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Some of front pages after Raab’s exit – politicalbetting.com

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  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,159
    edited April 2023
    These are the reasons why we'll end up back in the single market before too long. Business pressure combined with increasing pressure from the younger generation , of all classes, if the some of the polling on this is to be believed.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,416
    Scott_xP said:

    There are extracts from a new book about the chaos and catastrophe of BoZo in Downing Street published in The Times this weekend.

    His reputation will only get worse over time, as will that of his pet project.

    TBF, Boris Island's reputation was pretty low to start with.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,373
    Dominic Raab: "Infamy, infamy, they've all got it infamy".
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,683
    edited April 2023
    Leon said:

    Locals here are complaining about the 38C heat

    I laugh them to scorn and tell them I’m from London where it hits 40C. Gaylords

    In such heat, two things make it tolerable. The availability of aircon, and whether you have to do physical activity. Sitting in the shade with a cool drink is not the same as working in the fields. Once the wet bulb temperature passes 35° fatalities happen. This works out as about 40° and 75% humidity.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208
    darkage said:

    Seems to me the key part of the Raab report is that the permanent secretary at the Justice Department twice spoke to him about his behaviour and asked him to raise issues with her. Raab denied she had done this. Tolley made clear he did not believe him. In and of itself, that is surely a resignation issue.

    Is there are written record of this, or is it a 'he said she said' situation ?. It would be different if there was a written record. There are few formal procedures etc, to manage this type of situation, in a way that there are in companies.

    Think about it this way... if it was the other way around, and it was a senior civil servant who was accused of being 'intimidating' how would it work? I think that there would have been a meeting with HR, and that is about it.

    The reaction to this situation is dangerously polarising. Sure a lot of people who don't like the government are celebrating. But I think the 'activist civil servant' narrative, and Raab's own take on the situation, is also very damaging - in that it is really damaging for public trust in the civil service, as evidenced in a lot of reporting.

    Sunak needs to fundamentally sort out the Ministerial code to a) set out clearer expectations of ministerial conduct but also b) set out processes to resolve complaints about Ministers without a KC report, 4 month long investigation etc, and with the idea that they should only be sacked for something approaching gross misconduct, not vague allegations.

    An internal disciplinary matter got horribly conflated with the politics of his suitability for the role. On what we know Raab should probably have been disciplined short of dismissal, but was allowed to resign for political expediency. That he was uncompetent in his job played almost no part in this outcome.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,226

    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Speaking of the bizarre double standards of expectation that have been at play throughout this unedifying case, it was Raab who – after he succeeded Davis at DExEU – announced in public: “We are, and I hadn’t quite understood the full extent of this … but if you look at the UK and if you look at how we trade in goods, we are particularly reliant on the Dover-Calais crossing.” Imagine saying that out loud as a secretary of state, then beetling off to insult some underling for failing to pander to one of your Microsoft Word idiosyncrasies. Ditto Raab’s failure to read the 32-page Good Friday agreement. Raab eventually resigned as Brexit secretary because he couldn’t support a deal he himself had negotiated. But honestly, mate, tell me again how all you demand from people are the same high professional standards to which you hold yourself.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/apr/21/dominic-raab-hardman-rishi-sunak-scandal

    On the subject of Brexit had this Omnis yesterday:



    It was 49% vs 31% including the DK/WNV
    There's definitely a hysteresis effect here- Rejoin (or even Revisit the type of Brexit) is going to need a big lead to make politicians want to open the can of worms. After all 40% is still a temptingly large "Brexit is in peril" vote.

    But equally, if the polling doesn't drift back towards "Stay out", I don't see how the status quo can persist indefinitely.
    Are they asking for rejoin as the status quo ante, or rejoin as it would be in practice?

    I think signing up to the Euro and Schengen would see a much closer result...
    I suspect the polling isn't picking up that level of subtlety. But for the national psychology, I'm not sure that matters. After all, elections are much more about feels and less about details than we all like to admit.

    And the feels intrigue me. I can see the UK landing in a place where it doesn't like any of the ways forward. The current model of Brexit makes life a bit worse all round. Full fat rejoin has consequences the UK hasn't begun to consider the costs of. Halfway houses will be worse than the ones negotiated by Maggie (rebate), Major (opt outs) and Dave. The UK is too big and proud to put up with Norwegian arrangements.

    What happens when a country doesn't like any of the choices on the table? Often nothing, hence the hysteresis. But what does that do to the national spirit?
    Maybe it's just me, but I'm perfectly happy with the current arrangements and participation in the EPU.
    I'm sure it's not just you, but all the current polling implies you're in a minority on this one.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,528
    edited April 2023
    SandraMc said:

    Canvassing report here on South Coast:
    1 letter from Conservative candidate
    1 flyer from Labour candidate
    Letter plus visit to introduce herself from Green candidate

    With 1500 or so households to visit, it's a challenge to meet them all! I thought I was doing well one day with 9500 steps and the equivalent of 30 flights of stairs (it's a hilly ward with lots of homes up long staircases), but the Green leader showed me his 25000 step count a couple of days ago. As an MP with 40K homes I half-solved the problem by visiting 100 homes every weekend - allowing for holidays, illness etc. that's 4K homes/year, so you can visit half the constituency over a 4-year period. You have to be quite keen, though.

    What's quite sad is that for some mostly elderly people you're the first person to visit them for months. Some say openly that it's lovely to have another human being to talk to for a couple of minutes.

    Scores on the board round here are 1 each from Con, LD, Lab, with the 2nd Lab just going out. None of us have managed the sort of special postal voter push that parties in marginals do at GEs, and I've yet to hear any reports of Tory canvassing.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,373
    FF43 said:

    The claim that Raab was forced out by subversive civil servants because "he wanted the best for Britain" is ludicrous. Don't other people want the best for Britain? Does that immediately trigger a campaign to get rid of them?

    He does have a point.

    If Ministers decide "what is best for Britain" is declaring war with Spain over Gibraltar, that may well spark a Civil Service "campaign to get fid of them".
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,440
    Good morning!
    Canvassing report from North Essex: nothing from anybody. However, one of the independent candidates, a sitting Councillor, posts regularly on Facebook.
    My guess is that the Conservatives will hold one seat, the independent, the other.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,794
    'Teach the parent' reminds me of the Cultural Revolution in China.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-65339214
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,670

    SandraMc said:

    Canvassing report here on South Coast:
    1 letter from Conservative candidate
    1 flyer from Labour candidate
    Letter plus visit to introduce herself from Green candidate

    With 1500 or so households to visit, it's a challenge to meet them all! I thought I was doing well one day with 9500 steps and the equivalent of 30 flights of stairs (it's a hilly ward with lots of homes up long staircases), but the Green leader showed me his 25000 step count a couple of days ago. As an MP with 40K homes I half-solved the problem by visiting 100 homes every weekend - allowing for holidays, illness etc. that's 4K homes/year, so you can visit half the constituency over a 4-year period. You have to be quite keen, though.

    What's quite sad is that for some mostly elderly people you're the first person to visit them for months. Some say openly that it's lovely to have another human being to talk to for a couple of minutes.

    Scores on the board round here are 1 each from Con, LD, Lab, with the 2nd Lab just going out. None of us have managed the sort of special postal voter push that parties in marginals do at GEs, and I've yet to hear any reports of Tory canvassing.
    Indeed. When you get out there you do discover some very lonely people somewhat left behind.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,652
    The only posters up around here in Sidmouth are for independents. Given the age demographic, I would not be surprised if we had the record turnout for postal votes.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,723

    Dominic Raab: "Infamy, infamy, they've all got it infamy".

    You are so 1970s
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,670

    Dominic Raab: "Infamy, infamy, they've all got it infamy".

    You are so 1970s
    So is Raab.
  • GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,860

    Jonathan said:

    Leaflet count in traditionally very safe Tory seat.

    0 Tory
    2 LD
    3 Lab

    2 green signs f all else
    I’ve had a bit of literature from LD and Tory. Lots of LD signs round me, but there always are come election time.

    Getting the hard sell from the local Green Party to do more volunteering a few wards over though.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,340
    Hahaha. I read that brutal review of Jolyon Maugham’s book, the first line of which @BlancheLivermore quotes upthread



    Maugham has made the fatal error of responding angrily and tearfully on Twitter, thereby proving that he is hurt. Never respond to bad reviews. Tsk
  • ClippPClippP Posts: 1,905
    Foxy said:

    I think people are overestimating how much people care about local elections, or how much difference a leaflet makes.

    FWIW, I've received 2 Tory and 2 Lib Dem but I don't think anyone cares.

    I expect a fairly low turnout. And, I don't think it will tell us very much meaningfully about next year.

    Local elections usually are half the turnout of a General Election, and tend to be the more committed voters.

    So I think we will get some information on how well motivated the core vote is for each party, though it is the less committed voters and DKs that are probably key to the next GE.
    And aalsso the state of the local party machines.....
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,652
    If I were a Brexiteer, the two things I would be focusing on relentlessly for improvement would be:
    1. End the ferry and airport queues
    2. Find a way to ease supply chain issues around food and drink

    Both are very visible and both are very negative. Most of the rest can be quietly hidden away. The problem is that solving them will require a much closer relationship with the EU and acceptance of EU rules. But that is just the way of the world.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208

    Seems to me the key part of the Raab report is that the permanent secretary at the Justice Department twice spoke to him about his behaviour and asked him to raise issues with her. Raab denied she had done this. Tolley made clear he did not believe him. In and of itself, that is surely a resignation issue.

    Raab seems to have this habit of lying about a what was said or agreed in meetings to make other people look bad.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Brighton (Hove, actually -ed.) polling report - Green held ward, only 1 leaflet so far from an Independent who has the flower stall by the Church. Sensible policies too, by and large. So that’s one vote sorted.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,670
    You do meet some characters out there.

    The lady who always voted Labour because she loved Mrs Thatcher was special. She didn’t believe me when I tried to explain that Mrs Thatcher was a conservative.

    The genteel immaculately polite little old lady with the manicured garden, with incredibly far right right views was another.

    You can never judge a doorstep by its cover.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,805

    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Speaking of the bizarre double standards of expectation that have been at play throughout this unedifying case, it was Raab who – after he succeeded Davis at DExEU – announced in public: “We are, and I hadn’t quite understood the full extent of this … but if you look at the UK and if you look at how we trade in goods, we are particularly reliant on the Dover-Calais crossing.” Imagine saying that out loud as a secretary of state, then beetling off to insult some underling for failing to pander to one of your Microsoft Word idiosyncrasies. Ditto Raab’s failure to read the 32-page Good Friday agreement. Raab eventually resigned as Brexit secretary because he couldn’t support a deal he himself had negotiated. But honestly, mate, tell me again how all you demand from people are the same high professional standards to which you hold yourself.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/apr/21/dominic-raab-hardman-rishi-sunak-scandal

    On the subject of Brexit had this Omnis yesterday:



    It was 49% vs 31% including the DK/WNV
    There's definitely a hysteresis effect here- Rejoin (or even Revisit the type of Brexit) is going to need a big lead to make politicians want to open the can of worms. After all 40% is still a temptingly large "Brexit is in peril" vote.

    But equally, if the polling doesn't drift back towards "Stay out", I don't see how the status quo can persist indefinitely.
    Are they asking for rejoin as the status quo ante, or rejoin as it would be in practice?

    I think signing up to the Euro and Schengen would see a much closer result...
    These leads have only really existed for about a year, and under Boris 2 years ago (after the successful early UK vaccine roll-out) Stay Out had a clear lead. I'm not sure it's resilient or stable and I suspect that a good amount of it is dynamically-linked to the popularity of the incumbent administration.

    It's probably measuring a "can we all make it all go away, go back to how things were, and pretend it never happened?" sentiment but that's not on offer. So it would probably be subject to heavy swings during any campaign and, were Rejoin successful, would dominate politics for years and simply land us with a different set of political problems thereafter, similar to pre-2016, or worse.

    As always, what people are after is a compromise they can life with, which probably means a closer relationship with the EU than we currently have. Given I've heard from university-educated friends how Rishi has "reversed Brexit" in Northern Ireland, despite having actually extended the scope of sovereignty of HMG, anything that eases everyday life for passage of goods, people and services will probably do the trick.
    Agree - with "it" in this case including all changes since 2016, including those brought about by covid and Ukraine and culture wars. Hankering back for the relative certainties of 2012 when all we had to fall out about was VAT on pasties is entirely understandable.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,652
    The other thing that really surprises me is just how awful the government response has been to the relentless reports of raw sewage being poured into our rivers and seas. That may or may not have a Brexit element to it - I don't know - but it is allowing the narrative to build that it does. It's also incredibly damaging politically. Again down here in Sidders it is a massive topic of local conversation in the local paper and on message boards etc. It's also being highlighted in all the campaign leaflets we are getting. I can't help thinking it is an absolute gift for the LibDems, who won the by-election next door last year, of course. If I were Rishi I would add it to my pledges pronto and be seen to be doing something about it. It is a very Blue Wall issue.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,992

    If I were Rishi I would add it to my pledges pronto and be seen to be doing something about it. It is a very Blue Wall issue.

    Rishi's progress on pledges is not something he will wish to be judged upon
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216

    If I were a Brexiteer, the two things I would be focusing on relentlessly for improvement would be:
    1. End the ferry and airport queues
    2. Find a way to ease supply chain issues around food and drink

    Both are very visible and both are very negative. Most of the rest can be quietly hidden away. The problem is that solving them will require a much closer relationship with the EU and acceptance of EU rules. But that is just the way of the world.

    One way to draw the EU’s attention to the hassle would be to stop EU citizens using e-gates on entry to the U.K. - but I suppose the Home Office doesn’t want to hire the additional inspectors that would require.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,373

    If I were a Brexiteer, the two things I would be focusing on relentlessly for improvement would be:
    1. End the ferry and airport queues
    2. Find a way to ease supply chain issues around food and drink

    Both are very visible and both are very negative. Most of the rest can be quietly hidden away. The problem is that solving them will require a much closer relationship with the EU and acceptance of EU rules. But that is just the way of the world.

    Blaming mutinous Civil Servants is a cheap and politically effective response to the points you raise. The queues don't get any shorter, but GBNews viewers get angrier and angrier with "the enemy within".
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,416
    malcolmg said:

    I am off to Ayr for the Scottish National meeting today , for the big race at 3:35 I am looking at
    Kitty's Light and Your own Story
    Good luck to anyone having a flutter

    Hope the gee gees run well for @malcolmg
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,340
    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    Locals here are complaining about the 38C heat

    I laugh them to scorn and tell them I’m from London where it hits 40C. Gaylords

    In such heat, two things make it tolerable. The availability of aircon, and whether you have to do physical activity. Sitting in the shade with a cool drink is not the same as working in the fields. Once the wet bulb temperature passes 35° fatalities happen. This works out as about 40° and 75% humidity.
    Yes they are talking about the wet bulb thing here. And saying it is close to dangerous

    I’ve never quite grasped what it means. What is a “wet bulb”?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,103

    Nigelb said:

    If Raab is so aggrieved, why did the **** resign ?

    The pressure was immense one would have thought. Guilty, not proven or innocent, he had to go.
    Nah, plenty of people have been underwhelmed by the report. If he had Rishi's backing they could have put together a 'he's learned his lesson' approach and stuck it out.

    There are probably people online claiming this is because Rishi is not a real Brexiter.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,373
    Scott_xP said:

    If I were Rishi I would add it to my pledges pronto and be seen to be doing something about it. It is a very Blue Wall issue.

    Rishi's progress on pledges is not something he will wish to be judged upon
    Although, in for a penny, in for a pound.
  • ClippPClippP Posts: 1,905

    The other thing that really surprises me is just how awful the government response has been to the relentless reports of raw sewage being poured into our rivers and seas. That may or may not have a Brexit element to it - I don't know - but it is allowing the narrative to build that it does. It's also incredibly damaging politically. Again down here in Sidders it is a massive topic of local conversation in the local paper and on message boards etc. It's also being highlighted in all the campaign leaflets we are getting. I can't help thinking it is an absolute gift for the LibDems, who won the by-election next door last year, of course. If I were Rishi I would add it to my pledges pronto and be seen to be doing something about it. It is a very Blue Wall issue.

    Blue Wall or Blue Water, Mr Observer? It is certainly an issue that is distancing the Conservatives from all decent and responsible voters.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,652

    If I were a Brexiteer, the two things I would be focusing on relentlessly for improvement would be:
    1. End the ferry and airport queues
    2. Find a way to ease supply chain issues around food and drink

    Both are very visible and both are very negative. Most of the rest can be quietly hidden away. The problem is that solving them will require a much closer relationship with the EU and acceptance of EU rules. But that is just the way of the world.

    One way to draw the EU’s attention to the hassle would be to stop EU citizens using e-gates on entry to the U.K. - but I suppose the Home Office doesn’t want to hire the additional inspectors that would require.

    Yep, I was thinking that. If you add EEA/EU citizens to the entry queues at airports you very quickly start to get an unmanageable situation. They are already caught in the ferry queues, of course.

  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Taking it well…..

    Quite the review from The (Brexit supporting, pro Climate Change, racist, transphobic, anti-abortion, supine to power) Times.

    https://twitter.com/JolyonMaugham/status/1649676837235171328?s=20
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,652

    If I were a Brexiteer, the two things I would be focusing on relentlessly for improvement would be:
    1. End the ferry and airport queues
    2. Find a way to ease supply chain issues around food and drink

    Both are very visible and both are very negative. Most of the rest can be quietly hidden away. The problem is that solving them will require a much closer relationship with the EU and acceptance of EU rules. But that is just the way of the world.

    Blaming mutinous Civil Servants is a cheap and politically effective response to the points you raise. The queues don't get any shorter, but GBNews viewers get angrier and angrier with "the enemy within".

    Yep - but the problem with that is that there are not enough GBNews viewers to sustain a GBNews-style government.

  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,675
    Taking part in my first ever political protest today.🚲

    Also have one of my worse hangovers in years. 🍷
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,300
    Nigelb said:

    Kremlin tries to build antiwar coalition in Germany, documents show
    Marrying Germany’s far right and far left is a Kremlin goal, according to a trove of Russian documents reviewed by The Washington Post
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/04/21/germany-russia-interference-afd-wagenknecht/

    The two extremes of the political spectrum do tend to have quite a lot in common.

    They always did - hence the anecdotes of people encountering members of the SA they’d last seen in the Kamfbund.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,416

    Scott_xP said:

    If I were Rishi I would add it to my pledges pronto and be seen to be doing something about it. It is a very Blue Wall issue.

    Rishi's progress on pledges is not something he will wish to be judged upon
    Although, in for a penny, in for a pound.
    Raab was beating people up when they spent a penny? :hushed:
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,340

    The other thing that really surprises me is just how awful the government response has been to the relentless reports of raw sewage being poured into our rivers and seas. That may or may not have a Brexit element to it - I don't know - but it is allowing the narrative to build that it does. It's also incredibly damaging politically. Again down here in Sidders it is a massive topic of local conversation in the local paper and on message boards etc. It's also being highlighted in all the campaign leaflets we are getting. I can't help thinking it is an absolute gift for the LibDems, who won the by-election next door last year, of course. If I were Rishi I would add it to my pledges pronto and be seen to be doing something about it. It is a very Blue Wall issue.

    I entirely agree with that. It’s about as basic as politics gets. Shit is pouring into our rivers and seas and people are - rightly - not happy

    It is being blamed in part on Brexit, in part on immigration (with who knows how much justification) and very much on the government. It seems to sum up the sense of Britain getting poorer and shabbier. They should be acting fast. It does not feel like they are
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,084

    Nigelb said:

    If Raab is so aggrieved, why did the **** resign ?

    Bullied into it by the dark Kafkaesque forces of woke by his own account; perhaps there should be another enquiry into bullying?
    The only nod to Kafka I can see is a man turning into a cockroach. Why the hell did the BBC feel obliged to give him a platform for an extended whine?
    It’s news, even if it’s bullshit, so it’s their remit.
    As is questioning the bullshit.
  • On holiday but today's must read.

    ‘I’m the Führer, the king’: inside Boris Johnson’s chaotic world

    In July 2019, Boris Johnson, our new prime minister, caused the first of many stirs when he appointed Dominic Cummings as his special adviser. Cummings came to be seen as the power behind the throne. But there was another pretender to that title: Carrie Symonds. By Anthony Seldon and Raymond Newell


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/103012f0-df61-11ed-9cc2-0f7e26ed83eb?shareToken=fa576b61edd849ef4fe01cd8f7aff7c4

    That makes for uncomfortable reading. It is to the eternal shame of the UKIPservatives that they had to foist that shower of shite, those chancers, those charlatans, those shameless liars, on us to force through their precious (and, let’s face it, shit) ‘oven ready Brexit’.

    Beyond the smoking wreckage of Brexit, we also had the misfortune to have them at the helm during Covid. A government headed by a man incapable of making a decision and sticking to it. A bluffer, a blagger, a bullshitter.

    History will not be kind to this particular period of Conservative rule. They have brought the country they pay cursory lip service to loving to its knees.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,300
    IanB2 said:

    ClippP said:

    Taz said:

    Heathener said:

    Morning all.

    Raab is typical of the current tories. Tone deaf to the stench of sleaze, corruption, and hatred which surrounds almost all their actions and utterances.

    Whatever Mike and the Wobblers say, the tories are in for a shellacking and Labour will win a landslide.

    20% ahead in the latest opinion poll ...



    Don't be ridiculous. It will be much worse than that.

    Labour will win a landslide so vast the land will end up in the sea and form a new island called LabourLand. Labour will have a 30% lead at least and the Conservatives will be lucky if they need a minibus to fit all their MPs in at the end. The minibus will be daubed with 'criminals' and 'shame' and it will be spat at in the street.

    Whatever people say THIS IS WHAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN.
    I

    A Day of Reckoning is coming.
    I’ve never known such anger. It’s all people talk about. Pure venom. They’ll be lucky to get more seats than the Lib Dems.
    It's also boots on the ground, isn't it? The postal votes are arriving, and so far I have received nothing at all from the Conservatives, though I understand an introductory card has been delivered in some roads. In contrast, I have received one communication from Labour and three from the Lib Dem candidate.

    This is in a Conservative-held ward, and the Parliamentary seat is held by a Cabinet miinister, so the Tory organisation ought to be better than seems to be the case.

    What is happening elsewhere? Has the Tory organisation collapsed everywhere? Are they in for a real trouncing on 4th May?

    You do need a reasonable number of supporters under the age of 65 to get sufficient boots on the ground to do a leafletting and doorstepping campaign.

    (Yes, there are some younger Conservative activists even now, and yes there are some very active OAPs, but they add up to not enough. One has to admire the energy of people like Cllr Palmer.)
    Cllr Palmer’s energy is legendary….
    His did have errrrr…. Assistance?
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 3,883
    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    Locals here are complaining about the 38C heat

    I laugh them to scorn and tell them I’m from London where it hits 40C. Gaylords

    In such heat, two things make it tolerable. The availability of aircon, and whether you have to do physical activity. Sitting in the shade with a cool drink is not the same as working in the fields. Once the wet bulb temperature passes 35° fatalities happen. This works out as about 40° and 75% humidity.
    Yes they are talking about the wet bulb thing here. And saying it is close to dangerous

    I’ve never quite grasped what it means. What is a “wet bulb”?
    it's a bulb thermometer wrapped in a wet cloth.

    t helps calculate humidity or wind chill
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,103
    ydoethur said:

    darkage said:

    Seems to me the key part of the Raab report is that the permanent secretary at the Justice Department twice spoke to him about his behaviour and asked him to raise issues with her. Raab denied she had done this. Tolley made clear he did not believe him. In and of itself, that is surely a resignation issue.

    Is there are written record of this, or is it a 'he said she said' situation ?. It would be different if there was a written record. There are few formal procedures etc, to manage this type of situation, in a way that there are in companies.

    Think about it this way... if it was the other way around, and it was a senior civil servant who was accused of being 'intimidating' how would it work? I think that there would have been a meeting with HR, and that is about it.

    The reaction to this situation is dangerously polarising. Sure a lot of people who don't like the government are celebrating. But I think the 'activist civil servant' narrative, and Raab's own take on the situation, is also very damaging - in that it is really damaging for public trust in the civil service, as evidenced in a lot of reporting.

    Sunak needs to fundamentally sort out the Ministerial code to a) set out clearer expectations of ministerial conduct but also b) set out processes to resolve complaints about Ministers without a KC report, 4 month long investigation etc, and with the idea that they should only be sacked for something approaching gross misconduct, not vague allegations.

    The PS kept a contemporaneous, written record of the exchanges and handed them over to Tolley.

    It could of course have been written later and predated. I've known that happen in HR situations.

    But the question is - why would she? It doesn't seem she was one of the complainants.

    Which is presumably why it was accepted as genuine and Raab's 'never spoke to me' was not.
    Quite. Even if you are not going to complain you make a note about particularly difficult or sensitive discussions in case it comes up later, especially if you can see that as being likely. More politicians should start doing diaries again?
  • FlannerFlanner Posts: 437

    I've yet to hear any reports of Tory canvassing.

    Here in West Oxfordshire - only a decade ago, rock-solid safe Tory heartland - there simply isn't a Tory poster to be seen. Where ten years ago, vast landowners told their tenant farmers to put up Tory posters, today's farmers ignore them, or display their own support for the LibDems or Greens. In more built-up parts of the district, the odd fluttering Labour poster amid a modest background of LibDemmery.

    In the middle of the season for villages' Annual General Parish Meetings, not a sign of the poor old Tories lumbered with standing for the now Lib/Lab-run Council in May. And no-one's even surprised any more the Tories are too frit - or lazy - to reveal themselves. Even the local universities' Tory clubs don't seem to have the spare members to canvass the hinterland.

    Does this mean the Tories are about to be wiped out? Or that elderly Tories - with their postal votes and bus passes the new vote-supressing laws still accept s voter ID - will turn out and vote however little activist support has survived the catastrophe Johnson, Truss and Raab have inflicted on the area?

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,103
    FF43 said:

    The claim that Raab was forced out by subversive civil servants because "he wanted the best for Britain" is ludicrous. Don't other people want the best for Britain? Does that immediately trigger a campaign to get rid of them?

    Apparently none of his other colleagues in Cabinet want the best for Britain. Apart from Patel previously.
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 5,398
    Chris said:

    darkage said:

    Seems to me the key part of the Raab report is that the permanent secretary at the Justice Department twice spoke to him about his behaviour and asked him to raise issues with her. Raab denied she had done this. Tolley made clear he did not believe him. In and of itself, that is surely a resignation issue.

    Is there are written record of this, or is it a 'he said she said' situation ?. It would be different if there was a written record.
    I think the fact that you say "Is there a written record ... It would be different if there was ..." says something about the level of preconceptions about this.

    As already discussed, there was a written record made by the civil servant, which Tolley examined and evidently accepted as genuine.



    Yeah but not one that was agreed with Raab and he agreed at the time, IE like would be the case in a formal disciplinary proceeding. That is what I see as the problem here is. The whole thing is not recorded. It is based on trust and done informally. If you end up in this awkward situation, where a KC need to rule a year later on findings of fact as to 'who said what' , then the relationship has broken down and there is an underlying structural failure.

    The point that I am making here is that the correct response to this situation is actually you need better procedures and the ultimate outcome (a Ministerial resignation) is actually disproportionate and dysfunctional. To be fair, that is what I am reading in Sunak's letter. But it will be difficult for him to sort out.

  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,675
    Leon said:

    The other thing that really surprises me is just how awful the government response has been to the relentless reports of raw sewage being poured into our rivers and seas. That may or may not have a Brexit element to it - I don't know - but it is allowing the narrative to build that it does. It's also incredibly damaging politically. Again down here in Sidders it is a massive topic of local conversation in the local paper and on message boards etc. It's also being highlighted in all the campaign leaflets we are getting. I can't help thinking it is an absolute gift for the LibDems, who won the by-election next door last year, of course. If I were Rishi I would add it to my pledges pronto and be seen to be doing something about it. It is a very Blue Wall issue.

    I entirely agree with that. It’s about as basic as politics gets. Shit is pouring into our rivers and seas and people are - rightly - not happy

    It is being blamed in part on Brexit, in part on immigration (with who knows how much justification) and very much on the government. It seems to sum up the sense of Britain getting poorer and shabbier. They should be acting fast. It does not feel like they are
    Does anyone know why it has suddenly become a salient issue? It must've been going on for years. And will take decades to fix.

    Gone fishing? Wild Isles? Feargal Sharkey?
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,904
    The Rest is Politics: AC and Rory discuss Raab for 25 minutes.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eg0IvUO03OE or your favourite podcast platform.

    Rory was obstructed. Rishi has now lost three cabinet ministers in his six months or so in office. Ten Justice Secretaries in ten years.
  • The other thing that really surprises me is just how awful the government response has been to the relentless reports of raw sewage being poured into our rivers and seas. That may or may not have a Brexit element to it - I don't know - but it is allowing the narrative to build that it does. It's also incredibly damaging politically. Again down here in Sidders it is a massive topic of local conversation in the local paper and on message boards etc. It's also being highlighted in all the campaign leaflets we are getting. I can't help thinking it is an absolute gift for the LibDems, who won the by-election next door last year, of course. If I were Rishi I would add it to my pledges pronto and be seen to be doing something about it. It is a very Blue Wall issue.

    It is baffling. The Tories - having taken millions of donations last year alone - from polluters and climate change deniers - have set their brains up to basically not care about the environment.

    You would think that water companies regularly flushing human turds onto tourist beaches would be seen as a Bad Thing and stopped. Instead the response is first to ignore it and then to attack the people complaining.

    Yes, I know the Just Stop Oil wazzocks don't help with the politics of this, but what votes are to be gained from letting water companies pollute the beaches?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,103

    I think people are overestimating how much people care about local elections, or how much difference a leaflet makes.

    FWIW, I've received 2 Tory and 2 Lib Dem but I don't think anyone cares.

    I expect a fairly low turnout. And, I don't think it will tell us very much meaningfully about next year.

    Turnout in locals I believe is usually around a third. I think in a genuine uncertain situation you might get a few votes from leaflets where one side bothered, I've factored that in before, and another did not, but I suspect it is marginal.

    Activists want to believe their efforts make a significant difference but I fear that may only really be the case with independents, where the leaflet hits someone with no preconceptions. Parties we go by national and local news.
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 3,883
    Flanner said:

    I've yet to hear any reports of Tory canvassing.

    Here in West Oxfordshire - only a decade ago, rock-solid safe Tory heartland - there simply isn't a Tory poster to be seen. Where ten years ago, vast landowners told their tenant farmers to put up Tory posters, today's farmers ignore them, or display their own support for the LibDems or Greens. In more built-up parts of the district, the odd fluttering Labour poster amid a modest background of LibDemmery.

    In the middle of the season for villages' Annual General Parish Meetings, not a sign of the poor old Tories lumbered with standing for the now Lib/Lab-run Council in May. And no-one's even surprised any more the Tories are too frit - or lazy - to reveal themselves. Even the local universities' Tory clubs don't seem to have the spare members to canvass the hinterland.

    Does this mean the Tories are about to be wiped out? Or that elderly Tories - with their postal votes and bus passes the new vote-supressing laws still accept s voter ID - will turn out and vote however little activist support has survived the catastrophe Johnson, Truss and Raab have inflicted on the area?

    one can but hope. There would be no justice in the world if the tories survive the most recent 4 years of disdain, arrogance and fraud inflicted on the country.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,103
    Leon said:

    Hahaha. I read that brutal review of Jolyon Maugham’s book, the first line of which @BlancheLivermore quotes upthread



    Maugham has made the fatal error of responding angrily and tearfully on Twitter, thereby proving that he is hurt. Never respond to bad reviews. Tsk

    Lesson learned the hard way? By a friend of yours of course.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,300

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    Locals here are complaining about the 38C heat

    I laugh them to scorn and tell them I’m from London where it hits 40C. Gaylords

    In such heat, two things make it tolerable. The availability of aircon, and whether you have to do physical activity. Sitting in the shade with a cool drink is not the same as working in the fields. Once the wet bulb temperature passes 35° fatalities happen. This works out as about 40° and 75% humidity.
    Yes they are talking about the wet bulb thing here. And saying it is close to dangerous

    I’ve never quite grasped what it means. What is a “wet bulb”?
    it's a bulb thermometer wrapped in a wet cloth.

    t helps calculate humidity or wind chill
    During WWII a T class submarine in the Far East reported heat and humidity reading to the Admiralty - to be told the values recorded were incompatible with life.

    The same boat bartered an air conditioning unit from the US Navy.

    And discovered that aside from enabling people to sleep, preventing the electrics shorting out every ten minutes etc that they had doubled the freshwater making capacity of the boat.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,340
    ChatGPT on “wet bulb temperatures”


    Wet bulb temperature is a measure of air temperature that takes into account the cooling effect of water evaporation. It is determined by covering a thermometer's bulb with a wet cloth and exposing it to airflow. The wet bulb temperature represents the lowest temperature that can be reached through evaporative cooling under a given set of conditions, such as humidity and air pressure.

    Wet bulb temperature is important to human health because it is directly related to the body's ability to dissipate heat through perspiration. When the wet bulb temperature is high, it becomes more difficult for the human body to cool itself through evaporation of sweat, which can lead to heat stress or heatstroke.

    Heat stress occurs when the body's core temperature rises due to an inability to cool down effectively. This can result in symptoms such as heavy sweating, rapid breathing, increased heart rate, and dizziness. In more severe cases, heatstroke can occur, which is a life-threatening condition that requires immediate medical attention. It is characterized by a high body temperature, confusion, unconsciousness, and even organ failure.

    High wet bulb temperatures are particularly dangerous in combination with high ambient temperatures and high humidity, as these factors make it difficult for the body to maintain a stable internal temperature. As climate change causes temperatures to rise and humidity levels to increase, wet bulb temperatures become an increasingly important metric for understanding and mitigating the impacts of heat on human health.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677
    Jonathan said:

    You do meet some characters out there.

    I met somebody who claimed to be third ever member of the SNP. I told him to vote Green as the SNP was founded in the 30s so he was obviously immortal and needed a sustainable ecosystem more than most.

    My seat on the parish council is uncontested now so I will be re-elected. I promised my opponent (Independent) a 'lively' campaign conducted almost entirely on social media, they didn't have the fortitude for that and dropped out. I have also been made Chair of the Finance Committee and my inaugural act was to disband it which sent everyone scurrying for the rule book.
  • kle4 said:

    FF43 said:

    The claim that Raab was forced out by subversive civil servants because "he wanted the best for Britain" is ludicrous. Don't other people want the best for Britain? Does that immediately trigger a campaign to get rid of them?

    Apparently none of his other colleagues in Cabinet want the best for Britain. Apart from Patel previously.
    When Patel was conducting her own private foreign policy with a foreign power? That was definitely Best for Britain. When Braverman was committing big security breaches in the Home Office? Best for Britain. Johnson covering up his pincher friend. Best for Britain. £107m for no PPE, no questions asked? Best for Britain.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,300
    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    The other thing that really surprises me is just how awful the government response has been to the relentless reports of raw sewage being poured into our rivers and seas. That may or may not have a Brexit element to it - I don't know - but it is allowing the narrative to build that it does. It's also incredibly damaging politically. Again down here in Sidders it is a massive topic of local conversation in the local paper and on message boards etc. It's also being highlighted in all the campaign leaflets we are getting. I can't help thinking it is an absolute gift for the LibDems, who won the by-election next door last year, of course. If I were Rishi I would add it to my pledges pronto and be seen to be doing something about it. It is a very Blue Wall issue.

    I entirely agree with that. It’s about as basic as politics gets. Shit is pouring into our rivers and seas and people are - rightly - not happy

    It is being blamed in part on Brexit, in part on immigration (with who knows how much justification) and very much on the government. It seems to sum up the sense of Britain getting poorer and shabbier. They should be acting fast. It does not feel like they are
    Does anyone know why it has suddenly become a salient issue? It must've been going on for years. And will take decades to fix.

    Gone fishing? Wild Isles? Feargal Sharkey?
    It was a problem. Then people suddenly noticed it.

    It has not been helped by the belief that with a growing population, we should not increase our infrastructure. For both fiscal and, ironically, environmental reasons.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,263
    Scott_xP said:

    Speaking of the bizarre double standards of expectation that have been at play throughout this unedifying case, it was Raab who – after he succeeded Davis at DExEU – announced in public: “We are, and I hadn’t quite understood the full extent of this … but if you look at the UK and if you look at how we trade in goods, we are particularly reliant on the Dover-Calais crossing.” Imagine saying that out loud as a secretary of state, then beetling off to insult some underling for failing to pander to one of your Microsoft Word idiosyncrasies. Ditto Raab’s failure to read the 32-page Good Friday agreement. Raab eventually resigned as Brexit secretary because he couldn’t support a deal he himself had negotiated. But honestly, mate, tell me again how all you demand from people are the same high professional standards to which you hold yourself.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/apr/21/dominic-raab-hardman-rishi-sunak-scandal

    What he said is absolutely reasonable.

    I have no idea what the actual percentage of trade via Dover is, but for example say it is 90%.

    If someone had asked me I would probably have guessed 75%.

    So I “haven’t appreciated to the full extent” how dependent we are on that route
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,528
    kle4 said:

    I think people are overestimating how much people care about local elections, or how much difference a leaflet makes.

    FWIW, I've received 2 Tory and 2 Lib Dem but I don't think anyone cares.

    I expect a fairly low turnout. And, I don't think it will tell us very much meaningfully about next year.

    Turnout in locals I believe is usually around a third. I think in a genuine uncertain situation you might get a few votes from leaflets where one side bothered, I've factored that in before, and another did not, but I suspect it is marginal.

    Activists want to believe their efforts make a significant difference but I fear that may only really be the case with independents, where the leaflet hits someone with no preconceptions. Parties we go by national and local news.
    It's a big thing where tactical voting comes into play. LibDem SOP is to swamp voters with leaflets, not so that they read them but to "show" that they are the main challengers. Conversely, Greens and RefUk need to leaflet to show they're on the map locally.

    I do expect low turnout!
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,344
    Eabhal said:

    Taking part in my first ever political protest today.🚲

    Also have one of my worse hangovers in years. 🍷

    what you protesting about , hopefully not woke nonesense with a bunch of snowflakes
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,084
    edited April 2023
    Scott_xP said:

    @andreajenkyns
    Sad to see @DominicRaab leave gov. PM should have backed him. I was Dom's PPS when he was Housing Minister & saw his commitment, grasp of the brief, was always curtious & honest. This has set a dangerous precident. I previously backed him for leader as he is a true Thacherite.

    What did he achieve at housing ?

    And is ‘curtious’ the opposite of courteous ?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,103

    Taking it well…..

    Quite the review from The (Brexit supporting, pro Climate Change, racist, transphobic, anti-abortion, supine to power) Times.

    https://twitter.com/JolyonMaugham/status/1649676837235171328?s=20

    Supine to power is a telling whinge. I'm all for judicially reviewing decisions, some succeed and decisions should be challengable, but part of getting to do so is on the understanding you have a decent case, and he lost so many that was clearly not so for plenty of them, and his response is to blame judges for kowtowing to government, which is essentially the same supine complaint.

    He must accept thats not true internally, since I recall from the figures he scaled back the number of challenges after going a bit overboard with Covid challenges.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,792
    kle4 said:

    I think people are overestimating how much people care about local elections, or how much difference a leaflet makes.

    FWIW, I've received 2 Tory and 2 Lib Dem but I don't think anyone cares.

    I expect a fairly low turnout. And, I don't think it will tell us very much meaningfully about next year.

    Turnout in locals I believe is usually around a third. I think in a genuine uncertain situation you might get a few votes from leaflets where one side bothered, I've factored that in before, and another did not, but I suspect it is marginal.

    Activists want to believe their efforts make a significant difference but I fear that may only really be the case with independents, where the leaflet hits someone with no preconceptions. Parties we go by national and local news.
    Mass leafleting works if its focus is on the local campaign. It is the success behind LD by election successes. My first main role was as agent for 2 guys in a Borough election. There were parish elections as well so we had enough election expenses leeway to knock out lots cheap leaflets. The 3 of us funded it and took the whole campaign time off work and worked it from 6 in the morning to 11 at night 7 days a week. Delivering and canvassing and then in the evening after 9 pm updating the records and designing the next leaflet. I lost a stone in weight with all the walking. We delivered 13 leaflets. We overturned a rock solid Tory seat comfortably in a year that the Liberals were losing seats.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,084

    I think people are overestimating how much people care about local elections...

    That would certainly be an accurate characterisation of Conservative policy towards local government over the past four decades.
    Not that Labour have been much better.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,340
    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    Hahaha. I read that brutal review of Jolyon Maugham’s book, the first line of which @BlancheLivermore quotes upthread



    Maugham has made the fatal error of responding angrily and tearfully on Twitter, thereby proving that he is hurt. Never respond to bad reviews. Tsk

    Lesson learned the hard way? By a friend of yours of course.
    It’s a lesson every journalist or author learns early on. Nothing unique to me. You just don’t do it. I’ve heard some hair raising examples of writers responding so badly to poor reviews they’ve
    jeopardised their careers

    And Maugham has done a particularly fine job by responding to the accusation that he is a pompous bloviator by…. Pompously bloviating
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,652

    The other thing that really surprises me is just how awful the government response has been to the relentless reports of raw sewage being poured into our rivers and seas. That may or may not have a Brexit element to it - I don't know - but it is allowing the narrative to build that it does. It's also incredibly damaging politically. Again down here in Sidders it is a massive topic of local conversation in the local paper and on message boards etc. It's also being highlighted in all the campaign leaflets we are getting. I can't help thinking it is an absolute gift for the LibDems, who won the by-election next door last year, of course. If I were Rishi I would add it to my pledges pronto and be seen to be doing something about it. It is a very Blue Wall issue.

    It is baffling. The Tories - having taken millions of donations last year alone - from polluters and climate change deniers - have set their brains up to basically not care about the environment.

    You would think that water companies regularly flushing human turds onto tourist beaches would be seen as a Bad Thing and stopped. Instead the response is first to ignore it and then to attack the people complaining.

    Yes, I know the Just Stop Oil wazzocks don't help with the politics of this, but what votes are to be gained from letting water companies pollute the beaches?

    Not just the beaches - it's all very visible in the rivers too. It is ruining so many habitats. David Attenborough was all over it in his recent TV series - even in the programmes that did make it onto BBC1. It's such an obvious own goal - and it is the kind of local issue that is made for the LibDems, in particular. Like passport queues and empty shelves, people can see it with their own eyes. It may not be Brexit, but if people think it is then it is, if you see what I mean. I just can't believe the government can't see it.

  • darkagedarkage Posts: 5,398

    Scott_xP said:

    Speaking of the bizarre double standards of expectation that have been at play throughout this unedifying case, it was Raab who – after he succeeded Davis at DExEU – announced in public: “We are, and I hadn’t quite understood the full extent of this … but if you look at the UK and if you look at how we trade in goods, we are particularly reliant on the Dover-Calais crossing.” Imagine saying that out loud as a secretary of state, then beetling off to insult some underling for failing to pander to one of your Microsoft Word idiosyncrasies. Ditto Raab’s failure to read the 32-page Good Friday agreement. Raab eventually resigned as Brexit secretary because he couldn’t support a deal he himself had negotiated. But honestly, mate, tell me again how all you demand from people are the same high professional standards to which you hold yourself.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/apr/21/dominic-raab-hardman-rishi-sunak-scandal

    What he said is absolutely reasonable.

    I have no idea what the actual percentage of trade via Dover is, but for example say it is 90%.

    If someone had asked me I would probably have guessed 75%.

    So I “haven’t appreciated to the full extent” how dependent we are on that route
    Exactly, this whole episode is just misinformation designed to undermine politicians in public discourse.

    It is actually seems like evidence that he read his briefing notes, etc....

    There are statements that reveal outrageous ignorance on the part of politicians but this wasn't one of them.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,084
    FF43 said:

    darkage said:

    Seems to me the key part of the Raab report is that the permanent secretary at the Justice Department twice spoke to him about his behaviour and asked him to raise issues with her. Raab denied she had done this. Tolley made clear he did not believe him. In and of itself, that is surely a resignation issue.

    Is there are written record of this, or is it a 'he said she said' situation ?. It would be different if there was a written record. There are few formal procedures etc, to manage this type of situation, in a way that there are in companies.

    Think about it this way... if it was the other way around, and it was a senior civil servant who was accused of being 'intimidating' how would it work? I think that there would have been a meeting with HR, and that is about it.

    The reaction to this situation is dangerously polarising. Sure a lot of people who don't like the government are celebrating. But I think the 'activist civil servant' narrative, and Raab's own take on the situation, is also very damaging - in that it is really damaging for public trust in the civil service, as evidenced in a lot of reporting.

    Sunak needs to fundamentally sort out the Ministerial code to a) set out clearer expectations of ministerial conduct but also b) set out processes to resolve complaints about Ministers without a KC report, 4 month long investigation etc, and with the idea that they should only be sacked for something approaching gross misconduct, not vague allegations.

    An internal disciplinary matter got horribly conflated with the politics of his suitability for the role. On what we know Raab should probably have been disciplined short of dismissal, but was allowed to resign for political expediency. That he was incompetent in his job played almost no part in this outcome.
    On the contrary, his inability to manage effectively is what lead to the complaints.

  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,340
    Maugham is now being brutally mocked by J K Rowling. Enjoyable
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208

    The other thing that really surprises me is just how awful the government response has been to the relentless reports of raw sewage being poured into our rivers and seas. That may or may not have a Brexit element to it - I don't know - but it is allowing the narrative to build that it does. It's also incredibly damaging politically. Again down here in Sidders it is a massive topic of local conversation in the local paper and on message boards etc. It's also being highlighted in all the campaign leaflets we are getting. I can't help thinking it is an absolute gift for the LibDems, who won the by-election next door last year, of course. If I were Rishi I would add it to my pledges pronto and be seen to be doing something about it. It is a very Blue Wall issue.

    The Brexit angle is that the government is now free to allow pollution of its waters without unwanted interference from the EU. A sensible response from the government would be to say what the EU required us to do is what we want to do anyway.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,103
    Dura_Ace said:

    Jonathan said:

    You do meet some characters out there.

    I met somebody who claimed to be third ever member of the SNP. I told him to vote Green as the SNP was founded in the 30s so he was obviously immortal and needed a sustainable ecosystem more than most.

    My seat on the parish council is uncontested now so I will be re-elected. I promised my opponent (Independent) a 'lively' campaign conducted almost entirely on social media, they didn't have the fortitude for that and dropped out. I have also been made Chair of the Finance Committee and my inaugural act was to disband it which sent everyone scurrying for the rule book.
    I would too, most committees are not capable of disbandment by whim of the chair, indeed most such roles chairs have no especial powers beyond a casting vote.

    If you want to be truly radical and ruffle local feathers you could lead a campaign to the principal council to abolish your parish council altogether.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,827
    edited April 2023
    Nigelb said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @andreajenkyns
    Sad to see @DominicRaab leave gov. PM should have backed him. I was Dom's PPS when he was Housing Minister & saw his commitment, grasp of the brief, was always curtious & honest. This has set a dangerous precident. I previously backed him for leader as he is a true Thacherite.

    What did he achieve at housing ?

    And is ‘curtious’ the opposite of courteous ?
    We have had 15 Housing Ministers since 2010. The idea is that none of them are there long enough to achieve anything beyond the status quo.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,652
    FF43 said:

    The other thing that really surprises me is just how awful the government response has been to the relentless reports of raw sewage being poured into our rivers and seas. That may or may not have a Brexit element to it - I don't know - but it is allowing the narrative to build that it does. It's also incredibly damaging politically. Again down here in Sidders it is a massive topic of local conversation in the local paper and on message boards etc. It's also being highlighted in all the campaign leaflets we are getting. I can't help thinking it is an absolute gift for the LibDems, who won the by-election next door last year, of course. If I were Rishi I would add it to my pledges pronto and be seen to be doing something about it. It is a very Blue Wall issue.

    The Brexit angle is that the government is now free to allow pollution of its waters without unwanted interference from the EU. A sensible response from the government would be to say what the EU required us to do is what we want to do anyway.

    You'd have thought so.

  • darkagedarkage Posts: 5,398
    What would have been quite amusing is for Sunak to have appointed someone like Lee Anderson to the MOJ, with a remit to sort out the 'bullying and intimidation' issues there.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,103
    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    Hahaha. I read that brutal review of Jolyon Maugham’s book, the first line of which @BlancheLivermore quotes upthread



    Maugham has made the fatal error of responding angrily and tearfully on Twitter, thereby proving that he is hurt. Never respond to bad reviews. Tsk

    Lesson learned the hard way? By a friend of yours of course.
    It’s a lesson every journalist or author learns early on. Nothing unique to me. You just don’t do it. I’ve heard some hair raising examples of writers responding so badly to poor reviews they’ve
    jeopardised their careers

    And Maugham has done a particularly fine job by responding to the accusation that he is a pompous bloviator by…. Pompously bloviating
    Reminds of Bercow blowing up and lashing out hysterically to prove how he never blows up or lashes out hysterically.

    Remember that historian of Russia who would leave negative Amazon reviews under rivals? So petty.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,652
    Leon said:

    Maugham is now being brutally mocked by J K Rowling. Enjoyable

    Jolyon Maugham and Lord David Frost fighting it out for the gold medal in the sanctimonious, lack of self-knowledge, category at the arsehole Olympics would be something to see.

  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,792
    Leon said:

    Maugham is now being brutally mocked by J K Rowling. Enjoyable

    I do have quite a bit of sympathy. It is why my involvement in politics has always been as an activist and not a candidate. I don't think I could cope with flack, particularly the undeserved.

    Regarding the reviews of your books - If and when you get a bad one have you always had a thick skin or did you have to grow one? Do you get upset at all or is it just water off a ducks back? Interested to know.
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 4,587
    edited April 2023
    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    The other thing that really surprises me is just how awful the government response has been to the relentless reports of raw sewage being poured into our rivers and seas. That may or may not have a Brexit element to it - I don't know - but it is allowing the narrative to build that it does. It's also incredibly damaging politically. Again down here in Sidders it is a massive topic of local conversation in the local paper and on message boards etc. It's also being highlighted in all the campaign leaflets we are getting. I can't help thinking it is an absolute gift for the LibDems, who won the by-election next door last year, of course. If I were Rishi I would add it to my pledges pronto and be seen to be doing something about it. It is a very Blue Wall issue.

    I entirely agree with that. It’s about as basic as politics gets. Shit is pouring into our rivers and seas and people are - rightly - not happy

    It is being blamed in part on Brexit, in part on immigration (with who knows how much justification) and very much on the government. It seems to sum up the sense of Britain getting poorer and shabbier. They should be acting fast. It does not feel like they are
    Does anyone know why it has suddenly become a salient issue? It must've been going on for years. And will take decades to fix.

    Gone fishing? Wild Isles? Feargal Sharkey?
    It's a decreasing problem, in decade terms. Two reasons:

    1. It actually increased in 2021 - weather related, apparently
    2. The government has mandated sensors be put on all sewage outflows to detect how many hours they are in use. This allows unscrupulous or dim journalists to say the problem is getting worse because there is data now.

    It's a really good issue for opposition parties: the public really do seem to believe we didn't used to have any sewage outflows...
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,723

    Dominic Raab: "Infamy, infamy, they've all got it infamy".

    You are so 1970s

    The people's verdict in Raab is in ... and they think it is good he is out:

    https://twitter.com/drjennings/status/1649680107097735168

    The basic problem he has is that anyone who has ever worked in an office, on a factory floor, on a construction site, in a shop, or anywhere else, knows a Raab.

    You dont know Raab so you cant make such judgements unless of course you want to smear him.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,103
    darkage said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Speaking of the bizarre double standards of expectation that have been at play throughout this unedifying case, it was Raab who – after he succeeded Davis at DExEU – announced in public: “We are, and I hadn’t quite understood the full extent of this … but if you look at the UK and if you look at how we trade in goods, we are particularly reliant on the Dover-Calais crossing.” Imagine saying that out loud as a secretary of state, then beetling off to insult some underling for failing to pander to one of your Microsoft Word idiosyncrasies. Ditto Raab’s failure to read the 32-page Good Friday agreement. Raab eventually resigned as Brexit secretary because he couldn’t support a deal he himself had negotiated. But honestly, mate, tell me again how all you demand from people are the same high professional standards to which you hold yourself.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/apr/21/dominic-raab-hardman-rishi-sunak-scandal

    What he said is absolutely reasonable.

    I have no idea what the actual percentage of trade via Dover is, but for example say it is 90%.

    If someone had asked me I would probably have guessed 75%.

    So I “haven’t appreciated to the full extent” how dependent we are on that route
    Exactly, this whole episode is just misinformation designed to undermine politicians in public discourse.

    It is actually seems like evidence that he read his briefing notes, etc....

    There are statements that reveal outrageous ignorance on the part of politicians but this wasn't one of them.
    Unfortunate in that case then that he showed some honesty about not knowing everything immediately but it sounded stupid. Politics can be unfair sometimes, but they also benefit from obfuscation at other times to cover ignorance so it evens out.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,652
    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    Hahaha. I read that brutal review of Jolyon Maugham’s book, the first line of which @BlancheLivermore quotes upthread



    Maugham has made the fatal error of responding angrily and tearfully on Twitter, thereby proving that he is hurt. Never respond to bad reviews. Tsk

    Lesson learned the hard way? By a friend of yours of course.
    It’s a lesson every journalist or author learns early on. Nothing unique to me. You just don’t do it. I’ve heard some hair raising examples of writers responding so badly to poor reviews they’ve
    jeopardised their careers

    And Maugham has done a particularly fine job by responding to the accusation that he is a pompous bloviator by…. Pompously bloviating

    Is that Raabesque or Doing a Raab?

  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,226
    edited April 2023
    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    Hahaha. I read that brutal review of Jolyon Maugham’s book, the first line of which @BlancheLivermore quotes upthread



    Maugham has made the fatal error of responding angrily and tearfully on Twitter, thereby proving that he is hurt. Never respond to bad reviews. Tsk

    Lesson learned the hard way? By a friend of yours of course.
    It’s a lesson every journalist or author learns early on. Nothing unique to me. You just don’t do it. I’ve heard some hair raising examples of writers responding so badly to poor reviews they’ve
    jeopardised their careers

    And Maugham has done a particularly fine job by responding to the accusation that he is a pompous bloviator by…. Pompously bloviating
    Which, in a way, takes us back to Raab. He may feel hard done-by having been sacked. (Though to be honest, it might be that the problem was that he wasn't stopped from acting like this much earlier. Cameron and May have got to take some blame there.) But the angry whingeing is unusual. Customary proceedure is to suck it up, buttercup. In fact, it's not easy to think of a sackee being so graceless, certainly before 2019- Norman Lamont ("in office, not in power") perhaps?

    Who does he think he is helping?
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,827

    The other thing that really surprises me is just how awful the government response has been to the relentless reports of raw sewage being poured into our rivers and seas. That may or may not have a Brexit element to it - I don't know - but it is allowing the narrative to build that it does. It's also incredibly damaging politically. Again down here in Sidders it is a massive topic of local conversation in the local paper and on message boards etc. It's also being highlighted in all the campaign leaflets we are getting. I can't help thinking it is an absolute gift for the LibDems, who won the by-election next door last year, of course. If I were Rishi I would add it to my pledges pronto and be seen to be doing something about it. It is a very Blue Wall issue.

    It is baffling. The Tories - having taken millions of donations last year alone - from polluters and climate change deniers - have set their brains up to basically not care about the environment.

    You would think that water companies regularly flushing human turds onto tourist beaches would be seen as a Bad Thing and stopped. Instead the response is first to ignore it and then to attack the people complaining.

    Yes, I know the Just Stop Oil wazzocks don't help with the politics of this, but what votes are to be gained from letting water companies pollute the beaches?
    They have no interest in this kind of thing. They didn't become politicians to offer us good sewage systems but to get to argue about economic and cultural ideology.

    Its the kind of reason why having a bit of sortition inside parliament would make a difference, normal people absolutely would care more about effective services.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,486
    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    Maugham is now being brutally mocked by J K Rowling. Enjoyable

    I do have quite a bit of sympathy. It is why my involvement in politics has always been as an activist and not a candidate. I don't think I could cope with flack, particularly the undeserved.

    Regarding the reviews of your books - If and when you get a bad one have you always had a thick skin or did you have to grow one? Do you get upset at all or is it just water off a ducks back? Interested to know.
    How would Leon know? His stalker Sean T might but then he’s never had a bad review for his outstanding books I believe.
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 4,587
    Leon said:

    Hahaha. I read that brutal review of Jolyon Maugham’s book, the first line of which @BlancheLivermore quotes upthread



    Maugham has made the fatal error of responding angrily and tearfully on Twitter, thereby proving that he is hurt. Never respond to bad reviews. Tsk

    The author of the review is a good follow on Twitter.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677
    kle4 said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Jonathan said:

    You do meet some characters out there.

    I met somebody who claimed to be third ever member of the SNP. I told him to vote Green as the SNP was founded in the 30s so he was obviously immortal and needed a sustainable ecosystem more than most.

    My seat on the parish council is uncontested now so I will be re-elected. I promised my opponent (Independent) a 'lively' campaign conducted almost entirely on social media, they didn't have the fortitude for that and dropped out. I have also been made Chair of the Finance Committee and my inaugural act was to disband it which sent everyone scurrying for the rule book.
    I would too, most committees are not capable of disbandment by whim of the chair, indeed most such roles chairs have no especial powers beyond a casting vote.
    I know that. I'm just trying to paralyze it until the coronation is over to stop them wasting money on flegs. It's like the West Wing but with more Voltarol and less/fewer Harvard educations.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,842

    J.K. Rowling
    @jk_rowling
    Dreadful news, which I feel duty bound to share. Activists in my mentions are trying to organise yet another boycott of my work, this time of the Harry Potter TV show. As forewarned is forearmed, I've taken the precaution of laying in a large stock of champagne.

    https://twitter.com/jk_rowling/status/1649474151977984006?s=20

    Have to appreciate the top tier trolling by JK Rowling here.

    That TV show is easily going to be the most viewed premium production around the world while it's running. It's a shame that we're going to be stuck with watching it on Sky or NowTV which won't have it in proper 4K.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,340
    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    Maugham is now being brutally mocked by J K Rowling. Enjoyable

    I do have quite a bit of sympathy. It is why my involvement in politics has always been as an activist and not a candidate. I don't think I could cope with flack, particularly the undeserved.

    Regarding the reviews of your books - If and when you get a bad one have you always had a thick skin or did you have to grow one? Do you get upset at all or is it just water off a ducks back? Interested to know.
    I think my very first review was really quite bad. And I realised immediately that you have to shrug and move on. And never respond personally

    However I did once take sly, elaborate, anonymous revenge on one reviewer later in life. But I certainly didn’t do it publicly. It’s an amusing story I can never tell
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,577
    Leon said:

    Maugham is now being brutally mocked by J K Rowling. Enjoyable

    Must be great to have earned so much money from writing, you can say whatever the fuck you want....
  • The other thing that really surprises me is just how awful the government response has been to the relentless reports of raw sewage being poured into our rivers and seas. That may or may not have a Brexit element to it - I don't know - but it is allowing the narrative to build that it does. It's also incredibly damaging politically. Again down here in Sidders it is a massive topic of local conversation in the local paper and on message boards etc. It's also being highlighted in all the campaign leaflets we are getting. I can't help thinking it is an absolute gift for the LibDems, who won the by-election next door last year, of course. If I were Rishi I would add it to my pledges pronto and be seen to be doing something about it. It is a very Blue Wall issue.

    It is baffling. The Tories - having taken millions of donations last year alone - from polluters and climate change deniers - have set their brains up to basically not care about the environment.

    You would think that water companies regularly flushing human turds onto tourist beaches would be seen as a Bad Thing and stopped. Instead the response is first to ignore it and then to attack the people complaining.

    Yes, I know the Just Stop Oil wazzocks don't help with the politics of this, but what votes are to be gained from letting water companies pollute the beaches?

    Not just the beaches - it's all very visible in the rivers too. It is ruining so many habitats. David Attenborough was all over it in his recent TV series - even in the programmes that did make it onto BBC1. It's such an obvious own goal - and it is the kind of local issue that is made for the LibDems, in particular. Like passport queues and empty shelves, people can see it with their own eyes. It may not be Brexit, but if people think it is then it is, if you see what I mean. I just can't believe the government can't see it.

    I could understand the government if their approach was "yes it is a problem, we are working on it". Same with shortages in supermarkets and queues at ports and the shrinking of companies willing to export to UK consumers.

    This isn't what was intended, we have a plan, why won't Labour back our plan - understandable.

    Instead we have denial. There is no problem. What turds? The queue is only caused by the weather. Buy something imported from a friendly country like China if the Germans don't want to.

    Followed by attack. The wokerati. The left wing metropolitan elite. Environmentalists who must support the Just Stop Oil wazzocks. Not an issue that patriotic people care about.

    You can only deny reality for so long.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,340
    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    Hahaha. I read that brutal review of Jolyon Maugham’s book, the first line of which @BlancheLivermore quotes upthread



    Maugham has made the fatal error of responding angrily and tearfully on Twitter, thereby proving that he is hurt. Never respond to bad reviews. Tsk

    Lesson learned the hard way? By a friend of yours of course.
    It’s a lesson every journalist or author learns early on. Nothing unique to me. You just don’t do it. I’ve heard some hair raising examples of writers responding so badly to poor reviews they’ve
    jeopardised their careers

    And Maugham has done a particularly fine job by responding to the accusation that he is a pompous bloviator by…. Pompously bloviating
    Reminds of Bercow blowing up and lashing out hysterically to prove how he never blows up or lashes out hysterically.

    Remember that historian of Russia who would leave negative Amazon reviews under rivals? So petty.
    Orlando Figes. And then he blamed his wife!

    The weird thing is that he is - by many accounts - a fine writer
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,103

    Dominic Raab: "Infamy, infamy, they've all got it infamy".

    You are so 1970s

    The people's verdict in Raab is in ... and they think it is good he is out:

    https://twitter.com/drjennings/status/1649680107097735168

    The basic problem he has is that anyone who has ever worked in an office, on a factory floor, on a construction site, in a shop, or anywhere else, knows a Raab.

    You dont know Raab so you cant make such judgements unless of course you want to smear him.
    There's just been a report on his behaviour which he has resigned about. There will be more to his story but people are absolutely entitled to make a judgement about him on the basis of the available information.

    It's not a smear when he literally resigned because of a report about his behaviour yesterday. That's like Corbynites claiming quoting him directly was smearing.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,340
    boulay said:

    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    Maugham is now being brutally mocked by J K Rowling. Enjoyable

    I do have quite a bit of sympathy. It is why my involvement in politics has always been as an activist and not a candidate. I don't think I could cope with flack, particularly the undeserved.

    Regarding the reviews of your books - If and when you get a bad one have you always had a thick skin or did you have to grow one? Do you get upset at all or is it just water off a ducks back? Interested to know.
    How would Leon know? His stalker Sean T might but then he’s never had a bad review for his outstanding books I believe.
    The world of flint dildo design critics is vicious and internecine
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,084
    Leon said:

    ChatGPT on “wet bulb temperatures”

    High wet bulb temperatures are particularly dangerous in combination with high ambient temperatures and high humidity,...

    So high wet bulb temperatures are particularly dangerous in combination with high wet bulb temperatures…

    Pretty good answer until that bit, if a bit prolix.
    What does it give you if you ask it to précis that answer ?
This discussion has been closed.