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R&W has the worst voting poll in months for the Tories – politicalbetting.com

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  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 118,215
    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Chris said:

    I can’t say I really understand the concept of voting against gay marriage for religious reasons. I get that you might believe that in your church or faith or religion it would not be accepted. And I am not a proponent of requiring religious officials to marry people against their beliefs. But to me it seems really weird to be against it so fundamentally as a concept in a civil or (where different religions or officials want to) religious context outside of your own beliefs. Just let it take place if people want it to. It doesn’t affect your practices.

    Forbes is going to really struggle with this now.

    I'm not sure you've entirely grasped this religion thing.

    If you believe in a God who is the sole arbiter of right and wrong, and if you believe that our duty is to serve that God absolutely, and if you believe God considers gay sex to be a sin (perhaps even to the extent of punishing gays in ways that would contravene the UN Convention against Torture), then where on earth (or beyond) would voting in favour of gay marriage fit into that general picture?
    Jesus never opposed homosexual unions
    Huge if true. Is your name IshmaelZ by any chance?

    The chap was a Jewish rabbi. Perhaps you could point out the relevant bit in the NT where it says "OT Leviticus x, verses y-z, cut out and paste this replacement in, clause 2, subclause i, sections 4-5".
    No, he wasn't, he was the Christian Messiah. If he was Jewish at the Crucifixion Christianity would never have been founded, he made clear he wanted a new covenant.

    Though I do recognise the current favourite for your party's leadership does take a firmly anti gay marriage line and interprets the Bible as you do. Incorrectly in my Anglican view.

    So it is hardly a surprise if SNP supporters like you are having to start practising the anti homosexual unions line
    That's at least two sentences that are complete bollocks, to coin an expression.

    And as for the first sentence: Matthew 5:17–18 is all that is needed.


    17 uThink not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, xTill heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
    Yes he didn't abolish the Ten Commandments (which didn't mention homosexuality either).

    You better get practising though on that homophobia given the direction your party is heading in!!
    I've been pointing out the homophobia of the C of E for months now. Contrary to decency and the law of the land. Bit late for you to lecture on the matter.
    The C of E which has just voted to bless gay couples (despite opposition from evangelicals and African churches).

    Your party may well be about to elect a leader however firmly in league with evangelicals and African churches which oppose homosexual unions and homosexual marriage.

    So either you leave the SNP if Forbes is elected leader or you are nothing but a bare faced hypocrite!!
    I'll worry about that if it happens. Which is looking less and less likely, and we have almost a week now for more developments.

    Hmm. Don't remember you resigning from the Tories when Mr J became RC. Yet you're always going on about the need for the Established Church in England to protect England against RC domination, the need to defend Protestants in NI, how awful it is that the RCs are the lagrest church in Scotland, and so on.
    Boris never proposed to disestablish the Church of England
  • Options
    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Chris said:

    I can’t say I really understand the concept of voting against gay marriage for religious reasons. I get that you might believe that in your church or faith or religion it would not be accepted. And I am not a proponent of requiring religious officials to marry people against their beliefs. But to me it seems really weird to be against it so fundamentally as a concept in a civil or (where different religions or officials want to) religious context outside of your own beliefs. Just let it take place if people want it to. It doesn’t affect your practices.

    Forbes is going to really struggle with this now.

    I'm not sure you've entirely grasped this religion thing.

    If you believe in a God who is the sole arbiter of right and wrong, and if you believe that our duty is to serve that God absolutely, and if you believe God considers gay sex to be a sin (perhaps even to the extent of punishing gays in ways that would contravene the UN Convention against Torture), then where on earth (or beyond) would voting in favour of gay marriage fit into that general picture?
    Jesus never opposed homosexual unions
    Huge if true. Is your name IshmaelZ by any chance?

    The chap was a Jewish rabbi. Perhaps you could point out the relevant bit in the NT where it says "OT Leviticus x, verses y-z, cut out and paste this replacement in, clause 2, subclause i, sections 4-5".
    No, he wasn't, he was the Christian Messiah. If he was Jewish at the Crucifixion Christianity would never have been founded, he made clear he wanted a new covenant.

    Though I do recognise the current favourite for your party's leadership does take a firmly anti gay marriage line and interprets the Bible as you do. Incorrectly in my Anglican view.

    So it is hardly a surprise if SNP supporters like you are having to start practising the anti homosexual unions line
    That's at least two sentences that are complete bollocks, to coin an expression.

    And as for the first sentence: Matthew 5:17–18 is all that is needed.


    17 uThink not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, xTill heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
    Yes he didn't abolish the Ten Commandments (which didn't mention homosexuality either).

    You better get practising though on that homophobia given the direction your party is heading in!!
    I've been pointing out the homophobia of the C of E for months now. Contrary to decency and the law of the land. Bit late for you to lecture on the matter.
    The C of E which has just voted to bless gay couples (despite opposition from evangelicals and African churches).

    Your party may well be about to elect a leader however firmly in league with evangelicals and African churches which oppose homosexual unions and homosexual marriage.

    So either you leave the SNP if Forbes is elected leader or you are nothing but a bare faced hypocrite!!
    I'll worry about that if it happens. Which is looking less and less likely, and we have almost a week now for more developments.

    Hmm. Don't remember you resigning from the Tories when Mr J became RC. Yet you're always going on about the need for the Established Church in England to protect England against RC domination, the need to defend Protestants in NI, how awful it is that the RCs are the lagrest church in Scotland, and so on.
    Boris never proposed to disestablish the Church of England
    Just disestablished society instead, cheers mate
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 33,148

    MJW said:

    Yes. The weirdest thing about the 'culture wars' is that the Tories seem to be repeating the mistakes of those they claim to oppose. There are some fair and reasonable criticisms of what gets called 'wokeness' - basically ultra progressive stances that won't brook dissent. But if you're constantly wanging on about it, lumping in any attitude to the left of Genghis Khan with it and deliberately doing stuff designed to 'own the libs' you look deeply weird and are as irritating if not more as those who hectored from the other side in the first place. I think paradoxically, you win culture wars by defusing them as makes the other side look like the mad extremists while the public, who largely want to get on with life in peace, side with those who seem more reasonable. Sunak's big asset was supposed to be pouring oil on troubled waters, but he's so weak at running his party has basically been led into inflaming matters by promoting or re-promoting some of the most gleefully obnoxious of his party's MPs.

    You saw it today, Rishi wading into a book being re-published: how wokeness is destroying the planet. FFS the NHS is on its knees and half the country is on strike. It is pathetic.

    If the next election gets rid of this rubbish I will be thankful. Trans people don't scare me, they don't impact my life whatsoever. Apparently I can't say anything anymore, I still say what I want and am not in jail yet. They are totally on another planet.
    I have to admit that I was earlier of the opinion "what a storm in a woke teacup", Augustus Gloop for example, is characterised by his over indulgence and as such he is f**. But later I learned the amendments were agreed between Puffin Books and the Dahl Estate and not the Great Socialist Conspiracy. Apparently raging anti-Semite as he was, Dahl was involved in his own PC related amendments during his lifetime. It's a funny old game Saint.
    Many book publishers will refuse to publish books seen as 'controversial' (which are always right-wing or which are viewed to express non-progressive views), in part because their junior staff refuse to be associated with it and / or the senior publishers don't get the backlash.

    JK Rowling only gets away with it because Bloomsbury's share price would be down 25% in the morning if they stopped their deal with her and the management team would be kicked out by investors. Which just goes to show how principles can easily be trumped by good old money .
    Wait. JK Rowling's books a right-wing??!
  • Options
    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 34,497
    Ruth Davidson @RuthDavidsonPC

    (Obviously) I'm not an in-depth student of the SNP membership, but I'm pretty sure that, with this, Kate Forbes has just set fire to her leadership campaign on the very same day as she launched it.
    https://twitter.com/RuthDavidsonPC/status/1627750276995158041

    Alexander Brown
    @AlexofBrown
    Senior member of Kate Forbes campaign says "she has fucked it" after the finance secretary said she would have voted against gay marriage

  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 33,148

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Chris said:

    I can’t say I really understand the concept of voting against gay marriage for religious reasons. I get that you might believe that in your church or faith or religion it would not be accepted. And I am not a proponent of requiring religious officials to marry people against their beliefs. But to me it seems really weird to be against it so fundamentally as a concept in a civil or (where different religions or officials want to) religious context outside of your own beliefs. Just let it take place if people want it to. It doesn’t affect your practices.

    Forbes is going to really struggle with this now.

    I'm not sure you've entirely grasped this religion thing.

    If you believe in a God who is the sole arbiter of right and wrong, and if you believe that our duty is to serve that God absolutely, and if you believe God considers gay sex to be a sin (perhaps even to the extent of punishing gays in ways that would contravene the UN Convention against Torture), then where on earth (or beyond) would voting in favour of gay marriage fit into that general picture?
    Jesus never opposed homosexual unions
    Huge if true. Is your name IshmaelZ by any chance?

    The chap was a Jewish rabbi. Perhaps you could point out the relevant bit in the NT where it says "OT Leviticus x, verses y-z, cut out and paste this replacement in, clause 2, subclause i, sections 4-5".
    No, he wasn't, he was the Christian Messiah. If he was Jewish at the Crucifixion Christianity would never have been founded, he made clear he wanted a new covenant.

    Though I do recognise the current favourite for your party's leadership does take a firmly anti gay marriage line and interprets the Bible as you do. Incorrectly in my Anglican view.

    So it is hardly a surprise if SNP supporters like you are having to start practising the anti homosexual unions line
    That's at least two sentences that are complete bollocks, to coin an expression.

    And as for the first sentence: Matthew 5:17–18 is all that is needed.


    17 uThink not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, xTill heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
    Yes he didn't abolish the Ten Commandments (which didn't mention homosexuality either).

    You better get practising though on that homophobia given the direction your party is heading in!!
    I've been pointing out the homophobia of the C of E for months now. Contrary to decency and the law of the land. Bit late for you to lecture on the matter.
    The C of E which has just voted to bless gay couples (despite opposition from evangelicals and African churches).

    Your party may well be about to elect a leader however firmly in league with evangelicals and African churches which oppose homosexual unions and homosexual marriage.

    So either you leave the SNP if Forbes is elected leader or you are nothing but a bare faced hypocrite!!
    I'll worry about that if it happens. Which is looking less and less likely, and we have almost a week now for more developments.

    Hmm. Don't remember you resigning from the Tories when Mr J became RC. Yet you're always going on about the need for the Established Church in England to protect England against RC domination, the need to defend Protestants in NI, how awful it is that the RCs are the lagrest church in Scotland, and so on.
    Boris never proposed to disestablish the Church of England
    Just disestablished society instead, cheers mate
    Disestablish the law from himself.
  • Options

    MJW said:

    Yes. The weirdest thing about the 'culture wars' is that the Tories seem to be repeating the mistakes of those they claim to oppose. There are some fair and reasonable criticisms of what gets called 'wokeness' - basically ultra progressive stances that won't brook dissent. But if you're constantly wanging on about it, lumping in any attitude to the left of Genghis Khan with it and deliberately doing stuff designed to 'own the libs' you look deeply weird and are as irritating if not more as those who hectored from the other side in the first place. I think paradoxically, you win culture wars by defusing them as makes the other side look like the mad extremists while the public, who largely want to get on with life in peace, side with those who seem more reasonable. Sunak's big asset was supposed to be pouring oil on troubled waters, but he's so weak at running his party has basically been led into inflaming matters by promoting or re-promoting some of the most gleefully obnoxious of his party's MPs.

    You saw it today, Rishi wading into a book being re-published: how wokeness is destroying the planet. FFS the NHS is on its knees and half the country is on strike. It is pathetic.

    If the next election gets rid of this rubbish I will be thankful. Trans people don't scare me, they don't impact my life whatsoever. Apparently I can't say anything anymore, I still say what I want and am not in jail yet. They are totally on another planet.
    Maybe because what you want to say matches the prevailing ‘correct’ speech? Look at the fuss about Forbes today. She is entitled to her view about gay marriage. And yet people are decrying it. Certain views and expressions become the only accepted view. Take the phrase ‘coloured people’ vs ‘people of colour’. One of those is allowed, one isn’t. Who decides this shit? And when an older person gets it ‘wrong’ they are publicly castigated.
    I believe in politeness, treating people with respect and don’t be a dick. Too much of this is extreme wokeists being a dick. But then the right should try not to get sucked in quite so much.
    Same sort of thing with immigration.

    Go to most inner-city districts in Manchester for example and they have gone from mainly white 30 years ago to very non-white. The few white people left feel like they are swamped but, if they say that, they are racist.

    Yet if you go to the places where the people who call them racist live (Didsbury / West Didsbury, Hale, Cheadle etc to continue the Manchester vibe), they are so white you have to wear sunglasses. No mixed couples - all white. No mixed kids - all white.

    To people living in those districts, talk of being swamped makes no sense because they don't see in their home lives. Sure, they've got the 'cool' Black guy who works in IT or Imran who is on their team but their friends, their closest contact, their families - all white.
    Not my experience tbh. Worked in Halifax - very little racism evident; lived in a village near Selby - quite a lot of casual racism, sadly.

    The former was very racially diverse, the latter very white.
    Without having direct knowledge of those places, I would imagine the village was very white but also very working class.

    The places I'm talking about in Manchester are very white but also very graduate professional and wealthy enclaves. They don't see immigration as a problem because, quite frankly, they don't encounter that many in their areas (and those they do are similarly wealthy and educated, not having come from Somalia in the past 12 months).
  • Options
    algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 11,221

    I can’t say I really understand the concept of voting against gay marriage for religious reasons. I get that you might believe that in your church or faith or religion it would not be accepted. And I am not a proponent of requiring religious officials to marry people against their beliefs. But to me it seems really weird to be against it so fundamentally as a concept in a civil or (where different religions or officials want to) religious context outside of your own beliefs. Just let it take place if people want it to. It doesn’t affect your practices.

    Forbes is going to really struggle with this now.

    What would be wrong about voting against gay marriage if, for example, you think that civil partnership is the better answer for the general good of society?

    Yes, it will be interesting to see if Forbes can survive the onslaught.
  • Options

    MJW said:

    Yes. The weirdest thing about the 'culture wars' is that the Tories seem to be repeating the mistakes of those they claim to oppose. There are some fair and reasonable criticisms of what gets called 'wokeness' - basically ultra progressive stances that won't brook dissent. But if you're constantly wanging on about it, lumping in any attitude to the left of Genghis Khan with it and deliberately doing stuff designed to 'own the libs' you look deeply weird and are as irritating if not more as those who hectored from the other side in the first place. I think paradoxically, you win culture wars by defusing them as makes the other side look like the mad extremists while the public, who largely want to get on with life in peace, side with those who seem more reasonable. Sunak's big asset was supposed to be pouring oil on troubled waters, but he's so weak at running his party has basically been led into inflaming matters by promoting or re-promoting some of the most gleefully obnoxious of his party's MPs.

    You saw it today, Rishi wading into a book being re-published: how wokeness is destroying the planet. FFS the NHS is on its knees and half the country is on strike. It is pathetic.

    If the next election gets rid of this rubbish I will be thankful. Trans people don't scare me, they don't impact my life whatsoever. Apparently I can't say anything anymore, I still say what I want and am not in jail yet. They are totally on another planet.
    I have to admit that I was earlier of the opinion "what a storm in a woke teacup", Augustus Gloop for example, is characterised by his over indulgence and as such he is f**. But later I learned the amendments were agreed between Puffin Books and the Dahl Estate and not the Great Socialist Conspiracy. Apparently raging anti-Semite as he was, Dahl was involved in his own PC related amendments during his lifetime. It's a funny old game Saint.
    Many book publishers will refuse to publish books seen as 'controversial' (which are always right-wing or which are viewed to express non-progressive views), in part because their junior staff refuse to be associated with it and / or the senior publishers don't get the backlash.

    JK Rowling only gets away with it because Bloomsbury's share price would be down 25% in the morning if they stopped their deal with her and the management team would be kicked out by investors. Which just goes to show how principles can easily be trumped by good old money .
    Wait. JK Rowling's books a right-wing??!
    This is just some vague attempt to smash the libs because of the trans stuff.

    FFS she was a massive Blair fan. The books were at one point called left wing wank material
  • Options
    turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 15,918

    MJW said:

    Yes. The weirdest thing about the 'culture wars' is that the Tories seem to be repeating the mistakes of those they claim to oppose. There are some fair and reasonable criticisms of what gets called 'wokeness' - basically ultra progressive stances that won't brook dissent. But if you're constantly wanging on about it, lumping in any attitude to the left of Genghis Khan with it and deliberately doing stuff designed to 'own the libs' you look deeply weird and are as irritating if not more as those who hectored from the other side in the first place. I think paradoxically, you win culture wars by defusing them as makes the other side look like the mad extremists while the public, who largely want to get on with life in peace, side with those who seem more reasonable. Sunak's big asset was supposed to be pouring oil on troubled waters, but he's so weak at running his party has basically been led into inflaming matters by promoting or re-promoting some of the most gleefully obnoxious of his party's MPs.

    You saw it today, Rishi wading into a book being re-published: how wokeness is destroying the planet. FFS the NHS is on its knees and half the country is on strike. It is pathetic.

    If the next election gets rid of this rubbish I will be thankful. Trans people don't scare me, they don't impact my life whatsoever. Apparently I can't say anything anymore, I still say what I want and am not in jail yet. They are totally on another planet.
    I have to admit that I was earlier of the opinion "what a storm in a woke teacup", Augustus Gloop for example, is characterised by his over indulgence and as such he is f**. But later I learned the amendments were agreed between Puffin Books and the Dahl Estate and not the Great Socialist Conspiracy. Apparently raging anti-Semite as he was, Dahl was involved in his own PC related amendments during his lifetime. It's a funny old game Saint.
    He was - the Oompa-Loompas were once a lot more problematic. I think changing his text after his death is rather sinister though. Art is of its time. All art. Feel free to explain, but why change the art?
    Why is the PM involved though? What’s he got to do with it except point scoring.

    If the organisation that own the rights want to change it that is up to them. As it happens I don’t agree with changing the books but they’re a private organisation and they can do what they want. Won’t impact me at all, I will still buy the books in future.
    He was asked a question FFS. He gave an answer.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 46,007

    MJW said:

    Yes. The weirdest thing about the 'culture wars' is that the Tories seem to be repeating the mistakes of those they claim to oppose. There are some fair and reasonable criticisms of what gets called 'wokeness' - basically ultra progressive stances that won't brook dissent. But if you're constantly wanging on about it, lumping in any attitude to the left of Genghis Khan with it and deliberately doing stuff designed to 'own the libs' you look deeply weird and are as irritating if not more as those who hectored from the other side in the first place. I think paradoxically, you win culture wars by defusing them as makes the other side look like the mad extremists while the public, who largely want to get on with life in peace, side with those who seem more reasonable. Sunak's big asset was supposed to be pouring oil on troubled waters, but he's so weak at running his party has basically been led into inflaming matters by promoting or re-promoting some of the most gleefully obnoxious of his party's MPs.

    You saw it today, Rishi wading into a book being re-published: how wokeness is destroying the planet. FFS the NHS is on its knees and half the country is on strike. It is pathetic.

    If the next election gets rid of this rubbish I will be thankful. Trans people don't scare me, they don't impact my life whatsoever. Apparently I can't say anything anymore, I still say what I want and am not in jail yet. They are totally on another planet.
    I have to admit that I was earlier of the opinion "what a storm in a woke teacup", Augustus Gloop for example, is characterised by his over indulgence and as such he is f**. But later I learned the amendments were agreed between Puffin Books and the Dahl Estate and not the Great Socialist Conspiracy. Apparently raging anti-Semite as he was, Dahl was involved in his own PC related amendments during his lifetime. It's a funny old game Saint.
    Children's books are of their time. I was brought up on Biggles, Molesworth, Famous Five and Commando comics. Not really the cup of tea of my boys, who preferred Captain Underpants, Charlie Higson and some rather derivative pulp fantasy stuff. Fashions change and I was never a fan of Dahl particularly myself.

    Get kids hooked on reading, but resist temptation to force on them books that you liked as a youth.
  • Options

    MJW said:

    Yes. The weirdest thing about the 'culture wars' is that the Tories seem to be repeating the mistakes of those they claim to oppose. There are some fair and reasonable criticisms of what gets called 'wokeness' - basically ultra progressive stances that won't brook dissent. But if you're constantly wanging on about it, lumping in any attitude to the left of Genghis Khan with it and deliberately doing stuff designed to 'own the libs' you look deeply weird and are as irritating if not more as those who hectored from the other side in the first place. I think paradoxically, you win culture wars by defusing them as makes the other side look like the mad extremists while the public, who largely want to get on with life in peace, side with those who seem more reasonable. Sunak's big asset was supposed to be pouring oil on troubled waters, but he's so weak at running his party has basically been led into inflaming matters by promoting or re-promoting some of the most gleefully obnoxious of his party's MPs.

    You saw it today, Rishi wading into a book being re-published: how wokeness is destroying the planet. FFS the NHS is on its knees and half the country is on strike. It is pathetic.

    If the next election gets rid of this rubbish I will be thankful. Trans people don't scare me, they don't impact my life whatsoever. Apparently I can't say anything anymore, I still say what I want and am not in jail yet. They are totally on another planet.
    I have to admit that I was earlier of the opinion "what a storm in a woke teacup", Augustus Gloop for example, is characterised by his over indulgence and as such he is f**. But later I learned the amendments were agreed between Puffin Books and the Dahl Estate and not the Great Socialist Conspiracy. Apparently raging anti-Semite as he was, Dahl was involved in his own PC related amendments during his lifetime. It's a funny old game Saint.
    He was - the Oompa-Loompas were once a lot more problematic. I think changing his text after his death is rather sinister though. Art is of its time. All art. Feel free to explain, but why change the art?
    Why is the PM involved though? What’s he got to do with it except point scoring.

    If the organisation that own the rights want to change it that is up to them. As it happens I don’t agree with changing the books but they’re a private organisation and they can do what they want. Won’t impact me at all, I will still buy the books in future.
    He was asked a question FFS. He gave an answer.
    He didn’t need to answer. He doesn’t answer anything else he is asked.
  • Options
    turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 15,918

    MJW said:

    Yes. The weirdest thing about the 'culture wars' is that the Tories seem to be repeating the mistakes of those they claim to oppose. There are some fair and reasonable criticisms of what gets called 'wokeness' - basically ultra progressive stances that won't brook dissent. But if you're constantly wanging on about it, lumping in any attitude to the left of Genghis Khan with it and deliberately doing stuff designed to 'own the libs' you look deeply weird and are as irritating if not more as those who hectored from the other side in the first place. I think paradoxically, you win culture wars by defusing them as makes the other side look like the mad extremists while the public, who largely want to get on with life in peace, side with those who seem more reasonable. Sunak's big asset was supposed to be pouring oil on troubled waters, but he's so weak at running his party has basically been led into inflaming matters by promoting or re-promoting some of the most gleefully obnoxious of his party's MPs.

    You saw it today, Rishi wading into a book being re-published: how wokeness is destroying the planet. FFS the NHS is on its knees and half the country is on strike. It is pathetic.

    If the next election gets rid of this rubbish I will be thankful. Trans people don't scare me, they don't impact my life whatsoever. Apparently I can't say anything anymore, I still say what I want and am not in jail yet. They are totally on another planet.
    I have to admit that I was earlier of the opinion "what a storm in a woke teacup", Augustus Gloop for example, is characterised by his over indulgence and as such he is f**. But later I learned the amendments were agreed between Puffin Books and the Dahl Estate and not the Great Socialist Conspiracy. Apparently raging anti-Semite as he was, Dahl was involved in his own PC related amendments during his lifetime. It's a funny old game Saint.
    He was - the Oompa-Loompas were once a lot more problematic. I think changing his text after his death is rather sinister though. Art is of its time. All art. Feel free to explain, but why change the art?
    Why is the PM involved though? What’s he got to do with it except point scoring.

    If the organisation that own the rights want to change it that is up to them. As it happens I don’t agree with changing the books but they’re a private organisation and they can do what they want. Won’t impact me at all, I will still buy the books in future.
    So you also agree with Sunak on this issue?
  • Options
    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 34,497
    @BrianSpanner1: Bloody hell.
    He was in the Parliament building.
    Well played Team Forbes.
    https://twitter.com/BrianSpanner1/status/1627782499232350209/photo/1
  • Options

    MJW said:

    Yes. The weirdest thing about the 'culture wars' is that the Tories seem to be repeating the mistakes of those they claim to oppose. There are some fair and reasonable criticisms of what gets called 'wokeness' - basically ultra progressive stances that won't brook dissent. But if you're constantly wanging on about it, lumping in any attitude to the left of Genghis Khan with it and deliberately doing stuff designed to 'own the libs' you look deeply weird and are as irritating if not more as those who hectored from the other side in the first place. I think paradoxically, you win culture wars by defusing them as makes the other side look like the mad extremists while the public, who largely want to get on with life in peace, side with those who seem more reasonable. Sunak's big asset was supposed to be pouring oil on troubled waters, but he's so weak at running his party has basically been led into inflaming matters by promoting or re-promoting some of the most gleefully obnoxious of his party's MPs.

    You saw it today, Rishi wading into a book being re-published: how wokeness is destroying the planet. FFS the NHS is on its knees and half the country is on strike. It is pathetic.

    If the next election gets rid of this rubbish I will be thankful. Trans people don't scare me, they don't impact my life whatsoever. Apparently I can't say anything anymore, I still say what I want and am not in jail yet. They are totally on another planet.
    Maybe because what you want to say matches the prevailing ‘correct’ speech? Look at the fuss about Forbes today. She is entitled to her view about gay marriage. And yet people are decrying it. Certain views and expressions become the only accepted view. Take the phrase ‘coloured people’ vs ‘people of colour’. One of those is allowed, one isn’t. Who decides this shit? And when an older person gets it ‘wrong’ they are publicly castigated.
    I believe in politeness, treating people with respect and don’t be a dick. Too much of this is extreme wokeists being a dick. But then the right should try not to get sucked in quite so much.
    Same sort of thing with immigration.

    Go to most inner-city districts in Manchester for example and they have gone from mainly white 30 years ago to very non-white. The few white people left feel like they are swamped but, if they say that, they are racist.

    Yet if you go to the places where the people who call them racist live (Didsbury / West Didsbury, Hale, Cheadle etc to continue the Manchester vibe), they are so white you have to wear sunglasses. No mixed couples - all white. No mixed kids - all white.

    To people living in those districts, talk of being swamped makes no sense because they don't see in their home lives. Sure, they've got the 'cool' Black guy who works in IT or Imran who is on their team but their friends, their closest contact, their families - all white.
    Not my experience tbh. Worked in Halifax - very little racism evident; lived in a village near Selby - quite a lot of casual racism, sadly.

    The former was very racially diverse, the latter very white.
    Without having direct knowledge of those places, I would imagine the village was very white but also very working class.

    The places I'm talking about in Manchester are very white but also very graduate professional and wealthy enclaves. They don't see immigration as a problem because, quite frankly, they don't encounter that many in their areas (and those they do are similarly wealthy and educated, not having come from Somalia in the past 12 months).
    Okay but in London it’s all sorts of people and I don’t see much racism around from people. Perhaps because other people aren’t actually very scary?
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 41,074
    Foxy said:

    MJW said:

    Yes. The weirdest thing about the 'culture wars' is that the Tories seem to be repeating the mistakes of those they claim to oppose. There are some fair and reasonable criticisms of what gets called 'wokeness' - basically ultra progressive stances that won't brook dissent. But if you're constantly wanging on about it, lumping in any attitude to the left of Genghis Khan with it and deliberately doing stuff designed to 'own the libs' you look deeply weird and are as irritating if not more as those who hectored from the other side in the first place. I think paradoxically, you win culture wars by defusing them as makes the other side look like the mad extremists while the public, who largely want to get on with life in peace, side with those who seem more reasonable. Sunak's big asset was supposed to be pouring oil on troubled waters, but he's so weak at running his party has basically been led into inflaming matters by promoting or re-promoting some of the most gleefully obnoxious of his party's MPs.

    You saw it today, Rishi wading into a book being re-published: how wokeness is destroying the planet. FFS the NHS is on its knees and half the country is on strike. It is pathetic.

    If the next election gets rid of this rubbish I will be thankful. Trans people don't scare me, they don't impact my life whatsoever. Apparently I can't say anything anymore, I still say what I want and am not in jail yet. They are totally on another planet.
    I have to admit that I was earlier of the opinion "what a storm in a woke teacup", Augustus Gloop for example, is characterised by his over indulgence and as such he is f**. But later I learned the amendments were agreed between Puffin Books and the Dahl Estate and not the Great Socialist Conspiracy. Apparently raging anti-Semite as he was, Dahl was involved in his own PC related amendments during his lifetime. It's a funny old game Saint.
    Children's books are of their time. I was brought up on Biggles, Molesworth, Famous Five and Commando comics. Not really the cup of tea of my boys, who preferred Captain Underpants, Charlie Higson and some rather derivative pulp fantasy stuff. Fashions change and I was never a fan of Dahl particularly myself.

    Get kids hooked on reading, but resist temptation to force on them books that you liked as a youth.
    Quite. Same with our niece. Though my favourites were Walkabout, Brumby and Tiger in the Dark. Finally got to see the outback for our 50th birthday treat ...
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    maxhmaxh Posts: 958

    maxh said:

    maxh said:

    maxh said:

    Boring Starmer leading the way 😂

    How does 'Boredom You Can Afford' sound as an election slogan?
    They should just bring back the slogans Brown would have used in 2007.

    E.g.





    This one is the one that would do the best IMHO:


    Thanks for dredging these up. Not flash, just Gordon is easily my favourite political slogan of all time. So apt. Still makes me smile.
    Not going for that election was a huge mistake. We'd have avoided all this chaos.
    Even if he had won, he had nothing left, no big ideas. He wanted to be PM for so long, but had no idea what to do with it.
    His legacy is all around - lovely hospitals and schools bought using PFI and we are still paying the cost. He genuinely believed he had abolished boom and bust, which rather says it all.

    He was and is a decent human being, but
    un suited to being pm.
    Agreed, though that recent Blair-Brown documentary does make me wonder - why did Brown do the PFI crap? He was more left wing than Blair - was Brown pushed into PFI or was he the instigator? It’s before my time politically. Just seems so obviously crap in hindsight.
    He found PFI as a way to keep to the spending plans. Under Blair, it was all about more money for schools and hospitals - but holding to spending targets. Killing road construction and some other infrastructure projects helped, but there was always more to do.

    PFI was a bit of an addiction in the end - spending that pushed the actual spending into the future. I’ll be good next week…..
    Thanks, that fits with the impression I have of him and makes a lot of sense. He wanted to spend more but had to get round Blair’s restraining spending targets.

    But it still doesn’t add up for me (excuse the pun) - for all his faults he strikes me as both intelligent and a man of integrity and I struggle to believe that he couldn’t foresee the downsides of PFI. Which makes me think @lostpassword is right and he didn’t really care about the long term consequences. Politicians, eh?
    He really wanted to get those things done. He wanted it, the MPs in the Labour Party wanted it. The Unions wanted it. Everyone wanted it. Everyone didn't want big tax rises as well. It was the easy solution. And once you start with the easy solution...

    A number of politicians have described the difficulty of pulling out of the tactical level to even get a look at the medium term - everyone wants something from you now.
    True but for a decent politician that must be matched with fine tuned antennae about which tactical solutions to steer clear of. Like others have said there were better solutions at the time even if only working at the tactical level given the constraints you mention (eg borrowing directly) but I get that this wasn’t appealing for political reasons.

    Anyway, thanks, I understand more about this (from you and others) than I did this morning!
  • Options
    DougSeal said:

    MJW said:

    Yes. The weirdest thing about the 'culture wars' is that the Tories seem to be repeating the mistakes of those they claim to oppose. There are some fair and reasonable criticisms of what gets called 'wokeness' - basically ultra progressive stances that won't brook dissent. But if you're constantly wanging on about it, lumping in any attitude to the left of Genghis Khan with it and deliberately doing stuff designed to 'own the libs' you look deeply weird and are as irritating if not more as those who hectored from the other side in the first place. I think paradoxically, you win culture wars by defusing them as makes the other side look like the mad extremists while the public, who largely want to get on with life in peace, side with those who seem more reasonable. Sunak's big asset was supposed to be pouring oil on troubled waters, but he's so weak at running his party has basically been led into inflaming matters by promoting or re-promoting some of the most gleefully obnoxious of his party's MPs.

    You saw it today, Rishi wading into a book being re-published: how wokeness is destroying the planet. FFS the NHS is on its knees and half the country is on strike. It is pathetic.

    If the next election gets rid of this rubbish I will be thankful. Trans people don't scare me, they don't impact my life whatsoever. Apparently I can't say anything anymore, I still say what I want and am not in jail yet. They are totally on another planet.
    Maybe because what you want to say matches the prevailing ‘correct’ speech? Look at the fuss about Forbes today. She is entitled to her view about gay marriage. And yet people are decrying it. Certain views and expressions become the only accepted view. Take the phrase ‘coloured people’ vs ‘people of colour’. One of those is allowed, one isn’t. Who decides this shit? And when an older person gets it ‘wrong’ they are publicly castigated.
    I believe in politeness, treating people with respect and don’t be a dick. Too much of this is extreme wokeists being a dick. But then the right should try not to get sucked in quite so much.
    Same sort of thing with immigration.

    Go to most inner-city districts in Manchester for example and they have gone from mainly white 30 years ago to very non-white. The few white people left feel like they are swamped but, if they say that, they are racist.

    Yet if you go to the places where the people who call them racist live (Didsbury / West Didsbury, Hale, Cheadle etc to continue the Manchester vibe), they are so white you have to wear sunglasses. No mixed couples - all white. No mixed kids - all white.

    To people living in those districts, talk of being swamped makes no sense because they don't see in their home lives. Sure, they've got the 'cool' Black guy who works in IT or Imran who is on their team but their friends, their closest contact, their families - all white.
    That is absolute rubbish. I lived in central London for 20 years and was as happy to call a racist a racist then as now.
    Mmmm, not sure you grasped my point. If you are wealthy, you don't have to worry about immigration.

    I've always thought it would be a great experiment to see if the burghers of Hampstead would be so tolerant of immigration if 30% of the housing stock was compulsory purchased and made into accommodation for refugee families.

    I'd put good money on the answer being no.
  • Options

    MJW said:

    Yes. The weirdest thing about the 'culture wars' is that the Tories seem to be repeating the mistakes of those they claim to oppose. There are some fair and reasonable criticisms of what gets called 'wokeness' - basically ultra progressive stances that won't brook dissent. But if you're constantly wanging on about it, lumping in any attitude to the left of Genghis Khan with it and deliberately doing stuff designed to 'own the libs' you look deeply weird and are as irritating if not more as those who hectored from the other side in the first place. I think paradoxically, you win culture wars by defusing them as makes the other side look like the mad extremists while the public, who largely want to get on with life in peace, side with those who seem more reasonable. Sunak's big asset was supposed to be pouring oil on troubled waters, but he's so weak at running his party has basically been led into inflaming matters by promoting or re-promoting some of the most gleefully obnoxious of his party's MPs.

    You saw it today, Rishi wading into a book being re-published: how wokeness is destroying the planet. FFS the NHS is on its knees and half the country is on strike. It is pathetic.

    If the next election gets rid of this rubbish I will be thankful. Trans people don't scare me, they don't impact my life whatsoever. Apparently I can't say anything anymore, I still say what I want and am not in jail yet. They are totally on another planet.
    I have to admit that I was earlier of the opinion "what a storm in a woke teacup", Augustus Gloop for example, is characterised by his over indulgence and as such he is f**. But later I learned the amendments were agreed between Puffin Books and the Dahl Estate and not the Great Socialist Conspiracy. Apparently raging anti-Semite as he was, Dahl was involved in his own PC related amendments during his lifetime. It's a funny old game Saint.
    He was - the Oompa-Loompas were once a lot more problematic. I think changing his text after his death is rather sinister though. Art is of its time. All art. Feel free to explain, but why change the art?
    Why is the PM involved though? What’s he got to do with it except point scoring.

    If the organisation that own the rights want to change it that is up to them. As it happens I don’t agree with changing the books but they’re a private organisation and they can do what they want. Won’t impact me at all, I will still buy the books in future.
    So you also agree with Sunak on this issue?
    No because I wouldn’t answer the question. I don’t think I can comment or tell a private company what to do, that is what I would say if I were PM
  • Options

    DougSeal said:

    MJW said:

    Yes. The weirdest thing about the 'culture wars' is that the Tories seem to be repeating the mistakes of those they claim to oppose. There are some fair and reasonable criticisms of what gets called 'wokeness' - basically ultra progressive stances that won't brook dissent. But if you're constantly wanging on about it, lumping in any attitude to the left of Genghis Khan with it and deliberately doing stuff designed to 'own the libs' you look deeply weird and are as irritating if not more as those who hectored from the other side in the first place. I think paradoxically, you win culture wars by defusing them as makes the other side look like the mad extremists while the public, who largely want to get on with life in peace, side with those who seem more reasonable. Sunak's big asset was supposed to be pouring oil on troubled waters, but he's so weak at running his party has basically been led into inflaming matters by promoting or re-promoting some of the most gleefully obnoxious of his party's MPs.

    You saw it today, Rishi wading into a book being re-published: how wokeness is destroying the planet. FFS the NHS is on its knees and half the country is on strike. It is pathetic.

    If the next election gets rid of this rubbish I will be thankful. Trans people don't scare me, they don't impact my life whatsoever. Apparently I can't say anything anymore, I still say what I want and am not in jail yet. They are totally on another planet.
    Maybe because what you want to say matches the prevailing ‘correct’ speech? Look at the fuss about Forbes today. She is entitled to her view about gay marriage. And yet people are decrying it. Certain views and expressions become the only accepted view. Take the phrase ‘coloured people’ vs ‘people of colour’. One of those is allowed, one isn’t. Who decides this shit? And when an older person gets it ‘wrong’ they are publicly castigated.
    I believe in politeness, treating people with respect and don’t be a dick. Too much of this is extreme wokeists being a dick. But then the right should try not to get sucked in quite so much.
    Same sort of thing with immigration.

    Go to most inner-city districts in Manchester for example and they have gone from mainly white 30 years ago to very non-white. The few white people left feel like they are swamped but, if they say that, they are racist.

    Yet if you go to the places where the people who call them racist live (Didsbury / West Didsbury, Hale, Cheadle etc to continue the Manchester vibe), they are so white you have to wear sunglasses. No mixed couples - all white. No mixed kids - all white.

    To people living in those districts, talk of being swamped makes no sense because they don't see in their home lives. Sure, they've got the 'cool' Black guy who works in IT or Imran who is on their team but their friends, their closest contact, their families - all white.
    That is absolute rubbish. I lived in central London for 20 years and was as happy to call a racist a racist then as now.
    Mmmm, not sure you grasped my point. If you are wealthy, you don't have to worry about immigration.

    I've always thought it would be a great experiment to see if the burghers of Hampstead would be so tolerant of immigration if 30% of the housing stock was compulsory purchased and made into accommodation for refugee families.

    I'd put good money on the answer being no.
    I work with immigrants. What are you on about?
  • Options
    CookieCookie Posts: 11,965
    DougSeal said:

    MJW said:

    Yes. The weirdest thing about the 'culture wars' is that the Tories seem to be repeating the mistakes of those they claim to oppose. There are some fair and reasonable criticisms of what gets called 'wokeness' - basically ultra progressive stances that won't brook dissent. But if you're constantly wanging on about it, lumping in any attitude to the left of Genghis Khan with it and deliberately doing stuff designed to 'own the libs' you look deeply weird and are as irritating if not more as those who hectored from the other side in the first place. I think paradoxically, you win culture wars by defusing them as makes the other side look like the mad extremists while the public, who largely want to get on with life in peace, side with those who seem more reasonable. Sunak's big asset was supposed to be pouring oil on troubled waters, but he's so weak at running his party has basically been led into inflaming matters by promoting or re-promoting some of the most gleefully obnoxious of his party's MPs.

    You saw it today, Rishi wading into a book being re-published: how wokeness is destroying the planet. FFS the NHS is on its knees and half the country is on strike. It is pathetic.

    If the next election gets rid of this rubbish I will be thankful. Trans people don't scare me, they don't impact my life whatsoever. Apparently I can't say anything anymore, I still say what I want and am not in jail yet. They are totally on another planet.
    Maybe because what you want to say matches the prevailing ‘correct’ speech? Look at the fuss about Forbes today. She is entitled to her view about gay marriage. And yet people are decrying it. Certain views and expressions become the only accepted view. Take the phrase ‘coloured people’ vs ‘people of colour’. One of those is allowed, one isn’t. Who decides this shit? And when an older person gets it ‘wrong’ they are publicly castigated.
    I believe in politeness, treating people with respect and don’t be a dick. Too much of this is extreme wokeists being a dick. But then the right should try not to get sucked in quite so much.
    Same sort of thing with immigration.

    Go to most inner-city districts in Manchester for example and they have gone from mainly white 30 years ago to very non-white. The few white people left feel like they are swamped but, if they say that, they are racist.

    Yet if you go to the places where the people who call them racist live (Didsbury / West Didsbury, Hale, Cheadle etc to continue the Manchester vibe), they are so white you have to wear sunglasses. No mixed couples - all white. No mixed kids - all white.

    To people living in those districts, talk of being swamped makes no sense because they don't see in their home lives. Sure, they've got the 'cool' Black guy who works in IT or Imran who is on their team but their friends, their closest contact, their families - all white.
    That is absolute rubbish. I lived in central London for 20 years and was as happy to call a racist a racist then as now.
    I don't see why that makes Kitchen Cabinet's post rubbish.
    I live just outside the M60 and know well very few non-white people. And most of those I do know are Hong Kong Chinese. Yet walk arounr Manchester City Centre and - well, I'd be exaggerating to say I feel lile I'm in a minority, but perhaps every third or fourth person you see is non-white.
    Sale remains pretty white - until you look at its schools. It certainly won't still be pretty white in 15 years' time.
  • Options
    Cookie said:

    DougSeal said:

    MJW said:

    Yes. The weirdest thing about the 'culture wars' is that the Tories seem to be repeating the mistakes of those they claim to oppose. There are some fair and reasonable criticisms of what gets called 'wokeness' - basically ultra progressive stances that won't brook dissent. But if you're constantly wanging on about it, lumping in any attitude to the left of Genghis Khan with it and deliberately doing stuff designed to 'own the libs' you look deeply weird and are as irritating if not more as those who hectored from the other side in the first place. I think paradoxically, you win culture wars by defusing them as makes the other side look like the mad extremists while the public, who largely want to get on with life in peace, side with those who seem more reasonable. Sunak's big asset was supposed to be pouring oil on troubled waters, but he's so weak at running his party has basically been led into inflaming matters by promoting or re-promoting some of the most gleefully obnoxious of his party's MPs.

    You saw it today, Rishi wading into a book being re-published: how wokeness is destroying the planet. FFS the NHS is on its knees and half the country is on strike. It is pathetic.

    If the next election gets rid of this rubbish I will be thankful. Trans people don't scare me, they don't impact my life whatsoever. Apparently I can't say anything anymore, I still say what I want and am not in jail yet. They are totally on another planet.
    Maybe because what you want to say matches the prevailing ‘correct’ speech? Look at the fuss about Forbes today. She is entitled to her view about gay marriage. And yet people are decrying it. Certain views and expressions become the only accepted view. Take the phrase ‘coloured people’ vs ‘people of colour’. One of those is allowed, one isn’t. Who decides this shit? And when an older person gets it ‘wrong’ they are publicly castigated.
    I believe in politeness, treating people with respect and don’t be a dick. Too much of this is extreme wokeists being a dick. But then the right should try not to get sucked in quite so much.
    Same sort of thing with immigration.

    Go to most inner-city districts in Manchester for example and they have gone from mainly white 30 years ago to very non-white. The few white people left feel like they are swamped but, if they say that, they are racist.

    Yet if you go to the places where the people who call them racist live (Didsbury / West Didsbury, Hale, Cheadle etc to continue the Manchester vibe), they are so white you have to wear sunglasses. No mixed couples - all white. No mixed kids - all white.

    To people living in those districts, talk of being swamped makes no sense because they don't see in their home lives. Sure, they've got the 'cool' Black guy who works in IT or Imran who is on their team but their friends, their closest contact, their families - all white.
    That is absolute rubbish. I lived in central London for 20 years and was as happy to call a racist a racist then as now.
    I don't see why that makes Kitchen Cabinet's post rubbish.
    I live just outside the M60 and know well very few non-white people. And most of those I do know are Hong Kong Chinese. Yet walk arounr Manchester City Centre and - well, I'd be exaggerating to say I feel lile I'm in a minority, but perhaps every third or fourth person you see is non-white.
    Sale remains pretty white - until you look at its schools. It certainly won't still be pretty white in 15 years' time.
    You feel like a minority, even though you aren’t. But so what?
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 46,007

    MJW said:

    Yes. The weirdest thing about the 'culture wars' is that the Tories seem to be repeating the mistakes of those they claim to oppose. There are some fair and reasonable criticisms of what gets called 'wokeness' - basically ultra progressive stances that won't brook dissent. But if you're constantly wanging on about it, lumping in any attitude to the left of Genghis Khan with it and deliberately doing stuff designed to 'own the libs' you look deeply weird and are as irritating if not more as those who hectored from the other side in the first place. I think paradoxically, you win culture wars by defusing them as makes the other side look like the mad extremists while the public, who largely want to get on with life in peace, side with those who seem more reasonable. Sunak's big asset was supposed to be pouring oil on troubled waters, but he's so weak at running his party has basically been led into inflaming matters by promoting or re-promoting some of the most gleefully obnoxious of his party's MPs.

    You saw it today, Rishi wading into a book being re-published: how wokeness is destroying the planet. FFS the NHS is on its knees and half the country is on strike. It is pathetic.

    If the next election gets rid of this rubbish I will be thankful. Trans people don't scare me, they don't impact my life whatsoever. Apparently I can't say anything anymore, I still say what I want and am not in jail yet. They are totally on another planet.
    Maybe because what you want to say matches the prevailing ‘correct’ speech? Look at the fuss about Forbes today. She is entitled to her view about gay marriage. And yet people are decrying it. Certain views and expressions become the only accepted view. Take the phrase ‘coloured people’ vs ‘people of colour’. One of those is allowed, one isn’t. Who decides this shit? And when an older person gets it ‘wrong’ they are publicly castigated.
    I believe in politeness, treating people with respect and don’t be a dick. Too much of this is extreme wokeists being a dick. But then the right should try not to get sucked in quite so much.
    Same sort of thing with immigration.

    Go to most inner-city districts in Manchester for example and they have gone from mainly white 30 years ago to very non-white. The few white people left feel like they are swamped but, if they say that, they are racist.

    Yet if you go to the places where the people who call them racist live (Didsbury / West Didsbury, Hale, Cheadle etc to continue the Manchester vibe), they are so white you have to wear sunglasses. No mixed couples - all white. No mixed kids - all white.

    To people living in those districts, talk of being swamped makes no sense because they don't see in their home lives. Sure, they've got the 'cool' Black guy who works in IT or Imran who is on their team but their friends, their closest contact, their families - all white.
    Not my experience tbh. Worked in Halifax - very little racism evident; lived in a village near Selby - quite a lot of casual racism, sadly.

    The former was very racially diverse, the latter very white.

    My guess at why? Fear of the different.
    Not my experience either. Since I left home aged 18 to London, them Austalia and NZ, then to the Midlands I have always lived in multicultural places.

    Being middle class makes a difference. It is fairly easy to rub along with people with the same values and aspirations, wherever their family originates.
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    MJW said:

    Yes. The weirdest thing about the 'culture wars' is that the Tories seem to be repeating the mistakes of those they claim to oppose. There are some fair and reasonable criticisms of what gets called 'wokeness' - basically ultra progressive stances that won't brook dissent. But if you're constantly wanging on about it, lumping in any attitude to the left of Genghis Khan with it and deliberately doing stuff designed to 'own the libs' you look deeply weird and are as irritating if not more as those who hectored from the other side in the first place. I think paradoxically, you win culture wars by defusing them as makes the other side look like the mad extremists while the public, who largely want to get on with life in peace, side with those who seem more reasonable. Sunak's big asset was supposed to be pouring oil on troubled waters, but he's so weak at running his party has basically been led into inflaming matters by promoting or re-promoting some of the most gleefully obnoxious of his party's MPs.

    You saw it today, Rishi wading into a book being re-published: how wokeness is destroying the planet. FFS the NHS is on its knees and half the country is on strike. It is pathetic.

    If the next election gets rid of this rubbish I will be thankful. Trans people don't scare me, they don't impact my life whatsoever. Apparently I can't say anything anymore, I still say what I want and am not in jail yet. They are totally on another planet.
    Maybe because what you want to say matches the prevailing ‘correct’ speech? Look at the fuss about Forbes today. She is entitled to her view about gay marriage. And yet people are decrying it. Certain views and expressions become the only accepted view. Take the phrase ‘coloured people’ vs ‘people of colour’. One of those is allowed, one isn’t. Who decides this shit? And when an older person gets it ‘wrong’ they are publicly castigated.
    I believe in politeness, treating people with respect and don’t be a dick. Too much of this is extreme wokeists being a dick. But then the right should try not to get sucked in quite so much.
    Same sort of thing with immigration.

    Go to most inner-city districts in Manchester for example and they have gone from mainly white 30 years ago to very non-white. The few white people left feel like they are swamped but, if they say that, they are racist.

    Yet if you go to the places where the people who call them racist live (Didsbury / West Didsbury, Hale, Cheadle etc to continue the Manchester vibe), they are so white you have to wear sunglasses. No mixed couples - all white. No mixed kids - all white.

    To people living in those districts, talk of being swamped makes no sense because they don't see in their home lives. Sure, they've got the 'cool' Black guy who works in IT or Imran who is on their team but their friends, their closest contact, their families - all white.
    Not my experience tbh. Worked in Halifax - very little racism evident; lived in a village near Selby - quite a lot of casual racism, sadly.

    The former was very racially diverse, the latter very white.
    Without having direct knowledge of those places, I would imagine the village was very white but also very working class.

    The places I'm talking about in Manchester are very white but also very graduate professional and wealthy enclaves. They don't see immigration as a problem because, quite frankly, they don't encounter that many in their areas (and those they do are similarly wealthy and educated, not having come from Somalia in the past 12 months).
    Okay but in London it’s all sorts of people and I don’t see much racism around from people. Perhaps because other people aren’t actually very scary?
    I think that is part of the answer. People look at this (and @Dougseal had the same response) and say "but look at London!". London has always been different for many reasons - rich and poor typically lived a lot closer than many provincial cities, the cost of housing meant people had to seek bargains etc.

    Go outside that london-centric view and you get a different picture. Some of the segregation you get in the cities is on a scale I've only seen in the likes of Paris.
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    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 34,497
    ...
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    FF43FF43 Posts: 16,116
    Rishi Sunak might prefer not to rely on Labour support for his deal with the EU for Northern Ireland. Nevertheless I feel a deal with Labour support is more to his advantage than no deal.
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    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 41,074
    Scott_xP said:

    ...

    Carob surely ...
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    Cookie said:

    DougSeal said:

    MJW said:

    Yes. The weirdest thing about the 'culture wars' is that the Tories seem to be repeating the mistakes of those they claim to oppose. There are some fair and reasonable criticisms of what gets called 'wokeness' - basically ultra progressive stances that won't brook dissent. But if you're constantly wanging on about it, lumping in any attitude to the left of Genghis Khan with it and deliberately doing stuff designed to 'own the libs' you look deeply weird and are as irritating if not more as those who hectored from the other side in the first place. I think paradoxically, you win culture wars by defusing them as makes the other side look like the mad extremists while the public, who largely want to get on with life in peace, side with those who seem more reasonable. Sunak's big asset was supposed to be pouring oil on troubled waters, but he's so weak at running his party has basically been led into inflaming matters by promoting or re-promoting some of the most gleefully obnoxious of his party's MPs.

    You saw it today, Rishi wading into a book being re-published: how wokeness is destroying the planet. FFS the NHS is on its knees and half the country is on strike. It is pathetic.

    If the next election gets rid of this rubbish I will be thankful. Trans people don't scare me, they don't impact my life whatsoever. Apparently I can't say anything anymore, I still say what I want and am not in jail yet. They are totally on another planet.
    Maybe because what you want to say matches the prevailing ‘correct’ speech? Look at the fuss about Forbes today. She is entitled to her view about gay marriage. And yet people are decrying it. Certain views and expressions become the only accepted view. Take the phrase ‘coloured people’ vs ‘people of colour’. One of those is allowed, one isn’t. Who decides this shit? And when an older person gets it ‘wrong’ they are publicly castigated.
    I believe in politeness, treating people with respect and don’t be a dick. Too much of this is extreme wokeists being a dick. But then the right should try not to get sucked in quite so much.
    Same sort of thing with immigration.

    Go to most inner-city districts in Manchester for example and they have gone from mainly white 30 years ago to very non-white. The few white people left feel like they are swamped but, if they say that, they are racist.

    Yet if you go to the places where the people who call them racist live (Didsbury / West Didsbury, Hale, Cheadle etc to continue the Manchester vibe), they are so white you have to wear sunglasses. No mixed couples - all white. No mixed kids - all white.

    To people living in those districts, talk of being swamped makes no sense because they don't see in their home lives. Sure, they've got the 'cool' Black guy who works in IT or Imran who is on their team but their friends, their closest contact, their families - all white.
    That is absolute rubbish. I lived in central London for 20 years and was as happy to call a racist a racist then as now.
    I don't see why that makes Kitchen Cabinet's post rubbish.
    I live just outside the M60 and know well very few non-white people. And most of those I do know are Hong Kong Chinese. Yet walk arounr Manchester City Centre and - well, I'd be exaggerating to say I feel lile I'm in a minority, but perhaps every third or fourth person you see is non-white.
    Sale remains pretty white - until you look at its schools. It certainly won't still be pretty white in 15 years' time.
    You feel like a minority, even though you aren’t. But so what?
    That's a different point entirely.
  • Options

    MJW said:

    Yes. The weirdest thing about the 'culture wars' is that the Tories seem to be repeating the mistakes of those they claim to oppose. There are some fair and reasonable criticisms of what gets called 'wokeness' - basically ultra progressive stances that won't brook dissent. But if you're constantly wanging on about it, lumping in any attitude to the left of Genghis Khan with it and deliberately doing stuff designed to 'own the libs' you look deeply weird and are as irritating if not more as those who hectored from the other side in the first place. I think paradoxically, you win culture wars by defusing them as makes the other side look like the mad extremists while the public, who largely want to get on with life in peace, side with those who seem more reasonable. Sunak's big asset was supposed to be pouring oil on troubled waters, but he's so weak at running his party has basically been led into inflaming matters by promoting or re-promoting some of the most gleefully obnoxious of his party's MPs.

    You saw it today, Rishi wading into a book being re-published: how wokeness is destroying the planet. FFS the NHS is on its knees and half the country is on strike. It is pathetic.

    If the next election gets rid of this rubbish I will be thankful. Trans people don't scare me, they don't impact my life whatsoever. Apparently I can't say anything anymore, I still say what I want and am not in jail yet. They are totally on another planet.
    Maybe because what you want to say matches the prevailing ‘correct’ speech? Look at the fuss about Forbes today. She is entitled to her view about gay marriage. And yet people are decrying it. Certain views and expressions become the only accepted view. Take the phrase ‘coloured people’ vs ‘people of colour’. One of those is allowed, one isn’t. Who decides this shit? And when an older person gets it ‘wrong’ they are publicly castigated.
    I believe in politeness, treating people with respect and don’t be a dick. Too much of this is extreme wokeists being a dick. But then the right should try not to get sucked in quite so much.
    Same sort of thing with immigration.

    Go to most inner-city districts in Manchester for example and they have gone from mainly white 30 years ago to very non-white. The few white people left feel like they are swamped but, if they say that, they are racist.

    Yet if you go to the places where the people who call them racist live (Didsbury / West Didsbury, Hale, Cheadle etc to continue the Manchester vibe), they are so white you have to wear sunglasses. No mixed couples - all white. No mixed kids - all white.

    To people living in those districts, talk of being swamped makes no sense because they don't see in their home lives. Sure, they've got the 'cool' Black guy who works in IT or Imran who is on their team but their friends, their closest contact, their families - all white.
    Not my experience tbh. Worked in Halifax - very little racism evident; lived in a village near Selby - quite a lot of casual racism, sadly.

    The former was very racially diverse, the latter very white.
    Without having direct knowledge of those places, I would imagine the village was very white but also very working class.

    The places I'm talking about in Manchester are very white but also very graduate professional and wealthy enclaves. They don't see immigration as a problem because, quite frankly, they don't encounter that many in their areas (and those they do are similarly wealthy and educated, not having come from Somalia in the past 12 months).
    Okay but in London it’s all sorts of people and I don’t see much racism around from people. Perhaps because other people aren’t actually very scary?
    I think that is part of the answer. People look at this (and @Dougseal had the same response) and say "but look at London!". London has always been different for many reasons - rich and poor typically lived a lot closer than many provincial cities, the cost of housing meant people had to seek bargains etc.

    Go outside that london-centric view and you get a different picture. Some of the segregation you get in the cities is on a scale I've only seen in the likes of Paris.
    I’m not saying it doesn’t happen. I’m just saying that I think the solution is to do what is done in London, not vilify certain people
  • Options
    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 21,251

    Back in my old West London Manor. Ealing Broadway station has certainly been spruced up since I was last here.

    What used to be Fat Boys Thai restaurant has become a branch of Rosa's. Hopefully the food is just as good. I shall find out soon. We used to eat here all the time. Here and the Clay Oven Indian restaurant which is now sadly shut down and boarded up.

    Tomorrow I get to sample Crossrail for the first time.

    Oh, and on topic: LOL.

    Month’s is still going though. And Crossrail is fab. I’m about to leave the area after over 13 years - heading to the Docklands.
    It is just under 13 years since I left and returned north.

    I remember there used to be a bit of a tussle between two different places both called Monty's.
  • Options

    DougSeal said:

    MJW said:

    Yes. The weirdest thing about the 'culture wars' is that the Tories seem to be repeating the mistakes of those they claim to oppose. There are some fair and reasonable criticisms of what gets called 'wokeness' - basically ultra progressive stances that won't brook dissent. But if you're constantly wanging on about it, lumping in any attitude to the left of Genghis Khan with it and deliberately doing stuff designed to 'own the libs' you look deeply weird and are as irritating if not more as those who hectored from the other side in the first place. I think paradoxically, you win culture wars by defusing them as makes the other side look like the mad extremists while the public, who largely want to get on with life in peace, side with those who seem more reasonable. Sunak's big asset was supposed to be pouring oil on troubled waters, but he's so weak at running his party has basically been led into inflaming matters by promoting or re-promoting some of the most gleefully obnoxious of his party's MPs.

    You saw it today, Rishi wading into a book being re-published: how wokeness is destroying the planet. FFS the NHS is on its knees and half the country is on strike. It is pathetic.

    If the next election gets rid of this rubbish I will be thankful. Trans people don't scare me, they don't impact my life whatsoever. Apparently I can't say anything anymore, I still say what I want and am not in jail yet. They are totally on another planet.
    Maybe because what you want to say matches the prevailing ‘correct’ speech? Look at the fuss about Forbes today. She is entitled to her view about gay marriage. And yet people are decrying it. Certain views and expressions become the only accepted view. Take the phrase ‘coloured people’ vs ‘people of colour’. One of those is allowed, one isn’t. Who decides this shit? And when an older person gets it ‘wrong’ they are publicly castigated.
    I believe in politeness, treating people with respect and don’t be a dick. Too much of this is extreme wokeists being a dick. But then the right should try not to get sucked in quite so much.
    Same sort of thing with immigration.

    Go to most inner-city districts in Manchester for example and they have gone from mainly white 30 years ago to very non-white. The few white people left feel like they are swamped but, if they say that, they are racist.

    Yet if you go to the places where the people who call them racist live (Didsbury / West Didsbury, Hale, Cheadle etc to continue the Manchester vibe), they are so white you have to wear sunglasses. No mixed couples - all white. No mixed kids - all white.

    To people living in those districts, talk of being swamped makes no sense because they don't see in their home lives. Sure, they've got the 'cool' Black guy who works in IT or Imran who is on their team but their friends, their closest contact, their families - all white.
    That is absolute rubbish. I lived in central London for 20 years and was as happy to call a racist a racist then as now.
    Mmmm, not sure you grasped my point. If you are wealthy, you don't have to worry about immigration.

    I've always thought it would be a great experiment to see if the burghers of Hampstead would be so tolerant of immigration if 30% of the housing stock was compulsory purchased and made into accommodation for refugee families.

    I'd put good money on the answer being no.
    I work with immigrants. What are you on about?
    So do I and married one - and one who is non-white. What's your point?
  • Options
    pm215pm215 Posts: 995

    Surely it was a commercial decision at the end of the day. That’s what all these companies care about. Barclays Bank aren’t going woke because they want to brainwash the youth it’s that they see a commercial advantage in being progressive.

    Yeah, this struck me as corporate nonsense rather than politically driven. I suspect there are a few cases of updating language in childrens' books that I'd agree with, but this one definitely feels like a line drawn in the wrong place to me. Won't be either the first or last time somebody at a company made a silly decision that blew up in their faces...
  • Options
    CookieCookie Posts: 11,965

    Cookie said:

    DougSeal said:

    MJW said:

    Yes. The weirdest thing about the 'culture wars' is that the Tories seem to be repeating the mistakes of those they claim to oppose. There are some fair and reasonable criticisms of what gets called 'wokeness' - basically ultra progressive stances that won't brook dissent. But if you're constantly wanging on about it, lumping in any attitude to the left of Genghis Khan with it and deliberately doing stuff designed to 'own the libs' you look deeply weird and are as irritating if not more as those who hectored from the other side in the first place. I think paradoxically, you win culture wars by defusing them as makes the other side look like the mad extremists while the public, who largely want to get on with life in peace, side with those who seem more reasonable. Sunak's big asset was supposed to be pouring oil on troubled waters, but he's so weak at running his party has basically been led into inflaming matters by promoting or re-promoting some of the most gleefully obnoxious of his party's MPs.

    You saw it today, Rishi wading into a book being re-published: how wokeness is destroying the planet. FFS the NHS is on its knees and half the country is on strike. It is pathetic.

    If the next election gets rid of this rubbish I will be thankful. Trans people don't scare me, they don't impact my life whatsoever. Apparently I can't say anything anymore, I still say what I want and am not in jail yet. They are totally on another planet.
    Maybe because what you want to say matches the prevailing ‘correct’ speech? Look at the fuss about Forbes today. She is entitled to her view about gay marriage. And yet people are decrying it. Certain views and expressions become the only accepted view. Take the phrase ‘coloured people’ vs ‘people of colour’. One of those is allowed, one isn’t. Who decides this shit? And when an older person gets it ‘wrong’ they are publicly castigated.
    I believe in politeness, treating people with respect and don’t be a dick. Too much of this is extreme wokeists being a dick. But then the right should try not to get sucked in quite so much.
    Same sort of thing with immigration.

    Go to most inner-city districts in Manchester for example and they have gone from mainly white 30 years ago to very non-white. The few white people left feel like they are swamped but, if they say that, they are racist.

    Yet if you go to the places where the people who call them racist live (Didsbury / West Didsbury, Hale, Cheadle etc to continue the Manchester vibe), they are so white you have to wear sunglasses. No mixed couples - all white. No mixed kids - all white.

    To people living in those districts, talk of being swamped makes no sense because they don't see in their home lives. Sure, they've got the 'cool' Black guy who works in IT or Imran who is on their team but their friends, their closest contact, their families - all white.
    That is absolute rubbish. I lived in central London for 20 years and was as happy to call a racist a racist then as now.
    I don't see why that makes Kitchen Cabinet's post rubbish.
    I live just outside the M60 and know well very few non-white people. And most of those I do know are Hong Kong Chinese. Yet walk arounr Manchester City Centre and - well, I'd be exaggerating to say I feel lile I'm in a minority, but perhaps every third or fourth person you see is non-white.
    Sale remains pretty white - until you look at its schools. It certainly won't still be pretty white in 15 years' time.
    You feel like a minority, even though you aren’t. But so what?
    I said I'd be exaggerating if I felt like I'm in a minority.
    My point was that GM's middle class suburbs are still very white, as KC said.
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 33,148

    MJW said:

    Yes. The weirdest thing about the 'culture wars' is that the Tories seem to be repeating the mistakes of those they claim to oppose. There are some fair and reasonable criticisms of what gets called 'wokeness' - basically ultra progressive stances that won't brook dissent. But if you're constantly wanging on about it, lumping in any attitude to the left of Genghis Khan with it and deliberately doing stuff designed to 'own the libs' you look deeply weird and are as irritating if not more as those who hectored from the other side in the first place. I think paradoxically, you win culture wars by defusing them as makes the other side look like the mad extremists while the public, who largely want to get on with life in peace, side with those who seem more reasonable. Sunak's big asset was supposed to be pouring oil on troubled waters, but he's so weak at running his party has basically been led into inflaming matters by promoting or re-promoting some of the most gleefully obnoxious of his party's MPs.

    You saw it today, Rishi wading into a book being re-published: how wokeness is destroying the planet. FFS the NHS is on its knees and half the country is on strike. It is pathetic.

    If the next election gets rid of this rubbish I will be thankful. Trans people don't scare me, they don't impact my life whatsoever. Apparently I can't say anything anymore, I still say what I want and am not in jail yet. They are totally on another planet.
    Maybe because what you want to say matches the prevailing ‘correct’ speech? Look at the fuss about Forbes today. She is entitled to her view about gay marriage. And yet people are decrying it. Certain views and expressions become the only accepted view. Take the phrase ‘coloured people’ vs ‘people of colour’. One of those is allowed, one isn’t. Who decides this shit? And when an older person gets it ‘wrong’ they are publicly castigated.
    I believe in politeness, treating people with respect and don’t be a dick. Too much of this is extreme wokeists being a dick. But then the right should try not to get sucked in quite so much.
    Same sort of thing with immigration.

    Go to most inner-city districts in Manchester for example and they have gone from mainly white 30 years ago to very non-white. The few white people left feel like they are swamped but, if they say that, they are racist.

    Yet if you go to the places where the people who call them racist live (Didsbury / West Didsbury, Hale, Cheadle etc to continue the Manchester vibe), they are so white you have to wear sunglasses. No mixed couples - all white. No mixed kids - all white.

    To people living in those districts, talk of being swamped makes no sense because they don't see in their home lives. Sure, they've got the 'cool' Black guy who works in IT or Imran who is on their team but their friends, their closest contact, their families - all white.
    Not my experience tbh. Worked in Halifax - very little racism evident; lived in a village near Selby - quite a lot of casual racism, sadly.

    The former was very racially diverse, the latter very white.
    Without having direct knowledge of those places, I would imagine the village was very white but also very working class.

    The places I'm talking about in Manchester are very white but also very graduate professional and wealthy enclaves. They don't see immigration as a problem because, quite frankly, they don't encounter that many in their areas (and those they do are similarly wealthy and educated, not having come from Somalia in the past 12 months).
    In my experience the racism was worse in the places that had no experience of immigration, they just feared it.

    In multicultural Halifax otoh everyone knew, worked with, were neighbours to, had kids at the same school as, people from other cultures. People were seen as people first and foremost, good bad and indifferent but not defined by their ethnicity.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 46,007

    MJW said:

    Yes. The weirdest thing about the 'culture wars' is that the Tories seem to be repeating the mistakes of those they claim to oppose. There are some fair and reasonable criticisms of what gets called 'wokeness' - basically ultra progressive stances that won't brook dissent. But if you're constantly wanging on about it, lumping in any attitude to the left of Genghis Khan with it and deliberately doing stuff designed to 'own the libs' you look deeply weird and are as irritating if not more as those who hectored from the other side in the first place. I think paradoxically, you win culture wars by defusing them as makes the other side look like the mad extremists while the public, who largely want to get on with life in peace, side with those who seem more reasonable. Sunak's big asset was supposed to be pouring oil on troubled waters, but he's so weak at running his party has basically been led into inflaming matters by promoting or re-promoting some of the most gleefully obnoxious of his party's MPs.

    You saw it today, Rishi wading into a book being re-published: how wokeness is destroying the planet. FFS the NHS is on its knees and half the country is on strike. It is pathetic.

    If the next election gets rid of this rubbish I will be thankful. Trans people don't scare me, they don't impact my life whatsoever. Apparently I can't say anything anymore, I still say what I want and am not in jail yet. They are totally on another planet.
    I have to admit that I was earlier of the opinion "what a storm in a woke teacup", Augustus Gloop for example, is characterised by his over indulgence and as such he is f**. But later I learned the amendments were agreed between Puffin Books and the Dahl Estate and not the Great Socialist Conspiracy. Apparently raging anti-Semite as he was, Dahl was involved in his own PC related amendments during his lifetime. It's a funny old game Saint.
    Many book publishers will refuse to publish books seen as 'controversial' (which are always right-wing or which are viewed to express non-progressive views), in part because their junior staff refuse to be associated with it and / or the senior publishers don't get the backlash.

    JK Rowling only gets away with it because Bloomsbury's share price would be down 25% in the morning if they stopped their deal with her and the management team would be kicked out by investors. Which just goes to show how principles can easily be trumped by good old money .
    Wait. JK Rowling's books a right-wing??!
    This is just some vague attempt to smash the libs because of the trans stuff.

    FFS she was a massive Blair fan. The books were at one point called left wing wank material
    I gave up on HP after book 4 as they were so in need of a decent editor and far too bloated.

    I never thought them particularly leftwing. Or right wing for that matter, apart from being set in a boarding school. That though is quite a useful plot gambit to get children in a gang away from their parents, and hence adventure, rather than an endorsement of an archaic educational establishment.
  • Options

    MJW said:

    Yes. The weirdest thing about the 'culture wars' is that the Tories seem to be repeating the mistakes of those they claim to oppose. There are some fair and reasonable criticisms of what gets called 'wokeness' - basically ultra progressive stances that won't brook dissent. But if you're constantly wanging on about it, lumping in any attitude to the left of Genghis Khan with it and deliberately doing stuff designed to 'own the libs' you look deeply weird and are as irritating if not more as those who hectored from the other side in the first place. I think paradoxically, you win culture wars by defusing them as makes the other side look like the mad extremists while the public, who largely want to get on with life in peace, side with those who seem more reasonable. Sunak's big asset was supposed to be pouring oil on troubled waters, but he's so weak at running his party has basically been led into inflaming matters by promoting or re-promoting some of the most gleefully obnoxious of his party's MPs.

    You saw it today, Rishi wading into a book being re-published: how wokeness is destroying the planet. FFS the NHS is on its knees and half the country is on strike. It is pathetic.

    If the next election gets rid of this rubbish I will be thankful. Trans people don't scare me, they don't impact my life whatsoever. Apparently I can't say anything anymore, I still say what I want and am not in jail yet. They are totally on another planet.
    Maybe because what you want to say matches the prevailing ‘correct’ speech? Look at the fuss about Forbes today. She is entitled to her view about gay marriage. And yet people are decrying it. Certain views and expressions become the only accepted view. Take the phrase ‘coloured people’ vs ‘people of colour’. One of those is allowed, one isn’t. Who decides this shit? And when an older person gets it ‘wrong’ they are publicly castigated.
    I believe in politeness, treating people with respect and don’t be a dick. Too much of this is extreme wokeists being a dick. But then the right should try not to get sucked in quite so much.
    Same sort of thing with immigration.

    Go to most inner-city districts in Manchester for example and they have gone from mainly white 30 years ago to very non-white. The few white people left feel like they are swamped but, if they say that, they are racist.

    Yet if you go to the places where the people who call them racist live (Didsbury / West Didsbury, Hale, Cheadle etc to continue the Manchester vibe), they are so white you have to wear sunglasses. No mixed couples - all white. No mixed kids - all white.

    To people living in those districts, talk of being swamped makes no sense because they don't see in their home lives. Sure, they've got the 'cool' Black guy who works in IT or Imran who is on their team but their friends, their closest contact, their families - all white.
    Not my experience tbh. Worked in Halifax - very little racism evident; lived in a village near Selby - quite a lot of casual racism, sadly.

    The former was very racially diverse, the latter very white.
    Without having direct knowledge of those places, I would imagine the village was very white but also very working class.

    The places I'm talking about in Manchester are very white but also very graduate professional and wealthy enclaves. They don't see immigration as a problem because, quite frankly, they don't encounter that many in their areas (and those they do are similarly wealthy and educated, not having come from Somalia in the past 12 months).
    Okay but in London it’s all sorts of people and I don’t see much racism around from people. Perhaps because other people aren’t actually very scary?
    I think that is part of the answer. People look at this (and @Dougseal had the same response) and say "but look at London!". London has always been different for many reasons - rich and poor typically lived a lot closer than many provincial cities, the cost of housing meant people had to seek bargains etc.

    Go outside that london-centric view and you get a different picture. Some of the segregation you get in the cities is on a scale I've only seen in the likes of Paris.
    I’m not saying it doesn’t happen. I’m just saying that I think the solution is to do what is done in London, not vilify certain people
    The only people who are getting vilified in those areas are the ones who feel they are being overwhelmed. They don't go round with torches and pitchforks you know.

    It would be great if some of the posters on here got their heads out of their London arses and saw what's going on in the rest of the country. There's a reason why Labour lost the Red Wall - mainly to do with the fact that its leaders found it difficult to get out of Zones 1 + 2
  • Options
    Cookie said:

    Cookie said:

    DougSeal said:

    MJW said:

    Yes. The weirdest thing about the 'culture wars' is that the Tories seem to be repeating the mistakes of those they claim to oppose. There are some fair and reasonable criticisms of what gets called 'wokeness' - basically ultra progressive stances that won't brook dissent. But if you're constantly wanging on about it, lumping in any attitude to the left of Genghis Khan with it and deliberately doing stuff designed to 'own the libs' you look deeply weird and are as irritating if not more as those who hectored from the other side in the first place. I think paradoxically, you win culture wars by defusing them as makes the other side look like the mad extremists while the public, who largely want to get on with life in peace, side with those who seem more reasonable. Sunak's big asset was supposed to be pouring oil on troubled waters, but he's so weak at running his party has basically been led into inflaming matters by promoting or re-promoting some of the most gleefully obnoxious of his party's MPs.

    You saw it today, Rishi wading into a book being re-published: how wokeness is destroying the planet. FFS the NHS is on its knees and half the country is on strike. It is pathetic.

    If the next election gets rid of this rubbish I will be thankful. Trans people don't scare me, they don't impact my life whatsoever. Apparently I can't say anything anymore, I still say what I want and am not in jail yet. They are totally on another planet.
    Maybe because what you want to say matches the prevailing ‘correct’ speech? Look at the fuss about Forbes today. She is entitled to her view about gay marriage. And yet people are decrying it. Certain views and expressions become the only accepted view. Take the phrase ‘coloured people’ vs ‘people of colour’. One of those is allowed, one isn’t. Who decides this shit? And when an older person gets it ‘wrong’ they are publicly castigated.
    I believe in politeness, treating people with respect and don’t be a dick. Too much of this is extreme wokeists being a dick. But then the right should try not to get sucked in quite so much.
    Same sort of thing with immigration.

    Go to most inner-city districts in Manchester for example and they have gone from mainly white 30 years ago to very non-white. The few white people left feel like they are swamped but, if they say that, they are racist.

    Yet if you go to the places where the people who call them racist live (Didsbury / West Didsbury, Hale, Cheadle etc to continue the Manchester vibe), they are so white you have to wear sunglasses. No mixed couples - all white. No mixed kids - all white.

    To people living in those districts, talk of being swamped makes no sense because they don't see in their home lives. Sure, they've got the 'cool' Black guy who works in IT or Imran who is on their team but their friends, their closest contact, their families - all white.
    That is absolute rubbish. I lived in central London for 20 years and was as happy to call a racist a racist then as now.
    I don't see why that makes Kitchen Cabinet's post rubbish.
    I live just outside the M60 and know well very few non-white people. And most of those I do know are Hong Kong Chinese. Yet walk arounr Manchester City Centre and - well, I'd be exaggerating to say I feel lile I'm in a minority, but perhaps every third or fourth person you see is non-white.
    Sale remains pretty white - until you look at its schools. It certainly won't still be pretty white in 15 years' time.
    You feel like a minority, even though you aren’t. But so what?
    I said I'd be exaggerating if I felt like I'm in a minority.
    My point was that GM's middle class suburbs are still very white, as KC said.
    Okay but that doesn’t mean we should fear immigrants as many people are told to do.
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 33,148
    Scott_xP said:

    @BrianSpanner1: Bloody hell.
    He was in the Parliament building.
    Well played Team Forbes.
    https://twitter.com/BrianSpanner1/status/1627782499232350209/photo/1

    Somebody will have to explain the significance of that one to me.
  • Options
    CookieCookie Posts: 11,965

    DougSeal said:

    MJW said:

    Yes. The weirdest thing about the 'culture wars' is that the Tories seem to be repeating the mistakes of those they claim to oppose. There are some fair and reasonable criticisms of what gets called 'wokeness' - basically ultra progressive stances that won't brook dissent. But if you're constantly wanging on about it, lumping in any attitude to the left of Genghis Khan with it and deliberately doing stuff designed to 'own the libs' you look deeply weird and are as irritating if not more as those who hectored from the other side in the first place. I think paradoxically, you win culture wars by defusing them as makes the other side look like the mad extremists while the public, who largely want to get on with life in peace, side with those who seem more reasonable. Sunak's big asset was supposed to be pouring oil on troubled waters, but he's so weak at running his party has basically been led into inflaming matters by promoting or re-promoting some of the most gleefully obnoxious of his party's MPs.

    You saw it today, Rishi wading into a book being re-published: how wokeness is destroying the planet. FFS the NHS is on its knees and half the country is on strike. It is pathetic.

    If the next election gets rid of this rubbish I will be thankful. Trans people don't scare me, they don't impact my life whatsoever. Apparently I can't say anything anymore, I still say what I want and am not in jail yet. They are totally on another planet.
    Maybe because what you want to say matches the prevailing ‘correct’ speech? Look at the fuss about Forbes today. She is entitled to her view about gay marriage. And yet people are decrying it. Certain views and expressions become the only accepted view. Take the phrase ‘coloured people’ vs ‘people of colour’. One of those is allowed, one isn’t. Who decides this shit? And when an older person gets it ‘wrong’ they are publicly castigated.
    I believe in politeness, treating people with respect and don’t be a dick. Too much of this is extreme wokeists being a dick. But then the right should try not to get sucked in quite so much.
    Same sort of thing with immigration.

    Go to most inner-city districts in Manchester for example and they have gone from mainly white 30 years ago to very non-white. The few white people left feel like they are swamped but, if they say that, they are racist.

    Yet if you go to the places where the people who call them racist live (Didsbury / West Didsbury, Hale, Cheadle etc to continue the Manchester vibe), they are so white you have to wear sunglasses. No mixed couples - all white. No mixed kids - all white.

    To people living in those districts, talk of being swamped makes no sense because they don't see in their home lives. Sure, they've got the 'cool' Black guy who works in IT or Imran who is on their team but their friends, their closest contact, their families - all white.
    That is absolute rubbish. I lived in central London for 20 years and was as happy to call a racist a racist then as now.
    Mmmm, not sure you grasped my point. If you are wealthy, you don't have to worry about immigration.

    I've always thought it would be a great experiment to see if the burghers of Hampstead would be so tolerant of immigration if 30% of the housing stock was compulsory purchased and made into accommodation for refugee families.

    I'd put good money on the answer being no.
    I work with immigrants. What are you on about?
    Well, that immigration disproportionately impacts poor areas and that urban liberals im rich enclaves may feel differently if their own areas were more impacted.
  • Options
    TresTres Posts: 2,349

    DougSeal said:

    MJW said:

    Yes. The weirdest thing about the 'culture wars' is that the Tories seem to be repeating the mistakes of those they claim to oppose. There are some fair and reasonable criticisms of what gets called 'wokeness' - basically ultra progressive stances that won't brook dissent. But if you're constantly wanging on about it, lumping in any attitude to the left of Genghis Khan with it and deliberately doing stuff designed to 'own the libs' you look deeply weird and are as irritating if not more as those who hectored from the other side in the first place. I think paradoxically, you win culture wars by defusing them as makes the other side look like the mad extremists while the public, who largely want to get on with life in peace, side with those who seem more reasonable. Sunak's big asset was supposed to be pouring oil on troubled waters, but he's so weak at running his party has basically been led into inflaming matters by promoting or re-promoting some of the most gleefully obnoxious of his party's MPs.

    You saw it today, Rishi wading into a book being re-published: how wokeness is destroying the planet. FFS the NHS is on its knees and half the country is on strike. It is pathetic.

    If the next election gets rid of this rubbish I will be thankful. Trans people don't scare me, they don't impact my life whatsoever. Apparently I can't say anything anymore, I still say what I want and am not in jail yet. They are totally on another planet.
    Maybe because what you want to say matches the prevailing ‘correct’ speech? Look at the fuss about Forbes today. She is entitled to her view about gay marriage. And yet people are decrying it. Certain views and expressions become the only accepted view. Take the phrase ‘coloured people’ vs ‘people of colour’. One of those is allowed, one isn’t. Who decides this shit? And when an older person gets it ‘wrong’ they are publicly castigated.
    I believe in politeness, treating people with respect and don’t be a dick. Too much of this is extreme wokeists being a dick. But then the right should try not to get sucked in quite so much.
    Same sort of thing with immigration.

    Go to most inner-city districts in Manchester for example and they have gone from mainly white 30 years ago to very non-white. The few white people left feel like they are swamped but, if they say that, they are racist.

    Yet if you go to the places where the people who call them racist live (Didsbury / West Didsbury, Hale, Cheadle etc to continue the Manchester vibe), they are so white you have to wear sunglasses. No mixed couples - all white. No mixed kids - all white.

    To people living in those districts, talk of being swamped makes no sense because they don't see in their home lives. Sure, they've got the 'cool' Black guy who works in IT or Imran who is on their team but their friends, their closest contact, their families - all white.
    That is absolute rubbish. I lived in central London for 20 years and was as happy to call a racist a racist then as now.
    Mmmm, not sure you grasped my point. If you are wealthy, you don't have to worry about immigration.

    I've always thought it would be a great experiment to see if the burghers of Hampstead would be so tolerant of immigration if 30% of the housing stock was compulsory purchased and made into accommodation for refugee families.

    I'd put good money on the answer being no.
    I work with immigrants. What are you on about?
    So do I and married one - and one who is non-white. What's your point?
    And yet you have lots of friends who feel they can tell you they feel swamped by immigrants?
  • Options
    turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 15,918

    MJW said:

    Yes. The weirdest thing about the 'culture wars' is that the Tories seem to be repeating the mistakes of those they claim to oppose. There are some fair and reasonable criticisms of what gets called 'wokeness' - basically ultra progressive stances that won't brook dissent. But if you're constantly wanging on about it, lumping in any attitude to the left of Genghis Khan with it and deliberately doing stuff designed to 'own the libs' you look deeply weird and are as irritating if not more as those who hectored from the other side in the first place. I think paradoxically, you win culture wars by defusing them as makes the other side look like the mad extremists while the public, who largely want to get on with life in peace, side with those who seem more reasonable. Sunak's big asset was supposed to be pouring oil on troubled waters, but he's so weak at running his party has basically been led into inflaming matters by promoting or re-promoting some of the most gleefully obnoxious of his party's MPs.

    You saw it today, Rishi wading into a book being re-published: how wokeness is destroying the planet. FFS the NHS is on its knees and half the country is on strike. It is pathetic.

    If the next election gets rid of this rubbish I will be thankful. Trans people don't scare me, they don't impact my life whatsoever. Apparently I can't say anything anymore, I still say what I want and am not in jail yet. They are totally on another planet.
    I have to admit that I was earlier of the opinion "what a storm in a woke teacup", Augustus Gloop for example, is characterised by his over indulgence and as such he is f**. But later I learned the amendments were agreed between Puffin Books and the Dahl Estate and not the Great Socialist Conspiracy. Apparently raging anti-Semite as he was, Dahl was involved in his own PC related amendments during his lifetime. It's a funny old game Saint.
    He was - the Oompa-Loompas were once a lot more problematic. I think changing his text after his death is rather sinister though. Art is of its time. All art. Feel free to explain, but why change the art?
    Why is the PM involved though? What’s he got to do with it except point scoring.

    If the organisation that own the rights want to change it that is up to them. As it happens I don’t agree with changing the books but they’re a private organisation and they can do what they want. Won’t impact me at all, I will still buy the books in future.
    He was asked a question FFS. He gave an answer.
    He didn’t need to answer. He doesn’t answer anything else he is asked.
    And then it’s ‘Sunak refused to answer’…
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    Cookie said:

    DougSeal said:

    MJW said:

    Yes. The weirdest thing about the 'culture wars' is that the Tories seem to be repeating the mistakes of those they claim to oppose. There are some fair and reasonable criticisms of what gets called 'wokeness' - basically ultra progressive stances that won't brook dissent. But if you're constantly wanging on about it, lumping in any attitude to the left of Genghis Khan with it and deliberately doing stuff designed to 'own the libs' you look deeply weird and are as irritating if not more as those who hectored from the other side in the first place. I think paradoxically, you win culture wars by defusing them as makes the other side look like the mad extremists while the public, who largely want to get on with life in peace, side with those who seem more reasonable. Sunak's big asset was supposed to be pouring oil on troubled waters, but he's so weak at running his party has basically been led into inflaming matters by promoting or re-promoting some of the most gleefully obnoxious of his party's MPs.

    You saw it today, Rishi wading into a book being re-published: how wokeness is destroying the planet. FFS the NHS is on its knees and half the country is on strike. It is pathetic.

    If the next election gets rid of this rubbish I will be thankful. Trans people don't scare me, they don't impact my life whatsoever. Apparently I can't say anything anymore, I still say what I want and am not in jail yet. They are totally on another planet.
    Maybe because what you want to say matches the prevailing ‘correct’ speech? Look at the fuss about Forbes today. She is entitled to her view about gay marriage. And yet people are decrying it. Certain views and expressions become the only accepted view. Take the phrase ‘coloured people’ vs ‘people of colour’. One of those is allowed, one isn’t. Who decides this shit? And when an older person gets it ‘wrong’ they are publicly castigated.
    I believe in politeness, treating people with respect and don’t be a dick. Too much of this is extreme wokeists being a dick. But then the right should try not to get sucked in quite so much.
    Same sort of thing with immigration.

    Go to most inner-city districts in Manchester for example and they have gone from mainly white 30 years ago to very non-white. The few white people left feel like they are swamped but, if they say that, they are racist.

    Yet if you go to the places where the people who call them racist live (Didsbury / West Didsbury, Hale, Cheadle etc to continue the Manchester vibe), they are so white you have to wear sunglasses. No mixed couples - all white. No mixed kids - all white.

    To people living in those districts, talk of being swamped makes no sense because they don't see in their home lives. Sure, they've got the 'cool' Black guy who works in IT or Imran who is on their team but their friends, their closest contact, their families - all white.
    That is absolute rubbish. I lived in central London for 20 years and was as happy to call a racist a racist then as now.
    Mmmm, not sure you grasped my point. If you are wealthy, you don't have to worry about immigration.

    I've always thought it would be a great experiment to see if the burghers of Hampstead would be so tolerant of immigration if 30% of the housing stock was compulsory purchased and made into accommodation for refugee families.

    I'd put good money on the answer being no.
    I work with immigrants. What are you on about?
    Well, that immigration disproportionately impacts poor areas and that urban liberals im rich enclaves may feel differently if their own areas were more impacted.
    London has some of the worst poverty in Europe. These people don’t seem to be blaming immigrants.

    Areas are impacted because of Government failure.
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    MJW said:

    Yes. The weirdest thing about the 'culture wars' is that the Tories seem to be repeating the mistakes of those they claim to oppose. There are some fair and reasonable criticisms of what gets called 'wokeness' - basically ultra progressive stances that won't brook dissent. But if you're constantly wanging on about it, lumping in any attitude to the left of Genghis Khan with it and deliberately doing stuff designed to 'own the libs' you look deeply weird and are as irritating if not more as those who hectored from the other side in the first place. I think paradoxically, you win culture wars by defusing them as makes the other side look like the mad extremists while the public, who largely want to get on with life in peace, side with those who seem more reasonable. Sunak's big asset was supposed to be pouring oil on troubled waters, but he's so weak at running his party has basically been led into inflaming matters by promoting or re-promoting some of the most gleefully obnoxious of his party's MPs.

    You saw it today, Rishi wading into a book being re-published: how wokeness is destroying the planet. FFS the NHS is on its knees and half the country is on strike. It is pathetic.

    If the next election gets rid of this rubbish I will be thankful. Trans people don't scare me, they don't impact my life whatsoever. Apparently I can't say anything anymore, I still say what I want and am not in jail yet. They are totally on another planet.
    Maybe because what you want to say matches the prevailing ‘correct’ speech? Look at the fuss about Forbes today. She is entitled to her view about gay marriage. And yet people are decrying it. Certain views and expressions become the only accepted view. Take the phrase ‘coloured people’ vs ‘people of colour’. One of those is allowed, one isn’t. Who decides this shit? And when an older person gets it ‘wrong’ they are publicly castigated.
    I believe in politeness, treating people with respect and don’t be a dick. Too much of this is extreme wokeists being a dick. But then the right should try not to get sucked in quite so much.
    Same sort of thing with immigration.

    Go to most inner-city districts in Manchester for example and they have gone from mainly white 30 years ago to very non-white. The few white people left feel like they are swamped but, if they say that, they are racist.

    Yet if you go to the places where the people who call them racist live (Didsbury / West Didsbury, Hale, Cheadle etc to continue the Manchester vibe), they are so white you have to wear sunglasses. No mixed couples - all white. No mixed kids - all white.

    To people living in those districts, talk of being swamped makes no sense because they don't see in their home lives. Sure, they've got the 'cool' Black guy who works in IT or Imran who is on their team but their friends, their closest contact, their families - all white.
    Not my experience tbh. Worked in Halifax - very little racism evident; lived in a village near Selby - quite a lot of casual racism, sadly.

    The former was very racially diverse, the latter very white.
    Without having direct knowledge of those places, I would imagine the village was very white but also very working class.

    The places I'm talking about in Manchester are very white but also very graduate professional and wealthy enclaves. They don't see immigration as a problem because, quite frankly, they don't encounter that many in their areas (and those they do are similarly wealthy and educated, not having come from Somalia in the past 12 months).
    In my experience the racism was worse in the places that had no experience of immigration, they just feared it.

    In multicultural Halifax otoh everyone knew, worked with, were neighbours to, had kids at the same school as, people from other cultures. People were seen as people first and foremost, good bad and indifferent but not defined by their ethnicity.
    Oh, that I can see. And my parents for example are actually happy about the changes - their view is it makes the area safer and more family friendly.

    However, the reaction on here is interesting (and this is not aimed at you). People react as though the SS are on the march again. Do you really think poor people feel comfortable talking about their concerns on this in public? Absolutely not, they will just do their talking in the secrecy of the voting booth.
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    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 33,148
    O/T We watched Die Hard for the first time ever last night (on the back of reading the Alan Rickman diaries).

    It's rather crap isn't it?
  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 26,101
    Foxy said:

    MJW said:

    Yes. The weirdest thing about the 'culture wars' is that the Tories seem to be repeating the mistakes of those they claim to oppose. There are some fair and reasonable criticisms of what gets called 'wokeness' - basically ultra progressive stances that won't brook dissent. But if you're constantly wanging on about it, lumping in any attitude to the left of Genghis Khan with it and deliberately doing stuff designed to 'own the libs' you look deeply weird and are as irritating if not more as those who hectored from the other side in the first place. I think paradoxically, you win culture wars by defusing them as makes the other side look like the mad extremists while the public, who largely want to get on with life in peace, side with those who seem more reasonable. Sunak's big asset was supposed to be pouring oil on troubled waters, but he's so weak at running his party has basically been led into inflaming matters by promoting or re-promoting some of the most gleefully obnoxious of his party's MPs.

    You saw it today, Rishi wading into a book being re-published: how wokeness is destroying the planet. FFS the NHS is on its knees and half the country is on strike. It is pathetic.

    If the next election gets rid of this rubbish I will be thankful. Trans people don't scare me, they don't impact my life whatsoever. Apparently I can't say anything anymore, I still say what I want and am not in jail yet. They are totally on another planet.
    I have to admit that I was earlier of the opinion "what a storm in a woke teacup", Augustus Gloop for example, is characterised by his over indulgence and as such he is f**. But later I learned the amendments were agreed between Puffin Books and the Dahl Estate and not the Great Socialist Conspiracy. Apparently raging anti-Semite as he was, Dahl was involved in his own PC related amendments during his lifetime. It's a funny old game Saint.
    Children's books are of their time. I was brought up on Biggles, Molesworth, Famous Five and Commando comics. Not really the cup of tea of my boys, who preferred Captain Underpants, Charlie Higson and some rather derivative pulp fantasy stuff. Fashions change and I was never a fan of Dahl particularly myself.

    Get kids hooked on reading, but resist temptation to force on them books that you liked as a youth.
    My particular favourites were the Jennings series by Anthony Buckeridge and "How to be Topp", as any fule kno.

    Perhaps that's why I am an advocate for comprehensive education.
  • Options
    The Tories after all decided to limit education about gay people, oddly they seem averse to talking about that when we talk about the left wing state brainwashing the youth
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    Tres said:

    DougSeal said:

    MJW said:

    Yes. The weirdest thing about the 'culture wars' is that the Tories seem to be repeating the mistakes of those they claim to oppose. There are some fair and reasonable criticisms of what gets called 'wokeness' - basically ultra progressive stances that won't brook dissent. But if you're constantly wanging on about it, lumping in any attitude to the left of Genghis Khan with it and deliberately doing stuff designed to 'own the libs' you look deeply weird and are as irritating if not more as those who hectored from the other side in the first place. I think paradoxically, you win culture wars by defusing them as makes the other side look like the mad extremists while the public, who largely want to get on with life in peace, side with those who seem more reasonable. Sunak's big asset was supposed to be pouring oil on troubled waters, but he's so weak at running his party has basically been led into inflaming matters by promoting or re-promoting some of the most gleefully obnoxious of his party's MPs.

    You saw it today, Rishi wading into a book being re-published: how wokeness is destroying the planet. FFS the NHS is on its knees and half the country is on strike. It is pathetic.

    If the next election gets rid of this rubbish I will be thankful. Trans people don't scare me, they don't impact my life whatsoever. Apparently I can't say anything anymore, I still say what I want and am not in jail yet. They are totally on another planet.
    Maybe because what you want to say matches the prevailing ‘correct’ speech? Look at the fuss about Forbes today. She is entitled to her view about gay marriage. And yet people are decrying it. Certain views and expressions become the only accepted view. Take the phrase ‘coloured people’ vs ‘people of colour’. One of those is allowed, one isn’t. Who decides this shit? And when an older person gets it ‘wrong’ they are publicly castigated.
    I believe in politeness, treating people with respect and don’t be a dick. Too much of this is extreme wokeists being a dick. But then the right should try not to get sucked in quite so much.
    Same sort of thing with immigration.

    Go to most inner-city districts in Manchester for example and they have gone from mainly white 30 years ago to very non-white. The few white people left feel like they are swamped but, if they say that, they are racist.

    Yet if you go to the places where the people who call them racist live (Didsbury / West Didsbury, Hale, Cheadle etc to continue the Manchester vibe), they are so white you have to wear sunglasses. No mixed couples - all white. No mixed kids - all white.

    To people living in those districts, talk of being swamped makes no sense because they don't see in their home lives. Sure, they've got the 'cool' Black guy who works in IT or Imran who is on their team but their friends, their closest contact, their families - all white.
    That is absolute rubbish. I lived in central London for 20 years and was as happy to call a racist a racist then as now.
    Mmmm, not sure you grasped my point. If you are wealthy, you don't have to worry about immigration.

    I've always thought it would be a great experiment to see if the burghers of Hampstead would be so tolerant of immigration if 30% of the housing stock was compulsory purchased and made into accommodation for refugee families.

    I'd put good money on the answer being no.
    I work with immigrants. What are you on about?
    So do I and married one - and one who is non-white. What's your point?
    And yet you have lots of friends who feel they can tell you they feel swamped by immigrants?
    An example of someone who unintentionally showed they didn't read the words but leapt into the fray in a Pavlovian reaction.

    Actually my friends are mainly professionals who live in wealthy areas. But my background is very much what I described. And what I hear when I return.


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    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 41,074

    Scott_xP said:

    @BrianSpanner1: Bloody hell.
    He was in the Parliament building.
    Well played Team Forbes.
    https://twitter.com/BrianSpanner1/status/1627782499232350209/photo/1

    Somebody will have to explain the significance of that one to me.
    I wouldn't use Brian Spanner as a source tweet if I were Scott. It has a certain history, from what I recall. I don't want to repeat the tweets in question on here, for very good reasons.
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    FoxyFoxy Posts: 46,007
    Cookie said:

    DougSeal said:

    MJW said:

    Yes. The weirdest thing about the 'culture wars' is that the Tories seem to be repeating the mistakes of those they claim to oppose. There are some fair and reasonable criticisms of what gets called 'wokeness' - basically ultra progressive stances that won't brook dissent. But if you're constantly wanging on about it, lumping in any attitude to the left of Genghis Khan with it and deliberately doing stuff designed to 'own the libs' you look deeply weird and are as irritating if not more as those who hectored from the other side in the first place. I think paradoxically, you win culture wars by defusing them as makes the other side look like the mad extremists while the public, who largely want to get on with life in peace, side with those who seem more reasonable. Sunak's big asset was supposed to be pouring oil on troubled waters, but he's so weak at running his party has basically been led into inflaming matters by promoting or re-promoting some of the most gleefully obnoxious of his party's MPs.

    You saw it today, Rishi wading into a book being re-published: how wokeness is destroying the planet. FFS the NHS is on its knees and half the country is on strike. It is pathetic.

    If the next election gets rid of this rubbish I will be thankful. Trans people don't scare me, they don't impact my life whatsoever. Apparently I can't say anything anymore, I still say what I want and am not in jail yet. They are totally on another planet.
    Maybe because what you want to say matches the prevailing ‘correct’ speech? Look at the fuss about Forbes today. She is entitled to her view about gay marriage. And yet people are decrying it. Certain views and expressions become the only accepted view. Take the phrase ‘coloured people’ vs ‘people of colour’. One of those is allowed, one isn’t. Who decides this shit? And when an older person gets it ‘wrong’ they are publicly castigated.
    I believe in politeness, treating people with respect and don’t be a dick. Too much of this is extreme wokeists being a dick. But then the right should try not to get sucked in quite so much.
    Same sort of thing with immigration.

    Go to most inner-city districts in Manchester for example and they have gone from mainly white 30 years ago to very non-white. The few white people left feel like they are swamped but, if they say that, they are racist.

    Yet if you go to the places where the people who call them racist live (Didsbury / West Didsbury, Hale, Cheadle etc to continue the Manchester vibe), they are so white you have to wear sunglasses. No mixed couples - all white. No mixed kids - all white.

    To people living in those districts, talk of being swamped makes no sense because they don't see in their home lives. Sure, they've got the 'cool' Black guy who works in IT or Imran who is on their team but their friends, their closest contact, their families - all white.
    That is absolute rubbish. I lived in central London for 20 years and was as happy to call a racist a racist then as now.
    Mmmm, not sure you grasped my point. If you are wealthy, you don't have to worry about immigration.

    I've always thought it would be a great experiment to see if the burghers of Hampstead would be so tolerant of immigration if 30% of the housing stock was compulsory purchased and made into accommodation for refugee families.

    I'd put good money on the answer being no.
    I work with immigrants. What are you on about?
    Well, that immigration disproportionately impacts poor areas and that urban liberals im rich enclaves may feel differently if their own areas were more impacted.
    I think class matters more than origins.

    It is a large part of why East African Asians (like the Sunaks) integrated so well. They were English speaking middle class when they arrived, and slipped fairly seamlessly into the English upper middle class. Nobody would object to them as neighbours.

    Somali gangsters, Jamaican Yardies or English chavs would be unwelcome in Didsbury, but that is a class issue not one of colour.
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    CookieCookie Posts: 11,965

    Cookie said:

    Cookie said:

    DougSeal said:

    MJW said:

    Yes. The weirdest thing about the 'culture wars' is that the Tories seem to be repeating the mistakes of those they claim to oppose. There are some fair and reasonable criticisms of what gets called 'wokeness' - basically ultra progressive stances that won't brook dissent. But if you're constantly wanging on about it, lumping in any attitude to the left of Genghis Khan with it and deliberately doing stuff designed to 'own the libs' you look deeply weird and are as irritating if not more as those who hectored from the other side in the first place. I think paradoxically, you win culture wars by defusing them as makes the other side look like the mad extremists while the public, who largely want to get on with life in peace, side with those who seem more reasonable. Sunak's big asset was supposed to be pouring oil on troubled waters, but he's so weak at running his party has basically been led into inflaming matters by promoting or re-promoting some of the most gleefully obnoxious of his party's MPs.

    You saw it today, Rishi wading into a book being re-published: how wokeness is destroying the planet. FFS the NHS is on its knees and half the country is on strike. It is pathetic.

    If the next election gets rid of this rubbish I will be thankful. Trans people don't scare me, they don't impact my life whatsoever. Apparently I can't say anything anymore, I still say what I want and am not in jail yet. They are totally on another planet.
    Maybe because what you want to say matches the prevailing ‘correct’ speech? Look at the fuss about Forbes today. She is entitled to her view about gay marriage. And yet people are decrying it. Certain views and expressions become the only accepted view. Take the phrase ‘coloured people’ vs ‘people of colour’. One of those is allowed, one isn’t. Who decides this shit? And when an older person gets it ‘wrong’ they are publicly castigated.
    I believe in politeness, treating people with respect and don’t be a dick. Too much of this is extreme wokeists being a dick. But then the right should try not to get sucked in quite so much.
    Same sort of thing with immigration.

    Go to most inner-city districts in Manchester for example and they have gone from mainly white 30 years ago to very non-white. The few white people left feel like they are swamped but, if they say that, they are racist.

    Yet if you go to the places where the people who call them racist live (Didsbury / West Didsbury, Hale, Cheadle etc to continue the Manchester vibe), they are so white you have to wear sunglasses. No mixed couples - all white. No mixed kids - all white.

    To people living in those districts, talk of being swamped makes no sense because they don't see in their home lives. Sure, they've got the 'cool' Black guy who works in IT or Imran who is on their team but their friends, their closest contact, their families - all white.
    That is absolute rubbish. I lived in central London for 20 years and was as happy to call a racist a racist then as now.
    I don't see why that makes Kitchen Cabinet's post rubbish.
    I live just outside the M60 and know well very few non-white people. And most of those I do know are Hong Kong Chinese. Yet walk arounr Manchester City Centre and - well, I'd be exaggerating to say I feel lile I'm in a minority, but perhaps every third or fourth person you see is non-white.
    Sale remains pretty white - until you look at its schools. It certainly won't still be pretty white in 15 years' time.
    You feel like a minority, even though you aren’t. But so what?
    I said I'd be exaggerating if I felt like I'm in a minority.
    My point was that GM's middle class suburbs are still very white, as KC said.
    Okay but that doesn’t mean we should fear immigrants as many people are told to do.
    The point is that it's quite easy in white suburbs like Sale to take a relaxed view of immigration. Rather less so if you live in, say, Cheetham Hill. People there don't fear immigrants because they are told to, they fear them because they see their homes change dramatically.
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    Foxy said:

    Cookie said:

    DougSeal said:

    MJW said:

    Yes. The weirdest thing about the 'culture wars' is that the Tories seem to be repeating the mistakes of those they claim to oppose. There are some fair and reasonable criticisms of what gets called 'wokeness' - basically ultra progressive stances that won't brook dissent. But if you're constantly wanging on about it, lumping in any attitude to the left of Genghis Khan with it and deliberately doing stuff designed to 'own the libs' you look deeply weird and are as irritating if not more as those who hectored from the other side in the first place. I think paradoxically, you win culture wars by defusing them as makes the other side look like the mad extremists while the public, who largely want to get on with life in peace, side with those who seem more reasonable. Sunak's big asset was supposed to be pouring oil on troubled waters, but he's so weak at running his party has basically been led into inflaming matters by promoting or re-promoting some of the most gleefully obnoxious of his party's MPs.

    You saw it today, Rishi wading into a book being re-published: how wokeness is destroying the planet. FFS the NHS is on its knees and half the country is on strike. It is pathetic.

    If the next election gets rid of this rubbish I will be thankful. Trans people don't scare me, they don't impact my life whatsoever. Apparently I can't say anything anymore, I still say what I want and am not in jail yet. They are totally on another planet.
    Maybe because what you want to say matches the prevailing ‘correct’ speech? Look at the fuss about Forbes today. She is entitled to her view about gay marriage. And yet people are decrying it. Certain views and expressions become the only accepted view. Take the phrase ‘coloured people’ vs ‘people of colour’. One of those is allowed, one isn’t. Who decides this shit? And when an older person gets it ‘wrong’ they are publicly castigated.
    I believe in politeness, treating people with respect and don’t be a dick. Too much of this is extreme wokeists being a dick. But then the right should try not to get sucked in quite so much.
    Same sort of thing with immigration.

    Go to most inner-city districts in Manchester for example and they have gone from mainly white 30 years ago to very non-white. The few white people left feel like they are swamped but, if they say that, they are racist.

    Yet if you go to the places where the people who call them racist live (Didsbury / West Didsbury, Hale, Cheadle etc to continue the Manchester vibe), they are so white you have to wear sunglasses. No mixed couples - all white. No mixed kids - all white.

    To people living in those districts, talk of being swamped makes no sense because they don't see in their home lives. Sure, they've got the 'cool' Black guy who works in IT or Imran who is on their team but their friends, their closest contact, their families - all white.
    That is absolute rubbish. I lived in central London for 20 years and was as happy to call a racist a racist then as now.
    Mmmm, not sure you grasped my point. If you are wealthy, you don't have to worry about immigration.

    I've always thought it would be a great experiment to see if the burghers of Hampstead would be so tolerant of immigration if 30% of the housing stock was compulsory purchased and made into accommodation for refugee families.

    I'd put good money on the answer being no.
    I work with immigrants. What are you on about?
    Well, that immigration disproportionately impacts poor areas and that urban liberals im rich enclaves may feel differently if their own areas were more impacted.
    I think class matters more than origins.

    It is a large part of why East African Asians (like the Sunaks) integrated so well. They were English speaking middle class when they arrived, and slipped fairly seamlessly into the English upper middle class. Nobody would object to them as neighbours.

    Somali gangsters, Jamaican Yardies or English chavs would be unwelcome in Didsbury, but that is a class issue not one of colour.
    It’s like in my parents’ village, they opposed new council housing because they thought it would bring crime into the area.
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 33,148

    MJW said:

    Yes. The weirdest thing about the 'culture wars' is that the Tories seem to be repeating the mistakes of those they claim to oppose. There are some fair and reasonable criticisms of what gets called 'wokeness' - basically ultra progressive stances that won't brook dissent. But if you're constantly wanging on about it, lumping in any attitude to the left of Genghis Khan with it and deliberately doing stuff designed to 'own the libs' you look deeply weird and are as irritating if not more as those who hectored from the other side in the first place. I think paradoxically, you win culture wars by defusing them as makes the other side look like the mad extremists while the public, who largely want to get on with life in peace, side with those who seem more reasonable. Sunak's big asset was supposed to be pouring oil on troubled waters, but he's so weak at running his party has basically been led into inflaming matters by promoting or re-promoting some of the most gleefully obnoxious of his party's MPs.

    You saw it today, Rishi wading into a book being re-published: how wokeness is destroying the planet. FFS the NHS is on its knees and half the country is on strike. It is pathetic.

    If the next election gets rid of this rubbish I will be thankful. Trans people don't scare me, they don't impact my life whatsoever. Apparently I can't say anything anymore, I still say what I want and am not in jail yet. They are totally on another planet.
    Maybe because what you want to say matches the prevailing ‘correct’ speech? Look at the fuss about Forbes today. She is entitled to her view about gay marriage. And yet people are decrying it. Certain views and expressions become the only accepted view. Take the phrase ‘coloured people’ vs ‘people of colour’. One of those is allowed, one isn’t. Who decides this shit? And when an older person gets it ‘wrong’ they are publicly castigated.
    I believe in politeness, treating people with respect and don’t be a dick. Too much of this is extreme wokeists being a dick. But then the right should try not to get sucked in quite so much.
    Same sort of thing with immigration.

    Go to most inner-city districts in Manchester for example and they have gone from mainly white 30 years ago to very non-white. The few white people left feel like they are swamped but, if they say that, they are racist.

    Yet if you go to the places where the people who call them racist live (Didsbury / West Didsbury, Hale, Cheadle etc to continue the Manchester vibe), they are so white you have to wear sunglasses. No mixed couples - all white. No mixed kids - all white.

    To people living in those districts, talk of being swamped makes no sense because they don't see in their home lives. Sure, they've got the 'cool' Black guy who works in IT or Imran who is on their team but their friends, their closest contact, their families - all white.
    Not my experience tbh. Worked in Halifax - very little racism evident; lived in a village near Selby - quite a lot of casual racism, sadly.

    The former was very racially diverse, the latter very white.
    Without having direct knowledge of those places, I would imagine the village was very white but also very working class.

    The places I'm talking about in Manchester are very white but also very graduate professional and wealthy enclaves. They don't see immigration as a problem because, quite frankly, they don't encounter that many in their areas (and those they do are similarly wealthy and educated, not having come from Somalia in the past 12 months).
    In my experience the racism was worse in the places that had no experience of immigration, they just feared it.

    In multicultural Halifax otoh everyone knew, worked with, were neighbours to, had kids at the same school as, people from other cultures. People were seen as people first and foremost, good bad and indifferent but not defined by their ethnicity.
    Oh, that I can see. And my parents for example are actually happy about the changes - their view is it makes the area safer and more family friendly.

    However, the reaction on here is interesting (and this is not aimed at you). People react as though the SS are on the march again. Do you really think poor people feel comfortable talking about their concerns on this in public? Absolutely not, they will just do their talking in the secrecy of the voting booth.
    I think you are underestimating 'poor people'. Most of the racists I have encountered are very middle class.
  • Options
    Cookie said:

    Cookie said:

    Cookie said:

    DougSeal said:

    MJW said:

    Yes. The weirdest thing about the 'culture wars' is that the Tories seem to be repeating the mistakes of those they claim to oppose. There are some fair and reasonable criticisms of what gets called 'wokeness' - basically ultra progressive stances that won't brook dissent. But if you're constantly wanging on about it, lumping in any attitude to the left of Genghis Khan with it and deliberately doing stuff designed to 'own the libs' you look deeply weird and are as irritating if not more as those who hectored from the other side in the first place. I think paradoxically, you win culture wars by defusing them as makes the other side look like the mad extremists while the public, who largely want to get on with life in peace, side with those who seem more reasonable. Sunak's big asset was supposed to be pouring oil on troubled waters, but he's so weak at running his party has basically been led into inflaming matters by promoting or re-promoting some of the most gleefully obnoxious of his party's MPs.

    You saw it today, Rishi wading into a book being re-published: how wokeness is destroying the planet. FFS the NHS is on its knees and half the country is on strike. It is pathetic.

    If the next election gets rid of this rubbish I will be thankful. Trans people don't scare me, they don't impact my life whatsoever. Apparently I can't say anything anymore, I still say what I want and am not in jail yet. They are totally on another planet.
    Maybe because what you want to say matches the prevailing ‘correct’ speech? Look at the fuss about Forbes today. She is entitled to her view about gay marriage. And yet people are decrying it. Certain views and expressions become the only accepted view. Take the phrase ‘coloured people’ vs ‘people of colour’. One of those is allowed, one isn’t. Who decides this shit? And when an older person gets it ‘wrong’ they are publicly castigated.
    I believe in politeness, treating people with respect and don’t be a dick. Too much of this is extreme wokeists being a dick. But then the right should try not to get sucked in quite so much.
    Same sort of thing with immigration.

    Go to most inner-city districts in Manchester for example and they have gone from mainly white 30 years ago to very non-white. The few white people left feel like they are swamped but, if they say that, they are racist.

    Yet if you go to the places where the people who call them racist live (Didsbury / West Didsbury, Hale, Cheadle etc to continue the Manchester vibe), they are so white you have to wear sunglasses. No mixed couples - all white. No mixed kids - all white.

    To people living in those districts, talk of being swamped makes no sense because they don't see in their home lives. Sure, they've got the 'cool' Black guy who works in IT or Imran who is on their team but their friends, their closest contact, their families - all white.
    That is absolute rubbish. I lived in central London for 20 years and was as happy to call a racist a racist then as now.
    I don't see why that makes Kitchen Cabinet's post rubbish.
    I live just outside the M60 and know well very few non-white people. And most of those I do know are Hong Kong Chinese. Yet walk arounr Manchester City Centre and - well, I'd be exaggerating to say I feel lile I'm in a minority, but perhaps every third or fourth person you see is non-white.
    Sale remains pretty white - until you look at its schools. It certainly won't still be pretty white in 15 years' time.
    You feel like a minority, even though you aren’t. But so what?
    I said I'd be exaggerating if I felt like I'm in a minority.
    My point was that GM's middle class suburbs are still very white, as KC said.
    Okay but that doesn’t mean we should fear immigrants as many people are told to do.
    The point is that it's quite easy in white suburbs like Sale to take a relaxed view of immigration. Rather less so if you live in, say, Cheetham Hill. People there don't fear immigrants because they are told to, they fear them because they see their homes change dramatically.
    We used to be told to fear Jews. Why has that changed, is it because people have realised they’re not actually taking our jobs and money?
  • Options
    BurgessianBurgessian Posts: 2,505
    Scott_xP said:

    Ruth Davidson @RuthDavidsonPC

    (Obviously) I'm not an in-depth student of the SNP membership, but I'm pretty sure that, with this, Kate Forbes has just set fire to her leadership campaign on the very same day as she launched it.
    https://twitter.com/RuthDavidsonPC/status/1627750276995158041

    Alexander Brown
    @AlexofBrown
    Senior member of Kate Forbes campaign says "she has fucked it" after the finance secretary said she would have voted against gay marriage

    32 seems pretty young to have blown your political career. She can't very well untalk the talk. And if her views are unacceptable now, they will be unacceptable in any future leadership election.

    Shame, in a way, as she is by all accounts a pleasant person quite capable of having reasonable personal relations, even with yoons and tories.

  • Options
    Cookie said:

    DougSeal said:

    MJW said:

    Yes. The weirdest thing about the 'culture wars' is that the Tories seem to be repeating the mistakes of those they claim to oppose. There are some fair and reasonable criticisms of what gets called 'wokeness' - basically ultra progressive stances that won't brook dissent. But if you're constantly wanging on about it, lumping in any attitude to the left of Genghis Khan with it and deliberately doing stuff designed to 'own the libs' you look deeply weird and are as irritating if not more as those who hectored from the other side in the first place. I think paradoxically, you win culture wars by defusing them as makes the other side look like the mad extremists while the public, who largely want to get on with life in peace, side with those who seem more reasonable. Sunak's big asset was supposed to be pouring oil on troubled waters, but he's so weak at running his party has basically been led into inflaming matters by promoting or re-promoting some of the most gleefully obnoxious of his party's MPs.

    You saw it today, Rishi wading into a book being re-published: how wokeness is destroying the planet. FFS the NHS is on its knees and half the country is on strike. It is pathetic.

    If the next election gets rid of this rubbish I will be thankful. Trans people don't scare me, they don't impact my life whatsoever. Apparently I can't say anything anymore, I still say what I want and am not in jail yet. They are totally on another planet.
    Maybe because what you want to say matches the prevailing ‘correct’ speech? Look at the fuss about Forbes today. She is entitled to her view about gay marriage. And yet people are decrying it. Certain views and expressions become the only accepted view. Take the phrase ‘coloured people’ vs ‘people of colour’. One of those is allowed, one isn’t. Who decides this shit? And when an older person gets it ‘wrong’ they are publicly castigated.
    I believe in politeness, treating people with respect and don’t be a dick. Too much of this is extreme wokeists being a dick. But then the right should try not to get sucked in quite so much.
    Same sort of thing with immigration.

    Go to most inner-city districts in Manchester for example and they have gone from mainly white 30 years ago to very non-white. The few white people left feel like they are swamped but, if they say that, they are racist.

    Yet if you go to the places where the people who call them racist live (Didsbury / West Didsbury, Hale, Cheadle etc to continue the Manchester vibe), they are so white you have to wear sunglasses. No mixed couples - all white. No mixed kids - all white.

    To people living in those districts, talk of being swamped makes no sense because they don't see in their home lives. Sure, they've got the 'cool' Black guy who works in IT or Imran who is on their team but their friends, their closest contact, their families - all white.
    That is absolute rubbish. I lived in central London for 20 years and was as happy to call a racist a racist then as now.
    Mmmm, not sure you grasped my point. If you are wealthy, you don't have to worry about immigration.

    I've always thought it would be a great experiment to see if the burghers of Hampstead would be so tolerant of immigration if 30% of the housing stock was compulsory purchased and made into accommodation for refugee families.

    I'd put good money on the answer being no.
    I work with immigrants. What are you on about?
    Well, that immigration disproportionately impacts poor areas and that urban liberals im rich enclaves may feel differently if their own areas were more impacted.
    It's no use Cookie, when it comes to the subject, you will never get certain types to see this - as far as they are concerned, if you express any sort of empathy for what certain groups may be feeling, you might as well be reading Der Sturmer.
  • Options

    Cookie said:

    DougSeal said:

    MJW said:

    Yes. The weirdest thing about the 'culture wars' is that the Tories seem to be repeating the mistakes of those they claim to oppose. There are some fair and reasonable criticisms of what gets called 'wokeness' - basically ultra progressive stances that won't brook dissent. But if you're constantly wanging on about it, lumping in any attitude to the left of Genghis Khan with it and deliberately doing stuff designed to 'own the libs' you look deeply weird and are as irritating if not more as those who hectored from the other side in the first place. I think paradoxically, you win culture wars by defusing them as makes the other side look like the mad extremists while the public, who largely want to get on with life in peace, side with those who seem more reasonable. Sunak's big asset was supposed to be pouring oil on troubled waters, but he's so weak at running his party has basically been led into inflaming matters by promoting or re-promoting some of the most gleefully obnoxious of his party's MPs.

    You saw it today, Rishi wading into a book being re-published: how wokeness is destroying the planet. FFS the NHS is on its knees and half the country is on strike. It is pathetic.

    If the next election gets rid of this rubbish I will be thankful. Trans people don't scare me, they don't impact my life whatsoever. Apparently I can't say anything anymore, I still say what I want and am not in jail yet. They are totally on another planet.
    Maybe because what you want to say matches the prevailing ‘correct’ speech? Look at the fuss about Forbes today. She is entitled to her view about gay marriage. And yet people are decrying it. Certain views and expressions become the only accepted view. Take the phrase ‘coloured people’ vs ‘people of colour’. One of those is allowed, one isn’t. Who decides this shit? And when an older person gets it ‘wrong’ they are publicly castigated.
    I believe in politeness, treating people with respect and don’t be a dick. Too much of this is extreme wokeists being a dick. But then the right should try not to get sucked in quite so much.
    Same sort of thing with immigration.

    Go to most inner-city districts in Manchester for example and they have gone from mainly white 30 years ago to very non-white. The few white people left feel like they are swamped but, if they say that, they are racist.

    Yet if you go to the places where the people who call them racist live (Didsbury / West Didsbury, Hale, Cheadle etc to continue the Manchester vibe), they are so white you have to wear sunglasses. No mixed couples - all white. No mixed kids - all white.

    To people living in those districts, talk of being swamped makes no sense because they don't see in their home lives. Sure, they've got the 'cool' Black guy who works in IT or Imran who is on their team but their friends, their closest contact, their families - all white.
    That is absolute rubbish. I lived in central London for 20 years and was as happy to call a racist a racist then as now.
    Mmmm, not sure you grasped my point. If you are wealthy, you don't have to worry about immigration.

    I've always thought it would be a great experiment to see if the burghers of Hampstead would be so tolerant of immigration if 30% of the housing stock was compulsory purchased and made into accommodation for refugee families.

    I'd put good money on the answer being no.
    I work with immigrants. What are you on about?
    Well, that immigration disproportionately impacts poor areas and that urban liberals im rich enclaves may feel differently if their own areas were more impacted.
    It's no use Cookie, when it comes to the subject, you will never get certain types to see this - as far as they are concerned, if you express any sort of empathy for what certain groups may be feeling, you might as well be reading Der Sturmer.
    I am arguing in good faith. Trying to understand.
  • Options
    turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 15,918

    Scott_xP said:

    @BrianSpanner1: Bloody hell.
    He was in the Parliament building.
    Well played Team Forbes.
    https://twitter.com/BrianSpanner1/status/1627782499232350209/photo/1

    Somebody will have to explain the significance of that one to me.
    I had to look it up. I think it’s about voting and not voting and the reason, presumably about Muslim Hamza Yousef not voting for gay marriage.
  • Options
    My question for the Scots

    Is the SNP about to enter a divisive leadership contest with similar ramifications as has occurred with the conservative party ?
  • Options
    turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 15,918

    O/T We watched Die Hard for the first time ever last night (on the back of reading the Alan Rickman diaries).

    It's rather crap isn't it?

    I rather like it, but it’s of it’s time. I suggest not pursuing the sequels…
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 41,074

    My question for the Scots

    Is the SNP about to enter a divisive leadership contest with similar ramifications as has occurred with the conservative party ?

    Too early to say. I noted earlier (but you were out, perhaps) that we have till Friday noon for candidates to stand.
  • Options

    MJW said:

    Yes. The weirdest thing about the 'culture wars' is that the Tories seem to be repeating the mistakes of those they claim to oppose. There are some fair and reasonable criticisms of what gets called 'wokeness' - basically ultra progressive stances that won't brook dissent. But if you're constantly wanging on about it, lumping in any attitude to the left of Genghis Khan with it and deliberately doing stuff designed to 'own the libs' you look deeply weird and are as irritating if not more as those who hectored from the other side in the first place. I think paradoxically, you win culture wars by defusing them as makes the other side look like the mad extremists while the public, who largely want to get on with life in peace, side with those who seem more reasonable. Sunak's big asset was supposed to be pouring oil on troubled waters, but he's so weak at running his party has basically been led into inflaming matters by promoting or re-promoting some of the most gleefully obnoxious of his party's MPs.

    You saw it today, Rishi wading into a book being re-published: how wokeness is destroying the planet. FFS the NHS is on its knees and half the country is on strike. It is pathetic.

    If the next election gets rid of this rubbish I will be thankful. Trans people don't scare me, they don't impact my life whatsoever. Apparently I can't say anything anymore, I still say what I want and am not in jail yet. They are totally on another planet.
    Maybe because what you want to say matches the prevailing ‘correct’ speech? Look at the fuss about Forbes today. She is entitled to her view about gay marriage. And yet people are decrying it. Certain views and expressions become the only accepted view. Take the phrase ‘coloured people’ vs ‘people of colour’. One of those is allowed, one isn’t. Who decides this shit? And when an older person gets it ‘wrong’ they are publicly castigated.
    I believe in politeness, treating people with respect and don’t be a dick. Too much of this is extreme wokeists being a dick. But then the right should try not to get sucked in quite so much.
    Same sort of thing with immigration.

    Go to most inner-city districts in Manchester for example and they have gone from mainly white 30 years ago to very non-white. The few white people left feel like they are swamped but, if they say that, they are racist.

    Yet if you go to the places where the people who call them racist live (Didsbury / West Didsbury, Hale, Cheadle etc to continue the Manchester vibe), they are so white you have to wear sunglasses. No mixed couples - all white. No mixed kids - all white.

    To people living in those districts, talk of being swamped makes no sense because they don't see in their home lives. Sure, they've got the 'cool' Black guy who works in IT or Imran who is on their team but their friends, their closest contact, their families - all white.
    Not my experience tbh. Worked in Halifax - very little racism evident; lived in a village near Selby - quite a lot of casual racism, sadly.

    The former was very racially diverse, the latter very white.
    Without having direct knowledge of those places, I would imagine the village was very white but also very working class.

    The places I'm talking about in Manchester are very white but also very graduate professional and wealthy enclaves. They don't see immigration as a problem because, quite frankly, they don't encounter that many in their areas (and those they do are similarly wealthy and educated, not having come from Somalia in the past 12 months).
    In my experience the racism was worse in the places that had no experience of immigration, they just feared it.

    In multicultural Halifax otoh everyone knew, worked with, were neighbours to, had kids at the same school as, people from other cultures. People were seen as people first and foremost, good bad and indifferent but not defined by their ethnicity.
    Oh, that I can see. And my parents for example are actually happy about the changes - their view is it makes the area safer and more family friendly.

    However, the reaction on here is interesting (and this is not aimed at you). People react as though the SS are on the march again. Do you really think poor people feel comfortable talking about their concerns on this in public? Absolutely not, they will just do their talking in the secrecy of the voting booth.
    I think you are underestimating 'poor people'. Most of the racists I have encountered are very middle class.
    Having grown up very poor, I don't think so. I'm well aware there are plenty of racists. Having a black wife brings it home.

    But you miss my point deliberately or not. There are plenty of wealthy white people living in very nice white enclaves who are very happy at slapping down poorer neighbourhoods that have been transformed by immigration. And it's because they don't live with the consequences.

    Let's turn Hampstead Heath into a big refugee hostel. It's got the space to house thousands, possibly more. Don't mention the 1871 Act because that can be overturned. Let's do it

    And then let's see the reaction from the usually so-liberal types.
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 33,148

    Cookie said:

    DougSeal said:

    MJW said:

    Yes. The weirdest thing about the 'culture wars' is that the Tories seem to be repeating the mistakes of those they claim to oppose. There are some fair and reasonable criticisms of what gets called 'wokeness' - basically ultra progressive stances that won't brook dissent. But if you're constantly wanging on about it, lumping in any attitude to the left of Genghis Khan with it and deliberately doing stuff designed to 'own the libs' you look deeply weird and are as irritating if not more as those who hectored from the other side in the first place. I think paradoxically, you win culture wars by defusing them as makes the other side look like the mad extremists while the public, who largely want to get on with life in peace, side with those who seem more reasonable. Sunak's big asset was supposed to be pouring oil on troubled waters, but he's so weak at running his party has basically been led into inflaming matters by promoting or re-promoting some of the most gleefully obnoxious of his party's MPs.

    You saw it today, Rishi wading into a book being re-published: how wokeness is destroying the planet. FFS the NHS is on its knees and half the country is on strike. It is pathetic.

    If the next election gets rid of this rubbish I will be thankful. Trans people don't scare me, they don't impact my life whatsoever. Apparently I can't say anything anymore, I still say what I want and am not in jail yet. They are totally on another planet.
    Maybe because what you want to say matches the prevailing ‘correct’ speech? Look at the fuss about Forbes today. She is entitled to her view about gay marriage. And yet people are decrying it. Certain views and expressions become the only accepted view. Take the phrase ‘coloured people’ vs ‘people of colour’. One of those is allowed, one isn’t. Who decides this shit? And when an older person gets it ‘wrong’ they are publicly castigated.
    I believe in politeness, treating people with respect and don’t be a dick. Too much of this is extreme wokeists being a dick. But then the right should try not to get sucked in quite so much.
    Same sort of thing with immigration.

    Go to most inner-city districts in Manchester for example and they have gone from mainly white 30 years ago to very non-white. The few white people left feel like they are swamped but, if they say that, they are racist.

    Yet if you go to the places where the people who call them racist live (Didsbury / West Didsbury, Hale, Cheadle etc to continue the Manchester vibe), they are so white you have to wear sunglasses. No mixed couples - all white. No mixed kids - all white.

    To people living in those districts, talk of being swamped makes no sense because they don't see in their home lives. Sure, they've got the 'cool' Black guy who works in IT or Imran who is on their team but their friends, their closest contact, their families - all white.
    That is absolute rubbish. I lived in central London for 20 years and was as happy to call a racist a racist then as now.
    Mmmm, not sure you grasped my point. If you are wealthy, you don't have to worry about immigration.

    I've always thought it would be a great experiment to see if the burghers of Hampstead would be so tolerant of immigration if 30% of the housing stock was compulsory purchased and made into accommodation for refugee families.

    I'd put good money on the answer being no.
    I work with immigrants. What are you on about?
    Well, that immigration disproportionately impacts poor areas and that urban liberals im rich enclaves may feel differently if their own areas were more impacted.
    It's no use Cookie, when it comes to the subject, you will never get certain types to see this - as far as they are concerned, if you express any sort of empathy for what certain groups may be feeling, you might as well be reading Der Sturmer.
    I gave you my perspective and anecdotal evidence. Surely we can debate this without invoking the Nazis?
  • Options
    maxhmaxh Posts: 958
    FF43 said:

    DavidL said:

    People are starting to see that holding together a party of nutters, economic illiterates and fantasists and pretending that they are fit to run a government is not as straightforward as Nicola made it appear. You’d have to be a saint not to laugh.

    Or a Tory of course. The joke went sour on them a while ago.

    Yes, it's all the party's fault. Nothing at all to do with Rishi's dire programme for Government.
    Presumably you still support Liz Truss's plans?
    I support the fact that she had a plan, one that did not involve having all the fortitude and determination of a windsock. Granted, she fucked it up, and there is not much good having a plan if you're not there to implement it.
    But her plan crashed the economy. It was crap from day one.

    If it had been Labour you'd be the first here saying they are terrible
    Truss's plan (including the mini budget) was never implemented, so we'll never know whether it was crap.

    I believe that the mini budget was poorly presented and timed, but I don't think the market was responding to it in isolation. Ultimately the BOE deserves the biggest share of the blame in my opinion.

    Apart from being a duplicitous, pig-headed fantasist, I would say you are right about Liz Truss. She screwed up so spectacularly it really didn't matter if other people hid their own deficiencies in the bomb damage.
    Just to clarify, are you calling:
    a) Truss
    b) LuckyGuy* or
    c) Yourself
    a duplicitous pig-headed fantasist?

    *I suspect he at least would consider this a compliment.
  • Options
    solarflaresolarflare Posts: 3,627

    O/T We watched Die Hard for the first time ever last night (on the back of reading the Alan Rickman diaries).

    It's rather crap isn't it?

    I rather like it, but it’s of it’s time. I suggest not pursuing the sequels…
    The third one with Samuel L. Jackson is good, to be fair.
  • Options

    My question for the Scots

    Is the SNP about to enter a divisive leadership contest with similar ramifications as has occurred with the conservative party ?

    Early days and hundreds of miles away, but I wonder if it's going to be like 2016, with candidate after candidate revealed to be driving an exploding clown car?

    In which case the question is who is the TMay of the SNP?
  • Options
    WillGWillG Posts: 2,224
    Foxy said:

    Cookie said:

    DougSeal said:

    MJW said:

    Yes. The weirdest thing about the 'culture wars' is that the Tories seem to be repeating the mistakes of those they claim to oppose. There are some fair and reasonable criticisms of what gets called 'wokeness' - basically ultra progressive stances that won't brook dissent. But if you're constantly wanging on about it, lumping in any attitude to the left of Genghis Khan with it and deliberately doing stuff designed to 'own the libs' you look deeply weird and are as irritating if not more as those who hectored from the other side in the first place. I think paradoxically, you win culture wars by defusing them as makes the other side look like the mad extremists while the public, who largely want to get on with life in peace, side with those who seem more reasonable. Sunak's big asset was supposed to be pouring oil on troubled waters, but he's so weak at running his party has basically been led into inflaming matters by promoting or re-promoting some of the most gleefully obnoxious of his party's MPs.

    You saw it today, Rishi wading into a book being re-published: how wokeness is destroying the planet. FFS the NHS is on its knees and half the country is on strike. It is pathetic.

    If the next election gets rid of this rubbish I will be thankful. Trans people don't scare me, they don't impact my life whatsoever. Apparently I can't say anything anymore, I still say what I want and am not in jail yet. They are totally on another planet.
    Maybe because what you want to say matches the prevailing ‘correct’ speech? Look at the fuss about Forbes today. She is entitled to her view about gay marriage. And yet people are decrying it. Certain views and expressions become the only accepted view. Take the phrase ‘coloured people’ vs ‘people of colour’. One of those is allowed, one isn’t. Who decides this shit? And when an older person gets it ‘wrong’ they are publicly castigated.
    I believe in politeness, treating people with respect and don’t be a dick. Too much of this is extreme wokeists being a dick. But then the right should try not to get sucked in quite so much.
    Same sort of thing with immigration.

    Go to most inner-city districts in Manchester for example and they have gone from mainly white 30 years ago to very non-white. The few white people left feel like they are swamped but, if they say that, they are racist.

    Yet if you go to the places where the people who call them racist live (Didsbury / West Didsbury, Hale, Cheadle etc to continue the Manchester vibe), they are so white you have to wear sunglasses. No mixed couples - all white. No mixed kids - all white.

    To people living in those districts, talk of being swamped makes no sense because they don't see in their home lives. Sure, they've got the 'cool' Black guy who works in IT or Imran who is on their team but their friends, their closest contact, their families - all white.
    That is absolute rubbish. I lived in central London for 20 years and was as happy to call a racist a racist then as now.
    Mmmm, not sure you grasped my point. If you are wealthy, you don't have to worry about immigration.

    I've always thought it would be a great experiment to see if the burghers of Hampstead would be so tolerant of immigration if 30% of the housing stock was compulsory purchased and made into accommodation for refugee families.

    I'd put good money on the answer being no.
    I work with immigrants. What are you on about?
    Well, that immigration disproportionately impacts poor areas and that urban liberals im rich enclaves may feel differently if their own areas were more impacted.
    I think class matters more than origins.

    It is a large part of why East African Asians (like the Sunaks) integrated so well. They were English speaking middle class when they arrived, and slipped fairly seamlessly into the English upper middle class. Nobody would object to them as neighbours.

    Somali gangsters, Jamaican Yardies or English chavs would be unwelcome in Didsbury, but that is a class issue not one of colour.
    This is exactly right. People in Hampstead and Guildford look at their international neighbours and see well mannered doctors and lawyers, with high achieving academic kids. When they hear about working class people having a problem with mass immigration, they find it doesn't speak to how great their experience is and blame racism.
  • Options
    Carnyx said:

    My question for the Scots

    Is the SNP about to enter a divisive leadership contest with similar ramifications as has occurred with the conservative party ?

    Too early to say. I noted earlier (but you were out, perhaps) that we have till Friday noon for candidates to stand.
    I did miss that and in the circumstances do you expect anyone else to stand, even the unexpected ?
  • Options
    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 34,497
    @paulhutcheon: To those underwhelmed by the candidates in the SNP contest, remember Derek Mackay was in line for the job at one point
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 41,074

    Carnyx said:

    My question for the Scots

    Is the SNP about to enter a divisive leadership contest with similar ramifications as has occurred with the conservative party ?

    Too early to say. I noted earlier (but you were out, perhaps) that we have till Friday noon for candidates to stand.
    I did miss that and in the circumstances do you expect anyone else to stand, even the unexpected ?
    Why not? Today alone has changed drastically since breakfast-time.
  • Options
    EabhalEabhal Posts: 6,738

    Scott_xP said:

    @BrianSpanner1: Bloody hell.
    He was in the Parliament building.
    Well played Team Forbes.
    https://twitter.com/BrianSpanner1/status/1627782499232350209/photo/1

    Somebody will have to explain the significance of that one to me.
    Something to do with Yousaf missing a vote for gay marriage back in 2014 (explanation is attending to some sort of official business). Not sure it will go anywhere.
  • Options
    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 28,628
    In my experience poor people are concerned that their pay isn't currently paying their bills.
    And that it's getting worse.
    Many of these poor people are themselves immigrants. And many aren't.
  • Options

    Cookie said:

    DougSeal said:

    MJW said:

    Yes. The weirdest thing about the 'culture wars' is that the Tories seem to be repeating the mistakes of those they claim to oppose. There are some fair and reasonable criticisms of what gets called 'wokeness' - basically ultra progressive stances that won't brook dissent. But if you're constantly wanging on about it, lumping in any attitude to the left of Genghis Khan with it and deliberately doing stuff designed to 'own the libs' you look deeply weird and are as irritating if not more as those who hectored from the other side in the first place. I think paradoxically, you win culture wars by defusing them as makes the other side look like the mad extremists while the public, who largely want to get on with life in peace, side with those who seem more reasonable. Sunak's big asset was supposed to be pouring oil on troubled waters, but he's so weak at running his party has basically been led into inflaming matters by promoting or re-promoting some of the most gleefully obnoxious of his party's MPs.

    You saw it today, Rishi wading into a book being re-published: how wokeness is destroying the planet. FFS the NHS is on its knees and half the country is on strike. It is pathetic.

    If the next election gets rid of this rubbish I will be thankful. Trans people don't scare me, they don't impact my life whatsoever. Apparently I can't say anything anymore, I still say what I want and am not in jail yet. They are totally on another planet.
    Maybe because what you want to say matches the prevailing ‘correct’ speech? Look at the fuss about Forbes today. She is entitled to her view about gay marriage. And yet people are decrying it. Certain views and expressions become the only accepted view. Take the phrase ‘coloured people’ vs ‘people of colour’. One of those is allowed, one isn’t. Who decides this shit? And when an older person gets it ‘wrong’ they are publicly castigated.
    I believe in politeness, treating people with respect and don’t be a dick. Too much of this is extreme wokeists being a dick. But then the right should try not to get sucked in quite so much.
    Same sort of thing with immigration.

    Go to most inner-city districts in Manchester for example and they have gone from mainly white 30 years ago to very non-white. The few white people left feel like they are swamped but, if they say that, they are racist.

    Yet if you go to the places where the people who call them racist live (Didsbury / West Didsbury, Hale, Cheadle etc to continue the Manchester vibe), they are so white you have to wear sunglasses. No mixed couples - all white. No mixed kids - all white.

    To people living in those districts, talk of being swamped makes no sense because they don't see in their home lives. Sure, they've got the 'cool' Black guy who works in IT or Imran who is on their team but their friends, their closest contact, their families - all white.
    That is absolute rubbish. I lived in central London for 20 years and was as happy to call a racist a racist then as now.
    Mmmm, not sure you grasped my point. If you are wealthy, you don't have to worry about immigration.

    I've always thought it would be a great experiment to see if the burghers of Hampstead would be so tolerant of immigration if 30% of the housing stock was compulsory purchased and made into accommodation for refugee families.

    I'd put good money on the answer being no.
    I work with immigrants. What are you on about?
    Well, that immigration disproportionately impacts poor areas and that urban liberals im rich enclaves may feel differently if their own areas were more impacted.
    It's no use Cookie, when it comes to the subject, you will never get certain types to see this - as far as they are concerned, if you express any sort of empathy for what certain groups may be feeling, you might as well be reading Der Sturmer.
    I am arguing in good faith. Trying to understand.
    Believe it or not Horse I get that. You are genuinely (I think because I have never met you) a good person. What I am saying is that there are shades of grey - it is possible to have concerns about immigration and the change on your surroundings without being a raging racist who burns immigrants from their homes.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 118,215
    Eabhal said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @BrianSpanner1: Bloody hell.
    He was in the Parliament building.
    Well played Team Forbes.
    https://twitter.com/BrianSpanner1/status/1627782499232350209/photo/1

    Somebody will have to explain the significance of that one to me.
    Something to do with Yousaf missing a vote for gay marriage back in 2014 (explanation is attending to some sort of official business). Not sure it will go anywhere.
    Hardly surprising, Yousaf is Muslim, Forbes Free Church of Scotland.

    Neither are exactly known for their fullsome support for homosexual unions and marriages
  • Options
    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    My question for the Scots

    Is the SNP about to enter a divisive leadership contest with similar ramifications as has occurred with the conservative party ?

    Too early to say. I noted earlier (but you were out, perhaps) that we have till Friday noon for candidates to stand.
    I did miss that and in the circumstances do you expect anyone else to stand, even the unexpected ?
    Why not? Today alone has changed drastically since breakfast-time.
    Do you have any thoughts on who as outside of those named and those saying no I cannot think of anyone?
  • Options
    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,505
    edited February 2023

    O/T We watched Die Hard for the first time ever last night (on the back of reading the Alan Rickman diaries).

    It's rather crap isn't it?

    Well if you must watch a Christmas film in February…

    I guess it’s individual taste, but I think Die Hard is excellent. Rickman is superb.
  • Options
    EabhalEabhal Posts: 6,738
    HYUFD said:

    Eabhal said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @BrianSpanner1: Bloody hell.
    He was in the Parliament building.
    Well played Team Forbes.
    https://twitter.com/BrianSpanner1/status/1627782499232350209/photo/1

    Somebody will have to explain the significance of that one to me.
    Something to do with Yousaf missing a vote for gay marriage back in 2014 (explanation is attending to some sort of official business). Not sure it will go anywhere.
    Hardly surprising, Yousaf is Muslim, Forbes Free Church of Scotland.

    Neither are exactly known for their fullsome support for homosexual unions and marriages
    On the contrary, Yousaf is quite well known for his support of all things LGBT.
  • Options
    maxhmaxh Posts: 958

    MJW said:

    Yes. The weirdest thing about the 'culture wars' is that the Tories seem to be repeating the mistakes of those they claim to oppose. There are some fair and reasonable criticisms of what gets called 'wokeness' - basically ultra progressive stances that won't brook dissent. But if you're constantly wanging on about it, lumping in any attitude to the left of Genghis Khan with it and deliberately doing stuff designed to 'own the libs' you look deeply weird and are as irritating if not more as those who hectored from the other side in the first place. I think paradoxically, you win culture wars by defusing them as makes the other side look like the mad extremists while the public, who largely want to get on with life in peace, side with those who seem more reasonable. Sunak's big asset was supposed to be pouring oil on troubled waters, but he's so weak at running his party has basically been led into inflaming matters by promoting or re-promoting some of the most gleefully obnoxious of his party's MPs.

    You saw it today, Rishi wading into a book being re-published: how wokeness is destroying the planet. FFS the NHS is on its knees and half the country is on strike. It is pathetic.

    If the next election gets rid of this rubbish I will be thankful. Trans people don't scare me, they don't impact my life whatsoever. Apparently I can't say anything anymore, I still say what I want and am not in jail yet. They are totally on another planet.
    Maybe because what you want to say matches the prevailing ‘correct’ speech? Look at the fuss about Forbes today. She is entitled to her view about gay marriage. And yet people are decrying it. Certain views and expressions become the only accepted view. Take the phrase ‘coloured people’ vs ‘people of colour’. One of those is allowed, one isn’t. Who decides this shit? And when an older person gets it ‘wrong’ they are publicly castigated.
    I believe in politeness, treating people with respect and don’t be a dick. Too much of this is extreme wokeists being a dick. But then the right should try not to get sucked in quite so much.
    Same sort of thing with immigration.

    Go to most inner-city districts in Manchester for example and they have gone from mainly white 30 years ago to very non-white. The few white people left feel like they are swamped but, if they say that, they are racist.

    Yet if you go to the places where the people who call them racist live (Didsbury / West Didsbury, Hale, Cheadle etc to continue the Manchester vibe), they are so white you have to wear sunglasses. No mixed couples - all white. No mixed kids - all white.

    To people living in those districts, talk of being swamped makes no sense because they don't see in their home lives. Sure, they've got the 'cool' Black guy who works in IT or Imran who is on their team but their friends, their closest contact, their families - all white.
    I live in London and I’m surrounded by people of all sorts of background. I think you are dead wrong.
    Yes there was a decent study a while ago (I’ll try to dig out a link) that suggested people’s negative attitude towards those of a different ethnicity were inversely correlated with the numbers of people of a different ethnicity that they interacted with
    regularly.

    Though i think TKC’s point about the speed of change in less dynamic, footloose communities than (most parts of) London is valid.
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 41,074
    edited February 2023

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    My question for the Scots

    Is the SNP about to enter a divisive leadership contest with similar ramifications as has occurred with the conservative party ?

    Too early to say. I noted earlier (but you were out, perhaps) that we have till Friday noon for candidates to stand.
    I did miss that and in the circumstances do you expect anyone else to stand, even the unexpected ?
    Why not? Today alone has changed drastically since breakfast-time.
    Do you have any thoughts on who as outside of those named and those saying no I cannot think of anyone?
    Generally that we may [edit] see some otherwise obvious possibles reconsidering their statement that they won't stand. And one or two of the younger people.
  • Options

    Cookie said:

    DougSeal said:

    MJW said:

    Yes. The weirdest thing about the 'culture wars' is that the Tories seem to be repeating the mistakes of those they claim to oppose. There are some fair and reasonable criticisms of what gets called 'wokeness' - basically ultra progressive stances that won't brook dissent. But if you're constantly wanging on about it, lumping in any attitude to the left of Genghis Khan with it and deliberately doing stuff designed to 'own the libs' you look deeply weird and are as irritating if not more as those who hectored from the other side in the first place. I think paradoxically, you win culture wars by defusing them as makes the other side look like the mad extremists while the public, who largely want to get on with life in peace, side with those who seem more reasonable. Sunak's big asset was supposed to be pouring oil on troubled waters, but he's so weak at running his party has basically been led into inflaming matters by promoting or re-promoting some of the most gleefully obnoxious of his party's MPs.

    You saw it today, Rishi wading into a book being re-published: how wokeness is destroying the planet. FFS the NHS is on its knees and half the country is on strike. It is pathetic.

    If the next election gets rid of this rubbish I will be thankful. Trans people don't scare me, they don't impact my life whatsoever. Apparently I can't say anything anymore, I still say what I want and am not in jail yet. They are totally on another planet.
    Maybe because what you want to say matches the prevailing ‘correct’ speech? Look at the fuss about Forbes today. She is entitled to her view about gay marriage. And yet people are decrying it. Certain views and expressions become the only accepted view. Take the phrase ‘coloured people’ vs ‘people of colour’. One of those is allowed, one isn’t. Who decides this shit? And when an older person gets it ‘wrong’ they are publicly castigated.
    I believe in politeness, treating people with respect and don’t be a dick. Too much of this is extreme wokeists being a dick. But then the right should try not to get sucked in quite so much.
    Same sort of thing with immigration.

    Go to most inner-city districts in Manchester for example and they have gone from mainly white 30 years ago to very non-white. The few white people left feel like they are swamped but, if they say that, they are racist.

    Yet if you go to the places where the people who call them racist live (Didsbury / West Didsbury, Hale, Cheadle etc to continue the Manchester vibe), they are so white you have to wear sunglasses. No mixed couples - all white. No mixed kids - all white.

    To people living in those districts, talk of being swamped makes no sense because they don't see in their home lives. Sure, they've got the 'cool' Black guy who works in IT or Imran who is on their team but their friends, their closest contact, their families - all white.
    That is absolute rubbish. I lived in central London for 20 years and was as happy to call a racist a racist then as now.
    Mmmm, not sure you grasped my point. If you are wealthy, you don't have to worry about immigration.

    I've always thought it would be a great experiment to see if the burghers of Hampstead would be so tolerant of immigration if 30% of the housing stock was compulsory purchased and made into accommodation for refugee families.

    I'd put good money on the answer being no.
    I work with immigrants. What are you on about?
    Well, that immigration disproportionately impacts poor areas and that urban liberals im rich enclaves may feel differently if their own areas were more impacted.
    It's no use Cookie, when it comes to the subject, you will never get certain types to see this - as far as they are concerned, if you express any sort of empathy for what certain groups may be feeling, you might as well be reading Der Sturmer.
    I am arguing in good faith. Trying to understand.
    Believe it or not Horse I get that. You are genuinely (I think because I have never met you) a good person. What I am saying is that there are shades of grey - it is possible to have concerns about immigration and the change on your surroundings without being a raging racist who burns immigrants from their homes.
    I totally agree with that. We do now have control of immigration though and Labour policy is to maintain it.

    My fear is that this won’t be enough, certain people will continue to use immigrants as a scapegoat.

    I think there are legitimate issues with immigration and its impacts. But the solution is not “send them all home” as I’ve heard several times. We need grown up and honest solutions. Do you have any in mind?

    Thank you for your kind words. I try to be good but doubt it sometimes based on some of the replies I get. You too are a nice person which is why I am happy to converse with you.
  • Options

    MJW said:

    Yes. The weirdest thing about the 'culture wars' is that the Tories seem to be repeating the mistakes of those they claim to oppose. There are some fair and reasonable criticisms of what gets called 'wokeness' - basically ultra progressive stances that won't brook dissent. But if you're constantly wanging on about it, lumping in any attitude to the left of Genghis Khan with it and deliberately doing stuff designed to 'own the libs' you look deeply weird and are as irritating if not more as those who hectored from the other side in the first place. I think paradoxically, you win culture wars by defusing them as makes the other side look like the mad extremists while the public, who largely want to get on with life in peace, side with those who seem more reasonable. Sunak's big asset was supposed to be pouring oil on troubled waters, but he's so weak at running his party has basically been led into inflaming matters by promoting or re-promoting some of the most gleefully obnoxious of his party's MPs.

    You saw it today, Rishi wading into a book being re-published, FFS the NHS is on its knees and half the country is on strike. It is pathetic.
    Actually, the little, unimportant things can resonate. It won't win an election, but will hurt your opponent. Remember the "cones hotline" ? Tiny and pathetic, but it hurt the government.
    But it depends a lot whether the little things are going with the tide or against it. The cones hotline fed into the perception of Major as a small man with small ambitions.

    If you want a political narrative about Woke Dhal, it's what happens when a country flogs bits of itself off to the highest bidder- in this case, an American media giant. You lose control (or more accurately, you trade control for cash upfront). And part of the problem with the British model of recent decades is that we've been way too casual about doing that.
    I remember New Labour using John Major's decision to use state money to buy the Churchill archive as a stick to beat him with.
    Is that right? I thought the complaint was about paying the family for papers that probably belonged to the government anyway.
  • Options
    maxh said:

    MJW said:

    Yes. The weirdest thing about the 'culture wars' is that the Tories seem to be repeating the mistakes of those they claim to oppose. There are some fair and reasonable criticisms of what gets called 'wokeness' - basically ultra progressive stances that won't brook dissent. But if you're constantly wanging on about it, lumping in any attitude to the left of Genghis Khan with it and deliberately doing stuff designed to 'own the libs' you look deeply weird and are as irritating if not more as those who hectored from the other side in the first place. I think paradoxically, you win culture wars by defusing them as makes the other side look like the mad extremists while the public, who largely want to get on with life in peace, side with those who seem more reasonable. Sunak's big asset was supposed to be pouring oil on troubled waters, but he's so weak at running his party has basically been led into inflaming matters by promoting or re-promoting some of the most gleefully obnoxious of his party's MPs.

    You saw it today, Rishi wading into a book being re-published: how wokeness is destroying the planet. FFS the NHS is on its knees and half the country is on strike. It is pathetic.

    If the next election gets rid of this rubbish I will be thankful. Trans people don't scare me, they don't impact my life whatsoever. Apparently I can't say anything anymore, I still say what I want and am not in jail yet. They are totally on another planet.
    Maybe because what you want to say matches the prevailing ‘correct’ speech? Look at the fuss about Forbes today. She is entitled to her view about gay marriage. And yet people are decrying it. Certain views and expressions become the only accepted view. Take the phrase ‘coloured people’ vs ‘people of colour’. One of those is allowed, one isn’t. Who decides this shit? And when an older person gets it ‘wrong’ they are publicly castigated.
    I believe in politeness, treating people with respect and don’t be a dick. Too much of this is extreme wokeists being a dick. But then the right should try not to get sucked in quite so much.
    Same sort of thing with immigration.

    Go to most inner-city districts in Manchester for example and they have gone from mainly white 30 years ago to very non-white. The few white people left feel like they are swamped but, if they say that, they are racist.

    Yet if you go to the places where the people who call them racist live (Didsbury / West Didsbury, Hale, Cheadle etc to continue the Manchester vibe), they are so white you have to wear sunglasses. No mixed couples - all white. No mixed kids - all white.

    To people living in those districts, talk of being swamped makes no sense because they don't see in their home lives. Sure, they've got the 'cool' Black guy who works in IT or Imran who is on their team but their friends, their closest contact, their families - all white.
    I live in London and I’m surrounded by people of all sorts of background. I think you are dead wrong.
    Yes there was a decent study a while ago (I’ll try to dig out a link) that suggested people’s negative attitude towards those of a different ethnicity were inversely correlated with the numbers of people of a different ethnicity that they interacted with
    regularly.

    Though i think TKC’s point about the speed of change in less dynamic, footloose communities than (most parts of) London is valid.
    Yes that was valid. So how do we resolve this problem? It isn’t an easy solution. Farage and co are dishonest.

    I just don’t know how you do it. Only a certain number of immigrants to an area in a year and increasing slowly over time?

    But we used to hear about Ukrainians and Romanians taking over and having too much of their Christian influence in the community. How do you deal with that? Ukrainians seem to be “fine” now, not to be feared. And yet Farage said we should fear them, Polish people
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 41,074

    MJW said:

    Yes. The weirdest thing about the 'culture wars' is that the Tories seem to be repeating the mistakes of those they claim to oppose. There are some fair and reasonable criticisms of what gets called 'wokeness' - basically ultra progressive stances that won't brook dissent. But if you're constantly wanging on about it, lumping in any attitude to the left of Genghis Khan with it and deliberately doing stuff designed to 'own the libs' you look deeply weird and are as irritating if not more as those who hectored from the other side in the first place. I think paradoxically, you win culture wars by defusing them as makes the other side look like the mad extremists while the public, who largely want to get on with life in peace, side with those who seem more reasonable. Sunak's big asset was supposed to be pouring oil on troubled waters, but he's so weak at running his party has basically been led into inflaming matters by promoting or re-promoting some of the most gleefully obnoxious of his party's MPs.

    You saw it today, Rishi wading into a book being re-published, FFS the NHS is on its knees and half the country is on strike. It is pathetic.
    Actually, the little, unimportant things can resonate. It won't win an election, but will hurt your opponent. Remember the "cones hotline" ? Tiny and pathetic, but it hurt the government.
    But it depends a lot whether the little things are going with the tide or against it. The cones hotline fed into the perception of Major as a small man with small ambitions.

    If you want a political narrative about Woke Dhal, it's what happens when a country flogs bits of itself off to the highest bidder- in this case, an American media giant. You lose control (or more accurately, you trade control for cash upfront). And part of the problem with the British model of recent decades is that we've been way too casual about doing that.
    I remember New Labour using John Major's decision to use state money to buy the Churchill archive as a stick to beat him with.
    Is that right? I thought the complaint was about paying the family for papers that probably belonged to the government anyway.
    https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2004/sep/23/artsandhumanities.past

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/dec/30/boris-johnson-decried-purchase-churchill-papers-national-archives
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 46,007

    Foxy said:

    MJW said:

    Yes. The weirdest thing about the 'culture wars' is that the Tories seem to be repeating the mistakes of those they claim to oppose. There are some fair and reasonable criticisms of what gets called 'wokeness' - basically ultra progressive stances that won't brook dissent. But if you're constantly wanging on about it, lumping in any attitude to the left of Genghis Khan with it and deliberately doing stuff designed to 'own the libs' you look deeply weird and are as irritating if not more as those who hectored from the other side in the first place. I think paradoxically, you win culture wars by defusing them as makes the other side look like the mad extremists while the public, who largely want to get on with life in peace, side with those who seem more reasonable. Sunak's big asset was supposed to be pouring oil on troubled waters, but he's so weak at running his party has basically been led into inflaming matters by promoting or re-promoting some of the most gleefully obnoxious of his party's MPs.

    You saw it today, Rishi wading into a book being re-published: how wokeness is destroying the planet. FFS the NHS is on its knees and half the country is on strike. It is pathetic.

    If the next election gets rid of this rubbish I will be thankful. Trans people don't scare me, they don't impact my life whatsoever. Apparently I can't say anything anymore, I still say what I want and am not in jail yet. They are totally on another planet.
    I have to admit that I was earlier of the opinion "what a storm in a woke teacup", Augustus Gloop for example, is characterised by his over indulgence and as such he is f**. But later I learned the amendments were agreed between Puffin Books and the Dahl Estate and not the Great Socialist Conspiracy. Apparently raging anti-Semite as he was, Dahl was involved in his own PC related amendments during his lifetime. It's a funny old game Saint.
    Children's books are of their time. I was brought up on Biggles, Molesworth, Famous Five and Commando comics. Not really the cup of tea of my boys, who preferred Captain Underpants, Charlie Higson and some rather derivative pulp fantasy stuff. Fashions change and I was never a fan of Dahl particularly myself.

    Get kids hooked on reading, but resist temptation to force on them books that you liked as a youth.
    My particular favourites were the Jennings series by Anthony Buckeridge and "How to be Topp", as any fule kno.

    Perhaps that's why I am an advocate for comprehensive education.
    Yes, I read Jennings too, but I did find it all rather odd. I see now how boarding school is a good device to get kids off in groups having adventures away from their parents.

    I was rather confused too about Boarstall and boarding school, thinking them the same thing!

    I loved the Willard Price "Adventure" series too, but think they have probably aged very poorly too.
  • Options

    O/T We watched Die Hard for the first time ever last night (on the back of reading the Alan Rickman diaries).

    It's rather crap isn't it?

    I did wonder about the credit for Bruce Willis's hair stylist.
  • Options
    FF43FF43 Posts: 16,116

    Scott_xP said:

    Ruth Davidson @RuthDavidsonPC

    (Obviously) I'm not an in-depth student of the SNP membership, but I'm pretty sure that, with this, Kate Forbes has just set fire to her leadership campaign on the very same day as she launched it.
    https://twitter.com/RuthDavidsonPC/status/1627750276995158041

    Alexander Brown
    @AlexofBrown
    Senior member of Kate Forbes campaign says "she has fucked it" after the finance secretary said she would have voted against gay marriage

    32 seems pretty young to have blown your political career. She can't very well untalk the talk. And if her views are unacceptable now, they will be unacceptable in any future leadership election.

    Shame, in a way, as she is by all accounts a pleasant person quite capable of having reasonable personal relations, even with yoons and tories.

    Agreed. Feel somewhat similarly about Jo Swinson. So you are young and inexperienced and make a mistake, but could learn from that and go on to be a capable leader. It seems wasteful that you are told, you have blown it, and never get another chance.
  • Options
    geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,312
     
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    MJW said:

    Yes. The weirdest thing about the 'culture wars' is that the Tories seem to be repeating the mistakes of those they claim to oppose. There are some fair and reasonable criticisms of what gets called 'wokeness' - basically ultra progressive stances that won't brook dissent. But if you're constantly wanging on about it, lumping in any attitude to the left of Genghis Khan with it and deliberately doing stuff designed to 'own the libs' you look deeply weird and are as irritating if not more as those who hectored from the other side in the first place. I think paradoxically, you win culture wars by defusing them as makes the other side look like the mad extremists while the public, who largely want to get on with life in peace, side with those who seem more reasonable. Sunak's big asset was supposed to be pouring oil on troubled waters, but he's so weak at running his party has basically been led into inflaming matters by promoting or re-promoting some of the most gleefully obnoxious of his party's MPs.

    You saw it today, Rishi wading into a book being re-published: how wokeness is destroying the planet. FFS the NHS is on its knees and half the country is on strike. It is pathetic.

    If the next election gets rid of this rubbish I will be thankful. Trans people don't scare me, they don't impact my life whatsoever. Apparently I can't say anything anymore, I still say what I want and am not in jail yet. They are totally on another planet.
    I have to admit that I was earlier of the opinion "what a storm in a woke teacup", Augustus Gloop for example, is characterised by his over indulgence and as such he is f**. But later I learned the amendments were agreed between Puffin Books and the Dahl Estate and not the Great Socialist Conspiracy. Apparently raging anti-Semite as he was, Dahl was involved in his own PC related amendments during his lifetime. It's a funny old game Saint.
    Children's books are of their time. I was brought up on Biggles, Molesworth, Famous Five and Commando comics. Not really the cup of tea of my boys, who preferred Captain Underpants, Charlie Higson and some rather derivative pulp fantasy stuff. Fashions change and I was never a fan of Dahl particularly myself.

    Get kids hooked on reading, but resist temptation to force on them books that you liked as a youth.
    My particular favourites were the Jennings series by Anthony Buckeridge and "How to be Topp", as any fule kno.

    Perhaps that's why I am an advocate for comprehensive education.
    Yes, I read Jennings too, but I did find it all rather odd. I see now how boarding school is a good device to get kids off in groups having adventures away from their parents.

    I was rather confused too about Boarstall and boarding school, thinking them the same thing!

    I loved the Willard Price "Adventure" series too, but think they have probably aged very poorly too.
    borstal

  • Options
    https://twitter.com/bbcnews/status/1627795033582628865

    There we go, Rishi is fucking useless
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 118,215

    MJW said:

    Yes. The weirdest thing about the 'culture wars' is that the Tories seem to be repeating the mistakes of those they claim to oppose. There are some fair and reasonable criticisms of what gets called 'wokeness' - basically ultra progressive stances that won't brook dissent. But if you're constantly wanging on about it, lumping in any attitude to the left of Genghis Khan with it and deliberately doing stuff designed to 'own the libs' you look deeply weird and are as irritating if not more as those who hectored from the other side in the first place. I think paradoxically, you win culture wars by defusing them as makes the other side look like the mad extremists while the public, who largely want to get on with life in peace, side with those who seem more reasonable. Sunak's big asset was supposed to be pouring oil on troubled waters, but he's so weak at running his party has basically been led into inflaming matters by promoting or re-promoting some of the most gleefully obnoxious of his party's MPs.

    You saw it today, Rishi wading into a book being re-published, FFS the NHS is on its knees and half the country is on strike. It is pathetic.
    Actually, the little, unimportant things can resonate. It won't win an election, but will hurt your opponent. Remember the "cones hotline" ? Tiny and pathetic, but it hurt the government.
    But it depends a lot whether the little things are going with the tide or against it. The cones hotline fed into the perception of Major as a small man with small ambitions.

    If you want a political narrative about Woke Dhal, it's what happens when a country flogs bits of itself off to the highest bidder- in this case, an American media giant. You lose control (or more accurately, you trade control for cash upfront). And part of the problem with the British model of recent decades is that we've been way too casual about doing that.
    I remember New Labour using John Major's decision to use state money to buy the Churchill archive as a stick to beat him with.
    Is that right? I thought the complaint was about paying the family for papers that probably belonged to the government anyway.
    50% belonged to the state, 50% belonged to the family
  • Options
    LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 16,561

    While I was having a few days break last week, I read:

    1. Azincourt (Bernard Cornwell)
    I may be a lefty, liberal, card-carrying member of the wokerati, but I bloody love the story of Agincourt. I've loved it since I first read Shakespeare's Henry V, and saw Olivier's film; I've seen and loved Branagh's film too, been in the play (Burgundy), been to the battlefield, seen Robert Hardy talk passionately about it, played the wargame. Cornwell writes about, and from the point of view of, the archers. They were craftsmen, who knew their discipline inside out, had practiced to perfection, and used that to devastating effect. So does Cornwell: solid history, great characterisation, clear-eyed view of Henry, braids fact and fiction together with ease, gives an amazing sense of what it would have been like to stand at the bottom of that hill, tired, ill and resigned to death. Wonderful read. Recommended.

    2. The City & the City (China Mieville)
    I drifted away from SF a bit for a while in the 90s and 00s, but before and since have read very widely in the genre, under its many guises (including those mainstream authors who avoid using the term SF because they look down on it, even though it's what they're writing), and the premise of this book stands out in my recollection as being utterly unique and original. Imagine a city in mittel-Europa: down at heel, decaying and a little backward, searching for an identity and place in the modern world. Imagine another city, this one somewhat Turkic or near Eastern, thrusting forward economically as it modernises and embraces western capitalism. Now imagine that these two cities share the same streets and parks, not just culturally, but with the inhabitants of each, by a collective and individual effort of will, *never seeing the residents of their counterpart*. Set a murder mystery in those weird twin cities, bring in some secret history and fringe politics, and that's a recipe you won't find anywhere else. Mieville may not be the greatest stylist as a writer, either in SF (his many awards would indicate lots of people don't agree with me on that) or crime fiction, but frankly this is irresistible. I do have some questions, however: is Orciny a nod to Ursula Le Guin? Did he want to call it 'Between the City & the City' for added metatextualism, but it wouldn't fit? And why is it 'The City & the City', and not 'The City and the City'?

    3. The Dreamstone (C.J. Cherryh)
    A very early Cherryh book, and one I initially thought was going to be completely unlike the ones I knew - Celtic fantasy as opposed to the hard SF of the Alliance-Union, Chanur and other books. But there is a resonance and a resemblance to the Morgaine books: a sense of fading, loss, resignation, and ending. For a book so early in a career, it is incredibly accomplished; for a book so short (180pp), it is incredibly charged. If you're not into folklore and mythology, don't bother; if you are, it'll be rewarding.

    Now starting The Furys by James Hanley.

    I've loved lots of China Mieville books, but haven't read that one. Interesting that you mention Cherryh too. Fairly sure I've read a short story of their's that involves people refusing to see other people by force of will. Most of my books are in storage, though, so I can't check out what it's called.
  • Options
    TresTres Posts: 2,349
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    MJW said:

    Yes. The weirdest thing about the 'culture wars' is that the Tories seem to be repeating the mistakes of those they claim to oppose. There are some fair and reasonable criticisms of what gets called 'wokeness' - basically ultra progressive stances that won't brook dissent. But if you're constantly wanging on about it, lumping in any attitude to the left of Genghis Khan with it and deliberately doing stuff designed to 'own the libs' you look deeply weird and are as irritating if not more as those who hectored from the other side in the first place. I think paradoxically, you win culture wars by defusing them as makes the other side look like the mad extremists while the public, who largely want to get on with life in peace, side with those who seem more reasonable. Sunak's big asset was supposed to be pouring oil on troubled waters, but he's so weak at running his party has basically been led into inflaming matters by promoting or re-promoting some of the most gleefully obnoxious of his party's MPs.

    You saw it today, Rishi wading into a book being re-published: how wokeness is destroying the planet. FFS the NHS is on its knees and half the country is on strike. It is pathetic.

    If the next election gets rid of this rubbish I will be thankful. Trans people don't scare me, they don't impact my life whatsoever. Apparently I can't say anything anymore, I still say what I want and am not in jail yet. They are totally on another planet.
    I have to admit that I was earlier of the opinion "what a storm in a woke teacup", Augustus Gloop for example, is characterised by his over indulgence and as such he is f**. But later I learned the amendments were agreed between Puffin Books and the Dahl Estate and not the Great Socialist Conspiracy. Apparently raging anti-Semite as he was, Dahl was involved in his own PC related amendments during his lifetime. It's a funny old game Saint.
    Children's books are of their time. I was brought up on Biggles, Molesworth, Famous Five and Commando comics. Not really the cup of tea of my boys, who preferred Captain Underpants, Charlie Higson and some rather derivative pulp fantasy stuff. Fashions change and I was never a fan of Dahl particularly myself.

    Get kids hooked on reading, but resist temptation to force on them books that you liked as a youth.
    My particular favourites were the Jennings series by Anthony Buckeridge and "How to be Topp", as any fule kno.

    Perhaps that's why I am an advocate for comprehensive education.
    Yes, I read Jennings too, but I did find it all rather odd. I see now how boarding school is a good device to get kids off in groups having adventures away from their parents.

    I was rather confused too about Boarstall and boarding school, thinking them the same thing!

    I loved the Willard Price "Adventure" series too, but think they have probably aged very poorly too.
    stuff like the one when they went whaling was anachronistic even at the time of publication (although more readable for an 8 year old than Moby Dick!)
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 118,215
    edited February 2023
    Eabhal said:

    HYUFD said:

    Eabhal said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @BrianSpanner1: Bloody hell.
    He was in the Parliament building.
    Well played Team Forbes.
    https://twitter.com/BrianSpanner1/status/1627782499232350209/photo/1

    Somebody will have to explain the significance of that one to me.
    Something to do with Yousaf missing a vote for gay marriage back in 2014 (explanation is attending to some sort of official business). Not sure it will go anywhere.
    Hardly surprising, Yousaf is Muslim, Forbes Free Church of Scotland.

    Neither are exactly known for their fullsome support for homosexual unions and marriages
    On the contrary, Yousaf is quite well known for his support of all things LGBT.
    For public consumption maybe though seems somewhat curious he managed to miss this key 2014 Holyrood vote legalising gay marriage in Scotland if what the Forbes camp says tonight is correct.

    So of the 2 main SNP leadership contenders one outright opposes homosexual marriage, the other managed to miss the 2014 Holyrood vote legalising homosexual marriage. Yet the UK Tory, Labour and LD leaders all managed to find time to vote for homosexual marriage in England and Wales at Westminster in 2013
  • Options
    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 34,497
    @SunPolitics: PM facing Tory rebellion over Brexit fix as hopes of breakthrough fade
    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/21454463/rishi-sunak-tory-rebellion-northern-ireland-brexit-fix/
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 33,148
    tlg86 said:

    O/T We watched Die Hard for the first time ever last night (on the back of reading the Alan Rickman diaries).

    It's rather crap isn't it?

    Well if you must watch a Christmas film in February…

    I guess it’s individual taste, but I think Die Hard is excellent. Rickman is superb.
    Rickman is v. good tbf.
  • Options
    HYUFD said:

    Eabhal said:

    HYUFD said:

    Eabhal said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @BrianSpanner1: Bloody hell.
    He was in the Parliament building.
    Well played Team Forbes.
    https://twitter.com/BrianSpanner1/status/1627782499232350209/photo/1

    Somebody will have to explain the significance of that one to me.
    Something to do with Yousaf missing a vote for gay marriage back in 2014 (explanation is attending to some sort of official business). Not sure it will go anywhere.
    Hardly surprising, Yousaf is Muslim, Forbes Free Church of Scotland.

    Neither are exactly known for their fullsome support for homosexual unions and marriages
    On the contrary, Yousaf is quite well known for his support of all things LGBT.
    For public consumption maybe though seems somewhat curious he managed to miss this key 2014 Holyrood vote legalising gay marriage in Scotland if what the Forbes camp says tonight is correct
    It doesn’t bode well for the SNP that this is what they’ve got stuck on.

    Shall we bet on Labour most seats in Scotland?
  • Options
    EabhalEabhal Posts: 6,738
    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    My question for the Scots

    Is the SNP about to enter a divisive leadership contest with similar ramifications as has occurred with the conservative party ?

    Too early to say. I noted earlier (but you were out, perhaps) that we have till Friday noon for candidates to stand.
    I did miss that and in the circumstances do you expect anyone else to stand, even the unexpected ?
    Why not? Today alone has changed drastically since breakfast-time.
    Do you have any thoughts on who as outside of those named and those saying no I cannot think of anyone?
    Generally that we may [edit] see some otherwise obvious possibles reconsidering their statement that they won't stand. And one or two of the younger people.
    I only see Robertson/Swinney/Brown jumping back in if Yousaf collapses in some scandal or other. He appears to be the chosen one.

    I don't think any of the younger ones (McAllan already out /Macpherson one for the future perhaps) will touch this. Feels like Ferguson/Moyes, to reference another Scottish succession crisis.
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 36,403

    maxh said:

    Boring Starmer leading the way 😂

    How does 'Boredom You Can Afford' sound as an election slogan?
    They should just bring back the slogans Brown would have used in 2007.

    E.g.





    This one is the one that would do the best IMHO:


    Thanks for dredging these up. Not flash, just Gordon is easily my favourite political slogan of all time. So apt. Still makes me smile.
    Not going for that election was a huge mistake. We'd have avoided all this chaos.
    Oooh now, Gordon was plenty capable of
    creating his own brand of chaos, but I think he would have won.
    His majority would have been well down on 2005, perhaps no overall majority.

    Compared to 255 seats in 2010, he’d have done well. But, he would be seen to have taken a gamble and lost.

  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 41,074
    edited February 2023
    HYUFD said:

    Eabhal said:

    HYUFD said:

    Eabhal said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @BrianSpanner1: Bloody hell.
    He was in the Parliament building.
    Well played Team Forbes.
    https://twitter.com/BrianSpanner1/status/1627782499232350209/photo/1

    Somebody will have to explain the significance of that one to me.
    Something to do with Yousaf missing a vote for gay marriage back in 2014 (explanation is attending to some sort of official business). Not sure it will go anywhere.
    Hardly surprising, Yousaf is Muslim, Forbes Free Church of Scotland.

    Neither are exactly known for their fullsome support for homosexual unions and marriages
    On the contrary, Yousaf is quite well known for his support of all things LGBT.
    For public consumption maybe though seems somewhat curious he managed to miss this key 2014 Holyrood vote legalising gay marriage in Scotland if what the Forbes camp says tonight is correct
    If what a strong anti-SNP tweeter says is correct. There is no inherent evidence it came from the Forbes camp.
  • Options
    FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,161

    MJW said:

    Yes. The weirdest thing about the 'culture wars' is that the Tories seem to be repeating the mistakes of those they claim to oppose. There are some fair and reasonable criticisms of what gets called 'wokeness' - basically ultra progressive stances that won't brook dissent. But if you're constantly wanging on about it, lumping in any attitude to the left of Genghis Khan with it and deliberately doing stuff designed to 'own the libs' you look deeply weird and are as irritating if not more as those who hectored from the other side in the first place. I think paradoxically, you win culture wars by defusing them as makes the other side look like the mad extremists while the public, who largely want to get on with life in peace, side with those who seem more reasonable. Sunak's big asset was supposed to be pouring oil on troubled waters, but he's so weak at running his party has basically been led into inflaming matters by promoting or re-promoting some of the most gleefully obnoxious of his party's MPs.

    You saw it today, Rishi wading into a book being re-published, FFS the NHS is on its knees and half the country is on strike. It is pathetic.
    Actually, the little, unimportant things can resonate. It won't win an election, but will hurt your opponent. Remember the "cones hotline" ? Tiny and pathetic, but it hurt the government.
    But it depends a lot whether the little things are going with the tide or against it. The cones hotline fed into the perception of Major as a small man with small ambitions.

    If you want a political narrative about Woke Dhal, it's what happens when a country flogs bits of itself off to the highest bidder- in this case, an American media giant. You lose control (or more accurately, you trade control for cash upfront). And part of the problem with the British model of recent decades is that we've been way too casual about doing that.
    I remember New Labour using John Major's decision to use state money to buy the Churchill archive as a stick to beat him with.
    I suppose they were not keen on public ownership.
  • Options

    There must be a negative slogan we can make up about Rishi Sunak.

    Something about him being rich

    Get a life man.

    This isn't LabourList.
    Feels like it sometimes. But then you and I can remember when it felt more like ConHome.

    Plus ca change, mon vieux?
    We can, but at least we had a bit more discussion on the betting.

    You got a big position on GE2024?
    Don't have a position on anything, CR. I bet only small amounts for fun these days. I'm happily retired from serious punting. :smile:
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 46,007
    Eabhal said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    My question for the Scots

    Is the SNP about to enter a divisive leadership contest with similar ramifications as has occurred with the conservative party ?

    Too early to say. I noted earlier (but you were out, perhaps) that we have till Friday noon for candidates to stand.
    I did miss that and in the circumstances do you expect anyone else to stand, even the unexpected ?
    Why not? Today alone has changed drastically since breakfast-time.
    Do you have any thoughts on who as outside of those named and those saying no I cannot think of anyone?
    Generally that we may [edit] see some otherwise obvious possibles reconsidering their statement that they won't stand. And one or two of the younger people.
    I only see Robertson/Swinney/Brown jumping back in if Yousaf collapses in some scandal or other. He appears to be the chosen one.

    I don't think any of the younger ones (McAllan already out /Macpherson one for the future perhaps) will touch this. Feels like Ferguson/Moyes, to reference another Scottish succession crisis.
    How soon before Sturgeon is called back in to rescue the ship? By the end of the year?
This discussion has been closed.