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Sunak’s Savile strategy may not fix it for the Tories – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,143
edited July 2023 in General
imageSunak’s Savile strategy may not fix it for the Tories – politicalbetting.com

However unsavoury it might be, don’t underestimate just how much the Starmer / Savile prosecution comes up in focus groups with swing voters. https://t.co/eZqmeAFx1A

Read the full story here

«13

Comments

  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,084
    edited July 2023
    Good morning and I am back in Surrey, staying with a Conservative friend. I know, I know. She has never voted for any other party in her life.

    FWIW, anecfactually, she is utterly appalled by the Robert Jenrick action. I mean really, deeply, upset about it. In fact I had to try to get her to stop going on about it.

    So, @TSE you are right to call them out over this. With people like you around the tory party WILL one day come to its senses and return both to the centre and to decency.

    But right now? They are disappearing into a very dark alleyway. They are beginning to remind me of that shrivelled soul of Lord Voldemort in the final scenes of Harry Potter VIII.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,688
    Second. Not worth commenting on
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677



    Dura Ace says 'Hi'.

    In my significant experience British forces are not institutionally and culturally cruel in the way that the US (rapey), Australians (stone cold killers), Russians (everything) and Ukrainians (dank memes) are.

    They are, however, relentless and rapacious thieves who will steal anything from anyone (including each other) by means of coercion or deception.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,735
    edited July 2023
    Good morning, everyone.

    F1: unless there's some news I've missed (this has happened before) Piastri for a podium at 16 (boosted from 15) on Ladbrokes is too long, and a matter of name recognition. It is odds against, but Norris, same car one grid slot higher, is barely over evens. As far as I can tell, they both have upgrades. Advocate setting up a hedge.

    This'll be in the pre-race ramble, of course.

    Edited extra bit: too short a margin for me but if you want to play safety first you can lay this at 15 on Betfair or Smarkets.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,872
    Dura_Ace said:



    Dura Ace says 'Hi'.

    In my significant experience British forces are not institutionally and culturally cruel in the way that the US (rapey), Australians (stone cold killers), Russians (everything) and Ukrainians (dank memes) are.

    They are, however, relentless and rapacious thieves who will steal anything from anyone (including each other) by means of coercion or deception.
    A nation of stealers from shopkeepers
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,735
    Betting Post

    F1: pre-race ramble, Piastri fanboy edition:
    https://enormo-haddock.blogspot.com/2023/07/uk-pre-race-2023.html

    Also backed him at 2.55 to win group 2 (Albon, Stroll, Ocon, Gasly) in addition to the podium bet.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,707
    I'm not sure the Labour poster will help keep Savile out of the election.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,790
    Euclice !

    We need more EU workers, admits leading Tory Brexiter
    George Eustice, the former environment secretary, is calling for a reciprocal visa scheme so that under-35s can work across the EU and Britain
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/jul/08/tory-brexiter-george-eustice-visas-young-eu-workers-labour-shortage
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,790
    UK’s soaring liver cancer death rate blamed on alcohol and obesity
    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/jul/09/uk-soaring-liver-cancer-death-rate-alcohol-obesity
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,857
    A

    Dura_Ace said:



    Dura Ace says 'Hi'.

    In my significant experience British forces are not institutionally and culturally cruel in the way that the US (rapey), Australians (stone cold killers), Russians (everything) and Ukrainians (dank memes) are.

    They are, however, relentless and rapacious thieves who will steal anything from anyone (including each other) by means of coercion or deception.
    A nation of stealers from shopkeepers
    The late, great Senator John McCain found (or his staff found) a strange pattern of increased loss rate of minor equipment on certain deployments.

    Chasing it down, it was finally pointed out that it corresponded with deployments next to British troops. Who would, apparently barter with their American counterparts for items they lacked.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,735
    Mr. B, careful, you'll be called fatphobic for pointing out reality.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,857

    Mr. B, careful, you'll be called fatphobic for pointing out reality.

    A great many people are realityphobic
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,455

    I'm not sure the Labour poster will help keep Savile out of the election.

    Quite. Have Labour been hiring Americans, that’s the sort of horrible negative campaigning that goes down well over there.

    Keep it positive, especially when you’re in the lead.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,857
    A
    Sandpit said:

    I'm not sure the Labour poster will help keep Savile out of the election.

    Quite. Have Labour been hiring Americans, that’s the sort of horrible negative campaigning that goes down well over there.

    Keep it positive, especially when you’re in the lead.
    An amusing thing I’ve heard over the years - people decrying negative campaigning. Who will, in the next sentence, start ranting about Maggie Thatcher, destroying the NHS etc.

    It must be one of those irregular verbs.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,857
    edited July 2023

    Nigelb said:

    Euclice !

    We need more EU workers, admits leading Tory Brexiter
    George Eustice, the former environment secretary, is calling for a reciprocal visa scheme so that under-35s can work across the EU and Britain
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/jul/08/tory-brexiter-george-eustice-visas-young-eu-workers-labour-shortage

    So let me get this straight we imposed draconian economic sanctions on ourselves to specifically rid the nation of young EU migrant workers. And it worked like a dream. And now we want to encourage young EU workers back to the UK without reinstating any of the benefits we as a nation and as citizens of Europe cherished and lost by voting to specifically get rid of young migrant workers from the EU.
    It’s about discovering Stuart Rose spoke the (unacceptable) truth.

    Low end jobs had their wages suppressed by low/zero skill immigration.

    Now companies are facing a shortage of people prepared to work for minimum wage (or even less - see piece work). They may even be faced with investing in automation. See all the lunch places which are installing big screen self service tills in London etc…
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,735
    Dura_Ace said:



    Dura Ace says 'Hi'.

    In my significant experience British forces are not institutionally and culturally cruel in the way that the US (rapey), Australians (stone cold killers), Russians (everything) and Ukrainians (dank memes) are.

    They are, however, relentless and rapacious thieves who will steal anything from anyone (including each other) by means of coercion or deception.
    That's good to know. Kind of makes me proud.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,270
    edited July 2023
    ...

    Nigelb said:

    Euclice !

    We need more EU workers, admits leading Tory Brexiter
    George Eustice, the former environment secretary, is calling for a reciprocal visa scheme so that under-35s can work across the EU and Britain
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/jul/08/tory-brexiter-george-eustice-visas-young-eu-workers-labour-shortage

    So let me get this straight we imposed draconian economic sanctions on ourselves to specifically rid the nation of young EU migrant workers. And it worked like a dream. And now we want to encourage young EU workers back to the UK without reinstating any of the benefits we as a nation and as citizens of Europe cherished and lost by voting to specifically get rid of young migrant workers from the EU.
    It’s about discovering Stuart Rose spoke the (unacceptable) truth.

    Low end jobs had their wages suppressed by low/zero skill immigration.

    Now companies are facing a shortage of people prepared to work for minimum wage (or even less - see piece work). They may even be faced with investing in automation. See all the lunch places which are installing big screen self service tills in London etc…
    You have completely missed or ignored my point. We specifically voted to withdraw from all the benefits of EU membership to expel young low paid Europeans, and now we want them back, but without associating their return with reinstatement of the benefits WE lost in order to kick them out.
  • IcarusIcarus Posts: 993

    I'm not sure the Labour poster will help keep Savile out of the election.

    The picture of Saville in the Conservative T shirt should effectively trump that.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,833

    I'm not sure the Labour poster will help keep Savile out of the election.

    It’s designed to deliver a no score draw, not to cancel the match
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,857
    edited July 2023

    ...

    Nigelb said:

    Euclice !

    We need more EU workers, admits leading Tory Brexiter
    George Eustice, the former environment secretary, is calling for a reciprocal visa scheme so that under-35s can work across the EU and Britain
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/jul/08/tory-brexiter-george-eustice-visas-young-eu-workers-labour-shortage

    So let me get this straight we imposed draconian economic sanctions on ourselves to specifically rid the nation of young EU migrant workers. And it worked like a dream. And now we want to encourage young EU workers back to the UK without reinstating any of the benefits we as a nation and as citizens of Europe cherished and lost by voting to specifically get rid of young migrant workers from the EU.
    It’s about discovering Stuart Rose spoke the (unacceptable) truth.

    Low end jobs had their wages suppressed by low/zero skill immigration.

    Now companies are facing a shortage of people prepared to work for minimum wage (or even less - see piece work). They may even be faced with investing in automation. See all the lunch places which are installing big screen self service tills in London etc…
    You have completely missed or ignored my point. We specifically voted to withdraw from all the benefits of EU membership to expel young low paid Europeans, and now we want them back, but without associating their return with reinstatement of the benefits WE lost.
    No, I haven’t.

    I was just remarking on *why* this comment was being made by *this* politician.

    The U.K. economy has/had an addiction to ultra cheap labour. This is directly connected to the very poor productivity figures we have seen over the years. And the continued attempts at suppressing wages in the NHS.

    There are two approaches to resolve this - invest in productivity. Or get more cheap labour.

    Stuart Rose pointed this out in the referendum campaign. Probably foolishly.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,717
    Foxy said:

    ...

    Nigelb said:

    Euclice !

    We need more EU workers, admits leading Tory Brexiter
    George Eustice, the former environment secretary, is calling for a reciprocal visa scheme so that under-35s can work across the EU and Britain
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/jul/08/tory-brexiter-george-eustice-visas-young-eu-workers-labour-shortage

    So let me get this straight we imposed draconian economic sanctions on ourselves to specifically rid the nation of young EU migrant workers. And it worked like a dream. And now we want to encourage young EU workers back to the UK without reinstating any of the benefits we as a nation and as citizens of Europe cherished and lost by voting to specifically get rid of young migrant workers from the EU.
    It’s about discovering Stuart Rose spoke the (unacceptable) truth.

    Low end jobs had their wages suppressed by low/zero skill immigration.

    Now companies are facing a shortage of people prepared to work for minimum wage (or even less - see piece work). They may even be faced with investing in automation. See all the lunch places which are installing big screen self service tills in London etc…
    You have completely missed or ignored my point. We specifically voted to withdraw from all the benefits of EU membership to expel young low paid Europeans, and now we want them back, but without associating their return with reinstatement of the benefits WE lost.
    Brexit has failed. Even the government recognises that now.

    Banging on about paedos, Rwanda and Trans is all they have left. It isn't much of a programme for government. Not least because on even these issues they not succeeding.

    They deserve oblivion, and look like they are going to get it.
    You seem to be completely missing the value of a return to a blue passport, albeit that it looks black, was made in France and sends you to the longest queue......but at least it is blue!
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,871

    Nigelb said:

    Euclice !

    We need more EU workers, admits leading Tory Brexiter
    George Eustice, the former environment secretary, is calling for a reciprocal visa scheme so that under-35s can work across the EU and Britain
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/jul/08/tory-brexiter-george-eustice-visas-young-eu-workers-labour-shortage

    So let me get this straight we imposed draconian economic sanctions on ourselves to specifically rid the nation of young EU migrant workers. And it worked like a dream. And now we want to encourage young EU workers back to the UK without reinstating any of the benefits we as a nation and as citizens of Europe cherished and lost by voting to specifically get rid of young migrant workers from the EU.
    It’s about discovering Stuart Rose spoke the (unacceptable) truth.

    Low end jobs had their wages suppressed by low/zero skill immigration.

    Now companies are facing a shortage of people prepared to work for minimum wage (or even less - see piece work). They may even be faced with investing in automation. See all the lunch places which are installing big screen self service tills in London etc…
    Bart would come along and demand all the businesses pay lots of wages or go bust - the will of the market. And he's right in the theoretical application of this. But in practice?

    There is minimal automation that can remove jobs from manual labour roles, whether they be picking fruit or picking orders or caring for our unwanted elderly or making you a twatty coffee in Starbucks. What there is can't be afforded by these businesses.

    So we wither find them low wage labour or we lose all these businesses. "Just pay more" is fine, except that smashes prices ever higher and people can't afford stuff as it is.

    We need a wholesale redrawing of the corporate taxation map. Only give companies low taxes if they pay and invest more. But we can't do that as socialism or whatever. So we let Starbucks both pay starvation wages and pay no taxes.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,871
    Icarus said:

    I'm not sure the Labour poster will help keep Savile out of the election.

    The picture of Saville in the Conservative T shirt should effectively trump that.
    SUNAK: I know which party was a friend of Saville Mr Speaker. The party of the man who let him off!
    STARMER: Ahem

  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,455

    Betting Post

    F1: pre-race ramble, Piastri fanboy edition:
    https://enormo-haddock.blogspot.com/2023/07/uk-pre-race-2023.html

    Also backed him at 2.55 to win group 2 (Albon, Stroll, Ocon, Gasly) in addition to the podium bet.

    The Piastri bet is a good one, no-one should be 15 to finish where they started, even if two Ferraris and two Mercedes immediately behind have ideas of moving up to claim that third step on the podium.

    If he wants to do something really useful though, he can bundle Verstappen off into the kitty litter at the first corner, ensuring a great race for the 160,000 people watching - it’s the largest ticketed sporting audience in the UK, and second only to the Glastonbury Festival for attendance.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,270
    ...

    Foxy said:

    ...

    Nigelb said:

    Euclice !

    We need more EU workers, admits leading Tory Brexiter
    George Eustice, the former environment secretary, is calling for a reciprocal visa scheme so that under-35s can work across the EU and Britain
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/jul/08/tory-brexiter-george-eustice-visas-young-eu-workers-labour-shortage

    So let me get this straight we imposed draconian economic sanctions on ourselves to specifically rid the nation of young EU migrant workers. And it worked like a dream. And now we want to encourage young EU workers back to the UK without reinstating any of the benefits we as a nation and as citizens of Europe cherished and lost by voting to specifically get rid of young migrant workers from the EU.
    It’s about discovering Stuart Rose spoke the (unacceptable) truth.

    Low end jobs had their wages suppressed by low/zero skill immigration.

    Now companies are facing a shortage of people prepared to work for minimum wage (or even less - see piece work). They may even be faced with investing in automation. See all the lunch places which are installing big screen self service tills in London etc…
    You have completely missed or ignored my point. We specifically voted to withdraw from all the benefits of EU membership to expel young low paid Europeans, and now we want them back, but without associating their return with reinstatement of the benefits WE lost.
    Brexit has failed. Even the government recognises that now.

    Banging on about paedos, Rwanda and Trans is all they have left. It isn't much of a programme for government. Not least because on even these issues they not succeeding.

    They deserve oblivion, and look like they are going to get it.
    You seem to be completely missing the value of a return to a blue passport, albeit that it looks black, was made in France and sends you to the longest queue......but at least it is blue!
    Eustice's demand is as ironic as reverting back to a maroon passport and having to remain in the longest queue.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,455

    Nigelb said:

    Euclice !

    We need more EU workers, admits leading Tory Brexiter
    George Eustice, the former environment secretary, is calling for a reciprocal visa scheme so that under-35s can work across the EU and Britain
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/jul/08/tory-brexiter-george-eustice-visas-young-eu-workers-labour-shortage

    So let me get this straight we imposed draconian economic sanctions on ourselves to specifically rid the nation of young EU migrant workers. And it worked like a dream. And now we want to encourage young EU workers back to the UK without reinstating any of the benefits we as a nation and as citizens of Europe cherished and lost by voting to specifically get rid of young migrant workers from the EU.
    It’s about discovering Stuart Rose spoke the (unacceptable) truth.

    Low end jobs had their wages suppressed by low/zero skill immigration.

    Now companies are facing a shortage of people prepared to work for minimum wage (or even less - see piece work). They may even be faced with investing in automation. See all the lunch places which are installing big screen self service tills in London etc…
    Bart would come along and demand all the businesses pay lots of wages or go bust - the will of the market. And he's right in the theoretical application of this. But in practice?

    There is minimal automation that can remove jobs from manual labour roles, whether they be picking fruit or picking orders or caring for our unwanted elderly or making you a twatty coffee in Starbucks. What there is can't be afforded by these businesses.

    So we wither find them low wage labour or we lose all these businesses. "Just pay more" is fine, except that smashes prices ever higher and people can't afford stuff as it is.

    We need a wholesale redrawing of the corporate taxation map. Only give companies low taxes if they pay and invest more. But we can't do that as socialism or whatever. So we let Starbucks both pay starvation wages and pay no taxes.
    Alternatively, we make do with only 20 Starbucks per square mile in London, instead of the 30 we have now.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,270

    ...

    Nigelb said:

    Euclice !

    We need more EU workers, admits leading Tory Brexiter
    George Eustice, the former environment secretary, is calling for a reciprocal visa scheme so that under-35s can work across the EU and Britain
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/jul/08/tory-brexiter-george-eustice-visas-young-eu-workers-labour-shortage

    So let me get this straight we imposed draconian economic sanctions on ourselves to specifically rid the nation of young EU migrant workers. And it worked like a dream. And now we want to encourage young EU workers back to the UK without reinstating any of the benefits we as a nation and as citizens of Europe cherished and lost by voting to specifically get rid of young migrant workers from the EU.
    It’s about discovering Stuart Rose spoke the (unacceptable) truth.

    Low end jobs had their wages suppressed by low/zero skill immigration.

    Now companies are facing a shortage of people prepared to work for minimum wage (or even less - see piece work). They may even be faced with investing in automation. See all the lunch places which are installing big screen self service tills in London etc…
    You have completely missed or ignored my point. We specifically voted to withdraw from all the benefits of EU membership to expel young low paid Europeans, and now we want them back, but without associating their return with reinstatement of the benefits WE lost.
    No, I haven’t.

    I was just remarking on *why* this comment was being made by *this* politician.

    The U.K. economy has/had an addiction to ultra cheap labour. This is directly connected to the very poor productivity figures we have seen over the years. And the continued attempts at suppressing wages in the NHS.

    There are two approaches to resolve this - invest in productivity. Or get more cheap labour.

    Stuart Rose pointed this out in the referendum campaign. Probably foolishly.
    But any fool could see that. Even Boris Johnson, who promised to fill the Labour shortfalls by importing "our friends from the Indian Sub-Continent" to take up the slack.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,503

    Foxy said:

    ...

    Nigelb said:

    Euclice !

    We need more EU workers, admits leading Tory Brexiter
    George Eustice, the former environment secretary, is calling for a reciprocal visa scheme so that under-35s can work across the EU and Britain
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/jul/08/tory-brexiter-george-eustice-visas-young-eu-workers-labour-shortage

    So let me get this straight we imposed draconian economic sanctions on ourselves to specifically rid the nation of young EU migrant workers. And it worked like a dream. And now we want to encourage young EU workers back to the UK without reinstating any of the benefits we as a nation and as citizens of Europe cherished and lost by voting to specifically get rid of young migrant workers from the EU.
    It’s about discovering Stuart Rose spoke the (unacceptable) truth.

    Low end jobs had their wages suppressed by low/zero skill immigration.

    Now companies are facing a shortage of people prepared to work for minimum wage (or even less - see piece work). They may even be faced with investing in automation. See all the lunch places which are installing big screen self service tills in London etc…
    You have completely missed or ignored my point. We specifically voted to withdraw from all the benefits of EU membership to expel young low paid Europeans, and now we want them back, but without associating their return with reinstatement of the benefits WE lost.
    Brexit has failed. Even the government recognises that now.

    Banging on about paedos, Rwanda and Trans is all they have left. It isn't much of a programme for government. Not least because on even these issues they not succeeding.

    They deserve oblivion, and look like they are going to get it.
    You seem to be completely missing the value of a return to a blue passport, albeit that it looks black, was made in France and sends you to the longest queue......but at least it is blue!
    That and Imperial measures, obviously.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 62,873
    Good morning

    On topic - I really hope that the political debate rises above this level and from all sides

    And Jenrick is consigned to history by his electorate at GE24
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,857

    Nigelb said:

    Euclice !

    We need more EU workers, admits leading Tory Brexiter
    George Eustice, the former environment secretary, is calling for a reciprocal visa scheme so that under-35s can work across the EU and Britain
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/jul/08/tory-brexiter-george-eustice-visas-young-eu-workers-labour-shortage

    So let me get this straight we imposed draconian economic sanctions on ourselves to specifically rid the nation of young EU migrant workers. And it worked like a dream. And now we want to encourage young EU workers back to the UK without reinstating any of the benefits we as a nation and as citizens of Europe cherished and lost by voting to specifically get rid of young migrant workers from the EU.
    It’s about discovering Stuart Rose spoke the (unacceptable) truth.

    Low end jobs had their wages suppressed by low/zero skill immigration.

    Now companies are facing a shortage of people prepared to work for minimum wage (or even less - see piece work). They may even be faced with investing in automation. See all the lunch places which are installing big screen self service tills in London etc…
    Bart would come along and demand all the businesses pay lots of wages or go bust - the will of the market. And he's right in the theoretical application of this. But in practice?

    There is minimal automation that can remove jobs from manual labour roles, whether they be picking fruit or picking orders or caring for our unwanted elderly or making you a twatty coffee in Starbucks. What there is can't be afforded by these businesses.

    So we wither find them low wage labour or we lose all these businesses. "Just pay more" is fine, except that smashes prices ever higher and people can't afford stuff as it is.

    We need a wholesale redrawing of the corporate taxation map. Only give companies low taxes if they pay and invest more. But we can't do that as socialism or whatever. So we let Starbucks both pay starvation wages and pay no taxes.
    The recent usage of tax write offs for investment in productivity are one of the few sensible ideas from this government.

    There is, in fact, a whole array of automation that can reduce manual labour. The recent advances in robotics, vision and environment manipulation open up a range of possibilities - soft fruit picking is already being automated in some countries.

    Warehouse automation is reaching picking now - one Japanese automation company is showcasing a zero human* warehouse. Boxed up cargo goes in, individual packages to customers goes out.

    Similarly, the first steps are being taken in elderly care. A relative was involved in a trial of a “smart” bed lift robot.

    Starbucks are spending a fortune on automation research. The issue there is the “artisan” thing - people want to have coffee manually made. They will need to pay more for that, if so.

    *what this actually means is having a small, highly trained engineer crew on site, to fix anything if it goes wrong, for course.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,503
    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    Euclice !

    We need more EU workers, admits leading Tory Brexiter
    George Eustice, the former environment secretary, is calling for a reciprocal visa scheme so that under-35s can work across the EU and Britain
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/jul/08/tory-brexiter-george-eustice-visas-young-eu-workers-labour-shortage

    So let me get this straight we imposed draconian economic sanctions on ourselves to specifically rid the nation of young EU migrant workers. And it worked like a dream. And now we want to encourage young EU workers back to the UK without reinstating any of the benefits we as a nation and as citizens of Europe cherished and lost by voting to specifically get rid of young migrant workers from the EU.
    It’s about discovering Stuart Rose spoke the (unacceptable) truth.

    Low end jobs had their wages suppressed by low/zero skill immigration.

    Now companies are facing a shortage of people prepared to work for minimum wage (or even less - see piece work). They may even be faced with investing in automation. See all the lunch places which are installing big screen self service tills in London etc…
    Bart would come along and demand all the businesses pay lots of wages or go bust - the will of the market. And he's right in the theoretical application of this. But in practice?

    There is minimal automation that can remove jobs from manual labour roles, whether they be picking fruit or picking orders or caring for our unwanted elderly or making you a twatty coffee in Starbucks. What there is can't be afforded by these businesses.

    So we wither find them low wage labour or we lose all these businesses. "Just pay more" is fine, except that smashes prices ever higher and people can't afford stuff as it is.

    We need a wholesale redrawing of the corporate taxation map. Only give companies low taxes if they pay and invest more. But we can't do that as socialism or whatever. So we let Starbucks both pay starvation wages and pay no taxes.
    Alternatively, we make do with only 20 Starbucks per square mile in London, instead of the 30 we have now.
    I think we can cope with fewer Starbucks, but can we cope with fewer workers in Social Care? Or a 25+% rise in the cost of Social Care?
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 10,851
    How to make Britain more entrepreneurial: https://www.colorado.edu/today/2018/07/25/cat-borne-parasite-might-just-make-you-more-entrepreneurial

    The answer is more cats.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,871

    ...

    Nigelb said:

    Euclice !

    We need more EU workers, admits leading Tory Brexiter
    George Eustice, the former environment secretary, is calling for a reciprocal visa scheme so that under-35s can work across the EU and Britain
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/jul/08/tory-brexiter-george-eustice-visas-young-eu-workers-labour-shortage

    So let me get this straight we imposed draconian economic sanctions on ourselves to specifically rid the nation of young EU migrant workers. And it worked like a dream. And now we want to encourage young EU workers back to the UK without reinstating any of the benefits we as a nation and as citizens of Europe cherished and lost by voting to specifically get rid of young migrant workers from the EU.
    It’s about discovering Stuart Rose spoke the (unacceptable) truth.

    Low end jobs had their wages suppressed by low/zero skill immigration.

    Now companies are facing a shortage of people prepared to work for minimum wage (or even less - see piece work). They may even be faced with investing in automation. See all the lunch places which are installing big screen self service tills in London etc…
    You have completely missed or ignored my point. We specifically voted to withdraw from all the benefits of EU membership to expel young low paid Europeans, and now we want them back, but without associating their return with reinstatement of the benefits WE lost.
    No, I haven’t.

    I was just remarking on *why* this comment was being made by *this* politician.

    The U.K. economy has/had an addiction to ultra cheap labour. This is directly connected to the very poor productivity figures we have seen over the years. And the continued attempts at suppressing wages in the NHS.

    There are two approaches to resolve this - invest in productivity. Or get more cheap labour.

    Stuart Rose pointed this out in the referendum campaign. Probably foolishly.
    But any fool could see that. Even Boris Johnson, who promised to fill the Labour shortfalls by importing "our friends from the Indian Sub-Continent" to take up the slack.
    Brexit voters didn't see that, at least the clump of them who explicitly voted Brexit to cut migration. They wanted less people from abroad taking their jobs and making their schools and hospitals full up. They wanted less Poles and Romanians and Muslims.

    As I've been pointing out on here for years, Brits are not replacing departing forrin working in care homes and factories and the field. We don't want these jobs - which is why we needed migrant labour in the first place. And not just unskilled - anyone remember how you couldn't get a plumber or a sparky 20 years ago? Our people stopped wanting to work. And they still don't.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,857
    A
    Foxy said:

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    Euclice !

    We need more EU workers, admits leading Tory Brexiter
    George Eustice, the former environment secretary, is calling for a reciprocal visa scheme so that under-35s can work across the EU and Britain
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/jul/08/tory-brexiter-george-eustice-visas-young-eu-workers-labour-shortage

    So let me get this straight we imposed draconian economic sanctions on ourselves to specifically rid the nation of young EU migrant workers. And it worked like a dream. And now we want to encourage young EU workers back to the UK without reinstating any of the benefits we as a nation and as citizens of Europe cherished and lost by voting to specifically get rid of young migrant workers from the EU.
    It’s about discovering Stuart Rose spoke the (unacceptable) truth.

    Low end jobs had their wages suppressed by low/zero skill immigration.

    Now companies are facing a shortage of people prepared to work for minimum wage (or even less - see piece work). They may even be faced with investing in automation. See all the lunch places which are installing big screen self service tills in London etc…
    Bart would come along and demand all the businesses pay lots of wages or go bust - the will of the market. And he's right in the theoretical application of this. But in practice?

    There is minimal automation that can remove jobs from manual labour roles, whether they be picking fruit or picking orders or caring for our unwanted elderly or making you a twatty coffee in Starbucks. What there is can't be afforded by these businesses.

    So we wither find them low wage labour or we lose all these businesses. "Just pay more" is fine, except that smashes prices ever higher and people can't afford stuff as it is.

    We need a wholesale redrawing of the corporate taxation map. Only give companies low taxes if they pay and invest more. But we can't do that as socialism or whatever. So we let Starbucks both pay starvation wages and pay no taxes.
    Alternatively, we make do with only 20 Starbucks per square mile in London, instead of the 30 we have now.
    I think we can cope with fewer Starbucks, but can we cope with fewer workers in Social Care? Or a 25+% rise in the cost of Social Care?
    We can fix Social Care, by reintroducing the slave laws they used have in Scotland, tying workers to their place of work.

    Alternatively, we could pay a living wage.

    Decisions, decisions.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,871
    edited July 2023

    Nigelb said:

    Euclice !

    We need more EU workers, admits leading Tory Brexiter
    George Eustice, the former environment secretary, is calling for a reciprocal visa scheme so that under-35s can work across the EU and Britain
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/jul/08/tory-brexiter-george-eustice-visas-young-eu-workers-labour-shortage

    So let me get this straight we imposed draconian economic sanctions on ourselves to specifically rid the nation of young EU migrant workers. And it worked like a dream. And now we want to encourage young EU workers back to the UK without reinstating any of the benefits we as a nation and as citizens of Europe cherished and lost by voting to specifically get rid of young migrant workers from the EU.
    It’s about discovering Stuart Rose spoke the (unacceptable) truth.

    Low end jobs had their wages suppressed by low/zero skill immigration.

    Now companies are facing a shortage of people prepared to work for minimum wage (or even less - see piece work). They may even be faced with investing in automation. See all the lunch places which are installing big screen self service tills in London etc…
    Bart would come along and demand all the businesses pay lots of wages or go bust - the will of the market. And he's right in the theoretical application of this. But in practice?

    There is minimal automation that can remove jobs from manual labour roles, whether they be picking fruit or picking orders or caring for our unwanted elderly or making you a twatty coffee in Starbucks. What there is can't be afforded by these businesses.

    So we wither find them low wage labour or we lose all these businesses. "Just pay more" is fine, except that smashes prices ever higher and people can't afford stuff as it is.

    We need a wholesale redrawing of the corporate taxation map. Only give companies low taxes if they pay and invest more. But we can't do that as socialism or whatever. So we let Starbucks both pay starvation wages and pay no taxes.
    The recent usage of tax write offs for investment in productivity are one of the few sensible ideas from this government.

    There is, in fact, a whole array of automation that can reduce manual labour. The recent advances in robotics, vision and environment manipulation open up a range of possibilities - soft fruit picking is already being automated in some countries.

    Warehouse automation is reaching picking now - one Japanese automation company is showcasing a zero human* warehouse. Boxed up cargo goes in, individual packages to customers goes out.

    Similarly, the first steps are being taken in elderly care. A relative was involved in a trial of a “smart” bed lift robot.

    Starbucks are spending a fortune on automation research. The issue there is the “artisan” thing - people want to have coffee manually made. They will need to pay more for that, if so.

    *what this actually means is having a small, highly trained engineer crew on site, to fix anything if it goes wrong, for course.
    I know automation is coming - which I why I referred to it being affordable. I don't think Starfucks have a hope though in charging £4 for a coffee prepared in a glorified Maxpax machine.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,717
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    ...

    Nigelb said:

    Euclice !

    We need more EU workers, admits leading Tory Brexiter
    George Eustice, the former environment secretary, is calling for a reciprocal visa scheme so that under-35s can work across the EU and Britain
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/jul/08/tory-brexiter-george-eustice-visas-young-eu-workers-labour-shortage

    So let me get this straight we imposed draconian economic sanctions on ourselves to specifically rid the nation of young EU migrant workers. And it worked like a dream. And now we want to encourage young EU workers back to the UK without reinstating any of the benefits we as a nation and as citizens of Europe cherished and lost by voting to specifically get rid of young migrant workers from the EU.
    It’s about discovering Stuart Rose spoke the (unacceptable) truth.

    Low end jobs had their wages suppressed by low/zero skill immigration.

    Now companies are facing a shortage of people prepared to work for minimum wage (or even less - see piece work). They may even be faced with investing in automation. See all the lunch places which are installing big screen self service tills in London etc…
    You have completely missed or ignored my point. We specifically voted to withdraw from all the benefits of EU membership to expel young low paid Europeans, and now we want them back, but without associating their return with reinstatement of the benefits WE lost.
    Brexit has failed. Even the government recognises that now.

    Banging on about paedos, Rwanda and Trans is all they have left. It isn't much of a programme for government. Not least because on even these issues they not succeeding.

    They deserve oblivion, and look like they are going to get it.
    You seem to be completely missing the value of a return to a blue passport, albeit that it looks black, was made in France and sends you to the longest queue......but at least it is blue!
    That and Imperial measures, obviously.
    Exactly and it wouldn't take too long to imagine a dozen more like that.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,735
    Mr. Sandpit, I kept wondering what's going on with the Piastri bet. It's eminently possible he'll go backwards, but 15 to hold position when the chap ahead is 2.25 to retain or lose on spot in the same car is just wrong.

    He's 67 to win, shorter than 8th starting Albon at 51.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,503

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    ...

    Nigelb said:

    Euclice !

    We need more EU workers, admits leading Tory Brexiter
    George Eustice, the former environment secretary, is calling for a reciprocal visa scheme so that under-35s can work across the EU and Britain
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/jul/08/tory-brexiter-george-eustice-visas-young-eu-workers-labour-shortage

    So let me get this straight we imposed draconian economic sanctions on ourselves to specifically rid the nation of young EU migrant workers. And it worked like a dream. And now we want to encourage young EU workers back to the UK without reinstating any of the benefits we as a nation and as citizens of Europe cherished and lost by voting to specifically get rid of young migrant workers from the EU.
    It’s about discovering Stuart Rose spoke the (unacceptable) truth.

    Low end jobs had their wages suppressed by low/zero skill immigration.

    Now companies are facing a shortage of people prepared to work for minimum wage (or even less - see piece work). They may even be faced with investing in automation. See all the lunch places which are installing big screen self service tills in London etc…
    You have completely missed or ignored my point. We specifically voted to withdraw from all the benefits of EU membership to expel young low paid Europeans, and now we want them back, but without associating their return with reinstatement of the benefits WE lost.
    Brexit has failed. Even the government recognises that now.

    Banging on about paedos, Rwanda and Trans is all they have left. It isn't much of a programme for government. Not least because on even these issues they not succeeding.

    They deserve oblivion, and look like they are going to get it.
    You seem to be completely missing the value of a return to a blue passport, albeit that it looks black, was made in France and sends you to the longest queue......but at least it is blue!
    That and Imperial measures, obviously.
    Exactly and it wouldn't take too long to imagine a dozen more like that.
    The government needs to go an extra mile.
  • NorthCadbollNorthCadboll Posts: 332
    There is a relevance to the Starmer-Savile issue you remoaners all conveniently forget.

    SKS constantly calls on the heads of private companies and public bodies to resign in respect of errors and mistakes made by the people who work for them. SKS however did not think that principle applies to him. He should have resigned over the seriously bad decision taken by his assistants at the CPS. He didn't and therefore he is applying double standards by calling on others to do what he was unwilling to do.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,857
    edited July 2023

    Nigelb said:

    Euclice !

    We need more EU workers, admits leading Tory Brexiter
    George Eustice, the former environment secretary, is calling for a reciprocal visa scheme so that under-35s can work across the EU and Britain
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/jul/08/tory-brexiter-george-eustice-visas-young-eu-workers-labour-shortage

    So let me get this straight we imposed draconian economic sanctions on ourselves to specifically rid the nation of young EU migrant workers. And it worked like a dream. And now we want to encourage young EU workers back to the UK without reinstating any of the benefits we as a nation and as citizens of Europe cherished and lost by voting to specifically get rid of young migrant workers from the EU.
    It’s about discovering Stuart Rose spoke the (unacceptable) truth.

    Low end jobs had their wages suppressed by low/zero skill immigration.

    Now companies are facing a shortage of people prepared to work for minimum wage (or even less - see piece work). They may even be faced with investing in automation. See all the lunch places which are installing big screen self service tills in London etc…
    Bart would come along and demand all the businesses pay lots of wages or go bust - the will of the market. And he's right in the theoretical application of this. But in practice?

    There is minimal automation that can remove jobs from manual labour roles, whether they be picking fruit or picking orders or caring for our unwanted elderly or making you a twatty coffee in Starbucks. What there is can't be afforded by these businesses.

    So we wither find them low wage labour or we lose all these businesses. "Just pay more" is fine, except that smashes prices ever higher and people can't afford stuff as it is.

    We need a wholesale redrawing of the corporate taxation map. Only give companies low taxes if they pay and invest more. But we can't do that as socialism or whatever. So we let Starbucks both pay starvation wages and pay no taxes.
    The recent usage of tax write offs for investment in productivity are one of the few sensible ideas from this government.

    There is, in fact, a whole array of automation that can reduce manual labour. The recent advances in robotics, vision and environment manipulation open up a range of possibilities - soft fruit picking is already being automated in some countries.

    Warehouse automation is reaching picking now - one Japanese automation company is showcasing a zero human* warehouse. Boxed up cargo goes in, individual packages to customers goes out.

    Similarly, the first steps are being taken in elderly care. A relative was involved in a trial of a “smart” bed lift robot.

    Starbucks are spending a fortune on automation research. The issue there is the “artisan” thing - people want to have coffee manually made. They will need to pay more for that, if so.

    *what this actually means is having a small, highly trained engineer crew on site, to fix anything if it goes wrong, for course.
    I know automation is coming - which I why I referred to it being affordable. I don't think Starfucks have a hope though in charging £4 for a coffee prepared in a glorified Maxpax machine.
    Hopefully, the future is

    1) decent machine made coffee as the cheap option. Perfectly possible.
    2) £x prices coffee that is hand made. And that won’t be Starbucks.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,700
    Heathener said:

    Good morning and I am back in Surrey, staying with a Conservative friend. I know, I know. She has never voted for any other party in her life.

    FWIW, anecfactually, she is utterly appalled by the Robert Jenrick action. I mean really, deeply, upset about it. In fact I had to try to get her to stop going on about it.

    So, @TSE you are right to call them out over this. With people like you around the tory party WILL one day come to its senses and return both to the centre and to decency.

    But right now? They are disappearing into a very dark alleyway. They are beginning to remind me of that shrivelled soul of Lord Voldemort in the final scenes of Harry Potter VIII.

    Inventive post I grant you.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,575
    Labour's smear against Sunak looks even worse. I think the next election could be one of the nastiest ever in terms of negative ads and slogans
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,503

    Nigelb said:

    Euclice !

    We need more EU workers, admits leading Tory Brexiter
    George Eustice, the former environment secretary, is calling for a reciprocal visa scheme so that under-35s can work across the EU and Britain
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/jul/08/tory-brexiter-george-eustice-visas-young-eu-workers-labour-shortage

    So let me get this straight we imposed draconian economic sanctions on ourselves to specifically rid the nation of young EU migrant workers. And it worked like a dream. And now we want to encourage young EU workers back to the UK without reinstating any of the benefits we as a nation and as citizens of Europe cherished and lost by voting to specifically get rid of young migrant workers from the EU.
    It’s about discovering Stuart Rose spoke the (unacceptable) truth.

    Low end jobs had their wages suppressed by low/zero skill immigration.

    Now companies are facing a shortage of people prepared to work for minimum wage (or even less - see piece work). They may even be faced with investing in automation. See all the lunch places which are installing big screen self service tills in London etc…
    Bart would come along and demand all the businesses pay lots of wages or go bust - the will of the market. And he's right in the theoretical application of this. But in practice?

    There is minimal automation that can remove jobs from manual labour roles, whether they be picking fruit or picking orders or caring for our unwanted elderly or making you a twatty coffee in Starbucks. What there is can't be afforded by these businesses.

    So we wither find them low wage labour or we lose all these businesses. "Just pay more" is fine, except that smashes prices ever higher and people can't afford stuff as it is.

    We need a wholesale redrawing of the corporate taxation map. Only give companies low taxes if they pay and invest more. But we can't do that as socialism or whatever. So we let Starbucks both pay starvation wages and pay no taxes.
    The recent usage of tax write offs for investment in productivity are one of the few sensible ideas from this government.

    There is, in fact, a whole array of automation that can reduce manual labour. The recent advances in robotics, vision and environment manipulation open up a range of possibilities - soft fruit picking is already being automated in some countries.

    Warehouse automation is reaching picking now - one Japanese automation company is showcasing a zero human* warehouse. Boxed up cargo goes in, individual packages to customers goes out.

    Similarly, the first steps are being taken in elderly care. A relative was involved in a trial of a “smart” bed lift robot.

    Starbucks are spending a fortune on automation research. The issue there is the “artisan” thing - people want to have coffee manually made. They will need to pay more for that, if so.

    *what this actually means is having a small, highly trained engineer crew on site, to fix anything if it goes wrong, for course.
    I know automation is coming - which I why I referred to it being affordable. I don't think Starfucks have a hope though in charging £4 for a coffee prepared in a glorified Maxpax machine.
    The cost of a coffee is really rental on a comfy place to sit and drink it for half an hour.

    Why people buy takeaway coffee at Starbucks prices is lost on me.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,455

    Sandpit said:

    I'm not sure the Labour poster will help keep Savile out of the election.

    Quite. Have Labour been hiring Americans, that’s the sort of horrible negative campaigning that goes down well over there.

    Keep it positive, especially when you’re in the lead.
    An amusing thing I’ve heard over the years - people decrying negative campaigning. Who will, in the next sentence, start ranting about Maggie Thatcher, destroying the NHS etc.

    It must be one of those irregular verbs.
    It’s a very irregular verb!

    We’ll see just how bad it can get, in the US election next year. Already the Trump and DeSantis camps are filled with always-online young staffers, who hate each other on Twitter for 24 hours a day.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,700
    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    Euclice !

    We need more EU workers, admits leading Tory Brexiter
    George Eustice, the former environment secretary, is calling for a reciprocal visa scheme so that under-35s can work across the EU and Britain
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/jul/08/tory-brexiter-george-eustice-visas-young-eu-workers-labour-shortage

    So let me get this straight we imposed draconian economic sanctions on ourselves to specifically rid the nation of young EU migrant workers. And it worked like a dream. And now we want to encourage young EU workers back to the UK without reinstating any of the benefits we as a nation and as citizens of Europe cherished and lost by voting to specifically get rid of young migrant workers from the EU.
    It’s about discovering Stuart Rose spoke the (unacceptable) truth.

    Low end jobs had their wages suppressed by low/zero skill immigration.

    Now companies are facing a shortage of people prepared to work for minimum wage (or even less - see piece work). They may even be faced with investing in automation. See all the lunch places which are installing big screen self service tills in London etc…
    Bart would come along and demand all the businesses pay lots of wages or go bust - the will of the market. And he's right in the theoretical application of this. But in practice?

    There is minimal automation that can remove jobs from manual labour roles, whether they be picking fruit or picking orders or caring for our unwanted elderly or making you a twatty coffee in Starbucks. What there is can't be afforded by these businesses.

    So we wither find them low wage labour or we lose all these businesses. "Just pay more" is fine, except that smashes prices ever higher and people can't afford stuff as it is.

    We need a wholesale redrawing of the corporate taxation map. Only give companies low taxes if they pay and invest more. But we can't do that as socialism or whatever. So we let Starbucks both pay starvation wages and pay no taxes.
    Alternatively, we make do with only 20 Starbucks per square mile in London, instead of the 30 we have now.
    Starbucks is the worst coffee chain horrible sharp tasting coffee.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,575
    edited July 2023

    Icarus said:

    I'm not sure the Labour poster will help keep Savile out of the election.

    The picture of Saville in the Conservative T shirt should effectively trump that.
    SUNAK: I know which party was a friend of Saville Mr Speaker. The party of the man who let him off!
    STARMER: Ahem

    That would be the same Saville Tony Blair invited for lunch at Chequers?
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2487217/Jimmy-Savile-harassed-music-boss-wife-Chequers-dinner-party-hosted-Tony-Blair.html

    Or the same Saville who did a party political broadcast for the Liberals with Jeremy Thorpe in the 1970s?https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1RN0BQsBsE
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,871
    edited July 2023

    Nigelb said:

    Euclice !

    We need more EU workers, admits leading Tory Brexiter
    George Eustice, the former environment secretary, is calling for a reciprocal visa scheme so that under-35s can work across the EU and Britain
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/jul/08/tory-brexiter-george-eustice-visas-young-eu-workers-labour-shortage

    So let me get this straight we imposed draconian economic sanctions on ourselves to specifically rid the nation of young EU migrant workers. And it worked like a dream. And now we want to encourage young EU workers back to the UK without reinstating any of the benefits we as a nation and as citizens of Europe cherished and lost by voting to specifically get rid of young migrant workers from the EU.
    It’s about discovering Stuart Rose spoke the (unacceptable) truth.

    Low end jobs had their wages suppressed by low/zero skill immigration.

    Now companies are facing a shortage of people prepared to work for minimum wage (or even less - see piece work). They may even be faced with investing in automation. See all the lunch places which are installing big screen self service tills in London etc…
    Bart would come along and demand all the businesses pay lots of wages or go bust - the will of the market. And he's right in the theoretical application of this. But in practice?

    There is minimal automation that can remove jobs from manual labour roles, whether they be picking fruit or picking orders or caring for our unwanted elderly or making you a twatty coffee in Starbucks. What there is can't be afforded by these businesses.

    So we wither find them low wage labour or we lose all these businesses. "Just pay more" is fine, except that smashes prices ever higher and people can't afford stuff as it is.

    We need a wholesale redrawing of the corporate taxation map. Only give companies low taxes if they pay and invest more. But we can't do that as socialism or whatever. So we let Starbucks both pay starvation wages and pay no taxes.
    The recent usage of tax write offs for investment in productivity are one of the few sensible ideas from this government.

    There is, in fact, a whole array of automation that can reduce manual labour. The recent advances in robotics, vision and environment manipulation open up a range of possibilities - soft fruit picking is already being automated in some countries.

    Warehouse automation is reaching picking now - one Japanese automation company is showcasing a zero human* warehouse. Boxed up cargo goes in, individual packages to customers goes out.

    Similarly, the first steps are being taken in elderly care. A relative was involved in a trial of a “smart” bed lift robot.

    Starbucks are spending a fortune on automation research. The issue there is the “artisan” thing - people want to have coffee manually made. They will need to pay more for that, if so.

    *what this actually means is having a small, highly trained engineer crew on site, to fix anything if it goes wrong, for course.
    I know automation is coming - which I why I referred to it being affordable. I don't think Starfucks have a hope though in charging £4 for a coffee prepared in a glorified Maxpax machine.
    Hopefully, the future is

    1) decent machine made coffee as the cheap option. Perfectly possible.
    2) £x prices coffee that is hand made. And that won’t be Starbucks.
    How does that work for Starbucks? They want to sell the cheapest coffee at the most expensive price. The correct price of any product is what consumers are willing to pay for it, and Fux will do everything they can to market the idea that cheap cost robo coffee is exactly as the now fired Baristas used to make it.

    Won't someone think of the American shareholders?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,575
    edited July 2023
    Heathener said:

    Good morning and I am back in Surrey, staying with a Conservative friend. I know, I know. She has never voted for any other party in her life.

    FWIW, anecfactually, she is utterly appalled by the Robert Jenrick action. I mean really, deeply, upset about it. In fact I had to try to get her to stop going on about it.

    So, @TSE you are right to call them out over this. With people like you around the tory party WILL one day come to its senses and return both to the centre and to decency.

    But right now? They are disappearing into a very dark alleyway. They are beginning to remind me of that shrivelled soul of Lord Voldemort in the final scenes of Harry Potter VIII.

    TSE isn't a Tory, he is a LD now.

    TSE didn't even vote Tory in 2019 when they won a landslide or even in 2017 under Theresa May.

    Albeit he is still a big Osborne fan and probably would have given his right arm for an invite to his wedding yesterday
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,871
    HYUFD said:

    Labour's smear against Sunak looks even worse. I think the next election could be one of the nastiest ever in terms of negative ads and slogans

    People can't trust Labour over the Saville scandal. Time for them to vote for the party that put Saville in his place


    Or - radical idea - why not campaign on actual policies? Oh that's right, your party doesn't have any of those, so smears it will have to be.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,857

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    Euclice !

    We need more EU workers, admits leading Tory Brexiter
    George Eustice, the former environment secretary, is calling for a reciprocal visa scheme so that under-35s can work across the EU and Britain
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/jul/08/tory-brexiter-george-eustice-visas-young-eu-workers-labour-shortage

    So let me get this straight we imposed draconian economic sanctions on ourselves to specifically rid the nation of young EU migrant workers. And it worked like a dream. And now we want to encourage young EU workers back to the UK without reinstating any of the benefits we as a nation and as citizens of Europe cherished and lost by voting to specifically get rid of young migrant workers from the EU.
    It’s about discovering Stuart Rose spoke the (unacceptable) truth.

    Low end jobs had their wages suppressed by low/zero skill immigration.

    Now companies are facing a shortage of people prepared to work for minimum wage (or even less - see piece work). They may even be faced with investing in automation. See all the lunch places which are installing big screen self service tills in London etc…
    Bart would come along and demand all the businesses pay lots of wages or go bust - the will of the market. And he's right in the theoretical application of this. But in practice?

    There is minimal automation that can remove jobs from manual labour roles, whether they be picking fruit or picking orders or caring for our unwanted elderly or making you a twatty coffee in Starbucks. What there is can't be afforded by these businesses.

    So we wither find them low wage labour or we lose all these businesses. "Just pay more" is fine, except that smashes prices ever higher and people can't afford stuff as it is.

    We need a wholesale redrawing of the corporate taxation map. Only give companies low taxes if they pay and invest more. But we can't do that as socialism or whatever. So we let Starbucks both pay starvation wages and pay no taxes.
    Alternatively, we make do with only 20 Starbucks per square mile in London, instead of the 30 we have now.
    Starbucks is the worst coffee chain horrible sharp tasting coffee.
    Interestingly, McDonalds of all places, used to win blind tastings of Big Chain coffee.

    Starbucks is just bland.

    One thing that amuses, is people going to artisan places that advertise they use the strongest roasts. Then half full their cup with sugar to reduce the harshness of the taste.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,503

    There is a relevance to the Starmer-Savile issue you remoaners all conveniently forget.

    SKS constantly calls on the heads of private companies and public bodies to resign in respect of errors and mistakes made by the people who work for them. SKS however did not think that principle applies to him. He should have resigned over the seriously bad decision taken by his assistants at the CPS. He didn't and therefore he is applying double standards by calling on others to do what he was unwilling to do.

    This is the reason given in the actual report:

    "On a number of occasions, Surrey Police consulted the Crown Prosecution Service for advice about the allegations that they were investigating. In October 2009, the CPS reviewing lawyer with responsibility for the cases advised that since none of the complainants was "prepared to support any police action", no prosecutions could be brought."

    https://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/ukgwa/20130703160030/http:/www.cps.gov.uk/news/latest_news/dpp_statement_about_savile_cases/

    There were notable police failures, and failures of safeguarding at a number of institutions such as Stoke Mandeville Hospital and the BBC, but that actually is the correct decision by the CPS itself.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,857

    Nigelb said:

    Euclice !

    We need more EU workers, admits leading Tory Brexiter
    George Eustice, the former environment secretary, is calling for a reciprocal visa scheme so that under-35s can work across the EU and Britain
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/jul/08/tory-brexiter-george-eustice-visas-young-eu-workers-labour-shortage

    So let me get this straight we imposed draconian economic sanctions on ourselves to specifically rid the nation of young EU migrant workers. And it worked like a dream. And now we want to encourage young EU workers back to the UK without reinstating any of the benefits we as a nation and as citizens of Europe cherished and lost by voting to specifically get rid of young migrant workers from the EU.
    It’s about discovering Stuart Rose spoke the (unacceptable) truth.

    Low end jobs had their wages suppressed by low/zero skill immigration.

    Now companies are facing a shortage of people prepared to work for minimum wage (or even less - see piece work). They may even be faced with investing in automation. See all the lunch places which are installing big screen self service tills in London etc…
    Bart would come along and demand all the businesses pay lots of wages or go bust - the will of the market. And he's right in the theoretical application of this. But in practice?

    There is minimal automation that can remove jobs from manual labour roles, whether they be picking fruit or picking orders or caring for our unwanted elderly or making you a twatty coffee in Starbucks. What there is can't be afforded by these businesses.

    So we wither find them low wage labour or we lose all these businesses. "Just pay more" is fine, except that smashes prices ever higher and people can't afford stuff as it is.

    We need a wholesale redrawing of the corporate taxation map. Only give companies low taxes if they pay and invest more. But we can't do that as socialism or whatever. So we let Starbucks both pay starvation wages and pay no taxes.
    The recent usage of tax write offs for investment in productivity are one of the few sensible ideas from this government.

    There is, in fact, a whole array of automation that can reduce manual labour. The recent advances in robotics, vision and environment manipulation open up a range of possibilities - soft fruit picking is already being automated in some countries.

    Warehouse automation is reaching picking now - one Japanese automation company is showcasing a zero human* warehouse. Boxed up cargo goes in, individual packages to customers goes out.

    Similarly, the first steps are being taken in elderly care. A relative was involved in a trial of a “smart” bed lift robot.

    Starbucks are spending a fortune on automation research. The issue there is the “artisan” thing - people want to have coffee manually made. They will need to pay more for that, if so.

    *what this actually means is having a small, highly trained engineer crew on site, to fix anything if it goes wrong, for course.
    I know automation is coming - which I why I referred to it being affordable. I don't think Starfucks have a hope though in charging £4 for a coffee prepared in a glorified Maxpax machine.
    Hopefully, the future is

    1) decent machine made coffee as the cheap option. Perfectly possible.
    2) £x prices coffee that is hand made. And that won’t be Starbucks.
    How does that work for Starbucks? They want to sell the cheapest coffee at the most expensive price. The correct price of any product is what consumers are willing to pay for it, and Fux will do everything they can to market the idea that cheap cost robo coffee is exactly as the now fired Baristas used to make it.

    Won't someone think of the American shareholders?
    I will, but I don’t care. Their risk.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,717
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    ...

    Nigelb said:

    Euclice !

    We need more EU workers, admits leading Tory Brexiter
    George Eustice, the former environment secretary, is calling for a reciprocal visa scheme so that under-35s can work across the EU and Britain
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/jul/08/tory-brexiter-george-eustice-visas-young-eu-workers-labour-shortage

    So let me get this straight we imposed draconian economic sanctions on ourselves to specifically rid the nation of young EU migrant workers. And it worked like a dream. And now we want to encourage young EU workers back to the UK without reinstating any of the benefits we as a nation and as citizens of Europe cherished and lost by voting to specifically get rid of young migrant workers from the EU.
    It’s about discovering Stuart Rose spoke the (unacceptable) truth.

    Low end jobs had their wages suppressed by low/zero skill immigration.

    Now companies are facing a shortage of people prepared to work for minimum wage (or even less - see piece work). They may even be faced with investing in automation. See all the lunch places which are installing big screen self service tills in London etc…
    You have completely missed or ignored my point. We specifically voted to withdraw from all the benefits of EU membership to expel young low paid Europeans, and now we want them back, but without associating their return with reinstatement of the benefits WE lost.
    Brexit has failed. Even the government recognises that now.

    Banging on about paedos, Rwanda and Trans is all they have left. It isn't much of a programme for government. Not least because on even these issues they not succeeding.

    They deserve oblivion, and look like they are going to get it.
    You seem to be completely missing the value of a return to a blue passport, albeit that it looks black, was made in France and sends you to the longest queue......but at least it is blue!
    That and Imperial measures, obviously.
    Exactly and it wouldn't take too long to imagine a dozen more like that.
    The government needs to go an extra mile.
    It is hard to fathom but inflation is making the spending power of the pound drop like a stone. Thats the chain that means this govt can last fur long. They made a rod for their own back by ditching the Libdems. Cable was a good link and in a different league.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,854
    edited July 2023
    James Johnson of JL Parttners is a complete fraud. His focus groups are nonsense. On the basis of one focus group containing 7 people he predicted tthree by-election results.

    Wrongly of course!

    The radio 4 discussion between him and Peter Kellner is worth listening to. 'You're raising your eyebrows again Peter!' said Evan Davis.



  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,380
    Good morning, one and all.
    I grumbled yesterday about a large picture, putting me off my food, and the same applies today. Please if we going to have pictures could we have them of more appropriate size.
    Incidentally, hat-tip to HYUFD for digging back into the archives and finding the video of Jeremy Thorpe with Jimmy Savile.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,270
    edited July 2023
    HYUFD said:

    Labour's smear against Sunak looks even worse. I think the next election could be one of the nastiest ever in terms of negative ads and slogans

    Labour's negative poster campaign was unfortunate and best left unpublished. But to suggest Johnson's scurrilous slur against Starmer, now taken on by Sunak it would seem, is a lesser of two evils is absurd.

    As a committed Christian would you condone Sunak promoting the lies about Starmer and Savile even if it looks like winning him (and you) the next election?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,751
    Sigh, does anybody even notice this nonsense other than PB obsessives? I seriously doubt it. But if you want to feel morally superior or simply wish to condemn there is no shortage of material. It just makes for slightly dull threads.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,503
    Roger said:

    James Johnson of JL Parttners is a complete fraud. His focus groups are nonsense. On the basis of one focus group containing 7 people he predicted tthree by-election results.

    Wrongly of course!

    The radio 4 discussion between him and Peter Kellner is worth listening to. 'You're raising your eyebrows again Peter!' said Evan Davis.

    Though:

    Uxbridge & South Ruislip By-Election Voting Intention:

    LAB: 41% (+3)
    CON: 33% (-20)
    LDM: 6% (=)
    REC: 5% (New)
    GRN: 4% (+2)
    IND: 4% (New)
    Others: 7% (+6)

    Via @JLPartnersPolls, 26 Jun - 6 Jul.
    Changes w/ GE2019.

    Selby & Ainsty By-Election Voting Intention:

    LAB: 41% (+16)
    CON: 29% (-31)
    RFM: 8% (New)
    LDM: 6% (-3)
    GRN: 6% (+3)
    YSP: 4% (+1)
    Others: 6% (New)

    Via @JLPartnersPolls, 26 Jun - 6 Jul.
    Changes w/ GE2019.


  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,152
    On thread, remember the full Stuart Rose quote:

    If you are short of labour, the price of labour will go up, so yes, but that is not necessarily a good thing.

    There's not much benefit of wages going up increases prices in line, as we're seeing. The question the "cheap labour addict" theory proponents never seemed to ask themselves is whether it was possible to transition to a higher investment/more productivity model without Brexit, or whether Brexit would help in that endeavour anyway.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,439
    edited July 2023
    HYUFD said:

    Heathener said:

    Good morning and I am back in Surrey, staying with a Conservative friend. I know, I know. She has never voted for any other party in her life.

    FWIW, anecfactually, she is utterly appalled by the Robert Jenrick action. I mean really, deeply, upset about it. In fact I had to try to get her to stop going on about it.

    So, @TSE you are right to call them out over this. With people like you around the tory party WILL one day come to its senses and return both to the centre and to decency.

    But right now? They are disappearing into a very dark alleyway. They are beginning to remind me of that shrivelled soul of Lord Voldemort in the final scenes of Harry Potter VIII.

    TSE isn't a Tory, he is a LD now.

    TSE didn't even vote Tory in 2019 when they won a landslide or even in 2017 under Theresa May.

    Albeit he is still a big Osborne fan and probably would have given his right arm for an invite to his wedding yesterday
    What makes you think I didn’t get an invite to the wedding?

    Sadly it clashed with an Ashes test match I have tickets to.

    I’d miss my own wedding to watch The Ashes.

    PS I’m not voting Lib Dem you Plaid Cymru voter.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,575
    edited July 2023

    HYUFD said:

    Heathener said:

    Good morning and I am back in Surrey, staying with a Conservative friend. I know, I know. She has never voted for any other party in her life.

    FWIW, anecfactually, she is utterly appalled by the Robert Jenrick action. I mean really, deeply, upset about it. In fact I had to try to get her to stop going on about it.

    So, @TSE you are right to call them out over this. With people like you around the tory party WILL one day come to its senses and return both to the centre and to decency.

    But right now? They are disappearing into a very dark alleyway. They are beginning to remind me of that shrivelled soul of Lord Voldemort in the final scenes of Harry Potter VIII.

    TSE isn't a Tory, he is a LD now.

    TSE didn't even vote Tory in 2019 when they won a landslide or even in 2017 under Theresa May.

    Albeit he is still a big Osborne fan and probably would have given his right arm for an invite to his wedding yesterday
    What makes you think I didn’t get an invite to the wedding?

    Sadly it clashed with an Ashes test match I have tickets to.

    I’d miss my own wedding to watch The Ashes.
    I am sure George was very hurt you put a cricket match above his wedding, the political marriage of the year.

    Indeed for once Just Stop Oil didn't disrupt the sport but Osborne's wedding instead yesterday, with a protestor throwing orange confetti over him as he left the church with his new wife
    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/george-osborne-just-stop-oil-confetti-b2371867.html
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,152
    On topic, Johnson had a lightness of touch (52% of what he said being for bants anyway) which allowed him to make cruel insults and get away with it. Sunak is just too strait laced.

    It's one thing for the class clown to be rude, another for the school swot. And if Rishi loses his swotty reputation, what has he got left?
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,871
    edited July 2023

    Good morning, one and all.
    I grumbled yesterday about a large picture, putting me off my food, and the same applies today. Please if we going to have pictures could we have them of more appropriate size.
    Incidentally, hat-tip to HYUFD for digging back into the archives and finding the video of Jeremy Thorpe with Jimmy Savile.

    Apologies - they look an appropriate size on my phone!

    I promise to no longer show the picture of the former DJ disgraced by his association with the C*servative P*rty
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,922

    I know automation is coming - which I why I referred to it being affordable. I don't think Starfucks have a hope though in charging £4 for a coffee prepared in a glorified Maxpax machine.

    The 2 nearest Costa "outlets" to my house are machines. I have no idea how much they cost though
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,922
    Nigelb said:

    George Eustice, the former environment secretary, is calling for a reciprocal visa scheme so that under-35s can work across the EU and Britain

    Needs a catchy name.

    Something like Unfettered Mobility
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,256

    ...

    Nigelb said:

    Euclice !

    We need more EU workers, admits leading Tory Brexiter
    George Eustice, the former environment secretary, is calling for a reciprocal visa scheme so that under-35s can work across the EU and Britain
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/jul/08/tory-brexiter-george-eustice-visas-young-eu-workers-labour-shortage

    So let me get this straight we imposed draconian economic sanctions on ourselves to specifically rid the nation of young EU migrant workers. And it worked like a dream. And now we want to encourage young EU workers back to the UK without reinstating any of the benefits we as a nation and as citizens of Europe cherished and lost by voting to specifically get rid of young migrant workers from the EU.
    It’s about discovering Stuart Rose spoke the (unacceptable) truth.

    Low end jobs had their wages suppressed by low/zero skill immigration.

    Now companies are facing a shortage of people prepared to work for minimum wage (or even less - see piece work). They may even be faced with investing in automation. See all the lunch places which are installing big screen self service tills in London etc…
    You have completely missed or ignored my point. We specifically voted to withdraw from all the benefits of EU membership to expel young low paid Europeans, and now we want them back, but without associating their return with reinstatement of the benefits WE lost.
    No, I haven’t.

    I was just remarking on *why* this comment was being made by *this* politician.

    The U.K. economy has/had an addiction to ultra cheap labour. This is directly connected to the very poor productivity figures we have seen over the years. And the continued attempts at suppressing wages in the NHS.

    There are two approaches to resolve this - invest in productivity. Or get more cheap labour.

    Stuart Rose pointed this out in the referendum campaign. Probably foolishly.
    But any fool could see that. Even Boris Johnson, who promised to fill the Labour shortfalls by importing "our friends from the Indian Sub-Continent" to take up the slack.
    Brexit voters didn't see that, at least the clump of them who explicitly voted Brexit to cut migration. They wanted less people from abroad taking their jobs and making their schools and hospitals full up. They wanted less Poles and Romanians and Muslims.

    As I've been pointing out on here for years, Brits are not replacing departing forrin working in care homes and factories and the field. We don't want these jobs - which is why we needed migrant labour in the first place. And not just unskilled - anyone remember how you couldn't get a plumber or a sparky 20 years ago? Our people stopped wanting to work. And they still don't.
    Country is full of lazy want everything for nothing barstewards, they whine plenty about pensioners but don't want to do a day's work themselves.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,871

    HYUFD said:

    Labour's smear against Sunak looks even worse. I think the next election could be one of the nastiest ever in terms of negative ads and slogans

    Labour's negative poster campaign was unfortunate and best left unpublished. But to suggest Johnson's scurrilous slur against Starmer, now taken on by Sunak it would seem, is a lesser of two evils is absurd.

    As a committed Christian would you condone Sunak promoting the lies about Starmer and Savile even if it looks like winning him (and you) the next election?
    He's a what now? He completely misconstrued the Parable of the Talents and misrepresented Jesus.

    Actually it isn't a lie actually because this opinion polls showed that the largest number of conservative party members think actually it's not a lie actually. Sorry, morality? Right and wrong? What do they have to do with it?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,575

    HYUFD said:

    Labour's smear against Sunak looks even worse. I think the next election could be one of the nastiest ever in terms of negative ads and slogans

    Labour's negative poster campaign was unfortunate and best left unpublished. But to suggest Johnson's scurrilous slur against Starmer, now taken on by Sunak it would seem, is a lesser of two evils is absurd.

    As a committed Christian would you condone Sunak promoting the lies about Starmer and Savile even if it looks like winning him (and you) the next election?
    Sunak is a Hindu, Starmer is an atheist. Even if I tried to say they should push Christian values and not be too negative about each other I doubt they would care.

    Indeed the only Christian of the 3 main party leaders is Sir Ed Davey, who is Church of England.

    Perhaps reflects the fact the Church of England is now more the Liberal Democrats at Prayer than the Tory Party at prayer with a few evangelical and ultra conservative high Anglo Catholic exceptions
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,270

    Icarus said:

    I'm not sure the Labour poster will help keep Savile out of the election.

    The picture of Saville in the Conservative T shirt should effectively trump that.
    SUNAK: I know which party was a friend of Saville Mr Speaker. The party of the man who let him off!
    STARMER: Ahem

    Add about ten stone and who would that physically resemble?

    If you don't see a similarity with someone else your mind will not need bleaching. If you do see the likeness don't blame me.

    Keep you answers to yourself please.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,630

    On topic, Johnson had a lightness of touch (52% of what he said being for bants anyway) which allowed him to make cruel insults and get away with it. Sunak is just too strait laced.

    It's one thing for the class clown to be rude, another for the school swot. And if Rishi loses his swotty reputation, what has he got left?

    Sunak is not venal or lazy like Johnson but he may well be worse in every other way!!!

  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,871
    malcolmg said:

    ...

    Nigelb said:

    Euclice !

    We need more EU workers, admits leading Tory Brexiter
    George Eustice, the former environment secretary, is calling for a reciprocal visa scheme so that under-35s can work across the EU and Britain
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/jul/08/tory-brexiter-george-eustice-visas-young-eu-workers-labour-shortage

    So let me get this straight we imposed draconian economic sanctions on ourselves to specifically rid the nation of young EU migrant workers. And it worked like a dream. And now we want to encourage young EU workers back to the UK without reinstating any of the benefits we as a nation and as citizens of Europe cherished and lost by voting to specifically get rid of young migrant workers from the EU.
    It’s about discovering Stuart Rose spoke the (unacceptable) truth.

    Low end jobs had their wages suppressed by low/zero skill immigration.

    Now companies are facing a shortage of people prepared to work for minimum wage (or even less - see piece work). They may even be faced with investing in automation. See all the lunch places which are installing big screen self service tills in London etc…
    You have completely missed or ignored my point. We specifically voted to withdraw from all the benefits of EU membership to expel young low paid Europeans, and now we want them back, but without associating their return with reinstatement of the benefits WE lost.
    No, I haven’t.

    I was just remarking on *why* this comment was being made by *this* politician.

    The U.K. economy has/had an addiction to ultra cheap labour. This is directly connected to the very poor productivity figures we have seen over the years. And the continued attempts at suppressing wages in the NHS.

    There are two approaches to resolve this - invest in productivity. Or get more cheap labour.

    Stuart Rose pointed this out in the referendum campaign. Probably foolishly.
    But any fool could see that. Even Boris Johnson, who promised to fill the Labour shortfalls by importing "our friends from the Indian Sub-Continent" to take up the slack.
    Brexit voters didn't see that, at least the clump of them who explicitly voted Brexit to cut migration. They wanted less people from abroad taking their jobs and making their schools and hospitals full up. They wanted less Poles and Romanians and Muslims.

    As I've been pointing out on here for years, Brits are not replacing departing forrin working in care homes and factories and the field. We don't want these jobs - which is why we needed migrant labour in the first place. And not just unskilled - anyone remember how you couldn't get a plumber or a sparky 20 years ago? Our people stopped wanting to work. And they still don't.
    Country is full of lazy want everything for nothing barstewards, they whine plenty about pensioners but don't want to do a day's work themselves.
    A little unfair but there is something in it. I blame Simon Cowell - why graft when you can be famous? My 15 year old son said yesterday that he couldn't understand people working nights. Both Mrs RP and I piped up with us working night shifts, and split shifts (I had one job that finished at 2am). As we said, you take the work you can get when you need work.

    I know that I am privileged now being paid £lots for "work" which is far more gentle than so many who get paid £less. But I've chopped cucumbers and loaded clothes onto trucks and pushed trollies around.

    The issue is that good honest work isn't seen as good or honest. It's "demeaning" or pick any other negative you like. That's not a people issue, it's a societal issue. And it goes back to Thatcherite pronunciations about if you are over the age of 30 and on a bus you have failed in life. Did our neighbours EU countries demean work in this way?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,683
    edited July 2023

    Good morning, one and all.
    I grumbled yesterday about a large picture, putting me off my food, and the same applies today. Please if we going to have pictures could we have them of more appropriate size.
    Incidentally, hat-tip to HYUFD for digging back into the archives and finding the video of Jeremy Thorpe with Jimmy Savile.

    Apologies - they look an appropriate size on my phone!

    I promise to no longer show the picture of the former DJ disgraced by his association with the C*servative P*rty
    Eh? HYUFD digging out movies of Messrs Savile and Thorpe? Is he regarding this as an argument for or against the LDs? I remember how delighted HYUFD was when one of us brought up a set of photographs of Mr SAvile with the then Duke of Rothesay at/near Balmoral. Is he now going to advocate republicanism?

    Asking for a friend.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,871
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Labour's smear against Sunak looks even worse. I think the next election could be one of the nastiest ever in terms of negative ads and slogans

    Labour's negative poster campaign was unfortunate and best left unpublished. But to suggest Johnson's scurrilous slur against Starmer, now taken on by Sunak it would seem, is a lesser of two evils is absurd.

    As a committed Christian would you condone Sunak promoting the lies about Starmer and Savile even if it looks like winning him (and you) the next election?
    Sunak is a Hindu, Starmer is an atheist. Even if I tried to say they should push Christian values and not be too negative about each other I doubt they would care.

    Indeed the only Christian of the 3 main party leaders is Sir Ed Davey, who is Church of England.

    Perhaps reflects the fact the Church of England is now more the Liberal Democrats at Prayer than the Tory Party at prayer with a few evangelical and ultra conservative high Anglo Catholic exceptions
    But you don't push Christian values. The opposite. Look at the values of the people you shill for.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,326
    malcolmg said:

    ...

    Nigelb said:

    Euclice !

    We need more EU workers, admits leading Tory Brexiter
    George Eustice, the former environment secretary, is calling for a reciprocal visa scheme so that under-35s can work across the EU and Britain
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/jul/08/tory-brexiter-george-eustice-visas-young-eu-workers-labour-shortage

    So let me get this straight we imposed draconian economic sanctions on ourselves to specifically rid the nation of young EU migrant workers. And it worked like a dream. And now we want to encourage young EU workers back to the UK without reinstating any of the benefits we as a nation and as citizens of Europe cherished and lost by voting to specifically get rid of young migrant workers from the EU.
    It’s about discovering Stuart Rose spoke the (unacceptable) truth.

    Low end jobs had their wages suppressed by low/zero skill immigration.

    Now companies are facing a shortage of people prepared to work for minimum wage (or even less - see piece work). They may even be faced with investing in automation. See all the lunch places which are installing big screen self service tills in London etc…
    You have completely missed or ignored my point. We specifically voted to withdraw from all the benefits of EU membership to expel young low paid Europeans, and now we want them back, but without associating their return with reinstatement of the benefits WE lost.
    No, I haven’t.

    I was just remarking on *why* this comment was being made by *this* politician.

    The U.K. economy has/had an addiction to ultra cheap labour. This is directly connected to the very poor productivity figures we have seen over the years. And the continued attempts at suppressing wages in the NHS.

    There are two approaches to resolve this - invest in productivity. Or get more cheap labour.

    Stuart Rose pointed this out in the referendum campaign. Probably foolishly.
    But any fool could see that. Even Boris Johnson, who promised to fill the Labour shortfalls by importing "our friends from the Indian Sub-Continent" to take up the slack.
    Brexit voters didn't see that, at least the clump of them who explicitly voted Brexit to cut migration. They wanted less people from abroad taking their jobs and making their schools and hospitals full up. They wanted less Poles and Romanians and Muslims.

    As I've been pointing out on here for years, Brits are not replacing departing forrin working in care homes and factories and the field. We don't want these jobs - which is why we needed migrant labour in the first place. And not just unskilled - anyone remember how you couldn't get a plumber or a sparky 20 years ago? Our people stopped wanting to work. And they still don't.
    Country is full of lazy want everything for nothing barstewards, they whine plenty about pensioners but don't want to do a day's work themselves.
    Morning. Great to see you're on cracking form so early on this bright, sunny Sunday, the day of rest.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,270
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Labour's smear against Sunak looks even worse. I think the next election could be one of the nastiest ever in terms of negative ads and slogans

    Labour's negative poster campaign was unfortunate and best left unpublished. But to suggest Johnson's scurrilous slur against Starmer, now taken on by Sunak it would seem, is a lesser of two evils is absurd.

    As a committed Christian would you condone Sunak promoting the lies about Starmer and Savile even if it looks like winning him (and you) the next election?
    Sunak is a Hindu, Starmer is an atheist. Even if I tried to say they should push Christian values and not be too negative about each other I doubt they would care.

    Indeed the only Christian of the 3 main party leaders is Sir Ed Davey, who is Church of England.

    Perhaps reflects the fact the Church of England is now more the Liberal Democrats at Prayer than the Tory Party at prayer with a few evangelical and ultra conservative high Anglo Catholic exceptions
    No, I specifically asked if YOU as a devout Christian would condone a scurrilous lie for significant party political gain.

    Hint: The answer should be "no".
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,575

    Strong trade unions are the best guarantee against low wages and poor working conditions. It’s why so many EU member states do not have the low wage, low productivity problem the UK does. The issue was never freedom of movement, it was crap management and anti-union legislation. It’s why we still have the problem now.

    Yet the lowest paid have seen their wages rise fastest in sectors previously most reliant on EU workers since free movement ended and Brexit. Even most EU nations put transition controls on free movement unlike Blair. EU average unemployment is also 6% compared to 4% in the UK and France of course for example has more strikes
    https://www.reuters.com/world/uk/uk-sees-fastest-wage-rises-sectors-most-reliant-eu-workers-indeed-2022-02-25/
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,871

    Icarus said:

    I'm not sure the Labour poster will help keep Savile out of the election.

    The picture of Saville in the Conservative T shirt should effectively trump that.
    SUNAK: I know which party was a friend of Saville Mr Speaker. The party of the man who let him off!
    STARMER: Ahem

    Add about ten stone and who would that physically resemble?

    If you don't see a similarity with someone else your mind will not need bleaching. If you do see the likeness don't blame me.

    Keep you answers to yourself please.
    No likeness at all. One of the people being considered used to run endless marathons for charity (albeit as cover for noncing). The other climbs out of the car, jogs 20 yards and invites people to consider that he runs to keep fit. The nonsense had actual wind to ruffle his hair, the lying crook ruffles his own hair for effect.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,683
    malcolmg said:

    ...

    Nigelb said:

    Euclice !

    We need more EU workers, admits leading Tory Brexiter
    George Eustice, the former environment secretary, is calling for a reciprocal visa scheme so that under-35s can work across the EU and Britain
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/jul/08/tory-brexiter-george-eustice-visas-young-eu-workers-labour-shortage

    So let me get this straight we imposed draconian economic sanctions on ourselves to specifically rid the nation of young EU migrant workers. And it worked like a dream. And now we want to encourage young EU workers back to the UK without reinstating any of the benefits we as a nation and as citizens of Europe cherished and lost by voting to specifically get rid of young migrant workers from the EU.
    It’s about discovering Stuart Rose spoke the (unacceptable) truth.

    Low end jobs had their wages suppressed by low/zero skill immigration.

    Now companies are facing a shortage of people prepared to work for minimum wage (or even less - see piece work). They may even be faced with investing in automation. See all the lunch places which are installing big screen self service tills in London etc…
    You have completely missed or ignored my point. We specifically voted to withdraw from all the benefits of EU membership to expel young low paid Europeans, and now we want them back, but without associating their return with reinstatement of the benefits WE lost.
    No, I haven’t.

    I was just remarking on *why* this comment was being made by *this* politician.

    The U.K. economy has/had an addiction to ultra cheap labour. This is directly connected to the very poor productivity figures we have seen over the years. And the continued attempts at suppressing wages in the NHS.

    There are two approaches to resolve this - invest in productivity. Or get more cheap labour.

    Stuart Rose pointed this out in the referendum campaign. Probably foolishly.
    But any fool could see that. Even Boris Johnson, who promised to fill the Labour shortfalls by importing "our friends from the Indian Sub-Continent" to take up the slack.
    Brexit voters didn't see that, at least the clump of them who explicitly voted Brexit to cut migration. They wanted less people from abroad taking their jobs and making their schools and hospitals full up. They wanted less Poles and Romanians and Muslims.

    As I've been pointing out on here for years, Brits are not replacing departing forrin working in care homes and factories and the field. We don't want these jobs - which is why we needed migrant labour in the first place. And not just unskilled - anyone remember how you couldn't get a plumber or a sparky 20 years ago? Our people stopped wanting to work. And they still don't.
    Country is full of lazy want everything for nothing barstewards, they whine plenty about pensioners but don't want to do a day's work themselves.
    Hello, Malky. Was piddling down all day and night, pretty much, but we missed the worst by luck. Now sunny and drying out on this side, though I wonder how midgy it will be in the more sheltered areas.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,922

    Sunak is not venal or lazy like Johnson but he may well be worse in every other way!!!

    John Rentoul makes the pitch this morning that he is "the most capable Tory PM since Thatcher" and is bemused why the public feels pity for him instead of respect...
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,152

    On topic, Johnson had a lightness of touch (52% of what he said being for bants anyway) which allowed him to make cruel insults and get away with it. Sunak is just too strait laced.

    It's one thing for the class clown to be rude, another for the school swot. And if Rishi loses his swotty reputation, what has he got left?

    Sunak is not venal or lazy like Johnson but he may well be worse in every other way!!!

    Better trouser control, to be fair. And a set of skills that let him accumulate mountains of dosh more respectably. But just as keen on the lifestyle.

    Politically, I suspect one of Sunak's problems is that he has done his political apprenticeship under Johnson and Vote Leave, which has taught him some terrible habits.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,270

    Icarus said:

    I'm not sure the Labour poster will help keep Savile out of the election.

    The picture of Saville in the Conservative T shirt should effectively trump that.
    SUNAK: I know which party was a friend of Saville Mr Speaker. The party of the man who let him off!
    STARMER: Ahem

    Add about ten stone and who would that physically resemble?

    If you don't see a similarity with someone else your mind will not need bleaching. If you do see the likeness don't blame me.

    Keep you answers to yourself please.
    No likeness at all. One of the people being considered used to run endless marathons for charity (albeit as cover for noncing). The other climbs out of the car, jogs 20 yards and invites people to consider that he runs to keep fit. The nonsense had actual wind to ruffle his hair, the lying crook ruffles his own hair for effect.
    I have no idea who you are talking about but don't you agree both would look better in gold shell suits and Adidas, rather than oversized shorts with Crockett and Jones brogues?
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,922

    A little unfair but there is something in it. I blame Simon Cowell - why graft when you can be famous?

    Modern fame is a bizarre winner-takes-all system that disproportionately rewards those at the very top. Billions of dollars for Taylor Swift, almost nothing for an industrious, averagely successful guitar band. The lessons of this strange industry apply to almost nobody.

    For most people, celebrity exhortations to dream big, sacrifice your life to your passion and keep going in the face of failure are not useful. As the comedian Bo Burnham put it, “Taylor Swift telling you to follow your dreams is like a lottery winner telling you, ‘Liquidise your assets; buy Powerball tickets — it works!’ ”

    Toiling fanatically towards a distant goal sounds inspiring but it creates a single point of failure. If you spend every waking hour playing golf but never make it as a professional golfer, what exactly was the point of your life?


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/dont-follow-your-dreams-theyll-serve-you-ill-b7qvhw7wk
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,630
    HYUFD said:

    Strong trade unions are the best guarantee against low wages and poor working conditions. It’s why so many EU member states do not have the low wage, low productivity problem the UK does. The issue was never freedom of movement, it was crap management and anti-union legislation. It’s why we still have the problem now.

    Yet the lowest paid have seen their wages rise fastest in sectors previously most reliant on EU workers since free movement ended and Brexit. Even most EU nations put transition controls on free movement unlike Blair. EU average unemployment is also 6% compared to 4% in the UK and France of course for example has more strikes
    https://www.reuters.com/world/uk/uk-sees-fastest-wage-rises-sectors-most-reliant-eu-workers-indeed-2022-02-25/
    France has more strikes and a higher standard of living. Germany, the Netherlands and the Nordic countries have strong unions, high productivity, low strike levels and better standards of living than the UK. We are the outlier in our part of Europe.

  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,683

    Nigelb said:

    Euclice !

    We need more EU workers, admits leading Tory Brexiter
    George Eustice, the former environment secretary, is calling for a reciprocal visa scheme so that under-35s can work across the EU and Britain
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/jul/08/tory-brexiter-george-eustice-visas-young-eu-workers-labour-shortage

    So let me get this straight we imposed draconian economic sanctions on ourselves to specifically rid the nation of young EU migrant workers. And it worked like a dream. And now we want to encourage young EU workers back to the UK without reinstating any of the benefits we as a nation and as citizens of Europe cherished and lost by voting to specifically get rid of young migrant workers from the EU.
    One very telling point in the article:

    "Eustice, who comes from a farming family in the West Country, [...]"

    And

    'He blamed Theresa May when she was prime minister for failing to adopt bilateral visa schemes with EU countries after Brexit, which he said he had always supported.

    “This idea of having no temporary visa schemes was not from the Vote Leave campaign,” Eustice said. “It came predominantly from Theresa May. It was a remainer’s interpretation of what Brexit was about. That was not what Brexit was about'
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208

    Icarus said:

    I'm not sure the Labour poster will help keep Savile out of the election.

    The picture of Saville in the Conservative T shirt should effectively trump that.
    SUNAK: I know which party was a friend of Saville Mr Speaker. The party of the man who let him off!
    STARMER: Ahem

    Icarus said:

    I'm not sure the Labour poster will help keep Savile out of the election.

    The picture of Saville in the Conservative T shirt should effectively trump that.
    SUNAK: I know which party was a friend of Saville Mr Speaker. The party of the man who let him off!
    STARMER: Ahem

    I believe that image is as fake as the claims Starmer refused to prosecute Savile
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,630
    Scott_xP said:

    Sunak is not venal or lazy like Johnson but he may well be worse in every other way!!!

    John Rentoul makes the pitch this morning that he is "the most capable Tory PM since Thatcher" and is bemused why the public feels pity for him instead of respect...
    John Rentoul is really struggling to compute that a Labour party not led by Tony Blair might win a general election.

  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,270
    Scott_xP said:

    Sunak is not venal or lazy like Johnson but he may well be worse in every other way!!!

    John Rentoul makes the pitch this morning that he is "the most capable Tory PM since Thatcher" and is bemused why the public feels pity for him instead of respect...
    Rentoul isn't wrong if you ignore both Major and Cameron, and both of those Prime Ministers had their shortcomings.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,922
    Carnyx said:

    “This idea of having no temporary visa schemes was not from the Vote Leave campaign,” Eustice said. “It came predominantly from Theresa May. It was a remainer’s interpretation of what Brexit was about. That was not what Brexit was about'

    Of course, it should have been obvious that this singular failure of Brexit was caused by those who didn't want it, advocate it, campaign for it or vote for it...
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,683
    edited July 2023
    Scott_xP said:

    Carnyx said:

    “This idea of having no temporary visa schemes was not from the Vote Leave campaign,” Eustice said. “It came predominantly from Theresa May. It was a remainer’s interpretation of what Brexit was about. That was not what Brexit was about'

    Of course, it should have been obvious that this singular failure of Brexit was caused by those who didn't want it, advocate it, campaign for it or vote for it...
    Yes, it's almost as if three (so far) Brexiter Tory PMs had no agency or power to do anything over the last four years.

    I wonder what Christmas dinners back on the Eustice farm with the rellies were like.

    Edit: And, of course, "Eustice [...] was secretary of state for the environment, food and rural affairs under Boris Johnson,"
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,270
    edited July 2023
    FF43 said:

    Icarus said:

    I'm not sure the Labour poster will help keep Savile out of the election.

    The picture of Saville in the Conservative T shirt should effectively trump that.
    SUNAK: I know which party was a friend of Saville Mr Speaker. The party of the man who let him off!
    STARMER: Ahem

    Icarus said:

    I'm not sure the Labour poster will help keep Savile out of the election.

    The picture of Saville in the Conservative T shirt should effectively trump that.
    SUNAK: I know which party was a friend of Saville Mr Speaker. The party of the man who let him off!
    STARMER: Ahem

    I believe that image is as fake as the claims Starmer refused to prosecute Savile
    Ah but the camera never lies! Unlike (allegedly) Boris Johnson with the protection of Parliamentary Privilege.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,058
    Foxy said:

    Roger said:

    James Johnson of JL Parttners is a complete fraud. His focus groups are nonsense. On the basis of one focus group containing 7 people he predicted tthree by-election results.

    Wrongly of course!

    The radio 4 discussion between him and Peter Kellner is worth listening to. 'You're raising your eyebrows again Peter!' said Evan Davis.

    Though:

    Uxbridge & South Ruislip By-Election Voting Intention:

    LAB: 41% (+3)
    CON: 33% (-20)
    LDM: 6% (=)
    REC: 5% (New)
    GRN: 4% (+2)
    IND: 4% (New)
    Others: 7% (+6)

    Via @JLPartnersPolls, 26 Jun - 6 Jul.
    Changes w/ GE2019.

    Selby & Ainsty By-Election Voting Intention:

    LAB: 41% (+16)
    CON: 29% (-31)
    RFM: 8% (New)
    LDM: 6% (-3)
    GRN: 6% (+3)
    YSP: 4% (+1)
    Others: 6% (New)

    Via @JLPartnersPolls, 26 Jun - 6 Jul.
    Changes w/ GE2019.


    I always forget reform and reclaim are separate parties.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,441
    Scott_xP said:

    A little unfair but there is something in it. I blame Simon Cowell - why graft when you can be famous?

    Modern fame is a bizarre winner-takes-all system that disproportionately rewards those at the very top. Billions of dollars for Taylor Swift, almost nothing for an industrious, averagely successful guitar band. The lessons of this strange industry apply to almost nobody.

    For most people, celebrity exhortations to dream big, sacrifice your life to your passion and keep going in the face of failure are not useful. As the comedian Bo Burnham put it, “Taylor Swift telling you to follow your dreams is like a lottery winner telling you, ‘Liquidise your assets; buy Powerball tickets — it works!’ ”

    Toiling fanatically towards a distant goal sounds inspiring but it creates a single point of failure. If you spend every waking hour playing golf but never make it as a professional golfer, what exactly was the point of your life?


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/dont-follow-your-dreams-theyll-serve-you-ill-b7qvhw7wk
    I was listening to the Radio yesterday morning and they mentioned that next week some tv and radio presenter (I think Anita Rani?) would be in to talk about her new book.

    It really struck me on further consideration that once you are “in” you are really in. So many tv personalities seem to get publishing deals, so many BBC presenters who do one show suddenly seem to be selected to do other non-related shows.

    It might be that Anita Rani is an absolutely great writer, it might be that Andrew Marr really is the most knowledgeable person with presenting skills to present a show about the Renaissance but I have a sneaking suspicion it’s not the case.

    So to get to the point I think that opportunities - such as for the average singer compared to Taylor Swift - have become very small requiring luck or connections more than in the past. How many better manuscripts are sitting on publishers desks by Josephine Bloggs who has no name recognition to the public and are overlooked for a tv presenter’s work. How many brilliant art historians are ignored because “we know” Andrew Marr or Janina Ramirez so better to get them to present even though it’s not their field.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,575

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Labour's smear against Sunak looks even worse. I think the next election could be one of the nastiest ever in terms of negative ads and slogans

    Labour's negative poster campaign was unfortunate and best left unpublished. But to suggest Johnson's scurrilous slur against Starmer, now taken on by Sunak it would seem, is a lesser of two evils is absurd.

    As a committed Christian would you condone Sunak promoting the lies about Starmer and Savile even if it looks like winning him (and you) the next election?
    Sunak is a Hindu, Starmer is an atheist. Even if I tried to say they should push Christian values and not be too negative about each other I doubt they would care.

    Indeed the only Christian of the 3 main party leaders is Sir Ed Davey, who is Church of England.

    Perhaps reflects the fact the Church of England is now more the Liberal Democrats at Prayer than the Tory Party at prayer with a few evangelical and ultra conservative high Anglo Catholic exceptions
    But you don't push Christian values. The opposite. Look at the values of the people you shill for.
    Sunak is pretty Christian even as a Hindu. Hunt is the most senior Anglican Tory now and also pretty Christian in values, certainly his personal life where he is in a lifelong, committed marriage with his wife.

    Left Liberals also often ignore the Old Testament, just the help the poor bits of the New they like
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,270
    edited July 2023

    Scott_xP said:

    A little unfair but there is something in it. I blame Simon Cowell - why graft when you can be famous?

    Modern fame is a bizarre winner-takes-all system that disproportionately rewards those at the very top. Billions of dollars for Taylor Swift, almost nothing for an industrious, averagely successful guitar band. The lessons of this strange industry apply to almost nobody.

    For most people, celebrity exhortations to dream big, sacrifice your life to your passion and keep going in the face of failure are not useful. As the comedian Bo Burnham put it, “Taylor Swift telling you to follow your dreams is like a lottery winner telling you, ‘Liquidise your assets; buy Powerball tickets — it works!’ ”

    Toiling fanatically towards a distant goal sounds inspiring but it creates a single point of failure. If you spend every waking hour playing golf but never make it as a professional golfer, what exactly was the point of your life?


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/dont-follow-your-dreams-theyll-serve-you-ill-b7qvhw7wk
    I actually disagree with this. If you are passionate about the arts and have a talent for it then pursue it. You don't need to sell out arenas to make a living in the music business. In fact, if you are in it with dreams of fame then you're in it for the wrong reasons.
    I know lots of people working in the arts and I also know lots of people in finance. I'd say that people who have a passion for either field and are working in it are living happy, fulfilled lives. People who are in finance solely for material comfort seem a lot less happy.
    Also, if you really do feel you have to work in a different field for material reasons (raising a family can be expensive) then you can easily find opportunities to make the arts a side-hustle or a part-time thing, with loads of open mic or other gigging opportunities. People who are locked into expensive status-driven lifestyles, stuck doing a job they hate, are living a sad, stultified existence. You only have one life. Grab it with both hands.
    Yes you are right, however Cowell also sells snake oil to the talentless.

    For every Harry Styles there are 999,999 burger flippers.
This discussion has been closed.