers, spread this nonsense (as with anti-Catholic propaganda in the early US). But social media has made the spread of those views easier.

    So, sure, there are deliberate misinformation campaigns, but they’re only part of the problem.
    There's also a pyramid scheme element to it.
    Those towards the top, who get enough followers (like RFK Jr.), can make a very good living off of it.
    Talk radio in the US has been at it for decades as well, and little publishers published hate tracts for mailing lists too. Often people are making money off it - Alex Jones was selling his funny pills and supplements too.

    Easy to forget now but the KKK, in its various forms, was an influential force in parts of American society for a century or more. I feel like there is something particular to the culture of the US that makes it particularly fertile ground for conspiracies - but there again, that might just be a form of confirmation bias on my part.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,778

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    The TfL website states:
    "Petrol cars that meet the ULEZ standards are generally those first registered with the DVLA after 2005, although cars that meet the standards have been available since 2001
    Diesel cars that meet the standards are generally those first registered with the DVLA after September 2015."
    The RAC website states that:
    "At 8.4 years old (the average age of cars on UK roads is) the highest since records began in 2000, with almost 10 million vehicles from 2008 and earlier still in action. The average car was built in 2011."
    In the last week I have only seen five cars to which the charge will apply, and two of those were diesel.
    How on earth have the Conservatives made this such a big issue?

    "This policy only targets some people so why is it an issue".

    Would you think that if the policy were something like Section 28?
    Non-ULEZ compliant car ownership is not a protected characteristic under the Equality Act 2010.

    I can't see any reference to ULEZ in Magna Carta either.
    Section 28 didn't violate the Equality Act 2010 either.

    I still opposed it [not when introduced, far too young for that, but when I found out about it] and was glad it was repealed.

    I oppose picking on minorities not because its against the law, but because its generally the wrong thing to do.

    Now saying that you want to do something because its the right thing to do, despite harming a minority, then that is reasonable. Saying that something is right, because it only harms a minority, that is not.
    Do you think ULEZ non-compliant car ownership should be a protected characteristic?
    No.

    Do you think minorities without protected characteristics should be fair game for abuse?
    A person driving a 10 year old diesel in London is not a "minority" the way you are trying to position it. The S28 comparison is a long way from sanity.
    A person who needs to drive but drives an old vehicle and can't afford to replace their vehicle absolutely is a minority in London.

    Taxing them and encouraging a replacement in their vehicle may be the right thing to do, I've said that all along, but simply because they're a minority doesn't make it right. If its right, it'd still be right, even if they were a majority. And if its wrong, its still wrong, even if they're a minority.
    You compared diesel drivers to gay people being persecuted by the state. As you say, "its wrong".

    There is more cash being made available for transitioning vehicles for the few who are involved. And again again, these cars are wholly unsuitable mechanically for the "daily driver" doing an average short commute in London. Diesels are not designed for repeated short trips - they break.
    Short journeys (eg low EGT) will eventually block the DPF and/or EGR, both of which are easily fixed. They won't destroy the engine.

    Having said that, plenty of people will bail out of a car and get shot once it has a check engine light.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,256
    If the Belarus armed forces regularly subject themselves to this:
    https://twitter.com/bayraktar_1love/status/1687612354215763968

    Then this sort of stuff is hardly a surprise
    https://twitter.com/SkyAboveUkraine/status/1687857746073260033
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,964
    Good morning, everyone.

    Mr. Ghedebrav, the USA's two party politics makes it more susceptible to polarisation (which may play into conspiracy theories) because to be pro- one side is almost the same as being anti- the other.
  • kamskikamski Posts: 5,208
    TimS said:

    HYUFD said:

    Cicero said:

    What slightly puzzles me about Sunak´s attack on the long standing consensus that significantly restrictive green policies are necessary, is the very poor politics of his position.

    The fact is that there is a major strand of Tory support that firmly supports the principle of acting on climate change, even if they are not settled on policy details. These are core supporters of the Party, not strictly the "old maids bicycling to Communion" but certainly socially active Tories; the kind who staff Citizens Advice Bureaux, serve as local councilors or as in some other local capacity such as school governors charities or even magistrates. Many view with concern the financial position of their children or grandchildren but are equivocal about the inheritance tax situation. They raise money for local hospitals, they see the daily pressure on the NHS is not a myth.

    Increasingly they no longer view the Tories as "their party". Strident right wingers they are not, and while their natural moderation made them abhor Corbyn, increasingly they view the Daily Mail, Trumpian style hostility expressed by the likes of Braverman, Patel and even Sunak himself as hostility directed towards them- and as they watch public services dissolve into a shambles, they are increasingly not sitting on the sidelines any more.

    Every Liberal Democrat branch in the country can tell you of these former Conservatives now coming out to campaign for the Lib Dems. This abandonment of a major plank of the green agenda will turn this trickle into something a lot bigger. Places like Surrey, Gloucestershire and Aberdeenshire are seeing the Lib Dems not only running things locally, but now looking like making major progress in the national battle too.

    This green U-turn by Sunak could be the final mistake that alienates the Shires from the Tories for the last time.

    A handful of upper middle class Remain voting areas of the Shires in the most prosperous parts of Oxfordshire, Surrey and Hertfordshire maybe. However remember even the South East Shires voted majority Leave in 2016, they aren't any more socially liberal and pro climate taxes than the national average and Tory voters there certainly aren't
    You're making the mistake of assuming all socially conservative people are climate libertarians. Aside from the fact we're not America or Australia, that is far from the truth. Support for climate mitigation policies does not mirror the Brexit vote so if you think the only people who are going to be concerned are blue wall remainers I think you'll be surprised.

    The header itself demonstrates there really isn't much difference between Tory and Labour/Lib Dem voters on this subject, far less than there is on issues like migration or the EU.

    Attacking disruptive protests is one thing, but when the conservatives turn against what people perceive as nature conservation or good stewardship of the land they get punished by their core vote: remember conservationism often manifests as NIMBYism. The international embarrassment of the Sunderland triathlon poisonings this weekend should remind them it's a dangerous road, trodden long before by a Tory government during the BSE crisis. Once Lib Dem leaflets start conflating water quality and sewage with government pronouncements on other environmental regulations they're going to end up in the shit.
    You could see the difference between conservatives and others as just an effect of conservative voters being older. Of course older people like me don't want to believe that we have screwed things up so badly for younger people.
  • Ghedebrav said:

    Nigelb said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    The BBC's story into the 'Irish Light' paper and anti-vaxxers is quite something.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-66424582

    The mare-eyed, tiresome people behind these ‘media’ all appear remarkably similar.

    Nonetheless, I don’t think the dangers of the conspiratorial extremes are taken seriously enough. In an age of diverse media (including news) consumption, the ‘left behind’ can find easy succour in the fringes; much more easily than even a decade ago. It creates a sizeable minority of people for whom mistrust of the state - which can be anything from the PM to a teaching assistant, depending what your axe to grind is - the ‘MSM’ and large institutions simply becomes axiomatic. That’s a legitimate threat to democracy.

    Honestly, I think there’s a touch of arrogance in media and politics that these people are all crackpots and therefore people who follow them are morons. They aren’t. I have a QAnon follower in my family - he is otherwise a bright and compassionate person, but his mistrust of the mainstream brought him into that world.

    Mistrust of authority is quite often justified (Post Office, Met Police, I mean the list is very large). The idea of wrapping that diffuse mistrust into a neat package (even one that collapses at the most basic scrutiny) is seductive.

    I don’t know what the answer is. But it does bother me.
    Agreed. Every week, we see crackpot conspiracy theories repeated by some regular posters here. These sorts of beliefs get everywhere.
    I think we tend to underestimate the value of the gatekeeper function that the media performed in pre social media days. Of course the media have had some terrible biases and printed some crap in their time, but nothing on the scale of the garbage and lunacy peddled by social media. I think that younger generations are a bit more savvy about what they read online than older people, who are more trusting having been raised in an old media world, but I'm not super confident that this problem won't continue to get worse.
    The interesting question as ever is who is spreading this stuff? There do seem to be well-financed misinformation campaigns at work (eg around ULEZ) that someone is paying for. It is plausible that enemies of Western liberal democracy are poisoning the well of informed rational debate that allows it to function. Or is that a conspiracy theory in itself?
    I think there were always people who believed stupid crap/conspiracy theories. The antivaxx movement has been going as long as vaccines, for example. And in earlier times, media, like newspapers, spread this nonsense (as with anti-Catholic propaganda in the early US). But social media has made the spread of those views easier.

    So, sure, there are deliberate misinformation campaigns, but they’re only part of the problem.
    There's also a pyramid scheme element to it.
    Those towards the top, who get enough followers (like RFK Jr.), can make a very good living off of it.
    Talk radio in the US has been at it for decades as well, and little publishers published hate tracts for mailing lists too. Often people are making money off it - Alex Jones was selling his funny pills and supplements too.

    Easy to forget now but the KKK, in its various forms, was an influential force in parts of American society for a century or more. I feel like there is something particular to the culture of the US that makes it particularly fertile ground for conspiracies - but there again, that might just be a form of confirmation bias on my part.
    The more that a society and/or economy are seen as structurally broken, the more people believe that something is acting against them. In the UK we have an increasing pile of things which point to organised / structured plans to control housing stock or sell everything off and not provide a basic service, or create a VIP lane where Tory patrons can create a company, immediately win 9-figure PPE contracts without tender and still get paid the money whether usable PPE is delivered or not...

    In the UK's case I don't see conspiracy, I see manipulation. We have allowed the system to be run by and on behalf of the spivocricy. Pay enough in political donations, invest enough in "impartial" think tanks and suddenly your way is the established norm. "Conspiracy" suggests a room full of spivs plotting how to do this. Doesn't happen.
  • GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,860
    Leon said:

    This summer is the first time I’ve felt that London is SERIOUSLY recovering from the twin blows of Covid and Brexit

    It might partly be because I’ve travelled so much - and I’ve seen how fucked everywhere else is

    Nonetheless my usual “London is back” cheerleading has a bit more conviction about it, than normal

    Off out in London tomorrow evening; will report back. I'm still sceptical of "London Is Back" though I v much want it to be.
  • PhilPhil Posts: 2,335

    Cicero said:

    What slightly puzzles me about Sunak´s attack on the long standing consensus that significantly restrictive green policies are necessary, is the very poor politics of his position.

    The fact is that there is a major strand of Tory support that firmly supports the principle of acting on climate change, even if they are not settled on policy details. These are core supporters of the Party, not strictly the "old maids bicycling to Communion" but certainly socially active Tories; the kind who staff Citizens Advice Bureaux, serve as local councilors or as in some other local capacity such as school governors charities or even magistrates. Many view with concern the financial position of their children or grandchildren but are equivocal about the inheritance tax situation. They raise money for local hospitals, they see the daily pressure on the NHS is not a myth.

    Increasingly they no longer view the Tories as "their party". Strident right wingers they are not, and while their natural moderation made them abhor Corbyn, increasingly they view the Daily Mail, Trumpian style hostility expressed by the likes of Braverman, Patel and even Sunak himself as hostility directed towards them- and as they watch public services dissolve into a shambles, they are increasingly not sitting on the sidelines any more.

    Every Liberal Democrat branch in the country can tell you of these former Conservatives now coming out to campaign for the Lib Dems. This abandonment of a major plank of the green agenda will turn this trickle into something a lot bigger. Places like Surrey, Gloucestershire and Aberdeenshire are seeing the Lib Dems not only running things locally, but now looking like making major progress in the national battle too.

    This green U-turn by Sunak could be the final mistake that alienates the Shires from the Tories for the last time.

    It's a core vote strategy designed to prevent a total Tory wipe out, aimed at winning the next but one or two elections not the next one.
    Yup. The way things are working out the incentives for the Tories are fairly obvious - spend nothing on public services for the next eighteen months in order to force the next Labour administration to raise taxes to try and do something to staunch the losses. Because things are in such a mess anything Labour does to try and fix the deeper seated problems will likely take an entire parliamentary period to sort, if not longer.

    Which in turn means that you get to run the next campaign on a “Tax and spend Labour can’t fix your problems” message. The more you can mess things up over the next year or so the better: Worsen industrial relations & leave an unfunded public sector wage bill for the next administration to sort out when you finally cave in? Sounds great! Underfund immigration services creating an enormous backlog that will take years and years to sort through? Perfect!

    Cynical? Sure. Might work though.
  • GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,860
    Stocky said:

    Just got 7.8 on Nigeria to win - much too long, surely?

    Crikey. Super value there.
  • CiceroCicero Posts: 3,126

    Cicero said:

    What slightly puzzles me about Sunak´s attack on the long standing consensus that significantly restrictive green policies are necessary, is the very poor politics of his position.

    The fact is that there is a major strand of Tory support that firmly supports the principle of acting on climate change, even if they are not settled on policy details. These are core supporters of the Party, not strictly the "old maids bicycling to Communion" but certainly socially active Tories; the kind who staff Citizens Advice Bureaux, serve as local councilors or as in some other local capacity such as school governors charities or even magistrates. Many view with concern the financial position of their children or grandchildren but are equivocal about the inheritance tax situation. They raise money for local hospitals, they see the daily pressure on the NHS is not a myth.

    Increasingly they no longer view the Tories as "their party". Strident right wingers they are not, and while their natural moderation made them abhor Corbyn, increasingly they view the Daily Mail, Trumpian style hostility expressed by the likes of Braverman, Patel and even Sunak himself as hostility directed towards them- and as they watch public services dissolve into a shambles, they are increasingly not sitting on the sidelines any more.

    Every Liberal Democrat branch in the country can tell you of these former Conservatives now coming out to campaign for the Lib Dems. This abandonment of a major plank of the green agenda will turn this trickle into something a lot bigger. Places like Surrey, Gloucestershire and Aberdeenshire are seeing the Lib Dems not only running things locally, but now looking like making major progress in the national battle too.

    This green U-turn by Sunak could be the final mistake that alienates the Shires from the Tories for the last time.

    It's a core vote strategy designed to prevent a total Tory wipe out, aimed at winning the next but one or two elections not the next one.
    What core vote, if they have alienated the active middle class?
  • PhilPhil Posts: 2,335
    Cicero said:

    Cicero said:

    What slightly puzzles me about Sunak´s attack on the long standing consensus that significantly restrictive green policies are necessary, is the very poor politics of his position.

    The fact is that there is a major strand of Tory support that firmly supports the principle of acting on climate change, even if they are not settled on policy details. These are core supporters of the Party, not strictly the "old maids bicycling to Communion" but certainly socially active Tories; the kind who staff Citizens Advice Bureaux, serve as local councilors or as in some other local capacity such as school governors charities or even magistrates. Many view with concern the financial position of their children or grandchildren but are equivocal about the inheritance tax situation. They raise money for local hospitals, they see the daily pressure on the NHS is not a myth.

    Increasingly they no longer view the Tories as "their party". Strident right wingers they are not, and while their natural moderation made them abhor Corbyn, increasingly they view the Daily Mail, Trumpian style hostility expressed by the likes of Braverman, Patel and even Sunak himself as hostility directed towards them- and as they watch public services dissolve into a shambles, they are increasingly not sitting on the sidelines any more.

    Every Liberal Democrat branch in the country can tell you of these former Conservatives now coming out to campaign for the Lib Dems. This abandonment of a major plank of the green agenda will turn this trickle into something a lot bigger. Places like Surrey, Gloucestershire and Aberdeenshire are seeing the Lib Dems not only running things locally, but now looking like making major progress in the national battle too.

    This green U-turn by Sunak could be the final mistake that alienates the Shires from the Tories for the last time.

    It's a core vote strategy designed to prevent a total Tory wipe out, aimed at winning the next but one or two elections not the next one.
    What core vote, if they have alienated the active middle class?
    Retired pensioners.
  • VerulamiusVerulamius Posts: 1,550
    Another aspect of this reactionary approach by the Conservatives will be to promote green issues as a dividing line.

    This will increase the Green activists and their Green vote as a statement of intent.

    The Green vote is not squeezeable by Labour so this could lose Labour seats.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,411

    Society collectively has the right to impose rules and standards on how we behave...

    ...and the moral obligation to do so only when absolutely necessary and only when authorised by statute

    But we have removed your right to drink and drive. Or not wear a seatbelt. Or use leaded fuel. The push against diesel engines has reduced the percentage of cars sold to less than 10% being diesel. It will soon be zero as manufacturers withdraw them from sale as not being economical.

    The fact that that list is growing longer is not a reason for adding to it, and is arguably a reason for not doing so

    And if you drive a 10 year old diesel on a 4 mile daily commute in London you're going to want to change the car anyway. It will break.

    And that's their problem, which they are perfectly capable of fixing. People can make their own decisions

  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,606
    Ghedebrav said:

    Leon said:

    This summer is the first time I’ve felt that London is SERIOUSLY recovering from the twin blows of Covid and Brexit

    It might partly be because I’ve travelled so much - and I’ve seen how fucked everywhere else is

    Nonetheless my usual “London is back” cheerleading has a bit more conviction about it, than normal

    Off out in London tomorrow evening; will report back. I'm still sceptical of "London Is Back" though I v much want it to be.
    It’s almost pure anecdata and basically intuitive; you might well conclude I’m deluded

    Tho there are some genuine fact-based straws in the wind. International Tourism is back big time (it’s back almost everywhere in Europe). That’s great for the West End obvs

    Also the hideous candy shops are being closed down: as a matter of policy. That shows confidence. People are less desperate for rent-payers to fill retail

    Finally there’s the matter of comparisons. In an age of great uncertainty, London projects stability. Which feels quite precious now. eg You’re not going to boil to death nor freeze to bits (you might commit suicide because drizzle but hey).

    London’s politics is reassuringly centrist. As the EU swings hard right, British politics becomes more moderate. We’ve had our populist moment. Meanwhile London avoids the scourges that afflict American cities: we have almost none of the homeless opioid awfulness, crime is much lower, even the race debate is far less venomous, etc

    If you want to live in an English-speaking world city in a stable country, with world class culture, food, history - with access to the nicer bits of Europe but far away from wars and deadly heatwaves and migration waves - London is your only choice

    I’m genuinely optimistic



  • NerysHughesNerysHughes Posts: 3,375
    edited August 2023
    Leon said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Leon said:

    This summer is the first time I’ve felt that London is SERIOUSLY recovering from the twin blows of Covid and Brexit

    It might partly be because I’ve travelled so much - and I’ve seen how fucked everywhere else is

    Nonetheless my usual “London is back” cheerleading has a bit more conviction about it, than normal

    Off out in London tomorrow evening; will report back. I'm still sceptical of "London Is Back" though I v much want it to be.
    It’s almost pure anecdata and basically intuitive; you might well conclude I’m deluded

    Tho there are some genuine fact-based straws in the wind. International Tourism is back big time (it’s back almost everywhere in Europe). That’s great for the West End obvs

    Also the hideous candy shops are being closed down: as a matter of policy. That shows confidence. People are less desperate for rent-payers to fill retail

    Finally there’s the matter of comparisons. In an age of great uncertainty, London projects stability. Which feels quite precious now. eg You’re not going to boil to death nor freeze to bits (you might commit suicide because drizzle but hey).

    London’s politics is reassuringly centrist. As the EU swings hard right, British politics becomes more moderate. We’ve had our populist moment. Meanwhile London avoids the scourges that afflict American cities: we have almost none of the homeless opioid awfulness, crime is much lower, even the race debate is far less venomous, etc

    If you want to live in an English-speaking world city in a stable country, with world class culture, food, history - with access to the nicer bits of Europe but far away from wars and deadly heatwaves and migration waves - London is your only choice

    I’m genuinely optimistic



    Optimism about the UK and this site do not mix
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,679
    Heathener said:

    I agree with Mike but I don't like the wording of this poll which is clumsy and leading. Neither of the two pro-anthropogenic global warming questions are felicitous. And this comes from someone who is passionate about trying to save the planet.

    Per this poll the % of the public (inc even Con voters) who think it's not a real issue (aka climate denialists) is much lower than I'd have guessed. Nice one public (if true).
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,955
    edited August 2023
    Phil said:

    Cicero said:

    Cicero said:

    What slightly puzzles me about Sunak´s attack on the long standing consensus that significantly restrictive green policies are necessary, is the very poor politics of his position.

    The fact is that there is a major strand of Tory support that firmly supports the principle of acting on climate change, even if they are not settled on policy details. These are core supporters of the Party, not strictly the "old maids bicycling to Communion" but certainly socially active Tories; the kind who staff Citizens Advice Bureaux, serve as local councilors or as in some other local capacity such as school governors charities or even magistrates. Many view with concern the financial position of their children or grandchildren but are equivocal about the inheritance tax situation. They raise money for local hospitals, they see the daily pressure on the NHS is not a myth.

    Increasingly they no longer view the Tories as "their party". Strident right wingers they are not, and while their natural moderation made them abhor Corbyn, increasingly they view the Daily Mail, Trumpian style hostility expressed by the likes of Braverman, Patel and even Sunak himself as hostility directed towards them- and as they watch public services dissolve into a shambles, they are increasingly not sitting on the sidelines any more.

    Every Liberal Democrat branch in the country can tell you of these former Conservatives now coming out to campaign for the Lib Dems. This abandonment of a major plank of the green agenda will turn this trickle into something a lot bigger. Places like Surrey, Gloucestershire and Aberdeenshire are seeing the Lib Dems not only running things locally, but now looking like making major progress in the national battle too.

    This green U-turn by Sunak could be the final mistake that alienates the Shires from the Tories for the last time.

    It's a core vote strategy designed to prevent a total Tory wipe out, aimed at winning the next but one or two elections not the next one.
    What core vote, if they have alienated the active middle class?
    Retired pensioners.
    My retired parents love bussing around for free (primarily to wind me up, I think).

    A sleight of hand from Labour could be to neutralise this debate by targeting older people with more free bus/train travel (local routes only, perhaps).

    Highly progressive too.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,987
    edited August 2023
    Cicero said:

    Cicero said:

    What slightly puzzles me about Sunak´s attack on the long standing consensus that significantly restrictive green policies are necessary, is the very poor politics of his position.

    The fact is that there is a major strand of Tory support that firmly supports the principle of acting on climate change, even if they are not settled on policy details. These are core supporters of the Party, not strictly the "old maids bicycling to Communion" but certainly socially active Tories; the kind who staff Citizens Advice Bureaux, serve as local councilors or as in some other local capacity such as school governors charities or even magistrates. Many view with concern the financial position of their children or grandchildren but are equivocal about the inheritance tax situation. They raise money for local hospitals, they see the daily pressure on the NHS is not a myth.

    Increasingly they no longer view the Tories as "their party". Strident right wingers they are not, and while their natural moderation made them abhor Corbyn, increasingly they view the Daily Mail, Trumpian style hostility expressed by the likes of Braverman, Patel and even Sunak himself as hostility directed towards them- and as they watch public services dissolve into a shambles, they are increasingly not sitting on the sidelines any more.

    Every Liberal Democrat branch in the country can tell you of these former Conservatives now coming out to campaign for the Lib Dems. This abandonment of a major plank of the green agenda will turn this trickle into something a lot bigger. Places like Surrey, Gloucestershire and Aberdeenshire are seeing the Lib Dems not only running things locally, but now looking like making major progress in the national battle too.

    This green U-turn by Sunak could be the final mistake that alienates the Shires from the Tories for the last time.

    It's a core vote strategy designed to prevent a total Tory wipe out, aimed at winning the next but one or two elections not the next one.
    What core vote, if they have alienated the active middle class?
    Pensioners and the white working classes who voted Leave and Hindus for Rishi
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,223
    Lol, the women's equivalent of Beckham/Rooney.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,679
    Cicero said:

    Cicero said:

    What slightly puzzles me about Sunak´s attack on the long standing consensus that significantly restrictive green policies are necessary, is the very poor politics of his position.

    The fact is that there is a major strand of Tory support that firmly supports the principle of acting on climate change, even if they are not settled on policy details. These are core supporters of the Party, not strictly the "old maids bicycling to Communion" but certainly socially active Tories; the kind who staff Citizens Advice Bureaux, serve as local councilors or as in some other local capacity such as school governors charities or even magistrates. Many view with concern the financial position of their children or grandchildren but are equivocal about the inheritance tax situation. They raise money for local hospitals, they see the daily pressure on the NHS is not a myth.

    Increasingly they no longer view the Tories as "their party". Strident right wingers they are not, and while their natural moderation made them abhor Corbyn, increasingly they view the Daily Mail, Trumpian style hostility expressed by the likes of Braverman, Patel and even Sunak himself as hostility directed towards them- and as they watch public services dissolve into a shambles, they are increasingly not sitting on the sidelines any more.

    Every Liberal Democrat branch in the country can tell you of these former Conservatives now coming out to campaign for the Lib Dems. This abandonment of a major plank of the green agenda will turn this trickle into something a lot bigger. Places like Surrey, Gloucestershire and Aberdeenshire are seeing the Lib Dems not only running things locally, but now looking like making major progress in the national battle too.

    This green U-turn by Sunak could be the final mistake that alienates the Shires from the Tories for the last time.

    It's a core vote strategy designed to prevent a total Tory wipe out, aimed at winning the next but one or two elections not the next one.
    What core vote, if they have alienated the active middle class?
    The deplorables.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,987
    edited August 2023
    TimS said:

    HYUFD said:

    Cicero said:

    What slightly puzzles me about Sunak´s attack on the long standing consensus that significantly restrictive green policies are necessary, is the very poor politics of his position.

    The fact is that there is a major strand of Tory support that firmly supports the principle of acting on climate change, even if they are not settled on policy details. These are core supporters of the Party, not strictly the "old maids bicycling to Communion" but certainly socially active Tories; the kind who staff Citizens Advice Bureaux, serve as local councilors or as in some other local capacity such as school governors charities or even magistrates. Many view with concern the financial position of their children or grandchildren but are equivocal about the inheritance tax situation. They raise money for local hospitals, they see the daily pressure on the NHS is not a myth.

    Increasingly they no longer view the Tories as "their party". Strident right wingers they are not, and while their natural moderation made them abhor Corbyn, increasingly they view the Daily Mail, Trumpian style hostility expressed by the likes of Braverman, Patel and even Sunak himself as hostility directed towards them- and as they watch public services dissolve into a shambles, they are increasingly not sitting on the sidelines any more.

    Every Liberal Democrat branch in the country can tell you of these former Conservatives now coming out to campaign for the Lib Dems. This abandonment of a major plank of the green agenda will turn this trickle into something a lot bigger. Places like Surrey, Gloucestershire and Aberdeenshire are seeing the Lib Dems not only running things locally, but now looking like making major progress in the national battle too.

    This green U-turn by Sunak could be the final mistake that alienates the Shires from the Tories for the last time.

    A handful of upper middle class Remain voting areas of the Shires in the most prosperous parts of Oxfordshire, Surrey and Hertfordshire maybe. However remember even the South East Shires voted majority Leave in 2016, they aren't any more socially liberal and pro climate taxes than the national average and Tory voters there certainly aren't
    You're making the mistake of assuming all socially conservative people are climate libertarians. Aside from the fact we're not America or Australia, that is far from the truth. Support for climate mitigation policies does not mirror the Brexit vote so if you think the only people who are going to be concerned are blue wall remainers I think you'll be surprised.

    The header itself demonstrates there really isn't much difference between Tory and Labour/Lib Dem voters on this subject, far less than there is on issues like migration or the EU.

    Attacking disruptive protests is one thing, but when the conservatives turn against what people perceive as nature conservation or good stewardship of the land they get punished by their core vote: remember conservationism often manifests as NIMBYism. The international embarrassment of the Sunderland triathlon poisonings this weekend should remind them it's a dangerous road, trodden long before by a Tory government during the BSE crisis. Once Lib Dem leaflets start conflating water quality and sewage with government pronouncements on other environmental regulations they're going to end up in the shit.
    On the headline poll 37% of UK voters think man made climate change is an issue but the effects are exaggerated or man made climate change is not an issue at all.

    37% is significantly higher than the current Tory voteshare in polls
  • England down to 10 after red card
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,958
    That was idiotic.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,256

    England down to 10 after red card

    That was more foolish than Beckham's.
  • Nigelb said:

    England down to 10 after red card

    That was more foolish than Beckham's.
    Just crazy
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,223
    edited August 2023
    Nigelb said:

    England down to 10 after red card

    That was more foolish than Beckham's.
    Yes, VAR means you certainly won't get away with it.
  • Andy_JS said:

    That was idiotic.

    As unnecessary and stupid a red card as Beckham 1998.
  • londonpubmanlondonpubman Posts: 3,640
    That will be a 3 game ban as it is a red card for violent conduct. Her tournament is over.
  • Eabhal said:

    Phil said:

    Cicero said:

    Cicero said:

    What slightly puzzles me about Sunak´s attack on the long standing consensus that significantly restrictive green policies are necessary, is the very poor politics of his position.

    The fact is that there is a major strand of Tory support that firmly supports the principle of acting on climate change, even if they are not settled on policy details. These are core supporters of the Party, not strictly the "old maids bicycling to Communion" but certainly socially active Tories; the kind who staff Citizens Advice Bureaux, serve as local councilors or as in some other local capacity such as school governors charities or even magistrates. Many view with concern the financial position of their children or grandchildren but are equivocal about the inheritance tax situation. They raise money for local hospitals, they see the daily pressure on the NHS is not a myth.

    Increasingly they no longer view the Tories as "their party". Strident right wingers they are not, and while their natural moderation made them abhor Corbyn, increasingly they view the Daily Mail, Trumpian style hostility expressed by the likes of Braverman, Patel and even Sunak himself as hostility directed towards them- and as they watch public services dissolve into a shambles, they are increasingly not sitting on the sidelines any more.

    Every Liberal Democrat branch in the country can tell you of these former Conservatives now coming out to campaign for the Lib Dems. This abandonment of a major plank of the green agenda will turn this trickle into something a lot bigger. Places like Surrey, Gloucestershire and Aberdeenshire are seeing the Lib Dems not only running things locally, but now looking like making major progress in the national battle too.

    This green U-turn by Sunak could be the final mistake that alienates the Shires from the Tories for the last time.

    It's a core vote strategy designed to prevent a total Tory wipe out, aimed at winning the next but one or two elections not the next one.
    What core vote, if they have alienated the active middle class?
    Retired pensioners.
    My retired parents love bussing around for free (primarily to wind me up, I think).

    A sleight of hand from Labour could be to neutralise this debate by targeting older people with more free bus/train travel (local routes only, perhaps).

    Highly progressive too.
    Funny definition of progressive you have.

    Please explain how it is progressive to be funding travel for the wealthiest generation, who don't need to get to work, while taxing the transportation of those who are getting to work in order to pay their rent and living expenses?
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 4,730

    That will be a 3 game ban as it is a red card for violent conduct. Her tournament is over.

    Even if England win, would you want someone that stupid on the pitch?
  • Eabhal said:

    Phil said:

    Cicero said:

    Cicero said:

    What slightly puzzles me about Sunak´s attack on the long standing consensus that significantly restrictive green policies are necessary, is the very poor politics of his position.

    The fact is that there is a major strand of Tory support that firmly supports the principle of acting on climate change, even if they are not settled on policy details. These are core supporters of the Party, not strictly the "old maids bicycling to Communion" but certainly socially active Tories; the kind who staff Citizens Advice Bureaux, serve as local councilors or as in some other local capacity such as school governors charities or even magistrates. Many view with concern the financial position of their children or grandchildren but are equivocal about the inheritance tax situation. They raise money for local hospitals, they see the daily pressure on the NHS is not a myth.

    Increasingly they no longer view the Tories as "their party". Strident right wingers they are not, and while their natural moderation made them abhor Corbyn, increasingly they view the Daily Mail, Trumpian style hostility expressed by the likes of Braverman, Patel and even Sunak himself as hostility directed towards them- and as they watch public services dissolve into a shambles, they are increasingly not sitting on the sidelines any more.

    Every Liberal Democrat branch in the country can tell you of these former Conservatives now coming out to campaign for the Lib Dems. This abandonment of a major plank of the green agenda will turn this trickle into something a lot bigger. Places like Surrey, Gloucestershire and Aberdeenshire are seeing the Lib Dems not only running things locally, but now looking like making major progress in the national battle too.

    This green U-turn by Sunak could be the final mistake that alienates the Shires from the Tories for the last time.

    It's a core vote strategy designed to prevent a total Tory wipe out, aimed at winning the next but one or two elections not the next one.
    What core vote, if they have alienated the active middle class?
    Retired pensioners.
    My retired parents love bussing around for free (primarily to wind me up, I think).

    A sleight of hand from Labour could be to neutralise this debate by targeting older people with more free bus/train travel (local routes only, perhaps).

    Highly progressive too.
    My son and some of his academy friends went into Aberdeen on the bus on Saturday. Their Young Scot cards give them free bus travel until 22!

    This is Good News, albeit the closest bus stop for the Aberdeen bus is 9 miles away.
  • GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,860
    Nigelb said:

    England down to 10 after red card

    That was more foolish than Beckham's.
    Yep, nastier and more intent. Really stupid, especially given what a tournament she'd had to this point.

    TBH Beckham's red, while silly and deserved, got more of a media-driven outcry than it really merited. He'd reached the apex of the classic build-up-tear-down tabloid/celebrity bell curve, and the foul was a gift.

    Shearer's foul in the box leading to Sol Campbell's goal being disallowed was more influential on the outcome.
  • That will be a 3 game ban as it is a red card for violent conduct. Her tournament is over.

    Even if England win, would you want someone that stupid on the pitch?
    Considering she's been one of England's best players? Yes, of course you would.

    But she won't be, due to a moment of real stupidity. Doesn't mean she's stupid or a bad player all the time.
  • TazTaz Posts: 15,049
    Eabhal said:

    Phil said:

    Cicero said:

    Cicero said:

    What slightly puzzles me about Sunak´s attack on the long standing consensus that significantly restrictive green policies are necessary, is the very poor politics of his position.

    The fact is that there is a major strand of Tory support that firmly supports the principle of acting on climate change, even if they are not settled on policy details. These are core supporters of the Party, not strictly the "old maids bicycling to Communion" but certainly socially active Tories; the kind who staff Citizens Advice Bureaux, serve as local councilors or as in some other local capacity such as school governors charities or even magistrates. Many view with concern the financial position of their children or grandchildren but are equivocal about the inheritance tax situation. They raise money for local hospitals, they see the daily pressure on the NHS is not a myth.

    Increasingly they no longer view the Tories as "their party". Strident right wingers they are not, and while their natural moderation made them abhor Corbyn, increasingly they view the Daily Mail, Trumpian style hostility expressed by the likes of Braverman, Patel and even Sunak himself as hostility directed towards them- and as they watch public services dissolve into a shambles, they are increasingly not sitting on the sidelines any more.

    Every Liberal Democrat branch in the country can tell you of these former Conservatives now coming out to campaign for the Lib Dems. This abandonment of a major plank of the green agenda will turn this trickle into something a lot bigger. Places like Surrey, Gloucestershire and Aberdeenshire are seeing the Lib Dems not only running things locally, but now looking like making major progress in the national battle too.

    This green U-turn by Sunak could be the final mistake that alienates the Shires from the Tories for the last time.

    It's a core vote strategy designed to prevent a total Tory wipe out, aimed at winning the next but one or two elections not the next one.
    What core vote, if they have alienated the active middle class?
    Retired pensioners.
    My retired parents love bussing around for free (primarily to wind me up, I think).

    A sleight of hand from Labour could be to neutralise this debate by targeting older people with more free bus/train travel (local routes only, perhaps).

    Highly progressive too.
    Good idea, the older generation do not get enough from the state !!
  • GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,860

    Another aspect of this reactionary approach by the Conservatives will be to promote green issues as a dividing line.

    This will increase the Green activists and their Green vote as a statement of intent.

    The Green vote is not squeezeable by Labour so this could lose Labour seats.

    I had a similar thought - though Greens take votes from Tories too, as we saw in the locals. Rivers and beaches full of shit can be as motivating as ULEZ.

    A lot of Conservatives care about environmental issues (as they should, clue is in the name etc.), which are not just about climate change.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,955
    edited August 2023

    Eabhal said:

    Phil said:

    Cicero said:

    Cicero said:

    What slightly puzzles me about Sunak´s attack on the long standing consensus that significantly restrictive green policies are necessary, is the very poor politics of his position.

    The fact is that there is a major strand of Tory support that firmly supports the principle of acting on climate change, even if they are not settled on policy details. These are core supporters of the Party, not strictly the "old maids bicycling to Communion" but certainly socially active Tories; the kind who staff Citizens Advice Bureaux, serve as local councilors or as in some other local capacity such as school governors charities or even magistrates. Many view with concern the financial position of their children or grandchildren but are equivocal about the inheritance tax situation. They raise money for local hospitals, they see the daily pressure on the NHS is not a myth.

    Increasingly they no longer view the Tories as "their party". Strident right wingers they are not, and while their natural moderation made them abhor Corbyn, increasingly they view the Daily Mail, Trumpian style hostility expressed by the likes of Braverman, Patel and even Sunak himself as hostility directed towards them- and as they watch public services dissolve into a shambles, they are increasingly not sitting on the sidelines any more.

    Every Liberal Democrat branch in the country can tell you of these former Conservatives now coming out to campaign for the Lib Dems. This abandonment of a major plank of the green agenda will turn this trickle into something a lot bigger. Places like Surrey, Gloucestershire and Aberdeenshire are seeing the Lib Dems not only running things locally, but now looking like making major progress in the national battle too.

    This green U-turn by Sunak could be the final mistake that alienates the Shires from the Tories for the last time.

    It's a core vote strategy designed to prevent a total Tory wipe out, aimed at winning the next but one or two elections not the next one.
    What core vote, if they have alienated the active middle class?
    Retired pensioners.
    My retired parents love bussing around for free (primarily to wind me up, I think).

    A sleight of hand from Labour could be to neutralise this debate by targeting older people with more free bus/train travel (local routes only, perhaps).

    Highly progressive too.
    Funny definition of progressive you have.

    Please explain how it is progressive to be funding travel for the wealthiest generation, who don't need to get to work, while taxing the transportation of those who are getting to work in order to pay their rent and living expenses?
    I meant progressive within the older cohort, so easy to sell to younger Labour voters while simultaneously targeting older voters. I'm talking tactics.

    If you want a progressive transport policy overall, you would dramatically increase funding for buses and active travel more generally.
  • PeckPeck Posts: 517
    edited August 2023
    What a disgraceful Big Brotherite formulation of the options, with the tickbox most distanciated from the official ideology apparently being that "man-made climate change is not a real issue".

    Manmade climate change is a lie.

    Wanting to stop climate change is insane.

    How crazy it is that the split between believing the rulers absolutely and being a teensy bit sceptical that they always go about achieving their goals quite the right way, darling, correlates with the divide between viewing oneself as progressive in some sense and voting Tory!
  • TazTaz Posts: 15,049
    As reported in a few papers over the weekend our friends at Just Stop Oil are looking to disrupt premier league soccer games this season too.

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/23364923/just-stop-oil-premier-league/
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,505
    IanB2 said:

    First bath in a month…

    you homeless
  • Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Phil said:

    Cicero said:

    Cicero said:

    What slightly puzzles me about Sunak´s attack on the long standing consensus that significantly restrictive green policies are necessary, is the very poor politics of his position.

    The fact is that there is a major strand of Tory support that firmly supports the principle of acting on climate change, even if they are not settled on policy details. These are core supporters of the Party, not strictly the "old maids bicycling to Communion" but certainly socially active Tories; the kind who staff Citizens Advice Bureaux, serve as local councilors or as in some other local capacity such as school governors charities or even magistrates. Many view with concern the financial position of their children or grandchildren but are equivocal about the inheritance tax situation. They raise money for local hospitals, they see the daily pressure on the NHS is not a myth.

    Increasingly they no longer view the Tories as "their party". Strident right wingers they are not, and while their natural moderation made them abhor Corbyn, increasingly they view the Daily Mail, Trumpian style hostility expressed by the likes of Braverman, Patel and even Sunak himself as hostility directed towards them- and as they watch public services dissolve into a shambles, they are increasingly not sitting on the sidelines any more.

    Every Liberal Democrat branch in the country can tell you of these former Conservatives now coming out to campaign for the Lib Dems. This abandonment of a major plank of the green agenda will turn this trickle into something a lot bigger. Places like Surrey, Gloucestershire and Aberdeenshire are seeing the Lib Dems not only running things locally, but now looking like making major progress in the national battle too.

    This green U-turn by Sunak could be the final mistake that alienates the Shires from the Tories for the last time.

    It's a core vote strategy designed to prevent a total Tory wipe out, aimed at winning the next but one or two elections not the next one.
    What core vote, if they have alienated the active middle class?
    Retired pensioners.
    My retired parents love bussing around for free (primarily to wind me up, I think).

    A sleight of hand from Labour could be to neutralise this debate by targeting older people with more free bus/train travel (local routes only, perhaps).

    Highly progressive too.
    Funny definition of progressive you have.

    Please explain how it is progressive to be funding travel for the wealthiest generation, who don't need to get to work, while taxing the transportation of those who are getting to work in order to pay their rent and living expenses?
    I meant progressive within the older cohort, so easy to sell to younger Labour voters while simultaneously targeting older voters. I'm talking tactics.

    If you want a progressive transport policy overall, you would dramatically increase funding for buses and active travel more generally.
    If you want a truly progressive transport policy overall, you would slash fuel duty which disproportionately is a much heftier tax on transportation from the least well off - and is a tax the least well off can not evade.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,955
    edited August 2023
    Taz said:

    Eabhal said:

    Phil said:

    Cicero said:

    Cicero said:

    What slightly puzzles me about Sunak´s attack on the long standing consensus that significantly restrictive green policies are necessary, is the very poor politics of his position.

    The fact is that there is a major strand of Tory support that firmly supports the principle of acting on climate change, even if they are not settled on policy details. These are core supporters of the Party, not strictly the "old maids bicycling to Communion" but certainly socially active Tories; the kind who staff Citizens Advice Bureaux, serve as local councilors or as in some other local capacity such as school governors charities or even magistrates. Many view with concern the financial position of their children or grandchildren but are equivocal about the inheritance tax situation. They raise money for local hospitals, they see the daily pressure on the NHS is not a myth.

    Increasingly they no longer view the Tories as "their party". Strident right wingers they are not, and while their natural moderation made them abhor Corbyn, increasingly they view the Daily Mail, Trumpian style hostility expressed by the likes of Braverman, Patel and even Sunak himself as hostility directed towards them- and as they watch public services dissolve into a shambles, they are increasingly not sitting on the sidelines any more.

    Every Liberal Democrat branch in the country can tell you of these former Conservatives now coming out to campaign for the Lib Dems. This abandonment of a major plank of the green agenda will turn this trickle into something a lot bigger. Places like Surrey, Gloucestershire and Aberdeenshire are seeing the Lib Dems not only running things locally, but now looking like making major progress in the national battle too.

    This green U-turn by Sunak could be the final mistake that alienates the Shires from the Tories for the last time.

    It's a core vote strategy designed to prevent a total Tory wipe out, aimed at winning the next but one or two elections not the next one.
    What core vote, if they have alienated the active middle class?
    Retired pensioners.
    My retired parents love bussing around for free (primarily to wind me up, I think).

    A sleight of hand from Labour could be to neutralise this debate by targeting older people with more free bus/train travel (local routes only, perhaps).

    Highly progressive too.
    Good idea, the older generation do not get enough from the state !!
    There are a significant chunk of older people who are in poverty. Progressive policies don't just have to be for the young.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,955
    edited August 2023

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Phil said:

    Cicero said:

    Cicero said:

    What slightly puzzles me about Sunak´s attack on the long standing consensus that significantly restrictive green policies are necessary, is the very poor politics of his position.

    The fact is that there is a major strand of Tory support that firmly supports the principle of acting on climate change, even if they are not settled on policy details. These are core supporters of the Party, not strictly the "old maids bicycling to Communion" but certainly socially active Tories; the kind who staff Citizens Advice Bureaux, serve as local councilors or as in some other local capacity such as school governors charities or even magistrates. Many view with concern the financial position of their children or grandchildren but are equivocal about the inheritance tax situation. They raise money for local hospitals, they see the daily pressure on the NHS is not a myth.

    Increasingly they no longer view the Tories as "their party". Strident right wingers they are not, and while their natural moderation made them abhor Corbyn, increasingly they view the Daily Mail, Trumpian style hostility expressed by the likes of Braverman, Patel and even Sunak himself as hostility directed towards them- and as they watch public services dissolve into a shambles, they are increasingly not sitting on the sidelines any more.

    Every Liberal Democrat branch in the country can tell you of these former Conservatives now coming out to campaign for the Lib Dems. This abandonment of a major plank of the green agenda will turn this trickle into something a lot bigger. Places like Surrey, Gloucestershire and Aberdeenshire are seeing the Lib Dems not only running things locally, but now looking like making major progress in the national battle too.

    This green U-turn by Sunak could be the final mistake that alienates the Shires from the Tories for the last time.

    It's a core vote strategy designed to prevent a total Tory wipe out, aimed at winning the next but one or two elections not the next one.
    What core vote, if they have alienated the active middle class?
    Retired pensioners.
    My retired parents love bussing around for free (primarily to wind me up, I think).

    A sleight of hand from Labour could be to neutralise this debate by targeting older people with more free bus/train travel (local routes only, perhaps).

    Highly progressive too.
    Funny definition of progressive you have.

    Please explain how it is progressive to be funding travel for the wealthiest generation, who don't need to get to work, while taxing the transportation of those who are getting to work in order to pay their rent and living expenses?
    I meant progressive within the older cohort, so easy to sell to younger Labour voters while simultaneously targeting older voters. I'm talking tactics.

    If you want a progressive transport policy overall, you would dramatically increase funding for buses and active travel more generally.
    If you want a truly progressive transport policy overall, you would slash fuel duty which disproportionately is a much heftier tax on transportation from the least well off - and is a tax the least well off can not evade.
    The least well off can't afford to buy a car in the first place.

    I'd slash fuel duty for people in rural areas where public transport isn't feasible.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,256

    That will be a 3 game ban as it is a red card for violent conduct. Her tournament is over.

    Even if England win, would you want someone that stupid on the pitch?
    Considering she's been one of England's best players? Yes, of course you would.

    But she won't be, due to a moment of real stupidity. Doesn't mean she's stupid or a bad player all the time.
    Moment of madness.
    I hope she comes back a better player from this.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,505
    Miklosvar said:

    It is AUTUMN this morning, speaking of climate. Mist in the valleys, heavy dew to the west of hedges, full sized red apples on the trees. Lovely.

    Midsummer you eejit
  • Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Phil said:

    Cicero said:

    Cicero said:

    What slightly puzzles me about Sunak´s attack on the long standing consensus that significantly restrictive green policies are necessary, is the very poor politics of his position.

    The fact is that there is a major strand of Tory support that firmly supports the principle of acting on climate change, even if they are not settled on policy details. These are core supporters of the Party, not strictly the "old maids bicycling to Communion" but certainly socially active Tories; the kind who staff Citizens Advice Bureaux, serve as local councilors or as in some other local capacity such as school governors charities or even magistrates. Many view with concern the financial position of their children or grandchildren but are equivocal about the inheritance tax situation. They raise money for local hospitals, they see the daily pressure on the NHS is not a myth.

    Increasingly they no longer view the Tories as "their party". Strident right wingers they are not, and while their natural moderation made them abhor Corbyn, increasingly they view the Daily Mail, Trumpian style hostility expressed by the likes of Braverman, Patel and even Sunak himself as hostility directed towards them- and as they watch public services dissolve into a shambles, they are increasingly not sitting on the sidelines any more.

    Every Liberal Democrat branch in the country can tell you of these former Conservatives now coming out to campaign for the Lib Dems. This abandonment of a major plank of the green agenda will turn this trickle into something a lot bigger. Places like Surrey, Gloucestershire and Aberdeenshire are seeing the Lib Dems not only running things locally, but now looking like making major progress in the national battle too.

    This green U-turn by Sunak could be the final mistake that alienates the Shires from the Tories for the last time.

    It's a core vote strategy designed to prevent a total Tory wipe out, aimed at winning the next but one or two elections not the next one.
    What core vote, if they have alienated the active middle class?
    Retired pensioners.
    My retired parents love bussing around for free (primarily to wind me up, I think).

    A sleight of hand from Labour could be to neutralise this debate by targeting older people with more free bus/train travel (local routes only, perhaps).

    Highly progressive too.
    Funny definition of progressive you have.

    Please explain how it is progressive to be funding travel for the wealthiest generation, who don't need to get to work, while taxing the transportation of those who are getting to work in order to pay their rent and living expenses?
    I meant progressive within the older cohort, so easy to sell to younger Labour voters while simultaneously targeting older voters. I'm talking tactics.

    If you want a progressive transport policy overall, you would dramatically increase funding for buses and active travel more generally.
    If you want a truly progressive transport policy overall, you would slash fuel duty which disproportionately is a much heftier tax on transportation from the least well off - and is a tax the least well off can not evade.
    The least well off can't afford to buy a car in the first place.
    Betraying your ignorance.

    The least well off can't afford a brand new Tesla, but absolutely many can and do rely upon a cheap banger to run around in.

    Fuel duty is one of the most regressive taxes in the country.
  • PeckPeck Posts: 517
    Leon said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Leon said:

    This summer is the first time I’ve felt that London is SERIOUSLY recovering from the twin blows of Covid and Brexit

    It might partly be because I’ve travelled so much - and I’ve seen how fucked everywhere else is

    Nonetheless my usual “London is back” cheerleading has a bit more conviction about it, than normal

    Off out in London tomorrow evening; will report back. I'm still sceptical of "London Is Back" though I v much want it to be.
    It’s almost pure anecdata and basically intuitive; you might well conclude I’m deluded

    Tho there are some genuine fact-based straws in the wind. International Tourism is back big time (it’s back almost everywhere in Europe). That’s great for the West End obvs

    Also the hideous candy shops are being closed down: as a matter of policy. That shows confidence. People are less desperate for rent-payers to fill retail

    Finally there’s the matter of comparisons. In an age of great uncertainty, London projects stability. Which feels quite precious now. eg You’re not going to boil to death nor freeze to bits (you might commit suicide because drizzle but hey).

    London’s politics is reassuringly centrist. As the EU swings hard right, British politics becomes more moderate. We’ve had our populist moment. Meanwhile London avoids the scourges that afflict American cities: we have almost none of the homeless opioid awfulness, crime is much lower, even the race debate is far less venomous, etc

    If you want to live in an English-speaking world city in a stable country, with world class culture, food, history - with access to the nicer bits of Europe but far away from wars and deadly heatwaves and migration waves - London is your only choice

    I’m genuinely optimistic
    There are only three English-speaking world cities. The other two are Singapore and New York, which are nowhere near Europe.
  • GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,860
    Leon said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Leon said:

    This summer is the first time I’ve felt that London is SERIOUSLY recovering from the twin blows of Covid and Brexit

    It might partly be because I’ve travelled so much - and I’ve seen how fucked everywhere else is

    Nonetheless my usual “London is back” cheerleading has a bit more conviction about it, than normal

    Off out in London tomorrow evening; will report back. I'm still sceptical of "London Is Back" though I v much want it to be.
    It’s almost pure anecdata and basically intuitive; you might well conclude I’m deluded

    Tho there are some genuine fact-based straws in the wind. International Tourism is back big time (it’s back almost everywhere in Europe). That’s great for the West End obvs

    Also the hideous candy shops are being closed down: as a matter of policy. That shows confidence. People are less desperate for rent-payers to fill retail

    Finally there’s the matter of comparisons. In an age of great uncertainty, London projects stability. Which feels quite precious now. eg You’re not going to boil to death nor freeze to bits (you might commit suicide because drizzle but hey).

    London’s politics is reassuringly centrist. As the EU swings hard right, British politics becomes more moderate. We’ve had our populist moment. Meanwhile London avoids the scourges that afflict American cities: we have almost none of the homeless opioid awfulness, crime is much lower, even the race debate is far less venomous, etc

    If you want to live in an English-speaking world city in a stable country, with world class culture, food, history - with access to the nicer bits of Europe but far away from wars and deadly heatwaves and migration waves - London is your only choice

    I’m genuinely optimistic



    Though I'm from S Yorks and live in Manc now, I spent five raucous and financially ruinous years in London which I do not regret (I met my wife, for starters!); I'm in London often for work, have friends there still and enjoy taking my family there. I still feel like a bit of a Londoner by proxy.

    We had a discussion about London nightlife a while back on here. I still feel that over the last decade especially on weeknights London has lost something of its vitality, but I also have to accept that 'my' London of my 20s would be gone regardless.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,955
    edited August 2023

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Phil said:

    Cicero said:

    Cicero said:

    What slightly puzzles me about Sunak´s attack on the long standing consensus that significantly restrictive green policies are necessary, is the very poor politics of his position.

    The fact is that there is a major strand of Tory support that firmly supports the principle of acting on climate change, even if they are not settled on policy details. These are core supporters of the Party, not strictly the "old maids bicycling to Communion" but certainly socially active Tories; the kind who staff Citizens Advice Bureaux, serve as local councilors or as in some other local capacity such as school governors charities or even magistrates. Many view with concern the financial position of their children or grandchildren but are equivocal about the inheritance tax situation. They raise money for local hospitals, they see the daily pressure on the NHS is not a myth.

    Increasingly they no longer view the Tories as "their party". Strident right wingers they are not, and while their natural moderation made them abhor Corbyn, increasingly they view the Daily Mail, Trumpian style hostility expressed by the likes of Braverman, Patel and even Sunak himself as hostility directed towards them- and as they watch public services dissolve into a shambles, they are increasingly not sitting on the sidelines any more.

    Every Liberal Democrat branch in the country can tell you of these former Conservatives now coming out to campaign for the Lib Dems. This abandonment of a major plank of the green agenda will turn this trickle into something a lot bigger. Places like Surrey, Gloucestershire and Aberdeenshire are seeing the Lib Dems not only running things locally, but now looking like making major progress in the national battle too.

    This green U-turn by Sunak could be the final mistake that alienates the Shires from the Tories for the last time.

    It's a core vote strategy designed to prevent a total Tory wipe out, aimed at winning the next but one or two elections not the next one.
    What core vote, if they have alienated the active middle class?
    Retired pensioners.
    My retired parents love bussing around for free (primarily to wind me up, I think).

    A sleight of hand from Labour could be to neutralise this debate by targeting older people with more free bus/train travel (local routes only, perhaps).

    Highly progressive too.
    Funny definition of progressive you have.

    Please explain how it is progressive to be funding travel for the wealthiest generation, who don't need to get to work, while taxing the transportation of those who are getting to work in order to pay their rent and living expenses?
    I meant progressive within the older cohort, so easy to sell to younger Labour voters while simultaneously targeting older voters. I'm talking tactics.

    If you want a progressive transport policy overall, you would dramatically increase funding for buses and active travel more generally.
    If you want a truly progressive transport policy overall, you would slash fuel duty which disproportionately is a much heftier tax on transportation from the least well off - and is a tax the least well off can not evade.
    The least well off can't afford to buy a car in the first place.
    Betraying your ignorance.

    The least well off can't afford a brand new Tesla, but absolutely many can and do rely upon a cheap banger to run around in.

    Fuel duty is one of the most regressive taxes in the country.
    Are you suggesting we massively increase taxes on richer drivers?
  • Peck said:

    Leon said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Leon said:

    This summer is the first time I’ve felt that London is SERIOUSLY recovering from the twin blows of Covid and Brexit

    It might partly be because I’ve travelled so much - and I’ve seen how fucked everywhere else is

    Nonetheless my usual “London is back” cheerleading has a bit more conviction about it, than normal

    Off out in London tomorrow evening; will report back. I'm still sceptical of "London Is Back" though I v much want it to be.
    It’s almost pure anecdata and basically intuitive; you might well conclude I’m deluded

    Tho there are some genuine fact-based straws in the wind. International Tourism is back big time (it’s back almost everywhere in Europe). That’s great for the West End obvs

    Also the hideous candy shops are being closed down: as a matter of policy. That shows confidence. People are less desperate for rent-payers to fill retail

    Finally there’s the matter of comparisons. In an age of great uncertainty, London projects stability. Which feels quite precious now. eg You’re not going to boil to death nor freeze to bits (you might commit suicide because drizzle but hey).

    London’s politics is reassuringly centrist. As the EU swings hard right, British politics becomes more moderate. We’ve had our populist moment. Meanwhile London avoids the scourges that afflict American cities: we have almost none of the homeless opioid awfulness, crime is much lower, even the race debate is far less venomous, etc

    If you want to live in an English-speaking world city in a stable country, with world class culture, food, history - with access to the nicer bits of Europe but far away from wars and deadly heatwaves and migration waves - London is your only choice

    I’m genuinely optimistic
    There are only three English-speaking world cities. The other two are Singapore and New York, which are nowhere near Europe.
    There are more than three in England alone. Manchester, Liverpool and Birmingham and more.

    Not to forget that English is spoken in Amsterdam, Lisbon, Frankfurt, Stockholm ... and even in Paris.
  • PeckPeck Posts: 517
    edited August 2023
    Cicero said:

    What slightly puzzles me about Sunak´s attack on the long standing consensus that significantly restrictive green policies are necessary, is the very poor politics of his position.

    The fact is that there is a major strand of Tory support that firmly supports the principle of acting on climate change, even if they are not settled on policy details. These are core supporters of the Party, not strictly the "old maids bicycling to Communion" but certainly socially active Tories; the kind who staff Citizens Advice Bureaux, serve as local councilors or as in some other local capacity such as school governors charities or even magistrates. Many view with concern the financial position of their children or grandchildren but are equivocal about the inheritance tax situation. They raise money for local hospitals, they see the daily pressure on the NHS is not a myth.

    Increasingly they no longer view the Tories as "their party". Strident right wingers they are not, and while their natural moderation made them abhor Corbyn, increasingly they view the Daily Mail, Trumpian style hostility expressed by the likes of Braverman, Patel and even Sunak himself as hostility directed towards them- and as they watch public services dissolve into a shambles, they are increasingly not sitting on the sidelines any more.

    Every Liberal Democrat branch in the country can tell you of these former Conservatives now coming out to campaign for the Lib Dems. This abandonment of a major plank of the green agenda will turn this trickle into something a lot bigger. Places like Surrey, Gloucestershire and Aberdeenshire are seeing the Lib Dems not only running things locally, but now looking like making major progress in the national battle too.

    This green U-turn by Sunak could be the final mistake that alienates the Shires from the Tories for the last time.

    As if the green agenda is anything other than Malthusianism.
    Keep on believing it can be squared with maintaining public services and free-at-the-point-of-use "health" provision for the proles if you wish.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,591
    Cicero said:

    What slightly puzzles me about Sunak´s attack on the long standing consensus that significantly restrictive green policies are necessary, is the very poor politics of his position.

    The fact is that there is a major strand of Tory support that firmly supports the principle of acting on climate change, even if they are not settled on policy details.

    Relatedly, some don't like terms like Climate Emergency, but that's a semantic point, not a policy disagreement, and they are all for many green policy positions.

    This feels like another attempt to throw out some red meat to shore up one side without thinking through what it means elsewhere.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,148
    Taz said:

    As reported in a few papers over the weekend our friends at Just Stop Oil are looking to disrupt premier league soccer games this season too.

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/23364923/just-stop-oil-premier-league/

    For some reason I am reminded of the following story.

    Instituto Cervantes (Spanish cultural centre in London) sold up their incredibly valuable building near Sloane Square. Moved to Central London.

    The building was bought by a Russian oligarch. Who was planning on converting it back to a house. Would be very nice.

    Got squatted. The usual types etc. They declared that they would never move, legal stuff etc.

    Then, they left overnight. So the story goes, someone explained to them the reputation of said oligarch.

  • Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Phil said:

    Cicero said:

    Cicero said:

    What slightly puzzles me about Sunak´s attack on the long standing consensus that significantly restrictive green policies are necessary, is the very poor politics of his position.

    The fact is that there is a major strand of Tory support that firmly supports the principle of acting on climate change, even if they are not settled on policy details. These are core supporters of the Party, not strictly the "old maids bicycling to Communion" but certainly socially active Tories; the kind who staff Citizens Advice Bureaux, serve as local councilors or as in some other local capacity such as school governors charities or even magistrates. Many view with concern the financial position of their children or grandchildren but are equivocal about the inheritance tax situation. They raise money for local hospitals, they see the daily pressure on the NHS is not a myth.

    Increasingly they no longer view the Tories as "their party". Strident right wingers they are not, and while their natural moderation made them abhor Corbyn, increasingly they view the Daily Mail, Trumpian style hostility expressed by the likes of Braverman, Patel and even Sunak himself as hostility directed towards them- and as they watch public services dissolve into a shambles, they are increasingly not sitting on the sidelines any more.

    Every Liberal Democrat branch in the country can tell you of these former Conservatives now coming out to campaign for the Lib Dems. This abandonment of a major plank of the green agenda will turn this trickle into something a lot bigger. Places like Surrey, Gloucestershire and Aberdeenshire are seeing the Lib Dems not only running things locally, but now looking like making major progress in the national battle too.

    This green U-turn by Sunak could be the final mistake that alienates the Shires from the Tories for the last time.

    It's a core vote strategy designed to prevent a total Tory wipe out, aimed at winning the next but one or two elections not the next one.
    What core vote, if they have alienated the active middle class?
    Retired pensioners.
    My retired parents love bussing around for free (primarily to wind me up, I think).

    A sleight of hand from Labour could be to neutralise this debate by targeting older people with more free bus/train travel (local routes only, perhaps).

    Highly progressive too.
    Funny definition of progressive you have.

    Please explain how it is progressive to be funding travel for the wealthiest generation, who don't need to get to work, while taxing the transportation of those who are getting to work in order to pay their rent and living expenses?
    I meant progressive within the older cohort, so easy to sell to younger Labour voters while simultaneously targeting older voters. I'm talking tactics.

    If you want a progressive transport policy overall, you would dramatically increase funding for buses and active travel more generally.
    If you want a truly progressive transport policy overall, you would slash fuel duty which disproportionately is a much heftier tax on transportation from the least well off - and is a tax the least well off can not evade.
    The least well off can't afford to buy a car in the first place.
    Betraying your ignorance.

    The least well off can't afford a brand new Tesla, but absolutely many can and do rely upon a cheap banger to run around in.

    Fuel duty is one of the most regressive taxes in the country.
    Are you suggesting we massively increase taxes on richer drivers?
    I am suggesting if you want to "progressively" tax income or wealth, you need to tax income or wealth, not use cars as a proxy.

    Any tax on transportation is regressive - and transportation is a good thing, not something to be reduced or discouraged. Taxes on transportation should be as low as possible.

    Taxes on externalities (like pollution) are entirely reasonable, but hefty taxes on transportation itself instead are not.
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 4,730
    edited August 2023

    That will be a 3 game ban as it is a red card for violent conduct. Her tournament is over.

    Even if England win, would you want someone that stupid on the pitch?
    Considering she's been one of England's best players? Yes, of course you would.

    But she won't be, due to a moment of real stupidity. Doesn't mean she's stupid or a bad player all the time.
    She obviously isn't. Though there are players that despite their obvious talent aren't always the best thing for a team, particularly when the pressure is on. Lets hope it was just a one off and she comes back.

    Was Wayne Rooney a positive? He scored lots of goals, but...


    Anyway, bring on the penalties.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,987

    Peck said:

    Leon said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Leon said:

    This summer is the first time I’ve felt that London is SERIOUSLY recovering from the twin blows of Covid and Brexit

    It might partly be because I’ve travelled so much - and I’ve seen how fucked everywhere else is

    Nonetheless my usual “London is back” cheerleading has a bit more conviction about it, than normal

    Off out in London tomorrow evening; will report back. I'm still sceptical of "London Is Back" though I v much want it to be.
    It’s almost pure anecdata and basically intuitive; you might well conclude I’m deluded

    Tho there are some genuine fact-based straws in the wind. International Tourism is back big time (it’s back almost everywhere in Europe). That’s great for the West End obvs

    Also the hideous candy shops are being closed down: as a matter of policy. That shows confidence. People are less desperate for rent-payers to fill retail

    Finally there’s the matter of comparisons. In an age of great uncertainty, London projects stability. Which feels quite precious now. eg You’re not going to boil to death nor freeze to bits (you might commit suicide because drizzle but hey).

    London’s politics is reassuringly centrist. As the EU swings hard right, British politics becomes more moderate. We’ve had our populist moment. Meanwhile London avoids the scourges that afflict American cities: we have almost none of the homeless opioid awfulness, crime is much lower, even the race debate is far less venomous, etc

    If you want to live in an English-speaking world city in a stable country, with world class culture, food, history - with access to the nicer bits of Europe but far away from wars and deadly heatwaves and migration waves - London is your only choice

    I’m genuinely optimistic
    There are only three English-speaking world cities. The other two are Singapore and New York, which are nowhere near Europe.
    There are more than three in England alone. Manchester, Liverpool and Birmingham and more.

    Not to forget that English is spoken in Amsterdam, Lisbon, Frankfurt, Stockholm ... and even in Paris.
    True but if you are very qualified and an English speaker and a high earner and have your pick of global cities it is likely to be between London, NYC, LA or San Francisco or Singapore as to where you go (maybe Paris if you speak French).

    Manchester, Liverpool and Birmingham are all interesting significant British cities but they are not top tier world cities
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,591

    Good morning, everyone.

    Mr. Ghedebrav, the USA's two party politics makes it more susceptible to polarisation (which may play into conspiracy theories) because to be pro- one side is almost the same as being anti- the other.

    Yes, having at least regionally and sporadically genuine third party options so you have a 2.5 party system really does help quite a bit.
  • GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,860

    Eabhal said:

    Phil said:

    Cicero said:

    Cicero said:

    What slightly puzzles me about Sunak´s attack on the long standing consensus that significantly restrictive green policies are necessary, is the very poor politics of his position.

    The fact is that there is a major strand of Tory support that firmly supports the principle of acting on climate change, even if they are not settled on policy details. These are core supporters of the Party, not strictly the "old maids bicycling to Communion" but certainly socially active Tories; the kind who staff Citizens Advice Bureaux, serve as local councilors or as in some other local capacity such as school governors charities or even magistrates. Many view with concern the financial position of their children or grandchildren but are equivocal about the inheritance tax situation. They raise money for local hospitals, they see the daily pressure on the NHS is not a myth.

    Increasingly they no longer view the Tories as "their party". Strident right wingers they are not, and while their natural moderation made them abhor Corbyn, increasingly they view the Daily Mail, Trumpian style hostility expressed by the likes of Braverman, Patel and even Sunak himself as hostility directed towards them- and as they watch public services dissolve into a shambles, they are increasingly not sitting on the sidelines any more.

    Every Liberal Democrat branch in the country can tell you of these former Conservatives now coming out to campaign for the Lib Dems. This abandonment of a major plank of the green agenda will turn this trickle into something a lot bigger. Places like Surrey, Gloucestershire and Aberdeenshire are seeing the Lib Dems not only running things locally, but now looking like making major progress in the national battle too.

    This green U-turn by Sunak could be the final mistake that alienates the Shires from the Tories for the last time.

    It's a core vote strategy designed to prevent a total Tory wipe out, aimed at winning the next but one or two elections not the next one.
    What core vote, if they have alienated the active middle class?
    Retired pensioners.
    My retired parents love bussing around for free (primarily to wind me up, I think).

    A sleight of hand from Labour could be to neutralise this debate by targeting older people with more free bus/train travel (local routes only, perhaps).

    Highly progressive too.
    Funny definition of progressive you have.

    Please explain how it is progressive to be funding travel for the wealthiest generation, who don't need to get to work, while taxing the transportation of those who are getting to work in order to pay their rent and living expenses?
    My retired mum has more disposable income than we do (even though we both earn a reasonable living(, and it drives me mad how she gets free or discounted travel all over the shop (not to mention tickets for things and other various OAP perks).

    The difficulty is that there is huge chunk of pensioners who would genuinely struggle to survive without them. Just annoys me that there's a load of retired and well-off boomers freeloading on the top.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,955

    Peck said:

    Leon said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Leon said:

    This summer is the first time I’ve felt that London is SERIOUSLY recovering from the twin blows of Covid and Brexit

    It might partly be because I’ve travelled so much - and I’ve seen how fucked everywhere else is

    Nonetheless my usual “London is back” cheerleading has a bit more conviction about it, than normal

    Off out in London tomorrow evening; will report back. I'm still sceptical of "London Is Back" though I v much want it to be.
    It’s almost pure anecdata and basically intuitive; you might well conclude I’m deluded

    Tho there are some genuine fact-based straws in the wind. International Tourism is back big time (it’s back almost everywhere in Europe). That’s great for the West End obvs

    Also the hideous candy shops are being closed down: as a matter of policy. That shows confidence. People are less desperate for rent-payers to fill retail

    Finally there’s the matter of comparisons. In an age of great uncertainty, London projects stability. Which feels quite precious now. eg You’re not going to boil to death nor freeze to bits (you might commit suicide because drizzle but hey).

    London’s politics is reassuringly centrist. As the EU swings hard right, British politics becomes more moderate. We’ve had our populist moment. Meanwhile London avoids the scourges that afflict American cities: we have almost none of the homeless opioid awfulness, crime is much lower, even the race debate is far less venomous, etc

    If you want to live in an English-speaking world city in a stable country, with world class culture, food, history - with access to the nicer bits of Europe but far away from wars and deadly heatwaves and migration waves - London is your only choice

    I’m genuinely optimistic
    There are only three English-speaking world cities. The other two are Singapore and New York, which are nowhere near Europe.
    There are more than three in England alone. Manchester, Liverpool and Birmingham and more.

    Not to forget that English is spoken in Amsterdam, Lisbon, Frankfurt, Stockholm ... and even in Paris.
    I would add Melbourne & Sydney, both over 5 million with highly diverse populations. Jo'burg too?

  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,706
    Wells is a nice city.
  • PeckPeck Posts: 517
    edited August 2023
    HYUFD said:

    Cicero said:

    What slightly puzzles me about Sunak´s attack on the long standing consensus that significantly restrictive green policies are necessary, is the very poor politics of his position.

    The fact is that there is a major strand of Tory support that firmly supports the principle of acting on climate change, even if they are not settled on policy details. These are core supporters of the Party, not strictly the "old maids bicycling to Communion" but certainly socially active Tories; the kind who staff Citizens Advice Bureaux, serve as local councilors or as in some other local capacity such as school governors charities or even magistrates. Many view with concern the financial position of their children or grandchildren but are equivocal about the inheritance tax situation. They raise money for local hospitals, they see the daily pressure on the NHS is not a myth.

    Increasingly they no longer view the Tories as "their party". Strident right wingers they are not, and while their natural moderation made them abhor Corbyn, increasingly they view the Daily Mail, Trumpian style hostility expressed by the likes of Braverman, Patel and even Sunak himself as hostility directed towards them- and as they watch public services dissolve into a shambles, they are increasingly not sitting on the sidelines any more.

    Every Liberal Democrat branch in the country can tell you of these former Conservatives now coming out to campaign for the Lib Dems. This abandonment of a major plank of the green agenda will turn this trickle into something a lot bigger. Places like Surrey, Gloucestershire and Aberdeenshire are seeing the Lib Dems not only running things locally, but now looking like making major progress in the national battle too.

    This green U-turn by Sunak could be the final mistake that alienates the Shires from the Tories for the last time.

    A handful of upper middle class Remain voting areas of the Shires in the most prosperous parts of Oxfordshire, Surrey and Hertfordshire maybe. However remember even the South East Shires voted majority Leave in 2016, they aren't any more socially liberal and pro climate taxes than the national average and Tory voters there certainly aren't
    It'd be hilarious if demographics geniuses managing the Tory campaign really did set a lot of stock by who's a "Remainer" and who's a "Leaver".

    Why not go the whole hog and theorise in terms of supporters and opponents of Irish independence, or votes for women? There's probably a range of attitudes towards the Boers too. And which voters incline towards the Union and which towards the Confederacy.

    If I had the chance, I'd vote for Britain to rejoin the EU and to join the eurozone too. I'd vote for whacking up inheritance tax towards the roof on all estates worth say more than £2m. I also think manmade climate change is a lie and if Nigel Farage ever gets a referendum on Net Zero, he can count on my support. Where do I fit in?
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,505
    Leon said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Leon said:

    This summer is the first time I’ve felt that London is SERIOUSLY recovering from the twin blows of Covid and Brexit

    It might partly be because I’ve travelled so much - and I’ve seen how fucked everywhere else is

    Nonetheless my usual “London is back” cheerleading has a bit more conviction about it, than normal

    Off out in London tomorrow evening; will report back. I'm still sceptical of "London Is Back" though I v much want it to be.
    It’s almost pure anecdata and basically intuitive; you might well conclude I’m deluded

    Tho there are some genuine fact-based straws in the wind. International Tourism is back big time (it’s back almost everywhere in Europe). That’s great for the West End obvs

    Also the hideous candy shops are being closed down: as a matter of policy. That shows confidence. People are less desperate for rent-payers to fill retail

    Finally there’s the matter of comparisons. In an age of great uncertainty, London projects stability. Which feels quite precious now. eg You’re not going to boil to death nor freeze to bits (you might commit suicide because drizzle but hey).

    London’s politics is reassuringly centrist. As the EU swings hard right, British politics becomes more moderate. We’ve had our populist moment. Meanwhile London avoids the scourges that afflict American cities: we have almost none of the homeless opioid awfulness, crime is much lower, even the race debate is far less venomous, etc

    If you want to live in an English-speaking world city in a stable country, with world class culture, food, history - with access to the nicer bits of Europe but far away from wars and deadly heatwaves and migration waves - London is your only choice

    I’m genuinely optimistic



    You forgot the , "and you are a millionaire" bit
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,591
    Peck said:

    Cicero said:

    What slightly puzzles me about Sunak´s attack on the long standing consensus that significantly restrictive green policies are necessary, is the very poor politics of his position.

    The fact is that there is a major strand of Tory support that firmly supports the principle of acting on climate change, even if they are not settled on policy details. These are core supporters of the Party, not strictly the "old maids bicycling to Communion" but certainly socially active Tories; the kind who staff Citizens Advice Bureaux, serve as local councilors or as in some other local capacity such as school governors charities or even magistrates. Many view with concern the financial position of their children or grandchildren but are equivocal about the inheritance tax situation. They raise money for local hospitals, they see the daily pressure on the NHS is not a myth.

    Increasingly they no longer view the Tories as "their party". Strident right wingers they are not, and while their natural moderation made them abhor Corbyn, increasingly they view the Daily Mail, Trumpian style hostility expressed by the likes of Braverman, Patel and even Sunak himself as hostility directed towards them- and as they watch public services dissolve into a shambles, they are increasingly not sitting on the sidelines any more.

    Every Liberal Democrat branch in the country can tell you of these former Conservatives now coming out to campaign for the Lib Dems. This abandonment of a major plank of the green agenda will turn this trickle into something a lot bigger. Places like Surrey, Gloucestershire and Aberdeenshire are seeing the Lib Dems not only running things locally, but now looking like making major progress in the national battle too.

    This green U-turn by Sunak could be the final mistake that alienates the Shires from the Tories for the last time.

    As if the green agenda is anything other than Malthusianism.
    Keep on believing it can be squared with maintaining public services and free-at-the-point-of-use "health" provision for the proles if you wish.
    Some greens (and Greens) are malthusian, or have what I regard as utterly absurd views about the benefits to the world that have come with the industrial and agricultural revolutions.

    And of course having unrealistic views about viable policies or the impacts of other policies is par for the course in politics.

    Doesn't mean that we cannot do a great many green things, and that a sizeable chunk of the natural right are happy with that, depending how it is phrased.

    That has been the great success of green campaigners - even if people are frustrated by or disagree with the extremists of XR or Just Stop Oil and the like, or don't agree in population decline as a solving measure or whatever, enough do believe in the threats and risks, and support doing something about it.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,148

    Eabhal said:

    Phil said:

    Cicero said:

    Cicero said:

    What slightly puzzles me about Sunak´s attack on the long standing consensus that significantly restrictive green policies are necessary, is the very poor politics of his position.

    The fact is that there is a major strand of Tory support that firmly supports the principle of acting on climate change, even if they are not settled on policy details. These are core supporters of the Party, not strictly the "old maids bicycling to Communion" but certainly socially active Tories; the kind who staff Citizens Advice Bureaux, serve as local councilors or as in some other local capacity such as school governors charities or even magistrates. Many view with concern the financial position of their children or grandchildren but are equivocal about the inheritance tax situation. They raise money for local hospitals, they see the daily pressure on the NHS is not a myth.

    Increasingly they no longer view the Tories as "their party". Strident right wingers they are not, and while their natural moderation made them abhor Corbyn, increasingly they view the Daily Mail, Trumpian style hostility expressed by the likes of Braverman, Patel and even Sunak himself as hostility directed towards them- and as they watch public services dissolve into a shambles, they are increasingly not sitting on the sidelines any more.

    Every Liberal Democrat branch in the country can tell you of these former Conservatives now coming out to campaign for the Lib Dems. This abandonment of a major plank of the green agenda will turn this trickle into something a lot bigger. Places like Surrey, Gloucestershire and Aberdeenshire are seeing the Lib Dems not only running things locally, but now looking like making major progress in the national battle too.

    This green U-turn by Sunak could be the final mistake that alienates the Shires from the Tories for the last time.

    It's a core vote strategy designed to prevent a total Tory wipe out, aimed at winning the next but one or two elections not the next one.
    What core vote, if they have alienated the active middle class?
    Retired pensioners.
    My retired parents love bussing around for free (primarily to wind me up, I think).

    A sleight of hand from Labour could be to neutralise this debate by targeting older people with more free bus/train travel (local routes only, perhaps).

    Highly progressive too.
    Funny definition of progressive you have.

    Please explain how it is progressive to be funding travel for the wealthiest generation, who don't need to get to work, while taxing the transportation of those who are getting to work in order to pay their rent and living expenses?
    One think we should do, is move the EV subsidies to cheaper cars.

    The £50k+ EV market is up and running. Expanding rapidly. They were the subject of subsidies and encouragement when that is all there was.

    What we need is sub £30k EVs - move the subsidies there.

    In the US, targeting lower sale prices has encouraged the manufacturers to aim for lower and lower prices.
  • HYUFD said:

    Peck said:

    Leon said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Leon said:

    This summer is the first time I’ve felt that London is SERIOUSLY recovering from the twin blows of Covid and Brexit

    It might partly be because I’ve travelled so much - and I’ve seen how fucked everywhere else is

    Nonetheless my usual “London is back” cheerleading has a bit more conviction about it, than normal

    Off out in London tomorrow evening; will report back. I'm still sceptical of "London Is Back" though I v much want it to be.
    It’s almost pure anecdata and basically intuitive; you might well conclude I’m deluded

    Tho there are some genuine fact-based straws in the wind. International Tourism is back big time (it’s back almost everywhere in Europe). That’s great for the West End obvs

    Also the hideous candy shops are being closed down: as a matter of policy. That shows confidence. People are less desperate for rent-payers to fill retail

    Finally there’s the matter of comparisons. In an age of great uncertainty, London projects stability. Which feels quite precious now. eg You’re not going to boil to death nor freeze to bits (you might commit suicide because drizzle but hey).

    London’s politics is reassuringly centrist. As the EU swings hard right, British politics becomes more moderate. We’ve had our populist moment. Meanwhile London avoids the scourges that afflict American cities: we have almost none of the homeless opioid awfulness, crime is much lower, even the race debate is far less venomous, etc

    If you want to live in an English-speaking world city in a stable country, with world class culture, food, history - with access to the nicer bits of Europe but far away from wars and deadly heatwaves and migration waves - London is your only choice

    I’m genuinely optimistic
    There are only three English-speaking world cities. The other two are Singapore and New York, which are nowhere near Europe.
    There are more than three in England alone. Manchester, Liverpool and Birmingham and more.

    Not to forget that English is spoken in Amsterdam, Lisbon, Frankfurt, Stockholm ... and even in Paris.
    True but if you are very qualified and an English speaker and a high earner and have your pick of global cities it is likely to be between London, NYC, LA or San Francisco or Singapore as to where you go (maybe Paris if you speak French).

    Manchester, Liverpool and Birmingham are all interesting significant British cities but they are not top tier world cities
    Something that the statistics show is very clearly not the case.

    Thousands of people from all over the world, qualified, English speakers and yes high earners too, can and do go to each of those cities.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,955
    Ghedebrav said:

    Eabhal said:

    Phil said:

    Cicero said:

    Cicero said:

    What slightly puzzles me about Sunak´s attack on the long standing consensus that significantly restrictive green policies are necessary, is the very poor politics of his position.

    The fact is that there is a major strand of Tory support that firmly supports the principle of acting on climate change, even if they are not settled on policy details. These are core supporters of the Party, not strictly the "old maids bicycling to Communion" but certainly socially active Tories; the kind who staff Citizens Advice Bureaux, serve as local councilors or as in some other local capacity such as school governors charities or even magistrates. Many view with concern the financial position of their children or grandchildren but are equivocal about the inheritance tax situation. They raise money for local hospitals, they see the daily pressure on the NHS is not a myth.

    Increasingly they no longer view the Tories as "their party". Strident right wingers they are not, and while their natural moderation made them abhor Corbyn, increasingly they view the Daily Mail, Trumpian style hostility expressed by the likes of Braverman, Patel and even Sunak himself as hostility directed towards them- and as they watch public services dissolve into a shambles, they are increasingly not sitting on the sidelines any more.

    Every Liberal Democrat branch in the country can tell you of these former Conservatives now coming out to campaign for the Lib Dems. This abandonment of a major plank of the green agenda will turn this trickle into something a lot bigger. Places like Surrey, Gloucestershire and Aberdeenshire are seeing the Lib Dems not only running things locally, but now looking like making major progress in the national battle too.

    This green U-turn by Sunak could be the final mistake that alienates the Shires from the Tories for the last time.

    It's a core vote strategy designed to prevent a total Tory wipe out, aimed at winning the next but one or two elections not the next one.
    What core vote, if they have alienated the active middle class?
    Retired pensioners.
    My retired parents love bussing around for free (primarily to wind me up, I think).

    A sleight of hand from Labour could be to neutralise this debate by targeting older people with more free bus/train travel (local routes only, perhaps).

    Highly progressive too.
    Funny definition of progressive you have.

    Please explain how it is progressive to be funding travel for the wealthiest generation, who don't need to get to work, while taxing the transportation of those who are getting to work in order to pay their rent and living expenses?
    My retired mum has more disposable income than we do (even though we both earn a reasonable living(, and it drives me mad how she gets free or discounted travel all over the shop (not to mention tickets for things and other various OAP perks).

    The difficulty is that there is huge chunk of pensioners who would genuinely struggle to survive without them. Just annoys me that there's a load of retired and well-off boomers freeloading on the top.
    Agree, but those are the kind of voters Labour needs to vaguely keep onside while simultaneously coming across as progressive and green.

    = Loads more bus provision, and pensioners still get it for free
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,415
    It's beginning to look a lot like penalties Christmas !
  • MiklosvarMiklosvar Posts: 1,855

    Taz said:

    As reported in a few papers over the weekend our friends at Just Stop Oil are looking to disrupt premier league soccer games this season too.

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/23364923/just-stop-oil-premier-league/

    For some reason I am reminded of the following story.

    Instituto Cervantes (Spanish cultural centre in London) sold up their incredibly valuable building near Sloane Square. Moved to Central London.

    The building was bought by a Russian oligarch. Who was planning on converting it back to a house. Would be very nice.

    Got squatted. The usual types etc. They declared that they would never move, legal stuff etc.

    Then, they left overnight. So the story goes, someone explained to them the reputation of said oligarch.

    I love the line in fear and Loathing in LV: This is not intended to sound like a threat, but if I were you I'd take it that way.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,505
    Taz said:

    Eabhal said:

    Phil said:

    Cicero said:

    Cicero said:

    What slightly puzzles me about Sunak´s attack on the long standing consensus that significantly restrictive green policies are necessary, is the very poor politics of his position.

    The fact is that there is a major strand of Tory support that firmly supports the principle of acting on climate change, even if they are not settled on policy details. These are core supporters of the Party, not strictly the "old maids bicycling to Communion" but certainly socially active Tories; the kind who staff Citizens Advice Bureaux, serve as local councilors or as in some other local capacity such as school governors charities or even magistrates. Many view with concern the financial position of their children or grandchildren but are equivocal about the inheritance tax situation. They raise money for local hospitals, they see the daily pressure on the NHS is not a myth.

    Increasingly they no longer view the Tories as "their party". Strident right wingers they are not, and while their natural moderation made them abhor Corbyn, increasingly they view the Daily Mail, Trumpian style hostility expressed by the likes of Braverman, Patel and even Sunak himself as hostility directed towards them- and as they watch public services dissolve into a shambles, they are increasingly not sitting on the sidelines any more.

    Every Liberal Democrat branch in the country can tell you of these former Conservatives now coming out to campaign for the Lib Dems. This abandonment of a major plank of the green agenda will turn this trickle into something a lot bigger. Places like Surrey, Gloucestershire and Aberdeenshire are seeing the Lib Dems not only running things locally, but now looking like making major progress in the national battle too.

    This green U-turn by Sunak could be the final mistake that alienates the Shires from the Tories for the last time.

    It's a core vote strategy designed to prevent a total Tory wipe out, aimed at winning the next but one or two elections not the next one.
    What core vote, if they have alienated the active middle class?
    Retired pensioners.
    My retired parents love bussing around for free (primarily to wind me up, I think).

    A sleight of hand from Labour could be to neutralise this debate by targeting older people with more free bus/train travel (local routes only, perhaps).

    Highly progressive too.
    Good idea, the older generation do not get enough from the state !!
    I have never applied for my free pass.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,256

    Eabhal said:

    Phil said:

    Cicero said:

    Cicero said:

    What slightly puzzles me about Sunak´s attack on the long standing consensus that significantly restrictive green policies are necessary, is the very poor politics of his position.

    The fact is that there is a major strand of Tory support that firmly supports the principle of acting on climate change, even if they are not settled on policy details. These are core supporters of the Party, not strictly the "old maids bicycling to Communion" but certainly socially active Tories; the kind who staff Citizens Advice Bureaux, serve as local councilors or as in some other local capacity such as school governors charities or even magistrates. Many view with concern the financial position of their children or grandchildren but are equivocal about the inheritance tax situation. They raise money for local hospitals, they see the daily pressure on the NHS is not a myth.

    Increasingly they no longer view the Tories as "their party". Strident right wingers they are not, and while their natural moderation made them abhor Corbyn, increasingly they view the Daily Mail, Trumpian style hostility expressed by the likes of Braverman, Patel and even Sunak himself as hostility directed towards them- and as they watch public services dissolve into a shambles, they are increasingly not sitting on the sidelines any more.

    Every Liberal Democrat branch in the country can tell you of these former Conservatives now coming out to campaign for the Lib Dems. This abandonment of a major plank of the green agenda will turn this trickle into something a lot bigger. Places like Surrey, Gloucestershire and Aberdeenshire are seeing the Lib Dems not only running things locally, but now looking like making major progress in the national battle too.

    This green U-turn by Sunak could be the final mistake that alienates the Shires from the Tories for the last time.

    It's a core vote strategy designed to prevent a total Tory wipe out, aimed at winning the next but one or two elections not the next one.
    What core vote, if they have alienated the active middle class?
    Retired pensioners.
    My retired parents love bussing around for free (primarily to wind me up, I think).

    A sleight of hand from Labour could be to neutralise this debate by targeting older people with more free bus/train travel (local routes only, perhaps).

    Highly progressive too.
    Funny definition of progressive you have.

    Please explain how it is progressive to be funding travel for the wealthiest generation, who don't need to get to work, while taxing the transportation of those who are getting to work in order to pay their rent and living expenses?
    One think we should do, is move the EV subsidies to cheaper cars.

    The £50k+ EV market is up and running. Expanding rapidly. They were the subject of subsidies and encouragement when that is all there was.

    What we need is sub £30k EVs - move the subsidies there.

    In the US, targeting lower sale prices has encouraged the manufacturers to aim for lower and lower prices.
    Even so, the factories have to be built first.
    There's a lot of capacity coming on stream in the next couple of years.
    Mainly Europe, rather than here, but still.
  • londonpubmanlondonpubman Posts: 3,640
    malcolmg said:

    Taz said:

    Eabhal said:

    Phil said:

    Cicero said:

    Cicero said:

    What slightly puzzles me about Sunak´s attack on the long standing consensus that significantly restrictive green policies are necessary, is the very poor politics of his position.

    The fact is that there is a major strand of Tory support that firmly supports the principle of acting on climate change, even if they are not settled on policy details. These are core supporters of the Party, not strictly the "old maids bicycling to Communion" but certainly socially active Tories; the kind who staff Citizens Advice Bureaux, serve as local councilors or as in some other local capacity such as school governors charities or even magistrates. Many view with concern the financial position of their children or grandchildren but are equivocal about the inheritance tax situation. They raise money for local hospitals, they see the daily pressure on the NHS is not a myth.

    Increasingly they no longer view the Tories as "their party". Strident right wingers they are not, and while their natural moderation made them abhor Corbyn, increasingly they view the Daily Mail, Trumpian style hostility expressed by the likes of Braverman, Patel and even Sunak himself as hostility directed towards them- and as they watch public services dissolve into a shambles, they are increasingly not sitting on the sidelines any more.

    Every Liberal Democrat branch in the country can tell you of these former Conservatives now coming out to campaign for the Lib Dems. This abandonment of a major plank of the green agenda will turn this trickle into something a lot bigger. Places like Surrey, Gloucestershire and Aberdeenshire are seeing the Lib Dems not only running things locally, but now looking like making major progress in the national battle too.

    This green U-turn by Sunak could be the final mistake that alienates the Shires from the Tories for the last time.

    It's a core vote strategy designed to prevent a total Tory wipe out, aimed at winning the next but one or two elections not the next one.
    What core vote, if they have alienated the active middle class?
    Retired pensioners.
    My retired parents love bussing around for free (primarily to wind me up, I think).

    A sleight of hand from Labour could be to neutralise this debate by targeting older people with more free bus/train travel (local routes only, perhaps).

    Highly progressive too.
    Good idea, the older generation do not get enough from the state !!
    I have never applied for my free pass.
    Is that because you go by limousine everywhere? 👍
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,606
    Eabhal said:

    Peck said:

    Leon said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Leon said:

    This summer is the first time I’ve felt that London is SERIOUSLY recovering from the twin blows of Covid and Brexit

    It might partly be because I’ve travelled so much - and I’ve seen how fucked everywhere else is

    Nonetheless my usual “London is back” cheerleading has a bit more conviction about it, than normal

    Off out in London tomorrow evening; will report back. I'm still sceptical of "London Is Back" though I v much want it to be.
    It’s almost pure anecdata and basically intuitive; you might well conclude I’m deluded

    Tho there are some genuine fact-based straws in the wind. International Tourism is back big time (it’s back almost everywhere in Europe). That’s great for the West End obvs

    Also the hideous candy shops are being closed down: as a matter of policy. That shows confidence. People are less desperate for rent-payers to fill retail

    Finally there’s the matter of comparisons. In an age of great uncertainty, London projects stability. Which feels quite precious now. eg You’re not going to boil to death nor freeze to bits (you might commit suicide because drizzle but hey).

    London’s politics is reassuringly centrist. As the EU swings hard right, British politics becomes more moderate. We’ve had our populist moment. Meanwhile London avoids the scourges that afflict American cities: we have almost none of the homeless opioid awfulness, crime is much lower, even the race debate is far less venomous, etc

    If you want to live in an English-speaking world city in a stable country, with world class culture, food, history - with access to the nicer bits of Europe but far away from wars and deadly heatwaves and migration waves - London is your only choice

    I’m genuinely optimistic
    There are only three English-speaking world cities. The other two are Singapore and New York, which are nowhere near Europe.
    There are more than three in England alone. Manchester, Liverpool and Birmingham and more.

    Not to forget that English is spoken in Amsterdam, Lisbon, Frankfurt, Stockholm ... and even in Paris.
    I would add Melbourne & Sydney, both over 5 million with highly diverse populations. Jo'burg too?

    No. Melbourne & Sydney are too far away from the rest of the world. If you go there you REALLY feel
    the isolation. Jo’burg is similarly isolated - and a crime-infested toilet. I presume you added it as a joke?
This discussion has been closed.