I saw @kjh moaning about my plan - potentially - to move to Spain to take advantage of their digital nomad visa. Apparently this is hypocrisy as I voted for Leave. You what??
The scheme, as I understand it, is specifically for non EU citizens. So it’s actually a benefit of Brexit. Couldn’t do it if we were still inside the EU
But Spain is still inside the EU!
But if the UK was still in the EU I would still be an EU citizen so I could not take advantage of the scheme
However. The irony of you dragging us out of the EU then upping sticks to emigrate to an EU country doesn't seem to have registered.
It's not an irony, it's a "fuck you"
Subtle difference
This may surprise you but I didn’t actually bring in this new visa. The Spanish government did and offered it to all non EU nationals. I fail to see how this is me personally insulting PB
It’s gonna be fucking hilarious when we can sit in Malaga and laugh at the Remoaner expats who got EU residency and are paying 40% tax while us Leavers are also living in Spain and paying 15%
Apart from the large majority of those who voted for Brexit not being able to qualify for it, it sounds quite an attractive scheme.
The net effect for the rest of the UK will of course be negative, but I don't think you should let such a consideration bother you.
Once everyone else catches up with me and realises what I just realised then loads of countries will start leaving the EU, just so they can go back and live in the EU like before, but in a sunnier bit and paying tiny amounts of tax
It’s gonna be fucking hilarious when we can sit in Malaga and laugh at the Remoaner expats who got EU residency and are paying 40% tax while us Leavers are also living in Spain and paying 15%
Apart from the large majority of those who voted for Brexit not being able to qualify for it, it sounds quite an attractive scheme.
The net effect for the rest of the UK will of course be negative, but I don't think you should let such a consideration bother you.
Gracias. I already feel “half Spanish”. It’s weird
- firstly capacity: the EU for bullshit reasons have said that the UK can’t use the automated gates (unlike South Korea, Australia or the US for example). That massively reduces the available capacity - from 10-20 gates to, usually, 2-4 officers - The individual checks are marginally longer. The electronic check is the same as pre-Brexit but then the officer flips through every page of the passport and stamps. I’d guesstimate it’s about 30 seconds extra per passport - We share a queue with countries that are deemed high risk so their passport checks and officer discussions take longer
In the case of Dover it’s a combination of several factors: (i) holiday demand; (ii) bad weather delaying sailings; (iii) staff shortages/work to rule by French officers who are grumbling about pay & conditions; and (iv) the elongated time required - especially with coaches where school kids have to get off the coach to be checked rather than a single teacher being able to take the passports down as a single bundle.
So part of it is normal stuff, and part of it is the French being silly and petty. So it’s not Brexit per se, but…
As I see it, Brexit allows the French to be silly and petty, and the French have chosen to take that opportunity (they weren't forced to).
So people who are blaming Brexit for this are essentially saying that the French should be expected to be silly and petty, which is rather xenophobic.
It's not as if the French were slow to turn down an opportunity to be pains in the arse at borders when we were in the EU. Sure, it was more difficult. But the argument 'if only we would do everything the French want us to then we will be able to get through borders more quickly' seems to me to fall into a 'too high a price to pay' category.
Operation Stack has been extant since 1987 - so it’s not as if the French being French, hasn’t been happening every few months for decades!
Yes, stamping of passports takes a little extra time, but the major factors are the work-to-rule by the border staff, and the recent weather.
The thing is with nearly everything Brexit is that it is nearly always another issue, but Brexit tips it over the edge unnecessarily and then people say 'Ah but it isn't Brexit it is this'.
Yes there have been queues at ports before. I have been held up on the tunnel for hours twice before Brexit, so yes there will always be times when it falls apart because of something or other, but those times are made worse by Brexit and there will be times when before Brexit it was just coping and now it won't.
The same applies to the impact on businesses. The cry goes out that the company was probably going to collapse anyway, they were barely making any profit for this reason or that. But Brexit doesn't help if it tips them over the edge and of course this applies to the more successful companies as well. Yes they will carry on being profitable, but less so.
The exclamation that it is always another reason and not Brexit is often/usually not true, both contribute. If you eliminate Brexit, it might just be you get by regardless of the other disaster (weather, overbooking, working to rule, etc)
Of course there will be times that Brexit has nothing to do with it at all and Brexit gets blamed (that's life), but equally there are examples where Brexit is not just contributory but entirely the reason for a failure, so that cuts both ways.
Absolutely. And the other point to make is that unlike COVID and Ukraine, Brexit was entirely self-inflicted and unnecessary. It is the most egregious example of a government acting contrary to what was in the country’s best interests. The Tories should never be forgiven for it.
LOL if the majority in the country voted to leave who are you to tell them theyre wrong ?
The majority of the country now think they were wrong. Who are you to tell us that our opinions were set in stone back in 2016 ?
Oh really, are you that naive ?
The current polls simply reflect a long whine from remianers blaming everything they can think of on Brexit, often when it has nothing to do with it.
What is missing is the the long list of bad news from the EU which regularly occurred when we were in. We had a taste of that in the Covid fiasco when Van der Leyen demanded all our AZ jabs.
But currently were missing the £17 billion quid handed over in times of austerity, the keep Germany's lights on diktat on pool gas resources, the dont upset Putin schtick in Ukraine we would have been tied in with via EU foreign policies, lots more immigration, and all the daily low level bollocks which just pissed people off.
The news cycle to date has mostly been one way, the polls are simply reflecting that, throw in the reality of what we have missed out on and they wont be showing those results.
Well I can see your opinion is indeed set in stone.
'Long whine' is good. As though that would persuade anyone against their will.
My opinions not set in stone, there have been some uncomfortable adjustments as a result of Brexit but the country isnt falling apart because of it. Covid and Putin have had much bigger impacts.
And as for the whining, the vote was almost 7 years ago, I prefer to look forward rather than cling on to a non existent past, you and the League of European Empire Loyalists still have your chance to seek to rejoin Nirvana. Maybe you could advance some positive arguments next time,
How is "better off in than out" not a positive argument?
It would have been, if only the Remain campaign had bothered to make it.
We heard little else from them.
LOL. "Worse out than in", although mathematically equivalent to "better in than out", is very different emotionally. I seem to remember we've already had this discussion in recent days.
We have - and your 'point' hasn't got any better. It's inane. Staying in the EU was the status quo. Same old same old. You can't market this as the ticket to a thrilling new life.
"Vote Remain. Let's carry on as we are. It's gonna be a blast!"
C'mon.
What you can do is what was done - stress that leaving would make us poorer and weaker. Which has duly happened, hence the consensus it was a mistake.
The bit in bold says it all. The Remain campaign was negative and argued "worse out than in" not "better in than out" - if you admit as much, why are you disagreeing with me? We agree!
What would be better than trolling - which I have limited patience for these days as you know - is if you can provide a concrete example of a big positive uplifting argument for staying in the EU that the Remain campaign should have made but didn't.
Some actual examples of things that we benefited from by being in the EU. Not described as "we will/might lose this if we leave".
Such as? Come on let's have a sample 'campaigning sentence' ...
"Perhaps THE most excellent of the many excellent things about EU membership is ... Driver to complete"
Why are you asking me? I voted Leave not least because the Remain campaign didn't come up with any examples! Unless you're implying that there are no such examples?
A person who keeps claiming the Remain campaign missed a trick by not making positive arguments for EU membership really ought to be able to give at least one example of what they mean. If they can't one would have to conclude they are ... no, let's not pre-empt matters, let's not assume you can't do this until you've failed another couple of times.
I think that the Remain campaign was rather negative - the impression was basically don't vote leave because if you do we will be worse off. Now that may well be true (seems to be) but it was not a positive message, Perhaps focussing on opportunities for the youth of the nation to work and study abroad?
The issue was that both side told lies (or possibly said what they believed to be true). I think many leavers believed that a free trade agreement with the EU was the same as being in the single market, and its now abundantly clear that that is not the case.
For the most part Remainer lies turned out to be accurate predictions.
Not all, by a long shot. Immediate recession? Immediate budget? Huge surge in unemployment?
It would decimate the car industry, food supply insecurity would lead to price rises, holiday travel would be more difficult so seats would be rationed and prices would rise, on the other hand were lies that proved more accurate.
I could go on, but we have left, we are not going back so we need to make the best of a poor hand.
The car industry is struggling in other countries too. Food prices rises are mainly down to Ukraine (basic goods like flour and energy). Has there been rationing of seats for travel? Really?
The issue we have is covid and Ukraine has dwarfed other effects. For the man in the street its easy to assume its all down to brexit, especially as a lot of Remainers keep banging that drum.
In reality some things have been contributed to by Brexit.
Eurostar only 2/3 full to accommodate for passport checks according to Simon Calder. Ferry companies told to reduce ticket sales to reduce passenger numbers to reduce passport check delays over the summer.
You won, we left, we have sucked it up and we are not going back. But please don't bullshit us by saying Brexit is great, all the bad stuff is courtesy of other circumstances and is definitely, categorically not because of Brexit.
It’s gonna be fucking hilarious when we can sit in Malaga and laugh at the Remoaner expats who got EU residency and are paying 40% tax while us Leavers are also living in Spain and paying 15%
Apart from the large majority of those who voted for Brexit not being able to qualify for it, it sounds quite an attractive scheme.
The net effect for the rest of the UK will of course be negative, but I don't think you should let such a consideration bother you.
Gracias. I already feel “half Spanish”. It’s weird
How can PB "do" Brexit for the 1,473,299,267,867 time on such a lovely afternoon?
It's sad
and Trumps heading to the court in an hour or so
yet Brexit beats all
Brexit has caused more pain to more people than every other bad government policy probably in most of our lifetimes. It's no surprise that those who voted for it now want to forget about their ruinous decision (or in the case of a few pretend it was nothing to do with their vote)
I saw @kjh moaning about my plan - potentially - to move to Spain to take advantage of their digital nomad visa. Apparently this is hypocrisy as I voted for Leave. You what??
The scheme, as I understand it, is specifically for non EU citizens. So it’s actually a benefit of Brexit. Couldn’t do it if we were still inside the EU
But Spain is still inside the EU!
But if the UK was still in the EU I would still be an EU citizen so I could not take advantage of the scheme
However. The irony of you dragging us out of the EU then upping sticks to emigrate to an EU country doesn't seem to have registered.
- firstly capacity: the EU for bullshit reasons have said that the UK can’t use the automated gates (unlike South Korea, Australia or the US for example). That massively reduces the available capacity - from 10-20 gates to, usually, 2-4 officers - The individual checks are marginally longer. The electronic check is the same as pre-Brexit but then the officer flips through every page of the passport and stamps. I’d guesstimate it’s about 30 seconds extra per passport - We share a queue with countries that are deemed high risk so their passport checks and officer discussions take longer
In the case of Dover it’s a combination of several factors: (i) holiday demand; (ii) bad weather delaying sailings; (iii) staff shortages/work to rule by French officers who are grumbling about pay & conditions; and (iv) the elongated time required - especially with coaches where school kids have to get off the coach to be checked rather than a single teacher being able to take the passports down as a single bundle.
So part of it is normal stuff, and part of it is the French being silly and petty. So it’s not Brexit per se, but…
As I see it, Brexit allows the French to be silly and petty, and the French have chosen to take that opportunity (they weren't forced to).
So people who are blaming Brexit for this are essentially saying that the French should be expected to be silly and petty, which is rather xenophobic.
It's not as if the French were slow to turn down an opportunity to be pains in the arse at borders when we were in the EU. Sure, it was more difficult. But the argument 'if only we would do everything the French want us to then we will be able to get through borders more quickly' seems to me to fall into a 'too high a price to pay' category.
Operation Stack has been extant since 1987 - so it’s not as if the French being French, hasn’t been happening every few months for decades!
Yes, stamping of passports takes a little extra time, but the major factors are the work-to-rule by the border staff, and the recent weather.
The thing is with nearly everything Brexit is that it is nearly always another issue, but Brexit tips it over the edge unnecessarily and then people say 'Ah but it isn't Brexit it is this'.
Yes there have been queues at ports before. I have been held up on the tunnel for hours twice before Brexit, so yes there will always be times when it falls apart because of something or other, but those times are made worse by Brexit and there will be times when before Brexit it was just coping and now it won't.
The same applies to the impact on businesses. The cry goes out that the company was probably going to collapse anyway, they were barely making any profit for this reason or that. But Brexit doesn't help if it tips them over the edge and of course this applies to the more successful companies as well. Yes they will carry on being profitable, but less so.
The exclamation that it is always another reason and not Brexit is often/usually not true, both contribute. If you eliminate Brexit, it might just be you get by regardless of the other disaster (weather, overbooking, working to rule, etc)
Of course there will be times that Brexit has nothing to do with it at all and Brexit gets blamed (that's life), but equally there are examples where Brexit is not just contributory but entirely the reason for a failure, so that cuts both ways.
Absolutely. And the other point to make is that unlike COVID and Ukraine, Brexit was entirely self-inflicted and unnecessary. It is the most egregious example of a government acting contrary to what was in the country’s best interests. The Tories should never be forgiven for it.
LOL if the majority in the country voted to leave who are you to tell them theyre wrong ?
The majority of the country now think they were wrong. Who are you to tell us that our opinions were set in stone back in 2016 ?
Oh really, are you that naive ?
The current polls simply reflect a long whine from remianers blaming everything they can think of on Brexit, often when it has nothing to do with it.
What is missing is the the long list of bad news from the EU which regularly occurred when we were in. We had a taste of that in the Covid fiasco when Van der Leyen demanded all our AZ jabs.
But currently were missing the £17 billion quid handed over in times of austerity, the keep Germany's lights on diktat on pool gas resources, the dont upset Putin schtick in Ukraine we would have been tied in with via EU foreign policies, lots more immigration, and all the daily low level bollocks which just pissed people off.
The news cycle to date has mostly been one way, the polls are simply reflecting that, throw in the reality of what we have missed out on and they wont be showing those results.
Well I can see your opinion is indeed set in stone.
'Long whine' is good. As though that would persuade anyone against their will.
My opinions not set in stone, there have been some uncomfortable adjustments as a result of Brexit but the country isnt falling apart because of it. Covid and Putin have had much bigger impacts.
And as for the whining, the vote was almost 7 years ago, I prefer to look forward rather than cling on to a non existent past, you and the League of European Empire Loyalists still have your chance to seek to rejoin Nirvana. Maybe you could advance some positive arguments next time,
How is "better off in than out" not a positive argument?
It would have been, if only the Remain campaign had bothered to make it.
We heard little else from them.
LOL. "Worse out than in", although mathematically equivalent to "better in than out", is very different emotionally. I seem to remember we've already had this discussion in recent days.
We have - and your 'point' hasn't got any better. It's inane. Staying in the EU was the status quo. Same old same old. You can't market this as the ticket to a thrilling new life.
"Vote Remain. Let's carry on as we are. It's gonna be a blast!"
C'mon.
What you can do is what was done - stress that leaving would make us poorer and weaker. Which has duly happened, hence the consensus it was a mistake.
The bit in bold says it all. The Remain campaign was negative and argued "worse out than in" not "better in than out" - if you admit as much, why are you disagreeing with me? We agree!
What would be better than trolling - which I have limited patience for these days as you know - is if you can provide a concrete example of a big positive uplifting argument for staying in the EU that the Remain campaign should have made but didn't.
Some actual examples of things that we benefited from by being in the EU. Not described as "we will/might lose this if we leave".
Such as? Come on let's have a sample 'campaigning sentence' ...
"Perhaps THE most excellent of the many excellent things about EU membership is ... Driver to complete"
Why are you asking me? I voted Leave not least because the Remain campaign didn't come up with any examples! Unless you're implying that there are no such examples?
A person who keeps claiming the Remain campaign missed a trick by not making positive arguments for EU membership really ought to be able to give at least one example of what they mean. If they can't one would have to conclude they are ... no, let's not pre-empt matters, let's not assume you can't do this until you've failed another couple of times.
The problem went deeper than just the campaign. British European policy since Maastricht was focused on securing opt-outs and insulating ourselves from things we regarded as misguided, most notably the single currency. It's very difficult to run a positive campaign for a negative deal.
And yet they did. The incredibly positive core message of better in than out.
That's a lesser of two evils argument. Here's a quote from Cameron's final big speech before the referendum. It's hardly an inspiring rallying cry in favour of integration:
"I know Europe isn’t perfect. Believe me, I understand and I see those frustrations.
"I feel them myself.
"That’s why we negotiated and enhanced our special status.
"Out of the Euro.
"Keeping our borders.
"Not involved in ever-closer union."
Nonsense. It's a 'best of both worlds' argument. The pros without the cons. You know as well as I do there were big negative net votes to be had in arguing the merits of European political and monetary union to the great British public. So, you know, don't. It'd be idiotic (also misleading because this vision was not the plan) therefore take a pass on that. Instead put the pragmatic true and POSITIVE case of better off in than out. Utter tosh this notion of the Remain campaign not being boosterish enough. I sense it's Leaver gaslighting (and where it isn't it's genuine stupidity) so let's see if I have the discipline to make this my last post on the matter for at least a week.
- firstly capacity: the EU for bullshit reasons have said that the UK can’t use the automated gates (unlike South Korea, Australia or the US for example). That massively reduces the available capacity - from 10-20 gates to, usually, 2-4 officers - The individual checks are marginally longer. The electronic check is the same as pre-Brexit but then the officer flips through every page of the passport and stamps. I’d guesstimate it’s about 30 seconds extra per passport - We share a queue with countries that are deemed high risk so their passport checks and officer discussions take longer
In the case of Dover it’s a combination of several factors: (i) holiday demand; (ii) bad weather delaying sailings; (iii) staff shortages/work to rule by French officers who are grumbling about pay & conditions; and (iv) the elongated time required - especially with coaches where school kids have to get off the coach to be checked rather than a single teacher being able to take the passports down as a single bundle.
So part of it is normal stuff, and part of it is the French being silly and petty. So it’s not Brexit per se, but…
As I see it, Brexit allows the French to be silly and petty, and the French have chosen to take that opportunity (they weren't forced to).
So people who are blaming Brexit for this are essentially saying that the French should be expected to be silly and petty, which is rather xenophobic.
It's not as if the French were slow to turn down an opportunity to be pains in the arse at borders when we were in the EU. Sure, it was more difficult. But the argument 'if only we would do everything the French want us to then we will be able to get through borders more quickly' seems to me to fall into a 'too high a price to pay' category.
Operation Stack has been extant since 1987 - so it’s not as if the French being French, hasn’t been happening every few months for decades!
Yes, stamping of passports takes a little extra time, but the major factors are the work-to-rule by the border staff, and the recent weather.
The thing is with nearly everything Brexit is that it is nearly always another issue, but Brexit tips it over the edge unnecessarily and then people say 'Ah but it isn't Brexit it is this'.
Yes there have been queues at ports before. I have been held up on the tunnel for hours twice before Brexit, so yes there will always be times when it falls apart because of something or other, but those times are made worse by Brexit and there will be times when before Brexit it was just coping and now it won't.
The same applies to the impact on businesses. The cry goes out that the company was probably going to collapse anyway, they were barely making any profit for this reason or that. But Brexit doesn't help if it tips them over the edge and of course this applies to the more successful companies as well. Yes they will carry on being profitable, but less so.
The exclamation that it is always another reason and not Brexit is often/usually not true, both contribute. If you eliminate Brexit, it might just be you get by regardless of the other disaster (weather, overbooking, working to rule, etc)
Of course there will be times that Brexit has nothing to do with it at all and Brexit gets blamed (that's life), but equally there are examples where Brexit is not just contributory but entirely the reason for a failure, so that cuts both ways.
Absolutely. And the other point to make is that unlike COVID and Ukraine, Brexit was entirely self-inflicted and unnecessary. It is the most egregious example of a government acting contrary to what was in the country’s best interests. The Tories should never be forgiven for it.
LOL if the majority in the country voted to leave who are you to tell them theyre wrong ?
The majority of the country now think they were wrong. Who are you to tell us that our opinions were set in stone back in 2016 ?
Oh really, are you that naive ?
The current polls simply reflect a long whine from remianers blaming everything they can think of on Brexit, often when it has nothing to do with it.
What is missing is the the long list of bad news from the EU which regularly occurred when we were in. We had a taste of that in the Covid fiasco when Van der Leyen demanded all our AZ jabs.
But currently were missing the £17 billion quid handed over in times of austerity, the keep Germany's lights on diktat on pool gas resources, the dont upset Putin schtick in Ukraine we would have been tied in with via EU foreign policies, lots more immigration, and all the daily low level bollocks which just pissed people off.
The news cycle to date has mostly been one way, the polls are simply reflecting that, throw in the reality of what we have missed out on and they wont be showing those results.
Well I can see your opinion is indeed set in stone.
'Long whine' is good. As though that would persuade anyone against their will.
My opinions not set in stone, there have been some uncomfortable adjustments as a result of Brexit but the country isnt falling apart because of it. Covid and Putin have had much bigger impacts.
And as for the whining, the vote was almost 7 years ago, I prefer to look forward rather than cling on to a non existent past, you and the League of European Empire Loyalists still have your chance to seek to rejoin Nirvana. Maybe you could advance some positive arguments next time,
How is "better off in than out" not a positive argument?
It would have been, if only the Remain campaign had bothered to make it.
We heard little else from them.
LOL. "Worse out than in", although mathematically equivalent to "better in than out", is very different emotionally. I seem to remember we've already had this discussion in recent days.
We have - and your 'point' hasn't got any better. It's inane. Staying in the EU was the status quo. Same old same old. You can't market this as the ticket to a thrilling new life.
"Vote Remain. Let's carry on as we are. It's gonna be a blast!"
C'mon.
What you can do is what was done - stress that leaving would make us poorer and weaker. Which has duly happened, hence the consensus it was a mistake.
The bit in bold says it all. The Remain campaign was negative and argued "worse out than in" not "better in than out" - if you admit as much, why are you disagreeing with me? We agree!
What would be better than trolling - which I have limited patience for these days as you know - is if you can provide a concrete example of a big positive uplifting argument for staying in the EU that the Remain campaign should have made but didn't.
Some actual examples of things that we benefited from by being in the EU. Not described as "we will/might lose this if we leave".
Such as? Come on let's have a sample 'campaigning sentence' ...
"Perhaps THE most excellent of the many excellent things about EU membership is ... Driver to complete"
Why are you asking me? I voted Leave not least because the Remain campaign didn't come up with any examples! Unless you're implying that there are no such examples?
A person who keeps claiming the Remain campaign missed a trick by not making positive arguments for EU membership really ought to be able to give at least one example of what they mean. If they can't one would have to conclude they are ... no, let's not pre-empt matters, let's not assume you can't do this until you've failed another couple of times.
I think that the Remain campaign was rather negative - the impression was basically don't vote leave because if you do we will be worse off. Now that may well be true (seems to be) but it was not a positive message, Perhaps focussing on opportunities for the youth of the nation to work and study abroad?
The issue was that both side told lies (or possibly said what they believed to be true). I think many leavers believed that a free trade agreement with the EU was the same as being in the single market, and its now abundantly clear that that is not the case.
For the most part Remainer lies turned out to be accurate predictions.
Not all, by a long shot. Immediate recession? Immediate budget? Huge surge in unemployment?
It would decimate the car industry, food supply insecurity would lead to price rises, holiday travel would be more difficult so seats would be rationed and prices would rise, on the other hand were lies that proved more accurate.
I could go on, but we have left, we are not going back so we need to make the best of a poor hand.
The car industry is struggling in other countries too. Food prices rises are mainly down to Ukraine (basic goods like flour and energy). Has there been rationing of seats for travel? Really?
The issue we have is covid and Ukraine has dwarfed other effects. For the man in the street its easy to assume its all down to brexit, especially as a lot of Remainers keep banging that drum.
In reality some things have been contributed to by Brexit.
Eurostar only 2/3 full to accommodate for passport checks according to Simon Calder. Ferry companies told to reduce ticket sales to reduce passenger numbers to reduce passport check delays over the summer.
You won, we left, we have sucked it up and we are not going back. But please don't bullshit us by saying Brexit is great, all the bad stuff is courtesy of other circumstances and is definitely, categorically not because of Brexit.
What bad stuff? Thanks to our brilliant Brexit from the EU you can now go and live in the EU and pay barely any tax. And if you get bored of Spain you can go to Greece, Croatia or Portugal, which are offering similar visas
If we’d known about this eventual upside to Brexit - after Brexit you can will be able to move freely to the EU, BUT PAY MUCH LESS TAX then Leave would have won 70/30
If we had known that certain leavers would be leaving too, then sure that could have swayed it to 70/30.
I saw @kjh moaning about my plan - potentially - to move to Spain to take advantage of their digital nomad visa. Apparently this is hypocrisy as I voted for Leave. You what??
The scheme, as I understand it, is specifically for non EU citizens. So it’s actually a benefit of Brexit. Couldn’t do it if we were still inside the EU
But Spain is still inside the EU!
But if the UK was still in the EU I would still be an EU citizen so I could not take advantage of the scheme
However. The irony of you dragging us out of the EU then upping sticks to emigrate to an EU country doesn't seem to have registered.
It's not an irony, it's a "fuck you"
Subtle difference
This may surprise you but I didn’t actually bring in this new visa. The Spanish government did and offered it to all non EU nationals. I fail to see how this is me personally insulting PB
Well. Actually I do accept the ability for a small number of people to move to Spain for a tax break is a Brexit benefit.
- firstly capacity: the EU for bullshit reasons have said that the UK can’t use the automated gates (unlike South Korea, Australia or the US for example). That massively reduces the available capacity - from 10-20 gates to, usually, 2-4 officers - The individual checks are marginally longer. The electronic check is the same as pre-Brexit but then the officer flips through every page of the passport and stamps. I’d guesstimate it’s about 30 seconds extra per passport - We share a queue with countries that are deemed high risk so their passport checks and officer discussions take longer
In the case of Dover it’s a combination of several factors: (i) holiday demand; (ii) bad weather delaying sailings; (iii) staff shortages/work to rule by French officers who are grumbling about pay & conditions; and (iv) the elongated time required - especially with coaches where school kids have to get off the coach to be checked rather than a single teacher being able to take the passports down as a single bundle.
So part of it is normal stuff, and part of it is the French being silly and petty. So it’s not Brexit per se, but…
As I see it, Brexit allows the French to be silly and petty, and the French have chosen to take that opportunity (they weren't forced to).
So people who are blaming Brexit for this are essentially saying that the French should be expected to be silly and petty, which is rather xenophobic.
It's not as if the French were slow to turn down an opportunity to be pains in the arse at borders when we were in the EU. Sure, it was more difficult. But the argument 'if only we would do everything the French want us to then we will be able to get through borders more quickly' seems to me to fall into a 'too high a price to pay' category.
Operation Stack has been extant since 1987 - so it’s not as if the French being French, hasn’t been happening every few months for decades!
Yes, stamping of passports takes a little extra time, but the major factors are the work-to-rule by the border staff, and the recent weather.
The thing is with nearly everything Brexit is that it is nearly always another issue, but Brexit tips it over the edge unnecessarily and then people say 'Ah but it isn't Brexit it is this'.
Yes there have been queues at ports before. I have been held up on the tunnel for hours twice before Brexit, so yes there will always be times when it falls apart because of something or other, but those times are made worse by Brexit and there will be times when before Brexit it was just coping and now it won't.
The same applies to the impact on businesses. The cry goes out that the company was probably going to collapse anyway, they were barely making any profit for this reason or that. But Brexit doesn't help if it tips them over the edge and of course this applies to the more successful companies as well. Yes they will carry on being profitable, but less so.
The exclamation that it is always another reason and not Brexit is often/usually not true, both contribute. If you eliminate Brexit, it might just be you get by regardless of the other disaster (weather, overbooking, working to rule, etc)
Of course there will be times that Brexit has nothing to do with it at all and Brexit gets blamed (that's life), but equally there are examples where Brexit is not just contributory but entirely the reason for a failure, so that cuts both ways.
Absolutely. And the other point to make is that unlike COVID and Ukraine, Brexit was entirely self-inflicted and unnecessary. It is the most egregious example of a government acting contrary to what was in the country’s best interests. The Tories should never be forgiven for it.
LOL if the majority in the country voted to leave who are you to tell them theyre wrong ?
The majority of the country now think they were wrong. Who are you to tell us that our opinions were set in stone back in 2016 ?
Oh really, are you that naive ?
The current polls simply reflect a long whine from remianers blaming everything they can think of on Brexit, often when it has nothing to do with it.
What is missing is the the long list of bad news from the EU which regularly occurred when we were in. We had a taste of that in the Covid fiasco when Van der Leyen demanded all our AZ jabs.
But currently were missing the £17 billion quid handed over in times of austerity, the keep Germany's lights on diktat on pool gas resources, the dont upset Putin schtick in Ukraine we would have been tied in with via EU foreign policies, lots more immigration, and all the daily low level bollocks which just pissed people off.
The news cycle to date has mostly been one way, the polls are simply reflecting that, throw in the reality of what we have missed out on and they wont be showing those results.
Well I can see your opinion is indeed set in stone.
'Long whine' is good. As though that would persuade anyone against their will.
My opinions not set in stone, there have been some uncomfortable adjustments as a result of Brexit but the country isnt falling apart because of it. Covid and Putin have had much bigger impacts.
And as for the whining, the vote was almost 7 years ago, I prefer to look forward rather than cling on to a non existent past, you and the League of European Empire Loyalists still have your chance to seek to rejoin Nirvana. Maybe you could advance some positive arguments next time,
How is "better off in than out" not a positive argument?
It would have been, if only the Remain campaign had bothered to make it.
We heard little else from them.
LOL. "Worse out than in", although mathematically equivalent to "better in than out", is very different emotionally. I seem to remember we've already had this discussion in recent days.
We have - and your 'point' hasn't got any better. It's inane. Staying in the EU was the status quo. Same old same old. You can't market this as the ticket to a thrilling new life.
"Vote Remain. Let's carry on as we are. It's gonna be a blast!"
C'mon.
What you can do is what was done - stress that leaving would make us poorer and weaker. Which has duly happened, hence the consensus it was a mistake.
The bit in bold says it all. The Remain campaign was negative and argued "worse out than in" not "better in than out" - if you admit as much, why are you disagreeing with me? We agree!
What would be better than trolling - which I have limited patience for these days as you know - is if you can provide a concrete example of a big positive uplifting argument for staying in the EU that the Remain campaign should have made but didn't.
Some actual examples of things that we benefited from by being in the EU. Not described as "we will/might lose this if we leave".
Such as? Come on let's have a sample 'campaigning sentence' ...
"Perhaps THE most excellent of the many excellent things about EU membership is ... Driver to complete"
Why are you asking me? I voted Leave not least because the Remain campaign didn't come up with any examples! Unless you're implying that there are no such examples?
A person who keeps claiming the Remain campaign missed a trick by not making positive arguments for EU membership really ought to be able to give at least one example of what they mean. If they can't one would have to conclude they are ... no, let's not pre-empt matters, let's not assume you can't do this until you've failed another couple of times.
The problem went deeper than just the campaign. British European policy since Maastricht was focused on securing opt-outs and insulating ourselves from things we regarded as misguided, most notably the single currency. It's very difficult to run a positive campaign for a negative deal.
And yet they did. The incredibly positive core message of better in than out.
That's a lesser of two evils argument. Here's a quote from Cameron's final big speech before the referendum. It's hardly an inspiring rallying cry in favour of integration:
"I know Europe isn’t perfect. Believe me, I understand and I see those frustrations.
"I feel them myself.
"That’s why we negotiated and enhanced our special status.
"Out of the Euro.
"Keeping our borders.
"Not involved in ever-closer union."
Nonsense. It's a 'best of both worlds' argument. The pros without the cons. You know as well as I do there were big negative net votes to be had in arguing the merits of European political and monetary union to the great British public. So, you know, don't. It'd be idiotic - and also not the plan - so take a pass on that. Instead put the pragmatic true and POSITIVE case of better off in than out. Which was done. Utter tosh this stuff about the Remain campaign not being boosterish enough. In fact I sense it's Leaver gaslighting - and where it isn't it's genuine stupidity - so let's see if I have the discipline to make this my last post on the matter for at least a week.
I made a small SpreadEx bet on sterling in the wake of Sunak's deal, and it's been very profitable.
I can't decide whether I should let it run (I think Sterling is heading to 1.35 in the medium term), or close out half the position to bank some profits.
It might be somewhat simplistic - and puts me in the same camp as the zerohedge nutters, but I’ve come to the view relative real interest rate expectations are the main factor that accounts for currency movements.
I think you’re giving Sunak too much credit.
Well done on your bet, but don’t give up your day job to trade forex!
My spread bets on financial markets are very rare - maybe once every 18 months - but my success rate is very high.
- firstly capacity: the EU for bullshit reasons have said that the UK can’t use the automated gates (unlike South Korea, Australia or the US for example). That massively reduces the available capacity - from 10-20 gates to, usually, 2-4 officers - The individual checks are marginally longer. The electronic check is the same as pre-Brexit but then the officer flips through every page of the passport and stamps. I’d guesstimate it’s about 30 seconds extra per passport - We share a queue with countries that are deemed high risk so their passport checks and officer discussions take longer
In the case of Dover it’s a combination of several factors: (i) holiday demand; (ii) bad weather delaying sailings; (iii) staff shortages/work to rule by French officers who are grumbling about pay & conditions; and (iv) the elongated time required - especially with coaches where school kids have to get off the coach to be checked rather than a single teacher being able to take the passports down as a single bundle.
So part of it is normal stuff, and part of it is the French being silly and petty. So it’s not Brexit per se, but…
As I see it, Brexit allows the French to be silly and petty, and the French have chosen to take that opportunity (they weren't forced to).
So people who are blaming Brexit for this are essentially saying that the French should be expected to be silly and petty, which is rather xenophobic.
It's not as if the French were slow to turn down an opportunity to be pains in the arse at borders when we were in the EU. Sure, it was more difficult. But the argument 'if only we would do everything the French want us to then we will be able to get through borders more quickly' seems to me to fall into a 'too high a price to pay' category.
Operation Stack has been extant since 1987 - so it’s not as if the French being French, hasn’t been happening every few months for decades!
Yes, stamping of passports takes a little extra time, but the major factors are the work-to-rule by the border staff, and the recent weather.
The thing is with nearly everything Brexit is that it is nearly always another issue, but Brexit tips it over the edge unnecessarily and then people say 'Ah but it isn't Brexit it is this'.
Yes there have been queues at ports before. I have been held up on the tunnel for hours twice before Brexit, so yes there will always be times when it falls apart because of something or other, but those times are made worse by Brexit and there will be times when before Brexit it was just coping and now it won't.
The same applies to the impact on businesses. The cry goes out that the company was probably going to collapse anyway, they were barely making any profit for this reason or that. But Brexit doesn't help if it tips them over the edge and of course this applies to the more successful companies as well. Yes they will carry on being profitable, but less so.
The exclamation that it is always another reason and not Brexit is often/usually not true, both contribute. If you eliminate Brexit, it might just be you get by regardless of the other disaster (weather, overbooking, working to rule, etc)
Of course there will be times that Brexit has nothing to do with it at all and Brexit gets blamed (that's life), but equally there are examples where Brexit is not just contributory but entirely the reason for a failure, so that cuts both ways.
Absolutely. And the other point to make is that unlike COVID and Ukraine, Brexit was entirely self-inflicted and unnecessary. It is the most egregious example of a government acting contrary to what was in the country’s best interests. The Tories should never be forgiven for it.
LOL if the majority in the country voted to leave who are you to tell them theyre wrong ?
The majority of the country now think they were wrong. Who are you to tell us that our opinions were set in stone back in 2016 ?
Oh really, are you that naive ?
The current polls simply reflect a long whine from remianers blaming everything they can think of on Brexit, often when it has nothing to do with it.
What is missing is the the long list of bad news from the EU which regularly occurred when we were in. We had a taste of that in the Covid fiasco when Van der Leyen demanded all our AZ jabs.
But currently were missing the £17 billion quid handed over in times of austerity, the keep Germany's lights on diktat on pool gas resources, the dont upset Putin schtick in Ukraine we would have been tied in with via EU foreign policies, lots more immigration, and all the daily low level bollocks which just pissed people off.
The news cycle to date has mostly been one way, the polls are simply reflecting that, throw in the reality of what we have missed out on and they wont be showing those results.
Well I can see your opinion is indeed set in stone.
'Long whine' is good. As though that would persuade anyone against their will.
My opinions not set in stone, there have been some uncomfortable adjustments as a result of Brexit but the country isnt falling apart because of it. Covid and Putin have had much bigger impacts.
And as for the whining, the vote was almost 7 years ago, I prefer to look forward rather than cling on to a non existent past, you and the League of European Empire Loyalists still have your chance to seek to rejoin Nirvana. Maybe you could advance some positive arguments next time,
How is "better off in than out" not a positive argument?
It would have been, if only the Remain campaign had bothered to make it.
We heard little else from them.
LOL. "Worse out than in", although mathematically equivalent to "better in than out", is very different emotionally. I seem to remember we've already had this discussion in recent days.
We have - and your 'point' hasn't got any better. It's inane. Staying in the EU was the status quo. Same old same old. You can't market this as the ticket to a thrilling new life.
"Vote Remain. Let's carry on as we are. It's gonna be a blast!"
C'mon.
What you can do is what was done - stress that leaving would make us poorer and weaker. Which has duly happened, hence the consensus it was a mistake.
The bit in bold says it all. The Remain campaign was negative and argued "worse out than in" not "better in than out" - if you admit as much, why are you disagreeing with me? We agree!
What would be better than trolling - which I have limited patience for these days as you know - is if you can provide a concrete example of a big positive uplifting argument for staying in the EU that the Remain campaign should have made but didn't.
Some actual examples of things that we benefited from by being in the EU. Not described as "we will/might lose this if we leave".
Such as? Come on let's have a sample 'campaigning sentence' ...
"Perhaps THE most excellent of the many excellent things about EU membership is ... Driver to complete"
Why are you asking me? I voted Leave not least because the Remain campaign didn't come up with any examples! Unless you're implying that there are no such examples?
A person who keeps claiming the Remain campaign missed a trick by not making positive arguments for EU membership really ought to be able to give at least one example of what they mean. If they can't one would have to conclude they are ... no, let's not pre-empt matters, let's not assume you can't do this until you've failed another couple of times.
The problem went deeper than just the campaign. British European policy since Maastricht was focused on securing opt-outs and insulating ourselves from things we regarded as misguided, most notably the single currency. It's very difficult to run a positive campaign for a negative deal.
And yet they did. The incredibly positive core message of better in than out.
That's a lesser of two evils argument. Here's a quote from Cameron's final big speech before the referendum. It's hardly an inspiring rallying cry in favour of integration:
"I know Europe isn’t perfect. Believe me, I understand and I see those frustrations.
"I feel them myself.
"That’s why we negotiated and enhanced our special status.
"Out of the Euro.
"Keeping our borders.
"Not involved in ever-closer union."
Nonsense. It's a 'best of both worlds' argument. The pros without the cons. You know as well as I do there were big negative net votes to be had in arguing the merits of European political and monetary union to the great British public. So, you know, don't. It'd be idiotic - and also misleading because this vision was not the plan - so take a pass on that. Instead put the pragmatic true and POSITIVE case of better off in than out. Which was done. Utter tosh this stuff about the Remain campaign not being boosterish enough. In fact I sense it's Leaver gaslighting - and where it isn't it's genuine stupidity - so let's see if I have the discipline to make this my last post on the matter for at least a week.
If you're going to post such nonsense as the bits in bold, best that it is.
It's likely noise, but I thought that the SNP saying FU to Forbes was going to drive right-thinking right-wing Scots into the welcoming embrace of the Conservative and Unionist Party?
Once Scots realise they can now all go and live in the EU and pay 15% tax because we are out of the EU I imagine staying out of the EU and in the UK will gain in attraction
Remind me... How does Scotland work? Is it that the regional vote is the one that basically determines the number of seats each party has? (i.e. each party gets the Constituency seats it wins, then the regions top up to get the right numbers by the regional vote shares?)
If it's not that, it's something else really unobvious.
Long letter from EHRC to Badenoch on clarifying “sex” = “biological sex”
On balance, we believe that redefining ‘sex’ in EqA to mean biological sex would create rationalisations, simplifications, clarity and/or reductions in risk for maternity services, providers and users of other services, gay and lesbian associations, sports organisers and employers. It therefore merits further consideration.
The potential implications of this change should be carefully identified and considered, with due regard to the Public Sector Equality Duty and in particular any possible disadvantages for trans men and trans women.
The fact that there is even any need for a proposal to 'redefine' sex to mean, err, sex, shows how completely through the looking glass this has got.
The problem is the EA sometimes uses “sex” and “gender” as synonyms…..more innocent times….
You need to be very careful confusing the two: only the other day I sidled up to my wife and said "the kids are out, do you fancy heading upstairs for some gender", and she looked at me as if I was quite mad.
I'm told there's a concept of 'maintenance sex', where the woman consents to sex to help maintain the relationship.
So you could try 'Can I schedule some maintenance for Saturday night?'.
- firstly capacity: the EU for bullshit reasons have said that the UK can’t use the automated gates (unlike South Korea, Australia or the US for example). That massively reduces the available capacity - from 10-20 gates to, usually, 2-4 officers - The individual checks are marginally longer. The electronic check is the same as pre-Brexit but then the officer flips through every page of the passport and stamps. I’d guesstimate it’s about 30 seconds extra per passport - We share a queue with countries that are deemed high risk so their passport checks and officer discussions take longer
In the case of Dover it’s a combination of several factors: (i) holiday demand; (ii) bad weather delaying sailings; (iii) staff shortages/work to rule by French officers who are grumbling about pay & conditions; and (iv) the elongated time required - especially with coaches where school kids have to get off the coach to be checked rather than a single teacher being able to take the passports down as a single bundle.
So part of it is normal stuff, and part of it is the French being silly and petty. So it’s not Brexit per se, but…
As I see it, Brexit allows the French to be silly and petty, and the French have chosen to take that opportunity (they weren't forced to).
So people who are blaming Brexit for this are essentially saying that the French should be expected to be silly and petty, which is rather xenophobic.
It's not as if the French were slow to turn down an opportunity to be pains in the arse at borders when we were in the EU. Sure, it was more difficult. But the argument 'if only we would do everything the French want us to then we will be able to get through borders more quickly' seems to me to fall into a 'too high a price to pay' category.
Operation Stack has been extant since 1987 - so it’s not as if the French being French, hasn’t been happening every few months for decades!
Yes, stamping of passports takes a little extra time, but the major factors are the work-to-rule by the border staff, and the recent weather.
The thing is with nearly everything Brexit is that it is nearly always another issue, but Brexit tips it over the edge unnecessarily and then people say 'Ah but it isn't Brexit it is this'.
Yes there have been queues at ports before. I have been held up on the tunnel for hours twice before Brexit, so yes there will always be times when it falls apart because of something or other, but those times are made worse by Brexit and there will be times when before Brexit it was just coping and now it won't.
The same applies to the impact on businesses. The cry goes out that the company was probably going to collapse anyway, they were barely making any profit for this reason or that. But Brexit doesn't help if it tips them over the edge and of course this applies to the more successful companies as well. Yes they will carry on being profitable, but less so.
The exclamation that it is always another reason and not Brexit is often/usually not true, both contribute. If you eliminate Brexit, it might just be you get by regardless of the other disaster (weather, overbooking, working to rule, etc)
Of course there will be times that Brexit has nothing to do with it at all and Brexit gets blamed (that's life), but equally there are examples where Brexit is not just contributory but entirely the reason for a failure, so that cuts both ways.
Absolutely. And the other point to make is that unlike COVID and Ukraine, Brexit was entirely self-inflicted and unnecessary. It is the most egregious example of a government acting contrary to what was in the country’s best interests. The Tories should never be forgiven for it.
LOL if the majority in the country voted to leave who are you to tell them theyre wrong ?
The majority of the country now think they were wrong. Who are you to tell us that our opinions were set in stone back in 2016 ?
Oh really, are you that naive ?
The current polls simply reflect a long whine from remianers blaming everything they can think of on Brexit, often when it has nothing to do with it.
What is missing is the the long list of bad news from the EU which regularly occurred when we were in. We had a taste of that in the Covid fiasco when Van der Leyen demanded all our AZ jabs.
But currently were missing the £17 billion quid handed over in times of austerity, the keep Germany's lights on diktat on pool gas resources, the dont upset Putin schtick in Ukraine we would have been tied in with via EU foreign policies, lots more immigration, and all the daily low level bollocks which just pissed people off.
The news cycle to date has mostly been one way, the polls are simply reflecting that, throw in the reality of what we have missed out on and they wont be showing those results.
Well I can see your opinion is indeed set in stone.
'Long whine' is good. As though that would persuade anyone against their will.
My opinions not set in stone, there have been some uncomfortable adjustments as a result of Brexit but the country isnt falling apart because of it. Covid and Putin have had much bigger impacts.
And as for the whining, the vote was almost 7 years ago, I prefer to look forward rather than cling on to a non existent past, you and the League of European Empire Loyalists still have your chance to seek to rejoin Nirvana. Maybe you could advance some positive arguments next time,
How is "better off in than out" not a positive argument?
It would have been, if only the Remain campaign had bothered to make it.
We heard little else from them.
LOL. "Worse out than in", although mathematically equivalent to "better in than out", is very different emotionally. I seem to remember we've already had this discussion in recent days.
We have - and your 'point' hasn't got any better. It's inane. Staying in the EU was the status quo. Same old same old. You can't market this as the ticket to a thrilling new life.
"Vote Remain. Let's carry on as we are. It's gonna be a blast!"
C'mon.
What you can do is what was done - stress that leaving would make us poorer and weaker. Which has duly happened, hence the consensus it was a mistake.
The bit in bold says it all. The Remain campaign was negative and argued "worse out than in" not "better in than out" - if you admit as much, why are you disagreeing with me? We agree!
What would be better than trolling - which I have limited patience for these days as you know - is if you can provide a concrete example of a big positive uplifting argument for staying in the EU that the Remain campaign should have made but didn't.
Some actual examples of things that we benefited from by being in the EU. Not described as "we will/might lose this if we leave".
Such as? Come on let's have a sample 'campaigning sentence' ...
"Perhaps THE most excellent of the many excellent things about EU membership is ... Driver to complete"
Why are you asking me? I voted Leave not least because the Remain campaign didn't come up with any examples! Unless you're implying that there are no such examples?
A person who keeps claiming the Remain campaign missed a trick by not making positive arguments for EU membership really ought to be able to give at least one example of what they mean. If they can't one would have to conclude they are ... no, let's not pre-empt matters, let's not assume you can't do this until you've failed another couple of times.
I think that the Remain campaign was rather negative - the impression was basically don't vote leave because if you do we will be worse off. Now that may well be true (seems to be) but it was not a positive message, Perhaps focussing on opportunities for the youth of the nation to work and study abroad?
The issue was that both side told lies (or possibly said what they believed to be true). I think many leavers believed that a free trade agreement with the EU was the same as being in the single market, and its now abundantly clear that that is not the case.
For the most part Remainer lies turned out to be accurate predictions.
Not all, by a long shot. Immediate recession? Immediate budget? Huge surge in unemployment?
It would decimate the car industry, food supply insecurity would lead to price rises, holiday travel would be more difficult so seats would be rationed and prices would rise, on the other hand were lies that proved more accurate.
I could go on, but we have left, we are not going back so we need to make the best of a poor hand.
The car industry is struggling in other countries too. Food prices rises are mainly down to Ukraine (basic goods like flour and energy). Has there been rationing of seats for travel? Really?
The issue we have is covid and Ukraine has dwarfed other effects. For the man in the street its easy to assume its all down to brexit, especially as a lot of Remainers keep banging that drum.
In reality some things have been contributed to by Brexit.
Eurostar only 2/3 full to accommodate for passport checks according to Simon Calder. Ferry companies told to reduce ticket sales to reduce passenger numbers to reduce passport check delays over the summer.
You won, we left, we have sucked it up and we are not going back. But please don't bullshit us by saying Brexit is great, all the bad stuff is courtesy of other circumstances and is definitely, categorically not because of Brexit.
What bad stuff? Thanks to our brilliant Brexit from the EU you can now go and live in the EU and pay barely any tax. And if you get bored of Spain you can go to Greece, Croatia or Portugal, which are offering similar visas
It would be helpful if you could repost your citation for this revelation as I have been unable to locate it. Thanks in advance.
- firstly capacity: the EU for bullshit reasons have said that the UK can’t use the automated gates (unlike South Korea, Australia or the US for example). That massively reduces the available capacity - from 10-20 gates to, usually, 2-4 officers - The individual checks are marginally longer. The electronic check is the same as pre-Brexit but then the officer flips through every page of the passport and stamps. I’d guesstimate it’s about 30 seconds extra per passport - We share a queue with countries that are deemed high risk so their passport checks and officer discussions take longer
In the case of Dover it’s a combination of several factors: (i) holiday demand; (ii) bad weather delaying sailings; (iii) staff shortages/work to rule by French officers who are grumbling about pay & conditions; and (iv) the elongated time required - especially with coaches where school kids have to get off the coach to be checked rather than a single teacher being able to take the passports down as a single bundle.
So part of it is normal stuff, and part of it is the French being silly and petty. So it’s not Brexit per se, but…
As I see it, Brexit allows the French to be silly and petty, and the French have chosen to take that opportunity (they weren't forced to).
So people who are blaming Brexit for this are essentially saying that the French should be expected to be silly and petty, which is rather xenophobic.
It's not as if the French were slow to turn down an opportunity to be pains in the arse at borders when we were in the EU. Sure, it was more difficult. But the argument 'if only we would do everything the French want us to then we will be able to get through borders more quickly' seems to me to fall into a 'too high a price to pay' category.
Operation Stack has been extant since 1987 - so it’s not as if the French being French, hasn’t been happening every few months for decades!
Yes, stamping of passports takes a little extra time, but the major factors are the work-to-rule by the border staff, and the recent weather.
The thing is with nearly everything Brexit is that it is nearly always another issue, but Brexit tips it over the edge unnecessarily and then people say 'Ah but it isn't Brexit it is this'.
Yes there have been queues at ports before. I have been held up on the tunnel for hours twice before Brexit, so yes there will always be times when it falls apart because of something or other, but those times are made worse by Brexit and there will be times when before Brexit it was just coping and now it won't.
The same applies to the impact on businesses. The cry goes out that the company was probably going to collapse anyway, they were barely making any profit for this reason or that. But Brexit doesn't help if it tips them over the edge and of course this applies to the more successful companies as well. Yes they will carry on being profitable, but less so.
The exclamation that it is always another reason and not Brexit is often/usually not true, both contribute. If you eliminate Brexit, it might just be you get by regardless of the other disaster (weather, overbooking, working to rule, etc)
Of course there will be times that Brexit has nothing to do with it at all and Brexit gets blamed (that's life), but equally there are examples where Brexit is not just contributory but entirely the reason for a failure, so that cuts both ways.
Absolutely. And the other point to make is that unlike COVID and Ukraine, Brexit was entirely self-inflicted and unnecessary. It is the most egregious example of a government acting contrary to what was in the country’s best interests. The Tories should never be forgiven for it.
LOL if the majority in the country voted to leave who are you to tell them theyre wrong ?
The majority of the country now think they were wrong. Who are you to tell us that our opinions were set in stone back in 2016 ?
Oh really, are you that naive ?
The current polls simply reflect a long whine from remianers blaming everything they can think of on Brexit, often when it has nothing to do with it.
What is missing is the the long list of bad news from the EU which regularly occurred when we were in. We had a taste of that in the Covid fiasco when Van der Leyen demanded all our AZ jabs.
But currently were missing the £17 billion quid handed over in times of austerity, the keep Germany's lights on diktat on pool gas resources, the dont upset Putin schtick in Ukraine we would have been tied in with via EU foreign policies, lots more immigration, and all the daily low level bollocks which just pissed people off.
The news cycle to date has mostly been one way, the polls are simply reflecting that, throw in the reality of what we have missed out on and they wont be showing those results.
Well I can see your opinion is indeed set in stone.
'Long whine' is good. As though that would persuade anyone against their will.
My opinions not set in stone, there have been some uncomfortable adjustments as a result of Brexit but the country isnt falling apart because of it. Covid and Putin have had much bigger impacts.
And as for the whining, the vote was almost 7 years ago, I prefer to look forward rather than cling on to a non existent past, you and the League of European Empire Loyalists still have your chance to seek to rejoin Nirvana. Maybe you could advance some positive arguments next time,
How is "better off in than out" not a positive argument?
It would have been, if only the Remain campaign had bothered to make it.
We heard little else from them.
LOL. "Worse out than in", although mathematically equivalent to "better in than out", is very different emotionally. I seem to remember we've already had this discussion in recent days.
We have - and your 'point' hasn't got any better. It's inane. Staying in the EU was the status quo. Same old same old. You can't market this as the ticket to a thrilling new life.
"Vote Remain. Let's carry on as we are. It's gonna be a blast!"
C'mon.
What you can do is what was done - stress that leaving would make us poorer and weaker. Which has duly happened, hence the consensus it was a mistake.
The bit in bold says it all. The Remain campaign was negative and argued "worse out than in" not "better in than out" - if you admit as much, why are you disagreeing with me? We agree!
What would be better than trolling - which I have limited patience for these days as you know - is if you can provide a concrete example of a big positive uplifting argument for staying in the EU that the Remain campaign should have made but didn't.
Some actual examples of things that we benefited from by being in the EU. Not described as "we will/might lose this if we leave".
Such as? Come on let's have a sample 'campaigning sentence' ...
"Perhaps THE most excellent of the many excellent things about EU membership is ... Driver to complete"
Why are you asking me? I voted Leave not least because the Remain campaign didn't come up with any examples! Unless you're implying that there are no such examples?
A person who keeps claiming the Remain campaign missed a trick by not making positive arguments for EU membership really ought to be able to give at least one example of what they mean. If they can't one would have to conclude they are ... no, let's not pre-empt matters, let's not assume you can't do this until you've failed another couple of times.
The problem went deeper than just the campaign. British European policy since Maastricht was focused on securing opt-outs and insulating ourselves from things we regarded as misguided, most notably the single currency. It's very difficult to run a positive campaign for a negative deal.
And yet they did. The incredibly positive core message of better in than out.
That's a lesser of two evils argument. Here's a quote from Cameron's final big speech before the referendum. It's hardly an inspiring rallying cry in favour of integration:
"I know Europe isn’t perfect. Believe me, I understand and I see those frustrations.
"I feel them myself.
"That’s why we negotiated and enhanced our special status.
"Out of the Euro.
"Keeping our borders.
"Not involved in ever-closer union."
Nonsense. It's a 'best of both worlds' argument. The pros without the cons. You know as well as I do there were big negative net votes to be had in arguing the merits of European political and monetary union to the great British public. So, you know, don't. It'd be idiotic - and also misleading because this vision was not the plan - so take a pass on that. Instead put the pragmatic true and POSITIVE case of better off in than out. Which was done. Utter tosh this stuff about the Remain campaign not being boosterish enough. In fact I sense it's Leaver gaslighting - and where it isn't it's genuine stupidity - so let's see if I have the discipline to make this my last post on the matter for at least a week.
If you're going to post such nonsense as the bits in bold, best that it is.
Whilst you and I probably share some centre-right views on politics, I think it is a bit rich for anyone who still believes in the fairytale of Brexit to be dancing on the pinhead about how well or badly either side positioned their bullshit in 2016. It iss a bit silly seeing as anyone but a cretin can see that Brexit has been an absolute pointless waste of time that has not benefitted one single British person. Equally many of us have to accept that Brexit (pointless though it was) has happened and we have to move on.
That said I will still laugh at anyone who still believes in it though. Sorry!
That VD is wrong. It The set of non-Kingstonian inventors of the Venn Diagram is a null set. The pic should look like an egg cut in half. But in fairness it is not by the Maths Dept but, presumabluy, the marketing folkses.
A pedant speaks - actually the diagram is correct. A Venn diagram should always show areas of non overlap even if those are an empty set.
Oh, really? Thanks, didn't know that. Wasn't taught at my school ...
No me neither. Some other pedant pointed it out on the Internet quite recently.
How can PB "do" Brexit for the 1,473,299,267,867 time on such a lovely afternoon?
It's sad
and Trumps heading to the court in an hour or so
yet Brexit beats all
Brexit has caused more pain to more people than every other bad government policy probably in most of our lifetimes. It's no surprise that those who voted for it now want to forget about their ruinous decision (or in the case of a few pretend it was nothing to do with their vote)
How can PB "do" Brexit for the 1,473,299,267,867 time on such a lovely afternoon?
It's sad
and Trumps heading to the court in an hour or so
yet Brexit beats all
Brexit has caused more pain to more people than every other bad government policy probably in most of our lifetimes. It's no surprise that those who voted for it now want to forget about their ruinous decision (or in the case of a few pretend it was nothing to do with their vote)
Your regular reminder that most of us who voted for Brexit are happy to have done so and still feel we are better off out. Only, when we stop giving regular reminders, we are told that those who voted for it 'have gone very quiet' or get told to 'own it' or 'take the win'.
Asking for a friend, is it still SNP policy to use the next Westminster general election as a de facto independence referendum?
As the concept is without meaning in law, fact, or even politics the question does not arise. It is in the same category as legislating to stop climate change, or earthquakes, or to declare men to be women or women to be men by mere words...hang on a minute...I think I may have entered a parallel universe and I can't find the door
Remind me... How does Scotland work? Is it that the regional vote is the one that basically determines the number of seats each party has? (i.e. each party gets the Constituency seats it wins, then the regions top up to get the right numbers by the regional vote shares?)
If it's not that, it's something else really unobvious.
Pretty much, although with SNP constituency dominance in recent elections the regional members haven't been enough to bring it to proportion on the "second vote" (a term I really hate).
Once everyone else catches up with me and realises what I just realised then loads of countries will start leaving the EU, just so they can go back and live in the EU like before, but in a sunnier bit and paying tiny amounts of tax
Leon, you do know you can go to Portugal and pay 0%, right ? Just Google "NHR Portugal "
That VD is wrong. It The set of non-Kingstonian inventors of the Venn Diagram is a null set. The pic should look like an egg cut in half. But in fairness it is not by the Maths Dept but, presumabluy, the marketing folkses.
A pedant speaks - actually the diagram is correct. A Venn diagram should always show areas of non overlap even if those are an empty set.
Oh, really? Thanks, didn't know that. Wasn't taught at my school ...
No me neither. Some other pedant pointed it out on the Internet quite recently.
Sounds like bullshit to me. Then again, I only have GCSE Maths
Wow. Just finished a pretty tiring afternoon on the local adoption panel. Like most couples who come to most panels, two couples today were really good. But the third couple were awesome. Just awesome. It's been a good day.
That VD is wrong. It The set of non-Kingstonian inventors of the Venn Diagram is a null set. The pic should look like an egg cut in half. But in fairness it is not by the Maths Dept but, presumabluy, the marketing folkses.
A pedant speaks - actually the diagram is correct. A Venn diagram should always show areas of non overlap even if those are an empty set.
Oh, really? Thanks, didn't know that. Wasn't taught at my school ...
No me neither. Some other pedant pointed it out on the Internet quite recently.
Sounds like bullshit to me. Then again, I only have GCSE Maths
No it is right according to Wikipedia.
"In Venn diagrams, the curves are overlapped in every possible way, showing all possible relations between the sets. They are thus a special case of Euler diagrams, which do not necessarily show all relations."
- firstly capacity: the EU for bullshit reasons have said that the UK can’t use the automated gates (unlike South Korea, Australia or the US for example). That massively reduces the available capacity - from 10-20 gates to, usually, 2-4 officers - The individual checks are marginally longer. The electronic check is the same as pre-Brexit but then the officer flips through every page of the passport and stamps. I’d guesstimate it’s about 30 seconds extra per passport - We share a queue with countries that are deemed high risk so their passport checks and officer discussions take longer
In the case of Dover it’s a combination of several factors: (i) holiday demand; (ii) bad weather delaying sailings; (iii) staff shortages/work to rule by French officers who are grumbling about pay & conditions; and (iv) the elongated time required - especially with coaches where school kids have to get off the coach to be checked rather than a single teacher being able to take the passports down as a single bundle.
So part of it is normal stuff, and part of it is the French being silly and petty. So it’s not Brexit per se, but…
As I see it, Brexit allows the French to be silly and petty, and the French have chosen to take that opportunity (they weren't forced to).
So people who are blaming Brexit for this are essentially saying that the French should be expected to be silly and petty, which is rather xenophobic.
It's not as if the French were slow to turn down an opportunity to be pains in the arse at borders when we were in the EU. Sure, it was more difficult. But the argument 'if only we would do everything the French want us to then we will be able to get through borders more quickly' seems to me to fall into a 'too high a price to pay' category.
Operation Stack has been extant since 1987 - so it’s not as if the French being French, hasn’t been happening every few months for decades!
Yes, stamping of passports takes a little extra time, but the major factors are the work-to-rule by the border staff, and the recent weather.
The thing is with nearly everything Brexit is that it is nearly always another issue, but Brexit tips it over the edge unnecessarily and then people say 'Ah but it isn't Brexit it is this'.
Yes there have been queues at ports before. I have been held up on the tunnel for hours twice before Brexit, so yes there will always be times when it falls apart because of something or other, but those times are made worse by Brexit and there will be times when before Brexit it was just coping and now it won't.
The same applies to the impact on businesses. The cry goes out that the company was probably going to collapse anyway, they were barely making any profit for this reason or that. But Brexit doesn't help if it tips them over the edge and of course this applies to the more successful companies as well. Yes they will carry on being profitable, but less so.
The exclamation that it is always another reason and not Brexit is often/usually not true, both contribute. If you eliminate Brexit, it might just be you get by regardless of the other disaster (weather, overbooking, working to rule, etc)
Of course there will be times that Brexit has nothing to do with it at all and Brexit gets blamed (that's life), but equally there are examples where Brexit is not just contributory but entirely the reason for a failure, so that cuts both ways.
Absolutely. And the other point to make is that unlike COVID and Ukraine, Brexit was entirely self-inflicted and unnecessary. It is the most egregious example of a government acting contrary to what was in the country’s best interests. The Tories should never be forgiven for it.
LOL if the majority in the country voted to leave who are you to tell them theyre wrong ?
The majority of the country now think they were wrong. Who are you to tell us that our opinions were set in stone back in 2016 ?
Oh really, are you that naive ?
The current polls simply reflect a long whine from remianers blaming everything they can think of on Brexit, often when it has nothing to do with it.
What is missing is the the long list of bad news from the EU which regularly occurred when we were in. We had a taste of that in the Covid fiasco when Van der Leyen demanded all our AZ jabs.
But currently were missing the £17 billion quid handed over in times of austerity, the keep Germany's lights on diktat on pool gas resources, the dont upset Putin schtick in Ukraine we would have been tied in with via EU foreign policies, lots more immigration, and all the daily low level bollocks which just pissed people off.
The news cycle to date has mostly been one way, the polls are simply reflecting that, throw in the reality of what we have missed out on and they wont be showing those results.
Well I can see your opinion is indeed set in stone.
'Long whine' is good. As though that would persuade anyone against their will.
My opinions not set in stone, there have been some uncomfortable adjustments as a result of Brexit but the country isnt falling apart because of it. Covid and Putin have had much bigger impacts.
And as for the whining, the vote was almost 7 years ago, I prefer to look forward rather than cling on to a non existent past, you and the League of European Empire Loyalists still have your chance to seek to rejoin Nirvana. Maybe you could advance some positive arguments next time,
How is "better off in than out" not a positive argument?
It would have been, if only the Remain campaign had bothered to make it.
We heard little else from them.
LOL. "Worse out than in", although mathematically equivalent to "better in than out", is very different emotionally. I seem to remember we've already had this discussion in recent days.
We have - and your 'point' hasn't got any better. It's inane. Staying in the EU was the status quo. Same old same old. You can't market this as the ticket to a thrilling new life.
"Vote Remain. Let's carry on as we are. It's gonna be a blast!"
C'mon.
What you can do is what was done - stress that leaving would make us poorer and weaker. Which has duly happened, hence the consensus it was a mistake.
The bit in bold says it all. The Remain campaign was negative and argued "worse out than in" not "better in than out" - if you admit as much, why are you disagreeing with me? We agree!
What would be better than trolling - which I have limited patience for these days as you know - is if you can provide a concrete example of a big positive uplifting argument for staying in the EU that the Remain campaign should have made but didn't.
Some actual examples of things that we benefited from by being in the EU. Not described as "we will/might lose this if we leave".
Such as? Come on let's have a sample 'campaigning sentence' ...
"Perhaps THE most excellent of the many excellent things about EU membership is ... Driver to complete"
Why are you asking me? I voted Leave not least because the Remain campaign didn't come up with any examples! Unless you're implying that there are no such examples?
A person who keeps claiming the Remain campaign missed a trick by not making positive arguments for EU membership really ought to be able to give at least one example of what they mean. If they can't one would have to conclude they are ... no, let's not pre-empt matters, let's not assume you can't do this until you've failed another couple of times.
I think that the Remain campaign was rather negative - the impression was basically don't vote leave because if you do we will be worse off. Now that may well be true (seems to be) but it was not a positive message, Perhaps focussing on opportunities for the youth of the nation to work and study abroad?
The issue was that both side told lies (or possibly said what they believed to be true). I think many leavers believed that a free trade agreement with the EU was the same as being in the single market, and its now abundantly clear that that is not the case.
Well the youth of the nation voted Remain. But on the general 'positive v negative' point: (i) EU membership benefits us. We'll be worse off without it. (ii) EU membership benefits us. We are better off keeping it. These are exactly the same message. Neither is positive, neither is negative, both are the plain and simple truth.
An assertion that x benefits us is totally insufficient you actually have to give concrete examples of how it benefits
In relation to the EU yes it had benefits but those benefits were very unequally spread. If you were a manager wanting to employ min wage workers, a middle class home owner wanting a cheap au pair or plumber then sure you got benefits.
For half the country though they couldn't afford a plumber even at the cheaper prices but they did get increased pressure on housing and local services and more competition for low end jobs. I guess they got the benefit of not spending so long in a queue on their once a year trip to spain.
Yes the 'us' there doesn't mean every single citizen. But on the whole, on a 'greatest good for the greatest number' type of metric, EU membership was an economic and cultural plus for the UK. This is pretty much accepted, I think. There are some intelligent, well informed people who argue otherwise but not very many.
- firstly capacity: the EU for bullshit reasons have said that the UK can’t use the automated gates (unlike South Korea, Australia or the US for example). That massively reduces the available capacity - from 10-20 gates to, usually, 2-4 officers - The individual checks are marginally longer. The electronic check is the same as pre-Brexit but then the officer flips through every page of the passport and stamps. I’d guesstimate it’s about 30 seconds extra per passport - We share a queue with countries that are deemed high risk so their passport checks and officer discussions take longer
In the case of Dover it’s a combination of several factors: (i) holiday demand; (ii) bad weather delaying sailings; (iii) staff shortages/work to rule by French officers who are grumbling about pay & conditions; and (iv) the elongated time required - especially with coaches where school kids have to get off the coach to be checked rather than a single teacher being able to take the passports down as a single bundle.
So part of it is normal stuff, and part of it is the French being silly and petty. So it’s not Brexit per se, but…
As I see it, Brexit allows the French to be silly and petty, and the French have chosen to take that opportunity (they weren't forced to).
So people who are blaming Brexit for this are essentially saying that the French should be expected to be silly and petty, which is rather xenophobic.
It's not as if the French were slow to turn down an opportunity to be pains in the arse at borders when we were in the EU. Sure, it was more difficult. But the argument 'if only we would do everything the French want us to then we will be able to get through borders more quickly' seems to me to fall into a 'too high a price to pay' category.
Operation Stack has been extant since 1987 - so it’s not as if the French being French, hasn’t been happening every few months for decades!
Yes, stamping of passports takes a little extra time, but the major factors are the work-to-rule by the border staff, and the recent weather.
The thing is with nearly everything Brexit is that it is nearly always another issue, but Brexit tips it over the edge unnecessarily and then people say 'Ah but it isn't Brexit it is this'.
Yes there have been queues at ports before. I have been held up on the tunnel for hours twice before Brexit, so yes there will always be times when it falls apart because of something or other, but those times are made worse by Brexit and there will be times when before Brexit it was just coping and now it won't.
The same applies to the impact on businesses. The cry goes out that the company was probably going to collapse anyway, they were barely making any profit for this reason or that. But Brexit doesn't help if it tips them over the edge and of course this applies to the more successful companies as well. Yes they will carry on being profitable, but less so.
The exclamation that it is always another reason and not Brexit is often/usually not true, both contribute. If you eliminate Brexit, it might just be you get by regardless of the other disaster (weather, overbooking, working to rule, etc)
Of course there will be times that Brexit has nothing to do with it at all and Brexit gets blamed (that's life), but equally there are examples where Brexit is not just contributory but entirely the reason for a failure, so that cuts both ways.
Absolutely. And the other point to make is that unlike COVID and Ukraine, Brexit was entirely self-inflicted and unnecessary. It is the most egregious example of a government acting contrary to what was in the country’s best interests. The Tories should never be forgiven for it.
LOL if the majority in the country voted to leave who are you to tell them theyre wrong ?
The majority of the country now think they were wrong. Who are you to tell us that our opinions were set in stone back in 2016 ?
Oh really, are you that naive ?
The current polls simply reflect a long whine from remianers blaming everything they can think of on Brexit, often when it has nothing to do with it.
What is missing is the the long list of bad news from the EU which regularly occurred when we were in. We had a taste of that in the Covid fiasco when Van der Leyen demanded all our AZ jabs.
But currently were missing the £17 billion quid handed over in times of austerity, the keep Germany's lights on diktat on pool gas resources, the dont upset Putin schtick in Ukraine we would have been tied in with via EU foreign policies, lots more immigration, and all the daily low level bollocks which just pissed people off.
The news cycle to date has mostly been one way, the polls are simply reflecting that, throw in the reality of what we have missed out on and they wont be showing those results.
Well I can see your opinion is indeed set in stone.
'Long whine' is good. As though that would persuade anyone against their will.
My opinions not set in stone, there have been some uncomfortable adjustments as a result of Brexit but the country isnt falling apart because of it. Covid and Putin have had much bigger impacts.
And as for the whining, the vote was almost 7 years ago, I prefer to look forward rather than cling on to a non existent past, you and the League of European Empire Loyalists still have your chance to seek to rejoin Nirvana. Maybe you could advance some positive arguments next time,
How is "better off in than out" not a positive argument?
It would have been, if only the Remain campaign had bothered to make it.
We heard little else from them.
LOL. "Worse out than in", although mathematically equivalent to "better in than out", is very different emotionally. I seem to remember we've already had this discussion in recent days.
We have - and your 'point' hasn't got any better. It's inane. Staying in the EU was the status quo. Same old same old. You can't market this as the ticket to a thrilling new life.
"Vote Remain. Let's carry on as we are. It's gonna be a blast!"
C'mon.
What you can do is what was done - stress that leaving would make us poorer and weaker. Which has duly happened, hence the consensus it was a mistake.
The bit in bold says it all. The Remain campaign was negative and argued "worse out than in" not "better in than out" - if you admit as much, why are you disagreeing with me? We agree!
What would be better than trolling - which I have limited patience for these days as you know - is if you can provide a concrete example of a big positive uplifting argument for staying in the EU that the Remain campaign should have made but didn't.
Some actual examples of things that we benefited from by being in the EU. Not described as "we will/might lose this if we leave".
Such as? Come on let's have a sample 'campaigning sentence' ...
"Perhaps THE most excellent of the many excellent things about EU membership is ... Driver to complete"
Why are you asking me? I voted Leave not least because the Remain campaign didn't come up with any examples! Unless you're implying that there are no such examples?
A person who keeps claiming the Remain campaign missed a trick by not making positive arguments for EU membership really ought to be able to give at least one example of what they mean. If they can't one would have to conclude they are ... no, let's not pre-empt matters, let's not assume you can't do this until you've failed another couple of times.
I think that the Remain campaign was rather negative - the impression was basically don't vote leave because if you do we will be worse off. Now that may well be true (seems to be) but it was not a positive message, Perhaps focussing on opportunities for the youth of the nation to work and study abroad?
The issue was that both side told lies (or possibly said what they believed to be true). I think many leavers believed that a free trade agreement with the EU was the same as being in the single market, and its now abundantly clear that that is not the case.
For the most part Remainer lies turned out to be accurate predictions.
Not all, by a long shot. Immediate recession? Immediate budget? Huge surge in unemployment?
It would decimate the car industry, food supply insecurity would lead to price rises, holiday travel would be more difficult so seats would be rationed and prices would rise, on the other hand were lies that proved more accurate.
I could go on, but we have left, we are not going back so we need to make the best of a poor hand.
The car industry is struggling in other countries too. Food prices rises are mainly down to Ukraine (basic goods like flour and energy). Has there been rationing of seats for travel? Really?
The issue we have is covid and Ukraine has dwarfed other effects. For the man in the street its easy to assume its all down to brexit, especially as a lot of Remainers keep banging that drum.
In reality some things have been contributed to by Brexit.
Eurostar only 2/3 full to accommodate for passport checks according to Simon Calder. Ferry companies told to reduce ticket sales to reduce passenger numbers to reduce passport check delays over the summer.
You won, we left, we have sucked it up and we are not going back. But please don't bullshit us by saying Brexit is great, all the bad stuff is courtesy of other circumstances and is definitely, categorically not because of Brexit.
What bad stuff? Thanks to our brilliant Brexit from the EU you can now go and live in the EU and pay barely any tax. And if you get bored of Spain you can go to Greece, Croatia or Portugal, which are offering similar visas
Don't be silly @Leon . You are wacky, but not stupid. The fact that you are desperately trying to find a benefit of Brexit that you quote this tiny marginal benefit to an astonishingly small number of people (if it is much of a benefit when fully evaluated) shows what a pile of horse shit Brexit is. It is like a once prosperous person wading whose house has been wrecked by a hurricane picking through the rubble and saying it wasn't that bad because he had just found a ten dollar bill that had blown over the garden fence.
Brexit was pointless. Dumb, stupid. You know it, but you cannot bring yourself to admit that as an intelligent person you were well and truly gulled. We have got over that we lost. You should get over that you were stupid.
- firstly capacity: the EU for bullshit reasons have said that the UK can’t use the automated gates (unlike South Korea, Australia or the US for example). That massively reduces the available capacity - from 10-20 gates to, usually, 2-4 officers - The individual checks are marginally longer. The electronic check is the same as pre-Brexit but then the officer flips through every page of the passport and stamps. I’d guesstimate it’s about 30 seconds extra per passport - We share a queue with countries that are deemed high risk so their passport checks and officer discussions take longer
In the case of Dover it’s a combination of several factors: (i) holiday demand; (ii) bad weather delaying sailings; (iii) staff shortages/work to rule by French officers who are grumbling about pay & conditions; and (iv) the elongated time required - especially with coaches where school kids have to get off the coach to be checked rather than a single teacher being able to take the passports down as a single bundle.
So part of it is normal stuff, and part of it is the French being silly and petty. So it’s not Brexit per se, but…
As I see it, Brexit allows the French to be silly and petty, and the French have chosen to take that opportunity (they weren't forced to).
So people who are blaming Brexit for this are essentially saying that the French should be expected to be silly and petty, which is rather xenophobic.
It's not as if the French were slow to turn down an opportunity to be pains in the arse at borders when we were in the EU. Sure, it was more difficult. But the argument 'if only we would do everything the French want us to then we will be able to get through borders more quickly' seems to me to fall into a 'too high a price to pay' category.
Operation Stack has been extant since 1987 - so it’s not as if the French being French, hasn’t been happening every few months for decades!
Yes, stamping of passports takes a little extra time, but the major factors are the work-to-rule by the border staff, and the recent weather.
The thing is with nearly everything Brexit is that it is nearly always another issue, but Brexit tips it over the edge unnecessarily and then people say 'Ah but it isn't Brexit it is this'.
Yes there have been queues at ports before. I have been held up on the tunnel for hours twice before Brexit, so yes there will always be times when it falls apart because of something or other, but those times are made worse by Brexit and there will be times when before Brexit it was just coping and now it won't.
The same applies to the impact on businesses. The cry goes out that the company was probably going to collapse anyway, they were barely making any profit for this reason or that. But Brexit doesn't help if it tips them over the edge and of course this applies to the more successful companies as well. Yes they will carry on being profitable, but less so.
The exclamation that it is always another reason and not Brexit is often/usually not true, both contribute. If you eliminate Brexit, it might just be you get by regardless of the other disaster (weather, overbooking, working to rule, etc)
Of course there will be times that Brexit has nothing to do with it at all and Brexit gets blamed (that's life), but equally there are examples where Brexit is not just contributory but entirely the reason for a failure, so that cuts both ways.
Absolutely. And the other point to make is that unlike COVID and Ukraine, Brexit was entirely self-inflicted and unnecessary. It is the most egregious example of a government acting contrary to what was in the country’s best interests. The Tories should never be forgiven for it.
LOL if the majority in the country voted to leave who are you to tell them theyre wrong ?
The majority of the country now think they were wrong. Who are you to tell us that our opinions were set in stone back in 2016 ?
Oh really, are you that naive ?
The current polls simply reflect a long whine from remianers blaming everything they can think of on Brexit, often when it has nothing to do with it.
What is missing is the the long list of bad news from the EU which regularly occurred when we were in. We had a taste of that in the Covid fiasco when Van der Leyen demanded all our AZ jabs.
But currently were missing the £17 billion quid handed over in times of austerity, the keep Germany's lights on diktat on pool gas resources, the dont upset Putin schtick in Ukraine we would have been tied in with via EU foreign policies, lots more immigration, and all the daily low level bollocks which just pissed people off.
The news cycle to date has mostly been one way, the polls are simply reflecting that, throw in the reality of what we have missed out on and they wont be showing those results.
Well I can see your opinion is indeed set in stone.
'Long whine' is good. As though that would persuade anyone against their will.
My opinions not set in stone, there have been some uncomfortable adjustments as a result of Brexit but the country isnt falling apart because of it. Covid and Putin have had much bigger impacts.
And as for the whining, the vote was almost 7 years ago, I prefer to look forward rather than cling on to a non existent past, you and the League of European Empire Loyalists still have your chance to seek to rejoin Nirvana. Maybe you could advance some positive arguments next time,
How is "better off in than out" not a positive argument?
It would have been, if only the Remain campaign had bothered to make it.
We heard little else from them.
LOL. "Worse out than in", although mathematically equivalent to "better in than out", is very different emotionally. I seem to remember we've already had this discussion in recent days.
We have - and your 'point' hasn't got any better. It's inane. Staying in the EU was the status quo. Same old same old. You can't market this as the ticket to a thrilling new life.
"Vote Remain. Let's carry on as we are. It's gonna be a blast!"
C'mon.
What you can do is what was done - stress that leaving would make us poorer and weaker. Which has duly happened, hence the consensus it was a mistake.
The bit in bold says it all. The Remain campaign was negative and argued "worse out than in" not "better in than out" - if you admit as much, why are you disagreeing with me? We agree!
What would be better than trolling - which I have limited patience for these days as you know - is if you can provide a concrete example of a big positive uplifting argument for staying in the EU that the Remain campaign should have made but didn't.
Some actual examples of things that we benefited from by being in the EU. Not described as "we will/might lose this if we leave".
Such as? Come on let's have a sample 'campaigning sentence' ...
"Perhaps THE most excellent of the many excellent things about EU membership is ... Driver to complete"
Why are you asking me? I voted Leave not least because the Remain campaign didn't come up with any examples! Unless you're implying that there are no such examples?
A person who keeps claiming the Remain campaign missed a trick by not making positive arguments for EU membership really ought to be able to give at least one example of what they mean. If they can't one would have to conclude they are ... no, let's not pre-empt matters, let's not assume you can't do this until you've failed another couple of times.
I think that the Remain campaign was rather negative - the impression was basically don't vote leave because if you do we will be worse off. Now that may well be true (seems to be) but it was not a positive message, Perhaps focussing on opportunities for the youth of the nation to work and study abroad?
The issue was that both side told lies (or possibly said what they believed to be true). I think many leavers believed that a free trade agreement with the EU was the same as being in the single market, and its now abundantly clear that that is not the case.
For the most part Remainer lies turned out to be accurate predictions.
Not all, by a long shot. Immediate recession? Immediate budget? Huge surge in unemployment?
There were loads of Remainer threats that did not come true
This was my favourite:
"Donald Tusk: Brexit could destroy Western political civilisation"
This was another failure of the Remain campaign. Insane rants like this made voters dismiss EVERY Remainer warning, when in fact some of them were perfectly valid, and have since been proven correct
My favourite was Stuart Rose, saying that a vote to leave will lead to unskilled wages going up.
Although that one did turn out to be true.
So much so that we are suffering the biggest real term wage cuts in living memory.
- firstly capacity: the EU for bullshit reasons have said that the UK can’t use the automated gates (unlike South Korea, Australia or the US for example). That massively reduces the available capacity - from 10-20 gates to, usually, 2-4 officers - The individual checks are marginally longer. The electronic check is the same as pre-Brexit but then the officer flips through every page of the passport and stamps. I’d guesstimate it’s about 30 seconds extra per passport - We share a queue with countries that are deemed high risk so their passport checks and officer discussions take longer
In the case of Dover it’s a combination of several factors: (i) holiday demand; (ii) bad weather delaying sailings; (iii) staff shortages/work to rule by French officers who are grumbling about pay & conditions; and (iv) the elongated time required - especially with coaches where school kids have to get off the coach to be checked rather than a single teacher being able to take the passports down as a single bundle.
So part of it is normal stuff, and part of it is the French being silly and petty. So it’s not Brexit per se, but…
As I see it, Brexit allows the French to be silly and petty, and the French have chosen to take that opportunity (they weren't forced to).
So people who are blaming Brexit for this are essentially saying that the French should be expected to be silly and petty, which is rather xenophobic.
It's not as if the French were slow to turn down an opportunity to be pains in the arse at borders when we were in the EU. Sure, it was more difficult. But the argument 'if only we would do everything the French want us to then we will be able to get through borders more quickly' seems to me to fall into a 'too high a price to pay' category.
Operation Stack has been extant since 1987 - so it’s not as if the French being French, hasn’t been happening every few months for decades!
Yes, stamping of passports takes a little extra time, but the major factors are the work-to-rule by the border staff, and the recent weather.
The thing is with nearly everything Brexit is that it is nearly always another issue, but Brexit tips it over the edge unnecessarily and then people say 'Ah but it isn't Brexit it is this'.
Yes there have been queues at ports before. I have been held up on the tunnel for hours twice before Brexit, so yes there will always be times when it falls apart because of something or other, but those times are made worse by Brexit and there will be times when before Brexit it was just coping and now it won't.
The same applies to the impact on businesses. The cry goes out that the company was probably going to collapse anyway, they were barely making any profit for this reason or that. But Brexit doesn't help if it tips them over the edge and of course this applies to the more successful companies as well. Yes they will carry on being profitable, but less so.
The exclamation that it is always another reason and not Brexit is often/usually not true, both contribute. If you eliminate Brexit, it might just be you get by regardless of the other disaster (weather, overbooking, working to rule, etc)
Of course there will be times that Brexit has nothing to do with it at all and Brexit gets blamed (that's life), but equally there are examples where Brexit is not just contributory but entirely the reason for a failure, so that cuts both ways.
Absolutely. And the other point to make is that unlike COVID and Ukraine, Brexit was entirely self-inflicted and unnecessary. It is the most egregious example of a government acting contrary to what was in the country’s best interests. The Tories should never be forgiven for it.
LOL if the majority in the country voted to leave who are you to tell them theyre wrong ?
The majority of the country now think they were wrong. Who are you to tell us that our opinions were set in stone back in 2016 ?
Oh really, are you that naive ?
The current polls simply reflect a long whine from remianers blaming everything they can think of on Brexit, often when it has nothing to do with it.
What is missing is the the long list of bad news from the EU which regularly occurred when we were in. We had a taste of that in the Covid fiasco when Van der Leyen demanded all our AZ jabs.
But currently were missing the £17 billion quid handed over in times of austerity, the keep Germany's lights on diktat on pool gas resources, the dont upset Putin schtick in Ukraine we would have been tied in with via EU foreign policies, lots more immigration, and all the daily low level bollocks which just pissed people off.
The news cycle to date has mostly been one way, the polls are simply reflecting that, throw in the reality of what we have missed out on and they wont be showing those results.
Well I can see your opinion is indeed set in stone.
'Long whine' is good. As though that would persuade anyone against their will.
My opinions not set in stone, there have been some uncomfortable adjustments as a result of Brexit but the country isnt falling apart because of it. Covid and Putin have had much bigger impacts.
And as for the whining, the vote was almost 7 years ago, I prefer to look forward rather than cling on to a non existent past, you and the League of European Empire Loyalists still have your chance to seek to rejoin Nirvana. Maybe you could advance some positive arguments next time,
How is "better off in than out" not a positive argument?
It would have been, if only the Remain campaign had bothered to make it.
We heard little else from them.
LOL. "Worse out than in", although mathematically equivalent to "better in than out", is very different emotionally. I seem to remember we've already had this discussion in recent days.
We have - and your 'point' hasn't got any better. It's inane. Staying in the EU was the status quo. Same old same old. You can't market this as the ticket to a thrilling new life.
"Vote Remain. Let's carry on as we are. It's gonna be a blast!"
C'mon.
What you can do is what was done - stress that leaving would make us poorer and weaker. Which has duly happened, hence the consensus it was a mistake.
The bit in bold says it all. The Remain campaign was negative and argued "worse out than in" not "better in than out" - if you admit as much, why are you disagreeing with me? We agree!
What would be better than trolling - which I have limited patience for these days as you know - is if you can provide a concrete example of a big positive uplifting argument for staying in the EU that the Remain campaign should have made but didn't.
Some actual examples of things that we benefited from by being in the EU. Not described as "we will/might lose this if we leave".
Such as? Come on let's have a sample 'campaigning sentence' ...
"Perhaps THE most excellent of the many excellent things about EU membership is ... Driver to complete"
Why are you asking me? I voted Leave not least because the Remain campaign didn't come up with any examples! Unless you're implying that there are no such examples?
A person who keeps claiming the Remain campaign missed a trick by not making positive arguments for EU membership really ought to be able to give at least one example of what they mean. If they can't one would have to conclude they are ... no, let's not pre-empt matters, let's not assume you can't do this until you've failed another couple of times.
I think that the Remain campaign was rather negative - the impression was basically don't vote leave because if you do we will be worse off. Now that may well be true (seems to be) but it was not a positive message, Perhaps focussing on opportunities for the youth of the nation to work and study abroad?
The issue was that both side told lies (or possibly said what they believed to be true). I think many leavers believed that a free trade agreement with the EU was the same as being in the single market, and its now abundantly clear that that is not the case.
For the most part Remainer lies turned out to be accurate predictions.
Not all, by a long shot. Immediate recession? Immediate budget? Huge surge in unemployment?
It would decimate the car industry, food supply insecurity would lead to price rises, holiday travel would be more difficult so seats would be rationed and prices would rise, on the other hand were lies that proved more accurate.
I could go on, but we have left, we are not going back so we need to make the best of a poor hand.
The car industry is struggling in other countries too. Food prices rises are mainly down to Ukraine (basic goods like flour and energy). Has there been rationing of seats for travel? Really?
The issue we have is covid and Ukraine has dwarfed other effects. For the man in the street its easy to assume its all down to brexit, especially as a lot of Remainers keep banging that drum.
In reality some things have been contributed to by Brexit.
Eurostar only 2/3 full to accommodate for passport checks according to Simon Calder. Ferry companies told to reduce ticket sales to reduce passenger numbers to reduce passport check delays over the summer.
You won, we left, we have sucked it up and we are not going back. But please don't bullshit us by saying Brexit is great, all the bad stuff is courtesy of other circumstances and is definitely, categorically not because of Brexit.
What bad stuff? Thanks to our brilliant Brexit from the EU you can now go and live in the EU and pay barely any tax. And if you get bored of Spain you can go to Greece, Croatia or Portugal, which are offering similar visas
Don't be silly @Leon . You are wacky, but not stupid. The fact that you are desperately trying to find a benefit of Brexit that you quote this tiny marginal benefit to an astonishingly small number of people (if it is much of a benefit when fully evaluated) shows what a pile of horse shit Brexit is. It is like a once prosperous person wading whose house has been wrecked by a hurricane picking through the rubble and saying it wasn't that bad because he had just found a ten dollar bill that had blown over the garden fence.
Brexit was pointless. Dumb, stupid. You know it, but you cannot bring yourself to admit that as an intelligent person you were well and truly gulled. We have got over that we lost. You should get over that you were stupid.
Trouble is that it takes incredible courage and integrity to admit that one has been conned, or got something sincerely wrong. It's part of the average heist story mechanism and why bad ideas in physics die out one professorial funeral at a time.
The surprise is that the "this was a mistake" sensation has set in as much as it has.
- firstly capacity: the EU for bullshit reasons have said that the UK can’t use the automated gates (unlike South Korea, Australia or the US for example). That massively reduces the available capacity - from 10-20 gates to, usually, 2-4 officers - The individual checks are marginally longer. The electronic check is the same as pre-Brexit but then the officer flips through every page of the passport and stamps. I’d guesstimate it’s about 30 seconds extra per passport - We share a queue with countries that are deemed high risk so their passport checks and officer discussions take longer
In the case of Dover it’s a combination of several factors: (i) holiday demand; (ii) bad weather delaying sailings; (iii) staff shortages/work to rule by French officers who are grumbling about pay & conditions; and (iv) the elongated time required - especially with coaches where school kids have to get off the coach to be checked rather than a single teacher being able to take the passports down as a single bundle.
So part of it is normal stuff, and part of it is the French being silly and petty. So it’s not Brexit per se, but…
As I see it, Brexit allows the French to be silly and petty, and the French have chosen to take that opportunity (they weren't forced to).
So people who are blaming Brexit for this are essentially saying that the French should be expected to be silly and petty, which is rather xenophobic.
It's not as if the French were slow to turn down an opportunity to be pains in the arse at borders when we were in the EU. Sure, it was more difficult. But the argument 'if only we would do everything the French want us to then we will be able to get through borders more quickly' seems to me to fall into a 'too high a price to pay' category.
Operation Stack has been extant since 1987 - so it’s not as if the French being French, hasn’t been happening every few months for decades!
Yes, stamping of passports takes a little extra time, but the major factors are the work-to-rule by the border staff, and the recent weather.
The thing is with nearly everything Brexit is that it is nearly always another issue, but Brexit tips it over the edge unnecessarily and then people say 'Ah but it isn't Brexit it is this'.
Yes there have been queues at ports before. I have been held up on the tunnel for hours twice before Brexit, so yes there will always be times when it falls apart because of something or other, but those times are made worse by Brexit and there will be times when before Brexit it was just coping and now it won't.
The same applies to the impact on businesses. The cry goes out that the company was probably going to collapse anyway, they were barely making any profit for this reason or that. But Brexit doesn't help if it tips them over the edge and of course this applies to the more successful companies as well. Yes they will carry on being profitable, but less so.
The exclamation that it is always another reason and not Brexit is often/usually not true, both contribute. If you eliminate Brexit, it might just be you get by regardless of the other disaster (weather, overbooking, working to rule, etc)
Of course there will be times that Brexit has nothing to do with it at all and Brexit gets blamed (that's life), but equally there are examples where Brexit is not just contributory but entirely the reason for a failure, so that cuts both ways.
Absolutely. And the other point to make is that unlike COVID and Ukraine, Brexit was entirely self-inflicted and unnecessary. It is the most egregious example of a government acting contrary to what was in the country’s best interests. The Tories should never be forgiven for it.
LOL if the majority in the country voted to leave who are you to tell them theyre wrong ?
The majority of the country now think they were wrong. Who are you to tell us that our opinions were set in stone back in 2016 ?
Oh really, are you that naive ?
The current polls simply reflect a long whine from remianers blaming everything they can think of on Brexit, often when it has nothing to do with it.
What is missing is the the long list of bad news from the EU which regularly occurred when we were in. We had a taste of that in the Covid fiasco when Van der Leyen demanded all our AZ jabs.
But currently were missing the £17 billion quid handed over in times of austerity, the keep Germany's lights on diktat on pool gas resources, the dont upset Putin schtick in Ukraine we would have been tied in with via EU foreign policies, lots more immigration, and all the daily low level bollocks which just pissed people off.
The news cycle to date has mostly been one way, the polls are simply reflecting that, throw in the reality of what we have missed out on and they wont be showing those results.
Well I can see your opinion is indeed set in stone.
'Long whine' is good. As though that would persuade anyone against their will.
My opinions not set in stone, there have been some uncomfortable adjustments as a result of Brexit but the country isnt falling apart because of it. Covid and Putin have had much bigger impacts.
And as for the whining, the vote was almost 7 years ago, I prefer to look forward rather than cling on to a non existent past, you and the League of European Empire Loyalists still have your chance to seek to rejoin Nirvana. Maybe you could advance some positive arguments next time,
How is "better off in than out" not a positive argument?
It would have been, if only the Remain campaign had bothered to make it.
We heard little else from them.
LOL. "Worse out than in", although mathematically equivalent to "better in than out", is very different emotionally. I seem to remember we've already had this discussion in recent days.
We have - and your 'point' hasn't got any better. It's inane. Staying in the EU was the status quo. Same old same old. You can't market this as the ticket to a thrilling new life.
"Vote Remain. Let's carry on as we are. It's gonna be a blast!"
C'mon.
What you can do is what was done - stress that leaving would make us poorer and weaker. Which has duly happened, hence the consensus it was a mistake.
The bit in bold says it all. The Remain campaign was negative and argued "worse out than in" not "better in than out" - if you admit as much, why are you disagreeing with me? We agree!
What would be better than trolling - which I have limited patience for these days as you know - is if you can provide a concrete example of a big positive uplifting argument for staying in the EU that the Remain campaign should have made but didn't.
Some actual examples of things that we benefited from by being in the EU. Not described as "we will/might lose this if we leave".
Such as? Come on let's have a sample 'campaigning sentence' ...
"Perhaps THE most excellent of the many excellent things about EU membership is ... Driver to complete"
Why are you asking me? I voted Leave not least because the Remain campaign didn't come up with any examples! Unless you're implying that there are no such examples?
A person who keeps claiming the Remain campaign missed a trick by not making positive arguments for EU membership really ought to be able to give at least one example of what they mean. If they can't one would have to conclude they are ... no, let's not pre-empt matters, let's not assume you can't do this until you've failed another couple of times.
I think that the Remain campaign was rather negative - the impression was basically don't vote leave because if you do we will be worse off. Now that may well be true (seems to be) but it was not a positive message, Perhaps focussing on opportunities for the youth of the nation to work and study abroad?
The issue was that both side told lies (or possibly said what they believed to be true). I think many leavers believed that a free trade agreement with the EU was the same as being in the single market, and its now abundantly clear that that is not the case.
For the most part Remainer lies turned out to be accurate predictions.
Not all, by a long shot. Immediate recession? Immediate budget? Huge surge in unemployment?
It would decimate the car industry, food supply insecurity would lead to price rises, holiday travel would be more difficult so seats would be rationed and prices would rise, on the other hand were lies that proved more accurate.
I could go on, but we have left, we are not going back so we need to make the best of a poor hand.
The car industry is struggling in other countries too. Food prices rises are mainly down to Ukraine (basic goods like flour and energy). Has there been rationing of seats for travel? Really?
The issue we have is covid and Ukraine has dwarfed other effects. For the man in the street its easy to assume its all down to brexit, especially as a lot of Remainers keep banging that drum.
In reality some things have been contributed to by Brexit.
Eurostar only 2/3 full to accommodate for passport checks according to Simon Calder. Ferry companies told to reduce ticket sales to reduce passenger numbers to reduce passport check delays over the summer.
You won, we left, we have sucked it up and we are not going back. But please don't bullshit us by saying Brexit is great, all the bad stuff is courtesy of other circumstances and is definitely, categorically not because of Brexit.
What bad stuff? Thanks to our brilliant Brexit from the EU you can now go and live in the EU and pay barely any tax. And if you get bored of Spain you can go to Greece, Croatia or Portugal, which are offering similar visas
Don't be silly @Leon . You are wacky, but not stupid. The fact that you are desperately trying to find a benefit of Brexit that you quote this tiny marginal benefit to an astonishingly small number of people (if it is much of a benefit when fully evaluated) shows what a pile of horse shit Brexit is. It is like a once prosperous person wading whose house has been wrecked by a hurricane picking through the rubble and saying it wasn't that bad because he had just found a ten dollar bill that had blown over the garden fence.
Brexit was pointless. Dumb, stupid. You know it, but you cannot bring yourself to admit that as an intelligent person you were well and truly gulled. We have got over that we lost. You should get over that you were stupid.
Trouble is that it takes incredible courage and integrity to admit that one has been conned, or got something sincerely wrong. It's part of the average heist story mechanism and why bad ideas in physics die out one professorial funeral at a time.
The surprise is that the "this was a mistake" sensation has set in as much as it has.
I’m gonna be paying 15% tax in Spain rather than 40-45% BECAUSE OF BREXIT
- firstly capacity: the EU for bullshit reasons have said that the UK can’t use the automated gates (unlike South Korea, Australia or the US for example). That massively reduces the available capacity - from 10-20 gates to, usually, 2-4 officers - The individual checks are marginally longer. The electronic check is the same as pre-Brexit but then the officer flips through every page of the passport and stamps. I’d guesstimate it’s about 30 seconds extra per passport - We share a queue with countries that are deemed high risk so their passport checks and officer discussions take longer
In the case of Dover it’s a combination of several factors: (i) holiday demand; (ii) bad weather delaying sailings; (iii) staff shortages/work to rule by French officers who are grumbling about pay & conditions; and (iv) the elongated time required - especially with coaches where school kids have to get off the coach to be checked rather than a single teacher being able to take the passports down as a single bundle.
So part of it is normal stuff, and part of it is the French being silly and petty. So it’s not Brexit per se, but…
As I see it, Brexit allows the French to be silly and petty, and the French have chosen to take that opportunity (they weren't forced to).
So people who are blaming Brexit for this are essentially saying that the French should be expected to be silly and petty, which is rather xenophobic.
It's not as if the French were slow to turn down an opportunity to be pains in the arse at borders when we were in the EU. Sure, it was more difficult. But the argument 'if only we would do everything the French want us to then we will be able to get through borders more quickly' seems to me to fall into a 'too high a price to pay' category.
Operation Stack has been extant since 1987 - so it’s not as if the French being French, hasn’t been happening every few months for decades!
Yes, stamping of passports takes a little extra time, but the major factors are the work-to-rule by the border staff, and the recent weather.
The thing is with nearly everything Brexit is that it is nearly always another issue, but Brexit tips it over the edge unnecessarily and then people say 'Ah but it isn't Brexit it is this'.
Yes there have been queues at ports before. I have been held up on the tunnel for hours twice before Brexit, so yes there will always be times when it falls apart because of something or other, but those times are made worse by Brexit and there will be times when before Brexit it was just coping and now it won't.
The same applies to the impact on businesses. The cry goes out that the company was probably going to collapse anyway, they were barely making any profit for this reason or that. But Brexit doesn't help if it tips them over the edge and of course this applies to the more successful companies as well. Yes they will carry on being profitable, but less so.
The exclamation that it is always another reason and not Brexit is often/usually not true, both contribute. If you eliminate Brexit, it might just be you get by regardless of the other disaster (weather, overbooking, working to rule, etc)
Of course there will be times that Brexit has nothing to do with it at all and Brexit gets blamed (that's life), but equally there are examples where Brexit is not just contributory but entirely the reason for a failure, so that cuts both ways.
Absolutely. And the other point to make is that unlike COVID and Ukraine, Brexit was entirely self-inflicted and unnecessary. It is the most egregious example of a government acting contrary to what was in the country’s best interests. The Tories should never be forgiven for it.
LOL if the majority in the country voted to leave who are you to tell them theyre wrong ?
The majority of the country now think they were wrong. Who are you to tell us that our opinions were set in stone back in 2016 ?
Oh really, are you that naive ?
The current polls simply reflect a long whine from remianers blaming everything they can think of on Brexit, often when it has nothing to do with it.
What is missing is the the long list of bad news from the EU which regularly occurred when we were in. We had a taste of that in the Covid fiasco when Van der Leyen demanded all our AZ jabs.
But currently were missing the £17 billion quid handed over in times of austerity, the keep Germany's lights on diktat on pool gas resources, the dont upset Putin schtick in Ukraine we would have been tied in with via EU foreign policies, lots more immigration, and all the daily low level bollocks which just pissed people off.
The news cycle to date has mostly been one way, the polls are simply reflecting that, throw in the reality of what we have missed out on and they wont be showing those results.
Well I can see your opinion is indeed set in stone.
'Long whine' is good. As though that would persuade anyone against their will.
My opinions not set in stone, there have been some uncomfortable adjustments as a result of Brexit but the country isnt falling apart because of it. Covid and Putin have had much bigger impacts.
And as for the whining, the vote was almost 7 years ago, I prefer to look forward rather than cling on to a non existent past, you and the League of European Empire Loyalists still have your chance to seek to rejoin Nirvana. Maybe you could advance some positive arguments next time,
How is "better off in than out" not a positive argument?
It would have been, if only the Remain campaign had bothered to make it.
We heard little else from them.
LOL. "Worse out than in", although mathematically equivalent to "better in than out", is very different emotionally. I seem to remember we've already had this discussion in recent days.
We have - and your 'point' hasn't got any better. It's inane. Staying in the EU was the status quo. Same old same old. You can't market this as the ticket to a thrilling new life.
"Vote Remain. Let's carry on as we are. It's gonna be a blast!"
C'mon.
What you can do is what was done - stress that leaving would make us poorer and weaker. Which has duly happened, hence the consensus it was a mistake.
The bit in bold says it all. The Remain campaign was negative and argued "worse out than in" not "better in than out" - if you admit as much, why are you disagreeing with me? We agree!
What would be better than trolling - which I have limited patience for these days as you know - is if you can provide a concrete example of a big positive uplifting argument for staying in the EU that the Remain campaign should have made but didn't.
Some actual examples of things that we benefited from by being in the EU. Not described as "we will/might lose this if we leave".
Such as? Come on let's have a sample 'campaigning sentence' ...
"Perhaps THE most excellent of the many excellent things about EU membership is ... Driver to complete"
Why are you asking me? I voted Leave not least because the Remain campaign didn't come up with any examples! Unless you're implying that there are no such examples?
A person who keeps claiming the Remain campaign missed a trick by not making positive arguments for EU membership really ought to be able to give at least one example of what they mean. If they can't one would have to conclude they are ... no, let's not pre-empt matters, let's not assume you can't do this until you've failed another couple of times.
I think that the Remain campaign was rather negative - the impression was basically don't vote leave because if you do we will be worse off. Now that may well be true (seems to be) but it was not a positive message, Perhaps focussing on opportunities for the youth of the nation to work and study abroad?
The issue was that both side told lies (or possibly said what they believed to be true). I think many leavers believed that a free trade agreement with the EU was the same as being in the single market, and its now abundantly clear that that is not the case.
For the most part Remainer lies turned out to be accurate predictions.
Not all, by a long shot. Immediate recession? Immediate budget? Huge surge in unemployment?
It would decimate the car industry, food supply insecurity would lead to price rises, holiday travel would be more difficult so seats would be rationed and prices would rise, on the other hand were lies that proved more accurate.
I could go on, but we have left, we are not going back so we need to make the best of a poor hand.
The car industry is struggling in other countries too. Food prices rises are mainly down to Ukraine (basic goods like flour and energy). Has there been rationing of seats for travel? Really?
The issue we have is covid and Ukraine has dwarfed other effects. For the man in the street its easy to assume its all down to brexit, especially as a lot of Remainers keep banging that drum.
In reality some things have been contributed to by Brexit.
Eurostar only 2/3 full to accommodate for passport checks according to Simon Calder. Ferry companies told to reduce ticket sales to reduce passenger numbers to reduce passport check delays over the summer.
You won, we left, we have sucked it up and we are not going back. But please don't bullshit us by saying Brexit is great, all the bad stuff is courtesy of other circumstances and is definitely, categorically not because of Brexit.
What bad stuff? Thanks to our brilliant Brexit from the EU you can now go and live in the EU and pay barely any tax. And if you get bored of Spain you can go to Greece, Croatia or Portugal, which are offering similar visas
Don't be silly @Leon . You are wacky, but not stupid. The fact that you are desperately trying to find a benefit of Brexit that you quote this tiny marginal benefit to an astonishingly small number of people (if it is much of a benefit when fully evaluated) shows what a pile of horse shit Brexit is. It is like a once prosperous person wading whose house has been wrecked by a hurricane picking through the rubble and saying it wasn't that bad because he had just found a ten dollar bill that had blown over the garden fence.
Brexit was pointless. Dumb, stupid. You know it, but you cannot bring yourself to admit that as an intelligent person you were well and truly gulled. We have got over that we lost. You should get over that you were stupid.
Trouble is that it takes incredible courage and integrity to admit that one has been conned, or got something sincerely wrong. It's part of the average heist story mechanism and why bad ideas in physics die out one professorial funeral at a time.
The surprise is that the "this was a mistake" sensation has set in as much as it has.
Not really, with Covid and Ukraine nobody could argue the last three years have been good. Many people struggle with correlation and causation, so if we'd voted to remain you can bet your bottom euro that there would have been majority regret for that as well.
Once everyone else catches up with me and realises what I just realised then loads of countries will start leaving the EU, just so they can go back and live in the EU like before, but in a sunnier bit and paying tiny amounts of tax
Leon, you do know you can go to Portugal and pay 0%, right ? Just Google "NHR Portugal "
That’s only open to EEA nationals and Golden Visa people. I don’t want to buy a property in Portugal to get a Golden Visa (which they have now massively restricted anyway)
The Remain campaign was poor, but the number one main reason we left is 30 years of Rupert Murdoch and Paul Dacre telling us how shit the EEC/EC/EU/2nd Coming of Nazi Germany (delete as appropriate) was, with some Austerity thrown in.
My attitude is that we have left the EU and the discussion should be how we improve our relationship with the EU without opening the can of worms that rejoining would cause
To be fair both Sunak and Starmer get it, with both much on the same page wanting closer friendship and cooperation without the full political project being resurrected
I know many have been seriously upset by Brexit but the future lies with the centre and not the nastiness from both sides and in particular @Roger unacceptable comments today about the late Lord Lawson
The Remain campaign was poor, but the number one main reason we left is 30 years of Rupert Murdoch and Paul Dacre telling us how shit the EEC/EC/EU/2nd Coming of Nazi Germany (delete as appropriate) was, with some Austerity thrown in.
which has to be set against the Commission spending 30 years telling us how excellent EU was and how we needed more of it. It sort of balances out.
That VD is wrong. It The set of non-Kingstonian inventors of the Venn Diagram is a null set. The pic should look like an egg cut in half. But in fairness it is not by the Maths Dept but, presumabluy, the marketing folkses.
Yes, the first set should be labelled 'People born in Hull', and the second should be labelled 'people who invented types of diagram'. And the labels should be labels, not members of the sets.
Honestly, they teach this stuff to primary school children. And those who fail to understand it get jobs in marketing
You make it sound like a failure: this is an important filtering process that enables us to identify the future marketing managers early and ensure they learn appropriate skills.
You know, like how to get the bill in any restaurant, anywhere in the world.
That VD is wrong. It The set of non-Kingstonian inventors of the Venn Diagram is a null set. The pic should look like an egg cut in half. But in fairness it is not by the Maths Dept but, presumabluy, the marketing folkses.
Yes, the first set should be labelled 'People born in Hull', and the second should be labelled 'people who invented types of diagram'. And the labels should be labels, not members of the sets.
Honestly, they teach this stuff to primary school children. And those who fail to understand it get jobs in marketing
You make it sound like a failure: this is an important filtering process that enables us to identify the future marketing managers early and ensure they learn appropriate skills.
You know, like how to get the bill in any restaurant, anywhere in the world.
Thats a developed skill. You can free load on the company, the financiers think theyve avoided paying but fail to understand the moneys all coming out of the same place.
Remind me... How does Scotland work? Is it that the regional vote is the one that basically determines the number of seats each party has? (i.e. each party gets the Constituency seats it wins, then the regions top up to get the right numbers by the regional vote shares?)
If it's not that, it's something else really unobvious.
Pretty much, although with SNP constituency dominance in recent elections the regional members haven't been enough to bring it to proportion on the "second vote" (a term I really hate).
Not really. The list seats only contribute 56. If the list percentage dictated the result it would need to influence all 129 seats not 56. SNP would lose 2 msps, Cons would lose 1 and the other parties would gain 2 or 3 msps.
The Remain campaign was poor, but the number one main reason we left is 30 years of Rupert Murdoch and Paul Dacre telling us how shit the EEC/EC/EU/2nd Coming of Nazi Germany (delete as appropriate) was, with some Austerity thrown in.
Ah, Rupert Murdoch and Paul Dacre, the big bogeymen of the media.
- firstly capacity: the EU for bullshit reasons have said that the UK can’t use the automated gates (unlike South Korea, Australia or the US for example). That massively reduces the available capacity - from 10-20 gates to, usually, 2-4 officers - The individual checks are marginally longer. The electronic check is the same as pre-Brexit but then the officer flips through every page of the passport and stamps. I’d guesstimate it’s about 30 seconds extra per passport - We share a queue with countries that are deemed high risk so their passport checks and officer discussions take longer
In the case of Dover it’s a combination of several factors: (i) holiday demand; (ii) bad weather delaying sailings; (iii) staff shortages/work to rule by French officers who are grumbling about pay & conditions; and (iv) the elongated time required - especially with coaches where school kids have to get off the coach to be checked rather than a single teacher being able to take the passports down as a single bundle.
So part of it is normal stuff, and part of it is the French being silly and petty. So it’s not Brexit per se, but…
As I see it, Brexit allows the French to be silly and petty, and the French have chosen to take that opportunity (they weren't forced to).
So people who are blaming Brexit for this are essentially saying that the French should be expected to be silly and petty, which is rather xenophobic.
It's not as if the French were slow to turn down an opportunity to be pains in the arse at borders when we were in the EU. Sure, it was more difficult. But the argument 'if only we would do everything the French want us to then we will be able to get through borders more quickly' seems to me to fall into a 'too high a price to pay' category.
Operation Stack has been extant since 1987 - so it’s not as if the French being French, hasn’t been happening every few months for decades!
Yes, stamping of passports takes a little extra time, but the major factors are the work-to-rule by the border staff, and the recent weather.
The thing is with nearly everything Brexit is that it is nearly always another issue, but Brexit tips it over the edge unnecessarily and then people say 'Ah but it isn't Brexit it is this'.
Yes there have been queues at ports before. I have been held up on the tunnel for hours twice before Brexit, so yes there will always be times when it falls apart because of something or other, but those times are made worse by Brexit and there will be times when before Brexit it was just coping and now it won't.
The same applies to the impact on businesses. The cry goes out that the company was probably going to collapse anyway, they were barely making any profit for this reason or that. But Brexit doesn't help if it tips them over the edge and of course this applies to the more successful companies as well. Yes they will carry on being profitable, but less so.
The exclamation that it is always another reason and not Brexit is often/usually not true, both contribute. If you eliminate Brexit, it might just be you get by regardless of the other disaster (weather, overbooking, working to rule, etc)
Of course there will be times that Brexit has nothing to do with it at all and Brexit gets blamed (that's life), but equally there are examples where Brexit is not just contributory but entirely the reason for a failure, so that cuts both ways.
Absolutely. And the other point to make is that unlike COVID and Ukraine, Brexit was entirely self-inflicted and unnecessary. It is the most egregious example of a government acting contrary to what was in the country’s best interests. The Tories should never be forgiven for it.
LOL if the majority in the country voted to leave who are you to tell them theyre wrong ?
The majority of the country now think they were wrong. Who are you to tell us that our opinions were set in stone back in 2016 ?
Oh really, are you that naive ?
The current polls simply reflect a long whine from remianers blaming everything they can think of on Brexit, often when it has nothing to do with it.
What is missing is the the long list of bad news from the EU which regularly occurred when we were in. We had a taste of that in the Covid fiasco when Van der Leyen demanded all our AZ jabs.
But currently were missing the £17 billion quid handed over in times of austerity, the keep Germany's lights on diktat on pool gas resources, the dont upset Putin schtick in Ukraine we would have been tied in with via EU foreign policies, lots more immigration, and all the daily low level bollocks which just pissed people off.
The news cycle to date has mostly been one way, the polls are simply reflecting that, throw in the reality of what we have missed out on and they wont be showing those results.
Well I can see your opinion is indeed set in stone.
'Long whine' is good. As though that would persuade anyone against their will.
My opinions not set in stone, there have been some uncomfortable adjustments as a result of Brexit but the country isnt falling apart because of it. Covid and Putin have had much bigger impacts.
And as for the whining, the vote was almost 7 years ago, I prefer to look forward rather than cling on to a non existent past, you and the League of European Empire Loyalists still have your chance to seek to rejoin Nirvana. Maybe you could advance some positive arguments next time,
How is "better off in than out" not a positive argument?
It would have been, if only the Remain campaign had bothered to make it.
We heard little else from them.
LOL. "Worse out than in", although mathematically equivalent to "better in than out", is very different emotionally. I seem to remember we've already had this discussion in recent days.
We have - and your 'point' hasn't got any better. It's inane. Staying in the EU was the status quo. Same old same old. You can't market this as the ticket to a thrilling new life.
"Vote Remain. Let's carry on as we are. It's gonna be a blast!"
C'mon.
What you can do is what was done - stress that leaving would make us poorer and weaker. Which has duly happened, hence the consensus it was a mistake.
The bit in bold says it all. The Remain campaign was negative and argued "worse out than in" not "better in than out" - if you admit as much, why are you disagreeing with me? We agree!
What would be better than trolling - which I have limited patience for these days as you know - is if you can provide a concrete example of a big positive uplifting argument for staying in the EU that the Remain campaign should have made but didn't.
Some actual examples of things that we benefited from by being in the EU. Not described as "we will/might lose this if we leave".
Such as? Come on let's have a sample 'campaigning sentence' ...
"Perhaps THE most excellent of the many excellent things about EU membership is ... Driver to complete"
Why are you asking me? I voted Leave not least because the Remain campaign didn't come up with any examples! Unless you're implying that there are no such examples?
A person who keeps claiming the Remain campaign missed a trick by not making positive arguments for EU membership really ought to be able to give at least one example of what they mean. If they can't one would have to conclude they are ... no, let's not pre-empt matters, let's not assume you can't do this until you've failed another couple of times.
I think that the Remain campaign was rather negative - the impression was basically don't vote leave because if you do we will be worse off. Now that may well be true (seems to be) but it was not a positive message, Perhaps focussing on opportunities for the youth of the nation to work and study abroad?
The issue was that both side told lies (or possibly said what they believed to be true). I think many leavers believed that a free trade agreement with the EU was the same as being in the single market, and its now abundantly clear that that is not the case.
For the most part Remainer lies turned out to be accurate predictions.
Not all, by a long shot. Immediate recession? Immediate budget? Huge surge in unemployment?
It would decimate the car industry, food supply insecurity would lead to price rises, holiday travel would be more difficult so seats would be rationed and prices would rise, on the other hand were lies that proved more accurate.
I could go on, but we have left, we are not going back so we need to make the best of a poor hand.
The car industry is struggling in other countries too. Food prices rises are mainly down to Ukraine (basic goods like flour and energy). Has there been rationing of seats for travel? Really?
The issue we have is covid and Ukraine has dwarfed other effects. For the man in the street its easy to assume its all down to brexit, especially as a lot of Remainers keep banging that drum.
In reality some things have been contributed to by Brexit.
Eurostar only 2/3 full to accommodate for passport checks according to Simon Calder. Ferry companies told to reduce ticket sales to reduce passenger numbers to reduce passport check delays over the summer.
You won, we left, we have sucked it up and we are not going back. But please don't bullshit us by saying Brexit is great, all the bad stuff is courtesy of other circumstances and is definitely, categorically not because of Brexit.
What bad stuff? Thanks to our brilliant Brexit from the EU you can now go and live in the EU and pay barely any tax. And if you get bored of Spain you can go to Greece, Croatia or Portugal, which are offering similar visas
Don't be silly @Leon . You are wacky, but not stupid. The fact that you are desperately trying to find a benefit of Brexit that you quote this tiny marginal benefit to an astonishingly small number of people (if it is much of a benefit when fully evaluated) shows what a pile of horse shit Brexit is. It is like a once prosperous person wading whose house has been wrecked by a hurricane picking through the rubble and saying it wasn't that bad because he had just found a ten dollar bill that had blown over the garden fence.
Brexit was pointless. Dumb, stupid. You know it, but you cannot bring yourself to admit that as an intelligent person you were well and truly gulled. We have got over that we lost. You should get over that you were stupid.
I may be reading too much into what someone posts on an internet site, but the impression I get is not one of a man who has got over being on the losing side in a referendum.
- firstly capacity: the EU for bullshit reasons have said that the UK can’t use the automated gates (unlike South Korea, Australia or the US for example). That massively reduces the available capacity - from 10-20 gates to, usually, 2-4 officers - The individual checks are marginally longer. The electronic check is the same as pre-Brexit but then the officer flips through every page of the passport and stamps. I’d guesstimate it’s about 30 seconds extra per passport - We share a queue with countries that are deemed high risk so their passport checks and officer discussions take longer
In the case of Dover it’s a combination of several factors: (i) holiday demand; (ii) bad weather delaying sailings; (iii) staff shortages/work to rule by French officers who are grumbling about pay & conditions; and (iv) the elongated time required - especially with coaches where school kids have to get off the coach to be checked rather than a single teacher being able to take the passports down as a single bundle.
So part of it is normal stuff, and part of it is the French being silly and petty. So it’s not Brexit per se, but…
As I see it, Brexit allows the French to be silly and petty, and the French have chosen to take that opportunity (they weren't forced to).
So people who are blaming Brexit for this are essentially saying that the French should be expected to be silly and petty, which is rather xenophobic.
It's not as if the French were slow to turn down an opportunity to be pains in the arse at borders when we were in the EU. Sure, it was more difficult. But the argument 'if only we would do everything the French want us to then we will be able to get through borders more quickly' seems to me to fall into a 'too high a price to pay' category.
Operation Stack has been extant since 1987 - so it’s not as if the French being French, hasn’t been happening every few months for decades!
Yes, stamping of passports takes a little extra time, but the major factors are the work-to-rule by the border staff, and the recent weather.
The thing is with nearly everything Brexit is that it is nearly always another issue, but Brexit tips it over the edge unnecessarily and then people say 'Ah but it isn't Brexit it is this'.
Yes there have been queues at ports before. I have been held up on the tunnel for hours twice before Brexit, so yes there will always be times when it falls apart because of something or other, but those times are made worse by Brexit and there will be times when before Brexit it was just coping and now it won't.
The same applies to the impact on businesses. The cry goes out that the company was probably going to collapse anyway, they were barely making any profit for this reason or that. But Brexit doesn't help if it tips them over the edge and of course this applies to the more successful companies as well. Yes they will carry on being profitable, but less so.
The exclamation that it is always another reason and not Brexit is often/usually not true, both contribute. If you eliminate Brexit, it might just be you get by regardless of the other disaster (weather, overbooking, working to rule, etc)
Of course there will be times that Brexit has nothing to do with it at all and Brexit gets blamed (that's life), but equally there are examples where Brexit is not just contributory but entirely the reason for a failure, so that cuts both ways.
Absolutely. And the other point to make is that unlike COVID and Ukraine, Brexit was entirely self-inflicted and unnecessary. It is the most egregious example of a government acting contrary to what was in the country’s best interests. The Tories should never be forgiven for it.
LOL if the majority in the country voted to leave who are you to tell them theyre wrong ?
The majority of the country now think they were wrong. Who are you to tell us that our opinions were set in stone back in 2016 ?
Oh really, are you that naive ?
The current polls simply reflect a long whine from remianers blaming everything they can think of on Brexit, often when it has nothing to do with it.
What is missing is the the long list of bad news from the EU which regularly occurred when we were in. We had a taste of that in the Covid fiasco when Van der Leyen demanded all our AZ jabs.
But currently were missing the £17 billion quid handed over in times of austerity, the keep Germany's lights on diktat on pool gas resources, the dont upset Putin schtick in Ukraine we would have been tied in with via EU foreign policies, lots more immigration, and all the daily low level bollocks which just pissed people off.
The news cycle to date has mostly been one way, the polls are simply reflecting that, throw in the reality of what we have missed out on and they wont be showing those results.
Well I can see your opinion is indeed set in stone.
'Long whine' is good. As though that would persuade anyone against their will.
My opinions not set in stone, there have been some uncomfortable adjustments as a result of Brexit but the country isnt falling apart because of it. Covid and Putin have had much bigger impacts.
And as for the whining, the vote was almost 7 years ago, I prefer to look forward rather than cling on to a non existent past, you and the League of European Empire Loyalists still have your chance to seek to rejoin Nirvana. Maybe you could advance some positive arguments next time,
How is "better off in than out" not a positive argument?
It would have been, if only the Remain campaign had bothered to make it.
We heard little else from them.
LOL. "Worse out than in", although mathematically equivalent to "better in than out", is very different emotionally. I seem to remember we've already had this discussion in recent days.
We have - and your 'point' hasn't got any better. It's inane. Staying in the EU was the status quo. Same old same old. You can't market this as the ticket to a thrilling new life.
"Vote Remain. Let's carry on as we are. It's gonna be a blast!"
C'mon.
What you can do is what was done - stress that leaving would make us poorer and weaker. Which has duly happened, hence the consensus it was a mistake.
The bit in bold says it all. The Remain campaign was negative and argued "worse out than in" not "better in than out" - if you admit as much, why are you disagreeing with me? We agree!
What would be better than trolling - which I have limited patience for these days as you know - is if you can provide a concrete example of a big positive uplifting argument for staying in the EU that the Remain campaign should have made but didn't.
Some actual examples of things that we benefited from by being in the EU. Not described as "we will/might lose this if we leave".
Such as? Come on let's have a sample 'campaigning sentence' ...
"Perhaps THE most excellent of the many excellent things about EU membership is ... Driver to complete"
Why are you asking me? I voted Leave not least because the Remain campaign didn't come up with any examples! Unless you're implying that there are no such examples?
A person who keeps claiming the Remain campaign missed a trick by not making positive arguments for EU membership really ought to be able to give at least one example of what they mean. If they can't one would have to conclude they are ... no, let's not pre-empt matters, let's not assume you can't do this until you've failed another couple of times.
I think that the Remain campaign was rather negative - the impression was basically don't vote leave because if you do we will be worse off. Now that may well be true (seems to be) but it was not a positive message, Perhaps focussing on opportunities for the youth of the nation to work and study abroad?
The issue was that both side told lies (or possibly said what they believed to be true). I think many leavers believed that a free trade agreement with the EU was the same as being in the single market, and its now abundantly clear that that is not the case.
For the most part Remainer lies turned out to be accurate predictions.
Not all, by a long shot. Immediate recession? Immediate budget? Huge surge in unemployment?
It would decimate the car industry, food supply insecurity would lead to price rises, holiday travel would be more difficult so seats would be rationed and prices would rise, on the other hand were lies that proved more accurate.
I could go on, but we have left, we are not going back so we need to make the best of a poor hand.
The car industry is struggling in other countries too. Food prices rises are mainly down to Ukraine (basic goods like flour and energy). Has there been rationing of seats for travel? Really?
The issue we have is covid and Ukraine has dwarfed other effects. For the man in the street its easy to assume its all down to brexit, especially as a lot of Remainers keep banging that drum.
In reality some things have been contributed to by Brexit.
Eurostar only 2/3 full to accommodate for passport checks according to Simon Calder. Ferry companies told to reduce ticket sales to reduce passenger numbers to reduce passport check delays over the summer.
You won, we left, we have sucked it up and we are not going back. But please don't bullshit us by saying Brexit is great, all the bad stuff is courtesy of other circumstances and is definitely, categorically not because of Brexit.
What bad stuff? Thanks to our brilliant Brexit from the EU you can now go and live in the EU and pay barely any tax. And if you get bored of Spain you can go to Greece, Croatia or Portugal, which are offering similar visas
Don't be silly @Leon . You are wacky, but not stupid. The fact that you are desperately trying to find a benefit of Brexit that you quote this tiny marginal benefit to an astonishingly small number of people (if it is much of a benefit when fully evaluated) shows what a pile of horse shit Brexit is. It is like a once prosperous person wading whose house has been wrecked by a hurricane picking through the rubble and saying it wasn't that bad because he had just found a ten dollar bill that had blown over the garden fence.
Brexit was pointless. Dumb, stupid. You know it, but you cannot bring yourself to admit that as an intelligent person you were well and truly gulled. We have got over that we lost. You should get over that you were stupid.
The Brexit benefit is big for Leon. Not pointless or stupid.
The Remain campaign was poor, but the number one main reason we left is 30 years of Rupert Murdoch and Paul Dacre telling us how shit the EEC/EC/EU/2nd Coming of Nazi Germany (delete as appropriate) was, with some Austerity thrown in.
You somehow overlooked 40 years of deprivation of democracy, by Europhiles determiend they knew better than pesky voters...
The Remain campaign was poor, but the number one main reason we left is 30 years of Rupert Murdoch and Paul Dacre telling us how shit the EEC/EC/EU/2nd Coming of Nazi Germany (delete as appropriate) was, with some Austerity thrown in.
Ah, Rupert Murdoch and Paul Dacre, the big bogeymen of the media.
Do people who understood why Germany couldn't help Ukraine properly at first because something to do with the Nazis and WW2, now understand why Germany is deeply ashamed for not helping sooner?
It's likely noise, but I thought that the SNP saying FU to Forbes was going to drive right-thinking right-wing Scots into the welcoming embrace of the Conservative and Unionist Party?
No chance , I will not vote Nu SNP but sure as hell ain't voting Tory.
- firstly capacity: the EU for bullshit reasons have said that the UK can’t use the automated gates (unlike South Korea, Australia or the US for example). That massively reduces the available capacity - from 10-20 gates to, usually, 2-4 officers - The individual checks are marginally longer. The electronic check is the same as pre-Brexit but then the officer flips through every page of the passport and stamps. I’d guesstimate it’s about 30 seconds extra per passport - We share a queue with countries that are deemed high risk so their passport checks and officer discussions take longer
In the case of Dover it’s a combination of several factors: (i) holiday demand; (ii) bad weather delaying sailings; (iii) staff shortages/work to rule by French officers who are grumbling about pay & conditions; and (iv) the elongated time required - especially with coaches where school kids have to get off the coach to be checked rather than a single teacher being able to take the passports down as a single bundle.
So part of it is normal stuff, and part of it is the French being silly and petty. So it’s not Brexit per se, but…
As I see it, Brexit allows the French to be silly and petty, and the French have chosen to take that opportunity (they weren't forced to).
So people who are blaming Brexit for this are essentially saying that the French should be expected to be silly and petty, which is rather xenophobic.
It's not as if the French were slow to turn down an opportunity to be pains in the arse at borders when we were in the EU. Sure, it was more difficult. But the argument 'if only we would do everything the French want us to then we will be able to get through borders more quickly' seems to me to fall into a 'too high a price to pay' category.
Operation Stack has been extant since 1987 - so it’s not as if the French being French, hasn’t been happening every few months for decades!
Yes, stamping of passports takes a little extra time, but the major factors are the work-to-rule by the border staff, and the recent weather.
The thing is with nearly everything Brexit is that it is nearly always another issue, but Brexit tips it over the edge unnecessarily and then people say 'Ah but it isn't Brexit it is this'.
Yes there have been queues at ports before. I have been held up on the tunnel for hours twice before Brexit, so yes there will always be times when it falls apart because of something or other, but those times are made worse by Brexit and there will be times when before Brexit it was just coping and now it won't.
The same applies to the impact on businesses. The cry goes out that the company was probably going to collapse anyway, they were barely making any profit for this reason or that. But Brexit doesn't help if it tips them over the edge and of course this applies to the more successful companies as well. Yes they will carry on being profitable, but less so.
The exclamation that it is always another reason and not Brexit is often/usually not true, both contribute. If you eliminate Brexit, it might just be you get by regardless of the other disaster (weather, overbooking, working to rule, etc)
Of course there will be times that Brexit has nothing to do with it at all and Brexit gets blamed (that's life), but equally there are examples where Brexit is not just contributory but entirely the reason for a failure, so that cuts both ways.
Absolutely. And the other point to make is that unlike COVID and Ukraine, Brexit was entirely self-inflicted and unnecessary. It is the most egregious example of a government acting contrary to what was in the country’s best interests. The Tories should never be forgiven for it.
LOL if the majority in the country voted to leave who are you to tell them theyre wrong ?
The majority of the country now think they were wrong. Who are you to tell us that our opinions were set in stone back in 2016 ?
Oh really, are you that naive ?
The current polls simply reflect a long whine from remianers blaming everything they can think of on Brexit, often when it has nothing to do with it.
What is missing is the the long list of bad news from the EU which regularly occurred when we were in. We had a taste of that in the Covid fiasco when Van der Leyen demanded all our AZ jabs.
But currently were missing the £17 billion quid handed over in times of austerity, the keep Germany's lights on diktat on pool gas resources, the dont upset Putin schtick in Ukraine we would have been tied in with via EU foreign policies, lots more immigration, and all the daily low level bollocks which just pissed people off.
The news cycle to date has mostly been one way, the polls are simply reflecting that, throw in the reality of what we have missed out on and they wont be showing those results.
Well I can see your opinion is indeed set in stone.
'Long whine' is good. As though that would persuade anyone against their will.
My opinions not set in stone, there have been some uncomfortable adjustments as a result of Brexit but the country isnt falling apart because of it. Covid and Putin have had much bigger impacts.
And as for the whining, the vote was almost 7 years ago, I prefer to look forward rather than cling on to a non existent past, you and the League of European Empire Loyalists still have your chance to seek to rejoin Nirvana. Maybe you could advance some positive arguments next time,
How is "better off in than out" not a positive argument?
It would have been, if only the Remain campaign had bothered to make it.
We heard little else from them.
LOL. "Worse out than in", although mathematically equivalent to "better in than out", is very different emotionally. I seem to remember we've already had this discussion in recent days.
We have - and your 'point' hasn't got any better. It's inane. Staying in the EU was the status quo. Same old same old. You can't market this as the ticket to a thrilling new life.
"Vote Remain. Let's carry on as we are. It's gonna be a blast!"
C'mon.
What you can do is what was done - stress that leaving would make us poorer and weaker. Which has duly happened, hence the consensus it was a mistake.
The bit in bold says it all. The Remain campaign was negative and argued "worse out than in" not "better in than out" - if you admit as much, why are you disagreeing with me? We agree!
What would be better than trolling - which I have limited patience for these days as you know - is if you can provide a concrete example of a big positive uplifting argument for staying in the EU that the Remain campaign should have made but didn't.
Some actual examples of things that we benefited from by being in the EU. Not described as "we will/might lose this if we leave".
Such as? Come on let's have a sample 'campaigning sentence' ...
"Perhaps THE most excellent of the many excellent things about EU membership is ... Driver to complete"
Why are you asking me? I voted Leave not least because the Remain campaign didn't come up with any examples! Unless you're implying that there are no such examples?
A person who keeps claiming the Remain campaign missed a trick by not making positive arguments for EU membership really ought to be able to give at least one example of what they mean. If they can't one would have to conclude they are ... no, let's not pre-empt matters, let's not assume you can't do this until you've failed another couple of times.
I think that the Remain campaign was rather negative - the impression was basically don't vote leave because if you do we will be worse off. Now that may well be true (seems to be) but it was not a positive message, Perhaps focussing on opportunities for the youth of the nation to work and study abroad?
The issue was that both side told lies (or possibly said what they believed to be true). I think many leavers believed that a free trade agreement with the EU was the same as being in the single market, and its now abundantly clear that that is not the case.
Well the youth of the nation voted Remain. But on the general 'positive v negative' point: (i) EU membership benefits us. We'll be worse off without it. (ii) EU membership benefits us. We are better off keeping it. These are exactly the same message. Neither is positive, neither is negative, both are the plain and simple truth.
An assertion that x benefits us is totally insufficient you actually have to give concrete examples of how it benefits
In relation to the EU yes it had benefits but those benefits were very unequally spread. If you were a manager wanting to employ min wage workers, a middle class home owner wanting a cheap au pair or plumber then sure you got benefits.
For half the country though they couldn't afford a plumber even at the cheaper prices but they did get increased pressure on housing and local services and more competition for low end jobs. I guess they got the benefit of not spending so long in a queue on their once a year trip to spain.
Genuinely, do you think this has changed in the slightest since Brexit?
Except maybe more so, as immigration has increased?
- firstly capacity: the EU for bullshit reasons have said that the UK can’t use the automated gates (unlike South Korea, Australia or the US for example). That massively reduces the available capacity - from 10-20 gates to, usually, 2-4 officers - The individual checks are marginally longer. The electronic check is the same as pre-Brexit but then the officer flips through every page of the passport and stamps. I’d guesstimate it’s about 30 seconds extra per passport - We share a queue with countries that are deemed high risk so their passport checks and officer discussions take longer
In the case of Dover it’s a combination of several factors: (i) holiday demand; (ii) bad weather delaying sailings; (iii) staff shortages/work to rule by French officers who are grumbling about pay & conditions; and (iv) the elongated time required - especially with coaches where school kids have to get off the coach to be checked rather than a single teacher being able to take the passports down as a single bundle.
So part of it is normal stuff, and part of it is the French being silly and petty. So it’s not Brexit per se, but…
As I see it, Brexit allows the French to be silly and petty, and the French have chosen to take that opportunity (they weren't forced to).
So people who are blaming Brexit for this are essentially saying that the French should be expected to be silly and petty, which is rather xenophobic.
It's not as if the French were slow to turn down an opportunity to be pains in the arse at borders when we were in the EU. Sure, it was more difficult. But the argument 'if only we would do everything the French want us to then we will be able to get through borders more quickly' seems to me to fall into a 'too high a price to pay' category.
Operation Stack has been extant since 1987 - so it’s not as if the French being French, hasn’t been happening every few months for decades!
Yes, stamping of passports takes a little extra time, but the major factors are the work-to-rule by the border staff, and the recent weather.
The thing is with nearly everything Brexit is that it is nearly always another issue, but Brexit tips it over the edge unnecessarily and then people say 'Ah but it isn't Brexit it is this'.
Yes there have been queues at ports before. I have been held up on the tunnel for hours twice before Brexit, so yes there will always be times when it falls apart because of something or other, but those times are made worse by Brexit and there will be times when before Brexit it was just coping and now it won't.
The same applies to the impact on businesses. The cry goes out that the company was probably going to collapse anyway, they were barely making any profit for this reason or that. But Brexit doesn't help if it tips them over the edge and of course this applies to the more successful companies as well. Yes they will carry on being profitable, but less so.
The exclamation that it is always another reason and not Brexit is often/usually not true, both contribute. If you eliminate Brexit, it might just be you get by regardless of the other disaster (weather, overbooking, working to rule, etc)
Of course there will be times that Brexit has nothing to do with it at all and Brexit gets blamed (that's life), but equally there are examples where Brexit is not just contributory but entirely the reason for a failure, so that cuts both ways.
Absolutely. And the other point to make is that unlike COVID and Ukraine, Brexit was entirely self-inflicted and unnecessary. It is the most egregious example of a government acting contrary to what was in the country’s best interests. The Tories should never be forgiven for it.
LOL if the majority in the country voted to leave who are you to tell them theyre wrong ?
The majority of the country now think they were wrong. Who are you to tell us that our opinions were set in stone back in 2016 ?
Oh really, are you that naive ?
The current polls simply reflect a long whine from remianers blaming everything they can think of on Brexit, often when it has nothing to do with it.
What is missing is the the long list of bad news from the EU which regularly occurred when we were in. We had a taste of that in the Covid fiasco when Van der Leyen demanded all our AZ jabs.
But currently were missing the £17 billion quid handed over in times of austerity, the keep Germany's lights on diktat on pool gas resources, the dont upset Putin schtick in Ukraine we would have been tied in with via EU foreign policies, lots more immigration, and all the daily low level bollocks which just pissed people off.
The news cycle to date has mostly been one way, the polls are simply reflecting that, throw in the reality of what we have missed out on and they wont be showing those results.
Well I can see your opinion is indeed set in stone.
'Long whine' is good. As though that would persuade anyone against their will.
My opinions not set in stone, there have been some uncomfortable adjustments as a result of Brexit but the country isnt falling apart because of it. Covid and Putin have had much bigger impacts.
And as for the whining, the vote was almost 7 years ago, I prefer to look forward rather than cling on to a non existent past, you and the League of European Empire Loyalists still have your chance to seek to rejoin Nirvana. Maybe you could advance some positive arguments next time,
How is "better off in than out" not a positive argument?
It would have been, if only the Remain campaign had bothered to make it.
We heard little else from them.
LOL. "Worse out than in", although mathematically equivalent to "better in than out", is very different emotionally. I seem to remember we've already had this discussion in recent days.
We have - and your 'point' hasn't got any better. It's inane. Staying in the EU was the status quo. Same old same old. You can't market this as the ticket to a thrilling new life.
"Vote Remain. Let's carry on as we are. It's gonna be a blast!"
C'mon.
What you can do is what was done - stress that leaving would make us poorer and weaker. Which has duly happened, hence the consensus it was a mistake.
The bit in bold says it all. The Remain campaign was negative and argued "worse out than in" not "better in than out" - if you admit as much, why are you disagreeing with me? We agree!
What would be better than trolling - which I have limited patience for these days as you know - is if you can provide a concrete example of a big positive uplifting argument for staying in the EU that the Remain campaign should have made but didn't.
Some actual examples of things that we benefited from by being in the EU. Not described as "we will/might lose this if we leave".
Such as? Come on let's have a sample 'campaigning sentence' ...
"Perhaps THE most excellent of the many excellent things about EU membership is ... Driver to complete"
Why are you asking me? I voted Leave not least because the Remain campaign didn't come up with any examples! Unless you're implying that there are no such examples?
A person who keeps claiming the Remain campaign missed a trick by not making positive arguments for EU membership really ought to be able to give at least one example of what they mean. If they can't one would have to conclude they are ... no, let's not pre-empt matters, let's not assume you can't do this until you've failed another couple of times.
I think that the Remain campaign was rather negative - the impression was basically don't vote leave because if you do we will be worse off. Now that may well be true (seems to be) but it was not a positive message, Perhaps focussing on opportunities for the youth of the nation to work and study abroad?
The issue was that both side told lies (or possibly said what they believed to be true). I think many leavers believed that a free trade agreement with the EU was the same as being in the single market, and its now abundantly clear that that is not the case.
For the most part Remainer lies turned out to be accurate predictions.
Not all, by a long shot. Immediate recession? Immediate budget? Huge surge in unemployment?
It would decimate the car industry, food supply insecurity would lead to price rises, holiday travel would be more difficult so seats would be rationed and prices would rise, on the other hand were lies that proved more accurate.
I could go on, but we have left, we are not going back so we need to make the best of a poor hand.
The car industry is struggling in other countries too. Food prices rises are mainly down to Ukraine (basic goods like flour and energy). Has there been rationing of seats for travel? Really?
The issue we have is covid and Ukraine has dwarfed other effects. For the man in the street its easy to assume its all down to brexit, especially as a lot of Remainers keep banging that drum.
In reality some things have been contributed to by Brexit.
Eurostar only 2/3 full to accommodate for passport checks according to Simon Calder. Ferry companies told to reduce ticket sales to reduce passenger numbers to reduce passport check delays over the summer.
You won, we left, we have sucked it up and we are not going back. But please don't bullshit us by saying Brexit is great, all the bad stuff is courtesy of other circumstances and is definitely, categorically not because of Brexit.
What bad stuff? Thanks to our brilliant Brexit from the EU you can now go and live in the EU and pay barely any tax. And if you get bored of Spain you can go to Greece, Croatia or Portugal, which are offering similar visas
You absolute arse. What about everyone else who can't do that? You know 99.99% of the population. Talk about selfish.
That VD is wrong. It The set of non-Kingstonian inventors of the Venn Diagram is a null set. The pic should look like an egg cut in half. But in fairness it is not by the Maths Dept but, presumabluy, the marketing folkses.
Yes, the first set should be labelled 'People born in Hull', and the second should be labelled 'people who invented types of diagram'. And the labels should be labels, not members of the sets.
Honestly, they teach this stuff to primary school children. And those who fail to understand it get jobs in marketing
You make it sound like a failure: this is an important filtering process that enables us to identify the future marketing managers early and ensure they learn appropriate skills.
You know, like how to get the bill in any restaurant, anywhere in the world.
Thats a developed skill. You can free load on the company, the financiers think theyve avoided paying but fail to understand the moneys all coming out of the same place.
Do people who understood why Germany couldn't help Ukraine properly at first because something to do with the Nazis and WW2, now understand why Germany is deeply ashamed for not helping sooner?
yes
they were shit scared of losing gas supply, Putin screwed them and now theyre deeply ashamed for looking twats,
Remind me... How does Scotland work? Is it that the regional vote is the one that basically determines the number of seats each party has? (i.e. each party gets the Constituency seats it wins, then the regions top up to get the right numbers by the regional vote shares?)
If it's not that, it's something else really unobvious.
You get a big negative the more constituency seats you win , hence SNP usually getting next to no list MSP's normally.
- firstly capacity: the EU for bullshit reasons have said that the UK can’t use the automated gates (unlike South Korea, Australia or the US for example). That massively reduces the available capacity - from 10-20 gates to, usually, 2-4 officers - The individual checks are marginally longer. The electronic check is the same as pre-Brexit but then the officer flips through every page of the passport and stamps. I’d guesstimate it’s about 30 seconds extra per passport - We share a queue with countries that are deemed high risk so their passport checks and officer discussions take longer
In the case of Dover it’s a combination of several factors: (i) holiday demand; (ii) bad weather delaying sailings; (iii) staff shortages/work to rule by French officers who are grumbling about pay & conditions; and (iv) the elongated time required - especially with coaches where school kids have to get off the coach to be checked rather than a single teacher being able to take the passports down as a single bundle.
So part of it is normal stuff, and part of it is the French being silly and petty. So it’s not Brexit per se, but…
As I see it, Brexit allows the French to be silly and petty, and the French have chosen to take that opportunity (they weren't forced to).
So people who are blaming Brexit for this are essentially saying that the French should be expected to be silly and petty, which is rather xenophobic.
It's not as if the French were slow to turn down an opportunity to be pains in the arse at borders when we were in the EU. Sure, it was more difficult. But the argument 'if only we would do everything the French want us to then we will be able to get through borders more quickly' seems to me to fall into a 'too high a price to pay' category.
Operation Stack has been extant since 1987 - so it’s not as if the French being French, hasn’t been happening every few months for decades!
Yes, stamping of passports takes a little extra time, but the major factors are the work-to-rule by the border staff, and the recent weather.
The thing is with nearly everything Brexit is that it is nearly always another issue, but Brexit tips it over the edge unnecessarily and then people say 'Ah but it isn't Brexit it is this'.
Yes there have been queues at ports before. I have been held up on the tunnel for hours twice before Brexit, so yes there will always be times when it falls apart because of something or other, but those times are made worse by Brexit and there will be times when before Brexit it was just coping and now it won't.
The same applies to the impact on businesses. The cry goes out that the company was probably going to collapse anyway, they were barely making any profit for this reason or that. But Brexit doesn't help if it tips them over the edge and of course this applies to the more successful companies as well. Yes they will carry on being profitable, but less so.
The exclamation that it is always another reason and not Brexit is often/usually not true, both contribute. If you eliminate Brexit, it might just be you get by regardless of the other disaster (weather, overbooking, working to rule, etc)
Of course there will be times that Brexit has nothing to do with it at all and Brexit gets blamed (that's life), but equally there are examples where Brexit is not just contributory but entirely the reason for a failure, so that cuts both ways.
Absolutely. And the other point to make is that unlike COVID and Ukraine, Brexit was entirely self-inflicted and unnecessary. It is the most egregious example of a government acting contrary to what was in the country’s best interests. The Tories should never be forgiven for it.
LOL if the majority in the country voted to leave who are you to tell them theyre wrong ?
The majority of the country now think they were wrong. Who are you to tell us that our opinions were set in stone back in 2016 ?
Oh really, are you that naive ?
The current polls simply reflect a long whine from remianers blaming everything they can think of on Brexit, often when it has nothing to do with it.
What is missing is the the long list of bad news from the EU which regularly occurred when we were in. We had a taste of that in the Covid fiasco when Van der Leyen demanded all our AZ jabs.
But currently were missing the £17 billion quid handed over in times of austerity, the keep Germany's lights on diktat on pool gas resources, the dont upset Putin schtick in Ukraine we would have been tied in with via EU foreign policies, lots more immigration, and all the daily low level bollocks which just pissed people off.
The news cycle to date has mostly been one way, the polls are simply reflecting that, throw in the reality of what we have missed out on and they wont be showing those results.
Well I can see your opinion is indeed set in stone.
'Long whine' is good. As though that would persuade anyone against their will.
My opinions not set in stone, there have been some uncomfortable adjustments as a result of Brexit but the country isnt falling apart because of it. Covid and Putin have had much bigger impacts.
And as for the whining, the vote was almost 7 years ago, I prefer to look forward rather than cling on to a non existent past, you and the League of European Empire Loyalists still have your chance to seek to rejoin Nirvana. Maybe you could advance some positive arguments next time,
How is "better off in than out" not a positive argument?
It would have been, if only the Remain campaign had bothered to make it.
We heard little else from them.
LOL. "Worse out than in", although mathematically equivalent to "better in than out", is very different emotionally. I seem to remember we've already had this discussion in recent days.
We have - and your 'point' hasn't got any better. It's inane. Staying in the EU was the status quo. Same old same old. You can't market this as the ticket to a thrilling new life.
"Vote Remain. Let's carry on as we are. It's gonna be a blast!"
C'mon.
What you can do is what was done - stress that leaving would make us poorer and weaker. Which has duly happened, hence the consensus it was a mistake.
The bit in bold says it all. The Remain campaign was negative and argued "worse out than in" not "better in than out" - if you admit as much, why are you disagreeing with me? We agree!
What would be better than trolling - which I have limited patience for these days as you know - is if you can provide a concrete example of a big positive uplifting argument for staying in the EU that the Remain campaign should have made but didn't.
Some actual examples of things that we benefited from by being in the EU. Not described as "we will/might lose this if we leave".
Such as? Come on let's have a sample 'campaigning sentence' ...
"Perhaps THE most excellent of the many excellent things about EU membership is ... Driver to complete"
Why are you asking me? I voted Leave not least because the Remain campaign didn't come up with any examples! Unless you're implying that there are no such examples?
A person who keeps claiming the Remain campaign missed a trick by not making positive arguments for EU membership really ought to be able to give at least one example of what they mean. If they can't one would have to conclude they are ... no, let's not pre-empt matters, let's not assume you can't do this until you've failed another couple of times.
I think that the Remain campaign was rather negative - the impression was basically don't vote leave because if you do we will be worse off. Now that may well be true (seems to be) but it was not a positive message, Perhaps focussing on opportunities for the youth of the nation to work and study abroad?
The issue was that both side told lies (or possibly said what they believed to be true). I think many leavers believed that a free trade agreement with the EU was the same as being in the single market, and its now abundantly clear that that is not the case.
For the most part Remainer lies turned out to be accurate predictions.
Not all, by a long shot. Immediate recession? Immediate budget? Huge surge in unemployment?
It would decimate the car industry, food supply insecurity would lead to price rises, holiday travel would be more difficult so seats would be rationed and prices would rise, on the other hand were lies that proved more accurate.
I could go on, but we have left, we are not going back so we need to make the best of a poor hand.
The car industry is struggling in other countries too. Food prices rises are mainly down to Ukraine (basic goods like flour and energy). Has there been rationing of seats for travel? Really?
The issue we have is covid and Ukraine has dwarfed other effects. For the man in the street its easy to assume its all down to brexit, especially as a lot of Remainers keep banging that drum.
In reality some things have been contributed to by Brexit.
Eurostar only 2/3 full to accommodate for passport checks according to Simon Calder. Ferry companies told to reduce ticket sales to reduce passenger numbers to reduce passport check delays over the summer.
You won, we left, we have sucked it up and we are not going back. But please don't bullshit us by saying Brexit is great, all the bad stuff is courtesy of other circumstances and is definitely, categorically not because of Brexit.
What bad stuff? Thanks to our brilliant Brexit from the EU you can now go and live in the EU and pay barely any tax. And if you get bored of Spain you can go to Greece, Croatia or Portugal, which are offering similar visas
You absolute arse. What about everyone else who can't do that? You know 99.99% of the population. Talk about selfish.
Sounds not unlike the 99.9% of the population to whom the theoretical freedom to work anywhere in Europe under EU law is entirely irrelevant.
The digital nomad visa in Portugal is, like the Spanish one, ONLY open to non EU nationals
I guess this must be an issue with EU law preventing tax competition between member states? Or something? IANAL
Which means it’s probably the same in Greece and Croatia
This is a genuine tangible Brexit benefit for Brits who are able to work and live remotely. We have found one!
Of course it was unforeseeable - but that’s the nature of Brexit. It was a huge and revolutionary change, entirely unique, and you can never predict consequences years down the line, with things like that. It’s a bit like having a baby
Comments
The net effect for the rest of the UK will of course be negative, but I don't think you should let such a consideration bother you.
"Ryuichi Sakamoto: Japanese electronic music maestro dies"
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-65155073
You won, we left, we have sucked it up and we are not going back. But please don't bullshit us by saying Brexit is great, all the bad stuff is courtesy of other circumstances and is definitely, categorically not because of Brexit.
https://twitter.com/electionmapsuk/status/1643284330809049088?s=61&t=s0ae0IFncdLS1Dc7J0P_TQ
SNP leads Labour by 5 points in Scotland. In 2019, Labour came third.
Scotland Westminster VI (31 March - 1 April):
SNP 36% (-3)
Labour 31% (+2)
Conservative 19% (-3)
Lib Dem 10% (+4)
Green 2% (–)
Reform 2% (–)
Other 1% (–)
Changes +/- 2-5 March
https://twitter.com/RedfieldWilton/status/1643283634827214849
Humza Yousaf Approval Rating in Scotland (31 March-1 April):
Disapprove: 30%
Approve: 23%
Net: -7%
https://twitter.com/RedfieldWilton/status/1643286105435807746
Holyrood Constituency VI (31 March-1 April):
SNP 38% (-2)
Labour 28% (-1)
Conservative 18% (-2)
Lib Dem 10% (+3)
Green 3% (+1)
Reform 2% (–)
Other 2% (+1)
Changes +/- 2-5 March
SNP leads Labour by 6% in regional VI for a Scottish parliamentary election.
Holyrood Regional List VI (31 March-1 April):
SNP 30% (+1)
Labour 24% (-2)
Conservatives 19% (-1)
Lib Dems 13% (+2)
Green Party 11% (+1)
Reform UK 2% (+1)
Other 2% (-1)
https://twitter.com/RedfieldWilton/status/1643285052862742530
There has to be at least something in its favour.
LAB: 25 (+24)
SNP: 22 (-26)
CON: 7 (+1)
LDM: 5 (+1)
Changes w/ GE2019.
CON +1 is a brave prediction.
you havent mentioned the bus.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=02IvYUAJbtY
Scotland Independence Referendum Voting Intention (31 March - 1 April):
No, against Independence: 50% (-1)
Yes, for Independence: 44% (+2)
Don't Know: 6% (-2)
Changes +/- 2-5 March
https://twitter.com/RedfieldWilton/status/1643282283783233540
They know that Trump would sell a million T-shirts with his mugshot on the front, it would be the most famous mugshot since Hugh Grant.
If it's not that, it's something else really unobvious.
That said I will still laugh at anyone who still believes in it though. Sorry!
Only, when we stop giving regular reminders, we are told that those who voted for it 'have gone very quiet' or get told to 'own it' or 'take the win'.
Carlotta's diligence in posting trans related material is commendable.
"In Venn diagrams, the curves are overlapped in every possible way, showing all possible relations between the sets. They are thus a special case of Euler diagrams, which do not necessarily show all relations."
Brexit was pointless. Dumb, stupid. You know it, but you cannot bring yourself to admit that as an intelligent person you were well and truly gulled. We have got over that we lost. You should get over that you were stupid.
I'm having a tooth extracted tomorrow.
The pain is so bad I'd eat a pizza with pineapple on it if it got rid of the pain.
https://www.thelocal.de/20230207/real-wages-fell-at-record-speed-in-germany-last-year
The surprise is that the "this was a mistake" sensation has set in as much as it has.
OMG what a terrible mistake
Creep is still one of the finest songs in history.
Another Brexit argument with polarised views
My attitude is that we have left the EU and the discussion should be how we improve our relationship with the EU without opening the can of worms that rejoining would cause
To be fair both Sunak and Starmer get it, with both much on the same page wanting closer friendship and cooperation without the full political project being resurrected
I know many have been seriously upset by Brexit but the future lies with the centre and not the nastiness from both sides and in particular @Roger unacceptable comments today about the late Lord Lawson
You know, like how to get the bill in any restaurant, anywhere in the world.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/food/recipes/hawaiian_spaghetti_67939
I'm glad to see its rating is only one and a half stars
Not enjoying the soft foods or the salt water...
Really nice on pizzas with anchovies.
£1.70 for Heinz soup!
Today was the day the cost of living crisis became real for me.
Satisfied 32% (+5)
Dissatisfied 54% (-5)
Starmer
Satisfied 31% (-3)
Dissatisfied 51% (+5)
Ipsos"
https://www.waitrose.com/ecom/products/baxters-chef-selections-cullen-skink/091855-47302-47303?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIvpb52tqQ_gIVjevtCh11GgvbEAQYBiABEgIjJ_D_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds
Except maybe more so, as immigration has increased?
37% (+4) to 36 (-3)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N7kHi2gffeY
they were shit scared of losing gas supply, Putin screwed them and now theyre deeply ashamed for looking twats,
I shall get some tomorrow.
I guess this must be an issue with EU law preventing tax competition between member states? Or something? IANAL
Which means it’s probably the same in Greece and Croatia
This is a genuine tangible Brexit benefit for Brits who are able to work and live remotely. We have found one!
Of course it was unforeseeable - but that’s the nature of Brexit. It was a huge and revolutionary change, entirely unique, and you can never predict consequences years down the line, with things like that. It’s a bit like having a baby