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The Tories hang on in Hillingdon in massive blow to LAB – politicalbetting.com

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  • londonpubmanlondonpubman Posts: 3,640

    Sean_F said:

    I want to express my thanks to HYUFD for his canvassing report.

    It prompted me to put £50 on the Conservatives to hold Uxbridge, at 9-1.

    Quite.

    Maybe people should listen to @HYUFD more rather than just take the piss out of him?

    He does way more for the party than I do.
    Even a stopped clock occasionally tells the right time.
    Why can't you be magnanimous for once

    @HYUFD emerged from last night with considerable credit and I am someone who is his regular critic
    @HYUFD does indeed come out of this very well.

    In general HYUFD makes a considerable contribution to this site. He is very knowledgeable on politics. He argues his case strongly and consistently and without getting aggressive even against often aggressive opponents.

    👍
    Sometimes he shows a great sense of humour too.
    You have to have a sense of humour to be a CON supporter nowadays!
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,516
    edited July 2023

    Sean_F said:

    FWIW, the average swing from Con to Lab across the three was 13.5%, and the average from Con to Lib Dem was 13%.

    Suggests a very heavy defeat but not a wipeout.
    I think the swings at the next election will be so all over the shop that uniform swing will be pretty much useless. Hard to predict…
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 22,415
    edited July 2023

    MattW said:

    Good morning

    Congratulations to @HYUFD who said the conservatives would hold Uxbridge

    Also a lot of humble pie is needed by all those who dismissed ULEZ as an issue

    In the wider context the war against the car is not labour's friend

    I'm still not convinced by ULEZ as an issue in London - in a few outer seats, maybe, and imo not in the mayoral election.

    However it remains that around 90% of vehicles are *already* compliant, so the number of voters actually affected will be very small. Not sure how it will play electorally - we'll see. I don't see it saving Tory bacon - the outraged gammon vote in Outer London is not imo dominant enough.

    Perhaps it's more interesting in the other cities which are introducing Low Emission Zones across the country. Those places where there has not been investment in public transport are perhaps exposed, though there's not a clear correlation.

    This is a 2021 graphic, so it may have changed a little.

    I think it is the first evidence that the war on cars may not play into labour's hands

    It certainly played a part in Uxbridge and already we see calls to move the 2030 deadline for all new cars to be EV and here in Wales we have Drakeford cancelling all new road building, including the 3rd Menai crossing notwithstanding Holyhead is to become a free port, and the ideological change of all 30mph zones in Wales to 20mph by default

    It will be interesting how this plays out over the next 15 months

    Remember what happens when labour ignore WVM
    Isn't that a teeny weeny bit depressing, though?

    After all, most of those measures are about reducing the harms that cars do. ULEZ attempts to deal with some specific localised air pollution. Reducing speed limits makes accidents less likely and less harmful. That sort of thing. Tilting the balance between the benefits drivers get from driving and the costs that society pays.

    One lesson of Uxbridge is that, at least in some seats, that's politically unacceptable. And whilst there's something in the "wrong moment" argument, the experience is that car restraint measures are rarely popular in advance. And there are plenty of other measures that any government is going to have to take in the next few years.

    Are will still so pampered as a nation that we're going to spit out any nasty medicine?
    Reducing speed limits is inconveniencing and foolhardy. 30mph away from residential/school zones is a reasonably safe, balanced speed limit.

    Cutting to 20 in residential streets where children play on the road, or in actual school zones, may make sense but as a general rule of thumb everywhere? No, absolutely not.

    And as for cancelling all road building? No, eliminating transportation is not a good idea in any circumstances - and its harmful for public transportation too, considering the #1 form of public transportation in most of the country is not trains or trams, its buses. And what do buses drive upon?
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,277
    A crumb of comfort for the Tories in Uxbridge . The tactical voting though should really concern them and could add to their loses at the next GE .
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,657

    Meanwhile Sir John Curtice tells Nick Robinson that the overnight results show the Tories are a long way behind, declining their vote by a greater margin than the opinion polls show...

    https://twitter.com/BBCr4today/status/1682272534551461888?t=peCMFE5rExTfyHOg6gI_qA&s=19

    Nobody can deny that it was a poor night but Uxbridge was unexpected, despite @HYUFD predictions, and for Sunak it must be a relief as he goes into recess

    We are still 15 months away from a GE and events happen, including what happens in Scotland to the SNP
    I think many of us have vat-sized popcorn buckets awaiting eating as we await nippie news on that latter point.

    You have to accept though that it is going to take something extraordinary to turn this around for the Tories. Everything is possible in politics! It's just increasingly unlikely...
    Indeed and I do not think that is disputed

    The only question seems whether Starmer can achieve a working majority
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,772

    Sean_F said:

    FWIW, the average swing from Con to Lab across the three was 13.5%, and the average from Con to Lib Dem was 13%.

    Suggests a very heavy defeat but not a wipeout.
    I think the swings at the next election will be so all over the shop that uniform swing will be pretty much useless. Hard to predict…
    I think my takeaway is it's impossible to see how the Conservatives can attract enough voters to be the largest party, but it's clear Starmer is struggling to win enough votes in the right places to be confident of winning even a small majority.

    But - as I've always thought that confirmation bias applies.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,972
    HYUFD said:

    So Labour win Selby, the LDs won Somerton but the Tories hold Uxbridge. Who could possibly have predicted that result? Oh yes, me!

    You did, and credit where it's due.

    Did you see that John Curtice clip? Whilst you called this right, you called your party doing *worse* than the opinion polls show.

    Curtice made another interesting point. Your win in Uxbridge was essentially an opposition campaign. As the party in government, what other issues can you oppose...?
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,657
    HYUFD said:

    So Labour win Selby, the LDs won Somerton but the Tories hold Uxbridge. Who could possibly have predicted that result? Oh yes, me!

    Good morning @HYUFD

    Many congratulations on being feted on here this morning

    Very well done
  • Congratulations to HYUFD for calling it right. Credit where its due, and I hope people followed him on his betting tips - I did not, I thought he was hopecasting and I was wrong and he was right. Well done. 👍
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,772
    edited July 2023

    HYUFD said:

    So Labour win Selby, the LDs won Somerton but the Tories hold Uxbridge. Who could possibly have predicted that result? Oh yes, me!

    You did, and credit where it's due.

    Did you see that John Curtice clip? Whilst you called this right, you called your party doing *worse* than the opinion polls show.

    Curtice made another interesting point. Your win in Uxbridge was essentially an opposition campaign. As the party in government, what other issues can you oppose...?
    Small boats.

    Oh, sorry, is that not what you meant?
  • kamskikamski Posts: 5,208

    MattW said:

    Good morning

    Congratulations to @HYUFD who said the conservatives would hold Uxbridge

    Also a lot of humble pie is needed by all those who dismissed ULEZ as an issue

    In the wider context the war against the car is not labour's friend

    I'm still not convinced by ULEZ as an issue in London - in a few outer seats, maybe, and imo not in the mayoral election.

    However it remains that around 90% of vehicles are *already* compliant, so the number of voters actually affected will be very small. Not sure how it will play electorally - we'll see. I don't see it saving Tory bacon - the outraged gammon vote in Outer London is not imo dominant enough.

    Perhaps it's more interesting in the other cities which are introducing Low Emission Zones across the country. Those places where there has not been investment in public transport are perhaps exposed, though there's not a clear correlation.

    This is a 2021 graphic, so it may have changed a little.

    I think it is the first evidence that the war on cars may not play into labour's hands

    It certainly played a part in Uxbridge and already we see calls to move the 2030 deadline for all new cars to be EV and here in Wales we have Drakeford cancelling all new road building, including the 3rd Menai crossing notwithstanding Holyhead is to become a free port, and the ideological change of all 30mph zones in Wales to 20mph by default

    It will be interesting how this plays out over the next 15 months

    Remember what happens when labour ignore WVM
    An urban speed limit of 20 mph in Wales is a lot like ULEZ expansion. It isn't the principle that is wrong, it is the speed and lack of thought in which it is being implemented.

    Transport policy is a disaster nationally. There are too many cars, not enough infrastructure (including alternative transport). Driving anywhere is horrendous, particularly in cities. Now that the current Government in Westminster have learned anti - green, anti- safety issues win votes, it is a situation that will undoubtedly get worse.
    This is the BS.

    Driving anywhere, except a tiny minority of the country in inner cities, is pleasant and convenient. Not horrendous.

    Driving is the most freeing, the most liberating, the most self-controlled means of transportation people have in the modern, developed world.

    Relying upon others, on 'public transportation' is a farce and a pathetic joke outside of a tiny number of metropolises, and it always will be.

    There is absolutely nothing wrong with private transportation. Either environmentally, once we switch to clean technologies, or progressively, or for a matter of convenience.
    Personally, I find driving a car is shit everywhere. A bicycle is way more enjoyable.

    Nothing wrong environmentally if we pretend hard enough.

    I know you like to be the king of wishful thinking, but isn't this a bit much eve for you?
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,914

    MattW said:

    Good morning

    Congratulations to @HYUFD who said the conservatives would hold Uxbridge

    Also a lot of humble pie is needed by all those who dismissed ULEZ as an issue

    In the wider context the war against the car is not labour's friend

    I'm still not convinced by ULEZ as an issue in London - in a few outer seats, maybe, and imo not in the mayoral election.

    However it remains that around 90% of vehicles are *already* compliant, so the number of voters actually affected will be very small. Not sure how it will play electorally - we'll see. I don't see it saving Tory bacon - the outraged gammon vote in Outer London is not imo dominant enough.

    Perhaps it's more interesting in the other cities which are introducing Low Emission Zones across the country. Those places where there has not been investment in public transport are perhaps exposed, though there's not a clear correlation.

    This is a 2021 graphic, so it may have changed a little.

    I think it is the first evidence that the war on cars may not play into labour's hands

    It certainly played a part in Uxbridge and already we see calls to move the 2030 deadline for all new cars to be EV and here in Wales we have Drakeford cancelling all new road building, including the 3rd Menai crossing notwithstanding Holyhead is to become a free port, and the ideological change of all 30mph zones in Wales to 20mph by default

    It will be interesting how this plays out over the next 15 months

    Remember what happens when labour ignore WVM
    An urban speed limit of 20 mph in Wales is a lot like ULEZ expansion. It isn't the principle that is wrong, it is the speed and lack of thought in which it is being implemented.

    Transport policy is a disaster nationally. There are too many cars, not enough infrastructure (including alternative transport). Driving anywhere is horrendous, particularly in cities. Now that the current Government in Westminster have learned anti - green, anti- safety issues win votes, it is a situation that will undoubtedly get worse.
    This is the BS.

    Driving anywhere, except a tiny minority of the country in inner cities, is pleasant and convenient. Not horrendous.

    Driving is the most freeing, the most liberating, the most self-controlled means of transportation people have in the modern, developed world.

    Relying upon others, on 'public transportation' is a farce and a pathetic joke outside of a tiny number of metropolises, and it always will be.

    There is absolutely nothing wrong with private transportation. Either environmentally, once we switch to clean technologies, or progressively, or for a matter of convenience.
    You are talking s***e as usual.

    As someone who does 30,000 miles a year I take no s*** from a Sunday driver. I can tell you my worst blackspots. M42 around Solihull. M6 Junction 9 to the M54, the entire M25., the Brynglas Tunnel. I wouldn't dream of driving in central London anymore, Birmingham, an hour from Bristol Street to the M5. I could go on all day. If one needs to make an appointment one cannot rely on the motorcar, and use a smart motorway and if there has been an accident one can be, one, two, three hours late.

    It is not the golden age of motoring, that is long gone.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,972

    Meanwhile Sir John Curtice tells Nick Robinson that the overnight results show the Tories are a long way behind, declining their vote by a greater margin than the opinion polls show...

    https://twitter.com/BBCr4today/status/1682272534551461888?t=peCMFE5rExTfyHOg6gI_qA&s=19

    Nobody can deny that it was a poor night but Uxbridge was unexpected, despite @HYUFD predictions, and for Sunak it must be a relief as he goes into recess

    We are still 15 months away from a GE and events happen, including what happens in Scotland to the SNP
    I think many of us have vat-sized popcorn buckets awaiting eating as we await nippie news on that latter point.

    You have to accept though that it is going to take something extraordinary to turn this around for the Tories. Everything is possible in politics! It's just increasingly unlikely...
    Indeed and I do not think that is disputed

    The only question seems whether Starmer can achieve a working majority
    I think he will and quite comfortably. The tide has swept so hard against the Tories that it's difficult to see how they can turn that tide to start flowing in their direction. They under-performed even their dire polling in these 3 by-elections.

    What continues to be missing from Labour is what they are for. If Starmer is sensible he will flesh out his 5 missions - give a sense of purpose about what his government stands for. Then again, many of the people who persuaded Ed that the Ed Stone was a good idea are still around...
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 22,415
    edited July 2023

    HYUFD said:

    So Labour win Selby, the LDs won Somerton but the Tories hold Uxbridge. Who could possibly have predicted that result? Oh yes, me!

    You did, and credit where it's due.

    Did you see that John Curtice clip? Whilst you called this right, you called your party doing *worse* than the opinion polls show.

    Curtice made another interesting point. Your win in Uxbridge was essentially an opposition campaign. As the party in government, what other issues can you oppose...?
    The Government can oppose the Opposition who will be seeking to become the next Government at the election.

    Make it a referendum on "do you want them" rather than "do you still want us".

    Hardly an original concept, and pretty much why swingback exists.

    The danger for Labour is their support may currently be a mile wide, but an inch deep.
  • sbjme19sbjme19 Posts: 194
    John Curtice made the point that the Tory in Uxbridge in his speech referred only to Ulez. He didn't credit his Government for his win at all.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,976

    Congratulations to HYUFD for calling it right. Credit where its due, and I hope people followed him on his betting tips - I did not, I thought he was hopecasting and I was wrong and he was right. Well done. 👍

    Indeed.

    On Monday I was told by somebody who I trust that Labour were more confident on winning Selby than Uxbridge, I had my doubts, but still stuck some on the Tories to win at circa 9/1.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,161
    Let’s also not deny Nick Palmer credit for his 342 votes….
  • TimSTimS Posts: 13,215
    edited July 2023

    Meanwhile Sir John Curtice tells Nick Robinson that the overnight results show the Tories are a long way behind, declining their vote by a greater margin than the opinion polls show...

    https://twitter.com/BBCr4today/status/1682272534551461888?t=peCMFE5rExTfyHOg6gI_qA&s=19

    Nobody can deny that it was a poor night but Uxbridge was unexpected, despite @HYUFD predictions, and for Sunak it must be a relief as he goes into recess

    We are still 15 months away from a GE and events happen, including what happens in Scotland to the SNP
    Hopefully Uxbridge will encourage Tory complacency. Brunel university being out of term will have helped them too.

    What was the swing in Uxbridge? 6.7% from 2019. So if you apply that as UNS on electoral calculus on the new boundaries that gives you Lab largest party and 15 short of a majority. That’s without any SNP losses and no tactical voting.

    So a Labour majority is quite possible even with Uxbridge-style swing.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,475
    Credit to @HYUFD here. He can be irritating at times but he called this one
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,516
    edited July 2023

    HYUFD said:

    So Labour win Selby, the LDs won Somerton but the Tories hold Uxbridge. Who could possibly have predicted that result? Oh yes, me!

    You did, and credit where it's due.

    Did you see that John Curtice clip? Whilst you called this right, you called your party doing *worse* than the opinion polls show.

    Curtice made another interesting point. Your win in Uxbridge was essentially an opposition campaign. As the party in government, what other issues can you oppose...?
    Well it’s pretty simply really. If you believe the polls then if Labour isn’t as strong in Uxbridge then they will consequently be stronger elsewhere. I doubt that will be in the rest of Greater London and other major cities (relative to the last election) due to the “Keir is a tory” effect.

    So where is the strength? Everywhere else. Unless the polls are wrong.

    Labour vote very efficient I think.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,915
    One observation I have made is that in Selby and Somerton, Labour and the Lib Dems were able to increase the absolute number of votes they received compared to the general election, but in Uxbridge Labour weren't able even to turn out the voters who had voted for them in 2019.

    There's a couple of explanations you can offer for this.

    The more pro-Labour argument is that Uxbridge is different because so much of the Labour vote in 2019 was motivated as an anti-Boris Johnson vote, and so the baseline was artificially high.

    The more pro-Tory argument is that if they can find the right issue to hammer home for each constituency or voter, then they can convince voters to vote on fear of Labour policy, rather than on anger at Tory failure.

    Also, Khan appears to be a liability for Labour and they should find a replacement, otherwise the Tories have a decent chance of winning the Mayoral election once Labour are in government in Westminster.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,161

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    I do wonder why the odds were so mispriced on Uxbridge. The local election results were dire in most of London in 2022 - but not in Uxbridge.

    I suspect we expected long- Johnson to drag Labour over the line. HYUFD has been inspiring this week. If anyone took his advice and bet accordingly they owe him a drink.
    I'd be entirely happy to make a donation to a charity of his choice, if he wishes.
    The Boris Johnson Preservation Society?
    Just send the cash directly to the taxidermist, cut out the middle men….?
  • MattW said:

    Good morning

    Congratulations to @HYUFD who said the conservatives would hold Uxbridge

    Also a lot of humble pie is needed by all those who dismissed ULEZ as an issue

    In the wider context the war against the car is not labour's friend

    I'm still not convinced by ULEZ as an issue in London - in a few outer seats, maybe, and imo not in the mayoral election.

    However it remains that around 90% of vehicles are *already* compliant, so the number of voters actually affected will be very small. Not sure how it will play electorally - we'll see. I don't see it saving Tory bacon - the outraged gammon vote in Outer London is not imo dominant enough.

    Perhaps it's more interesting in the other cities which are introducing Low Emission Zones across the country. Those places where there has not been investment in public transport are perhaps exposed, though there's not a clear correlation.

    This is a 2021 graphic, so it may have changed a little.

    I think it is the first evidence that the war on cars may not play into labour's hands

    It certainly played a part in Uxbridge and already we see calls to move the 2030 deadline for all new cars to be EV and here in Wales we have Drakeford cancelling all new road building, including the 3rd Menai crossing notwithstanding Holyhead is to become a free port, and the ideological change of all 30mph zones in Wales to 20mph by default

    It will be interesting how this plays out over the next 15 months

    Remember what happens when labour ignore WVM
    An urban speed limit of 20 mph in Wales is a lot like ULEZ expansion. It isn't the principle that is wrong, it is the speed and lack of thought in which it is being implemented.

    Transport policy is a disaster nationally. There are too many cars, not enough infrastructure (including alternative transport). Driving anywhere is horrendous, particularly in cities. Now that the current Government in Westminster have learned anti - green, anti- safety issues win votes, it is a situation that will undoubtedly get worse.
    This is the BS.

    Driving anywhere, except a tiny minority of the country in inner cities, is pleasant and convenient. Not horrendous.

    Driving is the most freeing, the most liberating, the most self-controlled means of transportation people have in the modern, developed world.

    Relying upon others, on 'public transportation' is a farce and a pathetic joke outside of a tiny number of metropolises, and it always will be.

    There is absolutely nothing wrong with private transportation. Either environmentally, once we switch to clean technologies, or progressively, or for a matter of convenience.
    You are talking s***e as usual.

    As someone who does 30,000 miles a year I take no s*** from a Sunday driver. I can tell you my worst blackspots. M42 around Solihull. M6 Junction 9 to the M54, the entire M25., the Brynglas Tunnel. I wouldn't dream of driving in central London anymore, Birmingham, an hour from Bristol Street to the M5. I could go on all day. If one needs to make an appointment one cannot rely on the motorcar, and use a smart motorway and if there has been an accident one can be, one, two, three hours late.

    It is not the golden age of motoring, that is long gone.
    You make my point for me. There's a reason you drive 30k miles a year, its because driving works, and nothing else does.

    If one needs to make an appointment, the only thing one can rely upon is the motorcar, in almost the entire country.

    Yes traffic may be shit in a few places. Shit happens. I can tell you absolutely eg if there's an accident on the M6, or the M56, or the M62 it can lead to sudden gridlock in towns used as a ratrun to avoid the motorway traffic, or worse a motorway closure.

    But despite that, its still by far the best option.

    The private motorcar, is in almost all circumstances, like democracy. Its the worst option available - except for all other options that have yet been tried.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,972

    HYUFD said:

    So Labour win Selby, the LDs won Somerton but the Tories hold Uxbridge. Who could possibly have predicted that result? Oh yes, me!

    You did, and credit where it's due.

    Did you see that John Curtice clip? Whilst you called this right, you called your party doing *worse* than the opinion polls show.

    Curtice made another interesting point. Your win in Uxbridge was essentially an opposition campaign. As the party in government, what other issues can you oppose...?
    The Government can oppose the Opposition who will be seeking to become the next Government at the election.

    Make it a referendum on "do you want them" rather than "do you still want us".

    Hardly an original concept, and pretty much why swingback exists.

    The danger for Labour is their support may currently be a mile wide, but an inch deep.
    That strategy will hold then 20 of the seats they most need to defend. But ensure they get crushed in the rest. Let's use ULEZ as the example. If Sue Trump now thinks 'lets scrap ULEZ' she will do well in a handful of outer boroughs and get demolished everywhere else.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,772
    IanB2 said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    I do wonder why the odds were so mispriced on Uxbridge. The local election results were dire in most of London in 2022 - but not in Uxbridge.

    I suspect we expected long- Johnson to drag Labour over the line. HYUFD has been inspiring this week. If anyone took his advice and bet accordingly they owe him a drink.
    I'd be entirely happy to make a donation to a charity of his choice, if he wishes.
    The Boris Johnson Preservation Society?
    Just send the cash directly to the taxidermist, cut out the middle men….?
    Too late, he's already completely stuffed.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,161

    Heathener said:

    Heathener said:

    Sean_F said:

    I want to express my thanks to HYUFD for his canvassing report.

    It prompted me to put £50 on the Conservatives to hold Uxbridge, at 9-1.

    Great bet!

    My brother who is left-leaning lives in Kingston and he is MEGA pissed off with Sadiq Khan over Ulez. He has, indeed, just had to change his car.

    I'm afraid this is what always happens with socialism ...
    Was it socialism when Boris dreamt up the ulez?
    It's more the way in which socialist regimes have a tendency to impose what they think is best on other people. Hard Left are just as bad as Hard Right. Possibly worse. Although not a socialist, there were elements of this 'we know best for you little people' attitude on display in Tony Blair's Metropolitan elitism.

    As you may know, I'm more of an anarchist. Anti-state. Anti-authority.

    Then, maybe the more radical wing of the Liberal Democrats is a better fit for you?
    She’ll surely be voting tactically for them, in her seat, in any case.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Paul Mason’s take:

    I campaigned in Uxbridge and here's why I think Labour failed to win. 1/ ULEZ - it's a community entirely based around the car and the Tories made it a single issue campaign .... but Labour failed to deal with it coherently from the start...

    https://twitter.com/paulmasonnews/status/1682229544982282240

    Out of touch high handedness also played a significant part in the Brighton Greens eviction from council office.

  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,937

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    I do wonder why the odds were so mispriced on Uxbridge. The local election results were dire in most of London in 2022 - but not in Uxbridge.

    I suspect we expected long- Johnson to drag Labour over the line. HYUFD has been inspiring this week. If anyone took his advice and bet accordingly they owe him a drink.
    I'd be entirely happy to make a donation to a charity of his choice, if he wishes.
    The Boris Johnson Preservation Society?
    If he's turned into an encapsulated waxwork in Madam Tussauds Chamber of Horrors, I would hvae no objection :wink: .
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,657
    kamski said:

    MattW said:

    Good morning

    Congratulations to @HYUFD who said the conservatives would hold Uxbridge

    Also a lot of humble pie is needed by all those who dismissed ULEZ as an issue

    In the wider context the war against the car is not labour's friend

    I'm still not convinced by ULEZ as an issue in London - in a few outer seats, maybe, and imo not in the mayoral election.

    However it remains that around 90% of vehicles are *already* compliant, so the number of voters actually affected will be very small. Not sure how it will play electorally - we'll see. I don't see it saving Tory bacon - the outraged gammon vote in Outer London is not imo dominant enough.

    Perhaps it's more interesting in the other cities which are introducing Low Emission Zones across the country. Those places where there has not been investment in public transport are perhaps exposed, though there's not a clear correlation.

    This is a 2021 graphic, so it may have changed a little.

    I think it is the first evidence that the war on cars may not play into labour's hands

    It certainly played a part in Uxbridge and already we see calls to move the 2030 deadline for all new cars to be EV and here in Wales we have Drakeford cancelling all new road building, including the 3rd Menai crossing notwithstanding Holyhead is to become a free port, and the ideological change of all 30mph zones in Wales to 20mph by default

    It will be interesting how this plays out over the next 15 months

    Remember what happens when labour ignore WVM
    An urban speed limit of 20 mph in Wales is a lot like ULEZ expansion. It isn't the principle that is wrong, it is the speed and lack of thought in which it is being implemented.

    Transport policy is a disaster nationally. There are too many cars, not enough infrastructure (including alternative transport). Driving anywhere is horrendous, particularly in cities. Now that the current Government in Westminster have learned anti - green, anti- safety issues win votes, it is a situation that will undoubtedly get worse.
    This is the BS.

    Driving anywhere, except a tiny minority of the country in inner cities, is pleasant and convenient. Not horrendous.

    Driving is the most freeing, the most liberating, the most self-controlled means of transportation people have in the modern, developed world.

    Relying upon others, on 'public transportation' is a farce and a pathetic joke outside of a tiny number of metropolises, and it always will be.

    There is absolutely nothing wrong with private transportation. Either environmentally, once we switch to clean technologies, or progressively, or for a matter of convenience.
    Personally, I find driving a car is shit everywhere. A bicycle is way more enjoyable.

    Nothing wrong environmentally if we pretend hard enough.

    I know you like to be the king of wishful thinking, but isn't this a bit much eve for you?
    For you, but many of us cannot ride a bicycle due to our age and the car is our only means of independence

    I understand why those living in cities, and especially London with its excellent transport facilities, think your way but the vast majority of us do not live in cities
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,976
    edited July 2023
    If the Tories hadn't selected such a loonbag, they could beat Khan next May.
  • GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,860
    nico679 said:

    A crumb of comfort for the Tories in Uxbridge . The tactical voting though should really concern them and could add to their loses at the next GE .

    There is nothing they can take from Uxbridge for a national campaign though, beyond capitalising on local issues which any sensible candidate will do anyway.

    Turnout sub-50% in all three fwiw.
  • londonpubmanlondonpubman Posts: 3,640

    All three by elections were about the cost of living.

    Correct. This remains the Number 1 issue for people. Despite one month of moderately encouraging CPI data it is still 4 times the target. Inflation erodes and ultimately destroys people's earnings, pensions and wealth.

    Not sure LAB have any answers though.
  • HYUFD said:

    So Labour win Selby, the LDs won Somerton but the Tories hold Uxbridge. Who could possibly have predicted that result? Oh yes, me!

    You did, and credit where it's due.

    Did you see that John Curtice clip? Whilst you called this right, you called your party doing *worse* than the opinion polls show.

    Curtice made another interesting point. Your win in Uxbridge was essentially an opposition campaign. As the party in government, what other issues can you oppose...?
    The Government can oppose the Opposition who will be seeking to become the next Government at the election.

    Make it a referendum on "do you want them" rather than "do you still want us".

    Hardly an original concept, and pretty much why swingback exists.

    The danger for Labour is their support may currently be a mile wide, but an inch deep.
    That strategy will hold then 20 of the seats they most need to defend. But ensure they get crushed in the rest. Let's use ULEZ as the example. If Sue Trump now thinks 'lets scrap ULEZ' she will do well in a handful of outer boroughs and get demolished everywhere else.
    To mangle Ronald Reagan - 20 seats here, 20 seats there - soon you're talking real politics.

    You don't need to make it about ULEZ nationwide. There will be issues that the public doesn't want the Opposition to do if elected and make it a referendum on that, on different issues in different seats, targeting the demographics, and it can work.

    I don't think it will, because I think the public have had enough of the Government and I don't think this Government is confident or competent enough to win. But I didn't think they'd hold onto Uxbridge, so I might be wrong here too - its certainly not outwith the realms of possibility.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,161

    MattW said:

    Good morning

    Congratulations to @HYUFD who said the conservatives would hold Uxbridge

    Also a lot of humble pie is needed by all those who dismissed ULEZ as an issue

    In the wider context the war against the car is not labour's friend

    I'm still not convinced by ULEZ as an issue in London - in a few outer seats, maybe, and imo not in the mayoral election.

    However it remains that around 90% of vehicles are *already* compliant, so the number of voters actually affected will be very small. Not sure how it will play electorally - we'll see. I don't see it saving Tory bacon - the outraged gammon vote in Outer London is not imo dominant enough.

    Perhaps it's more interesting in the other cities which are introducing Low Emission Zones across the country. Those places where there has not been investment in public transport are perhaps exposed, though there's not a clear correlation.

    This is a 2021 graphic, so it may have changed a little.

    I think it is the first evidence that the war on cars may not play into labour's hands

    It certainly played a part in Uxbridge and already we see calls to move the 2030 deadline for all new cars to be EV and here in Wales we have Drakeford cancelling all new road building, including the 3rd Menai crossing notwithstanding Holyhead is to become a free port, and the ideological change of all 30mph zones in Wales to 20mph by default

    It will be interesting how this plays out over the next 15 months

    Remember what happens when labour ignore WVM
    An urban speed limit of 20 mph in Wales is a lot like ULEZ expansion. It isn't the principle that is wrong, it is the speed and lack of thought in which it is being implemented.

    Transport policy is a disaster nationally. There are too many cars, not enough infrastructure (including alternative transport). Driving anywhere is horrendous, particularly in cities. Now that the current Government in Westminster have learned anti - green, anti- safety issues win votes, it is a situation that will undoubtedly get worse.
    This is the BS.

    Driving anywhere, except a tiny minority of the country in inner cities, is pleasant and convenient. Not horrendous.

    Driving is the most freeing, the most liberating, the most self-controlled means of transportation people have in the modern, developed world.

    Relying upon others, on 'public transportation' is a farce and a pathetic joke outside of a tiny number of metropolises, and it always will be.

    There is absolutely nothing wrong with private transportation. Either environmentally, once we switch to clean technologies, or progressively, or for a matter of convenience.
    You are talking s***e as usual.

    As someone who does 30,000 miles a year I take no s*** from a Sunday driver. I can tell you my worst blackspots. M42 around Solihull. M6 Junction 9 to the M54, the entire M25., the Brynglas Tunnel. I wouldn't dream of driving in central London anymore, Birmingham, an hour from Bristol Street to the M5. I could go on all day. If one needs to make an appointment one cannot rely on the motorcar, and use a smart motorway and if there has been an accident one can be, one, two, three hours late.

    It is not the golden age of motoring, that is long gone.
    It’s not too bad on the island, although you do get a bit of a queue sometimes at the roundabout at the end of our only bit of dual carriageway.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,477
    By elections confirming trends we've seen in local elections.
    Tory vote holding up in urban areas.
    Cratering in rural.
    Suggests not much UNS and the possibility of some tasty constituency odds.
    A (very) narrow pathway to Tories largest Party. Hold most urban seats on small swings. Hold most rural seats on much larger ones.
  • RattersRatters Posts: 1,111
    FF43 said:

    All three results were remarkable. Somerton and Selby for the size of the swing; Uxbridge for the smallness of it.

    I think it's an interesting point - with such a large national average swing (based on the polls) we should expect large deviations in the size of swing.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,657
    TimS said:

    Meanwhile Sir John Curtice tells Nick Robinson that the overnight results show the Tories are a long way behind, declining their vote by a greater margin than the opinion polls show...

    https://twitter.com/BBCr4today/status/1682272534551461888?t=peCMFE5rExTfyHOg6gI_qA&s=19

    Nobody can deny that it was a poor night but Uxbridge was unexpected, despite @HYUFD predictions, and for Sunak it must be a relief as he goes into recess

    We are still 15 months away from a GE and events happen, including what happens in Scotland to the SNP
    Hopefully Uxbridge will encourage Tory complacency. Brunel university being out of term will have helped them too.

    What was the swing in Uxbridge? 6.7% from 2019. So if you apply that as UNS on electoral calculus on the new boundaries that gives you Lab largest party and 15 short of a majority. That’s without any SNP losses and no tactical voting.

    So a Labour majority is quite possible even with Uxbridge-style swing.
    If anyone is in danger of complacency it is labour, I cannot imagine any conservative is
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,161
    edited July 2023
    The Norwegian tabloids are eschewing the political earthquake breaking in the UK and running with a story about teenagers who sweat too much….
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,468

    HYUFD said:

    So Labour win Selby, the LDs won Somerton but the Tories hold Uxbridge. Who could possibly have predicted that result? Oh yes, me!

    You did, and credit where it's due.

    Did you see that John Curtice clip? Whilst you called this right, you called your party doing *worse* than the opinion polls show.

    Curtice made another interesting point. Your win in Uxbridge was essentially an opposition campaign. As the party in government, what other issues can you oppose...?
    The Government can oppose the Opposition who will be seeking to become the next Government at the election.

    Make it a referendum on "do you want them" rather than "do you still want us".

    Hardly an original concept, and pretty much why swingback exists.

    The danger for Labour is their support may currently be a mile wide, but an inch deep.
    That strategy will hold then 20 of the seats they most need to defend. But ensure they get crushed in the rest. Let's use ULEZ as the example. If Sue Trump now thinks 'lets scrap ULEZ' she will do well in a handful of outer boroughs and get demolished everywhere else.
    And Sue Hall will go all in on opposing ULEZ. From the campaigns to become the candidate, that's already clear.

    As I've said before, it works in Zone 6, which is about the only place where you still find Conservatives in Greater London. But it turns off voters further in.

    And once the scheme is in place, and people have gone to the trouble/expense of adapting, there won't be as many votes in favour of reversal.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,972

    All three by elections were about the cost of living.

    Correct. This remains the Number 1 issue for people. Despite one month of moderately encouraging CPI data it is still 4 times the target. Inflation erodes and ultimately destroys people's earnings, pensions and wealth.

    Not sure LAB have any answers though.
    Inflation will drop. So the question is what kind of economy we want after that happens. That is where Labour need to start offering a vision. We know the Tory vision. It will be cruel and divisive and keep dragging deprived areas into further depravity.

    But at the moment the Labour vision is.....? Tories will try and claim "Labour will tax and spend" as if that hasn't been the Tory reality. But unless Labour actually set out some big ideas, the agenda can still be manipulated by the Tories and their tabloid spiv mates.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,976
    This is the market I want to see.

    What's the betting that, at the general election, the @Conservatives retake Selby while @UKLabour win in Uxbridge?

    https://twitter.com/ProfTimBale/status/1682281190533857280
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,914

    MattW said:

    Good morning

    Congratulations to @HYUFD who said the conservatives would hold Uxbridge

    Also a lot of humble pie is needed by all those who dismissed ULEZ as an issue

    In the wider context the war against the car is not labour's friend

    I'm still not convinced by ULEZ as an issue in London - in a few outer seats, maybe, and imo not in the mayoral election.

    However it remains that around 90% of vehicles are *already* compliant, so the number of voters actually affected will be very small. Not sure how it will play electorally - we'll see. I don't see it saving Tory bacon - the outraged gammon vote in Outer London is not imo dominant enough.

    Perhaps it's more interesting in the other cities which are introducing Low Emission Zones across the country. Those places where there has not been investment in public transport are perhaps exposed, though there's not a clear correlation.

    This is a 2021 graphic, so it may have changed a little.

    I think it is the first evidence that the war on cars may not play into labour's hands

    It certainly played a part in Uxbridge and already we see calls to move the 2030 deadline for all new cars to be EV and here in Wales we have Drakeford cancelling all new road building, including the 3rd Menai crossing notwithstanding Holyhead is to become a free port, and the ideological change of all 30mph zones in Wales to 20mph by default

    It will be interesting how this plays out over the next 15 months

    Remember what happens when labour ignore WVM
    An urban speed limit of 20 mph in Wales is a lot like ULEZ expansion. It isn't the principle that is wrong, it is the speed and lack of thought in which it is being implemented.

    Transport policy is a disaster nationally. There are too many cars, not enough infrastructure (including alternative transport). Driving anywhere is horrendous, particularly in cities. Now that the current Government in Westminster have learned anti - green, anti- safety issues win votes, it is a situation that will undoubtedly get worse.
    This is the BS.

    Driving anywhere, except a tiny minority of the country in inner cities, is pleasant and convenient. Not horrendous.

    Driving is the most freeing, the most liberating, the most self-controlled means of transportation people have in the modern, developed world.

    Relying upon others, on 'public transportation' is a farce and a pathetic joke outside of a tiny number of metropolises, and it always will be.

    There is absolutely nothing wrong with private transportation. Either environmentally, once we switch to clean technologies, or progressively, or for a matter of convenience.
    You are talking s***e as usual.

    As someone who does 30,000 miles a year I take no s*** from a Sunday driver. I can tell you my worst blackspots. M42 around Solihull. M6 Junction 9 to the M54, the entire M25., the Brynglas Tunnel. I wouldn't dream of driving in central London anymore, Birmingham, an hour from Bristol Street to the M5. I could go on all day. If one needs to make an appointment one cannot rely on the motorcar, and use a smart motorway and if there has been an accident one can be, one, two, three hours late.

    It is not the golden age of motoring, that is long gone.
    You make my point for me. There's a reason you drive 30k miles a year, its because driving works, and nothing else does.

    If one needs to make an appointment, the only thing one can rely upon is the motorcar, in almost the entire country.

    Yes traffic may be shit in a few places. Shit happens. I can tell you absolutely eg if there's an accident on the M6, or the M56, or the M62 it can lead to sudden gridlock in towns used as a ratrun to avoid the motorway traffic, or worse a motorway closure.

    But despite that, its still by far the best option.

    The private motorcar, is in almost all circumstances, like democracy. Its the worst option available - except for all other options that have yet been tried.
    But I am telling you it doesn't work. There are too many cars on the road. Private motoring is unsustainable from the practical point of view.

    It wasn't like this 50 years ago, although it has been getting considerably worse year on year over the last 40. We are at gridlock. It has to change.

    You may enjoy the freedom of the open road from a traffic jam, but I don't.
  • kamski said:

    MattW said:

    Good morning

    Congratulations to @HYUFD who said the conservatives would hold Uxbridge

    Also a lot of humble pie is needed by all those who dismissed ULEZ as an issue

    In the wider context the war against the car is not labour's friend

    I'm still not convinced by ULEZ as an issue in London - in a few outer seats, maybe, and imo not in the mayoral election.

    However it remains that around 90% of vehicles are *already* compliant, so the number of voters actually affected will be very small. Not sure how it will play electorally - we'll see. I don't see it saving Tory bacon - the outraged gammon vote in Outer London is not imo dominant enough.

    Perhaps it's more interesting in the other cities which are introducing Low Emission Zones across the country. Those places where there has not been investment in public transport are perhaps exposed, though there's not a clear correlation.

    This is a 2021 graphic, so it may have changed a little.

    I think it is the first evidence that the war on cars may not play into labour's hands

    It certainly played a part in Uxbridge and already we see calls to move the 2030 deadline for all new cars to be EV and here in Wales we have Drakeford cancelling all new road building, including the 3rd Menai crossing notwithstanding Holyhead is to become a free port, and the ideological change of all 30mph zones in Wales to 20mph by default

    It will be interesting how this plays out over the next 15 months

    Remember what happens when labour ignore WVM
    An urban speed limit of 20 mph in Wales is a lot like ULEZ expansion. It isn't the principle that is wrong, it is the speed and lack of thought in which it is being implemented.

    Transport policy is a disaster nationally. There are too many cars, not enough infrastructure (including alternative transport). Driving anywhere is horrendous, particularly in cities. Now that the current Government in Westminster have learned anti - green, anti- safety issues win votes, it is a situation that will undoubtedly get worse.
    This is the BS.

    Driving anywhere, except a tiny minority of the country in inner cities, is pleasant and convenient. Not horrendous.

    Driving is the most freeing, the most liberating, the most self-controlled means of transportation people have in the modern, developed world.

    Relying upon others, on 'public transportation' is a farce and a pathetic joke outside of a tiny number of metropolises, and it always will be.

    There is absolutely nothing wrong with private transportation. Either environmentally, once we switch to clean technologies, or progressively, or for a matter of convenience.
    Personally, I find driving a car is shit everywhere. A bicycle is way more enjoyable.

    Nothing wrong environmentally if we pretend hard enough.

    I know you like to be the king of wishful thinking, but isn't this a bit much eve for you?
    A bicycle is enjoyable for having fun. It is a social activity.

    When it comes to moving a serious distance, or moving multiple people a distance, or moving a heavy or bulky quantity of goods - nothing comes close to a private vehicle.

    And no pretence necessary. Electric cars are the future, not replacing an eighty mile journey to see relatives with riding a bicycle down the M6.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,914

    If the Tories hadn't selected such a loonbag, they could beat Khan next May.

    Jeremy Corbyn might yet ride to her rescue.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,915

    A massive win in Uxbridge for Rishi. It overshadows the other two. Khan needs to have a rethink too!

    It will be interesting which of the three results the media focus on and with their London bias I would expect Uxbridge may well be their choice
    Our man on the ground got it right.

    I suspect the Uxbridge result is the biggest news story. Nick Ferrari will be having kittens, lucky he's on holiday.

    Another take away of course is had Boris Johnson taken his medicine, allowed the recall and fought the seat, he MAY well have been in pole position to condemn Rishi for the losses in Frome and Selby. But alas he didn't have the backbone to fight his corner.
    If Boris Johnson had been the candidate then the election would have been about Boris Johnson and not the ULEZ. If the election had been about Boris Johnson and his breaking the Covid rules then Labour would have walked it and the Tories may have come third.

    I think the Uxbridge result is also a reminder that campaigns do matter. We often forget this because a lot of the time both campaigns are roughly equally effective, and so the net effect is nearly nil, but there is always the potential for one side or the other to mess it up (May, 2017), or to hit on an issue that resonates with the voters (Uxbridge, 2023).

    Team Sunak will now surely believe that if they can find that one killer message, they can win the general election campaign and keep the Tories in government.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,976
    edited July 2023

    If the Tories hadn't selected such a loonbag, they could beat Khan next May.

    Jeremy Corbyn might yet ride to her rescue.
    Jeremy Corbyn is more of a Tory than Sir Keir Starmer ever will be.
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 5,352
    Are Labour really on no net by-election gains this parliament?

    Gained Wakefield and Selby
    Lost Hartlepool

    What am I forgetting?
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Want insight into Labour's narrow failure to take Uxbridge? Read Hillingdon council's case against ULEZ. Here's the argument...we're not like London and the benefits to us are minimal ... 1/




    2/ Tories turned an environmental issue into a local democracy and social justice issue - thus dramatising the next 20 years of British politics

    https://twitter.com/paulmasonnews/status/1682260755045838848?s=20

    Bit like Labour in Brighton….

  • MattW said:

    Good morning

    Congratulations to @HYUFD who said the conservatives would hold Uxbridge

    Also a lot of humble pie is needed by all those who dismissed ULEZ as an issue

    In the wider context the war against the car is not labour's friend

    I'm still not convinced by ULEZ as an issue in London - in a few outer seats, maybe, and imo not in the mayoral election.

    However it remains that around 90% of vehicles are *already* compliant, so the number of voters actually affected will be very small. Not sure how it will play electorally - we'll see. I don't see it saving Tory bacon - the outraged gammon vote in Outer London is not imo dominant enough.

    Perhaps it's more interesting in the other cities which are introducing Low Emission Zones across the country. Those places where there has not been investment in public transport are perhaps exposed, though there's not a clear correlation.

    This is a 2021 graphic, so it may have changed a little.

    I think it is the first evidence that the war on cars may not play into labour's hands

    It certainly played a part in Uxbridge and already we see calls to move the 2030 deadline for all new cars to be EV and here in Wales we have Drakeford cancelling all new road building, including the 3rd Menai crossing notwithstanding Holyhead is to become a free port, and the ideological change of all 30mph zones in Wales to 20mph by default

    It will be interesting how this plays out over the next 15 months

    Remember what happens when labour ignore WVM
    An urban speed limit of 20 mph in Wales is a lot like ULEZ expansion. It isn't the principle that is wrong, it is the speed and lack of thought in which it is being implemented.

    Transport policy is a disaster nationally. There are too many cars, not enough infrastructure (including alternative transport). Driving anywhere is horrendous, particularly in cities. Now that the current Government in Westminster have learned anti - green, anti- safety issues win votes, it is a situation that will undoubtedly get worse.
    This is the BS.

    Driving anywhere, except a tiny minority of the country in inner cities, is pleasant and convenient. Not horrendous.

    Driving is the most freeing, the most liberating, the most self-controlled means of transportation people have in the modern, developed world.

    Relying upon others, on 'public transportation' is a farce and a pathetic joke outside of a tiny number of metropolises, and it always will be.

    There is absolutely nothing wrong with private transportation. Either environmentally, once we switch to clean technologies, or progressively, or for a matter of convenience.
    You are talking s***e as usual.

    As someone who does 30,000 miles a year I take no s*** from a Sunday driver. I can tell you my worst blackspots. M42 around Solihull. M6 Junction 9 to the M54, the entire M25., the Brynglas Tunnel. I wouldn't dream of driving in central London anymore, Birmingham, an hour from Bristol Street to the M5. I could go on all day. If one needs to make an appointment one cannot rely on the motorcar, and use a smart motorway and if there has been an accident one can be, one, two, three hours late.

    It is not the golden age of motoring, that is long gone.
    You make my point for me. There's a reason you drive 30k miles a year, its because driving works, and nothing else does.

    If one needs to make an appointment, the only thing one can rely upon is the motorcar, in almost the entire country.

    Yes traffic may be shit in a few places. Shit happens. I can tell you absolutely eg if there's an accident on the M6, or the M56, or the M62 it can lead to sudden gridlock in towns used as a ratrun to avoid the motorway traffic, or worse a motorway closure.

    But despite that, its still by far the best option.

    The private motorcar, is in almost all circumstances, like democracy. Its the worst option available - except for all other options that have yet been tried.
    But I am telling you it doesn't work. There are too many cars on the road. Private motoring is unsustainable from the practical point of view.

    It wasn't like this 50 years ago, although it has been getting considerably worse year on year over the last 40. We are at gridlock. It has to change.

    You may enjoy the freedom of the open road from a traffic jam, but I don't.
    Here's a novel solution - build more roads.

    If roads are at capacity, build extra capacity. Same as any other transportation.

    Build new motorways, new roads, wider roads, extra lanes, new bridges - whatever is required.

    Yes there's extra people on the roads, that's because *drumroll* there's extra people in the country. We used to have 50 million people in the country, we now have 70 million, but where's the new motorway capacity that has been built to cope with the influx of extra people living here?

    I don't enjoy traffic jams, but they're also quite often easy to avoid, especially if you can be flexible with your hours and with modern phones or satnavs giving traffic alerts it can still be quite possible to be driving at reasonable speeds and traffic jams are the exception not the norm for me.

    But yes, something has to change, and that something is extra road capacity. Not magicking away cars with pixie dust and pushbikes.
  • FeersumEnjineeyaFeersumEnjineeya Posts: 4,499
    edited July 2023

    MattW said:

    Good morning

    Congratulations to @HYUFD who said the conservatives would hold Uxbridge

    Also a lot of humble pie is needed by all those who dismissed ULEZ as an issue

    In the wider context the war against the car is not labour's friend

    I'm still not convinced by ULEZ as an issue in London - in a few outer seats, maybe, and imo not in the mayoral election.

    However it remains that around 90% of vehicles are *already* compliant, so the number of voters actually affected will be very small. Not sure how it will play electorally - we'll see. I don't see it saving Tory bacon - the outraged gammon vote in Outer London is not imo dominant enough.

    Perhaps it's more interesting in the other cities which are introducing Low Emission Zones across the country. Those places where there has not been investment in public transport are perhaps exposed, though there's not a clear correlation.

    This is a 2021 graphic, so it may have changed a little.

    I think it is the first evidence that the war on cars may not play into labour's hands

    It certainly played a part in Uxbridge and already we see calls to move the 2030 deadline for all new cars to be EV and here in Wales we have Drakeford cancelling all new road building, including the 3rd Menai crossing notwithstanding Holyhead is to become a free port, and the ideological change of all 30mph zones in Wales to 20mph by default

    It will be interesting how this plays out over the next 15 months

    Remember what happens when labour ignore WVM
    Isn't that a teeny weeny bit depressing, though?

    After all, most of those measures are about reducing the harms that cars do. ULEZ attempts to deal with some specific localised air pollution. Reducing speed limits makes accidents less likely and less harmful. That sort of thing. Tilting the balance between the benefits drivers get from driving and the costs that society pays.

    One lesson of Uxbridge is that, at least in some seats, that's politically unacceptable. And whilst there's something in the "wrong moment" argument, the experience is that car restraint measures are rarely popular in advance. And there are plenty of other measures that any government is going to have to take in the next few years.

    Are will still so pampered as a nation that we're going to spit out any nasty medicine?
    The intention of a policy - reduction of pollution - may be good. While the implementation/methodology is bad.

    What is politically unacceptable is saying that “those people who are poor and screwed over by this policy - well, the aim of the policy is good. So on consideration, and after some thought FUCK YOU, FUCKERS”.

    ULEZ has become, in the eyes of some poorer people, a tax which has little or no cost on the well off. Who own expensive, frequently updated cars. And/Or can afford to life in the areas with the best public transport connections to their white collar jobs and don’t need a vehicle for work.

    Something to understand as well. Those with cars in the “next tranche”, that tightening ULEZ will ban, are convinced that the next step is coming very soon and will be done in the same way. So far more than the 10% of car owners with non compliant vehicles are upset about this.

    It is perfectly possible to come up with a way to reduce emissions that doesn’t do this. The ULEZ implementation was picked because it was cheap and easy - for the politicians and those running the system. Producer interest vs Consumer.
    What would you suggest?
  • Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 4,780

    ydoethur said:

    Sean_F said:

    I want to express my thanks to HYUFD for his canvassing report.

    It prompted me to put £50 on the Conservatives to hold Uxbridge, at 9-1.

    Quite.

    Maybe people should listen to @HYUFD more rather than just take the piss out of him?

    He does way more for the party than I do.
    Even a stopped clock occasionally tells the right time.
    That's not fair. On polling and seat numbers he's usually pretty shrewd.

    He's just unable to admit when he's wrong on any other subject and he frequently is, which makes him look silly.
    He *can* be right on polling. But he can also endlessly be wrong. Curtice has just laid out the harsh reality that these by-elections show the Tories even further behind than the polls suggested.

    HY cherry picks polls to show things aren't that bad actually and if you look here actually you will see the Tories are right actually. Which isn't correct.

    Not can we set aside that Mr Holier-than-thou has a defective grasp on the faith he rams into everyone's faces, never mind the moral vacuum where literally any depravity can be supported of there is a vote in it.

    He called Uxbridge. Which is insightful! But that doesn't make him right. Because it was ULEZ or if it was Hindu's then it isn't the government and it's 5 People's Priorities which he insists we all have top of mind. Steve Gammon didn't mention them at all in his campaign.
    As you say, Curtice has just laid out the harsh reality for the Tories that these by-elections show them even further behind than the polls suggested. And in doing so he very much downplayed the significance of the Uxbridge result on the basis that an unusual local issue came to the fore there.

    That's a very different emphasis on the big picture than is found in Mike's thread header, which almost treats Selby as an afterthought. I agree with Curtice.

    Even if you ignore the effect of ULEZ, the big picture is this, taking the three by-elections as a whole:
    In the one by-election that the LDs contested actively, their vote share rose by 28.4%
    In the two by-elections that Labour contested actively, their vote share rose by an average of 13.7%
    The Conservatives contested all three by-elections actively, and their vote share fell by an average of 21%.

    Basically the electorate are voting for the Anyone-But-Conservative candidate best placed to win. That's backed up by the fact that that Labour lost their deposit in one by election and the LDs in two, which signals that tactical voting against the Conservatives is back on a massive scale. HYUFD may have called Uxbridge right, but last night also showed that when he downplays the likelihood of tactical voting he could not be more wrong.


  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 5,352

    This is the market I want to see.

    What's the betting that, at the general election, the @Conservatives retake Selby while @UKLabour win in Uxbridge?

    https://twitter.com/ProfTimBale/status/1682281190533857280

    Allow that Selby is losing Ainsty and gaining the area around Kippax under Leeds council.
    That makes it Labour friendlier.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,711
    Just seen pictures of the Selby declaration.

    It looks like a spoof of the one for the Dunny-on-the-Wold by-election.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,468

    kamski said:

    MattW said:

    Good morning

    Congratulations to @HYUFD who said the conservatives would hold Uxbridge

    Also a lot of humble pie is needed by all those who dismissed ULEZ as an issue

    In the wider context the war against the car is not labour's friend

    I'm still not convinced by ULEZ as an issue in London - in a few outer seats, maybe, and imo not in the mayoral election.

    However it remains that around 90% of vehicles are *already* compliant, so the number of voters actually affected will be very small. Not sure how it will play electorally - we'll see. I don't see it saving Tory bacon - the outraged gammon vote in Outer London is not imo dominant enough.

    Perhaps it's more interesting in the other cities which are introducing Low Emission Zones across the country. Those places where there has not been investment in public transport are perhaps exposed, though there's not a clear correlation.

    This is a 2021 graphic, so it may have changed a little.

    I think it is the first evidence that the war on cars may not play into labour's hands

    It certainly played a part in Uxbridge and already we see calls to move the 2030 deadline for all new cars to be EV and here in Wales we have Drakeford cancelling all new road building, including the 3rd Menai crossing notwithstanding Holyhead is to become a free port, and the ideological change of all 30mph zones in Wales to 20mph by default

    It will be interesting how this plays out over the next 15 months

    Remember what happens when labour ignore WVM
    An urban speed limit of 20 mph in Wales is a lot like ULEZ expansion. It isn't the principle that is wrong, it is the speed and lack of thought in which it is being implemented.

    Transport policy is a disaster nationally. There are too many cars, not enough infrastructure (including alternative transport). Driving anywhere is horrendous, particularly in cities. Now that the current Government in Westminster have learned anti - green, anti- safety issues win votes, it is a situation that will undoubtedly get worse.
    This is the BS.

    Driving anywhere, except a tiny minority of the country in inner cities, is pleasant and convenient. Not horrendous.

    Driving is the most freeing, the most liberating, the most self-controlled means of transportation people have in the modern, developed world.

    Relying upon others, on 'public transportation' is a farce and a pathetic joke outside of a tiny number of metropolises, and it always will be.

    There is absolutely nothing wrong with private transportation. Either environmentally, once we switch to clean technologies, or progressively, or for a matter of convenience.
    Personally, I find driving a car is shit everywhere. A bicycle is way more enjoyable.

    Nothing wrong environmentally if we pretend hard enough.

    I know you like to be the king of wishful thinking, but isn't this a bit much eve for you?
    A bicycle is enjoyable for having fun. It is a social activity.

    When it comes to moving a serious distance, or moving multiple people a distance, or moving a heavy or bulky quantity of goods - nothing comes close to a private vehicle.

    And no pretence necessary. Electric cars are the future, not replacing an eighty mile journey to see relatives with riding a bicycle down the M6.
    Fine, as long as car users are paying their externalities properly. Sone of that is schemes like ULEZ, but it's also that car use makes towns and cities inefficient. You have to put stuff further apart to make room for cars. That makes services more expensive to provide and someone has to pick up the tab.

    I've mentioned this group before, small state Americans really unkeen on extensive car provision:

    https://www.strongtowns.org/about
  • MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 2,809

    MattW said:

    Good morning

    Congratulations to @HYUFD who said the conservatives would hold Uxbridge

    Also a lot of humble pie is needed by all those who dismissed ULEZ as an issue

    In the wider context the war against the car is not labour's friend

    I'm still not convinced by ULEZ as an issue in London - in a few outer seats, maybe, and imo not in the mayoral election.

    However it remains that around 90% of vehicles are *already* compliant, so the number of voters actually affected will be very small. Not sure how it will play electorally - we'll see. I don't see it saving Tory bacon - the outraged gammon vote in Outer London is not imo dominant enough.

    Perhaps it's more interesting in the other cities which are introducing Low Emission Zones across the country. Those places where there has not been investment in public transport are perhaps exposed, though there's not a clear correlation.

    This is a 2021 graphic, so it may have changed a little.

    I think it is the first evidence that the war on cars may not play into labour's hands

    It certainly played a part in Uxbridge and already we see calls to move the 2030 deadline for all new cars to be EV and here in Wales we have Drakeford cancelling all new road building, including the 3rd Menai crossing notwithstanding Holyhead is to become a free port, and the ideological change of all 30mph zones in Wales to 20mph by default

    It will be interesting how this plays out over the next 15 months

    Remember what happens when labour ignore WVM
    An urban speed limit of 20 mph in Wales is a lot like ULEZ expansion. It isn't the principle that is wrong, it is the speed and lack of thought in which it is being implemented.

    Transport policy is a disaster nationally. There are too many cars, not enough infrastructure (including alternative transport). Driving anywhere is horrendous, particularly in cities. Now that the current Government in Westminster have learned anti - green, anti- safety issues win votes, it is a situation that will undoubtedly get worse.
    This is the BS.

    Driving anywhere, except a tiny minority of the country in inner cities, is pleasant and convenient. Not horrendous.

    Driving is the most freeing, the most liberating, the most self-controlled means of transportation people have in the modern, developed world.

    Relying upon others, on 'public transportation' is a farce and a pathetic joke outside of a tiny number of metropolises, and it always will be.

    There is absolutely nothing wrong with private transportation. Either environmentally, once we switch to clean technologies, or progressively, or for a matter of convenience.
    You are talking s***e as usual.

    As someone who does 30,000 miles a year I take no s*** from a Sunday driver. I can tell you my worst blackspots. M42 around Solihull. M6 Junction 9 to the M54, the entire M25., the Brynglas Tunnel. I wouldn't dream of driving in central London anymore, Birmingham, an hour from Bristol Street to the M5. I could go on all day. If one needs to make an appointment one cannot rely on the motorcar, and use a smart motorway and if there has been an accident one can be, one, two, three hours late.

    It is not the golden age of motoring, that is long gone.
    You can add the M5 between Gordano and the junction for Weston, and in the summer the whole Bristol-Exeter section. Horrendous.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,167
    IanB2 said:

    The Norwegian tabloids are eschewing the political earthquake breaking in the UK and running with a story about teenagers who sweat too much….

    Any teenager in the presence of the DoY I'd imagine, unlike the great man himself.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 22,415
    edited July 2023

    kamski said:

    MattW said:

    Good morning

    Congratulations to @HYUFD who said the conservatives would hold Uxbridge

    Also a lot of humble pie is needed by all those who dismissed ULEZ as an issue

    In the wider context the war against the car is not labour's friend

    I'm still not convinced by ULEZ as an issue in London - in a few outer seats, maybe, and imo not in the mayoral election.

    However it remains that around 90% of vehicles are *already* compliant, so the number of voters actually affected will be very small. Not sure how it will play electorally - we'll see. I don't see it saving Tory bacon - the outraged gammon vote in Outer London is not imo dominant enough.

    Perhaps it's more interesting in the other cities which are introducing Low Emission Zones across the country. Those places where there has not been investment in public transport are perhaps exposed, though there's not a clear correlation.

    This is a 2021 graphic, so it may have changed a little.

    I think it is the first evidence that the war on cars may not play into labour's hands

    It certainly played a part in Uxbridge and already we see calls to move the 2030 deadline for all new cars to be EV and here in Wales we have Drakeford cancelling all new road building, including the 3rd Menai crossing notwithstanding Holyhead is to become a free port, and the ideological change of all 30mph zones in Wales to 20mph by default

    It will be interesting how this plays out over the next 15 months

    Remember what happens when labour ignore WVM
    An urban speed limit of 20 mph in Wales is a lot like ULEZ expansion. It isn't the principle that is wrong, it is the speed and lack of thought in which it is being implemented.

    Transport policy is a disaster nationally. There are too many cars, not enough infrastructure (including alternative transport). Driving anywhere is horrendous, particularly in cities. Now that the current Government in Westminster have learned anti - green, anti- safety issues win votes, it is a situation that will undoubtedly get worse.
    This is the BS.

    Driving anywhere, except a tiny minority of the country in inner cities, is pleasant and convenient. Not horrendous.

    Driving is the most freeing, the most liberating, the most self-controlled means of transportation people have in the modern, developed world.

    Relying upon others, on 'public transportation' is a farce and a pathetic joke outside of a tiny number of metropolises, and it always will be.

    There is absolutely nothing wrong with private transportation. Either environmentally, once we switch to clean technologies, or progressively, or for a matter of convenience.
    Personally, I find driving a car is shit everywhere. A bicycle is way more enjoyable.

    Nothing wrong environmentally if we pretend hard enough.

    I know you like to be the king of wishful thinking, but isn't this a bit much eve for you?
    A bicycle is enjoyable for having fun. It is a social activity.

    When it comes to moving a serious distance, or moving multiple people a distance, or moving a heavy or bulky quantity of goods - nothing comes close to a private vehicle.

    And no pretence necessary. Electric cars are the future, not replacing an eighty mile journey to see relatives with riding a bicycle down the M6.
    Fine, as long as car users are paying their externalities properly. Sone of that is schemes like ULEZ, but it's also that car use makes towns and cities inefficient. You have to put stuff further apart to make room for cars. That makes services more expensive to provide and someone has to pick up the tab.

    I've mentioned this group before, small state Americans really unkeen on extensive car provision:

    https://www.strongtowns.org/about
    Cars make towns far, far more efficient. Getting about towns at 30-40mph is much faster than walking around town at 3-4mph.

    And you may have mentioned that group before, but I've never heard of them before and they seem batshit crazy to me. There's cults of every kind in America, so no shock there's an anti-car cult.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,711
    It's clearly his only tie, possibly his only suit, and, despite being young and pretty slim, he still manages to look shit in it and like an extra who's escaped from Harry Potter film:


  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,972

    MattW said:

    Good morning

    Congratulations to @HYUFD who said the conservatives would hold Uxbridge

    Also a lot of humble pie is needed by all those who dismissed ULEZ as an issue

    In the wider context the war against the car is not labour's friend

    I'm still not convinced by ULEZ as an issue in London - in a few outer seats, maybe, and imo not in the mayoral election.

    However it remains that around 90% of vehicles are *already* compliant, so the number of voters actually affected will be very small. Not sure how it will play electorally - we'll see. I don't see it saving Tory bacon - the outraged gammon vote in Outer London is not imo dominant enough.

    Perhaps it's more interesting in the other cities which are introducing Low Emission Zones across the country. Those places where there has not been investment in public transport are perhaps exposed, though there's not a clear correlation.

    This is a 2021 graphic, so it may have changed a little.

    I think it is the first evidence that the war on cars may not play into labour's hands

    It certainly played a part in Uxbridge and already we see calls to move the 2030 deadline for all new cars to be EV and here in Wales we have Drakeford cancelling all new road building, including the 3rd Menai crossing notwithstanding Holyhead is to become a free port, and the ideological change of all 30mph zones in Wales to 20mph by default

    It will be interesting how this plays out over the next 15 months

    Remember what happens when labour ignore WVM
    An urban speed limit of 20 mph in Wales is a lot like ULEZ expansion. It isn't the principle that is wrong, it is the speed and lack of thought in which it is being implemented.

    Transport policy is a disaster nationally. There are too many cars, not enough infrastructure (including alternative transport). Driving anywhere is horrendous, particularly in cities. Now that the current Government in Westminster have learned anti - green, anti- safety issues win votes, it is a situation that will undoubtedly get worse.
    This is the BS.

    Driving anywhere, except a tiny minority of the country in inner cities, is pleasant and convenient. Not horrendous.

    Driving is the most freeing, the most liberating, the most self-controlled means of transportation people have in the modern, developed world.

    Relying upon others, on 'public transportation' is a farce and a pathetic joke outside of a tiny number of metropolises, and it always will be.

    There is absolutely nothing wrong with private transportation. Either environmentally, once we switch to clean technologies, or progressively, or for a matter of convenience.
    You are talking s***e as usual.

    As someone who does 30,000 miles a year I take no s*** from a Sunday driver. I can tell you my worst blackspots. M42 around Solihull. M6 Junction 9 to the M54, the entire M25., the Brynglas Tunnel. I wouldn't dream of driving in central London anymore, Birmingham, an hour from Bristol Street to the M5. I could go on all day. If one needs to make an appointment one cannot rely on the motorcar, and use a smart motorway and if there has been an accident one can be, one, two, three hours late.

    It is not the golden age of motoring, that is long gone.
    You make my point for me. There's a reason you drive 30k miles a year, its because driving works, and nothing else does.

    If one needs to make an appointment, the only thing one can rely upon is the motorcar, in almost the entire country.

    Yes traffic may be shit in a few places. Shit happens. I can tell you absolutely eg if there's an accident on the M6, or the M56, or the M62 it can lead to sudden gridlock in towns used as a ratrun to avoid the motorway traffic, or worse a motorway closure.

    But despite that, its still by far the best option.

    The private motorcar, is in almost all circumstances, like democracy. Its the worst option available - except for all other options that have yet been tried.
    But I am telling you it doesn't work. There are too many cars on the road. Private motoring is unsustainable from the practical point of view.

    It wasn't like this 50 years ago, although it has been getting considerably worse year on year over the last 40. We are at gridlock. It has to change.

    You may enjoy the freedom of the open road from a traffic jam, but I don't.
    Here's a novel solution - build more roads.

    If roads are at capacity, build extra capacity. Same as any other transportation.

    Build new motorways, new roads, wider roads, extra lanes, new bridges - whatever is required.

    Yes there's extra people on the roads, that's because *drumroll* there's extra people in the country. We used to have 50 million people in the country, we now have 70 million, but where's the new motorway capacity that has been built to cope with the influx of extra people living here?

    I don't enjoy traffic jams, but they're also quite often easy to avoid, especially if you can be flexible with your hours and with modern phones or satnavs giving traffic alerts it can still be quite possible to be driving at reasonable speeds and traffic jams are the exception not the norm for me.

    But yes, something has to change, and that something is extra road capacity. Not magicking away cars with pixie dust and pushbikes.
    Road-building is still something being done in Scotland - the A90 Aberdeen bypass has transformed the ability of the north east to get about, and has greatly reduced the amount of pollution both on the former through route in the city's western suburbs, but also in villages on other Aberdeen-avoidance routes.

    In classic style you can't actually build new motorways. So instead its legally a motorway but disguised with green signs...
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,967
    Good morning, everyone.

    I saw the betting out on the by-elections, but congratulations to those who had some nice wins. Oh, and the MPs, I suppose.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,976
    edited July 2023
    Final thought.

    Considering Heathener spams the site daily with his vapid bilge about how random strangers tell them about the anger and hatred to the Tories how on Earth did they hold Uxbridge?
  • FeersumEnjineeyaFeersumEnjineeya Posts: 4,499
    edited July 2023

    kamski said:

    MattW said:

    Good morning

    Congratulations to @HYUFD who said the conservatives would hold Uxbridge

    Also a lot of humble pie is needed by all those who dismissed ULEZ as an issue

    In the wider context the war against the car is not labour's friend

    I'm still not convinced by ULEZ as an issue in London - in a few outer seats, maybe, and imo not in the mayoral election.

    However it remains that around 90% of vehicles are *already* compliant, so the number of voters actually affected will be very small. Not sure how it will play electorally - we'll see. I don't see it saving Tory bacon - the outraged gammon vote in Outer London is not imo dominant enough.

    Perhaps it's more interesting in the other cities which are introducing Low Emission Zones across the country. Those places where there has not been investment in public transport are perhaps exposed, though there's not a clear correlation.

    This is a 2021 graphic, so it may have changed a little.

    I think it is the first evidence that the war on cars may not play into labour's hands

    It certainly played a part in Uxbridge and already we see calls to move the 2030 deadline for all new cars to be EV and here in Wales we have Drakeford cancelling all new road building, including the 3rd Menai crossing notwithstanding Holyhead is to become a free port, and the ideological change of all 30mph zones in Wales to 20mph by default

    It will be interesting how this plays out over the next 15 months

    Remember what happens when labour ignore WVM
    An urban speed limit of 20 mph in Wales is a lot like ULEZ expansion. It isn't the principle that is wrong, it is the speed and lack of thought in which it is being implemented.

    Transport policy is a disaster nationally. There are too many cars, not enough infrastructure (including alternative transport). Driving anywhere is horrendous, particularly in cities. Now that the current Government in Westminster have learned anti - green, anti- safety issues win votes, it is a situation that will undoubtedly get worse.
    This is the BS.

    Driving anywhere, except a tiny minority of the country in inner cities, is pleasant and convenient. Not horrendous.

    Driving is the most freeing, the most liberating, the most self-controlled means of transportation people have in the modern, developed world.

    Relying upon others, on 'public transportation' is a farce and a pathetic joke outside of a tiny number of metropolises, and it always will be.

    There is absolutely nothing wrong with private transportation. Either environmentally, once we switch to clean technologies, or progressively, or for a matter of convenience.
    Personally, I find driving a car is shit everywhere. A bicycle is way more enjoyable.

    Nothing wrong environmentally if we pretend hard enough.

    I know you like to be the king of wishful thinking, but isn't this a bit much eve for you?
    A bicycle is enjoyable for having fun. It is a social activity.

    When it comes to moving a serious distance, or moving multiple people a distance, or moving a heavy or bulky quantity of goods - nothing comes close to a private vehicle.

    And no pretence necessary. Electric cars are the future, not replacing an eighty mile journey to see relatives with riding a bicycle down the M6.
    Bicycles are also widely used for commuting. When I lived in Germany, I used to cycle 5 miles to work every day, unless the weather was particularly bad. As well as saving me money, this kept me fit and left more space on the roads for those who needed to use their cars.

    I would commute by bicycle here in the UK, but it's simply too dangerous and unpleasant, so that's another car added to the rush-hour traffic.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,468

    kamski said:

    MattW said:

    Good morning

    Congratulations to @HYUFD who said the conservatives would hold Uxbridge

    Also a lot of humble pie is needed by all those who dismissed ULEZ as an issue

    In the wider context the war against the car is not labour's friend

    I'm still not convinced by ULEZ as an issue in London - in a few outer seats, maybe, and imo not in the mayoral election.

    However it remains that around 90% of vehicles are *already* compliant, so the number of voters actually affected will be very small. Not sure how it will play electorally - we'll see. I don't see it saving Tory bacon - the outraged gammon vote in Outer London is not imo dominant enough.

    Perhaps it's more interesting in the other cities which are introducing Low Emission Zones across the country. Those places where there has not been investment in public transport are perhaps exposed, though there's not a clear correlation.

    This is a 2021 graphic, so it may have changed a little.

    I think it is the first evidence that the war on cars may not play into labour's hands

    It certainly played a part in Uxbridge and already we see calls to move the 2030 deadline for all new cars to be EV and here in Wales we have Drakeford cancelling all new road building, including the 3rd Menai crossing notwithstanding Holyhead is to become a free port, and the ideological change of all 30mph zones in Wales to 20mph by default

    It will be interesting how this plays out over the next 15 months

    Remember what happens when labour ignore WVM
    An urban speed limit of 20 mph in Wales is a lot like ULEZ expansion. It isn't the principle that is wrong, it is the speed and lack of thought in which it is being implemented.

    Transport policy is a disaster nationally. There are too many cars, not enough infrastructure (including alternative transport). Driving anywhere is horrendous, particularly in cities. Now that the current Government in Westminster have learned anti - green, anti- safety issues win votes, it is a situation that will undoubtedly get worse.
    This is the BS.

    Driving anywhere, except a tiny minority of the country in inner cities, is pleasant and convenient. Not horrendous.

    Driving is the most freeing, the most liberating, the most self-controlled means of transportation people have in the modern, developed world.

    Relying upon others, on 'public transportation' is a farce and a pathetic joke outside of a tiny number of metropolises, and it always will be.

    There is absolutely nothing wrong with private transportation. Either environmentally, once we switch to clean technologies, or progressively, or for a matter of convenience.
    Personally, I find driving a car is shit everywhere. A bicycle is way more enjoyable.

    Nothing wrong environmentally if we pretend hard enough.

    I know you like to be the king of wishful thinking, but isn't this a bit much eve for you?
    A bicycle is enjoyable for having fun. It is a social activity.

    When it comes to moving a serious distance, or moving multiple people a distance, or moving a heavy or bulky quantity of goods - nothing comes close to a private vehicle.

    And no pretence necessary. Electric cars are the future, not replacing an eighty mile journey to see relatives with riding a bicycle down the M6.
    Fine, as long as car users are paying their externalities properly. Sone of that is schemes like ULEZ, but it's also that car use makes towns and cities inefficient. You have to put stuff further apart to make room for cars. That makes services more expensive to provide and someone has to pick up the tab.

    I've mentioned this group before, small state Americans really unkeen on extensive car provision:

    https://www.strongtowns.org/about
    Cars make towns far, far more efficient. Getting about towns at 30-40mph is much faster than walking around town at 3-4mph.
    And yet it's public transport that seems to make cities productive:

    https://www.tomforth.co.uk/birminghamisasmallcity/

    So. Do you want Britain to be rich? Do you want it enough to use you car less and other types of transport more?

  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,976
    Anyhoo, this thread is very Anglo-centric.

    The real by election test for Starmer will be in Rutherglen.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,972

    kamski said:

    MattW said:

    Good morning

    Congratulations to @HYUFD who said the conservatives would hold Uxbridge

    Also a lot of humble pie is needed by all those who dismissed ULEZ as an issue

    In the wider context the war against the car is not labour's friend

    I'm still not convinced by ULEZ as an issue in London - in a few outer seats, maybe, and imo not in the mayoral election.

    However it remains that around 90% of vehicles are *already* compliant, so the number of voters actually affected will be very small. Not sure how it will play electorally - we'll see. I don't see it saving Tory bacon - the outraged gammon vote in Outer London is not imo dominant enough.

    Perhaps it's more interesting in the other cities which are introducing Low Emission Zones across the country. Those places where there has not been investment in public transport are perhaps exposed, though there's not a clear correlation.

    This is a 2021 graphic, so it may have changed a little.

    I think it is the first evidence that the war on cars may not play into labour's hands

    It certainly played a part in Uxbridge and already we see calls to move the 2030 deadline for all new cars to be EV and here in Wales we have Drakeford cancelling all new road building, including the 3rd Menai crossing notwithstanding Holyhead is to become a free port, and the ideological change of all 30mph zones in Wales to 20mph by default

    It will be interesting how this plays out over the next 15 months

    Remember what happens when labour ignore WVM
    An urban speed limit of 20 mph in Wales is a lot like ULEZ expansion. It isn't the principle that is wrong, it is the speed and lack of thought in which it is being implemented.

    Transport policy is a disaster nationally. There are too many cars, not enough infrastructure (including alternative transport). Driving anywhere is horrendous, particularly in cities. Now that the current Government in Westminster have learned anti - green, anti- safety issues win votes, it is a situation that will undoubtedly get worse.
    This is the BS.

    Driving anywhere, except a tiny minority of the country in inner cities, is pleasant and convenient. Not horrendous.

    Driving is the most freeing, the most liberating, the most self-controlled means of transportation people have in the modern, developed world.

    Relying upon others, on 'public transportation' is a farce and a pathetic joke outside of a tiny number of metropolises, and it always will be.

    There is absolutely nothing wrong with private transportation. Either environmentally, once we switch to clean technologies, or progressively, or for a matter of convenience.
    Personally, I find driving a car is shit everywhere. A bicycle is way more enjoyable.

    Nothing wrong environmentally if we pretend hard enough.

    I know you like to be the king of wishful thinking, but isn't this a bit much eve for you?
    A bicycle is enjoyable for having fun. It is a social activity.

    When it comes to moving a serious distance, or moving multiple people a distance, or moving a heavy or bulky quantity of goods - nothing comes close to a private vehicle.

    And no pretence necessary. Electric cars are the future, not replacing an eighty mile journey to see relatives with riding a bicycle down the M6.
    Fine, as long as car users are paying their externalities properly. Sone of that is schemes like ULEZ, but it's also that car use makes towns and cities inefficient. You have to put stuff further apart to make room for cars. That makes services more expensive to provide and someone has to pick up the tab.

    I've mentioned this group before, small state Americans really unkeen on extensive car provision:

    https://www.strongtowns.org/about
    Cars make towns far, far more efficient. Getting about towns at 30-40mph is much faster than walking around town at 3-4mph.
    Yes - and no. Lets take Newcastle as a prime example. Yes the Central Motorway East makes for a faster escape northwards from my usual hotel. But had they built the rest of the system then the city would be horribly clogged up with motorways bringing traffic into a terribly small urban area surrounded not only by a motorway ring but also with one passing underneath.

    Think Coventry, only even worse. Parkways absolutely work in planned developments like Birchwood. But not when smashed into urban areas.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,976
    LOL.


  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,778
    tlg86 said:

    That Tories will want to weaponise that Uxbridge result. The problem is, the Tories are committed to banning new ICEs from 2030 (I know that’s to do with climate rather than air quality, but it’s the same effect). I wonder if they might now ditch that and dare Labour to keep that pledge.

    It's not an ICE ban as PHEVs will still be available until 2035. There probably won't be any pure ICE offerings from any major OEMs anyway by then so it's irrelevant what this scumbag government does or doesn't do on the issue.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,772

    Final thought.

    Considering Heathener spams the site daily with his vapid bilge about how random strangers tell him about the anger and hatred to the Tories how on Earth did they hold Uxbridge?

    I thought Heathener was a woman?
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,869
    nico679 said:

    A crumb of comfort for the Tories in Uxbridge . The tactical voting though should really concern them and could add to their loses at the next GE .

    I think it's more than a crumb, it's clearly a result and a half for them, and secures Rishi's job. I hope that the Tory leadership gets a taste for victory and tacks toward popular policies and away from the disastrous WEF policies that electorates across Europe are rejecting.
  • kamski said:

    MattW said:

    Good morning

    Congratulations to @HYUFD who said the conservatives would hold Uxbridge

    Also a lot of humble pie is needed by all those who dismissed ULEZ as an issue

    In the wider context the war against the car is not labour's friend

    I'm still not convinced by ULEZ as an issue in London - in a few outer seats, maybe, and imo not in the mayoral election.

    However it remains that around 90% of vehicles are *already* compliant, so the number of voters actually affected will be very small. Not sure how it will play electorally - we'll see. I don't see it saving Tory bacon - the outraged gammon vote in Outer London is not imo dominant enough.

    Perhaps it's more interesting in the other cities which are introducing Low Emission Zones across the country. Those places where there has not been investment in public transport are perhaps exposed, though there's not a clear correlation.

    This is a 2021 graphic, so it may have changed a little.

    I think it is the first evidence that the war on cars may not play into labour's hands

    It certainly played a part in Uxbridge and already we see calls to move the 2030 deadline for all new cars to be EV and here in Wales we have Drakeford cancelling all new road building, including the 3rd Menai crossing notwithstanding Holyhead is to become a free port, and the ideological change of all 30mph zones in Wales to 20mph by default

    It will be interesting how this plays out over the next 15 months

    Remember what happens when labour ignore WVM
    An urban speed limit of 20 mph in Wales is a lot like ULEZ expansion. It isn't the principle that is wrong, it is the speed and lack of thought in which it is being implemented.

    Transport policy is a disaster nationally. There are too many cars, not enough infrastructure (including alternative transport). Driving anywhere is horrendous, particularly in cities. Now that the current Government in Westminster have learned anti - green, anti- safety issues win votes, it is a situation that will undoubtedly get worse.
    This is the BS.

    Driving anywhere, except a tiny minority of the country in inner cities, is pleasant and convenient. Not horrendous.

    Driving is the most freeing, the most liberating, the most self-controlled means of transportation people have in the modern, developed world.

    Relying upon others, on 'public transportation' is a farce and a pathetic joke outside of a tiny number of metropolises, and it always will be.

    There is absolutely nothing wrong with private transportation. Either environmentally, once we switch to clean technologies, or progressively, or for a matter of convenience.
    Personally, I find driving a car is shit everywhere. A bicycle is way more enjoyable.

    Nothing wrong environmentally if we pretend hard enough.

    I know you like to be the king of wishful thinking, but isn't this a bit much eve for you?
    A bicycle is enjoyable for having fun. It is a social activity.

    When it comes to moving a serious distance, or moving multiple people a distance, or moving a heavy or bulky quantity of goods - nothing comes close to a private vehicle.

    And no pretence necessary. Electric cars are the future, not replacing an eighty mile journey to see relatives with riding a bicycle down the M6.
    Fine, as long as car users are paying their externalities properly. Sone of that is schemes like ULEZ, but it's also that car use makes towns and cities inefficient. You have to put stuff further apart to make room for cars. That makes services more expensive to provide and someone has to pick up the tab.

    I've mentioned this group before, small state Americans really unkeen on extensive car provision:

    https://www.strongtowns.org/about
    Cars make towns far, far more efficient. Getting about towns at 30-40mph is much faster than walking around town at 3-4mph.
    And yet it's public transport that seems to make cities productive:

    https://www.tomforth.co.uk/birminghamisasmallcity/

    So. Do you want Britain to be rich? Do you want it enough to use you car less and other types of transport more?

    Starting with your desire and working backwards again I see. Now jumping from town to city trying desperately to grasp onto a point.

    Yes I want Britain to be rich.

    No I won't use my car less and less productive and less convenient modes of transportation more. Next question please.
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 6,927
    edited July 2023
    What the Uxbridge result does raise is a little word of warning to parties that I suspect the next “voter backlash” issue may be to what are perceived as ill thought through “anti car” policies.

    The rush to demonstrate pro-environmental credentials has undoubtedly led to some councils taking rather zealous action and this will probably continue for the foreseeable future. While these actions are commended by many, oftentimes they are not accompanied by a measurable improvement in public transport provision or other highway improvements which allows a significant backlash to develop. In many ways it is questionable exactly how much benefit is derived from the measures as well, other than inconveniencing motorists. As driving becomes greener, there is the great potential that some of these policies will be looked back on as the Beeching cuts of the roads.

    Look, it’s going to be a highly localised issue, particularly in the outskirts of cities more than anywhere else, and I don’t think it has fully broken through as a political issue yet. But it will.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,161

    HYUFD said:

    So Labour win Selby, the LDs won Somerton but the Tories hold Uxbridge. Who could possibly have predicted that result? Oh yes, me!

    You did, and credit where it's due.

    Did you see that John Curtice clip? Whilst you called this right, you called your party doing *worse* than the opinion polls show.

    Curtice made another interesting point. Your win in Uxbridge was essentially an opposition campaign. As the party in government, what other issues can you oppose...?
    The Government can oppose the Opposition who will be seeking to become the next Government at the election.

    Make it a referendum on "do you want them" rather than "do you still want us".

    Hardly an original concept, and pretty much why swingback exists.

    The danger for Labour is their support may currently be a mile wide, but an inch deep.
    That strategy will hold then 20 of the seats they most need to defend. But ensure they get crushed in the rest. Let's use ULEZ as the example. If Sue Trump now thinks 'lets scrap ULEZ' she will do well in a handful of outer boroughs and get demolished everywhere else.
    And Sue Hall will go all in on opposing ULEZ. From the campaigns to become the candidate, that's already clear.

    As I've said before, it works in Zone 6, which is about the only place where you still find Conservatives in Greater London. But it turns off voters further in.

    And once the scheme is in place, and people have gone to the trouble/expense of adapting, there won't be as many votes in favour of reversal.
    I would be surprised if the result is just down to ULEZ. After all, surely Labour was campaigning hard on a whole stack of issues about which people would want to protest the government?
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,806
    Interesting take from Ian Dunt.

    Interesting byelections results. In terms of next year's general election, they don't change anything...

    ...However, in the long term, it's very disturbing. It demonstrates the kind of opposition which can be rallied to environmental policies and how easily the Conservatives could be seduced into leading it.


    https://twitter.com/iandunt/status/1682267591799177217?s=46&t=57Amb-g8Gwf1lw53fDCljA

    I don't think he's wrong.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,491

    If the Tories hadn't selected such a loonbag, they could beat Khan next May.

    I don’t see now, even with a saner candidate, they can beat Khan. They held Uxbridge, but still suffered a 7% swing against them. They’d need a swing *to* them to win the mayoral contest, and most of London is not like Uxbridge.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,914

    MattW said:

    Good morning

    Congratulations to @HYUFD who said the conservatives would hold Uxbridge

    Also a lot of humble pie is needed by all those who dismissed ULEZ as an issue

    In the wider context the war against the car is not labour's friend

    I'm still not convinced by ULEZ as an issue in London - in a few outer seats, maybe, and imo not in the mayoral election.

    However it remains that around 90% of vehicles are *already* compliant, so the number of voters actually affected will be very small. Not sure how it will play electorally - we'll see. I don't see it saving Tory bacon - the outraged gammon vote in Outer London is not imo dominant enough.

    Perhaps it's more interesting in the other cities which are introducing Low Emission Zones across the country. Those places where there has not been investment in public transport are perhaps exposed, though there's not a clear correlation.

    This is a 2021 graphic, so it may have changed a little.

    I think it is the first evidence that the war on cars may not play into labour's hands

    It certainly played a part in Uxbridge and already we see calls to move the 2030 deadline for all new cars to be EV and here in Wales we have Drakeford cancelling all new road building, including the 3rd Menai crossing notwithstanding Holyhead is to become a free port, and the ideological change of all 30mph zones in Wales to 20mph by default

    It will be interesting how this plays out over the next 15 months

    Remember what happens when labour ignore WVM
    An urban speed limit of 20 mph in Wales is a lot like ULEZ expansion. It isn't the principle that is wrong, it is the speed and lack of thought in which it is being implemented.

    Transport policy is a disaster nationally. There are too many cars, not enough infrastructure (including alternative transport). Driving anywhere is horrendous, particularly in cities. Now that the current Government in Westminster have learned anti - green, anti- safety issues win votes, it is a situation that will undoubtedly get worse.
    This is the BS.

    Driving anywhere, except a tiny minority of the country in inner cities, is pleasant and convenient. Not horrendous.

    Driving is the most freeing, the most liberating, the most self-controlled means of transportation people have in the modern, developed world.

    Relying upon others, on 'public transportation' is a farce and a pathetic joke outside of a tiny number of metropolises, and it always will be.

    There is absolutely nothing wrong with private transportation. Either environmentally, once we switch to clean technologies, or progressively, or for a matter of convenience.
    You are talking s***e as usual.

    As someone who does 30,000 miles a year I take no s*** from a Sunday driver. I can tell you my worst blackspots. M42 around Solihull. M6 Junction 9 to the M54, the entire M25., the Brynglas Tunnel. I wouldn't dream of driving in central London anymore, Birmingham, an hour from Bristol Street to the M5. I could go on all day. If one needs to make an appointment one cannot rely on the motorcar, and use a smart motorway and if there has been an accident one can be, one, two, three hours late.

    It is not the golden age of motoring, that is long gone.
    You make my point for me. There's a reason you drive 30k miles a year, its because driving works, and nothing else does.

    If one needs to make an appointment, the only thing one can rely upon is the motorcar, in almost the entire country.

    Yes traffic may be shit in a few places. Shit happens. I can tell you absolutely eg if there's an accident on the M6, or the M56, or the M62 it can lead to sudden gridlock in towns used as a ratrun to avoid the motorway traffic, or worse a motorway closure.

    But despite that, its still by far the best option.

    The private motorcar, is in almost all circumstances, like democracy. Its the worst option available - except for all other options that have yet been tried.
    But I am telling you it doesn't work. There are too many cars on the road. Private motoring is unsustainable from the practical point of view.

    It wasn't like this 50 years ago, although it has been getting considerably worse year on year over the last 40. We are at gridlock. It has to change.

    You may enjoy the freedom of the open road from a traffic jam, but I don't.
    Here's a novel solution - build more roads.

    If roads are at capacity, build extra capacity. Same as any other transportation.

    Build new motorways, new roads, wider roads, extra lanes, new bridges - whatever is required.

    Yes there's extra people on the roads, that's because *drumroll* there's extra people in the country. We used to have 50 million people in the country, we now have 70 million, but where's the new motorway capacity that has been built to cope with the influx of extra people living here?

    I don't enjoy traffic jams, but they're also quite often easy to avoid, especially if you can be flexible with your hours and with modern phones or satnavs giving traffic alerts it can still be quite possible to be driving at reasonable speeds and traffic jams are the exception not the norm for me.

    But yes, something has to change, and that something is extra road capacity. Not magicking away cars with pixie dust and pushbikes.
    More roads generate more traffic. The M25 is proof in point. And coming from the North West do you never use the series of car parks prefaced with M6. (60, 61, 62 etc, etc) it is chaos for most of the day? P.S. I'd love an M4 Southern Relief Road at Newport, but that would have busted the entire transport budget for Wales for the next five years.

    We need to get about, but as someone who uses private transport all day every day, the private car is unsustainable.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,032
    edited July 2023
    Sean_F said:

    I can't say I'm surprised that the government should perform worse than its poll rating, in a by-election. Governments usually do.

    Absolutely, especially against the Lib Dems who remain masters of by election campaigns.

    I think Rishi will think, it could have been worse. Murmurings about replacing him, never loud, will die away. But the Tories are still on track for a heavy defeat. I am currently estimating them losing 100-120 seats, not a wipe out by any means but a loss of power that may well get worse in the election after that. The pendulum has turned.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,395
    edited July 2023

    HYUFD said:

    So Labour win Selby, the LDs won Somerton but the Tories hold Uxbridge. Who could possibly have predicted that result? Oh yes, me!

    You did, and credit where it's due.

    Did you see that John Curtice clip? Whilst you called this right, you called your party doing *worse* than the opinion polls show.

    Curtice made another interesting point. Your win in Uxbridge was essentially an opposition campaign. As the party in government, what other issues can you oppose...?
    The Government can oppose the Opposition who will be seeking to become the next Government at the election.

    Make it a referendum on "do you want them" rather than "do you still want us".

    Hardly an original concept, and pretty much why swingback exists.

    The danger for Labour is their support may currently be a mile wide, but an inch deep.
    That strategy will hold then 20 of the seats they most need to defend. But ensure they get crushed in the rest. Let's use ULEZ as the example. If Sue Trump now thinks 'lets scrap ULEZ' she will do well in a handful of outer boroughs and get demolished everywhere else.
    And Sue Hall will go all in on opposing ULEZ. From the campaigns to become the candidate, that's already clear.

    As I've said before, it works in Zone 6, which is about the only place where you still find Conservatives in Greater London. But it turns off voters further in.

    And once the scheme is in place, and people have gone to the trouble/expense of adapting, there won't be as many votes in favour of reversal.
    As noted before, as far as the inner zones are concerned, her slogan might as well be "Vote Tory. Choke a baby."
  • MattW said:

    Good morning

    Congratulations to @HYUFD who said the conservatives would hold Uxbridge

    Also a lot of humble pie is needed by all those who dismissed ULEZ as an issue

    In the wider context the war against the car is not labour's friend

    I'm still not convinced by ULEZ as an issue in London - in a few outer seats, maybe, and imo not in the mayoral election.

    However it remains that around 90% of vehicles are *already* compliant, so the number of voters actually affected will be very small. Not sure how it will play electorally - we'll see. I don't see it saving Tory bacon - the outraged gammon vote in Outer London is not imo dominant enough.

    Perhaps it's more interesting in the other cities which are introducing Low Emission Zones across the country. Those places where there has not been investment in public transport are perhaps exposed, though there's not a clear correlation.

    This is a 2021 graphic, so it may have changed a little.

    I think it is the first evidence that the war on cars may not play into labour's hands

    It certainly played a part in Uxbridge and already we see calls to move the 2030 deadline for all new cars to be EV and here in Wales we have Drakeford cancelling all new road building, including the 3rd Menai crossing notwithstanding Holyhead is to become a free port, and the ideological change of all 30mph zones in Wales to 20mph by default

    It will be interesting how this plays out over the next 15 months

    Remember what happens when labour ignore WVM
    An urban speed limit of 20 mph in Wales is a lot like ULEZ expansion. It isn't the principle that is wrong, it is the speed and lack of thought in which it is being implemented.

    Transport policy is a disaster nationally. There are too many cars, not enough infrastructure (including alternative transport). Driving anywhere is horrendous, particularly in cities. Now that the current Government in Westminster have learned anti - green, anti- safety issues win votes, it is a situation that will undoubtedly get worse.
    This is the BS.

    Driving anywhere, except a tiny minority of the country in inner cities, is pleasant and convenient. Not horrendous.

    Driving is the most freeing, the most liberating, the most self-controlled means of transportation people have in the modern, developed world.

    Relying upon others, on 'public transportation' is a farce and a pathetic joke outside of a tiny number of metropolises, and it always will be.

    There is absolutely nothing wrong with private transportation. Either environmentally, once we switch to clean technologies, or progressively, or for a matter of convenience.
    You are talking s***e as usual.

    As someone who does 30,000 miles a year I take no s*** from a Sunday driver. I can tell you my worst blackspots. M42 around Solihull. M6 Junction 9 to the M54, the entire M25., the Brynglas Tunnel. I wouldn't dream of driving in central London anymore, Birmingham, an hour from Bristol Street to the M5. I could go on all day. If one needs to make an appointment one cannot rely on the motorcar, and use a smart motorway and if there has been an accident one can be, one, two, three hours late.

    It is not the golden age of motoring, that is long gone.
    You make my point for me. There's a reason you drive 30k miles a year, its because driving works, and nothing else does.

    If one needs to make an appointment, the only thing one can rely upon is the motorcar, in almost the entire country.

    Yes traffic may be shit in a few places. Shit happens. I can tell you absolutely eg if there's an accident on the M6, or the M56, or the M62 it can lead to sudden gridlock in towns used as a ratrun to avoid the motorway traffic, or worse a motorway closure.

    But despite that, its still by far the best option.

    The private motorcar, is in almost all circumstances, like democracy. Its the worst option available - except for all other options that have yet been tried.
    But I am telling you it doesn't work. There are too many cars on the road. Private motoring is unsustainable from the practical point of view.

    It wasn't like this 50 years ago, although it has been getting considerably worse year on year over the last 40. We are at gridlock. It has to change.

    You may enjoy the freedom of the open road from a traffic jam, but I don't.
    Here's a novel solution - build more roads.

    If roads are at capacity, build extra capacity. Same as any other transportation.

    Build new motorways, new roads, wider roads, extra lanes, new bridges - whatever is required.

    Yes there's extra people on the roads, that's because *drumroll* there's extra people in the country. We used to have 50 million people in the country, we now have 70 million, but where's the new motorway capacity that has been built to cope with the influx of extra people living here?

    I don't enjoy traffic jams, but they're also quite often easy to avoid, especially if you can be flexible with your hours and with modern phones or satnavs giving traffic alerts it can still be quite possible to be driving at reasonable speeds and traffic jams are the exception not the norm for me.

    But yes, something has to change, and that something is extra road capacity. Not magicking away cars with pixie dust and pushbikes.
    Road-building is still something being done in Scotland - the A90 Aberdeen bypass has transformed the ability of the north east to get about, and has greatly reduced the amount of pollution both on the former through route in the city's western suburbs, but also in villages on other Aberdeen-avoidance routes.

    In classic style you can't actually build new motorways. So instead its legally a motorway but disguised with green signs...
    Yes a lot of traffic driving through towns are often quite literally driving through the town. The driver has no desire to be in the town, it's simply on the route.

    New roads that bypass towns at a higher speed limit both provide more capacity and convenience for drivers commuting a distance, and free up the local roads for local traffic, whether cars, buses or bicycles.
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 6,927
    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    So Labour win Selby, the LDs won Somerton but the Tories hold Uxbridge. Who could possibly have predicted that result? Oh yes, me!

    You did, and credit where it's due.

    Did you see that John Curtice clip? Whilst you called this right, you called your party doing *worse* than the opinion polls show.

    Curtice made another interesting point. Your win in Uxbridge was essentially an opposition campaign. As the party in government, what other issues can you oppose...?
    The Government can oppose the Opposition who will be seeking to become the next Government at the election.

    Make it a referendum on "do you want them" rather than "do you still want us".

    Hardly an original concept, and pretty much why swingback exists.

    The danger for Labour is their support may currently be a mile wide, but an inch deep.
    That strategy will hold then 20 of the seats they most need to defend. But ensure they get crushed in the rest. Let's use ULEZ as the example. If Sue Trump now thinks 'lets scrap ULEZ' she will do well in a handful of outer boroughs and get demolished everywhere else.
    And Sue Hall will go all in on opposing ULEZ. From the campaigns to become the candidate, that's already clear.

    As I've said before, it works in Zone 6, which is about the only place where you still find Conservatives in Greater London. But it turns off voters further in.

    And once the scheme is in place, and people have gone to the trouble/expense of adapting, there won't be as many votes in favour of reversal.
    I would be surprised if the result is just down to ULEZ. After all, surely Labour was campaigning hard on a whole stack of issues about which people would want to protest the government?
    Possibly. But something like ULEZ is easy to weaponise. This is something that is going to be imposed on YOU*. YOU have a chance to stop this and your chance of doing so is sending a message.

    *it’s rather cynical politics because probably a lot of people aren’t affected by it in that they don’t own an affected vehicle. But it’s a bit like IHT - you can galvanise a lot of support of people that fear its impact than are actually measurably affected by it.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,395

    kamski said:

    MattW said:

    Good morning

    Congratulations to @HYUFD who said the conservatives would hold Uxbridge

    Also a lot of humble pie is needed by all those who dismissed ULEZ as an issue

    In the wider context the war against the car is not labour's friend

    I'm still not convinced by ULEZ as an issue in London - in a few outer seats, maybe, and imo not in the mayoral election.

    However it remains that around 90% of vehicles are *already* compliant, so the number of voters actually affected will be very small. Not sure how it will play electorally - we'll see. I don't see it saving Tory bacon - the outraged gammon vote in Outer London is not imo dominant enough.

    Perhaps it's more interesting in the other cities which are introducing Low Emission Zones across the country. Those places where there has not been investment in public transport are perhaps exposed, though there's not a clear correlation.

    This is a 2021 graphic, so it may have changed a little.

    I think it is the first evidence that the war on cars may not play into labour's hands

    It certainly played a part in Uxbridge and already we see calls to move the 2030 deadline for all new cars to be EV and here in Wales we have Drakeford cancelling all new road building, including the 3rd Menai crossing notwithstanding Holyhead is to become a free port, and the ideological change of all 30mph zones in Wales to 20mph by default

    It will be interesting how this plays out over the next 15 months

    Remember what happens when labour ignore WVM
    An urban speed limit of 20 mph in Wales is a lot like ULEZ expansion. It isn't the principle that is wrong, it is the speed and lack of thought in which it is being implemented.

    Transport policy is a disaster nationally. There are too many cars, not enough infrastructure (including alternative transport). Driving anywhere is horrendous, particularly in cities. Now that the current Government in Westminster have learned anti - green, anti- safety issues win votes, it is a situation that will undoubtedly get worse.
    This is the BS.

    Driving anywhere, except a tiny minority of the country in inner cities, is pleasant and convenient. Not horrendous.

    Driving is the most freeing, the most liberating, the most self-controlled means of transportation people have in the modern, developed world.

    Relying upon others, on 'public transportation' is a farce and a pathetic joke outside of a tiny number of metropolises, and it always will be.

    There is absolutely nothing wrong with private transportation. Either environmentally, once we switch to clean technologies, or progressively, or for a matter of convenience.
    Personally, I find driving a car is shit everywhere. A bicycle is way more enjoyable.

    Nothing wrong environmentally if we pretend hard enough.

    I know you like to be the king of wishful thinking, but isn't this a bit much eve for you?
    A bicycle is enjoyable for having fun. It is a social activity.

    When it comes to moving a serious distance, or moving multiple people a distance, or moving a heavy or bulky quantity of goods - nothing comes close to a private vehicle.

    And no pretence necessary. Electric cars are the future, not replacing an eighty mile journey to see relatives with riding a bicycle down the M6.
    Driving a bicycle can be very practical for a very large number of journeys. Not every journey, but I'm not a dogmatist who would propose one mode of transport is suitable for every journey.

    Here in West Cork I'm finding driving is a lot easier than I ever found it anywhere in Britain. Where the population density is low a car comes into its own. But we visited Bath recently, using public transport when we were there this time - on a previous visit we'd driven, and in any sort of reasonably-sized urban area, using a car becomes nightmarish, and there are much better options.

    My recommendation to you is to drive to the West of Ireland for a holiday. Experience the freedom of driving on roads where the worst traffic you have to worry about is an occasional tractor, or herd of cows. Then take yourself off for a holiday somewhere with good cycling infrastructure - some European city - and enjoy the freedom of being able to explore a city by bicycle, without having to battle the hassle of urban driving.

    I think it would give you a broader perspective. You have a very narrow focus on car driving, and cannot imagine anything different.
    There is such a thing as a phobia brought on by unfortunate experiences in school buses many, many years ago.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,161

    kamski said:

    MattW said:

    Good morning

    Congratulations to @HYUFD who said the conservatives would hold Uxbridge

    Also a lot of humble pie is needed by all those who dismissed ULEZ as an issue

    In the wider context the war against the car is not labour's friend

    I'm still not convinced by ULEZ as an issue in London - in a few outer seats, maybe, and imo not in the mayoral election.

    However it remains that around 90% of vehicles are *already* compliant, so the number of voters actually affected will be very small. Not sure how it will play electorally - we'll see. I don't see it saving Tory bacon - the outraged gammon vote in Outer London is not imo dominant enough.

    Perhaps it's more interesting in the other cities which are introducing Low Emission Zones across the country. Those places where there has not been investment in public transport are perhaps exposed, though there's not a clear correlation.

    This is a 2021 graphic, so it may have changed a little.

    I think it is the first evidence that the war on cars may not play into labour's hands

    It certainly played a part in Uxbridge and already we see calls to move the 2030 deadline for all new cars to be EV and here in Wales we have Drakeford cancelling all new road building, including the 3rd Menai crossing notwithstanding Holyhead is to become a free port, and the ideological change of all 30mph zones in Wales to 20mph by default

    It will be interesting how this plays out over the next 15 months

    Remember what happens when labour ignore WVM
    An urban speed limit of 20 mph in Wales is a lot like ULEZ expansion. It isn't the principle that is wrong, it is the speed and lack of thought in which it is being implemented.

    Transport policy is a disaster nationally. There are too many cars, not enough infrastructure (including alternative transport). Driving anywhere is horrendous, particularly in cities. Now that the current Government in Westminster have learned anti - green, anti- safety issues win votes, it is a situation that will undoubtedly get worse.
    This is the BS.

    Driving anywhere, except a tiny minority of the country in inner cities, is pleasant and convenient. Not horrendous.

    Driving is the most freeing, the most liberating, the most self-controlled means of transportation people have in the modern, developed world.

    Relying upon others, on 'public transportation' is a farce and a pathetic joke outside of a tiny number of metropolises, and it always will be.

    There is absolutely nothing wrong with private transportation. Either environmentally, once we switch to clean technologies, or progressively, or for a matter of convenience.
    Personally, I find driving a car is shit everywhere. A bicycle is way more enjoyable.

    Nothing wrong environmentally if we pretend hard enough.

    I know you like to be the king of wishful thinking, but isn't this a bit much eve for you?
    A bicycle is enjoyable for having fun. It is a social activity.

    When it comes to moving a serious distance, or moving multiple people a distance, or moving a heavy or bulky quantity of goods - nothing comes close to a private vehicle.

    And no pretence necessary. Electric cars are the future, not replacing an eighty mile journey to see relatives with riding a bicycle down the M6.
    Fine, as long as car users are paying their externalities properly. Sone of that is schemes like ULEZ, but it's also that car use makes towns and cities inefficient. You have to put stuff further apart to make room for cars. That makes services more expensive to provide and someone has to pick up the tab.

    I've mentioned this group before, small state Americans really unkeen on extensive car provision:

    https://www.strongtowns.org/about
    Cars make towns far, far more efficient. Getting about towns at 30-40mph is much faster than walking around town at 3-4mph.
    And yet it's public transport that seems to make cities productive:

    https://www.tomforth.co.uk/birminghamisasmallcity/

    So. Do you want Britain to be rich? Do you want it enough to use you car less and other types of transport more?

    You two seem to be missing that ULEZ is about the type of car (/vehicle), not about car use per se.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    A bit of MRDA, but true nonetheless

    | NEW: Angela Rayner pins the blame on Sadiq Khan for Labour narrowly missing out on Uxbridge

    “The decision in Uxbridge was related to Ulez. The Uxbridge result shows that when you don’t listen to the voters, you don’t win elections.”


    https://twitter.com/PolitlcsUK/status/1682269537259999232?s=20
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,106

    Interesting take from Ian Dunt.

    Interesting byelections results. In terms of next year's general election, they don't change anything...

    ...However, in the long term, it's very disturbing. It demonstrates the kind of opposition which can be rallied to environmental policies and how easily the Conservatives could be seduced into leading it.


    https://twitter.com/iandunt/status/1682267591799177217?s=46&t=57Amb-g8Gwf1lw53fDCljA

    I don't think he's wrong.

    The Tories are already the face of "pour raw shit in our rivers and beaches"

    And yes, they could well be enticed to also be the face of "choke a baby"

    Concrete over the Home Counties.

    What could possibly go wrong?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,772

    A bit of MRDA, but true nonetheless

    | NEW: Angela Rayner pins the blame on Sadiq Khan for Labour narrowly missing out on Uxbridge

    “The decision in Uxbridge was related to Ulez. The Uxbridge result shows that when you don’t listen to the voters, you don’t win elections.”


    https://twitter.com/PolitlcsUK/status/1682269537259999232?s=20

    Called it...
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,914
    edited July 2023
    ...
    HYUFD said:

    So Labour win Selby, the LDs won Somerton but the Tories hold Uxbridge. Who could possibly have predicted that result? Oh yes, me!

    You have every right to polish your tin foil hat!

    Joking aside, you called it right, and very much against the odds.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 13,215

    TimS said:

    Meanwhile Sir John Curtice tells Nick Robinson that the overnight results show the Tories are a long way behind, declining their vote by a greater margin than the opinion polls show...

    https://twitter.com/BBCr4today/status/1682272534551461888?t=peCMFE5rExTfyHOg6gI_qA&s=19

    Nobody can deny that it was a poor night but Uxbridge was unexpected, despite @HYUFD predictions, and for Sunak it must be a relief as he goes into recess

    We are still 15 months away from a GE and events happen, including what happens in Scotland to the SNP
    Hopefully Uxbridge will encourage Tory complacency. Brunel university being out of term will have helped them too.

    What was the swing in Uxbridge? 6.7% from 2019. So if you apply that as UNS on electoral calculus on the new boundaries that gives you Lab largest party and 15 short of a majority. That’s without any SNP losses and no tactical voting.

    So a Labour majority is quite possible even with Uxbridge-style swing.
    If anyone is in danger of complacency it is labour, I cannot imagine any conservative is
    Have you not listened to them this morning on Today or read them on Twitter (and on here)? They are heartened. In Uxbridge they see a chink of light, a route through to the victory that they deserve and are constitutionally entitled to.

    Never mind Selby. Who knows what happened there. And Somerton can be discounted as that’s just Lib Dems winning a mid term by-election. The big story is Uxbridge.

    I must say there’s also been woeful expectation management by Labour. How on earth have they managed to make a 20%+ swing in Yorkshire seem widely expected and nailed on? That should have been the shock result of the night.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,263
    FF43 said:

    All three results were remarkable. Somerton and Selby for the size of the swing; Uxbridge for the smallness of it.

    Notable also is that the Green vote does not get squeezed. Indeed quite the opposite.
    Will that persist in the General Election ?
  • MattW said:

    Good morning

    Congratulations to @HYUFD who said the conservatives would hold Uxbridge

    Also a lot of humble pie is needed by all those who dismissed ULEZ as an issue

    In the wider context the war against the car is not labour's friend

    I'm still not convinced by ULEZ as an issue in London - in a few outer seats, maybe, and imo not in the mayoral election.

    However it remains that around 90% of vehicles are *already* compliant, so the number of voters actually affected will be very small. Not sure how it will play electorally - we'll see. I don't see it saving Tory bacon - the outraged gammon vote in Outer London is not imo dominant enough.

    Perhaps it's more interesting in the other cities which are introducing Low Emission Zones across the country. Those places where there has not been investment in public transport are perhaps exposed, though there's not a clear correlation.

    This is a 2021 graphic, so it may have changed a little.

    I think it is the first evidence that the war on cars may not play into labour's hands

    It certainly played a part in Uxbridge and already we see calls to move the 2030 deadline for all new cars to be EV and here in Wales we have Drakeford cancelling all new road building, including the 3rd Menai crossing notwithstanding Holyhead is to become a free port, and the ideological change of all 30mph zones in Wales to 20mph by default

    It will be interesting how this plays out over the next 15 months

    Remember what happens when labour ignore WVM
    An urban speed limit of 20 mph in Wales is a lot like ULEZ expansion. It isn't the principle that is wrong, it is the speed and lack of thought in which it is being implemented.

    Transport policy is a disaster nationally. There are too many cars, not enough infrastructure (including alternative transport). Driving anywhere is horrendous, particularly in cities. Now that the current Government in Westminster have learned anti - green, anti- safety issues win votes, it is a situation that will undoubtedly get worse.
    This is the BS.

    Driving anywhere, except a tiny minority of the country in inner cities, is pleasant and convenient. Not horrendous.

    Driving is the most freeing, the most liberating, the most self-controlled means of transportation people have in the modern, developed world.

    Relying upon others, on 'public transportation' is a farce and a pathetic joke outside of a tiny number of metropolises, and it always will be.

    There is absolutely nothing wrong with private transportation. Either environmentally, once we switch to clean technologies, or progressively, or for a matter of convenience.
    You are talking s***e as usual.

    As someone who does 30,000 miles a year I take no s*** from a Sunday driver. I can tell you my worst blackspots. M42 around Solihull. M6 Junction 9 to the M54, the entire M25., the Brynglas Tunnel. I wouldn't dream of driving in central London anymore, Birmingham, an hour from Bristol Street to the M5. I could go on all day. If one needs to make an appointment one cannot rely on the motorcar, and use a smart motorway and if there has been an accident one can be, one, two, three hours late.

    It is not the golden age of motoring, that is long gone.
    You make my point for me. There's a reason you drive 30k miles a year, its because driving works, and nothing else does.

    If one needs to make an appointment, the only thing one can rely upon is the motorcar, in almost the entire country.

    Yes traffic may be shit in a few places. Shit happens. I can tell you absolutely eg if there's an accident on the M6, or the M56, or the M62 it can lead to sudden gridlock in towns used as a ratrun to avoid the motorway traffic, or worse a motorway closure.

    But despite that, its still by far the best option.

    The private motorcar, is in almost all circumstances, like democracy. Its the worst option available - except for all other options that have yet been tried.
    But I am telling you it doesn't work. There are too many cars on the road. Private motoring is unsustainable from the practical point of view.

    It wasn't like this 50 years ago, although it has been getting considerably worse year on year over the last 40. We are at gridlock. It has to change.

    You may enjoy the freedom of the open road from a traffic jam, but I don't.
    Here's a novel solution - build more roads.

    If roads are at capacity, build extra capacity. Same as any other transportation.

    Build new motorways, new roads, wider roads, extra lanes, new bridges - whatever is required.

    Yes there's extra people on the roads, that's because *drumroll* there's extra people in the country. We used to have 50 million people in the country, we now have 70 million, but where's the new motorway capacity that has been built to cope with the influx of extra people living here?

    I don't enjoy traffic jams, but they're also quite often easy to avoid, especially if you can be flexible with your hours and with modern phones or satnavs giving traffic alerts it can still be quite possible to be driving at reasonable speeds and traffic jams are the exception not the norm for me.

    But yes, something has to change, and that something is extra road capacity. Not magicking away cars with pixie dust and pushbikes.
    More roads generate more traffic. The M25 is proof in point. And coming from the North West do you never use the series of car parks prefaced with M6. (60, 61, 62 etc, etc) it is chaos for most of the day? P.S. I'd love an M4 Southern Relief Road at Newport, but that would have busted the entire transport budget for Wales for the next five years.

    We need to get about, but as someone who uses private transport all day every day, the private car is unsustainable.
    "More roads generate more traffic" - great!

    More traffic is a good thing. It's more transportation, more activity, more convenience, more business. Why oppose that?

    More traffic spread over more roads is less traffic per road, not more, overall like a supermarket opening extra checkouts not forcing everyone through just one checkout.

    The private car is only unsustainable if you haven't considered every other option which is even less sustainable.
  • londonpubmanlondonpubman Posts: 3,640
    DavidL said:

    Sean_F said:

    I can't say I'm surprised that the government should perform worse than its poll rating, in a by-election. Governments usually do.

    Absolutely, especially against the Lib Dems who remain masters of by election campaigns.

    I think Rishi will think, it could have been worse. Murmurings about replacing him, never loud, will die away. But the Tories are still on track for a heavy defeat. I am currently estimating them losing 100-120 seats, not a wipe out by any means but a loss of power that may well get worse in the election after that. The pendulum has turned.
    CON 240 seats or so at the next GE is entirely plausible and in line with my own expectations. So not a wipeout.

    So LAB to get the overall majority or maybe fall just short, Keir will be PM in any case as LAB will do a deal with LDs, their 20-25 seats will be enough to provide a stable government through confidence and supply.
  • GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,860

    kamski said:

    MattW said:

    Good morning

    Congratulations to @HYUFD who said the conservatives would hold Uxbridge

    Also a lot of humble pie is needed by all those who dismissed ULEZ as an issue

    In the wider context the war against the car is not labour's friend

    I'm still not convinced by ULEZ as an issue in London - in a few outer seats, maybe, and imo not in the mayoral election.

    However it remains that around 90% of vehicles are *already* compliant, so the number of voters actually affected will be very small. Not sure how it will play electorally - we'll see. I don't see it saving Tory bacon - the outraged gammon vote in Outer London is not imo dominant enough.

    Perhaps it's more interesting in the other cities which are introducing Low Emission Zones across the country. Those places where there has not been investment in public transport are perhaps exposed, though there's not a clear correlation.

    This is a 2021 graphic, so it may have changed a little.

    I think it is the first evidence that the war on cars may not play into labour's hands

    It certainly played a part in Uxbridge and already we see calls to move the 2030 deadline for all new cars to be EV and here in Wales we have Drakeford cancelling all new road building, including the 3rd Menai crossing notwithstanding Holyhead is to become a free port, and the ideological change of all 30mph zones in Wales to 20mph by default

    It will be interesting how this plays out over the next 15 months

    Remember what happens when labour ignore WVM
    An urban speed limit of 20 mph in Wales is a lot like ULEZ expansion. It isn't the principle that is wrong, it is the speed and lack of thought in which it is being implemented.

    Transport policy is a disaster nationally. There are too many cars, not enough infrastructure (including alternative transport). Driving anywhere is horrendous, particularly in cities. Now that the current Government in Westminster have learned anti - green, anti- safety issues win votes, it is a situation that will undoubtedly get worse.
    This is the BS.

    Driving anywhere, except a tiny minority of the country in inner cities, is pleasant and convenient. Not horrendous.

    Driving is the most freeing, the most liberating, the most self-controlled means of transportation people have in the modern, developed world.

    Relying upon others, on 'public transportation' is a farce and a pathetic joke outside of a tiny number of metropolises, and it always will be.

    There is absolutely nothing wrong with private transportation. Either environmentally, once we switch to clean technologies, or progressively, or for a matter of convenience.
    Personally, I find driving a car is shit everywhere. A bicycle is way more enjoyable.

    Nothing wrong environmentally if we pretend hard enough.

    I know you like to be the king of wishful thinking, but isn't this a bit much eve for you?
    A bicycle is enjoyable for having fun. It is a social activity.

    When it comes to moving a serious distance, or moving multiple people a distance, or moving a heavy or bulky quantity of goods - nothing comes close to a private vehicle.

    And no pretence necessary. Electric cars are the future, not replacing an eighty mile journey to see relatives with riding a bicycle down the M6.
    Bicycles are also widely used for commuting. When I lived in Germany, I used to cycle 5 miles to work every day, unless the weather was particularly bad. As well as saving me money, this kept me fit and left more space on the roads for those who needed to use their cars.

    I would commute by bicycle here in the UK, but it's simply too dangerous and unpleasant, so that's another car added to the rush-hour traffic.
    The idea that bikes are inherently recreational rather than utility vehicles is quite silly. They ought to be a perfectly good way of making practical 2-10 mile journeys (like commutes). They can (like cars!) absolutely be recreational too.

    I don’t think anyone is seriously suggesting replacing cars with bikes for long journeys. But most people don’t make long journeys that often.

    Let’s be careful though, this thread carries an increasing risk of becoming about WFH.
  • kamski said:

    MattW said:

    Good morning

    Congratulations to @HYUFD who said the conservatives would hold Uxbridge

    Also a lot of humble pie is needed by all those who dismissed ULEZ as an issue

    In the wider context the war against the car is not labour's friend

    I'm still not convinced by ULEZ as an issue in London - in a few outer seats, maybe, and imo not in the mayoral election.

    However it remains that around 90% of vehicles are *already* compliant, so the number of voters actually affected will be very small. Not sure how it will play electorally - we'll see. I don't see it saving Tory bacon - the outraged gammon vote in Outer London is not imo dominant enough.

    Perhaps it's more interesting in the other cities which are introducing Low Emission Zones across the country. Those places where there has not been investment in public transport are perhaps exposed, though there's not a clear correlation.

    This is a 2021 graphic, so it may have changed a little.

    I think it is the first evidence that the war on cars may not play into labour's hands

    It certainly played a part in Uxbridge and already we see calls to move the 2030 deadline for all new cars to be EV and here in Wales we have Drakeford cancelling all new road building, including the 3rd Menai crossing notwithstanding Holyhead is to become a free port, and the ideological change of all 30mph zones in Wales to 20mph by default

    It will be interesting how this plays out over the next 15 months

    Remember what happens when labour ignore WVM
    An urban speed limit of 20 mph in Wales is a lot like ULEZ expansion. It isn't the principle that is wrong, it is the speed and lack of thought in which it is being implemented.

    Transport policy is a disaster nationally. There are too many cars, not enough infrastructure (including alternative transport). Driving anywhere is horrendous, particularly in cities. Now that the current Government in Westminster have learned anti - green, anti- safety issues win votes, it is a situation that will undoubtedly get worse.
    This is the BS.

    Driving anywhere, except a tiny minority of the country in inner cities, is pleasant and convenient. Not horrendous.

    Driving is the most freeing, the most liberating, the most self-controlled means of transportation people have in the modern, developed world.

    Relying upon others, on 'public transportation' is a farce and a pathetic joke outside of a tiny number of metropolises, and it always will be.

    There is absolutely nothing wrong with private transportation. Either environmentally, once we switch to clean technologies, or progressively, or for a matter of convenience.
    Personally, I find driving a car is shit everywhere. A bicycle is way more enjoyable.

    Nothing wrong environmentally if we pretend hard enough.

    I know you like to be the king of wishful thinking, but isn't this a bit much eve for you?
    A bicycle is enjoyable for having fun. It is a social activity.

    When it comes to moving a serious distance, or moving multiple people a distance, or moving a heavy or bulky quantity of goods - nothing comes close to a private vehicle.

    And no pretence necessary. Electric cars are the future, not replacing an eighty mile journey to see relatives with riding a bicycle down the M6.
    Driving a bicycle can be very practical for a very large number of journeys. Not every journey, but I'm not a dogmatist who would propose one mode of transport is suitable for every journey.

    Here in West Cork I'm finding driving is a lot easier than I ever found it anywhere in Britain. Where the population density is low a car comes into its own. But we visited Bath recently, using public transport when we were there this time - on a previous visit we'd driven, and in any sort of reasonably-sized urban area, using a car becomes nightmarish, and there are much better options.

    My recommendation to you is to drive to the West of Ireland for a holiday. Experience the freedom of driving on roads where the worst traffic you have to worry about is an occasional tractor, or herd of cows. Then take yourself off for a holiday somewhere with good cycling infrastructure - some European city - and enjoy the freedom of being able to explore a city by bicycle, without having to battle the hassle of urban driving.

    I think it would give you a broader perspective. You have a very narrow focus on car driving, and cannot imagine anything different.
    When we were in Valencia, my son commented on the number of middle-aged women riding bicycles in normal clothes, obviously simply using a bike to get from A to B. Having grown up in the UK, it was something of a novelty to him that bikes could actually be used as practical transport by a wide range of people and not just for recreation by sporty types.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,947

    It's clearly his only tie, possibly his only suit, and, despite being young and pretty slim, he still manages to look shit in it and like an extra who's escaped from Harry Potter film:


    I think that is more a reflection on our age @Casino_Royale (although I know you are a lot younger than me). I must admit my first thought was that if he didn't get to bed he would be late for school. Consequences of getting older.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,987

    ydoethur said:

    Sean_F said:

    I want to express my thanks to HYUFD for his canvassing report.

    It prompted me to put £50 on the Conservatives to hold Uxbridge, at 9-1.

    Quite.

    Maybe people should listen to @HYUFD more rather than just take the piss out of him?

    He does way more for the party than I do.
    Even a stopped clock occasionally tells the right time.
    That's not fair. On polling and seat numbers he's usually pretty shrewd.

    He's just unable to admit when he's wrong on any other subject and he frequently is, which makes him look silly.
    He *can* be right on polling. But he can also endlessly be wrong. Curtice has just laid out the harsh reality that these by-elections show the Tories even further behind than the polls suggested.

    HY cherry picks polls to show things aren't that bad actually and if you look here actually you will see the Tories are right actually. Which isn't correct.

    Not can we set aside that Mr Holier-than-thou has a defective grasp on the faith he rams into everyone's faces, never mind the moral vacuum where literally any depravity can be supported of there is a vote in it.

    He called Uxbridge. Which is insightful! But that doesn't make him right. Because it was ULEZ or if it was Hindu's then it isn't the government and it's 5 People's Priorities which he insists we all have top of mind. Steve Gammon didn't mention them at all in his campaign.
    As you say, Curtice has just laid out the harsh reality for the Tories that these by-elections show them even further behind than the polls suggested. And in doing so he very much downplayed the significance of the Uxbridge result on the basis that an unusual local issue came to the fore there.

    That's a very different emphasis on the big picture than is found in Mike's thread header, which almost treats Selby as an afterthought. I agree with Curtice.

    Even if you ignore the effect of ULEZ, the big picture is this, taking the three by-elections as a whole:
    In the one by-election that the LDs contested actively, their vote share rose by 28.4%
    In the two by-elections that Labour contested actively, their vote share rose by an average of 13.7%
    The Conservatives contested all three by-elections actively, and their vote share fell by an average of 21%.

    Basically the electorate are voting for the Anyone-But-Conservative candidate best placed to win. That's backed up by the fact that that Labour lost their deposit in one by election and the LDs in two, which signals that tactical voting against the Conservatives is back on a massive scale. HYUFD may have called Uxbridge right, but last night also showed that when he downplays the likelihood of tactical voting he could not be more wrong.


    In 1997 Labour won Selby, the LDs won Somerton and Frome but the Tories held Uxbridge. So the result does show Rishi will at least do no worse than Major did in 1997 rather than the Canada 1993 wipeout Liz was heading for. Still much work to do to get inflation down further though etc

    On the swing from last night's by elections as Bart said last night you would think Sir Ed Davey was heading for PM more than Sir Keir. Sir Keir will decide his Selby win with a Blairite youngster but Uxbridge loss with an inner London candidate due to Khan's ULEZ means he needs to ignore the left even more I suspect
  • TimSTimS Posts: 13,215
    IanB2 said:

    kamski said:

    MattW said:

    Good morning

    Congratulations to @HYUFD who said the conservatives would hold Uxbridge

    Also a lot of humble pie is needed by all those who dismissed ULEZ as an issue

    In the wider context the war against the car is not labour's friend

    I'm still not convinced by ULEZ as an issue in London - in a few outer seats, maybe, and imo not in the mayoral election.

    However it remains that around 90% of vehicles are *already* compliant, so the number of voters actually affected will be very small. Not sure how it will play electorally - we'll see. I don't see it saving Tory bacon - the outraged gammon vote in Outer London is not imo dominant enough.

    Perhaps it's more interesting in the other cities which are introducing Low Emission Zones across the country. Those places where there has not been investment in public transport are perhaps exposed, though there's not a clear correlation.

    This is a 2021 graphic, so it may have changed a little.

    I think it is the first evidence that the war on cars may not play into labour's hands

    It certainly played a part in Uxbridge and already we see calls to move the 2030 deadline for all new cars to be EV and here in Wales we have Drakeford cancelling all new road building, including the 3rd Menai crossing notwithstanding Holyhead is to become a free port, and the ideological change of all 30mph zones in Wales to 20mph by default

    It will be interesting how this plays out over the next 15 months

    Remember what happens when labour ignore WVM
    An urban speed limit of 20 mph in Wales is a lot like ULEZ expansion. It isn't the principle that is wrong, it is the speed and lack of thought in which it is being implemented.

    Transport policy is a disaster nationally. There are too many cars, not enough infrastructure (including alternative transport). Driving anywhere is horrendous, particularly in cities. Now that the current Government in Westminster have learned anti - green, anti- safety issues win votes, it is a situation that will undoubtedly get worse.
    This is the BS.

    Driving anywhere, except a tiny minority of the country in inner cities, is pleasant and convenient. Not horrendous.

    Driving is the most freeing, the most liberating, the most self-controlled means of transportation people have in the modern, developed world.

    Relying upon others, on 'public transportation' is a farce and a pathetic joke outside of a tiny number of metropolises, and it always will be.

    There is absolutely nothing wrong with private transportation. Either environmentally, once we switch to clean technologies, or progressively, or for a matter of convenience.
    Personally, I find driving a car is shit everywhere. A bicycle is way more enjoyable.

    Nothing wrong environmentally if we pretend hard enough.

    I know you like to be the king of wishful thinking, but isn't this a bit much eve for you?
    A bicycle is enjoyable for having fun. It is a social activity.

    When it comes to moving a serious distance, or moving multiple people a distance, or moving a heavy or bulky quantity of goods - nothing comes close to a private vehicle.

    And no pretence necessary. Electric cars are the future, not replacing an eighty mile journey to see relatives with riding a bicycle down the M6.
    Fine, as long as car users are paying their externalities properly. Sone of that is schemes like ULEZ, but it's also that car use makes towns and cities inefficient. You have to put stuff further apart to make room for cars. That makes services more expensive to provide and someone has to pick up the tab.

    I've mentioned this group before, small state Americans really unkeen on extensive car provision:

    https://www.strongtowns.org/about
    Cars make towns far, far more efficient. Getting about towns at 30-40mph is much faster than walking around town at 3-4mph.
    And yet it's public transport that seems to make cities productive:

    https://www.tomforth.co.uk/birminghamisasmallcity/

    So. Do you want Britain to be rich? Do you want it enough to use you car less and other types of transport more?

    You two seem to be missing that ULEZ is about the type of car (/vehicle), not about car use per se.
    ULEZ also seems to be a case of this being the absolute peak of public disquiet and outrage about it, and in the absolute peak location. A bit like the timing of the Brexit vote at an absolute peak in voter concern over immigration.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,468

    kamski said:

    MattW said:

    Good morning

    Congratulations to @HYUFD who said the conservatives would hold Uxbridge

    Also a lot of humble pie is needed by all those who dismissed ULEZ as an issue

    In the wider context the war against the car is not labour's friend

    I'm still not convinced by ULEZ as an issue in London - in a few outer seats, maybe, and imo not in the mayoral election.

    However it remains that around 90% of vehicles are *already* compliant, so the number of voters actually affected will be very small. Not sure how it will play electorally - we'll see. I don't see it saving Tory bacon - the outraged gammon vote in Outer London is not imo dominant enough.

    Perhaps it's more interesting in the other cities which are introducing Low Emission Zones across the country. Those places where there has not been investment in public transport are perhaps exposed, though there's not a clear correlation.

    This is a 2021 graphic, so it may have changed a little.

    I think it is the first evidence that the war on cars may not play into labour's hands

    It certainly played a part in Uxbridge and already we see calls to move the 2030 deadline for all new cars to be EV and here in Wales we have Drakeford cancelling all new road building, including the 3rd Menai crossing notwithstanding Holyhead is to become a free port, and the ideological change of all 30mph zones in Wales to 20mph by default

    It will be interesting how this plays out over the next 15 months

    Remember what happens when labour ignore WVM
    An urban speed limit of 20 mph in Wales is a lot like ULEZ expansion. It isn't the principle that is wrong, it is the speed and lack of thought in which it is being implemented.

    Transport policy is a disaster nationally. There are too many cars, not enough infrastructure (including alternative transport). Driving anywhere is horrendous, particularly in cities. Now that the current Government in Westminster have learned anti - green, anti- safety issues win votes, it is a situation that will undoubtedly get worse.
    This is the BS.

    Driving anywhere, except a tiny minority of the country in inner cities, is pleasant and convenient. Not horrendous.

    Driving is the most freeing, the most liberating, the most self-controlled means of transportation people have in the modern, developed world.

    Relying upon others, on 'public transportation' is a farce and a pathetic joke outside of a tiny number of metropolises, and it always will be.

    There is absolutely nothing wrong with private transportation. Either environmentally, once we switch to clean technologies, or progressively, or for a matter of convenience.
    Personally, I find driving a car is shit everywhere. A bicycle is way more enjoyable.

    Nothing wrong environmentally if we pretend hard enough.

    I know you like to be the king of wishful thinking, but isn't this a bit much eve for you?
    A bicycle is enjoyable for having fun. It is a social activity.

    When it comes to moving a serious distance, or moving multiple people a distance, or moving a heavy or bulky quantity of goods - nothing comes close to a private vehicle.

    And no pretence necessary. Electric cars are the future, not replacing an eighty mile journey to see relatives with riding a bicycle down the M6.
    Fine, as long as car users are paying their externalities properly. Sone of that is schemes like ULEZ, but it's also that car use makes towns and cities inefficient. You have to put stuff further apart to make room for cars. That makes services more expensive to provide and someone has to pick up the tab.

    I've mentioned this group before, small state Americans really unkeen on extensive car provision:

    https://www.strongtowns.org/about
    Cars make towns far, far more efficient. Getting about towns at 30-40mph is much faster than walking around town at 3-4mph.
    And yet it's public transport that seems to make cities productive:

    https://www.tomforth.co.uk/birminghamisasmallcity/

    So. Do you want Britain to be rich? Do you want it enough to use you car less and other types of transport more?

    Starting with your desire and working backwards again I see. Now jumping from town to city trying desperately to grasp onto a point.

    Yes I want Britain to be rich.

    No I won't use my car less and less productive and less convenient modes of transportation more. Next question please.
    Shame. I thought you were more into prosperity and economic rationality than that.

    Yes, cars can travel faster. Quite a lot of the time. But those gains in speed get swallowed up- and then some- by the increased distances you have to build into your towns and cities to make cars work in them.
This discussion has been closed.