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The next government – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 11,792
edited July 2023 in General
imageThe next government – politicalbetting.com

Smarkets have this market up on the type of government formed after the next election. For those who still have doubts about if Starmer will win a majority given the level of gains he needs to win a majority. There may well be some value in here, though I would advise reading the terms and conditions.

Read the full story here

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  • Options
    HeathenerHeathener Posts: 6,216
    edited July 2023
    Good morning.

    My week in Surrey has been lovely. I've been staying with my friend, who has never voted anything other than Conservative.

    We didn't need to have any arguments because she had nothing good to say about them. For the first time in her life 'as things currently stand she would not vote Conservative.'

    It's an anecdote, of course, and the polls tell us that the Party is still polling in the high 20's. But if they are losing people like her then this is going to be worse than 1997.

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    Twickbait_55Twickbait_55 Posts: 116
    I'm still thinking a moderate, but perfectly workable Lab majority of around 50 or so, with them picking up some seemingly surprising seats (the likes of the Worthing's, Bournemouth, a few in Kent, a few in the South West, a good smattering of Home Counties towns, lots of red wall seats). The Libs will likely pick up the more conservative seats in not dissimilar areas where they hold strong second place's or have past history. The SNP seem very likely to lose up to half their seats.
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    Twickbait_55Twickbait_55 Posts: 116
    A very interesting article that clearly shows part of the Cons problem in the coming election https://patrickenglish.substack.com/p/early-elections-and-mortgage-madness
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 64,091
    How Marjorie Taylor Greene’s district became Biden’s climate poster child
    Rep. Marjorie Taylor Greene’s deep-red district is part of the Biden administration’s best bet for keeping the president’s signature climate law in place.
    https://www.politico.com/news/2023/07/11/marjorie-taylor-greene-district-climate-biden-00104848
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    HeathenerHeathener Posts: 6,216
    I by no means rule out a sub-100 seat tory result.

    The conditions are FAR worse than 1997 when, despite Black Wednesday five years previously, the economy was in good shape.

    This time the Conservatives have trashed their brand AND presided over increasing financial turmoil. I do agree with that article in that once you touch people's homes, even if only by implied threat, you're in deep trouble.
  • Options
    HeathenerHeathener Posts: 6,216
    edited July 2023
    Anyway, I'm tootling back to the South west. From one marginal Surrey seat to another marginal Devon seat.

    The state of things.
  • Options
    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 34,332
    Just as a blind pig may from time to time stumble upon an acorn, so a buffoon may on occasion inadvertently enjoy a moment of piercing clarity.

    And so it was that, in July 2023, Angus Brendan MacNeil did the nation an unusual, rare, service and blurted out a truth of the sort that is universally recognised but generally left unspoken: the SNP currently has no idea about how it may advance the cause of Scottish independence.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/angus-brendan-macneil-has-inadvertantly-done-the-nationa-service-6xrjnjcsv
  • Options
    noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 21,314
    Nigelb said:

    How Marjorie Taylor Greene’s district became Biden’s climate poster child
    Rep. Marjorie Taylor Greene’s deep-red district is part of the Biden administration’s best bet for keeping the president’s signature climate law in place.
    https://www.politico.com/news/2023/07/11/marjorie-taylor-greene-district-climate-biden-00104848

    Greene by name, green by nature!
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    FishingFishing Posts: 4,591
    Heathener said:

    I by no means rule out a sub-100 seat tory result.

    The conditions are FAR worse than 1997 when, despite Black Wednesday five years previously, the economy was in good shape.

    This time the Conservatives have trashed their brand AND presided over increasing financial turmoil. I do agree with that article in that once you touch people's homes, even if only by implied threat, you're in deep trouble.

    Also in the 90s the Conservatives were pursuing Conservative policies, so at least their 32% core vote turned out for them. This time, they're pursuing Brownite policies, so even their core vote might think they might as well stay at home.

    The only thing the Conservatives have going for them at the moment is that Starmer has no charisma or convinving answers to the country's problems. That might just be enough to prevent complete calamity.
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 115,327
    Get rid of the monarchy, they cause recessions.

    The UK economy shrank by 0.1% in May, partly down to the extra bank holiday for the King's Coronation.

    This followed growth of 0.2% in April, the Office for National Statistics (ONS) said.

    The manufacturing and construction sectors fell in May as some industries were hit by there being one fewer working day than normal.

    It comes as the cost of living and rising interest rates continue to put pressure on households and businesses.

    The ONS said the UK economy had shown "no growth" for the three months to May.


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-66179998
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 115,327
    Have we done this?

    The Sun claims tonight it "never alleged criminality" and blames other media for "reading too much" into its reporting. Like yesterday's Sun story (still on website) saying the BBC figure "could be charged by cops & face years in prison."



    https://twitter.com/arusbridger/status/1679227488155598848/photo/2
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 64,091

    Have we done this?

    The Sun claims tonight it "never alleged criminality" and blames other media for "reading too much" into its reporting. Like yesterday's Sun story (still on website) saying the BBC figure "could be charged by cops & face years in prison."



    https://twitter.com/arusbridger/status/1679227488155598848/photo/2

    Yes.
    To say they're disingenuous would be extremely generous. And this is not an organisation which deserves generosity.
  • Options

    Have we done this?

    The Sun claims tonight it "never alleged criminality" and blames other media for "reading too much" into its reporting. Like yesterday's Sun story (still on website) saying the BBC figure "could be charged by cops & face years in prison."



    https://twitter.com/arusbridger/status/1679227488155598848/photo/2

    Who’s the expert?

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    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 34,332
    @SamCoatesSky
    EXC: IPSA announce investigation into the Tory Northern Research Group after Sky News Westminster Accounts investigation into public money payments

    With
    @TomLarkinSky

    @EdClowes

    @_BvdM


    Read: https://news.sky.com/story/westminster-accounts-powerful-group-of-tory-mps-scrutinised-by-expenses-watchdog-after-sky-news-investigation-12919851

    This is a statement by IPSA

    https://twitter.com/SamCoatesSky/status/1679381866900606983?s=20
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 50,728

    Have we done this?

    The Sun claims tonight it "never alleged criminality" and blames other media for "reading too much" into its reporting. Like yesterday's Sun story (still on website) saying the BBC figure "could be charged by cops & face years in prison."

    img src="https://us.v-cdn.net/5020679/uploads/editor/3f/hcwz1agy86dx.png" alt="" />

    https://twitter.com/arusbridger/status/1679227488155598848/photo/2

    Surely that’s the newspaper reporting what someone else said?
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    HeathenerHeathener Posts: 6,216
    Fishing said:

    Heathener said:

    I by no means rule out a sub-100 seat tory result.

    The conditions are FAR worse than 1997 when, despite Black Wednesday five years previously, the economy was in good shape.

    This time the Conservatives have trashed their brand AND presided over increasing financial turmoil. I do agree with that article in that once you touch people's homes, even if only by implied threat, you're in deep trouble.

    [...]

    The only thing the Conservatives have going for them at the moment is that Starmer has no charisma or convinving answers to the country's problems. That might just be enough to prevent complete calamity.
    Agree with the first half of your message and wanted to add something about this bit which I've snipped on Starmer, which is again anecdotal.

    My tory friend said that although she doesn't particularly like Rachel Reeves she thinks Keir Starmer may be good. 'He's dull and steady and perhaps that's just what we need after everything.'

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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 68,273

    Have we done this?

    The Sun claims tonight it "never alleged criminality" and blames other media for "reading too much" into its reporting. Like yesterday's Sun story (still on website) saying the BBC figure "could be charged by cops & face years in prison."



    https://twitter.com/arusbridger/status/1679227488155598848/photo/2

    Who’s the expert?

    Well, Rupert Murdoch himself has quite a lot of experience of indecent pictures of 16 year olds.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,118
    Good morning, everyone.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/66174418

    Women's football wibble:
    "On proposals to provide one source of funding from levelling FA Cup prize money across the men's and women's game, she added: "I'd hope there would not be a backlash.

    "There are so many issues and women's sport has struggled for so long I'd hope there'd be an understanding but with anything there'll always be someone who will challenge it.

    "I could have said equalise prize money right now but that would have taken down the pyramid of men's football. We should absolutely be going for equal prize money [in the future] from the FA Cup and the FA should be putting a timescale on that.""

    Prize money is a consequence of revenue and income generated. It's not given to the men because they're men, but because men's football is a massive sport. And while women's football has grown a lot lately, it's nowhere near in the same league. When women can generate the same revenue, they'll deserve the same prize money. When they generate more than the men, they'll deserve more prize money than the men.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 68,273

    Have we done this?

    The Sun claims tonight it "never alleged criminality" and blames other media for "reading too much" into its reporting. Like yesterday's Sun story (still on website) saying the BBC figure "could be charged by cops & face years in prison."



    https://twitter.com/arusbridger/status/1679227488155598848/photo/2

    That is possibly the most unconvincing lie since Dominic Cummings said he went to Durham because he couldn't get childcare in London.
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 56,919
    Heathener said:

    Anyway, I'm tootling back to the South west. From one marginal Surrey seat to another marginal Devon seat.

    The state of things.

    So you're working mid-week in a variety of marginal seats before schools have broken up?

    That's interesting.
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    148grss148grss Posts: 3,919
    Sandpit said:

    Have we done this?

    The Sun claims tonight it "never alleged criminality" and blames other media for "reading too much" into its reporting. Like yesterday's Sun story (still on website) saying the BBC figure "could be charged by cops & face years in prison."

    img src="https://us.v-cdn.net/5020679/uploads/editor/3f/hcwz1agy86dx.png" alt="" />

    https://twitter.com/arusbridger/status/1679227488155598848/photo/2

    Surely that’s the newspaper reporting what someone else said?
    The newspaper that probably sought out that specific expert because they would give that opinion, after publishing a story in a specific manner as to insinuate criminal wrong doing despite having clear testimony from the individual involved that their framing was wrong.

    Also: why the hell do we have to give the goddamn Sun the benefit of the doubt here? Their reputation is trash. They are one of the most homophobic publications in the UK, they themselves published sexual photos of 16 year olds in the last decade, they clearly are not good actors here. So why all the bending backwards to treat them like a respectable journalistic institution?

    It's clear what happened - BBC presenter has affairs (we still don't know if it was with his wife's knowledge or not) and likely paid the people he had affairs with, either because they were sex workers or because he wanted his name kept out of the press. He seemed to bit cringey and needy, and seems to have been pretty angry when one of these people suggested they could out him (a typical reaction, if still potentially not a great one), but everyone seems to have been a consenting adult. The Sun, finding out about this story and using the framing of the parents of one of the people the BBC presenter had an affair with, specifically conflated the presenter first meeting this young person at 17 with the exchange of potentially sexual pictures, and then dug around for any other misdeeds to make that seem like a reasonable story to run. And over a week of trying to deal with the story, much of the public discourse is about how this BBC presenter was a paedo, how the BBC is a hive of child abusers, and how the BBC should be burnt to the ground.

    In any reasonable country this would put the Sun out of business - but I doubt anything will happen to it. Hell, barely any politicians and only a few journalists have actively said that the Sun have some serious explaining to do. And the Sun will do it again. Whether it was to just sell papers, or if those people who have been made so cynical by the right wing press' relationships with politicians are correct that this was a dead cat to cover up bad stories for Johnson or whoever, the Sun will do all this again and continue to make money off of it and people will shake their heads and say how sad it is and our politicians will do nothing because one old rich guy can command so much of what print media says about you that it is too politically harmful to do anything about it. It's obscene.
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 115,327

    Heathener said:

    Anyway, I'm tootling back to the South west. From one marginal Surrey seat to another marginal Devon seat.

    The state of things.

    So you're working mid-week in a variety of marginal seats before schools have broken up?

    That's interesting.
    Did they take their flask though?

    That’s what I really want to know.
  • Options
    Sandpit said:

    Have we done this?

    The Sun claims tonight it "never alleged criminality" and blames other media for "reading too much" into its reporting. Like yesterday's Sun story (still on website) saying the BBC figure "could be charged by cops & face years in prison."

    img src="https://us.v-cdn.net/5020679/uploads/editor/3f/hcwz1agy86dx.png" alt="" />

    https://twitter.com/arusbridger/status/1679227488155598848/photo/2

    Surely that’s the newspaper reporting what someone else said?
    Based on their reporting that a BBC reporter 'paid child for sex photos' as they've put it in quotation marks.

    Had their reporting been genuine, it could indeed have been a criminal offence that could lead to prison.

    Since the Police have investigated and found no crime was committed, that doesn't question what the expert says, it questions the reporting that Edwards allegedly "paid child for sex photos".
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 64,091
    Sandpit said:

    Have we done this?

    The Sun claims tonight it "never alleged criminality" and blames other media for "reading too much" into its reporting. Like yesterday's Sun story (still on website) saying the BBC figure "could be charged by cops & face years in prison."

    img src="https://us.v-cdn.net/5020679/uploads/editor/3f/hcwz1agy86dx.png" alt="" />

    https://twitter.com/arusbridger/status/1679227488155598848/photo/2

    Surely that’s the newspaper reporting what someone else said?
    So what ?
    Why would they be doing that, when the police have said, explicitly, that there is no evidence of criminality ?
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    state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,546
    ydoethur said:

    Have we done this?

    The Sun claims tonight it "never alleged criminality" and blames other media for "reading too much" into its reporting. Like yesterday's Sun story (still on website) saying the BBC figure "could be charged by cops & face years in prison."



    https://twitter.com/arusbridger/status/1679227488155598848/photo/2

    That is possibly the most unconvincing lie since Dominic Cummings said he went to Durham because he couldn't get childcare in London.
    also the most ironic given the sun used to also pay for sex pictures of teens to put on page 3
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 50,728

    Good morning, everyone.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/66174418

    Women's football wibble:
    "On proposals to provide one source of funding from levelling FA Cup prize money across the men's and women's game, she added: "I'd hope there would not be a backlash.

    "There are so many issues and women's sport has struggled for so long I'd hope there'd be an understanding but with anything there'll always be someone who will challenge it.

    "I could have said equalise prize money right now but that would have taken down the pyramid of men's football. We should absolutely be going for equal prize money [in the future] from the FA Cup and the FA should be putting a timescale on that.""

    Prize money is a consequence of revenue and income generated. It's not given to the men because they're men, but because men's football is a massive sport. And while women's football has grown a lot lately, it's nowhere near in the same league. When women can generate the same revenue, they'll deserve the same prize money. When they generate more than the men, they'll deserve more prize money than the men.

    The actual prize money, as opposed to gate receipts, isn’t a lot of cash.

    https://www.thefa.com/competitions/thefacup/prize-fund

    The FA Prize Fund comes mostly from sales of TV rights to the competition.
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    StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 15,195
    Nigelb said:

    Have we done this?

    The Sun claims tonight it "never alleged criminality" and blames other media for "reading too much" into its reporting. Like yesterday's Sun story (still on website) saying the BBC figure "could be charged by cops & face years in prison."



    https://twitter.com/arusbridger/status/1679227488155598848/photo/2

    Yes.
    To say they're disingenuous would be extremely generous. And this is not an organisation which deserves generosity.
    It's true that the Sun never actually joined the dots that some readers thought. But they did make it pretty easy for careless readers to do so by accident (ahem) or something. Lawyers and journalists finding ways of phrasing things that imply more than they say is another of those crud economy activities that creates GDP without really adding value to the nation.

    Most reading most of us do most of the time isn't that careful- I'm thinking lawyers reading a document or scientists reading an academic paper. Careful reading isn't morally better, but it is a different thing.

    Questions are whether the Frankie Howerd/Humphrey Lyttleton "I didn't say the bad thing and you have a filthy mind if you think I did" defence holds up in an actual court or the court of public opinion.
  • Options
    RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 27,951
    Heathener said:

    I by no means rule out a sub-100 seat tory result.

    The conditions are FAR worse than 1997 when, despite Black Wednesday five years previously, the economy was in good shape.

    This time the Conservatives have trashed their brand AND presided over increasing financial turmoil. I do agree with that article in that once you touch people's homes, even if only by implied threat, you're in deep trouble.

    The question of course is that if the Tories are to fall that low, to whom will they be losing those seats? Labour surely can't pick up some of the seats where they don't exist on the ground (such as the new Aberdeenshire North / Moray east seat) and yet some forecasts show that

    I can see them lose a stack of seats, but not as many as dropping to just 100. Yes of course it's possible, it just feels extraordinary unlikely. No matter how egregiously unpopular and awful they are - and they truly are - unless the alternative clearly has a plan (as Tony Blair did) I just can't see it happening on that scale
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 64,091
    ydoethur said:

    Have we done this?

    The Sun claims tonight it "never alleged criminality" and blames other media for "reading too much" into its reporting. Like yesterday's Sun story (still on website) saying the BBC figure "could be charged by cops & face years in prison."



    https://twitter.com/arusbridger/status/1679227488155598848/photo/2

    Who’s the expert?

    Well, Rupert Murdoch himself has quite a lot of experience of indecent pictures of 16 year olds.
    And making money off them.
    Why senior politicians are still paying court to the old slimeball is beyond me.
  • Options
    ydoethur said:

    Have we done this?

    The Sun claims tonight it "never alleged criminality" and blames other media for "reading too much" into its reporting. Like yesterday's Sun story (still on website) saying the BBC figure "could be charged by cops & face years in prison."



    https://twitter.com/arusbridger/status/1679227488155598848/photo/2

    Who’s the expert?

    Well, Rupert Murdoch himself has quite a lot of experience of indecent pictures of 16 year olds.
    The Sun of the past deserves a lot of criticism, but more for the way its hateful and does false reporting, just as it still does. See eg Hillsborough etc, which is why Liverpool has the right idea with the Sun.

    Page 3 photos of 16 year olds were legal at the time it was done, the law has subsequently changed.

    Of all the things to criticise the Sun for, its history with Page 3 is round about the bottom of the list.
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    state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,546
    this huw edwards thing - i sorta get why its newsworthy to an extent in a mawkish way but like the Schofield episode please dont let it dominate news with hangers-on pretending its really important - that really would show society is declining if this is actually considered important in the national scheme of things - humans do silly ,cringeworthy things especially around sex . Its not really news
  • Options
    RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 27,951

    Have we done this?

    The Sun claims tonight it "never alleged criminality" and blames other media for "reading too much" into its reporting. Like yesterday's Sun story (still on website) saying the BBC figure "could be charged by cops & face years in prison."



    https://twitter.com/arusbridger/status/1679227488155598848/photo/2

    As I said last night, the S*n used "child" and "sex" in direct description of the alleged crime. They tried to paint him as a nonce based on something they knew not to be true when they published it.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 50,728
    Nigelb said:

    ydoethur said:

    Have we done this?

    The Sun claims tonight it "never alleged criminality" and blames other media for "reading too much" into its reporting. Like yesterday's Sun story (still on website) saying the BBC figure "could be charged by cops & face years in prison."



    https://twitter.com/arusbridger/status/1679227488155598848/photo/2

    Who’s the expert?

    Well, Rupert Murdoch himself has quite a lot of experience of indecent pictures of 16 year olds.
    And making money off them.
    Why senior politicians are still paying court to the old slimeball is beyond me.
    IMHO any newspaper would have run with that story, if it had landed on their desk.

    From watching the BBC’s own reporting on the subject, including notes that two employees have come forward with details of incidents of sexual harrasment, it’s pretty clear that it was common knowledge within the media industry that this guy was a bit of a wrong’un, and was being protected by the higher echelons at the Corporation.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 68,273

    ydoethur said:

    Have we done this?

    The Sun claims tonight it "never alleged criminality" and blames other media for "reading too much" into its reporting. Like yesterday's Sun story (still on website) saying the BBC figure "could be charged by cops & face years in prison."



    https://twitter.com/arusbridger/status/1679227488155598848/photo/2

    Who’s the expert?

    Well, Rupert Murdoch himself has quite a lot of experience of indecent pictures of 16 year olds.
    The Sun of the past deserves a lot of criticism, but more for the way its hateful and does false reporting, just as it still does. See eg Hillsborough etc, which is why Liverpool has the right idea with the Sun.

    Page 3 photos of 16 year olds were legal at the time it was done, the law has subsequently changed.

    Of all the things to criticise the Sun for, its history with Page 3 is round about the bottom of the list.
    Can we all agree the whole thing is a series of clusterFox?
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    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,124
    Some good news for the Tories - with their championing of Lee Anderson, their criminalisation of women trafficked to the UK to be sex slaves and their painting over of murals for child refugees, they are almost certainly tying down the all-important morally depraved psychopathic section of the voting demographic
  • Options
    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 26,018

    this huw edwards thing - i sorta get why its newsworthy to an extent in a mawkish way but like the Schofield episode please dont let it dominate news with hangers-on pretending its really important - that really would show society is declining if this is actually considered important in the national scheme of things - humans do silly ,cringeworthy things especially around sex . Its not really news

    I think this is about where I am with it all.
  • Options

    Have we done this?

    The Sun claims tonight it "never alleged criminality" and blames other media for "reading too much" into its reporting. Like yesterday's Sun story (still on website) saying the BBC figure "could be charged by cops & face years in prison."



    https://twitter.com/arusbridger/status/1679227488155598848/photo/2

    As I said last night, the S*n used "child" and "sex" in direct description of the alleged crime. They tried to paint him as a nonce based on something they knew not to be true when they published it.
    As I said they alleged that indecent images were paid for "since 17", that is a crime as 17 is a child under the law for that.

    No amount of weasel words gets out of that. They alleged a crime, when none was committed. They've crossed the line.

    The only defence I think they could have is if they had a genuine good faith reason to report the alleged lawbreaking, eg the parents statement, but for them to now pretend no crime was alleged is just patently false.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 50,728
    edited July 2023
    . Duplicate
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 68,273

    Some good news for the Tories - with their championing of Lee Anderson, their criminalisation of women trafficked to the UK to be sex slaves and their painting over of murals for child refugees, they are almost certainly tying down the all-important morally depraved psychopathic section of the voting demographic

    I don't think they've convinced Lloyd Russell-Moyle yet, so still some way to go.
  • Options

    Nigelb said:

    Have we done this?

    The Sun claims tonight it "never alleged criminality" and blames other media for "reading too much" into its reporting. Like yesterday's Sun story (still on website) saying the BBC figure "could be charged by cops & face years in prison."



    https://twitter.com/arusbridger/status/1679227488155598848/photo/2

    Yes.
    To say they're disingenuous would be extremely generous. And this is not an organisation which deserves generosity.
    It's true that the Sun never actually joined the dots that some readers thought. But they did make it pretty easy for careless readers to do so by accident (ahem) or something. Lawyers and journalists finding ways of phrasing things that imply more than they say is another of those crud economy activities that creates GDP without really adding value to the nation.

    Most reading most of us do most of the time isn't that careful- I'm thinking lawyers reading a document or scientists reading an academic paper. Careful reading isn't morally better, but it is a different thing.

    Questions are whether the Frankie Howerd/Humphrey Lyttleton "I didn't say the bad thing and you have a filthy mind if you think I did" defence holds up in an actual court or the court of public opinion.
    They specifically alleged that photos were paid for "since 17" - since the age where photos are lawful is 18, they specifically alleged a crime on that. No dots needed to be joined.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 64,091
    edited July 2023

    ydoethur said:

    Have we done this?

    The Sun claims tonight it "never alleged criminality" and blames other media for "reading too much" into its reporting. Like yesterday's Sun story (still on website) saying the BBC figure "could be charged by cops & face years in prison."



    https://twitter.com/arusbridger/status/1679227488155598848/photo/2

    Who’s the expert?

    Well, Rupert Murdoch himself has quite a lot of experience of indecent pictures of 16 year olds.
    The Sun of the past deserves a lot of criticism, but more for the way its hateful and does false reporting, just as it still does. See eg Hillsborough etc, which is why Liverpool has the right idea with the Sun.

    Page 3 photos of 16 year olds were legal at the time it was done, the law has subsequently changed.

    Of all the things to criticise the Sun for, its history with Page 3 is round about the bottom of the list.
    Is it ?
    Given that it's now claiming there was never any question if its alleging criminality, the justification for the prominence of the story is effectively public morality.
    Questioning its status as an arbiter of any such thing seems fairly reasonable to me.
  • Options
    rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,983
    It does seem to be challenging to develop laws which can stop the Sun lying, but still enable Private Eye to do investigative journalism.
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    JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,061
    Interesting @Heathener posts. The Tories are in a bind. Their latest leader is politically tone deaf and they need a wizard to polish their record. They can’t go into the election promising change or “more of the same”. They have driven themselves into a cul-de-sac. The only thing they have left right now is residual tribal loyalty. The economy cannot bear tax cuts and they keep recycling the same cuts of red meat. They stand for nothing apart from themselves.
  • Options
    boulayboulay Posts: 4,591

    Good morning, everyone.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/66174418

    Women's football wibble:
    "On proposals to provide one source of funding from levelling FA Cup prize money across the men's and women's game, she added: "I'd hope there would not be a backlash.

    "There are so many issues and women's sport has struggled for so long I'd hope there'd be an understanding but with anything there'll always be someone who will challenge it.

    "I could have said equalise prize money right now but that would have taken down the pyramid of men's football. We should absolutely be going for equal prize money [in the future] from the FA Cup and the FA should be putting a timescale on that.""

    Prize money is a consequence of revenue and income generated. It's not given to the men because they're men, but because men's football is a massive sport. And while women's football has grown a lot lately, it's nowhere near in the same league. When women can generate the same revenue, they'll deserve the same prize money. When they generate more than the men, they'll deserve more prize money than the men.

    Agreed, I think Women’s football has got a bit high on its own supply. If you compare quality and revenue it comes below other tiers of the men’s game. We just had the Euro men under 21’s team win which wasn’t shown by UK broadcasters (you had to sign up to the evil empire that is UEFA if you wanted to try bad streaming on their site) until England got to the final and Channel 4 jumped in.

    The men under 21s is the second highest quality level of international football played and yet there would be on the same day one match roundup in the guardian compared to a number of articles on Women’s football. The players involved in the Men under 21s were virtually all premier league players so not just the kids at a low quality.

    There would have been a shitstorm of epic proportions if a women’s senior tournament had not been on UK terrestrial tv.

    The media push every large crowd at a women’s match but fail to add that the tickets are sold very cheaply and the usual crowds are lower than the second tier of men’s football.

    The Women’s game also piggybacks off the men’s game by mirroring the men’s teams and the resources developed by those teams - so for example Liverpool just bought back their old Melwood training ground for their women’s team and juniors to train at. If Doncaster Belles hadn’t been forced out by money then there is no way they could generate the revenue to buy a major training base.

    So when supporters of the women’s game start demanding equal pay to men they need to think about it and make their game attractive enough, high enough quality and lucrative enough to justify it - if it is as great as it’s pushers insist then they should have no problem selling tickets at a higher price and filling grounds to the same level as the men’s game.

    They have an opportunity to do this - change their season dates, create their own competitions and formats and make it a standalone attraction but they seem to want the comfort of association with the men’s game when it’s good for them but not accept their limitations finanacially as lower tier teams and leagues in the men’s do.
  • Options
    ChrisChris Posts: 11,363

    Sandpit said:

    Have we done this?

    The Sun claims tonight it "never alleged criminality" and blames other media for "reading too much" into its reporting. Like yesterday's Sun story (still on website) saying the BBC figure "could be charged by cops & face years in prison."

    img src="https://us.v-cdn.net/5020679/uploads/editor/3f/hcwz1agy86dx.png" alt="" />

    https://twitter.com/arusbridger/status/1679227488155598848/photo/2

    Surely that’s the newspaper reporting what someone else said?
    Based on their reporting that a BBC reporter 'paid child for sex photos' as they've put it in quotation marks.

    Had their reporting been genuine, it could indeed have been a criminal offence that could lead to prison.

    Since the Police have investigated and found no crime was committed, that doesn't question what the expert says, it questions the reporting that Edwards allegedly "paid child for sex photos".
    The version of the Sun report that I read ran together a statement about how much money was alleged to have been paid over the whole period (which allegedly began when the "child" was 17), with a statement about a particular alleged payment, which was specifically alleged to have been for images.

    I have been presuming that people read these together and took away the notion that images had been involved from the time the "child" was 17. However, apparently the Sun "updated" the story at some point, and I'm not sure whether what I saw was the original.
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,118
    edited July 2023
    Mr. Boulay, I largely agree but would that women's football also has the problem all other sports in the UK and much of Europe face: men's football is the biggest game in town by a bloody mile. Achieving equal income/revenue/pay would be an astonishing feat.

    I agree on the high on its own supply comment too, which is encouraged by the media giving it more coverage than support would suggest is reasonable on its own (I get why they start with men's football, then women's, then move to other sports, but women's football on its own is well behind many other sports).
  • Options
    state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,546
    edited July 2023
    boulay said:

    Good morning, everyone.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/66174418

    Women's football wibble:
    "On proposals to provide one source of funding from levelling FA Cup prize money across the men's and women's game, she added: "I'd hope there would not be a backlash.

    "There are so many issues and women's sport has struggled for so long I'd hope there'd be an understanding but with anything there'll always be someone who will challenge it.

    "I could have said equalise prize money right now but that would have taken down the pyramid of men's football. We should absolutely be going for equal prize money [in the future] from the FA Cup and the FA should be putting a timescale on that.""

    Prize money is a consequence of revenue and income generated. It's not given to the men because they're men, but because men's football is a massive sport. And while women's football has grown a lot lately, it's nowhere near in the same league. When women can generate the same revenue, they'll deserve the same prize money. When they generate more than the men, they'll deserve more prize money than the men.

    Agreed, I think Women’s football has got a bit high on its own supply. If you compare quality and revenue it comes below other tiers of the men’s game. We just had the Euro men under 21’s team win which wasn’t shown by UK broadcasters (you had to sign up to the evil empire that is UEFA if you wanted to try bad streaming on their site) until England got to the final and Channel 4 jumped in.

    The men under 21s is the second highest quality level of international football played and yet there would be on the same day one match roundup in the guardian compared to a number of articles on Women’s football. The players involved in the Men under 21s were virtually all premier league players so not just the kids at a low quality.

    There would have been a shitstorm of epic proportions if a women’s senior tournament had not been on UK terrestrial tv.

    The media push every large crowd at a women’s match but fail to add that the tickets are sold very cheaply and the usual crowds are lower than the second tier of men’s football.

    The Women’s game also piggybacks off the men’s game by mirroring the men’s teams and the resources developed by those teams - so for example Liverpool just bought back their old Melwood training ground for their women’s team and juniors to train at. If Doncaster Belles hadn’t been forced out by money then there is no way they could generate the revenue to buy a major training base.

    So when supporters of the women’s game start demanding equal pay to men they need to think about it and make their game attractive enough, high enough quality and lucrative enough to justify it - if it is as great as it’s pushers insist then they should have no problem selling tickets at a higher price and filling grounds to the same level as the men’s game.

    They have an opportunity to do this - change their season dates, create their own competitions and formats and make it a standalone attraction but they seem to want the comfort of association with the men’s game when it’s good for them but not accept their limitations finanacially as lower tier teams and leagues in the men’s do.
    Wrexham played the US womens national team recently and won easing up 12-0. The scoreline was not really surprising or a reflection on the womans game but it was surprising to see many in the US team big themselves up before the game and seemingly be shocked they got thrashed. Whilst this game was done on the back of the publicity Wrexham have enjoyed in the USA due to the media show and celebrity backing its only use may be to show there really is a big difference in men and womens sport and transgender atheltes really cannot compete in womens events
  • Options

    Good morning, everyone.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/66174418

    Women's football wibble:
    "On proposals to provide one source of funding from levelling FA Cup prize money across the men's and women's game, she added: "I'd hope there would not be a backlash.

    "There are so many issues and women's sport has struggled for so long I'd hope there'd be an understanding but with anything there'll always be someone who will challenge it.

    "I could have said equalise prize money right now but that would have taken down the pyramid of men's football. We should absolutely be going for equal prize money [in the future] from the FA Cup and the FA should be putting a timescale on that.""

    Prize money is a consequence of revenue and income generated. It's not given to the men because they're men, but because men's football is a massive sport. And while women's football has grown a lot lately, it's nowhere near in the same league. When women can generate the same revenue, they'll deserve the same prize money. When they generate more than the men, they'll deserve more prize money than the men.

    The sport where I found it most ridiculous that there was a great furore about equalising men's and women's prize money was tennis. The women's game in tennis is a sport that generates a lot of attention, but while equalising the payouts they didn't change the fact that men's grand slam tennis is best of 5 sets, while women's is best of 3 sets.

    So each women's match in a grand slam can be over in about an hour, while a men's match can take 5 hours and often spill into a second day.

    Women's grand slam tennis should be best of 5 sets IMHO.
  • Options
    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,124
    ydoethur said:

    Some good news for the Tories - with their championing of Lee Anderson, their criminalisation of women trafficked to the UK to be sex slaves and their painting over of murals for child refugees, they are almost certainly tying down the all-important morally depraved psychopathic section of the voting demographic

    I don't think they've convinced Lloyd Russell-Moyle yet, so still some way to go.
    There will always be hold-outs. Hell, some old people even vote Labour!

  • Options
    148grss148grss Posts: 3,919

    Have we done this?

    The Sun claims tonight it "never alleged criminality" and blames other media for "reading too much" into its reporting. Like yesterday's Sun story (still on website) saying the BBC figure "could be charged by cops & face years in prison."



    https://twitter.com/arusbridger/status/1679227488155598848/photo/2

    As I said last night, the S*n used "child" and "sex" in direct description of the alleged crime. They tried to paint him as a nonce based on something they knew not to be true when they published it.
    As I said they alleged that indecent images were paid for "since 17", that is a crime as 17 is a child under the law for that.

    No amount of weasel words gets out of that. They alleged a crime, when none was committed. They've crossed the line.

    The only defence I think they could have is if they had a genuine good faith reason to report the alleged lawbreaking, eg the parents statement, but for them to now pretend no crime was alleged is just patently false.
    There are journalistic standards. It is not news if two people, sans evidence, suggest someone did those things.

    If I just said "I know a 17 yo who says they sold pictures to @BartholomewRoberts, so they are a nonce" is that a reasonable statement to suggest is believable based on that statement alone? The Sun never claimed to see any evidence, just the testimony of the mother and step dad. The young person disagreed with the framing and contacted the Sun to say so - the Sun didn't even just put that at the end of their story as a disclaimer (likely because if they did it would be obvious what a non front page story this was).

    Compare that to the Beeb's follow up report on the second individual; they spoke directly to them, disclosed they had directly seen the messages - both from the individual and the BBC presenter involved - they made clear that the individual was in their early 20s when anything happened and that they met through a dating app, so made clear everything was part of what started as a consensual adult relationship.

    If the conversation was "should a 50-60 year old BBC presenter be paying for relationships with 20 somethings" the Sun would still have had a story, but that's not what they made it. They deliberately conflated the "met at 17" with the "sharing of images" - and then almost immediately walked that back when it became clear that those things didn't happen at the same time.
  • Options
    StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 15,195

    Have we done this?

    The Sun claims tonight it "never alleged criminality" and blames other media for "reading too much" into its reporting. Like yesterday's Sun story (still on website) saying the BBC figure "could be charged by cops & face years in prison."



    https://twitter.com/arusbridger/status/1679227488155598848/photo/2

    As I said last night, the S*n used "child" and "sex" in direct description of the alleged crime. They tried to paint him as a nonce based on something they knew not to be true when they published it.
    As I said they alleged that indecent images were paid for "since 17", that is a crime as 17 is a child under the law for that.

    No amount of weasel words gets out of that. They alleged a crime, when none was committed. They've crossed the line.

    The only defence I think they could have is if they had a genuine good faith reason to report the alleged lawbreaking, eg the parents statement, but for them to now pretend no crime was alleged is just patently false.
    In that case, someone has been damn careless and they're in deep doodoo.

    Mostly, they kept a decent cordon sanitaire between the key phrases. Because tabloid papers have mastered the art of maximising the sizzle from a small sausage.
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 36,276

    Good morning, everyone.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/66174418

    Women's football wibble:
    "On proposals to provide one source of funding from levelling FA Cup prize money across the men's and women's game, she added: "I'd hope there would not be a backlash.

    "There are so many issues and women's sport has struggled for so long I'd hope there'd be an understanding but with anything there'll always be someone who will challenge it.

    "I could have said equalise prize money right now but that would have taken down the pyramid of men's football. We should absolutely be going for equal prize money [in the future] from the FA Cup and the FA should be putting a timescale on that.""

    Prize money is a consequence of revenue and income generated. It's not given to the men because they're men, but because men's football is a massive sport. And while women's football has grown a lot lately, it's nowhere near in the same league. When women can generate the same revenue, they'll deserve the same prize money. When they generate more than the men, they'll deserve more prize money than the men.

    The sport where I found it most ridiculous that there was a great furore about equalising men's and women's prize money was tennis. The women's game in tennis is a sport that generates a lot of attention, but while equalising the payouts they didn't change the fact that men's grand slam tennis is best of 5 sets, while women's is best of 3 sets.

    So each women's match in a grand slam can be over in about an hour, while a men's match can take 5 hours and often spill into a second day.

    Women's grand slam tennis should be best of 5 sets IMHO.
    Womens' tennis, however, is more interesting, as there are fewer aces served.
  • Options
    RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 27,951

    Have we done this?

    The Sun claims tonight it "never alleged criminality" and blames other media for "reading too much" into its reporting. Like yesterday's Sun story (still on website) saying the BBC figure "could be charged by cops & face years in prison."



    https://twitter.com/arusbridger/status/1679227488155598848/photo/2

    As I said last night, the S*n used "child" and "sex" in direct description of the alleged crime. They tried to paint him as a nonce based on something they knew not to be true when they published it.
    As I said they alleged that indecent images were paid for "since 17", that is a crime as 17 is a child under the law for that.

    No amount of weasel words gets out of that. They alleged a crime, when none was committed. They've crossed the line.

    The only defence I think they could have is if they had a genuine good faith reason to report the alleged lawbreaking, eg the parents statement, but for them to now pretend no crime was alleged is just patently false.
    And regardless of what the estranged parents said, the alleged victim told them *before publication* that it was all bullshit.

    They didn't just allege any old crime. They branded him a nonce.
  • Options
    148grss148grss Posts: 3,919

    Nigelb said:

    Have we done this?

    The Sun claims tonight it "never alleged criminality" and blames other media for "reading too much" into its reporting. Like yesterday's Sun story (still on website) saying the BBC figure "could be charged by cops & face years in prison."



    https://twitter.com/arusbridger/status/1679227488155598848/photo/2

    Yes.
    To say they're disingenuous would be extremely generous. And this is not an organisation which deserves generosity.
    It's true that the Sun never actually joined the dots that some readers thought. But they did make it pretty easy for careless readers to do so by accident (ahem) or something. Lawyers and journalists finding ways of phrasing things that imply more than they say is another of those crud economy activities that creates GDP without really adding value to the nation.

    Most reading most of us do most of the time isn't that careful- I'm thinking lawyers reading a document or scientists reading an academic paper. Careful reading isn't morally better, but it is a different thing.

    Questions are whether the Frankie Howerd/Humphrey Lyttleton "I didn't say the bad thing and you have a filthy mind if you think I did" defence holds up in an actual court or the court of public opinion.
    They specifically alleged that photos were paid for "since 17" - since the age where photos are lawful is 18, they specifically alleged a crime on that. No dots needed to be joined.
    Except that since then the Sun has claimed that isn't what was claimed, that the conflation of age and when the photos were sent is all in the readers head. The Sun obviously deliberately wrote the story in a way to conflate those two things when they didn't have the evidence for that.
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 36,276
    rkrkrk said:

    It does seem to be challenging to develop laws which can stop the Sun lying, but still enable Private Eye to do investigative journalism.

    You don't have to like the Sun to conclude that the BBC would be justified in dismissing Huw Edwards.
  • Options
    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,124
    edited July 2023

    Mr. Boulay, I largely agree but would that women's football also has the problem all other sports in the UK and much of Europe face: men's football is the biggest game in town by a bloody mile. Achieving equal income/revenue/pay would be an astonishing feat.

    I agree on the high on its own supply comment too, which is encouraged by the media giving it more coverage than support would suggest is reasonable on its own (I get why they start with men's football, then women's, then move to other sports, but women's football on its own is well behind many other sports).

    I did watch the Euros when England won, but I have zero interest in the club game. I don’t see it ever being more than a minority concern.

  • Options
    148grss said:

    Nigelb said:

    Have we done this?

    The Sun claims tonight it "never alleged criminality" and blames other media for "reading too much" into its reporting. Like yesterday's Sun story (still on website) saying the BBC figure "could be charged by cops & face years in prison."



    https://twitter.com/arusbridger/status/1679227488155598848/photo/2

    Yes.
    To say they're disingenuous would be extremely generous. And this is not an organisation which deserves generosity.
    It's true that the Sun never actually joined the dots that some readers thought. But they did make it pretty easy for careless readers to do so by accident (ahem) or something. Lawyers and journalists finding ways of phrasing things that imply more than they say is another of those crud economy activities that creates GDP without really adding value to the nation.

    Most reading most of us do most of the time isn't that careful- I'm thinking lawyers reading a document or scientists reading an academic paper. Careful reading isn't morally better, but it is a different thing.

    Questions are whether the Frankie Howerd/Humphrey Lyttleton "I didn't say the bad thing and you have a filthy mind if you think I did" defence holds up in an actual court or the court of public opinion.
    They specifically alleged that photos were paid for "since 17" - since the age where photos are lawful is 18, they specifically alleged a crime on that. No dots needed to be joined.
    Except that since then the Sun has claimed that isn't what was claimed, that the conflation of age and when the photos were sent is all in the readers head. The Sun obviously deliberately wrote the story in a way to conflate those two things when they didn't have the evidence for that.
    The words they wrote are the words they wrote. It wasn't in the readers head.

    Being from Merseyside, I've never read the Sun in my life, but from the quotes I've read shared here they specifically alleged in a single sentence that the images were sent "since 17".

    That literally means that it happened at 17. If it started at 20, then "since 17" is just plain false, not inferable.
  • Options
    RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 27,951
    rkrkrk said:

    It does seem to be challenging to develop laws which can stop the Sun lying, but still enable Private Eye to do investigative journalism.

    Two basic principles which make that doable now:
    1. Basic journalism ethics - do not knowingly print lies. PE regularly digs into topics which leave it accused of lying, but I am very clear their team never actively print something they know is false. As the S*n just did
    2. Basic defamation laws. If a media outlet libels you, sue them. I hope Edwards does so to the S*n and they go the way of News of the World. PE is regularly threatened with being sued - most recently by Ben Houchen International Airport and Simon Ding Dong Clarke for their ongoing expose into the Teesport scandal. And yet no litigation follows which suggests the gobshite twins know they would lose.
  • Options
    boulayboulay Posts: 4,591

    Good morning, everyone.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/66174418

    Women's football wibble:
    "On proposals to provide one source of funding from levelling FA Cup prize money across the men's and women's game, she added: "I'd hope there would not be a backlash.

    "There are so many issues and women's sport has struggled for so long I'd hope there'd be an understanding but with anything there'll always be someone who will challenge it.

    "I could have said equalise prize money right now but that would have taken down the pyramid of men's football. We should absolutely be going for equal prize money [in the future] from the FA Cup and the FA should be putting a timescale on that.""

    Prize money is a consequence of revenue and income generated. It's not given to the men because they're men, but because men's football is a massive sport. And while women's football has grown a lot lately, it's nowhere near in the same league. When women can generate the same revenue, they'll deserve the same prize money. When they generate more than the men, they'll deserve more prize money than the men.

    The sport where I found it most ridiculous that there was a great furore about equalising men's and women's prize money was tennis. The women's game in tennis is a sport that generates a lot of attention, but while equalising the payouts they didn't change the fact that men's grand slam tennis is best of 5 sets, while women's is best of 3 sets.

    So each women's match in a grand slam can be over in about an hour, while a men's match can take 5 hours and often spill into a second day.

    Women's grand slam tennis should be best of 5 sets IMHO.
    I used to think that and am sad enough one time to work out the hours played by the men’s winner that year compared to the women’s winner but I think with Tennis the Women’s grand slams are as big a draw as the men and the game being slightly different - style and length of game (and the length possibly allows for a better game in the women’s game) is a good thing so if the women’s game are drawing in the viewers and pushing the tv rights and bringing in the same revenue then I see no issue with prize money being the same.

    The more accurate comparison is outside of grand slams where the LTA and WTA play separate events where there are different levels of prize money related to different levels of interest and therefore ticket sale revenue and broadcasting revenue.
  • Options
    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,392
    Heathener said:

    Good morning.

    My week in Surrey has been lovely. I've been staying with my friend, who has never voted anything other than Conservative.

    We didn't need to have any arguments because she had nothing good to say about them. For the first time in her life 'as things currently stand she would not vote Conservative.'

    It's an anecdote, of course, and the polls tell us that the Party is still polling in the high 20's. But if they are losing people like her then this is going to be worse than 1997.

    I was visiting a lifelong Conservative (wealthy retired landowner) last week - friend of a friend - who said that the party indubitably needed a spell in opposition, but in his opinion Starmer would be even worse, so he would probably vote for his local LibDem MP (Layla Moran). I think a surprising number of traditional Conservatives will find ways to avoid supporting them even if they have doubts about Labour - some Labour anyway, some LibDem, some simply staying at home.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 68,273

    rkrkrk said:

    It does seem to be challenging to develop laws which can stop the Sun lying, but still enable Private Eye to do investigative journalism.

    Two basic principles which make that doable now:
    1. Basic journalism ethics - do not knowingly print lies. PE regularly digs into topics which leave it accused of lying, but I am very clear their team never actively print something they know is false. As the S*n just did
    2. Basic defamation laws. If a media outlet libels you, sue them. I hope Edwards does so to the S*n and they go the way of News of the World. PE is regularly threatened with being sued - most recently by Ben Houchen International Airport and Simon Ding Dong Clarke for their ongoing expose into the Teesport scandal. And yet no litigation follows which suggests the gobshite twins know they would lose.
    I misread that and was alarmed to think OGH was still getting the Farter Fuck letters.
  • Options
    RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 27,951
    Chris said:

    Sandpit said:

    Have we done this?

    The Sun claims tonight it "never alleged criminality" and blames other media for "reading too much" into its reporting. Like yesterday's Sun story (still on website) saying the BBC figure "could be charged by cops & face years in prison."

    img src="https://us.v-cdn.net/5020679/uploads/editor/3f/hcwz1agy86dx.png" alt="" />

    https://twitter.com/arusbridger/status/1679227488155598848/photo/2

    Surely that’s the newspaper reporting what someone else said?
    Based on their reporting that a BBC reporter 'paid child for sex photos' as they've put it in quotation marks.

    Had their reporting been genuine, it could indeed have been a criminal offence that could lead to prison.

    Since the Police have investigated and found no crime was committed, that doesn't question what the expert says, it questions the reporting that Edwards allegedly "paid child for sex photos".
    The version of the Sun report that I read ran together a statement about how much money was alleged to have been paid over the whole period (which allegedly began when the "child" was 17), with a statement about a particular alleged payment, which was specifically alleged to have been for images.

    I have been presuming that people read these together and took away the notion that images had been involved from the time the "child" was 17. However, apparently the Sun "updated" the story at some point, and I'm not sure whether what I saw was the original.
    See the screen grab above. "Star who paid child for sex pictures".

    Note the repeated use of the word child in all of their articles. This has been investigated by the polis and found not to be true. The supposed victim told them it wasn't true before they published, and yet there we are "paid child for sex images". They tried to portray him as a paedophile. Knowing he wasn't.
  • Options
    DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 25,281

    148grss said:

    Nigelb said:

    Have we done this?

    The Sun claims tonight it "never alleged criminality" and blames other media for "reading too much" into its reporting. Like yesterday's Sun story (still on website) saying the BBC figure "could be charged by cops & face years in prison."



    https://twitter.com/arusbridger/status/1679227488155598848/photo/2

    Yes.
    To say they're disingenuous would be extremely generous. And this is not an organisation which deserves generosity.
    It's true that the Sun never actually joined the dots that some readers thought. But they did make it pretty easy for careless readers to do so by accident (ahem) or something. Lawyers and journalists finding ways of phrasing things that imply more than they say is another of those crud economy activities that creates GDP without really adding value to the nation.

    Most reading most of us do most of the time isn't that careful- I'm thinking lawyers reading a document or scientists reading an academic paper. Careful reading isn't morally better, but it is a different thing.

    Questions are whether the Frankie Howerd/Humphrey Lyttleton "I didn't say the bad thing and you have a filthy mind if you think I did" defence holds up in an actual court or the court of public opinion.
    They specifically alleged that photos were paid for "since 17" - since the age where photos are lawful is 18, they specifically alleged a crime on that. No dots needed to be joined.
    Except that since then the Sun has claimed that isn't what was claimed, that the conflation of age and when the photos were sent is all in the readers head. The Sun obviously deliberately wrote the story in a way to conflate those two things when they didn't have the evidence for that.
    The words they wrote are the words they wrote. It wasn't in the readers head.

    Being from Merseyside, I've never read the Sun in my life, but from the quotes I've read shared here they specifically alleged in a single sentence that the images were sent "since 17".

    That literally means that it happened at 17. If it started at 20, then "since 17" is just plain false, not inferable.
    To be fair, some of us on pb were discussing how the Sun never quite said in as many words what most of its readers were intended to infer, and which fooled the rest of the media.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 68,273

    Good morning, everyone.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/66174418

    Women's football wibble:
    "On proposals to provide one source of funding from levelling FA Cup prize money across the men's and women's game, she added: "I'd hope there would not be a backlash.

    "There are so many issues and women's sport has struggled for so long I'd hope there'd be an understanding but with anything there'll always be someone who will challenge it.

    "I could have said equalise prize money right now but that would have taken down the pyramid of men's football. We should absolutely be going for equal prize money [in the future] from the FA Cup and the FA should be putting a timescale on that.""

    Prize money is a consequence of revenue and income generated. It's not given to the men because they're men, but because men's football is a massive sport. And while women's football has grown a lot lately, it's nowhere near in the same league. When women can generate the same revenue, they'll deserve the same prize money. When they generate more than the men, they'll deserve more prize money than the men.

    The sport where I found it most ridiculous that there was a great furore about equalising men's and women's prize money was tennis. The women's game in tennis is a sport that generates a lot of attention, but while equalising the payouts they didn't change the fact that men's grand slam tennis is best of 5 sets, while women's is best of 3 sets.

    So each women's match in a grand slam can be over in about an hour, while a men's match can take 5 hours and often spill into a second day.

    Women's grand slam tennis should be best of 5 sets IMHO.
    Speaking of which, there's a real chance of a very politically charged final in the Wimbledon women's singles - Sabalenka, a Belarusian supporter of Lukashenko and somebody whose views on Ukraine have been to put it politely ambiguous, vs Svitolina.

    Goodness only knows how that would work in the post match interviews...
  • Options
    RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 27,951
    Sean_F said:

    rkrkrk said:

    It does seem to be challenging to develop laws which can stop the Sun lying, but still enable Private Eye to do investigative journalism.

    You don't have to like the Sun to conclude that the BBC would be justified in dismissing Huw Edwards.
    Sean_F said:

    rkrkrk said:

    It does seem to be challenging to develop laws which can stop the Sun lying, but still enable Private Eye to do investigative journalism.

    You don't have to like the Sun to conclude that the BBC would be justified in dismissing Huw Edwards.
    Why? Because the story brings the BBC into disrepute? The story is a lie. If the BBC dismisses or acts against him - an employee they already know is vulnerable - on the back of negative coverage which was a lie, then it is the BBC getting itself into big trouble. A very expensive tribunal payout.
  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,997
    Sean_F said:

    rkrkrk said:

    It does seem to be challenging to develop laws which can stop the Sun lying, but still enable Private Eye to do investigative journalism.

    You don't have to like the Sun to conclude that the BBC would be justified in dismissing Huw Edwards.
    The stories are wholly different.

    The BBC could cut Edwards loose because of his behaviour or support him through a substantial mental health crisis. That is a choice for them as the organisation that pays for him.

    The Sun had a double agenda here, damage the BBC (the BBC seem to be doing quite well at that without any assistance) and take down a (not my) national treasure celebrity. It looks to me like the Sun blew it's own doors off whilst aiming at Edwards. I hope someone sues the salacious barstewards for every last Australian cent.
  • Options
    DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 25,281
    boulay said:

    Good morning, everyone.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/66174418

    Women's football wibble:
    "On proposals to provide one source of funding from levelling FA Cup prize money across the men's and women's game, she added: "I'd hope there would not be a backlash.

    "There are so many issues and women's sport has struggled for so long I'd hope there'd be an understanding but with anything there'll always be someone who will challenge it.

    "I could have said equalise prize money right now but that would have taken down the pyramid of men's football. We should absolutely be going for equal prize money [in the future] from the FA Cup and the FA should be putting a timescale on that.""

    Prize money is a consequence of revenue and income generated. It's not given to the men because they're men, but because men's football is a massive sport. And while women's football has grown a lot lately, it's nowhere near in the same league. When women can generate the same revenue, they'll deserve the same prize money. When they generate more than the men, they'll deserve more prize money than the men.

    The sport where I found it most ridiculous that there was a great furore about equalising men's and women's prize money was tennis. The women's game in tennis is a sport that generates a lot of attention, but while equalising the payouts they didn't change the fact that men's grand slam tennis is best of 5 sets, while women's is best of 3 sets.

    So each women's match in a grand slam can be over in about an hour, while a men's match can take 5 hours and often spill into a second day.

    Women's grand slam tennis should be best of 5 sets IMHO.
    I used to think that and am sad enough one time to work out the hours played by the men’s winner that year compared to the women’s winner but I think with Tennis the Women’s grand slams are as big a draw as the men and the game being slightly different - style and length of game (and the length possibly allows for a better game in the women’s game) is a good thing so if the women’s game are drawing in the viewers and pushing the tv rights and bringing in the same revenue then I see no issue with prize money being the same.

    The more accurate comparison is outside of grand slams where the LTA and WTA play separate events where there are different levels of prize money related to different levels of interest and therefore ticket sale revenue and broadcasting revenue.
    Yes, the measure of male vs female productivity in tennis, or sport generally, and much of show business, is bums on seats, not sets or speed or hours. It would be of interest to know if the black market price for the men's final is more than the women's.
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 36,276
    edited July 2023

    rkrkrk said:

    It does seem to be challenging to develop laws which can stop the Sun lying, but still enable Private Eye to do investigative journalism.

    Two basic principles which make that doable now:
    1. Basic journalism ethics - do not knowingly print lies. PE regularly digs into topics which leave it accused of lying, but I am very clear their team never actively print something they know is false. As the S*n just did
    2. Basic defamation laws. If a media outlet libels you, sue them. I hope Edwards does so to the S*n and they go the way of News of the World. PE is regularly threatened with being sued - most recently by Ben Houchen International Airport and Simon Ding Dong Clarke for their ongoing expose into the Teesport scandal. And yet no litigation follows which suggests the gobshite twins know they would lose.
    Auberon Waugh said that the Eye printed a story if it was funny, and worried afterwards, whether or not it was true. The Eye never had much in the way of assets to sue against. Waugh principally loathed Jeremy Thorpe because he was gay, and enjoyed taking the piss out of him over it. He got lucky with the criminal prosecution.

    Edwards would have to prove innuendo on the part of the Sun (ie people reading the story would guess that they were referring to Edwards.) The Sun might well have a public interest defence (if it were truly the case that an eminent man were paying an addict for sexual images); and Edwards might be in danger of being awarded only nominal damages, given his current reputation, even if he won his case.
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 32,931

    Heathener said:

    Good morning.

    My week in Surrey has been lovely. I've been staying with my friend, who has never voted anything other than Conservative.

    We didn't need to have any arguments because she had nothing good to say about them. For the first time in her life 'as things currently stand she would not vote Conservative.'

    It's an anecdote, of course, and the polls tell us that the Party is still polling in the high 20's. But if they are losing people like her then this is going to be worse than 1997.

    I was visiting a lifelong Conservative (wealthy retired landowner) last week - friend of a friend - who said that the party indubitably needed a spell in opposition, but in his opinion Starmer would be even worse, so he would probably vote for his local LibDem MP (Layla Moran). I think a surprising number of traditional Conservatives will find ways to avoid supporting them even if they have doubts about Labour - some Labour anyway, some LibDem, some simply staying at home.
    My father-in-law, ex-farmer, lifelong Conservative voter, has just returned his postal vote for Somerton & Frome. He hasn't told Mrs P. which way he's voted and she, quite rightly, hasn't asked. But neither of us are in any doubt he will have voted Tory, come what may.

    He represents that proportion of customary Tory voters who are not enamoured with the current party (far from it) but look upon voting Tory as an act of duty, akin to standing up for the national anthem, bowing one's head when at prayer, etc. etc.

    There will truly be a rock-bottom level of support the Tories cannot fall under.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 68,273
    You realise what the worst thing for political anoraks is about the Huw Edwards saga?

    The choice of presenters for the next election night on the Beeb will be between Jon Sopel, Jeremy Vine and Laura Kuennsberg.
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 40,865
    edited July 2023

    Nigelb said:

    Have we done this?

    The Sun claims tonight it "never alleged criminality" and blames other media for "reading too much" into its reporting. Like yesterday's Sun story (still on website) saying the BBC figure "could be charged by cops & face years in prison."



    https://twitter.com/arusbridger/status/1679227488155598848/photo/2

    Yes.
    To say they're disingenuous would be extremely generous. And this is not an organisation which deserves generosity.
    It's true that the Sun never actually joined the dots that some readers thought. But they did make it pretty easy for careless readers to do so by accident (ahem) or something. Lawyers and journalists finding ways of phrasing things that imply more than they say is another of those crud economy activities that creates GDP without really adding value to the nation.

    Most reading most of us do most of the time isn't that careful- I'm thinking lawyers reading a document or scientists reading an academic paper. Careful reading isn't morally better, but it is a different thing.

    Questions are whether the Frankie Howerd/Humphrey Lyttleton "I didn't say the bad thing and you have a filthy mind if you think I did" defence holds up in an actual court or the court of public opinion.
    They specifically alleged that photos were paid for "since 17" - since the age where photos are lawful is 18, they specifically alleged a crime on that. No dots needed to be joined.
    But is 17 the year or the birthday? If I were born on say 3 May 2005, my 17th birthday would be 3 May 2022, and my 18th on 3 May 2023. "Since 17" could mean [edit] the time period beginning with either date.
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,118
    Mr. Pioneers, inclined to agree, given the police believe no criminality has occurred.

    Dismissed for an act within the bounds of the law that has no direct impact on the workplace seems like an unhealthy precedent.
  • Options
    148grss148grss Posts: 3,919

    148grss said:

    Nigelb said:

    Have we done this?

    The Sun claims tonight it "never alleged criminality" and blames other media for "reading too much" into its reporting. Like yesterday's Sun story (still on website) saying the BBC figure "could be charged by cops & face years in prison."



    https://twitter.com/arusbridger/status/1679227488155598848/photo/2

    Yes.
    To say they're disingenuous would be extremely generous. And this is not an organisation which deserves generosity.
    It's true that the Sun never actually joined the dots that some readers thought. But they did make it pretty easy for careless readers to do so by accident (ahem) or something. Lawyers and journalists finding ways of phrasing things that imply more than they say is another of those crud economy activities that creates GDP without really adding value to the nation.

    Most reading most of us do most of the time isn't that careful- I'm thinking lawyers reading a document or scientists reading an academic paper. Careful reading isn't morally better, but it is a different thing.

    Questions are whether the Frankie Howerd/Humphrey Lyttleton "I didn't say the bad thing and you have a filthy mind if you think I did" defence holds up in an actual court or the court of public opinion.
    They specifically alleged that photos were paid for "since 17" - since the age where photos are lawful is 18, they specifically alleged a crime on that. No dots needed to be joined.
    Except that since then the Sun has claimed that isn't what was claimed, that the conflation of age and when the photos were sent is all in the readers head. The Sun obviously deliberately wrote the story in a way to conflate those two things when they didn't have the evidence for that.
    The words they wrote are the words they wrote. It wasn't in the readers head.

    Being from Merseyside, I've never read the Sun in my life, but from the quotes I've read shared here they specifically alleged in a single sentence that the images were sent "since 17".

    That literally means that it happened at 17. If it started at 20, then "since 17" is just plain false, not inferable.
    And the words they wrote seem to be not true. That is the problem. And since it has become clear that they aren't true the Sun has claimed that wasn't what they meant by that sentence. And seem to be getting away with that argument somehow.
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 32,931

    Sean_F said:

    rkrkrk said:

    It does seem to be challenging to develop laws which can stop the Sun lying, but still enable Private Eye to do investigative journalism.

    You don't have to like the Sun to conclude that the BBC would be justified in dismissing Huw Edwards.
    The stories are wholly different.

    The BBC could cut Edwards loose because of his behaviour or support him through a substantial mental health crisis. That is a choice for them as the organisation that pays for him.

    The Sun had a double agenda here, damage the BBC (the BBC seem to be doing quite well at that without any assistance) and take down a (not my) national treasure celebrity. It looks to me like the Sun blew it's own doors off whilst aiming at Edwards. I hope someone sues the salacious barstewards for every last Australian cent.
    Triple agenda: 1. Sell more newspapers, 2... etc.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 68,273

    Heathener said:

    Good morning.

    My week in Surrey has been lovely. I've been staying with my friend, who has never voted anything other than Conservative.

    We didn't need to have any arguments because she had nothing good to say about them. For the first time in her life 'as things currently stand she would not vote Conservative.'

    It's an anecdote, of course, and the polls tell us that the Party is still polling in the high 20's. But if they are losing people like her then this is going to be worse than 1997.

    I was visiting a lifelong Conservative (wealthy retired landowner) last week - friend of a friend - who said that the party indubitably needed a spell in opposition, but in his opinion Starmer would be even worse, so he would probably vote for his local LibDem MP (Layla Moran). I think a surprising number of traditional Conservatives will find ways to avoid supporting them even if they have doubts about Labour - some Labour anyway, some LibDem, some simply staying at home.
    My father-in-law, ex-farmer, lifelong Conservative voter, has just returned his postal vote for Somerton & Frome. He hasn't told Mrs P. which way he's voted and she, quite rightly, hasn't asked. But neither of us are in any doubt he will have voted Tory, come what may.

    He represents that proportion of customary Tory voters who are not enamoured with the current party (far from it) but look upon voting Tory as an act of duty, akin to standing up for the national anthem, bowing one's head when at prayer, etc. etc.

    There will truly be a rock-bottom level of support the Tories cannot fall under.
    There was once a comment on the Telegraph website disparaging such tribal voters. "People who 'vote Labour because my Dad did sheep" was the exact phrase.

    Yes, they did punctuate it that way, leaving out a fairly significant inverted comma.

    Underneath many others referred to my fellow Welshmen in less than flattering terms...
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 32,931

    Mr. Pioneers, inclined to agree, given the police believe no criminality has occurred.

    Dismissed for an act within the bounds of the law that has no direct impact on the workplace seems like an unhealthy precedent.

    Bringing the company (corporation) into disrepute? Also, would Edwards really want to take on an Employment Tribunal case with all the publicity that would bring?
  • Options
    StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 15,195

    rkrkrk said:

    It does seem to be challenging to develop laws which can stop the Sun lying, but still enable Private Eye to do investigative journalism.

    Two basic principles which make that doable now:
    1. Basic journalism ethics - do not knowingly print lies. PE regularly digs into topics which leave it accused of lying, but I am very clear their team never actively print something they know is false. As the S*n just did
    2. Basic defamation laws. If a media outlet libels you, sue them. I hope Edwards does so to the S*n and they go the way of News of the World. PE is regularly threatened with being sued - most recently by Ben Houchen International Airport and Simon Ding Dong Clarke for their ongoing expose into the Teesport scandal. And yet no litigation follows which suggests the gobshite twins know they would lose.
    Yup. If you put the effort in, you can rely on the Arkell vs. Pressdram response.

    And that's about how writers write, editors edit, and readers choose what to buy- trying to legislate out all the grey is a mug's game (though I'm sure we could do better than we currently do in the UK.)

    There was that hack who lost his job at The Times for making stuff up. Wonder whatever became of him?
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,140

    Sandpit said:

    Have we done this?

    The Sun claims tonight it "never alleged criminality" and blames other media for "reading too much" into its reporting. Like yesterday's Sun story (still on website) saying the BBC figure "could be charged by cops & face years in prison."

    img src="https://us.v-cdn.net/5020679/uploads/editor/3f/hcwz1agy86dx.png" alt="" />

    https://twitter.com/arusbridger/status/1679227488155598848/photo/2

    Surely that’s the newspaper reporting what someone else said?
    Based on their reporting that a BBC reporter 'paid child for sex photos' as they've put it in quotation marks.

    Had their reporting been genuine, it could indeed have been a criminal offence that could lead to prison.

    Since the Police have investigated and found no crime was committed, that doesn't question what the expert says, it questions the reporting that Edwards allegedly "paid child for sex photos".
    The word child does have two meanings in English, everyone is someone's child ;)
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 40,865
    Jonathan said:

    Interesting @Heathener posts. The Tories are in a bind. Their latest leader is politically tone deaf and they need a wizard to polish their record. They can’t go into the election promising change or “more of the same”. They have driven themselves into a cul-de-sac. The only thing they have left right now is residual tribal loyalty. The economy cannot bear tax cuts and they keep recycling the same cuts of red meat. They stand for nothing apart from themselves.

    Hmm, a rather unattractive metaphor, appropriately so. The meat getting more and more fly-blown, dusty and greenish every time it is slapped out onto the stained trestle table.
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 32,931
    ydoethur said:

    Heathener said:

    Good morning.

    My week in Surrey has been lovely. I've been staying with my friend, who has never voted anything other than Conservative.

    We didn't need to have any arguments because she had nothing good to say about them. For the first time in her life 'as things currently stand she would not vote Conservative.'

    It's an anecdote, of course, and the polls tell us that the Party is still polling in the high 20's. But if they are losing people like her then this is going to be worse than 1997.

    I was visiting a lifelong Conservative (wealthy retired landowner) last week - friend of a friend - who said that the party indubitably needed a spell in opposition, but in his opinion Starmer would be even worse, so he would probably vote for his local LibDem MP (Layla Moran). I think a surprising number of traditional Conservatives will find ways to avoid supporting them even if they have doubts about Labour - some Labour anyway, some LibDem, some simply staying at home.
    My father-in-law, ex-farmer, lifelong Conservative voter, has just returned his postal vote for Somerton & Frome. He hasn't told Mrs P. which way he's voted and she, quite rightly, hasn't asked. But neither of us are in any doubt he will have voted Tory, come what may.

    He represents that proportion of customary Tory voters who are not enamoured with the current party (far from it) but look upon voting Tory as an act of duty, akin to standing up for the national anthem, bowing one's head when at prayer, etc. etc.

    There will truly be a rock-bottom level of support the Tories cannot fall under.
    There was once a comment on the Telegraph website disparaging such tribal voters. "People who 'vote Labour because my Dad did sheep" was the exact phrase.

    Yes, they did punctuate it that way, leaving out a fairly significant inverted comma.

    Underneath many others referred to my fellow Welshmen in less than flattering terms...
    Lol. "Your dad did sheep? Then vote Labour boyo!"
  • Options
    RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 27,951
    Sean_F said:

    rkrkrk said:

    It does seem to be challenging to develop laws which can stop the Sun lying, but still enable Private Eye to do investigative journalism.

    Two basic principles which make that doable now:
    1. Basic journalism ethics - do not knowingly print lies. PE regularly digs into topics which leave it accused of lying, but I am very clear their team never actively print something they know is false. As the S*n just did
    2. Basic defamation laws. If a media outlet libels you, sue them. I hope Edwards does so to the S*n and they go the way of News of the World. PE is regularly threatened with being sued - most recently by Ben Houchen International Airport and Simon Ding Dong Clarke for their ongoing expose into the Teesport scandal. And yet no litigation follows which suggests the gobshite twins know they would lose.
    Auberon Waugh said that the Eye printed a story if it was funny, and worried afterwards, whether or not it was true. The Eye never had much in the way of assets to sue against.

    Edwards would have to prove innuendo on the part of the Sun (ie people reading the story would guess that they were referring to Edwards.) The Sun might well have a public interest defence (if it were truly the case that an eminent man were paying an addict for sexual images); and Edwards might be in danger of being awarded only nominal damages, given his current reputation, even if he won his case.
    "His current reputation" which has been trashed by the lies knowingly printed by The S*n? Any PI defence their lawyers want to try and hide behind was demolished when they chose not to publish the facts and instead embellished the story into a pack of lies.

    As for them not printing his name, they printed enough so that we all knew days before the final big reveal yesterday. Well established in defamation law that you don't actually need to print a name if it is clear who the person is. Especially as they went back for another few days of P1 leads denouncing the BBC.
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 40,865
    ydoethur said:

    You realise what the worst thing for political anoraks is about the Huw Edwards saga?

    The choice of presenters for the next election night on the Beeb will be between Jon Sopel, Jeremy Vine and Laura Kuennsberg.

    Nodt to mention the next Royal announcement.
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,462
    Sean_F said:

    Good morning, everyone.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/66174418

    Women's football wibble:
    "On proposals to provide one source of funding from levelling FA Cup prize money across the men's and women's game, she added: "I'd hope there would not be a backlash.

    "There are so many issues and women's sport has struggled for so long I'd hope there'd be an understanding but with anything there'll always be someone who will challenge it.

    "I could have said equalise prize money right now but that would have taken down the pyramid of men's football. We should absolutely be going for equal prize money [in the future] from the FA Cup and the FA should be putting a timescale on that.""

    Prize money is a consequence of revenue and income generated. It's not given to the men because they're men, but because men's football is a massive sport. And while women's football has grown a lot lately, it's nowhere near in the same league. When women can generate the same revenue, they'll deserve the same prize money. When they generate more than the men, they'll deserve more prize money than the men.

    The sport where I found it most ridiculous that there was a great furore about equalising men's and women's prize money was tennis. The women's game in tennis is a sport that generates a lot of attention, but while equalising the payouts they didn't change the fact that men's grand slam tennis is best of 5 sets, while women's is best of 3 sets.

    So each women's match in a grand slam can be over in about an hour, while a men's match can take 5 hours and often spill into a second day.

    Women's grand slam tennis should be best of 5 sets IMHO.
    Womens' tennis, however, is more interesting, as there are fewer aces served.
    It is all boring crap
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 68,273
    Carnyx said:

    ydoethur said:

    You realise what the worst thing for political anoraks is about the Huw Edwards saga?

    The choice of presenters for the next election night on the Beeb will be between Jon Sopel, Jeremy Vine and Laura Kuennsberg.

    Nodt to mention the next Royal announcement.
    That only affects Leon and Hyufd.

    The election affects us all.
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 40,865
    ydoethur said:

    Carnyx said:

    ydoethur said:

    You realise what the worst thing for political anoraks is about the Huw Edwards saga?

    The choice of presenters for the next election night on the Beeb will be between Jon Sopel, Jeremy Vine and Laura Kuennsberg.

    Nodt to mention the next Royal announcement.
    That only affects Leon and Hyufd.

    The election affects us all.
    Yes, but we all have to wait till the Royal stuff is over before we can see the real stuff.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 45,512
    A
    Carnyx said:

    Jonathan said:

    Interesting @Heathener posts. The Tories are in a bind. Their latest leader is politically tone deaf and they need a wizard to polish their record. They can’t go into the election promising change or “more of the same”. They have driven themselves into a cul-de-sac. The only thing they have left right now is residual tribal loyalty. The economy cannot bear tax cuts and they keep recycling the same cuts of red meat. They stand for nothing apart from themselves.

    Hmm, a rather unattractive metaphor, appropriately so. The meat getting more and more fly-blown, dusty and greenish every time it is slapped out onto the stained trestle table.
    It reads like that skit in Yes Minister where Humphrey is panicking and uses all the metaphors.
  • Options
    RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 27,951

    Mr. Pioneers, inclined to agree, given the police believe no criminality has occurred.

    Dismissed for an act within the bounds of the law that has no direct impact on the workplace seems like an unhealthy precedent.

    Bringing the company (corporation) into disrepute? Also, would Edwards really want to take on an Employment Tribunal case with all the publicity that would bring?
    He won't have to- the BBC will not fire him as the right wing hate mob continue to demand.
  • Options

    Chris said:

    Sandpit said:

    Have we done this?

    The Sun claims tonight it "never alleged criminality" and blames other media for "reading too much" into its reporting. Like yesterday's Sun story (still on website) saying the BBC figure "could be charged by cops & face years in prison."

    img src="https://us.v-cdn.net/5020679/uploads/editor/3f/hcwz1agy86dx.png" alt="" />

    https://twitter.com/arusbridger/status/1679227488155598848/photo/2

    Surely that’s the newspaper reporting what someone else said?
    Based on their reporting that a BBC reporter 'paid child for sex photos' as they've put it in quotation marks.

    Had their reporting been genuine, it could indeed have been a criminal offence that could lead to prison.

    Since the Police have investigated and found no crime was committed, that doesn't question what the expert says, it questions the reporting that Edwards allegedly "paid child for sex photos".
    The version of the Sun report that I read ran together a statement about how much money was alleged to have been paid over the whole period (which allegedly began when the "child" was 17), with a statement about a particular alleged payment, which was specifically alleged to have been for images.

    I have been presuming that people read these together and took away the notion that images had been involved from the time the "child" was 17. However, apparently the Sun "updated" the story at some point, and I'm not sure whether what I saw was the original.
    See the screen grab above. "Star who paid child for sex pictures".

    Note the repeated use of the word child in all of their articles. This has been investigated by the polis and found not to be true. The supposed victim told them it wasn't true before they published, and yet there we are "paid child for sex images". They tried to portray him as a paedophile. Knowing he wasn't.
    A 17 year old is a child under the relevant law.

    The issue isn't that they used the word child, the issue is it never happened at 17 apparently when they outright claimed that it did.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 68,273
    edited July 2023
    malcolmg said:

    Sean_F said:

    Good morning, everyone.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/66174418

    Women's football wibble:
    "On proposals to provide one source of funding from levelling FA Cup prize money across the men's and women's game, she added: "I'd hope there would not be a backlash.

    "There are so many issues and women's sport has struggled for so long I'd hope there'd be an understanding but with anything there'll always be someone who will challenge it.

    "I could have said equalise prize money right now but that would have taken down the pyramid of men's football. We should absolutely be going for equal prize money [in the future] from the FA Cup and the FA should be putting a timescale on that.""

    Prize money is a consequence of revenue and income generated. It's not given to the men because they're men, but because men's football is a massive sport. And while women's football has grown a lot lately, it's nowhere near in the same league. When women can generate the same revenue, they'll deserve the same prize money. When they generate more than the men, they'll deserve more prize money than the men.

    The sport where I found it most ridiculous that there was a great furore about equalising men's and women's prize money was tennis. The women's game in tennis is a sport that generates a lot of attention, but while equalising the payouts they didn't change the fact that men's grand slam tennis is best of 5 sets, while women's is best of 3 sets.

    So each women's match in a grand slam can be over in about an hour, while a men's match can take 5 hours and often spill into a second day.

    Women's grand slam tennis should be best of 5 sets IMHO.
    Womens' tennis, however, is more interesting, as there are fewer aces served.
    It is all boring crap
    Is there anything you actually like, Malc? Other than turnips and Alex Salmond, obviously.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 45,793
    Carnyx said:

    ydoethur said:

    You realise what the worst thing for political anoraks is about the Huw Edwards saga?

    The choice of presenters for the next election night on the Beeb will be between Jon Sopel, Jeremy Vine and Laura Kuennsberg.

    Nodt to mention the next Royal announcement.
    None likely in the near future surely?

    Plenty of time to train up the next sycophants.
  • Options
    Alphabet_SoupAlphabet_Soup Posts: 2,826
    ydoethur said:

    Good morning, everyone.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/66174418

    Women's football wibble:
    "On proposals to provide one source of funding from levelling FA Cup prize money across the men's and women's game, she added: "I'd hope there would not be a backlash.

    "There are so many issues and women's sport has struggled for so long I'd hope there'd be an understanding but with anything there'll always be someone who will challenge it.

    "I could have said equalise prize money right now but that would have taken down the pyramid of men's football. We should absolutely be going for equal prize money [in the future] from the FA Cup and the FA should be putting a timescale on that.""

    Prize money is a consequence of revenue and income generated. It's not given to the men because they're men, but because men's football is a massive sport. And while women's football has grown a lot lately, it's nowhere near in the same league. When women can generate the same revenue, they'll deserve the same prize money. When they generate more than the men, they'll deserve more prize money than the men.

    The sport where I found it most ridiculous that there was a great furore about equalising men's and women's prize money was tennis. The women's game in tennis is a sport that generates a lot of attention, but while equalising the payouts they didn't change the fact that men's grand slam tennis is best of 5 sets, while women's is best of 3 sets.

    So each women's match in a grand slam can be over in about an hour, while a men's match can take 5 hours and often spill into a second day.

    Women's grand slam tennis should be best of 5 sets IMHO.
    Speaking of which, there's a real chance of a very politically charged final in the Wimbledon women's singles - Sabalenka, a Belarusian supporter of Lukashenko and somebody whose views on Ukraine have been to put it politely ambiguous, vs Svitolina.

    Goodness only knows how that would work in the post match interviews...
    Do they ever employ interpreters for post-match interviews or do they just assume every sportsperson can speak English? A questionable assumption, it seems to me, though it's a genre I tend to avoid.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 45,512

    Mr. Pioneers, inclined to agree, given the police believe no criminality has occurred.

    Dismissed for an act within the bounds of the law that has no direct impact on the workplace seems like an unhealthy precedent.

    Bringing the company (corporation) into disrepute? Also, would Edwards really want to take on an Employment Tribunal case with all the publicity that would bring?
    Yup. And the latitude to define "bringing the organisation into disrepute" is pretty broad, from what I have seen.

    It's another event that should make people think of their own circumstances and their own legal protections.
  • Options
    Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 13,813
    edited July 2023

    Heathener said:

    I by no means rule out a sub-100 seat tory result.

    The conditions are FAR worse than 1997 when, despite Black Wednesday five years previously, the economy was in good shape.

    This time the Conservatives have trashed their brand AND presided over increasing financial turmoil. I do agree with that article in that once you touch people's homes, even if only by implied threat, you're in deep trouble.

    The question of course is that if the Tories are to fall that low, to whom will they be losing those seats? Labour surely can't pick up some of the seats where they don't exist on the ground (such as the new Aberdeenshire North / Moray east seat) and yet some forecasts show that

    I can see them lose a stack of seats, but not as many as dropping to just 100. Yes of course it's possible, it just feels extraordinary unlikely. No matter how egregiously unpopular and awful they are - and they truly are - unless the alternative clearly has a plan (as Tony Blair did) I just can't see it happening on that scale
    On your first question, Rochdale, I am sure that if the Tories drop to about 100 the LDs will pick up a lot more than you might have guessed by a cursory glance at some of the more mechanistic models such as Electoral Calculus.

    My constituency of Tewkesbury is a good example. By EC's reckoning, the sitting MP, Laurence Robertson, would just about hold on from Labour in a 100 seat scenario. Locals will tell you however that the real challenge would come from the LDs, who did well at the May elections. There is also a scandal to work on, so I wouldn't be too surprised if he was edged out by the Yellow Peril.

    I think there are other seats where the 'swingometer' makes Labour the challenger when it is really the LDs who threaten, albeit at dismal levels of Tory support. Anyway I think that amswers your question.

    Btw I should in fairness add that Robertson is a perfectly decent MP. 'Bit lazy' is about the worst that is generally said of him. As for the 'scandal', it seems he may have overindulged in hospitality at the annual bash known as The Cheltenham Festival. That is a sin for which I think clemency would be in ample supply on a forum such as this.
  • Options
    MiklosvarMiklosvar Posts: 1,855

    Mr. Pioneers, inclined to agree, given the police believe no criminality has occurred.

    Dismissed for an act within the bounds of the law that has no direct impact on the workplace seems like an unhealthy precedent.

    Beeb are going large on new allegations of messages to colleagues for obvious reasons.
  • Options
    StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 15,195
    Sean_F said:

    rkrkrk said:

    It does seem to be challenging to develop laws which can stop the Sun lying, but still enable Private Eye to do investigative journalism.

    Two basic principles which make that doable now:
    1. Basic journalism ethics - do not knowingly print lies. PE regularly digs into topics which leave it accused of lying, but I am very clear their team never actively print something they know is false. As the S*n just did
    2. Basic defamation laws. If a media outlet libels you, sue them. I hope Edwards does so to the S*n and they go the way of News of the World. PE is regularly threatened with being sued - most recently by Ben Houchen International Airport and Simon Ding Dong Clarke for their ongoing expose into the Teesport scandal. And yet no litigation follows which suggests the gobshite twins know they would lose.
    Auberon Waugh said that the Eye printed a story if it was funny, and worried afterwards, whether or not it was true. The Eye never had much in the way of assets to sue against. Waugh principally loathed Jeremy Thorpe because he was gay, and enjoyed taking the piss out of him over it. He got lucky with the criminal prosecution.

    Edwards would have to prove innuendo on the part of the Sun (ie people reading the story would guess that they were referring to Edwards.) The Sun might well have a public interest defence (if it were truly the case that an eminent man were paying an addict for sexual images); and Edwards might be in danger of being awarded only nominal damages, given his current reputation, even if he won his case.
    Bron was writing for the Eye was a while ago, and even then there was also the Paul Foot tradition of painfully extracting as many facts as possible so the story must be true. There's still waspish gossip, and some of their expert columnists have odd prejudices, but their hit rate for scandals is pretty good.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 45,512
    ydoethur said:

    malcolmg said:

    Sean_F said:

    Good morning, everyone.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/66174418

    Women's football wibble:
    "On proposals to provide one source of funding from levelling FA Cup prize money across the men's and women's game, she added: "I'd hope there would not be a backlash.

    "There are so many issues and women's sport has struggled for so long I'd hope there'd be an understanding but with anything there'll always be someone who will challenge it.

    "I could have said equalise prize money right now but that would have taken down the pyramid of men's football. We should absolutely be going for equal prize money [in the future] from the FA Cup and the FA should be putting a timescale on that.""

    Prize money is a consequence of revenue and income generated. It's not given to the men because they're men, but because men's football is a massive sport. And while women's football has grown a lot lately, it's nowhere near in the same league. When women can generate the same revenue, they'll deserve the same prize money. When they generate more than the men, they'll deserve more prize money than the men.

    The sport where I found it most ridiculous that there was a great furore about equalising men's and women's prize money was tennis. The women's game in tennis is a sport that generates a lot of attention, but while equalising the payouts they didn't change the fact that men's grand slam tennis is best of 5 sets, while women's is best of 3 sets.

    So each women's match in a grand slam can be over in about an hour, while a men's match can take 5 hours and often spill into a second day.

    Women's grand slam tennis should be best of 5 sets IMHO.
    Womens' tennis, however, is more interesting, as there are fewer aces served.
    It is all boring crap
    Is there anything you actually like, Malc? Other than turnips and Alex Salmond, obviously.
    Alex Salmond throwing turnips, of course.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 68,273

    ydoethur said:

    Good morning, everyone.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/66174418

    Women's football wibble:
    "On proposals to provide one source of funding from levelling FA Cup prize money across the men's and women's game, she added: "I'd hope there would not be a backlash.

    "There are so many issues and women's sport has struggled for so long I'd hope there'd be an understanding but with anything there'll always be someone who will challenge it.

    "I could have said equalise prize money right now but that would have taken down the pyramid of men's football. We should absolutely be going for equal prize money [in the future] from the FA Cup and the FA should be putting a timescale on that.""

    Prize money is a consequence of revenue and income generated. It's not given to the men because they're men, but because men's football is a massive sport. And while women's football has grown a lot lately, it's nowhere near in the same league. When women can generate the same revenue, they'll deserve the same prize money. When they generate more than the men, they'll deserve more prize money than the men.

    The sport where I found it most ridiculous that there was a great furore about equalising men's and women's prize money was tennis. The women's game in tennis is a sport that generates a lot of attention, but while equalising the payouts they didn't change the fact that men's grand slam tennis is best of 5 sets, while women's is best of 3 sets.

    So each women's match in a grand slam can be over in about an hour, while a men's match can take 5 hours and often spill into a second day.

    Women's grand slam tennis should be best of 5 sets IMHO.
    Speaking of which, there's a real chance of a very politically charged final in the Wimbledon women's singles - Sabalenka, a Belarusian supporter of Lukashenko and somebody whose views on Ukraine have been to put it politely ambiguous, vs Svitolina.

    Goodness only knows how that would work in the post match interviews...
    Do they ever employ interpreters for post-match interviews or do they just assume every sportsperson can speak English? A questionable assumption, it seems to me, though it's a genre I tend to avoid.
    They don't employ them at the French Open (which caused Murray some embarrassment in his one final appearance) so I would guess no. Bearing in mind even stars from the former Soviet Union tend to have trained in America.

    Equally, I don't know that it's ever arisen. So it might be if they had somebody they knew didn't speak English they would have an interpreter handy.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 45,512

    Mr. Pioneers, inclined to agree, given the police believe no criminality has occurred.

    Dismissed for an act within the bounds of the law that has no direct impact on the workplace seems like an unhealthy precedent.

    Bringing the company (corporation) into disrepute? Also, would Edwards really want to take on an Employment Tribunal case with all the publicity that would bring?
    He won't have to- the BBC will not fire him as the right wing hate mob continue to demand.
    Is he actually an employee? - surely, more likely to be a contractor via personal company, given that all the other Top Talent is doing that.
  • Options
    algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 11,047
    ydoethur said:

    You realise what the worst thing for political anoraks is about the Huw Edwards saga?

    The choice of presenters for the next election night on the Beeb will be between Jon Sopel, Jeremy Vine and Laura Kuennsberg.

    This thought, especially Jeremy Vine (cowboy outfit?) reminds me that an I get older election night with Radio 4 becomes a more and more attractive option.
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,140
    Sean_F said:

    Good morning, everyone.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/66174418

    Women's football wibble:
    "On proposals to provide one source of funding from levelling FA Cup prize money across the men's and women's game, she added: "I'd hope there would not be a backlash.

    "There are so many issues and women's sport has struggled for so long I'd hope there'd be an understanding but with anything there'll always be someone who will challenge it.

    "I could have said equalise prize money right now but that would have taken down the pyramid of men's football. We should absolutely be going for equal prize money [in the future] from the FA Cup and the FA should be putting a timescale on that.""

    Prize money is a consequence of revenue and income generated. It's not given to the men because they're men, but because men's football is a massive sport. And while women's football has grown a lot lately, it's nowhere near in the same league. When women can generate the same revenue, they'll deserve the same prize money. When they generate more than the men, they'll deserve more prize money than the men.

    The sport where I found it most ridiculous that there was a great furore about equalising men's and women's prize money was tennis. The women's game in tennis is a sport that generates a lot of attention, but while equalising the payouts they didn't change the fact that men's grand slam tennis is best of 5 sets, while women's is best of 3 sets.

    So each women's match in a grand slam can be over in about an hour, while a men's match can take 5 hours and often spill into a second day.

    Women's grand slam tennis should be best of 5 sets IMHO.
    Womens' tennis, however, is more interesting, as there are fewer aces served.
    Alcaraz - Rune had fewer aces than Sabalenka - Keys.
This discussion has been closed.