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ATTENTION Mid-Beds by-election punters – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,217
edited July 2023 in General
imageATTENTION Mid-Beds by-election punters – politicalbetting.com

Twenty days ago Nadine Dorries announced that she was standing down as a MP for Mid Bedfordshire with “immediate effect”. She still hasn’t submitted her resignation.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,655
    FPT:
    Nigelb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    What an utter, utter indictment.

    "The government has “no true grasp on the costs” involved in preventing a collapse of Thames Water, with estimates presented to ministers and regulators suggesting the company could be facing a hole of £10bn in its finances, the Guardian can reveal.


    The water company, which serves 15 million customers, is in emergency talks with the water regulator Ofwat, ministers and government departments after the departure of its chief executive and concerns over its ability to continue operating without a multibillion cash injection."

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/jun/28/thames-water-in-crisis-talks-over-potential-10bn-black-hole-cost-possible-collapse

    10 billion pounds, with bills also going up at least 25%, if not 40, to bail out decades of leveraging. An absolute scandal, ;there's no other way to describe it.

    Why the hell should the taxpayer prevent a collapse of a private firm?

    You privatise the gains, you privatise the losses. If Thames Water collapses then it collapses and the shareholders and bondholders get wiped out - that's the market working. Those shareholders and bondholders made a bad investment and bad investments should never be bailed out by taxpayers.

    If Thames Water collapses and goes into bankruptcy, then the state can step in to buy out the assets at pennies on the pound to ensure continuity of service, but there is no reason whatsoever to bail out the firm, or its shareholders, or its bondholders.
    The state needn't step in; that's why there are insolvency practitioners.

    Macquarie Infrastructure Funds will lose all their money.
    The bond holders will lose around 30-40%.

    And someone else will own and run Thames Water.
    Why will Macquarie lose any of their money ? They haven't been shareholders for half a decade. (Though they recently bought into another UK water company.)
    I've noted this at least half a dozen times in the last couple of days. Am I wrong ?

    The state may well step in to take it into temporary public ownership. It is not the role of insolvency practitioners to ensure continued public service from bankrupt utilities.
    Because, absent interest payments, Thames Water will be highly profitable.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,159
    Second.

    I suggested at the time that she wasn’t going to go through with it. She won’t give up one prize unless she is given another.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,256
    edited June 2023
    rcs1000 said:

    FPT:

    Nigelb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    What an utter, utter indictment.

    "The government has “no true grasp on the costs” involved in preventing a collapse of Thames Water, with estimates presented to ministers and regulators suggesting the company could be facing a hole of £10bn in its finances, the Guardian can reveal.


    The water company, which serves 15 million customers, is in emergency talks with the water regulator Ofwat, ministers and government departments after the departure of its chief executive and concerns over its ability to continue operating without a multibillion cash injection."

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/jun/28/thames-water-in-crisis-talks-over-potential-10bn-black-hole-cost-possible-collapse

    10 billion pounds, with bills also going up at least 25%, if not 40, to bail out decades of leveraging. An absolute scandal, ;there's no other way to describe it.

    Why the hell should the taxpayer prevent a collapse of a private firm?

    You privatise the gains, you privatise the losses. If Thames Water collapses then it collapses and the shareholders and bondholders get wiped out - that's the market working. Those shareholders and bondholders made a bad investment and bad investments should never be bailed out by taxpayers.

    If Thames Water collapses and goes into bankruptcy, then the state can step in to buy out the assets at pennies on the pound to ensure continuity of service, but there is no reason whatsoever to bail out the firm, or its shareholders, or its bondholders.
    The state needn't step in; that's why there are insolvency practitioners.

    Macquarie Infrastructure Funds will lose all their money.
    The bond holders will lose around 30-40%.

    And someone else will own and run Thames Water.
    Why will Macquarie lose any of their money ? They haven't been shareholders for half a decade. (Though they recently bought into another UK water company.)
    I've noted this at least half a dozen times in the last couple of days. Am I wrong ?

    The state may well step in to take it into temporary public ownership. It is not the role of insolvency practitioners to ensure continued public service from bankrupt utilities.
    Because, absent interest payments, Thames Water will be highly profitable.
    Assuming it carries on as it has been - but they are proposing to take out more debt to fund necessary infrastructure improvements, separately funded by an additional levy in water bills.

    'Would be highly profitable' assumes that they've been spending sufficient money to maintain infrastructure; the evidence is that they haven't.

    Putting the business into administration assumes no risks to continuing operations. Politically, that's a fairly brave assumption.

    And if course one of the reasons they have so much debt is that they've financed spending with debt rather than cash generated from operations.
    Which makes the profitability assumption dubious.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,256
    Is he really running for the Democratic nomination ?

    RFK Jr. argues gun control cannot ‘meaningfully’ reduce gun violence
    https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/4072813-rfk-jr-argues-gun-control-cannot-meaningfully-reduce-gun-violence/

    RFK Jr. won’t commit to supporting Biden if he loses primary
    https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/4072758-rfk-jr-wont-commit-to-supporting-biden-if-he-loses-primary/

    RFK Jr.: ‘I’m proud that President Trump likes me’
    https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/4072768-rfk-jr-im-proud-that-president-trump-likes-me/
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 4,840
    IanB2 said:

    Second.

    I suggested at the time that she wasn’t going to go through with it. She won’t give up one prize unless she is given another.

    And it looks like you're right. Assuming that she's not given the peerage, she's just going to squat in the seat until the next election, doing no work but collecting the salary.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,516
    edited June 2023
    Nigelb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    FPT:

    Nigelb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    What an utter, utter indictment.

    "The government has “no true grasp on the costs” involved in preventing a collapse of Thames Water, with estimates presented to ministers and regulators suggesting the company could be facing a hole of £10bn in its finances, the Guardian can reveal.


    The water company, which serves 15 million customers, is in emergency talks with the water regulator Ofwat, ministers and government departments after the departure of its chief executive and concerns over its ability to continue operating without a multibillion cash injection."

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/jun/28/thames-water-in-crisis-talks-over-potential-10bn-black-hole-cost-possible-collapse

    10 billion pounds, with bills also going up at least 25%, if not 40, to bail out decades of leveraging. An absolute scandal, ;there's no other way to describe it.

    Why the hell should the taxpayer prevent a collapse of a private firm?

    You privatise the gains, you privatise the losses. If Thames Water collapses then it collapses and the shareholders and bondholders get wiped out - that's the market working. Those shareholders and bondholders made a bad investment and bad investments should never be bailed out by taxpayers.

    If Thames Water collapses and goes into bankruptcy, then the state can step in to buy out the assets at pennies on the pound to ensure continuity of service, but there is no reason whatsoever to bail out the firm, or its shareholders, or its bondholders.
    The state needn't step in; that's why there are insolvency practitioners.

    Macquarie Infrastructure Funds will lose all their money.
    The bond holders will lose around 30-40%.

    And someone else will own and run Thames Water.
    Why will Macquarie lose any of their money ? They haven't been shareholders for half a decade. (Though they recently bought into another UK water company.)
    I've noted this at least half a dozen times in the last couple of days. Am I wrong ?

    The state may well step in to take it into temporary public ownership. It is not the role of insolvency practitioners to ensure continued public service from bankrupt utilities.
    Because, absent interest payments, Thames Water will be highly profitable.
    Assuming it carries on as it has been - but they are proposing to take out more debt to fund necessary infrastructure improvements, separately funded by an additional levy in water bills.

    'Would be highly profitable' assumes that they've been spending sufficient money to maintain infrastructure; the evidence is that they haven't.

    Putting the business into administration assumes no risks to continuing operations. Politically, that's a fairly brave assumption.

    And if course one of the reasons they have so much debt is that they've financed spending with debt rather than cash generated from operations.
    Which makes the profitability assumption dubious.
    Im afraid I cant see it carrying on as normal.

    The current crisis will see the credit rating agencies slash the available credit in the market.
    Companies insuring their TW debts so they can use invoice discounting will suddenly find they cant trade that much with TW and will have to ask for pro forma payments. This will increase the cash squeeze on TW.

    When I worked in a water industry supplier TW were always what we called a slow payer. If they get even slower this will impact the work we can do. Even worse they are due to acquire the Thames Tideway infrastructure when it is complete. Funding this could be a challenge.



  • ClippPClippP Posts: 1,920
    Yesterday, there was comment on PB about the House of Commons taking action against those MPs - Boris Johnson defenders - who had attacked the Priviledges Committee for its criticism of the said Johnson. There was talk about the possibility of their suspension for a number of days.

    I wonder if the House of Commons will suspend the disruptive Conservative MPs long enough for their constituents to be able to go for a recall. And if that should happen, in how many seats would the constituents be motivated to back a recall. And if they did in some seats, whether they might feel inclined to dispose of Mad Nad, who doesn't seem to be doing anything useful these days.

    Just a thought.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,769
    Honestly, Dorries. An arrogant wannabe posh women who doesn’t know the price of a peerage.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,769
    pigeon said:

    IanB2 said:

    Second.

    I suggested at the time that she wasn’t going to go through with it. She won’t give up one prize unless she is given another.

    And it looks like you're right. Assuming that she's not given the peerage, she's just going to squat in the seat until the next election, doing no work but collecting the salary.
    Worked for Heath for thirty years.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,972
    It would appear that Mad Nads will be found in contempt of parliament later today. That may change the dynamic. Also in need of change is that various people proffered gongs in the Boris! Dishonours list will also be found in contempt of parliament - at least Mogg and Clarke off top of my head.

    This one is pretty simple - anyone who committed contempt of parliament should have their stupid title cancelled. There can be no reward for that kind of behaviour, especially if (when?) the committee proposes sanctions.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,256

    Nigelb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    FPT:

    Nigelb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    What an utter, utter indictment.

    "The government has “no true grasp on the costs” involved in preventing a collapse of Thames Water, with estimates presented to ministers and regulators suggesting the company could be facing a hole of £10bn in its finances, the Guardian can reveal.


    The water company, which serves 15 million customers, is in emergency talks with the water regulator Ofwat, ministers and government departments after the departure of its chief executive and concerns over its ability to continue operating without a multibillion cash injection."

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/jun/28/thames-water-in-crisis-talks-over-potential-10bn-black-hole-cost-possible-collapse

    10 billion pounds, with bills also going up at least 25%, if not 40, to bail out decades of leveraging. An absolute scandal, ;there's no other way to describe it.

    Why the hell should the taxpayer prevent a collapse of a private firm?

    You privatise the gains, you privatise the losses. If Thames Water collapses then it collapses and the shareholders and bondholders get wiped out - that's the market working. Those shareholders and bondholders made a bad investment and bad investments should never be bailed out by taxpayers.

    If Thames Water collapses and goes into bankruptcy, then the state can step in to buy out the assets at pennies on the pound to ensure continuity of service, but there is no reason whatsoever to bail out the firm, or its shareholders, or its bondholders.
    The state needn't step in; that's why there are insolvency practitioners.

    Macquarie Infrastructure Funds will lose all their money.
    The bond holders will lose around 30-40%.

    And someone else will own and run Thames Water.
    Why will Macquarie lose any of their money ? They haven't been shareholders for half a decade. (Though they recently bought into another UK water company.)
    I've noted this at least half a dozen times in the last couple of days. Am I wrong ?

    The state may well step in to take it into temporary public ownership. It is not the role of insolvency practitioners to ensure continued public service from bankrupt utilities.
    Because, absent interest payments, Thames Water will be highly profitable.
    Assuming it carries on as it has been - but they are proposing to take out more debt to fund necessary infrastructure improvements, separately funded by an additional levy in water bills.

    'Would be highly profitable' assumes that they've been spending sufficient money to maintain infrastructure; the evidence is that they haven't.

    Putting the business into administration assumes no risks to continuing operations. Politically, that's a fairly brave assumption.

    And if course one of the reasons they have so much debt is that they've financed spending with debt rather than cash generated from operations.
    Which makes the profitability assumption dubious.
    Im afraid I cant see it carrying on as normal.

    The current crisis will see the credit rating agencies slash the available credit in the market.
    Companies insuring their TW debts so they can use invoice discounting will suddenly find they cant trade that much with TW and will have to ask for pro forma payments. This will increase the cash squeeze on TW.

    When I worked in a water industry supplier TW were always what we called a slow payer. If they get even slower this will impact the work we can do. Even worse they are due to acquire the Thames Tideway infrastructure when it is complete. Funding this could be a challenge.
    There's another argument for a period of temporary public ownership - it would give government an unhindered look at the internal workings of the business, and perhaps a better appreciation of the structural problems which affect pretty well the entire industry.

    It has accumulated a very large amount of debt over the last two decades, much of it at a time when interest rates were at historic (and unlikely to be repeated anytime soon) lows.

    It's now apparent that there was underinvestment across the entire industry despite that. Which calls into question all the reported profits (which Robert alludes to at the top of the thread).

  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,769

    It would appear that Mad Nads will be found in contempt of parliament later today. That may change the dynamic. Also in need of change is that various people proffered gongs in the Boris! Dishonours list will also be found in contempt of parliament - at least Mogg and Clarke off top of my head.

    This one is pretty simple - anyone who committed contempt of parliament should have their stupid title cancelled. There can be no reward for that kind of behaviour, especially if (when?) the committee proposes sanctions.

    I disagree.

    It shouldn’t be cancelled.

    Instead, it should be changed to ‘Greasy Johnsonite.’

    With no option of refusal.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,657

    It would appear that Mad Nads will be found in contempt of parliament later today. That may change the dynamic. Also in need of change is that various people proffered gongs in the Boris! Dishonours list will also be found in contempt of parliament - at least Mogg and Clarke off top of my head.

    This one is pretty simple - anyone who committed contempt of parliament should have their stupid title cancelled. There can be no reward for that kind of behaviour, especially if (when?) the committee proposes sanctions.

    Good morning

    You are correct but does anyone really think anything will change

    I see Sunak has guaranteed the triple lock and will include it in the conservative manifesto and predictably Starmer has affirmed the same commitment to the triple lock

    We have another 18 months of this and frankly I doubt anything much will change with PM Starmer
    .
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,031
    Grr, trying to organise work around the Ashes, and blooming customer moves early morning meeting to just after lunch.
  • Nigelb said:

    Is he really running for the Democratic nomination ?

    RFK Jr. argues gun control cannot ‘meaningfully’ reduce gun violence
    https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/4072813-rfk-jr-argues-gun-control-cannot-meaningfully-reduce-gun-violence/

    RFK Jr. won’t commit to supporting Biden if he loses primary
    https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/4072758-rfk-jr-wont-commit-to-supporting-biden-if-he-loses-primary/

    RFK Jr.: ‘I’m proud that President Trump likes me’
    https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/4072768-rfk-jr-im-proud-that-president-trump-likes-me/

    He is but there is a good chance he runs as an independent candidate (although it is not that easy in absence of a formal party).
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,491

    I see from the last thread that Sadiq Khan is being accused of doing nothing as well as of introducing an unprecedented assault on the rights of drivers of really dirty old cars. It really can't be both.
    Within the narrow confines of the Mayor of London job, and the deliberately mean financial constraints imposed by central government, Khan is doing a good job. He's certainly out-performing his utterly useless and corrupt predecessor. He's not thrown money away on a pointless garden bridge to nowhere, he's not thrown money at a too expensive to run retro bus design, and unlike Johnson who cancelled a crucial Thames river crossing in the east he is building one. Oh, and he's overseen the biggest expansion in council housing since the 1970s as well as bravely taking on vested interests to improve London's fatally bad air quality. And is pushing forward with the Bakerloo Line extension. And deals with threats to his life from various extremists that mean he needs 24hr police protection while being the leading Muslim politician in Europe. He gets my vote.

    Khan’s Tory opponents are so shambolic that I don’t think he needs to worry about anything.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,031

    Nigelb said:

    Is he really running for the Democratic nomination ?

    RFK Jr. argues gun control cannot ‘meaningfully’ reduce gun violence
    https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/4072813-rfk-jr-argues-gun-control-cannot-meaningfully-reduce-gun-violence/

    RFK Jr. won’t commit to supporting Biden if he loses primary
    https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/4072758-rfk-jr-wont-commit-to-supporting-biden-if-he-loses-primary/

    RFK Jr.: ‘I’m proud that President Trump likes me’
    https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/4072768-rfk-jr-im-proud-that-president-trump-likes-me/

    He is but there is a good chance he runs as an independent candidate (although it is not that easy in absence of a formal party).
    There’s so many moving parts in the Presidential races this year, it’s hard to keep up. The Democrats are doing everything they can do make Biden the nominee by default, despite the obvious issues, and the Republicans are doing everything they can do avoid their nominee being Trump again.

    Kennedy is an interestest character, he goes from being a seemingly normal Democrat candidate, to some very extreme views, from one minute to the next. He’s doing a lot of long-form interviews and podcasts, so there is an awful lot of material out there - if not on YouTube, who are going around deleting a lot of it, which leads to all sorts of other questions around freedom of speech for a candidate. It’s not difficult to imagine both Trump and Kennedy running as independents.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,256
    In the finest traditions of PB pedantry.

    Brilliant by @RhonddaBryant on
    @BBCr4today calling out the R4 presenters discussing the Privileges Committee & referring to Boris Johnson's 'jeremiad'. Chris Bryant corrected them by saying that Jeremiah told the truth so this couldn't be used in relation to Johnson!

    https://twitter.com/StuartHarriso10/status/1674303842454839298
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,260
    edited June 2023
    Morning all.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12245685/Fears-grow-four-water-firms-Thames-Water-teeters-brink-collapse.html

    Fears are growing for four more water firms as Thames Water teeters on the brink of collapse with contingency plans reportedly being made to nationalise swathes of Britain's water industry.

    Ministers have looked to allay fears around the impact of Thames Water potentially going under as the regulator vowed to work with the sector to deal with its debt levels.

    Work and Pensions Secretary Mel Stride said there were 'contingency plans in place for any eventuality' as Thames Water battles to finance the £14 billion of debt on its books following interest rate rises.

    It comes as several reports suggested concerns about Thames Water's finances had now broadened to other firms in the industry.

    The financial health of up to four other English water companies is being monitored, according to reports.

    These include Southern Water which serves 2.6million people and Yorkshire Water with 5million customers, it is understood.

    The Times cited a Whitehall source as saying: 'A lot of these companies are highly geared and struggling.

    'There is a worst case scenario where other companies end up in the same place as Thames Water.'

  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,972

    It would appear that Mad Nads will be found in contempt of parliament later today. That may change the dynamic. Also in need of change is that various people proffered gongs in the Boris! Dishonours list will also be found in contempt of parliament - at least Mogg and Clarke off top of my head.

    This one is pretty simple - anyone who committed contempt of parliament should have their stupid title cancelled. There can be no reward for that kind of behaviour, especially if (when?) the committee proposes sanctions.

    Good morning

    You are correct but does anyone really think anything will change

    I see Sunak has guaranteed the triple lock and will include it in the conservative manifesto and predictably Starmer has affirmed the same commitment to the triple lock

    We have another 18 months of this and frankly I doubt anything much will change with PM Starmer
    .
    The country is in decline. Public services run down or absent. Visible dirt and decay and litter because councils can't afford to employ enough staff and people have stopped caring. Vast public debt and record peacetime taxes to pay for these non-services.

    Fixing that, and giving people a brighter future, is not something where a new government can wave a magic wand. So you are right that change in the substance will be slow.

    What will change rapidly is the grift an corruption will stop. No more billions in public money stolen from us and handed to Tory donors and patrons. No more gross incompetence and uncaring sneering when people across the social demographic complain about bills / fuel / mortgages / food etc. No more illegal policies written in crayon aimed at people who don't see a problem with golliwogs.

    I like you will not vote for Starmer's Labour. But I will rejoice when the Tories get smashed as surely now is their fate.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,246
    Sadiq Khan is right to fear "Susan", whoever she is. She looks utterly terrifying. "You are safer with Susan" is presumably a threat, not reassurance.


  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,256
    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    Is he really running for the Democratic nomination ?

    RFK Jr. argues gun control cannot ‘meaningfully’ reduce gun violence
    https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/4072813-rfk-jr-argues-gun-control-cannot-meaningfully-reduce-gun-violence/

    RFK Jr. won’t commit to supporting Biden if he loses primary
    https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/4072758-rfk-jr-wont-commit-to-supporting-biden-if-he-loses-primary/

    RFK Jr.: ‘I’m proud that President Trump likes me’
    https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/4072768-rfk-jr-im-proud-that-president-trump-likes-me/

    He is but there is a good chance he runs as an independent candidate (although it is not that easy in absence of a formal party).
    There’s so many moving parts in the Presidential races this year, it’s hard to keep up. The Democrats are doing everything they can do make Biden the nominee by default, despite the obvious issues, and the Republicans are doing everything they can do avoid their nominee being Trump again.

    Kennedy is an interestest character, he goes from being a seemingly normal Democrat candidate, to some very extreme views, from one minute to the next. He’s doing a lot of long-form interviews and podcasts, so there is an awful lot of material out there - if not on YouTube, who are going around deleting a lot of it, which leads to all sorts of other questions around freedom of speech for a candidate. It’s not difficult to imagine both Trump and Kennedy running as independents.
    In what way does he seem like a 'normal Democrat' ?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 49,144

    It would appear that Mad Nads will be found in contempt of parliament later today. That may change the dynamic. Also in need of change is that various people proffered gongs in the Boris! Dishonours list will also be found in contempt of parliament - at least Mogg and Clarke off top of my head.

    This one is pretty simple - anyone who committed contempt of parliament should have their stupid title cancelled. There can be no reward for that kind of behaviour, especially if (when?) the committee proposes sanctions.

    Good morning

    You are correct but does anyone really think anything will change

    I see Sunak has guaranteed the triple lock and will include it in the conservative manifesto and predictably Starmer has affirmed the same commitment to the triple lock

    We have another 18 months of this and frankly I doubt anything much will change with PM Starmer
    .
    The country is in decline. Public services run down or absent. Visible dirt and decay and litter because councils can't afford to employ enough staff and people have stopped caring. Vast public debt and record peacetime taxes to pay for these non-services.

    Fixing that, and giving people a brighter future, is not something where a new government can wave a magic wand. So you are right that change in the substance will be slow.

    What will change rapidly is the grift an corruption will stop. No more billions in public money stolen from us and handed to Tory donors and patrons. No more gross incompetence and uncaring sneering when people across the social demographic complain about bills / fuel / mortgages / food etc. No more illegal policies written in crayon aimed at people who don't see a problem with golliwogs.

    I like you will not vote for Starmer's Labour. But I will rejoice when the Tories get smashed as surely now is their fate.
    We just have "to hold our nerve" it seems.

    Whatever that means.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,769
    FF43 said:

    Sadiq Khan is right to fear "Susan", whoever she is. She looks utterly terrifying. "You are safer with Susan" is presumably a threat, not reassurance.


    She looks like Polly Toynbee after she's had a few.
  • MiklosvarMiklosvar Posts: 1,855

    Morning all.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12245685/Fears-grow-four-water-firms-Thames-Water-teeters-brink-collapse.html

    Fears are growing for four more water firms as Thames Water teeters on the brink of collapse with contingency plans reportedly being made to nationalise swathes of Britain's water industry.

    Ministers have looked to allay fears around the impact of Thames Water potentially going under as the regulator vowed to work with the sector to deal with its debt levels.

    Work and Pensions Secretary Mel Stride said there were 'contingency plans in place for any eventuality' as Thames Water battles to finance the £14 billion of debt on its books following interest rate rises.

    It comes as several reports suggested concerns about Thames Water's finances had now broadened to other firms in the industry.

    The financial health of up to four other English water companies is being monitored, according to reports.

    These include Southern Water which serves 2.6million people and Yorkshire Water with 5million customers, it is understood.


    The Times cited a Whitehall source as saying: 'A lot of these companies are highly geared and struggling.

    'There is a worst case scenario where other companies end up in the same place as Thames Water.'

    it seems Macquarie who baled out of Thames a while back, baled back in again to Southern Water 2 years ago.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,498
    ClippP said:

    Yesterday, there was comment on PB about the House of Commons taking action against those MPs - Boris Johnson defenders - who had attacked the Priviledges Committee for its criticism of the said Johnson. There was talk about the possibility of their suspension for a number of days.

    I wonder if the House of Commons will suspend the disruptive Conservative MPs long enough for their constituents to be able to go for a recall. And if that should happen, in how many seats would the constituents be motivated to back a recall. And if they did in some seats, whether they might feel inclined to dispose of Mad Nad, who doesn't seem to be doing anything useful these days.

    Just a thought.

    I am a bit nervous about a parliamentary committee suspending MPs for 'attacking' the committee. In this case it *may* be justified, but such a precedent would be very, very easy to abuse.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,972
    FF43 said:

    Sadiq Khan is right to fear "Susan", whoever she is. She looks utterly terrifying. "You are safer with Susan" is presumably a threat, not reassurance.


    Is being a pro-Trumper such a sensible or "safe" position?
    https://twitter.com/Councillorsuzie/status/1323897567026008064
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,256

    Morning all.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12245685/Fears-grow-four-water-firms-Thames-Water-teeters-brink-collapse.html

    Fears are growing for four more water firms as Thames Water teeters on the brink of collapse with contingency plans reportedly being made to nationalise swathes of Britain's water industry.

    Ministers have looked to allay fears around the impact of Thames Water potentially going under as the regulator vowed to work with the sector to deal with its debt levels.

    Work and Pensions Secretary Mel Stride said there were 'contingency plans in place for any eventuality' as Thames Water battles to finance the £14 billion of debt on its books following interest rate rises.

    It comes as several reports suggested concerns about Thames Water's finances had now broadened to other firms in the industry.

    The financial health of up to four other English water companies is being monitored, according to reports.

    These include Southern Water which serves 2.6million people and Yorkshire Water with 5million customers, it is understood.

    The Times cited a Whitehall source as saying: 'A lot of these companies are highly geared and struggling.

    'There is a worst case scenario where other companies end up in the same place as Thames Water.'

    It's not particularly easy to get a good picture of the extent of the problems as the most recent published Ofwat financial stability report is for 2021/22, before the interest rate hit.
  • MiklosvarMiklosvar Posts: 1,855
    ydoethur said:

    FF43 said:

    Sadiq Khan is right to fear "Susan", whoever she is. She looks utterly terrifying. "You are safer with Susan" is presumably a threat, not reassurance.


    She looks like Polly Toynbee after she's had a few.
    She looks absolutely terrified. like that bit in SOTL where Agent Starling says "FBI, you're safe."

    I think that is the most inept political poster I have ever seen.

    She is Susan Hall, apparently, a tory hopeful.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,557
    ydoethur said:

    FF43 said:

    Sadiq Khan is right to fear "Susan", whoever she is. She looks utterly terrifying. "You are safer with Susan" is presumably a threat, not reassurance.


    She looks like Polly Toynbee after she's had a few.
    Or Ed Stourton in drag.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,778
    FF43 said:

    Sadiq Khan is right to fear "Susan", whoever she is. She looks utterly terrifying. "You are safer with Susan" is presumably a threat, not reassurance.


    The tories have completely lost the fucking plot. They've cracked.


  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,246

    Morning all.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12245685/Fears-grow-four-water-firms-Thames-Water-teeters-brink-collapse.html

    Fears are growing for four more water firms as Thames Water teeters on the brink of collapse with contingency plans reportedly being made to nationalise swathes of Britain's water industry.

    Ministers have looked to allay fears around the impact of Thames Water potentially going under as the regulator vowed to work with the sector to deal with its debt levels.

    Work and Pensions Secretary Mel Stride said there were 'contingency plans in place for any eventuality' as Thames Water battles to finance the £14 billion of debt on its books following interest rate rises.

    It comes as several reports suggested concerns about Thames Water's finances had now broadened to other firms in the industry.

    The financial health of up to four other English water companies is being monitored, according to reports.

    These include Southern Water which serves 2.6million people and Yorkshire Water with 5million customers, it is understood.

    The Times cited a Whitehall source as saying: 'A lot of these companies are highly geared and struggling.

    'There is a worst case scenario where other companies end up in the same place as Thames Water.'

    As well as being an inherently misconceived idea the privatised water companies have been appallingly regulated. No wonder they took advantage of it.

    Been looking into the still state owned Scottish Water, which seems to be well run, providing water services at a lower cost, while investing more. People of England and Wales read this and weep:

    https://www.scottishwater.co.uk/-/media/ScottishWater/Document-Hub/Key-Publications/Annual-Reports/210722SCW2204AnnualReport2022AWNonRestricted_V3.pdf
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 23,156
    Foxy said:

    It would appear that Mad Nads will be found in contempt of parliament later today. That may change the dynamic. Also in need of change is that various people proffered gongs in the Boris! Dishonours list will also be found in contempt of parliament - at least Mogg and Clarke off top of my head.

    This one is pretty simple - anyone who committed contempt of parliament should have their stupid title cancelled. There can be no reward for that kind of behaviour, especially if (when?) the committee proposes sanctions.

    Good morning

    You are correct but does anyone really think anything will change

    I see Sunak has guaranteed the triple lock and will include it in the conservative manifesto and predictably Starmer has affirmed the same commitment to the triple lock

    We have another 18 months of this and frankly I doubt anything much will change with PM Starmer
    .
    The country is in decline. Public services run down or absent. Visible dirt and decay and litter because councils can't afford to employ enough staff and people have stopped caring. Vast public debt and record peacetime taxes to pay for these non-services.

    Fixing that, and giving people a brighter future, is not something where a new government can wave a magic wand. So you are right that change in the substance will be slow.

    What will change rapidly is the grift an corruption will stop. No more billions in public money stolen from us and handed to Tory donors and patrons. No more gross incompetence and uncaring sneering when people across the social demographic complain about bills / fuel / mortgages / food etc. No more illegal policies written in crayon aimed at people who don't see a problem with golliwogs.

    I like you will not vote for Starmer's Labour. But I will rejoice when the Tories get smashed as surely now is their fate.
    We just have "to hold our nerve" it seems.

    Whatever that means.
    It means not ask for pay rises, or expect decent housing, to ensure that the standard of living for the retired and top level managers can continue to rise unabated.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 49,144
    Nigelb said:

    Morning all.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12245685/Fears-grow-four-water-firms-Thames-Water-teeters-brink-collapse.html

    Fears are growing for four more water firms as Thames Water teeters on the brink of collapse with contingency plans reportedly being made to nationalise swathes of Britain's water industry.

    Ministers have looked to allay fears around the impact of Thames Water potentially going under as the regulator vowed to work with the sector to deal with its debt levels.

    Work and Pensions Secretary Mel Stride said there were 'contingency plans in place for any eventuality' as Thames Water battles to finance the £14 billion of debt on its books following interest rate rises.

    It comes as several reports suggested concerns about Thames Water's finances had now broadened to other firms in the industry.

    The financial health of up to four other English water companies is being monitored, according to reports.

    These include Southern Water which serves 2.6million people and Yorkshire Water with 5million customers, it is understood.

    The Times cited a Whitehall source as saying: 'A lot of these companies are highly geared and struggling.

    'There is a worst case scenario where other companies end up in the same place as Thames Water.'

    It's not particularly easy to get a good picture of the extent of the problems as the most recent published Ofwat financial stability report is for 2021/22, before the interest rate hit.
    Presumably the water utilities are not the only zombie companies loaded with debt that they will struggle to finance at higher interest rates.

    This zombie government too, for that matter.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,769

    It would appear that Mad Nads will be found in contempt of parliament later today. That may change the dynamic. Also in need of change is that various people proffered gongs in the Boris! Dishonours list will also be found in contempt of parliament - at least Mogg and Clarke off top of my head.

    This one is pretty simple - anyone who committed contempt of parliament should have their stupid title cancelled. There can be no reward for that kind of behaviour, especially if (when?) the committee proposes sanctions.

    Good morning

    You are correct but does anyone really think anything will change

    I see Sunak has guaranteed the triple lock and will include it in the conservative manifesto and predictably Starmer has affirmed the same commitment to the triple lock

    We have another 18 months of this and frankly I doubt anything much will change with PM Starmer
    .
    The country is in decline. Public services run down or absent. Visible dirt and decay and litter because councils can't afford to employ enough staff and people have stopped caring. Vast public debt and record peacetime taxes to pay for these non-services.

    Fixing that, and giving people a brighter future, is not something where a new government can wave a magic wand. So you are right that change in the substance will be slow.

    What will change rapidly is the grift an corruption will stop. No more billions in public money stolen from us and handed to Tory donors and patrons. No more gross incompetence and uncaring sneering when people across the social demographic complain about bills / fuel / mortgages / food etc. No more illegal policies written in crayon aimed at people who don't see a problem with golliwogs.

    I like you will not vote for Starmer's Labour. But I will rejoice when the Tories get smashed as surely now is their fate.
    I hope you're right, but the Blair years actually suggest that corruption and graft could be worse under Labour.

    As for the rest - well, the shadow cabinet doesn't fill me with confidence about their competence or their charm. Remember Lucy Powell? 'In the real world where I live, unlike you...' Plus, they will be deep in hock to a Civil Service that seems to have the joint intellectual capacity of an imbecile and the integrity of a Goebbels.

    What they will be is different. And that's important if our system is to survive at all.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,468

    I see from the last thread that Sadiq Khan is being accused of doing nothing as well as of introducing an unprecedented assault on the rights of drivers of really dirty old cars. It really can't be both.
    Within the narrow confines of the Mayor of London job, and the deliberately mean financial constraints imposed by central government, Khan is doing a good job. He's certainly out-performing his utterly useless and corrupt predecessor. He's not thrown money away on a pointless garden bridge to nowhere, he's not thrown money at a too expensive to run retro bus design, and unlike Johnson who cancelled a crucial Thames river crossing in the east he is building one. Oh, and he's overseen the biggest expansion in council housing since the 1970s as well as bravely taking on vested interests to improve London's fatally bad air quality. And is pushing forward with the Bakerloo Line extension. And deals with threats to his life from various extremists that mean he needs 24hr police protection while being the leading Muslim politician in Europe. He gets my vote.

    Depends what you think a Mayor is for, and there are two views on that. One is the one @Leon was talking about last night- to be Mr London (or wherever), bang the drum for the city and be the pole of unity for the population. It's not a wrong view, though it's more a thing on the right. We like our leaders to lead.

    The other is the one to get nitty gritty things done. Realistic plans and schemes to improve lives.

    Boris, whatever was wrong about him (and was wrong at the time) was a damn good Mayor of the first sort. Sadiq is good on the second front but not the first. Nothing wrong with that- my distant impression is that Andy Street does the same sort of thing with a blue tint in the West Midlands.

    Really good Mayors manage both. Prime Ken did it, Andy Burnham seems similar. Steve Norris might well have been the same. Part of the problem for London Conservatives is that they seem bent on choosing a candidate who does neither.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,972
    Foxy said:

    It would appear that Mad Nads will be found in contempt of parliament later today. That may change the dynamic. Also in need of change is that various people proffered gongs in the Boris! Dishonours list will also be found in contempt of parliament - at least Mogg and Clarke off top of my head.

    This one is pretty simple - anyone who committed contempt of parliament should have their stupid title cancelled. There can be no reward for that kind of behaviour, especially if (when?) the committee proposes sanctions.

    Good morning

    You are correct but does anyone really think anything will change

    I see Sunak has guaranteed the triple lock and will include it in the conservative manifesto and predictably Starmer has affirmed the same commitment to the triple lock

    We have another 18 months of this and frankly I doubt anything much will change with PM Starmer
    .
    The country is in decline. Public services run down or absent. Visible dirt and decay and litter because councils can't afford to employ enough staff and people have stopped caring. Vast public debt and record peacetime taxes to pay for these non-services.

    Fixing that, and giving people a brighter future, is not something where a new government can wave a magic wand. So you are right that change in the substance will be slow.

    What will change rapidly is the grift an corruption will stop. No more billions in public money stolen from us and handed to Tory donors and patrons. No more gross incompetence and uncaring sneering when people across the social demographic complain about bills / fuel / mortgages / food etc. No more illegal policies written in crayon aimed at people who don't see a problem with golliwogs.

    I like you will not vote for Starmer's Labour. But I will rejoice when the Tories get smashed as surely now is their fate.
    We just have "to hold our nerve" it seems.

    Whatever that means.
    Tories plan to fight a scorched earth election because they have nothing left. Attempts so far to either whip up a culture war (eek! ladycock!) or make Starmer look like a bad'un (eek! A donkey delivering a curry!) have failed spectacularly. Attempts to persuade people that sky is green (Labour would put up taxes / get us in debt / fail to Stop The Boats) have crashed even harder.

    The plan was take the pain in 2023, fix the economy and services, get inflation and migration down and then say "look, we're delivering". The only minor problem being they are failing on every measure given by Sunak as the so-called people's priorities.

    So they have only one tactic left - political "violence". The right wing hate mob (Express / Mail / GBeebies etc) will put out the most outrageous and extreme stories - Labour will kill the firstborn male child in every household AND steal your pension to give it to asylum seekers kind of thing.

    Like in the Currygate fandango, they will create a lie, repeat it every day to draw in the weak minded and stupid to hopefully say "well there must be *something* bad here because they're still talking about it". But not curry, worse. The only positive being that I expect the target will be so wide of the mark that it will be laughed at rather than effective.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,672

    It would appear that Mad Nads will be found in contempt of parliament later today. That may change the dynamic. Also in need of change is that various people proffered gongs in the Boris! Dishonours list will also be found in contempt of parliament - at least Mogg and Clarke off top of my head.

    This one is pretty simple - anyone who committed contempt of parliament should have their stupid title cancelled. There can be no reward for that kind of behaviour, especially if (when?) the committee proposes sanctions.

    Good morning

    You are correct but does anyone really think anything will change

    I see Sunak has guaranteed the triple lock and will include it in the conservative manifesto and predictably Starmer has affirmed the same commitment to the triple lock

    We have another 18 months of this and frankly I doubt anything much will change with PM Starmer
    .
    The country is in decline. Public services run down or absent. Visible dirt and decay and litter because councils can't afford to employ enough staff and people have stopped caring. Vast public debt and record peacetime taxes to pay for these non-services.

    Fixing that, and giving people a brighter future, is not something where a new government can wave a magic wand. So you are right that change in the substance will be slow.

    What will change rapidly is the grift an corruption will stop. No more billions in public money stolen from us and handed to Tory donors and patrons. No more gross incompetence and uncaring sneering when people across the social demographic complain about bills / fuel / mortgages / food etc. No more illegal policies written in crayon aimed at people who don't see a problem with golliwogs.

    I like you will not vote for Starmer's Labour. But I will rejoice when the Tories get smashed as surely now is their fate.
    The Tory pitch at the next election will be: “It would be even worse under Labour.” A general sense of total hopelessness helps with that. If no-one thinks things can get better, the contest is about who can manage relentless decline better. That argument favours the incumbent because it is a known product. Labour’s job is not only to ensure that the Tories are held to account for their disastrous rule, but also to persuade voters that it doesn’t have to be this way, things can get better.

  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,657

    It would appear that Mad Nads will be found in contempt of parliament later today. That may change the dynamic. Also in need of change is that various people proffered gongs in the Boris! Dishonours list will also be found in contempt of parliament - at least Mogg and Clarke off top of my head.

    This one is pretty simple - anyone who committed contempt of parliament should have their stupid title cancelled. There can be no reward for that kind of behaviour, especially if (when?) the committee proposes sanctions.

    Good morning

    You are correct but does anyone really think anything will change

    I see Sunak has guaranteed the triple lock and will include it in the conservative manifesto and predictably Starmer has affirmed the same commitment to the triple lock

    We have another 18 months of this and frankly I doubt anything much will change with PM Starmer
    .
    The country is in decline. Public services run down or absent. Visible dirt and decay and litter because councils can't afford to employ enough staff and people have stopped caring. Vast public debt and record peacetime taxes to pay for these non-services.

    Fixing that, and giving people a brighter future, is not something where a new government can wave a magic wand. So you are right that change in the substance will be slow.

    What will change rapidly is the grift an corruption will stop. No more billions in public money stolen from us and handed to Tory donors and patrons. No more gross incompetence and uncaring sneering when people across the social demographic complain about bills / fuel / mortgages / food etc. No more illegal policies written in crayon aimed at people who don't see a problem with golliwogs.

    I like you will not vote for Starmer's Labour. But I will rejoice when the Tories get smashed as surely now is their fate.
    Hard to disagree to be fair though gross incompetence is not the sole preserve of the conservative party as time will tell
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,516
    Miklosvar said:

    Morning all.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12245685/Fears-grow-four-water-firms-Thames-Water-teeters-brink-collapse.html

    Fears are growing for four more water firms as Thames Water teeters on the brink of collapse with contingency plans reportedly being made to nationalise swathes of Britain's water industry.

    Ministers have looked to allay fears around the impact of Thames Water potentially going under as the regulator vowed to work with the sector to deal with its debt levels.

    Work and Pensions Secretary Mel Stride said there were 'contingency plans in place for any eventuality' as Thames Water battles to finance the £14 billion of debt on its books following interest rate rises.

    It comes as several reports suggested concerns about Thames Water's finances had now broadened to other firms in the industry.

    The financial health of up to four other English water companies is being monitored, according to reports.

    These include Southern Water which serves 2.6million people and Yorkshire Water with 5million customers, it is understood.


    The Times cited a Whitehall source as saying: 'A lot of these companies are highly geared and struggling.

    'There is a worst case scenario where other companies end up in the same place as Thames Water.'

    it seems Macquarie who baled out of Thames a while back, baled back in again to Southern Water 2 years ago.
    Southern is a shambles
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,672
    FF43 said:

    Sadiq Khan is right to fear "Susan", whoever she is. She looks utterly terrifying. "You are safer with Susan" is presumably a threat, not reassurance.


    She backed Boris and Brexit, shilled for Trump and hailed the Truss budget. I am not sure you could find someone more out of step with majority opinion in London. It would be an interesting choice, to say the least. But given how the party has hollowed out and moved to the right since 2019, she probably represents what a lot of Tory candidates are going to be like in the coming years.

  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 23,156
    edited June 2023

    It would appear that Mad Nads will be found in contempt of parliament later today. That may change the dynamic. Also in need of change is that various people proffered gongs in the Boris! Dishonours list will also be found in contempt of parliament - at least Mogg and Clarke off top of my head.

    This one is pretty simple - anyone who committed contempt of parliament should have their stupid title cancelled. There can be no reward for that kind of behaviour, especially if (when?) the committee proposes sanctions.

    Good morning

    You are correct but does anyone really think anything will change

    I see Sunak has guaranteed the triple lock and will include it in the conservative manifesto and predictably Starmer has affirmed the same commitment to the triple lock

    We have another 18 months of this and frankly I doubt anything much will change with PM Starmer
    .
    The country is in decline. Public services run down or absent. Visible dirt and decay and litter because councils can't afford to employ enough staff and people have stopped caring. Vast public debt and record peacetime taxes to pay for these non-services.

    Fixing that, and giving people a brighter future, is not something where a new government can wave a magic wand. So you are right that change in the substance will be slow.

    What will change rapidly is the grift an corruption will stop. No more billions in public money stolen from us and handed to Tory donors and patrons. No more gross incompetence and uncaring sneering when people across the social demographic complain about bills / fuel / mortgages / food etc. No more illegal policies written in crayon aimed at people who don't see a problem with golliwogs.

    I like you will not vote for Starmer's Labour. But I will rejoice when the Tories get smashed as surely now is their fate.
    Hard to disagree to be fair though gross incompetence is not the sole preserve of the conservative party as time will tell
    Not sole preserve, but they would be contenders in the Olympics if Gross Incompetence was introduced as a sport.

    I don't have much faith in Labour either, but they will be a fair bit better or "less bad", and equally importantly it is part of making the Tories better again, which will probably take 10 years now as too many of the sensibles have left or been kicked out since 2015.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,106

    She backed Boris and Brexit, shilled for Trump and hailed the Truss budget. ...she probably represents what a lot of Tory candidates are going to be like in the coming years.

    Why not stand as UKIP and be done with it
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,779

    FF43 said:

    Sadiq Khan is right to fear "Susan", whoever she is. She looks utterly terrifying. "You are safer with Susan" is presumably a threat, not reassurance.


    She backed Boris and Brexit, shilled for Trump and hailed the Truss budget. I am not sure you could find someone more out of step with majority opinion in London. It would be an interesting choice, to say the least. But given how the party has hollowed out and moved to the right since 2019, she probably represents what a lot of Tory candidates are going to be like in the coming years.

    Especially after they merge with ReFuk and ReClaim.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,468
    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    Morning all.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12245685/Fears-grow-four-water-firms-Thames-Water-teeters-brink-collapse.html

    Fears are growing for four more water firms as Thames Water teeters on the brink of collapse with contingency plans reportedly being made to nationalise swathes of Britain's water industry.

    Ministers have looked to allay fears around the impact of Thames Water potentially going under as the regulator vowed to work with the sector to deal with its debt levels.

    Work and Pensions Secretary Mel Stride said there were 'contingency plans in place for any eventuality' as Thames Water battles to finance the £14 billion of debt on its books following interest rate rises.

    It comes as several reports suggested concerns about Thames Water's finances had now broadened to other firms in the industry.

    The financial health of up to four other English water companies is being monitored, according to reports.

    These include Southern Water which serves 2.6million people and Yorkshire Water with 5million customers, it is understood.

    The Times cited a Whitehall source as saying: 'A lot of these companies are highly geared and struggling.

    'There is a worst case scenario where other companies end up in the same place as Thames Water.'

    It's not particularly easy to get a good picture of the extent of the problems as the most recent published Ofwat financial stability report is for 2021/22, before the interest rate hit.
    Presumably the water utilities are not the only zombie companies loaded with debt that they will struggle to finance at higher interest rates.

    This zombie government too, for that matter.
    Provincial science master here, but is there a fundamental parallel between what the owners of these utilities seem to have done (borrow a load of money to buy an income stream without really investing in the underlying business) and what BTL mortgage holders have done?
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 23,156
    In another wtf observation, South Koreans will be up to two years younger than last week.....

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-66028606
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,468

    It would appear that Mad Nads will be found in contempt of parliament later today. That may change the dynamic. Also in need of change is that various people proffered gongs in the Boris! Dishonours list will also be found in contempt of parliament - at least Mogg and Clarke off top of my head.

    This one is pretty simple - anyone who committed contempt of parliament should have their stupid title cancelled. There can be no reward for that kind of behaviour, especially if (when?) the committee proposes sanctions.

    Good morning

    You are correct but does anyone really think anything will change

    I see Sunak has guaranteed the triple lock and will include it in the conservative manifesto and predictably Starmer has affirmed the same commitment to the triple lock

    We have another 18 months of this and frankly I doubt anything much will change with PM Starmer
    .
    The country is in decline. Public services run down or absent. Visible dirt and decay and litter because councils can't afford to employ enough staff and people have stopped caring. Vast public debt and record peacetime taxes to pay for these non-services.

    Fixing that, and giving people a brighter future, is not something where a new government can wave a magic wand. So you are right that change in the substance will be slow.

    What will change rapidly is the grift an corruption will stop. No more billions in public money stolen from us and handed to Tory donors and patrons. No more gross incompetence and uncaring sneering when people across the social demographic complain about bills / fuel / mortgages / food etc. No more illegal policies written in crayon aimed at people who don't see a problem with golliwogs.

    I like you will not vote for Starmer's Labour. But I will rejoice when the Tories get smashed as surely now is their fate.
    Hard to disagree to be fair though gross incompetence is not the sole preserve of the conservative party as time will tell
    It's not, but even a reversion to normal levels of competence and graft will be a meaningful improvement on the status quo.

    That's what's so infuriating about the Conservatives right now.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 49,144

    It would appear that Mad Nads will be found in contempt of parliament later today. That may change the dynamic. Also in need of change is that various people proffered gongs in the Boris! Dishonours list will also be found in contempt of parliament - at least Mogg and Clarke off top of my head.

    This one is pretty simple - anyone who committed contempt of parliament should have their stupid title cancelled. There can be no reward for that kind of behaviour, especially if (when?) the committee proposes sanctions.

    Good morning

    You are correct but does anyone really think anything will change

    I see Sunak has guaranteed the triple lock and will include it in the conservative manifesto and predictably Starmer has affirmed the same commitment to the triple lock

    We have another 18 months of this and frankly I doubt anything much will change with PM Starmer
    .
    The country is in decline. Public services run down or absent. Visible dirt and decay and litter because councils can't afford to employ enough staff and people have stopped caring. Vast public debt and record peacetime taxes to pay for these non-services.

    Fixing that, and giving people a brighter future, is not something where a new government can wave a magic wand. So you are right that change in the substance will be slow.

    What will change rapidly is the grift an corruption will stop. No more billions in public money stolen from us and handed to Tory donors and patrons. No more gross incompetence and uncaring sneering when people across the social demographic complain about bills / fuel / mortgages / food etc. No more illegal policies written in crayon aimed at people who don't see a problem with golliwogs.

    I like you will not vote for Starmer's Labour. But I will rejoice when the Tories get smashed as surely now is their fate.
    The Tory pitch at the next election will be: “It would be even worse under Labour.” A general sense of total hopelessness helps with that. If no-one thinks things can get better, the contest is about who can manage relentless decline better. That argument favours the incumbent because it is a known product. Labour’s job is not only to ensure that the Tories are held to account for their disastrous rule, but also to persuade voters that it doesn’t have to be this way, things can get better.

    Hopelessness and despair in Frome:

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/jun/28/despair-britons-hopeful-john-harris-society-politics

    "Now, I hear echoes of the weariness and bafflement I used to associate with the post-industrial places whose furies took us out of the EU, but this time in our market towns and suburbs. I worry about that. I think we all should."

    Levelling down in action.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 49,144

    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    Morning all.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12245685/Fears-grow-four-water-firms-Thames-Water-teeters-brink-collapse.html

    Fears are growing for four more water firms as Thames Water teeters on the brink of collapse with contingency plans reportedly being made to nationalise swathes of Britain's water industry.

    Ministers have looked to allay fears around the impact of Thames Water potentially going under as the regulator vowed to work with the sector to deal with its debt levels.

    Work and Pensions Secretary Mel Stride said there were 'contingency plans in place for any eventuality' as Thames Water battles to finance the £14 billion of debt on its books following interest rate rises.

    It comes as several reports suggested concerns about Thames Water's finances had now broadened to other firms in the industry.

    The financial health of up to four other English water companies is being monitored, according to reports.

    These include Southern Water which serves 2.6million people and Yorkshire Water with 5million customers, it is understood.

    The Times cited a Whitehall source as saying: 'A lot of these companies are highly geared and struggling.

    'There is a worst case scenario where other companies end up in the same place as Thames Water.'

    It's not particularly easy to get a good picture of the extent of the problems as the most recent published Ofwat financial stability report is for 2021/22, before the interest rate hit.
    Presumably the water utilities are not the only zombie companies loaded with debt that they will struggle to finance at higher interest rates.

    This zombie government too, for that matter.
    Provincial science master here, but is there a fundamental parallel between what the owners of these utilities seem to have done (borrow a load of money to buy an income stream without really investing in the underlying business) and what BTL mortgage holders have done?
    Yes, a lot of people got used to cheap money and based their economic model on debt. Those days are over. Take note Labour.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,505
    ydoethur said:

    Honestly, Dorries. An arrogant wannabe posh women who doesn’t know the price of a peerage.

    Thick as mince to boot, what a combination.

    Foxy said:

    It would appear that Mad Nads will be found in contempt of parliament later today. That may change the dynamic. Also in need of change is that various people proffered gongs in the Boris! Dishonours list will also be found in contempt of parliament - at least Mogg and Clarke off top of my head.

    This one is pretty simple - anyone who committed contempt of parliament should have their stupid title cancelled. There can be no reward for that kind of behaviour, especially if (when?) the committee proposes sanctions.

    Good morning

    You are correct but does anyone really think anything will change

    I see Sunak has guaranteed the triple lock and will include it in the conservative manifesto and predictably Starmer has affirmed the same commitment to the triple lock

    We have another 18 months of this and frankly I doubt anything much will change with PM Starmer
    .
    The country is in decline. Public services run down or absent. Visible dirt and decay and litter because councils can't afford to employ enough staff and people have stopped caring. Vast public debt and record peacetime taxes to pay for these non-services.

    Fixing that, and giving people a brighter future, is not something where a new government can wave a magic wand. So you are right that change in the substance will be slow.

    What will change rapidly is the grift an corruption will stop. No more billions in public money stolen from us and handed to Tory donors and patrons. No more gross incompetence and uncaring sneering when people across the social demographic complain about bills / fuel / mortgages / food etc. No more illegal policies written in crayon aimed at people who don't see a problem with golliwogs.

    I like you will not vote for Starmer's Labour. But I will rejoice when the Tories get smashed as surely now is their fate.
    We just have "to hold our nerve" it seems.

    Whatever that means.
    It means not ask for pay rises, or expect decent housing, to ensure that the standard of living for the retired and top level managers can continue to rise unabated.
    I never fail to be amazed at the idiots on here fixated on pensioners. Given they are on fixed incomes with a crap £9K state pension that even with inflation increase would not enable you to live how do you greedy grasping ignorant arseholes think they are all living in luxury. All their costs are rising same as you fcukwit and they pay the same tax as you fcukwit. A few will have bigger houses and therefore far higher housing and utiklity bills than you fcukwit. Go and get a better job and stop whining.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,972
    edited June 2023

    It would appear that Mad Nads will be found in contempt of parliament later today. That may change the dynamic. Also in need of change is that various people proffered gongs in the Boris! Dishonours list will also be found in contempt of parliament - at least Mogg and Clarke off top of my head.

    This one is pretty simple - anyone who committed contempt of parliament should have their stupid title cancelled. There can be no reward for that kind of behaviour, especially if (when?) the committee proposes sanctions.

    Good morning

    You are correct but does anyone really think anything will change

    I see Sunak has guaranteed the triple lock and will include it in the conservative manifesto and predictably Starmer has affirmed the same commitment to the triple lock

    We have another 18 months of this and frankly I doubt anything much will change with PM Starmer
    .
    The country is in decline. Public services run down or absent. Visible dirt and decay and litter because councils can't afford to employ enough staff and people have stopped caring. Vast public debt and record peacetime taxes to pay for these non-services.

    Fixing that, and giving people a brighter future, is not something where a new government can wave a magic wand. So you are right that change in the substance will be slow.

    What will change rapidly is the grift an corruption will stop. No more billions in public money stolen from us and handed to Tory donors and patrons. No more gross incompetence and uncaring sneering when people across the social demographic complain about bills / fuel / mortgages / food etc. No more illegal policies written in crayon aimed at people who don't see a problem with golliwogs.

    I like you will not vote for Starmer's Labour. But I will rejoice when the Tories get smashed as surely now is their fate.
    Hard to disagree to be fair though gross incompetence is not the sole preserve of the conservative party as time will tell
    All parties, all governments screw some things up. But this lot take the biscuit. Hard to think of anything they are doing right. And the arrogance of them in insisting they are right and everyone else is wrong.

    This latter point is why I expect the election to be such a punishment beating. People do not like being lied to their faces. Yet that is what the government do - inflation is down, migration is stopping, investment is flowing, services have record money - all blatant lies that most of the electorate know and see and experience are lies. Yet they lie anyway, and sneer about anyone who says otherwise.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 23,156
    malcolmg said:

    ydoethur said:

    Honestly, Dorries. An arrogant wannabe posh women who doesn’t know the price of a peerage.

    Thick as mince to boot, what a combination.

    Foxy said:

    It would appear that Mad Nads will be found in contempt of parliament later today. That may change the dynamic. Also in need of change is that various people proffered gongs in the Boris! Dishonours list will also be found in contempt of parliament - at least Mogg and Clarke off top of my head.

    This one is pretty simple - anyone who committed contempt of parliament should have their stupid title cancelled. There can be no reward for that kind of behaviour, especially if (when?) the committee proposes sanctions.

    Good morning

    You are correct but does anyone really think anything will change

    I see Sunak has guaranteed the triple lock and will include it in the conservative manifesto and predictably Starmer has affirmed the same commitment to the triple lock

    We have another 18 months of this and frankly I doubt anything much will change with PM Starmer
    .
    The country is in decline. Public services run down or absent. Visible dirt and decay and litter because councils can't afford to employ enough staff and people have stopped caring. Vast public debt and record peacetime taxes to pay for these non-services.

    Fixing that, and giving people a brighter future, is not something where a new government can wave a magic wand. So you are right that change in the substance will be slow.

    What will change rapidly is the grift an corruption will stop. No more billions in public money stolen from us and handed to Tory donors and patrons. No more gross incompetence and uncaring sneering when people across the social demographic complain about bills / fuel / mortgages / food etc. No more illegal policies written in crayon aimed at people who don't see a problem with golliwogs.

    I like you will not vote for Starmer's Labour. But I will rejoice when the Tories get smashed as surely now is their fate.
    We just have "to hold our nerve" it seems.

    Whatever that means.
    It means not ask for pay rises, or expect decent housing, to ensure that the standard of living for the retired and top level managers can continue to rise unabated.
    I never fail to be amazed at the idiots on here fixated on pensioners. Given they are on fixed incomes with a crap £9K state pension that even with inflation increase would not enable you to live how do you greedy grasping ignorant arseholes think they are all living in luxury. All their costs are rising same as you fcukwit and they pay the same tax as you fcukwit. A few will have bigger houses and therefore far higher housing and utiklity bills than you fcukwit. Go and get a better job and stop whining.
    Morning Malc, I'm fine personally, a tad older than the generation below who are completely shafted. Not complaining on behalf of myself, but whats best for the country and what is fair. All in it together, everyone do their bit and all that rather than dividing the country into near permanent silos of haves and have nots.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,516

    It would appear that Mad Nads will be found in contempt of parliament later today. That may change the dynamic. Also in need of change is that various people proffered gongs in the Boris! Dishonours list will also be found in contempt of parliament - at least Mogg and Clarke off top of my head.

    This one is pretty simple - anyone who committed contempt of parliament should have their stupid title cancelled. There can be no reward for that kind of behaviour, especially if (when?) the committee proposes sanctions.

    Good morning

    You are correct but does anyone really think anything will change

    I see Sunak has guaranteed the triple lock and will include it in the conservative manifesto and predictably Starmer has affirmed the same commitment to the triple lock

    We have another 18 months of this and frankly I doubt anything much will change with PM Starmer
    .
    The country is in decline. Public services run down or absent. Visible dirt and decay and litter because councils can't afford to employ enough staff and people have stopped caring. Vast public debt and record peacetime taxes to pay for these non-services.

    Fixing that, and giving people a brighter future, is not something where a new government can wave a magic wand. So you are right that change in the substance will be slow.

    What will change rapidly is the grift an corruption will stop. No more billions in public money stolen from us and handed to Tory donors and patrons. No more gross incompetence and uncaring sneering when people across the social demographic complain about bills / fuel / mortgages / food etc. No more illegal policies written in crayon aimed at people who don't see a problem with golliwogs.

    I like you will not vote for Starmer's Labour. But I will rejoice when the Tories get smashed as surely now is their fate.
    Hard to disagree to be fair though gross incompetence is not the sole preserve of the conservative party as time will tell
    It's not, but even a reversion to normal levels of competence and graft will be a meaningful improvement on the status quo.

    That's what's so infuriating about the Conservatives right now.
    This is not just a tory issue its a how the country is run issue. The same bunch of people are in power and bar a bit of spin follow the same policies. Macquarie who are getting criticised for Thames debt bought the company in 2006 under Blair. Blair Brown Cameron Boris none of them have have actually done that much to reform the state and address its fundamental weaknesses.

  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,569

    I see from the last thread that Sadiq Khan is being accused of doing nothing as well as of introducing an unprecedented assault on the rights of drivers of really dirty old cars. It really can't be both.
    Within the narrow confines of the Mayor of London job, and the deliberately mean financial constraints imposed by central government, Khan is doing a good job. He's certainly out-performing his utterly useless and corrupt predecessor. He's not thrown money away on a pointless garden bridge to nowhere, he's not thrown money at a too expensive to run retro bus design, and unlike Johnson who cancelled a crucial Thames river crossing in the east he is building one. Oh, and he's overseen the biggest expansion in council housing since the 1970s as well as bravely taking on vested interests to improve London's fatally bad air quality. And is pushing forward with the Bakerloo Line extension. And deals with threats to his life from various extremists that mean he needs 24hr police protection while being the leading Muslim politician in Europe. He gets my vote.

    Absolutely. He's not very flashy, but I don't care about that. Incidentlaly, I have a 2015 Fiesta and it's ULEZ-compliant - how ancient does a car have to be to be a problem? I wo der if voters realise they eill mostly be unaffect.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,972
    On Susan Trump running for the Tories in London - as others are suggesting she is basically all the party have left. Nutjobs spewing lunacy in the mistaken belief that everyone who is right-thinking agrees with them.

    I had expected Sunak to clean the house a little - a firm directional change, tack to the centre to win back those critical votes whilst throwing enough populist bones to the red wall Brexiteers to keep them Tory.

    Instead he's managing to pander to all the extremes enough to drive away more voters whilst simultaneously not pandering to the extremes enough to keep them on board. We're going to see a choice of conservative parties on the ballot (unless they manage to pull SDPKIPREFCLAIM together as the "Britannia Party" or some other proto-fascist outfit and actually campaign on the policies that right-thinking people want.

    The "respectable" hard right used to be a minority faction both in votes and in politics. Despite Brexit making it briefly feel bigger than it is, the "sink the migrants / support our veterans" mob are still only a small vote. Yet currently has 3 parties vying for its vote plus the lunatic wing of the Tories resolutely dragging them in the same direction, that pro-gollywog vote being precious. Madness piled on madness.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,914
    Foxy said:

    It would appear that Mad Nads will be found in contempt of parliament later today. That may change the dynamic. Also in need of change is that various people proffered gongs in the Boris! Dishonours list will also be found in contempt of parliament - at least Mogg and Clarke off top of my head.

    This one is pretty simple - anyone who committed contempt of parliament should have their stupid title cancelled. There can be no reward for that kind of behaviour, especially if (when?) the committee proposes sanctions.

    Good morning

    You are correct but does anyone really think anything will change

    I see Sunak has guaranteed the triple lock and will include it in the conservative manifesto and predictably Starmer has affirmed the same commitment to the triple lock

    We have another 18 months of this and frankly I doubt anything much will change with PM Starmer
    .
    The country is in decline. Public services run down or absent. Visible dirt and decay and litter because councils can't afford to employ enough staff and people have stopped caring. Vast public debt and record peacetime taxes to pay for these non-services.

    Fixing that, and giving people a brighter future, is not something where a new government can wave a magic wand. So you are right that change in the substance will be slow.

    What will change rapidly is the grift an corruption will stop. No more billions in public money stolen from us and handed to Tory donors and patrons. No more gross incompetence and uncaring sneering when people across the social demographic complain about bills / fuel / mortgages / food etc. No more illegal policies written in crayon aimed at people who don't see a problem with golliwogs.

    I like you will not vote for Starmer's Labour. But I will rejoice when the Tories get smashed as surely now is their fate.
    We just have "to hold our nerve" it seems.

    Whatever that means.
    James O'Brien interpreted that as the "Royal we" and the reality is Team Sunak just has "to hold our nerve" in the hope that something turns up in the next 18 months to save them.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,393
    FF43 said:

    Morning all.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12245685/Fears-grow-four-water-firms-Thames-Water-teeters-brink-collapse.html

    Fears are growing for four more water firms as Thames Water teeters on the brink of collapse with contingency plans reportedly being made to nationalise swathes of Britain's water industry.

    Ministers have looked to allay fears around the impact of Thames Water potentially going under as the regulator vowed to work with the sector to deal with its debt levels.

    Work and Pensions Secretary Mel Stride said there were 'contingency plans in place for any eventuality' as Thames Water battles to finance the £14 billion of debt on its books following interest rate rises.

    It comes as several reports suggested concerns about Thames Water's finances had now broadened to other firms in the industry.

    The financial health of up to four other English water companies is being monitored, according to reports.

    These include Southern Water which serves 2.6million people and Yorkshire Water with 5million customers, it is understood.

    The Times cited a Whitehall source as saying: 'A lot of these companies are highly geared and struggling.

    'There is a worst case scenario where other companies end up in the same place as Thames Water.'

    As well as being an inherently misconceived idea the privatised water companies have been appallingly regulated. No wonder they took advantage of it.

    Been looking into the still state owned Scottish Water, which seems to be well run, providing water services at a lower cost, while investing more. People of England and Wales read this and weep:

    https://www.scottishwater.co.uk/-/media/ScottishWater/Document-Hub/Key-Publications/Annual-Reports/210722SCW2204AnnualReport2022AWNonRestricted_V3.pdf
    Quite. It was about to be privatised but a Labour local authoruty held an "unofficial" and therefore advisory referendum. But the result was so clear that even the Thatcherite satrap in the Scottish Office backed down.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,032
    Nigelb said:

    Morning all.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12245685/Fears-grow-four-water-firms-Thames-Water-teeters-brink-collapse.html

    Fears are growing for four more water firms as Thames Water teeters on the brink of collapse with contingency plans reportedly being made to nationalise swathes of Britain's water industry.

    Ministers have looked to allay fears around the impact of Thames Water potentially going under as the regulator vowed to work with the sector to deal with its debt levels.

    Work and Pensions Secretary Mel Stride said there were 'contingency plans in place for any eventuality' as Thames Water battles to finance the £14 billion of debt on its books following interest rate rises.

    It comes as several reports suggested concerns about Thames Water's finances had now broadened to other firms in the industry.

    The financial health of up to four other English water companies is being monitored, according to reports.

    These include Southern Water which serves 2.6million people and Yorkshire Water with 5million customers, it is understood.

    The Times cited a Whitehall source as saying: 'A lot of these companies are highly geared and struggling.

    'There is a worst case scenario where other companies end up in the same place as Thames Water.'

    It's not particularly easy to get a good picture of the extent of the problems as the most recent published Ofwat financial stability report is for 2021/22, before the interest rate hit.
    At the risk of triggering @ydoethur again, it does seem as if Ofwat have not carried out their duties very well. Anyone testing financial stability should surely have included a significant interest rate rise as a clear and obvious risk, particularly when interest rates were at record lows. It wasn't so much a risk as an inevitability, only the timing was uncertain.

    This should have restricted the amount of debt they were allowed to carry, no matter how cheap it was at the time. It is absolutely basic. These companies have become bets on the gilt market but not very good ones since the betting was all one way.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,569
    Interesting EU election poll. The hard right ECR (Mreloni, and the Polish nationalists in PiS) which the Tories used to belong to) is being outflanked by the ID ultras (AfD, Le Pen), while the Left is doing well thanks to Sinn Fein. I suspect that it'll end up with EPP (centre-right), Renew (Macron) and S&D (social democrats) still holding the only viable majority. Early days though.

    https://www.euractiv.com/section/politics/news/liberals-hold-the-key-to-next-eu-house-majority-report/?utm_source=EURACTIV&utm_campaign=e8d5ea9c84-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2023_06_23_12_36_COPY_01&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_-8777897010-[LIST_EMAIL_ID]
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,914

    It would appear that Mad Nads will be found in contempt of parliament later today. That may change the dynamic. Also in need of change is that various people proffered gongs in the Boris! Dishonours list will also be found in contempt of parliament - at least Mogg and Clarke off top of my head.

    This one is pretty simple - anyone who committed contempt of parliament should have their stupid title cancelled. There can be no reward for that kind of behaviour, especially if (when?) the committee proposes sanctions.

    Good morning

    You are correct but does anyone really think anything will change

    I see Sunak has guaranteed the triple lock and will include it in the conservative manifesto and predictably Starmer has affirmed the same commitment to the triple lock

    We have another 18 months of this and frankly I doubt anything much will change with PM Starmer
    .
    The country is in decline. Public services run down or absent. Visible dirt and decay and litter because councils can't afford to employ enough staff and people have stopped caring. Vast public debt and record peacetime taxes to pay for these non-services.

    Fixing that, and giving people a brighter future, is not something where a new government can wave a magic wand. So you are right that change in the substance will be slow.

    What will change rapidly is the grift an corruption will stop. No more billions in public money stolen from us and handed to Tory donors and patrons. No more gross incompetence and uncaring sneering when people across the social demographic complain about bills / fuel / mortgages / food etc. No more illegal policies written in crayon aimed at people who don't see a problem with golliwogs.

    I like you will not vote for Starmer's Labour. But I will rejoice when the Tories get smashed as surely now is their fate.
    Hard to disagree to be fair though gross incompetence is not the sole preserve of the conservative party as time will tell
    All parties, all governments screw some things up. But this lot take the biscuit. Hard to think of anything they are doing right. And the arrogance of them in insisting they are right and everyone else is wrong.

    This latter point is why I expect the election to be such a punishment beating. People do not like being lied to their faces. Yet that is what the government do - inflation is down, migration is stopping, investment is flowing, services have record money - all blatant lies that most of the electorate know and see and experience are lies. Yet they lie anyway, and sneer about anyone who says otherwise.
    At PMQs yesterday Sunak and his shill questioners all made the point that the nation's current travails are the fault of "the party opposite". Sunak had very much taken on the role of an exasperated LOTO.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,769
    FF43 said:

    Morning all.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12245685/Fears-grow-four-water-firms-Thames-Water-teeters-brink-collapse.html

    Fears are growing for four more water firms as Thames Water teeters on the brink of collapse with contingency plans reportedly being made to nationalise swathes of Britain's water industry.

    Ministers have looked to allay fears around the impact of Thames Water potentially going under as the regulator vowed to work with the sector to deal with its debt levels.

    Work and Pensions Secretary Mel Stride said there were 'contingency plans in place for any eventuality' as Thames Water battles to finance the £14 billion of debt on its books following interest rate rises.

    It comes as several reports suggested concerns about Thames Water's finances had now broadened to other firms in the industry.

    The financial health of up to four other English water companies is being monitored, according to reports.

    These include Southern Water which serves 2.6million people and Yorkshire Water with 5million customers, it is understood.

    The Times cited a Whitehall source as saying: 'A lot of these companies are highly geared and struggling.

    'There is a worst case scenario where other companies end up in the same place as Thames Water.'

    As well as being an inherently misconceived idea the privatised water companies have been appallingly regulated. No wonder they took advantage of it.

    Been looking into the still state owned Scottish Water, which seems to be well run, providing water services at a lower cost, while investing more. People of England and Wales read this and weep:

    https://www.scottishwater.co.uk/-/media/ScottishWater/Document-Hub/Key-Publications/Annual-Reports/210722SCW2204AnnualReport2022AWNonRestricted_V3.pdf
    Hmmm.

    https://www.thenational.scot/news/19674520.fact-check-scotland-immune-sewage-waterways/

    If even the National takes a rather different view (although naturally they reflexively say independence would magically solve it) I'm not sure that's correct.

    I would have said - entirely non-expert so I could easily be wrong - the key issue is we have an essentially Victorian water network serving more than twice the population it was designed for (and to much higher standards than the Victorians demanded) while the density of building makes renewal work very difficult.

    This is compounded by the eagerness of companies to show profits rather than carry out the work stopping leaks or improving the sewer system, and further compounded by the poor quality of many managers and regulators who are appointed because of who they know not what they know.

    I don't think that would be solved by renationalisation. Ultimately, it will be solved by accepting we need to prioritise renewing our utility network and putting actual engineers in charge to make it happen. That would not be cheap (exhibit A - I K Brunel).
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,769
    edited June 2023
    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    Morning all.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12245685/Fears-grow-four-water-firms-Thames-Water-teeters-brink-collapse.html

    Fears are growing for four more water firms as Thames Water teeters on the brink of collapse with contingency plans reportedly being made to nationalise swathes of Britain's water industry.

    Ministers have looked to allay fears around the impact of Thames Water potentially going under as the regulator vowed to work with the sector to deal with its debt levels.

    Work and Pensions Secretary Mel Stride said there were 'contingency plans in place for any eventuality' as Thames Water battles to finance the £14 billion of debt on its books following interest rate rises.

    It comes as several reports suggested concerns about Thames Water's finances had now broadened to other firms in the industry.

    The financial health of up to four other English water companies is being monitored, according to reports.

    These include Southern Water which serves 2.6million people and Yorkshire Water with 5million customers, it is understood.

    The Times cited a Whitehall source as saying: 'A lot of these companies are highly geared and struggling.

    'There is a worst case scenario where other companies end up in the same place as Thames Water.'

    It's not particularly easy to get a good picture of the extent of the problems as the most recent published Ofwat financial stability report is for 2021/22, before the interest rate hit.
    At the risk of triggering @ydoethur again, it does seem as if Ofwat have not carried out their duties very well. Anyone testing financial stability should surely have included a significant interest rate rise as a clear and obvious risk, particularly when interest rates were at record lows. It wasn't so much a risk as an inevitability, only the timing was uncertain.

    This should have restricted the amount of debt they were allowed to carry, no matter how cheap it was at the time. It is absolutely basic. These companies have become bets on the gilt market but not very good ones since the betting was all one way.
    Why would I be triggered by Ofwat? It's OFSTED I've got in my sights.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,260
    edited June 2023
    Faisal Islam on R4 today hinting both government and opposition are nervous about Britain's investabilty outlook if the shareholders have to pay.

    What a mess-up. In fact that's an understatement ; what an epochal, symbolic fiasco.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,972

    It would appear that Mad Nads will be found in contempt of parliament later today. That may change the dynamic. Also in need of change is that various people proffered gongs in the Boris! Dishonours list will also be found in contempt of parliament - at least Mogg and Clarke off top of my head.

    This one is pretty simple - anyone who committed contempt of parliament should have their stupid title cancelled. There can be no reward for that kind of behaviour, especially if (when?) the committee proposes sanctions.

    Good morning

    You are correct but does anyone really think anything will change

    I see Sunak has guaranteed the triple lock and will include it in the conservative manifesto and predictably Starmer has affirmed the same commitment to the triple lock

    We have another 18 months of this and frankly I doubt anything much will change with PM Starmer
    .
    The country is in decline. Public services run down or absent. Visible dirt and decay and litter because councils can't afford to employ enough staff and people have stopped caring. Vast public debt and record peacetime taxes to pay for these non-services.

    Fixing that, and giving people a brighter future, is not something where a new government can wave a magic wand. So you are right that change in the substance will be slow.

    What will change rapidly is the grift an corruption will stop. No more billions in public money stolen from us and handed to Tory donors and patrons. No more gross incompetence and uncaring sneering when people across the social demographic complain about bills / fuel / mortgages / food etc. No more illegal policies written in crayon aimed at people who don't see a problem with golliwogs.

    I like you will not vote for Starmer's Labour. But I will rejoice when the Tories get smashed as surely now is their fate.
    Hard to disagree to be fair though gross incompetence is not the sole preserve of the conservative party as time will tell
    It's not, but even a reversion to normal levels of competence and graft will be a meaningful improvement on the status quo.

    That's what's so infuriating about the Conservatives right now.
    This is not just a tory issue its a how the country is run issue. The same bunch of people are in power and bar a bit of spin follow the same policies. Macquarie who are getting criticised for Thames debt bought the company in 2006 under Blair. Blair Brown Cameron Boris none of them have have actually done that much to reform the state and address its fundamental weaknesses.

    You are right about this not just being a Tory issue. The post-Thatcher political settlement accepted the marketisation of such things as water. Whilst all of the utilities are regulated industries (and thus can be directed by government how to behave) the mood has been to let the market keep doing what it is and use the tax revenues raised to pay for the public good.

    The issue now is the breakdown in that post-Thatcher settlement. Brexit was for millions a direct rebellion against the long-term decay and decline that so many communities have suffered in this era. The Johnson government promising money a direct result. But there is no money, and not only has the market overseen the hollowing out of public service provision, its doing so in a way that threatens pensions if these outfits implode like a carbon-fibre submarine under the weight of their own debts.

    Lots paid for poor services, and companies crushed by massive debt.

    The money has gone somewhere, hasn't it...?

    As people realise they have been scammed by the spivocracy, the post-Brexit settlement will see us move to the same StateCo model which works so successfully in much of Europe (and up here in Scotland with water etc). Because we won't have much of a choice.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,557

    On Susan Trump running for the Tories in London - as others are suggesting she is basically all the party have left. Nutjobs spewing lunacy in the mistaken belief that everyone who is right-thinking agrees with them.

    I had expected Sunak to clean the house a little - a firm directional change, tack to the centre to win back those critical votes whilst throwing enough populist bones to the red wall Brexiteers to keep them Tory.

    Instead he's managing to pander to all the extremes enough to drive away more voters whilst simultaneously not pandering to the extremes enough to keep them on board. We're going to see a choice of conservative parties on the ballot (unless they manage to pull SDPKIPREFCLAIM together as the "Britannia Party" or some other proto-fascist outfit and actually campaign on the policies that right-thinking people want.

    The "respectable" hard right used to be a minority faction both in votes and in politics. Despite Brexit making it briefly feel bigger than it is, the "sink the migrants / support our veterans" mob are still only a small vote. Yet currently has 3 parties vying for its vote plus the lunatic wing of the Tories resolutely dragging them in the same direction, that pro-gollywog vote being precious. Madness piled on madness.

    Clearly CCHQ is in urgent need of a rest and clear out as they keep screwing up.

    It’s a bit like Everton where the team have some good players but a lot of dross and they lost a lot of their better players over the years without being replaced. They had a selection of managers from winners such as Ancelotti to the Privately educated Tory who could charm decision makers and sound intelligent on TV, Lampard, who left them on the edge of oblivion.

    They’ve finally got a dull but competent manager to try and keep them in the game the problem has been that behind the scenes there have been questions about Russian money but most importantly the board have been shit and disfunctional and ultimately in charge of who gets hired and what happens behind the scenes.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,914
    ...
    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    Morning all.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12245685/Fears-grow-four-water-firms-Thames-Water-teeters-brink-collapse.html

    Fears are growing for four more water firms as Thames Water teeters on the brink of collapse with contingency plans reportedly being made to nationalise swathes of Britain's water industry.

    Ministers have looked to allay fears around the impact of Thames Water potentially going under as the regulator vowed to work with the sector to deal with its debt levels.

    Work and Pensions Secretary Mel Stride said there were 'contingency plans in place for any eventuality' as Thames Water battles to finance the £14 billion of debt on its books following interest rate rises.

    It comes as several reports suggested concerns about Thames Water's finances had now broadened to other firms in the industry.

    The financial health of up to four other English water companies is being monitored, according to reports.

    These include Southern Water which serves 2.6million people and Yorkshire Water with 5million customers, it is understood.

    The Times cited a Whitehall source as saying: 'A lot of these companies are highly geared and struggling.

    'There is a worst case scenario where other companies end up in the same place as Thames Water.'

    It's not particularly easy to get a good picture of the extent of the problems as the most recent published Ofwat financial stability report is for 2021/22, before the interest rate hit.
    At the risk of triggering @ydoethur again, it does seem as if Ofwat have not carried out their duties very well. Anyone testing financial stability should surely have included a significant interest rate rise as a clear and obvious risk, particularly when interest rates were at record lows. It wasn't so much a risk as an inevitability, only the timing was uncertain.

    This should have restricted the amount of debt they were allowed to carry, no matter how cheap it was at the time. It is absolutely basic. These companies have become bets on the gilt market but not very good ones since the betting was all one way.
    Why would I be triggered by Ofwat? It's OFSTED I've got in my sights.
    Maybe Ofwat could make a better fist of regulating Education in England than OFQUAL.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,498

    I see from the last thread that Sadiq Khan is being accused of doing nothing as well as of introducing an unprecedented assault on the rights of drivers of really dirty old cars. It really can't be both.
    Within the narrow confines of the Mayor of London job, and the deliberately mean financial constraints imposed by central government, Khan is doing a good job. He's certainly out-performing his utterly useless and corrupt predecessor. He's not thrown money away on a pointless garden bridge to nowhere, he's not thrown money at a too expensive to run retro bus design, and unlike Johnson who cancelled a crucial Thames river crossing in the east he is building one. Oh, and he's overseen the biggest expansion in council housing since the 1970s as well as bravely taking on vested interests to improve London's fatally bad air quality. And is pushing forward with the Bakerloo Line extension. And deals with threats to his life from various extremists that mean he needs 24hr police protection while being the leading Muslim politician in Europe. He gets my vote.

    Absolutely. He's not very flashy, but I don't care about that. Incidentlaly, I have a 2015 Fiesta and it's ULEZ-compliant - how ancient does a car have to be to be a problem? I wo der if voters realise they eill mostly be unaffect.
    Does whether it's petrol or diesel matter?

    Also: the majority of older cars are driven by people who cannot afford newer ones. It's alright people who are reasonably well-off saying their vehicles meet it; it will badly affect many others who are less well-off.

    I don't believe my VW Passat (2012) meets the requirement.

    Having said all that; it's probably a good idea. But you cannot ignore its negative consequences when talking about the positives.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,900

    I see from the last thread that Sadiq Khan is being accused of doing nothing as well as of introducing an unprecedented assault on the rights of drivers of really dirty old cars. It really can't be both.
    Within the narrow confines of the Mayor of London job, and the deliberately mean financial constraints imposed by central government, Khan is doing a good job. He's certainly out-performing his utterly useless and corrupt predecessor. He's not thrown money away on a pointless garden bridge to nowhere, he's not thrown money at a too expensive to run retro bus design, and unlike Johnson who cancelled a crucial Thames river crossing in the east he is building one. Oh, and he's overseen the biggest expansion in council housing since the 1970s as well as bravely taking on vested interests to improve London's fatally bad air quality. And is pushing forward with the Bakerloo Line extension. And deals with threats to his life from various extremists that mean he needs 24hr police protection while being the leading Muslim politician in Europe. He gets my vote.

    Depends what you think a Mayor is for, and there are two views on that. One is the one @Leon was talking about last night- to be Mr London (or wherever), bang the drum for the city and be the pole of unity for the population. It's not a wrong view, though it's more a thing on the right. We like our leaders to lead.

    The other is the one to get nitty gritty things done. Realistic plans and schemes to improve lives.

    Boris, whatever was wrong about him (and was wrong at the time) was a damn good Mayor of the first sort. Sadiq is good on the second front but not the first. Nothing wrong with that- my distant impression is that Andy Street does the same sort of thing with a blue tint in the West Midlands.

    Really good Mayors manage both. Prime Ken did it, Andy Burnham seems similar. Steve Norris might well have been the same. Part of the problem for London Conservatives is that they seem bent on choosing a candidate who does neither.
    The Right likes the Raa Raa Raa London brah model of mayorship because it is an all mouth and no trousers approach to governing that distracts trivial minded people with nonsense and doesn't get anything done, and getting nothing done is their favoured model of government. Could Khan be a bit more flash? Maybe. But getting actual stuff done to improve people's lives - like building transport infrastructure and affordable homes and giving our kids clean air to breathe is way more important.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,769

    ...

    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    Morning all.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12245685/Fears-grow-four-water-firms-Thames-Water-teeters-brink-collapse.html

    Fears are growing for four more water firms as Thames Water teeters on the brink of collapse with contingency plans reportedly being made to nationalise swathes of Britain's water industry.

    Ministers have looked to allay fears around the impact of Thames Water potentially going under as the regulator vowed to work with the sector to deal with its debt levels.

    Work and Pensions Secretary Mel Stride said there were 'contingency plans in place for any eventuality' as Thames Water battles to finance the £14 billion of debt on its books following interest rate rises.

    It comes as several reports suggested concerns about Thames Water's finances had now broadened to other firms in the industry.

    The financial health of up to four other English water companies is being monitored, according to reports.

    These include Southern Water which serves 2.6million people and Yorkshire Water with 5million customers, it is understood.

    The Times cited a Whitehall source as saying: 'A lot of these companies are highly geared and struggling.

    'There is a worst case scenario where other companies end up in the same place as Thames Water.'

    It's not particularly easy to get a good picture of the extent of the problems as the most recent published Ofwat financial stability report is for 2021/22, before the interest rate hit.
    At the risk of triggering @ydoethur again, it does seem as if Ofwat have not carried out their duties very well. Anyone testing financial stability should surely have included a significant interest rate rise as a clear and obvious risk, particularly when interest rates were at record lows. It wasn't so much a risk as an inevitability, only the timing was uncertain.

    This should have restricted the amount of debt they were allowed to carry, no matter how cheap it was at the time. It is absolutely basic. These companies have become bets on the gilt market but not very good ones since the betting was all one way.
    Why would I be triggered by Ofwat? It's OFSTED I've got in my sights.
    Maybe Ofwat could make a better fist of regulating Education in England than OFQUAL.
    They couldn't make a much worse mess of it than OFQUAL or OFSTED. They're less full of shit.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,672
    Scott_xP said:

    She backed Boris and Brexit, shilled for Trump and hailed the Truss budget. ...she probably represents what a lot of Tory candidates are going to be like in the coming years.

    Why not stand as UKIP and be done with it
    UKIP took over the Conservative party. It was much easier than starting from scratch - especially with our voting system.

  • Faisal Islam on R4 today hinting both government and opposition are nervous about Britain's investabilty outlook if the shareholders have to pay.

    What a mess-up. In fact that's an understatement ; what an epochal, symbolic fiasco.

    What a load of crap.

    All investments can go down as well as up.

    If shareholders make a bad investment that's not the taxpayers responsibility.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,032
    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    Morning all.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12245685/Fears-grow-four-water-firms-Thames-Water-teeters-brink-collapse.html

    Fears are growing for four more water firms as Thames Water teeters on the brink of collapse with contingency plans reportedly being made to nationalise swathes of Britain's water industry.

    Ministers have looked to allay fears around the impact of Thames Water potentially going under as the regulator vowed to work with the sector to deal with its debt levels.

    Work and Pensions Secretary Mel Stride said there were 'contingency plans in place for any eventuality' as Thames Water battles to finance the £14 billion of debt on its books following interest rate rises.

    It comes as several reports suggested concerns about Thames Water's finances had now broadened to other firms in the industry.

    The financial health of up to four other English water companies is being monitored, according to reports.

    These include Southern Water which serves 2.6million people and Yorkshire Water with 5million customers, it is understood.

    The Times cited a Whitehall source as saying: 'A lot of these companies are highly geared and struggling.

    'There is a worst case scenario where other companies end up in the same place as Thames Water.'

    It's not particularly easy to get a good picture of the extent of the problems as the most recent published Ofwat financial stability report is for 2021/22, before the interest rate hit.
    At the risk of triggering @ydoethur again, it does seem as if Ofwat have not carried out their duties very well. Anyone testing financial stability should surely have included a significant interest rate rise as a clear and obvious risk, particularly when interest rates were at record lows. It wasn't so much a risk as an inevitability, only the timing was uncertain.

    This should have restricted the amount of debt they were allowed to carry, no matter how cheap it was at the time. It is absolutely basic. These companies have become bets on the gilt market but not very good ones since the betting was all one way.
    Why would I be triggered by Ofwat? It's OFSTED I've got in my sights.
    I got the impression yesterday that OFanything was enough these days and you have a point.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,947

    On Susan Trump running for the Tories in London - as others are suggesting she is basically all the party have left. Nutjobs spewing lunacy in the mistaken belief that everyone who is right-thinking agrees with them.

    I had expected Sunak to clean the house a little - a firm directional change, tack to the centre to win back those critical votes whilst throwing enough populist bones to the red wall Brexiteers to keep them Tory.

    Instead he's managing to pander to all the extremes enough to drive away more voters whilst simultaneously not pandering to the extremes enough to keep them on board. We're going to see a choice of conservative parties on the ballot (unless they manage to pull SDPKIPREFCLAIM together as the "Britannia Party" or some other proto-fascist outfit and actually campaign on the policies that right-thinking people want.

    The "respectable" hard right used to be a minority faction both in votes and in politics. Despite Brexit making it briefly feel bigger than it is, the "sink the migrants / support our veterans" mob are still only a small vote. Yet currently has 3 parties vying for its vote plus the lunatic wing of the Tories resolutely dragging them in the same direction, that pro-gollywog vote being precious. Madness piled on madness.

    Isn't it just a case of Boris/Brexit hollowing out the sane Tories which makes it very difficult to recover to a more central position and broad church.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,769
    DavidL said:

    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    Morning all.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12245685/Fears-grow-four-water-firms-Thames-Water-teeters-brink-collapse.html

    Fears are growing for four more water firms as Thames Water teeters on the brink of collapse with contingency plans reportedly being made to nationalise swathes of Britain's water industry.

    Ministers have looked to allay fears around the impact of Thames Water potentially going under as the regulator vowed to work with the sector to deal with its debt levels.

    Work and Pensions Secretary Mel Stride said there were 'contingency plans in place for any eventuality' as Thames Water battles to finance the £14 billion of debt on its books following interest rate rises.

    It comes as several reports suggested concerns about Thames Water's finances had now broadened to other firms in the industry.

    The financial health of up to four other English water companies is being monitored, according to reports.

    These include Southern Water which serves 2.6million people and Yorkshire Water with 5million customers, it is understood.

    The Times cited a Whitehall source as saying: 'A lot of these companies are highly geared and struggling.

    'There is a worst case scenario where other companies end up in the same place as Thames Water.'

    It's not particularly easy to get a good picture of the extent of the problems as the most recent published Ofwat financial stability report is for 2021/22, before the interest rate hit.
    At the risk of triggering @ydoethur again, it does seem as if Ofwat have not carried out their duties very well. Anyone testing financial stability should surely have included a significant interest rate rise as a clear and obvious risk, particularly when interest rates were at record lows. It wasn't so much a risk as an inevitability, only the timing was uncertain.

    This should have restricted the amount of debt they were allowed to carry, no matter how cheap it was at the time. It is absolutely basic. These companies have become bets on the gilt market but not very good ones since the betting was all one way.
    Why would I be triggered by Ofwat? It's OFSTED I've got in my sights.
    I got the impression yesterday that OFanything was enough these days and you have a point.
    Well, TBF you have now started me talking about OFQUAL and OFSTED so I suppose you have triggered me.

    I think however it would be better just to rename them. So the last OFSTED inspector I had in my classroom should have been working for offclothes (if that sounds creepy, he was) OFQUAL should be renamed offtheirfaces because they must have been when they designed the new exams, and for ofwat we should adopt the name suggested by Jasper Carrott in 1992 - offpiss.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,900

    I see from the last thread that Sadiq Khan is being accused of doing nothing as well as of introducing an unprecedented assault on the rights of drivers of really dirty old cars. It really can't be both.
    Within the narrow confines of the Mayor of London job, and the deliberately mean financial constraints imposed by central government, Khan is doing a good job. He's certainly out-performing his utterly useless and corrupt predecessor. He's not thrown money away on a pointless garden bridge to nowhere, he's not thrown money at a too expensive to run retro bus design, and unlike Johnson who cancelled a crucial Thames river crossing in the east he is building one. Oh, and he's overseen the biggest expansion in council housing since the 1970s as well as bravely taking on vested interests to improve London's fatally bad air quality. And is pushing forward with the Bakerloo Line extension. And deals with threats to his life from various extremists that mean he needs 24hr police protection while being the leading Muslim politician in Europe. He gets my vote.

    Absolutely. He's not very flashy, but I don't care about that. Incidentlaly, I have a 2015 Fiesta and it's ULEZ-compliant - how ancient does a car have to be to be a problem? I wo der if voters realise they eill mostly be unaffect.
    Does whether it's petrol or diesel matter?

    Also: the majority of older cars are driven by people who cannot afford newer ones. It's alright people who are reasonably well-off saying their vehicles meet it; it will badly affect many others who are less well-off.

    I don't believe my VW Passat (2012) meets the requirement.

    Having said all that; it's probably a good idea. But you cannot ignore its negative consequences when talking about the positives.
    Not necessarily. I had to buy a new (second hand) car to replace my non compliant diesel MPV a few years ago when the original ULEZ came in, and I am minted. If you have a rusty old banger you can buy an almost as old and cheap banger that meets the rules - especially if it's petrol. Second hand cars are quite cheap. I agree it's going to hurt some people and that is a shame but more poor people are affected by breathing dirty air (check out how many inner city schools are in areas with poor air quality) than are affected by having to get a slightly newer car.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,769

    Faisal Islam on R4 today hinting both government and opposition are nervous about Britain's investabilty outlook if the shareholders have to pay.

    What a mess-up. In fact that's an understatement ; what an epochal, symbolic fiasco.

    What a load of crap.

    All investments can go down as well as up.

    If shareholders make a bad investment that's not the taxpayers responsibility.
    Why are you surprised? Thames Water are AIUI world beating at putting out a load of crap.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,032
    ydoethur said:

    FF43 said:

    Morning all.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12245685/Fears-grow-four-water-firms-Thames-Water-teeters-brink-collapse.html

    Fears are growing for four more water firms as Thames Water teeters on the brink of collapse with contingency plans reportedly being made to nationalise swathes of Britain's water industry.

    Ministers have looked to allay fears around the impact of Thames Water potentially going under as the regulator vowed to work with the sector to deal with its debt levels.

    Work and Pensions Secretary Mel Stride said there were 'contingency plans in place for any eventuality' as Thames Water battles to finance the £14 billion of debt on its books following interest rate rises.

    It comes as several reports suggested concerns about Thames Water's finances had now broadened to other firms in the industry.

    The financial health of up to four other English water companies is being monitored, according to reports.

    These include Southern Water which serves 2.6million people and Yorkshire Water with 5million customers, it is understood.

    The Times cited a Whitehall source as saying: 'A lot of these companies are highly geared and struggling.

    'There is a worst case scenario where other companies end up in the same place as Thames Water.'

    As well as being an inherently misconceived idea the privatised water companies have been appallingly regulated. No wonder they took advantage of it.

    Been looking into the still state owned Scottish Water, which seems to be well run, providing water services at a lower cost, while investing more. People of England and Wales read this and weep:

    https://www.scottishwater.co.uk/-/media/ScottishWater/Document-Hub/Key-Publications/Annual-Reports/210722SCW2204AnnualReport2022AWNonRestricted_V3.pdf
    Hmmm.

    https://www.thenational.scot/news/19674520.fact-check-scotland-immune-sewage-waterways/

    If even the National takes a rather different view (although naturally they reflexively say independence would magically solve it) I'm not sure that's correct.

    I would have said - entirely non-expert so I could easily be wrong - the key issue is we have an essentially Victorian water network serving more than twice the population it was designed for (and to much higher standards than the Victorians demanded) while the density of building makes renewal work very difficult.

    This is compounded by the eagerness of companies to show profits rather than carry out the work stopping leaks or improving the sewer system, and further compounded by the poor quality of many managers and regulators who are appointed because of who they know not what they know.

    I don't think that would be solved by renationalisation. Ultimately, it will be solved by accepting we need to prioritise renewing our utility network and putting actual engineers in charge to make it happen. That would not be cheap (exhibit A - I K Brunel).
    One of the major problems with Scottish Water is their reluctance to extend their network to facilitate new developments, whether residential or commercial. It is proving a serious block to new investment and the obtaining of planning permission.
  • kjh said:

    On Susan Trump running for the Tories in London - as others are suggesting she is basically all the party have left. Nutjobs spewing lunacy in the mistaken belief that everyone who is right-thinking agrees with them.

    I had expected Sunak to clean the house a little - a firm directional change, tack to the centre to win back those critical votes whilst throwing enough populist bones to the red wall Brexiteers to keep them Tory.

    Instead he's managing to pander to all the extremes enough to drive away more voters whilst simultaneously not pandering to the extremes enough to keep them on board. We're going to see a choice of conservative parties on the ballot (unless they manage to pull SDPKIPREFCLAIM together as the "Britannia Party" or some other proto-fascist outfit and actually campaign on the policies that right-thinking people want.

    The "respectable" hard right used to be a minority faction both in votes and in politics. Despite Brexit making it briefly feel bigger than it is, the "sink the migrants / support our veterans" mob are still only a small vote. Yet currently has 3 parties vying for its vote plus the lunatic wing of the Tories resolutely dragging them in the same direction, that pro-gollywog vote being precious. Madness piled on madness.

    Isn't it just a case of Boris/Brexit hollowing out the sane Tories which makes it very difficult to recover to a more central position and broad church.
    QTWAIN.

    Boris at the last election had a broad church central position which attracted one of the highest shares of the vote in England recorded in the past half century. Higher even than Tony Blair achieved.

    No "centrists" got kicked out, the only people who lost the whip were a few diehard zealots who voted against the whip on a confidence motion on Europe which is not a "centrist" position whatsoever.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,947

    I see from the last thread that Sadiq Khan is being accused of doing nothing as well as of introducing an unprecedented assault on the rights of drivers of really dirty old cars. It really can't be both.
    Within the narrow confines of the Mayor of London job, and the deliberately mean financial constraints imposed by central government, Khan is doing a good job. He's certainly out-performing his utterly useless and corrupt predecessor. He's not thrown money away on a pointless garden bridge to nowhere, he's not thrown money at a too expensive to run retro bus design, and unlike Johnson who cancelled a crucial Thames river crossing in the east he is building one. Oh, and he's overseen the biggest expansion in council housing since the 1970s as well as bravely taking on vested interests to improve London's fatally bad air quality. And is pushing forward with the Bakerloo Line extension. And deals with threats to his life from various extremists that mean he needs 24hr police protection while being the leading Muslim politician in Europe. He gets my vote.

    Depends what you think a Mayor is for, and there are two views on that. One is the one @Leon was talking about last night- to be Mr London (or wherever), bang the drum for the city and be the pole of unity for the population. It's not a wrong view, though it's more a thing on the right. We like our leaders to lead.

    The other is the one to get nitty gritty things done. Realistic plans and schemes to improve lives.

    Boris, whatever was wrong about him (and was wrong at the time) was a damn good Mayor of the first sort. Sadiq is good on the second front but not the first. Nothing wrong with that- my distant impression is that Andy Street does the same sort of thing with a blue tint in the West Midlands.

    Really good Mayors manage both. Prime Ken did it, Andy Burnham seems similar. Steve Norris might well have been the same. Part of the problem for London Conservatives is that they seem bent on choosing a candidate who does neither.
    Back to me agreeing with everything you post 👍
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,228
    Good morning from sunny Yorkshire.

    Nice to see the Daily Mail coming out so strongly against private health care.

    And Just Stop Oil can celebrate a successful mission, getting on several front pages thanks to Bairstow.
  • Faisal Islam on R4 today hinting both government and opposition are nervous about Britain's investabilty outlook if the shareholders have to pay.

    What a mess-up. In fact that's an understatement ; what an epochal, symbolic fiasco.

    Thatcher is lauded on here as having transformed Britain for the better after the inertia of the "Post-War Concensus", creating a privatised model to envy the world. Yet some of her keystones like the selling off of public sector housing and the privatisation of utilities are birds that seem to be coming home to roost forty years on.
    How is a private firm failing a bird coming home to roost? That's the entire point of privatisation.

    A failed state business will just keep draining taxpayer funds, but a failed private business will be put out of it's misery.

    If it fails, it fails. Let it die. That's a success not a failure for privatisation. The idea private businesses can't be allowed to die is turning your back on privatisation.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,256
    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    Morning all.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12245685/Fears-grow-four-water-firms-Thames-Water-teeters-brink-collapse.html

    Fears are growing for four more water firms as Thames Water teeters on the brink of collapse with contingency plans reportedly being made to nationalise swathes of Britain's water industry.

    Ministers have looked to allay fears around the impact of Thames Water potentially going under as the regulator vowed to work with the sector to deal with its debt levels.

    Work and Pensions Secretary Mel Stride said there were 'contingency plans in place for any eventuality' as Thames Water battles to finance the £14 billion of debt on its books following interest rate rises.

    It comes as several reports suggested concerns about Thames Water's finances had now broadened to other firms in the industry.

    The financial health of up to four other English water companies is being monitored, according to reports.

    These include Southern Water which serves 2.6million people and Yorkshire Water with 5million customers, it is understood.

    The Times cited a Whitehall source as saying: 'A lot of these companies are highly geared and struggling.

    'There is a worst case scenario where other companies end up in the same place as Thames Water.'

    It's not particularly easy to get a good picture of the extent of the problems as the most recent published Ofwat financial stability report is for 2021/22, before the interest rate hit.
    Presumably the water utilities are not the only zombie companies loaded with debt that they will struggle to finance at higher interest rates.

    This zombie government too, for that matter.

    It would appear that Mad Nads will be found in contempt of parliament later today. That may change the dynamic. Also in need of change is that various people proffered gongs in the Boris! Dishonours list will also be found in contempt of parliament - at least Mogg and Clarke off top of my head.

    This one is pretty simple - anyone who committed contempt of parliament should have their stupid title cancelled. There can be no reward for that kind of behaviour, especially if (when?) the committee proposes sanctions.

    Good morning

    You are correct but does anyone really think anything will change

    I see Sunak has guaranteed the triple lock and will include it in the conservative manifesto and predictably Starmer has affirmed the same commitment to the triple lock

    We have another 18 months of this and frankly I doubt anything much will change with PM Starmer
    .
    The country is in decline. Public services run down or absent. Visible dirt and decay and litter because councils can't afford to employ enough staff and people have stopped caring. Vast public debt and record peacetime taxes to pay for these non-services.

    Fixing that, and giving people a brighter future, is not something where a new government can wave a magic wand. So you are right that change in the substance will be slow.

    What will change rapidly is the grift an corruption will stop. No more billions in public money stolen from us and handed to Tory donors and patrons. No more gross incompetence and uncaring sneering when people across the social demographic complain about bills / fuel / mortgages / food etc. No more illegal policies written in crayon aimed at people who don't see a problem with golliwogs.

    I like you will not vote for Starmer's Labour. But I will rejoice when the Tories get smashed as surely now is their fate.
    Hard to disagree to be fair though gross incompetence is not the sole preserve of the conservative party as time will tell
    It's not, but even a reversion to normal levels of competence and graft will be a meaningful improvement on the status quo.

    That's what's so infuriating about the Conservatives right now.
    This is not just a tory issue its a how the country is run issue. The same bunch of people are in power and bar a bit of spin follow the same policies. Macquarie who are getting criticised for Thames debt bought the company in 2006 under Blair. Blair Brown Cameron Boris none of them have have actually done that much to reform the state and address its fundamental weaknesses.

    As I observed yesterday.

    Our most intractable problems are at least a couple of decades in the making. We need to realise that it will take as long to sort them out, and stop pretending it can be done in an electoral cycle or two.
    But it needs to be started on now.
  • TheValiantTheValiant Posts: 1,882
    rcs1000 said:



    Because, absent interest payments, Thames Water will be highly profitable.

    EBITDA! EBITDA!

    I mean, I don't know any Finance Director who (realising this trick) capitalised EVERYTHING and then depreciated it.

    Oh wait... I do. Quite a few actually.

  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,260
    edited June 2023

    Faisal Islam on R4 today hinting both government and opposition are nervous about Britain's investabilty outlook if the shareholders have to pay.

    What a mess-up. In fact that's an understatement ; what an epochal, symbolic fiasco.

    Thatcher is lauded on here as having transformed Britain for the better after the inertia of the "Post-War Concensus", creating a privatised model to envy the world. Yet some of her keystones like the selling off of public sector housing and the privatisation of utilities are birds that seem to be coming home to roost forty years on.
    As i've said before, I don't think Thatcher is going to go down in history as the great, reviving prime minister many people have liked to believe for a long tome.

    Too much of what she promised has turned out to be a short-term sticking plaster, or outright fantasy, and there will always be the question having over this of what would have happened if the Continental, SDP/Liberal Alliance route had been taken instead.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,415
    edited June 2023

    Faisal Islam on R4 today hinting both government and opposition are nervous about Britain's investabilty outlook if the shareholders have to pay.

    What a mess-up. In fact that's an understatement ; what an epochal, symbolic fiasco.

    Eh ??

    Where to even start with this one. Do people worry about the US' "investibility" when Pan-Am went bust ???
    What do we even actually have left to sell from public ownership any more ?
    Investors can read balance sheets and make good, bad or indifferent decisions.
    The right decision here is to simply let Thames Water fail then pick it for £1 or some such once it's in administration.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,769

    Faisal Islam on R4 today hinting both government and opposition are nervous about Britain's investabilty outlook if the shareholders have to pay.

    What a mess-up. In fact that's an understatement ; what an epochal, symbolic fiasco.

    Thatcher is lauded on here as having transformed Britain for the better after the inertia of the "Post-War Concensus", creating a privatised model to envy the world. Yet some of her keystones like the selling off of public sector housing and the privatisation of utilities are birds that seem to be coming home to roost forty years on.
    She was ultimately a Keynesian in outlook:

    'In the long run, we are all dead.'
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,256

    Faisal Islam on R4 today hinting both government and opposition are nervous about Britain's investabilty outlook if the shareholders have to pay...

    Yep.

    But the same could be said for bailing them out.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,031
    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    Morning all.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12245685/Fears-grow-four-water-firms-Thames-Water-teeters-brink-collapse.html

    Fears are growing for four more water firms as Thames Water teeters on the brink of collapse with contingency plans reportedly being made to nationalise swathes of Britain's water industry.

    Ministers have looked to allay fears around the impact of Thames Water potentially going under as the regulator vowed to work with the sector to deal with its debt levels.

    Work and Pensions Secretary Mel Stride said there were 'contingency plans in place for any eventuality' as Thames Water battles to finance the £14 billion of debt on its books following interest rate rises.

    It comes as several reports suggested concerns about Thames Water's finances had now broadened to other firms in the industry.

    The financial health of up to four other English water companies is being monitored, according to reports.

    These include Southern Water which serves 2.6million people and Yorkshire Water with 5million customers, it is understood.

    The Times cited a Whitehall source as saying: 'A lot of these companies are highly geared and struggling.

    'There is a worst case scenario where other companies end up in the same place as Thames Water.'

    It's not particularly easy to get a good picture of the extent of the problems as the most recent published Ofwat financial stability report is for 2021/22, before the interest rate hit.
    Presumably the water utilities are not the only zombie companies loaded with debt that they will struggle to finance at higher interest rates.

    This zombie government too, for that matter.
    There’s going to be an awful lot of companies and organisations who are over-leveraged or over-indebted, and are going to be screwed by rising interest rates. The only real surprise, is that it’s taken so long for them to come into view.

    Yes, this very much includes the £2trn national debt, as governments of all colours havn’t run a budget surplus for more than two decades. If government ends up paying say 5% average on that £2trn, that’s £100bn a year in debt interest!

    As for Thames Water, if they can’t refinance their debts for a sensible amount, then the bondholders will have no choice but to enforce a bankruptcy and take over management themselves, wiping out the existing shareholders.

    Let’s not forget also, that many of these shareholders are pension funds, who saw utilities as a stable source of dividend payments over the years, and didn’t necessarily pay a lot of attention to the management of the companies.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,987
    edited June 2023
    It looks like unless Nadine is elevated to the Lords after all or gets a satisfactory explanation why she wasn't, she will stay as an MP until the next general election out of spite. There will therefore be no by election in Mid Beds after all
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,900

    Faisal Islam on R4 today hinting both government and opposition are nervous about Britain's investabilty outlook if the shareholders have to pay.

    What a mess-up. In fact that's an understatement ; what an epochal, symbolic fiasco.

    Thatcher is lauded on here as having transformed Britain for the better after the inertia of the "Post-War Concensus", creating a privatised model to envy the world. Yet some of her keystones like the selling off of public sector housing and the privatisation of utilities are birds that seem to be coming home to roost forty years on.
    As many predicted at the time, but so many were bought off with getting state assets on the cheap and the proceeds paid for tax cuts.
    I'm not saying the pre Thatcher model worked that great either BTW. We have some thinking to do in terms of how we organise things.
    But the private profit/public bailout model needs to be a thing of the past. If Thames Water is a private company then shareholders need to bear its losses. If it isn't a private company then why have shareholders been able to take so much money out of it while loading it with debt that they want consumers and taxpayers to service?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,769
    Sandpit said:

    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    Morning all.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12245685/Fears-grow-four-water-firms-Thames-Water-teeters-brink-collapse.html

    Fears are growing for four more water firms as Thames Water teeters on the brink of collapse with contingency plans reportedly being made to nationalise swathes of Britain's water industry.

    Ministers have looked to allay fears around the impact of Thames Water potentially going under as the regulator vowed to work with the sector to deal with its debt levels.

    Work and Pensions Secretary Mel Stride said there were 'contingency plans in place for any eventuality' as Thames Water battles to finance the £14 billion of debt on its books following interest rate rises.

    It comes as several reports suggested concerns about Thames Water's finances had now broadened to other firms in the industry.

    The financial health of up to four other English water companies is being monitored, according to reports.

    These include Southern Water which serves 2.6million people and Yorkshire Water with 5million customers, it is understood.

    The Times cited a Whitehall source as saying: 'A lot of these companies are highly geared and struggling.

    'There is a worst case scenario where other companies end up in the same place as Thames Water.'

    It's not particularly easy to get a good picture of the extent of the problems as the most recent published Ofwat financial stability report is for 2021/22, before the interest rate hit.
    Presumably the water utilities are not the only zombie companies loaded with debt that they will struggle to finance at higher interest rates.

    This zombie government too, for that matter.
    There’s going to be an awful lot of companies and organisations who are over-leveraged or over-indebted, and are going to be screwed by rising interest rates. The only real surprise, is that it’s taken so long for them to come into view.

    Yes, this very much includes the £2trn national debt, as governments of all colours havn’t run a budget surplus for more than two decades. If government ends up paying say 5% average on that £2trn, that’s £100bn a year in debt interest!

    As for Thames Water, if they can’t refinance their debts for a sensible amount, then the bondholders will have no choice but to enforce a bankruptcy and take over management themselves, wiping out the existing shareholders.

    Let’s not forget also, that many of these shareholders are pension funds, who saw utilities as a stable source of dividend payments over the years, and didn’t necessarily pay a lot of attention to the management of the companies.
    What is it with financial institutions that their formidably well-remunerated bosses appear to have no fucking clue what they're doing and expect us to rescue them from their stupidity?

    They really have learned nothing and forgotten nothing.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,769
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    Morning all.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12245685/Fears-grow-four-water-firms-Thames-Water-teeters-brink-collapse.html

    Fears are growing for four more water firms as Thames Water teeters on the brink of collapse with contingency plans reportedly being made to nationalise swathes of Britain's water industry.

    Ministers have looked to allay fears around the impact of Thames Water potentially going under as the regulator vowed to work with the sector to deal with its debt levels.

    Work and Pensions Secretary Mel Stride said there were 'contingency plans in place for any eventuality' as Thames Water battles to finance the £14 billion of debt on its books following interest rate rises.

    It comes as several reports suggested concerns about Thames Water's finances had now broadened to other firms in the industry.

    The financial health of up to four other English water companies is being monitored, according to reports.

    These include Southern Water which serves 2.6million people and Yorkshire Water with 5million customers, it is understood.

    The Times cited a Whitehall source as saying: 'A lot of these companies are highly geared and struggling.

    'There is a worst case scenario where other companies end up in the same place as Thames Water.'

    It's not particularly easy to get a good picture of the extent of the problems as the most recent published Ofwat financial stability report is for 2021/22, before the interest rate hit.
    At the risk of triggering @ydoethur again, it does seem as if Ofwat have not carried out their duties very well. Anyone testing financial stability should surely have included a significant interest rate rise as a clear and obvious risk, particularly when interest rates were at record lows. It wasn't so much a risk as an inevitability, only the timing was uncertain.

    This should have restricted the amount of debt they were allowed to carry, no matter how cheap it was at the time. It is absolutely basic. These companies have become bets on the gilt market but not very good ones since the betting was all one way.
    The new CEO of Thames is an ex boss of Ofwat. I struggle to see how the revolving door system will bring about an improvement in regulated industries.
    FFS, if you wanted evidence that they were far too cosy with the industry that they were supposedly regulating....
    I have a solution to this and the issue in the thread header.

    Make Nadine Dorries the CEO of Thames.

    She's used to working with a lot of shit.

    And it would solve the by-election market problem.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,900

    Faisal Islam on R4 today hinting both government and opposition are nervous about Britain's investabilty outlook if the shareholders have to pay.

    What a mess-up. In fact that's an understatement ; what an epochal, symbolic fiasco.

    Thatcher is lauded on here as having transformed Britain for the better after the inertia of the "Post-War Concensus", creating a privatised model to envy the world. Yet some of her keystones like the selling off of public sector housing and the privatisation of utilities are birds that seem to be coming home to roost forty years on.
    As i've said before, I don't think Thatcher is going to go down in history as the great, reviving prime minister many people have liked to believe for a long tome.

    Too much of what she promised has turned out to be a short-term sticking plaster, or outright fantasy, and there will always be the question having over this of what would have happened if the Continental, SDP/Liberal Alliance route had been taken instead.
    General Galtieri has a lot to answer for.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,032
    Nigelb said:

    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    Morning all.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12245685/Fears-grow-four-water-firms-Thames-Water-teeters-brink-collapse.html

    Fears are growing for four more water firms as Thames Water teeters on the brink of collapse with contingency plans reportedly being made to nationalise swathes of Britain's water industry.

    Ministers have looked to allay fears around the impact of Thames Water potentially going under as the regulator vowed to work with the sector to deal with its debt levels.

    Work and Pensions Secretary Mel Stride said there were 'contingency plans in place for any eventuality' as Thames Water battles to finance the £14 billion of debt on its books following interest rate rises.

    It comes as several reports suggested concerns about Thames Water's finances had now broadened to other firms in the industry.

    The financial health of up to four other English water companies is being monitored, according to reports.

    These include Southern Water which serves 2.6million people and Yorkshire Water with 5million customers, it is understood.

    The Times cited a Whitehall source as saying: 'A lot of these companies are highly geared and struggling.

    'There is a worst case scenario where other companies end up in the same place as Thames Water.'

    It's not particularly easy to get a good picture of the extent of the problems as the most recent published Ofwat financial stability report is for 2021/22, before the interest rate hit.
    Presumably the water utilities are not the only zombie companies loaded with debt that they will struggle to finance at higher interest rates.

    This zombie government too, for that matter.

    It would appear that Mad Nads will be found in contempt of parliament later today. That may change the dynamic. Also in need of change is that various people proffered gongs in the Boris! Dishonours list will also be found in contempt of parliament - at least Mogg and Clarke off top of my head.

    This one is pretty simple - anyone who committed contempt of parliament should have their stupid title cancelled. There can be no reward for that kind of behaviour, especially if (when?) the committee proposes sanctions.

    Good morning

    You are correct but does anyone really think anything will change

    I see Sunak has guaranteed the triple lock and will include it in the conservative manifesto and predictably Starmer has affirmed the same commitment to the triple lock

    We have another 18 months of this and frankly I doubt anything much will change with PM Starmer
    .
    The country is in decline. Public services run down or absent. Visible dirt and decay and litter because councils can't afford to employ enough staff and people have stopped caring. Vast public debt and record peacetime taxes to pay for these non-services.

    Fixing that, and giving people a brighter future, is not something where a new government can wave a magic wand. So you are right that change in the substance will be slow.

    What will change rapidly is the grift an corruption will stop. No more billions in public money stolen from us and handed to Tory donors and patrons. No more gross incompetence and uncaring sneering when people across the social demographic complain about bills / fuel / mortgages / food etc. No more illegal policies written in crayon aimed at people who don't see a problem with golliwogs.

    I like you will not vote for Starmer's Labour. But I will rejoice when the Tories get smashed as surely now is their fate.
    Hard to disagree to be fair though gross incompetence is not the sole preserve of the conservative party as time will tell
    It's not, but even a reversion to normal levels of competence and graft will be a meaningful improvement on the status quo.

    That's what's so infuriating about the Conservatives right now.
    This is not just a tory issue its a how the country is run issue. The same bunch of people are in power and bar a bit of spin follow the same policies. Macquarie who are getting criticised for Thames debt bought the company in 2006 under Blair. Blair Brown Cameron Boris none of them have have actually done that much to reform the state and address its fundamental weaknesses.

    As I observed yesterday.

    Our most intractable problems are at least a couple of decades in the making. We need to realise that it will take as long to sort them out, and stop pretending it can be done in an electoral cycle or two.
    But it needs to be started on now.
    The disaster in the water industry is yet another example of the negative consequences of super low interest rates imposed by the BoE for more than a decade after the GFC. Basically, the model was that they could borrow at super low rates, invest a chunk of that money with the statutory right of a higher rate of return on it through water bills and take the surplus off as dividends. The whole model is predicated on interest rates being below the rate of return. How could anyone ever think this was going to be the case indefinitely?
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