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Biden now clear betting favourite to win WH2024 – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 11,002
edited April 2023 in General
imageBiden now clear betting favourite to win WH2024 – politicalbetting.com

If those who gamble on American politics have got this right then next year’s White House Race will be between the two nominees from 2020 and two very old men.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 7,981
    At that age they could both be dead by election day
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,928
    edited March 2023
    Buttigieg is already rumoured to be Biden's VP nominee if he wins the Democratic nomination again in 2024, particularly given his appeal to key white, graduate suburban swing voters who voted for Bush, Obama in 2008, narrowly for Romney in 2012, then Trump in 2016, then Biden in 2020. He would shift Harris to State or the SC.

    Buttigieg would then be in prime position to be Democratic candidate in 2028 assuming Biden is re elected.

    National polling numbers at this stage should not be overstated however, if DeSantis and Pence perform well against Trump in Iowa and New Hampshire they will be right back in contention for the GOP nomination
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 5,231
    Well, at the risk of re-stating old arguments, attitudes to ageing are very different between the UK and US.

    It is quite normal in the US for physically fit people to continue to live the American dream: to work hard into their seventies, eighties, and even nineties. Senator Strom Thurmond was a Senator at 100! Utterly unthinkable in the UK.

    They don't have the same view of putting themselves out to grass.

    That doesn't mean they are right and that Mike is wrong. I'm just pointing out that it's perfectly de rigueur in the US.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,319
    De Santis is a loon....
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,319

    All right thinking people will be hoping Biden wins.

    The alternative is just too ghastly to contemplate.

    Let's hope he stays alive long enough to win.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 24,183
    HYUFD said:

    Buttigieg is already rumoured to be Biden's VP nominee if he wins the Democratic nomination again in 2024, particularly given his appeal to key white, graduate suburban swing voters who voted for Bush, Obama in 2008, narrowly for Romney in 2012, then Trump in 2016, then Biden in 2020. He would shift Harris to State or the SC.

    Buttigieg would then be in prime position to be Democratic candidate in 2028 assuming Biden is re elected.

    National polling numbers at this stage should not be overstated however, if DeSantis and Pence perform well against Trump in Iowa and New Hampshire they will be right back in contention for the GOP nomination

    For Buttigieg to be the VP nominee, the deep state would need to assassinate one of the judges so Kamala can join the Supreme Court bench. Bluntly, unless the Dems want Trump back in the White House, Kamala Harris will need to be bought off. She can't just be dropped without splitting the party.
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 7,981

    All right thinking people will be hoping Biden wins.

    The alternative is just too ghastly to contemplate.

    Trump vs President Harris... ?
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,963

    All right thinking people will be hoping Biden wins.

    The alternative is just too ghastly to contemplate.

    A Hillary comeback?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,087
    Matt Hancock? Ten grand a day?

    I'd pay him 20,000 a day.

    He could even keep the change. From a Zimbabwean 10 trillion dollar note.
  • solarflaresolarflare Posts: 3,623
    "As a 76 year-old myself I believe that this is far too old for anyone to be seeking the most powerful political position in the world."

    This is Mike's clever double bluff to stop people thinking he's going for world domination.
  • I hope it's time for Pete
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    😂 x 10,000
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,194
    Heathener said:

    Well, at the risk of re-stating old arguments, attitudes to ageing are very different between the UK and US.

    It is quite normal in the US for physically fit people to continue to live the American dream: to work hard into their seventies, eighties, and even nineties. Senator Strom Thurmond was a Senator at 100! Utterly unthinkable in the UK…

    Yes, we don’t have Senators.

  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,275

    "As a 76 year-old myself I believe that this is far too old for anyone to be seeking the most powerful political position in the world."

    This is Mike's clever double bluff to stop people thinking he's going for world domination.

    I think our host would do a better job than Biden.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,905

    De Santis is a loon....

    He's Canadian?
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,222
    edited March 2023

    "As a 76 year-old myself I believe that this is far too old for anyone to be seeking the most powerful political position in the world."

    This is Mike's clever double bluff to stop people thinking he's going for world domination.

    At the next GE in October 24 I will be 80 + 8 months and the idea of Biden being POTUS for another term is nonsense despite some saying it is the way in the US
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,275
    edited March 2023
    Fpt

    ...

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    I have ordered the pork belly with dauphinoise potatoes, carrots and a red wine jus. A pint of Surrey Nirvana to wash it down.

    It will probably be the Baileys Creme Brulee for dessert. Maybe the cheese board too with a port.

    What no photos? Anyway, welcome back Leon.
    Here's the main.


    Is that vegan "pork"?
    Looks like the plate is upside down! Still, at least it's not been served on an old shovel or any other pretentious wank!
    You're just jealous.

    Nothing to stop you ordering the same or having a surreptitiously danger-wank over it later on.
    Casino, mate, genuinely we need to stop this little vegan/meat eater spat. I only tell you to go vegan because I know it winds you up. For what it's worth, my veganism isn't a religion, it's just a dietary and lifestyle choice after re assessing my own health and fitness after my wife's brush with breast cancer. Plus equally importantly, we really should be kinder to non humans and the planet in general. It's not down to me to judge how anyone else eats. So enjoy that pork, yer dirty meat eating bastard!🤣🤪
    Well done for taking stock of your health and fitness - that's great. Veganism sadly is unlikely to help you acheive your long term health and fitness goals, as the diet is very poor in nutrient dense health-giving foods, and it denies the vegan a lot of the foods like butter and eggs that can help to ameliorate a vegetarian diet. A human cannot live a healthy and full life on a vegan diet, without fortifying their diet with synthetic b-vitamins, which I hope you're taking care of. You may also struggle with Vitamin D, iron, calcium, and others.

    I would advise you to introduce some foods brought to us by the animal kingdom, for example, eggs from hens you keep or a trusted ethical supplier, or plain yoghurt made with organic milk.
    Cheers, mate, but I'm sorry, you're factually incorrect on the nutritional aspects of a well balanced vegan diet. I don't struggle getting any essential nutrients and vitamins. As with anything, we all research information from our own chosen sources, so we'll have to agree to disagree .
    No, I'm correct. There are no plant foods that can be shown to contain Vitamin B12 in sufficient quantity/bioavailability for human needs, hence things like plant milks, cereals, marmite etc. often being fortified with synthetic B12. This is not subject to debate, and you're welcome to research it from any source you'd like.

    I am glad you have the zeal of the converted, and I am sure your current dietary regime has many benefits over your old regime, but you should perhaps try and see this as the beginning of your learning journey rather than the end.
    It's not zeal, it's just well researched. You are of course correct about the B12. It's the only supplement I take, but I just disagree with you that a vegan diet is unhealthy.
    Since B12 is synthesised by bacteria (including that from animal sources), it's hardly impossible to obtain it in a vegan diet.
    It's not impossible, but I was advised by my GP at my last medical to think about a B12 as it's the one contentious element in a well balanced vegan diet. I could just eat soil like the animals do!
    Sure. Point is that the supplements are as 'natural' as anything Luckguy gets from his diet.
    I don't know about B12 supplements, but a lot of vitamins and minerals are better sourced naturally in foods for many reasons, as Iain has argued. They tend to be better absorbed, often have a different chemical profile (natural vitamin C is different from just 'ascorbic acid' and works better as an antioxidant), and they are often accompanied naturally within food by complementary vitamins, minerals, fats, etc., that the body also needs to make them work as they should. Calcium is a good example; it should be accompanied by a certain amount of magnesium, vitamin k, and (I think) vitamin D to work as it should, so you definitely won't get the same benefit from just taking some Calcium carbonate (common name chalk) than you would by eating some natural yoghurt of drinking some raw milk.
    Utter rubbish. Natural vitamin C and synthetic are identical. Where a natural source may differ will be in providing other components that may aid absorption.
    No it isn't 'utter rubbish', naturally occuring Vitamin C is a complex nutrient that has:
    Ascorbic acid
    Ascorbigon
    Tyrosinase
    J factors
    K factors
    P factors
    Rutin
    Bioflavonoids
    All working together to produce the antioxidant effect (yes I got that list from a web page - I was just aware of the overall concept).

    Synthetic vitamin C takes one part of this, ascorbic acid, produced by boiling corn starch, and isolates it. To use this, the body has to leach all that other stuff from your own stores.

    It's not a horrendous thing, but clearly naturally occuring vitamin C will be much more effective.

    Furthermore, despite some totally unwarranted snark about 'as natural as anything in Luckyguy's diet', I responded civilly and in detail to NigelB, so I am not sure I deserved you to jump in with your size 11 steel toecaps. You could try being a little more polite next time, with the added benefit that you won't be made to look an utter twat.
  • BlancheLivermoreBlancheLivermore Posts: 5,181
    edited March 2023
    I've walked just over 2,000 miles in the last year

    And I've been a postie for six months of that

    I'm planning a holiday where I'll need to walk about 400 miles in three weeks

    Is that completely fucking mad?
  • Biden Vs Trump. What a shitshow. 360 million people and they get the choice of those two old duffers. I hope Trump wins, he does something barmy (not as barmy as nuclear war, though), then there's a bit of anarchy, he gets locked up and it all sorts itself out and someone younger and saner gets the gig.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,905

    Biden Vs Trump. What a shitshow. 360 million people and they get the choice of those two old duffers. I hope Trump wins, he does something barmy (not as barmy as nuclear war, though), then there's a bit of anarchy, he gets locked up and it all sorts itself out and someone younger and saner gets the gig.

    On the positive side, neither is Putin.
  • rcs1000 said:

    Biden Vs Trump. What a shitshow. 360 million people and they get the choice of those two old duffers. I hope Trump wins, he does something barmy (not as barmy as nuclear war, though), then there's a bit of anarchy, he gets locked up and it all sorts itself out and someone younger and saner gets the gig.

    On the positive side, neither is Putin.
    I think the Donald would like to be!
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,187
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,893
    tlg86 said:
    Could get really nasty!
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,539

    Fpt

    ...

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    I have ordered the pork belly with dauphinoise potatoes, carrots and a red wine jus. A pint of Surrey Nirvana to wash it down.

    It will probably be the Baileys Creme Brulee for dessert. Maybe the cheese board too with a port.

    What no photos? Anyway, welcome back Leon.
    Here's the main.


    Is that vegan "pork"?
    Looks like the plate is upside down! Still, at least it's not been served on an old shovel or any other pretentious wank!
    You're just jealous.

    Nothing to stop you ordering the same or having a surreptitiously danger-wank over it later on.
    Casino, mate, genuinely we need to stop this little vegan/meat eater spat. I only tell you to go vegan because I know it winds you up. For what it's worth, my veganism isn't a religion, it's just a dietary and lifestyle choice after re assessing my own health and fitness after my wife's brush with breast cancer. Plus equally importantly, we really should be kinder to non humans and the planet in general. It's not down to me to judge how anyone else eats. So enjoy that pork, yer dirty meat eating bastard!🤣🤪
    Well done for taking stock of your health and fitness - that's great. Veganism sadly is unlikely to help you acheive your long term health and fitness goals, as the diet is very poor in nutrient dense health-giving foods, and it denies the vegan a lot of the foods like butter and eggs that can help to ameliorate a vegetarian diet. A human cannot live a healthy and full life on a vegan diet, without fortifying their diet with synthetic b-vitamins, which I hope you're taking care of. You may also struggle with Vitamin D, iron, calcium, and others.

    I would advise you to introduce some foods brought to us by the animal kingdom, for example, eggs from hens you keep or a trusted ethical supplier, or plain yoghurt made with organic milk.
    Cheers, mate, but I'm sorry, you're factually incorrect on the nutritional aspects of a well balanced vegan diet. I don't struggle getting any essential nutrients and vitamins. As with anything, we all research information from our own chosen sources, so we'll have to agree to disagree .
    No, I'm correct. There are no plant foods that can be shown to contain Vitamin B12 in sufficient quantity/bioavailability for human needs, hence things like plant milks, cereals, marmite etc. often being fortified with synthetic B12. This is not subject to debate, and you're welcome to research it from any source you'd like.

    I am glad you have the zeal of the converted, and I am sure your current dietary regime has many benefits over your old regime, but you should perhaps try and see this as the beginning of your learning journey rather than the end.
    It's not zeal, it's just well researched. You are of course correct about the B12. It's the only supplement I take, but I just disagree with you that a vegan diet is unhealthy.
    Since B12 is synthesised by bacteria (including that from animal sources), it's hardly impossible to obtain it in a vegan diet.
    It's not impossible, but I was advised by my GP at my last medical to think about a B12 as it's the one contentious element in a well balanced vegan diet. I could just eat soil like the animals do!
    Sure. Point is that the supplements are as 'natural' as anything Luckguy gets from his diet.
    I don't know about B12 supplements, but a lot of vitamins and minerals are better sourced naturally in foods for many reasons, as Iain has argued. They tend to be better absorbed, often have a different chemical profile (natural vitamin C is different from just 'ascorbic acid' and works better as an antioxidant), and they are often accompanied naturally within food by complementary vitamins, minerals, fats, etc., that the body also needs to make them work as they should. Calcium is a good example; it should be accompanied by a certain amount of magnesium, vitamin k, and (I think) vitamin D to work as it should, so you definitely won't get the same benefit from just taking some Calcium carbonate (common name chalk) than you would by eating some natural yoghurt of drinking some raw milk.
    Utter rubbish. Natural vitamin C and synthetic are identical. Where a natural source may differ will be in providing other components that may aid absorption.
    No it isn't 'utter rubbish', naturally occuring Vitamin C is a complex nutrient that has:
    Ascorbic acid
    Ascorbigon
    Tyrosinase
    J factors
    K factors
    P factors
    Rutin
    Bioflavonoids
    All working together to produce the antioxidant effect (yes I got that list from a web page - I was just aware of the overall concept).

    Synthetic vitamin C takes one part of this, ascorbic acid, produced by boiling corn starch, and isolates it. To use this, the body has to leach all that other stuff from your own stores.

    It's not a horrendous thing, but clearly naturally occuring vitamin C will be much more effective.

    Furthermore, despite some totally unwarranted snark about 'as natural as anything in Luckyguy's diet', I responded civilly and in detail to NigelB, so I am not sure I deserved you to jump in with your size 11 steel toecaps. You could try being a little more polite next time, with the added benefit that you won't be made to look an utter twat.
    Those are designed by the plant to suit itself, not its predators.

  • fox327fox327 Posts: 365
    Heathener said:

    Well, at the risk of re-stating old arguments, attitudes to ageing are very different between the UK and US.

    It is quite normal in the US for physically fit people to continue to live the American dream: to work hard into their seventies, eighties, and even nineties. Senator Strom Thurmond was a Senator at 100! Utterly unthinkable in the UK.

    They don't have the same view of putting themselves out to grass.

    That doesn't mean they are right and that Mike is wrong. I'm just pointing out that it's perfectly de rigueur in the US.

    A classic example of this phenomenon is John B. Goodenough, winner of the Nobel Prize in Chemistry in 2019 at the age of about 96. He did research into lithium ion batteries in the 1970s and 80s at Oxford University. In the 1980s he was head of the Inorganic Chemistry laboratory at Oxford, but he had to retire due to the university's policies on age. He then transferred to the USA, where he is still working as a researcher at The University of Texas at Austin, and is now aged 100.
  • I've walked just over 2,000 miles in the last year

    And I've been a postie for six months of that

    I'm planning a holiday where I'll need to walk about 400 miles in three weeks

    Is that completely fucking mad?

    No, not remotely

    I has a desk job and have walked an average of 20km / day for the last 7 years.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 15,073
    edited March 2023

    Fpt

    ...

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    I have ordered the pork belly with dauphinoise potatoes, carrots and a red wine jus. A pint of Surrey Nirvana to wash it down.

    It will probably be the Baileys Creme Brulee for dessert. Maybe the cheese board too with a port.

    What no photos? Anyway, welcome back Leon.
    Here's the main.


    Is that vegan "pork"?
    Looks like the plate is upside down! Still, at least it's not been served on an old shovel or any other pretentious wank!
    You're just jealous.

    Nothing to stop you ordering the same or having a surreptitiously danger-wank over it later on.
    Casino, mate, genuinely we need to stop this little vegan/meat eater spat. I only tell you to go vegan because I know it winds you up. For what it's worth, my veganism isn't a religion, it's just a dietary and lifestyle choice after re assessing my own health and fitness after my wife's brush with breast cancer. Plus equally importantly, we really should be kinder to non humans and the planet in general. It's not down to me to judge how anyone else eats. So enjoy that pork, yer dirty meat eating bastard!🤣🤪
    Well done for taking stock of your health and fitness - that's great. Veganism sadly is unlikely to help you acheive your long term health and fitness goals, as the diet is very poor in nutrient dense health-giving foods, and it denies the vegan a lot of the foods like butter and eggs that can help to ameliorate a vegetarian diet. A human cannot live a healthy and full life on a vegan diet, without fortifying their diet with synthetic b-vitamins, which I hope you're taking care of. You may also struggle with Vitamin D, iron, calcium, and others.

    I would advise you to introduce some foods brought to us by the animal kingdom, for example, eggs from hens you keep or a trusted ethical supplier, or plain yoghurt made with organic milk.
    Cheers, mate, but I'm sorry, you're factually incorrect on the nutritional aspects of a well balanced vegan diet. I don't struggle getting any essential nutrients and vitamins. As with anything, we all research information from our own chosen sources, so we'll have to agree to disagree .
    No, I'm correct. There are no plant foods that can be shown to contain Vitamin B12 in sufficient quantity/bioavailability for human needs, hence things like plant milks, cereals, marmite etc. often being fortified with synthetic B12. This is not subject to debate, and you're welcome to research it from any source you'd like.

    I am glad you have the zeal of the converted, and I am sure your current dietary regime has many benefits over your old regime, but you should perhaps try and see this as the beginning of your learning journey rather than the end.
    It's not zeal, it's just well researched. You are of course correct about the B12. It's the only supplement I take, but I just disagree with you that a vegan diet is unhealthy.
    Since B12 is synthesised by bacteria (including that from animal sources), it's hardly impossible to obtain it in a vegan diet.
    It's not impossible, but I was advised by my GP at my last medical to think about a B12 as it's the one contentious element in a well balanced vegan diet. I could just eat soil like the animals do!
    Sure. Point is that the supplements are as 'natural' as anything Luckguy gets from his diet.
    I don't know about B12 supplements, but a lot of vitamins and minerals are better sourced naturally in foods for many reasons, as Iain has argued. They tend to be better absorbed, often have a different chemical profile (natural vitamin C is different from just 'ascorbic acid' and works better as an antioxidant), and they are often accompanied naturally within food by complementary vitamins, minerals, fats, etc., that the body also needs to make them work as they should. Calcium is a good example; it should be accompanied by a certain amount of magnesium, vitamin k, and (I think) vitamin D to work as it should, so you definitely won't get the same benefit from just taking some Calcium carbonate (common name chalk) than you would by eating some natural yoghurt of drinking some raw milk.
    Utter rubbish. Natural vitamin C and synthetic are identical. Where a natural source may differ will be in providing other components that may aid absorption.
    No it isn't 'utter rubbish', naturally occuring Vitamin C is a complex nutrient that has:
    Ascorbic acid
    Ascorbigon
    Tyrosinase
    J factors
    K factors
    P factors
    Rutin
    Bioflavonoids
    All working together to produce the antioxidant effect (yes I got that list from a web page - I was just aware of the overall concept).

    Synthetic vitamin C takes one part of this, ascorbic acid, produced by boiling corn starch, and isolates it. To use this, the body has to leach all that other stuff from your own stores.

    It's not a horrendous thing, but clearly naturally occuring vitamin C will be much more effective.

    Furthermore, despite some totally unwarranted snark about 'as natural as anything in Luckyguy's diet', I responded civilly and in detail to NigelB, so I am not sure I deserved you to jump in with your size 11 steel toecaps. You could try being a little more polite next time, with the added benefit that you won't be made to look an utter twat.
    Nope. Vitamin C is ascorbic acid. I’ll give you the salts of the acid too if you like. The rest are other things, yes cofactors, as I said - other elements that may assist with absorption (and other effects). But at heart, vitamin C is not different from synthetic vitamin C.
    If you are arguing that it’s better to get it from diet, I totally agree with you. I just hate the concept that natural chemicals are somehow different from synthetic.
  • BlancheLivermoreBlancheLivermore Posts: 5,181
    edited March 2023

    I've walked just over 2,000 miles in the last year

    And I've been a postie for six months of that

    I'm planning a holiday where I'll need to walk about 400 miles in three weeks

    Is that completely fucking mad?

    No, not remotely

    I has a desk job and have walked an average of 20km / day for the last 7 years.
    I'm planning about 32 km per day with no rest days

    That's 40 km per day with four rest days

    That's a pilgrimage

    It used to traditionally be done in four weeks

    I've made it a three week race
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 15,073

    Fpt

    ...

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    I have ordered the pork belly with dauphinoise potatoes, carrots and a red wine jus. A pint of Surrey Nirvana to wash it down.

    It will probably be the Baileys Creme Brulee for dessert. Maybe the cheese board too with a port.

    What no photos? Anyway, welcome back Leon.
    Here's the main.


    Is that vegan "pork"?
    Looks like the plate is upside down! Still, at least it's not been served on an old shovel or any other pretentious wank!
    You're just jealous.

    Nothing to stop you ordering the same or having a surreptitiously danger-wank over it later on.
    Casino, mate, genuinely we need to stop this little vegan/meat eater spat. I only tell you to go vegan because I know it winds you up. For what it's worth, my veganism isn't a religion, it's just a dietary and lifestyle choice after re assessing my own health and fitness after my wife's brush with breast cancer. Plus equally importantly, we really should be kinder to non humans and the planet in general. It's not down to me to judge how anyone else eats. So enjoy that pork, yer dirty meat eating bastard!🤣🤪
    Well done for taking stock of your health and fitness - that's great. Veganism sadly is unlikely to help you acheive your long term health and fitness goals, as the diet is very poor in nutrient dense health-giving foods, and it denies the vegan a lot of the foods like butter and eggs that can help to ameliorate a vegetarian diet. A human cannot live a healthy and full life on a vegan diet, without fortifying their diet with synthetic b-vitamins, which I hope you're taking care of. You may also struggle with Vitamin D, iron, calcium, and others.

    I would advise you to introduce some foods brought to us by the animal kingdom, for example, eggs from hens you keep or a trusted ethical supplier, or plain yoghurt made with organic milk.
    Cheers, mate, but I'm sorry, you're factually incorrect on the nutritional aspects of a well balanced vegan diet. I don't struggle getting any essential nutrients and vitamins. As with anything, we all research information from our own chosen sources, so we'll have to agree to disagree .
    No, I'm correct. There are no plant foods that can be shown to contain Vitamin B12 in sufficient quantity/bioavailability for human needs, hence things like plant milks, cereals, marmite etc. often being fortified with synthetic B12. This is not subject to debate, and you're welcome to research it from any source you'd like.

    I am glad you have the zeal of the converted, and I am sure your current dietary regime has many benefits over your old regime, but you should perhaps try and see this as the beginning of your learning journey rather than the end.
    It's not zeal, it's just well researched. You are of course correct about the B12. It's the only supplement I take, but I just disagree with you that a vegan diet is unhealthy.
    Since B12 is synthesised by bacteria (including that from animal sources), it's hardly impossible to obtain it in a vegan diet.
    It's not impossible, but I was advised by my GP at my last medical to think about a B12 as it's the one contentious element in a well balanced vegan diet. I could just eat soil like the animals do!
    Sure. Point is that the supplements are as 'natural' as anything Luckguy gets from his diet.
    I don't know about B12 supplements, but a lot of vitamins and minerals are better sourced naturally in foods for many reasons, as Iain has argued. They tend to be better absorbed, often have a different chemical profile (natural vitamin C is different from just 'ascorbic acid' and works better as an antioxidant), and they are often accompanied naturally within food by complementary vitamins, minerals, fats, etc., that the body also needs to make them work as they should. Calcium is a good example; it should be accompanied by a certain amount of magnesium, vitamin k, and (I think) vitamin D to work as it should, so you definitely won't get the same benefit from just taking some Calcium carbonate (common name chalk) than you would by eating some natural yoghurt of drinking some raw milk.
    Utter rubbish. Natural vitamin C and synthetic are identical. Where a natural source may differ will be in providing other components that may aid absorption.
    No it isn't 'utter rubbish', naturally occuring Vitamin C is a complex nutrient that has:
    Ascorbic acid
    Ascorbigon
    Tyrosinase
    J factors
    K factors
    P factors
    Rutin
    Bioflavonoids
    All working together to produce the antioxidant effect (yes I got that list from a web page - I was just aware of the overall concept).

    Synthetic vitamin C takes one part of this, ascorbic acid, produced by boiling corn starch, and isolates it. To use this, the body has to leach all that other stuff from your own stores.

    It's not a horrendous thing, but clearly naturally occuring vitamin C will be much more effective.

    Furthermore, despite some totally unwarranted snark about 'as natural as anything in Luckyguy's diet', I responded civilly and in detail to NigelB, so I am not sure I deserved you to jump in with your size 11 steel toecaps. You could try being a little more polite next time, with the added benefit that you won't be made to look an utter twat.
    Nope. Vitamin C is ascorbic acid. I’ll give you the salts of the acid too if you like. The rest are other things, yes cofactors, as I said - other elements that may assist with absorption (and other effects). But at heart, vitamin C is not different from synthetic vitamin C.
    If you are arguing that it’s better to get it from diet, I totally agree with you. I just hate the concept that natural chemicals are somehow different from synthetic.
    Also, apols for seeming rude. Not intentional, but pretty badly phrased by me.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,018
    Trump? Can a President serve from a cell at Leavenworth?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,928
    edited March 2023

    HYUFD said:

    Buttigieg is already rumoured to be Biden's VP nominee if he wins the Democratic nomination again in 2024, particularly given his appeal to key white, graduate suburban swing voters who voted for Bush, Obama in 2008, narrowly for Romney in 2012, then Trump in 2016, then Biden in 2020. He would shift Harris to State or the SC.

    Buttigieg would then be in prime position to be Democratic candidate in 2028 assuming Biden is re elected.

    National polling numbers at this stage should not be overstated however, if DeSantis and Pence perform well against Trump in Iowa and New Hampshire they will be right back in contention for the GOP nomination

    For Buttigieg to be the VP nominee, the deep state would need to assassinate one of the judges so Kamala can join the Supreme Court bench. Bluntly, unless the Dems want Trump back in the White House, Kamala Harris will need to be bought off. She can't just be dropped without splitting the party.
    Yes she can, she is not very popular with the Black vote. Indeed in 2020 Biden-Harris got a lower share of the black vote than even Hillary did in 2016, let alone Obama in 2008 and 2012.

    Biden only won because he won White suburban voters who had voted for Trump in 2016. Biden will switch Harris to Secretary of State and make Buttigieg his VP nominee to appeal to those white suburban voters
  • stodgestodge Posts: 12,812
    Evening all :)

    I find it curious to hear some saying Biden is too old to be President for a second term yet we have a Government one of whose primary economic aims is to bring more older people back into the workplace.

    Curiously, 71% of over 50s trying to get back into the workplace experience ageism so the Government's desire to bring older people back into work isn't the desire of business it would seem.

    Perhaps it's time to consider quotas so we can have a genuinely multi-generational workforce.

    We also had someone on here quoting a Julie Burchill piece so riven with inaccuracies and misconceptions it could pass for a political manifesto. She bases her argument on the Census Day report in 2021 showing 57% of adults over 16 in employment and builds the familiar old diatribe about the perils of WFH and how we've all become work shy and lazy (forgive me as I stifle a yawn). The problem is the correct figure is 78% according to that bunch of lefties, the CBI:

    https://www.cbi.org.uk/media/bm0aiob5/14032023-cbi-pertemps-labour-market-update-mar_2023.pdf

    There are just under 9 million economically inactive but only 20% of that group are looking for work - perhaps we should also note the rate of unemployment among those with disabilities compared to the national rate.In addition, 1 million women are carers - how do we make work a viable activity for them?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,928
    tlg86 said:
    Interestingly this one is Macron + Les Republicains v Melenchon's left block +Le Pen.

  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,087

    Trump? Can a President serve from a cell at Leavenworth?

    Probably yes. It wouldn't debar him from standing.
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 4,339

    I've walked just over 2,000 miles in the last year

    And I've been a postie for six months of that

    I'm planning a holiday where I'll need to walk about 400 miles in three weeks

    Is that completely fucking mad?

    Only if you go on to walk 400 more.
  • "As a 76 year-old myself I believe that this is far too old for anyone to be seeking the most powerful political position in the world."

    This is Mike's clever double bluff to stop people thinking he's going for world domination.

    At the next GE in October 24 I will be 80 + 8 months and the idea of Biden being POTUS for another term is nonsense despite some saying it is the way in the US
    At 80, even 82, on reflection, I could have handled all sorts of challenges. Now at nearly 85 I’m in a similar condition to FDR.
    Mentally I’m fine. Physically I’m not!
    You make an excellent point

    Biden shows lapses of concentration even now, but reductions in mobility become much more frequent and irreversible as you age
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 15,456

    De Santis is a loon....

    Ron DeSantis = Viktor Orban in a Palm Beach suit (figuratively speaking).
  • jamesdoylejamesdoyle Posts: 635
    rcs1000 said:

    Biden Vs Trump. What a shitshow. 360 million people and they get the choice of those two old duffers. I hope Trump wins, he does something barmy (not as barmy as nuclear war, though), then there's a bit of anarchy, he gets locked up and it all sorts itself out and someone younger and saner gets the gig.

    On the positive side, neither is Putin.
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Buttigieg is already rumoured to be Biden's VP nominee if he wins the Democratic nomination again in 2024, particularly given his appeal to key white, graduate suburban swing voters who voted for Bush, Obama in 2008, narrowly for Romney in 2012, then Trump in 2016, then Biden in 2020. He would shift Harris to State or the SC.

    Buttigieg would then be in prime position to be Democratic candidate in 2028 assuming Biden is re elected.

    National polling numbers at this stage should not be overstated however, if DeSantis and Pence perform well against Trump in Iowa and New Hampshire they will be right back in contention for the GOP nomination

    For Buttigieg to be the VP nominee, the deep state would need to assassinate one of the judges so Kamala can join the Supreme Court bench. Bluntly, unless the Dems want Trump back in the White House, Kamala Harris will need to be bought off. She can't just be dropped without splitting the party.
    Yes she can, she is not very popular with the Black vote. Indeed in 2020 Biden-Harris got a lower share of the black vote than even Hillary did in 2016, let alone Obama in 2008 and 2012.

    Biden only won because he won White suburban voters who had voted for Trump in 2016. Biden will switch Harris to Secretary of State and make Buttigieg his VP nominee to appeal to those white suburban voters
    There's a big difference between KH being unpopular with the black vote (if she is, I'm not sure), and how black voters would react to a black female VP being removed for a white man. If she can get a 'promotion' to the SC, that might be sellable. But I'm not convinced yet.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,154

    I've walked just over 2,000 miles in the last year

    And I've been a postie for six months of that

    I'm planning a holiday where I'll need to walk about 400 miles in three weeks

    Is that completely fucking mad?

    No, not remotely

    I has a desk job and have walked an average of 20km / day for the last 7 years.
    I'm planning about 32 km per day with no rest days

    That's 40 km per day with four rest days

    That's a pilgrimage

    It used to traditionally be done in four weeks

    I've made it a three week race
    Any particular reason? Or are you just setting yourself a goal?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,087

    "As a 76 year-old myself I believe that this is far too old for anyone to be seeking the most powerful political position in the world."

    This is Mike's clever double bluff to stop people thinking he's going for world domination.

    At the next GE in October 24 I will be 80 + 8 months and the idea of Biden being POTUS for another term is nonsense despite some saying it is the way in the US
    At 80, even 82, on reflection, I could have handled all sorts of challenges. Now at nearly 85 I’m in a similar condition to FDR.
    Mentally I’m fine. Physically I’m not!
    You make an excellent point

    Biden shows lapses of concentration even now, but reductions in mobility become much more frequent and irreversible as you age
    But he would have Mob1, the most high-tech mobility scooter in the world. Satellite communications, bomb-proof, 0-60 in 3.6 seconds. Even a holder for the nuclear codes football.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,768
    Well... for starters there's no guarantee Biden will even be alive in November 2024.

    He is three years past average life expectancy for a US male so anything he gets from here is a bonus..
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,768
    edited March 2023

    De Santis is a loon....

    I didn't know anything about De Santis but I saw the interview he did with Piers Morgan the other day and I thought he actually carried himself quite well.

    Certainly out of Trump Vs De Santis it's hard to believe anyone would pick Don over Ron? 🤷‍♂️

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oWJsOaJL9yg
  • MattWMattW Posts: 18,326
    fox327 said:

    Heathener said:

    Well, at the risk of re-stating old arguments, attitudes to ageing are very different between the UK and US.

    It is quite normal in the US for physically fit people to continue to live the American dream: to work hard into their seventies, eighties, and even nineties. Senator Strom Thurmond was a Senator at 100! Utterly unthinkable in the UK.

    They don't have the same view of putting themselves out to grass.

    That doesn't mean they are right and that Mike is wrong. I'm just pointing out that it's perfectly de rigueur in the US.

    A classic example of this phenomenon is John B. Goodenough, winner of the Nobel Prize in Chemistry in 2019 at the age of about 96. He did research into lithium ion batteries in the 1970s and 80s at Oxford University. In the 1980s he was head of the Inorganic Chemistry laboratory at Oxford, but he had to retire due to the university's policies on age. He then transferred to the USA, where he is still working as a researcher at The University of Texas at Austin, and is now aged 100.
    Betty Boothroyd was a member of the HoL at 93 when she popped her clogs. There have been and are plenty of others in the same approximate age bracket, such as Baroness Trumpington.

    Google tells me that the oldest has been Manny Shinwell at 101.

    One reason US Senators stay around so long is that I think they tend to gerrymander their own Electorates.

    The BBC seems to have quite a cohort, for one organisation.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,080
    GIN1138 said:

    Well... for starters there's no guarantee Biden will even be alive in November 2024.

    He is three years past average life expectancy for a US male so anything he gets from here is a bonus..

    Incorrect. At the age of 80 the average life expectancy of a US male is 87.

    Infant mortality and sudden violent death rather skew the overall average...
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,893

    "As a 76 year-old myself I believe that this is far too old for anyone to be seeking the most powerful political position in the world."

    This is Mike's clever double bluff to stop people thinking he's going for world domination.

    At the next GE in October 24 I will be 80 + 8 months and the idea of Biden being POTUS for another term is nonsense despite some saying it is the way in the US
    At 80, even 82, on reflection, I could have handled all sorts of challenges. Now at nearly 85 I’m in a similar condition to FDR.
    Mentally I’m fine. Physically I’m not!
    You make an excellent point

    Biden shows lapses of concentration even now, but reductions in mobility become much more frequent and irreversible as you age
    But he would have Mob1, the most high-tech mobility scooter in the world. Satellite communications, bomb-proof, 0-60 in 3.6 seconds. Even a holder for the nuclear codes football.
    Don’t think I can aspire to that, but as soon as I can get out of the house I’m planning to get myself some sort of electric scooter.Sadly the chap I was planning races with has recently died.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,275
    Carnyx said:

    Fpt

    ...

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    I have ordered the pork belly with dauphinoise potatoes, carrots and a red wine jus. A pint of Surrey Nirvana to wash it down.

    It will probably be the Baileys Creme Brulee for dessert. Maybe the cheese board too with a port.

    What no photos? Anyway, welcome back Leon.
    Here's the main.


    Is that vegan "pork"?
    Looks like the plate is upside down! Still, at least it's not been served on an old shovel or any other pretentious wank!
    You're just jealous.

    Nothing to stop you ordering the same or having a surreptitiously danger-wank over it later on.
    Casino, mate, genuinely we need to stop this little vegan/meat eater spat. I only tell you to go vegan because I know it winds you up. For what it's worth, my veganism isn't a religion, it's just a dietary and lifestyle choice after re assessing my own health and fitness after my wife's brush with breast cancer. Plus equally importantly, we really should be kinder to non humans and the planet in general. It's not down to me to judge how anyone else eats. So enjoy that pork, yer dirty meat eating bastard!🤣🤪
    Well done for taking stock of your health and fitness - that's great. Veganism sadly is unlikely to help you acheive your long term health and fitness goals, as the diet is very poor in nutrient dense health-giving foods, and it denies the vegan a lot of the foods like butter and eggs that can help to ameliorate a vegetarian diet. A human cannot live a healthy and full life on a vegan diet, without fortifying their diet with synthetic b-vitamins, which I hope you're taking care of. You may also struggle with Vitamin D, iron, calcium, and others.

    I would advise you to introduce some foods brought to us by the animal kingdom, for example, eggs from hens you keep or a trusted ethical supplier, or plain yoghurt made with organic milk.
    Cheers, mate, but I'm sorry, you're factually incorrect on the nutritional aspects of a well balanced vegan diet. I don't struggle getting any essential nutrients and vitamins. As with anything, we all research information from our own chosen sources, so we'll have to agree to disagree .
    No, I'm correct. There are no plant foods that can be shown to contain Vitamin B12 in sufficient quantity/bioavailability for human needs, hence things like plant milks, cereals, marmite etc. often being fortified with synthetic B12. This is not subject to debate, and you're welcome to research it from any source you'd like.

    I am glad you have the zeal of the converted, and I am sure your current dietary regime has many benefits over your old regime, but you should perhaps try and see this as the beginning of your learning journey rather than the end.
    It's not zeal, it's just well researched. You are of course correct about the B12. It's the only supplement I take, but I just disagree with you that a vegan diet is unhealthy.
    Since B12 is synthesised by bacteria (including that from animal sources), it's hardly impossible to obtain it in a vegan diet.
    It's not impossible, but I was advised by my GP at my last medical to think about a B12 as it's the one contentious element in a well balanced vegan diet. I could just eat soil like the animals do!
    Sure. Point is that the supplements are as 'natural' as anything Luckguy gets from his diet.
    I don't know about B12 supplements, but a lot of vitamins and minerals are better sourced naturally in foods for many reasons, as Iain has argued. They tend to be better absorbed, often have a different chemical profile (natural vitamin C is different from just 'ascorbic acid' and works better as an antioxidant), and they are often accompanied naturally within food by complementary vitamins, minerals, fats, etc., that the body also needs to make them work as they should. Calcium is a good example; it should be accompanied by a certain amount of magnesium, vitamin k, and (I think) vitamin D to work as it should, so you definitely won't get the same benefit from just taking some Calcium carbonate (common name chalk) than you would by eating some natural yoghurt of drinking some raw milk.
    Utter rubbish. Natural vitamin C and synthetic are identical. Where a natural source may differ will be in providing other components that may aid absorption.
    No it isn't 'utter rubbish', naturally occuring Vitamin C is a complex nutrient that has:
    Ascorbic acid
    Ascorbigon
    Tyrosinase
    J factors
    K factors
    P factors
    Rutin
    Bioflavonoids
    All working together to produce the antioxidant effect (yes I got that list from a web page - I was just aware of the overall concept).

    Synthetic vitamin C takes one part of this, ascorbic acid, produced by boiling corn starch, and isolates it. To use this, the body has to leach all that other stuff from your own stores.

    It's not a horrendous thing, but clearly naturally occuring vitamin C will be much more effective.

    Furthermore, despite some totally unwarranted snark about 'as natural as anything in Luckyguy's diet', I responded civilly and in detail to NigelB, so I am not sure I deserved you to jump in with your size 11 steel toecaps. You could try being a little more polite next time, with the added benefit that you won't be made to look an utter twat.
    Those are designed by the plant to suit itself, not its predators.

    A fruit is meant to be attractive to (and therefore beneficial for) would-be eaters, so the seeds spread.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,080
    MattW said:

    fox327 said:

    Heathener said:

    Well, at the risk of re-stating old arguments, attitudes to ageing are very different between the UK and US.

    It is quite normal in the US for physically fit people to continue to live the American dream: to work hard into their seventies, eighties, and even nineties. Senator Strom Thurmond was a Senator at 100! Utterly unthinkable in the UK.

    They don't have the same view of putting themselves out to grass.

    That doesn't mean they are right and that Mike is wrong. I'm just pointing out that it's perfectly de rigueur in the US.

    A classic example of this phenomenon is John B. Goodenough, winner of the Nobel Prize in Chemistry in 2019 at the age of about 96. He did research into lithium ion batteries in the 1970s and 80s at Oxford University. In the 1980s he was head of the Inorganic Chemistry laboratory at Oxford, but he had to retire due to the university's policies on age. He then transferred to the USA, where he is still working as a researcher at The University of Texas at Austin, and is now aged 100.
    Betty Boothroyd was a member of the HoL at 93 when she popped her clogs. There have been and are plenty of others in the same approximate age bracket, such as Baroness Trumpington.

    Google tells me that the oldest has been Manny Shinwell at 101.

    One reason US Senators stay around so long is that I think they tend to gerrymander their own Electorates.

    The BBC seems to have quite a cohort, for one organisation.
    Francis Jackson was organist of his local church until he was about 96. There is video of him playing the organ at age 100, admittedly rather slowly.
  • solarflaresolarflare Posts: 3,623
    edited March 2023

    "As a 76 year-old myself I believe that this is far too old for anyone to be seeking the most powerful political position in the world."

    This is Mike's clever double bluff to stop people thinking he's going for world domination.

    At the next GE in October 24 I will be 80 + 8 months and the idea of Biden being POTUS for another term is nonsense despite some saying it is the way in the US
    At 80, even 82, on reflection, I could have handled all sorts of challenges. Now at nearly 85 I’m in a similar condition to FDR.
    Mentally I’m fine. Physically I’m not!
    You make an excellent point

    Biden shows lapses of concentration even now, but reductions in mobility become much more frequent and irreversible as you age
    But he would have Mob1, the most high-tech mobility scooter in the world. Satellite communications, bomb-proof, 0-60 in 3.6 seconds. Even a holder for the nuclear codes football.
    What a Harrison Ford action movie that would make.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,080
    All that being said, I do think Biden is rather old to run again. One big concern I have is if Trump isn't the nominee the Republican will merely have to point to his age.

    I know Reagan got away with it due to a magnificent one-line put down but Biden is (a) no Reagan and (b) much older.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,928

    rcs1000 said:

    Biden Vs Trump. What a shitshow. 360 million people and they get the choice of those two old duffers. I hope Trump wins, he does something barmy (not as barmy as nuclear war, though), then there's a bit of anarchy, he gets locked up and it all sorts itself out and someone younger and saner gets the gig.

    On the positive side, neither is Putin.
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Buttigieg is already rumoured to be Biden's VP nominee if he wins the Democratic nomination again in 2024, particularly given his appeal to key white, graduate suburban swing voters who voted for Bush, Obama in 2008, narrowly for Romney in 2012, then Trump in 2016, then Biden in 2020. He would shift Harris to State or the SC.

    Buttigieg would then be in prime position to be Democratic candidate in 2028 assuming Biden is re elected.

    National polling numbers at this stage should not be overstated however, if DeSantis and Pence perform well against Trump in Iowa and New Hampshire they will be right back in contention for the GOP nomination

    For Buttigieg to be the VP nominee, the deep state would need to assassinate one of the judges so Kamala can join the Supreme Court bench. Bluntly, unless the Dems want Trump back in the White House, Kamala Harris will need to be bought off. She can't just be dropped without splitting the party.
    Yes she can, she is not very popular with the Black vote. Indeed in 2020 Biden-Harris got a lower share of the black vote than even Hillary did in 2016, let alone Obama in 2008 and 2012.

    Biden only won because he won White suburban voters who had voted for Trump in 2016. Biden will switch Harris to Secretary of State and make Buttigieg his VP nominee to appeal to those white suburban voters
    There's a big difference between KH being unpopular with the black vote (if she is, I'm not sure), and how black voters would react to a black female VP being removed for a white man. If she can get a 'promotion' to the SC, that might be sellable. But I'm not convinced yet.
    Black voters have no love for Harris at all, as shown by the fact Biden-Harris got a lower share of the black vote than Gore, Kerry and Clinton, let alone Obama. Her record prosecuting blacks in California turns them off. She adds sod all to the Biden ticket electorally.

    The only way Biden gets re elected is by winning the White suburban graduate swing voters again he won in 2020. To help with that he has to dump Harris and replace her with Buttigieg.

    Harris can be offered Secretary of State and if she turns it down Biden can discard her
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,768
    ydoethur said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Well... for starters there's no guarantee Biden will even be alive in November 2024.

    He is three years past average life expectancy for a US male so anything he gets from here is a bonus..

    Incorrect. At the age of 80 the average life expectancy of a US male is 87.

    Infant mortality and sudden violent death rather skew the overall average...
    87 seems implausibly high for a US male given all the junk food they consume?
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,275

    Fpt

    ...

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    I have ordered the pork belly with dauphinoise potatoes, carrots and a red wine jus. A pint of Surrey Nirvana to wash it down.

    It will probably be the Baileys Creme Brulee for dessert. Maybe the cheese board too with a port.

    What no photos? Anyway, welcome back Leon.
    Here's the main.


    Is that vegan "pork"?
    Looks like the plate is upside down! Still, at least it's not been served on an old shovel or any other pretentious wank!
    You're just jealous.

    Nothing to stop you ordering the same or having a surreptitiously danger-wank over it later on.
    Casino, mate, genuinely we need to stop this little vegan/meat eater spat. I only tell you to go vegan because I know it winds you up. For what it's worth, my veganism isn't a religion, it's just a dietary and lifestyle choice after re assessing my own health and fitness after my wife's brush with breast cancer. Plus equally importantly, we really should be kinder to non humans and the planet in general. It's not down to me to judge how anyone else eats. So enjoy that pork, yer dirty meat eating bastard!🤣🤪
    Well done for taking stock of your health and fitness - that's great. Veganism sadly is unlikely to help you acheive your long term health and fitness goals, as the diet is very poor in nutrient dense health-giving foods, and it denies the vegan a lot of the foods like butter and eggs that can help to ameliorate a vegetarian diet. A human cannot live a healthy and full life on a vegan diet, without fortifying their diet with synthetic b-vitamins, which I hope you're taking care of. You may also struggle with Vitamin D, iron, calcium, and others.

    I would advise you to introduce some foods brought to us by the animal kingdom, for example, eggs from hens you keep or a trusted ethical supplier, or plain yoghurt made with organic milk.
    Cheers, mate, but I'm sorry, you're factually incorrect on the nutritional aspects of a well balanced vegan diet. I don't struggle getting any essential nutrients and vitamins. As with anything, we all research information from our own chosen sources, so we'll have to agree to disagree .
    No, I'm correct. There are no plant foods that can be shown to contain Vitamin B12 in sufficient quantity/bioavailability for human needs, hence things like plant milks, cereals, marmite etc. often being fortified with synthetic B12. This is not subject to debate, and you're welcome to research it from any source you'd like.

    I am glad you have the zeal of the converted, and I am sure your current dietary regime has many benefits over your old regime, but you should perhaps try and see this as the beginning of your learning journey rather than the end.
    It's not zeal, it's just well researched. You are of course correct about the B12. It's the only supplement I take, but I just disagree with you that a vegan diet is unhealthy.
    Since B12 is synthesised by bacteria (including that from animal sources), it's hardly impossible to obtain it in a vegan diet.
    It's not impossible, but I was advised by my GP at my last medical to think about a B12 as it's the one contentious element in a well balanced vegan diet. I could just eat soil like the animals do!
    Sure. Point is that the supplements are as 'natural' as anything Luckguy gets from his diet.
    I don't know about B12 supplements, but a lot of vitamins and minerals are better sourced naturally in foods for many reasons, as Iain has argued. They tend to be better absorbed, often have a different chemical profile (natural vitamin C is different from just 'ascorbic acid' and works better as an antioxidant), and they are often accompanied naturally within food by complementary vitamins, minerals, fats, etc., that the body also needs to make them work as they should. Calcium is a good example; it should be accompanied by a certain amount of magnesium, vitamin k, and (I think) vitamin D to work as it should, so you definitely won't get the same benefit from just taking some Calcium carbonate (common name chalk) than you would by eating some natural yoghurt of drinking some raw milk.
    Utter rubbish. Natural vitamin C and synthetic are identical. Where a natural source may differ will be in providing other components that may aid absorption.
    No it isn't 'utter rubbish', naturally occuring Vitamin C is a complex nutrient that has:
    Ascorbic acid
    Ascorbigon
    Tyrosinase
    J factors
    K factors
    P factors
    Rutin
    Bioflavonoids
    All working together to produce the antioxidant effect (yes I got that list from a web page - I was just aware of the overall concept).

    Synthetic vitamin C takes one part of this, ascorbic acid, produced by boiling corn starch, and isolates it. To use this, the body has to leach all that other stuff from your own stores.

    It's not a horrendous thing, but clearly naturally occuring vitamin C will be much more effective.

    Furthermore, despite some totally unwarranted snark about 'as natural as anything in Luckyguy's diet', I responded civilly and in detail to NigelB, so I am not sure I deserved you to jump in with your size 11 steel toecaps. You could try being a little more polite next time, with the added benefit that you won't be made to look an utter twat.
    Nope. Vitamin C is ascorbic acid. I’ll give you the salts of the acid too if you like. The rest are other things, yes cofactors, as I said - other elements that may assist with absorption (and other effects). But at heart, vitamin C is not different from synthetic vitamin C.
    If you are arguing that it’s better to get it from diet, I totally agree with you. I just hate the concept that natural chemicals are somehow different from synthetic.
    Also, apols for seeming rude. Not intentional, but pretty badly phrased by me.
    I am sorry I was rude. Our disagreement seems mainly about terminology rather than fundamentals.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,080
    GIN1138 said:

    ydoethur said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Well... for starters there's no guarantee Biden will even be alive in November 2024.

    He is three years past average life expectancy for a US male so anything he gets from here is a bonus..

    Incorrect. At the age of 80 the average life expectancy of a US male is 87.

    Infant mortality and sudden violent death rather skew the overall average...
    87 seems implausibly high for a US male given all the junk food they consume?
    The ones that eat that much may not get to 80...
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,080
    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Biden Vs Trump. What a shitshow. 360 million people and they get the choice of those two old duffers. I hope Trump wins, he does something barmy (not as barmy as nuclear war, though), then there's a bit of anarchy, he gets locked up and it all sorts itself out and someone younger and saner gets the gig.

    On the positive side, neither is Putin.
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Buttigieg is already rumoured to be Biden's VP nominee if he wins the Democratic nomination again in 2024, particularly given his appeal to key white, graduate suburban swing voters who voted for Bush, Obama in 2008, narrowly for Romney in 2012, then Trump in 2016, then Biden in 2020. He would shift Harris to State or the SC.

    Buttigieg would then be in prime position to be Democratic candidate in 2028 assuming Biden is re elected.

    National polling numbers at this stage should not be overstated however, if DeSantis and Pence perform well against Trump in Iowa and New Hampshire they will be right back in contention for the GOP nomination

    For Buttigieg to be the VP nominee, the deep state would need to assassinate one of the judges so Kamala can join the Supreme Court bench. Bluntly, unless the Dems want Trump back in the White House, Kamala Harris will need to be bought off. She can't just be dropped without splitting the party.
    Yes she can, she is not very popular with the Black vote. Indeed in 2020 Biden-Harris got a lower share of the black vote than even Hillary did in 2016, let alone Obama in 2008 and 2012.

    Biden only won because he won White suburban voters who had voted for Trump in 2016. Biden will switch Harris to Secretary of State and make Buttigieg his VP nominee to appeal to those white suburban voters
    There's a big difference between KH being unpopular with the black vote (if she is, I'm not sure), and how black voters would react to a black female VP being removed for a white man. If she can get a 'promotion' to the SC, that might be sellable. But I'm not convinced yet.
    Black voters have no love for Harris at all, as shown by the fact Biden-Harris got a lower share of the black vote than Gore, Kerry and Clinton, let alone Obama. Her record prosecuting blacks in California turns them off. She adds sod all to the Biden ticket electorally.

    The only way Biden gets re elected is by winning the White suburban graduate swing voters again he won in 2020. To help with that he has to dump Harris and replace her with Buttigieg.

    Harris can be offered Secretary of State and if she turns it down Biden can discard her
    Ford changed his nominee in 1976, of course. Who was the last *elected* president to change Veep for another run? Was it Roosevelt in 1944?
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 15,456

    HYUFD said:

    Buttigieg is already rumoured to be Biden's VP nominee if he wins the Democratic nomination again in 2024, particularly given his appeal to key white, graduate suburban swing voters who voted for Bush, Obama in 2008, narrowly for Romney in 2012, then Trump in 2016, then Biden in 2020. He would shift Harris to State or the SC.

    Buttigieg would then be in prime position to be Democratic candidate in 2028 assuming Biden is re elected.

    National polling numbers at this stage should not be overstated however, if DeSantis and Pence perform well against Trump in Iowa and New Hampshire they will be right back in contention for the GOP nomination

    For Buttigieg to be the VP nominee, the deep state would need to assassinate one of the judges so Kamala can join the Supreme Court bench. Bluntly, unless the Dems want Trump back in the White House, Kamala Harris will need to be bought off. She can't just be dropped without splitting the party.
    For any sitting POTUS, ditching one's VP in favor of a different running mate for upcoming election, is exercise fraught with peril, or at least with difficulties known, and unknown.

    Last one to do it: Franklin Roosevelt in 1944 when he helped engineer the replacement of VP Henry Wallace by Harry Truman. under pressure (but underlined by FDR's own political instincts) from key elements of the New Deal coalition AND his own inner circle.

    Of course Wallace had replaced FDR's first VP, John Nance Garner, on the 1940 Democratic ticket, but that was because Garner refused to go along with the Third Term, plus other ideological reasons.

    Note throughout his first term, Richard Nixon was wanting to figure out a way to rid himself of Spiro Agnew, and replace him with someone better. With RN's preferred replacement being John Connolly. But he simply couldn't see how he could get away with it, even at the height of his power and dominance of the Republican Party. Especially since Connolly was a Democrat!

    And further note, that perhaps the most significant replacement of one VP by another, was by Abraham Lincoln, who in 1864 engineered the nomination of another Democrat, Andrew Johnson - one of the few politicos from a seceding state that had remained loyal to the Union, in place of Abe's first Veep, Hannibal Hamlin.
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 3,159

    I've walked just over 2,000 miles in the last year

    And I've been a postie for six months of that

    I'm planning a holiday where I'll need to walk about 400 miles in three weeks

    Is that completely fucking mad?

    What's the plan if you turn your ankle? Maybe make sure to book refundable accomodation to limit your losses...
  • I've walked just over 2,000 miles in the last year

    And I've been a postie for six months of that

    I'm planning a holiday where I'll need to walk about 400 miles in three weeks

    Is that completely fucking mad?

    No, not remotely

    I has a desk job and have walked an average of 20km / day for the last 7 years.
    I'm planning about 32 km per day with no rest days

    That's 40 km per day with four rest days

    That's a pilgrimage

    It used to traditionally be done in four weeks

    I've made it a three week race
    Any particular reason? Or are you just setting yourself a goal?
    It's just a goal that came about from a random historical internet search

    It's become a bit of an obsession

    There's so much I want to see in Brittany, and I do want to try to do the walk
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,928

    HYUFD said:

    Buttigieg is already rumoured to be Biden's VP nominee if he wins the Democratic nomination again in 2024, particularly given his appeal to key white, graduate suburban swing voters who voted for Bush, Obama in 2008, narrowly for Romney in 2012, then Trump in 2016, then Biden in 2020. He would shift Harris to State or the SC.

    Buttigieg would then be in prime position to be Democratic candidate in 2028 assuming Biden is re elected.

    National polling numbers at this stage should not be overstated however, if DeSantis and Pence perform well against Trump in Iowa and New Hampshire they will be right back in contention for the GOP nomination

    For Buttigieg to be the VP nominee, the deep state would need to assassinate one of the judges so Kamala can join the Supreme Court bench. Bluntly, unless the Dems want Trump back in the White House, Kamala Harris will need to be bought off. She can't just be dropped without splitting the party.
    For any sitting POTUS, ditching one's VP in favor of a different running mate for upcoming election, is exercise fraught with peril, or at least with difficulties known, and unknown.

    Last one to do it: Franklin Roosevelt in 1944 when he helped engineer the replacement of VP Henry Wallace by Harry Truman. under pressure (but underlined by FDR's own political instincts) from key elements of the New Deal coalition AND his own inner circle.

    Of course Wallace had replaced FDR's first VP, John Nance Garner, on the 1940 Democratic ticket, but that was because Garner refused to go along with the Third Term, plus other ideological reasons.

    Note throughout his first term, Richard Nixon was wanting to figure out a way to rid himself of Spiro Agnew, and replace him with someone better. With RN's preferred replacement being John Connolly. But he simply couldn't see how he could get away with it, even at the height of his power and dominance of the Republican Party. Especially since Connolly was a Democrat!

    And further note, that perhaps the most significant replacement of one VP by another, was by Abraham Lincoln, who in 1864 engineered the nomination of another Democrat, Andrew Johnson - one of the few politicos from a seceding state that had remained loyal to the Union, in place of Abe's first Veep, Hannibal Hamlin.
    FDR was of course re elected in 1944, so it worked!
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,080
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Buttigieg is already rumoured to be Biden's VP nominee if he wins the Democratic nomination again in 2024, particularly given his appeal to key white, graduate suburban swing voters who voted for Bush, Obama in 2008, narrowly for Romney in 2012, then Trump in 2016, then Biden in 2020. He would shift Harris to State or the SC.

    Buttigieg would then be in prime position to be Democratic candidate in 2028 assuming Biden is re elected.

    National polling numbers at this stage should not be overstated however, if DeSantis and Pence perform well against Trump in Iowa and New Hampshire they will be right back in contention for the GOP nomination

    For Buttigieg to be the VP nominee, the deep state would need to assassinate one of the judges so Kamala can join the Supreme Court bench. Bluntly, unless the Dems want Trump back in the White House, Kamala Harris will need to be bought off. She can't just be dropped without splitting the party.
    For any sitting POTUS, ditching one's VP in favor of a different running mate for upcoming election, is exercise fraught with peril, or at least with difficulties known, and unknown.

    Last one to do it: Franklin Roosevelt in 1944 when he helped engineer the replacement of VP Henry Wallace by Harry Truman. under pressure (but underlined by FDR's own political instincts) from key elements of the New Deal coalition AND his own inner circle.

    Of course Wallace had replaced FDR's first VP, John Nance Garner, on the 1940 Democratic ticket, but that was because Garner refused to go along with the Third Term, plus other ideological reasons.

    Note throughout his first term, Richard Nixon was wanting to figure out a way to rid himself of Spiro Agnew, and replace him with someone better. With RN's preferred replacement being John Connolly. But he simply couldn't see how he could get away with it, even at the height of his power and dominance of the Republican Party. Especially since Connolly was a Democrat!

    And further note, that perhaps the most significant replacement of one VP by another, was by Abraham Lincoln, who in 1864 engineered the nomination of another Democrat, Andrew Johnson - one of the few politicos from a seceding state that had remained loyal to the Union, in place of Abe's first Veep, Hannibal Hamlin.
    FDR was of course re elected in 1944, so it worked!
    For a given value of 'worked.' He did of course drop dead three months into his second term.
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 4,339
    I recall lots of discussion of lots of VPs being changed. I don’t recall it ever happening. I file it in the “what if there’s a West Wing style unclear delegate count by the convention” thing.
  • carnforth said:

    I've walked just over 2,000 miles in the last year

    And I've been a postie for six months of that

    I'm planning a holiday where I'll need to walk about 400 miles in three weeks

    Is that completely fucking mad?

    What's the plan if you turn your ankle? Maybe make sure to book refundable accommodation to limit your losses...
    I'm booking no accommodation until I'm within afternoon walking distance

  • carnforth said:

    I've walked just over 2,000 miles in the last year

    And I've been a postie for six months of that

    I'm planning a holiday where I'll need to walk about 400 miles in three weeks

    Is that completely fucking mad?

    What's the plan if you turn your ankle? Maybe make sure to book refundable accommodation to limit your losses...
    I'm booking no accommodation until I'm within afternoon walking distance

    And on ankle turning; I'll truss it up
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,080

    carnforth said:

    I've walked just over 2,000 miles in the last year

    And I've been a postie for six months of that

    I'm planning a holiday where I'll need to walk about 400 miles in three weeks

    Is that completely fucking mad?

    What's the plan if you turn your ankle? Maybe make sure to book refundable accommodation to limit your losses...
    I'm booking no accommodation until I'm within afternoon walking distance

    And on ankle turning; I'll truss it up
    Bad idea. She got worse and then collapsed entirely.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,213
    Biden is my path to riches.

    Please survive the next 22 months and beat Trump, Joe.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,087

    "As a 76 year-old myself I believe that this is far too old for anyone to be seeking the most powerful political position in the world."

    This is Mike's clever double bluff to stop people thinking he's going for world domination.

    At the next GE in October 24 I will be 80 + 8 months and the idea of Biden being POTUS for another term is nonsense despite some saying it is the way in the US
    At 80, even 82, on reflection, I could have handled all sorts of challenges. Now at nearly 85 I’m in a similar condition to FDR.
    Mentally I’m fine. Physically I’m not!
    You make an excellent point

    Biden shows lapses of concentration even now, but reductions in mobility become much more frequent and irreversible as you age
    But he would have Mob1, the most high-tech mobility scooter in the world. Satellite communications, bomb-proof, 0-60 in 3.6 seconds. Even a holder for the nuclear codes football.
    Don’t think I can aspire to that, but as soon as I can get out of the house I’m planning to get myself some sort of electric scooter.Sadly the chap I was planning races with has recently died.
    Sad to hear. You'll just have to take on Dura Ace now...


    https://newatlas.com/mobility-scooter-record/41749/
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,928
    edited March 2023
    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Buttigieg is already rumoured to be Biden's VP nominee if he wins the Democratic nomination again in 2024, particularly given his appeal to key white, graduate suburban swing voters who voted for Bush, Obama in 2008, narrowly for Romney in 2012, then Trump in 2016, then Biden in 2020. He would shift Harris to State or the SC.

    Buttigieg would then be in prime position to be Democratic candidate in 2028 assuming Biden is re elected.

    National polling numbers at this stage should not be overstated however, if DeSantis and Pence perform well against Trump in Iowa and New Hampshire they will be right back in contention for the GOP nomination

    For Buttigieg to be the VP nominee, the deep state would need to assassinate one of the judges so Kamala can join the Supreme Court bench. Bluntly, unless the Dems want Trump back in the White House, Kamala Harris will need to be bought off. She can't just be dropped without splitting the party.
    For any sitting POTUS, ditching one's VP in favor of a different running mate for upcoming election, is exercise fraught with peril, or at least with difficulties known, and unknown.

    Last one to do it: Franklin Roosevelt in 1944 when he helped engineer the replacement of VP Henry Wallace by Harry Truman. under pressure (but underlined by FDR's own political instincts) from key elements of the New Deal coalition AND his own inner circle.

    Of course Wallace had replaced FDR's first VP, John Nance Garner, on the 1940 Democratic ticket, but that was because Garner refused to go along with the Third Term, plus other ideological reasons.

    Note throughout his first term, Richard Nixon was wanting to figure out a way to rid himself of Spiro Agnew, and replace him with someone better. With RN's preferred replacement being John Connolly. But he simply couldn't see how he could get away with it, even at the height of his power and dominance of the Republican Party. Especially since Connolly was a Democrat!

    And further note, that perhaps the most significant replacement of one VP by another, was by Abraham Lincoln, who in 1864 engineered the nomination of another Democrat, Andrew Johnson - one of the few politicos from a seceding state that had remained loyal to the Union, in place of Abe's first Veep, Hannibal Hamlin.
    FDR was of course re elected in 1944, so it worked!
    For a given value of 'worked.' He did of course drop dead three months into his second term.
    His 4th term you mean! After Hoover lost to FDR in 1932 the Republicans didn't win another Presidential election for 20 years until IKE in 1952
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,080
    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Buttigieg is already rumoured to be Biden's VP nominee if he wins the Democratic nomination again in 2024, particularly given his appeal to key white, graduate suburban swing voters who voted for Bush, Obama in 2008, narrowly for Romney in 2012, then Trump in 2016, then Biden in 2020. He would shift Harris to State or the SC.

    Buttigieg would then be in prime position to be Democratic candidate in 2028 assuming Biden is re elected.

    National polling numbers at this stage should not be overstated however, if DeSantis and Pence perform well against Trump in Iowa and New Hampshire they will be right back in contention for the GOP nomination

    For Buttigieg to be the VP nominee, the deep state would need to assassinate one of the judges so Kamala can join the Supreme Court bench. Bluntly, unless the Dems want Trump back in the White House, Kamala Harris will need to be bought off. She can't just be dropped without splitting the party.
    For any sitting POTUS, ditching one's VP in favor of a different running mate for upcoming election, is exercise fraught with peril, or at least with difficulties known, and unknown.

    Last one to do it: Franklin Roosevelt in 1944 when he helped engineer the replacement of VP Henry Wallace by Harry Truman. under pressure (but underlined by FDR's own political instincts) from key elements of the New Deal coalition AND his own inner circle.

    Of course Wallace had replaced FDR's first VP, John Nance Garner, on the 1940 Democratic ticket, but that was because Garner refused to go along with the Third Term, plus other ideological reasons.

    Note throughout his first term, Richard Nixon was wanting to figure out a way to rid himself of Spiro Agnew, and replace him with someone better. With RN's preferred replacement being John Connolly. But he simply couldn't see how he could get away with it, even at the height of his power and dominance of the Republican Party. Especially since Connolly was a Democrat!

    And further note, that perhaps the most significant replacement of one VP by another, was by Abraham Lincoln, who in 1864 engineered the nomination of another Democrat, Andrew Johnson - one of the few politicos from a seceding state that had remained loyal to the Union, in place of Abe's first Veep, Hannibal Hamlin.
    FDR was of course re elected in 1944, so it worked!
    For a given value of 'worked.' He did of course drop dead three months into his second term.
    His 4th term you mean!
    Oops.

    In my defence I am very tired.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,539
    GIN1138 said:

    Well... for starters there's no guarantee Biden will even be alive in November 2024.

    He is three years past average life expectancy for a US male so anything he gets from here is a bonus..

    Er, fallacy surely. Average life expectancy includes the ones who have already died, so to speak. Once you get older, your expectancy increases ...
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,286
    Kamala Harris would be 60 in 2024 - normally you wouldn't waste a Supreme Court pick on someone that old. But of course there's no vacancy anyway.

    But I did see some suggestion that maybe Sotomayor could retire - she is 70 in 2024. Obviously replacing a 70 year old with a 60 year old is a net gain for the Dems.

    Seems very unlikely but IF for some reason Sotomayor did want to retire, it could work well.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,087
    Carnyx said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Well... for starters there's no guarantee Biden will even be alive in November 2024.

    He is three years past average life expectancy for a US male so anything he gets from here is a bonus..

    Er, fallacy surely. Average life expectancy includes the ones who have already died, so to speak. Once you get older, your expectancy increases ...
    Plus he will have the best medical monitoring and assistance on the planet.
  • ydoethur said:

    carnforth said:

    I've walked just over 2,000 miles in the last year

    And I've been a postie for six months of that

    I'm planning a holiday where I'll need to walk about 400 miles in three weeks

    Is that completely fucking mad?

    What's the plan if you turn your ankle? Maybe make sure to book refundable accommodation to limit your losses...
    I'm booking no accommodation until I'm within afternoon walking distance

    And on ankle turning; I'll truss it up
    Bad idea. She got worse and then collapsed entirely.
    I only need to last twenty one days
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,194
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Buttigieg is already rumoured to be Biden's VP nominee if he wins the Democratic nomination again in 2024, particularly given his appeal to key white, graduate suburban swing voters who voted for Bush, Obama in 2008, narrowly for Romney in 2012, then Trump in 2016, then Biden in 2020. He would shift Harris to State or the SC.

    Buttigieg would then be in prime position to be Democratic candidate in 2028 assuming Biden is re elected.

    National polling numbers at this stage should not be overstated however, if DeSantis and Pence perform well against Trump in Iowa and New Hampshire they will be right back in contention for the GOP nomination

    For Buttigieg to be the VP nominee, the deep state would need to assassinate one of the judges so Kamala can join the Supreme Court bench. Bluntly, unless the Dems want Trump back in the White House, Kamala Harris will need to be bought off. She can't just be dropped without splitting the party.
    Yes she can, she is not very popular with the Black vote. Indeed in 2020 Biden-Harris got a lower share of the black vote than even Hillary did in 2016, let alone Obama in 2008 and 2012.

    Biden only won because he won White suburban voters who had voted for Trump in 2016. Biden will switch Harris to Secretary of State and make Buttigieg his VP nominee to appeal to those white suburban voters
    I somewhat doubt that.
    There is a story going round just now about Biden losing patience with Harris, but it seems to be exclusively (and simultaneously) in right wing outlets. Which doesn’t smell right.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,213

    I've walked just over 2,000 miles in the last year

    And I've been a postie for six months of that

    I'm planning a holiday where I'll need to walk about 400 miles in three weeks

    Is that completely fucking mad?

    You are The Proclaimers, and I claim my £5.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,213

    "As a 76 year-old myself I believe that this is far too old for anyone to be seeking the most powerful political position in the world."

    This is Mike's clever double bluff to stop people thinking he's going for world domination.

    At the next GE in October 24 I will be 80 + 8 months and the idea of Biden being POTUS for another term is nonsense despite some saying it is the way in the US
    At 80, even 82, on reflection, I could have handled all sorts of challenges. Now at nearly 85 I’m in a similar condition to FDR.
    Mentally I’m fine. Physically I’m not!
    You make an excellent point

    Biden shows lapses of concentration even now, but reductions in mobility become much more frequent and irreversible as you age
    But he would have Mob1, the most high-tech mobility scooter in the world. Satellite communications, bomb-proof, 0-60 in 3.6 seconds. Even a holder for the nuclear codes football.
    Don’t think I can aspire to that, but as soon as I can get out of the house I’m planning to get myself some sort of electric scooter.Sadly the chap I was planning races with has recently died.
    Sad to hear. You'll just have to take on Dura Ace now...


    https://newatlas.com/mobility-scooter-record/41749/
    I think he's hoping to log on later tonight, and read about an enjoyable pb punch up.

    Not sure OAP go karts is quite it.
  • pingping Posts: 3,731
    Wow Wales!
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,928
    edited March 2023
    Nigelb said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Buttigieg is already rumoured to be Biden's VP nominee if he wins the Democratic nomination again in 2024, particularly given his appeal to key white, graduate suburban swing voters who voted for Bush, Obama in 2008, narrowly for Romney in 2012, then Trump in 2016, then Biden in 2020. He would shift Harris to State or the SC.

    Buttigieg would then be in prime position to be Democratic candidate in 2028 assuming Biden is re elected.

    National polling numbers at this stage should not be overstated however, if DeSantis and Pence perform well against Trump in Iowa and New Hampshire they will be right back in contention for the GOP nomination

    For Buttigieg to be the VP nominee, the deep state would need to assassinate one of the judges so Kamala can join the Supreme Court bench. Bluntly, unless the Dems want Trump back in the White House, Kamala Harris will need to be bought off. She can't just be dropped without splitting the party.
    Yes she can, she is not very popular with the Black vote. Indeed in 2020 Biden-Harris got a lower share of the black vote than even Hillary did in 2016, let alone Obama in 2008 and 2012.

    Biden only won because he won White suburban voters who had voted for Trump in 2016. Biden will switch Harris to Secretary of State and make Buttigieg his VP nominee to appeal to those white suburban voters
    I somewhat doubt that.
    There is a story going round just now about Biden losing patience with Harris, but it seems to be exclusively (and simultaneously) in right wing outlets. Which doesn’t smell right.
    Harris adds nothing to the Democrat ticket electorally, she is a coastal liberal with zero charisma and without the appeal to the Black vote Obama had or the gravitas Hillary had.

    DeSantis or Trump would trounce her in a Presidential election. Biden needs to remove her from his ticket in 2024 if he wants to maximise his chances of reelection
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,087

    "As a 76 year-old myself I believe that this is far too old for anyone to be seeking the most powerful political position in the world."

    This is Mike's clever double bluff to stop people thinking he's going for world domination.

    At the next GE in October 24 I will be 80 + 8 months and the idea of Biden being POTUS for another term is nonsense despite some saying it is the way in the US
    At 80, even 82, on reflection, I could have handled all sorts of challenges. Now at nearly 85 I’m in a similar condition to FDR.
    Mentally I’m fine. Physically I’m not!
    You make an excellent point

    Biden shows lapses of concentration even now, but reductions in mobility become much more frequent and irreversible as you age
    But he would have Mob1, the most high-tech mobility scooter in the world. Satellite communications, bomb-proof, 0-60 in 3.6 seconds. Even a holder for the nuclear codes football.
    Don’t think I can aspire to that, but as soon as I can get out of the house I’m planning to get myself some sort of electric scooter.Sadly the chap I was planning races with has recently died.
    Sad to hear. You'll just have to take on Dura Ace now...


    https://newatlas.com/mobility-scooter-record/41749/
    I think he's hoping to log on later tonight, and read about an enjoyable pb punch up.

    Not sure OAP go karts is quite it.
    It's all he has to look forward to...
  • pm215pm215 Posts: 932
    edited March 2023
    MikeL said:

    Kamala Harris would be 60 in 2024 - normally you wouldn't waste a Supreme Court pick on someone that old. But of course there's no vacancy anyway.

    But I did see some suggestion that maybe Sotomayor could retire - she is 70 in 2024. Obviously replacing a 70 year old with a 60 year old is a net gain for the Dems.

    Seems very unlikely but IF for some reason Sotomayor did want to retire, it could work well.

    The "shuffle Harris off to the SC" theory has always seemed to me like one floated and passed on by people who really want to solve a problem so much that they're ignoring the implausibility of their proposed solution...
  • Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 2,466
    The problem with replacing Kamala Harris is that there aren't many people who tick all the identity boxes she does. I can't think of a single prominent Democrat who does. That's one of the prices of identity politics.

    It's my impression that Biden understands her weaknesses, and has been trying to strengthen her by giving her tasks she can handle -- and that will teach her something.

    (When Jimmy Carter was thinking about changes for his second term, he, or one of his aides, said some of their subordinates would have to go -- but not, of course, any of the women and minorities.)
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,213

    The problem with replacing Kamala Harris is that there aren't many people who tick all the identity boxes she does. I can't think of a single prominent Democrat who does. That's one of the prices of identity politics.

    And that's my problem with identity politics.

  • jamesdoylejamesdoyle Posts: 635
    GIN1138 said:

    Well... for starters there's no guarantee Biden will even be alive in November 2024.

    He is three years past average life expectancy for a US male so anything he gets from here is a bonus..

    As an 80 yo US male, he has a life expectancy of another 7 years. Overall life expectancy is misleading (very) for someone who is already elderly.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,374

    I've walked just over 2,000 miles in the last year

    And I've been a postie for six months of that

    I'm planning a holiday where I'll need to walk about 400 miles in three weeks

    Is that completely fucking mad?

    How old are you, if you don't mind me asking.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,928

    The problem with replacing Kamala Harris is that there aren't many people who tick all the identity boxes she does. I can't think of a single prominent Democrat who does. That's one of the prices of identity politics.

    It's my impression that Biden understands her weaknesses, and has been trying to strengthen her by giving her tasks she can handle -- and that will teach her something.

    (When Jimmy Carter was thinking about changes for his second term, he, or one of his aides, said some of their subordinates would have to go -- but not, of course, any of the women and minorities.)

    If the Democrats want to pick a VP candidate and Presidential candidate based on identity politics they will lose, badly and deserve to!
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,213

    GIN1138 said:

    Well... for starters there's no guarantee Biden will even be alive in November 2024.

    He is three years past average life expectancy for a US male so anything he gets from here is a bonus..

    As an 80 yo US male, he has a life expectancy of another 7 years. Overall life expectancy is misleading (very) for someone who is already elderly.
    If you're fit and healthy, you should make it into your 90s, so long as dementia/ alzheimer's don't rear their ugly head, or you succumb to cancer. More likely in your 80s but far from inevitable.

    What you really want is to be pretty good, except for the usual wear and tear, and then go suddenly in your late 90s aka DofE or HMQ.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,080
    Nigelb said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Buttigieg is already rumoured to be Biden's VP nominee if he wins the Democratic nomination again in 2024, particularly given his appeal to key white, graduate suburban swing voters who voted for Bush, Obama in 2008, narrowly for Romney in 2012, then Trump in 2016, then Biden in 2020. He would shift Harris to State or the SC.

    Buttigieg would then be in prime position to be Democratic candidate in 2028 assuming Biden is re elected.

    National polling numbers at this stage should not be overstated however, if DeSantis and Pence perform well against Trump in Iowa and New Hampshire they will be right back in contention for the GOP nomination

    For Buttigieg to be the VP nominee, the deep state would need to assassinate one of the judges so Kamala can join the Supreme Court bench. Bluntly, unless the Dems want Trump back in the White House, Kamala Harris will need to be bought off. She can't just be dropped without splitting the party.
    Yes she can, she is not very popular with the Black vote. Indeed in 2020 Biden-Harris got a lower share of the black vote than even Hillary did in 2016, let alone Obama in 2008 and 2012.

    Biden only won because he won White suburban voters who had voted for Trump in 2016. Biden will switch Harris to Secretary of State and make Buttigieg his VP nominee to appeal to those white suburban voters
    I somewhat doubt that.
    There is a story going round just now about Biden losing patience with Harris, but it seems to be exclusively (and simultaneously) in right wing outlets. Which doesn’t smell right.
    The right does not smell right?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,194
    1. In a major political development this evening, Israel's Defense Minister Yoav Galant has called for a "pause" in the legislation of the judicial overhaul led by the Netanyahu government. In Israel, the defense minister is regarded as the second most important minister…
    https://twitter.com/Nadav_Eyal/status/1639714171183943680

    Possible reprieve for democracy.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,044
    ydoethur said:

    All that being said, I do think Biden is rather old to run again. One big concern I have is if Trump isn't the nominee the Republican will merely have to point to his age.

    I know Reagan got away with it due to a magnificent one-line put down but Biden is (a) no Reagan and (b) much older.

    Nearly a decade older.

    Is there an obvious Democratic alternative? They bemoan the Republicans as the stupid party but don't seem to be blessed with great candidates themselves.
  • jamesdoylejamesdoyle Posts: 635

    GIN1138 said:

    Well... for starters there's no guarantee Biden will even be alive in November 2024.

    He is three years past average life expectancy for a US male so anything he gets from here is a bonus..

    As an 80 yo US male, he has a life expectancy of another 7 years. Overall life expectancy is misleading (very) for someone who is already elderly.
    If you're fit and healthy, you should make it into your 90s, so long as dementia/ alzheimer's don't rear their ugly head, or you succumb to cancer. More likely in your 80s but far from inevitable.

    What you really want is to be pretty good, except for the usual wear and tear, and then go suddenly in your late 90s aka DofE or HMQ.
    Sounds like a plan
  • pingping Posts: 3,731
    edited March 2023

    GIN1138 said:

    Well... for starters there's no guarantee Biden will even be alive in November 2024.

    He is three years past average life expectancy for a US male so anything he gets from here is a bonus..

    As an 80 yo US male, he has a life expectancy of another 7 years. Overall life expectancy is misleading (very) for someone who is already elderly.
    If you're fit and healthy, you should make it into your 90s, so long as dementia/ alzheimer's don't rear their ugly head, or you succumb to cancer. More likely in your 80s but far from inevitable.

    What you really want is to be pretty good, except for the usual wear and tear, and then go suddenly in your late 90s aka DofE or HMQ.
    I strongly suspect their unlikely “good health” until they suddenly dropped dead was mostly a fiction.

    It was rather impolite to question the official narrative, while they were alive, but now they’re both dead I don’t feel the need to maintain the fiction. The *perfectly healthy* and then drop dead in your late 90’s thing is, I would suggest, highly unusual.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,928

    ydoethur said:

    All that being said, I do think Biden is rather old to run again. One big concern I have is if Trump isn't the nominee the Republican will merely have to point to his age.

    I know Reagan got away with it due to a magnificent one-line put down but Biden is (a) no Reagan and (b) much older.

    Nearly a decade older.

    Is there an obvious Democratic alternative? They bemoan the Republicans as the stupid party but don't seem to be blessed with great candidates themselves.
    The Democrats are fortunate to have had 2 top class Presidential candidates within 20 years of each other, Obama and Bill Clinton. Otherwise they weren't able to produce a candidate of the same class before that since JFK and Bobby.

    Nor have they been able to since Obama either, though Buttigieg is probably the best of the next generation they have got
  • I just watched a YouTube advert for the NHS
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,031
    For WH24 I'm short Trump, flat Biden, long everyone else, and long Dems, short GOP. So that's the long and short of it.
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 10,775
    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    Farooq said:

    HYUFD said:

    Farooq said:

    Chris said:

    ...

    We finally got around to renewing our passports this week. (I haven't travelled abroad for years.)

    We'd thought maybe Paris, to have a nice weekend break.

    Hmmm. Nope.

    No Paris will be fine. In 2024. You'll be lucky to get your new passport back by 2023.

    Went up to Newport, in the Land of Dragons, to collect personally. Got booked in just before the strikes were announced.

    My luck ran out at Paris though!
    Newport? Paris? Much the same thing. Transporter Bridge = Eiffel Tower.
    Also St Woolos Cathedral = Notre Dame. It really is quite spooky:
    image
    image
    Oh wow that takes me back. I had sex in that churchyard.
    It wasn't nearly as warm that night as it seems to be in that photo.
    How disrespectful, it would be a graveyard after all
    So what? Sex isn't wrong and the dead don't care what we do. It's not like I was splashing over someone's floral arrangement.
    It is gross disrespect, a churchyard is a sacred place for Christians connected to the Church. What do you think the reaction would be if you had sex in a Muslim cemetery from your family and Muslim friends?
    It would depend on the quality of the video
    He was also lucky not to be arrested for outraging public decency
    That crime requires that two other people are present and capable of seeing said act. There was nobody else there other than me and my very temporary lover, so you'll have to find a new crime with which to charge me.
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 10,775
    edited March 2023
    HYUFD said:

    The problem with replacing Kamala Harris is that there aren't many people who tick all the identity boxes she does. I can't think of a single prominent Democrat who does. That's one of the prices of identity politics.

    It's my impression that Biden understands her weaknesses, and has been trying to strengthen her by giving her tasks she can handle -- and that will teach her something.

    (When Jimmy Carter was thinking about changes for his second term, he, or one of his aides, said some of their subordinates would have to go -- but not, of course, any of the women and minorities.)

    If the Democrats want to pick a VP candidate and Presidential candidate based on identity politics they will lose, badly and deserve to!
    Of course, the Republicans pick their candidates on the quality of their ideas.
  • Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 2,466
    Just for the record: I am not a fan of identity politics -- but am practical enough to recognize its power in the US. If, for example, I had been asked to pick a Republican ticket with the best chance of winning in 2016, I would have chosen John Kasich and Marco Rubio*.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Kasich
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marco_Rubio

    The US isn't the only nation where identity politics works. Correct me if I am wrong on this, but I believe David Cameron was trying to broaden the appeal of the Conservative Party by encouraging more ethnic minorities to run for parliament. And, as I understand it, the Labour Party has actually reserved seats for women.

    (*Republicans do best when they nominate candidates who did not inherit wealth, Eisenhower and Reagan being the two most obvious examples. In contrast, Democrats can get away with nominating plutocrats.)
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,044
    Nigelb said:

    1. In a major political development this evening, Israel's Defense Minister Yoav Galant has called for a "pause" in the legislation of the judicial overhaul led by the Netanyahu government. In Israel, the defense minister is regarded as the second most important minister…
    https://twitter.com/Nadav_Eyal/status/1639714171183943680

    Possible reprieve for democracy.

    Rishi done it again has he?

    In all seriousness I doubt it but if a few people around the world think that we're wielding such influence who cares?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,928
    edited March 2023

    Just for the record: I am not a fan of identity politics -- but am practical enough to recognize its power in the US. If, for example, I had been asked to pick a Republican ticket with the best chance of winning in 2016, I would have chosen John Kasich and Marco Rubio*.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Kasich
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marco_Rubio

    The US isn't the only nation where identity politics works. Correct me if I am wrong on this, but I believe David Cameron was trying to broaden the appeal of the Conservative Party by encouraging more ethnic minorities to run for parliament. And, as I understand it, the Labour Party has actually reserved seats for women.

    (*Republicans do best when they nominate candidates who did not inherit wealth, Eisenhower and Reagan being the two most obvious examples. In contrast, Democrats can get away with nominating plutocrats.)

    Oh really, the only election winning Republican Presidential candidates alive, Bush 43 and Trump, both inherited significant wealth. As did Bush 41.

    Bill Clinton and Obama and Biden however didn't inherit much. Indeed the last Democrat President who did was JFK (arguably Carter too but that was mainly the family farm and business)
This discussion has been closed.