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Raab bows to the inevitable and quits before he faced the sack – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 11,707
edited April 2023 in General
Raab bows to the inevitable and quits before he faced the sack – politicalbetting.com

Dominic Raab has resigned to keep his promise to do so if Tolley made adverse findings against him, but he says Tolley’s judgement is flawed and the threshold for “bullying” has been set too low for proper ministerial oversight. This does not feel like a like drawn https://t.co/pf0mWBFY4L

Read the full story here

«1345678

Comments

  • Options
    SelebianSelebian Posts: 7,489
    edited April 2023
    'drawn' what?

    ETA: Ah, per Twitter thread: '“Line” not “like”'. Could Pesto not have managed to lose five characters from his original tweet to fit it all in one? Left us guessing, could have been so much more exciting: drawn weapon, drawn carriage, drawn face, drawn poison, drawn drawbridge.... What is a 'drawn like' anyway?

    E2TA: Oh - first? :smiley:
  • Options
    JACK_WJACK_W Posts: 651
    Deputy PM's not what they were ...
  • Options
    JACK_WJACK_W Posts: 651
    We don't even get a better class of bully theses days ...
  • Options
    DialupDialup Posts: 561
    Brexiteer revenge Raab says. The PM and all the cabinet are Brexiteers, will they ever accept responsibility for anything? The establishment IS Brexiteers!
  • Options
    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 33,212
    @IsabelHardman
    Sunak didn’t tell Raab to resign, I understand from No10 sources. Some Tory MPs I’ve spoken to this morning say this makes it an honourable resignation - others wondering if it makes the PM just a commentator at the side of his own govt.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,172
    Well at least he has more time in Esher and Walton trying to hold it from the LDs
  • Options
    SelebianSelebian Posts: 7,489
    Jonathan said:

    Are the rumours true that Raab is lined up for a new job at the CBI?

    Well they'd surely be looking for a new boss with impeccable credentials when it comes to dealing with staff :wink:
  • Options
    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,920
    JACK_W said:

    We don't even get a better class of bully theses days ...

    Remember for years you were one of the biggest cheerleaders on here for Speaker Bercow... ;)
  • Options
    Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 7,595
    FPT:
    Any moment now I expect to read how the rabid Remainers in the tofu-eating wokerati who have hegemony in the senior echelons of the Civil Service have brought down a decent, honourable man.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,844
    (FPT)
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Nigelb said:

    US Taliban, contd.

    Today the Texas Senate passed a bill to force every public school classroom in the state to prominently display a copy of the Ten Commandments.

    They also passed a bill to set prayer and bible reading times during the school day.

    https://twitter.com/SawyerHackett/status/1649231594719248392

    Isn't this in breach of the US Constitution?

    The 1st Amendment states that "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."

    Whilst the 14th amendment states that all constitutional laws applying to the Federal Government also apply to the State legislatures.

    This was upheld by Supreme Court decisions in 1947, 1962 (explicitly banning school prayers), 1968 (preventing the compulsory teaching of religious beliefs) and numerous other occasions resulting in the establishment of the 'Lemon' Test.
    Congress isn't making a law, the Texas legislature is.

    Texas is still overwhelmingly Christian and overwhelmingly Republican, after all it voted for Trump even in 2020 and has a Republican Governor, Republican US Senators, most of its US Representatives are Republican as are its state legislatures.

    I see no problem with this at all
    As I said in my OP, the 14th Amendment explicitly applies constitutional laws to the actions of State as well as Federal institutions. This has been upheld on numerous occasions by the Supreme Court.
    The 14th Amendment only states the states cannot deprive persons of personal liberty. It does not say schools in individual states cannot be mandated to display the 10 commandments.

    Given this new ultra conservative and Christian Supreme Court has struck down Roe v Wade and even allowed states to ban abortion, secular liberals are taking a big gamble saying the SC will strike down this new Texan law
    Educate yourself, HYUFD.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution
    ..The Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment imposes on the states the same limitations the First Amendment had always imposed on the Congress.[22] This "elementary proposition of law" was confirmed and endorsed time and time again in cases like Cantwell v. Connecticut, 310 U. S. 296, 303 (1940)[a] and Wooley v. Maynard (1977).[b][25] The central liberty that unifies the various clauses in the First Amendment is the individual's freedom of conscience:[26]..

    Though you have a point that nothing can be entirely ruled out with the current nutters on the bench.
  • Options
    noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 20,871

    FPT:
    Any moment now I expect to read how the rabid Remainers in the tofu-eating wokerati who have hegemony in the senior echelons of the Civil Service have brought down a decent, honourable man.

    Venison rather than tofu surely?
  • Options
    Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 13,791
    Scott_xP said:

    @IsabelHardman
    Sunak didn’t tell Raab to resign, I understand from No10 sources. Some Tory MPs I’ve spoken to this morning say this makes it an honourable resignation - others wondering if it makes the PM just a commentator at the side of his own govt.

    Yea, right. Sunak handed his friend the whisky bottle and the revolver. Only Sunak detractors will see it otherwise.
  • Options
    noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 20,871

    HYUFD said:

    Well at least he has more time in Esher and Walton trying to hold it from the LDs

    Why would Raab actually meeting his constituents be assumed to boost his re-election chances?
    His opponents might end up too scared to vote?
  • Options
    noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 20,871
    Jonathan said:

    Are the rumours true that Raab is lined up for a new job at the CBI?

    Head of the Met?
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,844

    FPT:
    Any moment now I expect to read how the rabid Remainers in the tofu-eating wokerati who have hegemony in the senior echelons of the Civil Service have brought down a decent, honourable man.

    Which minister would that be, and why are they about to resign ?
  • Options
    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,913
    Sunak's mentor was Richard Sharp, his closest political allies in his government are were Dominic Raab and Suella Braverman. With friends like these...
  • Options
    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,978
    Anyone lacking self-awareness to the extent that Raab clearly does should not be anywhere near government, let alone the Cabinet.
  • Options
    Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 13,791

    FPT:
    Any moment now I expect to read how the rabid Remainers in the tofu-eating wokerati who have hegemony in the senior echelons of the Civil Service have brought down a decent, honourable man.

    Venison rather than tofu surely?
    Oh, deer.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,844
    HYUFD said:

    Well at least he has more time in Esher and Walton trying to hold it from the LDs

    This will have got that campaign off to a flying start.
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,148
    Jonathan said:

    Are the rumours true that Raab is lined up for a new job at the CBI?

    P&O
  • Options
    Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 4,623
    Scott_xP said:

    @IsabelHardman
    Sunak didn’t tell Raab to resign, I understand from No10 sources. Some Tory MPs I’ve spoken to this morning say this makes it an honourable resignation - others wondering if it makes the PM just a commentator at the side of his own govt.

    Beyond the confines of the Tory Party , it doesn't reflect well on Sunak that he chose not to push Raab.
  • Options
    Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 13,791

    Anyone lacking self-awareness to the extent that Raab clearly does should not be anywhere near government, let alone the Cabinet.

    Gordon Brown became PM though?
  • Options
    numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 5,522
    It was an unforced error reappointing him in the first place.

    Opportunity now for Sunak to replace him with a communicator who can help put party on a GE footing. Given his previous record with government management I think he’ll fluff it, but that’s what he should do.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,172
    Nigelb said:

    (FPT)

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Nigelb said:

    US Taliban, contd.

    Today the Texas Senate passed a bill to force every public school classroom in the state to prominently display a copy of the Ten Commandments.

    They also passed a bill to set prayer and bible reading times during the school day.

    https://twitter.com/SawyerHackett/status/1649231594719248392

    Isn't this in breach of the US Constitution?

    The 1st Amendment states that "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."

    Whilst the 14th amendment states that all constitutional laws applying to the Federal Government also apply to the State legislatures.

    This was upheld by Supreme Court decisions in 1947, 1962 (explicitly banning school prayers), 1968 (preventing the compulsory teaching of religious beliefs) and numerous other occasions resulting in the establishment of the 'Lemon' Test.
    Congress isn't making a law, the Texas legislature is.

    Texas is still overwhelmingly Christian and overwhelmingly Republican, after all it voted for Trump even in 2020 and has a Republican Governor, Republican US Senators, most of its US Representatives are Republican as are its state legislatures.

    I see no problem with this at all
    As I said in my OP, the 14th Amendment explicitly applies constitutional laws to the actions of State as well as Federal institutions. This has been upheld on numerous occasions by the Supreme Court.
    The 14th Amendment only states the states cannot deprive persons of personal liberty. It does not say schools in individual states cannot be mandated to display the 10 commandments.

    Given this new ultra conservative and Christian Supreme Court has struck down Roe v Wade and even allowed states to ban abortion, secular liberals are taking a big gamble saying the SC will strike down this new Texan law
    Educate yourself, HYUFD.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution
    ..The Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment imposes on the states the same limitations the First Amendment had always imposed on the Congress.[22] This "elementary proposition of law" was confirmed and endorsed time and time again in cases like Cantwell v. Connecticut, 310 U. S. 296, 303 (1940)[a] and Wooley v. Maynard (1977).[b][25] The central liberty that unifies the various clauses in the First Amendment is the individual's freedom of conscience:[26]..

    Though you have a point that nothing can be entirely ruled out with the current nutters on the bench.
    So no quotes direct from the 14th amendment there and freedom of conscience can be interpreted to still allow display of Ten Commandments in schools especially given the much more conservative majority on the current US SC
  • Options
    AlistairMAlistairM Posts: 2,004
    Obviously not read the Raab report. However, if it is true that he didn't shout, swear or throw anything then it does raise interesting questions as to what constitutes bullying. Does making someone feel bad pass that threshold?

    I once had a boss (2 levels above me) who was renowned for giving very direct feedback, if people came in unprepared for meetings or who wasted his time. I knew many people who were very nervous in advance of their meetings with him. He did get results for the business and I believe he has been promoted a couple of times since. I learnt that if you came in fully prepared and could demonstrate you had left no stone unturned that there was nothing to be nervous of. Does the approach of radiating some level of fear to get results count as bullying?
  • Options
    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 27,020
    I hope Kemi Bandeoch is promoted in the reshuffle.
  • Options
    Andy_JS said:

    I hope Kemi Bandeoch is promoted in the reshuffle.

    Braverman demoted would be excellent
  • Options
    squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,378
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    numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 5,522

    Andy_JS said:

    I hope Kemi Bandeoch is promoted in the reshuffle.

    Braverman demoted would be excellent
    Won’t happen sadly.

    Personally I think Mordaunt (or Badenoch) need to be placed in the DPM role but certainly given Rishi’s treatment of Mordaunt at the reshuffle I can’t see that happening.
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,078

    Andy_JS said:

    I hope Kemi Bandeoch is promoted in the reshuffle.

    Braverman demoted would be excellent
    Sacked would be even better!
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,620
    AlistairM said:

    Obviously not read the Raab report. However, if it is true that he didn't shout, swear or throw anything then it does raise interesting questions as to what constitutes bullying. Does making someone feel bad pass that threshold?

    I once had a boss (2 levels above me) who was renowned for giving very direct feedback, if people came in unprepared for meetings or who wasted his time. I knew many people who were very nervous in advance of their meetings with him. He did get results for the business and I believe he has been promoted a couple of times since. I learnt that if you came in fully prepared and could demonstrate you had left no stone unturned that there was nothing to be nervous of. Does the approach of radiating some level of fear to get results count as bullying?

    I was told, in a seminar on management, that "calling people out" is considered abusive.

    That is, exposing/drawing attention to a subordinates failings, in front of others. Even worse is doing it in front of *their* subordinates.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,844
    edited April 2023
    HYUFD said:

    Nigelb said:

    (FPT)

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Nigelb said:

    US Taliban, contd.

    Today the Texas Senate passed a bill to force every public school classroom in the state to prominently display a copy of the Ten Commandments.

    They also passed a bill to set prayer and bible reading times during the school day.

    https://twitter.com/SawyerHackett/status/1649231594719248392

    Isn't this in breach of the US Constitution?

    The 1st Amendment states that "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."

    Whilst the 14th amendment states that all constitutional laws applying to the Federal Government also apply to the State legislatures.

    This was upheld by Supreme Court decisions in 1947, 1962 (explicitly banning school prayers), 1968 (preventing the compulsory teaching of religious beliefs) and numerous other occasions resulting in the establishment of the 'Lemon' Test.
    Congress isn't making a law, the Texas legislature is.

    Texas is still overwhelmingly Christian and overwhelmingly Republican, after all it voted for Trump even in 2020 and has a Republican Governor, Republican US Senators, most of its US Representatives are Republican as are its state legislatures.

    I see no problem with this at all
    As I said in my OP, the 14th Amendment explicitly applies constitutional laws to the actions of State as well as Federal institutions. This has been upheld on numerous occasions by the Supreme Court.
    The 14th Amendment only states the states cannot deprive persons of personal liberty. It does not say schools in individual states cannot be mandated to display the 10 commandments.

    Given this new ultra conservative and Christian Supreme Court has struck down Roe v Wade and even allowed states to ban abortion, secular liberals are taking a big gamble saying the SC will strike down this new Texan law
    Educate yourself, HYUFD.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution
    ..The Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment imposes on the states the same limitations the First Amendment had always imposed on the Congress.[22] This "elementary proposition of law" was confirmed and endorsed time and time again in cases like Cantwell v. Connecticut, 310 U. S. 296, 303 (1940)[a] and Wooley v. Maynard (1977).[b][25] The central liberty that unifies the various clauses in the First Amendment is the individual's freedom of conscience:[26]..

    Though you have a point that nothing can be entirely ruled out with the current nutters on the bench.
    So no quotes direct from the 14th amendment there and freedom of conscience can be interpreted to still allow display of Ten Commandments in schools especially given the much more conservative majority on the current US SC
    You clearly have no idea what you're talking about as far as the operation of US constitutional law is concerned, and seem determined to keep it that way, so I won't bother arguing the point.

    As far as the exercise of religion in schools is concerned, there is no bar on that. What is at issue is the state mandating the exercise of a particular religion.
  • Options
    DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 24,556
    ICYMI an interesting legal case was thrown out. Here is what the bookie's brief said on the chambers blog:-

    A Claimant who described himself as “a problem gambler” has lost his claim against Star Sports, a Mayfair bookmaker, for the return of betting losses incurred whilst he was in a “betting frenzy”.
    [ big snip]
    All cases are fact specific. However, the importance of this case lies in the restatement of the principle that in the context of a bookmaker’s relationship with a customer there exists, absent an assumption of responsibility, no tortious or contractual duty to prevent a customer from causing themselves economic loss.

    https://www.2harecourt.com/2023/04/14/claim-based-on-problem-gambling-dismissed/
  • Options
    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 27,020
    edited April 2023
    Techne UK poll:

    LAB: 44% (-1)
    CON: 31% (+1)
    LDEM: 10% (-)
    GRN: 5% (+1)

    https://twitter.com/BritainElects/status/1649303703705223168
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,844
    US supreme court to decide on abortion pill access after extending deadline
    Legal challenge to FDA approval of mifepristone could have implications for women’s reproductive health across the country
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/apr/21/supreme-court-abortion-pill-deadline
  • Options
    SelebianSelebian Posts: 7,489
    AlistairM said:

    Obviously not read the Raab report. However, if it is true that he didn't shout, swear or throw anything then it does raise interesting questions as to what constitutes bullying. Does making someone feel bad pass that threshold?

    I once had a boss (2 levels above me) who was renowned for giving very direct feedback, if people came in unprepared for meetings or who wasted his time. I knew many people who were very nervous in advance of their meetings with him. He did get results for the business and I believe he has been promoted a couple of times since. I learnt that if you came in fully prepared and could demonstrate you had left no stone unturned that there was nothing to be nervous of. Does the approach of radiating some level of fear to get results count as bullying?

    I think you cross the line when you blame others for your failings (or for failings beyond anyone's control) or - of course - if you get personal or humiliate someone without good reason.

    Good bosses may give you a good bollocking in private, but very rarely in front of others. They will also only blame you for things that were within your control.

    I've worked with mostly good bosses, some impatient or intimidating, but no bullies as line managers. My main PhD supervisor was a bully, but I learned to deal with him and he had limited options to get to me (as I wasn't a staff member and working on my project, not his - he couldn't sack or discipline me unless I did something demonstrably against university rules or failed to meet the PhD requirements, which were assessed by others and I demonstrably did meet). He definitely bullied some of his staff.
  • Options
    AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 20,159
    Andy_JS said:

    I hope Kemi Bandeoch is promoted in the reshuffle.

    Why?
  • Options
    DriverDriver Posts: 4,522

    Scott_xP said:

    @IsabelHardman
    Sunak didn’t tell Raab to resign, I understand from No10 sources. Some Tory MPs I’ve spoken to this morning say this makes it an honourable resignation - others wondering if it makes the PM just a commentator at the side of his own govt.

    Beyond the confines of the Tory Party , it doesn't reflect well on Sunak that he chose not to push Raab.
    There are ways of encouraging someone to resign without telling them to resign, though I would expect you and Scotty to always automatically think the worst of Sunak.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,565
    So we still don’t know what Raab DID. Weird


    On the subject of Thailand being a little toasty, I actually like the languor of serious heat. Tho 40C is pushing it….

    On the other hand I still prefer sun and heat to 7C and raining - as in London right now
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,950
    HYUFD said:

    Nigelb said:

    (FPT)

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Nigelb said:

    US Taliban, contd.

    Today the Texas Senate passed a bill to force every public school classroom in the state to prominently display a copy of the Ten Commandments.

    They also passed a bill to set prayer and bible reading times during the school day.

    https://twitter.com/SawyerHackett/status/1649231594719248392

    Isn't this in breach of the US Constitution?

    The 1st Amendment states that "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."

    Whilst the 14th amendment states that all constitutional laws applying to the Federal Government also apply to the State legislatures.

    This was upheld by Supreme Court decisions in 1947, 1962 (explicitly banning school prayers), 1968 (preventing the compulsory teaching of religious beliefs) and numerous other occasions resulting in the establishment of the 'Lemon' Test.
    Congress isn't making a law, the Texas legislature is.

    Texas is still overwhelmingly Christian and overwhelmingly Republican, after all it voted for Trump even in 2020 and has a Republican Governor, Republican US Senators, most of its US Representatives are Republican as are its state legislatures.

    I see no problem with this at all
    As I said in my OP, the 14th Amendment explicitly applies constitutional laws to the actions of State as well as Federal institutions. This has been upheld on numerous occasions by the Supreme Court.
    The 14th Amendment only states the states cannot deprive persons of personal liberty. It does not say schools in individual states cannot be mandated to display the 10 commandments.

    Given this new ultra conservative and Christian Supreme Court has struck down Roe v Wade and even allowed states to ban abortion, secular liberals are taking a big gamble saying the SC will strike down this new Texan law
    Educate yourself, HYUFD.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution
    ..The Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment imposes on the states the same limitations the First Amendment had always imposed on the Congress.[22] This "elementary proposition of law" was confirmed and endorsed time and time again in cases like Cantwell v. Connecticut, 310 U. S. 296, 303 (1940)[a] and Wooley v. Maynard (1977).[b][25] The central liberty that unifies the various clauses in the First Amendment is the individual's freedom of conscience:[26]..

    Though you have a point that nothing can be entirely ruled out with the current nutters on the bench.
    So no quotes direct from the 14th amendment there and freedom of conscience can be interpreted to still allow display of Ten Commandments in schools especially given the much more conservative majority on the current US SC
    Schools are allowed to put up religious posters, but it’s not allowed for the State to tell them they must. Freedom of speech and freedom of religion.
  • Options
    DriverDriver Posts: 4,522
    AlistairM said:

    Obviously not read the Raab report. However, if it is true that he didn't shout, swear or throw anything then it does raise interesting questions as to what constitutes bullying. Does making someone feel bad pass that threshold?

    It's 2023. Of course it does.

    The Leave/Remain thing is a red herring here - I suspect it's a generational clash.
  • Options
    TazTaz Posts: 11,332
    Jonathan said:

    Are the rumours true that Raab is lined up for a new job at the CBI?

    Talking of the CBI I noticed one of the guys there is called Brian McBride. Presumably not the former Fulham soccer star.

    The CBI appears to be in total need of reform. A second allegation of rape now although not aimed at anyone named publicly so far.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,172
    edited April 2023
    Sandpit said:

    HYUFD said:

    Nigelb said:

    (FPT)

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Nigelb said:

    US Taliban, contd.

    Today the Texas Senate passed a bill to force every public school classroom in the state to prominently display a copy of the Ten Commandments.

    They also passed a bill to set prayer and bible reading times during the school day.

    https://twitter.com/SawyerHackett/status/1649231594719248392

    Isn't this in breach of the US Constitution?

    The 1st Amendment states that "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."

    Whilst the 14th amendment states that all constitutional laws applying to the Federal Government also apply to the State legislatures.

    This was upheld by Supreme Court decisions in 1947, 1962 (explicitly banning school prayers), 1968 (preventing the compulsory teaching of religious beliefs) and numerous other occasions resulting in the establishment of the 'Lemon' Test.
    Congress isn't making a law, the Texas legislature is.

    Texas is still overwhelmingly Christian and overwhelmingly Republican, after all it voted for Trump even in 2020 and has a Republican Governor, Republican US Senators, most of its US Representatives are Republican as are its state legislatures.

    I see no problem with this at all
    As I said in my OP, the 14th Amendment explicitly applies constitutional laws to the actions of State as well as Federal institutions. This has been upheld on numerous occasions by the Supreme Court.
    The 14th Amendment only states the states cannot deprive persons of personal liberty. It does not say schools in individual states cannot be mandated to display the 10 commandments.

    Given this new ultra conservative and Christian Supreme Court has struck down Roe v Wade and even allowed states to ban abortion, secular liberals are taking a big gamble saying the SC will strike down this new Texan law
    Educate yourself, HYUFD.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution
    ..The Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment imposes on the states the same limitations the First Amendment had always imposed on the Congress.[22] This "elementary proposition of law" was confirmed and endorsed time and time again in cases like Cantwell v. Connecticut, 310 U. S. 296, 303 (1940)[a] and Wooley v. Maynard (1977).[b][25] The central liberty that unifies the various clauses in the First Amendment is the individual's freedom of conscience:[26]..

    Though you have a point that nothing can be entirely ruled out with the current nutters on the bench.
    So no quotes direct from the 14th amendment there and freedom of conscience can be interpreted to still allow display of Ten Commandments in schools especially given the much more conservative majority on the current US SC
    Schools are allowed to put up religious posters, but it’s not allowed for the State to tell them they must. Freedom of speech and freedom of religion.
    Depends how this US SC interprets the 14th amendment, there is no absolute constitutional bar to mandating religious posters in schools
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,844
    Leon said:

    So we still don’t know what Raab DID. Weird


    On the subject of Thailand being a little toasty, I actually like the languor of serious heat. Tho 40C is pushing it….

    Could be similar temperatures in Spain this month.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,620
    Driver said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @IsabelHardman
    Sunak didn’t tell Raab to resign, I understand from No10 sources. Some Tory MPs I’ve spoken to this morning say this makes it an honourable resignation - others wondering if it makes the PM just a commentator at the side of his own govt.

    Beyond the confines of the Tory Party , it doesn't reflect well on Sunak that he chose not to push Raab.
    There are ways of encouraging someone to resign without telling them to resign, though I would expect you and Scotty to always automatically think the worst of Sunak.
    "I'll announce my decision on Monday. Take the time to consider your position" would be the classic.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,565
    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    So we still don’t know what Raab DID. Weird


    On the subject of Thailand being a little toasty, I actually like the languor of serious heat. Tho 40C is pushing it….

    Could be similar temperatures in Spain this month.
    40C in Spain in April?!

    Jeeez. That would be a record surely
  • Options
    StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 14,596
    Jonathan said:

    Sunak's mentor was Richard Sharp, his closest political allies in his government are were Dominic Raab and Suella Braverman. With friends like these...

    That's three of Sunak's initial Cabinet picks who have had to go for being terrible people (Williamson, Zahawi and now Raab).

    If one is misfortune and two begins to look careless, what is three?
  • Options
    DriverDriver Posts: 4,522

    Driver said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @IsabelHardman
    Sunak didn’t tell Raab to resign, I understand from No10 sources. Some Tory MPs I’ve spoken to this morning say this makes it an honourable resignation - others wondering if it makes the PM just a commentator at the side of his own govt.

    Beyond the confines of the Tory Party , it doesn't reflect well on Sunak that he chose not to push Raab.
    There are ways of encouraging someone to resign without telling them to resign, though I would expect you and Scotty to always automatically think the worst of Sunak.
    "I'll announce my decision on Monday. Take the time to consider your position" would be the classic.
    Indeed. Or even just "tomorrow - sleep on it and see how you feel in the morning".

    Even in the social media era, the idea that a report produced mid afternoon one day that gets a result before midmorning the next day is a sign of dithering is absurd.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,844
    Selebian said:

    AlistairM said:

    Obviously not read the Raab report. However, if it is true that he didn't shout, swear or throw anything then it does raise interesting questions as to what constitutes bullying. Does making someone feel bad pass that threshold?

    I once had a boss (2 levels above me) who was renowned for giving very direct feedback, if people came in unprepared for meetings or who wasted his time. I knew many people who were very nervous in advance of their meetings with him. He did get results for the business and I believe he has been promoted a couple of times since. I learnt that if you came in fully prepared and could demonstrate you had left no stone unturned that there was nothing to be nervous of. Does the approach of radiating some level of fear to get results count as bullying?

    I think you cross the line when you blame others for your failings (or for failings beyond anyone's control) or - of course - if you get personal or humiliate someone without good reason.

    Good bosses may give you a good bollocking in private, but very rarely in front of others. They will also only blame you for things that were within your control.

    I've worked with mostly good bosses, some impatient or intimidating, but no bullies as line managers. My main PhD supervisor was a bully, but I learned to deal with him and he had limited options to get to me (as I wasn't a staff member and working on my project, not his - he couldn't sack or discipline me unless I did something demonstrably against university rules or failed to meet the PhD requirements, which were assessed by others and I demonstrably did meet). He definitely bullied some of his staff.
    Also, a boss losing their temper with someone isn't in itself bullying (though someone who can't control their anger is almost certainly a bad manager too).
    It's when there is a sustained pattern of such behaviour - and exacerbated if it's specific to targeted individuals.
  • Options
    bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,904
    Wonder if Sunak will appoint fellow Tory SKS?
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,844
    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    So we still don’t know what Raab DID. Weird


    On the subject of Thailand being a little toasty, I actually like the languor of serious heat. Tho 40C is pushing it….

    Could be similar temperatures in Spain this month.
    40C in Spain in April?!

    Jeeez. That would be a record surely
    Yes, it would.

    The peak is actually forecast a bit lower at 39C.
    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/apr/21/weather-tracker-heat-spain-could-smash-april-temperature-record
  • Options
    TresTres Posts: 2,250
    Driver said:

    Driver said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @IsabelHardman
    Sunak didn’t tell Raab to resign, I understand from No10 sources. Some Tory MPs I’ve spoken to this morning say this makes it an honourable resignation - others wondering if it makes the PM just a commentator at the side of his own govt.

    Beyond the confines of the Tory Party , it doesn't reflect well on Sunak that he chose not to push Raab.
    There are ways of encouraging someone to resign without telling them to resign, though I would expect you and Scotty to always automatically think the worst of Sunak.
    "I'll announce my decision on Monday. Take the time to consider your position" would be the classic.
    Indeed. Or even just "tomorrow - sleep on it and see how you feel in the morning".

    Even in the social media era, the idea that a report produced mid afternoon one day that gets a result before midmorning the next day is a sign of dithering is absurd.
    Downing Street had briefed they were going to make a decision yesterday, then didn't. That's perfectly fair to class as a dither.
  • Options
    Alphabet_SoupAlphabet_Soup Posts: 2,771
    Driver said:

    Driver said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @IsabelHardman
    Sunak didn’t tell Raab to resign, I understand from No10 sources. Some Tory MPs I’ve spoken to this morning say this makes it an honourable resignation - others wondering if it makes the PM just a commentator at the side of his own govt.

    Beyond the confines of the Tory Party , it doesn't reflect well on Sunak that he chose not to push Raab.
    There are ways of encouraging someone to resign without telling them to resign, though I would expect you and Scotty to always automatically think the worst of Sunak.
    "I'll announce my decision on Monday. Take the time to consider your position" would be the classic.
    Indeed. Or even just "tomorrow - sleep on it and see how you feel in the morning".

    Even in the social media era, the idea that a report produced mid afternoon one day that gets a result before midmorning the next day is a sign of dithering is absurd.
    If Raab had hung on until Sunday he could have scrawled his resignation in long hand datelined 'St George's Day' after the school of JRM.
  • Options
    eekeek Posts: 25,029

    Jonathan said:

    Sunak's mentor was Richard Sharp, his closest political allies in his government are were Dominic Raab and Suella Braverman. With friends like these...

    That's three of Sunak's initial Cabinet picks who have had to go for being terrible people (Williamson, Zahawi and now Raab).

    If one is misfortune and two begins to look careless, what is three?
    Making the best of whats available given the limited options available.

    Remember Bozo removed a lot of the best qualified candidates in 2019..
  • Options
    DriverDriver Posts: 4,522
    Tres said:

    Driver said:

    Driver said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @IsabelHardman
    Sunak didn’t tell Raab to resign, I understand from No10 sources. Some Tory MPs I’ve spoken to this morning say this makes it an honourable resignation - others wondering if it makes the PM just a commentator at the side of his own govt.

    Beyond the confines of the Tory Party , it doesn't reflect well on Sunak that he chose not to push Raab.
    There are ways of encouraging someone to resign without telling them to resign, though I would expect you and Scotty to always automatically think the worst of Sunak.
    "I'll announce my decision on Monday. Take the time to consider your position" would be the classic.
    Indeed. Or even just "tomorrow - sleep on it and see how you feel in the morning".

    Even in the social media era, the idea that a report produced mid afternoon one day that gets a result before midmorning the next day is a sign of dithering is absurd.
    Downing Street had briefed they were going to make a decision yesterday, then didn't. That's perfectly fair to class as a dither.
    Did they? I must have missed that, it certainly wasn't reported here.

    Also, it's unfair based on what we know to characterise the decision as not having been made by Sunak yesterday if the decision was to do as Malmesbury suggested (which seems to me pretty likely).
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,565
    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    So we still don’t know what Raab DID. Weird


    On the subject of Thailand being a little toasty, I actually like the languor of serious heat. Tho 40C is pushing it….

    Could be similar temperatures in Spain this month.
    40C in Spain in April?!

    Jeeez. That would be a record surely
    Yes, it would.

    The peak is actually forecast a bit lower at 39C.
    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/apr/21/weather-tracker-heat-spain-could-smash-april-temperature-record
    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    So we still don’t know what Raab DID. Weird


    On the subject of Thailand being a little toasty, I actually like the languor of serious heat. Tho 40C is pushing it….

    Could be similar temperatures in Spain this month.
    40C in Spain in April?!

    Jeeez. That would be a record surely
    Yes, it would.

    The peak is actually forecast a bit lower at 39C.
    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/apr/21/weather-tracker-heat-spain-could-smash-april-temperature-record
    If it hits 39C in April what might it do in July?

    Parts of Spain are becoming uninhabitable
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    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,913

    Wonder if Sunak will appoint fellow Tory SKS?

    You're the Tory fanboy,
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    GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,028
    Andy_JS said:

    I hope Kemi Bandeoch is promoted in the reshuffle.

    Fully expect this to be the first iteration of an election cabinet for Sunak - so expect Braverman to stay and Badenoch promotion to further signal anti-wokery and mobilise trans and migrant hate.
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    DriverDriver Posts: 4,522
    eek said:

    Jonathan said:

    Sunak's mentor was Richard Sharp, his closest political allies in his government are were Dominic Raab and Suella Braverman. With friends like these...

    That's three of Sunak's initial Cabinet picks who have had to go for being terrible people (Williamson, Zahawi and now Raab).

    If one is misfortune and two begins to look careless, what is three?
    Making the best of whats available given the limited options available.

    Remember Bozo removed a lot of the best qualified candidates in 2019..
    You mean, they removed themselves by their Commons votes to give the government's privileges in the House to Labour?
  • Options
    mickydroymickydroy Posts: 238

    Andy_JS said:

    I hope Kemi Bandeoch is promoted in the reshuffle.

    Why?
    In common with most of the current crop of Tories, she is totally out of her depth
  • Options
    Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 13,791
    mickydroy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    I hope Kemi Bandeoch is promoted in the reshuffle.

    Why?
    In common with most of the current crop of Tories, she is totally out of her depth
    What, unlike the extreme heavyweights on the Labour benches? Don't make me guffaw!
  • Options
    Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 13,791

    Wonder if Sunak will appoint fellow Tory SKS?

    He would be able to ask at every cabinet meeting "SKS, please explain"
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,844
    edited April 2023
    I look forward to revisiting this piece of unapologetic self-exculpation in the context of having read Tolley's report, when Sunak publishes it in full, as he has promised.
    ...Of course, this must be done within reasonable bounds. Mr Tolley concluded that I had not once, in four and a half years, sworn or shouted at anyone, let alone thrown anything or otherwise physically intimidated anyone, nor intentionally sought to belittle anyone. I am genuinely sorry for any unintended stress or offence that any officials felt, as a result of the pace, standards and challenge that I brought to the Ministry of Justice. That is, however, what the public expect of Ministers working on their behalf...

    EDIT

    Apparently it has just been published.
    Anyone got a link ?
  • Options
    Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 13,791
    Driver said:

    eek said:

    Jonathan said:

    Sunak's mentor was Richard Sharp, his closest political allies in his government are were Dominic Raab and Suella Braverman. With friends like these...

    That's three of Sunak's initial Cabinet picks who have had to go for being terrible people (Williamson, Zahawi and now Raab).

    If one is misfortune and two begins to look careless, what is three?
    Making the best of whats available given the limited options available.

    Remember Bozo removed a lot of the best qualified candidates in 2019..
    You mean, they removed themselves by their Commons votes to give the government's privileges in the House to Labour?
    Nope, they rebelled, just like the fat Clown did on numerous occasions and he hypocritically removed their whip after years of service. It was a disgrace, and a possible defining moment in the demise of the Conservative Party as a serious broad spectrum party of government.
  • Options
    GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,028
    Leon said:

    So we still don’t know what Raab DID. Weird


    On the subject of Thailand being a little toasty, I actually like the languor of serious heat. Tho 40C is pushing it….

    On the other hand I still prefer sun and heat to 7C and raining - as in London right now

    I think we'll find out soon.
  • Options
    Report now published
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    ChrisChris Posts: 11,141

    Jonathan said:

    Sunak's mentor was Richard Sharp, his closest political allies in his government are were Dominic Raab and Suella Braverman. With friends like these...

    That's three of Sunak's initial Cabinet picks who have had to go for being terrible people (Williamson, Zahawi and now Raab).

    If one is misfortune and two begins to look careless, what is three?
    A fully qualified Tory prime minister.
  • Options
    DriverDriver Posts: 4,522

    Driver said:

    eek said:

    Jonathan said:

    Sunak's mentor was Richard Sharp, his closest political allies in his government are were Dominic Raab and Suella Braverman. With friends like these...

    That's three of Sunak's initial Cabinet picks who have had to go for being terrible people (Williamson, Zahawi and now Raab).

    If one is misfortune and two begins to look careless, what is three?
    Making the best of whats available given the limited options available.

    Remember [Boris] removed a lot of the best qualified candidates in 2019..
    You mean, they removed themselves by their Commons votes to give the government's privileges in the House to Labour?
    Nope, they rebelled, just like [Boris] did on numerous occasions
    When did Boris vote to give Labour any of the Commons privileges of the government?
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,565
    Nigelb said:

    I look forward to revisiting this piece of unapologetic self-exculpation in the context of having read Tolley's report, when Sunak publishes it in full, as he has promised.
    ...Of course, this must be done within reasonable bounds. Mr Tolley concluded that I had not once, in four and a half years, sworn or shouted at anyone, let alone thrown anything or otherwise physically intimidated anyone, nor intentionally sought to belittle anyone. I am genuinely sorry for any unintended stress or offence that any officials felt, as a result of the pace, standards and challenge that I brought to the Ministry of Justice. That is, however, what the public expect of Ministers working on their behalf...

    But we need to see the report. Why the delay in publishing it?

    FWIW I believe these two things can both be true: Raab was abrasive and demanding AND bitter Remainers used that to fuck him over, as a leading Brexiteer
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,058
    Tres said:

    Driver said:

    Driver said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @IsabelHardman
    Sunak didn’t tell Raab to resign, I understand from No10 sources. Some Tory MPs I’ve spoken to this morning say this makes it an honourable resignation - others wondering if it makes the PM just a commentator at the side of his own govt.

    Beyond the confines of the Tory Party , it doesn't reflect well on Sunak that he chose not to push Raab.
    There are ways of encouraging someone to resign without telling them to resign, though I would expect you and Scotty to always automatically think the worst of Sunak.
    "I'll announce my decision on Monday. Take the time to consider your position" would be the classic.
    Indeed. Or even just "tomorrow - sleep on it and see how you feel in the morning".

    Even in the social media era, the idea that a report produced mid afternoon one day that gets a result before midmorning the next day is a sign of dithering is absurd.
    Downing Street had briefed they were going to make a decision yesterday, then didn't. That's perfectly fair to class as a dither.
    It was still just a day, people need to have some proportion. Like those Boris fanatics furious and seeing conspiracies that the committee on privileges didn't upload his submission immediately when submit at the end of the working day.
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,002
    What an undignified resignation letter
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,844
    edited April 2023
    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    I look forward to revisiting this piece of unapologetic self-exculpation in the context of having read Tolley's report, when Sunak publishes it in full, as he has promised.
    ...Of course, this must be done within reasonable bounds. Mr Tolley concluded that I had not once, in four and a half years, sworn or shouted at anyone, let alone thrown anything or otherwise physically intimidated anyone, nor intentionally sought to belittle anyone. I am genuinely sorry for any unintended stress or offence that any officials felt, as a result of the pace, standards and challenge that I brought to the Ministry of Justice. That is, however, what the public expect of Ministers working on their behalf...

    But we need to see the report. Why the delay in publishing it?

    FWIW I believe these two things can both be true: Raab was abrasive and demanding AND bitter Remainers used that to fuck him over, as a leading Brexiteer
    BBC reporting it's just been published.
    No link I can see yet.

    EDIT
    Here:
    https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/investigation-report-to-the-prime-minister
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,791
    Those are Truss-like numbers and we know how that ended!
  • Options
    Why did Raab wait until today to resign? Presumably he had sight of the report previously, under the maxwellisation process. If he knew that it was bad he should have resigned yesterday when it was released to Sunak?
  • Options
    Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 13,791
    Driver said:

    Driver said:

    eek said:

    Jonathan said:

    Sunak's mentor was Richard Sharp, his closest political allies in his government are were Dominic Raab and Suella Braverman. With friends like these...

    That's three of Sunak's initial Cabinet picks who have had to go for being terrible people (Williamson, Zahawi and now Raab).

    If one is misfortune and two begins to look careless, what is three?
    Making the best of whats available given the limited options available.

    Remember [Boris] removed a lot of the best qualified candidates in 2019..
    You mean, they removed themselves by their Commons votes to give the government's privileges in the House to Labour?
    Nope, they rebelled, just like [Boris] did on numerous occasions
    When did Boris vote to give Labour any of the Commons privileges of the government?
    He undermined two party leaders/PMs for nothing more than the advancement of his own ego. He will be seen by history as the worst Conservative PM of all time
  • Options
    Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 13,791
    Pulpstar said:

    What an undignified resignation letter

    Did you expect anything else from the man?
  • Options
    What's all the fuss about? There were accusations, an investigation found a couple of issues and Rabb was pushed/jumped. The biggest issue now is that he's going to get replaced by another Tory, when there's quite enough Tories hanging around as it is.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,844
    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    I look forward to revisiting this piece of unapologetic self-exculpation in the context of having read Tolley's report, when Sunak publishes it in full, as he has promised.
    ...Of course, this must be done within reasonable bounds. Mr Tolley concluded that I had not once, in four and a half years, sworn or shouted at anyone, let alone thrown anything or otherwise physically intimidated anyone, nor intentionally sought to belittle anyone. I am genuinely sorry for any unintended stress or offence that any officials felt, as a result of the pace, standards and challenge that I brought to the Ministry of Justice. That is, however, what the public expect of Ministers working on their behalf...

    But we need to see the report. Why the delay in publishing it?

    FWIW I believe these two things can both be true: Raab was abrasive and demanding AND bitter Remainers used that to fuck him over, as a leading Brexiteer
    BBC reporting it's just been published.
    No link I can see yet.

    EDIT
    Here:
    https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/investigation-report-to-the-prime-minister
    First qualification:
    ..This approach to confidentiality means that the report is not as factually detailed as it might otherwise have been; that is in my view the correct outcome. The public interest in maintaining the principle of confidentiality, in this instance and for future investigations of this nature, hugely outweighs any interest that anyone may have in the full extent of the factual detail...
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,565
    Pulpstar said:

    What an undignified resignation letter

    No it’s not. It’s articulate and cogent. He feels he has been unfairly targeted and the standard of “bullying” is being set so low it can be used to thwart ministers doing their jobs. How do you know he is wrong?

    Churchill was probably a bit of a bully. Action this day! Lots of fine politicians are bossy and pushy. It comes with the territory.

    We need to see the damn report
  • Options
    Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 13,791

    Why did Raab wait until today to resign? Presumably he had sight of the report previously, under the maxwellisation process. If he knew that it was bad he should have resigned yesterday when it was released to Sunak?

    Perhaps Sunak is hoping for the arrest of Sturgeon which might grab the headlines for the weekend?
  • Options
    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 27,020
    edited April 2023
    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    I look forward to revisiting this piece of unapologetic self-exculpation in the context of having read Tolley's report, when Sunak publishes it in full, as he has promised.
    ...Of course, this must be done within reasonable bounds. Mr Tolley concluded that I had not once, in four and a half years, sworn or shouted at anyone, let alone thrown anything or otherwise physically intimidated anyone, nor intentionally sought to belittle anyone. I am genuinely sorry for any unintended stress or offence that any officials felt, as a result of the pace, standards and challenge that I brought to the Ministry of Justice. That is, however, what the public expect of Ministers working on their behalf...

    But we need to see the report. Why the delay in publishing it?

    FWIW I believe these two things can both be true: Raab was abrasive and demanding AND bitter Remainers used that to fuck him over, as a leading Brexiteer
    BBC reporting it's just been published.
    No link I can see yet.

    EDIT
    Here:
    https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/investigation-report-to-the-prime-minister
    One of the complaints:

    "176. In summary, I have found as follows:
    (1) In relation to the DExEU Complaint:
    (a) The DPM’s conduct cannot be characterised as offensive, malicious or
    insulting. It was experienced as intimidating, in the sense of excessively
    demanding. I could not make a finding as to whether it was in fact
    intimidating in this sense. There was no evidence to suggest any abuse
    or misuse of power.
    (b) The DPM did not intend any adverse effect on others.
    (c) No-one drew to the DPM’s attention that his conduct was in any way
    problematic.
    (d) He did not know and could not reasonably have been aware of what is
    said to have been the impact of his conduct on certain individuals."
  • Options
    AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 20,159
    mickydroy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    I hope Kemi Bandeoch is promoted in the reshuffle.

    Why?
    In common with most of the current crop of Tories, she is totally out of her depth
    Yes, it's not clear to me why she attracts so much adulation from certain posters. Whenever I have seen her on the telly, she seems deeply unimpressive.
  • Options
    AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 20,159

    Wonder if Sunak will appoint fellow Tory SKS?

    He would be able to ask at every cabinet meeting "SKS, please explain"
    It would be somewhat unfair to do so if it was a question about a different portfolio
  • Options
    Sky extracts of the report makes it clear Raab had to go and shows his letter of resignation as crass
  • Options

    Why did Raab wait until today to resign? Presumably he had sight of the report previously, under the maxwellisation process. If he knew that it was bad he should have resigned yesterday when it was released to Sunak?

    Perhaps Sunak is hoping for the arrest of Sturgeon which might grab the headlines for the weekend?
    It's crazy isn't it? Not long ago, many people (me included) thought Sturgeon was a top quality politician. Now we know she's as bad, if not worse than the rest of them. What a shitshow our politics has become.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,058

    Why did Raab wait until today to resign? Presumably he had sight of the report previously, under the maxwellisation process. If he knew that it was bad he should have resigned yesterday when it was released to Sunak?

    Presumably despite his commitment previously he wanted a heads up from Sunak if the latter was going to enforce that commitment, or say "I'll beg you to stay on, so you don't have to go"
  • Options
    Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 13,791
    Leon said:

    Pulpstar said:

    What an undignified resignation letter

    No it’s not. It’s articulate and cogent. He feels he has been unfairly targeted and the standard of “bullying” is being set so low it can be used to thwart ministers doing their jobs. How do you know he is wrong?

    Churchill was probably a bit of a bully. Action this day! Lots of fine politicians are bossy and pushy. It comes with the territory.

    We need to see the damn report
    I partially agree, but times have changed. Most corporate companies have policies that prevent bullying, and it is not difficult to apply, and indeed is likely to enhance productivity.

    The problem with most politicians (of all stripes) is that they seem to believe that the standards expected of those in the mortal realm do not apply to their divine activities. There needs to be more done to remind them that the laws that they expect others to live with also apply to them.
  • Options
    Former client in Romania won't pay invoices (comfortably 5 figures) until tax residency certificate is sent. After 2 months of faff from HMRC - including them sending them to the wrong address - I finally sent the certificate to Romania via Royal Mail tracked and signed last week.

    3-5 business days.

    Website has the letter scanned out of Aberdeen bound for Heathrow a week ago, And then? Nothing! Customer service lady apologetic, said after a recent cyber attack their scanning system is not working. So they are selling tracking, but can't actually track!

    Said they don't get scan data from Romania anyway (despite selling it) so has no idea if it is in Romania or Heathrow but "should be". It isn't counted as lost for another month so they don't care...

    I obtained 2 copies of my tax residency certificate. At this rate I will be on Ryanair to Bucharest with that copy...
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,950
    Andy_JS said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    I look forward to revisiting this piece of unapologetic self-exculpation in the context of having read Tolley's report, when Sunak publishes it in full, as he has promised.
    ...Of course, this must be done within reasonable bounds. Mr Tolley concluded that I had not once, in four and a half years, sworn or shouted at anyone, let alone thrown anything or otherwise physically intimidated anyone, nor intentionally sought to belittle anyone. I am genuinely sorry for any unintended stress or offence that any officials felt, as a result of the pace, standards and challenge that I brought to the Ministry of Justice. That is, however, what the public expect of Ministers working on their behalf...

    But we need to see the report. Why the delay in publishing it?

    FWIW I believe these two things can both be true: Raab was abrasive and demanding AND bitter Remainers used that to fuck him over, as a leading Brexiteer
    BBC reporting it's just been published.
    No link I can see yet.

    EDIT
    Here:
    https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/investigation-report-to-the-prime-minister
    One of the complaints:

    "176. In summary, I have found as follows:
    (1) In relation to the DExEU Complaint:
    (a) The DPM’s conduct cannot be characterised as offensive, malicious or
    insulting. It was experienced as intimidating, in the sense of excessively
    demanding. I could not make a finding as to whether it was in fact
    intimidating in this sense. There was no evidence to suggest any abuse
    or misuse of power.
    (b) The DPM did not intend any adverse effect on others.
    (c) No-one drew to the DPM’s attention that his conduct was in any way
    problematic.
    (d) He did not know and could not reasonably have been aware of what is
    said to have been the impact of his conduct on certain individuals."
    The Deputy Prime Minister was excessively demanding of those paid to run his department. Who would ever have thought that?
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,058
    edited April 2023
    Leon said:

    Pulpstar said:

    What an undignified resignation letter

    No it’s not. It’s articulate and cogent. He feels he has been unfairly targeted and the standard of “bullying” is being set so low it can be used to thwart ministers doing their jobs. How do you know he is wrong?

    Churchill was probably a bit of a bully. Action this day! Lots of fine politicians are bossy and pushy. It comes with the territory.

    We need to see the damn report
    His point about challenging is a decent one, and not itself unreasonable, so it is key whether his perception the bar was set too low is shared by the general public. Its the "tough but not a dick" test, and the report may or may not pass it - that he has indeed resigned suggests he hasn't passed it.
  • Options
    Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 13,791

    Why did Raab wait until today to resign? Presumably he had sight of the report previously, under the maxwellisation process. If he knew that it was bad he should have resigned yesterday when it was released to Sunak?

    Perhaps Sunak is hoping for the arrest of Sturgeon which might grab the headlines for the weekend?
    It's crazy isn't it? Not long ago, many people (me included) thought Sturgeon was a top quality politician. Now we know she's as bad, if not worse than the rest of them. What a shitshow our politics has become.
    I think the majority of politicians are actually decent human beings, at least they are when they first enter politics. We also have to remember that she is still innocent until proven guilty, or until she gets an outstanding lawyer perhaps.
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    GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,028

    Pulpstar said:

    What an undignified resignation letter

    Did you expect anything else from the man?
    It's a bit pissy and snowflakey, but could be worse. Certainly nowhere near Spaffer's delusional je-ne-regrette-being-a-massive-twat resignation speech when he was finally binned.
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    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    I look forward to revisiting this piece of unapologetic self-exculpation in the context of having read Tolley's report, when Sunak publishes it in full, as he has promised.
    ...Of course, this must be done within reasonable bounds. Mr Tolley concluded that I had not once, in four and a half years, sworn or shouted at anyone, let alone thrown anything or otherwise physically intimidated anyone, nor intentionally sought to belittle anyone. I am genuinely sorry for any unintended stress or offence that any officials felt, as a result of the pace, standards and challenge that I brought to the Ministry of Justice. That is, however, what the public expect of Ministers working on their behalf...

    But we need to see the report. Why the delay in publishing it?

    FWIW I believe these two things can both be true: Raab was abrasive and demanding AND bitter Remainers used that to fuck him over, as a leading Brexiteer
    You love Brexit Britain so much you’re never fucking here.
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