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Will the Coronation overshadow likely Tory losses in the locals? – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,162
edited May 2023 in General
imageWill the Coronation overshadow likely Tory losses in the locals? – politicalbetting.com

There has been a fair bit of speculation that the likely Tory drubbing that the party will get in the locals will be drowned out in media coverage terms by Saturday’s Coronation. I am sure that’s right but I don’t think that this will help Sunak.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,921
    The local election results are tomorrow night and Friday, the coronation isn't until Saturday so I doubt there will be too much clash.

    On the current forecast the Tories will lose 400-500 seats, much better than Major did in 1995 or May did in 2019 or even Blair did in 1999, 2003 and 2007 at the same stage of the local elections cycle.

    So the results may not be the annihilation for Rishi's party some predict
  • londonpubmanlondonpubman Posts: 3,639
    Friday - the focus will be on the local election results

    Saturday - it's all about the Coronation!

    Or to put it another way, the local election results will not be that exciting!
  • El_CapitanoEl_Capitano Posts: 4,239
    edited May 2023
    Turns out a Conservative candidate for the locals in South Oxfordshire had previously been booted out the Brexit Party for being too racist:

    https://twitter.com/OxfordClarion/status/1653709837321084931

    You do wonder how "type candidate name into Google" appears not to have occurred to the people doing vetting.

    On the upside, Bob Dhillon is a fabulous name for a candidate. Subterranean Election-Sick Blues etc. etc.
  • AlistairMAlistairM Posts: 2,005
    FPT

    Ukrainian attack or Russian false flag? Russia are claiming an assassination attempt against Putin and they reserve the right to respond in kind:

    https://twitter.com/wartranslated/status/1653725485640081419?s=20

    Respond in kind? WTF have they been doing for the last 14 months? It is Ukraine who are now able to respond in kind.
  • AlistairMAlistairM Posts: 2,005
    FPT

    Video of a drone getting close to hitting the Kremlin. They only need to get lucky once.

    ⚡️⚡️The moment of the UAV attack on Putin's residence in the Kremlin
    https://twitter.com/front_ukrainian/status/1653734395260411904
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,822
    edited May 2023
    Eurovision will overshadow the results of the local elections.
    If we get two sunny days on the spin it will overshadow the results of the local elections.

    People not that fussed. And the betting markets not interesting either.....
  • pingping Posts: 3,805
    edited May 2023
    After reading this;

    https://ig.ft.com/quantum-computing/

    I simultaneously understand and don’t understand quantum computing.

    Good on the FT for having a crack at explaining it, though!
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,278
    edited May 2023
    HYUFD said:

    The local election results are tomorrow night and Friday, the coronation isn't until Saturday so I doubt there will be too much clash.

    On the current forecast the Tories will lose 400-500 seats, much better than Major did in 1995 or May did in 2019 or even Blair did in 1999, 2003 and 2007 at the same stage of the local elections cycle.

    So the results may not be the annihilation for Rishi's party some predict

    Given these seats were last fought at the nadir of the May Ministry there's got to be a chance Con exceed expectations here? They lost 1,330 councillors in the 2019 locals although Labour did badly too losing 84 councillors so there is room for Labour to do a lot better.

    It will be an interesting set of election these. I must just stay up for the night tomorrow night lol!
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,821

    Friday - the focus will be on the local election results

    Saturday - it's all about the Coronation!

    Or to put it another way, the local election results will not be that exciting!

    SPOILER ALERT - Charles will be confirmed as King, and his hag as Queen :)
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 21,971
    edited May 2023

    Just seen Sunak vs Starmer at PMQs and what an embarrassment Sunak is as Prime Minister. King of the NIMBYs banging on about giving "local control" to stop housing, when we have a housing crisis.

    If I hadn't already decided I won't vote Tory tomorrow, that would be a clincher.

    Cheshire and Amersham was a disappointment for seeing the Lib Dems win based on a disreputable NIMBY campaign, but the Tories have gone wholeheartedly to the dark side.

    I'm never voting for them again, until they become the party of aspiration again - which I can't ever see happening under Sunak.

    It will happen, but it's going to be a long slog. The Conservatives are prisoners of their electorate, who are now overwhelmingly retired homeowners who see no reason for any more development, thank you. I don't see how the Conservatives move to a different coalition without a purgative spell in opposition.

    Give him his due, Starmer is at least making "getting it" noises, though the devil will be in the details.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/starmers-growth-plan-is-built-on-houses-79jq7mz6r
    Yep. More of that and I might actually vote Labour next time, despite having thought I'd never do so again after Brown trashed the economy with his deficit spending.

    If Starmer can come up with a plan that involves getting stuff done, like construction, to move the economy instead of just throwing taxpayers money at every problem (like Brown) or just shutting up shop and managing decline (like Sunak) then he will deserve a term in Downing Street.

    Not holding my breath though.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216

    Eurovision will overshadow the results of the local elections.
    If we get two sunny days on the spin it will overshadow the results of the local elections.

    People not that fussed. And the betting markets not interesting either.....

    “Mid term kicking of an unpopular government” is up there with “dog bites man”…..it’s only saddos like us lot who are either paying attention or seeking to divine meaning from a procession of random accidents.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    QTWTAIN.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,921
    GIN1138 said:

    HYUFD said:

    The local election results are tomorrow night and Friday, the coronation isn't until Saturday so I doubt there will be too much clash.

    On the current forecast the Tories will lose 400-500 seats, much better than Major did in 1995 or May did in 2019 or even Blair did in 1999, 2003 and 2007 at the same stage of the local elections cycle.

    So the results may not be the annihilation for Rishi's party some predict

    Given these seats were last fought at the nadir of the May Ministry there's got to a chance Con exceed expectations here? They lost 1,330 councillors in the 2019 locals although Labour did badly too losing 84 councillors so there is room for Labour to do a lot better.

    It will be an interesting set of election these. I must just stay up for the night tomorrow night lol!
    Many seats are counting on Friday, including here in EFDC so you probably don't need to stay up Thursday night
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,278
    HYUFD said:

    GIN1138 said:

    HYUFD said:

    The local election results are tomorrow night and Friday, the coronation isn't until Saturday so I doubt there will be too much clash.

    On the current forecast the Tories will lose 400-500 seats, much better than Major did in 1995 or May did in 2019 or even Blair did in 1999, 2003 and 2007 at the same stage of the local elections cycle.

    So the results may not be the annihilation for Rishi's party some predict

    Given these seats were last fought at the nadir of the May Ministry there's got to a chance Con exceed expectations here? They lost 1,330 councillors in the 2019 locals although Labour did badly too losing 84 councillors so there is room for Labour to do a lot better.

    It will be an interesting set of election these. I must just stay up for the night tomorrow night lol!
    Many seats are counting on Friday, including here in EFDC so you probably don't need to stay up Thursday night
    Election nights just aren't what they used to be are they... :(
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    Why are we having a bank holiday if the coronation is on Saturday ?

    No one is going to be quite that hungover, surely ?
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,357
    theProle said:

    I think looking back, the Blair era expansion of university places has a lot to answer for, and is possibly a large part of the current malaise affecting the country today.

    Imagine if only 10% of the population went to university today, rather than almost 50%. This would mean around 2.25 million additional people in the workforce rather than education, and importantly this wouldn't cost any more in government services, pressure on housing etc. In addition if you shrunk the university sector by 80% that releases around another 180k people to do something more productive.

    Over the last 25 years, successive governments have turned to immigration to solve labour shortages - but each time is only a temporary fix, as the immigrants themselves need houses, doctors, supermarkets, pensions, and ultimately expect the standards of living as the rest of us.

    The only lasting fix involves increasing the productivity of the existing population until we can afford our desired standard of living. Turning three to five years in the prime of the lives of 40% of the population from being a massive cost all round to a net contribution seems to me to be an easy win.

    (all this is based on the dirty open secret in all this - namely that an average university education teaches very little that anyone actually needs to do a graduate job, but is merely a very expensive form of credentialism).

    Worth noting that, in 2020, nearly two-thirds of Irish second-level students went on to third-level education.

    Ireland has its problems as a country, but they seem to be different to Britain's, and its well-educated workforce is often cited by foreign companies investing in the country.

    Britain would be absolutely insane to cut the number of people receiving a third-level education, though I've spoken before about some of the weaknesses in third-level education in Britain compared to Ireland.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,278
    edited May 2023

    Friday - the focus will be on the local election results

    Saturday - it's all about the Coronation!

    Or to put it another way, the local election results will not be that exciting!

    SPOILER ALERT - Charles will be confirmed as King, and his hag as Queen :)
    Do I take it The Sunil isn't a fan of the former Mrs Parker-Bowles? :D
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,921
    Nigelb said:

    Why are we having a bank holiday if the coronation is on Saturday ?

    No one is going to be quite that hungover, surely ?

    For the national day of volunteering of course
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,405
    Nigelb said:

    Why are we having a bank holiday if the coronation is on Saturday ?

    No one is going to be quite that hungover, surely ?

    No idea, but I'm not complaining...
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,822
    Nigelb said:

    Why are we having a bank holiday if the coronation is on Saturday ?

    No one is going to be quite that hungover, surely ?

    So people can get away from it all?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,921
    GIN1138 said:

    HYUFD said:

    GIN1138 said:

    HYUFD said:

    The local election results are tomorrow night and Friday, the coronation isn't until Saturday so I doubt there will be too much clash.

    On the current forecast the Tories will lose 400-500 seats, much better than Major did in 1995 or May did in 2019 or even Blair did in 1999, 2003 and 2007 at the same stage of the local elections cycle.

    So the results may not be the annihilation for Rishi's party some predict

    Given these seats were last fought at the nadir of the May Ministry there's got to a chance Con exceed expectations here? They lost 1,330 councillors in the 2019 locals although Labour did badly too losing 84 councillors so there is room for Labour to do a lot better.

    It will be an interesting set of election these. I must just stay up for the night tomorrow night lol!
    Many seats are counting on Friday, including here in EFDC so you probably don't need to stay up Thursday night
    Election nights just aren't what they used to be are they... :(
    Local ones maybe, national general election counts are still nearly all completed on the night except for a handful from the most remote rural areas
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Prime Minister Anthony Albanese has made a controversial anti-trans statement in an interview with British television personality Piers Morgan.

    In an interview with the former TV presenter, Albanese was asked a range of questions, spanning the status of Australia’s independence, to the contentious ‘What is a woman?’

    “An adult female,” the Prime Minister replied.


    https://www.starobserver.com.au/news/anthony-albanese-repeats-antitrans-statements-in-piers-morgan-interview/223565
  • londonpubmanlondonpubman Posts: 3,639
    HYUFD said:

    GIN1138 said:

    HYUFD said:

    GIN1138 said:

    HYUFD said:

    The local election results are tomorrow night and Friday, the coronation isn't until Saturday so I doubt there will be too much clash.

    On the current forecast the Tories will lose 400-500 seats, much better than Major did in 1995 or May did in 2019 or even Blair did in 1999, 2003 and 2007 at the same stage of the local elections cycle.

    So the results may not be the annihilation for Rishi's party some predict

    Given these seats were last fought at the nadir of the May Ministry there's got to a chance Con exceed expectations here? They lost 1,330 councillors in the 2019 locals although Labour did badly too losing 84 councillors so there is room for Labour to do a lot better.

    It will be an interesting set of election these. I must just stay up for the night tomorrow night lol!
    Many seats are counting on Friday, including here in EFDC so you probably don't need to stay up Thursday night
    Election nights just aren't what they used to be are they... :(
    Local ones maybe, national general election counts are still nearly all completed on the night except for a handful from the most remote rural areas
    Let's hope they continue to be that way 👍
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,357
    edited May 2023
    Nigelb said:

    Why are we having a bank holiday if the coronation is on Saturday ?

    No one is going to be quite that hungover, surely ?

    It's very practical - get the formalities out of the way early and leave most of an extended weekend free for Bacchanalian pursuits.

    I expect William V's coronation will be squeezed into the Friday evening.
  • GIN1138 said:

    HYUFD said:

    GIN1138 said:

    HYUFD said:

    The local election results are tomorrow night and Friday, the coronation isn't until Saturday so I doubt there will be too much clash.

    On the current forecast the Tories will lose 400-500 seats, much better than Major did in 1995 or May did in 2019 or even Blair did in 1999, 2003 and 2007 at the same stage of the local elections cycle.

    So the results may not be the annihilation for Rishi's party some predict

    Given these seats were last fought at the nadir of the May Ministry there's got to a chance Con exceed expectations here? They lost 1,330 councillors in the 2019 locals although Labour did badly too losing 84 councillors so there is room for Labour to do a lot better.

    It will be an interesting set of election these. I must just stay up for the night tomorrow night lol!
    Many seats are counting on Friday, including here in EFDC so you probably don't need to stay up Thursday night
    Election nights just aren't what they used to be are they... :(
    As usual the Press Association has a timetable for expected results.

    https://election.pressassociation.com/locals/provisional-may-election-declaration-times-in-chronological-order/

    I presume that this is the final results for each council. Particular wards would be announced earlier.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,723

    Nigelb said:

    Why are we having a bank holiday if the coronation is on Saturday ?

    No one is going to be quite that hungover, surely ?

    No idea, but I'm not complaining...
    When one is retired, they are a pain in the neck.
  • Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 2,998
    Here's a small suggestion for those of you who want to celebrate the coronation: Get the Fisher company to make as pen (or pens) for you with an appropriate decoration. They have a wide variety: https://www.spacepen.com/ And here's a web contact for the UK: https://fisherspacepen.co.uk/

    So I think they could be persuaded to do that, without much difficulty. I can imagine, for example, HYUFD buying a bunch and passing them out to friends and supporters of the Conservative Party.

    (Full disclosure: I have two that I use regularly, a blue pen commemorating Apollo 11, and a black pen commemorating Apollo 13. They are good pens, and, as a space nut, I love having them. And I have given a number as gifts.)
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 21,971
    edited May 2023

    Just seen Sunak vs Starmer at PMQs and what an embarrassment Sunak is as Prime Minister. King of the NIMBYs banging on about giving "local control" to stop housing, when we have a housing crisis.

    If I hadn't already decided I won't vote Tory tomorrow, that would be a clincher.

    Cheshire and Amersham was a disappointment for seeing the Lib Dems win based on a disreputable NIMBY campaign, but the Tories have gone wholeheartedly to the dark side.

    I'm never voting for them again, until they become the party of aspiration again - which I can't ever see happening under Sunak.

    Lots of talk about housing over the last few days. I gave an example of a 100 home development near where I grew up, which offers small houses for large prices on a flood plain. The main bone of contention for the locals on that development and all the other similar ones before it are simple - space.

    One road in and out, with no ability to build a new road or widen it. No investment in new schools or shops or facilities. All of the new developments just become a burden, an ever growing traffic jam of people forced to travel to get to anything as there's nothing locally.

    It is stuff like that which drives locals up the wall. Building houses is something we all agree with, but it can't be what the developers want where they want it and screw everyone else.
    Pish, posh, there's always an excuse.

    Liberalise construction enough and people will buy houses where there are good ones with good services and good access to work etc, while leaving Buy to Let slumlords or bad developers holding properties they can't let or flog as there's no demand for them.

    Its precisely because there's so much restriction on housebuilding that the only way to get a new house is to go through the developers who have the patience and landbanks to go through our planning system to get authorisation for developments like you spoke about.

    All your excuse making is just ridiculous.
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,679

    Just seen Sunak vs Starmer at PMQs and what an embarrassment Sunak is as Prime Minister. King of the NIMBYs banging on about giving "local control" to stop housing, when we have a housing crisis.

    If I hadn't already decided I won't vote Tory tomorrow, that would be a clincher.

    Cheshire and Amersham was a disappointment for seeing the Lib Dems win based on a disreputable NIMBY campaign, but the Tories have gone wholeheartedly to the dark side.

    I'm never voting for them again, until they become the party of aspiration again - which I can't ever see happening under Sunak.

    It will happen, but it's going to be a long slog. The Conservatives are prisoners of their electorate, who are now overwhelmingly retired homeowners who see no reason for any more development, thank you. I don't see how the Conservatives move to a different coalition without a purgative spell in opposition.

    Give him his due, Starmer is at least making "getting it" noises, though the devil will be in the details.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/starmers-growth-plan-is-built-on-houses-79jq7mz6r
    Yep. More of that and I might actually vote Labour next time, despite having thought I'd never do so again after Brown trashed the economy with his deficit spending.

    If Starmer can come up with a plan that involves getting stuff done, like construction, to move the economy instead of just throwing taxpayers money at every problem (like Brown) or just shutting up shop and managing decline (like Sunak) then he will deserve a term in Downing Street.

    Not holding my breath though.
    Concreting over the Green Belt would be electoral poison for Labour. For example, in my old home town of Crawley (a must win for Labour at the next GE) a plan for a vast housing estate on the Ifield golf course was met with local fury and organized protests. If Sir Keir goes for 'Build, baby, build' then he's an idiot. On this issue HYUFD is right, right and right again!
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,821
    GIN1138 said:

    Friday - the focus will be on the local election results

    Saturday - it's all about the Coronation!

    Or to put it another way, the local election results will not be that exciting!

    SPOILER ALERT - Charles will be confirmed as King, and his hag as Queen :)
    Do I take it The Sunil isn't a fan of the former Mrs Parker-Bowles? :D
    Let's just say Diana would have made a much more OK looking Queen :)
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,908
    AlistairM said:

    FPT

    Video of a drone getting close to hitting the Kremlin. They only need to get lucky once.

    ⚡️⚡️The moment of the UAV attack on Putin's residence in the Kremlin
    https://twitter.com/front_ukrainian/status/1653734395260411904

    Ive seen more impressive fireworks. This was done using salt and a ball bearing.......

    https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=dambusters+commercial#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:ac801b25,vid:jYDBMjvqMlM
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,253
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Selebian said:

    Nigelb said:

    Also previously written about by Cyclefree.
    And reading the article, mildly ironic that no one bothered to post it yesterday.

    Hundreds of lives ruined. Not a single person held to account. And still: silence on the Post Office scandal
    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/may/02/post-office-horizon-scandal-inquiry

    I did in fact post it yesterday. Only second class though, so it might be a few days before it shows up :wink:

    Seriously though, as Cyclefree said, so many things went wrong here for so long that it's hard to know where to start. The willingness to accept a computer system as infallible and proof of guilt is itself shocking, but the apparent lack of accountability for what went wrong baffles me.
    It's such an awful incredible story. Ordinary decent people getting criminalized, their lives ruined and in some cases ended, by the Post Office. How can it possibly have happened? I struggle to get my head around it.
    Options

    1) Senior, Important People admit a mistake and take responsibility for their actions. Harm to Small People reduced.
    2) Senior Important People protect their "reputations". Some Small People die.

    2) is obviously better.
    Sure, but this one is truly shocking. It's beyond the normal run-of-the-mill malignity and incompetence that you expect to see in the higher echelons of organizations.
    Would you be shocked if a cover up happened in the police? Probably not, or you shouldn't be. So why be shocked when the Post Office acted badly when it was not only doing the policing but also the prosecuting and thought itself the original victim. Hardly surprising the public interest and that of the defendants were ignored given that set up.
    The persecution was vicious and went on way beyond the point at which it was obvious the victims were innocent. I really wouldn't expect this from an outfit like the Post Office. Also I'd expect 'the system' more generally to have offered more by way of resolving the matter. We're talking ordinary people running sub post offices here. No, I am shocked. Kafkaesque nightmares - the real thing rather than the turn of phrase - aren't the norm here as far I'm concerned. When I read about this I went "Oh jesus how can that be?" not "ah, the little people getting screwed over again, same old same old".
    I'm surprised you are surprised.

    The NHS has a long tradition of hounding whistleblowers. In fact, it turns out that the omerta for doctors speaking out against other doctors has an exception. Accusing whistleblowing doctors of being mentally ill.

    British Airways, before and after privatisation, conducted a spectacularly illegal campaign against Laker - justified by "We are the national airline, therefore we are allowed to do anything to protect ourselves from a competitor"

    Various charities have conducted vendettas against whistleblowers - see the scandals in third world aid.

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,921

    Just seen Sunak vs Starmer at PMQs and what an embarrassment Sunak is as Prime Minister. King of the NIMBYs banging on about giving "local control" to stop housing, when we have a housing crisis.

    If I hadn't already decided I won't vote Tory tomorrow, that would be a clincher.

    Cheshire and Amersham was a disappointment for seeing the Lib Dems win based on a disreputable NIMBY campaign, but the Tories have gone wholeheartedly to the dark side.

    I'm never voting for them again, until they become the party of aspiration again - which I can't ever see happening under Sunak.

    It will happen, but it's going to be a long slog. The Conservatives are prisoners of their electorate, who are now overwhelmingly retired homeowners who see no reason for any more development, thank you. I don't see how the Conservatives move to a different coalition without a purgative spell in opposition.

    Give him his due, Starmer is at least making "getting it" noises, though the devil will be in the details.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/starmers-growth-plan-is-built-on-houses-79jq7mz6r
    Yep. More of that and I might actually vote Labour next time, despite having thought I'd never do so again after Brown trashed the economy with his deficit spending.

    If Starmer can come up with a plan that involves getting stuff done, like construction, to move the economy instead of just throwing taxpayers money at every problem (like Brown) or just shutting up shop and managing decline (like Sunak) then he will deserve a term in Downing Street.

    Not holding my breath though.
    Concreting over the Green Belt would be electoral poison for Labour. For example, in my old home town of Crawley (a must win for Labour at the next GE) a plan for a vast housing estate on the Ifield golf course was met with local fury and organized protests. If Sir Keir goes for 'Build, baby, build' then he's an idiot. On this issue HYUFD is right, right and right again!
    Indeed, we need some new housing but it should be focused on brownbelt land first. Any government which tries to concrete over the greenbelt will be hugely unpopular
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,422

    Prime Minister Anthony Albanese has made a controversial anti-trans statement in an interview with British television personality Piers Morgan.

    In an interview with the former TV presenter, Albanese was asked a range of questions, spanning the status of Australia’s independence, to the contentious ‘What is a woman?’

    “An adult female,” the Prime Minister replied.


    https://www.starobserver.com.au/news/anthony-albanese-repeats-antitrans-statements-in-piers-morgan-interview/223565

    It's very telling how that's been reported because that isn't "controversial" to the vast majority of people.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    70% Home Ownership - sounds a good Tory target:

    It's not right that the dream of homeownership is slipping away from families and young people across the country.

    My Labour government will set a target of 70% homeownership.

    We will build more houses and build a better Britain.

    That can start tomorrow, with your vote.


    https://twitter.com/Keir_Starmer/status/1653740704114286599?s=20

    I’d have thought more social housing might figure in there…..
  • eekeek Posts: 28,370
    edited May 2023

    Just seen Sunak vs Starmer at PMQs and what an embarrassment Sunak is as Prime Minister. King of the NIMBYs banging on about giving "local control" to stop housing, when we have a housing crisis.

    If I hadn't already decided I won't vote Tory tomorrow, that would be a clincher.

    Cheshire and Amersham was a disappointment for seeing the Lib Dems win based on a disreputable NIMBY campaign, but the Tories have gone wholeheartedly to the dark side.

    I'm never voting for them again, until they become the party of aspiration again - which I can't ever see happening under Sunak.

    It will happen, but it's going to be a long slog. The Conservatives are prisoners of their electorate, who are now overwhelmingly retired homeowners who see no reason for any more development, thank you. I don't see how the Conservatives move to a different coalition without a purgative spell in opposition.

    Give him his due, Starmer is at least making "getting it" noises, though the devil will be in the details.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/starmers-growth-plan-is-built-on-houses-79jq7mz6r
    Yep. More of that and I might actually vote Labour next time, despite having thought I'd never do so again after Brown trashed the economy with his deficit spending.

    If Starmer can come up with a plan that involves getting stuff done, like construction, to move the economy instead of just throwing taxpayers money at every problem (like Brown) or just shutting up shop and managing decline (like Sunak) then he will deserve a term in Downing Street.

    Not holding my breath though.
    Concreting over the Green Belt would be electoral poison for Labour. For example, in my old home town of Crawley (a must win for Labour at the next GE) a plan for a vast housing estate on the Ifield golf course was met with local fury and organized protests. If Sir Keir goes for 'Build, baby, build' then he's an idiot. On this issue HYUFD is right, right and right again!
    Houses have to be built somewhere though as the population is currently increasing by 500,000+ due to immigration. Where are they going to live?

    Edit to add - and it doesn't matter if it's Green Belt or Brown Belt - NIMBYs complain about all building everywhere with the exception of anywhere which isn't where they live.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    WHY ARE YOU ALL TALKING ABOUT BOTTOMS
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,385

    70% Home Ownership - sounds a good Tory target:

    It's not right that the dream of homeownership is slipping away from families and young people across the country.

    My Labour government will set a target of 70% homeownership.

    We will build more houses and build a better Britain.

    That can start tomorrow, with your vote.


    https://twitter.com/Keir_Starmer/status/1653740704114286599?s=20

    I’d have thought more social housing might figure in there…..

    The moment they lose a by election, due to NIMBYs, as happened when the Lib Dems won Chesham and Amersham, they will fold like a pack of cards.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 21,971
    edited May 2023
    HYUFD said:

    Just seen Sunak vs Starmer at PMQs and what an embarrassment Sunak is as Prime Minister. King of the NIMBYs banging on about giving "local control" to stop housing, when we have a housing crisis.

    If I hadn't already decided I won't vote Tory tomorrow, that would be a clincher.

    Cheshire and Amersham was a disappointment for seeing the Lib Dems win based on a disreputable NIMBY campaign, but the Tories have gone wholeheartedly to the dark side.

    I'm never voting for them again, until they become the party of aspiration again - which I can't ever see happening under Sunak.

    It will happen, but it's going to be a long slog. The Conservatives are prisoners of their electorate, who are now overwhelmingly retired homeowners who see no reason for any more development, thank you. I don't see how the Conservatives move to a different coalition without a purgative spell in opposition.

    Give him his due, Starmer is at least making "getting it" noises, though the devil will be in the details.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/starmers-growth-plan-is-built-on-houses-79jq7mz6r
    Yep. More of that and I might actually vote Labour next time, despite having thought I'd never do so again after Brown trashed the economy with his deficit spending.

    If Starmer can come up with a plan that involves getting stuff done, like construction, to move the economy instead of just throwing taxpayers money at every problem (like Brown) or just shutting up shop and managing decline (like Sunak) then he will deserve a term in Downing Street.

    Not holding my breath though.
    Concreting over the Green Belt would be electoral poison for Labour. For example, in my old home town of Crawley (a must win for Labour at the next GE) a plan for a vast housing estate on the Ifield golf course was met with local fury and organized protests. If Sir Keir goes for 'Build, baby, build' then he's an idiot. On this issue HYUFD is right, right and right again!
    Indeed, we need some new housing but it should be focused on brownbelt land first. Any government which tries to concrete over the greenbelt will be hugely unpopular
    Ah yes, that fictional canard "the brownbelt" again.

    There's no such thing. The countries population has increased by 20% in a generation, there simply isn't unused land going idle to fit those houses into, the only realistic way you can increase by 20% your population is to increase by 20% the land being used. 🤦‍♂️

    Which would be an almost insignificant eating into greenfield land, but treating all green land as holy places never to be touched is the problem. Typically by people who themselves live in areas they'd consider green but their own house is an exception clearly as its already there.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,385

    Prime Minister Anthony Albanese has made a controversial anti-trans statement in an interview with British television personality Piers Morgan.

    In an interview with the former TV presenter, Albanese was asked a range of questions, spanning the status of Australia’s independence, to the contentious ‘What is a woman?’

    “An adult female,” the Prime Minister replied.


    https://www.starobserver.com.au/news/anthony-albanese-repeats-antitrans-statements-in-piers-morgan-interview/223565

    "Controversial" !!!
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,253
    Roger said:

    AlistairM said:

    FPT

    Video of a drone getting close to hitting the Kremlin. They only need to get lucky once.

    ⚡️⚡️The moment of the UAV attack on Putin's residence in the Kremlin
    https://twitter.com/front_ukrainian/status/1653734395260411904

    Ive seen more impressive fireworks. This was done using salt and a ball bearing.......

    https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=dambusters+commercial#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:ac801b25,vid:jYDBMjvqMlM
    The point of the attack was symbolic. Rather than say, dropping the drone in from the Kremlin, into the crowds there. Which would be the Russian style in this war.
  • 70% Home Ownership - sounds a good Tory target:

    It's not right that the dream of homeownership is slipping away from families and young people across the country.

    My Labour government will set a target of 70% homeownership.

    We will build more houses and build a better Britain.

    That can start tomorrow, with your vote.


    https://twitter.com/Keir_Starmer/status/1653740704114286599?s=20

    I’d have thought more social housing might figure in there…..

    Starmer gets it more than Sunak does.

    What a sad state of affairs for the once great Tory party.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,357
    Leon said:

    WHY ARE YOU ALL TALKING ABOUT BOTTOMS

    Because, alas, nobody else's is currently within reach.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,405

    Nigelb said:

    Why are we having a bank holiday if the coronation is on Saturday ?

    No one is going to be quite that hungover, surely ?

    No idea, but I'm not complaining...
    When one is retired, they are a pain in the neck.
    My wife is currently on maternity leave - she did not seem as interested as me in the three BH in May...
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    There’s been a drone attack on the Kremlin, the US banking system teeters on the abyss, a new civil war kicks off in Africa, Lincoln’s Christmas market may be somewhat downsized next year, and PB decides this is the right time for ENDLESS TALK ABOUT BOTTOMS
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,900

    Just seen Sunak vs Starmer at PMQs and what an embarrassment Sunak is as Prime Minister. King of the NIMBYs banging on about giving "local control" to stop housing, when we have a housing crisis.

    If I hadn't already decided I won't vote Tory tomorrow, that would be a clincher.

    Cheshire and Amersham was a disappointment for seeing the Lib Dems win based on a disreputable NIMBY campaign, but the Tories have gone wholeheartedly to the dark side.

    I'm never voting for them again, until they become the party of aspiration again - which I can't ever see happening under Sunak.

    Lots of talk about housing over the last few days. I gave an example of a 100 home development near where I grew up, which offers small houses for large prices on a flood plain. The main bone of contention for the locals on that development and all the other similar ones before it are simple - space.

    One road in and out, with no ability to build a new road or widen it. No investment in new schools or shops or facilities. All of the new developments just become a burden, an ever growing traffic jam of people forced to travel to get to anything as there's nothing locally.

    It is stuff like that which drives locals up the wall. Building houses is something we all agree with, but it can't be what the developers want where they want it and screw everyone else.
    Pish, posh, there's always an excuse.

    Liberalise construction enough and people will buy houses where there are good ones with good services and good access to work etc, while leaving Buy to Let slumlords or bad developers holding properties they can't let or flog as there's no demand for them.

    Its precisely because there's so much restriction on housebuilding that the only way to get a new house is to go through the developers who have the patience and landbanks to go through our planning system to get authorisation for developments like you spoke about.

    All your excuse making is just ridiculous.
    It is the NRA of housebuilding. The only way to stop developers building on floodplains with no facilities is to let developers build in other places.

    But that is already happening. A significant barrier to sanity is that developers are given planning permission for things they don't want to build, don't start, then use the lack of housebuilding as the weapon to force through permission to build what they want to build.

    Ideally we would have councils planning which areas to develop, and then sticking in roads and shops and services to make the homes viable. But they have no money so can't.

    You say there is always an excuse, and from your perspective I see that. But if you can't drive your kids to school without sitting in traffic that gets ever worse, and you're struggling to even get your kids into school, you're going to vote for the people saying they can make your lives better. And "add even more traffic and pressure" as you advocate only makes it worse.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,921

    HYUFD said:

    Just seen Sunak vs Starmer at PMQs and what an embarrassment Sunak is as Prime Minister. King of the NIMBYs banging on about giving "local control" to stop housing, when we have a housing crisis.

    If I hadn't already decided I won't vote Tory tomorrow, that would be a clincher.

    Cheshire and Amersham was a disappointment for seeing the Lib Dems win based on a disreputable NIMBY campaign, but the Tories have gone wholeheartedly to the dark side.

    I'm never voting for them again, until they become the party of aspiration again - which I can't ever see happening under Sunak.

    It will happen, but it's going to be a long slog. The Conservatives are prisoners of their electorate, who are now overwhelmingly retired homeowners who see no reason for any more development, thank you. I don't see how the Conservatives move to a different coalition without a purgative spell in opposition.

    Give him his due, Starmer is at least making "getting it" noises, though the devil will be in the details.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/starmers-growth-plan-is-built-on-houses-79jq7mz6r
    Yep. More of that and I might actually vote Labour next time, despite having thought I'd never do so again after Brown trashed the economy with his deficit spending.

    If Starmer can come up with a plan that involves getting stuff done, like construction, to move the economy instead of just throwing taxpayers money at every problem (like Brown) or just shutting up shop and managing decline (like Sunak) then he will deserve a term in Downing Street.

    Not holding my breath though.
    Concreting over the Green Belt would be electoral poison for Labour. For example, in my old home town of Crawley (a must win for Labour at the next GE) a plan for a vast housing estate on the Ifield golf course was met with local fury and organized protests. If Sir Keir goes for 'Build, baby, build' then he's an idiot. On this issue HYUFD is right, right and right again!
    Indeed, we need some new housing but it should be focused on brownbelt land first. Any government which tries to concrete over the greenbelt will be hugely unpopular
    Ah yes, that fictional canard "the brownbelt" again.

    There's no such thing. The countries population has increased by 20% in a generation, there simply isn't unused land going idle to fit those houses into, the only realistic way you can increase by 20% your population is to increase by 20% the land being used. 🤦‍♂️

    Which would be an almost insignificant eating into greenfield land, but treating all green land as holy places never to be touched is the problem. Typically by people who themselves live in areas they'd consider green but their own house is an exception clearly as its already there.
    Tighten immigration controls and that reduces pressure on the demand side too
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,986
    Cynical as it may seem, I think the only way to balance massive housebuilding against the electoral disaster that befalls anyone who gets on the wrong side of the NIMBYs is to focus building in areas that are already very safely either one party or the other. Coincidentally that happens to be many of the places where new building probably makes sense: in the cities and large towns and the more accessible non-green belt suburbs.

    Concentrate it too, so the electoral effect is limited in geographical scale.
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 4,664
    edited May 2023

    HYUFD said:

    Just seen Sunak vs Starmer at PMQs and what an embarrassment Sunak is as Prime Minister. King of the NIMBYs banging on about giving "local control" to stop housing, when we have a housing crisis.

    If I hadn't already decided I won't vote Tory tomorrow, that would be a clincher.

    Cheshire and Amersham was a disappointment for seeing the Lib Dems win based on a disreputable NIMBY campaign, but the Tories have gone wholeheartedly to the dark side.

    I'm never voting for them again, until they become the party of aspiration again - which I can't ever see happening under Sunak.

    It will happen, but it's going to be a long slog. The Conservatives are prisoners of their electorate, who are now overwhelmingly retired homeowners who see no reason for any more development, thank you. I don't see how the Conservatives move to a different coalition without a purgative spell in opposition.

    Give him his due, Starmer is at least making "getting it" noises, though the devil will be in the details.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/starmers-growth-plan-is-built-on-houses-79jq7mz6r
    Yep. More of that and I might actually vote Labour next time, despite having thought I'd never do so again after Brown trashed the economy with his deficit spending.

    If Starmer can come up with a plan that involves getting stuff done, like construction, to move the economy instead of just throwing taxpayers money at every problem (like Brown) or just shutting up shop and managing decline (like Sunak) then he will deserve a term in Downing Street.

    Not holding my breath though.
    Concreting over the Green Belt would be electoral poison for Labour. For example, in my old home town of Crawley (a must win for Labour at the next GE) a plan for a vast housing estate on the Ifield golf course was met with local fury and organized protests. If Sir Keir goes for 'Build, baby, build' then he's an idiot. On this issue HYUFD is right, right and right again!
    Indeed, we need some new housing but it should be focused on brownbelt land first. Any government which tries to concrete over the greenbelt will be hugely unpopular
    Ah yes, that fictional canard "the brownbelt" again.

    There's no such thing. The countries population has increased by 20% in a generation, there simply isn't unused land going idle to fit those houses into, the only realistic way you can increase by 20% your population is to increase by 20% the land being used. 🤦‍♂️

    Which would be an almost insignificant eating into greenfield land, but treating all green land as holy places never to be touched is the problem. Typically by people who themselves live in areas they'd consider green but their own house is an exception clearly as its already there.
    Farmland is often more "brown" than so called "brown field" sites.

    In these days of Biodiversity Net Gain, you need a lot more points/money to develop an old site that has scrubbed over than a field that is currently ploughed.

    Quite right too - there's a lot of interest on old industrial sites (particularly quarries and the like) and absolutely none in a wheat field.

    Of course, you might need food for all these people...
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,647

    theProle said:

    I think looking back, the Blair era expansion of university places has a lot to answer for, and is possibly a large part of the current malaise affecting the country today.

    Imagine if only 10% of the population went to university today, rather than almost 50%. This would mean around 2.25 million additional people in the workforce rather than education, and importantly this wouldn't cost any more in government services, pressure on housing etc. In addition if you shrunk the university sector by 80% that releases around another 180k people to do something more productive.

    Over the last 25 years, successive governments have turned to immigration to solve labour shortages - but each time is only a temporary fix, as the immigrants themselves need houses, doctors, supermarkets, pensions, and ultimately expect the standards of living as the rest of us.

    The only lasting fix involves increasing the productivity of the existing population until we can afford our desired standard of living. Turning three to five years in the prime of the lives of 40% of the population from being a massive cost all round to a net contribution seems to me to be an easy win.

    (all this is based on the dirty open secret in all this - namely that an average university education teaches very little that anyone actually needs to do a graduate job, but is merely a very expensive form of credentialism).

    Worth noting that, in 2020, nearly two-thirds of Irish second-level students went on to third-level education.

    Ireland has its problems as a country, but they seem to be different to Britain's, and its well-educated workforce is often cited by foreign companies investing in the country.

    Britain would be absolutely insane to cut the number of people receiving a third-level education, though I've spoken before about some of the weaknesses in third-level education in Britain compared to Ireland.
    Indeed our tertiary education rate is in the middle of the pack, with pretty much all of our peers having much the same. Even Mexico, Turkey and Indonesia are above 20%. The exceptions are Germany (though great apprenticeships) and Italy, noted for its economic stagnation. In Britain the places with economic growth are stuffed with graduates, those places without languish in the economic doldrums. The future requires an educated workforce.

    There is a big issue with the pisspoor quality and value for money of many British university courses.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Taz said:

    Prime Minister Anthony Albanese has made a controversial anti-trans statement in an interview with British television personality Piers Morgan.

    In an interview with the former TV presenter, Albanese was asked a range of questions, spanning the status of Australia’s independence, to the contentious ‘What is a woman?’

    “An adult female,” the Prime Minister replied.


    https://www.starobserver.com.au/news/anthony-albanese-repeats-antitrans-statements-in-piers-morgan-interview/223565

    "Controversial" !!!
    In several outlets:

    https://www.news.com.au/national/politics/what-a-stuttering-mess-albaneses-response-to-controversial-question-slammed-by-transactivists/news-story/1d65b9e8459f1a10be85add907301b28?amp


  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    Leon said:

    There’s been a drone attack on the Kremlin, the US banking system teeters on the abyss, a new civil war kicks off in Africa, Lincoln’s Christmas market may be somewhat downsized next year, and PB decides this is the right time for ENDLESS TALK ABOUT BOTTOMS

    This make you happier ?

    Nord Stream: Report puts Russian navy ships near pipeline blast site
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-65461401
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,647
    HYUFD said:

    Nigelb said:

    Why are we having a bank holiday if the coronation is on Saturday ?

    No one is going to be quite that hungover, surely ?

    For the national day of volunteering of course
    So we should work for free, rather than our usual paid work?

    Yeah, that's going to happen!
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,357
    AlistairM said:

    FPT

    Video of a drone getting close to hitting the Kremlin. They only need to get lucky once.

    ⚡️⚡️The moment of the UAV attack on Putin's residence in the Kremlin
    https://twitter.com/front_ukrainian/status/1653734395260411904

    There is a lot of scepticism over this - normally any video of a drone attack is poor quality CCTV while this video is suspiciously high-quality for just happening to point in the right direction at 2am.

    Also, Ukraine is currently experiencing a degree of success with drone attacks on oil storage facilities, military airfields, other sabotage of railways, etc, which this seems designed to distract from.

    Feels like a false flag to me. "A fearless Putin also defies drone attacks from the Kyiv Nazis, just as the brave Russian soldier in the trenches of Donetsk" style of thing.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,748
    Roger said:

    AlistairM said:

    FPT

    Video of a drone getting close to hitting the Kremlin. They only need to get lucky once.

    ⚡️⚡️The moment of the UAV attack on Putin's residence in the Kremlin
    https://twitter.com/front_ukrainian/status/1653734395260411904

    Ive seen more impressive fireworks. This was done using salt and a ball bearing.......

    https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=dambusters+commercial#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:ac801b25,vid:jYDBMjvqMlM
    But ah, my foes, and oh, my friends— It gives a lovely light!
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,253

    Here's a small suggestion for those of you who want to celebrate the coronation: Get the Fisher company to make as pen (or pens) for you with an appropriate decoration. They have a wide variety: https://www.spacepen.com/ And here's a web contact for the UK: https://fisherspacepen.co.uk/

    So I think they could be persuaded to do that, without much difficulty. I can imagine, for example, HYUFD buying a bunch and passing them out to friends and supporters of the Conservative Party.

    (Full disclosure: I have two that I use regularly, a blue pen commemorating Apollo 11, and a black pen commemorating Apollo 13. They are good pens, and, as a space nut, I love having them. And I have given a number as gifts.)

    And before someone gets to the old old story.....

    https://history.nasa.gov/spacepen.html#:~:text=Fisher developed his space pen,was hesitant in its approach.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,908

    Friday - the focus will be on the local election results

    Saturday - it's all about the Coronation!

    Or to put it another way, the local election results will not be that exciting!

    SPOILER ALERT - Charles will be confirmed as King, and his hag as Queen :)
    Is that you Sunil?

    PB's celebrated scribe of the slick slogan describing an elderly mother of two as a 'hag'?
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,055

    AlistairM said:

    FPT

    Video of a drone getting close to hitting the Kremlin. They only need to get lucky once.

    ⚡️⚡️The moment of the UAV attack on Putin's residence in the Kremlin
    https://twitter.com/front_ukrainian/status/1653734395260411904

    There is a lot of scepticism over this - normally any video of a drone attack is poor quality CCTV while this video is suspiciously high-quality for just happening to point in the right direction at 2am.

    Also, Ukraine is currently experiencing a degree of success with drone attacks on oil storage facilities, military airfields, other sabotage of railways, etc, which this seems designed to distract from.

    Feels like a false flag to me. "A fearless Putin also defies drone attacks from the Kyiv Nazis, just as the brave Russian soldier in the trenches of Donetsk" style of thing.
    Were I a Muscovite, I don’t think I’d be reassured by the ability of Ukraine to attack my home with drones, even if the Kremlin were able to shoot one down. I don’t see how this counts as a propaganda win for Russia.

  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,625
    edited May 2023

    AlistairM said:

    FPT

    Video of a drone getting close to hitting the Kremlin. They only need to get lucky once.

    ⚡️⚡️The moment of the UAV attack on Putin's residence in the Kremlin
    https://twitter.com/front_ukrainian/status/1653734395260411904

    There is a lot of scepticism over this - normally any video of a drone attack is poor quality CCTV while this video is suspiciously high-quality for just happening to point in the right direction at 2am.
    There are reasons to be sceptical but I don't think that's one of them. High-definition cameras are becoming more and more ubiquitous and the Kremlin is probably the most filmed place in Russia.
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 4,664
    edited May 2023

    AlistairM said:

    FPT

    Video of a drone getting close to hitting the Kremlin. They only need to get lucky once.

    ⚡️⚡️The moment of the UAV attack on Putin's residence in the Kremlin
    https://twitter.com/front_ukrainian/status/1653734395260411904

    There is a lot of scepticism over this - normally any video of a drone attack is poor quality CCTV while this video is suspiciously high-quality for just happening to point in the right direction at 2am.

    Also, Ukraine is currently experiencing a degree of success with drone attacks on oil storage facilities, military airfields, other sabotage of railways, etc, which this seems designed to distract from.

    Feels like a false flag to me. "A fearless Putin also defies drone attacks from the Kyiv Nazis, just as the brave Russian soldier in the trenches of Donetsk" style of thing.
    Yes.

    It appears to be a multicopter and therefore must have been launched within a few miles of the Kremlin.

    It doesn't appear to be carrying much in the way of actual explosive - perhaps a Molotov cocktail?


    Doesn't smell right.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,033
    edited May 2023
    Stephen Flynn of the SNP today at PMQs

    Clearly the battle for votes between SNP and labour in Scotland had started

    https://twitter.com/PoliticsJOE_UK/status/1653742993390592002?t=Rrh-1vInUTEHJr0Gt3t9Jg&s=19
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Just seen Sunak vs Starmer at PMQs and what an embarrassment Sunak is as Prime Minister. King of the NIMBYs banging on about giving "local control" to stop housing, when we have a housing crisis.

    If I hadn't already decided I won't vote Tory tomorrow, that would be a clincher.

    Cheshire and Amersham was a disappointment for seeing the Lib Dems win based on a disreputable NIMBY campaign, but the Tories have gone wholeheartedly to the dark side.

    I'm never voting for them again, until they become the party of aspiration again - which I can't ever see happening under Sunak.

    It will happen, but it's going to be a long slog. The Conservatives are prisoners of their electorate, who are now overwhelmingly retired homeowners who see no reason for any more development, thank you. I don't see how the Conservatives move to a different coalition without a purgative spell in opposition.

    Give him his due, Starmer is at least making "getting it" noises, though the devil will be in the details.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/starmers-growth-plan-is-built-on-houses-79jq7mz6r
    Yep. More of that and I might actually vote Labour next time, despite having thought I'd never do so again after Brown trashed the economy with his deficit spending.

    If Starmer can come up with a plan that involves getting stuff done, like construction, to move the economy instead of just throwing taxpayers money at every problem (like Brown) or just shutting up shop and managing decline (like Sunak) then he will deserve a term in Downing Street.

    Not holding my breath though.
    Concreting over the Green Belt would be electoral poison for Labour. For example, in my old home town of Crawley (a must win for Labour at the next GE) a plan for a vast housing estate on the Ifield golf course was met with local fury and organized protests. If Sir Keir goes for 'Build, baby, build' then he's an idiot. On this issue HYUFD is right, right and right again!
    Indeed, we need some new housing but it should be focused on brownbelt land first. Any government which tries to concrete over the greenbelt will be hugely unpopular
    Ah yes, that fictional canard "the brownbelt" again.

    There's no such thing. The countries population has increased by 20% in a generation, there simply isn't unused land going idle to fit those houses into, the only realistic way you can increase by 20% your population is to increase by 20% the land being used. 🤦‍♂️

    Which would be an almost insignificant eating into greenfield land, but treating all green land as holy places never to be touched is the problem. Typically by people who themselves live in areas they'd consider green but their own house is an exception clearly as its already there.
    Tighten immigration controls and that reduces pressure on the demand side too
    No, it doesn't.

    You could stop immigration overnight and all the housing problems that exist today would still exist tomorrow.

    Unless you want to enforce mass-deportations, then everyone who lives here still needs a home to live in, and children who grow up whether children of people who migrated or not, will need a home of their own too.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,553
    Trending on Twitter UK politics: "Justice for Andrew Bridgen"
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,625

    AlistairM said:

    FPT

    Video of a drone getting close to hitting the Kremlin. They only need to get lucky once.

    ⚡️⚡️The moment of the UAV attack on Putin's residence in the Kremlin
    https://twitter.com/front_ukrainian/status/1653734395260411904

    There is a lot of scepticism over this - normally any video of a drone attack is poor quality CCTV while this video is suspiciously high-quality for just happening to point in the right direction at 2am.

    Also, Ukraine is currently experiencing a degree of success with drone attacks on oil storage facilities, military airfields, other sabotage of railways, etc, which this seems designed to distract from.

    Feels like a false flag to me. "A fearless Putin also defies drone attacks from the Kyiv Nazis, just as the brave Russian soldier in the trenches of Donetsk" style of thing.
    Yes.

    It appears to be a multicopter and therefore must have been launched within a few miles of the Kremlin.

    It doesn't appear to be carrying much in the way of actual explosive - perhaps a Molotov cocktail?


    Doesn't smell right.
    It's revealing in a way that nobody's first thought was that it was done by Muscovite kids who don't like Putin.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,055
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Just seen Sunak vs Starmer at PMQs and what an embarrassment Sunak is as Prime Minister. King of the NIMBYs banging on about giving "local control" to stop housing, when we have a housing crisis.

    If I hadn't already decided I won't vote Tory tomorrow, that would be a clincher.

    Cheshire and Amersham was a disappointment for seeing the Lib Dems win based on a disreputable NIMBY campaign, but the Tories have gone wholeheartedly to the dark side.

    I'm never voting for them again, until they become the party of aspiration again - which I can't ever see happening under Sunak.

    It will happen, but it's going to be a long slog. The Conservatives are prisoners of their electorate, who are now overwhelmingly retired homeowners who see no reason for any more development, thank you. I don't see how the Conservatives move to a different coalition without a purgative spell in opposition.

    Give him his due, Starmer is at least making "getting it" noises, though the devil will be in the details.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/starmers-growth-plan-is-built-on-houses-79jq7mz6r
    Yep. More of that and I might actually vote Labour next time, despite having thought I'd never do so again after Brown trashed the economy with his deficit spending.

    If Starmer can come up with a plan that involves getting stuff done, like construction, to move the economy instead of just throwing taxpayers money at every problem (like Brown) or just shutting up shop and managing decline (like Sunak) then he will deserve a term in Downing Street.

    Not holding my breath though.
    Concreting over the Green Belt would be electoral poison for Labour. For example, in my old home town of Crawley (a must win for Labour at the next GE) a plan for a vast housing estate on the Ifield golf course was met with local fury and organized protests. If Sir Keir goes for 'Build, baby, build' then he's an idiot. On this issue HYUFD is right, right and right again!
    Indeed, we need some new housing but it should be focused on brownbelt land first. Any government which tries to concrete over the greenbelt will be hugely unpopular
    Ah yes, that fictional canard "the brownbelt" again.

    There's no such thing. The countries population has increased by 20% in a generation, there simply isn't unused land going idle to fit those houses into, the only realistic way you can increase by 20% your population is to increase by 20% the land being used. 🤦‍♂️

    Which would be an almost insignificant eating into greenfield land, but treating all green land as holy places never to be touched is the problem. Typically by people who themselves live in areas they'd consider green but their own house is an exception clearly as its already there.
    Tighten immigration controls and that reduces pressure on the demand side too
    Leaving aside the merits or not of this policy idea, you are aware, are you not, that this is NOT Conservative Party policy?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,647
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Just seen Sunak vs Starmer at PMQs and what an embarrassment Sunak is as Prime Minister. King of the NIMBYs banging on about giving "local control" to stop housing, when we have a housing crisis.

    If I hadn't already decided I won't vote Tory tomorrow, that would be a clincher.

    Cheshire and Amersham was a disappointment for seeing the Lib Dems win based on a disreputable NIMBY campaign, but the Tories have gone wholeheartedly to the dark side.

    I'm never voting for them again, until they become the party of aspiration again - which I can't ever see happening under Sunak.

    It will happen, but it's going to be a long slog. The Conservatives are prisoners of their electorate, who are now overwhelmingly retired homeowners who see no reason for any more development, thank you. I don't see how the Conservatives move to a different coalition without a purgative spell in opposition.

    Give him his due, Starmer is at least making "getting it" noises, though the devil will be in the details.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/starmers-growth-plan-is-built-on-houses-79jq7mz6r
    Yep. More of that and I might actually vote Labour next time, despite having thought I'd never do so again after Brown trashed the economy with his deficit spending.

    If Starmer can come up with a plan that involves getting stuff done, like construction, to move the economy instead of just throwing taxpayers money at every problem (like Brown) or just shutting up shop and managing decline (like Sunak) then he will deserve a term in Downing Street.

    Not holding my breath though.
    Concreting over the Green Belt would be electoral poison for Labour. For example, in my old home town of Crawley (a must win for Labour at the next GE) a plan for a vast housing estate on the Ifield golf course was met with local fury and organized protests. If Sir Keir goes for 'Build, baby, build' then he's an idiot. On this issue HYUFD is right, right and right again!
    Indeed, we need some new housing but it should be focused on brownbelt land first. Any government which tries to concrete over the greenbelt will be hugely unpopular
    Ah yes, that fictional canard "the brownbelt" again.

    There's no such thing. The countries population has increased by 20% in a generation, there simply isn't unused land going idle to fit those houses into, the only realistic way you can increase by 20% your population is to increase by 20% the land being used. 🤦‍♂️

    Which would be an almost insignificant eating into greenfield land, but treating all green land as holy places never to be touched is the problem. Typically by people who themselves live in areas they'd consider green but their own house is an exception clearly as its already there.
    Tighten immigration controls and that reduces pressure on the demand side too
    I see Stop the Boats! Isn't working. Over 100 per day is now the average. A new cargo hulk prison needed each week.

    https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/migrants-detected-crossing-the-english-channel-in-small-boats/migrants-detected-crossing-the-english-channel-in-small-boats-last-7-days

  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,625

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Just seen Sunak vs Starmer at PMQs and what an embarrassment Sunak is as Prime Minister. King of the NIMBYs banging on about giving "local control" to stop housing, when we have a housing crisis.

    If I hadn't already decided I won't vote Tory tomorrow, that would be a clincher.

    Cheshire and Amersham was a disappointment for seeing the Lib Dems win based on a disreputable NIMBY campaign, but the Tories have gone wholeheartedly to the dark side.

    I'm never voting for them again, until they become the party of aspiration again - which I can't ever see happening under Sunak.

    It will happen, but it's going to be a long slog. The Conservatives are prisoners of their electorate, who are now overwhelmingly retired homeowners who see no reason for any more development, thank you. I don't see how the Conservatives move to a different coalition without a purgative spell in opposition.

    Give him his due, Starmer is at least making "getting it" noises, though the devil will be in the details.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/starmers-growth-plan-is-built-on-houses-79jq7mz6r
    Yep. More of that and I might actually vote Labour next time, despite having thought I'd never do so again after Brown trashed the economy with his deficit spending.

    If Starmer can come up with a plan that involves getting stuff done, like construction, to move the economy instead of just throwing taxpayers money at every problem (like Brown) or just shutting up shop and managing decline (like Sunak) then he will deserve a term in Downing Street.

    Not holding my breath though.
    Concreting over the Green Belt would be electoral poison for Labour. For example, in my old home town of Crawley (a must win for Labour at the next GE) a plan for a vast housing estate on the Ifield golf course was met with local fury and organized protests. If Sir Keir goes for 'Build, baby, build' then he's an idiot. On this issue HYUFD is right, right and right again!
    Indeed, we need some new housing but it should be focused on brownbelt land first. Any government which tries to concrete over the greenbelt will be hugely unpopular
    Ah yes, that fictional canard "the brownbelt" again.

    There's no such thing. The countries population has increased by 20% in a generation, there simply isn't unused land going idle to fit those houses into, the only realistic way you can increase by 20% your population is to increase by 20% the land being used. 🤦‍♂️

    Which would be an almost insignificant eating into greenfield land, but treating all green land as holy places never to be touched is the problem. Typically by people who themselves live in areas they'd consider green but their own house is an exception clearly as its already there.
    Tighten immigration controls and that reduces pressure on the demand side too
    No, it doesn't.

    You could stop immigration overnight and all the housing problems that exist today would still exist tomorrow.

    Unless you want to enforce mass-deportations, then everyone who lives here still needs a home to live in, and children who grow up whether children of people who migrated or not, will need a home of their own too.
    This isn't actually true unless you also stop emigration and close the borders completely.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,908
    Leon said:

    There’s been a drone attack on the Kremlin, the US banking system teeters on the abyss, a new civil war kicks off in Africa, Lincoln’s Christmas market may be somewhat downsized next year, and PB decides this is the right time for ENDLESS TALK ABOUT BOTTOMS

    There must be a word for jealousy of the sheer panache of the French.

    I'm afraid we just have to live with it

    l'anus and all
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    Carlson’s Text That Alarmed Fox Leaders: ‘It’s Not How White Men Fight’
    The discovery of the text message contributed to a chain of events that ultimately led to Tucker Carlson’s firing.
    https://www.nytimes.com/2023/05/02/business/media/tucker-carlson-text-message-white-men.html
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,647

    AlistairM said:

    FPT

    Video of a drone getting close to hitting the Kremlin. They only need to get lucky once.

    ⚡️⚡️The moment of the UAV attack on Putin's residence in the Kremlin
    https://twitter.com/front_ukrainian/status/1653734395260411904

    There is a lot of scepticism over this - normally any video of a drone attack is poor quality CCTV while this video is suspiciously high-quality for just happening to point in the right direction at 2am.

    Also, Ukraine is currently experiencing a degree of success with drone attacks on oil storage facilities, military airfields, other sabotage of railways, etc, which this seems designed to distract from.

    Feels like a false flag to me. "A fearless Putin also defies drone attacks from the Kyiv Nazis, just as the brave Russian soldier in the trenches of Donetsk" style of thing.
    Were I a Muscovite, I don’t think I’d be reassured by the ability of Ukraine to attack my home with drones, even if the Kremlin were able to shoot one down. I don’t see how this counts as a propaganda win for Russia.

    A few days before the annual Victory Day parade too.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,134
    Nigelb said:

    Why are we having a bank holiday if the coronation is on Saturday ?

    No one is going to be quite that hungover, surely ?

    Casino and Hyufd will need a couple of days, I think.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,793
    The big question: what annoying yet compelling equivalent of Platty Joobs shall we use for Saturday's shenanigans?
    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/other/man-comes-up-with-the-platty-joobs-of-the-king-s-coronation-and-it-s-either-incredible-or-very-annoying/ar-AA1aFMeP?ocid=entnewsntp&cvid=b5e409a880a443208ed4fb07074c724d&ei=28

    Options include:
    - Corribobs
    - Corri-Naysh
    - Chazzle Dazzle
    - King's Cozzy
    - Chaz Con

    In selecting a favourite, how much it would annoy the man himself is a not inconsiderable element. So I am favouring Chaz Con.
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 4,664

    AlistairM said:

    FPT

    Video of a drone getting close to hitting the Kremlin. They only need to get lucky once.

    ⚡️⚡️The moment of the UAV attack on Putin's residence in the Kremlin
    https://twitter.com/front_ukrainian/status/1653734395260411904

    There is a lot of scepticism over this - normally any video of a drone attack is poor quality CCTV while this video is suspiciously high-quality for just happening to point in the right direction at 2am.

    Also, Ukraine is currently experiencing a degree of success with drone attacks on oil storage facilities, military airfields, other sabotage of railways, etc, which this seems designed to distract from.

    Feels like a false flag to me. "A fearless Putin also defies drone attacks from the Kyiv Nazis, just as the brave Russian soldier in the trenches of Donetsk" style of thing.
    Yes.

    It appears to be a multicopter and therefore must have been launched within a few miles of the Kremlin.

    It doesn't appear to be carrying much in the way of actual explosive - perhaps a Molotov cocktail?


    Doesn't smell right.
    It's revealing in a way that nobody's first thought was that it was done by Muscovite kids who don't like Putin.
    That seems a good explanation, although if true you'd expect the Kremlin to make as little noise about it as possible.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,253

    AlistairM said:

    FPT

    Video of a drone getting close to hitting the Kremlin. They only need to get lucky once.

    ⚡️⚡️The moment of the UAV attack on Putin's residence in the Kremlin
    https://twitter.com/front_ukrainian/status/1653734395260411904

    There is a lot of scepticism over this - normally any video of a drone attack is poor quality CCTV while this video is suspiciously high-quality for just happening to point in the right direction at 2am.

    Also, Ukraine is currently experiencing a degree of success with drone attacks on oil storage facilities, military airfields, other sabotage of railways, etc, which this seems designed to distract from.

    Feels like a false flag to me. "A fearless Putin also defies drone attacks from the Kyiv Nazis, just as the brave Russian soldier in the trenches of Donetsk" style of thing.
    Yes.

    It appears to be a multicopter and therefore must have been launched within a few miles of the Kremlin.

    It doesn't appear to be carrying much in the way of actual explosive - perhaps a Molotov cocktail?


    Doesn't smell right.
    Plenty of the sabotage stuff in Russia seems to be on that scale.

    If you think about it - a drone like that will fit in a bag, folded up. The only suspicious bit is the explosive device, which can be hung under it at the last moment.

    Somewhere, within a mile or 2 of the Kremlin, unfold the drone, clip the bomb on and launch. Could well be on a preprogrammed course, rather than manually controlled. So walk away immediately.

    You could even book a hotel room, set the drone up inside, open the window and leave. X hours later the drone launches. You could be in another country having an Old Fashioned in a decent bar.

    Why do you think drones have security forces world wide all panicked and upset?
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,625
    Cookie said:

    The big question: what annoying yet compelling equivalent of Platty Joobs shall we use for Saturday's shenanigans?
    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/other/man-comes-up-with-the-platty-joobs-of-the-king-s-coronation-and-it-s-either-incredible-or-very-annoying/ar-AA1aFMeP?ocid=entnewsntp&cvid=b5e409a880a443208ed4fb07074c724d&ei=28

    Options include:
    - Corribobs
    - Corri-Naysh
    - Chazzle Dazzle
    - King's Cozzy
    - Chaz Con

    In selecting a favourite, how much it would annoy the man himself is a not inconsiderable element. So I am favouring Chaz Con.

    Coronation Treat?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    edited May 2023
    Andy_JS said:

    Trending on Twitter UK politics: "Justice for Andrew Bridgen"

    Why, has he been charged with something ?
    (edit. I see GIN got there first.)
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,357

    AlistairM said:

    FPT

    Video of a drone getting close to hitting the Kremlin. They only need to get lucky once.

    ⚡️⚡️The moment of the UAV attack on Putin's residence in the Kremlin
    https://twitter.com/front_ukrainian/status/1653734395260411904

    There is a lot of scepticism over this - normally any video of a drone attack is poor quality CCTV while this video is suspiciously high-quality for just happening to point in the right direction at 2am.

    Also, Ukraine is currently experiencing a degree of success with drone attacks on oil storage facilities, military airfields, other sabotage of railways, etc, which this seems designed to distract from.

    Feels like a false flag to me. "A fearless Putin also defies drone attacks from the Kyiv Nazis, just as the brave Russian soldier in the trenches of Donetsk" style of thing.
    Were I a Muscovite, I don’t think I’d be reassured by the ability of Ukraine to attack my home with drones, even if the Kremlin were able to shoot one down. I don’t see how this counts as a propaganda win for Russia.
    Does Putin want Muscovites to be reassured, or does he need them to be angry and scared so that he can mobilise another few hundred thousand bodies to man the trenches in Ukraine?

    Also, if inhabitants of Sevastopol see that Moscow is also under drone attack, they might think there's little point in fleeing Crimea. As it is I'd think there were hundreds of better targets for a Ukrainian drone attack.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,357

    AlistairM said:

    FPT

    Video of a drone getting close to hitting the Kremlin. They only need to get lucky once.

    ⚡️⚡️The moment of the UAV attack on Putin's residence in the Kremlin
    https://twitter.com/front_ukrainian/status/1653734395260411904

    There is a lot of scepticism over this - normally any video of a drone attack is poor quality CCTV while this video is suspiciously high-quality for just happening to point in the right direction at 2am.

    Also, Ukraine is currently experiencing a degree of success with drone attacks on oil storage facilities, military airfields, other sabotage of railways, etc, which this seems designed to distract from.

    Feels like a false flag to me. "A fearless Putin also defies drone attacks from the Kyiv Nazis, just as the brave Russian soldier in the trenches of Donetsk" style of thing.
    Yes.

    It appears to be a multicopter and therefore must have been launched within a few miles of the Kremlin.

    It doesn't appear to be carrying much in the way of actual explosive - perhaps a Molotov cocktail?


    Doesn't smell right.
    It's revealing in a way that nobody's first thought was that it was done by Muscovite kids who don't like Putin.
    That seems a good explanation, although if true you'd expect the Kremlin to make as little noise about it as possible.
    I guess my assumption is that most of the motivated young Muscovites left the country some time ago.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,485
    Weather is looking pisspoor for my plans to do the garden and renovate the garden furniture this weekend. Hopefully nobody has any other plans??
  • FossFoss Posts: 1,019

    AlistairM said:

    FPT

    Video of a drone getting close to hitting the Kremlin. They only need to get lucky once.

    ⚡️⚡️The moment of the UAV attack on Putin's residence in the Kremlin
    https://twitter.com/front_ukrainian/status/1653734395260411904

    There is a lot of scepticism over this - normally any video of a drone attack is poor quality CCTV while this video is suspiciously high-quality for just happening to point in the right direction at 2am.

    Also, Ukraine is currently experiencing a degree of success with drone attacks on oil storage facilities, military airfields, other sabotage of railways, etc, which this seems designed to distract from.

    Feels like a false flag to me. "A fearless Putin also defies drone attacks from the Kyiv Nazis, just as the brave Russian soldier in the trenches of Donetsk" style of thing.
    Were I a Muscovite, I don’t think I’d be reassured by the ability of Ukraine to attack my home with drones, even if the Kremlin were able to shoot one down. I don’t see how this counts as a propaganda win for Russia.
    Does Putin want Muscovites to be reassured, or does he need them to be angry and scared so that he can mobilise another few hundred thousand bodies to man the trenches in Ukraine?

    Also, if inhabitants of Sevastopol see that Moscow is also under drone attack, they might think there's little point in fleeing Crimea. As it is I'd think there were hundreds of better targets for a Ukrainian drone attack.
    The Doolittle Raid had a psychological effect in both Japan and the US, even if they didn't actually destroy much on the ground.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070

    AlistairM said:

    FPT

    Video of a drone getting close to hitting the Kremlin. They only need to get lucky once.

    ⚡️⚡️The moment of the UAV attack on Putin's residence in the Kremlin
    https://twitter.com/front_ukrainian/status/1653734395260411904

    There is a lot of scepticism over this - normally any video of a drone attack is poor quality CCTV while this video is suspiciously high-quality for just happening to point in the right direction at 2am.

    Also, Ukraine is currently experiencing a degree of success with drone attacks on oil storage facilities, military airfields, other sabotage of railways, etc, which this seems designed to distract from.

    Feels like a false flag to me. "A fearless Putin also defies drone attacks from the Kyiv Nazis, just as the brave Russian soldier in the trenches of Donetsk" style of thing.
    Were I a Muscovite, I don’t think I’d be reassured by the ability of Ukraine to attack my home with drones, even if the Kremlin were able to shoot one down. I don’t see how this counts as a propaganda win for Russia.
    Does Putin want Muscovites to be reassured, or does he need them to be angry and scared so that he can mobilise another few hundred thousand bodies to man the trenches in Ukraine?

    Also, if inhabitants of Sevastopol see that Moscow is also under drone attack, they might think there's little point in fleeing Crimea. As it is I'd think there were hundreds of better targets for a Ukrainian drone attack.
    Or does he want a pretext for further escalation ?
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,357

    Weather is looking pisspoor for my plans to do the garden and renovate the garden furniture this weekend. Hopefully nobody has any other plans??

    Are you going to adjudicate on the best abbreviation for the King's Coronation?
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,055

    AlistairM said:

    FPT

    Video of a drone getting close to hitting the Kremlin. They only need to get lucky once.

    ⚡️⚡️The moment of the UAV attack on Putin's residence in the Kremlin
    https://twitter.com/front_ukrainian/status/1653734395260411904

    There is a lot of scepticism over this - normally any video of a drone attack is poor quality CCTV while this video is suspiciously high-quality for just happening to point in the right direction at 2am.

    Also, Ukraine is currently experiencing a degree of success with drone attacks on oil storage facilities, military airfields, other sabotage of railways, etc, which this seems designed to distract from.

    Feels like a false flag to me. "A fearless Putin also defies drone attacks from the Kyiv Nazis, just as the brave Russian soldier in the trenches of Donetsk" style of thing.
    Were I a Muscovite, I don’t think I’d be reassured by the ability of Ukraine to attack my home with drones, even if the Kremlin were able to shoot one down. I don’t see how this counts as a propaganda win for Russia.
    Does Putin want Muscovites to be reassured, or does he need them to be angry and scared so that he can mobilise another few hundred thousand bodies to man the trenches in Ukraine?

    Also, if inhabitants of Sevastopol see that Moscow is also under drone attack, they might think there's little point in fleeing Crimea. As it is I'd think there were hundreds of better targets for a Ukrainian drone attack.
    I would have thought that a better narrative for Putin is that brave Russian troops far away (and don’t worry, we’re just sending plebs to fight, your kids will be OK) are bravely fighting, but the war isn’t going to adversely affect you.

    Saying what was meant to be a special military operation has now deteriorated to the point the enemy are bombing Moscow sounds like an admission of failure.

    But I have no special insight into the minds of Muscovites.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,357
    Foss said:

    AlistairM said:

    FPT

    Video of a drone getting close to hitting the Kremlin. They only need to get lucky once.

    ⚡️⚡️The moment of the UAV attack on Putin's residence in the Kremlin
    https://twitter.com/front_ukrainian/status/1653734395260411904

    There is a lot of scepticism over this - normally any video of a drone attack is poor quality CCTV while this video is suspiciously high-quality for just happening to point in the right direction at 2am.

    Also, Ukraine is currently experiencing a degree of success with drone attacks on oil storage facilities, military airfields, other sabotage of railways, etc, which this seems designed to distract from.

    Feels like a false flag to me. "A fearless Putin also defies drone attacks from the Kyiv Nazis, just as the brave Russian soldier in the trenches of Donetsk" style of thing.
    Were I a Muscovite, I don’t think I’d be reassured by the ability of Ukraine to attack my home with drones, even if the Kremlin were able to shoot one down. I don’t see how this counts as a propaganda win for Russia.
    Does Putin want Muscovites to be reassured, or does he need them to be angry and scared so that he can mobilise another few hundred thousand bodies to man the trenches in Ukraine?

    Also, if inhabitants of Sevastopol see that Moscow is also under drone attack, they might think there's little point in fleeing Crimea. As it is I'd think there were hundreds of better targets for a Ukrainian drone attack.
    The Doolittle Raid had a psychological effect in both Japan and the US, even if they didn't actually destroy much on the ground.
    As did the sinking of the Moskva and the damage to the Kerch bridge, which managed to be propaganda victories and militarily significant combined.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,821
    Would a Ukrainian drone have the necessary range to reach Moscow?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,134

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Selebian said:

    Nigelb said:

    Also previously written about by Cyclefree.
    And reading the article, mildly ironic that no one bothered to post it yesterday.

    Hundreds of lives ruined. Not a single person held to account. And still: silence on the Post Office scandal
    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/may/02/post-office-horizon-scandal-inquiry

    I did in fact post it yesterday. Only second class though, so it might be a few days before it shows up :wink:

    Seriously though, as Cyclefree said, so many things went wrong here for so long that it's hard to know where to start. The willingness to accept a computer system as infallible and proof of guilt is itself shocking, but the apparent lack of accountability for what went wrong baffles me.
    It's such an awful incredible story. Ordinary decent people getting criminalized, their lives ruined and in some cases ended, by the Post Office. How can it possibly have happened? I struggle to get my head around it.
    Options

    1) Senior, Important People admit a mistake and take responsibility for their actions. Harm to Small People reduced.
    2) Senior Important People protect their "reputations". Some Small People die.

    2) is obviously better.
    Sure, but this one is truly shocking. It's beyond the normal run-of-the-mill malignity and incompetence that you expect to see in the higher echelons of organizations.
    Would you be shocked if a cover up happened in the police? Probably not, or you shouldn't be. So why be shocked when the Post Office acted badly when it was not only doing the policing but also the prosecuting and thought itself the original victim. Hardly surprising the public interest and that of the defendants were ignored given that set up.
    The persecution was vicious and went on way beyond the point at which it was obvious the victims were innocent. I really wouldn't expect this from an outfit like the Post Office. Also I'd expect 'the system' more generally to have offered more by way of resolving the matter. We're talking ordinary people running sub post offices here. No, I am shocked. Kafkaesque nightmares - the real thing rather than the turn of phrase - aren't the norm here as far I'm concerned. When I read about this I went "Oh jesus how can that be?" not "ah, the little people getting screwed over again, same old same old".
    I'm surprised you are surprised.

    The NHS has a long tradition of hounding whistleblowers. In fact, it turns out that the omerta for doctors speaking out against other doctors has an exception. Accusing whistleblowing doctors of being mentally ill.

    British Airways, before and after privatisation, conducted a spectacularly illegal campaign against Laker - justified by "We are the national airline, therefore we are allowed to do anything to protect ourselves from a competitor"

    Various charities have conducted vendettas against whistleblowers - see the scandals in third world aid.
    I know nothing surprises you, Malmesbury, when it comes to the handbags and the gladrags of life. Not much does me either tbh. But this one stands out a little bit to my eyes. It triggered more than a weary shake of the head when I read the details.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,357

    Weather is looking pisspoor for my plans to do the garden and renovate the garden furniture this weekend. Hopefully nobody has any other plans??

    May 6th is the cross-quarter day between the vernal equinox and the summer solstice, so we've chosen it as the first day for a dip in the sea. Given the state of the sea temperatures it will probably be easier to get into the water if we're already being rained on, but forecast is mainly dry here.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 21,971
    edited May 2023

    Just seen Sunak vs Starmer at PMQs and what an embarrassment Sunak is as Prime Minister. King of the NIMBYs banging on about giving "local control" to stop housing, when we have a housing crisis.

    If I hadn't already decided I won't vote Tory tomorrow, that would be a clincher.

    Cheshire and Amersham was a disappointment for seeing the Lib Dems win based on a disreputable NIMBY campaign, but the Tories have gone wholeheartedly to the dark side.

    I'm never voting for them again, until they become the party of aspiration again - which I can't ever see happening under Sunak.

    Lots of talk about housing over the last few days. I gave an example of a 100 home development near where I grew up, which offers small houses for large prices on a flood plain. The main bone of contention for the locals on that development and all the other similar ones before it are simple - space.

    One road in and out, with no ability to build a new road or widen it. No investment in new schools or shops or facilities. All of the new developments just become a burden, an ever growing traffic jam of people forced to travel to get to anything as there's nothing locally.

    It is stuff like that which drives locals up the wall. Building houses is something we all agree with, but it can't be what the developers want where they want it and screw everyone else.
    Pish, posh, there's always an excuse.

    Liberalise construction enough and people will buy houses where there are good ones with good services and good access to work etc, while leaving Buy to Let slumlords or bad developers holding properties they can't let or flog as there's no demand for them.

    Its precisely because there's so much restriction on housebuilding that the only way to get a new house is to go through the developers who have the patience and landbanks to go through our planning system to get authorisation for developments like you spoke about.

    All your excuse making is just ridiculous.
    It is the NRA of housebuilding. The only way to stop developers building on floodplains with no facilities is to let developers build in other places.

    But that is already happening. A significant barrier to sanity is that developers are given planning permission for things they don't want to build, don't start, then use the lack of housebuilding as the weapon to force through permission to build what they want to build.

    Ideally we would have councils planning which areas to develop, and then sticking in roads and shops and services to make the homes viable. But they have no money so can't.

    You say there is always an excuse, and from your perspective I see that. But if you can't drive your kids to school without sitting in traffic that gets ever worse, and you're struggling to even get your kids into school, you're going to vote for the people saying they can make your lives better. And "add even more traffic and pressure" as you advocate only makes it worse.
    You are the NRA here. The problem isn't too much construction/too much gun control - however much you want to reshape that to be the question. The problem is too many shootings/too many not having a home to call their own.

    The problem is that our development system is so broken only a handful of firms are able to do much of the development rather than smashing the oligopoly by deregulation and allowing small firms and anyone who is skilled at construction tackle the problem.

    "Lack of facilities" isn't a reason to oppose construction, you need construction to add new facilities. And if you're wanting houses built where there's an overabundance of pre-existing services, then that is totally bananas. You'd build absolute nothing near anything or anyone - since an overabundance of facilities doesn't exist anywhere.

    Build new homes, and if more roads or schools or hospitals or anything else is needed then build those too. Afterwards if need be.

    I have moved to what used to be a farming village and is now being developed into a new town, we have a new motorway junction and lots of new roads being developed. That motorway junction was planned decades ago, a number set aside for it decades ago but never actually built until after the construction of thousands of new homes and new demand. When it finally opens soon, then that will ease the pressure on pre-existing houses which has built up with the construction of our homes, but it would never have finally got the green light to be built had it not been for the masses of construction already happening.

    Our population has grown so much, more villages need to turn into new towns. Which will then necessitate major investment like new motorway junctions etc, but you can't put the cart before the horse, people need places to live and they need it now. If that means sitting in more traffic in the mean time, that's not a bigger problem than not having a roof that traffic takes you to and from.
  • OldBasingOldBasing Posts: 173
    Survation NEW: Local Elections Voting Intention:

    LAB 33 (+6)
    CON 23 (-8)
    LD 18 (+1)
    GRN 11 (+2)
    IND/OTH 14 (-2)

    F/w 24 - 28 April. Changes vs. 2019 Local Elections results

    Also Westminster VI (Survation)

    LAB: 45% (-1)
    CON: 28% (-1)
    LD: 12% (+4)
    GRN: 4% (+1)
    REF: 3% (-2)
    SNP: 3% (-1)
    Other: 6% (-)

    F/w 24 - 28 April. Changes vs. 29 March - 2 April.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,278

    Weather is looking pisspoor for my plans to do the garden and renovate the garden furniture this weekend. Hopefully nobody has any other plans??

    The weather will be crying a veil of tears as The Adulterers are crowned...
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,650
    Roger said:

    AlistairM said:

    FPT

    Video of a drone getting close to hitting the Kremlin. They only need to get lucky once.

    ⚡️⚡️The moment of the UAV attack on Putin's residence in the Kremlin
    https://twitter.com/front_ukrainian/status/1653734395260411904

    Ive seen more impressive fireworks. This was done using salt and a ball bearing.......

    https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=dambusters+commercial#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:ac801b25,vid:jYDBMjvqMlM
    Not an expert* but I would imagine your average bomb maker is less interested in pretty sparks and more in the liberal spread of nails etc. The explosions from NLAWs/Javelins look pretty tame, for example.

    *Pine cones, 6 cans of Lynx Africa, old fertiliser box = "just got a bit sunburnt, mum".
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Just seen Sunak vs Starmer at PMQs and what an embarrassment Sunak is as Prime Minister. King of the NIMBYs banging on about giving "local control" to stop housing, when we have a housing crisis.

    If I hadn't already decided I won't vote Tory tomorrow, that would be a clincher.

    Cheshire and Amersham was a disappointment for seeing the Lib Dems win based on a disreputable NIMBY campaign, but the Tories have gone wholeheartedly to the dark side.

    I'm never voting for them again, until they become the party of aspiration again - which I can't ever see happening under Sunak.

    It will happen, but it's going to be a long slog. The Conservatives are prisoners of their electorate, who are now overwhelmingly retired homeowners who see no reason for any more development, thank you. I don't see how the Conservatives move to a different coalition without a purgative spell in opposition.

    Give him his due, Starmer is at least making "getting it" noises, though the devil will be in the details.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/starmers-growth-plan-is-built-on-houses-79jq7mz6r
    Yep. More of that and I might actually vote Labour next time, despite having thought I'd never do so again after Brown trashed the economy with his deficit spending.

    If Starmer can come up with a plan that involves getting stuff done, like construction, to move the economy instead of just throwing taxpayers money at every problem (like Brown) or just shutting up shop and managing decline (like Sunak) then he will deserve a term in Downing Street.

    Not holding my breath though.
    Concreting over the Green Belt would be electoral poison for Labour. For example, in my old home town of Crawley (a must win for Labour at the next GE) a plan for a vast housing estate on the Ifield golf course was met with local fury and organized protests. If Sir Keir goes for 'Build, baby, build' then he's an idiot. On this issue HYUFD is right, right and right again!
    Indeed, we need some new housing but it should be focused on brownbelt land first. Any government which tries to concrete over the greenbelt will be hugely unpopular
    Ah yes, that fictional canard "the brownbelt" again.

    There's no such thing. The countries population has increased by 20% in a generation, there simply isn't unused land going idle to fit those houses into, the only realistic way you can increase by 20% your population is to increase by 20% the land being used. 🤦‍♂️

    Which would be an almost insignificant eating into greenfield land, but treating all green land as holy places never to be touched is the problem. Typically by people who themselves live in areas they'd consider green but their own house is an exception clearly as its already there.
    Tighten immigration controls and that reduces pressure on the demand side too
    No, it doesn't.

    You could stop immigration overnight and all the housing problems that exist today would still exist tomorrow.

    Unless you want to enforce mass-deportations, then everyone who lives here still needs a home to live in, and children who grow up whether children of people who migrated or not, will need a home of their own too.
    This isn't actually true unless you also stop emigration and close the borders completely.
    Emigration isn't of a scale to close the housing shortage.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,625

    Would a Ukrainian drone have the necessary range to reach Moscow?

    Depends where it takes off. :)
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,485

    Weather is looking pisspoor for my plans to do the garden and renovate the garden furniture this weekend. Hopefully nobody has any other plans??

    Are you going to adjudicate on the best abbreviation for the King's Coronation?
    K-Hole
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    edited May 2023

    Weather is looking pisspoor for my plans to do the garden and renovate the garden furniture this weekend. Hopefully nobody has any other plans??

    Are you going to adjudicate on the best abbreviation for the King's Coronation?
    HNHAOP works pretty well.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,278
    OldBasing said:

    Survation NEW: Local Elections Voting Intention:

    LAB 33 (+6)
    CON 23 (-8)
    LD 18 (+1)
    GRN 11 (+2)
    IND/OTH 14 (-2)

    F/w 24 - 28 April. Changes vs. 2019 Local Elections results

    Also Westminster VI (Survation)

    LAB: 45% (-1)
    CON: 28% (-1)
    LD: 12% (+4)
    GRN: 4% (+1)
    REF: 3% (-2)
    SNP: 3% (-1)
    Other: 6% (-)

    F/w 24 - 28 April. Changes vs. 29 March - 2 April.

    An absolute shellacking for CON on the way tomorrow if that prediction is right then...
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,625

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Just seen Sunak vs Starmer at PMQs and what an embarrassment Sunak is as Prime Minister. King of the NIMBYs banging on about giving "local control" to stop housing, when we have a housing crisis.

    If I hadn't already decided I won't vote Tory tomorrow, that would be a clincher.

    Cheshire and Amersham was a disappointment for seeing the Lib Dems win based on a disreputable NIMBY campaign, but the Tories have gone wholeheartedly to the dark side.

    I'm never voting for them again, until they become the party of aspiration again - which I can't ever see happening under Sunak.

    It will happen, but it's going to be a long slog. The Conservatives are prisoners of their electorate, who are now overwhelmingly retired homeowners who see no reason for any more development, thank you. I don't see how the Conservatives move to a different coalition without a purgative spell in opposition.

    Give him his due, Starmer is at least making "getting it" noises, though the devil will be in the details.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/starmers-growth-plan-is-built-on-houses-79jq7mz6r
    Yep. More of that and I might actually vote Labour next time, despite having thought I'd never do so again after Brown trashed the economy with his deficit spending.

    If Starmer can come up with a plan that involves getting stuff done, like construction, to move the economy instead of just throwing taxpayers money at every problem (like Brown) or just shutting up shop and managing decline (like Sunak) then he will deserve a term in Downing Street.

    Not holding my breath though.
    Concreting over the Green Belt would be electoral poison for Labour. For example, in my old home town of Crawley (a must win for Labour at the next GE) a plan for a vast housing estate on the Ifield golf course was met with local fury and organized protests. If Sir Keir goes for 'Build, baby, build' then he's an idiot. On this issue HYUFD is right, right and right again!
    Indeed, we need some new housing but it should be focused on brownbelt land first. Any government which tries to concrete over the greenbelt will be hugely unpopular
    Ah yes, that fictional canard "the brownbelt" again.

    There's no such thing. The countries population has increased by 20% in a generation, there simply isn't unused land going idle to fit those houses into, the only realistic way you can increase by 20% your population is to increase by 20% the land being used. 🤦‍♂️

    Which would be an almost insignificant eating into greenfield land, but treating all green land as holy places never to be touched is the problem. Typically by people who themselves live in areas they'd consider green but their own house is an exception clearly as its already there.
    Tighten immigration controls and that reduces pressure on the demand side too
    No, it doesn't.

    You could stop immigration overnight and all the housing problems that exist today would still exist tomorrow.

    Unless you want to enforce mass-deportations, then everyone who lives here still needs a home to live in, and children who grow up whether children of people who migrated or not, will need a home of their own too.
    This isn't actually true unless you also stop emigration and close the borders completely.
    Emigration isn't of a scale to close the housing shortage.
    Over half a million a year would make a considerable dent in it.
This discussion has been closed.