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  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,331

    There's a great spot on the M11 when you can suddenly see London's cluster of skyscrapers on the horizon, always a welcome sight on a long drive home from the North.
    Crossing the M25 from the outside always lifts my spirits.
  • .

    I'd define an actual Christian quite simply – someone who believes in the Christian God. Is there much more to it?
    I'd say it's the same for any religion. Either you believe in your preferred deity or you don't. I dunno why they have to make it so complicated!
  • LeonLeon Posts: 58,914
    SandraMc said:

    Guildford isn't bad inside. But from the outside it reminds me of Willy Wonka's chocolate factory.
    I see I’m not alone in despising Guildford

    https://christiantoday.com/article/could.this.be.the.end.for.britains.ugliest.cathedral/104787.htm


    It reminds me of a huge, industrial-sized crematorium
  • TresTres Posts: 2,755
    Lineker 2 Sharp 0
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,331
    Nigelb said:

    A key appointment for base motives.
    Inevitable finale given the chorus of disapproval.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,292

    I'd define an actual Christian quite simply – someone who believes in the Christian God. Is there much more to it?
    Laurence Llewyen Bowen is an atheist but still goes to his medieval village church every Sunday as he likes the aesthetics of the building and it is where the local community meet for a catch up. He is friendly with the Vicar who knows he doesn't believe in God.

    So he could be a cultural Christian even if a non believer
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 13,669

    I'd define an actual Christian quite simply – someone who believes in the Christian God. Is there much more to it?
    There is a slightly tricky aspect to using the word you are trying to define in the definition. It is conventional not to do it.

    But the much more interesting question for all groups, Christian, No religion, Islam, everyone else, is "What do you actually think which results in your self identification". On this we have rather a lot of silence.

    A recent big book on Humanism (Sarah Bakewell) includes all manner of believers in God in their ranks, including the great Erasmus, a giant of Christian history. Whereas to most people Humanists are people like Dawkins who are specifically atheist or agnostic. These issues are hard.

  • kjhkjh Posts: 12,317
    I'm visiting my old University today. I'm about to have a beer in the Union. The last time was almost exactly 50 years ago.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 38,252
    London is unusual in that it now has by some measure, the highest rate of church attendance of any city in the country.
  • TresTres Posts: 2,755
    edited April 2023

    Pathetic. What is Sunak afraid of?
    scrutiny
  • There's a great spot on the M11 when you can suddenly see London's cluster of skyscrapers on the horizon, always a welcome sight on a long drive home from the North.
    I had the misfortune to have to travel that way to that there London earlier this week as the M1 is closed at J18. It did look impressive. Driving around London, less impressive.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 75,244

    Inevitable finale given the chorus of disapproval.
    What, though, will be the coda ?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 58,914
    Cookie said:

    Ah now we've been here before, about this time last year. I remember the opprobrium heaped on Truro - and then a month later I drove past Truro Cathedral on a sunny day and was awestruck. Not a typical British cathedral, but rather striking nonetheless. Certainly in the top 1% of attractive buildings in the country, even if not in the top 1% of cathedrals.

    Manchester: just a large parish church, basically. Not ugly by any means. Quite charming in its way. But not amazing. Ditto Blackburn.

    Manchester had plans for a bloody huge cathedral in Piccadilly Gardens. A pity it never happened: not because Manchester needs a huge cathedral, but because what got put there instead was so ugly. These were the plans:


    https://confidentials.com/manchester/imagined-manchester-piccadilly-gardens-in-dreams

    (My favourite cathedral is York Minster).
    Truro is fine. It’s just a tiny bit generic neo-gothic. I was being mean. And of course, as a modern cathedral it lacks that numinous quality. I agree that it’s a rather handsome building taken on its own merits

    Apparently Derby, Bradford and Sheffield are rubbish, but I just checked them out and they look ok. Merely a bit meh. Adapted parish churches

    Nothing in the Anglican list matches the horror of Guildford. Tho there are some truly hideous Catholic jobs
  • CookieCookie Posts: 14,639
    Leon said:

    I see I’m not alone in despising Guildford

    https://christiantoday.com/article/could.this.be.the.end.for.britains.ugliest.cathedral/104787.htm


    It reminds me of a huge, industrial-sized crematorium
    I've just Google-image-searched Guildford Cathedral. Yes: I think that's the only Anglican cathedral I've come across which is actively unattractive.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 58,914
    Sean_F said:

    I visited Wells Cathedral for the first time, a fortnight ago. It's stunning.

    Out of Durham, Lincoln, Wells, Exeter, Ely, Winchester, Southwell, York, St. Paul's, St. Alban's, St. David's, I'd be hard pressed to choose.

    Ely has a special place in my heart, because when I worked for Wood Green Animal Shelters, there was an annual service to which people took their dogs, who'd all start howling and barking along to the hymns.
    Durham has the greatest interior. Spellbinding. I’d say it has the greatest interior of any cathedral in the world. It’s overwhelming
  • HYUFD said:

    Laurence Llewyen Bowen is an atheist but still goes to his medieval village church every Sunday as he likes the aesthetics of the building and it is where the local community meet for a catch up. He is friendly with the Vicar who knows he doesn't believe in God.

    So he could be a cultural Christian even if a non believer
    Nah, you can't bump up your figures that way. Either you're a believer or not. I like all the Norman churches around these parts, lovely to look at, but I don't believe in the fella they're built to worship.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 14,639
    edited April 2023
    Leon said:

    Truro is fine. It’s just a tiny bit generic neo-gothic. I was being mean. And of course, as a modern cathedral it lacks that numinous quality. I agree that it’s a rather handsome building taken on its own merits

    Apparently Derby, Bradford and Sheffield are rubbish, but I just checked them out and they look ok. Merely a bit meh. Adapted parish churches

    Nothing in the Anglican list matches the horror of Guildford. Tho there are some truly hideous Catholic jobs
    I don't know Bradford, but Derby is nice enough, and I actively like Sheffield. My last bit of active religion was done in Sheffield Cathedral around 15 years ago, where I did a spot of Godfathering.

    And yes, what was going through my mind earlier was that Guildford looked like a Catholic cathedral.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,924
    Dialup said:

    The 2017 manifesto. How is what he is offering now very different to that please?
    Its only different in every respect.

    No wealth taxes, No Nationalisation, No abolition of University fees.

    Literally nothing has survived labour promised an end to austerity they are now promising austerity.

    The 2017 Manifesto offered hope of something better and different, SKS now says we cant afford to do anything and offers the square root of FA

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2017/07/11/why-people-voted-labour-or-conservative-2017-gener
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,792
    HYUFD said:

    Laurence Llewyen Bowen is an atheist but still goes to his medieval village church every Sunday as he likes the aesthetics of the building and it is where the local community meet for a catch up. He is friendly with the Vicar who knows he doesn't believe in God.

    So he could be a cultural Christian even if a non believer
    Fine, but he's not a Christian though is he?

    Professor Richard Dawkins says he himself is a 'cultural Christian' because he is of that tradition and likes to sing hymns.

    But he's not a Christian either.

    To be a Christian you must believe in the Christian God, otherwise you are not a Christian. Simple as that.

    Otherwise, it's rather like calling someone a supporter of Nottingham Forest because they live in Nottingham, even though they actually support Notts County.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,292

    Nah, you can't bump up your figures that way. Either you're a believer or not. I like all the Norman churches around these parts, lovely to look at, but I don't believe in the fella they're built to worship.
    The Church of England can. An atheist who attends church every Sunday and contributes to the collection is more useful to the Church of England than a Christian who never goes to church.

    Though technically yes to be a Christian you do need to believe in God and the Trinity

  • LeonLeon Posts: 58,914
    Cookie said:

    I've just Google-image-searched Guildford Cathedral. Yes: I think that's the only Anglican cathedral I've come across which is actively unattractive.
    Amazingly, it’s even worse in real life. They should knock it down (apparently this is actually being mooted)
  • El_CapitanoEl_Capitano Posts: 4,241

    But in your seat it's a straight Lab-Tory fight, so actually you are enhancing your chances of getting a Tory MP – hardly a 'tactical' vote, rather the opposite in fact. Duh!
    Let me try and explain it in words of no more than three syllables.

    I'm concerned with who forms the government, not who my MP is.

    Right now it looks like there are two plausible outcomes: a Lab majority, or a Lab+others coalition.

    A Lab majority, according to Starmer, means continued hard Brexit, no chance of PR, and so on.

    Therefore I will be casting my vote (a) to maximise the chance of a coalition (shit, four syllables, sorry) and (b) so that I don't feel dirty after putting my cross in the box.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,292
    Cookie said:

    I've just Google-image-searched Guildford Cathedral. Yes: I think that's the only Anglican cathedral I've come across which is actively unattractive.
    Trinity Church, built in 1760 which was the temporary cathedral when the new building was built, is more beautiful than the actual cathedral itself

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Trinity_Church,_Guildford
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,792
    edited April 2023
    algarkirk said:

    There is a slightly tricky aspect to using the word you are trying to define in the definition. It is conventional not to do it.

    But the much more interesting question for all groups, Christian, No religion, Islam, everyone else, is "What do you actually think which results in your self identification". On this we have rather a lot of silence.

    A recent big book on Humanism (Sarah Bakewell) includes all manner of believers in God in their ranks, including the great Erasmus, a giant of Christian history. Whereas to most people Humanists are people like Dawkins who are specifically atheist or agnostic. These issues are hard.

    You are making them needlessly difficult.

    See simple flowchart below.

    Do you believe in the Christian God?

    1) Yes
    2) No

    If 1 go to A.

    If 2 go to B.

    A.) You are a Christian
    B.) You are not a Christian
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 72,856
    Nigelb said:

    What, though, will be the coda ?
    We won't find out given the endless repeats.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 34,274

    Fine, but he's not a Christian though is he?

    Professor Richard Dawkins says he himself is a 'cultural Christian' because he is of that tradition and likes to sing hymns.

    But he's not a Christian either.

    To be a Christian you must believe in the Christian God, otherwise you are not a Christian. Simple as that.

    Otherwise, it's rather like calling someone a supporter of Nottingham Forest because they live in Nottingham, even though they actually support Notts County.
    I like the hymns on Sunday religious programmes. They remind us …….Mrs C and I …… of our long-ago youth.
    Not so keen about some of the very modern ones though!
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,792

    Nah, you can't bump up your figures that way. Either you're a believer or not. I like all the Norman churches around these parts, lovely to look at, but I don't believe in the fella they're built to worship.
    Absolutely. I love a good church.

    Doesn't make me a Christian either.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,292

    You are making them needlessly difficult.

    See simple flowchart below.

    Do you believe in the Christian God?

    1) Yes
    2) No

    If 1 go to A.

    If 2 go to B.

    A.) You are a Christian
    B.) You are not a Christian
    The Christian God is the same God of Abraham as the Muslim and Jewish God.

    Only belief in the Trinity of God the Father, God the Son and the Holy Spirit makes you a Christian
  • Unite reject pay offer by 52/48
  • CookieCookie Posts: 14,639
    Leon said:

    Amazingly, it’s even worse in real life. They should knock it down (apparently this is actually being mooted)
    Ooh, Coventry Cathedral of course - I forgot about that. A special case because there's still the shell of something beautiful: left there, no doubt, to show you what we had once and turned out back on. (It's quite a shock when you go to the continent and see all the buildings that were destroyed in the war then painstakingly recreated rather than discarded for the brave new world of the 50s and 60s.)
  • boulayboulay Posts: 6,001
    Leon said:

    Truro is fine. It’s just a tiny bit generic neo-gothic. I was being mean. And of course, as a modern cathedral it lacks that numinous quality. I agree that it’s a rather handsome building taken on its own merits

    Apparently Derby, Bradford and Sheffield are rubbish, but I just checked them out and they look ok. Merely a bit meh. Adapted parish churches

    Nothing in the Anglican list matches the horror of Guildford. Tho there are some truly hideous Catholic jobs
    To be fair the “hideous Catholic jobs” wouldn’t need to exist if the beautiful Catholic built and designed ones hadn’t been stolen from them.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 72,856
    HYUFD said:

    The Christian God is the same God of Abraham as the Muslim and Jewish God.

    Only belief in the Trinity of God the Father, God the Son and the Holy Spirit makes you a Christian
    Where do Unitarians fit in to that?
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,792

    Let me try and explain it in words of no more than three syllables.

    I'm concerned with who forms the government, not who my MP is.

    Right now it looks like there are two plausible outcomes: a Lab majority, or a Lab+others coalition.

    A Lab majority, according to Starmer, means continued hard Brexit, no chance of PR, and so on.

    Therefore I will be casting my vote (a) to maximise the chance of a coalition (shit, four syllables, sorry) and (b) so that I don't feel dirty after putting my cross in the box.
    You are casting your vote to increase Tory representation in the House of Commons, and thus increase their chances of retaining power.

    Yes, I get it. I understand how FPP works.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,292

    Fine, but he's not a Christian though is he?

    Professor Richard Dawkins says he himself is a 'cultural Christian' because he is of that tradition and likes to sing hymns.

    But he's not a Christian either.

    To be a Christian you must believe in the Christian God, otherwise you are not a Christian. Simple as that.

    Otherwise, it's rather like calling someone a supporter of Nottingham Forest because they live in Nottingham, even though they actually support Notts County.
    Not really, a better comparison would be someone who goes to all Nottingham Forest home matches but just doesn't support the team
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 5,398
    Leon said:

    I see I’m not alone in despising Guildford

    https://christiantoday.com/article/could.this.be.the.end.for.britains.ugliest.cathedral/104787.htm


    It reminds me of a huge, industrial-sized crematorium
    It is a very similar design and age to St Elisabeths church in Eastbourne, which was finally demolished a couple of years ago after 20 years spent trying to find a solution to the site.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,292
    ydoethur said:

    Where do Unitarians fit in to that?
    Not really Christian as they don't believe in the Trinity
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,792
    HYUFD said:

    The Christian God is the same God of Abraham as the Muslim and Jewish God.

    Only belief in the Trinity of God the Father, God the Son and the Holy Spirit makes you a Christian
    Fair enough – an important clarification. I would agree.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,838
    HYUFD said:

    Not really Christian as they don't believe in the Trinity
    Perhaps a Unitarian would say that you're not really a Christian because you do?
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 5,398
    Sean_F said:

    Conservative support in Brighton & Hove in 2019 was actually lower than in 1997. It's England's equivalent of San Francisco, politically.
    Brighton is more diverse than it is often perceived, there are still large suburbs full of older people.
    There is still a respectable number of conservative councillors.

    https://democracy.brighton-hove.gov.uk/mgMemberIndex.aspx?bcr=1
  • CookieCookie Posts: 14,639
    boulay said:

    To be fair the “hideous Catholic jobs” wouldn’t need to exist if the beautiful Catholic built and designed ones hadn’t been stolen from them.
    I'm sure if they knew the horrible 20th century architecture their bishops would have to put up with 500 years later they would have been more clement in granting Henry VIII a divorce.

  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 44,882
    What is 'beauty' in a church or cathedral?

    In fact, what is 'beauty' in any building or structure?

    Is it proportion, fitting into location, form, materials?

    As an example, I am not a fan of concrete as a 'beautiful' material. But I'd strongly argue that the Kylesku Bridge in the northwest of Scotland isn't a stunning addition to the landscape. Or, to a slightly lesser extent, the Glenfinnan Viaduct.

    The Skye Bridge, on the other hand, whilst useful, is just fugly.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 72,856
    HYUFD said:

    Not really Christian as they don't believe in the Trinity
    I think the 'No true Scotsman' fallacy applies.
  • Chris said:

    Perhaps a Unitarian would say that you're not really a Christian because you do?
    I would gently suggest the matter is between the individual and their God, and not for anyone to decide someone's else's beliefs
  • kamskikamski Posts: 6,163
    Chris said:

    Perhaps a Unitarian would say that you're not really a Christian because you do?
    Plenty of Christians don't believe in any god, just as with other religions. It's weirdly fanatic, or just ignorant, to claim otherwise.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 75,244

    You are casting your vote to increase Tory representation in the House of Commons, and thus increase their chances of retaining power.

    Yes, I get it. I understand how FPP works.
    So do we, and we object to it.
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,331

    What is 'beauty' in a church or cathedral?

    In fact, what is 'beauty' in any building or structure?

    Is it proportion, fitting into location, form, materials?

    As an example, I am not a fan of concrete as a 'beautiful' material. But I'd strongly argue that the Kylesku Bridge in the northwest of Scotland isn't a stunning addition to the landscape. Or, to a slightly lesser extent, the Glenfinnan Viaduct.

    The Skye Bridge, on the other hand, whilst useful, is just fugly.

    I think the Humber Bridge is stunningly beautiful, especially in early morning mist. Notorious white elephant though, commissioned to help Labour win a by-election.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,924

    Unite reject pay offer by 52/48

    Which pay offer?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 58,914
    A cool list of the world’s ugliest cathedrals

    https://www.thrillist.com/travel/nation/ugliest-cathedrals-in-the-world


    Generally quite a lot of hate for Guildford, and Liverpool Catholic cathedral (which is unfair, i reckon it’s OK)

    And this is a very good contender for THE ugliest cathedral on earth. Rio




  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,292
    edited April 2023
    ydoethur said:

    I think the 'No true Scotsman' fallacy applies.
    Unitarians are closer to Muslims than Christians. They believe in God and see Jesus as Prophet and Messiah but unlike Christians don't believe Jesus is also God and in the Trinity
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 9,137
    malcolmg said:

    It is ablaze as we speak.
    Great. Should be well out by the coronation then :smiley:
  • Which pay offer?
    The same offer Unison accepted
  • Andy_CookeAndy_Cooke Posts: 5,045

    You are casting your vote to increase Tory representation in the House of Commons, and thus increase their chances of retaining power.

    Yes, I get it. I understand how FPP works.
    Maybe Labour should improve their offer rather than trying to rely solely on "We're your only alternative."
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,968

    The same offer Unison accepted
    which ones are the mugs?
  • El_CapitanoEl_Capitano Posts: 4,241

    You are casting your vote to increase Tory representation in the House of Commons, and thus increase their chances of retaining power.

    Yes, I get it. I understand how FPP works.
    Labour: "If you don't vote for us, you're a Tory."

    Right, ok, that's a sucky system. We should change it.

    Labour: "We will not countenance changing the system."

    Sigh.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,968
    Leon said:

    A cool list of the world’s ugliest cathedrals

    https://www.thrillist.com/travel/nation/ugliest-cathedrals-in-the-world


    Generally quite a lot of hate for Guildford, and Liverpool Catholic cathedral (which is unfair, i reckon it’s OK)

    And this is a very good contender for THE ugliest cathedral on earth. Rio




    I quite like that actually.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 58,914
    Cookie said:

    Ooh, Coventry Cathedral of course - I forgot about that. A special case because there's still the shell of something beautiful: left there, no doubt, to show you what we had once and turned out back on. (It's quite a shock when you go to the continent and see all the buildings that were destroyed in the war then painstakingly recreated rather than discarded for the brave new world of the 50s and 60s.)
    At least Coventry is interesting, and bold. Guildford is neither
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,292
    boulay said:

    To be fair the “hideous Catholic jobs” wouldn’t need to exist if the beautiful Catholic built and designed ones hadn’t been stolen from them.
    Brentwood Roman Catholic cathedral is quite pleasing on the eye, in a neoclassical style

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brentwood_Cathedral
  • GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,860
    Leon said:

    Truro is fine. It’s just a tiny bit generic neo-gothic. I was being mean. And of course, as a modern cathedral it lacks that numinous quality. I agree that it’s a rather handsome building taken on its own merits

    Apparently Derby, Bradford and Sheffield are rubbish, but I just checked them out and they look ok. Merely a bit meh. Adapted parish churches

    Nothing in the Anglican list matches the horror of Guildford. Tho there are some truly hideous Catholic jobs
    I don't mind Paddy's Wigwam, actually. It is what it is. I'm fond of Westminster Cathedral too.

    Bit harsh to knock Manchester (and Bradford too) for their cathedrals; Manchester's is actually subtly quite lovely, though St Ann's church is nicer still. And let's not forget that York Minster took longer to build than the time Manchester has actually been a city of any note.

    Ely is uniquely spectacular because of it's location in the fens; like stumbling on a cruise liner in a millpond. But my fave is probably Lincoln.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,838
    ydoethur said:

    I think the 'No true Scotsman' fallacy applies.
    It would be interesting to know whether HYUFD thinks there were any Christians before the doctrine of the Trinity was developed in the late second century!

    Maybe the idea is that Jesus was just too modest to mention it.
  • kamskikamski Posts: 6,163
    Taz said:
    Yep. The EU would be doing a bit better if the UK was still in it. Just like the UK would be doing better if it was still in the EU.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,924

    Labour: "If you don't vote for us, you're a Tory."

    Right, ok, that's a sucky system. We should change it.

    Labour: "We will not countenance changing the system."

    Sigh.
    Anabobazina can see a Lab Majority slipping away as the Polls narrow and rather than blame the person responsible seeks to blame everyone else

    Boring!!
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 13,074

    Fine, but he's not a Christian though is he?

    Professor Richard Dawkins says he himself is a 'cultural Christian' because he is of that tradition and likes to sing hymns.

    But he's not a Christian either.

    To be a Christian you must believe in the Christian God, otherwise you are not a Christian. Simple as that.

    Otherwise, it's rather like calling someone a supporter of Nottingham Forest because they live in Nottingham, even though they actually support Notts County.
    What if you believe in the Christian God AND you also believe in the Muslim God, and you happen to think they are really one and the same? Many, I presume most, other Christians would say you are not a Christian. Are you a Christian?

    There is, of course, no right answer. Religions are not neatly defined things. Any religion followed by more than a handful of people shows a range of beliefs and practices. Religions are diverse, even if their followers sometimes insist otherwise.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,292
    Chris said:

    It would be interesting to know whether HYUFD thinks there were any Christians before the doctrine of the Trinity was developed in the late second century!

    Maybe the idea is that Jesus was just too modest to mention it.
    Well as Jesus is and was God by definition if you followed him you were a Christian. Jews didn't believe Jesus was a Messiah or God and Muhammad hadn't yet arrived on the scene
  • LeonLeon Posts: 58,914

    I quite like that actually.
    It looks like a boldly designed Nazi gas chamber
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,331
    Ghedebrav said:

    I don't mind Paddy's Wigwam, actually. It is what it is. I'm fond of Westminster Cathedral too.

    Bit harsh to knock Manchester (and Bradford too) for their cathedrals; Manchester's is actually subtly quite lovely, though St Ann's church is nicer still. And let's not forget that York Minster took longer to build than the time Manchester has actually been a city of any note.

    Ely is uniquely spectacular because of it's location in the fens; like stumbling on a cruise liner in a millpond. But my fave is probably Lincoln.
    Yes, Westminster Cathedral is one of the best mosques in the country.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,976
    Leon said:

    A cool list of the world’s ugliest cathedrals

    https://www.thrillist.com/travel/nation/ugliest-cathedrals-in-the-world


    Generally quite a lot of hate for Guildford, and Liverpool Catholic cathedral (which is unfair, i reckon it’s OK)

    And this is a very good contender for THE ugliest cathedral on earth. Rio




    Works better if you think of each of these apertures filled with the decapitated heads of your human sacrifices (yes, I know Rio is further south than the more excessive South American civilisations, but still..).
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,838
    HYUFD said:

    Well as Jesus is and was God by definition if you followed him you were a Christian.
    Do you ever think before you write?

    Do you remember saying a short time ago that someone who doesn't believe in the Trinity isn't "really" a Christian?
  • kamskikamski Posts: 6,163

    What if you believe in the Christian God AND you also believe in the Muslim God, and you happen to think they are really one and the same? Many, I presume most, other Christians would say you are not a Christian. Are you a Christian?

    There is, of course, no right answer. Religions are not neatly defined things. Any religion followed by more than a handful of people shows a range of beliefs and practices. Religions are diverse, even if their followers sometimes insist otherwise.
    It's not up to anyone else is it? Really surprised at the enthusiasm for takfir around here.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,924
    @RachelReevesMP
    ·
    1h
    After 13 years of the Tories, people are asking themselves - am I any better off?

    The answer is a resounding no.

    I think After 13 years of the Tories, people are asking themselves - am I going to be any better off under SKS/Reeves Labour?

    The answer is a resounding no.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 58,914

    Works better if you think of each of these apertures filled with the decapitated heads of your human sacrifices (yes, I know Rio is further south than the more excessive South American civilisations, but still..).
    Apparently that was the inspiration. Mesoamerican pyramids. Pagan sites of brutal human sacrifice

    Tho if you’ve been to Palenque or Chichen Itza or Teotihuacan they are a lot nicer than THAT
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 16,261

    What if you believe in the Christian God AND you also believe in the Muslim God, and you happen to think they are really one and the same? Many, I presume most, other Christians would say you are not a Christian. Are you a Christian?

    There is, of course, no right answer. Religions are not neatly defined things. Any religion followed by more than a handful of people shows a range of beliefs and practices. Religions are diverse, even if their followers sometimes insist otherwise.
    I thought the Christian God and the Islamic God were the same? Basically just the Jewish God.
    Personally I am an Atheist but a cultural Christian. I'm a real sucker for a good Christmas carol.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 12,317
    kjh said:

    I'm visiting my old University today. I'm about to have a beer in the Union. The last time was almost exactly 50 years ago.

    I got a student discount. Isn't that sweet. I'm more used to getting a pensioners discount these days.
  • kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 4,953
    Leon said:

    A cool list of the world’s ugliest cathedrals

    https://www.thrillist.com/travel/nation/ugliest-cathedrals-in-the-world


    Generally quite a lot of hate for Guildford, and Liverpool Catholic cathedral (which is unfair, i reckon it’s OK)

    And this is a very good contender for THE ugliest cathedral on earth. Rio




    Surprised Clifton Cathedral didn't get a look in on that list.

    I honestly don't mind brutalism done right. But there is nothing right about Clifton Cathedral, a building that resembles a dystopian out-of-town shopping centre that belongs in A Clockwork Orange.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 16,261
    Oh and Ed Balls to all believers in His sacred Day.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 9,137

    @RachelReevesMP
    ·
    1h
    After 13 years of the Tories, people are asking themselves - am I any better off?

    The answer is a resounding no.

    I think After 13 years of the Tories, people are asking themselves - am I going to be any better off under SKS/Reeves Labour?

    The answer is a resounding no.

    That's brutally self-aware from Reeves, isn't it? :wink:
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 75,244

    Oh and Ed Balls to all believers in His sacred Day.

    Ed Balls to you. too.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,292
    Chris said:

    Do you ever think before you write?

    Do you remember saying a short time ago that someone who doesn't believe in the Trinity isn't "really" a Christian?
    Yes and no early Christians rejected the fact Jesus was God
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,968
    Nigelb said:

    Ed Balls to you. too.
    Huzzah.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 75,244
    E coli levels in Suffolk river in Thérèse Coffey constituency far above legal limits, data shows
    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/apr/28/e-coli-levels-suffolk-river-therese-coffey-constituency-far-above-legal-limits-data-shows
  • TazTaz Posts: 16,919
    kamski said:

    Yep. The EU would be doing a bit better if the UK was still in it. Just like the UK would be doing better if it was still in the EU.
    So the EU's poor growth is down to Brexit. If only they had negotiated a sensible deal then
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 72,856

    Oh and Ed Balls to all believers in His sacred Day.

    As he gives out owls, does he meet the approval of @bigjohnowls ?
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,968
    Leon said:

    Apparently that was the inspiration. Mesoamerican pyramids. Pagan sites of brutal human sacrifice

    Tho if you’ve been to Palenque or Chichen Itza or Teotihuacan they are a lot nicer than THAT
    It’s like a non pyramid shaped pyramid.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 14,639

    @RachelReevesMP
    ·
    1h
    After 13 years of the Tories, people are asking themselves - am I any better off?

    The answer is a resounding no.

    I think After 13 years of the Tories, people are asking themselves - am I going to be any better off under SKS/Reeves Labour?

    The answer is a resounding no.

    Personally, I'm much, much better off than I was in 2010.
    The years 2010-2023 have, materially (and indeed in other ways) been far, far better for me than 1997-2010.

    Of course, you can't generalise from one person. But my suburb and my city are both doing far better than they were in 2010.

    (Granted, 2010 we were just coming out of the GFC. But If you're going to say that wasn't Labour's fault I would also say that Covid and Ukraine weren't the Tories' fault.)

  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,968

    Works better if you think of each of these apertures filled with the decapitated heads of your human sacrifices (yes, I know Rio is further south than the more excessive South American civilisations, but still..).
    Rio? Is that not Guildford?
  • TazTaz Posts: 16,919

    Labour: "If you don't vote for us, you're a Tory."

    Right, ok, that's a sucky system. We should change it.

    Labour: "We will not countenance changing the system."

    Sigh.
    Where is the demand to change the electoral system coming from ?

    Vocal twitter accounts and so-called progressive alliance fanatics don't really make a mass movement or overwhelming demand.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 75,244
    Eva Green wins her case.

    https://www.theguardian.com/culture/2023/apr/28/eva-green-wins-high-court-battle-over-collapse-of-sci-fi-film
    ...Her victory follows a case in which Green gave evidence, saying it was “humiliating” that private Whatsapp messages she had sent were revealed in court.
    Those messages included her comments about being “obliged to take [the producer’s] shitty peasant crew members from Hampshire” after the location was switched from Ireland. They also included her description of the production as a “B-shitty-movie” and the executive producer, Jake Seal, as “pure vomit,” a “devious sociopath” and “evil”...


    The judge rightly stood up for the rights of potty mouths everywhere.
    ...“I take account of her evident emotional and forthright personality in explaining her more extreme comments about Mr Seal, whom she clearly detested even though she only met him once,”..
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 10,022

    Oh and Ed Balls to all believers in His sacred Day.

    I hadn't realised that Ed Balls day co-incided my Nain's (Grandmother's) birthday.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,968
    Leon said:

    It looks like a boldly designed Nazi gas chamber
    No. It’s like a place of worship rising out of an ancient landscape.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 14,639

    It’s like a non pyramid shaped pyramid.
    ISTR watching a travel show and seeing that it's quite nice on the inside (cf Liverpool Catholic Cathedral).

    Though not actually as nice as an actual York/Durham/Ely type cathedral. Just nice in a 'ooh, pleasant enough in here, not as horrible as the outside led us to believe' way.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 9,137

    No. It’s like a place of worship rising out of an ancient landscape.
    Like the moles have got big and caught religion? :wink:

    This one looks evil church dystopia to me, but I didn't mind some of the others in the article (including some of the others in Brazil and the one in NZ, which I imagine is pretty stunning inside)
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,924
    Taz said:

    Where is the demand to change the electoral system coming from ?

    Vocal twitter accounts and so-called progressive alliance fanatics don't really make a mass movement or overwhelming demand.
    Labour Party Conference last year voted overwhelmingly for it.

    SKS doesnt do Party Democracy though

    Or Socialism for that matter despite being leader of a Democratic Socialist Party
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,292
    Taz said:

    Where is the demand to change the electoral system coming from ?

    Vocal twitter accounts and so-called progressive alliance fanatics don't really make a mass movement or overwhelming demand.
    Biggest supporters of PR in order:

    1 Liberal Democrats
    2 Nigel Farage and RefUK
    3 Caroline Lucas and the Green Party.

    That does not a majority make
  • CookieCookie Posts: 14,639
    HYUFD said:

    Biggest supporters of PR in order:

    1 Liberal Democrats
    2 Nigel Farage and RefUK
    3 Caroline Lucas and the Green Party.

    That does not a majority make
    Parties supporting PR:
    All parties who would see their representation go up with PR.

    Parties opposing PR:
    All parties who would see the representation go down with PR.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 75,244
    edited April 2023
    Taz said:

    Where is the demand to change the electoral system coming from ?

    Vocal twitter accounts and so-called progressive alliance fanatics don't really make a mass movement or overwhelming demand.
    Quite a large proportion of the electorate favour it.

    Here's the long term trend:
    https://bsa.natcen.ac.uk/media/39477/bsa39_constitutional-reform.pdf

    And the last few years;
    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/trackers/should-we-change-our-current-british-voting-system

    It's the actually the fanatical defenders of FPTP who are the truly odd ones.

    The answer to "where is it coming from " is perhaps the generally shitty nature of government we've endured under FPTP. But I speculate.
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 5,393
    Nigelb said:

    Eva Green wins her case.

    https://www.theguardian.com/culture/2023/apr/28/eva-green-wins-high-court-battle-over-collapse-of-sci-fi-film
    ...Her victory follows a case in which Green gave evidence, saying it was “humiliating” that private Whatsapp messages she had sent were revealed in court.
    Those messages included her comments about being “obliged to take [the producer’s] shitty peasant crew members from Hampshire” after the location was switched from Ireland. They also included her description of the production as a “B-shitty-movie” and the executive producer, Jake Seal, as “pure vomit,” a “devious sociopath” and “evil”...


    The judge rightly stood up for the rights of potty mouths everywhere.
    ...“I take account of her evident emotional and forthright personality in explaining her more extreme comments about Mr Seal, whom she clearly detested even though she only met him once,”..

    Although he did temper this with "She said it was ‘humiliating’ but some of her explanations for the language she used and the feelings she expressed – such as they were down to her ‘Frenchness’ – were not credible or adequate."

    I would have allowed her the frenchness defence.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,304
    Cookie said:

    And from your source, have you any idea how that has changed over time? My guess is that it is rather higher than it was 20 years ago and much higher than it was 40 years ago. But you're the man with the source.
    Yep - higher now.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,292
    edited April 2023

    Rio? Is that not Guildford?
    I didn't know the local elections in Guildford this year were that vicious? I mean I know the wars over LD bar charts and Tory local plans are tough but human sacrifice is a little excessive
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,776
    Leon said:

    A cool list of the world’s ugliest cathedrals

    https://www.thrillist.com/travel/nation/ugliest-cathedrals-in-the-world


    Generally quite a lot of hate for Guildford, and Liverpool Catholic cathedral (which is unfair, i reckon it’s OK)

    And this is a very good contender for THE ugliest cathedral on earth. Rio




    The interior looks amazing with a honeycomb of stained glass. At least it's not bland, which is the issue.with Coventry cathedral IMV
This discussion has been closed.