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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » As the Number 10 tries to head off a rebellion on the immig

SystemSystem Posts: 12,214
edited January 2014 in General

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » As the Number 10 tries to head off a rebellion on the immigration bill here’s the latest YouGov polling

YouGov polling showing a divide on immigration as an iissue between country and your family
pic.twitter.com/6Wx49HUE8n

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Ukip

    Immigration :83
    Europe : 36


  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    edited January 2014
    Interesting, maybe the wording "the country" is actually subtly weighted to something the voters never really cared about in the first place. Aside from the possibility of being broken up by regional separatism, The Country just doesn't have a lot to worry about; It's at peace, nobody's trying to invade it, when it gets into wars it's by choice and they're a long way away, and basically everything is fine.

    If the economy is going OK so you don't have to worry about The Country going bankrupt, all that's left is to either say immigration, if you think that's potentially diluting The Country's precious bodily fluids, or change the subject by talking about something like healthcare that concerns the people in the country instead, and hope the pollster won't notice.
  • Mike Smithson is currently on Radio 5 Live, talking about this very topic
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    Thinking about it it feels like the "you and your family" thing prods the voter a bit as well. Why can't they just say "you"?
  • TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362
    Threads out of date.

    James Forsyth ‏@JGForsyth 10 mins
    Why David Cameron and the Tory payroll vote are abstaining on the Raab amendment http://bit.ly/Ls5YH8


  • Mike Smithson is currently on Radio 5 Live, talking about this very topic

    As a Lib Dem, a better, a polling expert, a media commentator or an immigration wallah?


    So man hats!!!
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,834
    TGOHF said:

    Ukip

    Immigration :83
    Europe : 36

    Indeed, though of course the two are related, particularly in the context of the relaxation of the rules on free movement for the countries that joined the EU in the 2007 round.

    Even on issues facing the family, UKIP voters place immigration second (while it barely measures for Libe Dems - it'd be interesting to know how the dynamic runs there; my guess would be that people identify as Lib Dems because they're not bothered about immigration rather than the other way round).

    Also notable from those figures that the three Westminster parties all have distinctive profile responses i.e. no two parties' supporters consistently list their answers the same, but that UKIP's are like the Tories on steroids i.e. whenever the Tories are top/bottom of the three, UKIP will is constantly out even further in the same direction.
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621

    UKIP's are like the Tories on steroids

    Do you think they'll end up governing California?

  • TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362
    Britain is not booming – the economy is still smaller than it was six years ago

    http://www.newstatesman.com/2014/01/britain-not-booming-economy-still-smaller-it-was-six-years-ago

    The left really have a cheek.
  • anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746
    "...as [UKIP] comes of age, it is increasingly a party of career politicians. Roughly a third of his candidates standing for the European elections are currently working in politics, as MEPs, staffers, or researchers."

    http://blogs.ft.com/westminster/2014/01/who-are-ukip-really/

  • fitalassfitalass Posts: 4,320
    Interesting last paragraph in this article.
    "However, the Mills amendment’s loss of momentum and Douglas Carswell announcing that he’s done with rebelling does suggest that the Tory party might just be beginning to move back into line ahead of the election campaign. One of the rebels organising for the Mills amendment conceded to me yesterday that the recent good economic news and the narrowing in the polls has made it harder to persuade Tory MPs to vote against the government."

    Threads out of date.

    James Forsyth ‏@JGForsyth 10 mins
    Why David Cameron and the Tory payroll vote are abstaining on the Raab amendment http://bit.ly/Ls5YH8


  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited January 2014
    These differences in polling findings dont seem to me to be as meaningful as Mike reckons, in fact I would go as far to say they are wildly misleading. It doesnt matter that people think it is more important to the country than to them personally. In fact it is to be expected

    Looking at the things rated more important to people and their families than immigration, it strikes me that one can control ones finances, health arrangements, pension, housing, and kids education, but have no control over immigration & asylum and its affects. Thats what makes it an issue that causes NOTA's to get out and vote



  • TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362
    Ross Hawkins ‏@rosschawkins 3 mins
    Labour front bench says gut instinct to vote against Raab

  • anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746
    May elections
    "[UKIP] is fielding 1,818 council candidates"

    http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/be6bfcee-88ea-11e3-bb5f-00144feab7de.html

  • TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362
    BBC Breaking News ‏@BBCBreaking 1 min
    US economy grew by 3.2% in Q4, official GDP figures show

  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983

    May elections
    "[UKIP] is fielding 1,818 council candidates"

    What a ridiculously precise figure!
  • TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362
    fitalass said:

    Interesting last paragraph in this article.
    "However, the Mills amendment’s loss of momentum and Douglas Carswell announcing that he’s done with rebelling does suggest that the Tory party might just be beginning to move back into line ahead of the election campaign. One of the rebels organising for the Mills amendment conceded to me yesterday that the recent good economic news and the narrowing in the polls has made it harder to persuade Tory MPs to vote against the government."

    Threads out of date.

    James Forsyth ‏@JGForsyth 10 mins
    Why David Cameron and the Tory payroll vote are abstaining on the Raab amendment http://bit.ly/Ls5YH8


    Well if you listened to radio 5,you would think they was civil war in the tory party ;-)

  • TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362
    norman smith ‏@BBCNormanS 2 mins
    Labour sources accuse PM of caving in to his backbenchers over europe following decision not to oppose rebel Raab motion on Immigration Bill

  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Actually a cute move from Cam.

    Now Labour has to flail around phoning Len McLuskey to decide how to vote on this amendment.

  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    I love @david_herdson's comment

    UKIP's are like the Tories on steroids

    Having spent a lot of last year on steroids that's a great description. You get this amazing feeling of confidence - that you can do anything without being be able to appreciate the full situation. You get very agressive as was noticed by some on the site last year.

    Coming off steroids is very hard and you have a planned phased reduction over a few weeks.
  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    TGOHF said:

    Actually a cute move from Cam.

    Now Labour has to flail around phoning Len McLuskey to decide how to vote on this amendment.

    Labour should abstain too and let the rebels win (I presume there are more of them than there are Lib Dems) and keep the Tories at each others' throats over this for another few months.
  • TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362
    norman smith ‏@BBCNormanS 2 mins
    Labour refuse to say whether they will vote against rebel Raab ammendment or abstain

  • PolruanPolruan Posts: 2,083
    It seems constitutionally weird for a Government to abstain from a vote on an amendment to its own legislation - supporting amendments in order to accept change, yes, but abstaining? I'm sure that people will be able to cite precedents but it's normally an opposition tactic to avoid being seen to have taken an electorally unhelpful position; for Government whose job is to, well, govern, it can't be acceptable to opt out when it gets electorally tricky, surely?
  • anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746

    norman smith ‏@BBCNormanS 2 mins
    Labour sources accuse PM of caving in to his backbenchers over europe following decision not to oppose rebel Raab motion on Immigration Bill

    ? I thought the Raab amendment was about deporting foreign criminals? That's not a "Europe" thing.
  • TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362
    TGOHF said:

    Actually a cute move from Cam.

    Now Labour has to flail around phoning Len McLuskey to decide how to vote on this amendment.

    Funny how they blame Cameron for caving in when labour haven't a clue which way to vote - lol
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,034
    Polruan said:

    It seems constitutionally weird for a Government to abstain from a vote on an amendment to its own legislation - supporting amendments in order to accept change, yes, but abstaining? I'm sure that people will be able to cite precedents but it's normally an opposition tactic to avoid being seen to have taken an electorally unhelpful position; for Government whose job is to, well, govern, it can't be acceptable to opt out when it gets electorally tricky, surely?

    A bit of a get-out clause...
    As we revealed on Twitter earlier, David Cameron and the Tory payroll vote will abstain on Dominic Raab’s amendment. Downing Street’s logic is that they are sympathetic to the amendment’s aims but believe it to be non-compliant, eg not compatible with the law, and so are barred from voting for it by the ministerial code.
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    I thought the Raab amendment was about deporting foreign criminals? That's not a "Europe" thing.

    Tough one for labour. Nobody wants to be opposing making it easier to deport foreign criminals.

    Not with 'the party of the working class' breathing down your neck
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,016
    edited January 2014
    FPT


    Life_ina_market_town said:
    The move would certainly be illegal under EU "law", but EU law in the UK only has effect as a result of primary legislation (see s. 18 of the European Union Act 2011). Remember that Factortame did not involve a deliberate attempt to ignore EC law, indeed quite the reverse. Furthermore, the case explicitly endorsed the sovereignty of Parliament. If the amendments passed tonight, the courts in this jurisdiction would be obliged to give effect to the settled will of Parliament.

    I said:
    I don't agree. The legislation in Factortame was designed to prevent Spanish fishing boats buying up all of our quota for fish under the Common Fisheries policy at the time. It was effectively contrary to the EEC law on the right to establish businesses elsewhere in the EU because Spanish companies were setting up subsidiaries here to buy the quota and then landing the fish in Spain. It was struck down by the House of Lords on the instruction of the ECJ.

    I do agree that that case made it clear that the UK Parliament remains sovereign to the extent that it is open to Parliament to repeal s2 of the ECA with the result that EU law would no longer be directly applicable. I find s18 a somewhat curious provision and it is not obvious to me what it actually adds to that proposition.

    Because Parliament can repeal by implication the Courts would have to consider whether there was an intention to repeal s2 (and presumably s18) if there was primary legislation directly contrary to EU law. My understanding is that it has been made clear that that would have to be express, especially where it was quite obvious that we remained a part of the EU.

    Without an express reference to the terms of s2 I do not think that the proposed amendment restricting the access rights of Romanian and Bulgarian immigrants would be enforceable or binding on a UK Court. The court would simply infer that Parliament could not have intended to pass legislation that was contrary to EU law.
  • TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362
    Neil said:

    TGOHF said:

    Actually a cute move from Cam.

    Now Labour has to flail around phoning Len McLuskey to decide how to vote on this amendment.

    Labour should abstain too and let the rebels win (I presume there are more of them than there are Lib Dems) and keep the Tories at each others' throats over this for another few months.
    Labour should vote on what they believe and not playing silly little games on a serious subject.

  • TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362
    taffys said:

    I thought the Raab amendment was about deporting foreign criminals? That's not a "Europe" thing.

    Tough one for labour. Nobody wants to be opposing making it easier to deport foreign criminals.

    Not with 'the party of the working class' breathing down your neck

    Good post.
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    edited January 2014
    ''It seems constitutionally weird for a Government to abstain from a vote on an amendment to its own legislation''.

    I think its a legal thing. Ministers cannot support measures that can be construed as 'illegal' under the current legal framework

    There's bound to be a test case if the measures go through - and the ECHR could conceivably rule the UK law illegal.

    Therefore ministers would have backed a measure that, in some ways, would make the UK a rogue government.
  • TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362

    norman smith ‏@BBCNormanS 2 mins
    Labour sources accuse PM of caving in to his backbenchers over europe following decision not to oppose rebel Raab motion on Immigration Bill

    ? I thought the Raab amendment was about deporting foreign criminals? That's not a "Europe" thing.
    norman smith tweet.

  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983

    Neil said:

    TGOHF said:

    Actually a cute move from Cam.

    Now Labour has to flail around phoning Len McLuskey to decide how to vote on this amendment.

    Labour should abstain too and let the rebels win (I presume there are more of them than there are Lib Dems) and keep the Tories at each others' throats over this for another few months.
    Labour should vote on what they believe and not playing silly little games on a serious subject.

    Dear lord, do you know much about politicians?
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Neil said:

    May elections
    "[UKIP] is fielding 1,818 council candidates"

    What a ridiculously precise figure!
    I think it has a nice symmetry
  • TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362
    BBC Breaking News ‏@BBCBreaking 5 mins
    US economy grew by 1.9% in 2013, official figures show - in 2012 it was 2.8% http://bbc.in/LdBeZw

  • PolruanPolruan Posts: 2,083

    Neil said:

    TGOHF said:

    Actually a cute move from Cam.

    Now Labour has to flail around phoning Len McLuskey to decide how to vote on this amendment.

    Labour should abstain too and let the rebels win (I presume there are more of them than there are Lib Dems) and keep the Tories at each others' throats over this for another few months.
    Labour should vote on what they believe and not playing silly little games on a serious subject.

    The normal approach (from 18th century if not earlier) would be to either abstain, or support the amendment - the line would be something like "if the elected Government, with access to all the facts, is not prepared to intervene in support of its own legislative programme, then it must be aware of some defect in its proposal. As we are not party to the facts it would be irresponsible for us to take the role that the Government would be expect to play, and we call on the Hon. Members to allow the Bill to fall so that it can be redrafted and then brought back to this House after it has been given the proper scrutiny that such an important matter deserves."

    Fairly vacuous but totally standard. Loosely stolen from one of the debates in Trollope's Palliser novels, on disestablishment IIRC. Nothing's changed since then.
  • fitalassfitalass Posts: 4,320
    And if that civil war in the Conservative party doesn't materialise in the coming months as we head towards the GE.... :) Worth catching that Spectator comment from Fraser Nelson and the podcast he took part in with Douglas Carswell linked to last night. This morning some journalists were reporting this as Cameron caving into his backbenchers, now its looking rather more like a clever move to wrong foot his opponents. :)

    fitalass said:

    Interesting last paragraph in this article.
    "However, the Mills amendment’s loss of momentum and Douglas Carswell announcing that he’s done with rebelling does suggest that the Tory party might just be beginning to move back into line ahead of the election campaign. One of the rebels organising for the Mills amendment conceded to me yesterday that the recent good economic news and the narrowing in the polls has made it harder to persuade Tory MPs to vote against the government."

    Threads out of date.

    James Forsyth ‏@JGForsyth 10 mins
    Why David Cameron and the Tory payroll vote are abstaining on the Raab amendment http://bit.ly/Ls5YH8


    Well if you listened to radio 5,you would think they was civil war in the tory party ;-)

  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    taffys said:

    I thought the Raab amendment was about deporting foreign criminals? That's not a "Europe" thing.

    Tough one for labour. Nobody wants to be opposing making it easier to deport foreign criminals.

    Not with 'the party of the working class' breathing down your neck

    I wonder if Cameron knew that when he decided to abstain?

    *innocent face*
  • Looking at the actual content of Dominc Raab's amendment, rather than party-political shenanigans, it does seem extraordinary that anyone could oppose it.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,962
    F1: Red Bull done for the day. That's 13 total laps in the first three days. Hamilton managed more on day one, and that was curtailed when the front of his car fell off and his brakes failed to work.

    Suggestions it's ERS. Unlike KERS, losing ERS will cost you a vast amount of lap time. It's circa tenfold the power of KERS.
  • Blue_rogBlue_rog Posts: 2,019

    I love @david_herdson's comment

    UKIP's are like the Tories on steroids

    Having spent a lot of last year on steroids that's a great description. You get this amazing feeling of confidence - that you can do anything without being be able to appreciate the full situation. You get very agressive as was noticed by some on the site last year.

    Coming off steroids is very hard and you have a planned phased reduction over a few weeks.

    Gosh I never thought of you as a beefed up muscle pumper! You learn something new every day :-)
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    If labour oppose the Raab amendment UKIP have their pamphlet headline for Wythenshaw, without even trying.
  • anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746
    Blue_rog said:

    I love @david_herdson's comment

    UKIP's are like the Tories on steroids

    Having spent a lot of last year on steroids that's a great description. You get this amazing feeling of confidence - that you can do anything without being be able to appreciate the full situation. You get very agressive as was noticed by some on the site last year.

    Coming off steroids is very hard and you have a planned phased reduction over a few weeks.

    Gosh I never thought of you as a beefed up muscle pumper! You learn something new every day :-)
    He's just a very devout Bieber-fan.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-2545738/Justin-Biebers-recent-antics-caused-growing-dependence-steroids-commonly-used-horses.html
  • DavidL said:

    Without an express reference to the terms of s2 I do not think that the proposed amendment restricting the access rights of Romanian and Bulgarian immigrants would be enforceable or binding on a UK Court. The court would simply infer that Parliament could not have intended to pass legislation that was contrary to EU law

    Amendment (a) to new clause 1 is as follows:
    Line 2, after ‘shall’, insert ‘, notwithstanding the provisions of the European Communities Act 1972, be reinstated from the date that Royal Assent is signified to this Act and shall’.
    The amendment doesn't have the same sponsors as new clause 1, but would surely be adopted if the clause were read a second time.

    As for Factortame, my point was that while the Merchant Shipping Act 1988 was contrary to EC law, it was not intended to be. The argument can then be made that by passing the 1988 Act, Parliament didn't intend to stop community law having direct effect by virtue of s. 2 of the 1972 Act, and that an interim injunction could be granted against the enforcement of the provisions of the 1988 Act. The current amendments however are expressly intended to disapply EU law.

    As for s. 18 of the 2011 Act, it is a dog's breakfast!
  • Which wise man said the Conservative Party have but two states-of-mind – complacency and panic ? So the rebels have stopped panicking and are now complacent on the back of three days' worth of polling? Quite extraordinary a mindset. I feel for Cam having to heard these cats.
  • Blue_rog said:

    I love @david_herdson's comment

    UKIP's are like the Tories on steroids

    Having spent a lot of last year on steroids that's a great description. You get this amazing feeling of confidence - that you can do anything without being be able to appreciate the full situation. You get very agressive as was noticed by some on the site last year.

    Coming off steroids is very hard and you have a planned phased reduction over a few weeks.

    Gosh I never thought of you as a beefed up muscle pumper! You learn something new every day :-)
    Another famous blogger wrote about his experience of the He Hormone;
    http://www.nytimes.com/2000/04/02/magazine/the-he-hormone.html
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,016

    Looking at the actual content of Dominc Raab's amendment, rather than party-political shenanigans, it does seem extraordinary that anyone could oppose it.

    I would agree that Raab's amendment is in a different category than Mills but I suspect that the government's legal advice is that the Courts are required to have regard to other aspects of the ECHR before deporting than article 2 alone. How much regard is an interesting question.

  • TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362
    Neil said:

    Neil said:

    TGOHF said:

    Actually a cute move from Cam.

    Now Labour has to flail around phoning Len McLuskey to decide how to vote on this amendment.

    Labour should abstain too and let the rebels win (I presume there are more of them than there are Lib Dems) and keep the Tories at each others' throats over this for another few months.
    Labour should vote on what they believe and not playing silly little games on a serious subject.

    Dear lord, do you know much about politicians?
    Sorry about the tone but this is a important amendment to me.

  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,962
    The lesser-spotted Marussia has been seen. Looks pretty nice, actually. Seems to have a rhino nose, but it's pretty well-hidden by the paintjob.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,016

    DavidL said:

    Without an express reference to the terms of s2 I do not think that the proposed amendment restricting the access rights of Romanian and Bulgarian immigrants would be enforceable or binding on a UK Court. The court would simply infer that Parliament could not have intended to pass legislation that was contrary to EU law

    Amendment (a) to new clause 1 is as follows:
    Line 2, after ‘shall’, insert ‘, notwithstanding the provisions of the European Communities Act 1972, be reinstated from the date that Royal Assent is signified to this Act and shall’.
    The amendment doesn't have the same sponsors as new clause 1, but would surely be adopted if the clause were read a second time.

    As for Factortame, my point was that while the Merchant Shipping Act 1988 was contrary to EC law, it was not intended to be. The argument can then be made that by passing the 1988 Act, Parliament didn't intend to stop community law having direct effect by virtue of s. 2 of the 1972 Act, and that an interim injunction could be granted against the enforcement of the provisions of the 1988 Act. The current amendments however are expressly intended to disapply EU law.

    As for s. 18 of the 2011 Act, it is a dog's breakfast!

    On the last point we certainly agree!

    I was not aware of the proposed amendment to the clause. I agree that meets the Factortame test.

    I still think you are being a little generous to the motivations of those who promoted the 1988 Act though. They knew exactly what they were doing.

  • Turns out the mad schools story from last night is sheer fantasy.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-25961514
  • DavidL said:

    I would agree that Raab's amendment is in a different category than Mills but I suspect that the government's legal advice is that the Courts are required to have regard to other aspects of the ECHR before deporting than article 2 alone. How much regard is an interesting question.

    Quite so, but my point was that I couldn't see how any sentient being could disagree with the substance of the amendment on its own merits. That it might clash with the lunacy of the ECHR's eccentric interpretation of the Convention is a political and legal problem, certainly, but we shouldn't lose sight of where the lunacy lies.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,016

    Which wise man said the Conservative Party have but two states-of-mind – complacency and panic ? So the rebels have stopped panicking and are now complacent on the back of three days' worth of polling? Quite extraordinary a mindset. I feel for Cam having to heard these cats.


    Herding them must be fairly trying. Having to actually listen (heard) to their nonsense would surely be unbearable.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    On topic

    Basically all the charts say are

    Things the State control (immigration, welfare) are more important to the country
    Things I can control (family life, pension) are more important to me

    When there is mutual control, the numbers seem to be roughly the same
  • DavidL said:

    Which wise man said the Conservative Party have but two states-of-mind – complacency and panic ? So the rebels have stopped panicking and are now complacent on the back of three days' worth of polling? Quite extraordinary a mindset. I feel for Cam having to heard these cats.


    Herding them must be fairly trying. Having to actually listen (heard) to their nonsense would surely be unbearable.
    Quite right @DavidL. It seems to me that the Tories' biggest asset is David Cameron, he may not be a winner again (in fact I think Labour will get most seats) but they would be a lot worse off without him.

  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621

    DavidL said:

    Which wise man said the Conservative Party have but two states-of-mind – complacency and panic ? So the rebels have stopped panicking and are now complacent on the back of three days' worth of polling? Quite extraordinary a mindset. I feel for Cam having to heard these cats.


    Herding them must be fairly trying. Having to actually listen (heard) to their nonsense would surely be unbearable.
    Quite right @DavidL. It seems to me that the Tories' biggest asset is David Cameron, he may not be a winner again (in fact I think Labour will get most seats) but they would be a lot worse off without him.

    Whoooosh!!
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,410

    Turns out the mad schools story from last night is sheer fantasy.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-25961514

    Let's go fly a kite
    Up to the highest height!
    Let's go fly a kite and send it soaring
    Up through the atmosphere
    Up where the air is clear
    Oh, let's go fly a kite!
  • anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746

    DavidL said:

    Which wise man said the Conservative Party have but two states-of-mind – complacency and panic ? So the rebels have stopped panicking and are now complacent on the back of three days' worth of polling? Quite extraordinary a mindset. I feel for Cam having to heard these cats.


    Herding them must be fairly trying. Having to actually listen (heard) to their nonsense would surely be unbearable.
    Quite right @DavidL. It seems to me that the Tories' biggest asset is David Cameron, he may not be a winner again (in fact I think Labour will get most seats) but they would be a lot worse off without him.

    Without him, they'd be more likely to be siding with the wishes of the voters. That's usually considered a good thing when you are dependent on voters support.

    http://yougov.co.uk/news/2014/01/27/how-tories-can-win-next-election/
  • Pulpstar said:

    Turns out the mad schools story from last night is sheer fantasy.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-25961514

    Let's go fly a kite
    Up to the highest height!
    Let's go fly a kite and send it soaring
    Up through the atmosphere
    Up where the air is clear
    Oh, let's go fly a kite!
    :) It seems someone had taken a stanley knife to this particular aviation toy prior to takeoff

  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,962
    F1: lots of texts and tweets on the BBC livefeed. Not spotted a single one in favour of Mad Bernie's Double Points Bonanza. Some interesting suggestions, though:

    Stephen, via text: If you want to close up the field and stop a run away winner then all drivers should carry their points at a rate of about 150g per point, which would mean those with less points would be lighter therefore go faster, also points for the fastest lap by a finisher in the top ten.

    I wouldn't go for a fastest lap point, but weighted points could be interesting.
  • DavidL said:

    Which wise man said the Conservative Party have but two states-of-mind – complacency and panic ? So the rebels have stopped panicking and are now complacent on the back of three days' worth of polling? Quite extraordinary a mindset. I feel for Cam having to heard these cats.


    Herding them must be fairly trying. Having to actually listen (heard) to their nonsense would surely be unbearable.
    Quite right @DavidL. It seems to me that the Tories' biggest asset is David Cameron, he may not be a winner again (in fact I think Labour will get most seats) but they would be a lot worse off without him.

    Without him, they'd be more likely to be siding with the wishes of the voters. That's usually considered a good thing when you are dependent on voters support.

    http://yougov.co.uk/news/2014/01/27/how-tories-can-win-next-election/
    I would say they are nearer the wishes of voters WITH him than than they would be were the rebels running the party. The rebels represent only themselves.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,962
    Mr. Dave, is it?

    Policies matter less than might be the case. Consider Ed Balls and his 50p tax policy. Very popular. But after he made it the Labour lead narrowed.

    Why? I'd guess it reminded the electorate of several things:
    1) Labour buggered up the economy
    2) Ed Balls is shadow chancellor
    3) To paraphrase Will Smith in Men In Black, Ed Balls makes George Osborne look good

    And consider the rise of UKIP. Lots of Bloom doorstepping (much less coverage of the action against Maajid Nawaz in the Lib Dems or regarding Rufus Hound's stupid comments) and knocking of UKIP, but the party remains very popular.

    I wonder if an underlying feeling matters more than policies. Cameron comes across as an alright chap (in general). Ed Balls comes across as the kind of man space cannons are designed for. Farage is easily the winner of the pub test.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,410

    F1: lots of texts and tweets on the BBC livefeed. Not spotted a single one in favour of Mad Bernie's Double Points Bonanza. Some interesting suggestions, though:

    Stephen, via text: If you want to close up the field and stop a run away winner then all drivers should carry their points at a rate of about 150g per point, which would mean those with less points would be lighter therefore go faster, also points for the fastest lap by a finisher in the top ten.

    I wouldn't go for a fastest lap point, but weighted points could be interesting.

    Weighted points (Not sure about 150g/pt...) would make it a more exciting contest to watch certainly.

    It would narrow odds in individual races, but these are competitors at the top of their tree - F1 is supposed to be the pinnacle, not even in horse racing are there weight handicaps in the very TOP races.

    A non starter of an idea methinks.
  • TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362
    Peter Hain: one-state solution to Israeli-Palestinian conflict must be considered

    http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2014/01/peter-hain-one-state-solution-israeli-palestinian-conflict-must-be-considered

    George Eaton ‏@georgeeaton 3 mins
    Labour spokesperson tells me: "Peter Hain does not speak for Labour on foreign affairs...Labour is fully committed to a two-state solution".



  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,498
    I see Ladbrokes are offering good odds on currency union.............. 1/100 there will be one
  • Pulpstar said:

    F1: lots of texts and tweets on the BBC livefeed. Not spotted a single one in favour of Mad Bernie's Double Points Bonanza. Some interesting suggestions, though:

    Stephen, via text: If you want to close up the field and stop a run away winner then all drivers should carry their points at a rate of about 150g per point, which would mean those with less points would be lighter therefore go faster, also points for the fastest lap by a finisher in the top ten.

    I wouldn't go for a fastest lap point, but weighted points could be interesting.

    Weighted points (Not sure about 150g/pt...) would make it a more exciting contest to watch certainly.

    It would narrow odds in individual races, but these are competitors at the top of their tree - F1 is supposed to be the pinnacle, not even in horse racing are there weight handicaps in the very TOP races.

    A non starter of an idea methinks.
    Why not just give everyone the same car, dump the rubbish circuits and see who wins?

  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,962
    Mr. G, that's not the case. The bet is on the terms that Scotland will still be using the pound on a certain date (in 2015, I think). That includes, obviously, a potential currency union, but also a No victory or a transitional, brief usage of the pound, or a stopgap usage of the pound whilst negotiations are ongoing.

    Mr. Scout, the thing about the rubbish circuits is that the countries which host them tend to pay a lot (Monaco being the vast exception). It's so disappointing that the new circuits could've been fantastic but largely (Austin is a significant exception) they are not.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,016
    Thought this might be of interest in view of past discussions: http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/bills/cbill/2013-2014/0079/cbill_2013-20140079_en_2.htm#l1g1

    A bill to ban zero hours contracts to get its second reading on 28th February.

    Needs a bit of work I think. As it stands the effect of s1(2) is that everyone who is on a qualifying zero hour contract is fired the moment the Bill came into force!
  • malcolmg said:

    I see Ladbrokes are offering good odds on currency union.............. 1/100 there will be one

    MalcolmG, convinced Unionist.

  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    malcolmg said:

    I see Ladbrokes are offering good odds on currency union.............. 1/100 there will be one

    Ah the afternoon shift has arrived. The market is actually will Scotland be using the £ at the end of 2015.

    Nothing to do with currency unions.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    malcolmg said:

    I see Ladbrokes are offering good odds on currency union.............. 1/100 there will be one

    It must be more like 1/1000 that there will still be a currency union on 31 December 2015. Ladbrokes are not killing us with their generosity.
  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    malcolmg said:

    I see Ladbrokes are offering good odds on currency union.............. 1/100 there will be one

    That's what the press release says, the actual bet is for Scotland to still be using sterling before independence. 1/100 is quite the mean rate of interest for practically 2 years!

  • compouter2compouter2 Posts: 2,371
    edited January 2014
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708

    Peter Hain: one-state solution to Israeli-Palestinian conflict must be considered

    http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2014/01/peter-hain-one-state-solution-israeli-palestinian-conflict-must-be-considered

    George Eaton ‏@georgeeaton 3 mins
    Labour spokesperson tells me: "Peter Hain does not speak for Labour on foreign affairs...Labour is fully committed to a two-state solution".

    Makes sense, there's a point at which it's no longer realistic to evict the Israeli settlers. So what are they going to do, run an apartheid state forever?
  • compouter2compouter2 Posts: 2,371
    http://www.politicshome.com/uk/story/40037/

    Show me the cave in.....Show me the cave in!
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    Show me the cave in.....Show me the cave in!

    How do you think labour should handle this C2, looks like they could use any help they can get....
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Now if Shadsy's bet was

    "Assuming a yes vote, will the rUk govt agree to a binding currency union by 2020 with fiscal transfers between the entities and shared credit risks ?" at 50/1 with bets refunded in event of a no vote then well I might have a dabble...

  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    http://www.politicshome.com/uk/story/40037/

    Show me the cave in.....Show me the cave in!

    Which way are Labour voting ?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,410
    I think Ed's best move is to abstain the amendment
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    edited January 2014
    Pulpstar said:

    I think Ed's best move is to abstain the amendment

    Better call Saul Len..


  • PolruanPolruan Posts: 2,083

    Peter Hain: one-state solution to Israeli-Palestinian conflict must be considered

    http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2014/01/peter-hain-one-state-solution-israeli-palestinian-conflict-must-be-considered

    George Eaton ‏@georgeeaton 3 mins
    Labour spokesperson tells me: "Peter Hain does not speak for Labour on foreign affairs...Labour is fully committed to a two-state solution".

    Makes sense, there's a point at which it's no longer realistic to evict the Israeli settlers. So what are they going to do, run an apartheid state forever?

    I've lost track of the politics now... is it considered more unacceptable to push for two states because that undermines Israeli's sovereignty, or for one state because that implies a criticism of Israel's illegal settlement building?

    I guess that Labour can't be seen to go against the official US government view, but as Hain notes in his speech, there are already voices in the US acknowledging that a two-state solution will soon be impossible. So he'll probably be right in a couple of years time.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    FPT:

    If Amanda Knox is found guilty and the US refuses to extradite her, it'll be interesting to see what happens the next time the Americans attempt to extradite a suspect from Italy.
  • TGOHF said:

    Pulpstar said:

    I think Ed's best move is to abstain the amendment

    Better call Saul Len..


    What on earth are you rabbiting on about? You exist in a world of pure fantasy.
  • Ed Miliband David Cameron Ed Miliband David Cameron will never win a majority! :)
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,962
    "You exist in a world of pure fantasy. "

    Mr. Scout, please don't write such things. It's hard to resist the urge to plug my books when you do.
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    "I wonder if an underlying feeling matters more than policies."

    Yup, I think you are spot on, Mr. D., the overwhelming majority of voters don't know what policies are being put forward and would understand most of them if they did, but they do understand sentiment - they know how they feel.

    "Cameron comes across as an alright chap (in general)."

    That is probably because you live at 534ft above sea level and so suffer from long term hypoxia. To those of us with normal levels of oxygen and nutrients reaching our brains Cameron comes across as an unprincipled spiv, wholly unfit to hold a great office of state and completely incapable of leading a squad of ducklings across a fire bucket much less a great nation. I wouldn't cross the road to piss in his ear if his brain was on fire, except for the fact that there doesn't seem to be anyone better in any party.

    Farage is a bon oeuf, but not I think a PM and Miliband "is the sort of chap we used to describe at school as an utter spastic"*.

    *Quote from Rowan Atkinson.
  • GildasGildas Posts: 92
    AndyJS said:

    FPT:

    If Amanda Knox is found guilty and the US refuses to extradite her, it'll be interesting to see what happens the next time the Americans attempt to extradite a suspect from Italy.

    The US would have grounds for non-extraditing Knox simply because of Double Jeopardy, I would have thought. Shame we in the UK are not so resolute in defending our Anglo-Saxon freedoms.
  • "You exist in a world of pure fantasy. "

    Mr. Scout, please don't write such things. It's hard to resist the urge to plug my books when you do.

    Mr. Dancer! Is there such a thing as a "pure" fantasy? :)
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,962
    Of course, if Hannibal were Prime Minister he would have launched a surprise attack through the Channel Tunnel by now. Caesar, meanwhile, would probably be busy getting shagged by a commissioner.

    Alexander would probably end up doing both.
  • So the government's way of "heading off" a rebellion is to, erm, concede to it.

    Well it's one way of handling it I suppose.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,834

    F1: lots of texts and tweets on the BBC livefeed. Not spotted a single one in favour of Mad Bernie's Double Points Bonanza. Some interesting suggestions, though:

    Stephen, via text: If you want to close up the field and stop a run away winner then all drivers should carry their points at a rate of about 150g per point, which would mean those with less points would be lighter therefore go faster, also points for the fastest lap by a finisher in the top ten.

    I wouldn't go for a fastest lap point, but weighted points could be interesting.

    I was thinking about the double-points wheeze and am not as opposed to it as some. There is a precedent of sorts - albeit in reverse - in that for many years the F1 season contained races with two points levels: championship races (points) and non-championship races (no points). In a sense, having points and double-points races simply revives that tradition.

    That said, it's still artificial and would be better not done.
  • GildasGildas Posts: 92

    Peter Hain: one-state solution to Israeli-Palestinian conflict must be considered

    http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2014/01/peter-hain-one-state-solution-israeli-palestinian-conflict-must-be-considered

    George Eaton ‏@georgeeaton 3 mins
    Labour spokesperson tells me: "Peter Hain does not speak for Labour on foreign affairs...Labour is fully committed to a two-state solution".

    Makes sense, there's a point at which it's no longer realistic to evict the Israeli settlers. So what are they going to do, run an apartheid state forever?
    The intention, IIRC, is to swap territory within Israel for settler land on the West Bank. But that won't happen easily. But neither will Israel be able to remain this Afrikaner fiefdom for ever.

    The Israelis gave up Gaza; I suspect in the end they will have to yield the West Bank, in toto. It will be a hard rightwinger who does it: a warrior like Sharon.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Labour to vote AGAINST Raab amendment.

  • Gildas said:

    AndyJS said:

    FPT:

    If Amanda Knox is found guilty and the US refuses to extradite her, it'll be interesting to see what happens the next time the Americans attempt to extradite a suspect from Italy.

    The US would have grounds for non-extraditing Knox simply because of Double Jeopardy, I would have thought. Shame we in the UK are not so resolute in defending our Anglo-Saxon freedoms.
    Ah, the movie with Ashley Judd and Tommy Lee Jones, right?
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    Polruan said:

    Peter Hain: one-state solution to Israeli-Palestinian conflict must be considered

    http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2014/01/peter-hain-one-state-solution-israeli-palestinian-conflict-must-be-considered

    George Eaton ‏@georgeeaton 3 mins
    Labour spokesperson tells me: "Peter Hain does not speak for Labour on foreign affairs...Labour is fully committed to a two-state solution".

    Makes sense, there's a point at which it's no longer realistic to evict the Israeli settlers. So what are they going to do, run an apartheid state forever?

    I've lost track of the politics now... is it considered more unacceptable to push for two states because that undermines Israeli's sovereignty, or for one state because that implies a criticism of Israel's illegal settlement building?

    I guess that Labour can't be seen to go against the official US government view, but as Hain notes in his speech, there are already voices in the US acknowledging that a two-state solution will soon be impossible. So he'll probably be right in a couple of years time.
    One-state is Galloway stuff, you're supposed to pretend to think that a two-state solution is going to happen but never do anything to make it actually happen. That way Israel can control the territory and take over bits of it little by little without letting the people living in it vote to elect the government that's really in charge of them, on the grounds that it's only temporary and they'll have their own country there eventually.
  • "You exist in a world of pure fantasy. "

    Mr. Scout, please don't write such things. It's hard to resist the urge to plug my books when you do.

    Please do. I might read them!
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,962
    Mr. Herdson, too young to remember that sort of thing but I do recall hearing of it before.

    You're right this rule change is one we could do without. It's especially daft, given the enormous regulation changes this year, and the fact in 2/4 of the last years Vettel won only at the last race, and in the other 2 years he won a long, long time before that.

    It's gimmicky, artificial and unnecessary.
  • Mick_PorkMick_Pork Posts: 6,530
    edited January 2014

    Neil said:

    TGOHF said:

    Actually a cute move from Cam.

    Now Labour has to flail around phoning Len McLuskey to decide how to vote on this amendment.

    Labour should abstain too and let the rebels win (I presume there are more of them than there are Lib Dems) and keep the Tories at each others' throats over this for another few months.
    Labour should vote on what they believe and not playing silly little games on a serious subject.


    What, like the incompetent fop Cammie is doing by abstaining?

    LOL

    The Eurosceptic rebels have Cammie on the run and they certainly won't stop now.
    No amount of inept spin by CCHQ that this somehow suddenly isn't about Europe and immigration will ever hide that fact if he caves into them now by abstaining. Next it will be firm red lines and renegotiation terms as the Eurosceptic tory rebels have planned all along.


    Not a great track record of Eurosceptics in the tory party suddenly being satisfied with Cast Iron Pledges and posturing, is there?

    The only thing more stupid would be for Cameroonian spinners to try and mock little Ed if he thinks about doing the precise same thing Cammie is doing. How dumb would they look then?
  • TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362
    Radio 5 using part of mike Smithson's polling data interview in they news bulletins.

    Nice one mike ;-)
  • PolruanPolruan Posts: 2,083
    TGOHF said:

    Labour to vote AGAINST Raab amendment.

    ....but that looks almost like a principled stand.... shocking.
This discussion has been closed.