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Speculation is starting to mount on the election date – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,047
edited July 2023 in General
imageSpeculation is starting to mount on the election date – politicalbetting.com

The last possible time for the general election to be held is mid-January 2025 but few pundits believe Sunak will wait that long. The consensus at the moment is that he’ll wait until next year’s party conference and call the election for late October or early November.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • MiklosvarMiklosvar Posts: 1,855
    He knows he's going to lose, whatever the date. The temptation to go for an extra 6 months of being King of the World must be very strong.
  • 2025 not 2015 - that would be a definite losing bet.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 94,977
    Miklosvar said:

    He knows he's going to lose, whatever the date. The temptation to go for an extra 6 months of being King of the World must be very strong.

    And it gets him to 2 years in office.

    People already see the government as being dragged out, due to how tired it feels, I don't buy that going in the spring gets them anything positive, nor that the polls will be in a comforting place to encourage that choice.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,454
    edited July 2023
    FPT
    kle4 said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    pm215 said:

    Did we do Gove's speech about housing? https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-66287810

    As a definitely-non-Tory-supporter, my take:

    * it's good to see that Gove seems to favour basically the right thing (more houses, fast, with infrastructure)
    * it's easy to be sceptical about how much will actually happen and whether the promised public transport network will actually be good (as opposed to "pay stagecoach a wodge of cash to run three extra buses")
    * nimbys already out in force, I see
    * it's hard to see it getting beyond "consultants spend a few million on 'vision' documents" before the govt gets chucked out in 2024 and Labour throws it all out and does something else anyway...

    It's meaningless nonsense.

    "He added that developments would be done "in dialogue with local communities" and that Westminster should not "ride roughshod" over their views."

    Total NIMBYs charter. Their views should not be a factor whatsoever in whether new homes get built. Especially when it comes to converting existing developments.
    We know you would concrete all over the greenbelt whatever residents views but Rishi + Gove are right to focus building on brownbelt areas first
    You think there is such a thing as a "brownbelt" (your word) in places such as Oxford and Cambridge? We're not in Detroit.
    Yes, both cities of over 100,000 people
    Completely missing the point.

    Show us on a map where this "brownbelt" is. We'd all love to know so we can rush to buy this land everyone else has missed.
    Quite.

    I find this whole topic extremely depressing to be honest. Because politically it is considered unfeasible to be pro-development in any meaningful sense we get an awful lot of verbal slight of hand to pretend it is a trickier problem than it is, and to cast any desire for simpler development rules as wrong.

    So even though most people who favour development are also on board with building on brownfield sites, that is not enough and we get the frankly ludicrous proposition that every single bit of brownfield could easily and simply be developed to cover all needs, as if many will not come with complex issues and not all will in fact be viable. With the additional pretence that brownfield development does not also get loads of objections from locals and politicians in many case, so the idea you don't develop elsewhere because people don't like it but brownfield they will automatically like, is absurd.

    Then you get the implication or assertion that if you do support some additional building on currently undeveloped land you are favour of just concreting over the entire green belt, pretending a) that all green fields are green belt (they aren't, and the distinction is actually quite significant), b) that all edge of town locations are ecologically, agriculturally or significant in amenity, c) if you allow even a single field to be lost you might as well lose the whole lot, d) that nothing can or should be built on the green belt (policies will allow it, in specific situations, even now).

    I know being restrictive is more popular than what I would do, but it is just building up so many problems for the future. Aren't leaders meant to do more than just pander sometimes?
    FPT: One reason I'm so sarcastic is that I actually know some of the area, or did, well. I used to explore the canal-railway corridor in Oxford when visiting friends in my younger days - they lived along it and it was the easy way to get to them from the railway. Lots of character, wildlife (Crested Grebes breeding in a Brunelian borrow-pit), pubs (including one brewery-pub) as well as good walks, great history and industrial archaeology, and a derelict plot where Roger Bacon of all people is buried. When I went back a few years ago, I was astounded how in the intervening decades every last square metre of old canalside or coal yard or gasworks or scrappie or metalbashing factory had been crammed with little boxes and the view of the spires from the rivermeadows badly affected by medium-rise flats. (And lots of the pubs closed too.) My friends' allotments survived only because they were on flood-prone land. That was a brownbelt, sure, or rather strip, but it certainly doesn't exist now.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 31,357
    Brownbelt = turn Canary Wharf into a residential area.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 94,977
    Andy_JS said:

    Brownbelt = turn Canary Wharf into a residential area.

    People wouldn't object to that in droves as well? Give me a break.

    But I suppose objections to that is ok to ignore.
  • Smart51Smart51 Posts: 60
    Sunak knows that an election now will wipe out much of his party. If he waits, something might turn up. There are only two reasons he might call an election soon. One is the nuclear option - if his party rebels or tries to get rid of him he call an election. The other is if he knows something bad is about to break and wants to get the election in first.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 16,541
    kle4 said:

    Miklosvar said:

    He knows he's going to lose, whatever the date. The temptation to go for an extra 6 months of being King of the World must be very strong.

    And it gets him to 2 years in office.

    People already see the government as being dragged out, due to how tired it feels, I don't buy that going in the spring gets them anything positive, nor that the polls will be in a comforting place to encourage that choice.
    The theory is that inflation will be down to something not-awful by then, but the recessionary consequences of squeezing inflation won't have been felt, whereas they will have kicked in properly by autumn 2024.

    Dunno if that theory has anything in it, though.

    (The other benefit of spring 2024, which does make sense, is that it preempts what would otherwise be a horrible set of local elections in May 2024- that bit of the cycle last happened when Boris really was King of the World, so the Conservatives will do badly even if they do quite well.)
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 120,999
    edited July 2023
    Andy_JS said:

    Brownbelt = turn Canary Wharf into a residential area.

    Given wfh rates now there, maybe for much of it
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 61,466
    Oct/Nov 2024 GE will clash with era-defining election in USA which will decide whether it remains a democracy.

    Guess Mike is due a holiday then?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,454
    Andy_JS said:

    Brownbelt = turn Canary Wharf into a residential area.

    No, that's just reeuse of an existing building. Brownbelt is like the land that was reclaimed for the OLympics (and so with huge public subsidy). Old gasworks saturated with tars and phenols, that sort of thing.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,092
    Carnyx said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Brownbelt = turn Canary Wharf into a residential area.

    No, that's just reeuse of an existing building. Brownbelt is like the land that was reclaimed for the OLympics (and so with huge public subsidy). Old gasworks saturated with tars and phenols, that sort of thing.
    Canary Wharf used to be docks.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 120,999
    Last 2 PMs who lost a general election ie Brown + Major waited the full 5 years to maximise their time in power given likely defeat and I doubt Sunak will be different
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,378
    HYUFD said:

    Last 2 PMs who lost a general election ie Brown + Major waited the full 5 years to maximise their time in power given likely defeat and I doubt Sunak will be different

    Or: waiting the full 5 years leads to defeat.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,378
    edited July 2023

    Carnyx said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Brownbelt = turn Canary Wharf into a residential area.

    No, that's just reeuse of an existing building. Brownbelt is like the land that was reclaimed for the OLympics (and so with huge public subsidy). Old gasworks saturated with tars and phenols, that sort of thing.
    Canary Wharf used to be docks.
    No shit! Canary Wharf ? Are you sure?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 120,999
    edited July 2023

    HYUFD said:

    Last 2 PMs who lost a general election ie Brown + Major waited the full 5 years to maximise their time in power given likely defeat and I doubt Sunak will be different

    Or: waiting the full 5 years leads to defeat.
    Major would still have lost in 1996, Brown would still have lost in 2009, waiting got them an extra year as PM
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,378
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Last 2 PMs who lost a general election ie Brown + Major waited the full 5 years to maximise their time in power given likely defeat and I doubt Sunak will be different

    Or: waiting the full 5 years leads to defeat.
    Major would still have lost in 1996, Brown would still have lost in 2009, waiting got them an extra year as PM
    Brown probably would have won if he'd called an election just after becoming PM in 2007. Labour were ahead for a few months.

    Mid-term new PMs should call an election as soon as they take office.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 16,541
    HYUFD said:

    Last 2 PMs who lost a general election ie Brown + Major waited the full 5 years to maximise their time in power given likely defeat and I doubt Sunak will be different

    Also, Something Might Turn Up. It's not likely to, and I'm not sure a doomed government has ever undoomed itself. Maybe the nearest example is Alec Douglas-Home in 1964 losing but not that badly. Was there an obvious Deus ex machina for him, or just patient scrabbling? Pedro Sanchez has done a decent job of undooming himself, but Spanish politics has many more moving parts and he did an amazing job of twiddling them to his advantage.

    But if you have 100% certainty of defeat now versus 99% probability of defeat if you hang on a bit longer, hanging on is rational.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,092

    Carnyx said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Brownbelt = turn Canary Wharf into a residential area.

    No, that's just reeuse of an existing building. Brownbelt is like the land that was reclaimed for the OLympics (and so with huge public subsidy). Old gasworks saturated with tars and phenols, that sort of thing.
    Canary Wharf used to be docks.
    No shit! Canary Wharf ? Are you sure?
    @Carnyx was suggesting it wasn't a brownfield site back in the 1980s, but it was!
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 120,999
    edited July 2023

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Last 2 PMs who lost a general election ie Brown + Major waited the full 5 years to maximise their time in power given likely defeat and I doubt Sunak will be different

    Or: waiting the full 5 years leads to defeat.
    Major would still have lost in 1996, Brown would still have lost in 2009, waiting got them an extra year as PM
    Brown probably would have won if he'd called an election just after becoming PM in 2007. Labour were ahead for a few months.

    Mid-term new PMs should call an election as soon as they take office.
    Only in the brief window before Osborne's IHT cut proposal + as May showed in 2017 big poll leads for new PMs can swiftly collapse in the campaign
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 16,541

    HYUFD said:

    Last 2 PMs who lost a general election ie Brown + Major waited the full 5 years to maximise their time in power given likely defeat and I doubt Sunak will be different

    Or: waiting the full 5 years leads to defeat.
    I suspect the cause and effect go the other way. If a government reaches year 4 and is feeling confident, it will call an election and expect to win. Governments normally only go the full five years because they haven't spotted a window of opportunity before then.

    So it's more that impending defeat leads to a government taking the full five year term.
  • PeckPeck Posts: 517
    PB Brains Trust: can you think of a loanword from French that ends in unpronounced t and is stressed on the final syllable in normal British pronunciation? (So not beret or debut.)
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 31,357
    "Former Premier League star Chris Bart-Williams dies aged 49 as tributes pour in"

    https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/premier-league-star-chris-bart-williams-dies-aged-49-sheffield-wednesday/
  • GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,860

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Last 2 PMs who lost a general election ie Brown + Major waited the full 5 years to maximise their time in power given likely defeat and I doubt Sunak will be different

    Or: waiting the full 5 years leads to defeat.
    Major would still have lost in 1996, Brown would still have lost in 2009, waiting got them an extra year as PM
    Brown probably would have won if he'd called an election just after becoming PM in 2007. Labour were ahead for a few months.

    Mid-term new PMs should call an election as soon as they take office.
    I agree. Changing PM will usually result in a fairly significant change in the character of government as they move their own squad into ministries and boot the last lot out. People vote for a government (and a manifesto) as much as they do for a local representative, as much as pedants will be quick to note that PM is not the same as president etc.

    The Truss agenda was quite different to the Johnson one, and whether you think she was batshit or not, her plans - big plans - were not plans that the public endorsed at the GE.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 31,357
    Peck said:

    PB Brains Trust: can you think of a loanword from French that ends in unpronounced t and is stressed on the final syllable in normal British pronunciation? (So not beret or debut.)

    Rapport?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 120,999
    @JAHeale
    2h
    Earl Russell made his maiden speech in the Lords today, following his triumph over Earl Lloyd George in the most recent hereditary by-election. A belated victory for the Whigs over the Radicals.
    https://twitter.com/JAHeale/status/1683569118409023496?s=20
  • GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,860
    Peck said:

    PB Brains Trust: can you think of a loanword from French that ends in unpronounced t and is stressed on the final syllable in normal British pronunciation? (So not beret or debut.)

    Cabaret?
  • PeckPeck Posts: 517
    edited July 2023

    HYUFD said:

    Last 2 PMs who lost a general election ie Brown + Major waited the full 5 years to maximise their time in power given likely defeat and I doubt Sunak will be different

    Also, Something Might Turn Up. It's not likely to, and I'm not sure a doomed government has ever undoomed itself. Maybe the nearest example is Alec Douglas-Home in 1964 losing but not that badly. Was there an obvious Deus ex machina for him, or just patient scrabbling? Pedro Sanchez has done a decent job of undooming himself, but Spanish politics has many more moving parts and he did an amazing job of twiddling them to his advantage.

    But if you have 100% certainty of defeat now versus 99% probability of defeat if you hang on a bit longer, hanging on is rational.
    Your concept of doomed doesn't sound very rational. Not that I'm against the irrational.

    The boats. The boats. Plus some anti-woke to make the Labour leadership defend on a point they really don't want to defend on. There's probably a cricketing analogy.

    Interesting that the last time a British government lost three seats in a single day in by-elections was in 1968. Nineteen freaking sixty-eight! A swing to the right! (And guess what issue was big.) In June of the same year, and even more surprisingly for many who don't already know it, the right wing won a parliamentary election in France.

    Things move ever faster. Labour need to cause a positive (for them) surprise. Which is a tall order. They can't win on "time for a change". Voters are too scared for that.
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 4,278
    Ghedebrav said:

    Peck said:

    PB Brains Trust: can you think of a loanword from French that ends in unpronounced t and is stressed on the final syllable in normal British pronunciation? (So not beret or debut.)

    Cabaret?
    I think that's sometimes stressed on the first syllable in Britain. Rapport as above is always the last though.
  • GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,860
    carnforth said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Peck said:

    PB Brains Trust: can you think of a loanword from French that ends in unpronounced t and is stressed on the final syllable in normal British pronunciation? (So not beret or debut.)

    Cabaret?
    I think that's sometimes stressed on the first syllable in Britain. Rapport as above is always the last though.
    I only say it as sung by Liza Minnelli, of course.

    Bouquet then? Or ricochet?
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 31,357
    Ghedebrav said:

    carnforth said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Peck said:

    PB Brains Trust: can you think of a loanword from French that ends in unpronounced t and is stressed on the final syllable in normal British pronunciation? (So not beret or debut.)

    Cabaret?
    I think that's sometimes stressed on the first syllable in Britain. Rapport as above is always the last though.
    I only say it as sung by Liza Minnelli, of course.

    Bouquet then? Or ricochet?
    Bouquet, yes. Ricochet is often stressed on the first syllable AFAIK.
  • PeckPeck Posts: 517
    Andy_JS said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    carnforth said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Peck said:

    PB Brains Trust: can you think of a loanword from French that ends in unpronounced t and is stressed on the final syllable in normal British pronunciation? (So not beret or debut.)

    Cabaret?
    I think that's sometimes stressed on the first syllable in Britain. Rapport as above is always the last though.
    I only say it as sung by Liza Minnelli, of course.

    Bouquet then? Or ricochet?
    Bouquet, yes. Ricochet is often stressed on the first syllable AFAIK.
    Thanks for all the answers. Bouquet may fit the bill. I'm actually looking for a word that can serve as a verb or at least have a verbal-type adjective formed from it. Bouquet is the best so far.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 50,604
    Peck said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    carnforth said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Peck said:

    PB Brains Trust: can you think of a loanword from French that ends in unpronounced t and is stressed on the final syllable in normal British pronunciation? (So not beret or debut.)

    Cabaret?
    I think that's sometimes stressed on the first syllable in Britain. Rapport as above is always the last though.
    I only say it as sung by Liza Minnelli, of course.

    Bouquet then? Or ricochet?
    Bouquet, yes. Ricochet is often stressed on the first syllable AFAIK.
    Thanks for all the answers. Bouquet may fit the bill. I'm actually looking for a word that can serve as a verb or at least have a verbal-type adjective formed from it. Bouquet is the best so far.
    Crochet.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 68,750
    LOL

    Microsoft owns the trademark for X. This is just too good.
    https://twitter.com/keithedwards/status/1683586586007437312
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,089
    Peck said:

    HYUFD said:

    Last 2 PMs who lost a general election ie Brown + Major waited the full 5 years to maximise their time in power given likely defeat and I doubt Sunak will be different

    Also, Something Might Turn Up. It's not likely to, and I'm not sure a doomed government has ever undoomed itself. Maybe the nearest example is Alec Douglas-Home in 1964 losing but not that badly. Was there an obvious Deus ex machina for him, or just patient scrabbling? Pedro Sanchez has done a decent job of undooming himself, but Spanish politics has many more moving parts and he did an amazing job of twiddling them to his advantage.

    But if you have 100% certainty of defeat now versus 99% probability of defeat if you hang on a bit longer, hanging on is rational.
    Your concept of doomed doesn't sound very rational. Not that I'm against the irrational.

    The boats. The boats. Plus some anti-woke to make the Labour leadership defend on a point they really don't want to defend on. There's probably a cricketing analogy.

    Interesting that the last time a British government lost three seats in a single day in by-elections was in 1968. Nineteen freaking sixty-eight! A swing to the right! (And guess what issue was big.) In June of the same year, and even more surprisingly for many who don't already know it, the right wing won a parliamentary election in France.

    Things move ever faster. Labour need to cause a positive (for them) surprise. Which is a tall order. They can't win on "time for a change". Voters are too scared for that.
    I don't think that is the case anymore. The Tory party - or at least its leadership - are so utterly bankrupt in terms of ideas and morals that I think Labour will win simply because they aren't the Tories. I know this is said a lot but in ths case I genuinely believe it.

    It still won't make me vote Labour personally. I see nothing admirable about them other than a dull reliability. But I think enough people will to get them a majority.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 68,750
    Nigelb said:

    LOL

    Microsoft owns the trademark for X. This is just too good.
    https://twitter.com/keithedwards/status/1683586586007437312

    That is, of course, for the Xbox.

    It appears Instagram and FB owner Meta holds the trademark for "X" as it relates to "online social networking services... social networking services in the fields of entertainment, gaming and application development..."
    https://twitter.com/alexweprin/status/1683568173809844229
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,089
    Peck said:

    PB Brains Trust: can you think of a loanword from French that ends in unpronounced t and is stressed on the final syllable in normal British pronunciation? (So not beret or debut.)

    Tourniquet?
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,089
    Nigelb said:

    LOL

    Microsoft owns the trademark for X. This is just too good.
    https://twitter.com/keithedwards/status/1683586586007437312

    How can you trademark a letter?
  • Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 4,780
    On thread, I also think he's still planning to go early. That's because the 12 month historic base effects on gas and electricity prices are already dragging down cpi inflation and will be doing so even more when the October 2023 cpi loses the last big price cap hike that happened in October 2022. But those beneficial effects of energy costs on inflation will start to unwind in the July 2024 cpi, published August 2024, pushing inflation back up. Obviously there are many other influences on inflation but the energy base effect is nonetheless still large and predictable.

    Sunak can't afford inflation to be heading upwards again at the time of the GE. So I think he's got to be planning to go to the country by July 2024 at the latest.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 31,357
    The only reason to go early would be to catch the opposition out, but obviously discussions like this make that less likely.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 68,750

    Nigelb said:

    LOL

    Microsoft owns the trademark for X. This is just too good.
    https://twitter.com/keithedwards/status/1683586586007437312

    How can you trademark a letter?
    Evidently you can in relation to a particular service or product.
    There's a pic of the trademark grant on the tweet I linked to.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 68,750

    Peck said:

    PB Brains Trust: can you think of a loanword from French that ends in unpronounced t and is stressed on the final syllable in normal British pronunciation? (So not beret or debut.)

    Tourniquet?
    Stress on first syllable.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,228
    Peck said:

    PB Brains Trust: can you think of a loanword from French that ends in unpronounced t and is stressed on the final syllable in normal British pronunciation? (So not beret or debut.)

    Wait: isn't debut stressed on the final syllable: deb-U?
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,162
    Moët.

    (Ducks).
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,092
    Peck said:

    PB Brains Trust: can you think of a loanword from French that ends in unpronounced t and is stressed on the final syllable in normal British pronunciation? (So not beret or debut.)

    Beret
  • londonpubmanlondonpubman Posts: 3,601
    It won't be Jan 2025. No one will like that.

    I think Spring 2024 or Oct 2024. Spring 2024 after a 'hopeful' budget will be seen as the more positive, decisive approach.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 31,357

    Peck said:

    PB Brains Trust: can you think of a loanword from French that ends in unpronounced t and is stressed on the final syllable in normal British pronunciation? (So not beret or debut.)

    Beret
    Isn't that usually with a first syllable stress? Ballet of course would be one in American English.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 31,357
    rcs1000 said:

    Peck said:

    PB Brains Trust: can you think of a loanword from French that ends in unpronounced t and is stressed on the final syllable in normal British pronunciation? (So not beret or debut.)

    Wait: isn't debut stressed on the final syllable: deb-U?
    It is when it's Richie Benaud saying it.
  • PeckPeck Posts: 517
    edited July 2023
    rcs1000 said:

    Peck said:

    PB Brains Trust: can you think of a loanword from French that ends in unpronounced t and is stressed on the final syllable in normal British pronunciation? (So not beret or debut.)

    Wait: isn't debut stressed on the final syllable: deb-U?
    Not in standard British pronunciation. The OED has it either with stress on the first syllable or with both syllables carrying equal weight as in French.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,084
    Andy_JS said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Peck said:

    PB Brains Trust: can you think of a loanword from French that ends in unpronounced t and is stressed on the final syllable in normal British pronunciation? (So not beret or debut.)

    Wait: isn't debut stressed on the final syllable: deb-U?
    It is when it's Richie Benaud saying it.
    Americans stress the final syllable on debut but OP asked for British English which tends to have equal stress, barring regional variations.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,089
    dixiedean said:

    Peck said:

    HYUFD said:

    Last 2 PMs who lost a general election ie Brown + Major waited the full 5 years to maximise their time in power given likely defeat and I doubt Sunak will be different

    Also, Something Might Turn Up. It's not likely to, and I'm not sure a doomed government has ever undoomed itself. Maybe the nearest example is Alec Douglas-Home in 1964 losing but not that badly. Was there an obvious Deus ex machina for him, or just patient scrabbling? Pedro Sanchez has done a decent job of undooming himself, but Spanish politics has many more moving parts and he did an amazing job of twiddling them to his advantage.

    But if you have 100% certainty of defeat now versus 99% probability of defeat if you hang on a bit longer, hanging on is rational.
    Your concept of doomed doesn't sound very rational. Not that I'm against the irrational.

    The boats. The boats. Plus some anti-woke to make the Labour leadership defend on a point they really don't want to defend on. There's probably a cricketing analogy.

    Interesting that the last time a British government lost three seats in a single day in by-elections was in 1968. Nineteen freaking sixty-eight! A swing to the right! (And guess what issue was big.) In June of the same year, and even more surprisingly for many who don't already know it, the right wing won a parliamentary election in France.

    Things move ever faster. Labour need to cause a positive (for them) surprise. Which is a tall order. They can't win on "time for a change". Voters are too scared for that.
    I don't think that is the case anymore. The Tory party - or at least its leadership - are so utterly bankrupt in terms of ideas and morals that I think Labour will win simply because they aren't the Tories. I know this is said a lot but in ths case I genuinely believe it.

    It still won't make me vote Labour personally. I see nothing admirable about them other than a dull reliability. But I think enough people will to get them a majority.
    See. I struggle with this answer. There are only 2 conceivable choices. A Labour led one or a Tory led one. I don't like the system, but it's the one we have.
    If one choice is "utterly bankrupt in terms of ideas and morals" does it not behove you to choose the other?
    Trusting others to make the right choice seems sub optimal.
    Not a criticism of you, but perhaps a different starting point?
    No because I view both choices as equally bad just in different ways. The current party of the Right is correct on many underlying principles but corrupt and incompetent. The two current parties of the left are dangerously wrong on many of the underlying principles but have not yet proved themselves overly corrupt or incompetent.

    Is it any better to have a vaguely competent doing stuff you fundamentally disagree with? I don't think so. My view is a plague on both their houses.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 94,977

    Nigelb said:

    LOL

    Microsoft owns the trademark for X. This is just too good.
    https://twitter.com/keithedwards/status/1683586586007437312

    How can you trademark a letter?
    People have trademarked dumber things, I've no doubt.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 94,977
    edited July 2023

    dixiedean said:

    Peck said:

    HYUFD said:

    Last 2 PMs who lost a general election ie Brown + Major waited the full 5 years to maximise their time in power given likely defeat and I doubt Sunak will be different

    Also, Something Might Turn Up. It's not likely to, and I'm not sure a doomed government has ever undoomed itself. Maybe the nearest example is Alec Douglas-Home in 1964 losing but not that badly. Was there an obvious Deus ex machina for him, or just patient scrabbling? Pedro Sanchez has done a decent job of undooming himself, but Spanish politics has many more moving parts and he did an amazing job of twiddling them to his advantage.

    But if you have 100% certainty of defeat now versus 99% probability of defeat if you hang on a bit longer, hanging on is rational.
    Your concept of doomed doesn't sound very rational. Not that I'm against the irrational.

    The boats. The boats. Plus some anti-woke to make the Labour leadership defend on a point they really don't want to defend on. There's probably a cricketing analogy.

    Interesting that the last time a British government lost three seats in a single day in by-elections was in 1968. Nineteen freaking sixty-eight! A swing to the right! (And guess what issue was big.) In June of the same year, and even more surprisingly for many who don't already know it, the right wing won a parliamentary election in France.

    Things move ever faster. Labour need to cause a positive (for them) surprise. Which is a tall order. They can't win on "time for a change". Voters are too scared for that.
    I don't think that is the case anymore. The Tory party - or at least its leadership - are so utterly bankrupt in terms of ideas and morals that I think Labour will win simply because they aren't the Tories. I know this is said a lot but in ths case I genuinely believe it.

    It still won't make me vote Labour personally. I see nothing admirable about them other than a dull reliability. But I think enough people will to get them a majority.
    See. I struggle with this answer. There are only 2 conceivable choices. A Labour led one or a Tory led one. I don't like the system, but it's the one we have.
    If one choice is "utterly bankrupt in terms of ideas and morals" does it not behove you to choose the other?
    Trusting others to make the right choice seems sub optimal.
    Not a criticism of you, but perhaps a different starting point?
    Is it any better to have a vaguely competent doing stuff you fundamentally disagree with? .
    I suppose that depends on the significance placed on the matters which are fundamentally disagreed with. There is a lot of rather important and actually apolitical stuff that needs to be done competently, or at least not damaged by incompetence. That might be worth quite a lot of leeway on the headline grabbing things which remain fundamentally wrong, but mileage will vary considerably.

    For me I think I would feel compelled to make a distinction between options, even if it was marginal, since it's not going to be exactly equally bad. Of course, if we're lucky we get entirely no hoper options which can give us an out from the choice.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 94,977
    HYUFD said:

    @JAHeale
    2h
    Earl Russell made his maiden speech in the Lords today, following his triumph over Earl Lloyd George in the most recent hereditary by-election. A belated victory for the Whigs over the Radicals.
    https://twitter.com/JAHeale/status/1683569118409023496?s=20

    I hope they never get around to sorting out the 'temporary' House of Lords situation if it means continued hilarity of by-elections for hereditary peers.
  • PeckPeck Posts: 517
    The reason I am interested is because I am trying to express as succinctly as possible the rule for doubling the final letter of a regular verb when forming the past tense. Once we have dealt with verbs that end in -e, -y or single -s, the rule "double only when the penultimate letter, considered on its own, represents a stressed vowel" is tantalisingly close to being sufficient. But bouquet breaks it. Or at least it does if we suppose the e on its own represents the final vowel sound. The last letter must be pronounced if it is to be doubled.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,084
    Peck said:

    The reason I am interested is because I am trying to express as succinctly as possible the rule for doubling the final letter of a regular verb when forming the past tense. Once we have dealt with verbs that end in -e, -y or single -s, the rule "double only when the penultimate letter, considered on its own, represents a stressed vowel" is tantalisingly close to being sufficient. But bouquet breaks it. Or at least it does if we suppose the e on its own represents the final vowel sound. The last letter must be pronounced if it is to be doubled.

    Is bouquet a verb?
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 31,357

    Peck said:

    The reason I am interested is because I am trying to express as succinctly as possible the rule for doubling the final letter of a regular verb when forming the past tense. Once we have dealt with verbs that end in -e, -y or single -s, the rule "double only when the penultimate letter, considered on its own, represents a stressed vowel" is tantalisingly close to being sufficient. But bouquet breaks it. Or at least it does if we suppose the e on its own represents the final vowel sound. The last letter must be pronounced if it is to be doubled.

    Is bouquet a verb?
    I don't think so.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 50,604

    Peck said:

    The reason I am interested is because I am trying to express as succinctly as possible the rule for doubling the final letter of a regular verb when forming the past tense. Once we have dealt with verbs that end in -e, -y or single -s, the rule "double only when the penultimate letter, considered on its own, represents a stressed vowel" is tantalisingly close to being sufficient. But bouquet breaks it. Or at least it does if we suppose the e on its own represents the final vowel sound. The last letter must be pronounced if it is to be doubled.

    Is bouquet a verb?
    How would Hyacinth Bucket pronounce “to bucket down with rain”?
  • PeckPeck Posts: 517
    edited July 2023

    Peck said:

    The reason I am interested is because I am trying to express as succinctly as possible the rule for doubling the final letter of a regular verb when forming the past tense. Once we have dealt with verbs that end in -e, -y or single -s, the rule "double only when the penultimate letter, considered on its own, represents a stressed vowel" is tantalisingly close to being sufficient. But bouquet breaks it. Or at least it does if we suppose the e on its own represents the final vowel sound. The last letter must be pronounced if it is to be doubled.

    Is bouquet a verb?
    There are some recorded instances of "bouqueted":

    https://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&q=bouqueted

    "bouqueted wines", "delightfully bouqueted", "lemon will be bouqueted"

    But even if we say it isn't a verb, it could still conceivably be one and in that case when forming the past tense or verbal adjective we wouldn't double the t.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 21,053

    Carnyx said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Brownbelt = turn Canary Wharf into a residential area.

    No, that's just reeuse of an existing building. Brownbelt is like the land that was reclaimed for the OLympics (and so with huge public subsidy). Old gasworks saturated with tars and phenols, that sort of thing.
    Canary Wharf used to be docks.
    No shit! Canary Wharf ? Are you sure?
    I thought it used to be Canaries. 50/50;chance! What were the odds?!
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 21,053

    Peck said:

    The reason I am interested is because I am trying to express as succinctly as possible the rule for doubling the final letter of a regular verb when forming the past tense. Once we have dealt with verbs that end in -e, -y or single -s, the rule "double only when the penultimate letter, considered on its own, represents a stressed vowel" is tantalisingly close to being sufficient. But bouquet breaks it. Or at least it does if we suppose the e on its own represents the final vowel sound. The last letter must be pronounced if it is to be doubled.

    Is bouquet a verb?
    I think you can verb a noun :)
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,084
    Peck said:

    Peck said:

    The reason I am interested is because I am trying to express as succinctly as possible the rule for doubling the final letter of a regular verb when forming the past tense. Once we have dealt with verbs that end in -e, -y or single -s, the rule "double only when the penultimate letter, considered on its own, represents a stressed vowel" is tantalisingly close to being sufficient. But bouquet breaks it. Or at least it does if we suppose the e on its own represents the final vowel sound. The last letter must be pronounced if it is to be doubled.

    Is bouquet a verb?
    There are some recorded instances of "bouqueted":

    https://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&q=bouqueted

    "bouqueted wines", "delightfully bouqueted", "lemon will be bouqueted"

    But even if we say it isn't a verb, it could still conceivably be one and in that case when forming the past tense or verbal adjective we wouldn't double the t.
    Those are adjectives, not verbs, and calling them verbal adjectives does not make them verbs. In any case, your rule is already broken by debut which, as previously discussed, has a stressed final syllable abroad (and arguably here) but without doubling the t.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 31,357
    The Spanish election result is an example of an early election paying off for the incumbent relative to what was expected to happen.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,084
    Peck said:

    The reason I am interested is because I am trying to express as succinctly as possible the rule for doubling the final letter of a regular verb when forming the past tense. Once we have dealt with verbs that end in -e, -y or single -s, the rule "double only when the penultimate letter, considered on its own, represents a stressed vowel" is tantalisingly close to being sufficient. But bouquet breaks it. Or at least it does if we suppose the e on its own represents the final vowel sound. The last letter must be pronounced if it is to be doubled.

    Your last letter rule seems closer than your final syllable rule, but what is the point? If you are computerising it, then just spell out each case before falling back on rules. This is not the 1970s where every byte counts.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 21,053
    Andy_JS said:

    The Spanish election result is an example of an early election paying off for the incumbent relative to what was expected to happen.

    That rather depends on whether the PSOE guy or the PP guy (fnarr, fnarr) gets to be PM. However if you think an Oct/Nov 23 or May 24 election will be won by Sunak, please feel free to do so. :)
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,271
    Peck said:

    PB Brains Trust: can you think of a loanword from French that ends in unpronounced t and is stressed on the final syllable in normal British pronunciation? (So not beret or debut.)

    duvet - or what we Americans call a quilt.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 31,357
    edited July 2023

    Peck said:

    PB Brains Trust: can you think of a loanword from French that ends in unpronounced t and is stressed on the final syllable in normal British pronunciation? (So not beret or debut.)

    duvet - or what we Americans call a quilt.
    Unfortunately not, because the stress is on the first syllable in British English. The same is true of many of these words, such as ballet, whereas American English puts it on the last syllable. BALL-et in England, ball-ET in North America.
  • Penddu2Penddu2 Posts: 680

    Nigelb said:

    LOL

    Microsoft owns the trademark for X. This is just too good.
    https://twitter.com/keithedwards/status/1683586586007437312

    How can you trademark a letter?
    Twitter is an X-parrot - it has ceased to be
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,077
    edited July 2023
    Good morning all.

    I totally agree with @MikeSmithson's suggestion here. I think the Conservatives should go for it in a bullish kind of way, all guns blazing in May or June, and hope they can pull off something remarkable.

    However, Sunak seems to be something of a ditherer so I doubt that they will. The fact that the speculation around Spring is out then means he will be seen to be waiting too long - doing a Brown / Major.

    The real problem is not Labour. There's no great love for Labour: they are polling 5-10% below Tony Blair in 1996/7.
    It's that the Conservatives have trashed their brand.

    If you look down the line of tory polling it is absolutely dire. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_next_United_Kingdom_general_election


    I've suggested before that I think in voting, hatred and anger are stronger motivators than love. The Labour - LibDem pincers together with the fall of the SNP mean that I am confident of a Labour majority.

    But the tories have to hope they can do nationally what they did in Uxbridge. It could be a very nasty campaign.
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,077
    edited July 2023
    p.s. assuredly before the clocks go back on Sunday 27th October 2024

    They need all the help they can get. People being downbeat at the onset of winter and dark nights isn't going to help.

    As I've mentioned, December 2019 was a one-off 'Get Brexit Done' election.
  • kamskikamski Posts: 5,042
    viewcode said:

    Peck said:

    The reason I am interested is because I am trying to express as succinctly as possible the rule for doubling the final letter of a regular verb when forming the past tense. Once we have dealt with verbs that end in -e, -y or single -s, the rule "double only when the penultimate letter, considered on its own, represents a stressed vowel" is tantalisingly close to being sufficient. But bouquet breaks it. Or at least it does if we suppose the e on its own represents the final vowel sound. The last letter must be pronounced if it is to be doubled.

    Is bouquet a verb?
    I think you can verb a noun :)
    Your "consonant mustn't be silent to be doubled" rule deals with bouquet, doesn't it?

    Usually the rule goes "words ending in single vowel and single consonant that either have only one syllable or the last syllable is stressed". You could deal with things like "quizzed" or "acquitted" by saying that the u following a q is treated as part of the consonant q (or a rule about the length of the vowel sound might work better).

    You might want to also deal with words ending in x, w (don't double) and, in British English, some words ending in l (travelled, modelled etc).

    Anyway there are always going to be exceptions. For example, formatted, or kidnapped.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 68,750
    Not to be alarmist...

    Not to be alarmist but…this is what’s called a six-sigma* event, now unfolding in Antarctica.

    Otherwise known as a once-in-7.5-million-year event.

    Hang onto your hats.

    https://twitter.com/think_or_swim/status/1683556231481286656

    One of the climate feedback loops just went off the chart.
    Antarctic sea ice extent in southern hemisphere summers is highly variable, but it always recovers in the winter. Thus year it hasn't.

    (*six sigma would be once in a billion years - actually five sigma.)
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 47,731
    Nigelb said:

    Not to be alarmist...

    Not to be alarmist but…this is what’s called a six-sigma* event, now unfolding in Antarctica.

    Otherwise known as a once-in-7.5-million-year event.

    Hang onto your hats.

    https://twitter.com/think_or_swim/status/1683556231481286656

    One of the climate feedback loops just went off the chart.
    Antarctic sea ice extent in southern hemisphere summers is highly variable, but it always recovers in the winter. Thus year it hasn't.

    (*six sigma would be once in a billion years - actually five sigma.)

    Sunak isn't timing his backtrack on Net Zero very well.

    Is he the most politically unlucky of them all?
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,649
    edited July 2023
    EDIT
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,206
    Nigelb said:

    Not to be alarmist...

    Not to be alarmist but…this is what’s called a six-sigma* event, now unfolding in Antarctica.

    Otherwise known as a once-in-7.5-million-year event.

    Hang onto your hats.

    https://twitter.com/think_or_swim/status/1683556231481286656

    One of the climate feedback loops just went off the chart.
    Antarctic sea ice extent in southern hemisphere summers is highly variable, but it always recovers in the winter. Thus year it hasn't.

    (*six sigma would be once in a billion years - actually five sigma.)

    The problem with alarmism is when everything is a crisis nothing is.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,649

    Nigelb said:

    Not to be alarmist...

    Not to be alarmist but…this is what’s called a six-sigma* event, now unfolding in Antarctica.

    Otherwise known as a once-in-7.5-million-year event.

    Hang onto your hats.

    https://twitter.com/think_or_swim/status/1683556231481286656

    One of the climate feedback loops just went off the chart.
    Antarctic sea ice extent in southern hemisphere summers is highly variable, but it always recovers in the winter. Thus year it hasn't.

    (*six sigma would be once in a billion years - actually five sigma.)

    The problem with alarmism is when everything is a crisis nothing is.
    Its the same crisis. Its slow-acting but the effects are starting to get more severe and in greater frequency.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 21,053

    Nigelb said:

    Not to be alarmist...

    Not to be alarmist but…this is what’s called a six-sigma* event, now unfolding in Antarctica.

    Otherwise known as a once-in-7.5-million-year event.

    Hang onto your hats.

    https://twitter.com/think_or_swim/status/1683556231481286656

    One of the climate feedback loops just went off the chart.
    Antarctic sea ice extent in southern hemisphere summers is highly variable, but it always recovers in the winter. Thus year it hasn't.

    (*six sigma would be once in a billion years - actually five sigma.)

    The problem with alarmism is when everything is a crisis nothing is.
    It's a fair point, but when one is faced with orbital photos of Australia on fire in 2020 and Mediterranean islands on fire in 2023, one does start wondering if this hug-a-penguin green crap might actually have a bit of a point.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 47,731

    Nigelb said:

    Not to be alarmist...

    Not to be alarmist but…this is what’s called a six-sigma* event, now unfolding in Antarctica.

    Otherwise known as a once-in-7.5-million-year event.

    Hang onto your hats.

    https://twitter.com/think_or_swim/status/1683556231481286656

    One of the climate feedback loops just went off the chart.
    Antarctic sea ice extent in southern hemisphere summers is highly variable, but it always recovers in the winter. Thus year it hasn't.

    (*six sigma would be once in a billion years - actually five sigma.)

    The problem with alarmism is when everything is a crisis nothing is.
    I am not sure what you mean. Do you think the "Climate Crisis" is not real?
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,206
    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    Not to be alarmist...

    Not to be alarmist but…this is what’s called a six-sigma* event, now unfolding in Antarctica.

    Otherwise known as a once-in-7.5-million-year event.

    Hang onto your hats.

    https://twitter.com/think_or_swim/status/1683556231481286656

    One of the climate feedback loops just went off the chart.
    Antarctic sea ice extent in southern hemisphere summers is highly variable, but it always recovers in the winter. Thus year it hasn't.

    (*six sigma would be once in a billion years - actually five sigma.)

    The problem with alarmism is when everything is a crisis nothing is.
    I am not sure what you mean. Do you think the "Climate Crisis" is not real?
    As I have said below I think the UK response to climate is wrong.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 68,750
    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    Not to be alarmist...

    Not to be alarmist but…this is what’s called a six-sigma* event, now unfolding in Antarctica.

    Otherwise known as a once-in-7.5-million-year event.

    Hang onto your hats.

    https://twitter.com/think_or_swim/status/1683556231481286656

    One of the climate feedback loops just went off the chart.
    Antarctic sea ice extent in southern hemisphere summers is highly variable, but it always recovers in the winter. Thus year it hasn't.

    (*six sigma would be once in a billion years - actually five sigma.)

    Sunak isn't timing his backtrack on Net Zero very well.

    Is he the most politically unlucky of them all?
    Just not very good.
    With a party that's a great deal worse.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,206
    viewcode said:

    Nigelb said:

    Not to be alarmist...

    Not to be alarmist but…this is what’s called a six-sigma* event, now unfolding in Antarctica.

    Otherwise known as a once-in-7.5-million-year event.

    Hang onto your hats.

    https://twitter.com/think_or_swim/status/1683556231481286656

    One of the climate feedback loops just went off the chart.
    Antarctic sea ice extent in southern hemisphere summers is highly variable, but it always recovers in the winter. Thus year it hasn't.

    (*six sigma would be once in a billion years - actually five sigma.)

    The problem with alarmism is when everything is a crisis nothing is.
    It's a fair point, but when one is faced with orbital photos of Australia on fire in 2020 and Mediterranean islands on fire in 2023, one does start wondering if this hug-a-penguin green crap might actually have a bit of a point.
    If the UK cut its carbon footprint to zero it would stop precisely nothing,
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 21,053

    Now back in Scotland after most of July in Spain. The surreal thing about British politics at the moment is both main parties trying to compete with each other about who can bin the most green policies. Whilst Europe burns.

    I expect it from the Tories. But from Labour? Starmer truly is frit. We could drive our economy investing in "green crap" as America is doing. But our polity has been poisoned by "who will pay for it" questions, as opposed to "how much will we benefit from it".

    The reason why this country is so absurdly expensive for shitty services is because we've been conditioned to believe that we can't afford stuff, because stuff is a cost and not an investment. Which is ow we spend record amounts on stuff despite seeing the front-line execution of said stuff being awful.

    The money is being stolen by the spiv class. They own the Tories, and Labour seem petrified of them as well.

    The British economic model is to make the poor work harder and harder and feed the profits upwards to wealthy people who don't like us and outward to foreign investors and funds who don't even care we exist. If this destroys us or the environment then that is not a problem for them: they can just move to another country or already do so.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,507
    No. He's not going early. Why would he when ever has a politician voted for their own demise when each week brings the potential for improvement. Yes and also deterioration but Sunak won't care if the Cons lose by 100 instead of 75.

    The last possible moment.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 59,139
    Nigelb said:

    Not to be alarmist...

    Not to be alarmist but…this is what’s called a six-sigma* event, now unfolding in Antarctica.

    Otherwise known as a once-in-7.5-million-year event.

    Hang onto your hats.

    https://twitter.com/think_or_swim/status/1683556231481286656

    One of the climate feedback loops just went off the chart.
    Antarctic sea ice extent in southern hemisphere summers is highly variable, but it always recovers in the winter. Thus year it hasn't.

    (*six sigma would be once in a billion years - actually five sigma.)

    Is Liz Truss on a cruise there?
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 21,053
    kamski said:

    viewcode said:

    Nigelb said:

    Not to be alarmist...

    Not to be alarmist but…this is what’s called a six-sigma* event, now unfolding in Antarctica.

    Otherwise known as a once-in-7.5-million-year event.

    Hang onto your hats.

    https://twitter.com/think_or_swim/status/1683556231481286656

    One of the climate feedback loops just went off the chart.
    Antarctic sea ice extent in southern hemisphere summers is highly variable, but it always recovers in the winter. Thus year it hasn't.

    (*six sigma would be once in a billion years - actually five sigma.)

    The problem with alarmism is when everything is a crisis nothing is.
    It's a fair point, but when one is faced with orbital photos of Australia on fire in 2020 and Mediterranean islands on fire in 2023, one does start wondering if this hug-a-penguin green crap might actually have a bit of a point.
    If the UK cut its carbon footprint to zero it would stop precisely nothing,
    That's why I always throw my litter in the street, what difference does it make when 99.9% of litter is dropped by other people?
    I'm stealing that analogy. Thank you.
  • GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,860

    viewcode said:

    Nigelb said:

    Not to be alarmist...

    Not to be alarmist but…this is what’s called a six-sigma* event, now unfolding in Antarctica.

    Otherwise known as a once-in-7.5-million-year event.

    Hang onto your hats.

    https://twitter.com/think_or_swim/status/1683556231481286656

    One of the climate feedback loops just went off the chart.
    Antarctic sea ice extent in southern hemisphere summers is highly variable, but it always recovers in the winter. Thus year it hasn't.

    (*six sigma would be once in a billion years - actually five sigma.)

    The problem with alarmism is when everything is a crisis nothing is.
    It's a fair point, but when one is faced with orbital photos of Australia on fire in 2020 and Mediterranean islands on fire in 2023, one does start wondering if this hug-a-penguin green crap might actually have a bit of a point.
    If the UK cut its carbon footprint to zero it would stop precisely nothing,
    The tragedy of the commons.

    Kind of anyway. Nobody else is doing anything, why should we?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 68,750
    .

    Nigelb said:

    Not to be alarmist...

    Not to be alarmist but…this is what’s called a six-sigma* event, now unfolding in Antarctica.

    Otherwise known as a once-in-7.5-million-year event.

    Hang onto your hats.

    https://twitter.com/think_or_swim/status/1683556231481286656

    One of the climate feedback loops just went off the chart.
    Antarctic sea ice extent in southern hemisphere summers is highly variable, but it always recovers in the winter. Thus year it hasn't.

    (*six sigma would be once in a billion years - actually five sigma.)

    The problem with alarmism is when everything is a crisis nothing is.
    Its the same crisis. Its slow-acting but the effects are starting to get more severe and in greater frequency.
    So what ? Nothing our government and environmentalists are suggesting will impact this.

    The top ten polluters account for 67% of the carbon produced globally. China India Iran and Indonesia are all developing economies and will shove out more carbon in the next decade than the UK. The UK isnt even a top 10 polluter but number 17 and moving down the rankings.

    Net zero is not an appropriate priority for us. We should be focussing policies of bio diversity, reducing plastics and liveability in a changed climate.
    That's what everyone says.

    Unless everyone starts to act, no one will.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,228
    viewcode said:

    Nigelb said:

    Not to be alarmist...

    Not to be alarmist but…this is what’s called a six-sigma* event, now unfolding in Antarctica.

    Otherwise known as a once-in-7.5-million-year event.

    Hang onto your hats.

    https://twitter.com/think_or_swim/status/1683556231481286656

    One of the climate feedback loops just went off the chart.
    Antarctic sea ice extent in southern hemisphere summers is highly variable, but it always recovers in the winter. Thus year it hasn't.

    (*six sigma would be once in a billion years - actually five sigma.)

    The problem with alarmism is when everything is a crisis nothing is.
    It's a fair point, but when one is faced with orbital photos of Australia on fire in 2020 and Mediterranean islands on fire in 2023, one does start wondering if this hug-a-penguin green crap might actually have a bit of a point.
    The Western US is setting all kinds of heat records right now.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,507
    As for climate alarmism there was a good prog with some prof saying how previous cataclysmic climate change/feedback loops had occurred at six degrees of warming and we were below two (and this latter, as @BartholomewRoberts rightly points out, from from 100-odd years ago).

    Hence if and when we start approaching six then we should worry but we don't seem to be there quite yet.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,228
    kamski said:

    viewcode said:

    Nigelb said:

    Not to be alarmist...

    Not to be alarmist but…this is what’s called a six-sigma* event, now unfolding in Antarctica.

    Otherwise known as a once-in-7.5-million-year event.

    Hang onto your hats.

    https://twitter.com/think_or_swim/status/1683556231481286656

    One of the climate feedback loops just went off the chart.
    Antarctic sea ice extent in southern hemisphere summers is highly variable, but it always recovers in the winter. Thus year it hasn't.

    (*six sigma would be once in a billion years - actually five sigma.)

    The problem with alarmism is when everything is a crisis nothing is.
    It's a fair point, but when one is faced with orbital photos of Australia on fire in 2020 and Mediterranean islands on fire in 2023, one does start wondering if this hug-a-penguin green crap might actually have a bit of a point.
    If the UK cut its carbon footprint to zero it would stop precisely nothing,
    That's why I always throw my litter in the street, what difference does it make when 99.9% of litter is dropped by other people?
    Me too!
  • GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,860
    Nigelb said:

    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    Not to be alarmist...

    Not to be alarmist but…this is what’s called a six-sigma* event, now unfolding in Antarctica.

    Otherwise known as a once-in-7.5-million-year event.

    Hang onto your hats.

    https://twitter.com/think_or_swim/status/1683556231481286656

    One of the climate feedback loops just went off the chart.
    Antarctic sea ice extent in southern hemisphere summers is highly variable, but it always recovers in the winter. Thus year it hasn't.

    (*six sigma would be once in a billion years - actually five sigma.)

    Sunak isn't timing his backtrack on Net Zero very well.

    Is he the most politically unlucky of them all?
    Just not very good.
    With a party that's a great deal worse.
    Agreed. He’s not unlucky - as Spaffer’s Chief Handouts Officer during covid he became quite popular; unusual for CotE.

    He is genuinely crap at politics and I suspect has quite a lacklustre team around him. He needs someone to bop him on the head hourly and shout ‘economy and cost of living’ in his ear.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,206
    kamski said:

    viewcode said:

    Nigelb said:

    Not to be alarmist...

    Not to be alarmist but…this is what’s called a six-sigma* event, now unfolding in Antarctica.

    Otherwise known as a once-in-7.5-million-year event.

    Hang onto your hats.

    https://twitter.com/think_or_swim/status/1683556231481286656

    One of the climate feedback loops just went off the chart.
    Antarctic sea ice extent in southern hemisphere summers is highly variable, but it always recovers in the winter. Thus year it hasn't.

    (*six sigma would be once in a billion years - actually five sigma.)

    The problem with alarmism is when everything is a crisis nothing is.
    It's a fair point, but when one is faced with orbital photos of Australia on fire in 2020 and Mediterranean islands on fire in 2023, one does start wondering if this hug-a-penguin green crap might actually have a bit of a point.
    If the UK cut its carbon footprint to zero it would stop precisely nothing,
    That's why I always throw my litter in the street, what difference does it make when 99.9% of litter is dropped by other people?
    LOL

    thats why we burn all that lignite in our coal fired power stations and have 7 of Europes top ten polluters on our land

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47783992

    Weve picked up our litter it would be nice if you Germans could do the same given you produce twice as much carbon as we do.

    Deutschland - Spitzenverschmutzer

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 68,750
    edited July 2023

    viewcode said:

    Nigelb said:

    Not to be alarmist...

    Not to be alarmist but…this is what’s called a six-sigma* event, now unfolding in Antarctica.

    Otherwise known as a once-in-7.5-million-year event.

    Hang onto your hats.

    https://twitter.com/think_or_swim/status/1683556231481286656

    One of the climate feedback loops just went off the chart.
    Antarctic sea ice extent in southern hemisphere summers is highly variable, but it always recovers in the winter. Thus year it hasn't.

    (*six sigma would be once in a billion years - actually five sigma.)

    The problem with alarmism is when everything is a crisis nothing is.
    It's a fair point, but when one is faced with orbital photos of Australia on fire in 2020 and Mediterranean islands on fire in 2023, one does start wondering if this hug-a-penguin green crap might actually have a bit of a point.
    If the UK cut its carbon footprint to zero it would stop precisely nothing,
    It would stop quite a lot of oil and gas imports.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 4,766

    Now back in Scotland after most of July in Spain. The surreal thing about British politics at the moment is both main parties trying to compete with each other about who can bin the most green policies. Whilst Europe burns.

    I expect it from the Tories. But from Labour? Starmer truly is frit. We could drive our economy investing in "green crap" as America is doing. But our polity has been poisoned by "who will pay for it" questions, as opposed to "how much will we benefit from it".

    America is driving its economy by spending money like a drunken sailor, racking up huge budget deficits for decades to come. Its debt is already passing Italy's on some measures. We couldn't do so even if we wanted to - the financial markets wouldn't let us. It's not even that effective - America is likely to be in recession later this year, much of the good investment would have happened anyway, and like all huge government programmes you'll see epic fraud and waste. That really will enrich the spiv class.

    The reason why this country is so absurdly expensive for shitty services is because we've been conditioned to believe that we can't afford stuff, because stuff is a cost and not an investment. Which is ow we spend record amounts on stuff despite seeing the front-line execution of said stuff being awful.

    The money is being stolen by the spiv class. They own the Tories, and Labour seem petrified of them as well.

    No, the reason taxes are so high for poor services is epic public sector waste - spineless, lazy and incompetent managers and demotivated, unionised employees. They own Labour, and the Tories seem petrified of them as well.
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