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How Sunak’s PMQ record compares with predecessors – politicalbetting.com

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Comments

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,921
    edited July 2023
    DavidL said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scottish subsample klaxon, Opinium edition.

    SNP in danger of finishing third in Scotland behind the Tories.

    Labour 31%

    SNP 31%

    SCons 28%

    I mean it is a subsample so as about as accurate as an American war movie.

    Indeed but if the SNP finished third in Scotland on votes and seats that would be even more humiliating for Yousaf than the next election is likely to be for Rishi.
    100+ seats lost in England and Wales and 2 or 3 gains in Scotland for the Tories? Looks on to me.
    Yes Scotland has a habit of doing the opposite to England recently. 2010 saw Labour hold all its seats but the Tories win a majority in England. 2015 saw a Tory majority in England and the UK but an SNP landslide in Scotland. 2017 saw significant SNP losses to the Tories in Scotland but the Tories losing seats in England and their majority in the UK. 2019 saw the Conservatives win a majority in England and UK wide but lose over half their Scottish seats to the SNP.

    2024 looks no different in terms of the SNP and Tories at least but it does look like Starmer might break the mould by being the first main UK party leader since Blair to win big in England and Scotland
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368

    A better poll for the Conservatives, but it comes to something when 28% is better:

    🚨 Latest poll for @ObserverUK Labour lead at 15 points.
    Labour: 43% (-1)
    Conservatives: 28% (+3)
    Lib Dems: 9% (n/c)
    SNP: 3% (n/c)
    Green: 6% (-1)
    Reform UK: 8% (+1)
    (Changes are from a poll released in the Observer last week)


    https://twitter.com/OpiniumResearch/status/1677758557029105664

    I believe Opinium have a march on the rest because of their application of swingback.

    A mid to high twenties lead for Labour is for the birds.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,892
    geoffw said:

    DavidL said:

    I have loved @stodge's reports from Estonia but this just blew me away: https://twitter.com/i/status/1677173760493756420

    And Zeleniskyy's address in Bulgaria today, just wow.

    Dunno about Estonia, I thought he reported from East London
    You never see @stodge and @Cicero in the same room together.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,640

    pigeon said:

    HYUFD said:

    A better poll for the Conservatives, but it comes to something when 28% is better:

    🚨 Latest poll for @ObserverUK Labour lead at 15 points.
    Labour: 43% (-1)
    Conservatives: 28% (+3)
    Lib Dems: 9% (n/c)
    SNP: 3% (n/c)
    Green: 6% (-1)
    Reform UK: 8% (+1)
    (Changes are from a poll released in the Observer last week)


    https://twitter.com/OpiniumResearch/status/1677758557029105664

    And with 8% RefUK vote to squeeze too
    Quite. There's no way on God's Earth that RefUK are going to poll 8% in a General Election, or anywhere remotely close. Most of that lot are pissed off Tory supporters who have a tantrum when talking to pollsters, but will traipse back home again when the Government of the country is at stake.
    I think a large number will abstain, on the basis that the cause is lost (this time).
    Yes, a bit like the UKIP vote in 2017. About half went Tory, half either abstained or went Lab etc.

    There was a noticeable uptick in REFUK when Rishi became PM. I think this the opposite of the Hindutva vote.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,812
    kle4 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    stop the boats

    @charleshymas
    Channel migrant crossings hit new daily record for 2023

    UK more popular than ever!
    Wait till they read about Brexit though. The beaches of France will be swamped with people trying to go the other way. Surely?
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 14,324
    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Coreta, 47, a manager from Somerton, called the prime minister “a weak dog”. Ann, 72, from Selby, focused on his small physical stature. “He is a little mouse to look at,” she said. “I hate seeing him alongside other statesmen because he looks so tiny.” Craig, 39, a software tester from Selby, was blunter still: “I’d probably say a dodo for Rishi, because he’s pretty much dead to me like a dodo.”

    Tryl, who acted as the moderator, said: “These were by far the worst set of groups we’ve done on impressions of Rishi Sunak. Whereas previously people have been willing to give him some benefit of the doubt, and usually fell back on the fact that even if he’s out of touch he’s competent and the best person to clear up the mess from Boris Johnson and Liz Truss, things have shifted. The cost of living crisis being compounded with the mortgage crisis has exacerbated Sunak’s personal weaknesses.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/dead-like-a-dodo-by-election-voters-are-giving-rishi-sunak-both-barrels-pbz5zpvfb

    The short stuff is just mean, but this is the key part - he needed to be able to show things had turned around by now.
    It's absurd too.

    The man is 5'6", a little below average but no pigmy, and who the hell cares anyway? What kind of a voter is preoccupied with height?

    It reminds one of the remark attributed to Churchill that one's belief in Democracy is unlikely to withstand more than five minutes conversation with a constituent.
    I make fun of his height on here because I'm only like half an inch taller so I feel fine doing so, but it is absurd.

    I'd hope it is really just a consequence of seeing him as weak and therefore finding any outlet to criticise, but as Dr Palmer has revealed, some voters will openly say they will vote for the person who is taller! (In that case, him, so all was well).
    I remember hearing someone say they couldn't vote for Kinnock as PM because he had red hair, which about says it all about some voters, but really we shouldn't be giving air time to that sort of nonsense.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,640

    A better poll for the Conservatives, but it comes to something when 28% is better:

    🚨 Latest poll for @ObserverUK Labour lead at 15 points.
    Labour: 43% (-1)
    Conservatives: 28% (+3)
    Lib Dems: 9% (n/c)
    SNP: 3% (n/c)
    Green: 6% (-1)
    Reform UK: 8% (+1)
    (Changes are from a poll released in the Observer last week)


    https://twitter.com/OpiniumResearch/status/1677758557029105664

    I believe Opinium have a march on the rest because of their application of swingback.

    A mid to high twenties lead for Labour is for the birds.
    Lab Majority of 176 on those figures, including slingback.

    https://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/fcgi-bin/usercode.py?scotcontrol=Y&tvcontrol=Y&CON=28&LAB=43&LIB=9&Reform=8&Green=6&UKIP=&TVCON=&TVLAB=&TVLIB=&TVReform=&TVGreen=&TVUKIP=&SCOTCON=18.5&SCOTLAB=31.5&SCOTLIB=7.8&SCOTReform=0&SCOTGreen=1.3&SCOTUKIP=&SCOTNAT=36.4&display=AllChanged&regorseat=(none)&boundary=2019base
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,275

    A better poll for the Conservatives, but it comes to something when 28% is better:

    🚨 Latest poll for @ObserverUK Labour lead at 15 points.
    Labour: 43% (-1)
    Conservatives: 28% (+3)
    Lib Dems: 9% (n/c)
    SNP: 3% (n/c)
    Green: 6% (-1)
    Reform UK: 8% (+1)
    (Changes are from a poll released in the Observer last week)


    https://twitter.com/OpiniumResearch/status/1677758557029105664

    Oracy for all has gone down well then.
    Perhaps that was nullified by the Jenrick fans who next week are hoping he goes further with his cruelty . If there was any justice the Tories would be reduced to sub 100 seats at the next GE . I suspect the election will be much closer . The current soft Tories I’m sure will find a way to justify returning to the fold .
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,821

    Scott_xP said:

    Coreta, 47, a manager from Somerton, called the prime minister “a weak dog”. Ann, 72, from Selby, focused on his small physical stature. “He is a little mouse to look at,” she said. “I hate seeing him alongside other statesmen because he looks so tiny.” Craig, 39, a software tester from Selby, was blunter still: “I’d probably say a dodo for Rishi, because he’s pretty much dead to me like a dodo.”

    Tryl, who acted as the moderator, said: “These were by far the worst set of groups we’ve done on impressions of Rishi Sunak. Whereas previously people have been willing to give him some benefit of the doubt, and usually fell back on the fact that even if he’s out of touch he’s competent and the best person to clear up the mess from Boris Johnson and Liz Truss, things have shifted. The cost of living crisis being compounded with the mortgage crisis has exacerbated Sunak’s personal weaknesses.”


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/dead-like-a-dodo-by-election-voters-are-giving-rishi-sunak-both-barrels-pbz5zpvfb

    I know people don't like bringing up his height but it is an issue for the voters.
    POOR "LITTLE" RICH BOY :lol:
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,892
    Just Stop Oil with some orange confetti for just-married George Osborne
    https://twitter.com/i/status/1677745464903454722
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368
    Foxy said:

    pigeon said:

    HYUFD said:

    A better poll for the Conservatives, but it comes to something when 28% is better:

    🚨 Latest poll for @ObserverUK Labour lead at 15 points.
    Labour: 43% (-1)
    Conservatives: 28% (+3)
    Lib Dems: 9% (n/c)
    SNP: 3% (n/c)
    Green: 6% (-1)
    Reform UK: 8% (+1)
    (Changes are from a poll released in the Observer last week)


    https://twitter.com/OpiniumResearch/status/1677758557029105664

    And with 8% RefUK vote to squeeze too
    Quite. There's no way on God's Earth that RefUK are going to poll 8% in a General Election, or anywhere remotely close. Most of that lot are pissed off Tory supporters who have a tantrum when talking to pollsters, but will traipse back home again when the Government of the country is at stake.
    I think a large number will abstain, on the basis that the cause is lost (this time).
    Yes, a bit like the UKIP vote in 2017. About half went Tory, half either abstained or went Lab etc.

    There was a noticeable uptick in REFUK when Rishi became PM. I think this the opposite of the Hindutva vote.
    There is something to be said by voting for Sunak's Conservatives just to p*ss off Refuk and their supporters.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,821

    A better poll for the Conservatives, but it comes to something when 28% is better:

    🚨 Latest poll for @ObserverUK Labour lead at 15 points.
    Labour: 43% (-1)
    Conservatives: 28% (+3)
    Lib Dems: 9% (n/c)
    SNP: 3% (n/c)
    Green: 6% (-1)
    Reform UK: 8% (+1)
    (Changes are from a poll released in the Observer last week)


    https://twitter.com/OpiniumResearch/status/1677758557029105664

    Broken, sleazy Tories on the RISE???
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,812
    HYUFD said:

    DavidL said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scottish subsample klaxon, Opinium edition.

    SNP in danger of finishing third in Scotland behind the Tories.

    Labour 31%

    SNP 31%

    SCons 28%

    I mean it is a subsample so as about as accurate as an American war movie.

    Indeed but if the SNP finished third in Scotland on votes and seats that would be even more humiliating for Yousaf than the next election is likely to be for Rishi.
    100+ seats lost in England and Wales and 2 or 3 gains in Scotland for the Tories? Looks on to me.
    Yes Scotland has a habit of doing the opposite to England recently. 2010 saw Labour hold all its seats but the Tories win a majority in England. 2015 saw a Tory majority in England and the UK but an SNP landslide in Scotland. 2017 saw significant SNP losses to the Tories in Scotland but the Tories losing seats in England and their majority in the UK. 2019 saw the Conservatives win a majority in England and UK wide but lose over half their Scottish seats to the SNP.

    2024 looks no different in terms of the SNP and Tories at least but it does look like Starmer might break the mould by being the first main UK party leader since Blair to win big in England and Scotland
    We have our own elections up here and one of the things that concern me as a Unionist is how disaggregated they have become. A Labour government with a serious chunk of Scottish seats might improve that and I would welcome that, whatever reservations I have about SKS and his shadow cabinet.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    DavidL said:

    5 overs at the end of a day with a better forecast tomorrow and plenty of time. Most teams would have ducked and dived and focused on survival. England went seriously close to a run a ball. I just can't overstate how fantastic this is. We are living through a golden age of test match cricket. An English team with many flaws is taking on the best team in the world with home advantage and generally favourable weather and coming out all guns blazing. It's just magic.

    A chunk of it is England leading the way with Bazball, but another part of it, I am sure, is T20. It is teaching ALL batsmen to hit big shots faster and better and with more variety and imagination, generally making them more aggressive. Look at Marsh's century

    It makes the whole spectacle vastly more entertaining. The bowlers then have to respond, and so on

    It will be a profound irony if T20 actually saves Test cricket by pumping it full of energy
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368
    DavidL said:

    kle4 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    stop the boats

    @charleshymas
    Channel migrant crossings hit new daily record for 2023

    UK more popular than ever!
    Wait till they read about Brexit though. The beaches of France will be swamped with people trying to go the other way. Surely?
    We would, but we'll be repatriated back to Blighty after 90 days, so it hardly seems worthy of the effort.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,401

    Scott_xP said:

    Coreta, 47, a manager from Somerton, called the prime minister “a weak dog”. Ann, 72, from Selby, focused on his small physical stature. “He is a little mouse to look at,” she said. “I hate seeing him alongside other statesmen because he looks so tiny.” Craig, 39, a software tester from Selby, was blunter still: “I’d probably say a dodo for Rishi, because he’s pretty much dead to me like a dodo.”

    Tryl, who acted as the moderator, said: “These were by far the worst set of groups we’ve done on impressions of Rishi Sunak. Whereas previously people have been willing to give him some benefit of the doubt, and usually fell back on the fact that even if he’s out of touch he’s competent and the best person to clear up the mess from Boris Johnson and Liz Truss, things have shifted. The cost of living crisis being compounded with the mortgage crisis has exacerbated Sunak’s personal weaknesses.”


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/dead-like-a-dodo-by-election-voters-are-giving-rishi-sunak-both-barrels-pbz5zpvfb

    I know people don't like bringing up his height but it is an issue for the voters.
    Why?
    Am genuinely curious.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,401
    boulay said:

    Miklosvar said:

    One in 5 PMQs? Lazy Bugger Rishi!

    Oliver Dowden: "I'll go. I mean, I'm the only one qualified to remote-pilot Angela Rayner anyway."
    Angela Rayner is on her way out, SKS was trolling and signposting with his “oracy” plan.
    How so?
    She's elected.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,831
    DavidL said:

    Scottish subsample klaxon, Opinium edition.

    SNP in danger of finishing third in Scotland behind the Tories.

    Labour 31%

    SNP 31%

    SCons 28%

    I mean it is a subsample so as about as accurate as an American war movie.

    Or a Mel Gibson movie.
    Quite.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,486

    DavidL said:

    kle4 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    stop the boats

    @charleshymas
    Channel migrant crossings hit new daily record for 2023

    UK more popular than ever!
    Wait till they read about Brexit though. The beaches of France will be swamped with people trying to go the other way. Surely?
    We would, but we'll be repatriated back to Blighty after 90 days, so it hardly seems worthy of the effort.
    If you fancy a cost of living busting summer holiday, get the family on a ferry to Calais, post all your docs home, get a small boat to the UK and get flown to a hotel in Rwanda and spend two weeks by the pool whilst you wait for your docs to be forwarded on to you. It’s a no brainier.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,052
    pigeon said:

    HYUFD said:

    A better poll for the Conservatives, but it comes to something when 28% is better:

    🚨 Latest poll for @ObserverUK Labour lead at 15 points.
    Labour: 43% (-1)
    Conservatives: 28% (+3)
    Lib Dems: 9% (n/c)
    SNP: 3% (n/c)
    Green: 6% (-1)
    Reform UK: 8% (+1)
    (Changes are from a poll released in the Observer last week)


    https://twitter.com/OpiniumResearch/status/1677758557029105664

    And with 8% RefUK vote to squeeze too
    Quite. There's no way on God's Earth that RefUK are going to poll 8% in a General Election, or anywhere remotely close. Most of that lot are pissed off Tory supporters who have a tantrum when talking to pollsters, but will traipse back home again when the Government of the country is at stake.
    In 2015, UKIP got 13%. It was 2% at the last two elections. 3% in 2010. 2% in the two elections before that. So, who knows and maybe there are betting opportunities, but at least 2% wouldn’t be a surprise. Call it 2% and that leaves 6% to play with… but not all of that will go to the Tories. Some will not vote, some will vote Labour, some will vote for some other none of the above-like option. I suggest at best there’s 4% who will come back to the Tories and it could be a lot lower.

    The other question is will they traipse back regardless, or does Sunak have to work to get them back, as HYUFD argues? Because work to get them back might put off other voters.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,900
    pigeon said:

    HYUFD said:

    A better poll for the Conservatives, but it comes to something when 28% is better:

    🚨 Latest poll for @ObserverUK Labour lead at 15 points.
    Labour: 43% (-1)
    Conservatives: 28% (+3)
    Lib Dems: 9% (n/c)
    SNP: 3% (n/c)
    Green: 6% (-1)
    Reform UK: 8% (+1)
    (Changes are from a poll released in the Observer last week)


    https://twitter.com/OpiniumResearch/status/1677758557029105664

    And with 8% RefUK vote to squeeze too
    Quite. There's no way on God's Earth that RefUK are going to poll 8% in a General Election, or anywhere remotely close. Most of that lot are pissed off Tory supporters who have a tantrum when talking to pollsters, but will traipse back home again when the Government of the country is at stake.
    They will? In 2019 we needed to vote Boris to Get Brexit Done. And yet enough kippers voted for the Brexit Party to deny the Tories a stack of wins in places like Stockton North
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 14,324
    Foxy said:

    A better poll for the Conservatives, but it comes to something when 28% is better:

    🚨 Latest poll for @ObserverUK Labour lead at 15 points.
    Labour: 43% (-1)
    Conservatives: 28% (+3)
    Lib Dems: 9% (n/c)
    SNP: 3% (n/c)
    Green: 6% (-1)
    Reform UK: 8% (+1)
    (Changes are from a poll released in the Observer last week)


    https://twitter.com/OpiniumResearch/status/1677758557029105664

    I believe Opinium have a march on the rest because of their application of swingback.

    A mid to high twenties lead for Labour is for the birds.
    Lab Majority of 176 on those figures, including slingback.

    https://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/fcgi-bin/usercode.py?scotcontrol=Y&tvcontrol=Y&CON=28&LAB=43&LIB=9&Reform=8&Green=6&UKIP=&TVCON=&TVLAB=&TVLIB=&TVReform=&TVGreen=&TVUKIP=&SCOTCON=18.5&SCOTLAB=31.5&SCOTLIB=7.8&SCOTReform=0&SCOTGreen=1.3&SCOTUKIP=&SCOTNAT=36.4&display=AllChanged&regorseat=(none)&boundary=2019base
    Slingback?

    Labour a shoe-in, then?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,812

    DavidL said:

    kle4 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    stop the boats

    @charleshymas
    Channel migrant crossings hit new daily record for 2023

    UK more popular than ever!
    Wait till they read about Brexit though. The beaches of France will be swamped with people trying to go the other way. Surely?
    We would, but we'll be repatriated back to Blighty after 90 days, so it hardly seems worthy of the effort.
    And then Rwanda. Sorts out the summer hols.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,553
    edited July 2023
    pigeon said:

    HYUFD said:

    A better poll for the Conservatives, but it comes to something when 28% is better:

    🚨 Latest poll for @ObserverUK Labour lead at 15 points.
    Labour: 43% (-1)
    Conservatives: 28% (+3)
    Lib Dems: 9% (n/c)
    SNP: 3% (n/c)
    Green: 6% (-1)
    Reform UK: 8% (+1)
    (Changes are from a poll released in the Observer last week)


    https://twitter.com/OpiniumResearch/status/1677758557029105664

    And with 8% RefUK vote to squeeze too
    Quite. There's no way on God's Earth that RefUK are going to poll 8% in a General Election, or anywhere remotely close. Most of that lot are pissed off Tory supporters who have a tantrum when talking to pollsters, but will traipse back home again when the Government of the country is at stake.
    I think they could get a similar share to UKIP in 2015 which was 12.9%.

    Why are you so convinced they won't get anything like 8%?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    ydoethur said:

    boulay said:

    Miklosvar said:

    One in 5 PMQs? Lazy Bugger Rishi!

    Oliver Dowden: "I'll go. I mean, I'm the only one qualified to remote-pilot Angela Rayner anyway."
    Angela Rayner is on her way out, SKS was trolling and signposting with his “oracy” plan.
    He's just following Bill Clinton's lead.

    No wait that wasn't oracy.
    Bill Clinton was an amazing politician who could have been America's finest president.

    But alas, he blew it.
    Surely. "the chance was blown" makes the joke better
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368

    A better poll for the Conservatives, but it comes to something when 28% is better:

    🚨 Latest poll for @ObserverUK Labour lead at 15 points.
    Labour: 43% (-1)
    Conservatives: 28% (+3)
    Lib Dems: 9% (n/c)
    SNP: 3% (n/c)
    Green: 6% (-1)
    Reform UK: 8% (+1)
    (Changes are from a poll released in the Observer last week)


    https://twitter.com/OpiniumResearch/status/1677758557029105664

    Broken, sleazy Tories on the RISE???
    Thanks to the artistic genius of Honest Bob Jenrick?
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,956
    HYUFD said:

    Scottish subsample klaxon, Opinium edition.

    SNP in danger of finishing third in Scotland behind the Tories.

    Labour 31%

    SNP 31%

    SCons 28%

    I mean it is a subsample so as about as accurate as an American war movie.

    Indeed but if the SNP finished third in Scotland on votes and seats that would be even more humiliating for Yousaf than the next election is likely to be for Rishi.
    Sock puppet whose party has gaping wound of polling in the low 20s squeezes tiny bit of Scotch subsample ointment to staunch the bleeding. The bleeding did not stop.
  • Clutch_BromptonClutch_Brompton Posts: 737
    edited July 2023
    pigeon said:

    HYUFD said:

    A better poll for the Conservatives, but it comes to something when 28% is better:

    🚨 Latest poll for @ObserverUK Labour lead at 15 points.
    Labour: 43% (-1)
    Conservatives: 28% (+3)
    Lib Dems: 9% (n/c)
    SNP: 3% (n/c)
    Green: 6% (-1)
    Reform UK: 8% (+1)
    (Changes are from a poll released in the Observer last week)


    https://twitter.com/OpiniumResearch/status/1677758557029105664

    And with 8% RefUK vote to squeeze too
    Quite. There's no way on God's Earth that RefUK are going to poll 8% in a General Election, or anywhere remotely close. Most of that lot are pissed off Tory supporters who have a tantrum when talking to pollsters, but will traipse back home again when the Government of the country is at stake.
    Opinium rarely shows sharp swings - outside of the Mini-Budget of course. The movement of 6% to Labour last time has now largely corrected itself and put Opinium where you would expect it to be - a few points favourable to the Cons compared to other pollsters. Of course they have already corrected for the Con Don't Knows drifting back.

    You can expect Ref UK to poll at least 2-4% if they field a full slate - which they state they will do. Of the remaining 4% how many of them are backing Ref UK because the Con leader is Mr Sunak? Be that for 'Sunak the Snake' reasons or due to his ethnicity (or both). How many of those folk are squeezable? Aren't they much like the Corbynites within the Green vote? Another faction within the Ref UK bandwagon are the anti-vaxxer crowd. My experience is that a lot of them are very anti-Mr Sunak. He is 'Mr Globalist' to them.

    I suspect the Cons can gain 1 or 2% of the current Ref UK vote. Very little more and to get that they need to be perceived to be close enough to bring the 'squeeze' into effect. Unless they get the fundamentals right they won't even get that.

    Its really simple Cons - you need to govern better and you need a fierce purge of the more show-boating and less competent members of the Cabinet. it really isn't rocket science. Having duds in key departments is not a good look!
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,812

    Just Stop Oil with some orange confetti for just-married George Osborne
    https://twitter.com/i/status/1677745464903454722

    These people really piss me off.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,553
    A couple of hours ago - encountered the worst scrum at Euston station I can remember. About 500 people running to get on a train with 4 carriages.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,405
    dixiedean said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Coreta, 47, a manager from Somerton, called the prime minister “a weak dog”. Ann, 72, from Selby, focused on his small physical stature. “He is a little mouse to look at,” she said. “I hate seeing him alongside other statesmen because he looks so tiny.” Craig, 39, a software tester from Selby, was blunter still: “I’d probably say a dodo for Rishi, because he’s pretty much dead to me like a dodo.”

    Tryl, who acted as the moderator, said: “These were by far the worst set of groups we’ve done on impressions of Rishi Sunak. Whereas previously people have been willing to give him some benefit of the doubt, and usually fell back on the fact that even if he’s out of touch he’s competent and the best person to clear up the mess from Boris Johnson and Liz Truss, things have shifted. The cost of living crisis being compounded with the mortgage crisis has exacerbated Sunak’s personal weaknesses.”


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/dead-like-a-dodo-by-election-voters-are-giving-rishi-sunak-both-barrels-pbz5zpvfb

    I know people don't like bringing up his height but it is an issue for the voters.
    Why?
    Am genuinely curious.
    It’s human instinct. Tall men are more successful, get more sex etc etc.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,663

    Foxy said:

    A better poll for the Conservatives, but it comes to something when 28% is better:

    🚨 Latest poll for @ObserverUK Labour lead at 15 points.
    Labour: 43% (-1)
    Conservatives: 28% (+3)
    Lib Dems: 9% (n/c)
    SNP: 3% (n/c)
    Green: 6% (-1)
    Reform UK: 8% (+1)
    (Changes are from a poll released in the Observer last week)


    https://twitter.com/OpiniumResearch/status/1677758557029105664

    I believe Opinium have a march on the rest because of their application of swingback.

    A mid to high twenties lead for Labour is for the birds.
    Lab Majority of 176 on those figures, including slingback.

    https://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/fcgi-bin/usercode.py?scotcontrol=Y&tvcontrol=Y&CON=28&LAB=43&LIB=9&Reform=8&Green=6&UKIP=&TVCON=&TVLAB=&TVLIB=&TVReform=&TVGreen=&TVUKIP=&SCOTCON=18.5&SCOTLAB=31.5&SCOTLIB=7.8&SCOTReform=0&SCOTGreen=1.3&SCOTUKIP=&SCOTNAT=36.4&display=AllChanged&regorseat=(none)&boundary=2019base
    Slingback?

    Labour a shoe-in, then?
    And a landslide to boot.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,821

    🚨 Latest poll for @ObserverUK Labour lead at 15 points.

    Labour: 43% (-1)

    Conservatives: 28% (+3)

    Lib Dems: 9% (n/c)

    SNP: 3% (n/c)

    Green: 6% (-1)

    Reform UK: 8% (+1)

    (Changes are from a poll released in the Observer last week)

    https://twitter.com/OpiniumResearch/status/1677758557029105664

    It was 26 last time, so I would query +3.
    Wrong, there was a poll last weekend which had the Tories on 25%

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/jul/02/labour-under-pressure-to-axe-two-child-benefit-limit
    Not up on the Wikipedia page though.
    Wikipedia is wrong, I trust Opinium to know their own polls better than Wikipedia.
    It was 26%

    https://view.officeapps.live.com/op/view.aspx?src=https://www.opinium.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/VI-2023-06-21-Observer-Data-Tables.xlsx&wdOrigin=BROWSELINK
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368
    boulay said:

    DavidL said:

    kle4 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    stop the boats

    @charleshymas
    Channel migrant crossings hit new daily record for 2023

    UK more popular than ever!
    Wait till they read about Brexit though. The beaches of France will be swamped with people trying to go the other way. Surely?
    We would, but we'll be repatriated back to Blighty after 90 days, so it hardly seems worthy of the effort.
    If you fancy a cost of living busting summer holiday, get the family on a ferry to Calais, post all your docs home, get a small boat to the UK and get flown to a hotel in Rwanda and spend two weeks by the pool whilst you wait for your docs to be forwarded on to you. It’s a no brainier.
    Rwanda? With my luck I'll more likely get a month in the Llanelli rain at the Stradey Park Hotel.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,052
    pigeon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    stop the boats

    @charleshymas
    Channel migrant crossings hit new daily record for 2023

    A former Home Secretary writes:

    Stopping the boats is much harder than the Govt thought it would be….

    https://twitter.com/pritipatel/status/1677735811494694912

    It's all a bit "man the lifeboats, every MP for themselves" now.
    Nobody can "stop the boats" because the only practical means of doing so is to deploy lethal force, and however degenerate our Government becomes it seems highly improbable that it will resort to machine gunning the dinghies in the Channel as a means of persuading the boat people to give up.

    The politicians simply don't want to admit their powerlessness, that's all.
    The Tories deliberately chose to draw attention to their powerlessness… which begs the question why? Is it because they thought they could do something (and I suggest there is actually a lot a Government can do to influence the numbers), or is it because they thought that the fear arising from the perceived threat would work for them regardless?

  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,831

    HYUFD said:

    Scottish subsample klaxon, Opinium edition.

    SNP in danger of finishing third in Scotland behind the Tories.

    Labour 31%

    SNP 31%

    SCons 28%

    I mean it is a subsample so as about as accurate as an American war movie.

    Indeed but if the SNP finished third in Scotland on votes and seats that would be even more humiliating for Yousaf than the next election is likely to be for Rishi.
    Sock puppet whose party has gaping wound of polling in the low 20s squeezes tiny bit of Scotch subsample ointment to staunch the bleeding. The bleeding did not stop.
    *brings to mind* styptic pencil, as sold alongside rubber johnnies in gents hairdressers, what, 60 years ago?
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,822
    DavidL said:

    Just Stop Oil with some orange confetti for just-married George Osborne
    https://twitter.com/i/status/1677745464903454722

    These people really piss me off.
    Osborne and his wife? Or the protestors?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,831
    DavidL said:

    HYUFD said:

    DavidL said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scottish subsample klaxon, Opinium edition.

    SNP in danger of finishing third in Scotland behind the Tories.

    Labour 31%

    SNP 31%

    SCons 28%

    I mean it is a subsample so as about as accurate as an American war movie.

    Indeed but if the SNP finished third in Scotland on votes and seats that would be even more humiliating for Yousaf than the next election is likely to be for Rishi.
    100+ seats lost in England and Wales and 2 or 3 gains in Scotland for the Tories? Looks on to me.
    Yes Scotland has a habit of doing the opposite to England recently. 2010 saw Labour hold all its seats but the Tories win a majority in England. 2015 saw a Tory majority in England and the UK but an SNP landslide in Scotland. 2017 saw significant SNP losses to the Tories in Scotland but the Tories losing seats in England and their majority in the UK. 2019 saw the Conservatives win a majority in England and UK wide but lose over half their Scottish seats to the SNP.

    2024 looks no different in terms of the SNP and Tories at least but it does look like Starmer might break the mould by being the first main UK party leader since Blair to win big in England and Scotland
    We have our own elections up here and one of the things that concern me as a Unionist is how disaggregated they have become. A Labour government with a serious chunk of Scottish seats might improve that and I would welcome that, whatever reservations I have about SKS and his shadow cabinet.
    'disaggregated', meaning, please?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,631
    dixiedean said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Coreta, 47, a manager from Somerton, called the prime minister “a weak dog”. Ann, 72, from Selby, focused on his small physical stature. “He is a little mouse to look at,” she said. “I hate seeing him alongside other statesmen because he looks so tiny.” Craig, 39, a software tester from Selby, was blunter still: “I’d probably say a dodo for Rishi, because he’s pretty much dead to me like a dodo.”

    Tryl, who acted as the moderator, said: “These were by far the worst set of groups we’ve done on impressions of Rishi Sunak. Whereas previously people have been willing to give him some benefit of the doubt, and usually fell back on the fact that even if he’s out of touch he’s competent and the best person to clear up the mess from Boris Johnson and Liz Truss, things have shifted. The cost of living crisis being compounded with the mortgage crisis has exacerbated Sunak’s personal weaknesses.”


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/dead-like-a-dodo-by-election-voters-are-giving-rishi-sunak-both-barrels-pbz5zpvfb

    I know people don't like bringing up his height but it is an issue for the voters.
    Why?
    Am genuinely curious.
    It's a gravitas issue.

    Gravitas is a bit like pornography, hard to describe but you know it when you see it.

    Being a shortarse is seen as having a lack of gravitas.

    The voters are weird.

    It's a declining trend but in focus you'll occasionally hear a comment against a female politician saying she shouldn't be leader/PM because what if she has to make an important decision at that time of the month.

    Like no male politician has ever made decisions based on their reproductive organs.
  • MiklosvarMiklosvar Posts: 1,855

    Foxy said:

    A better poll for the Conservatives, but it comes to something when 28% is better:

    🚨 Latest poll for @ObserverUK Labour lead at 15 points.
    Labour: 43% (-1)
    Conservatives: 28% (+3)
    Lib Dems: 9% (n/c)
    SNP: 3% (n/c)
    Green: 6% (-1)
    Reform UK: 8% (+1)
    (Changes are from a poll released in the Observer last week)


    https://twitter.com/OpiniumResearch/status/1677758557029105664

    I believe Opinium have a march on the rest because of their application of swingback.

    A mid to high twenties lead for Labour is for the birds.
    Lab Majority of 176 on those figures, including slingback.

    https://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/fcgi-bin/usercode.py?scotcontrol=Y&tvcontrol=Y&CON=28&LAB=43&LIB=9&Reform=8&Green=6&UKIP=&TVCON=&TVLAB=&TVLIB=&TVReform=&TVGreen=&TVUKIP=&SCOTCON=18.5&SCOTLAB=31.5&SCOTLIB=7.8&SCOTReform=0&SCOTGreen=1.3&SCOTUKIP=&SCOTNAT=36.4&display=AllChanged&regorseat=(none)&boundary=2019base
    Slingback?

    Labour a shoe-in, then?
    We should keep an eye on the belle weather constituencies.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368
    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scottish subsample klaxon, Opinium edition.

    SNP in danger of finishing third in Scotland behind the Tories.

    Labour 31%

    SNP 31%

    SCons 28%

    I mean it is a subsample so as about as accurate as an American war movie.

    Indeed but if the SNP finished third in Scotland on votes and seats that would be even more humiliating for Yousaf than the next election is likely to be for Rishi.
    Sock puppet whose party has gaping wound of polling in the low 20s squeezes tiny bit of Scotch subsample ointment to staunch the bleeding. The bleeding did not stop.
    *brings to mind* styptic pencil, as sold alongside rubber johnnies in gents hairdressers, what, 60 years ago?
    Something for the weekend Sir?
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,052

    pigeon said:

    HYUFD said:

    A better poll for the Conservatives, but it comes to something when 28% is better:

    🚨 Latest poll for @ObserverUK Labour lead at 15 points.
    Labour: 43% (-1)
    Conservatives: 28% (+3)
    Lib Dems: 9% (n/c)
    SNP: 3% (n/c)
    Green: 6% (-1)
    Reform UK: 8% (+1)
    (Changes are from a poll released in the Observer last week)


    https://twitter.com/OpiniumResearch/status/1677758557029105664

    And with 8% RefUK vote to squeeze too
    Quite. There's no way on God's Earth that RefUK are going to poll 8% in a General Election, or anywhere remotely close. Most of that lot are pissed off Tory supporters who have a tantrum when talking to pollsters, but will traipse back home again when the Government of the country is at stake.
    Opinium rarely shows sharp swings - outside of the Mini-Budget of course. The movement of 6% to Labour last time has now largely corrected itself and put Opinium where you would expect it to be - a few points favourable to the Cons compared to other pollsters. Of course they have already corrected for the Con Don't Knows drifting back.

    You can expect Ref UK to poll at least 2-4% if they field a full slate - which they state they will do. Of the remaining 4% how many of them are backing Ref UK because the Con leader is Mr Sunak? Be that for 'Sunak the Snake' reasons or due to his ethnicity (or both). How many of those folk are squeezable? Aren't they much like the Corbynites within the Green vote? Another faction within the Ref UK bandwagon are the anti-vaxxer crowd. My experience is that a lot of them are very anti-Mr Sunak. He is 'Mr Globalist' to them.

    I suspect the Cons can gain 1 or 2% of the current Ref UK vote. Very little more and to get that they need to be perceived to be close enough to bring the 'squeeze' into effect. Unless they get the fundamentals right they won't even get that.

    Its really simple Cons - you need to govern better and you need a fierce purge of the more show-boating and less competent members of the Cabinet. it really isn't rocket science. Having duds in key departments is not a good look!
    There’s some joke to be done about showboating and stop the boats, but I’m too lazy to work it out.
  • twistedfirestopper3twistedfirestopper3 Posts: 2,421
    edited July 2023
    .
    DavidL said:

    Just Stop Oil with some orange confetti for just-married George Osborne
    https://twitter.com/i/status/1677745464903454722

    These people really piss me off.
    I've got no time for the bloke, and broadly agree with JSO's aims, but that is bang out of order. It's petty and mean spirited.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,831

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scottish subsample klaxon, Opinium edition.

    SNP in danger of finishing third in Scotland behind the Tories.

    Labour 31%

    SNP 31%

    SCons 28%

    I mean it is a subsample so as about as accurate as an American war movie.

    Indeed but if the SNP finished third in Scotland on votes and seats that would be even more humiliating for Yousaf than the next election is likely to be for Rishi.
    Sock puppet whose party has gaping wound of polling in the low 20s squeezes tiny bit of Scotch subsample ointment to staunch the bleeding. The bleeding did not stop.
    *brings to mind* styptic pencil, as sold alongside rubber johnnies in gents hairdressers, what, 60 years ago?
    Something for the weekend Sir?
    Wasn't old enough for that. I used to be puzzled by the little clock with the reference to family planning.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,812
    Carnyx said:

    DavidL said:

    HYUFD said:

    DavidL said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scottish subsample klaxon, Opinium edition.

    SNP in danger of finishing third in Scotland behind the Tories.

    Labour 31%

    SNP 31%

    SCons 28%

    I mean it is a subsample so as about as accurate as an American war movie.

    Indeed but if the SNP finished third in Scotland on votes and seats that would be even more humiliating for Yousaf than the next election is likely to be for Rishi.
    100+ seats lost in England and Wales and 2 or 3 gains in Scotland for the Tories? Looks on to me.
    Yes Scotland has a habit of doing the opposite to England recently. 2010 saw Labour hold all its seats but the Tories win a majority in England. 2015 saw a Tory majority in England and the UK but an SNP landslide in Scotland. 2017 saw significant SNP losses to the Tories in Scotland but the Tories losing seats in England and their majority in the UK. 2019 saw the Conservatives win a majority in England and UK wide but lose over half their Scottish seats to the SNP.

    2024 looks no different in terms of the SNP and Tories at least but it does look like Starmer might break the mould by being the first main UK party leader since Blair to win big in England and Scotland
    We have our own elections up here and one of the things that concern me as a Unionist is how disaggregated they have become. A Labour government with a serious chunk of Scottish seats might improve that and I would welcome that, whatever reservations I have about SKS and his shadow cabinet.
    'disaggregated', meaning, please?
    Not being influenced by the same factors, not moving in the same direction, not correlated.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,921
    edited July 2023

    dixiedean said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Coreta, 47, a manager from Somerton, called the prime minister “a weak dog”. Ann, 72, from Selby, focused on his small physical stature. “He is a little mouse to look at,” she said. “I hate seeing him alongside other statesmen because he looks so tiny.” Craig, 39, a software tester from Selby, was blunter still: “I’d probably say a dodo for Rishi, because he’s pretty much dead to me like a dodo.”

    Tryl, who acted as the moderator, said: “These were by far the worst set of groups we’ve done on impressions of Rishi Sunak. Whereas previously people have been willing to give him some benefit of the doubt, and usually fell back on the fact that even if he’s out of touch he’s competent and the best person to clear up the mess from Boris Johnson and Liz Truss, things have shifted. The cost of living crisis being compounded with the mortgage crisis has exacerbated Sunak’s personal weaknesses.”


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/dead-like-a-dodo-by-election-voters-are-giving-rishi-sunak-both-barrels-pbz5zpvfb

    I know people don't like bringing up his height but it is an issue for the voters.
    Why?
    Am genuinely curious.
    It's a gravitas issue.

    Gravitas is a bit like pornography, hard to describe but you know it when you see it.

    Being a shortarse is seen as having a lack of gravitas.

    The voters are weird.

    It's a declining trend but in focus you'll occasionally hear a comment against a female politician saying she shouldn't be leader/PM because what if she has to make an important decision at that time of the month.

    Like no male politician has ever made decisions based on their reproductive organs.
    On that basis I suppose the very shortarse Napoleon Bonaparte had no gravitas, despite conquering half of Europe and creating the basis for modern French law.

    Not that I would suggest Rishi has a Napoleon complex of course
  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,486
    Miklosvar said:

    Foxy said:

    A better poll for the Conservatives, but it comes to something when 28% is better:

    🚨 Latest poll for @ObserverUK Labour lead at 15 points.
    Labour: 43% (-1)
    Conservatives: 28% (+3)
    Lib Dems: 9% (n/c)
    SNP: 3% (n/c)
    Green: 6% (-1)
    Reform UK: 8% (+1)
    (Changes are from a poll released in the Observer last week)


    https://twitter.com/OpiniumResearch/status/1677758557029105664

    I believe Opinium have a march on the rest because of their application of swingback.

    A mid to high twenties lead for Labour is for the birds.
    Lab Majority of 176 on those figures, including slingback.

    https://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/fcgi-bin/usercode.py?scotcontrol=Y&tvcontrol=Y&CON=28&LAB=43&LIB=9&Reform=8&Green=6&UKIP=&TVCON=&TVLAB=&TVLIB=&TVReform=&TVGreen=&TVUKIP=&SCOTCON=18.5&SCOTLAB=31.5&SCOTLIB=7.8&SCOTReform=0&SCOTGreen=1.3&SCOTUKIP=&SCOTNAT=36.4&display=AllChanged&regorseat=(none)&boundary=2019base
    Slingback?

    Labour a shoe-in, then?
    We should keep an eye on the belle weather constituencies.
    I don’t think we can take anything for granted, there is still plenty of time for voters to Choos a government.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,663

    pigeon said:

    HYUFD said:

    A better poll for the Conservatives, but it comes to something when 28% is better:

    🚨 Latest poll for @ObserverUK Labour lead at 15 points.
    Labour: 43% (-1)
    Conservatives: 28% (+3)
    Lib Dems: 9% (n/c)
    SNP: 3% (n/c)
    Green: 6% (-1)
    Reform UK: 8% (+1)
    (Changes are from a poll released in the Observer last week)


    https://twitter.com/OpiniumResearch/status/1677758557029105664

    And with 8% RefUK vote to squeeze too
    Quite. There's no way on God's Earth that RefUK are going to poll 8% in a General Election, or anywhere remotely close. Most of that lot are pissed off Tory supporters who have a tantrum when talking to pollsters, but will traipse back home again when the Government of the country is at stake.
    Opinium rarely shows sharp swings - outside of the Mini-Budget of course. The movement of 6% to Labour last time has now largely corrected itself and put Opinium where you would expect it to be - a few points favourable to the Cons compared to other pollsters. Of course they have already corrected for the Con Don't Knows drifting back.

    You can expect Ref UK to poll at least 2-4% if they field a full slate - which they state they will do. Of the remaining 4% how many of them are backing Ref UK because the Con leader is Mr Sunak? Be that for 'Sunak the Snake' reasons or due to his ethnicity (or both). How many of those folk are squeezable? Aren't they much like the Corbynites within the Green vote? Another faction within the Ref UK bandwagon are the anti-vaxxer crowd. My experience is that a lot of them are very anti-Mr Sunak. He is 'Mr Globalist' to them.

    I suspect the Cons can gain 1 or 2% of the current Ref UK vote. Very little more and to get that they need to be perceived to be close enough to bring the 'squeeze' into effect. Unless they get the fundamentals right they won't even get that.

    Its really simple Cons - you need to govern better and you need a fierce purge of the more show-boating and less competent members of the Cabinet. it really isn't rocket science. Having duds in key departments is not a good look!
    There’s some joke to be done about showboating and stop the boats, but I’m too lazy to work it out.
    Too much showboating and too many boats showing?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,831
    DavidL said:

    Carnyx said:

    DavidL said:

    HYUFD said:

    DavidL said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scottish subsample klaxon, Opinium edition.

    SNP in danger of finishing third in Scotland behind the Tories.

    Labour 31%

    SNP 31%

    SCons 28%

    I mean it is a subsample so as about as accurate as an American war movie.

    Indeed but if the SNP finished third in Scotland on votes and seats that would be even more humiliating for Yousaf than the next election is likely to be for Rishi.
    100+ seats lost in England and Wales and 2 or 3 gains in Scotland for the Tories? Looks on to me.
    Yes Scotland has a habit of doing the opposite to England recently. 2010 saw Labour hold all its seats but the Tories win a majority in England. 2015 saw a Tory majority in England and the UK but an SNP landslide in Scotland. 2017 saw significant SNP losses to the Tories in Scotland but the Tories losing seats in England and their majority in the UK. 2019 saw the Conservatives win a majority in England and UK wide but lose over half their Scottish seats to the SNP.

    2024 looks no different in terms of the SNP and Tories at least but it does look like Starmer might break the mould by being the first main UK party leader since Blair to win big in England and Scotland
    We have our own elections up here and one of the things that concern me as a Unionist is how disaggregated they have become. A Labour government with a serious chunk of Scottish seats might improve that and I would welcome that, whatever reservations I have about SKS and his shadow cabinet.
    'disaggregated', meaning, please?
    Not being influenced by the same factors, not moving in the same direction, not correlated.
    Thanks. Which, I suppose, is an indication of (a) devolution and (b) more generally a distinct polity.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,033
    edited July 2023
    Interesting on immigration from tonight's Opinium

    58% think net mitigation is too high to 28% who think it is about right or too low

    https://twitter.com/OpiniumResearch/status/1677758571470106827?s=20

    Also

    When we asked about whether the UK needs more or less of specific occupations though, most were net "more":

    Service workers (such as hotel and bar staff): 34% "more" vs. 24% "fewer"

    Healthcare workers: 63% "more" vs. 13% "fewer"

    Teachers and lecturers: 35% "more" vs. 19% "fewer"
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 14,324

    dixiedean said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Coreta, 47, a manager from Somerton, called the prime minister “a weak dog”. Ann, 72, from Selby, focused on his small physical stature. “He is a little mouse to look at,” she said. “I hate seeing him alongside other statesmen because he looks so tiny.” Craig, 39, a software tester from Selby, was blunter still: “I’d probably say a dodo for Rishi, because he’s pretty much dead to me like a dodo.”

    Tryl, who acted as the moderator, said: “These were by far the worst set of groups we’ve done on impressions of Rishi Sunak. Whereas previously people have been willing to give him some benefit of the doubt, and usually fell back on the fact that even if he’s out of touch he’s competent and the best person to clear up the mess from Boris Johnson and Liz Truss, things have shifted. The cost of living crisis being compounded with the mortgage crisis has exacerbated Sunak’s personal weaknesses.”


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/dead-like-a-dodo-by-election-voters-are-giving-rishi-sunak-both-barrels-pbz5zpvfb

    I know people don't like bringing up his height but it is an issue for the voters.
    Why?
    Am genuinely curious.
    It’s human instinct. Tall men are more successful, get more sex etc etc.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KgMcYaH05lE
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277

    .

    DavidL said:

    Just Stop Oil with some orange confetti for just-married George Osborne
    https://twitter.com/i/status/1677745464903454722

    These people really piss me off.
    I've got no time for the bloke, and broadly agree with JSO's aims, but that is bang out of order. It's petty and mean spirited.
    it's wanky. Juvenile. Embarrassing. Just Stop Arsing About

    it actually trivialises their cause, by being so infantile
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,812
    Carnyx said:

    DavidL said:

    Carnyx said:

    DavidL said:

    HYUFD said:

    DavidL said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scottish subsample klaxon, Opinium edition.

    SNP in danger of finishing third in Scotland behind the Tories.

    Labour 31%

    SNP 31%

    SCons 28%

    I mean it is a subsample so as about as accurate as an American war movie.

    Indeed but if the SNP finished third in Scotland on votes and seats that would be even more humiliating for Yousaf than the next election is likely to be for Rishi.
    100+ seats lost in England and Wales and 2 or 3 gains in Scotland for the Tories? Looks on to me.
    Yes Scotland has a habit of doing the opposite to England recently. 2010 saw Labour hold all its seats but the Tories win a majority in England. 2015 saw a Tory majority in England and the UK but an SNP landslide in Scotland. 2017 saw significant SNP losses to the Tories in Scotland but the Tories losing seats in England and their majority in the UK. 2019 saw the Conservatives win a majority in England and UK wide but lose over half their Scottish seats to the SNP.

    2024 looks no different in terms of the SNP and Tories at least but it does look like Starmer might break the mould by being the first main UK party leader since Blair to win big in England and Scotland
    We have our own elections up here and one of the things that concern me as a Unionist is how disaggregated they have become. A Labour government with a serious chunk of Scottish seats might improve that and I would welcome that, whatever reservations I have about SKS and his shadow cabinet.
    'disaggregated', meaning, please?
    Not being influenced by the same factors, not moving in the same direction, not correlated.
    Thanks. Which, I suppose, is an indication of (a) devolution and (b) more generally a distinct polity.
    Yes, which is why as a Unionist I don't like it. We are having our own conversation up here and it is no longer a UK one. I hope that changes.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,486

    Interesting on immigration from tonight's Opinium

    58% think net mitigation is too high to 28% who think it is about right or too low

    https://twitter.com/OpiniumResearch/status/1677758571470106827?s=20

    Also

    When we asked about whether the UK needs more or less of specific occupations though, most were net "more":

    Service workers (such as hotel and bar staff): 34% "more" vs. 24% "fewer"

    Healthcare workers: 63% "more" vs. 13% "fewer"

    Teachers and lecturers: 35% "more" vs. 19% "fewer"

    I’m absolutely against mitigation. I’m with the 58% who think it’s too high.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,033
    edited July 2023
    On the NHS 41% are satisfied to 34% who are dissatisfied

    https://twitter.com/OpiniumResearch/status/1677758575328780288?s=20
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,631
    HYUFD said:

    dixiedean said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Coreta, 47, a manager from Somerton, called the prime minister “a weak dog”. Ann, 72, from Selby, focused on his small physical stature. “He is a little mouse to look at,” she said. “I hate seeing him alongside other statesmen because he looks so tiny.” Craig, 39, a software tester from Selby, was blunter still: “I’d probably say a dodo for Rishi, because he’s pretty much dead to me like a dodo.”

    Tryl, who acted as the moderator, said: “These were by far the worst set of groups we’ve done on impressions of Rishi Sunak. Whereas previously people have been willing to give him some benefit of the doubt, and usually fell back on the fact that even if he’s out of touch he’s competent and the best person to clear up the mess from Boris Johnson and Liz Truss, things have shifted. The cost of living crisis being compounded with the mortgage crisis has exacerbated Sunak’s personal weaknesses.”


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/dead-like-a-dodo-by-election-voters-are-giving-rishi-sunak-both-barrels-pbz5zpvfb

    I know people don't like bringing up his height but it is an issue for the voters.
    Why?
    Am genuinely curious.
    It's a gravitas issue.

    Gravitas is a bit like pornography, hard to describe but you know it when you see it.

    Being a shortarse is seen as having a lack of gravitas.

    The voters are weird.

    It's a declining trend but in focus you'll occasionally hear a comment against a female politician saying she shouldn't be leader/PM because what if she has to make an important decision at that time of the month.

    Like no male politician has ever made decisions based on their reproductive organs.
    On that basis I suppose the very shortarse Napoleon Bonaparte had no gravitas, despite conquering half of Europe and creating the basis for modern French law
    Bonaparte wasn't a shortarse, it was only inaccurate British media reporting that said he was.

    Though it’s hard to say if and why the British invented the short Napoleon trope, there is some truth in Cruikshank’s representation: Napoleon was probably significantly shorter than his troops.

    Several sources note that his elite guards were taller than most Frenchmen, and thus Napoleon had the appearance of being shorter than he really was. Yet interpretations of Napoleon’s death certificate estimate that his height when he died was between 5’2” and 5’7” (1.58 and 1.7 meters).

    The discrepancy is often explained by the disparity between the 19th-century French inch, which was 2.71 cm, and the current inch measurement, which is 2.54 cm. Sources consequently estimate that Napoleon was probably closer to 5’6” or 5’7” (1.68 or 1.7 meters) than to 5’2”.

    Although the range may seem short by 21st-century standards, it was typical in the 19th century, when most Frenchmen stood between 5’2” and 5’6” (1.58 and 1.68 meters) tall. Napoleon was thus average or taller, no matter the interpretation.


    https://www.britannica.com/story/was-napoleon-short
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,831
    edited July 2023
    DavidL said:

    Carnyx said:

    DavidL said:

    Carnyx said:

    DavidL said:

    HYUFD said:

    DavidL said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scottish subsample klaxon, Opinium edition.

    SNP in danger of finishing third in Scotland behind the Tories.

    Labour 31%

    SNP 31%

    SCons 28%

    I mean it is a subsample so as about as accurate as an American war movie.

    Indeed but if the SNP finished third in Scotland on votes and seats that would be even more humiliating for Yousaf than the next election is likely to be for Rishi.
    100+ seats lost in England and Wales and 2 or 3 gains in Scotland for the Tories? Looks on to me.
    Yes Scotland has a habit of doing the opposite to England recently. 2010 saw Labour hold all its seats but the Tories win a majority in England. 2015 saw a Tory majority in England and the UK but an SNP landslide in Scotland. 2017 saw significant SNP losses to the Tories in Scotland but the Tories losing seats in England and their majority in the UK. 2019 saw the Conservatives win a majority in England and UK wide but lose over half their Scottish seats to the SNP.

    2024 looks no different in terms of the SNP and Tories at least but it does look like Starmer might break the mould by being the first main UK party leader since Blair to win big in England and Scotland
    We have our own elections up here and one of the things that concern me as a Unionist is how disaggregated they have become. A Labour government with a serious chunk of Scottish seats might improve that and I would welcome that, whatever reservations I have about SKS and his shadow cabinet.
    'disaggregated', meaning, please?
    Not being influenced by the same factors, not moving in the same direction, not correlated.
    Thanks. Which, I suppose, is an indication of (a) devolution and (b) more generally a distinct polity.
    Yes, which is why as a Unionist I don't like it. We are having our own conversation up here and it is no longer a UK one. I hope that changes.
    On the other hand, any insistence that all conversations have to be the same across the UK - or the imposition of suich a doctrine - would be a priori unreasonable and inherently very damaging to the concept of a UK.

    Edit: though I hasten to add you aren't saying that.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,496
    Andy_JS said:

    pigeon said:

    HYUFD said:

    A better poll for the Conservatives, but it comes to something when 28% is better:

    🚨 Latest poll for @ObserverUK Labour lead at 15 points.
    Labour: 43% (-1)
    Conservatives: 28% (+3)
    Lib Dems: 9% (n/c)
    SNP: 3% (n/c)
    Green: 6% (-1)
    Reform UK: 8% (+1)
    (Changes are from a poll released in the Observer last week)


    https://twitter.com/OpiniumResearch/status/1677758557029105664

    And with 8% RefUK vote to squeeze too
    Quite. There's no way on God's Earth that RefUK are going to poll 8% in a General Election, or anywhere remotely close. Most of that lot are pissed off Tory supporters who have a tantrum when talking to pollsters, but will traipse back home again when the Government of the country is at stake.
    I think they could get a similar share to UKIP in 2015 which was 12.9%.

    Why are you so convinced they won't get anything like 8%?
    In the actual world no-one has heard of Reform party or whatever it's called.

    Polling is pretty variable, and obviously the Tories are, justly, in some sort of terminal trouble.

    For trying to predict the actual result in 2024 at the moment I would factor in these things as things stand:

    1) There aren't going to be huge votes that make much difference for parties other than C, LD, Lab and SNP.
    2) Sir K is not Blair; balanced by the fact that Rishi is not Major.
    3) In 1997 the actual GE vote was, in round figures: Lab 43. Con 31
    4) I think the 2024 GE vote will be not far from the 1997 figures, within about 3 percent points (Lab 40-46, Con 28-34) though geographically differently distributed, and turnout low
    5) Tactical voting won't help the Tories
  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,486
    edited July 2023
    HYUFD said:

    dixiedean said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Coreta, 47, a manager from Somerton, called the prime minister “a weak dog”. Ann, 72, from Selby, focused on his small physical stature. “He is a little mouse to look at,” she said. “I hate seeing him alongside other statesmen because he looks so tiny.” Craig, 39, a software tester from Selby, was blunter still: “I’d probably say a dodo for Rishi, because he’s pretty much dead to me like a dodo.”

    Tryl, who acted as the moderator, said: “These were by far the worst set of groups we’ve done on impressions of Rishi Sunak. Whereas previously people have been willing to give him some benefit of the doubt, and usually fell back on the fact that even if he’s out of touch he’s competent and the best person to clear up the mess from Boris Johnson and Liz Truss, things have shifted. The cost of living crisis being compounded with the mortgage crisis has exacerbated Sunak’s personal weaknesses.”


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/dead-like-a-dodo-by-election-voters-are-giving-rishi-sunak-both-barrels-pbz5zpvfb

    I know people don't like bringing up his height but it is an issue for the voters.
    Why?
    Am genuinely curious.
    It's a gravitas issue.

    Gravitas is a bit like pornography, hard to describe but you know it when you see it.

    Being a shortarse is seen as having a lack of gravitas.

    The voters are weird.

    It's a declining trend but in focus you'll occasionally hear a comment against a female politician saying she shouldn't be leader/PM because what if she has to make an important decision at that time of the month.

    Like no male politician has ever made decisions based on their reproductive organs.
    On that basis I suppose the very shortarse Napoleon Bonaparte had no gravitas, despite conquering half of Europe and creating the basis for modern French law.

    Not that I would suggest Rishi has a Napoleon complex of course
    Napoleon wasn’t short for a European man of his time.

    Edit as much as I hate him I think it was the Punch cartoonists who made this a 19th century meme.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,663
    edited July 2023
    Miklosvar said:

    Foxy said:

    A better poll for the Conservatives, but it comes to something when 28% is better:

    🚨 Latest poll for @ObserverUK Labour lead at 15 points.
    Labour: 43% (-1)
    Conservatives: 28% (+3)
    Lib Dems: 9% (n/c)
    SNP: 3% (n/c)
    Green: 6% (-1)
    Reform UK: 8% (+1)
    (Changes are from a poll released in the Observer last week)


    https://twitter.com/OpiniumResearch/status/1677758557029105664

    I believe Opinium have a march on the rest because of their application of swingback.

    A mid to high twenties lead for Labour is for the birds.
    Lab Majority of 176 on those figures, including slingback.

    https://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/fcgi-bin/usercode.py?scotcontrol=Y&tvcontrol=Y&CON=28&LAB=43&LIB=9&Reform=8&Green=6&UKIP=&TVCON=&TVLAB=&TVLIB=&TVReform=&TVGreen=&TVUKIP=&SCOTCON=18.5&SCOTLAB=31.5&SCOTLIB=7.8&SCOTReform=0&SCOTGreen=1.3&SCOTUKIP=&SCOTNAT=36.4&display=AllChanged&regorseat=(none)&boundary=2019base
    Slingback?

    Labour a shoe-in, then?
    We should keep an eye on the belle weather constituencies.
    So, Eastbourne (sunniest) and St Ives (warmest) - these seem the plus belle weather constituencies.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368

    Interesting on immigration from tonight's Opinium

    58% think net mitigation is too high to 28% who think it is about right or too low

    https://twitter.com/OpiniumResearch/status/1677758571470106827?s=20

    Also

    When we asked about whether the UK needs more or less of specific occupations though, most were net "more":

    Service workers (such as hotel and bar staff): 34% "more" vs. 24% "fewer"

    Healthcare workers: 63% "more" vs. 13% "fewer"

    Teachers and lecturers: 35% "more" vs. 19% "fewer"

    The conflation of boat people and key immigrant workers by the swivel eyed element of the New Conservatives confuses the great unwashed.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,033
    Carnyx said:

    DavidL said:

    Carnyx said:

    DavidL said:

    Carnyx said:

    DavidL said:

    HYUFD said:

    DavidL said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scottish subsample klaxon, Opinium edition.

    SNP in danger of finishing third in Scotland behind the Tories.

    Labour 31%

    SNP 31%

    SCons 28%

    I mean it is a subsample so as about as accurate as an American war movie.

    Indeed but if the SNP finished third in Scotland on votes and seats that would be even more humiliating for Yousaf than the next election is likely to be for Rishi.
    100+ seats lost in England and Wales and 2 or 3 gains in Scotland for the Tories? Looks on to me.
    Yes Scotland has a habit of doing the opposite to England recently. 2010 saw Labour hold all its seats but the Tories win a majority in England. 2015 saw a Tory majority in England and the UK but an SNP landslide in Scotland. 2017 saw significant SNP losses to the Tories in Scotland but the Tories losing seats in England and their majority in the UK. 2019 saw the Conservatives win a majority in England and UK wide but lose over half their Scottish seats to the SNP.

    2024 looks no different in terms of the SNP and Tories at least but it does look like Starmer might break the mould by being the first main UK party leader since Blair to win big in England and Scotland
    We have our own elections up here and one of the things that concern me as a Unionist is how disaggregated they have become. A Labour government with a serious chunk of Scottish seats might improve that and I would welcome that, whatever reservations I have about SKS and his shadow cabinet.
    'disaggregated', meaning, please?
    Not being influenced by the same factors, not moving in the same direction, not correlated.
    Thanks. Which, I suppose, is an indication of (a) devolution and (b) more generally a distinct polity.
    Yes, which is why as a Unionist I don't like it. We are having our own conversation up here and it is no longer a UK one. I hope that changes.
    On the other hand, any insistence that all conversations have to be the same across the UK - or the imposition of suich a doctrine - would be a priori unreasonable and inherently very damaging to the concept of a UK.
    If the polls are to be believed labour are heading for a majority in Scotland Wales and England and a very large one overall at that
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,831

    Miklosvar said:

    Foxy said:

    A better poll for the Conservatives, but it comes to something when 28% is better:

    🚨 Latest poll for @ObserverUK Labour lead at 15 points.
    Labour: 43% (-1)
    Conservatives: 28% (+3)
    Lib Dems: 9% (n/c)
    SNP: 3% (n/c)
    Green: 6% (-1)
    Reform UK: 8% (+1)
    (Changes are from a poll released in the Observer last week)


    https://twitter.com/OpiniumResearch/status/1677758557029105664

    I believe Opinium have a march on the rest because of their application of swingback.

    A mid to high twenties lead for Labour is for the birds.
    Lab Majority of 176 on those figures, including slingback.

    https://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/fcgi-bin/usercode.py?scotcontrol=Y&tvcontrol=Y&CON=28&LAB=43&LIB=9&Reform=8&Green=6&UKIP=&TVCON=&TVLAB=&TVLIB=&TVReform=&TVGreen=&TVUKIP=&SCOTCON=18.5&SCOTLAB=31.5&SCOTLIB=7.8&SCOTReform=0&SCOTGreen=1.3&SCOTUKIP=&SCOTNAT=36.4&display=AllChanged&regorseat=(none)&boundary=2019base
    Slingback?

    Labour a shoe-in, then?
    We should keep an eye on the belle weather constituencies.
    So, Eastbourne (sunniest) and St Ives (warmest) - these seem the plus belle weather constituencies.
    Talking about Cornwall and sun, sea, surf and sex: private school pupils showing how posh and well-mannered they are.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/jul/08/in-the-morning-they-are-comatose-on-the-sand-the-cornish-village-fighting-back-against-private-school-parties

    Though it's not as if the state school pupils had been let out yet, admittedly.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,812

    DavidL said:

    Just Stop Oil with some orange confetti for just-married George Osborne
    https://twitter.com/i/status/1677745464903454722

    These people really piss me off.
    Osborne and his wife? Or the protestors?
    Seriously? The "protester" should be locked up for being an arsehole.
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 14,324
    boulay said:

    Interesting on immigration from tonight's Opinium

    58% think net mitigation is too high to 28% who think it is about right or too low

    https://twitter.com/OpiniumResearch/status/1677758571470106827?s=20

    Also

    When we asked about whether the UK needs more or less of specific occupations though, most were net "more":

    Service workers (such as hotel and bar staff): 34% "more" vs. 24% "fewer"

    Healthcare workers: 63% "more" vs. 13% "fewer"

    Teachers and lecturers: 35% "more" vs. 19% "fewer"

    I’m absolutely against mitigation. I’m with the 58% who think it’s too high.
    Does the mitigation include slingback?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,831

    Carnyx said:

    DavidL said:

    Carnyx said:

    DavidL said:

    Carnyx said:

    DavidL said:

    HYUFD said:

    DavidL said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scottish subsample klaxon, Opinium edition.

    SNP in danger of finishing third in Scotland behind the Tories.

    Labour 31%

    SNP 31%

    SCons 28%

    I mean it is a subsample so as about as accurate as an American war movie.

    Indeed but if the SNP finished third in Scotland on votes and seats that would be even more humiliating for Yousaf than the next election is likely to be for Rishi.
    100+ seats lost in England and Wales and 2 or 3 gains in Scotland for the Tories? Looks on to me.
    Yes Scotland has a habit of doing the opposite to England recently. 2010 saw Labour hold all its seats but the Tories win a majority in England. 2015 saw a Tory majority in England and the UK but an SNP landslide in Scotland. 2017 saw significant SNP losses to the Tories in Scotland but the Tories losing seats in England and their majority in the UK. 2019 saw the Conservatives win a majority in England and UK wide but lose over half their Scottish seats to the SNP.

    2024 looks no different in terms of the SNP and Tories at least but it does look like Starmer might break the mould by being the first main UK party leader since Blair to win big in England and Scotland
    We have our own elections up here and one of the things that concern me as a Unionist is how disaggregated they have become. A Labour government with a serious chunk of Scottish seats might improve that and I would welcome that, whatever reservations I have about SKS and his shadow cabinet.
    'disaggregated', meaning, please?
    Not being influenced by the same factors, not moving in the same direction, not correlated.
    Thanks. Which, I suppose, is an indication of (a) devolution and (b) more generally a distinct polity.
    Yes, which is why as a Unionist I don't like it. We are having our own conversation up here and it is no longer a UK one. I hope that changes.
    On the other hand, any insistence that all conversations have to be the same across the UK - or the imposition of suich a doctrine - would be a priori unreasonable and inherently very damaging to the concept of a UK.
    If the polls are to be believed labour are heading for a majority in Scotland Wales and England and a very large one overall at that
    Different doctrines, though. Brexit for one thing.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,663
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Just Stop Oil with some orange confetti for just-married George Osborne
    https://twitter.com/i/status/1677745464903454722

    These people really piss me off.
    Osborne and his wife? Or the protestors?
    Seriously? The "protester" should be locked up for being an arsehole.
    Was it an actual protest? I assumed it was a wedding guest throwing confetti.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277

    HYUFD said:

    dixiedean said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Coreta, 47, a manager from Somerton, called the prime minister “a weak dog”. Ann, 72, from Selby, focused on his small physical stature. “He is a little mouse to look at,” she said. “I hate seeing him alongside other statesmen because he looks so tiny.” Craig, 39, a software tester from Selby, was blunter still: “I’d probably say a dodo for Rishi, because he’s pretty much dead to me like a dodo.”

    Tryl, who acted as the moderator, said: “These were by far the worst set of groups we’ve done on impressions of Rishi Sunak. Whereas previously people have been willing to give him some benefit of the doubt, and usually fell back on the fact that even if he’s out of touch he’s competent and the best person to clear up the mess from Boris Johnson and Liz Truss, things have shifted. The cost of living crisis being compounded with the mortgage crisis has exacerbated Sunak’s personal weaknesses.”


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/dead-like-a-dodo-by-election-voters-are-giving-rishi-sunak-both-barrels-pbz5zpvfb

    I know people don't like bringing up his height but it is an issue for the voters.
    Why?
    Am genuinely curious.
    It's a gravitas issue.

    Gravitas is a bit like pornography, hard to describe but you know it when you see it.

    Being a shortarse is seen as having a lack of gravitas.

    The voters are weird.

    It's a declining trend but in focus you'll occasionally hear a comment against a female politician saying she shouldn't be leader/PM because what if she has to make an important decision at that time of the month.

    Like no male politician has ever made decisions based on their reproductive organs.
    On that basis I suppose the very shortarse Napoleon Bonaparte had no gravitas, despite conquering half of Europe and creating the basis for modern French law
    Bonaparte wasn't a shortarse, it was only inaccurate British media reporting that said he was.

    Though it’s hard to say if and why the British invented the short Napoleon trope, there is some truth in Cruikshank’s representation: Napoleon was probably significantly shorter than his troops.

    Several sources note that his elite guards were taller than most Frenchmen, and thus Napoleon had the appearance of being shorter than he really was. Yet interpretations of Napoleon’s death certificate estimate that his height when he died was between 5’2” and 5’7” (1.58 and 1.7 meters).

    The discrepancy is often explained by the disparity between the 19th-century French inch, which was 2.71 cm, and the current inch measurement, which is 2.54 cm. Sources consequently estimate that Napoleon was probably closer to 5’6” or 5’7” (1.68 or 1.7 meters) than to 5’2”.

    Although the range may seem short by 21st-century standards, it was typical in the 19th century, when most Frenchmen stood between 5’2” and 5’6” (1.58 and 1.68 meters) tall. Napoleon was thus average or taller, no matter the interpretation.


    https://www.britannica.com/story/was-napoleon-short
    Isn't it also due to Bonaparte's relatively average background in Corsica, which gave him the average height for the time - whereas all his generals were dukes and viscounts and, like all well fed aristocracy of the time, about six inches taller than average. So they towered over him, making him APPEAR relatively short
  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,486

    boulay said:

    Interesting on immigration from tonight's Opinium

    58% think net mitigation is too high to 28% who think it is about right or too low

    https://twitter.com/OpiniumResearch/status/1677758571470106827?s=20

    Also

    When we asked about whether the UK needs more or less of specific occupations though, most were net "more":

    Service workers (such as hotel and bar staff): 34% "more" vs. 24% "fewer"

    Healthcare workers: 63% "more" vs. 13% "fewer"

    Teachers and lecturers: 35% "more" vs. 19% "fewer"

    I’m absolutely against mitigation. I’m with the 58% who think it’s too high.
    Does the mitigation include slingback?
    M’you’ll understand if i don’t comment, if I did it would be a croc of shit.
  • solarflaresolarflare Posts: 3,705
    Are we saying that Rishi is experiencing a significant gravitas shortfall?
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368

    Carnyx said:

    DavidL said:

    Carnyx said:

    DavidL said:

    Carnyx said:

    DavidL said:

    HYUFD said:

    DavidL said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scottish subsample klaxon, Opinium edition.

    SNP in danger of finishing third in Scotland behind the Tories.

    Labour 31%

    SNP 31%

    SCons 28%

    I mean it is a subsample so as about as accurate as an American war movie.

    Indeed but if the SNP finished third in Scotland on votes and seats that would be even more humiliating for Yousaf than the next election is likely to be for Rishi.
    100+ seats lost in England and Wales and 2 or 3 gains in Scotland for the Tories? Looks on to me.
    Yes Scotland has a habit of doing the opposite to England recently. 2010 saw Labour hold all its seats but the Tories win a majority in England. 2015 saw a Tory majority in England and the UK but an SNP landslide in Scotland. 2017 saw significant SNP losses to the Tories in Scotland but the Tories losing seats in England and their majority in the UK. 2019 saw the Conservatives win a majority in England and UK wide but lose over half their Scottish seats to the SNP.

    2024 looks no different in terms of the SNP and Tories at least but it does look like Starmer might break the mould by being the first main UK party leader since Blair to win big in England and Scotland
    We have our own elections up here and one of the things that concern me as a Unionist is how disaggregated they have become. A Labour government with a serious chunk of Scottish seats might improve that and I would welcome that, whatever reservations I have about SKS and his shadow cabinet.
    'disaggregated', meaning, please?
    Not being influenced by the same factors, not moving in the same direction, not correlated.
    Thanks. Which, I suppose, is an indication of (a) devolution and (b) more generally a distinct polity.
    Yes, which is why as a Unionist I don't like it. We are having our own conversation up here and it is no longer a UK one. I hope that changes.
    On the other hand, any insistence that all conversations have to be the same across the UK - or the imposition of suich a doctrine - would be a priori unreasonable and inherently very damaging to the concept of a UK.
    If the polls are to be believed labour are heading for a majority in Scotland Wales and England and a very large one overall at that
    Far too early to say. Sunak still has the media onside to big him up and scythe down the hopeless Starmer. I reckon I am still on for my 20 seat Con majority.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,831
    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    dixiedean said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Coreta, 47, a manager from Somerton, called the prime minister “a weak dog”. Ann, 72, from Selby, focused on his small physical stature. “He is a little mouse to look at,” she said. “I hate seeing him alongside other statesmen because he looks so tiny.” Craig, 39, a software tester from Selby, was blunter still: “I’d probably say a dodo for Rishi, because he’s pretty much dead to me like a dodo.”

    Tryl, who acted as the moderator, said: “These were by far the worst set of groups we’ve done on impressions of Rishi Sunak. Whereas previously people have been willing to give him some benefit of the doubt, and usually fell back on the fact that even if he’s out of touch he’s competent and the best person to clear up the mess from Boris Johnson and Liz Truss, things have shifted. The cost of living crisis being compounded with the mortgage crisis has exacerbated Sunak’s personal weaknesses.”


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/dead-like-a-dodo-by-election-voters-are-giving-rishi-sunak-both-barrels-pbz5zpvfb

    I know people don't like bringing up his height but it is an issue for the voters.
    Why?
    Am genuinely curious.
    It's a gravitas issue.

    Gravitas is a bit like pornography, hard to describe but you know it when you see it.

    Being a shortarse is seen as having a lack of gravitas.

    The voters are weird.

    It's a declining trend but in focus you'll occasionally hear a comment against a female politician saying she shouldn't be leader/PM because what if she has to make an important decision at that time of the month.

    Like no male politician has ever made decisions based on their reproductive organs.
    On that basis I suppose the very shortarse Napoleon Bonaparte had no gravitas, despite conquering half of Europe and creating the basis for modern French law
    Bonaparte wasn't a shortarse, it was only inaccurate British media reporting that said he was.

    Though it’s hard to say if and why the British invented the short Napoleon trope, there is some truth in Cruikshank’s representation: Napoleon was probably significantly shorter than his troops.

    Several sources note that his elite guards were taller than most Frenchmen, and thus Napoleon had the appearance of being shorter than he really was. Yet interpretations of Napoleon’s death certificate estimate that his height when he died was between 5’2” and 5’7” (1.58 and 1.7 meters).

    The discrepancy is often explained by the disparity between the 19th-century French inch, which was 2.71 cm, and the current inch measurement, which is 2.54 cm. Sources consequently estimate that Napoleon was probably closer to 5’6” or 5’7” (1.68 or 1.7 meters) than to 5’2”.

    Although the range may seem short by 21st-century standards, it was typical in the 19th century, when most Frenchmen stood between 5’2” and 5’6” (1.58 and 1.68 meters) tall. Napoleon was thus average or taller, no matter the interpretation.


    https://www.britannica.com/story/was-napoleon-short
    Isn't it also due to Bonaparte's relatively average background in Corsica, which gave him the average height for the time - whereas all his generals were dukes and viscounts and, like all well fed aristocracy of the time, about six inches taller than average. So they towered over him, making him APPEAR relatively short
    Also headdress, no? Simple athwartships bicorn hat vs assorted shakos and helmets and so on.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,486

    Are we saying that Rishi is experiencing a significant gravitas shortfall?

    It would be a shame, since he was a junior at school he was the apple of my eye.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,631
    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    dixiedean said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Coreta, 47, a manager from Somerton, called the prime minister “a weak dog”. Ann, 72, from Selby, focused on his small physical stature. “He is a little mouse to look at,” she said. “I hate seeing him alongside other statesmen because he looks so tiny.” Craig, 39, a software tester from Selby, was blunter still: “I’d probably say a dodo for Rishi, because he’s pretty much dead to me like a dodo.”

    Tryl, who acted as the moderator, said: “These were by far the worst set of groups we’ve done on impressions of Rishi Sunak. Whereas previously people have been willing to give him some benefit of the doubt, and usually fell back on the fact that even if he’s out of touch he’s competent and the best person to clear up the mess from Boris Johnson and Liz Truss, things have shifted. The cost of living crisis being compounded with the mortgage crisis has exacerbated Sunak’s personal weaknesses.”


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/dead-like-a-dodo-by-election-voters-are-giving-rishi-sunak-both-barrels-pbz5zpvfb

    I know people don't like bringing up his height but it is an issue for the voters.
    Why?
    Am genuinely curious.
    It's a gravitas issue.

    Gravitas is a bit like pornography, hard to describe but you know it when you see it.

    Being a shortarse is seen as having a lack of gravitas.

    The voters are weird.

    It's a declining trend but in focus you'll occasionally hear a comment against a female politician saying she shouldn't be leader/PM because what if she has to make an important decision at that time of the month.

    Like no male politician has ever made decisions based on their reproductive organs.
    On that basis I suppose the very shortarse Napoleon Bonaparte had no gravitas, despite conquering half of Europe and creating the basis for modern French law
    Bonaparte wasn't a shortarse, it was only inaccurate British media reporting that said he was.

    Though it’s hard to say if and why the British invented the short Napoleon trope, there is some truth in Cruikshank’s representation: Napoleon was probably significantly shorter than his troops.

    Several sources note that his elite guards were taller than most Frenchmen, and thus Napoleon had the appearance of being shorter than he really was. Yet interpretations of Napoleon’s death certificate estimate that his height when he died was between 5’2” and 5’7” (1.58 and 1.7 meters).

    The discrepancy is often explained by the disparity between the 19th-century French inch, which was 2.71 cm, and the current inch measurement, which is 2.54 cm. Sources consequently estimate that Napoleon was probably closer to 5’6” or 5’7” (1.68 or 1.7 meters) than to 5’2”.

    Although the range may seem short by 21st-century standards, it was typical in the 19th century, when most Frenchmen stood between 5’2” and 5’6” (1.58 and 1.68 meters) tall. Napoleon was thus average or taller, no matter the interpretation.


    https://www.britannica.com/story/was-napoleon-short
    Isn't it also due to Bonaparte's relatively average background in Corsica, which gave him the average height for the time - whereas all his generals were dukes and viscounts and, like all well fed aristocracy of the time, about six inches taller than average. So they towered over him, making him APPEAR relatively short
    Oui.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    edited July 2023
    Honestly, that Just Stop Oil stunt at Osborne's wedding. It is beyond cringe. And the smirking lady of about 60 who did it. Jesus

    Also, for a second the just-married couple must have been terrified they were being attacked, with acid or whatever

    The radical Green lobby needs to rid itself of these effete middle class twats who come up with these stunts. A friend of mine joined XR and she said the meetings were mortifying. They were all clueless, trust fund bourgeois fuckwits with too much time, or old rich lefties with no brains. She quit in despair

  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,956
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Just Stop Oil with some orange confetti for just-married George Osborne
    https://twitter.com/i/status/1677745464903454722

    These people really piss me off.
    Osborne and his wife? Or the protestors?
    Seriously? The "protester" should be locked up for being an arsehole.
    In that case we'd have the most crowded prisons in Western Europe.
    Oh, we already do.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070

    dixiedean said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Coreta, 47, a manager from Somerton, called the prime minister “a weak dog”. Ann, 72, from Selby, focused on his small physical stature. “He is a little mouse to look at,” she said. “I hate seeing him alongside other statesmen because he looks so tiny.” Craig, 39, a software tester from Selby, was blunter still: “I’d probably say a dodo for Rishi, because he’s pretty much dead to me like a dodo.”

    Tryl, who acted as the moderator, said: “These were by far the worst set of groups we’ve done on impressions of Rishi Sunak. Whereas previously people have been willing to give him some benefit of the doubt, and usually fell back on the fact that even if he’s out of touch he’s competent and the best person to clear up the mess from Boris Johnson and Liz Truss, things have shifted. The cost of living crisis being compounded with the mortgage crisis has exacerbated Sunak’s personal weaknesses.”


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/dead-like-a-dodo-by-election-voters-are-giving-rishi-sunak-both-barrels-pbz5zpvfb

    I know people don't like bringing up his height but it is an issue for the voters.
    Why?
    Am genuinely curious.
    It's a gravitas issue.

    Gravitas is a bit like pornography, hard to describe but you know it when you see it.

    Being a shortarse is seen as having a lack of gravitas.

    The voters are weird.

    It's a declining trend but in focus you'll occasionally hear a comment against a female politician saying she shouldn't be leader/PM because what if she has to make an important decision at that time of the month.

    Like no male politician has ever made decisions based on their reproductive organs.
    Zelensky is also a shortarse, but it's not troubled him.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,033
    edited July 2023

    Carnyx said:

    DavidL said:

    Carnyx said:

    DavidL said:

    Carnyx said:

    DavidL said:

    HYUFD said:

    DavidL said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scottish subsample klaxon, Opinium edition.

    SNP in danger of finishing third in Scotland behind the Tories.

    Labour 31%

    SNP 31%

    SCons 28%

    I mean it is a subsample so as about as accurate as an American war movie.

    Indeed but if the SNP finished third in Scotland on votes and seats that would be even more humiliating for Yousaf than the next election is likely to be for Rishi.
    100+ seats lost in England and Wales and 2 or 3 gains in Scotland for the Tories? Looks on to me.
    Yes Scotland has a habit of doing the opposite to England recently. 2010 saw Labour hold all its seats but the Tories win a majority in England. 2015 saw a Tory majority in England and the UK but an SNP landslide in Scotland. 2017 saw significant SNP losses to the Tories in Scotland but the Tories losing seats in England and their majority in the UK. 2019 saw the Conservatives win a majority in England and UK wide but lose over half their Scottish seats to the SNP.

    2024 looks no different in terms of the SNP and Tories at least but it does look like Starmer might break the mould by being the first main UK party leader since Blair to win big in England and Scotland
    We have our own elections up here and one of the things that concern me as a Unionist is how disaggregated they have become. A Labour government with a serious chunk of Scottish seats might improve that and I would welcome that, whatever reservations I have about SKS and his shadow cabinet.
    'disaggregated', meaning, please?
    Not being influenced by the same factors, not moving in the same direction, not correlated.
    Thanks. Which, I suppose, is an indication of (a) devolution and (b) more generally a distinct polity.
    Yes, which is why as a Unionist I don't like it. We are having our own conversation up here and it is no longer a UK one. I hope that changes.
    On the other hand, any insistence that all conversations have to be the same across the UK - or the imposition of suich a doctrine - would be a priori unreasonable and inherently very damaging to the concept of a UK.
    If the polls are to be believed labour are heading for a majority in Scotland Wales and England and a very large one overall at that
    Far too early to say. Sunak still has the media onside to big him up and scythe down the hopeless Starmer. I reckon I am still on for my 20 seat Con majority.
    It is reported that here in North Wales objectors to the blanket 20mph rule are tampering with the signs with one side 30 and the other side 20 and saying take your choice !!!

    20mph sign vandals face police action for creating 'take-your-pick' speed limits

    https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/20mph-sign-vandals-face-police-27281518#ICID=Android_DailyPostNewsApp_AppShare
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,663
    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    dixiedean said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Coreta, 47, a manager from Somerton, called the prime minister “a weak dog”. Ann, 72, from Selby, focused on his small physical stature. “He is a little mouse to look at,” she said. “I hate seeing him alongside other statesmen because he looks so tiny.” Craig, 39, a software tester from Selby, was blunter still: “I’d probably say a dodo for Rishi, because he’s pretty much dead to me like a dodo.”

    Tryl, who acted as the moderator, said: “These were by far the worst set of groups we’ve done on impressions of Rishi Sunak. Whereas previously people have been willing to give him some benefit of the doubt, and usually fell back on the fact that even if he’s out of touch he’s competent and the best person to clear up the mess from Boris Johnson and Liz Truss, things have shifted. The cost of living crisis being compounded with the mortgage crisis has exacerbated Sunak’s personal weaknesses.”


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/dead-like-a-dodo-by-election-voters-are-giving-rishi-sunak-both-barrels-pbz5zpvfb

    I know people don't like bringing up his height but it is an issue for the voters.
    Why?
    Am genuinely curious.
    It's a gravitas issue.

    Gravitas is a bit like pornography, hard to describe but you know it when you see it.

    Being a shortarse is seen as having a lack of gravitas.

    The voters are weird.

    It's a declining trend but in focus you'll occasionally hear a comment against a female politician saying she shouldn't be leader/PM because what if she has to make an important decision at that time of the month.

    Like no male politician has ever made decisions based on their reproductive organs.
    On that basis I suppose the very shortarse Napoleon Bonaparte had no gravitas, despite conquering half of Europe and creating the basis for modern French law
    Bonaparte wasn't a shortarse, it was only inaccurate British media reporting that said he was.

    Though it’s hard to say if and why the British invented the short Napoleon trope, there is some truth in Cruikshank’s representation: Napoleon was probably significantly shorter than his troops.

    Several sources note that his elite guards were taller than most Frenchmen, and thus Napoleon had the appearance of being shorter than he really was. Yet interpretations of Napoleon’s death certificate estimate that his height when he died was between 5’2” and 5’7” (1.58 and 1.7 meters).

    The discrepancy is often explained by the disparity between the 19th-century French inch, which was 2.71 cm, and the current inch measurement, which is 2.54 cm. Sources consequently estimate that Napoleon was probably closer to 5’6” or 5’7” (1.68 or 1.7 meters) than to 5’2”.

    Although the range may seem short by 21st-century standards, it was typical in the 19th century, when most Frenchmen stood between 5’2” and 5’6” (1.58 and 1.68 meters) tall. Napoleon was thus average or taller, no matter the interpretation.


    https://www.britannica.com/story/was-napoleon-short
    Isn't it also due to Bonaparte's relatively average background in Corsica, which gave him the average height for the time - whereas all his generals were dukes and viscounts and, like all well fed aristocracy of the time, about six inches taller than average. So they towered over him, making him APPEAR relatively short
    Gillray's to blame.

    image
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    Nigelb said:

    Zelensky is also a shortarse, but it's not troubled him.

    Zelensky is a badass. Rishi is not...
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070

    Are we saying that Rishi is experiencing a significant gravitas shortfall?

    Little Rascal.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,486
    edited July 2023

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    dixiedean said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Coreta, 47, a manager from Somerton, called the prime minister “a weak dog”. Ann, 72, from Selby, focused on his small physical stature. “He is a little mouse to look at,” she said. “I hate seeing him alongside other statesmen because he looks so tiny.” Craig, 39, a software tester from Selby, was blunter still: “I’d probably say a dodo for Rishi, because he’s pretty much dead to me like a dodo.”

    Tryl, who acted as the moderator, said: “These were by far the worst set of groups we’ve done on impressions of Rishi Sunak. Whereas previously people have been willing to give him some benefit of the doubt, and usually fell back on the fact that even if he’s out of touch he’s competent and the best person to clear up the mess from Boris Johnson and Liz Truss, things have shifted. The cost of living crisis being compounded with the mortgage crisis has exacerbated Sunak’s personal weaknesses.”


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/dead-like-a-dodo-by-election-voters-are-giving-rishi-sunak-both-barrels-pbz5zpvfb

    I know people don't like bringing up his height but it is an issue for the voters.
    Why?
    Am genuinely curious.
    It's a gravitas issue.

    Gravitas is a bit like pornography, hard to describe but you know it when you see it.

    Being a shortarse is seen as having a lack of gravitas.

    The voters are weird.

    It's a declining trend but in focus you'll occasionally hear a comment against a female politician saying she shouldn't be leader/PM because what if she has to make an important decision at that time of the month.

    Like no male politician has ever made decisions based on their reproductive organs.
    On that basis I suppose the very shortarse Napoleon Bonaparte had no gravitas, despite conquering half of Europe and creating the basis for modern French law
    Bonaparte wasn't a shortarse, it was only inaccurate British media reporting that said he was.

    Though it’s hard to say if and why the British invented the short Napoleon trope, there is some truth in Cruikshank’s representation: Napoleon was probably significantly shorter than his troops.

    Several sources note that his elite guards were taller than most Frenchmen, and thus Napoleon had the appearance of being shorter than he really was. Yet interpretations of Napoleon’s death certificate estimate that his height when he died was between 5’2” and 5’7” (1.58 and 1.7 meters).

    The discrepancy is often explained by the disparity between the 19th-century French inch, which was 2.71 cm, and the current inch measurement, which is 2.54 cm. Sources consequently estimate that Napoleon was probably closer to 5’6” or 5’7” (1.68 or 1.7 meters) than to 5’2”.

    Although the range may seem short by 21st-century standards, it was typical in the 19th century, when most Frenchmen stood between 5’2” and 5’6” (1.58 and 1.68 meters) tall. Napoleon was thus average or taller, no matter the interpretation.


    https://www.britannica.com/story/was-napoleon-short
    Isn't it also due to Bonaparte's relatively average background in Corsica, which gave him the average height for the time - whereas all his generals were dukes and viscounts and, like all well fed aristocracy of the time, about six inches taller than average. So they towered over him, making him APPEAR relatively short
    Oui.
    I second that, oui oui. I might be taking the piss though.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,496
    Carnyx said:

    DavidL said:

    HYUFD said:

    DavidL said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scottish subsample klaxon, Opinium edition.

    SNP in danger of finishing third in Scotland behind the Tories.

    Labour 31%

    SNP 31%

    SCons 28%

    I mean it is a subsample so as about as accurate as an American war movie.

    Indeed but if the SNP finished third in Scotland on votes and seats that would be even more humiliating for Yousaf than the next election is likely to be for Rishi.
    100+ seats lost in England and Wales and 2 or 3 gains in Scotland for the Tories? Looks on to me.
    Yes Scotland has a habit of doing the opposite to England recently. 2010 saw Labour hold all its seats but the Tories win a majority in England. 2015 saw a Tory majority in England and the UK but an SNP landslide in Scotland. 2017 saw significant SNP losses to the Tories in Scotland but the Tories losing seats in England and their majority in the UK. 2019 saw the Conservatives win a majority in England and UK wide but lose over half their Scottish seats to the SNP.

    2024 looks no different in terms of the SNP and Tories at least but it does look like Starmer might break the mould by being the first main UK party leader since Blair to win big in England and Scotland
    We have our own elections up here and one of the things that concern me as a Unionist is how disaggregated they have become. A Labour government with a serious chunk of Scottish seats might improve that and I would welcome that, whatever reservations I have about SKS and his shadow cabinet.
    'disaggregated', meaning, please?
    To disaggregate is to remove the particulate matter comprising small rock or stone, such as gravel. This is a major problem within Unionism nationwide. Sir K will pledge that a Labour government will ensure that Scotland never runs out of stone matter. This is one he can fulfill at no cost, though on current performance I wouldn't trust the SNP with that pledge.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368
    Nigelb said:

    dixiedean said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Coreta, 47, a manager from Somerton, called the prime minister “a weak dog”. Ann, 72, from Selby, focused on his small physical stature. “He is a little mouse to look at,” she said. “I hate seeing him alongside other statesmen because he looks so tiny.” Craig, 39, a software tester from Selby, was blunter still: “I’d probably say a dodo for Rishi, because he’s pretty much dead to me like a dodo.”

    Tryl, who acted as the moderator, said: “These were by far the worst set of groups we’ve done on impressions of Rishi Sunak. Whereas previously people have been willing to give him some benefit of the doubt, and usually fell back on the fact that even if he’s out of touch he’s competent and the best person to clear up the mess from Boris Johnson and Liz Truss, things have shifted. The cost of living crisis being compounded with the mortgage crisis has exacerbated Sunak’s personal weaknesses.”


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/dead-like-a-dodo-by-election-voters-are-giving-rishi-sunak-both-barrels-pbz5zpvfb

    I know people don't like bringing up his height but it is an issue for the voters.
    Why?
    Am genuinely curious.
    It's a gravitas issue.

    Gravitas is a bit like pornography, hard to describe but you know it when you see it.

    Being a shortarse is seen as having a lack of gravitas.

    The voters are weird.

    It's a declining trend but in focus you'll occasionally hear a comment against a female politician saying she shouldn't be leader/PM because what if she has to make an important decision at that time of the month.

    Like no male politician has ever made decisions based on their reproductive organs.
    Zelensky is also a shortarse, but it's not troubled him.
    Starmer is also diminutive at 5ft.8 and two thirds. Compare this to the statuesque Boris Johnson at a whopping 5ft 8 and three quarters.
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 14,324
    Scott_xP said:

    Nigelb said:

    Zelensky is also a shortarse, but it's not troubled him.

    Zelensky is a badass. Rishi is not...
    Perhaps Rishi has a career in stand-up comedy ahead of him when he finishes his stint as PM.

    Incidentally, Mad Vlad is a shortarse too, and goes to great lengths to disguise this.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    The orange confetti woman is an utter arsehole.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277

    Scott_xP said:

    Nigelb said:

    Zelensky is also a shortarse, but it's not troubled him.

    Zelensky is a badass. Rishi is not...
    Perhaps Rishi has a career in stand-up comedy ahead of him when he finishes his stint as PM.

    Incidentally, Mad Vlad is a shortarse too, and goes to great lengths to disguise this.
    Winston Churchill was five foot six. Exactly the same as Sunak

    Yet somehow Churchill projected gravitas and stature and charisma, Sunak does, er, not
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083

    HYUFD said:

    dixiedean said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Coreta, 47, a manager from Somerton, called the prime minister “a weak dog”. Ann, 72, from Selby, focused on his small physical stature. “He is a little mouse to look at,” she said. “I hate seeing him alongside other statesmen because he looks so tiny.” Craig, 39, a software tester from Selby, was blunter still: “I’d probably say a dodo for Rishi, because he’s pretty much dead to me like a dodo.”

    Tryl, who acted as the moderator, said: “These were by far the worst set of groups we’ve done on impressions of Rishi Sunak. Whereas previously people have been willing to give him some benefit of the doubt, and usually fell back on the fact that even if he’s out of touch he’s competent and the best person to clear up the mess from Boris Johnson and Liz Truss, things have shifted. The cost of living crisis being compounded with the mortgage crisis has exacerbated Sunak’s personal weaknesses.”


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/dead-like-a-dodo-by-election-voters-are-giving-rishi-sunak-both-barrels-pbz5zpvfb

    I know people don't like bringing up his height but it is an issue for the voters.
    Why?
    Am genuinely curious.
    It's a gravitas issue.

    Gravitas is a bit like pornography, hard to describe but you know it when you see it.

    Being a shortarse is seen as having a lack of gravitas.

    The voters are weird.

    It's a declining trend but in focus you'll occasionally hear a comment against a female politician saying she shouldn't be leader/PM because what if she has to make an important decision at that time of the month.

    Like no male politician has ever made decisions based on their reproductive organs.
    On that basis I suppose the very shortarse Napoleon Bonaparte had no gravitas, despite conquering half of Europe and creating the basis for modern French law
    Bonaparte wasn't a shortarse, it was only inaccurate British media reporting that said he was.

    Though it’s hard to say if and why the British invented the short Napoleon trope, there is some truth in Cruikshank’s representation: Napoleon was probably significantly shorter than his troops.

    Several sources note that his elite guards were taller than most Frenchmen, and thus Napoleon had the appearance of being shorter than he really was. Yet interpretations of Napoleon’s death certificate estimate that his height when he died was between 5’2” and 5’7” (1.58 and 1.7 meters).

    The discrepancy is often explained by the disparity between the 19th-century French inch, which was 2.71 cm, and the current inch measurement, which is 2.54 cm. Sources consequently estimate that Napoleon was probably closer to 5’6” or 5’7” (1.68 or 1.7 meters) than to 5’2”.

    Although the range may seem short by 21st-century standards, it was typical in the 19th century, when most Frenchmen stood between 5’2” and 5’6” (1.58 and 1.68 meters) tall. Napoleon was thus average or taller, no matter the interpretation.


    https://www.britannica.com/story/was-napoleon-short
    People must have been terrified by Edward IV, who was 6ft 4 in the 15th century.

    It also reminds me of one of my favourite silly sci-fi stories, which involved transplanted romans from Pompeii, not being told they had been moved into the 20th century. Modern humans dressed as romans and spoke latin, but almost all were notably taller than average, and one thing that made the locals twig something was up was the carrots were weird and the chickens were really really big compared to what they were used to.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070

    Nobody would care about Rishi’s stature if he wasn’t also shite.

    Yes. Zero credibility.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,663
    algarkirk said:

    Andy_JS said:

    pigeon said:

    HYUFD said:

    A better poll for the Conservatives, but it comes to something when 28% is better:

    🚨 Latest poll for @ObserverUK Labour lead at 15 points.
    Labour: 43% (-1)
    Conservatives: 28% (+3)
    Lib Dems: 9% (n/c)
    SNP: 3% (n/c)
    Green: 6% (-1)
    Reform UK: 8% (+1)
    (Changes are from a poll released in the Observer last week)


    https://twitter.com/OpiniumResearch/status/1677758557029105664

    And with 8% RefUK vote to squeeze too
    Quite. There's no way on God's Earth that RefUK are going to poll 8% in a General Election, or anywhere remotely close. Most of that lot are pissed off Tory supporters who have a tantrum when talking to pollsters, but will traipse back home again when the Government of the country is at stake.
    I think they could get a similar share to UKIP in 2015 which was 12.9%.

    Why are you so convinced they won't get anything like 8%?
    In the actual world no-one has heard of Reform party or whatever it's called.

    Polling is pretty variable, and obviously the Tories are, justly, in some sort of terminal trouble.

    For trying to predict the actual result in 2024 at the moment I would factor in these things as things stand:

    1) There aren't going to be huge votes that make much difference for parties other than C, LD, Lab and SNP.
    2) Sir K is not Blair; balanced by the fact that Rishi is not Major.
    3) In 1997 the actual GE vote was, in round figures: Lab 43. Con 31
    4) I think the 2024 GE vote will be not far from the 1997 figures, within about 3 percent points (Lab 40-46, Con 28-34) though geographically differently distributed, and turnout low
    5) Tactical voting won't help the Tories
    This is spot on. Turn-out will be low because a lot of natural Tories will stay away, too pissed-off with the state of the government to vote for them but too loyal to vote for someone else.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    Leon said:

    Yet somehow Churchill projected gravitas and stature and charisma, Sunak does, er, not

    Churchill is famous for "Action this day!"

    Rishi is famous for inaction, every day...
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083

    .

    DavidL said:

    Just Stop Oil with some orange confetti for just-married George Osborne
    https://twitter.com/i/status/1677745464903454722

    These people really piss me off.
    I've got no time for the bloke, and broadly agree with JSO's aims, but that is bang out of order. It's petty and mean spirited.
    They need to pick their moments. It's irritating, but I get doing it at high profile sporting events for example. Some ex-politico's wedding? It's just smug preening, and whilst getting some coverage won't be as effective either.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083

    Nigelb said:

    dixiedean said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Coreta, 47, a manager from Somerton, called the prime minister “a weak dog”. Ann, 72, from Selby, focused on his small physical stature. “He is a little mouse to look at,” she said. “I hate seeing him alongside other statesmen because he looks so tiny.” Craig, 39, a software tester from Selby, was blunter still: “I’d probably say a dodo for Rishi, because he’s pretty much dead to me like a dodo.”

    Tryl, who acted as the moderator, said: “These were by far the worst set of groups we’ve done on impressions of Rishi Sunak. Whereas previously people have been willing to give him some benefit of the doubt, and usually fell back on the fact that even if he’s out of touch he’s competent and the best person to clear up the mess from Boris Johnson and Liz Truss, things have shifted. The cost of living crisis being compounded with the mortgage crisis has exacerbated Sunak’s personal weaknesses.”


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/dead-like-a-dodo-by-election-voters-are-giving-rishi-sunak-both-barrels-pbz5zpvfb

    I know people don't like bringing up his height but it is an issue for the voters.
    Why?
    Am genuinely curious.
    It's a gravitas issue.

    Gravitas is a bit like pornography, hard to describe but you know it when you see it.

    Being a shortarse is seen as having a lack of gravitas.

    The voters are weird.

    It's a declining trend but in focus you'll occasionally hear a comment against a female politician saying she shouldn't be leader/PM because what if she has to make an important decision at that time of the month.

    Like no male politician has ever made decisions based on their reproductive organs.
    Zelensky is also a shortarse, but it's not troubled him.
    Starmer is also diminutive at 5ft.8 and two thirds. Compare this to the statuesque Boris Johnson at a whopping 5ft 8 and three quarters.
    Putin is 5ft 7 - no Peter the Great, he.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    dixiedean said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Coreta, 47, a manager from Somerton, called the prime minister “a weak dog”. Ann, 72, from Selby, focused on his small physical stature. “He is a little mouse to look at,” she said. “I hate seeing him alongside other statesmen because he looks so tiny.” Craig, 39, a software tester from Selby, was blunter still: “I’d probably say a dodo for Rishi, because he’s pretty much dead to me like a dodo.”

    Tryl, who acted as the moderator, said: “These were by far the worst set of groups we’ve done on impressions of Rishi Sunak. Whereas previously people have been willing to give him some benefit of the doubt, and usually fell back on the fact that even if he’s out of touch he’s competent and the best person to clear up the mess from Boris Johnson and Liz Truss, things have shifted. The cost of living crisis being compounded with the mortgage crisis has exacerbated Sunak’s personal weaknesses.”


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/dead-like-a-dodo-by-election-voters-are-giving-rishi-sunak-both-barrels-pbz5zpvfb

    I know people don't like bringing up his height but it is an issue for the voters.
    Why?
    Am genuinely curious.
    It's a gravitas issue.

    Gravitas is a bit like pornography, hard to describe but you know it when you see it.

    Being a shortarse is seen as having a lack of gravitas.

    The voters are weird.

    It's a declining trend but in focus you'll occasionally hear a comment against a female politician saying she shouldn't be leader/PM because what if she has to make an important decision at that time of the month.

    Like no male politician has ever made decisions based on their reproductive organs.
    On that basis I suppose the very shortarse Napoleon Bonaparte had no gravitas, despite conquering half of Europe and creating the basis for modern French law
    Bonaparte wasn't a shortarse, it was only inaccurate British media reporting that said he was.

    Though it’s hard to say if and why the British invented the short Napoleon trope, there is some truth in Cruikshank’s representation: Napoleon was probably significantly shorter than his troops.

    Several sources note that his elite guards were taller than most Frenchmen, and thus Napoleon had the appearance of being shorter than he really was. Yet interpretations of Napoleon’s death certificate estimate that his height when he died was between 5’2” and 5’7” (1.58 and 1.7 meters).

    The discrepancy is often explained by the disparity between the 19th-century French inch, which was 2.71 cm, and the current inch measurement, which is 2.54 cm. Sources consequently estimate that Napoleon was probably closer to 5’6” or 5’7” (1.68 or 1.7 meters) than to 5’2”.

    Although the range may seem short by 21st-century standards, it was typical in the 19th century, when most Frenchmen stood between 5’2” and 5’6” (1.58 and 1.68 meters) tall. Napoleon was thus average or taller, no matter the interpretation.


    https://www.britannica.com/story/was-napoleon-short
    People must have been terrified by Edward IV, who was 6ft 4 in the 15th century.

    It also reminds me of one of my favourite silly sci-fi stories, which involved transplanted romans from Pompeii, not being told they had been moved into the 20th century. Modern humans dressed as romans and spoke latin, but almost all were notably taller than average, and one thing that made the locals twig something was up was the carrots were weird and the chickens were really really big compared to what they were used to.
    Peter the Great must have been especially intimidating: an enormous six foot eight giant, and also the all-powerful Tsar of all the Russias, who, if he was in the mood, would force you to drink a litre of neat vodka in one go for his own amusement, to see if you passed out, or died

    I've seen the famous cup he used for this stunt. It is kept at the summer palace in St Petersburg. Diplomats lived in terror of it

    Which reminds me: a new series of The Great is coming soon. HUZZAH
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,401
    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    dixiedean said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Coreta, 47, a manager from Somerton, called the prime minister “a weak dog”. Ann, 72, from Selby, focused on his small physical stature. “He is a little mouse to look at,” she said. “I hate seeing him alongside other statesmen because he looks so tiny.” Craig, 39, a software tester from Selby, was blunter still: “I’d probably say a dodo for Rishi, because he’s pretty much dead to me like a dodo.”

    Tryl, who acted as the moderator, said: “These were by far the worst set of groups we’ve done on impressions of Rishi Sunak. Whereas previously people have been willing to give him some benefit of the doubt, and usually fell back on the fact that even if he’s out of touch he’s competent and the best person to clear up the mess from Boris Johnson and Liz Truss, things have shifted. The cost of living crisis being compounded with the mortgage crisis has exacerbated Sunak’s personal weaknesses.”


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/dead-like-a-dodo-by-election-voters-are-giving-rishi-sunak-both-barrels-pbz5zpvfb

    I know people don't like bringing up his height but it is an issue for the voters.
    Why?
    Am genuinely curious.
    It's a gravitas issue.

    Gravitas is a bit like pornography, hard to describe but you know it when you see it.

    Being a shortarse is seen as having a lack of gravitas.

    The voters are weird.

    It's a declining trend but in focus you'll occasionally hear a comment against a female politician saying she shouldn't be leader/PM because what if she has to make an important decision at that time of the month.

    Like no male politician has ever made decisions based on their reproductive organs.
    On that basis I suppose the very shortarse Napoleon Bonaparte had no gravitas, despite conquering half of Europe and creating the basis for modern French law
    Bonaparte wasn't a shortarse, it was only inaccurate British media reporting that said he was.

    Though it’s hard to say if and why the British invented the short Napoleon trope, there is some truth in Cruikshank’s representation: Napoleon was probably significantly shorter than his troops.

    Several sources note that his elite guards were taller than most Frenchmen, and thus Napoleon had the appearance of being shorter than he really was. Yet interpretations of Napoleon’s death certificate estimate that his height when he died was between 5’2” and 5’7” (1.58 and 1.7 meters).

    The discrepancy is often explained by the disparity between the 19th-century French inch, which was 2.71 cm, and the current inch measurement, which is 2.54 cm. Sources consequently estimate that Napoleon was probably closer to 5’6” or 5’7” (1.68 or 1.7 meters) than to 5’2”.

    Although the range may seem short by 21st-century standards, it was typical in the 19th century, when most Frenchmen stood between 5’2” and 5’6” (1.58 and 1.68 meters) tall. Napoleon was thus average or taller, no matter the interpretation.


    https://www.britannica.com/story/was-napoleon-short
    Isn't it also due to Bonaparte's relatively average background in Corsica, which gave him the average height for the time - whereas all his generals were dukes and viscounts and, like all well fed aristocracy of the time, about six inches taller than average. So they towered over him, making him APPEAR relatively short
    This really isn't my period, but didn't Bonaparte create a "new nobility"?
    Very much designed to put a stake through the heart of the old nobility?
    So, less likely they had aristocratic genes for generations?
    Or maybe I'm wrong in my thinking?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083
    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    dixiedean said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Coreta, 47, a manager from Somerton, called the prime minister “a weak dog”. Ann, 72, from Selby, focused on his small physical stature. “He is a little mouse to look at,” she said. “I hate seeing him alongside other statesmen because he looks so tiny.” Craig, 39, a software tester from Selby, was blunter still: “I’d probably say a dodo for Rishi, because he’s pretty much dead to me like a dodo.”

    Tryl, who acted as the moderator, said: “These were by far the worst set of groups we’ve done on impressions of Rishi Sunak. Whereas previously people have been willing to give him some benefit of the doubt, and usually fell back on the fact that even if he’s out of touch he’s competent and the best person to clear up the mess from Boris Johnson and Liz Truss, things have shifted. The cost of living crisis being compounded with the mortgage crisis has exacerbated Sunak’s personal weaknesses.”


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/dead-like-a-dodo-by-election-voters-are-giving-rishi-sunak-both-barrels-pbz5zpvfb

    I know people don't like bringing up his height but it is an issue for the voters.
    Why?
    Am genuinely curious.
    It's a gravitas issue.

    Gravitas is a bit like pornography, hard to describe but you know it when you see it.

    Being a shortarse is seen as having a lack of gravitas.

    The voters are weird.

    It's a declining trend but in focus you'll occasionally hear a comment against a female politician saying she shouldn't be leader/PM because what if she has to make an important decision at that time of the month.

    Like no male politician has ever made decisions based on their reproductive organs.
    On that basis I suppose the very shortarse Napoleon Bonaparte had no gravitas, despite conquering half of Europe and creating the basis for modern French law
    Bonaparte wasn't a shortarse, it was only inaccurate British media reporting that said he was.

    Though it’s hard to say if and why the British invented the short Napoleon trope, there is some truth in Cruikshank’s representation: Napoleon was probably significantly shorter than his troops.

    Several sources note that his elite guards were taller than most Frenchmen, and thus Napoleon had the appearance of being shorter than he really was. Yet interpretations of Napoleon’s death certificate estimate that his height when he died was between 5’2” and 5’7” (1.58 and 1.7 meters).

    The discrepancy is often explained by the disparity between the 19th-century French inch, which was 2.71 cm, and the current inch measurement, which is 2.54 cm. Sources consequently estimate that Napoleon was probably closer to 5’6” or 5’7” (1.68 or 1.7 meters) than to 5’2”.

    Although the range may seem short by 21st-century standards, it was typical in the 19th century, when most Frenchmen stood between 5’2” and 5’6” (1.58 and 1.68 meters) tall. Napoleon was thus average or taller, no matter the interpretation.


    https://www.britannica.com/story/was-napoleon-short
    Isn't it also due to Bonaparte's relatively average background in Corsica, which gave him the average height for the time - whereas all his generals were dukes and viscounts and, like all well fed aristocracy of the time, about six inches taller than average. So they towered over him, making him APPEAR relatively short
    Also headdress, no? Simple athwartships bicorn hat vs assorted shakos and helmets and so on.
    I think i'd read like 6 Sharpe novels before I figurued out what a shako was supposed to be. Not my proudest moment.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,401
    Leon said:

    Honestly, that Just Stop Oil stunt at Osborne's wedding. It is beyond cringe. And the smirking lady of about 60 who did it. Jesus

    Also, for a second the just-married couple must have been terrified they were being attacked, with acid or whatever

    The radical Green lobby needs to rid itself of these effete middle class twats who come up with these stunts. A friend of mine joined XR and she said the meetings were mortifying. They were all clueless, trust fund bourgeois fuckwits with too much time, or old rich lefties with no brains. She quit in despair

    What on Earth was she expecting?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083

    algarkirk said:

    Andy_JS said:

    pigeon said:

    HYUFD said:

    A better poll for the Conservatives, but it comes to something when 28% is better:

    🚨 Latest poll for @ObserverUK Labour lead at 15 points.
    Labour: 43% (-1)
    Conservatives: 28% (+3)
    Lib Dems: 9% (n/c)
    SNP: 3% (n/c)
    Green: 6% (-1)
    Reform UK: 8% (+1)
    (Changes are from a poll released in the Observer last week)


    https://twitter.com/OpiniumResearch/status/1677758557029105664

    And with 8% RefUK vote to squeeze too
    Quite. There's no way on God's Earth that RefUK are going to poll 8% in a General Election, or anywhere remotely close. Most of that lot are pissed off Tory supporters who have a tantrum when talking to pollsters, but will traipse back home again when the Government of the country is at stake.
    I think they could get a similar share to UKIP in 2015 which was 12.9%.

    Why are you so convinced they won't get anything like 8%?
    In the actual world no-one has heard of Reform party or whatever it's called.

    Polling is pretty variable, and obviously the Tories are, justly, in some sort of terminal trouble.

    For trying to predict the actual result in 2024 at the moment I would factor in these things as things stand:

    1) There aren't going to be huge votes that make much difference for parties other than C, LD, Lab and SNP.
    2) Sir K is not Blair; balanced by the fact that Rishi is not Major.
    3) In 1997 the actual GE vote was, in round figures: Lab 43. Con 31
    4) I think the 2024 GE vote will be not far from the 1997 figures, within about 3 percent points (Lab 40-46, Con 28-34) though geographically differently distributed, and turnout low
    5) Tactical voting won't help the Tories
    This is spot on. Turn-out will be low because a lot of natural Tories will stay away, too pissed-off with the state of the government to vote for them but too loyal to vote for someone else.
    Agreed. Swathes of the south will not be going anywhere, but can still have an impact.
This discussion has been closed.