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Mortgage payments increasingly becoming a big issue – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,217
edited July 2023 in General
Mortgage payments increasingly becoming a big issue – politicalbetting.com

You may or may not like its politics but the @spectator consistently comes up with some great charts. This one's on mortgage (un)affordability over time. pic.twitter.com/mMQfNBH3Q5

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Comments

  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,393
    edited July 2023
    First! B ut not i hope first to spot the fallacy with the Speccy graph. If a smaller portion of the population can even afford to be a first-time buyer today than in the late 1990s [edit: sorry meant 2000s], then that graph is missing a major factor.

    Edit: for instance, thanks to inheritance or the bank of mum and dad (prop: C & U Party) helping put down a much bigger deposit than in the 2000s.
  • First? Thankfully paid my mortgage off. That's painful.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,393
    And also that graph assumes an 80% mortgage. Not the average of the actual population.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,393
    https://www.which.co.uk/news/article/food-prices-impacting-peoples-mental-and-physical-health-which-finds-acRKv4U1NsWi

    Meanwhile, it's not just mortgages, but food still. Note that contrary to longstanding rightwing myth, a lot of those people quoted are obviously actually cooking proper food - or were.
  • MiklosvarMiklosvar Posts: 1,855
    Carnyx said:

    First! B ut not i hope first to spot the fallacy with the Speccy graph. If a smaller portion of the population can even afford to be a first-time buyer today than in the late 1990s [edit: sorry meant 2000s], then that graph is missing a major factor.

    Edit: for instance, thanks to inheritance or the bank of mum and dad (prop: C & U Party) helping put down a much bigger deposit than in the 2000s.

    There's 410,000 ftb mortgages now vs 270,000 in 2008 and 370,000 in 1990

    https://opendatacommunities.org/slice?dataset=http://opendatacommunities.org/data/housing-market/mortgages/rolling-total&http://opendatacommunities.org/def/ontology/time/refPeriod=http://reference.data.gov.uk/id/quarter/1990-Q1

    https://www.uswitch.com/mortgages/mortgage-statistics/#:~:text=The number of UK first,to almost 410,000 in 2021.

    Sort of the inverse of what you are suggesting
  • TazTaz Posts: 15,049
    I had my first mortgage in June 1988 so feel the pain, I went through the same. So some empathy.

    Still, these things are cyclical, and nowadays far more people are on fixed rates and many are yet to mature.

    So the pain, if it is to come, for many will not be felt for a while.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,393
    edited July 2023
    Miklosvar said:

    Carnyx said:

    First! B ut not i hope first to spot the fallacy with the Speccy graph. If a smaller portion of the population can even afford to be a first-time buyer today than in the late 1990s [edit: sorry meant 2000s], then that graph is missing a major factor.

    Edit: for instance, thanks to inheritance or the bank of mum and dad (prop: C & U Party) helping put down a much bigger deposit than in the 2000s.

    There's 410,000 ftb mortgages now vs 270,000 in 2008 and 370,000 in 1990

    https://opendatacommunities.org/slice?dataset=http://opendatacommunities.org/data/housing-market/mortgages/rolling-total&http://opendatacommunities.org/def/ontology/time/refPeriod=http://reference.data.gov.uk/id/quarter/1990-Q1

    https://www.uswitch.com/mortgages/mortgage-statistics/#:~:text=The number of UK first,to almost 410,000 in 2021.

    Sort of the inverse of what you are suggesting
    That's a time lag effect. From when interest rates were low. New mortgages comprise a major issue, too.
  • MiklosvarMiklosvar Posts: 1,855
    edited July 2023
    Miklosvar said:

    Carnyx said:

    First! B ut not i hope first to spot the fallacy with the Speccy graph. If a smaller portion of the population can even afford to be a first-time buyer today than in the late 1990s [edit: sorry meant 2000s], then that graph is missing a major factor.

    Edit: for instance, thanks to inheritance or the bank of mum and dad (prop: C & U Party) helping put down a much bigger deposit than in the 2000s.

    There's 410,000 ftb mortgages now vs 270,000 in 2008 and 370,000 in 1990

    https://opendatacommunities.org/slice?dataset=http://opendatacommunities.org/data/housing-market/mortgages/rolling-total&http://opendatacommunities.org/def/ontology/time/refPeriod=http://reference.data.gov.uk/id/quarter/1990-Q1

    https://www.uswitch.com/mortgages/mortgage-statistics/#:~:text=The number of UK first,to almost 410,000 in 2021.

    Sort of the inverse of what you are suggesting
    Edit that's wrong the first 2 dates are England present day is uk

    Genuine edit so the most recent figure from the England dataset is 2019 and it's 301,000 vs 370,000 1990 and 270,000 2008. Not enough difference to alter the fundamental shitshowism of the situation.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,302
    Rachel Reeves promising to support buy-to-let landlords was a political and economic mistake.
  • Rachel Reeves promising to support buy-to-let landlords was a political and economic mistake.

    What the hell!? Seriously? Any link to what she said?
  • MiklosvarMiklosvar Posts: 1,855
    Carnyx said:

    And also that graph assumes an 80% mortgage. Not the average of the actual population.

    You realise all data are for ftb mortgages? Which on average are at least 80% ltv
  • We're in the market for a new house as full cash buyers. Everything is overpriced now and the next year is going to see a recalibration.You see identical houses in close proximity to each other with 50 grands worth difference in the asking price. The lag in time from agreeing a sale to completing can see a house worth 10 or more percent less and only motivated sellers, who are willing to accept less, are going to sell. It's bad news for thousands of sellers, but looks like we sold our place at exactly the right time.
  • CatManCatMan Posts: 3,069
    Couple of new polls here, don't know if they've already been posted, sorry

    https://twitter.com/britainelects

    No change in the lead though
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,302

    Rachel Reeves promising to support buy-to-let landlords was a political and economic mistake.

    What the hell!? Seriously? Any link to what she said?
    The Tory mortgage bombshell is causing huge harm to families.

    Now they risk a snowball effect, with buy-to-let properties excluded from the mortgage charter.

    Labour would make sure all mortgages holders are protected - including buy-to-let.


    https://twitter.com/rachelreevesmp/status/1675434079267831808
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,393
    Miklosvar said:

    Carnyx said:

    And also that graph assumes an 80% mortgage. Not the average of the actual population.

    You realise all data are for ftb mortgages? Which on average are at least 80% ltv
    Still doesn't allow for those priced out of the market. Who are also politically important.
  • MiklosvarMiklosvar Posts: 1,855
    Carnyx said:

    Miklosvar said:

    Carnyx said:

    And also that graph assumes an 80% mortgage. Not the average of the actual population.

    You realise all data are for ftb mortgages? Which on average are at least 80% ltv
    Still doesn't allow for those priced out of the market. Who are also politically important.
    Sure. But they are anti tory anyway.
  • PLEASE not how it impacts on or to have a impact on. We have this word 'affect', so 'how it affects' and 'to affect'. These impact constructions are both cumbersome and ugly.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,987
    Yes, Sunak needs to get inflation then rates down to win back mortgage holding swing voters
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,148

    Rachel Reeves promising to support buy-to-let landlords was a political and economic mistake.

    What the hell!? Seriously? Any link to what she said?
    The Tory mortgage bombshell is causing huge harm to families.

    Now they risk a snowball effect, with buy-to-let properties excluded from the mortgage charter.

    Labour would make sure all mortgages holders are protected - including buy-to-let.


    https://twitter.com/rachelreevesmp/status/1675434079267831808
    What the hell.

    Just when I start thinking I might be able to vote Labour next time, they come up with insanity like this.

    Hell no.

    All investments can go down as well as up, and every BTL parasite that can't afford their mortgage is a house freed up for someone to buy to live in, instead of trying to sweat an income from an indentured tenant.
    All that does is slow down price increases for buying property, as the BTL landlords sell.

    At the same time, the rental market supply contracts.

    The actual solution to the property crisis is 8 million more properties.
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 5,352
    Miklosvar said:

    Carnyx said:

    First! B ut not i hope first to spot the fallacy with the Speccy graph. If a smaller portion of the population can even afford to be a first-time buyer today than in the late 1990s [edit: sorry meant 2000s], then that graph is missing a major factor.

    Edit: for instance, thanks to inheritance or the bank of mum and dad (prop: C & U Party) helping put down a much bigger deposit than in the 2000s.

    There's 410,000 ftb mortgages now vs 270,000 in 2008 and 370,000 in 1990

    https://opendatacommunities.org/slice?dataset=http://opendatacommunities.org/data/housing-market/mortgages/rolling-total&http://opendatacommunities.org/def/ontology/time/refPeriod=http://reference.data.gov.uk/id/quarter/1990-Q1

    https://www.uswitch.com/mortgages/mortgage-statistics/#:~:text=The number of UK first,to almost 410,000 in 2021.

    Sort of the inverse of what you are suggesting
    Is the average age of a first time buyer and number of dual incomes relevant to this?

    If ftbs are more established, earning more, byy the time they take the plunge it is relevant to the graph.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,987
    Truss to convene taskforce to tackle slumping global growth - i wish i had her level of self assured confidence :)
    https://twitter.com/benatipsos/status/1675867726689050624?s=20
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,987
    Sunak slashes Starmers lead as preferred PM with Redfield from 7% to 4%.

    34% now prefer Sunak as PM, 38% Starmer
    https://redfieldandwiltonstrategies.com/latest-gb-voting-intention-2-july-2023/
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,955

    PLEASE not how it impacts on or to have a impact on. We have this word 'affect', so 'how it affects' and 'to affect'. These impact constructions are both cumbersome and ugly.

    You sound like my boss. I now just spam "influence" to annoy him.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,975
    HYUFD said:

    Sunak slashes Starmers lead as preferred PM with Redfield from 7% to 4%.

    34% now prefer Sunak as PM, 38% Starmer
    https://redfieldandwiltonstrategies.com/latest-gb-voting-intention-2-july-2023/

    I love how a MOE change is now called slashing.
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 5,352

    HYUFD said:

    Sunak slashes Starmers lead as preferred PM with Redfield from 7% to 4%.

    34% now prefer Sunak as PM, 38% Starmer
    https://redfieldandwiltonstrategies.com/latest-gb-voting-intention-2-july-2023/

    I love how a MOE change is now called slashing.
    Slashing in the wind...
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,955
    Mike is right that this is tricky to evaluate, and I don't think the chart does the trick. It needs to be weighted by all sorts of other stuff: age, size of deposit, other costs like energy, term lengths...
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,987
    Javid says halve the number of MPs and double their salaries.

    "If people want to see your GPs or senior nurses or headteachers or an accountant give up their job to want to come into Parliament they have to take a massive fall in their lifestyle to do it.

    "A lot of people are not willing to do that. So you tend to get in Parliament either really rich people who don't need money and therefore they don't care if their salary is £88,000 or £28,000....
    Or you will get people that were earning sort of £30,000 - £80,000 is a big jump but they might not come with the skills that Parliament needs.

    "If I had my way I would halve the number of MPs and double the salaries. That wouldn't cost the taxpayer a penny and you would get a much higher quality of Parliament - and ministers.”
    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/tory-millionaire-sajid-javid-says-30378243?utm_source=twitter.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=sharebar
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,975
    Ok this did make me laugh.


  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,869
    Taz said:

    I had my first mortgage in June 1988 so feel the pain, I went through the same. So some empathy.

    Still, these things are cyclical, and nowadays far more people are on fixed rates and many are yet to mature.

    So the pain, if it is to come, for many will not be felt for a while.

    I think it's a bit of a myth that these things are cyclical. They are repetitive, but shouldn't be considered inevitable and therefore acceptable.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,393

    Rachel Reeves promising to support buy-to-let landlords was a political and economic mistake.

    What the hell!? Seriously? Any link to what she said?
    The Tory mortgage bombshell is causing huge harm to families.

    Now they risk a snowball effect, with buy-to-let properties excluded from the mortgage charter.

    Labour would make sure all mortgages holders are protected - including buy-to-let.


    https://twitter.com/rachelreevesmp/status/1675434079267831808
    What the hell.

    Just when I start thinking I might be able to vote Labour next time, they come up with insanity like this.

    Hell no.

    All investments can go down as well as up, and every BTL parasite that can't afford their mortgage is a house freed up for someone to buy to live in, instead of trying to sweat an income from an indentured tenant.
    All that does is slow down price increases for buying property, as the BTL landlords sell.

    At the same time, the rental market supply contracts.

    The actual solution to the property crisis is 8 million more properties.
    Also accelerates any property price crash. Not to be desired by Labour aiming at marginal Tories.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,415

    PLEASE not how it impacts on or to have a impact on. We have this word 'affect', so 'how it affects' and 'to affect'. These impact constructions are both cumbersome and ugly.

    24 posts in 8.5 years - are you Geoffrey Boycott?
    @OccasionalOptimist is pedantic and posts rarely. Perfect poster, IMHO... :)
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,869
    HYUFD said:

    Truss to convene taskforce to tackle slumping global growth - i wish i had her level of self assured confidence :)
    https://twitter.com/benatipsos/status/1675867726689050624?s=20

    Good for her. She is doing what she said she would do - trying to make the arguments in favour of economic growth.
  • MiklosvarMiklosvar Posts: 1,855
    Pro_Rata said:

    Miklosvar said:

    Carnyx said:

    First! B ut not i hope first to spot the fallacy with the Speccy graph. If a smaller portion of the population can even afford to be a first-time buyer today than in the late 1990s [edit: sorry meant 2000s], then that graph is missing a major factor.

    Edit: for instance, thanks to inheritance or the bank of mum and dad (prop: C & U Party) helping put down a much bigger deposit than in the 2000s.

    There's 410,000 ftb mortgages now vs 270,000 in 2008 and 370,000 in 1990

    https://opendatacommunities.org/slice?dataset=http://opendatacommunities.org/data/housing-market/mortgages/rolling-total&http://opendatacommunities.org/def/ontology/time/refPeriod=http://reference.data.gov.uk/id/quarter/1990-Q1

    https://www.uswitch.com/mortgages/mortgage-statistics/#:~:text=The number of UK first,to almost 410,000 in 2021.

    Sort of the inverse of what you are suggesting
    Is the average age of a first time buyer and number of dual incomes relevant to this?

    If ftbs are more established, earning more, byy the time they take the plunge it is relevant to the graph.
    Well, relevant how? They are earning more, but paying more for their mortgage, on the reasonable assumption that people buy property as soon as they can reasonably afford to. So that's a wash. More established = older = more likely to have children which makes things worse not better.
  • Rachel Reeves promising to support buy-to-let landlords was a political and economic mistake.

    What the hell!? Seriously? Any link to what she said?
    The Tory mortgage bombshell is causing huge harm to families.

    Now they risk a snowball effect, with buy-to-let properties excluded from the mortgage charter.

    Labour would make sure all mortgages holders are protected - including buy-to-let.


    https://twitter.com/rachelreevesmp/status/1675434079267831808
    What the hell.

    Just when I start thinking I might be able to vote Labour next time, they come up with insanity like this.

    Hell no.

    All investments can go down as well as up, and every BTL parasite that can't afford their mortgage is a house freed up for someone to buy to live in, instead of trying to sweat an income from an indentured tenant.
    All that does is slow down price increases for buying property, as the BTL landlords sell.

    At the same time, the rental market supply contracts.

    The actual solution to the property crisis is 8 million more properties.
    You're not going to have me disagree that the solution is more properties in the long term, but fewer parasites seeking to have other's pay their mortgage for them is a good thing in the short term too.

    That's not to say there should be no private rentals, but in a functioning market economy rentals should be cheaper than mortgages, and are in much of the world. If someone can afford to pay a landlord's mortgage, they can afford to pay their own, and for them to be paying someone else's instead is a market failure that needs addressing.

    People or firms who invest their own money, not their tenant's money, into a property to let is entirely reasonable, but should be getting a return less than a mortgage.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,149
    HYUFD said:

    Javid says halve the number of MPs and double their salaries.

    "If people want to see your GPs or senior nurses or headteachers or an accountant give up their job to want to come into Parliament they have to take a massive fall in their lifestyle to do it.

    "A lot of people are not willing to do that. So you tend to get in Parliament either really rich people who don't need money and therefore they don't care if their salary is £88,000 or £28,000....
    Or you will get people that were earning sort of £30,000 - £80,000 is a big jump but they might not come with the skills that Parliament needs.

    "If I had my way I would halve the number of MPs and double the salaries. That wouldn't cost the taxpayer a penny and you would get a much higher quality of Parliament - and ministers.”
    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/tory-millionaire-sajid-javid-says-30378243?utm_source=twitter.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=sharebar

    No - halve the number of unelected Lords, NOT the elected MPs!
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,149
    HYUFD said:

    Sunak slashes Starmers lead as preferred PM with Redfield from 7% to 4%.

    34% now prefer Sunak as PM, 38% Starmer
    https://redfieldandwiltonstrategies.com/latest-gb-voting-intention-2-july-2023/

    Perhaps HYUFD should rename himself @PerpetualOptimist?
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,149
    CatMan said:

    Couple of new polls here, don't know if they've already been posted, sorry

    https://twitter.com/britainelects

    No change in the lead though

    Need to bloody sign in!
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,149

    PLEASE not how it impacts on or to have a impact on. We have this word 'affect', so 'how it affects' and 'to affect'. These impact constructions are both cumbersome and ugly.

    "Have AN impact on". In English, you see, we have this indefinite article "an" that we use in front of nouns beginning with a vowel.

    HTH!
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,975
    On topic, yeah, coupled with everything else going up, the Tories are more buggered than when Zanzibar took on the UK.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,937
    Are they still whinging about the cricket?

    WTF is RIshi playing at, getting involved?

    He was stumped according to the laws of the game. That's it.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,592

    HYUFD said:

    Javid says halve the number of MPs and double their salaries.

    "If people want to see your GPs or senior nurses or headteachers or an accountant give up their job to want to come into Parliament they have to take a massive fall in their lifestyle to do it.

    "A lot of people are not willing to do that. So you tend to get in Parliament either really rich people who don't need money and therefore they don't care if their salary is £88,000 or £28,000....
    Or you will get people that were earning sort of £30,000 - £80,000 is a big jump but they might not come with the skills that Parliament needs.

    "If I had my way I would halve the number of MPs and double the salaries. That wouldn't cost the taxpayer a penny and you would get a much higher quality of Parliament - and ministers.”
    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/tory-millionaire-sajid-javid-says-30378243?utm_source=twitter.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=sharebar

    No - halve the number of unelected Lords, NOT the elected MPs!
    He's looking at the approach of how do you improve the quality of MPs without increasing costs.

    Personally I would just say we need to pay MPs more because heck I earn more than they do from my spare room...
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,914

    On topic, yeah, coupled with everything else going up, the Tories are more buggered than when Zanzibar took on the UK.

    Have you not bought into "The New Conservatives" narrative?
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,415
    From the "Popbitch" email entitled "Fanny Holster"...

    "...Of all the tributes paid to Silvio Berlusconi this week, the wreath that escortadvisor[dot]com placed outside his villa was probably the one he’d have been most touched by..."
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,869
    Interesting intervention by Lord Howard in favour of Rwanda - he also lists Kenneth Clarke as being in favour.

    https://conservativehome.com/2023/07/03/michael-howard-small-boats-and-the-rwanda-policy-judges-should-not-substitute-their-personal-views-for-those-of-ministers/
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,491
    HYUFD said:

    Javid says halve the number of MPs and double their salaries.

    "If people want to see your GPs or senior nurses or headteachers or an accountant give up their job to want to come into Parliament they have to take a massive fall in their lifestyle to do it.

    "A lot of people are not willing to do that. So you tend to get in Parliament either really rich people who don't need money and therefore they don't care if their salary is £88,000 or £28,000....
    Or you will get people that were earning sort of £30,000 - £80,000 is a big jump but they might not come with the skills that Parliament needs.

    "If I had my way I would halve the number of MPs and double the salaries. That wouldn't cost the taxpayer a penny and you would get a much higher quality of Parliament - and ministers.”
    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/tory-millionaire-sajid-javid-says-30378243?utm_source=twitter.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=sharebar

    Halve the number of seats and you’ll get an even less proportional result from FPTP.

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,987
    edited July 2023

    HYUFD said:

    Javid says halve the number of MPs and double their salaries.

    "If people want to see your GPs or senior nurses or headteachers or an accountant give up their job to want to come into Parliament they have to take a massive fall in their lifestyle to do it.

    "A lot of people are not willing to do that. So you tend to get in Parliament either really rich people who don't need money and therefore they don't care if their salary is £88,000 or £28,000....
    Or you will get people that were earning sort of £30,000 - £80,000 is a big jump but they might not come with the skills that Parliament needs.

    "If I had my way I would halve the number of MPs and double the salaries. That wouldn't cost the taxpayer a penny and you would get a much higher quality of Parliament - and ministers.”
    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/tory-millionaire-sajid-javid-says-30378243?utm_source=twitter.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=sharebar

    No - halve the number of unelected Lords, NOT the elected MPs!
    Being a Lord is only a part time job and they just receive expenses and a decent lunch and dinner when in the Lords.

    Being an MP is a full time job and MPs get the final say on legislation, Lords can only scrutinise legislation and delay non money bills for a year but the Commons will still push it through unamended if a conflict between the 2
  • EPGEPG Posts: 6,653
    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    Javid says halve the number of MPs and double their salaries.

    "If people want to see your GPs or senior nurses or headteachers or an accountant give up their job to want to come into Parliament they have to take a massive fall in their lifestyle to do it.

    "A lot of people are not willing to do that. So you tend to get in Parliament either really rich people who don't need money and therefore they don't care if their salary is £88,000 or £28,000....
    Or you will get people that were earning sort of £30,000 - £80,000 is a big jump but they might not come with the skills that Parliament needs.

    "If I had my way I would halve the number of MPs and double the salaries. That wouldn't cost the taxpayer a penny and you would get a much higher quality of Parliament - and ministers.”
    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/tory-millionaire-sajid-javid-says-30378243?utm_source=twitter.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=sharebar

    No - halve the number of unelected Lords, NOT the elected MPs!
    He's looking at the approach of how do you improve the quality of MPs without increasing costs.

    Personally I would just say we need to pay MPs more because heck I earn more than they do from my spare room...
    In most places they vote for the same party over and over. That means you keep your seat forever unless you dip below the low baselines for loyalty and propriety. Over time, whatever external merits you brought when you got in have no reason to be upheld. This is the fundamental problem and extra pay can't fix it. Term limits would clear out the deadwood at the cost of inflexibility, less democracy, and more inexperienced MPs in other important ways. Primaries would also work but are expensive.
  • eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    Javid says halve the number of MPs and double their salaries.

    "If people want to see your GPs or senior nurses or headteachers or an accountant give up their job to want to come into Parliament they have to take a massive fall in their lifestyle to do it.

    "A lot of people are not willing to do that. So you tend to get in Parliament either really rich people who don't need money and therefore they don't care if their salary is £88,000 or £28,000....
    Or you will get people that were earning sort of £30,000 - £80,000 is a big jump but they might not come with the skills that Parliament needs.

    "If I had my way I would halve the number of MPs and double the salaries. That wouldn't cost the taxpayer a penny and you would get a much higher quality of Parliament - and ministers.”
    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/tory-millionaire-sajid-javid-says-30378243?utm_source=twitter.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=sharebar

    No - halve the number of unelected Lords, NOT the elected MPs!
    He's looking at the approach of how do you improve the quality of MPs without increasing costs.

    Personally I would just say we need to pay MPs more because heck I earn more than they do from my spare room...
    Personally I would say we need to pay MPs less because of supply and demand; there's no shortage of people applying to be MPs at the moment.

    An MPs salary is a big jump in pay for about 97% of the population.

    Based on these ONS figures I'd say about £40k is an appropriate income for MPs.

    image
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,415
    HYUFD said:

    Javid says halve the number of MPs and double their salaries.

    "If people want to see your GPs or senior nurses or headteachers or an accountant give up their job to want to come into Parliament they have to take a massive fall in their lifestyle to do it.

    "A lot of people are not willing to do that. So you tend to get in Parliament either really rich people who don't need money and therefore they don't care if their salary is £88,000 or £28,000....
    Or you will get people that were earning sort of £30,000 - £80,000 is a big jump but they might not come with the skills that Parliament needs.

    "If I had my way I would halve the number of MPs and double the salaries. That wouldn't cost the taxpayer a penny and you would get a much higher quality of Parliament - and ministers.”
    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/tory-millionaire-sajid-javid-says-30378243?utm_source=twitter.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=sharebar

    He's aiming for the wrong constitiuency. People earning over 80K are not necessarily the best people, as they may be overspecialised. You should be looking at the £20-£60K bracket: smart enough to understand the issues and precarious enough to understand the stakes.

  • PLEASE not how it impacts on or to have a impact on. We have this word 'affect', so 'how it affects' and 'to affect'. These impact constructions are both cumbersome and ugly.

    24 posts in 8.5 years - are you Geoffrey Boycott?
    Not Geoffrey Boycott. I post rarely because nobody has found anything I've said interesting before in the last 8.5 years.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,491
    EPG said:

    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    Javid says halve the number of MPs and double their salaries.

    "If people want to see your GPs or senior nurses or headteachers or an accountant give up their job to want to come into Parliament they have to take a massive fall in their lifestyle to do it.

    "A lot of people are not willing to do that. So you tend to get in Parliament either really rich people who don't need money and therefore they don't care if their salary is £88,000 or £28,000....
    Or you will get people that were earning sort of £30,000 - £80,000 is a big jump but they might not come with the skills that Parliament needs.

    "If I had my way I would halve the number of MPs and double the salaries. That wouldn't cost the taxpayer a penny and you would get a much higher quality of Parliament - and ministers.”
    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/tory-millionaire-sajid-javid-says-30378243?utm_source=twitter.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=sharebar

    No - halve the number of unelected Lords, NOT the elected MPs!
    He's looking at the approach of how do you improve the quality of MPs without increasing costs.

    Personally I would just say we need to pay MPs more because heck I earn more than they do from my spare room...
    In most places they vote for the same party over and over. That means you keep your seat forever unless you dip below the low baselines for loyalty and propriety. Over time, whatever external merits you brought when you got in have no reason to be upheld. This is the fundamental problem and extra pay can't fix it. Term limits would clear out the deadwood at the cost of inflexibility, less democracy, and more inexperienced MPs in other important ways. Primaries would also work but are expensive.
    Use single transferable vote or some other ordinal voting method within multi-member constituencies. Then you’ll get some degree of intra-party competition, so even if people are voting for the same party over and over, they may vote for different candidates.
  • PLEASE not how it impacts on or to have a impact on. We have this word 'affect', so 'how it affects' and 'to affect'. These impact constructions are both cumbersome and ugly.

    "Have AN impact on". In English, you see, we have this indefinite article "an" that we use in front of nouns beginning with a vowel.

    HTH!
    Mea culpa
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,972
    Entirely off-topic but as we come into the summer I'm taking a month off YouTube. Not by disappearing, I've just recorded and scheduled enough content to keep going into August without intervention.

    What will be interesting will be if the evil algorithm punishes me for changing my video release schedule. Have done 2 or sometimes 3 videos a week for 9 months, think the quality has suffered on some recent videos so hoping that fewer bigger better will apply.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,888

    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    Javid says halve the number of MPs and double their salaries.

    "If people want to see your GPs or senior nurses or headteachers or an accountant give up their job to want to come into Parliament they have to take a massive fall in their lifestyle to do it.

    "A lot of people are not willing to do that. So you tend to get in Parliament either really rich people who don't need money and therefore they don't care if their salary is £88,000 or £28,000....
    Or you will get people that were earning sort of £30,000 - £80,000 is a big jump but they might not come with the skills that Parliament needs.

    "If I had my way I would halve the number of MPs and double the salaries. That wouldn't cost the taxpayer a penny and you would get a much higher quality of Parliament - and ministers.”
    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/tory-millionaire-sajid-javid-says-30378243?utm_source=twitter.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=sharebar

    No - halve the number of unelected Lords, NOT the elected MPs!
    He's looking at the approach of how do you improve the quality of MPs without increasing costs.

    Personally I would just say we need to pay MPs more because heck I earn more than they do from my spare room...
    Personally I would say we need to pay MPs less because of supply and demand; there's no shortage of people applying to be MPs at the moment.

    An MPs salary is a big jump in pay for about 97% of the population.

    Based on these ONS figures I'd say about £40k is an appropriate income for MPs.

    image
    The problem with MPs pay is that what is needed is people who are vocational servants of the nation, highly intelligent and able to scrutinise legislation, morally magnificent and exemplary, both independent minded and loyal to their party, good at getting to know 60,000 people and good on the telly.

    This cannot be bought; and you are as likely to get the right mix by paying nothing at all as by paying £xtrillion.
  • EPGEPG Posts: 6,653

    Rachel Reeves promising to support buy-to-let landlords was a political and economic mistake.

    What the hell!? Seriously? Any link to what she said?
    The Tory mortgage bombshell is causing huge harm to families.

    Now they risk a snowball effect, with buy-to-let properties excluded from the mortgage charter.

    Labour would make sure all mortgages holders are protected - including buy-to-let.


    https://twitter.com/rachelreevesmp/status/1675434079267831808
    What the hell.

    Just when I start thinking I might be able to vote Labour next time, they come up with insanity like this.

    Hell no.

    All investments can go down as well as up, and every BTL parasite that can't afford their mortgage is a house freed up for someone to buy to live in, instead of trying to sweat an income from an indentured tenant.
    All that does is slow down price increases for buying property, as the BTL landlords sell.

    At the same time, the rental market supply contracts.

    The actual solution to the property crisis is 8 million more properties.
    You're not going to have me disagree that the solution is more properties in the long term, but fewer parasites seeking to have other's pay their mortgage for them is a good thing in the short term too.

    That's not to say there should be no private rentals, but in a functioning market economy rentals should be cheaper than mortgages, and are in much of the world. If someone can afford to pay a landlord's mortgage, they can afford to pay their own, and for them to be paying someone else's instead is a market failure that needs addressing.

    People or firms who invest their own money, not their tenant's money, into a property to let is entirely reasonable, but should be getting a return less than a mortgage.
    It's not a market failure if someone who can get a mortgage chooses not to. I don't think all the mid-20s City workers actually want to own properties in inner London long term.
  • EPGEPG Posts: 6,653

    EPG said:

    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    Javid says halve the number of MPs and double their salaries.

    "If people want to see your GPs or senior nurses or headteachers or an accountant give up their job to want to come into Parliament they have to take a massive fall in their lifestyle to do it.

    "A lot of people are not willing to do that. So you tend to get in Parliament either really rich people who don't need money and therefore they don't care if their salary is £88,000 or £28,000....
    Or you will get people that were earning sort of £30,000 - £80,000 is a big jump but they might not come with the skills that Parliament needs.

    "If I had my way I would halve the number of MPs and double the salaries. That wouldn't cost the taxpayer a penny and you would get a much higher quality of Parliament - and ministers.”
    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/tory-millionaire-sajid-javid-says-30378243?utm_source=twitter.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=sharebar

    No - halve the number of unelected Lords, NOT the elected MPs!
    He's looking at the approach of how do you improve the quality of MPs without increasing costs.

    Personally I would just say we need to pay MPs more because heck I earn more than they do from my spare room...
    In most places they vote for the same party over and over. That means you keep your seat forever unless you dip below the low baselines for loyalty and propriety. Over time, whatever external merits you brought when you got in have no reason to be upheld. This is the fundamental problem and extra pay can't fix it. Term limits would clear out the deadwood at the cost of inflexibility, less democracy, and more inexperienced MPs in other important ways. Primaries would also work but are expensive.
    Use single transferable vote or some other ordinal voting method within multi-member constituencies. Then you’ll get some degree of intra-party competition, so even if people are voting for the same party over and over, they may vote for different candidates.
    This is probably the most feasible change. Even so it means a lot more competition for most MPs, so I don't expect it to happen.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,606
    Can we please get back to the cricket?

    I don't mind the occasional foray into politics, or indeed folk dancing, aliens, AI, the fetid ugliness of Scots, and likeminded distractions, but ultimately we are here to talk about the cricket, and we should remember that

    Also, and this will come as a surprise to PB-ers, I was THERE yesterday, at Lord's. Yes
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,149
    boulay said:

    HYUFD said:

    Javid says halve the number of MPs and double their salaries.

    "If people want to see your GPs or senior nurses or headteachers or an accountant give up their job to want to come into Parliament they have to take a massive fall in their lifestyle to do it.

    "A lot of people are not willing to do that. So you tend to get in Parliament either really rich people who don't need money and therefore they don't care if their salary is £88,000 or £28,000....
    Or you will get people that were earning sort of £30,000 - £80,000 is a big jump but they might not come with the skills that Parliament needs.

    "If I had my way I would halve the number of MPs and double the salaries. That wouldn't cost the taxpayer a penny and you would get a much higher quality of Parliament - and ministers.”
    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/tory-millionaire-sajid-javid-says-30378243?utm_source=twitter.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=sharebar

    To help visualise Javid’s plan below we have an image of a current MP on the left and an MP who has been halved on the right.


    :lol: That photo always cracks me up :lol:
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,606
    boulay said:

    HYUFD said:

    Javid says halve the number of MPs and double their salaries.

    "If people want to see your GPs or senior nurses or headteachers or an accountant give up their job to want to come into Parliament they have to take a massive fall in their lifestyle to do it.

    "A lot of people are not willing to do that. So you tend to get in Parliament either really rich people who don't need money and therefore they don't care if their salary is £88,000 or £28,000....
    Or you will get people that were earning sort of £30,000 - £80,000 is a big jump but they might not come with the skills that Parliament needs.

    "If I had my way I would halve the number of MPs and double the salaries. That wouldn't cost the taxpayer a penny and you would get a much higher quality of Parliament - and ministers.”
    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/tory-millionaire-sajid-javid-says-30378243?utm_source=twitter.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=sharebar

    To help visualise Javid’s plan below we have an image of a current MP on the left and an MP who has been halved on the right.


    That photo is going to be immortal, isn't it?

    It is very hard to believe it is real. In future people will claim it was all faked with Stable Diffuson
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,987
    Leon said:

    Can we please get back to the cricket?

    I don't mind the occasional foray into politics, or indeed folk dancing, aliens, AI, the fetid ugliness of Scots, and likeminded distractions, but ultimately we are here to talk about the cricket, and we should remember that

    Also, and this will come as a surprise to PB-ers, I was THERE yesterday, at Lord's. Yes

    Last time I checked this was politicalbetting.com not cricketbetting.com. Even if Rishi apparently thinks the Aussies were bad sports (though even worse were the oiks in the Long Room who booed them!)
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,987
    edited July 2023
    boulay said:

    HYUFD said:

    Javid says halve the number of MPs and double their salaries.

    "If people want to see your GPs or senior nurses or headteachers or an accountant give up their job to want to come into Parliament they have to take a massive fall in their lifestyle to do it.

    "A lot of people are not willing to do that. So you tend to get in Parliament either really rich people who don't need money and therefore they don't care if their salary is £88,000 or £28,000....
    Or you will get people that were earning sort of £30,000 - £80,000 is a big jump but they might not come with the skills that Parliament needs.

    "If I had my way I would halve the number of MPs and double the salaries. That wouldn't cost the taxpayer a penny and you would get a much higher quality of Parliament - and ministers.”
    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/tory-millionaire-sajid-javid-says-30378243?utm_source=twitter.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=sharebar

    'To help visualise Javid’s plan below we have an image of a current MP on the left and an MP who has been halved on the right.

    '
    I should think Sunak is several hundred times richer than Kawczynski however, so is the type of MP who could do it for nothing
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,393
    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    Can we please get back to the cricket?

    I don't mind the occasional foray into politics, or indeed folk dancing, aliens, AI, the fetid ugliness of Scots, and likeminded distractions, but ultimately we are here to talk about the cricket, and we should remember that

    Also, and this will come as a surprise to PB-ers, I was THERE yesterday, at Lord's. Yes

    Last time I checked this was politicalbetting.com not cricketbetting.com. Even if Rishi apparently thinks the Aussies were bad sports (though even worse were the oiks in the Long Room who booed them!)
    You mean, oiks like the members of the Bullingdon Club? Must be highly posh gents if they are in the Long Room.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,987

    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    Javid says halve the number of MPs and double their salaries.

    "If people want to see your GPs or senior nurses or headteachers or an accountant give up their job to want to come into Parliament they have to take a massive fall in their lifestyle to do it.

    "A lot of people are not willing to do that. So you tend to get in Parliament either really rich people who don't need money and therefore they don't care if their salary is £88,000 or £28,000....
    Or you will get people that were earning sort of £30,000 - £80,000 is a big jump but they might not come with the skills that Parliament needs.

    "If I had my way I would halve the number of MPs and double the salaries. That wouldn't cost the taxpayer a penny and you would get a much higher quality of Parliament - and ministers.”
    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/tory-millionaire-sajid-javid-says-30378243?utm_source=twitter.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=sharebar

    No - halve the number of unelected Lords, NOT the elected MPs!
    He's looking at the approach of how do you improve the quality of MPs without increasing costs.

    Personally I would just say we need to pay MPs more because heck I earn more than they do from my spare room...
    Personally I would say we need to pay MPs less because of supply and demand; there's no shortage of people applying to be MPs at the moment.

    An MPs salary is a big jump in pay for about 97% of the population.

    Based on these ONS figures I'd say about £40k is an appropriate income for MPs.

    image
    County Council Cabinet members get more than that, London AMs, Scottish and Welsh Parliament and NI Assembly members get more than that. I currently get more than that as do probably 25%+ of the population
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,149
    edited July 2023
    Leon said:

    Can we please get back to the cricket?

    I don't mind the occasional foray into politics, or indeed folk dancing, aliens, AI, the fetid ugliness of Scots, and likeminded distractions, but ultimately we are here to talk about the cricket, and we should remember that

    Also, and this will come as a surprise to PB-ers, I was THERE yesterday, at Lord's. Yes

    The most utterly tedious, boring, snooze-fest "sport" in the world?

    Cruellest aspect of British rule in South Asia was teaching the forebears of today's Indians, Pakistanis, Bangladeshis and Sri Lankans how to play sodding cricket instead of, say, football.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,415

    HYUFD said:

    Javid says halve the number of MPs and double their salaries.

    "If people want to see your GPs or senior nurses or headteachers or an accountant give up their job to want to come into Parliament they have to take a massive fall in their lifestyle to do it.

    "A lot of people are not willing to do that. So you tend to get in Parliament either really rich people who don't need money and therefore they don't care if their salary is £88,000 or £28,000....
    Or you will get people that were earning sort of £30,000 - £80,000 is a big jump but they might not come with the skills that Parliament needs.

    "If I had my way I would halve the number of MPs and double the salaries. That wouldn't cost the taxpayer a penny and you would get a much higher quality of Parliament - and ministers.”
    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/tory-millionaire-sajid-javid-says-30378243?utm_source=twitter.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=sharebar

    Halve the number of seats and you’ll get an even less proportional result from FPTP.

    Conversely, multiple the number of seats by about 50% and reduce the salaries by a third (1-1/1.5). You'd have about 900 MP's, each earning about £60K and representing about 75,000 people. I think you'd have nicer and more representative people.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,914
    edited July 2023
    In the light of the wicket keeping shenanigans at the weekend, has everyone persused, perhaps England's greatest wicketkeeper Alan Knott's eBay auctions. Lots of Kent and England memorabilia up for sale.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,393

    Leon said:

    Can we please get back to the cricket?

    I don't mind the occasional foray into politics, or indeed folk dancing, aliens, AI, the fetid ugliness of Scots, and likeminded distractions, but ultimately we are here to talk about the cricket, and we should remember that

    Also, and this will come as a surprise to PB-ers, I was THERE yesterday, at Lord's. Yes

    The most utterly tedious, boring, snooze-fest "sport" in the world?

    Cruelest aspect of British rule in South Asia was teaching the forebears of today's Indians, Pakistanis, Bangladeshis and Sri Lankans how to play sodding cricket instead of, say, football.
    A brilliant combination of sumo wrestling (given the nationalistic and religious fervour seen on here of late) and watching the grass grow on the wicket.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,987
    edited July 2023
    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    Can we please get back to the cricket?

    I don't mind the occasional foray into politics, or indeed folk dancing, aliens, AI, the fetid ugliness of Scots, and likeminded distractions, but ultimately we are here to talk about the cricket, and we should remember that

    Also, and this will come as a surprise to PB-ers, I was THERE yesterday, at Lord's. Yes

    Last time I checked this was politicalbetting.com not cricketbetting.com. Even if Rishi apparently thinks the Aussies were bad sports (though even worse were the oiks in the Long Room who booed them!)
    You mean, oiks like the members of the Bullingdon Club? Must be highly posh gents if they are in the Long Room.
    I doubt it, the Bullingdon Club may be almost extinct but I doubt any of their members would boo members of the opposing team.

    You can be rich but not posh, indeed as MCC membership is supposed to be by invite only and they have had to suspend 2 members yesterday, standards seem to have slipped as to who they invite
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,655
    From previous thread...

    I would rate the LDs chances as less than evens, and more like 3-1.

    First: this is mostly not about SNP-LD battles. Edinburgh West is still mostly Edinburgh West. Fife North East gains a bit of Glenrothes (and is technically an SNP seat), but the LDs should be favourites there. Orkney & Shetland is unchanged.

    One LD seat - before the SNP's recent issues - looked to be a real struggle for the LDs to "hold", and that is the new Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross. This gains almost half of Charles Kennedy's old Ross, Skye and Lochaber. According to Electoral Calculus, that seat now has a notional 3,700 SNP majority. Will the LDs "hold" it? Difficult to say.

    Lastly, there's Bearsden and Campsie Fells. This is the successor seat to Jo Swinson's Dunbartonshire East, albeit it is only 80% of it, plus bits of a whole bunch of other seats. I would make this a 50/50 shot for the LDs, depending on their ability to attract the anti-SNP tactical vote.

    So: in all probability no change to the LD count / SNP count in Scotland.

    Secondly: the LDs will struggle to win more than 28 or 29 seats. Once you get to that level, they need to start overhauling 10,000 vote majorities, and the party is only going to be on 11-15% nationwide. Can they do it on occasion? Sure. Is it likely to be widespread? Nope.

    Thirdly: the SNP will lose seats. They will almost certainly drop at least 10, and it could easily be 15. But their losses to the Conservatives are likely to be modest (if they exist at all). And their losses to the LibDems max out at 1, unless I've really miscalculated. Which means it's all on Lab-SNP battlegrounds. And there I can see Labour getting everything up to Glasgow South (11 gains), but then it gets tough.

    My best guess is SNP 33 seats, LDs 26 seats. Could the SNP lose more? Yes. Could the LDs gain more? Sure. But is it evens? Nope. It's about a 3-1 shot right now.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,393
    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    Can we please get back to the cricket?

    I don't mind the occasional foray into politics, or indeed folk dancing, aliens, AI, the fetid ugliness of Scots, and likeminded distractions, but ultimately we are here to talk about the cricket, and we should remember that

    Also, and this will come as a surprise to PB-ers, I was THERE yesterday, at Lord's. Yes

    Last time I checked this was politicalbetting.com not cricketbetting.com. Even if Rishi apparently thinks the Aussies were bad sports (though even worse were the oiks in the Long Room who booed them!)
    You mean, oiks like the members of the Bullingdon Club? Must be highly posh gents if they are in the Long Room.
    I doubt it, the Bullingdon Club may be almost extinct but I doubt any of their members would boo members of the opposing team.

    You can be rich but not posh, indeed as MCC membership is supposed to be by invite only and they have had to suspend 2 members yesterday, standards seem to have slipped as to who they invite
    Given where the Buller were educated, I beg to differ about their booing habits, in view of the behaviour of members of the relevant institutions at Lords - so bad that serious thought was given to banning the Eton vs Harrow match, and the two lots had to be segregated like something at Ibrox.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,415
    algarkirk said:

    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    Javid says halve the number of MPs and double their salaries.

    "If people want to see your GPs or senior nurses or headteachers or an accountant give up their job to want to come into Parliament they have to take a massive fall in their lifestyle to do it.

    "A lot of people are not willing to do that. So you tend to get in Parliament either really rich people who don't need money and therefore they don't care if their salary is £88,000 or £28,000....
    Or you will get people that were earning sort of £30,000 - £80,000 is a big jump but they might not come with the skills that Parliament needs.

    "If I had my way I would halve the number of MPs and double the salaries. That wouldn't cost the taxpayer a penny and you would get a much higher quality of Parliament - and ministers.”
    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/tory-millionaire-sajid-javid-says-30378243?utm_source=twitter.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=sharebar

    No - halve the number of unelected Lords, NOT the elected MPs!
    He's looking at the approach of how do you improve the quality of MPs without increasing costs.

    Personally I would just say we need to pay MPs more because heck I earn more than they do from my spare room...
    Personally I would say we need to pay MPs less because of supply and demand; there's no shortage of people applying to be MPs at the moment.

    An MPs salary is a big jump in pay for about 97% of the population.

    Based on these ONS figures I'd say about £40k is an appropriate income for MPs.

    image
    The problem with MPs pay is that what is needed is people who are...good at getting to know 60,000 people...
    Epic pedantry on my part, but that's an electorate of 60K. The mean number of people (inc children and unregistered people) in a constituency is about 105,000.

  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 4,840
    So, we exchange ridiculous property prices and rock bottom interest rates for ridiculous property prices and high interest rates. That's going to screw a vast number of people, though I can tell you for a fact that the one person more likely to suffer from it than Mr Average Mortgage Payer is Mr Average Renter. With the more highly leveraged BTL landlords stampeding for the exits, the supply of property in the private rental market will end up so constricted, and with so many people bidding for the remaining properties, that the surviving landlords will be able to charge... well, up to the limit that the best paid and most desperate available tenant is willing to stump up. The effect is already obvious on the property websites: even up here, some forty miles north of London, one bedroom flats (the very few still available) are up to about £900pcm, and I reckon they'll be going for a grand or more by the end of the year.

    For anyone with a decent slab of money to put down on investing in a rental property, either through outright purchase or with a small mortgage, this is the dawn of the Diamond Age of Landlordism. If you can afford one flat, somebody else's wages will end up paying all those expensive utility bills for you. If you can buy two, the second tenant's wages will also pay your grocery bills and you can spend most of your own salary on jollies, perhaps cut your working hours down and semi-retire. After all, why waste your own time working to support yourself when somebody else can waste their time working to support you instead?
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,657
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Javid says halve the number of MPs and double their salaries.

    "If people want to see your GPs or senior nurses or headteachers or an accountant give up their job to want to come into Parliament they have to take a massive fall in their lifestyle to do it.

    "A lot of people are not willing to do that. So you tend to get in Parliament either really rich people who don't need money and therefore they don't care if their salary is £88,000 or £28,000....
    Or you will get people that were earning sort of £30,000 - £80,000 is a big jump but they might not come with the skills that Parliament needs.

    "If I had my way I would halve the number of MPs and double the salaries. That wouldn't cost the taxpayer a penny and you would get a much higher quality of Parliament - and ministers.”
    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/tory-millionaire-sajid-javid-says-30378243?utm_source=twitter.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=sharebar

    No - halve the number of unelected Lords, NOT the elected MPs!
    Being a Lord is only a part time job and they just receive expenses and a decent lunch and dinner when in the Lords.

    Being an MP is a full time job and MPs get the final say on legislation, Lords can only scrutinise legislation and delay non money bills for a year but the Commons will still push it through unamended if a conflict between the 2
    You mean like Dorries ??????
  • eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    Javid says halve the number of MPs and double their salaries.

    "If people want to see your GPs or senior nurses or headteachers or an accountant give up their job to want to come into Parliament they have to take a massive fall in their lifestyle to do it.

    "A lot of people are not willing to do that. So you tend to get in Parliament either really rich people who don't need money and therefore they don't care if their salary is £88,000 or £28,000....
    Or you will get people that were earning sort of £30,000 - £80,000 is a big jump but they might not come with the skills that Parliament needs.

    "If I had my way I would halve the number of MPs and double the salaries. That wouldn't cost the taxpayer a penny and you would get a much higher quality of Parliament - and ministers.”
    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/tory-millionaire-sajid-javid-says-30378243?utm_source=twitter.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=sharebar

    No - halve the number of unelected Lords, NOT the elected MPs!
    He's looking at the approach of how do you improve the quality of MPs without increasing costs.

    Personally I would just say we need to pay MPs more because heck I earn more than they do from my spare room...
    Personally I would say we need to pay MPs less because of supply and demand; there's no shortage of people applying to be MPs at the moment.

    An MPs salary is a big jump in pay for about 97% of the population.

    Based on these ONS figures I'd say about £40k is an appropriate income for MPs.

    image
    If you put the salary down to zero you would still have enough people applying to fill the chamber, but you certainly would not attract a representative cross section of the population. I wonder if there is a sweet spot somewhere.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,591

    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    Javid says halve the number of MPs and double their salaries.

    "If people want to see your GPs or senior nurses or headteachers or an accountant give up their job to want to come into Parliament they have to take a massive fall in their lifestyle to do it.

    "A lot of people are not willing to do that. So you tend to get in Parliament either really rich people who don't need money and therefore they don't care if their salary is £88,000 or £28,000....
    Or you will get people that were earning sort of £30,000 - £80,000 is a big jump but they might not come with the skills that Parliament needs.

    "If I had my way I would halve the number of MPs and double the salaries. That wouldn't cost the taxpayer a penny and you would get a much higher quality of Parliament - and ministers.”
    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/tory-millionaire-sajid-javid-says-30378243?utm_source=twitter.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=sharebar

    No - halve the number of unelected Lords, NOT the elected MPs!
    He's looking at the approach of how do you improve the quality of MPs without increasing costs.

    Personally I would just say we need to pay MPs more because heck I earn more than they do from my spare room...
    Personally I would say we need to pay MPs less because of supply and demand; there's no shortage of people applying to be MPs at the moment.

    An MPs salary is a big jump in pay for about 97% of the population.

    Based on these ONS figures I'd say about £40k is an appropriate income for MPs.

    image
    If you put the salary down to zero you would still have enough people applying to fill the chamber, but you certainly would not attract a representative cross section of the population. I wonder if there is a sweet spot somewhere.
    Personally I'd put the salary up and remove all expenses and perks, and ban them from accepting freebie gifts like tickets to sports events and the like. No claiming for anything, it only leads to people intentionally and unintentionally failing to disclose, creating confusion and animosity.
  • EPGEPG Posts: 6,653
    pigeon said:

    So, we exchange ridiculous property prices and rock bottom interest rates for ridiculous property prices and high interest rates. That's going to screw a vast number of people, though I can tell you for a fact that the one person more likely to suffer from it than Mr Average Mortgage Payer is Mr Average Renter. With the more highly leveraged BTL landlords stampeding for the exits, the supply of property in the private rental market will end up so constricted, and with so many people bidding for the remaining properties, that the surviving landlords will be able to charge... well, up to the limit that the best paid and most desperate available tenant is willing to stump up. The effect is already obvious on the property websites: even up here, some forty miles north of London, one bedroom flats (the very few still available) are up to about £900pcm, and I reckon they'll be going for a grand or more by the end of the year.

    For anyone with a decent slab of money to put down on investing in a rental property, either through outright purchase or with a small mortgage, this is the dawn of the Diamond Age of Landlordism. If you can afford one flat, somebody else's wages will end up paying all those expensive utility bills for you. If you can buy two, the second tenant's wages will also pay your grocery bills and you can spend most of your own salary on jollies, perhaps cut your working hours down and semi-retire. After all, why waste your own time working to support yourself when somebody else can waste their time working to support you instead?

    I suppose it depends on whom leveraged BTL owners sell their properties to. Cash-rich investors: likely no change; though the transaction might lead to a one-off price adjustment, in cases where the previous landlord got inattentive about repricing in line with market rents. Owner-occupiers: likely a big compression of the number of workers housed per property, and the above dynamics apply to the people who don't end up buying. As you say, the rents may be high but the prices are also high.
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 4,865
    Leon said:

    Can we please get back to the cricket?

    I don't mind the occasional foray into politics, or indeed folk dancing, aliens, AI, the fetid ugliness of Scots, and likeminded distractions, but ultimately we are here to talk about the cricket, and we should remember that

    Also, and this will come as a surprise to PB-ers, I was THERE yesterday, at Lord's. Yes

    To think we could be talking about Wimbledon.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,591

    boulay said:

    HYUFD said:

    Javid says halve the number of MPs and double their salaries.

    "If people want to see your GPs or senior nurses or headteachers or an accountant give up their job to want to come into Parliament they have to take a massive fall in their lifestyle to do it.

    "A lot of people are not willing to do that. So you tend to get in Parliament either really rich people who don't need money and therefore they don't care if their salary is £88,000 or £28,000....
    Or you will get people that were earning sort of £30,000 - £80,000 is a big jump but they might not come with the skills that Parliament needs.

    "If I had my way I would halve the number of MPs and double the salaries. That wouldn't cost the taxpayer a penny and you would get a much higher quality of Parliament - and ministers.”
    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/tory-millionaire-sajid-javid-says-30378243?utm_source=twitter.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=sharebar

    To help visualise Javid’s plan below we have an image of a current MP on the left and an MP who has been halved on the right.


    :lol: That photo always cracks me up :lol:
    I'm about the same height as Rishi so I'm allowed to make fun of him, but he genuinely looks photoshopped into that picture. Something about the head and the background doesn't look right.

    But fair play to him for not insisting on something silly like a photo of him standing and Kawcznski sitting.
  • murali_smurali_s Posts: 3,067

    Leon said:

    Can we please get back to the cricket?

    I don't mind the occasional foray into politics, or indeed folk dancing, aliens, AI, the fetid ugliness of Scots, and likeminded distractions, but ultimately we are here to talk about the cricket, and we should remember that

    Also, and this will come as a surprise to PB-ers, I was THERE yesterday, at Lord's. Yes

    The most utterly tedious, boring, snooze-fest "sport" in the world?

    Cruellest aspect of British rule in South Asia was teaching the forebears of today's Indians, Pakistanis, Bangladeshis and Sri Lankans how to play sodding cricket instead of, say, football.
    As someone of Sri Lankan descent, I violently disagree. Cricket is probably the best sport in the World.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,975
    kle4 said:

    boulay said:

    HYUFD said:

    Javid says halve the number of MPs and double their salaries.

    "If people want to see your GPs or senior nurses or headteachers or an accountant give up their job to want to come into Parliament they have to take a massive fall in their lifestyle to do it.

    "A lot of people are not willing to do that. So you tend to get in Parliament either really rich people who don't need money and therefore they don't care if their salary is £88,000 or £28,000....
    Or you will get people that were earning sort of £30,000 - £80,000 is a big jump but they might not come with the skills that Parliament needs.

    "If I had my way I would halve the number of MPs and double the salaries. That wouldn't cost the taxpayer a penny and you would get a much higher quality of Parliament - and ministers.”
    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/tory-millionaire-sajid-javid-says-30378243?utm_source=twitter.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=sharebar

    To help visualise Javid’s plan below we have an image of a current MP on the left and an MP who has been halved on the right.


    :lol: That photo always cracks me up :lol:
    I'm about the same height as Rishi so I'm allowed to make fun of him, but he genuinely looks photoshopped into that picture. Something about the head and the background doesn't look right.

    But fair play to him for not insisting on something silly like a photo of him standing and Kawcznski sitting.
    Still my favourite Sunak photo.


  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 22,415
    edited July 2023
    HYUFD said:

    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    Javid says halve the number of MPs and double their salaries.

    "If people want to see your GPs or senior nurses or headteachers or an accountant give up their job to want to come into Parliament they have to take a massive fall in their lifestyle to do it.

    "A lot of people are not willing to do that. So you tend to get in Parliament either really rich people who don't need money and therefore they don't care if their salary is £88,000 or £28,000....
    Or you will get people that were earning sort of £30,000 - £80,000 is a big jump but they might not come with the skills that Parliament needs.

    "If I had my way I would halve the number of MPs and double the salaries. That wouldn't cost the taxpayer a penny and you would get a much higher quality of Parliament - and ministers.”
    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/tory-millionaire-sajid-javid-says-30378243?utm_source=twitter.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=sharebar

    No - halve the number of unelected Lords, NOT the elected MPs!
    He's looking at the approach of how do you improve the quality of MPs without increasing costs.

    Personally I would just say we need to pay MPs more because heck I earn more than they do from my spare room...
    Personally I would say we need to pay MPs less because of supply and demand; there's no shortage of people applying to be MPs at the moment.

    An MPs salary is a big jump in pay for about 97% of the population.

    Based on these ONS figures I'd say about £40k is an appropriate income for MPs.

    image
    County Council Cabinet members get more than that, London AMs, Scottish and Welsh Parliament and NI Assembly members get more than that. I currently get more than that as do probably 25%+ of the population
    Then maybe County Council Cabinet members, London AMs, Scottish, Welsh and NI members etc are overpaid too and could face some austerity too.

    Doing better than 75% of the population is no mean thing. Especially in a job where there's absolutely no shortage of candidates to fill each vacancy.

    Personally I think having MPs wages linked to median wages would be a good idea. If an MP is struggling at about 3x the average income currently then what does that say of those the MP is supposed to be representing.

    1.2x or 1.5x median income I think would be a reasonable pay rate for an MP.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,591
    algarkirk said:

    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    Javid says halve the number of MPs and double their salaries.

    "If people want to see your GPs or senior nurses or headteachers or an accountant give up their job to want to come into Parliament they have to take a massive fall in their lifestyle to do it.

    "A lot of people are not willing to do that. So you tend to get in Parliament either really rich people who don't need money and therefore they don't care if their salary is £88,000 or £28,000....
    Or you will get people that were earning sort of £30,000 - £80,000 is a big jump but they might not come with the skills that Parliament needs.

    "If I had my way I would halve the number of MPs and double the salaries. That wouldn't cost the taxpayer a penny and you would get a much higher quality of Parliament - and ministers.”
    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/tory-millionaire-sajid-javid-says-30378243?utm_source=twitter.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=sharebar

    No - halve the number of unelected Lords, NOT the elected MPs!
    He's looking at the approach of how do you improve the quality of MPs without increasing costs.

    Personally I would just say we need to pay MPs more because heck I earn more than they do from my spare room...
    Personally I would say we need to pay MPs less because of supply and demand; there's no shortage of people applying to be MPs at the moment.

    An MPs salary is a big jump in pay for about 97% of the population.

    Based on these ONS figures I'd say about £40k is an appropriate income for MPs.

    image
    The problem with MPs pay is that what is needed is people who are vocational servants of the nation, highly intelligent and able to scrutinise legislation, morally magnificent and exemplary, both independent minded and loyal to their party, good at getting to know 60,000 people and good on the telly.

    This cannot be bought; and you are as likely to get the right mix by paying nothing at all as by paying £xtrillion.
    Indeed. Basically you need and want truly exceptional people, of which there are not 650 in the first place and most of whom couldn't be tempted to do it anyway.

    But we do seem to do a very bad job of fostering a culture which rewards good legislative skills or morals amongst our political elites.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 13,215
    edited July 2023
    That chart I think underestimates the problem. It focuses on first time buyers, but of course first time buyers have been getting older.

    This chart only goes back to 2011 but shows the trend even since then.

    https://www.statista.com/statistics/557901/first-time-home-buyers-average-age-united-kingdom/

    If you then consider average salary by age (see below link)

    https://www.ncchomelearning.co.uk/blog/the-average-uk-salary/

    ...it means that affordability on a like for like basis is significantly worse than the chart suggests. In other words mortgages are as unaffordable for 32 year olds now as they were for 28 year olds in the financial crisis and probably something like 25 year olds in 1990.

  • El_CapitanoEl_Capitano Posts: 4,240
    edited July 2023
    rcs1000 said:

    Secondly: the LDs will struggle to win more than 28 or 29 seats. Once you get to that level, they need to start overhauling 10,000 vote majorities, and the party is only going to be on 11-15% nationwide. Can they do it on occasion? Sure. Is it likely to be widespread? Nope.

    So my gut reaction based on past performance is to agree with you.

    However...

    Henley has a Conservative majority of 14k over the LibDems. Wantage is 13k. (2019 GE, obviously.)

    Vale of White Horse District Council now has no (0) Conservative councillors. South Oxfordshire District Council has one (1). That's after the 2023 locals.

    I find it really difficult to reconcile "the Conservatives have been entirely wiped out locally" with "the Conservatives are going to retain the parliamentary seat". Yes, I know people vote differently at locals vs the general. But not that differently.

    With that in mind, I can see two caps on the LibDems' performance. One is simply resources. They have a realistic chance in four seats in Oxfordshire (including one defence) and I doubt they have the resources to throw at all four.

    And the other is our old friend FPTP. Labour has no chance in any of these four seats or indeed much of the Home Counties. But Starmer all over the airwaves for weeks will potentially divert enough casual anti-Tory voters to Labour to deprive the LibDems of victory. The LibDems traditionally work round this by carpet-bombing with leaflets but I don't think they'll have the resources to do this everywhere.

    So I honestly don't know. I can see realistic scenarios anywhere between 10 and 55 seats for the LibDems.
  • RattersRatters Posts: 1,111

    Rachel Reeves promising to support buy-to-let landlords was a political and economic mistake.

    What the hell!? Seriously? Any link to what she said?
    The Tory mortgage bombshell is causing huge harm to families.

    Now they risk a snowball effect, with buy-to-let properties excluded from the mortgage charter.

    Labour would make sure all mortgages holders are protected - including buy-to-let.


    https://twitter.com/rachelreevesmp/status/1675434079267831808
    The positioning of all three parties on this has been awful. The Tories own the mess and show no willingness to change, the Lib Dems want to subsidise mortgages and undermine the BoE, and Labour supporting buy to let.

    Of the three, Labour probably still come out on top given they are more likely to give the green light to planning reform and new building.

    Some other suggestions:
    - Abolish council tax (paid by tenants and inconsistent nationally) and stamp duty (a tax on mobility, discourage downsizing and efficient housing stock allocation) with an annual property tax on the value that is re-rated with house market index data annually
    - Vacant properties pay double the above rate, perhaps increasing with time to encourage efficient use of a scarce resource
    - Proper infrastructure investment to support new houses built.
  • EPGEPG Posts: 6,653
    TimS said:

    That chart I think underestimates the problem. It focuses on first time buyers, but of course first time buyers have been getting older.

    This chart only goes back to 2011 but shows the trend even since then.

    https://www.statista.com/statistics/557901/first-time-home-buyers-average-age-united-kingdom/

    If you then consider average salary by age (see below link)

    https://www.ncchomelearning.co.uk/blog/the-average-uk-salary/

    ...it means that affordability on a like for like basis is significantly worse than the chart suggests. In other words mortgages are as unaffordable for 32 year olds now as they were for 28 year olds in the financial crisis and probably something like 25 year olds in 1990.

    However, the older they get, the more likely they are to be in dual-income households.
  • .
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Javid says halve the number of MPs and double their salaries.

    "If people want to see your GPs or senior nurses or headteachers or an accountant give up their job to want to come into Parliament they have to take a massive fall in their lifestyle to do it.

    "A lot of people are not willing to do that. So you tend to get in Parliament either really rich people who don't need money and therefore they don't care if their salary is £88,000 or £28,000....
    Or you will get people that were earning sort of £30,000 - £80,000 is a big jump but they might not come with the skills that Parliament needs.

    "If I had my way I would halve the number of MPs and double the salaries. That wouldn't cost the taxpayer a penny and you would get a much higher quality of Parliament - and ministers.”
    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/tory-millionaire-sajid-javid-says-30378243?utm_source=twitter.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=sharebar

    No - halve the number of unelected Lords, NOT the elected MPs!
    Being a Lord is only a part time job and they just receive expenses and a decent lunch and dinner when in the Lords.

    Being an MP is a full time job and MPs get the final say on legislation, Lords can only scrutinise legislation and delay non money bills for a year but the Commons will still push it through unamended if a conflict between the 2
    Being an MP is a part time job.

    That is why Ministers exist. Because MPs who are Ministers are able to fulfil their Ministerial responsibilities as another job alongside their part time job of being an MP, not instead of it.
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 8,680
    Leon said:

    boulay said:

    HYUFD said:

    Javid says halve the number of MPs and double their salaries.

    "If people want to see your GPs or senior nurses or headteachers or an accountant give up their job to want to come into Parliament they have to take a massive fall in their lifestyle to do it.

    "A lot of people are not willing to do that. So you tend to get in Parliament either really rich people who don't need money and therefore they don't care if their salary is £88,000 or £28,000....
    Or you will get people that were earning sort of £30,000 - £80,000 is a big jump but they might not come with the skills that Parliament needs.

    "If I had my way I would halve the number of MPs and double the salaries. That wouldn't cost the taxpayer a penny and you would get a much higher quality of Parliament - and ministers.”
    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/tory-millionaire-sajid-javid-says-30378243?utm_source=twitter.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=sharebar

    To help visualise Javid’s plan below we have an image of a current MP on the left and an MP who has been halved on the right.


    That photo is going to be immortal, isn't it?

    It is very hard to believe it is real. In future people will claim it was all faked with Stable Diffuson
    How must he feel when he sees that? What does he say to himself?
  • EPGEPG Posts: 6,653
    As long as we're poking historical holes, the first-time buyer house is probably higher spec today than in the 80s, if for no other reason than energy regs.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,149
    edited July 2023
    carnforth said:

    Leon said:

    Can we please get back to the cricket?

    I don't mind the occasional foray into politics, or indeed folk dancing, aliens, AI, the fetid ugliness of Scots, and likeminded distractions, but ultimately we are here to talk about the cricket, and we should remember that

    Also, and this will come as a surprise to PB-ers, I was THERE yesterday, at Lord's. Yes

    To think we could be talking about Wimbledon.
    5-time winner Venus Williams loses in the first round, aged 43!
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,415
    EPG said:

    As long as we're poking historical holes, the first-time buyer house is probably higher spec today than in the 80s, if for no other reason than energy regs.

    They're getting pokier.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,987
    edited July 2023

    .

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Javid says halve the number of MPs and double their salaries.

    "If people want to see your GPs or senior nurses or headteachers or an accountant give up their job to want to come into Parliament they have to take a massive fall in their lifestyle to do it.

    "A lot of people are not willing to do that. So you tend to get in Parliament either really rich people who don't need money and therefore they don't care if their salary is £88,000 or £28,000....
    Or you will get people that were earning sort of £30,000 - £80,000 is a big jump but they might not come with the skills that Parliament needs.

    "If I had my way I would halve the number of MPs and double the salaries. That wouldn't cost the taxpayer a penny and you would get a much higher quality of Parliament - and ministers.”
    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/tory-millionaire-sajid-javid-says-30378243?utm_source=twitter.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=sharebar

    No - halve the number of unelected Lords, NOT the elected MPs!
    Being a Lord is only a part time job and they just receive expenses and a decent lunch and dinner when in the Lords.

    Being an MP is a full time job and MPs get the final say on legislation, Lords can only scrutinise legislation and delay non money bills for a year but the Commons will still push it through unamended if a conflict between the 2
    Being an MP is a part time job.

    That is why Ministers exist. Because MPs who are Ministers are able to fulfil their Ministerial responsibilities as another job alongside their part time job of being an MP, not instead of it.
    No it isn't, you have constituency casework Lords don't have and also you still have to debate and vote on laws, budgets and government policy.

    Ministers work even longer hours for more pay and have more constituency staff
  • EPG said:

    pigeon said:

    So, we exchange ridiculous property prices and rock bottom interest rates for ridiculous property prices and high interest rates. That's going to screw a vast number of people, though I can tell you for a fact that the one person more likely to suffer from it than Mr Average Mortgage Payer is Mr Average Renter. With the more highly leveraged BTL landlords stampeding for the exits, the supply of property in the private rental market will end up so constricted, and with so many people bidding for the remaining properties, that the surviving landlords will be able to charge... well, up to the limit that the best paid and most desperate available tenant is willing to stump up. The effect is already obvious on the property websites: even up here, some forty miles north of London, one bedroom flats (the very few still available) are up to about £900pcm, and I reckon they'll be going for a grand or more by the end of the year.

    For anyone with a decent slab of money to put down on investing in a rental property, either through outright purchase or with a small mortgage, this is the dawn of the Diamond Age of Landlordism. If you can afford one flat, somebody else's wages will end up paying all those expensive utility bills for you. If you can buy two, the second tenant's wages will also pay your grocery bills and you can spend most of your own salary on jollies, perhaps cut your working hours down and semi-retire. After all, why waste your own time working to support yourself when somebody else can waste their time working to support you instead?

    I suppose it depends on whom leveraged BTL owners sell their properties to. Cash-rich investors: likely no change; though the transaction might lead to a one-off price adjustment, in cases where the previous landlord got inattentive about repricing in line with market rents. Owner-occupiers: likely a big compression of the number of workers housed per property, and the above dynamics apply to the people who don't end up buying. As you say, the rents may be high but the prices are also high.
    Why would there be a compression of the number of workers housed per property?

    That's linked primarily to age [ie students, or those at the very start of their career], not whether people buy or let.

    There is next to no difference between average household size for rental or owner-occupied and that difference that exists is fully explained by the fact tenants are more likely to have dependent children living with them (who are not workers) while pensioner owner occupiers don't.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,888
    viewcode said:

    algarkirk said:

    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    Javid says halve the number of MPs and double their salaries.

    "If people want to see your GPs or senior nurses or headteachers or an accountant give up their job to want to come into Parliament they have to take a massive fall in their lifestyle to do it.

    "A lot of people are not willing to do that. So you tend to get in Parliament either really rich people who don't need money and therefore they don't care if their salary is £88,000 or £28,000....
    Or you will get people that were earning sort of £30,000 - £80,000 is a big jump but they might not come with the skills that Parliament needs.

    "If I had my way I would halve the number of MPs and double the salaries. That wouldn't cost the taxpayer a penny and you would get a much higher quality of Parliament - and ministers.”
    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/tory-millionaire-sajid-javid-says-30378243?utm_source=twitter.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=sharebar

    No - halve the number of unelected Lords, NOT the elected MPs!
    He's looking at the approach of how do you improve the quality of MPs without increasing costs.

    Personally I would just say we need to pay MPs more because heck I earn more than they do from my spare room...
    Personally I would say we need to pay MPs less because of supply and demand; there's no shortage of people applying to be MPs at the moment.

    An MPs salary is a big jump in pay for about 97% of the population.

    Based on these ONS figures I'd say about £40k is an appropriate income for MPs.

    image
    The problem with MPs pay is that what is needed is people who are...good at getting to know 60,000 people...
    Epic pedantry on my part, but that's an electorate of 60K. The mean number of people (inc children and unregistered people) in a constituency is about 105,000.

    I'll amend that to 60,000 gentlemen, their concubines, wives, servants and daughters.

  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,557
    Barnesian said:

    Leon said:

    boulay said:

    HYUFD said:

    Javid says halve the number of MPs and double their salaries.

    "If people want to see your GPs or senior nurses or headteachers or an accountant give up their job to want to come into Parliament they have to take a massive fall in their lifestyle to do it.

    "A lot of people are not willing to do that. So you tend to get in Parliament either really rich people who don't need money and therefore they don't care if their salary is £88,000 or £28,000....
    Or you will get people that were earning sort of £30,000 - £80,000 is a big jump but they might not come with the skills that Parliament needs.

    "If I had my way I would halve the number of MPs and double the salaries. That wouldn't cost the taxpayer a penny and you would get a much higher quality of Parliament - and ministers.”
    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/tory-millionaire-sajid-javid-says-30378243?utm_source=twitter.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=sharebar

    To help visualise Javid’s plan below we have an image of a current MP on the left and an MP who has been halved on the right.


    That photo is going to be immortal, isn't it?

    It is very hard to believe it is real. In future people will claim it was all faked with Stable Diffuson
    How must he feel when he sees that? What does he say to himself?
    I would imagine he doesn’t really care. And if he feels down he logs in to his online banking and cheers himself up.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    TimS said:

    That chart I think underestimates the problem. It focuses on first time buyers, but of course first time buyers have been getting older.

    This chart only goes back to 2011 but shows the trend even since then.

    https://www.statista.com/statistics/557901/first-time-home-buyers-average-age-united-kingdom/

    If you then consider average salary by age (see below link)

    https://www.ncchomelearning.co.uk/blog/the-average-uk-salary/

    ...it means that affordability on a like for like basis is significantly worse than the chart suggests. In other words mortgages are as unaffordable for 32 year olds now as they were for 28 year olds in the financial crisis and probably something like 25 year olds in 1990.

    This is a very good point. Comparisons are also somewhat complicated by changes in household composition (e.g. number of single-earner vs two-earner households), and changes in the relationship between median and mean incomes.

    But, in the big picture, the key point in political terms is that the situation is not great for Sunak.
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