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The Tory polling recovery has come to an end – politicalbetting.com

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  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,663
    Ratters said:

    Heathener said:

    To @MikeSmithson I'd add that this is not just about Boris, although some of it is.

    Boris is definitely part of the problem because he reached a wing of voters, mainly northern red wall ones, who Sunak not only doesn't reach, but whom he has alienated. Boris has not gone away. Or, rather, by his exile he is reminding them of what they no longer have. Remember, they did not vote for Sunak. Every time Boris sticks his column in the Mail he's enflaming them against Sunak. These are also largely the 2019 stayaways who Mike has been warning about.

    But there are two other whammies

    One is the mortgage crisis, which is awful.

    The other inflation, ditto.

    And what are Labour going to do about inflation?

    I haven't seem any convincing answers to @Pulpstar 's excellent questions this morning.
    We have three problems: low growth, high inflation and a high deficit.

    Not possible to solve all three at once from this starting point.

    Labour could try for 2 out of three either by tax rises and spending cuts. For example, removing the triple lock or increasing income tax. Helps reduce inflation and the deficit.

    But that would be politically brave. If they can at least hold off from inflationary spending (see: universal energy price cap, proposed tax cuts) that'd be a good start.

    Otherwise, sack Bailey and replace him with an inflation hawk.
    Wealth tax
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 3,784
    viewcode said:

    Taz said:

    viewcode said:

    Taz said:

    viewcode said:

    viewcode said:
    So which one of you is Spartacus?
    I think we are all Spartacus in some way. Although hopefully not the "crucified on the Appian Way" way, because that would be...bad. :smiley:
    I am he as you are he and you are me and we are all together…..
    Third Doctor: "...Jo, it's quite simple. I am he and he is me"
    Jo Grant: "...and we are all together, koo koo kichoo"
    Second Doctor: "What"
    Jo Grant: "It's a song by the Beatles..."

    (The Three Doctors, 1973)
    Yay, You’ve redeemed yourself after the Terror of the Autons miss 😀😀😀😀

    Here’s some seventies kitsch.

    https://youtu.be/DNuco0p55dc
    Thank you for the link, which I watched with gr...oh my goodness it was awful. Well, to be honest, it wasn't bad, and certainly not rubbish, but very of its time.

    Two weeks before: Mike and Bernie Winters! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=foGD5DbLJck
    I am holding you both responsible for tonight's 'Nam style flashbacks to 70s Britain.


  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 4,839
    edited June 2023
    dixiedean said:

    Heathener said:

    To @MikeSmithson I'd add that this is not just about Boris, although some of it is.

    Boris is definitely part of the problem because he reached a wing of voters, mainly northern red wall ones, who Sunak not only doesn't reach, but whom he has alienated. Boris has not gone away. Or, rather, by his exile he is reminding them of what they no longer have. Remember, they did not vote for Sunak. Every time Boris sticks his column in the Mail he's enflaming them against Sunak. These are also largely the 2019 stayaways who Mike has been warning about.

    But there are two other whammies

    One is the mortgage crisis, which is awful.

    The other inflation, ditto.

    And what are Labour going to do about inflation?

    I haven't seem any convincing answers to @Pulpstar 's excellent questions this morning.
    There is a tipping point where the evils of inflation have to be balanced against the evils of repossessions and recession.

    Interest rates are the BoE's only weapon. I heard the analogy that it's like playing the US Masters with just a 3 iron.

    I suspect Reeves with her backstory may be more imaginative than Sunak and Hunt. I hope she is anyway.
    So, she either has to do exactly the same thing she's currently attacking the Government for doing, or we're crossing our fingers and hoping she has some magic beans instead then?

    Right!
    I don't know.

    I suspect if you wanted to point a finger at anyone for dropping the ball it's Bailey and the BoE. They were advised to raise interest rates far earlier than they did. Maybe a quick, shorter, sharper shock would be more effective.

    You could also question Hunt as to why he has only met the mortgage provider Lobby today when the likes of Martin Lewis were advising action would be needed in 2023 last November.

    Maybe Reeves has some ideas, maybe not. Your lot are clean out of them.
    On which point. What is the point of a quarter or half point rise tomorrow when everyone knows there will be at least two more?
    They are priced in.
    Why not a full point tomorrow?
    Get it over and done with.
    Can someone explain?
    I'll make a guess.

    A huge increase all in one go will look like panic. The Bank has to pretend that it's in control, even when it probably isn't. If, for arguments' sake, an immediate hike were made to 5.5%, then market expectations for peak interest rates would probably go up from 6% to 7% or 8% (accompanied, ironically, by a tanking of the pound, higher interest rates being outweighed by the expectation of a nasty recession.) Beyond that, Bailey is probably keeping his fingers crossed that anticipation of deteriorating economic conditions will be enough to avert the much-feared wage-price spiral and negate the need for further rises - before he really is forced to hike interest rates to 7% or 8%.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208

    Heathener said:

    To @MikeSmithson I'd add that this is not just about Boris, although some of it is.

    Boris is definitely part of the problem because he reached a wing of voters, mainly northern red wall ones, who Sunak not only doesn't reach, but whom he has alienated. Boris has not gone away. Or, rather, by his exile he is reminding them of what they no longer have. Remember, they did not vote for Sunak. Every time Boris sticks his column in the Mail he's enflaming them against Sunak. These are also largely the 2019 stayaways who Mike has been warning about.

    But there are two other whammies

    One is the mortgage crisis, which is awful.

    The other inflation, ditto.

    And what are Labour going to do about inflation?

    I haven't seem any convincing answers to @Pulpstar 's excellent questions this morning.
    Nothing in particular ... and ... So what? ... are the two answers to your question.

    Labour are going to win the next election. They don't need to demonstrate they can do what the Conservatives find impossible.
  • MiklosvarMiklosvar Posts: 1,855
    viewcode said:

    Miklosvar said:

    viewcode said:

    Miklosvar said:

    Miklosvar said:

    Miklosvar said:

    WillG said:

    There’s an old joke from Glasgow:

    “Are you Catholic or Protestant?”
    “Neither, I’m Atheist.”
    “Aye, but are you a Catholic Atheist or a Protestant Atheist?”

    That’s the problem with ‘cis’ - it buys into the belief system, it assumes you have a ‘gender identity’……

    Insisting everyone has a ‘gender identity’ is akin to insisting everyone has a ‘soul’. It’s not insulting in itself, but if you keep on about it and can’t grasp that some people don’t share your belief, then they might get narked at you.

    “But ‘cis’ just means the opposite of ‘trans’!”

    Great - so what does ‘trans’ mean? It can’t be defined without referring to ‘gender identity’, a metaphysical belief.


    https://twitter.com/bencooper/status/1671533767691759621?s=20

    That's rubbish. Of course everyone has a gender identity. I think of myself as male. Even if you are the sort of person that thinks all trans people are mentally deluded, any everyone by rights should have the same gender and biological sex, gender identity still provably exists. In the way that a soul isn't provable.
    How do you prove your gender? How do you test for it?

    Your sex is in your chromosomes and for the overwhelming majority demonstrated in their reproductive organs. It’s binary in the overwhelming majority of mammals.

    How many genders are there?

    107?

    https://www.sexualdiversity.org/edu/1111.php

    If not, how many? And how do you prove it?

    Gender is a social construct and a belief system.

    Unsurprisingly some are rejecting compelled belief and compelled speech.
    If we accept gender is a social construct,
    If it’s not a social construct what is it?

    If I say “I don’t believe in god” I’m not instantly denounced for promoting a Christian/Muslim genocide, of denying the existence of Christians, or having the police set upon me for hate speech. The trans community have been very poorly served by the authoritarian “no debate” trans activists.
    Yes, I am sure the issue faced by the trans community is the actions of *some* trans activists. And not, say, those who try to belittle them, make them out to be a threat, and worse.

    I mean, obviously the hated we see toSTFwards trans people is absolutely *not* an issue they face, is it?
    I have no doubt there are groups of men who go around in cities identifying and beating up trans people, just as they identify and beat up gays and immigrants. That is appalling and, happily, illegal. but I have never seen anything identified on the internet as "hatred of trans people" which turned out on closer inspection to be anything other than a polite suggestion that women should be allowed their own hospital wards, and sporting contests. The people who go "Waaah" about this are doing a great disservice to the victims of the behaviour identified in sentence 1 above.
    If you don't see it, then I suggest you look a little harder. Or, for your sanity, don't.

    As a matter of interest, how do you define 'hatred' ?
    That is an evasion, and just not good enough. Link, or stfu. In the mean time, the most hated "trans hater" I as a general internet consumer am aware of is JKR, and she has never said anything not entirely reasonable, nor anything which could be construed as hatred of anyone.
    STFU?

    I might suggest you take your own 'advice'.

    But if you want a generalised take, from an OGH-friendly source:
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-50166900
    or:
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-48756370

    It happens, and it is real.
    "STFU" is entirely permissible, as a counter to your refusal to produce evidence. Otherwise it's not.

    Your links are to an "Anti-bullying charity" and to the recording of "transgender hate crimes" by English police forces. Not what I call primary evidence. Have another go.
    I'm not sure "recording of "transgender hate crimes" by English police forces" doesn't constitute primary evidence, except in the sense of being one step distant from the event. Are you asking for actual recordings of trans-bashing?

    "I'm not sure "recording of "transgender hate crimes" by English police forces" doesn't constitute primary evidence, except in the sense of being one step distant from the event" is beautiful. "you are calling this secondary evidence, but there is no evidence fir it being secondary, except the fact that it is secondary."

    Substantively, the answer to your point is that the evidence is entirely dubject to the judgment of plod, and to rather odd statutory constraints about how you define a hate crime. If I say here and now that I think JKR has a point about woman-only spaces, that is hate speech. Apparently.
    You seem to have misunderstood me. I was asking what level of evidence would suffice. Apologies if my meaning was obscure.
    It wasn't obscure, it was simply wrong. Primary is not secondary, in the same sense as one is not two. This is not difficult stuff.

    But again i will give you a substantive repsponse. Evidence of trans hatred would be convictions for trans bashing, criminal penalties for trans behaviour similar to gay behaviour prior to SOA 1967, and so on.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    To days news is wall to wall financial crisis with the elephant in the room being Brexit. Now that Johnson has gone commentators and others seem much less restrained in mentioning the great unmentionable. There's hardly anyone still talking it up or even prepared to defend it.

    Surely someone has got to mobilise the 17,000,000 (Now more likely to be 25,000,000) or they're going to get bounced around by this economic storm like everyone else and without even a loin cloth.

    Time for someone with courage or ambition to go for it.

    Personally, I have given up on the UK rejoining. I found it a lot easier to let my UK passport expire and just start using my Irish one.
    Are you allowed to have both? A friend has just got herself an Austrian passport which they'll give to any family of Austrian refugees from WW2 however many generations down the line and they can keep their UK one. You're very fortunate. In France people with properties are trying to invent the most crazy schemes to circumvent the rules. The French are now bringing in a non dom property tax which you can't blame them for doing. If Boris ever finds his way to the Cote d'Azur he'll be strung up
    The Irish do not mind their citizens being dual passport holders - and a lot of other countries are the same.
    The blue UK passport is much devalued since we left. And that was allegedly our key to sovereignty and the reason for leaving. What a joke!
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 3,784
    Taz said:

    ohnotnow said:

    Taz said:

    ohnotnow said:

    viewcode said:

    Taz said:

    viewcode said:

    viewcode said:
    So which one of you is Spartacus?
    I think we are all Spartacus in some way. Although hopefully not the "crucified on the Appian Way" way, because that would be...bad. :smiley:
    I am he as you are he and you are me and we are all together…..
    Third Doctor: "...Jo, it's quite simple. I am he and he is me"
    Jo Grant: "...and we are all together, koo koo kichoo"
    Second Doctor: "What"
    Jo Grant: "It's a song by the Beatles..."

    (The Three Doctors, 1973)
    Look at you with your Pertwee-era references. It'll be The War Games quotes next.
    If only the Doctor had said ‘that one looks like Karl Marx’ when being shown the pictures of what his future self could look like. 😀
    Pertwee was the most right-on leftie Doctor of all. Always in contact with 'The Peace Party' and personal friend of Chairman Mao. Probably knew Corbyn.

    Somewhat in the opposite direction - it's a long time since I watched The Brain of Morbius. You've just cost me a few nights viewing!

    Good news, Brain of Morbius is a belter.

    Pertwee was not only right on and pretty left wing, as a doctor, he also enjoyed sparring with petty pen pushers and bureaucrats like Walker in Sea Devils, Brownrose in Terror of the Autons and Chinn in Claws of Axos.

    Now I have a dilemma. Do I watch an episode,of Dalziel and Pascoe and some seaside specials while working from home or do I watch Ambassadors of Death and Mind of Evil.
    Ooft. Mind of Evil, surely!
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    Roger said:

    To days news is wall to wall financial crisis with the elephant in the room being Brexit. Now that Johnson has gone commentators and others seem much less restrained in mentioning the great unmentionable. There's hardly anyone still talking it up or even prepared to defend it.

    Surely someone has got to mobilise the 17,000,000 (Now more likely to be 25,000,000) or they're going to get bounced around by this economic storm like everyone else and without even a loin cloth.

    Time for someone with courage or ambition to go for it.

    Oh God, you've said this 6 trillion times. We get it. Enuff
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,871
    viewcode said:

    Miklosvar said:

    Miklosvar said:

    Miklosvar said:

    WillG said:

    There’s an old joke from Glasgow:

    “Are you Catholic or Protestant?”
    “Neither, I’m Atheist.”
    “Aye, but are you a Catholic Atheist or a Protestant Atheist?”

    That’s the problem with ‘cis’ - it buys into the belief system, it assumes you have a ‘gender identity’……

    Insisting everyone has a ‘gender identity’ is akin to insisting everyone has a ‘soul’. It’s not insulting in itself, but if you keep on about it and can’t grasp that some people don’t share your belief, then they might get narked at you.

    “But ‘cis’ just means the opposite of ‘trans’!”

    Great - so what does ‘trans’ mean? It can’t be defined without referring to ‘gender identity’, a metaphysical belief.


    https://twitter.com/bencooper/status/1671533767691759621?s=20

    That's rubbish. Of course everyone has a gender identity. I think of myself as male. Even if you are the sort of person that thinks all trans people are mentally deluded, any everyone by rights should have the same gender and biological sex, gender identity still provably exists. In the way that a soul isn't provable.
    How do you prove your gender? How do you test for it?

    Your sex is in your chromosomes and for the overwhelming majority demonstrated in their reproductive organs. It’s binary in the overwhelming majority of mammals.

    How many genders are there?

    107?

    https://www.sexualdiversity.org/edu/1111.php

    If not, how many? And how do you prove it?

    Gender is a social construct and a belief system.

    Unsurprisingly some are rejecting compelled belief and compelled speech.
    If we accept gender is a social construct,
    If it’s not a social construct what is it?

    If I say “I don’t believe in god” I’m not instantly denounced for promoting a Christian/Muslim genocide, of denying the existence of Christians, or having the police set upon me for hate speech. The trans community have been very poorly served by the authoritarian “no debate” trans activists.
    Yes, I am sure the issue faced by the trans community is the actions of *some* trans activists. And not, say, those who try to belittle them, make them out to be a threat, and worse.

    I mean, obviously the hated we see toSTFwards trans people is absolutely *not* an issue they face, is it?
    I have no doubt there are groups of men who go around in cities identifying and beating up trans people, just as they identify and beat up gays and immigrants. That is appalling and, happily, illegal. but I have never seen anything identified on the internet as "hatred of trans people" which turned out on closer inspection to be anything other than a polite suggestion that women should be allowed their own hospital wards, and sporting contests. The people who go "Waaah" about this are doing a great disservice to the victims of the behaviour identified in sentence 1 above.
    If you don't see it, then I suggest you look a little harder. Or, for your sanity, don't.

    As a matter of interest, how do you define 'hatred' ?
    That is an evasion, and just not good enough. Link, or stfu. In the mean time, the most hated "trans hater" I as a general internet consumer am aware of is JKR, and she has never said anything not entirely reasonable, nor anything which could be construed as hatred of anyone.
    STFU?

    I might suggest you take your own 'advice'.

    But if you want a generalised take, from an OGH-friendly source:
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-50166900
    or:
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-48756370

    It happens, and it is real.
    "STFU" is entirely permissible, as a counter to your refusal to produce evidence. Otherwise it's not.

    Your links are to an "Anti-bullying charity" and to the recording of "transgender hate crimes" by English police forces. Not what I call primary evidence. Have another go.
    I'm not sure "recording of "transgender hate crimes" by English police forces" doesn't constitute primary evidence, except in the sense of being one step distant from the event. Are you asking for actual recordings of trans-bashing?

    Given the polices record on identifying crimes, such as arresting people for the crime of walking around a lake together and having a coffee .....well sorry I don't take the police figures at all seriously they are a joke that makes the keystone cops look like a serious law and order outfit.

  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 4,839

    🙉 Hear there were some serious truth bombs at the 1922 Committee in address by @FrankLuntz to Tory MPs.

    Said anyone with a 15k or less majority is "at this moment in time" under threat of losing their seat - added: "this is what CCHQ are not telling you."….

    Luntz also said while he counted Boris Johnson as a friend, the ex-PM was "behaving horribly" and "Trumpian" and said "he needs to go away."

    Some grim gallows humour from Tory MPs in - what were previously not considered - marginal seats... some wondering what to do next. 2/2


    https://twitter.com/MrHarryCole/status/1671565931405770757?s=20

    I would've thought that about half of the Parliamentary Conservative Party are defending majorities of under 15,000. That implies a 1997-level defeat. Though then again, if we have a mortgage crisis and stagflation at the same time in 2024, the remaining half of the Tory MPs would probably take a result like that with a sigh of relief.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368
    dixiedean said:

    Heathener said:

    To @MikeSmithson I'd add that this is not just about Boris, although some of it is.

    Boris is definitely part of the problem because he reached a wing of voters, mainly northern red wall ones, who Sunak not only doesn't reach, but whom he has alienated. Boris has not gone away. Or, rather, by his exile he is reminding them of what they no longer have. Remember, they did not vote for Sunak. Every time Boris sticks his column in the Mail he's enflaming them against Sunak. These are also largely the 2019 stayaways who Mike has been warning about.

    But there are two other whammies

    One is the mortgage crisis, which is awful.

    The other inflation, ditto.

    And what are Labour going to do about inflation?

    I haven't seem any convincing answers to @Pulpstar 's excellent questions this morning.
    There is a tipping point where the evils of inflation have to be balanced against the evils of repossessions and recession.

    Interest rates are the BoE's only weapon. I heard the analogy that it's like playing the US Masters with just a 3 iron.

    I suspect Reeves with her backstory may be more imaginative than Sunak and Hunt. I hope she is anyway.
    So, she either has to do exactly the same thing she's currently attacking the Government for doing, or we're crossing our fingers and hoping she has some magic beans instead then?

    Right!
    I don't know.

    I suspect if you wanted to point a finger at anyone for dropping the ball it's Bailey and the BoE. They were advised to raise interest rates far earlier than they did. Maybe a quick, shorter, sharper shock would be more effective.

    You could also question Hunt as to why he has only met the mortgage provider Lobby today when the likes of Martin Lewis were advising action would be needed in 2023 last November.

    Maybe Reeves has some ideas, maybe not. Your lot are clean out of them.
    On which point. What is the point of a quarter or half point rise tomorrow when everyone knows there will be at least two more?
    They are priced in.
    Why not a full point tomorrow?
    Get it over and done with.
    Can someone explain?
    That makes sense. They can always claw some back if it looks excessive down the line. Don't you think it might be a full half a percentage point tomorrow?
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,385
    ohnotnow said:

    Taz said:

    ohnotnow said:

    Taz said:

    ohnotnow said:

    viewcode said:

    Taz said:

    viewcode said:

    viewcode said:
    So which one of you is Spartacus?
    I think we are all Spartacus in some way. Although hopefully not the "crucified on the Appian Way" way, because that would be...bad. :smiley:
    I am he as you are he and you are me and we are all together…..
    Third Doctor: "...Jo, it's quite simple. I am he and he is me"
    Jo Grant: "...and we are all together, koo koo kichoo"
    Second Doctor: "What"
    Jo Grant: "It's a song by the Beatles..."

    (The Three Doctors, 1973)
    Look at you with your Pertwee-era references. It'll be The War Games quotes next.
    If only the Doctor had said ‘that one looks like Karl Marx’ when being shown the pictures of what his future self could look like. 😀
    Pertwee was the most right-on leftie Doctor of all. Always in contact with 'The Peace Party' and personal friend of Chairman Mao. Probably knew Corbyn.

    Somewhat in the opposite direction - it's a long time since I watched The Brain of Morbius. You've just cost me a few nights viewing!

    Good news, Brain of Morbius is a belter.

    Pertwee was not only right on and pretty left wing, as a doctor, he also enjoyed sparring with petty pen pushers and bureaucrats like Walker in Sea Devils, Brownrose in Terror of the Autons and Chinn in Claws of Axos.

    Now I have a dilemma. Do I watch an episode,of Dalziel and Pascoe and some seaside specials while working from home or do I watch Ambassadors of Death and Mind of Evil.
    Ooft. Mind of Evil, surely!
    For me it always has a special importance as, in the very early days of video collecting, this was the only Pertwee story you could not get. Only part 3 seemed to be around.

    I’ll dust it out.

    Still blows my mind the great job babelcolour did on part 1 colouring it frame by frame long before any modern AI technology existed.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Take Bobby Kennedy Jr. Seriously, Not Literally

    "Sixty-six percent of registered voters think Biden is too old to be president and 59 percent have doubts about his mental fitness, according to a Harvard CAPS-Harris poll conducted last week."

    "Biden is a weak candidate against almost any Republican, including Trump, and he’s probably even weaker with Kamala Harris as his running mate."

    https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/20/opinion/robert-kennedy-democrat-president-2024.html

    Had Bobby Kennedy not been shot he not Humphrey would likely have been Democratic nominee in 1968 and he would probably have beaten Nixon then to win the Presidency. Could Robert Kennedy Jnr do what his father narrowly missed, remember LBJ like Biden was at one stage hoping to run again as incumbent President
    Even of primary Kennedy supporters they are supporting him because they know little about him beyond his family name. Only 12% of his own supporters go for his views/policies with 4% going for would do a good job, vs combined 57% for family connections/want to know more/is a democrat/would consider any candidate.

    https://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/23825119/cnn-poll-2024-democratic-primary.pdf

    What is the main reason you would consider supporEng Robert F. Kennedy, Jr.? [OPEN-END]
    May 17-20, 2023
    Kennedy name/Family connecaons 20%
    Do not know enough/Want to learn more 17%
    Support his views/policies 12%
    Would consider any candidate/Open-minded 10%
    Is a Democrat/Not a Republican 10%
    Qualified/Has poliacal experience 7%
    Support any Democrat over Trump/Is not Trump 5%
    Not Biden/Alternaave to Biden 4%
    Would do a good job/Is a good leader 4%
    Environmental posiaons/Climate 4%
    Could win 3%
    Someone new/Fresh face/Fresh ideas 3%
    Age/Younger 3%
    Could step in if Biden unable 1%
    Other 9%
    No opinion 8%
    If he combines fans of the Kennedy brand with leftwingers who voted for Sanders in the 2020 Democratic primaries, he could yet run Biden close.

    Not only Bobby Kennedy under LBJ's Presidency in 1968 but Ted Kennedy too v Carter in 1980 shows Kennedys are not afraid of challenging incumbent Democratic Presidents. Ted Kennedy also backed Obama in 2008 v establishment frontrunner Hillary Clinton
    Bonkers. He would have more chance in the Republican primary.
    He is bonkers, yes.

    And I hope he has no chance in any primary. Even Trump isn't quite as bad as he is.
    Allow me to repeat, RFKJR is just another Trumpist electoral prank. As with Ye 2020.

    For starters in 2023 designed to sprinkle a bit o' sand in the Biden 2024 campaign gas tank. NOT enough to disable or even close, but something to gun up the works.

    For 2024 primaries and maybe beyond, aimed at taking small stripes off of Uncle Joe's hide.

    Which in close state and/or national situation MIGHT be the racers edge.
    Fairly telling that one of Musk's tech billionaire mates is funding him.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    To days news is wall to wall financial crisis with the elephant in the room being Brexit. Now that Johnson has gone commentators and others seem much less restrained in mentioning the great unmentionable. There's hardly anyone still talking it up or even prepared to defend it.

    Surely someone has got to mobilise the 17,000,000 (Now more likely to be 25,000,000) or they're going to get bounced around by this economic storm like everyone else and without even a loin cloth.

    Time for someone with courage or ambition to go for it.

    Personally, I have given up on the UK rejoining. I found it a lot easier to let my UK passport expire and just start using my Irish one.
    Are you allowed to have both? A friend has just got herself an Austrian passport which they'll give to any family of Austrian refugees from WW2 however many generations down the line and they can keep their UK one. You're very fortunate. In France people with properties are trying to invent the most crazy schemes to circumvent the rules. The French are now bringing in a non dom property tax which you can't blame them for doing. If Boris ever finds his way to the Cote d'Azur he'll be strung up
    The Irish do not mind their citizens being dual passport holders - and a lot of other countries are the same.
    You’ve made your passport point repeatedly and it’s both boring and utterly defeating. If you don’t want to be British and see no hope for the future of the country, that’s fine, absolutely fine, but either keep it to yourself or please step aside from any political activity and leave it to us progressives who want to make things better for our remaining compatriots. People, rightly or wrongly, take it as a slap in the face.

    This “I’ve binned my British passport” is toxic on the doorsteps and comes across than little more than taking your toys home or “I’m all right Jack”ism. If you want to identify as a different nationality, that’s fine, but step aside. It’s a personal choice not a political point. There’s a whole middle ground between wrapping yourself in the flag and burning it.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,871
    Farooq said:

    Pagan2 said:

    WillG said:

    There’s an old joke from Glasgow:

    “Are you Catholic or Protestant?”
    “Neither, I’m Atheist.”
    “Aye, but are you a Catholic Atheist or a Protestant Atheist?”

    That’s the problem with ‘cis’ - it buys into the belief system, it assumes you have a ‘gender identity’……

    Insisting everyone has a ‘gender identity’ is akin to insisting everyone has a ‘soul’. It’s not insulting in itself, but if you keep on about it and can’t grasp that some people don’t share your belief, then they might get narked at you.

    “But ‘cis’ just means the opposite of ‘trans’!”

    Great - so what does ‘trans’ mean? It can’t be defined without referring to ‘gender identity’, a metaphysical belief.


    https://twitter.com/bencooper/status/1671533767691759621?s=20

    That's rubbish. Of course everyone has a gender identity. I think of myself as male. Even if you are the sort of person that thinks all trans people are mentally deluded, any everyone by rights should have the same gender and biological sex, gender identity still provably exists. In the way that a soul isn't provable.
    How do you prove your gender? How do you test for it?

    Your sex is in your chromosomes and for the overwhelming majority demonstrated in their reproductive organs. It’s binary in the overwhelming majority of mammals.

    How many genders are there?

    107?

    https://www.sexualdiversity.org/edu/1111.php

    If not, how many? And how do you prove it?

    Gender is a social construct and a belief system.

    Unsurprisingly some are rejecting compelled belief and compelled speech.
    If we accept gender is a social construct, does that mean that we should ignore gender in law? Should we support or make life difficult for people who want to change gender?

    Ethnicity is a social construct. Religion is a social construct. These things have protection in law (albeit different ones). Money is a social construct. Democracy is a social construct. Lots of interesting and nice things are social constructs!
    Religion certainly shouldn't be protected by law, nor ethnicity. Democracy and money aren't protected already you are free to advocate for a dictatorship or a cash free society based on barter
    There's a big difference between advocating for political change and just doing stuff.

    You can advocate for dictatorship.
    You can advocate for racist policies too.

    But you can't just set yourself up as a dictator. And you can't go around enacting racist workplace policies for example. Because the laws forbid those.

    Freedom to say what you think should be the case is different to acting like it's already the case.
    So if I walk round with an "( insert deity of choice) is an arsehole" tshirt on do you think the likely result is a) I will get a few people shaking their head or b) I get arrested

    I suspect we all know the answer is b)

    So it is ok to proclaim "(deity of choice) is great" but not the opposite. Each are equally valid as opinions



  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,075
    ohnotnow said:

    viewcode said:

    ohnotnow said:

    viewcode said:

    Taz said:

    viewcode said:

    viewcode said:
    So which one of you is Spartacus?
    I think we are all Spartacus in some way. Although hopefully not the "crucified on the Appian Way" way, because that would be...bad. :smiley:
    I am he as you are he and you are me and we are all together…..
    Third Doctor: "...Jo, it's quite simple. I am he and he is me"
    Jo Grant: "...and we are all together, koo koo kichoo"
    Second Doctor: "What"
    Jo Grant: "It's a song by the Beatles..."

    (The Three Doctors, 1973)
    Look at you with your Pertwee-era references. It'll be The War Games quotes next.
    Hah! Trick question! ("The War Games" was Troughton. Unless you meant the "WarGames"? Or "The War Game")
    I meant you'd go juuuust a bit further back. I wasn't going to test you on Hartnell - that would just be too much.... ;-)
    Pertwee is before my time, but his era was a banger - they showed his shows on the Horror Channel a few years back. From the start of Three/Jo Grant to about the end of Four/Sarah-Jane (possibly Four/Leela but not K9) was about as good as the classic serial ever got. After that it was just bits and bobs until it died of neglect and JNT... :(
  • Clutch_BromptonClutch_Brompton Posts: 737
    edited June 2023
    pigeon said:

    🙉 Hear there were some serious truth bombs at the 1922 Committee in address by @FrankLuntz to Tory MPs.

    Said anyone with a 15k or less majority is "at this moment in time" under threat of losing their seat - added: "this is what CCHQ are not telling you."….

    Luntz also said while he counted Boris Johnson as a friend, the ex-PM was "behaving horribly" and "Trumpian" and said "he needs to go away."

    Some grim gallows humour from Tory MPs in - what were previously not considered - marginal seats... some wondering what to do next. 2/2


    https://twitter.com/MrHarryCole/status/1671565931405770757?s=20

    I would've thought that about half of the Parliamentary Conservative Party are defending majorities of under 15,000. That implies a 1997-level defeat. Though then again, if we have a mortgage crisis and stagflation at the same time in 2024, the remaining half of the Tory MPs would probably take a result like that with a sigh of relief.
    Some with more than 15,000 majorities would be far from safe where the polls are now. Its probable that won't be true at the GE but given Mr Sunak's political skills and campaigning ability we could lurch into a 2017 style Con campaign and then who knows?
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208
    We seem to be getting a bit testy on here. Is it the sultry nights?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277

    Brussels to allow installation of spyware on journalists’ phones and laptops
    The EU’s decision to give intrusive surveillance of reporters the green light has put their sources at risk of identification

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/journalist-spyware-eu-surveillance-sources-3lfnqqznr (£££)

    Hence, Brexit
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,663

    Heathener said:

    To @MikeSmithson I'd add that this is not just about Boris, although some of it is.

    Boris is definitely part of the problem because he reached a wing of voters, mainly northern red wall ones, who Sunak not only doesn't reach, but whom he has alienated. Boris has not gone away. Or, rather, by his exile he is reminding them of what they no longer have. Remember, they did not vote for Sunak. Every time Boris sticks his column in the Mail he's enflaming them against Sunak. These are also largely the 2019 stayaways who Mike has been warning about.

    But there are two other whammies

    One is the mortgage crisis, which is awful.

    The other inflation, ditto.

    And what are Labour going to do about inflation?

    I haven't seem any convincing answers to @Pulpstar 's excellent questions this morning.
    The first thing Labour are going to do about inflation is (correctly) point out that it is the Tories who got us here.

    Sunak's approach on inflation maybe the correct one - it maybe the only sensible one - but the Tories have made a lot of mistakes with the economy; the country is unlikely to risk them making any more for some time to come.
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 4,839

    pigeon said:

    🙉 Hear there were some serious truth bombs at the 1922 Committee in address by @FrankLuntz to Tory MPs.

    Said anyone with a 15k or less majority is "at this moment in time" under threat of losing their seat - added: "this is what CCHQ are not telling you."….

    Luntz also said while he counted Boris Johnson as a friend, the ex-PM was "behaving horribly" and "Trumpian" and said "he needs to go away."

    Some grim gallows humour from Tory MPs in - what were previously not considered - marginal seats... some wondering what to do next. 2/2


    https://twitter.com/MrHarryCole/status/1671565931405770757?s=20

    I would've thought that about half of the Parliamentary Conservative Party are defending majorities of under 15,000. That implies a 1997-level defeat. Though then again, if we have a mortgage crisis and stagflation at the same time in 2024, the remaining half of the Tory MPs would probably take a result like that with a sigh of relief.
    Some with more that 15,000 majorities would be far from safe where the polls are now. Its probable that won't be true at the GE but given Mr Sunak's political skills and campaigning ability we could lurch into a 2017 style Tory campaign and then who knows?
    Personally I don't think that the Tories will do nearly as badly as 1997, simply because the median age of the electorate has increased in the last 25 years, and the well-to-do over-50s will likely still turn out for them. But we shall see.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    Leon said:

    Brussels to allow installation of spyware on journalists’ phones and laptops
    The EU’s decision to give intrusive surveillance of reporters the green light has put their sources at risk of identification

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/journalist-spyware-eu-surveillance-sources-3lfnqqznr (£££)

    Hence, Brexit
    You think Cruella doesn't want to do that?
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,385
    viewcode said:

    ohnotnow said:

    viewcode said:

    ohnotnow said:

    viewcode said:

    Taz said:

    viewcode said:

    viewcode said:
    So which one of you is Spartacus?
    I think we are all Spartacus in some way. Although hopefully not the "crucified on the Appian Way" way, because that would be...bad. :smiley:
    I am he as you are he and you are me and we are all together…..
    Third Doctor: "...Jo, it's quite simple. I am he and he is me"
    Jo Grant: "...and we are all together, koo koo kichoo"
    Second Doctor: "What"
    Jo Grant: "It's a song by the Beatles..."

    (The Three Doctors, 1973)
    Look at you with your Pertwee-era references. It'll be The War Games quotes next.
    Hah! Trick question! ("The War Games" was Troughton. Unless you meant the "WarGames"? Or "The War Game")
    I meant you'd go juuuust a bit further back. I wasn't going to test you on Hartnell - that would just be too much.... ;-)
    Pertwee is before my time, but his era was a banger - they showed his shows on the Horror Channel a few years back. From the start of Three/Jo Grant to about the end of Four/Sarah-Jane (possibly Four/Leela but not K9) was about as good as the classic serial ever got. After that it was just bits and bobs until it died of neglect and JNT... :(
    For me the third Hartnell series was as good as it got for classic who, the troughton era was hugely overrated and benefited from peoples fond memories in eighties fandom and once episodes started returning they were mostly meh.

    Season 7 through to 14, I’d agree, magnificent. But season 16 and 17 are just great fun too.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,663
    FF43 said:

    We seem to be getting a bit testy on here. Is it the sultry nights?

    Sultry nights? Where are you?

    It's been dropping to 8 - 12°C every night here in Dorset in recent weeks - nice and fresh.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208
    Macron is emotional about France extracting as much advantage as it can out of the UK's weakened position.

    Philip Hammond to Andrew Marr:
    "There's no way back into the EU on any terms the British people would find acceptable... [but side-deals will come because while] President Macron feels that Britain must pay a price he won't be there forever and other leaders are less emotional".


    https://twitter.com/goodclimate/status/1671569068262817810

  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,717
    https://kyivindependent.com/pentagons-accounting-error-provides-ukraine-with/ …further $6.2 billion in military aid

    The U.S. Defense Department overestimated the value of arms sent to Ukraine over the past two years by $6.2 billion. The unspent sum will be used for further military aid, Pentagon spokesperson Sabrina Singh said on June 21.

    "In a significant number of cases, services used replacement costs rather than net book value, thereby overestimating the value of the equipment drawn down from U.S. stocks and provided to Ukraine," Singh explained.

    The surplus will return to the allocated fund for Ukraine, to be used for future expenses.

    According to the Pentagon's final calculations, there was an error of $2.6 billion in the 2022 fiscal year and $3.6 billion in the 2023 fiscal year.

  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    To days news is wall to wall financial crisis with the elephant in the room being Brexit. Now that Johnson has gone commentators and others seem much less restrained in mentioning the great unmentionable. There's hardly anyone still talking it up or even prepared to defend it.

    Surely someone has got to mobilise the 17,000,000 (Now more likely to be 25,000,000) or they're going to get bounced around by this economic storm like everyone else and without even a loin cloth.

    Time for someone with courage or ambition to go for it.

    Personally, I have given up on the UK rejoining. I found it a lot easier to let my UK passport expire and just start using my Irish one.
    Are you allowed to have both? A friend has just got herself an Austrian passport which they'll give to any family of Austrian refugees from WW2 however many generations down the line and they can keep their UK one. You're very fortunate. In France people with properties are trying to invent the most crazy schemes to circumvent the rules. The French are now bringing in a non dom property tax which you can't blame them for doing. If Boris ever finds his way to the Cote d'Azur he'll be strung up
    The Irish do not mind their citizens being dual passport holders - and a lot of other countries are the same.
    The blue UK passport is much devalued since we left. And that was allegedly our key to sovereignty and the reason for leaving. What a joke!
    I wouldn’t say the U.K. passport power ranked as 3rd in the world was “much devalued” - ahead of the USA, Canada and on a par with Ireland….

    https://www.passportindex.org/byRank.php
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,553
    "Matt Goodwin
    @GoodwinMJ

    Nigel Farage reveals private polling suggests if he led a party into the 2024 election he'd likely win 4-5 million votes --more than enough to guarantee a Tory wipeout.

    But will he run?

    8:54 PM · Jun 21, 2023"

    https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1671607581788233729
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    Nigelb said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Take Bobby Kennedy Jr. Seriously, Not Literally

    "Sixty-six percent of registered voters think Biden is too old to be president and 59 percent have doubts about his mental fitness, according to a Harvard CAPS-Harris poll conducted last week."

    "Biden is a weak candidate against almost any Republican, including Trump, and he’s probably even weaker with Kamala Harris as his running mate."

    https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/20/opinion/robert-kennedy-democrat-president-2024.html

    Had Bobby Kennedy not been shot he not Humphrey would likely have been Democratic nominee in 1968 and he would probably have beaten Nixon then to win the Presidency. Could Robert Kennedy Jnr do what his father narrowly missed, remember LBJ like Biden was at one stage hoping to run again as incumbent President
    Even of primary Kennedy supporters they are supporting him because they know little about him beyond his family name. Only 12% of his own supporters go for his views/policies with 4% going for would do a good job, vs combined 57% for family connections/want to know more/is a democrat/would consider any candidate.

    https://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/23825119/cnn-poll-2024-democratic-primary.pdf

    What is the main reason you would consider supporEng Robert F. Kennedy, Jr.? [OPEN-END]
    May 17-20, 2023
    Kennedy name/Family connecaons 20%
    Do not know enough/Want to learn more 17%
    Support his views/policies 12%
    Would consider any candidate/Open-minded 10%
    Is a Democrat/Not a Republican 10%
    Qualified/Has poliacal experience 7%
    Support any Democrat over Trump/Is not Trump 5%
    Not Biden/Alternaave to Biden 4%
    Would do a good job/Is a good leader 4%
    Environmental posiaons/Climate 4%
    Could win 3%
    Someone new/Fresh face/Fresh ideas 3%
    Age/Younger 3%
    Could step in if Biden unable 1%
    Other 9%
    No opinion 8%
    If he combines fans of the Kennedy brand with leftwingers who voted for Sanders in the 2020 Democratic primaries, he could yet run Biden close.

    Not only Bobby Kennedy under LBJ's Presidency in 1968 but Ted Kennedy too v Carter in 1980 shows Kennedys are not afraid of challenging incumbent Democratic Presidents. Ted Kennedy also backed Obama in 2008 v establishment frontrunner Hillary Clinton
    Bonkers. He would have more chance in the Republican primary.
    He is bonkers, yes.

    And I hope he has no chance in any primary. Even Trump isn't quite as bad as he is.
    Allow me to repeat, RFKJR is just another Trumpist electoral prank. As with Ye 2020.

    For starters in 2023 designed to sprinkle a bit o' sand in the Biden 2024 campaign gas tank. NOT enough to disable or even close, but something to gun up the works.

    For 2024 primaries and maybe beyond, aimed at taking small stripes off of Uncle Joe's hide.

    Which in close state and/or national situation MIGHT be the racers edge.
    Fairly telling that one of Musk's tech billionaire mates is funding him.
    For the record, should NOT forget the pro-Trump role played by Green Party nominee Jill Stein in 2016.

    Pro-Russian, anti-vax; sound familiar? (See Proverbs 26:11)
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    Leon said:

    Brussels to allow installation of spyware on journalists’ phones and laptops
    The EU’s decision to give intrusive surveillance of reporters the green light has put their sources at risk of identification

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/journalist-spyware-eu-surveillance-sources-3lfnqqznr (£££)

    Hence, Brexit
    If you think Braverman is not looking at this with interest I have a bridge to sell you. But, of course, it would be sovereign, “democratic” spying. So that’s okay.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,822
    Farooq said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Farooq said:

    Pagan2 said:

    WillG said:

    There’s an old joke from Glasgow:

    “Are you Catholic or Protestant?”
    “Neither, I’m Atheist.”
    “Aye, but are you a Catholic Atheist or a Protestant Atheist?”

    That’s the problem with ‘cis’ - it buys into the belief system, it assumes you have a ‘gender identity’……

    Insisting everyone has a ‘gender identity’ is akin to insisting everyone has a ‘soul’. It’s not insulting in itself, but if you keep on about it and can’t grasp that some people don’t share your belief, then they might get narked at you.

    “But ‘cis’ just means the opposite of ‘trans’!”

    Great - so what does ‘trans’ mean? It can’t be defined without referring to ‘gender identity’, a metaphysical belief.


    https://twitter.com/bencooper/status/1671533767691759621?s=20

    That's rubbish. Of course everyone has a gender identity. I think of myself as male. Even if you are the sort of person that thinks all trans people are mentally deluded, any everyone by rights should have the same gender and biological sex, gender identity still provably exists. In the way that a soul isn't provable.
    How do you prove your gender? How do you test for it?

    Your sex is in your chromosomes and for the overwhelming majority demonstrated in their reproductive organs. It’s binary in the overwhelming majority of mammals.

    How many genders are there?

    107?

    https://www.sexualdiversity.org/edu/1111.php

    If not, how many? And how do you prove it?

    Gender is a social construct and a belief system.

    Unsurprisingly some are rejecting compelled belief and compelled speech.
    If we accept gender is a social construct, does that mean that we should ignore gender in law? Should we support or make life difficult for people who want to change gender?

    Ethnicity is a social construct. Religion is a social construct. These things have protection in law (albeit different ones). Money is a social construct. Democracy is a social construct. Lots of interesting and nice things are social constructs!
    Religion certainly shouldn't be protected by law, nor ethnicity. Democracy and money aren't protected already you are free to advocate for a dictatorship or a cash free society based on barter
    There's a big difference between advocating for political change and just doing stuff.

    You can advocate for dictatorship.
    You can advocate for racist policies too.

    But you can't just set yourself up as a dictator. And you can't go around enacting racist workplace policies for example. Because the laws forbid those.

    Freedom to say what you think should be the case is different to acting like it's already the case.
    So if I walk round with an "( insert deity of choice) is an arsehole" tshirt on do you think the likely result is a) I will get a few people shaking their head or b) I get arrested

    I suspect we all know the answer is b)

    So it is ok to proclaim "(deity of choice) is great" but not the opposite. Each are equally valid as opinions
    Jesus is an arsehole.
    Mohammad is an arsehole.
    Abraham, Gautama Buddha, Rishabhadeva: arseholes.
    And any gods they tell us about: arseholes.
    Yoda?
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,821
    Farooq said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Farooq said:

    Pagan2 said:

    WillG said:

    There’s an old joke from Glasgow:

    “Are you Catholic or Protestant?”
    “Neither, I’m Atheist.”
    “Aye, but are you a Catholic Atheist or a Protestant Atheist?”

    That’s the problem with ‘cis’ - it buys into the belief system, it assumes you have a ‘gender identity’……

    Insisting everyone has a ‘gender identity’ is akin to insisting everyone has a ‘soul’. It’s not insulting in itself, but if you keep on about it and can’t grasp that some people don’t share your belief, then they might get narked at you.

    “But ‘cis’ just means the opposite of ‘trans’!”

    Great - so what does ‘trans’ mean? It can’t be defined without referring to ‘gender identity’, a metaphysical belief.


    https://twitter.com/bencooper/status/1671533767691759621?s=20

    That's rubbish. Of course everyone has a gender identity. I think of myself as male. Even if you are the sort of person that thinks all trans people are mentally deluded, any everyone by rights should have the same gender and biological sex, gender identity still provably exists. In the way that a soul isn't provable.
    How do you prove your gender? How do you test for it?

    Your sex is in your chromosomes and for the overwhelming majority demonstrated in their reproductive organs. It’s binary in the overwhelming majority of mammals.

    How many genders are there?

    107?

    https://www.sexualdiversity.org/edu/1111.php

    If not, how many? And how do you prove it?

    Gender is a social construct and a belief system.

    Unsurprisingly some are rejecting compelled belief and compelled speech.
    If we accept gender is a social construct, does that mean that we should ignore gender in law? Should we support or make life difficult for people who want to change gender?

    Ethnicity is a social construct. Religion is a social construct. These things have protection in law (albeit different ones). Money is a social construct. Democracy is a social construct. Lots of interesting and nice things are social constructs!
    Religion certainly shouldn't be protected by law, nor ethnicity. Democracy and money aren't protected already you are free to advocate for a dictatorship or a cash free society based on barter
    There's a big difference between advocating for political change and just doing stuff.

    You can advocate for dictatorship.
    You can advocate for racist policies too.

    But you can't just set yourself up as a dictator. And you can't go around enacting racist workplace policies for example. Because the laws forbid those.

    Freedom to say what you think should be the case is different to acting like it's already the case.
    So if I walk round with an "( insert deity of choice) is an arsehole" tshirt on do you think the likely result is a) I will get a few people shaking their head or b) I get arrested

    I suspect we all know the answer is b)

    So it is ok to proclaim "(deity of choice) is great" but not the opposite. Each are equally valid as opinions
    Jesus is an arsehole.
    Mohammad is an arsehole.
    Abraham, Gautama Buddha, Rishabhadeva: arseholes.
    And any gods they tell us about: arseholes.
    "Hey, asshole! Two of our guys died trying to find you, all right?"
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    To days news is wall to wall financial crisis with the elephant in the room being Brexit. Now that Johnson has gone commentators and others seem much less restrained in mentioning the great unmentionable. There's hardly anyone still talking it up or even prepared to defend it.

    Surely someone has got to mobilise the 17,000,000 (Now more likely to be 25,000,000) or they're going to get bounced around by this economic storm like everyone else and without even a loin cloth.

    Time for someone with courage or ambition to go for it.

    Personally, I have given up on the UK rejoining. I found it a lot easier to let my UK passport expire and just start using my Irish one.
    Are you allowed to have both? A friend has just got herself an Austrian passport which they'll give to any family of Austrian refugees from WW2 however many generations down the line and they can keep their UK one. You're very fortunate. In France people with properties are trying to invent the most crazy schemes to circumvent the rules. The French are now bringing in a non dom property tax which you can't blame them for doing. If Boris ever finds his way to the Cote d'Azur he'll be strung up
    The Irish do not mind their citizens being dual passport holders - and a lot of other countries are the same.
    The blue UK passport is much devalued since we left. And that was allegedly our key to sovereignty and the reason for leaving. What a joke!
    I wouldn’t say the U.K. passport power ranked as 3rd in the world was “much devalued” - ahead of the USA, Canada and on a par with Ireland….

    https://www.passportindex.org/byRank.php
    People tend to confuse a passport with citizenship. They are connected but not at all the same thing.
  • londonpubmanlondonpubman Posts: 3,639
    pigeon said:

    🙉 Hear there were some serious truth bombs at the 1922 Committee in address by @FrankLuntz to Tory MPs.

    Said anyone with a 15k or less majority is "at this moment in time" under threat of losing their seat - added: "this is what CCHQ are not telling you."….

    Luntz also said while he counted Boris Johnson as a friend, the ex-PM was "behaving horribly" and "Trumpian" and said "he needs to go away."

    Some grim gallows humour from Tory MPs in - what were previously not considered - marginal seats... some wondering what to do next. 2/2


    https://twitter.com/MrHarryCole/status/1671565931405770757?s=20

    I would've thought that about half of the Parliamentary Conservative Party are defending majorities of under 15,000. That implies a 1997-level defeat. Though then again, if we have a mortgage crisis and stagflation at the same time in 2024, the remaining half of the Tory MPs would probably take a result like that with a sigh of relief.
    CON probably heading for 210 now. Lower than what I have projected previously but people are really unhappy with the government's complete inability to deal with inflation 👿👿👿
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    Taz said:

    viewcode said:

    ohnotnow said:

    viewcode said:

    ohnotnow said:

    viewcode said:

    Taz said:

    viewcode said:

    viewcode said:
    So which one of you is Spartacus?
    I think we are all Spartacus in some way. Although hopefully not the "crucified on the Appian Way" way, because that would be...bad. :smiley:
    I am he as you are he and you are me and we are all together…..
    Third Doctor: "...Jo, it's quite simple. I am he and he is me"
    Jo Grant: "...and we are all together, koo koo kichoo"
    Second Doctor: "What"
    Jo Grant: "It's a song by the Beatles..."

    (The Three Doctors, 1973)
    Look at you with your Pertwee-era references. It'll be The War Games quotes next.
    Hah! Trick question! ("The War Games" was Troughton. Unless you meant the "WarGames"? Or "The War Game")
    I meant you'd go juuuust a bit further back. I wasn't going to test you on Hartnell - that would just be too much.... ;-)
    Pertwee is before my time, but his era was a banger - they showed his shows on the Horror Channel a few years back. From the start of Three/Jo Grant to about the end of Four/Sarah-Jane (possibly Four/Leela but not K9) was about as good as the classic serial ever got. After that it was just bits and bobs until it died of neglect and JNT... :(
    For me the third Hartnell series was as good as it got for classic who, the troughton era was hugely overrated and benefited from peoples fond memories in eighties fandom and once episodes started returning they were mostly meh.

    Season 7 through to 14, I’d agree, magnificent. But season 16 and 17 are just great fun too.
    Have a jellybaby.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,385
    edited June 2023
    Andy_JS said:

    "Matt Goodwin
    @GoodwinMJ

    Fluent liar and serial electoral failure Nigel Farage reveals claims to have private polling that suggests if he led a party into the 2024 election he'd likely win 4-5 million votes --more than enough to guarantee a Tory wipeout.

    But will he run?

    8:54 PM · Jun 21, 2023"

    https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1671607581788233729

    I think that my version works better, and not just because I have corrected Goodwin's grammar.
  • murali_smurali_s Posts: 3,067
    Living in London is a bit of an echo chamber for progressive politics. Very few Tories here, and even the few that are here think Brexit is a total clusterf*ck. Does anyone actually seriously think think Brexit is beneficial? Anyone?
  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,486
    Farooq said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Farooq said:

    Pagan2 said:

    WillG said:

    There’s an old joke from Glasgow:

    “Are you Catholic or Protestant?”
    “Neither, I’m Atheist.”
    “Aye, but are you a Catholic Atheist or a Protestant Atheist?”

    That’s the problem with ‘cis’ - it buys into the belief system, it assumes you have a ‘gender identity’……

    Insisting everyone has a ‘gender identity’ is akin to insisting everyone has a ‘soul’. It’s not insulting in itself, but if you keep on about it and can’t grasp that some people don’t share your belief, then they might get narked at you.

    “But ‘cis’ just means the opposite of ‘trans’!”

    Great - so what does ‘trans’ mean? It can’t be defined without referring to ‘gender identity’, a metaphysical belief.


    https://twitter.com/bencooper/status/1671533767691759621?s=20

    That's rubbish. Of course everyone has a gender identity. I think of myself as male. Even if you are the sort of person that thinks all trans people are mentally deluded, any everyone by rights should have the same gender and biological sex, gender identity still provably exists. In the way that a soul isn't provable.
    How do you prove your gender? How do you test for it?

    Your sex is in your chromosomes and for the overwhelming majority demonstrated in their reproductive organs. It’s binary in the overwhelming majority of mammals.

    How many genders are there?

    107?

    https://www.sexualdiversity.org/edu/1111.php

    If not, how many? And how do you prove it?

    Gender is a social construct and a belief system.

    Unsurprisingly some are rejecting compelled belief and compelled speech.
    If we accept gender is a social construct, does that mean that we should ignore gender in law? Should we support or make life difficult for people who want to change gender?

    Ethnicity is a social construct. Religion is a social construct. These things have protection in law (albeit different ones). Money is a social construct. Democracy is a social construct. Lots of interesting and nice things are social constructs!
    Religion certainly shouldn't be protected by law, nor ethnicity. Democracy and money aren't protected already you are free to advocate for a dictatorship or a cash free society based on barter
    There's a big difference between advocating for political change and just doing stuff.

    You can advocate for dictatorship.
    You can advocate for racist policies too.

    But you can't just set yourself up as a dictator. And you can't go around enacting racist workplace policies for example. Because the laws forbid those.

    Freedom to say what you think should be the case is different to acting like it's already the case.
    So if I walk round with an "( insert deity of choice) is an arsehole" tshirt on do you think the likely result is a) I will get a few people shaking their head or b) I get arrested

    I suspect we all know the answer is b)

    So it is ok to proclaim "(deity of choice) is great" but not the opposite. Each are equally valid as opinions
    Jesus is an arsehole.
    Mohammad is an arsehole.
    Abraham, Gautama Buddha, Rishabhadeva: arseholes.
    And any gods they tell us about: arseholes.
    Not one of my favourite Radiohead songs but each to their own.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,793
    murali_s said:

    Living in London is a bit of an echo chamber for progressive politics. Very few Tories here, and even the few that are here think Brexit is a total clusterf*ck. Does anyone actually seriously think think Brexit is beneficial? Anyone?

    I do, for one.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,553
    murali_s said:

    Living in London is a bit of an echo chamber for progressive politics. Very few Tories here, and even the few that are here think Brexit is a total clusterf*ck. Does anyone actually seriously think think Brexit is beneficial? Anyone?

    Try asking outside London and the Home Counties.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,075
    Taz said:

    viewcode said:

    Taz said:

    viewcode said:

    Taz said:

    viewcode said:

    viewcode said:
    So which one of you is Spartacus?
    I think we are all Spartacus in some way. Although hopefully not the "crucified on the Appian Way" way, because that would be...bad. :smiley:
    I am he as you are he and you are me and we are all together…..
    Third Doctor: "...Jo, it's quite simple. I am he and he is me"
    Jo Grant: "...and we are all together, koo koo kichoo"
    Second Doctor: "What"
    Jo Grant: "It's a song by the Beatles..."

    (The Three Doctors, 1973)
    Yay, You’ve redeemed yourself after the Terror of the Autons miss 😀😀😀😀

    Here’s some seventies kitsch.

    https://youtu.be/DNuco0p55dc
    Thank you for the link, which I watched with gr...oh my goodness it was awful. Well, to be honest, it wasn't bad, and certainly not rubbish, but very of its time.

    Two weeks before: Mike and Bernie Winters! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=foGD5DbLJck
    Bloody hell, Peter Gordeno is in that one ! From UFO.

    I am going to grab some of these tomorrow as I am working from home. They are so dire they are entertaining. YouTube has some good stuff being posted. There’s an account called Nostalgia who posts some great one off plays and dramas.

    Loved the original Mike Batt theme, there’s a TOTP that exists with him playing it and, Pans People are dancing to it.

    I did watch that play for tomorrow, Crimes, I think you posted. I got it off thebox a few years ago. It was hard going apart from the lovely Sylvestra La Touzel.
    I can't remember posting "Crimes", but I do remember posting "The Stone Tape" (TV, radio), whose reputation only rises with age - I think Gatiss is a fan?

  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,871
    murali_s said:

    Living in London is a bit of an echo chamber for progressive politics. Very few Tories here, and even the few that are here think Brexit is a total clusterf*ck. Does anyone actually seriously think think Brexit is beneficial? Anyone?

    yes
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,663
    murali_s said:

    Living in London is a bit of an echo chamber for progressive politics. Very few Tories here, and even the few that are here think Brexit is a total clusterf*ck. Does anyone actually seriously think think Brexit is beneficial? Anyone?

    Putin
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,385
    murali_s said:

    Living in London is a bit of an echo chamber for progressive politics. Very few Tories here, and even the few that are here think Brexit is a total clusterf*ck. Does anyone actually seriously think think Brexit is beneficial? Anyone?

    The rather sad truth is I think many people outside London would feel that if Brexit achieved literally nothing other than pissing off a lot of Londoners it would still have been worth it.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    murali_s said:

    Living in London is a bit of an echo chamber for progressive politics. Very few Tories here, and even the few that are here think Brexit is a total clusterf*ck. Does anyone actually seriously think think Brexit is beneficial? Anyone?

    No. It’s shit. But we lost. Stop thinking I’m terms of the last 8 years and start thinking about the next decade. Pontificating about fucking passports (not you, others) isn’t doing shit and is the type of lazy entitled thinking that got us into this mess. Here’s a plan, start advocating for small steps, Horizon, Erasmus, that a Labour Govt could achieve without too much rocking the boat. Then in the second term Single Market membership. Then, maybe in as little as 10 years (v optimistic I admit) start thinking about rejoin. It can’t happen now. The wounds are too raw.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208
    Leon said:

    Brussels to allow installation of spyware on journalists’ phones and laptops
    The EU’s decision to give intrusive surveillance of reporters the green light has put their sources at risk of identification

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/journalist-spyware-eu-surveillance-sources-3lfnqqznr (£££)

    Hence, Brexit
    You mean because we can swap
    Leon said:

    Brussels to allow installation of spyware on journalists’ phones and laptops
    The EU’s decision to give intrusive surveillance of reporters the green light has put their sources at risk of identification

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/journalist-spyware-eu-surveillance-sources-3lfnqqznr (£££)

    Hence, Brexit
    Because we now have the freedom to swap journalist protections that the EU will significantly strengthen for weaker UK protections that the government here is proposing to weaken further?
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,075
    edited June 2023
    [deleted: blockquote upfucked]
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,385
    pigeon said:

    pigeon said:

    🙉 Hear there were some serious truth bombs at the 1922 Committee in address by @FrankLuntz to Tory MPs.

    Said anyone with a 15k or less majority is "at this moment in time" under threat of losing their seat - added: "this is what CCHQ are not telling you."….

    Luntz also said while he counted Boris Johnson as a friend, the ex-PM was "behaving horribly" and "Trumpian" and said "he needs to go away."

    Some grim gallows humour from Tory MPs in - what were previously not considered - marginal seats... some wondering what to do next. 2/2


    https://twitter.com/MrHarryCole/status/1671565931405770757?s=20

    I would've thought that about half of the Parliamentary Conservative Party are defending majorities of under 15,000. That implies a 1997-level defeat. Though then again, if we have a mortgage crisis and stagflation at the same time in 2024, the remaining half of the Tory MPs would probably take a result like that with a sigh of relief.
    Some with more that 15,000 majorities would be far from safe where the polls are now. Its probable that won't be true at the GE but given Mr Sunak's political skills and campaigning ability we could lurch into a 2017 style Tory campaign and then who knows?
    Personally I don't think that the Tories will do nearly as badly as 1997, simply because the median age of the electorate has increased in the last 25 years, and the well-to-do over-50s will likely still turn out for them. But we shall see.
    But will they or will they just sit on their hands ?

    That’s the issue for me.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,631
    edited June 2023
    This is fantastic news for the Tory party

    🔵 BICESTER & WOODSTOCK: former George Osborne adviser Rupert Harrison picked as Conservative candidate.

    https://twitter.com/tomorrowsmps/status/1671612506291175430?s=46
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,385
    viewcode said:

    Taz said:

    viewcode said:

    Taz said:

    viewcode said:

    Taz said:

    viewcode said:

    viewcode said:
    So which one of you is Spartacus?
    I think we are all Spartacus in some way. Although hopefully not the "crucified on the Appian Way" way, because that would be...bad. :smiley:
    I am he as you are he and you are me and we are all together…..
    Third Doctor: "...Jo, it's quite simple. I am he and he is me"
    Jo Grant: "...and we are all together, koo koo kichoo"
    Second Doctor: "What"
    Jo Grant: "It's a song by the Beatles..."

    (The Three Doctors, 1973)
    Yay, You’ve redeemed yourself after the Terror of the Autons miss 😀😀😀😀

    Here’s some seventies kitsch.

    https://youtu.be/DNuco0p55dc
    Thank you for the link, which I watched with gr...oh my goodness it was awful. Well, to be honest, it wasn't bad, and certainly not rubbish, but very of its time.

    Two weeks before: Mike and Bernie Winters! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=foGD5DbLJck
    Bloody hell, Peter Gordeno is in that one ! From UFO.

    I am going to grab some of these tomorrow as I am working from home. They are so dire they are entertaining. YouTube has some good stuff being posted. There’s an account called Nostalgia who posts some great one off plays and dramas.

    Loved the original Mike Batt theme, there’s a TOTP that exists with him playing it and, Pans People are dancing to it.

    I did watch that play for tomorrow, Crimes, I think you posted. I got it off thebox a few years ago. It was hard going apart from the lovely Sylvestra La Touzel.
    I can't remember posting "Crimes", but I do remember posting "The Stone Tape" (TV, radio), whose reputation only rises with age - I think Gatiss is a fan?

    He certainly is and he is a fan of a lot,of that sort of stuff. Nigel Kneale, Quatermass, Out of the Unknown.

    I did grab that from YouTube and listened to it. I got a fair few good audio series from YouTube on the back of that.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,821
    Farooq said:

    boulay said:

    Farooq said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Farooq said:

    Pagan2 said:

    WillG said:

    There’s an old joke from Glasgow:

    “Are you Catholic or Protestant?”
    “Neither, I’m Atheist.”
    “Aye, but are you a Catholic Atheist or a Protestant Atheist?”

    That’s the problem with ‘cis’ - it buys into the belief system, it assumes you have a ‘gender identity’……

    Insisting everyone has a ‘gender identity’ is akin to insisting everyone has a ‘soul’. It’s not insulting in itself, but if you keep on about it and can’t grasp that some people don’t share your belief, then they might get narked at you.

    “But ‘cis’ just means the opposite of ‘trans’!”

    Great - so what does ‘trans’ mean? It can’t be defined without referring to ‘gender identity’, a metaphysical belief.


    https://twitter.com/bencooper/status/1671533767691759621?s=20

    That's rubbish. Of course everyone has a gender identity. I think of myself as male. Even if you are the sort of person that thinks all trans people are mentally deluded, any everyone by rights should have the same gender and biological sex, gender identity still provably exists. In the way that a soul isn't provable.
    How do you prove your gender? How do you test for it?

    Your sex is in your chromosomes and for the overwhelming majority demonstrated in their reproductive organs. It’s binary in the overwhelming majority of mammals.

    How many genders are there?

    107?

    https://www.sexualdiversity.org/edu/1111.php

    If not, how many? And how do you prove it?

    Gender is a social construct and a belief system.

    Unsurprisingly some are rejecting compelled belief and compelled speech.
    If we accept gender is a social construct, does that mean that we should ignore gender in law? Should we support or make life difficult for people who want to change gender?

    Ethnicity is a social construct. Religion is a social construct. These things have protection in law (albeit different ones). Money is a social construct. Democracy is a social construct. Lots of interesting and nice things are social constructs!
    Religion certainly shouldn't be protected by law, nor ethnicity. Democracy and money aren't protected already you are free to advocate for a dictatorship or a cash free society based on barter
    There's a big difference between advocating for political change and just doing stuff.

    You can advocate for dictatorship.
    You can advocate for racist policies too.

    But you can't just set yourself up as a dictator. And you can't go around enacting racist workplace policies for example. Because the laws forbid those.

    Freedom to say what you think should be the case is different to acting like it's already the case.
    So if I walk round with an "( insert deity of choice) is an arsehole" tshirt on do you think the likely result is a) I will get a few people shaking their head or b) I get arrested

    I suspect we all know the answer is b)

    So it is ok to proclaim "(deity of choice) is great" but not the opposite. Each are equally valid as opinions
    Jesus is an arsehole.
    Mohammad is an arsehole.
    Abraham, Gautama Buddha, Rishabhadeva: arseholes.
    And any gods they tell us about: arseholes.
    Not one of my favourite Radiohead songs but each to their own.
    I quite like the track "God is dead" but it's a bit of a Nietzsche interest
    "Blasphemous Rumours" by Depeche Mode?
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,759
    murali_s said:

    Living in London is a bit of an echo chamber for progressive politics. Very few Tories here, and even the few that are here think Brexit is a total clusterf*ck. Does anyone actually seriously think think Brexit is beneficial? Anyone?

    Too early to say. I confess I did imagine that some benefits might be apparent within 5 years or so, but I had thought that there might be some vague inclination on the part of government to make the most of any opportunity.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,663
    edited June 2023
    Probabilities for the next GE right now?

    I'm guessing:

    10% Tory wipe-out, Labour landslide
    30% Workable Labour majority
    40% Labour-led hung parliament
    15% Chaotic hung parliament, Tories largest party but unable to govern - 2nd election within 6 months
    5% Tory majority

    Question for me is what happens to voting reform if the Labour-led hung parliament comes to pass?
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 4,839

    Probabilities for the next GE right now?

    I'm guessing:

    10% Tory wipe-out, Labour landslide
    30% Workable Labour majority
    40% Labour-led hung parliament
    15% Chaotic hung parliament, Tories largest party but unable to govern - 2nd election within 6 months
    5% Tory majority

    Question for me is what happens to voting reform if the Labour-led hung parliament comes to pass?

    Nothing. Labour would never agree to it and the smaller parties would lack sufficient leverage to insist.
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 8,163
    DougSeal said:

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    To days news is wall to wall financial crisis with the elephant in the room being Brexit. Now that Johnson has gone commentators and others seem much less restrained in mentioning the great unmentionable. There's hardly anyone still talking it up or even prepared to defend it.

    Surely someone has got to mobilise the 17,000,000 (Now more likely to be 25,000,000) or they're going to get bounced around by this economic storm like everyone else and without even a loin cloth.

    Time for someone with courage or ambition to go for it.

    Personally, I have given up on the UK rejoining. I found it a lot easier to let my UK passport expire and just start using my Irish one.
    Are you allowed to have both? A friend has just got herself an Austrian passport which they'll give to any family of Austrian refugees from WW2 however many generations down the line and they can keep their UK one. You're very fortunate. In France people with properties are trying to invent the most crazy schemes to circumvent the rules. The French are now bringing in a non dom property tax which you can't blame them for doing. If Boris ever finds his way to the Cote d'Azur he'll be strung up
    The Irish do not mind their citizens being dual passport holders - and a lot of other countries are the same.
    The blue UK passport is much devalued since we left. And that was allegedly our key to sovereignty and the reason for leaving. What a joke!
    I wouldn’t say the U.K. passport power ranked as 3rd in the world was “much devalued” - ahead of the USA, Canada and on a par with Ireland….

    https://www.passportindex.org/byRank.php
    People tend to confuse a passport with citizenship. They are connected but not at all the same thing.
    True. I have had dual citizenship all my life, but Brexit made me apply for my Irish passport.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277

    Probabilities for the next GE right now?

    I'm guessing:

    10% Tory wipe-out, Labour landslide
    30% Workable Labour majority
    40% Labour-led hung parliament
    15% Chaotic hung parliament, Tories largest party but unable to govern - 2nd election within 6 months
    5% Tory majority

    Question for me is what happens to voting reform if the Labour-led hung parliament comes to pass?

    35% Tory wipe out, Labour landslide
    35% Workable Labour majority
    25% Labour led hung parliament
    4.9999% Chaotic hung parliament, Tories largest party etc
    0.0001% Tory majority
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368
    ...

    I know I have come to this a bit late but yes CON are heading for 32% max.

    No one likes LAB but Keir can start measuring up the curtains now! LAB 41%. Enough for 330 seats +

    Don't mention No 10 interior decor. You know how that ended once before.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,075
    Miklosvar said:

    viewcode said:

    Miklosvar said:

    viewcode said:

    Miklosvar said:

    Miklosvar said:

    Miklosvar said:

    WillG said:

    There’s an old joke from Glasgow:

    “Are you Catholic or Protestant?”
    “Neither, I’m Atheist.”
    “Aye, but are you a Catholic Atheist or a Protestant Atheist?”

    That’s the problem with ‘cis’ - it buys into the belief system, it assumes you have a ‘gender identity’……

    Insisting everyone has a ‘gender identity’ is akin to insisting everyone has a ‘soul’. It’s not insulting in itself, but if you keep on about it and can’t grasp that some people don’t share your belief, then they might get narked at you.

    “But ‘cis’ just means the opposite of ‘trans’!”

    Great - so what does ‘trans’ mean? It can’t be defined without referring to ‘gender identity’, a metaphysical belief.


    https://twitter.com/bencooper/status/1671533767691759621?s=20

    That's rubbish. Of course everyone has a gender identity. I think of myself as male. Even if you are the sort of person that thinks all trans people are mentally deluded, any everyone by rights should have the same gender and biological sex, gender identity still provably exists. In the way that a soul isn't provable.
    How do you prove your gender? How do you test for it?

    Your sex is in your chromosomes and for the overwhelming majority demonstrated in their reproductive organs. It’s binary in the overwhelming majority of mammals.

    How many genders are there?

    107?

    https://www.sexualdiversity.org/edu/1111.php

    If not, how many? And how do you prove it?

    Gender is a social construct and a belief system.

    Unsurprisingly some are rejecting compelled belief and compelled speech.
    If we accept gender is a social construct,
    If it’s not a social construct what is it?

    If I say “I don’t believe in god” I’m not instantly denounced for promoting a Christian/Muslim genocide, of denying the existence of Christians, or having the police set upon me for hate speech. The trans community have been very poorly served by the authoritarian “no debate” trans activists.
    Yes, I am sure the issue faced by the trans community is the actions of *some* trans activists. And not, say, those who try to belittle them, make them out to be a threat, and worse.

    I mean, obviously the hated we see toSTFwards trans people is absolutely *not* an issue they face, is it?
    I have no doubt there are groups of men who go around in cities identifying and beating up trans people, just as they identify and beat up gays and immigrants. That is appalling and, happily, illegal. but I have never seen anything identified on the internet as "hatred of trans people" which turned out on closer inspection to be anything other than a polite suggestion that women should be allowed their own hospital wards, and sporting contests. The people who go "Waaah" about this are doing a great disservice to the victims of the behaviour identified in sentence 1 above.
    If you don't see it, then I suggest you look a little harder. Or, for your sanity, don't.

    As a matter of interest, how do you define 'hatred' ?
    That is an evasion, and just not good enough. Link, or stfu. In the mean time, the most hated "trans hater" I as a general internet consumer am aware of is JKR, and she has never said anything not entirely reasonable, nor anything which could be construed as hatred of anyone.
    STFU?

    I might suggest you take your own 'advice'.

    But if you want a generalised take, from an OGH-friendly source:
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-50166900
    or:
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-48756370

    It happens, and it is real.
    "STFU" is entirely permissible, as a counter to your refusal to produce evidence. Otherwise it's not.

    Your links are to an "Anti-bullying charity" and to the recording of "transgender hate crimes" by English police forces. Not what I call primary evidence. Have another go.
    I'm not sure "recording of "transgender hate crimes" by English police forces" doesn't constitute primary evidence, except in the sense of being one step distant from the event. Are you asking for actual recordings of trans-bashing?

    "I'm not sure "recording of "transgender hate crimes" by English police forces" doesn't constitute primary evidence, except in the sense of being one step distant from the event" is beautiful. "you are calling this secondary evidence, but there is no evidence fir it being secondary, except the fact that it is secondary."

    Substantively, the answer to your point is that the evidence is entirely dubject to the judgment of plod, and to rather odd statutory constraints about how you define a hate crime. If I say here and now that I think JKR has a point about woman-only spaces, that is hate speech. Apparently.
    You seem to have misunderstood me. I was asking what level of evidence would suffice. Apologies if my meaning was obscure.
    It wasn't obscure, it was simply wrong. Primary is not secondary, in the same sense as one is not two. This is not difficult stuff.

    But again i will give you a substantive repsponse. Evidence of trans hatred would be convictions for trans bashing, criminal penalties for trans behaviour similar to gay behaviour prior to SOA 1967, and so on.
    Thank you
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,663

    This is fantastic news for the Tory party

    🔵 BICESTER & WOODSTOCK: former George Osborne adviser Rupert Harrison picked as Conservative candidate.

    https://twitter.com/tomorrowsmps/status/1671612506291175430?s=46

    Never mind that, I'm interested in who Labour have selected to be the new MP.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,075
    Taz said:

    viewcode said:

    Taz said:

    viewcode said:

    Taz said:

    viewcode said:

    Taz said:

    viewcode said:

    viewcode said:
    So which one of you is Spartacus?
    I think we are all Spartacus in some way. Although hopefully not the "crucified on the Appian Way" way, because that would be...bad. :smiley:
    I am he as you are he and you are me and we are all together…..
    Third Doctor: "...Jo, it's quite simple. I am he and he is me"
    Jo Grant: "...and we are all together, koo koo kichoo"
    Second Doctor: "What"
    Jo Grant: "It's a song by the Beatles..."

    (The Three Doctors, 1973)
    Yay, You’ve redeemed yourself after the Terror of the Autons miss 😀😀😀😀

    Here’s some seventies kitsch.

    https://youtu.be/DNuco0p55dc
    Thank you for the link, which I watched with gr...oh my goodness it was awful. Well, to be honest, it wasn't bad, and certainly not rubbish, but very of its time.

    Two weeks before: Mike and Bernie Winters! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=foGD5DbLJck
    Bloody hell, Peter Gordeno is in that one ! From UFO.

    I am going to grab some of these tomorrow as I am working from home. They are so dire they are entertaining. YouTube has some good stuff being posted. There’s an account called Nostalgia who posts some great one off plays and dramas.

    Loved the original Mike Batt theme, there’s a TOTP that exists with him playing it and, Pans People are dancing to it.

    I did watch that play for tomorrow, Crimes, I think you posted. I got it off thebox a few years ago. It was hard going apart from the lovely Sylvestra La Touzel.
    I can't remember posting "Crimes", but I do remember posting "The Stone Tape" (TV, radio), whose reputation only rises with age - I think Gatiss is a fan?

    He certainly is and he is a fan of a lot,of that sort of stuff. Nigel Kneale, Quatermass, Out of the Unknown.

    I did grab that from YouTube and listened to it. I got a fair few good audio series from YouTube on the back of that.
    Of course all this will end with a discussion of "The Daemons"... :smiley:
  • SteveSSteveS Posts: 182

    Farooq said:

    boulay said:

    Farooq said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Farooq said:

    Pagan2 said:

    WillG said:

    There’s an old joke from Glasgow:

    “Are you Catholic or Protestant?”
    “Neither, I’m Atheist.”
    “Aye, but are you a Catholic Atheist or a Protestant Atheist?”

    That’s the problem with ‘cis’ - it buys into the belief system, it assumes you have a ‘gender identity’……

    Insisting everyone has a ‘gender identity’ is akin to insisting everyone has a ‘soul’. It’s not insulting in itself, but if you keep on about it and can’t grasp that some people don’t share your belief, then they might get narked at you.

    “But ‘cis’ just means the opposite of ‘trans’!”

    Great - so what does ‘trans’ mean? It can’t be defined without referring to ‘gender identity’, a metaphysical belief.


    https://twitter.com/bencooper/status/1671533767691759621?s=20

    That's rubbish. Of course everyone has a gender identity. I think of myself as male. Even if you are the sort of person that thinks all trans people are mentally deluded, any everyone by rights should have the same gender and biological sex, gender identity still provably exists. In the way that a soul isn't provable.
    How do you prove your gender? How do you test for it?

    Your sex is in your chromosomes and for the overwhelming majority demonstrated in their reproductive organs. It’s binary in the overwhelming majority of mammals.

    How many genders are there?

    107?

    https://www.sexualdiversity.org/edu/1111.php

    If not, how many? And how do you prove it?

    Gender is a social construct and a belief system.

    Unsurprisingly some are rejecting compelled belief and compelled speech.
    If we accept gender is a social construct, does that mean that we should ignore gender in law? Should we support or make life difficult for people who want to change gender?

    Ethnicity is a social construct. Religion is a social construct. These things have protection in law (albeit different ones). Money is a social construct. Democracy is a social construct. Lots of interesting and nice things are social constructs!
    Religion certainly shouldn't be protected by law, nor ethnicity. Democracy and money aren't protected already you are free to advocate for a dictatorship or a cash free society based on barter
    There's a big difference between advocating for political change and just doing stuff.

    You can advocate for dictatorship.
    You can advocate for racist policies too.

    But you can't just set yourself up as a dictator. And you can't go around enacting racist workplace policies for example. Because the laws forbid those.

    Freedom to say what you think should be the case is different to acting like it's already the case.
    So if I walk round with an "( insert deity of choice) is an arsehole" tshirt on do you think the likely result is a) I will get a few people shaking their head or b) I get arrested

    I suspect we all know the answer is b)

    So it is ok to proclaim "(deity of choice) is great" but not the opposite. Each are equally valid as opinions
    Jesus is an arsehole.
    Mohammad is an arsehole.
    Abraham, Gautama Buddha, Rishabhadeva: arseholes.
    And any gods they tell us about: arseholes.
    Not one of my favourite Radiohead songs but each to their own.
    I quite like the track "God is dead" but it's a bit of a Nietzsche interest
    "Blasphemous Rumours" by Depeche Mode?
    NIN I think?

    But both are excellent.

    Steve.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    Cookie said:

    murali_s said:

    Living in London is a bit of an echo chamber for progressive politics. Very few Tories here, and even the few that are here think Brexit is a total clusterf*ck. Does anyone actually seriously think think Brexit is beneficial? Anyone?

    I do, for one.
    I do, and I live in London. Indeed in the lefty poncey constituency of Sir Kir Royale Starmer
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,246
    Cyclefree said:

    BTW Darren Jones MP is doing really good work in the Business Select Committee holding the Post Office to account in a politely lethal way. A Labour MP to keep an eye on for the future I think.

    Badenoch I see continues to be utterly feeble on this. Stupid woman.

    Why is her sex (or gender?) relevant here?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,385

    Cyclefree said:

    BTW Darren Jones MP is doing really good work in the Business Select Committee holding the Post Office to account in a politely lethal way. A Labour MP to keep an eye on for the future I think.

    Badenoch I see continues to be utterly feeble on this. Stupid woman.

    Why is her sex (or gender?) relevant here?
    TBF, most us think of Rees-Mogg as 'stupid man.'
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    Anybody who thinks the Tories have a chance has to factor that

    1. We have the same feeling of "kick the feckers out" and "time for a change" that we had in 1997

    PLUS

    2. We have a looming recession, a massive debt crisis, public services struggling, mortgage rates surging, on and on and on: unlike in 1997 when economic conditions were benign

    So the Tories are ultra-screwed. There is no way out of this. Meanwhile the SNP have exploded, opening the door for Starmer in Scotland, too

    Labour are gonna win, big or small, they are gonna win. But I predict they will become unpopular very quickly, when their lack of ideas is exposed
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    edited June 2023

    DougSeal said:

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    To days news is wall to wall financial crisis with the elephant in the room being Brexit. Now that Johnson has gone commentators and others seem much less restrained in mentioning the great unmentionable. There's hardly anyone still talking it up or even prepared to defend it.

    Surely someone has got to mobilise the 17,000,000 (Now more likely to be 25,000,000) or they're going to get bounced around by this economic storm like everyone else and without even a loin cloth.

    Time for someone with courage or ambition to go for it.

    Personally, I have given up on the UK rejoining. I found it a lot easier to let my UK passport expire and just start using my Irish one.
    Are you allowed to have both? A friend has just got herself an Austrian passport which they'll give to any family of Austrian refugees from WW2 however many generations down the line and they can keep their UK one. You're very fortunate. In France people with properties are trying to invent the most crazy schemes to circumvent the rules. The French are now bringing in a non dom property tax which you can't blame them for doing. If Boris ever finds his way to the Cote d'Azur he'll be strung up
    The Irish do not mind their citizens being dual passport holders - and a lot of other countries are the same.
    The blue UK passport is much devalued since we left. And that was allegedly our key to sovereignty and the reason for leaving. What a joke!
    I wouldn’t say the U.K. passport power ranked as 3rd in the world was “much devalued” - ahead of the USA, Canada and on a par with Ireland….

    https://www.passportindex.org/byRank.php
    People tend to confuse a passport with citizenship. They are connected but not at all the same thing.
    True. I have had dual citizenship all my life, but Brexit made me apply for my Irish passport.
    Jesus. Yes, we know, you have Irish Citizenship, you never cease to tell is, like every other Remainer with at least one Hibernian grandparent. Would you like a medal as well? You all bang on about it so often it sounds as if you’d like some special prize for your accident of birth.

    The rest of us have to try and fix this situation and listening to your “I’m all right Jack” tales isn’t helping and doesn’t help. Sure, you don’t think Brexit will be reversed, but you (as you keep reminding us) don’t have to worry about it do you? It’s not helpful, it just fights the last battle, and proudly proclaims an abstention from the next.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,663
    Leon said:

    Probabilities for the next GE right now?

    I'm guessing:

    10% Tory wipe-out, Labour landslide
    30% Workable Labour majority
    40% Labour-led hung parliament
    15% Chaotic hung parliament, Tories largest party but unable to govern - 2nd election within 6 months
    5% Tory majority

    Question for me is what happens to voting reform if the Labour-led hung parliament comes to pass?

    35% Tory wipe out, Labour landslide
    35% Workable Labour majority
    25% Labour led hung parliament
    4.9999% Chaotic hung parliament, Tories largest party etc
    0.0001% Tory majority
    Yeah you may be right but... swing-back.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,385
    viewcode said:

    Taz said:

    viewcode said:

    Taz said:

    viewcode said:

    Taz said:

    viewcode said:

    Taz said:

    viewcode said:

    viewcode said:
    So which one of you is Spartacus?
    I think we are all Spartacus in some way. Although hopefully not the "crucified on the Appian Way" way, because that would be...bad. :smiley:
    I am he as you are he and you are me and we are all together…..
    Third Doctor: "...Jo, it's quite simple. I am he and he is me"
    Jo Grant: "...and we are all together, koo koo kichoo"
    Second Doctor: "What"
    Jo Grant: "It's a song by the Beatles..."

    (The Three Doctors, 1973)
    Yay, You’ve redeemed yourself after the Terror of the Autons miss 😀😀😀😀

    Here’s some seventies kitsch.

    https://youtu.be/DNuco0p55dc
    Thank you for the link, which I watched with gr...oh my goodness it was awful. Well, to be honest, it wasn't bad, and certainly not rubbish, but very of its time.

    Two weeks before: Mike and Bernie Winters! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=foGD5DbLJck
    Bloody hell, Peter Gordeno is in that one ! From UFO.

    I am going to grab some of these tomorrow as I am working from home. They are so dire they are entertaining. YouTube has some good stuff being posted. There’s an account called Nostalgia who posts some great one off plays and dramas.

    Loved the original Mike Batt theme, there’s a TOTP that exists with him playing it and, Pans People are dancing to it.

    I did watch that play for tomorrow, Crimes, I think you posted. I got it off thebox a few years ago. It was hard going apart from the lovely Sylvestra La Touzel.
    I can't remember posting "Crimes", but I do remember posting "The Stone Tape" (TV, radio), whose reputation only rises with age - I think Gatiss is a fan?

    He certainly is and he is a fan of a lot,of that sort of stuff. Nigel Kneale, Quatermass, Out of the Unknown.

    I did grab that from YouTube and listened to it. I got a fair few good audio series from YouTube on the back of that.
    Of course all this will end with a discussion of "The Daemons"... :smiley:
    And Blanche Livermore, of this parish, being the postie in Aldbourne for a while !!
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,405
    viewcode said:

    ohnotnow said:

    viewcode said:

    ohnotnow said:

    viewcode said:

    Taz said:

    viewcode said:

    viewcode said:
    So which one of you is Spartacus?
    I think we are all Spartacus in some way. Although hopefully not the "crucified on the Appian Way" way, because that would be...bad. :smiley:
    I am he as you are he and you are me and we are all together…..
    Third Doctor: "...Jo, it's quite simple. I am he and he is me"
    Jo Grant: "...and we are all together, koo koo kichoo"
    Second Doctor: "What"
    Jo Grant: "It's a song by the Beatles..."

    (The Three Doctors, 1973)
    Look at you with your Pertwee-era references. It'll be The War Games quotes next.
    Hah! Trick question! ("The War Games" was Troughton. Unless you meant the "WarGames"? Or "The War Game")
    I meant you'd go juuuust a bit further back. I wasn't going to test you on Hartnell - that would just be too much.... ;-)
    Pertwee is before my time, but his era was a banger - they showed his shows on the Horror Channel a few years back. From the start of Three/Jo Grant to about the end of Four/Sarah-Jane (possibly Four/Leela but not K9) was about as good as the classic serial ever got. After that it was just bits and bobs until it died of neglect and JNT... :(
    I’d argue Caves of Androzani is one of the finest serials of the entire series. Robert Holmes really knew how to create interesting characters and give them voices. A legend.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    edited June 2023

    Leon said:

    Probabilities for the next GE right now?

    I'm guessing:

    10% Tory wipe-out, Labour landslide
    30% Workable Labour majority
    40% Labour-led hung parliament
    15% Chaotic hung parliament, Tories largest party but unable to govern - 2nd election within 6 months
    5% Tory majority

    Question for me is what happens to voting reform if the Labour-led hung parliament comes to pass?

    35% Tory wipe out, Labour landslide
    35% Workable Labour majority
    25% Labour led hung parliament
    4.9999% Chaotic hung parliament, Tories largest party etc
    0.0001% Tory majority
    Yeah you may be right but... swing-back.
    Swing back why? Starmer is the least scary Labour leader since Blair. He is dull as fuck. No one will run away from his manifesto of zero promises, apart from a few True Blues who were never gonna vote for him anyway (public school charity status etc)

    Everyone hates the Tories. I mean, even I hate them and I generally (if not always) vote for them

    They cannot recover, there is no route, we are half way through 2023 and there is nothing but dark clouds on the horizon
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,821

    This is fantastic news for the Tory party

    🔵 BICESTER & WOODSTOCK: former George Osborne adviser Rupert Harrison picked as Conservative candidate.

    https://twitter.com/tomorrowsmps/status/1671612506291175430?s=46

    Aaaaah, Bicester!
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,647
    Andy_JS said:

    murali_s said:

    Living in London is a bit of an echo chamber for progressive politics. Very few Tories here, and even the few that are here think Brexit is a total clusterf*ck. Does anyone actually seriously think think Brexit is beneficial? Anyone?

    Try asking outside London and the Home Counties.
    Red Wall polling suggests there ain't much enthusiasm for Brexit there either.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    To days news is wall to wall financial crisis with the elephant in the room being Brexit. Now that Johnson has gone commentators and others seem much less restrained in mentioning the great unmentionable. There's hardly anyone still talking it up or even prepared to defend it.

    Surely someone has got to mobilise the 17,000,000 (Now more likely to be 25,000,000) or they're going to get bounced around by this economic storm like everyone else and without even a loin cloth.

    Time for someone with courage or ambition to go for it.

    Personally, I have given up on the UK rejoining. I found it a lot easier to let my UK passport expire and just start using my Irish one.
    Are you allowed to have both? A friend has just got herself an Austrian passport which they'll give to any family of Austrian refugees from WW2 however many generations down the line and they can keep their UK one. You're very fortunate. In France people with properties are trying to invent the most crazy schemes to circumvent the rules. The French are now bringing in a non dom property tax which you can't blame them for doing. If Boris ever finds his way to the Cote d'Azur he'll be strung up
    The Irish do not mind their citizens being dual passport holders - and a lot of other countries are the same.
    The blue UK passport is much devalued since we left. And that was allegedly our key to sovereignty and the reason for leaving. What a joke!
    I wouldn’t say the U.K. passport power ranked as 3rd in the world was “much devalued” - ahead of the USA, Canada and on a par with Ireland….

    https://www.passportindex.org/byRank.php
    In practical terms it is.

    As I queue up at the non EU line at Schiphol with the Russians and the Turks for my shiny blue passports to be stamped by immigration, Beverley C. breezes past me in the Schengen line jauntily waving her Irish EU passport. As she checks into the Amstel Hotel I am still heading for the airport taxi rank.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,401

    dixiedean said:

    Heathener said:

    To @MikeSmithson I'd add that this is not just about Boris, although some of it is.

    Boris is definitely part of the problem because he reached a wing of voters, mainly northern red wall ones, who Sunak not only doesn't reach, but whom he has alienated. Boris has not gone away. Or, rather, by his exile he is reminding them of what they no longer have. Remember, they did not vote for Sunak. Every time Boris sticks his column in the Mail he's enflaming them against Sunak. These are also largely the 2019 stayaways who Mike has been warning about.

    But there are two other whammies

    One is the mortgage crisis, which is awful.

    The other inflation, ditto.

    And what are Labour going to do about inflation?

    I haven't seem any convincing answers to @Pulpstar 's excellent questions this morning.
    There is a tipping point where the evils of inflation have to be balanced against the evils of repossessions and recession.

    Interest rates are the BoE's only weapon. I heard the analogy that it's like playing the US Masters with just a 3 iron.

    I suspect Reeves with her backstory may be more imaginative than Sunak and Hunt. I hope she is anyway.
    So, she either has to do exactly the same thing she's currently attacking the Government for doing, or we're crossing our fingers and hoping she has some magic beans instead then?

    Right!
    I don't know.

    I suspect if you wanted to point a finger at anyone for dropping the ball it's Bailey and the BoE. They were advised to raise interest rates far earlier than they did. Maybe a quick, shorter, sharper shock would be more effective.

    You could also question Hunt as to why he has only met the mortgage provider Lobby today when the likes of Martin Lewis were advising action would be needed in 2023 last November.

    Maybe Reeves has some ideas, maybe not. Your lot are clean out of them.
    On which point. What is the point of a quarter or half point rise tomorrow when everyone knows there will be at least two more?
    They are priced in.
    Why not a full point tomorrow?
    Get it over and done with.
    Can someone explain?
    That makes sense. They can always claw some back if it looks excessive down the line. Don't you think it might be a full half a percentage point tomorrow?
    Yes.
    It might be. Would be surprised though.
    Every move has been timid.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,055
    Interesting thread on food inflation: https://twitter.com/leobarasi/status/1671494919704150018
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,405

    Heathener said:

    To @MikeSmithson I'd add that this is not just about Boris, although some of it is.

    Boris is definitely part of the problem because he reached a wing of voters, mainly northern red wall ones, who Sunak not only doesn't reach, but whom he has alienated. Boris has not gone away. Or, rather, by his exile he is reminding them of what they no longer have. Remember, they did not vote for Sunak. Every time Boris sticks his column in the Mail he's enflaming them against Sunak. These are also largely the 2019 stayaways who Mike has been warning about.

    But there are two other whammies

    One is the mortgage crisis, which is awful.

    The other inflation, ditto.

    And what are Labour going to do about inflation?

    I haven't seem any convincing answers to @Pulpstar 's excellent questions this morning.
    The first thing Labour are going to do about inflation is (correctly) point out that it is the Tories who got us here.

    Sunak's approach on inflation maybe the correct one - it maybe the only sensible one - but the Tories have made a lot of mistakes with the economy; the country is unlikely to risk them making any more for some time to come.
    I don’t disagree that mistakes have been made, but a lot of the problems we now face are primarily external and global. The pandemic and the war in ukraine are the main reasons for the high inflation now, not the Tories.
    But they will get the blame. Just as they blamed labour for 2008.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,663
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Probabilities for the next GE right now?

    I'm guessing:

    10% Tory wipe-out, Labour landslide
    30% Workable Labour majority
    40% Labour-led hung parliament
    15% Chaotic hung parliament, Tories largest party but unable to govern - 2nd election within 6 months
    5% Tory majority

    Question for me is what happens to voting reform if the Labour-led hung parliament comes to pass?

    35% Tory wipe out, Labour landslide
    35% Workable Labour majority
    25% Labour led hung parliament
    4.9999% Chaotic hung parliament, Tories largest party etc
    0.0001% Tory majority
    Yeah you may be right but... swing-back.
    Swing back why? Starmer is the least scary Labour leader since Blair. He is dull as fuck. No one will run away from his manifesto of zero promises, apart from a few True Blues who were never gonna vote for him anyway (public school charity status etc)

    Everyone hates the Tories. I mean, even I hate them and I generally (if not always) vote for them

    They cannot recover, there is no route, we are half way through 2023 and there is nothing but dark clouds on the horizon
    You're convincing me tbf.

    Electoral Calculus has a Labour majority at 92% I see:

    https://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/blogs/ec_rrose_20230601.html
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    To days news is wall to wall financial crisis with the elephant in the room being Brexit. Now that Johnson has gone commentators and others seem much less restrained in mentioning the great unmentionable. There's hardly anyone still talking it up or even prepared to defend it.

    Surely someone has got to mobilise the 17,000,000 (Now more likely to be 25,000,000) or they're going to get bounced around by this economic storm like everyone else and without even a loin cloth.

    Time for someone with courage or ambition to go for it.

    Personally, I have given up on the UK rejoining. I found it a lot easier to let my UK passport expire and just start using my Irish one.
    Are you allowed to have both? A friend has just got herself an Austrian passport which they'll give to any family of Austrian refugees from WW2 however many generations down the line and they can keep their UK one. You're very fortunate. In France people with properties are trying to invent the most crazy schemes to circumvent the rules. The French are now bringing in a non dom property tax which you can't blame them for doing. If Boris ever finds his way to the Cote d'Azur he'll be strung up
    The Irish do not mind their citizens being dual passport holders - and a lot of other countries are the same.
    The blue UK passport is much devalued since we left. And that was allegedly our key to sovereignty and the reason for leaving. What a joke!
    I wouldn’t say the U.K. passport power ranked as 3rd in the world was “much devalued” - ahead of the USA, Canada and on a par with Ireland….

    https://www.passportindex.org/byRank.php
    In practical terms it is.

    As I queue up at the non EU line at Schiphol with the Russians and the Turks for my shiny blue passports to be stamped by immigration, Beverley C. breezes past me in the Schengen line jauntily waving her Irish EU passport. As she checks into the Amstel Hotel I am still heading for the airport taxi rank.
    I repeat the comments detailed above. It’s a foundational argument that gets us that want to rejoin nowhere.

    Anyway, Ireland’s not in Schengen.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,647
    edited June 2023
    Leon said:

    Anybody who thinks the Tories have a chance has to factor that

    1. We have the same feeling of "kick the feckers out" and "time for a change" that we had in 1997

    PLUS

    2. We have a looming recession, a massive debt crisis, public services struggling, mortgage rates surging, on and on and on: unlike in 1997 when economic conditions were benign

    So the Tories are ultra-screwed. There is no way out of this. Meanwhile the SNP have exploded, opening the door for Starmer in Scotland, too

    Labour are gonna win, big or small, they are gonna win. But I predict they will become unpopular very quickly, when their lack of ideas is exposed

    Yep.

    1) kick the sleazy buggers out

    Combined with

    2) economic chaos, strikes and division comparable to 1979

    And season with:

    3) widespread Bregret

    4) SNP implosion

    It's very hard to see anything other than a Labour working majority despite the massive seat gains required
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    To days news is wall to wall financial crisis with the elephant in the room being Brexit. Now that Johnson has gone commentators and others seem much less restrained in mentioning the great unmentionable. There's hardly anyone still talking it up or even prepared to defend it.

    Surely someone has got to mobilise the 17,000,000 (Now more likely to be 25,000,000) or they're going to get bounced around by this economic storm like everyone else and without even a loin cloth.

    Time for someone with courage or ambition to go for it.

    Personally, I have given up on the UK rejoining. I found it a lot easier to let my UK passport expire and just start using my Irish one.
    Are you allowed to have both? A friend has just got herself an Austrian passport which they'll give to any family of Austrian refugees from WW2 however many generations down the line and they can keep their UK one. You're very fortunate. In France people with properties are trying to invent the most crazy schemes to circumvent the rules. The French are now bringing in a non dom property tax which you can't blame them for doing. If Boris ever finds his way to the Cote d'Azur he'll be strung up
    The Irish do not mind their citizens being dual passport holders - and a lot of other countries are the same.
    The blue UK passport is much devalued since we left. And that was allegedly our key to sovereignty and the reason for leaving. What a joke!
    I wouldn’t say the U.K. passport power ranked as 3rd in the world was “much devalued” - ahead of the USA, Canada and on a par with Ireland….

    https://www.passportindex.org/byRank.php
    People tend to confuse a passport with citizenship. They are connected but not at all the same thing.
    True. I have had dual citizenship all my life, but Brexit made me apply for my Irish passport.
    Jesus. Yes, we know, you have Irish Citizenship, you never cease to tell is, like every other Remainer with at least one Hibernian grandparent. Would you like a medal as well? You all bang on about it so often it sounds as if you’d like some special prize for your accident of birth.

    The rest of us have to try and fix this situation and listening to your “I’m all right Jack” tales isn’t helping and doesn’t help. Sure, you don’t think Brexit will be reversed, but you (as you keep reminding us) don’t have to worry about it do you? It’s not helpful, it just fights the last battle, and proudly proclaims an abstention from the next.
    i think Rejoiners have not focused on the reality of the EU as it is now. It has already moved on from Brexit. Legislation is now pouring out of Brussels (see the journalism spyware stuff below). Brussels is trying to intrusively regulate everything from AI to crypto to the care of dormice, and it is still constantly expanding its powers. eg They have now pooled debt to pay for Covid

    We don't notice this precisely because we are no longer in it. If we'd had a narrow Remain win the clamour for Brexit would now be defeaning, and the demands for a second vote would be overwhelming the Tory Party

    On that basis I do not believe we will Rejoin. The other reason is that if we are ever so desperate that we ask to rejoin, the French and the Irish (and maybe others) will threaten us with a veto until we agree to terms so invidious we will abandon the task
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,860
    murali_s said:

    Living in London is a bit of an echo chamber for progressive politics. Very few Tories here, and even the few that are here think Brexit is a total clusterf*ck. Does anyone actually seriously think think Brexit is beneficial? Anyone?

    It's not so bad if you get flashed by a speed camera in France, Italy or Switzerland
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368
    Farooq said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Farooq said:

    Pagan2 said:

    WillG said:

    There’s an old joke from Glasgow:

    “Are you Catholic or Protestant?”
    “Neither, I’m Atheist.”
    “Aye, but are you a Catholic Atheist or a Protestant Atheist?”

    That’s the problem with ‘cis’ - it buys into the belief system, it assumes you have a ‘gender identity’……

    Insisting everyone has a ‘gender identity’ is akin to insisting everyone has a ‘soul’. It’s not insulting in itself, but if you keep on about it and can’t grasp that some people don’t share your belief, then they might get narked at you.

    “But ‘cis’ just means the opposite of ‘trans’!”

    Great - so what does ‘trans’ mean? It can’t be defined without referring to ‘gender identity’, a metaphysical belief.


    https://twitter.com/bencooper/status/1671533767691759621?s=20

    That's rubbish. Of course everyone has a gender identity. I think of myself as male. Even if you are the sort of person that thinks all trans people are mentally deluded, any everyone by rights should have the same gender and biological sex, gender identity still provably exists. In the way that a soul isn't provable.
    How do you prove your gender? How do you test for it?

    Your sex is in your chromosomes and for the overwhelming majority demonstrated in their reproductive organs. It’s binary in the overwhelming majority of mammals.

    How many genders are there?

    107?

    https://www.sexualdiversity.org/edu/1111.php

    If not, how many? And how do you prove it?

    Gender is a social construct and a belief system.

    Unsurprisingly some are rejecting compelled belief and compelled speech.
    If we accept gender is a social construct, does that mean that we should ignore gender in law? Should we support or make life difficult for people who want to change gender?

    Ethnicity is a social construct. Religion is a social construct. These things have protection in law (albeit different ones). Money is a social construct. Democracy is a social construct. Lots of interesting and nice things are social constructs!
    Religion certainly shouldn't be protected by law, nor ethnicity. Democracy and money aren't protected already you are free to advocate for a dictatorship or a cash free society based on barter
    There's a big difference between advocating for political change and just doing stuff.

    You can advocate for dictatorship.
    You can advocate for racist policies too.

    But you can't just set yourself up as a dictator. And you can't go around enacting racist workplace policies for example. Because the laws forbid those.

    Freedom to say what you think should be the case is different to acting like it's already the case.
    So if I walk round with an "( insert deity of choice) is an arsehole" tshirt on do you think the likely result is a) I will get a few people shaking their head or b) I get arrested

    I suspect we all know the answer is b)

    So it is ok to proclaim "(deity of choice) is great" but not the opposite. Each are equally valid as opinions
    Jesus is an arsehole.
    Mohammad is an arsehole.
    Abraham, Gautama Buddha, Rishabhadeva: arseholes.
    And any gods they tell us about: arseholes.
    ...and may your God go with you.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    Anybody who thinks the Tories have a chance has to factor that

    1. We have the same feeling of "kick the feckers out" and "time for a change" that we had in 1997

    PLUS

    2. We have a looming recession, a massive debt crisis, public services struggling, mortgage rates surging, on and on and on: unlike in 1997 when economic conditions were benign

    So the Tories are ultra-screwed. There is no way out of this. Meanwhile the SNP have exploded, opening the door for Starmer in Scotland, too

    Labour are gonna win, big or small, they are gonna win. But I predict they will become unpopular very quickly, when their lack of ideas is exposed

    Yep.

    1) kick the sleazy buggers out

    Combined with

    2) economic chaos, strikes and division comparable to 1979

    And season with:

    3) widespread Bregret

    4) SNP implosion

    It's very hard to see anything other than a Labour working majority despite the massive seat gains required
    The only counter-vailing factor is the dullness of Starmer. He is so uninspiring. However, again, Starmer is lucky in his opponents. Sunak is a squeaky sixth form trillionaire leprechaun with a tax-swerving non dom foreign wife. Hard to entirely dislike, but not exactly Abe Lincoln. Meanwhile the Nats have lost Sturgeon and put in Yousless. And I forget the name of the Lib Dem woman

    Labour Win. Probably a big win

  • londonpubmanlondonpubman Posts: 3,639
    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    Heathener said:

    To @MikeSmithson I'd add that this is not just about Boris, although some of it is.

    Boris is definitely part of the problem because he reached a wing of voters, mainly northern red wall ones, who Sunak not only doesn't reach, but whom he has alienated. Boris has not gone away. Or, rather, by his exile he is reminding them of what they no longer have. Remember, they did not vote for Sunak. Every time Boris sticks his column in the Mail he's enflaming them against Sunak. These are also largely the 2019 stayaways who Mike has been warning about.

    But there are two other whammies

    One is the mortgage crisis, which is awful.

    The other inflation, ditto.

    And what are Labour going to do about inflation?

    I haven't seem any convincing answers to @Pulpstar 's excellent questions this morning.
    There is a tipping point where the evils of inflation have to be balanced against the evils of repossessions and recession.

    Interest rates are the BoE's only weapon. I heard the analogy that it's like playing the US Masters with just a 3 iron.

    I suspect Reeves with her backstory may be more imaginative than Sunak and Hunt. I hope she is anyway.
    So, she either has to do exactly the same thing she's currently attacking the Government for doing, or we're crossing our fingers and hoping she has some magic beans instead then?

    Right!
    I don't know.

    I suspect if you wanted to point a finger at anyone for dropping the ball it's Bailey and the BoE. They were advised to raise interest rates far earlier than they did. Maybe a quick, shorter, sharper shock would be more effective.

    You could also question Hunt as to why he has only met the mortgage provider Lobby today when the likes of Martin Lewis were advising action would be needed in 2023 last November.

    Maybe Reeves has some ideas, maybe not. Your lot are clean out of them.
    On which point. What is the point of a quarter or half point rise tomorrow when everyone knows there will be at least two more?
    They are priced in.
    Why not a full point tomorrow?
    Get it over and done with.
    Can someone explain?
    That makes sense. They can always claw some back if it looks excessive down the line. Don't you think it might be a full half a percentage point tomorrow?
    Yes.
    It might be. Would be surprised though.
    Every move has been timid.
    It needs to be 0.5% but they have not hurried themselves in putting the rates up.

    Notwithstanding this small chance of 0.75%
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,821
    SteveS said:

    Farooq said:

    boulay said:

    Farooq said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Farooq said:

    Pagan2 said:

    WillG said:

    There’s an old joke from Glasgow:

    “Are you Catholic or Protestant?”
    “Neither, I’m Atheist.”
    “Aye, but are you a Catholic Atheist or a Protestant Atheist?”

    That’s the problem with ‘cis’ - it buys into the belief system, it assumes you have a ‘gender identity’……

    Insisting everyone has a ‘gender identity’ is akin to insisting everyone has a ‘soul’. It’s not insulting in itself, but if you keep on about it and can’t grasp that some people don’t share your belief, then they might get narked at you.

    “But ‘cis’ just means the opposite of ‘trans’!”

    Great - so what does ‘trans’ mean? It can’t be defined without referring to ‘gender identity’, a metaphysical belief.


    https://twitter.com/bencooper/status/1671533767691759621?s=20

    That's rubbish. Of course everyone has a gender identity. I think of myself as male. Even if you are the sort of person that thinks all trans people are mentally deluded, any everyone by rights should have the same gender and biological sex, gender identity still provably exists. In the way that a soul isn't provable.
    How do you prove your gender? How do you test for it?

    Your sex is in your chromosomes and for the overwhelming majority demonstrated in their reproductive organs. It’s binary in the overwhelming majority of mammals.

    How many genders are there?

    107?

    https://www.sexualdiversity.org/edu/1111.php

    If not, how many? And how do you prove it?

    Gender is a social construct and a belief system.

    Unsurprisingly some are rejecting compelled belief and compelled speech.
    If we accept gender is a social construct, does that mean that we should ignore gender in law? Should we support or make life difficult for people who want to change gender?

    Ethnicity is a social construct. Religion is a social construct. These things have protection in law (albeit different ones). Money is a social construct. Democracy is a social construct. Lots of interesting and nice things are social constructs!
    Religion certainly shouldn't be protected by law, nor ethnicity. Democracy and money aren't protected already you are free to advocate for a dictatorship or a cash free society based on barter
    There's a big difference between advocating for political change and just doing stuff.

    You can advocate for dictatorship.
    You can advocate for racist policies too.

    But you can't just set yourself up as a dictator. And you can't go around enacting racist workplace policies for example. Because the laws forbid those.

    Freedom to say what you think should be the case is different to acting like it's already the case.
    So if I walk round with an "( insert deity of choice) is an arsehole" tshirt on do you think the likely result is a) I will get a few people shaking their head or b) I get arrested

    I suspect we all know the answer is b)

    So it is ok to proclaim "(deity of choice) is great" but not the opposite. Each are equally valid as opinions
    Jesus is an arsehole.
    Mohammad is an arsehole.
    Abraham, Gautama Buddha, Rishabhadeva: arseholes.
    And any gods they tell us about: arseholes.
    Not one of my favourite Radiohead songs but each to their own.
    I quite like the track "God is dead" but it's a bit of a Nietzsche interest
    "Blasphemous Rumours" by Depeche Mode?
    NIN I think?

    But both are excellent.

    Steve.
    It was Depeche Mode, back in 1984!
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,717

    Interesting thread on food inflation: https://twitter.com/leobarasi/status/1671494919704150018

    It explains why many food prices have risen relative to other goods and services. But it does not explain the more general rise in prices, which is down to monetary incontinence
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    Leon said:

    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    To days news is wall to wall financial crisis with the elephant in the room being Brexit. Now that Johnson has gone commentators and others seem much less restrained in mentioning the great unmentionable. There's hardly anyone still talking it up or even prepared to defend it.

    Surely someone has got to mobilise the 17,000,000 (Now more likely to be 25,000,000) or they're going to get bounced around by this economic storm like everyone else and without even a loin cloth.

    Time for someone with courage or ambition to go for it.

    Personally, I have given up on the UK rejoining. I found it a lot easier to let my UK passport expire and just start using my Irish one.
    Are you allowed to have both? A friend has just got herself an Austrian passport which they'll give to any family of Austrian refugees from WW2 however many generations down the line and they can keep their UK one. You're very fortunate. In France people with properties are trying to invent the most crazy schemes to circumvent the rules. The French are now bringing in a non dom property tax which you can't blame them for doing. If Boris ever finds his way to the Cote d'Azur he'll be strung up
    The Irish do not mind their citizens being dual passport holders - and a lot of other countries are the same.
    The blue UK passport is much devalued since we left. And that was allegedly our key to sovereignty and the reason for leaving. What a joke!
    I wouldn’t say the U.K. passport power ranked as 3rd in the world was “much devalued” - ahead of the USA, Canada and on a par with Ireland….

    https://www.passportindex.org/byRank.php
    People tend to confuse a passport with citizenship. They are connected but not at all the same thing.
    True. I have had dual citizenship all my life, but Brexit made me apply for my Irish passport.
    Jesus. Yes, we know, you have Irish Citizenship, you never cease to tell is, like every other Remainer with at least one Hibernian grandparent. Would you like a medal as well? You all bang on about it so often it sounds as if you’d like some special prize for your accident of birth.

    The rest of us have to try and fix this situation and listening to your “I’m all right Jack” tales isn’t helping and doesn’t help. Sure, you don’t think Brexit will be reversed, but you (as you keep reminding us) don’t have to worry about it do you? It’s not helpful, it just fights the last battle, and proudly proclaims an abstention from the next.
    i think Rejoiners have not focused on the reality of the EU as it is now. It has already moved on from Brexit. Legislation is now pouring out of Brussels (see the journalism spyware stuff below). Brussels is trying to intrusively regulate everything from AI to crypto to the care of dormice, and it is still constantly expanding its powers. eg They have now pooled debt to pay for Covid

    We don't notice this precisely because we are no longer in it. If we'd had a narrow Remain win the clamour for Brexit would now be defeaning, and the demands for a second vote would be overwhelming the Tory Party

    On that basis I do not believe we will Rejoin. The other reason is that if we are ever so desperate that we ask to rejoin, the French and the Irish (and maybe others) will threaten us with a veto until we agree to terms so invidious we will abandon the task
    Your analysis is only cogent if the “legislation pouring out of Brussels”, as you inelegantly put it, fails to make the lives of citizens in the EU better than the “legislation seeping out of Westminster”, as I inelegantly put it, makes us. For example, your journalism spyware story can be countered with the possibility that WhatsApp will pull out of the U.K. (https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/why-whatsapp-could-quit-the-uk-over-the-online-safety-bill/) over the Online Safety Bill. Which of those legislative digital intrusions impacts people more?

    People link Brexit less to legislation pouring out of the Belgian capital as they do shit pouring onto our beaches.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,900
    I posted this observation this morning and now see the Grauniad talking about it too

    https://www.theguardian.com/money/2023/jun/21/1-point-4m-uk-households-huge-hit-to-finances-mortgage-timebomb-payments-fifth-disposale-income

    All that money which will be swallowed by bigger mortgage payments is money taken from the economy. Money no longer being spent on products and services, which will cost people jobs...
  • PhilPhil Posts: 2,315
    Cyclefree said:

    Phil said:

    Cyclefree said:


    What is the social utility of allowing this? What are the disadvantages and for whom?

    Because Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness includes being whatever gender you want to be. What business is it of yours what gender someone presents as? They aren’t hurting you by doing so.

    The libertarians have this one right.

    In some dim & distant future, medical technology will probably advance to the point that altering the gender of your physical form is a matter of dropping into the local DNA reprogramming centre, just as we can now control our fertility at will if we choose to. Exactly what point will your insistence on this kind of gender purism have then?
    Because if a man calls himself a woman and is one for legal purposes it most certainly does affect me. It means that I no longer have the right to a single sex space or service, my ability to challenge discrimination on the grounds of sex is diminished, my ability to compete fairly in sports is taken away and so on.

    A man can dress and call himself what he wants. But giving legal effect to such a private choice does impact others and it is only the selfish narcissism of those demanding this which fails to see this and/or attacks those who raise this. It is not libertarianism. It is a childish "I want, I get" demand.

    As for your second para, I'll believe that when I see it. I'll take the view of Professor Sir Robert Winston over yours.
    Oh, I’m fairly sure both you & I will be dead & buried before that comes to pass, but the arc of progress is long.

    Meanwhile in the here & now you insist on referring to trans people in ever more demeaning ways & seem to be almost unable to post about them without associating them with some kind of sexual deviance. I find that a little sad: the trans people I know have never struck me as narcissistic, or particularly selfish: They just want to live their lives.

    Your insistence on never having to see them in your so-called “single sex spaces” has the effect of forcing them out of public life altogether. This hardly seems a fair exchange? If I’m honest it sounds to me as if you’re projecting “I want & I get” onto them: You want them out of your spaces & you don’t care what it costs them.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    DougSeal said:

    Leon said:

    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    To days news is wall to wall financial crisis with the elephant in the room being Brexit. Now that Johnson has gone commentators and others seem much less restrained in mentioning the great unmentionable. There's hardly anyone still talking it up or even prepared to defend it.

    Surely someone has got to mobilise the 17,000,000 (Now more likely to be 25,000,000) or they're going to get bounced around by this economic storm like everyone else and without even a loin cloth.

    Time for someone with courage or ambition to go for it.

    Personally, I have given up on the UK rejoining. I found it a lot easier to let my UK passport expire and just start using my Irish one.
    Are you allowed to have both? A friend has just got herself an Austrian passport which they'll give to any family of Austrian refugees from WW2 however many generations down the line and they can keep their UK one. You're very fortunate. In France people with properties are trying to invent the most crazy schemes to circumvent the rules. The French are now bringing in a non dom property tax which you can't blame them for doing. If Boris ever finds his way to the Cote d'Azur he'll be strung up
    The Irish do not mind their citizens being dual passport holders - and a lot of other countries are the same.
    The blue UK passport is much devalued since we left. And that was allegedly our key to sovereignty and the reason for leaving. What a joke!
    I wouldn’t say the U.K. passport power ranked as 3rd in the world was “much devalued” - ahead of the USA, Canada and on a par with Ireland….

    https://www.passportindex.org/byRank.php
    People tend to confuse a passport with citizenship. They are connected but not at all the same thing.
    True. I have had dual citizenship all my life, but Brexit made me apply for my Irish passport.
    Jesus. Yes, we know, you have Irish Citizenship, you never cease to tell is, like every other Remainer with at least one Hibernian grandparent. Would you like a medal as well? You all bang on about it so often it sounds as if you’d like some special prize for your accident of birth.

    The rest of us have to try and fix this situation and listening to your “I’m all right Jack” tales isn’t helping and doesn’t help. Sure, you don’t think Brexit will be reversed, but you (as you keep reminding us) don’t have to worry about it do you? It’s not helpful, it just fights the last battle, and proudly proclaims an abstention from the next.
    i think Rejoiners have not focused on the reality of the EU as it is now. It has already moved on from Brexit. Legislation is now pouring out of Brussels (see the journalism spyware stuff below). Brussels is trying to intrusively regulate everything from AI to crypto to the care of dormice, and it is still constantly expanding its powers. eg They have now pooled debt to pay for Covid

    We don't notice this precisely because we are no longer in it. If we'd had a narrow Remain win the clamour for Brexit would now be defeaning, and the demands for a second vote would be overwhelming the Tory Party

    On that basis I do not believe we will Rejoin. The other reason is that if we are ever so desperate that we ask to rejoin, the French and the Irish (and maybe others) will threaten us with a veto until we agree to terms so invidious we will abandon the task
    Your analysis is only cogent if the “legislation pouring out of Brussels”, as you inelegantly put it, fails to make the lives of citizens in the EU better than the “legislation seeping out of Westminster”, as I inelegantly put it, makes us. For example, your journalism spyware story can be countered with the possibility that WhatsApp will pull out of the U.K. (https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/why-whatsapp-could-quit-the-uk-over-the-online-safety-bill/) over the Online Safety Bill. Which of those legislative digital intrusions impacts people more?

    People link Brexit less to legislation pouring out of the Belgian capital as they do shit pouring onto our beaches.
    But that's it. If you are angry that British legislation has made WhatsApp pull out, then you sack the government at the next election, and get a new govrnment which will reverse the stupid law

    That's democracy. That's why and how it works

    What do you do, as an EU citizen, if you hate an EU law?

    *tumbleweed*
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,821
    Taz said:

    Taz said:

    viewcode said:

    Taz said:

    viewcode said:

    Taz said:

    viewcode said:

    viewcode said:
    So which one of you is Spartacus?
    I think we are all Spartacus in some way. Although hopefully not the "crucified on the Appian Way" way, because that would be...bad. :smiley:
    I am he as you are he and you are me and we are all together…..
    Third Doctor: "...Jo, it's quite simple. I am he and he is me"
    Jo Grant: "...and we are all together, koo koo kichoo"
    Second Doctor: "What"
    Jo Grant: "It's a song by the Beatles..."

    (The Three Doctors, 1973)
    Yay, You’ve redeemed yourself after the Terror of the Autons miss 😀😀😀😀

    Here’s some seventies kitsch.

    https://youtu.be/DNuco0p55dc
    Thank you for the link, which I watched with gr...oh my goodness it was awful. Well, to be honest, it wasn't bad, and certainly not rubbish, but very of its time.

    Two weeks before: Mike and Bernie Winters! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=foGD5DbLJck
    Bloody hell, Peter Gordeno is in that one ! From UFO.

    I am going to grab some of these tomorrow as I am working from home. YouTube has some good stuff being posted. There’s an account called Nostalgia who posts some great one off plays and dramas.

    Loved the original Mike Batt theme, there’s a TOTP that exists with him playing it and, Pans People are dancing to it.

    I did watch that play for tomorrow, Crimes, I think you posted. I got it off thebox a few years ago. It was hard going apart from the lovely Sylvestra La Touzel.
    I saw Peter Gordeno at Twickenham on Saturday playing keyboards and bass guitar for Depeche Mode!
    As a hologram or a reanimated cadaver ?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Gordeno_(musician)
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,075
    edited June 2023

    Taz said:

    Taz said:

    viewcode said:

    Taz said:

    viewcode said:

    Taz said:

    viewcode said:

    viewcode said:
    So which one of you is Spartacus?
    I think we are all Spartacus in some way. Although hopefully not the "crucified on the Appian Way" way, because that would be...bad. :smiley:
    I am he as you are he and you are me and we are all together…..
    Third Doctor: "...Jo, it's quite simple. I am he and he is me"
    Jo Grant: "...and we are all together, koo koo kichoo"
    Second Doctor: "What"
    Jo Grant: "It's a song by the Beatles..."

    (The Three Doctors, 1973)
    Yay, You’ve redeemed yourself after the Terror of the Autons miss 😀😀😀😀

    Here’s some seventies kitsch.

    https://youtu.be/DNuco0p55dc
    Thank you for the link, which I watched with gr...oh my goodness it was awful. Well, to be honest, it wasn't bad, and certainly not rubbish, but very of its time.

    Two weeks before: Mike and Bernie Winters! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=foGD5DbLJck
    Bloody hell, Peter Gordeno is in that one ! From UFO.

    I am going to grab some of these tomorrow as I am working from home. YouTube has some good stuff being posted. There’s an account called Nostalgia who posts some great one off plays and dramas.

    Loved the original Mike Batt theme, there’s a TOTP that exists with him playing it and, Pans People are dancing to it.

    I did watch that play for tomorrow, Crimes, I think you posted. I got it off thebox a few years ago. It was hard going apart from the lovely Sylvestra La Touzel.
    I saw Peter Gordeno at Twickenham on Saturday playing keyboards and bass guitar for Depeche Mode!
    As a hologram or a reanimated cadaver ?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Gordeno_(musician)
    Not https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Gordeno . The one Taz meant is the link I gave, an actor/singer/performer from the 1960/70s. The one Sunil meant is the link he gave, a musician from some years later.
  • CorrectHorseBatCorrectHorseBat Posts: 1,761
    I am Horse.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368

    I posted this observation this morning and now see the Grauniad talking about it too

    https://www.theguardian.com/money/2023/jun/21/1-point-4m-uk-households-huge-hit-to-finances-mortgage-timebomb-payments-fifth-disposale-income

    All that money which will be swallowed by bigger mortgage payments is money taken from the economy. Money no longer being spent on products and services, which will cost people jobs...

    Isn't that the masterplan?
  • PhilPhil Posts: 2,315
    Pagan2 said:

    Phil said:

    Cyclefree said:


    What is the social utility of allowing this? What are the disadvantages and for whom?

    Because Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness includes being whatever gender you want to be. What business is it of yours what gender someone presents as? They aren’t hurting you by doing so.

    The libertarians have this one right.

    In some dim & distant future, medical technology will probably advance to the point that altering the gender of your physical form is a matter of dropping into the local DNA reprogramming centre, just as we can now control our fertility at will if we choose to. Exactly what point will your insistence on this kind of gender purism have then?
    The libertarian argument however is your right to swing your fist at the point of my nose and this is relevant because someone declaring themselves a certain gender impinges on the rights of those born of the biological sex of those usually associated with that gender.

    A guy or girl wants to dress as the opposite gender - really dont care and doesn't bother me

    A guy or girl wants to go into a toilet based on what they believe their gender is - again dont care

    However for prisons, therapy, refuges, sports etc where people have a right to safeguarding and not have to share these spaces with someone of the opposite biological sex that has not transitioned then no they can fuck right off they are a delusional in their belief they should be able to as a scientologist
    I have said before that on prisons & other places where safeguarding applies, “transness” cannot override genuine risk - e.g. where someone has been convicted of sexual offences. Sports I personally don’t care about, except at the elite level: The vast majority of people are going to get beaten by somebody, because elite athletes are so far beyond even normal athletes in performance. Whether that’s someone of their gender or not is not going to change that reality! Individual sports are free to set their own terms, according to the views of their players. Many amateur sports seem happy to include trans players. Those who are not, don’t.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,663

    I posted this observation this morning and now see the Grauniad talking about it too

    https://www.theguardian.com/money/2023/jun/21/1-point-4m-uk-households-huge-hit-to-finances-mortgage-timebomb-payments-fifth-disposale-income

    All that money which will be swallowed by bigger mortgage payments is money taken from the economy. Money no longer being spent on products and services, which will cost people jobs...

    I don't disagree but where does that money actually go?

    I assume: higher savers interest payments, higher bank profits/dividends, higher bank bonuses. None of which will do much to keep the economy going.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,134
    Leon said:

    DougSeal said:

    Leon said:

    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    To days news is wall to wall financial crisis with the elephant in the room being Brexit. Now that Johnson has gone commentators and others seem much less restrained in mentioning the great unmentionable. There's hardly anyone still talking it up or even prepared to defend it.

    Surely someone has got to mobilise the 17,000,000 (Now more likely to be 25,000,000) or they're going to get bounced around by this economic storm like everyone else and without even a loin cloth.

    Time for someone with courage or ambition to go for it.

    Personally, I have given up on the UK rejoining. I found it a lot easier to let my UK passport expire and just start using my Irish one.
    Are you allowed to have both? A friend has just got herself an Austrian passport which they'll give to any family of Austrian refugees from WW2 however many generations down the line and they can keep their UK one. You're very fortunate. In France people with properties are trying to invent the most crazy schemes to circumvent the rules. The French are now bringing in a non dom property tax which you can't blame them for doing. If Boris ever finds his way to the Cote d'Azur he'll be strung up
    The Irish do not mind their citizens being dual passport holders - and a lot of other countries are the same.
    The blue UK passport is much devalued since we left. And that was allegedly our key to sovereignty and the reason for leaving. What a joke!
    I wouldn’t say the U.K. passport power ranked as 3rd in the world was “much devalued” - ahead of the USA, Canada and on a par with Ireland….

    https://www.passportindex.org/byRank.php
    People tend to confuse a passport with citizenship. They are connected but not at all the same thing.
    True. I have had dual citizenship all my life, but Brexit made me apply for my Irish passport.
    Jesus. Yes, we know, you have Irish Citizenship, you never cease to tell is, like every other Remainer with at least one Hibernian grandparent. Would you like a medal as well? You all bang on about it so often it sounds as if you’d like some special prize for your accident of birth.

    The rest of us have to try and fix this situation and listening to your “I’m all right Jack” tales isn’t helping and doesn’t help. Sure, you don’t think Brexit will be reversed, but you (as you keep reminding us) don’t have to worry about it do you? It’s not helpful, it just fights the last battle, and proudly proclaims an abstention from the next.
    i think Rejoiners have not focused on the reality of the EU as it is now. It has already moved on from Brexit. Legislation is now pouring out of Brussels (see the journalism spyware stuff below). Brussels is trying to intrusively regulate everything from AI to crypto to the care of dormice, and it is still constantly expanding its powers. eg They have now pooled debt to pay for Covid

    We don't notice this precisely because we are no longer in it. If we'd had a narrow Remain win the clamour for Brexit would now be defeaning, and the demands for a second vote would be overwhelming the Tory Party

    On that basis I do not believe we will Rejoin. The other reason is that if we are ever so desperate that we ask to rejoin, the French and the Irish (and maybe others) will threaten us with a veto until we agree to terms so invidious we will abandon the task
    Your analysis is only cogent if the “legislation pouring out of Brussels”, as you inelegantly put it, fails to make the lives of citizens in the EU better than the “legislation seeping out of Westminster”, as I inelegantly put it, makes us. For example, your journalism spyware story can be countered with the possibility that WhatsApp will pull out of the U.K. (https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/why-whatsapp-could-quit-the-uk-over-the-online-safety-bill/) over the Online Safety Bill. Which of those legislative digital intrusions impacts people more?

    People link Brexit less to legislation pouring out of the Belgian capital as they do shit pouring onto our beaches.
    But that's it. If you are angry that British legislation has made WhatsApp pull out, then you sack the government at the next election, and get a new govrnment which will reverse the stupid law

    That's democracy. That's why and how it works

    What do you do, as an EU citizen, if you hate an EU law?

    *tumbleweed*
    Odd that other EU member states don't feel it's incompatible with sovereignty or democracy. Guess we're the special one. This sceptred isle that once ruled the waves and stood alone against Nazi Germany.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,033

    I posted this observation this morning and now see the Grauniad talking about it too

    https://www.theguardian.com/money/2023/jun/21/1-point-4m-uk-households-huge-hit-to-finances-mortgage-timebomb-payments-fifth-disposale-income

    All that money which will be swallowed by bigger mortgage payments is money taken from the economy. Money no longer being spent on products and services, which will cost people jobs...

    It will indeed but there are a considerable number who benefit from higher interest rates

    It is a terrible time for fixed rate mortgage holders on a par with the 1990s, with repossession and negative equity beckoning and most likely a fall in house prices if it mirrors those days 30 years ago
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    DougSeal said:

    Leon said:

    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    To days news is wall to wall financial crisis with the elephant in the room being Brexit. Now that Johnson has gone commentators and others seem much less restrained in mentioning the great unmentionable. There's hardly anyone still talking it up or even prepared to defend it.

    Surely someone has got to mobilise the 17,000,000 (Now more likely to be 25,000,000) or they're going to get bounced around by this economic storm like everyone else and without even a loin cloth.

    Time for someone with courage or ambition to go for it.

    Personally, I have given up on the UK rejoining. I found it a lot easier to let my UK passport expire and just start using my Irish one.
    Are you allowed to have both? A friend has just got herself an Austrian passport which they'll give to any family of Austrian refugees from WW2 however many generations down the line and they can keep their UK one. You're very fortunate. In France people with properties are trying to invent the most crazy schemes to circumvent the rules. The French are now bringing in a non dom property tax which you can't blame them for doing. If Boris ever finds his way to the Cote d'Azur he'll be strung up
    The Irish do not mind their citizens being dual passport holders - and a lot of other countries are the same.
    The blue UK passport is much devalued since we left. And that was allegedly our key to sovereignty and the reason for leaving. What a joke!
    I wouldn’t say the U.K. passport power ranked as 3rd in the world was “much devalued” - ahead of the USA, Canada and on a par with Ireland….

    https://www.passportindex.org/byRank.php
    People tend to confuse a passport with citizenship. They are connected but not at all the same thing.
    True. I have had dual citizenship all my life, but Brexit made me apply for my Irish passport.
    Jesus. Yes, we know, you have Irish Citizenship, you never cease to tell is, like every other Remainer with at least one Hibernian grandparent. Would you like a medal as well? You all bang on about it so often it sounds as if you’d like some special prize for your accident of birth.

    The rest of us have to try and fix this situation and listening to your “I’m all right Jack” tales isn’t helping and doesn’t help. Sure, you don’t think Brexit will be reversed, but you (as you keep reminding us) don’t have to worry about it do you? It’s not helpful, it just fights the last battle, and proudly proclaims an abstention from the next.
    i think Rejoiners have not focused on the reality of the EU as it is now. It has already moved on from Brexit. Legislation is now pouring out of Brussels (see the journalism spyware stuff below). Brussels is trying to intrusively regulate everything from AI to crypto to the care of dormice, and it is still constantly expanding its powers. eg They have now pooled debt to pay for Covid

    We don't notice this precisely because we are no longer in it. If we'd had a narrow Remain win the clamour for Brexit would now be defeaning, and the demands for a second vote would be overwhelming the Tory Party

    On that basis I do not believe we will Rejoin. The other reason is that if we are ever so desperate that we ask to rejoin, the French and the Irish (and maybe others) will threaten us with a veto until we agree to terms so invidious we will abandon the task
    Your analysis is only cogent if the “legislation pouring out of Brussels”, as you inelegantly put it, fails to make the lives of citizens in the EU better than the “legislation seeping out of Westminster”, as I inelegantly put it, makes us. For example, your journalism spyware story can be countered with the possibility that WhatsApp will pull out of the U.K. (https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/why-whatsapp-could-quit-the-uk-over-the-online-safety-bill/) over the Online Safety Bill. Which of those legislative digital intrusions impacts people more?

    People link Brexit less to legislation pouring out of the Belgian capital as they do shit pouring onto our beaches.
    But that's it. If you are angry that British legislation has made WhatsApp pull out, then you sack the government at the next election, and get a new govrnment which will reverse the stupid law

    That's democracy. That's why and how it works

    What do you do, as an EU citizen, if you hate an EU law?

    *tumbleweed*
    Odd that other EU member states don't feel it's incompatible with sovereignty or democracy. Guess we're the special one. This sceptred isle that once ruled the waves and stood alone against Nazi Germany.
    Well, yes
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