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Can anything shift the polls Sunak’s way? – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 11,015
edited February 2023 in General
imageCan anything shift the polls Sunak’s way? – politicalbetting.com

This week Sunak completed his first 100 days in Downing Street and looks pretty solid to continue there until the general election.

Read the full story here

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    I shall also take the time to remind everyone that the word "Tory" comes from an Irish word meaning "plunderer" :D
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    MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 12,415

    I shall also take the time to remind everyone that the word "Tory" comes from an Irish word meaning "plunderer" :D

    Indeed.

    Tory v Whig, Court v Country.
    The “court party” reproached their antagonists with their affinity to the fanatical conventiclers in Scotland, who were known by the name of Whigs. Scottish cattle-drovers (stereotypically radical anti-Catholic Covenanters), was the abusive term directed at those who wanted to exclude James on the grounds that he was a Catholic. Meanwhile Those who were not prepared to exclude James were labelled "Abhorrers" and later "Tories". The country party found a resemblance between the courtiers and the popish banditti in Ireland, to whom the appellation of Tory was affixed.

    The Whig Party and the Tory Party dominated British politics during the 18th century. The major difference in the two is the Tories tend to support a stronger monarchy, whereas Whigs wanted a limited monarchy and more power for Parliament.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whiggism
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    MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 12,415
    CAN ANYTHING SHIFT THE POLLS SUNAK’S WAY?

    Yes.

    For sure the Tory government under Rishi are smart enough to have war gamed this coming 24 months and know exactly what they are doing.

    They know once inflation drops rapidly to 4% as every type of economist is agreed will happen this year, this tough stance now on pay rises from the government will be hailed for achieving the exciting inflation drop, and they will be chaired around the streets in triumph as true heirs of Lady Thatcher saviours of the nation for the inflation busting toughness they have shown. So by the time the election comes there will something akin to the unstoppable vaccine bounce or falklands factor going on.

    This few months of bad polling will just be remembered as wee bit of mid term turbulence, like Lady Thatcher experienced before two huge landslide wins.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,502
    (FPT , @Cyclefree )
    Cyclefree said:

    Nigelb said:

    Cyclefree said:

    FFS!

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/jan/31/dorset-wiltshire-firefighters-accused-in-itn-news-report-over-images-of-female-crash-victims

    Parliament. The Met. Other police forces. The NHS. The Army. The London Fire Brigade.

    Now another fire service.

    Could these men just learn to behave, for crying out loud. It's not that hard.

    And if they can't could they just piss off to some remote part of the world and behave like priapic baboons with each other and leave civilised people in peace. Thanks.

    Other parts of the world have their own problems.
    This is not a headline I think acceptable, but it reflects the social reality there.

    Is non-consensual sex not rape?

    https://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/nation/2023/02/113_344628.html
    … In recent years, women's rights groups and civic activists, who claim that the existing rape law is outdated and insufficient to protect the victims, have been strongly demanding the legal definition of rape to be expanded to include non-consensual sex.

    But the idea has drawn fierce backlash from some men who believe that a consent-based definition of rape may result in an increase of false rape accusations. They view that whether the sexual activity was consensual or non-consensual will be difficult to confirm in court proceedings.

    The thorny issue was spotlighted again recently after the Ministry of Gender Equality and Family retracted a plan to review revisions to the rape law to include non-consensual sex, a few hours after it was announced…

    … Rep. Kweon Seong-dong of the ruling People Power Party (PPP) claimed that the proposed revision will only worsen gender conflicts.

    "Such a law may result in possible false rape allegations. It will be highly difficult to determine a criminal offense based only on a victim's claim," he wrote on Facebook. The lawmaker also said that state intervention over individuals' sexual activities, which are considered a private matter, should be limited to a minimum level. ..
    What the hell is non-consensual sex if it isn't rape?

    Honestly a lot of men - whether here or abroad - seem to think that women just exist to serve men, as a sort of wallpaper to men's lives and needs. As if we don't exist for real, for ourselves.

    It is very very tiresome. A lot of men really need to grow up.
    Apologies - I omitted this paragraph:
    Korea's Criminal Law defines the crime of rape as sexual activity against one's will involving "violence or intimidation." As such, in order to secure a rape conviction, prosecutors must prove that the perpetrator had used or threatened violence against the victim. Sexual assault against a victim in a vulnerable state, such as under the influence of alcohol or drugs, is seen as "quasi-rape."…

    Social attitudes have changed massively in South Korea in recent decades, but remain quite regressive in terms of women’s rights - something which is also a strong dividing line between liberal and conservative politics.
    Note that the change in the law was proposed, and rejected, by the current conservative administration. Korean liberal politicians would have enacted it.

    It’s not all that long ago that the UK was every bit as bad, as you will recall.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_in_English_law#History
    … In January 1982, the Government accepted an amendment to the Criminal Justice Bill the effect of which, if enacted, would be to compel judges to sentence men convicted of rape to imprisonment. This followed a case earlier that month in which John Allen, 33, businessman and convicted of raping a 17-year-old hitchhiker, had been fined £2,000 by Judge Bernard Richard, who alleged the victim's "contributory negligence".
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,502

    CAN ANYTHING SHIFT THE POLLS SUNAK’S WAY?

    Yes.

    For sure the Tory government under Rishi are smart enough to have war gamed this coming 24 months and know exactly what they are doing.

    They know once inflation drops rapidly to 4% as every type of economist is agreed will happen this year, this tough stance now on pay rises from the government will be hailed for achieving the exciting inflation drop, and they will be chaired around the streets in triumph as true heirs of Lady Thatcher saviours of the nation for the inflation busting toughness they have shown. So by the time the election comes there will something akin to the unstoppable vaccine bounce or falklands factor going on.

    This few months of bad polling will just be remembered as wee bit of mid term turbulence, like Lady Thatcher experienced before two huge landslide wins.

    Nice piece of parody.
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    Good morning, everyone.

    Perhaps, but it's very hard to see. Even if the Conservatives stopped trying to cannibalise themselves and the Government became decisive and competent, numerous strategic factors are against them.

    Football: pleasantly surprised both Ligue 1 bets came off. Lovely start to February, with Lille drawing and Rennes scoring thrice.
  • Options
    GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,078
    I see it’s fanfic Thursday @MoonRabbit
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    HeathenerHeathener Posts: 5,258
    "The fact is that in spite of two leader changes the polls are dire. As far as I can read it voters have got fed up with the Tories and this has the feel of a GE1997 about it – an election that saw a huge sea change in British politics."

    Yep!

    @MikeSmithson
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    HeathenerHeathener Posts: 5,258
    edited February 2023

    CAN ANYTHING SHIFT THE POLLS SUNAK’S WAY?

    Yes.

    For sure the Tory government under Rishi are smart enough to have war gamed this coming 24 months and know exactly what they are doing.

    They know once inflation drops rapidly to 4% as every type of economist is agreed will happen this year, this tough stance now on pay rises from the government will be hailed for achieving the exciting inflation drop, and they will be chaired around the streets in triumph as true heirs of Lady Thatcher saviours of the nation for the inflation busting toughness they have shown. So by the time the election comes there will something akin to the unstoppable vaccine bounce or falklands factor going on.

    This few months of bad polling will just be remembered as wee bit of mid term turbulence, like Lady Thatcher experienced before two huge landslide wins.

    One of the most self-deluded posts in the history of pb.com.

    Unless it's parody?

    Sorry.

    x
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    HeathenerHeathener Posts: 5,258
    And this quote is simply hilarious: "For sure the Tory government under Rishi are smart enough to have war gamed this coming 24 months and know exactly what they are doing. "
  • Options
    MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 12,415

    I see it’s fanfic Thursday @MoonRabbit

    But Lady Thatcher beating inflation by being tough on strikes and becoming wildly popular for it, is not fiction though is it? It’s historical fact. With two years to general election this same fact can repeat itself, can it not?
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    HeathenerHeathener Posts: 5,258

    Maybe it is not Starmer that is the problem? Perhaps the Tories are now so toxic and reviled that any opposition leader (short of a Corbyn-style nutjob) is electable.

    Perhaps the Tories biggest enemy is themselves?

    Yep.

    It's all over. Nothing is going to stop this.

    The real question is how far they will sink. I don't think they will have total Canada wipeout but if they continue as they are it's not impossible.

    I've said 100-150 Conservative seats but I'm beginning to think the lower end of that. A crushing defeat is coming.

    And anyone thinking they have 24 months is batshit crazy. The very latest they will go is October next year and even that will get ridiculed in the media. The longer this drags the worse it looks for them.
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    MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 12,415
    Heathener said:

    CAN ANYTHING SHIFT THE POLLS SUNAK’S WAY?

    Yes.

    For sure the Tory government under Rishi are smart enough to have war gamed this coming 24 months and know exactly what they are doing.

    They know once inflation drops rapidly to 4% as every type of economist is agreed will happen this year, this tough stance now on pay rises from the government will be hailed for achieving the exciting inflation drop, and they will be chaired around the streets in triumph as true heirs of Lady Thatcher saviours of the nation for the inflation busting toughness they have shown. So by the time the election comes there will something akin to the unstoppable vaccine bounce or falklands factor going on.

    This few months of bad polling will just be remembered as wee bit of mid term turbulence, like Lady Thatcher experienced before two huge landslide wins.

    One of the most self-deluded posts in the history of pb.com.

    Unless it's parody.

    Sorry.

    x
    Have you never watched Fawlty Towers, with Basil exasperated about strikes making us sick man of Europe?

    Seventies strikes perpetuated inflation, Lady Thatcher smashing strikes just like Rishi is doing, saved us from high inflation and being sick man of Europe.

    You sure inflation won’t be 4% within the year, and Tories benefitting in polls from achieving that?
  • Options
    MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 12,415

    Heathener said:

    CAN ANYTHING SHIFT THE POLLS SUNAK’S WAY?

    Yes.

    For sure the Tory government under Rishi are smart enough to have war gamed this coming 24 months and know exactly what they are doing.

    They know once inflation drops rapidly to 4% as every type of economist is agreed will happen this year, this tough stance now on pay rises from the government will be hailed for achieving the exciting inflation drop, and they will be chaired around the streets in triumph as true heirs of Lady Thatcher saviours of the nation for the inflation busting toughness they have shown. So by the time the election comes there will something akin to the unstoppable vaccine bounce or falklands factor going on.

    This few months of bad polling will just be remembered as wee bit of mid term turbulence, like Lady Thatcher experienced before two huge landslide wins.

    One of the most self-deluded posts in the history of pb.com.

    Unless it's parody.

    Sorry.

    x
    Have you never watched Fawlty Towers, with Basil exasperated about strikes making us sick man of Europe?

    Seventies strikes perpetuated inflation, Lady Thatcher smashing strikes just like Rishi is doing, saved us from high inflation and being sick man of Europe.

    You sure inflation won’t be 4% within the year, and Tories benefitting in polls from achieving that?
    Also, the Tories have protected their client vote well through tough times with triple lock.

    Tories are beginning to knock lumps out of SNP and Labour in woke wars now.

    Also Labour anti semitism is trending again, linking Jews to fascism and apartheid.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,590

    I see it’s fanfic Thursday @MoonRabbit

    But Lady Thatcher beating inflation by being tough on strikes and becoming wildly popular for it, is not fiction though is it? It’s historical fact. With two years to general election this same fact can repeat itself, can it not?
    As someone old enough to remember the early Eighties, I would say no. Maggie won the 1983 GE on a combination of the Falklands War, divided opposition between SDP and Lab, and an unelectable opposition leader.

    Polling shows widespread support for the strikers, and were inflation to halve by the year end, prices will still be going up, and workers pushing for catch up pay rises.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,181

    I see it’s fanfic Thursday @MoonRabbit

    But Lady Thatcher beating inflation by being tough on strikes and becoming wildly popular for it, is not fiction though is it? It’s historical fact. With two years to general election this same fact can repeat itself, can it not?
    Ummm…I would say that’s historical fiction. Insofar as she was popular (and I don’t think she was ever ‘wildly popular’ by the way, not in a Blair or May sense) it was not for smashing inflation. Breaking the unions in 1985, or winning the Falklands War, were what gave her her prestige.

    I would also say that I think you’ve got strikes and inflation the wrong way round. A loose monetary policy coupled with commodity spikes were the cause of inflation, which was what led to strikes due to lagging pay (hence why Heath considered monthly pay rises). If that sounds familiar…remember that it destroyed the careers of Wilson, Heath and Callaghan.
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    TimSTimS Posts: 9,577
    Foxy said:

    I see it’s fanfic Thursday @MoonRabbit

    But Lady Thatcher beating inflation by being tough on strikes and becoming wildly popular for it, is not fiction though is it? It’s historical fact. With two years to general election this same fact can repeat itself, can it not?
    As someone old enough to remember the early Eighties, I would say no. Maggie won the 1983 GE on a combination of the Falklands War, divided opposition between SDP and Lab, and an unelectable opposition leader.

    Polling shows widespread support for the strikers, and were inflation to halve by the year end, prices will still be going up, and workers pushing for catch up pay rises.
    I think she’s just enjoying writing a bit of Thursday morning horror fiction. Certainly got my skin crawling on the bus to my morning meeting in Hellerup.
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    MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 12,415
    edited February 2023

    I see it’s fanfic Thursday @MoonRabbit

    But Lady Thatcher beating inflation by being tough on strikes and becoming wildly popular for it, is not fiction though is it? It’s historical fact. With two years to general election this same fact can repeat itself, can it not?
    … .
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,181
    Foxy said:

    I see it’s fanfic Thursday @MoonRabbit

    But Lady Thatcher beating inflation by being tough on strikes and becoming wildly popular for it, is not fiction though is it? It’s historical fact. With two years to general election this same fact can repeat itself, can it not?
    As someone old enough to remember the early Eighties, I would say no. Maggie won the 1983 GE on a combination of the Falklands War, divided opposition between SDP and Lab, and an unelectable opposition leader.

    Polling shows widespread support for the strikers, and were inflation to halve by the year end, prices will still be going up, and workers pushing for catch up pay rises.
    Even if inflation comes under control (1) unless we get major deflation that’s not going to address real terms pay cuts and (2) the other problems underlying the strikes will not have gone away. How much are teacher strikes about pay and how much about chronic mismanagement and excessive workload?
  • Options
    MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 12,415
    Heathener said:

    And this quote is simply hilarious: "For sure the Tory government under Rishi are smart enough to have war gamed this coming 24 months and know exactly what they are doing. "

    Behind the scenes they are giving proven election winners lots of time and money to build a road to winning this election. Your lazy response That’s just rude complacency.
  • Options
    MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 12,415
    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    I see it’s fanfic Thursday @MoonRabbit

    But Lady Thatcher beating inflation by being tough on strikes and becoming wildly popular for it, is not fiction though is it? It’s historical fact. With two years to general election this same fact can repeat itself, can it not?
    As someone old enough to remember the early Eighties, I would say no. Maggie won the 1983 GE on a combination of the Falklands War, divided opposition between SDP and Lab, and an unelectable opposition leader.

    Polling shows widespread support for the strikers, and were inflation to halve by the year end, prices will still be going up, and workers pushing for catch up pay rises.
    Even if inflation comes under control (1) unless we get major deflation that’s not going to address real terms pay cuts and (2) the other problems underlying the strikes will not have gone away. How much are teacher strikes about pay and how much about chronic mismanagement and excessive workload?
    when it comes to voting general elections, like who cares about teacher workloads 🤷‍♀️
  • Options
    MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 12,415
    Foxy said:

    I see it’s fanfic Thursday @MoonRabbit

    But Lady Thatcher beating inflation by being tough on strikes and becoming wildly popular for it, is not fiction though is it? It’s historical fact. With two years to general election this same fact can repeat itself, can it not?
    As someone old enough to remember the early Eighties, I would say no. Maggie won the 1983 GE on a combination of the Falklands War, divided opposition between SDP and Lab, and an unelectable opposition leader.

    Polling shows widespread support for the strikers, and were inflation to halve by the year end, prices will still be going up, and workers pushing for catch up pay rises.
    “Polling shows widespread support for the strikers”

    That could swiftly shift from about now, could it not?
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,181
    edited February 2023

    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    I see it’s fanfic Thursday @MoonRabbit

    But Lady Thatcher beating inflation by being tough on strikes and becoming wildly popular for it, is not fiction though is it? It’s historical fact. With two years to general election this same fact can repeat itself, can it not?
    As someone old enough to remember the early Eighties, I would say no. Maggie won the 1983 GE on a combination of the Falklands War, divided opposition between SDP and Lab, and an unelectable opposition leader.

    Polling shows widespread support for the strikers, and were inflation to halve by the year end, prices will still be going up, and workers pushing for catch up pay rises.
    Even if inflation comes under control (1) unless we get major deflation that’s not going to address real terms pay cuts and (2) the other problems underlying the strikes will not have gone away. How much are teacher strikes about pay and how much about chronic mismanagement and excessive workload?
    when it comes to voting general elections, like who cares about teacher workloads 🤷‍♀️
    Teachers, and parents who are alarmed at a lack of teachers.

    That’s not a negligible sized group. Although Hyufd will be along shortly to claim those groups always vote Labour anyway because they live in tents. Or something.

    Also, that was an example. How many Tory voters are worried about the state of an NHS many of them rely on due to age, which is in just as bad a mess as education? Or delays in paying pensions?
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,502
    edited February 2023

    I see it’s fanfic Thursday @MoonRabbit

    But Lady Thatcher beating inflation by being tough on strikes and becoming wildly popular for it, is not fiction though is it? It’s historical fact. With two years to general election this same fact can repeat itself, can it not?
    No.
    Since it ignores a thousand other circumstances.

    I'm old enough to have voted Conservative in 1983. I won't be repeating that this time around.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,590
    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    I see it’s fanfic Thursday @MoonRabbit

    But Lady Thatcher beating inflation by being tough on strikes and becoming wildly popular for it, is not fiction though is it? It’s historical fact. With two years to general election this same fact can repeat itself, can it not?
    As someone old enough to remember the early Eighties, I would say no. Maggie won the 1983 GE on a combination of the Falklands War, divided opposition between SDP and Lab, and an unelectable opposition leader.

    Polling shows widespread support for the strikers, and were inflation to halve by the year end, prices will still be going up, and workers pushing for catch up pay rises.
    Even if inflation comes under control (1) unless we get major deflation that’s not going to address real terms pay cuts and (2) the other problems underlying the strikes will not have gone away. How much are teacher strikes about pay and how much about chronic mismanagement and excessive workload?
    True in the NHS too (and no doubt so in other areas of public service). Pay matters, but the deterioration in terms and conditions of service, in particular by covering vacant posts, are part of the reason that this month the postgraduate doctors* will vote to strike.

    *we're not supposed to call them junior doctors any more.

  • Options
    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,189
    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    I see it’s fanfic Thursday @MoonRabbit

    But Lady Thatcher beating inflation by being tough on strikes and becoming wildly popular for it, is not fiction though is it? It’s historical fact. With two years to general election this same fact can repeat itself, can it not?
    As someone old enough to remember the early Eighties, I would say no. Maggie won the 1983 GE on a combination of the Falklands War, divided opposition between SDP and Lab, and an unelectable opposition leader.

    Polling shows widespread support for the strikers, and were inflation to halve by the year end, prices will still be going up, and workers pushing for catch up pay rises.
    Even if inflation comes under control (1) unless we get major deflation that’s not going to address real terms pay cuts and (2) the other problems underlying the strikes will not have gone away. How much are teacher strikes about pay and how much about chronic mismanagement and excessive workload?
    True in the NHS too (and no doubt so in other areas of public service). Pay matters, but the deterioration in terms and conditions of service, in particular by covering vacant posts, are part of the reason that this month the postgraduate doctors* will vote to strike.

    *we're not supposed to call them junior doctors any more.

    Are not all doctors postgraduate doctors?
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,502
    .
    tlg86 said:

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    I see it’s fanfic Thursday @MoonRabbit

    But Lady Thatcher beating inflation by being tough on strikes and becoming wildly popular for it, is not fiction though is it? It’s historical fact. With two years to general election this same fact can repeat itself, can it not?
    As someone old enough to remember the early Eighties, I would say no. Maggie won the 1983 GE on a combination of the Falklands War, divided opposition between SDP and Lab, and an unelectable opposition leader.

    Polling shows widespread support for the strikers, and were inflation to halve by the year end, prices will still be going up, and workers pushing for catch up pay rises.
    Even if inflation comes under control (1) unless we get major deflation that’s not going to address real terms pay cuts and (2) the other problems underlying the strikes will not have gone away. How much are teacher strikes about pay and how much about chronic mismanagement and excessive workload?
    True in the NHS too (and no doubt so in other areas of public service). Pay matters, but the deterioration in terms and conditions of service, in particular by covering vacant posts, are part of the reason that this month the postgraduate doctors* will vote to strike.

    *we're not supposed to call them junior doctors any more.

    Are not all doctors postgraduate doctors?
    Some are post junior as well.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,590
    tlg86 said:

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    I see it’s fanfic Thursday @MoonRabbit

    But Lady Thatcher beating inflation by being tough on strikes and becoming wildly popular for it, is not fiction though is it? It’s historical fact. With two years to general election this same fact can repeat itself, can it not?
    As someone old enough to remember the early Eighties, I would say no. Maggie won the 1983 GE on a combination of the Falklands War, divided opposition between SDP and Lab, and an unelectable opposition leader.

    Polling shows widespread support for the strikers, and were inflation to halve by the year end, prices will still be going up, and workers pushing for catch up pay rises.
    Even if inflation comes under control (1) unless we get major deflation that’s not going to address real terms pay cuts and (2) the other problems underlying the strikes will not have gone away. How much are teacher strikes about pay and how much about chronic mismanagement and excessive workload?
    True in the NHS too (and no doubt so in other areas of public service). Pay matters, but the deterioration in terms and conditions of service, in particular by covering vacant posts, are part of the reason that this month the postgraduate doctors* will vote to strike.

    *we're not supposed to call them junior doctors any more.

    Are not all doctors postgraduate doctors?
    Yes, but not all are doing postgraduate training. Some of us have finished it.
  • Options
    tlg86 said:

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    I see it’s fanfic Thursday @MoonRabbit

    But Lady Thatcher beating inflation by being tough on strikes and becoming wildly popular for it, is not fiction though is it? It’s historical fact. With two years to general election this same fact can repeat itself, can it not?
    As someone old enough to remember the early Eighties, I would say no. Maggie won the 1983 GE on a combination of the Falklands War, divided opposition between SDP and Lab, and an unelectable opposition leader.

    Polling shows widespread support for the strikers, and were inflation to halve by the year end, prices will still be going up, and workers pushing for catch up pay rises.
    Even if inflation comes under control (1) unless we get major deflation that’s not going to address real terms pay cuts and (2) the other problems underlying the strikes will not have gone away. How much are teacher strikes about pay and how much about chronic mismanagement and excessive workload?
    True in the NHS too (and no doubt so in other areas of public service). Pay matters, but the deterioration in terms and conditions of service, in particular by covering vacant posts, are part of the reason that this month the postgraduate doctors* will vote to strike.

    *we're not supposed to call them junior doctors any more.

    Are not all doctors postgraduate doctors?
    Or hardly any, if postgraduate doctors is taken to mean doctors enrolled on a postgraduate degree.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,502
    The return of the ‘British disease’

    Brexit is one of the factors behind the UK’s economic underperformance
    https://www.ft.com/content/d0ddd1b9-731f-42db-b206-af5c5162d7ab
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    Heathener said:

    And this quote is simply hilarious: "For sure the Tory government under Rishi are smart enough to have war gamed this coming 24 months and know exactly what they are doing. "

    Behind the scenes they are giving proven election winners lots of time and money to build a road to winning this election. Your lazy response That’s just rude complacency.
    So the wargaming includes a careful plan to get caught out over Zahawi, and now Raab? And a thoroughly considered plan to get on the wrong side of the voters over nurses, teachers, postmen and railworkers?
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    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,590

    tlg86 said:

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    I see it’s fanfic Thursday @MoonRabbit

    But Lady Thatcher beating inflation by being tough on strikes and becoming wildly popular for it, is not fiction though is it? It’s historical fact. With two years to general election this same fact can repeat itself, can it not?
    As someone old enough to remember the early Eighties, I would say no. Maggie won the 1983 GE on a combination of the Falklands War, divided opposition between SDP and Lab, and an unelectable opposition leader.

    Polling shows widespread support for the strikers, and were inflation to halve by the year end, prices will still be going up, and workers pushing for catch up pay rises.
    Even if inflation comes under control (1) unless we get major deflation that’s not going to address real terms pay cuts and (2) the other problems underlying the strikes will not have gone away. How much are teacher strikes about pay and how much about chronic mismanagement and excessive workload?
    True in the NHS too (and no doubt so in other areas of public service). Pay matters, but the deterioration in terms and conditions of service, in particular by covering vacant posts, are part of the reason that this month the postgraduate doctors* will vote to strike.

    *we're not supposed to call them junior doctors any more.

    Are not all doctors postgraduate doctors?
    Or hardly any, if postgraduate doctors is taken to mean doctors enrolled on a postgraduate degree.
    All postgraduate medical training involves postgraduate exams and awards, but from the respective Royal College rather than from Universities.
  • Options

    I see it’s fanfic Thursday @MoonRabbit

    At least it isn't SlashFiction Thursday.
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    This is great news for HSBC.

    Plans to proscribe Iran’s Revolutionary Guard have been stalled after the Foreign Office raised concerns about keeping communication channels open with the regime.

    Suella Braverman, the home secretary, and Tom Tugendhat, the security minister, support moves to declare the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps (IRGC) a terrorist group.

    MI5 has accused Iran of plotting the assassination or kidnap of British residents on at least ten occasions last year. Last month the regime executed a British-Iranian national accused of spying.

    Sources said, however, that the Foreign Office blocked the move to proscribe the IRGC, citing the need to keep communication channels open. Officials also raised concerns about how it would be defined as a terrorist group because it was a government agency, unlike most other proscribed bodies.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/outlawing-iranian-guards-as-terrorists-is-put-on-hold-rbvnnq7zz
  • Options
    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,952
    One thing certainly jars from MoonRabbit's analysis.
    Lady Thatcher?
    I've heard her called many things. But never that in an informal setting.
  • Options
    As defences go this is quite amusing but explains why Sunak is up shit creek without a canoe.

    Dominic Raab has declared he has never sworn or shouted in a meeting after it was claimed he roared “bullshit” in response to a senior official’s briefing he disagreed with.

    As officials made further claims of poor behaviour from the deputy prime minister, his allies launched a fightback, suggesting that civil servants were trying to force him out.

    The investigation into Raab is now understood to be focusing on whether he knew the effect his behaviour was having on staff, a judgment that could be crucial to the justice secretary’s political future.

    Adam Tolley KC, who is leading the investigation into bullying claims, is attempting to decide if Raab deliberately pilloried staff or was oblivious to how his officials were reacting.


    Complainants believe that Raab knew what he was doing, saying he could “turn it off and on” at will and would behave better around people he wanted to impress. Raab denies bullying.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/dominic-raab-bullied-junior-ministers-2xzmbtjw2
  • Options
    Disestablishment is coming.

    The Archbishop of Canterbury told a group of MPs that he would rather see the Church of England lose its status as an established church than risk a global organisation fracturing over clashes on gay marriage, The Times understands.

    The Most Rev Justin Welby is said to have made the comment at a private meeting with MPs in Westminster this week.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/justin-welby-unity-on-gay-rights-is-a-priority-602rdtfgv
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,181
    edited February 2023

    As defences go this is quite amusing but explains why Sunak is up shit creek without a canoe.

    Dominic Raab has declared he has never sworn or shouted in a meeting after it was claimed he roared “bullshit” in response to a senior official’s briefing he disagreed with.

    As officials made further claims of poor behaviour from the deputy prime minister, his allies launched a fightback, suggesting that civil servants were trying to force him out.

    The investigation into Raab is now understood to be focusing on whether he knew the effect his behaviour was having on staff, a judgment that could be crucial to the justice secretary’s political future.

    Adam Tolley KC, who is leading the investigation into bullying claims, is attempting to decide if Raab deliberately pilloried staff or was oblivious to how his officials were reacting.


    Complainants believe that Raab knew what he was doing, saying he could “turn it off and on” at will and would behave better around people he wanted to impress. Raab denies bullying.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/dominic-raab-bullied-junior-ministers-2xzmbtjw2

    TBF to Raab (goes against the grain, but) in my experience of the DfE bullshit is what most civil servants seem to spout.

    This would matter less if they weren’t utterly convinced of their own wisdom and knowledge.
  • Options
    Rape and sexual offence cases are being prosecuted by junior barristers who lack expertise to deal with complicated cases, a watchdog has warned.

    Andrew Cayley KC, chief inspector of the Crown Prosecution Service, told The Times that a shortage of senior barristers available to be instructed by the state needed to be addressed. He blamed the deal that settled the barristers’ strike last year, when the government increased defence legal aid fees by 15 per cent, for the lack of barristers prepared to take CPS instructions. Cayley called on ministers to equalise the pay rates for defence and prosecution barristers.

    One senior criminal law barrister said he appeared for the defence in a rape trial at a regional crown court last week where a very junior lawyer who did not hold a “Rasso ticket” appeared for the prosecution. The so-called tickets are given by the CPS to experienced barristers who are the preferred lawyers for rape and sexual offence cases. Cayley said he had heard of “a limited number” of similar accounts.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/pay-blamed-as-rape-trials-left-to-junior-prosecutors-llbs3b30b
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,502

    ...
    Complainants believe that Raab knew what he was doing, saying he could “turn it off and on” at will and would behave better around people he wanted to impress...,

    That describes just about every bully ever, post primary school.

    The Tory MPs lining up to say "I know Dominic well, and I've never seen such behaviour" are taking the piss (or are terminally stupid).
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,590
    dixiedean said:

    One thing certainly jars from MoonRabbit's analysis.
    Lady Thatcher?
    I've heard her called many things. But never that in an informal setting.

    In her dotage she was Baroness Thatcher, not Lady Thatcher.
  • Options
    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,952
    Foxy said:

    dixiedean said:

    One thing certainly jars from MoonRabbit's analysis.
    Lady Thatcher?
    I've heard her called many things. But never that in an informal setting.

    In her dotage she was Baroness Thatcher, not Lady Thatcher.
    Indeed. It really is quite distracting.
  • Options

    As defences go this is quite amusing but explains why Sunak is up shit creek without a canoe.

    Dominic Raab has declared he has never sworn or shouted in a meeting after it was claimed he roared “bullshit” in response to a senior official’s briefing he disagreed with.

    As officials made further claims of poor behaviour from the deputy prime minister, his allies launched a fightback, suggesting that civil servants were trying to force him out.

    The investigation into Raab is now understood to be focusing on whether he knew the effect his behaviour was having on staff, a judgment that could be crucial to the justice secretary’s political future.

    Adam Tolley KC, who is leading the investigation into bullying claims, is attempting to decide if Raab deliberately pilloried staff or was oblivious to how his officials were reacting.


    Complainants believe that Raab knew what he was doing, saying he could “turn it off and on” at will and would behave better around people he wanted to impress. Raab denies bullying.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/dominic-raab-bullied-junior-ministers-2xzmbtjw2

    Hasn't Raab actually spoiled that line for them though? If he's adamant that he has never sworn or shouted, but there is evidence he has, then he's demonstrably a liar, regardless of the impact?
  • Options
    DougSealDougSeal Posts: 11,133

    CAN ANYTHING SHIFT THE POLLS SUNAK’S WAY?

    Yes.

    For sure the Tory government under Rishi are smart enough to have war gamed this coming 24 months and know exactly what they are doing.

    They know once inflation drops rapidly to 4% as every type of economist is agreed will happen this year, this tough stance now on pay rises from the government will be hailed for achieving the exciting inflation drop, and they will be chaired around the streets in triumph as true heirs of Lady Thatcher saviours of the nation for the inflation busting toughness they have shown. So by the time the election comes there will something akin to the unstoppable vaccine bounce or falklands factor going on.

    This few months of bad polling will just be remembered as wee bit of mid term turbulence, like Lady Thatcher experienced before two huge landslide wins.

    Is this sarcasm? I can’t tell these days.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,590
    Nigelb said:

    ...
    Complainants believe that Raab knew what he was doing, saying he could “turn it off and on” at will and would behave better around people he wanted to impress...,

    That describes just about every bully ever, post primary school.

    The Tory MPs lining up to say "I know Dominic well, and I've never seen such behaviour" are taking the piss (or are terminally stupid).
    I fail to see why Sunak is so keen to keep the dim and useless Raab and Braverman in post. The only reason seems to be the desire to not hand Starmer other scalps.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,256
    Nigelb said:

    CAN ANYTHING SHIFT THE POLLS SUNAK’S WAY?

    Yes.

    For sure the Tory government under Rishi are smart enough to have war gamed this coming 24 months and know exactly what they are doing.

    They know once inflation drops rapidly to 4% as every type of economist is agreed will happen this year, this tough stance now on pay rises from the government will be hailed for achieving the exciting inflation drop, and they will be chaired around the streets in triumph as true heirs of Lady Thatcher saviours of the nation for the inflation busting toughness they have shown. So by the time the election comes there will something akin to the unstoppable vaccine bounce or falklands factor going on.

    This few months of bad polling will just be remembered as wee bit of mid term turbulence, like Lady Thatcher experienced before two huge landslide wins.

    Nice piece of parody.
    She’s right on one point though; this was how it felt to be in opposition during the Thatcher years, winning every contest that came by yet seeing her win every time the GE came. Thankfully there is no reason why history should retreat itself so precisely.
  • Options
    DougSealDougSeal Posts: 11,133

    Heathener said:

    And this quote is simply hilarious: "For sure the Tory government under Rishi are smart enough to have war gamed this coming 24 months and know exactly what they are doing. "

    Behind the scenes they are giving proven election winners lots of time and money to build a road to winning this election. Your lazy response That’s just rude complacency.
    The issue with your analysis is that even if they get inflation under control the economy will be nowhere as good as 1997 when they nevertheless were shellacked and would have been with or without Blair after the events of 1992. As for “wargaming” this, what evidence is there of said planning? Where are the “proven election winners”? Johnson?
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,590
    On topic, it is always possible for the polls to shift, but it may not be in Sunaks power to shift them. It may just be "events" that shift the polls, and that shift may not necessarily be in his favour.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,502
    IanB2 said:

    Nigelb said:

    CAN ANYTHING SHIFT THE POLLS SUNAK’S WAY?

    Yes.

    For sure the Tory government under Rishi are smart enough to have war gamed this coming 24 months and know exactly what they are doing.

    They know once inflation drops rapidly to 4% as every type of economist is agreed will happen this year, this tough stance now on pay rises from the government will be hailed for achieving the exciting inflation drop, and they will be chaired around the streets in triumph as true heirs of Lady Thatcher saviours of the nation for the inflation busting toughness they have shown. So by the time the election comes there will something akin to the unstoppable vaccine bounce or falklands factor going on.

    This few months of bad polling will just be remembered as wee bit of mid term turbulence, like Lady Thatcher experienced before two huge landslide wins.

    Nice piece of parody.
    She’s right on one point though; this was how it felt to be in opposition during the Thatcher years, winning every contest that came by yet seeing her win every time the GE came. Thankfully there is no reason why history should retreat itself so precisely.
    Along with everything else, the electoral calculus has changed massively.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,181
    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    ...
    Complainants believe that Raab knew what he was doing, saying he could “turn it off and on” at will and would behave better around people he wanted to impress...,

    That describes just about every bully ever, post primary school.

    The Tory MPs lining up to say "I know Dominic well, and I've never seen such behaviour" are taking the piss (or are terminally stupid).
    I fail to see why Sunak is so keen to keep the dim and useless Raab and Braverman in post. The only reason seems to be the desire to not hand Starmer other scalps.
    It's not so much why he's keen to keep Braverman, Raab, and indeed Williamson and Zahawi. Prime Ministers hate losing ministers, as it looks weak.

    The really worrying thing is that he ever appointed them.
  • Options
    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    ...
    Complainants believe that Raab knew what he was doing, saying he could “turn it off and on” at will and would behave better around people he wanted to impress...,

    That describes just about every bully ever, post primary school.

    The Tory MPs lining up to say "I know Dominic well, and I've never seen such behaviour" are taking the piss (or are terminally stupid).
    I fail to see why Sunak is so keen to keep the dim and useless Raab and Braverman in post. The only reason seems to be the desire to not hand Starmer other scalps.
    Partly that. But also Sunak's fear that dumped ministers will act against him. And the observation that the talent pool is empty. Raab is useless, but also less useless than many of the available alternatives.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,256
    Nigelb said:

    IanB2 said:

    Nigelb said:

    CAN ANYTHING SHIFT THE POLLS SUNAK’S WAY?

    Yes.

    For sure the Tory government under Rishi are smart enough to have war gamed this coming 24 months and know exactly what they are doing.

    They know once inflation drops rapidly to 4% as every type of economist is agreed will happen this year, this tough stance now on pay rises from the government will be hailed for achieving the exciting inflation drop, and they will be chaired around the streets in triumph as true heirs of Lady Thatcher saviours of the nation for the inflation busting toughness they have shown. So by the time the election comes there will something akin to the unstoppable vaccine bounce or falklands factor going on.

    This few months of bad polling will just be remembered as wee bit of mid term turbulence, like Lady Thatcher experienced before two huge landslide wins.

    Nice piece of parody.
    She’s right on one point though; this was how it felt to be in opposition during the Thatcher years, winning every contest that came by yet seeing her win every time the GE came. Thankfully there is no reason why history should retreat itself so precisely.
    Along with everything else, the electoral calculus has changed massively.
    Oh, I don’t share her analysis.

    For one thing, despite their massive unpopularity among their enemies, which spread to many others during the midterms, the Tories back then did take care to create a stream of wins from things like selling off council houses, and the little bonanzas people got from buying underpriced privatisation shares. Who feels they are winning anything now?
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,181
    IanB2 said:

    Nigelb said:

    IanB2 said:

    Nigelb said:

    CAN ANYTHING SHIFT THE POLLS SUNAK’S WAY?

    Yes.

    For sure the Tory government under Rishi are smart enough to have war gamed this coming 24 months and know exactly what they are doing.

    They know once inflation drops rapidly to 4% as every type of economist is agreed will happen this year, this tough stance now on pay rises from the government will be hailed for achieving the exciting inflation drop, and they will be chaired around the streets in triumph as true heirs of Lady Thatcher saviours of the nation for the inflation busting toughness they have shown. So by the time the election comes there will something akin to the unstoppable vaccine bounce or falklands factor going on.

    This few months of bad polling will just be remembered as wee bit of mid term turbulence, like Lady Thatcher experienced before two huge landslide wins.

    Nice piece of parody.
    She’s right on one point though; this was how it felt to be in opposition during the Thatcher years, winning every contest that came by yet seeing her win every time the GE came. Thankfully there is no reason why history should retreat itself so precisely.
    Along with everything else, the electoral calculus has changed massively.
    Oh, I don’t share her analysis.

    For one thing, despite their massive unpopularity among their enemies, which spread to many others during the midterms, the Tories back then did take care to create a stream of wins from things like selling off council houses, and the little bonanzas people got from buying underpriced privatisation shares. Who feels they are winning anything now?
    Also, you had oil money going through, which helped a lot. No sign of a parallel now.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,721
    Answer - not really, not in a substantial way.

    The brand is tarnished, the national context is grim and getting grimmer, and if there were something simple which would lead to a significant reversal itd have been done by now.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,212

    Rape and sexual offence cases are being prosecuted by junior barristers who lack expertise to deal with complicated cases, a watchdog has warned.

    Andrew Cayley KC, chief inspector of the Crown Prosecution Service, told The Times that a shortage of senior barristers available to be instructed by the state needed to be addressed. He blamed the deal that settled the barristers’ strike last year, when the government increased defence legal aid fees by 15 per cent, for the lack of barristers prepared to take CPS instructions. Cayley called on ministers to equalise the pay rates for defence and prosecution barristers.

    One senior criminal law barrister said he appeared for the defence in a rape trial at a regional crown court last week where a very junior lawyer who did not hold a “Rasso ticket” appeared for the prosecution. The so-called tickets are given by the CPS to experienced barristers who are the preferred lawyers for rape and sexual offence cases. Cayley said he had heard of “a limited number” of similar accounts.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/pay-blamed-as-rape-trials-left-to-junior-prosecutors-llbs3b30b

    When I was working as an ad hoc, prosecuting rape cases, I was being paid roughly 2/3 of what the defence was being paid by LA. It was that bad. A trial that typically lasted 4-5 days included a preparation fee of £300 a day for a couple of days and the total fee was just about £2000 for 7-8 days work. Or, to put it another way, roughly 1 day's fee for private client work.

    I sure as hell wasn't doing it for the money. The job satisfaction, however, was immense.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,024
    Mawnin’ all

    There is no news from the Kok
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,212
    On topic I am struggling to see anything that can change the Tories' fortunes. They have had another very long stint in power, by the election it will be 14 years. Inflation is going to fall and the economic outturn will be slightly better than forecast but everyone bar pensioners is going to have suffered yet another drop in real incomes as we try to adjust to what we actually earn as a country.

    Very few are going to enjoy that process and the government will get the blame: after all it is hardly our fault that as a country we live on credit, beyond our means, selling off our assets to pay for imports and mortgaging our future income to maintain our current standard of living is it? Is it?
  • Options
    Leon said:

    Mawnin’ all

    There is no news from the Kok

    I'm sure that's not the first time you've ever said that or indeed heard that.

    #BluePill
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,024
    But this is my office for the day. So

    MmmmmBop?





  • Options
    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    The polls will turn. They did in the 90s and 00s. I suspect they will turn enough to deny Labour a majority.

    However, for that to happen Sunak will need to stop making unforced errors.
  • Options
    DavidL said:

    On topic I am struggling to see anything that can change the Tories' fortunes. They have had another very long stint in power, by the election it will be 14 years. Inflation is going to fall and the economic outturn will be slightly better than forecast but everyone bar pensioners is going to have suffered yet another drop in real incomes as we try to adjust to what we actually earn as a country.

    Very few are going to enjoy that process and the government will get the blame: after all it is hardly our fault that as a country we live on credit, beyond our means, selling off our assets to pay for imports and mortgaging our future income to maintain our current standard of living is it? Is it?

    I can see a sunlit upland for the Tories that could win them the next election.

    It would also do wonders for growth.
  • Options
    I don't think so as I think a big part of it is how the Tories themselves behave, not what they do, and the behaviour of far too many Tory MPs in Parliament is just awful.

    There seems to be no sign that will change. They can't seem to help it.
  • Options

    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    I see it’s fanfic Thursday @MoonRabbit

    But Lady Thatcher beating inflation by being tough on strikes and becoming wildly popular for it, is not fiction though is it? It’s historical fact. With two years to general election this same fact can repeat itself, can it not?
    As someone old enough to remember the early Eighties, I would say no. Maggie won the 1983 GE on a combination of the Falklands War, divided opposition between SDP and Lab, and an unelectable opposition leader.

    Polling shows widespread support for the strikers, and were inflation to halve by the year end, prices will still be going up, and workers pushing for catch up pay rises.
    Even if inflation comes under control (1) unless we get major deflation that’s not going to address real terms pay cuts and (2) the other problems underlying the strikes will not have gone away. How much are teacher strikes about pay and how much about chronic mismanagement and excessive workload?
    when it comes to voting general elections, like who cares about teacher workloads 🤷‍♀️
    Teachers, people who know teachers, parents of school age children? That's quite a lot of people.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,181

    DavidL said:

    On topic I am struggling to see anything that can change the Tories' fortunes. They have had another very long stint in power, by the election it will be 14 years. Inflation is going to fall and the economic outturn will be slightly better than forecast but everyone bar pensioners is going to have suffered yet another drop in real incomes as we try to adjust to what we actually earn as a country.

    Very few are going to enjoy that process and the government will get the blame: after all it is hardly our fault that as a country we live on credit, beyond our means, selling off our assets to pay for imports and mortgaging our future income to maintain our current standard of living is it? Is it?

    I can see a sunlit upland for the Tories that could win them the next election.

    It would also do wonders for growth.
    Does it have unicorns running round it?
  • Options

    Heathener said:

    CAN ANYTHING SHIFT THE POLLS SUNAK’S WAY?

    Yes.

    For sure the Tory government under Rishi are smart enough to have war gamed this coming 24 months and know exactly what they are doing.

    They know once inflation drops rapidly to 4% as every type of economist is agreed will happen this year, this tough stance now on pay rises from the government will be hailed for achieving the exciting inflation drop, and they will be chaired around the streets in triumph as true heirs of Lady Thatcher saviours of the nation for the inflation busting toughness they have shown. So by the time the election comes there will something akin to the unstoppable vaccine bounce or falklands factor going on.

    This few months of bad polling will just be remembered as wee bit of mid term turbulence, like Lady Thatcher experienced before two huge landslide wins.

    One of the most self-deluded posts in the history of pb.com.

    Unless it's parody.

    Sorry.

    x
    Have you never watched Fawlty Towers, with Basil exasperated about strikes making us sick man of Europe?

    Seventies strikes perpetuated inflation, Lady Thatcher smashing strikes just like Rishi is doing, saved us from high inflation and being sick man of Europe.

    You sure inflation won’t be 4% within the year, and Tories benefitting in polls from achieving that?
    The best (probably only) strategy is achieve that and get back to growth and then try a "we navigated the choppy waters, and we have a plan; don't let Labour ruin it" but I don't think it will work.

    A strategy is needed though, and I suspect something like that will be it.
  • Options
    Leon said:

    But this is my office for the day. So

    MmmmmBop?





    Is that you in the baseball cap?
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,212

    DavidL said:

    On topic I am struggling to see anything that can change the Tories' fortunes. They have had another very long stint in power, by the election it will be 14 years. Inflation is going to fall and the economic outturn will be slightly better than forecast but everyone bar pensioners is going to have suffered yet another drop in real incomes as we try to adjust to what we actually earn as a country.

    Very few are going to enjoy that process and the government will get the blame: after all it is hardly our fault that as a country we live on credit, beyond our means, selling off our assets to pay for imports and mortgaging our future income to maintain our current standard of living is it? Is it?

    I can see a sunlit upland for the Tories that could win them the next election.

    It would also do wonders for growth.
    So what pills have you been taking?
  • Options
    algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 10,516
    The article asks a question, to which the answer is yes. Whether it will happen in another question.

    The greatest chance is that by the GE the Tory polling and outcome will be quite a bit better than the wipeout currently indicated.

    Smaller chances: The wipeout currently indicated. Tories to get most seats. Tories to retain a majority.

    The greatest likelihood is somewhere between a Lab victory and and a Lab victory short of 325 seats.

    It is unlikely that anything the Tories can do will shift the polls. It will be the fear of Labour left and Labour in the hands of the SNP that will bring things back a little nearer normality.
  • Options
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,502

    Leon said:

    Mawnin’ all

    There is no news from the Kok

    I'm sure that's not the first time you've ever said that or indeed heard that.

    #BluePill
    Or the Elizabeth Arden cream is working.
  • Options
    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,883
    @MattChorley: EXCLUSIVE: Sunak's 100 days

    YouGov polling for Times Radio reveals the verdict of voters on the PM.

    First, the g… https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1621060424023298054
  • Options
    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,883
    @MattChorley: YouGov poll for Times Radio shows just 1 in 10 think Sunak will be PM after the next election

    More on your 📻 from… https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1621060430063083521
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,181
    edited February 2023
    Jonathan said:

    The polls will turn. They did in the 90s and 00s. I suspect they will turn enough to deny Labour a majority.

    However, for that to happen Sunak will need to stop making unforced errors.

    Although polls are generally more accurate now than they were in the 1990s. For example, I don't think there were any polls from Black Wednesday onwards that showed the Tories under 16 points behind, but at the general election that was 13 points. In 1992 the final polls showed Labour still comfortably ahead, and they ended up 9 points adrift. Meanwhile there were polls in 2015, 2017 and 2019 that were actually very close to the final result.
  • Options
    On topic, in theory yes, in practice almost certainly no. First the national “mood” has shifted and it’s very much settled into “chuck the buggers out”. Second, while the CPP isn’t quite yet as bad as the 1992-1997 party it’s heading that way. Third the May locals are going to be used by Labour to learn about what works in elections while the Conservatives are almost certainly going to indulge in in-fighting and a potential leadership coup. So while in theory Sunak could pull some of this back, he faces very considerable headwinds.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,502
    DavidL said:

    On topic I am struggling to see anything that can change the Tories' fortunes. They have had another very long stint in power, by the election it will be 14 years. Inflation is going to fall and the economic outturn will be slightly better than forecast but everyone bar pensioners is going to have suffered yet another drop in real incomes as we try to adjust to what we actually earn as a country.

    Very few are going to enjoy that process and the government will get the blame: after all it is hardly our fault that as a country we live on credit, beyond our means, selling off our assets to pay for imports and mortgaging our future income to maintain our current standard of living is it? Is it?

    Well someone voted for them... :smile:
  • Options
    Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 12,985

    Leon said:

    But this is my office for the day. So

    MmmmmBop?





    Is that you in the baseball cap?
    J-Roc all up in this bitch, muthafucka. Knowatimsayin?
  • Options
    Not sure the marble is going to roll towards CON again.

    Even though inflation may be back to 3% by GE time late 2024 we would have had lots of accumulated inflation which will have eroded the value of people's savings earnings and pensions. Not all pensions are fully indexed linked against CPI!
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,854

    I see it’s fanfic Thursday @MoonRabbit

    But Lady Thatcher beating inflation by being tough on strikes and becoming wildly popular for it, is not fiction though is it? It’s historical fact. With two years to general election this same fact can repeat itself, can it not?
    Certainly don't have much to beat in the empty suit Starmer, though better dull and grey than the odious crooks currently in position.
  • Options
    No. Barring a black swan the Tories are done. They have no record to run on aside from the increasingly unpopular "achievement" of Brexit. Sunak is proving disappointing but it's hard to see him getting replaced or indeed to figure out who would be doing better. Labour will probably win with a small majority, although they might fall short and equally they might do better than that.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,181
    Rubbish. The British problem is a total lack of self-awareness. Not humble bragging.

    Imagine if, for example, Fred Goodwin, Mark James, Simon Case, Amanda Spielman, Suella Braverman or Liz Truss could understand their own abilities and weaknesses properly, so they could get jobs on their intellectual and moral level. What a boon that would be to the nation.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,256
    ydoethur said:

    IanB2 said:

    Nigelb said:

    IanB2 said:

    Nigelb said:

    CAN ANYTHING SHIFT THE POLLS SUNAK’S WAY?

    Yes.

    For sure the Tory government under Rishi are smart enough to have war gamed this coming 24 months and know exactly what they are doing.

    They know once inflation drops rapidly to 4% as every type of economist is agreed will happen this year, this tough stance now on pay rises from the government will be hailed for achieving the exciting inflation drop, and they will be chaired around the streets in triumph as true heirs of Lady Thatcher saviours of the nation for the inflation busting toughness they have shown. So by the time the election comes there will something akin to the unstoppable vaccine bounce or falklands factor going on.

    This few months of bad polling will just be remembered as wee bit of mid term turbulence, like Lady Thatcher experienced before two huge landslide wins.

    Nice piece of parody.
    She’s right on one point though; this was how it felt to be in opposition during the Thatcher years, winning every contest that came by yet seeing her win every time the GE came. Thankfully there is no reason why history should retreat itself so precisely.
    Along with everything else, the electoral calculus has changed massively.
    Oh, I don’t share her analysis.

    For one thing, despite their massive unpopularity among their enemies, which spread to many others during the midterms, the Tories back then did take care to create a stream of wins from things like selling off council houses, and the little bonanzas people got from buying underpriced privatisation shares. Who feels they are winning anything now?
    Also, you had oil money going through, which helped a lot. No sign of a parallel now.
    And, now, there's a flagship policy that is demonstrably not working and is increasingly unpopular - which is more resemblant of the poll tax period than of Thatcher at her peak.
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,256
    edited February 2023

    No. Barring a black swan the Tories are done. They have no record to run on aside from the increasingly unpopular "achievement" of Brexit. Sunak is proving disappointing but it's hard to see him getting replaced or indeed to figure out who would be doing better. Labour will probably win with a small majority, although they might fall short and equally they might do better than that.

    So your prediction is that Labour might win big or might win small or might fall short and if there's a black swan the Tories might win?

    Has Leon hacked your account? ;);) He at least spreads them over several posts...
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    LeonLeon Posts: 47,024
    The Tories are so obviously heading for a terrible defeat, the more interesting and live political question is, perhaps, how Starmer’s Labour will do in Scotland

    That is much harder to call. The indyvoters provide a floor for Sturgeon… but she must be damaged by the Trans (sorry!) stuff

    If Labour - as some sub samples suggest - go well over 30% of the Scottish vote they will surely start taking quite a few seats from the Nits. That will in turn have implications for Holyrood
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,212
    Nigelb said:

    DavidL said:

    On topic I am struggling to see anything that can change the Tories' fortunes. They have had another very long stint in power, by the election it will be 14 years. Inflation is going to fall and the economic outturn will be slightly better than forecast but everyone bar pensioners is going to have suffered yet another drop in real incomes as we try to adjust to what we actually earn as a country.

    Very few are going to enjoy that process and the government will get the blame: after all it is hardly our fault that as a country we live on credit, beyond our means, selling off our assets to pay for imports and mortgaging our future income to maintain our current standard of living is it? Is it?

    Well someone voted for them... :smile:
    Yes, but that was then and this is now. And people, in my experience, are very loathe to admit their own mistakes, it is so much easier to blame someone else.
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,502
    TimS said:

    Somewhere in my darkest waking nightmares a little piece of that MoonRabbit parody timeline continues to live.

    It’s the on-edge feeling of every penultimate scene in a horror movie, when you think they’re dead.

    We still fear the final jump-scare.

    That was the case in 1997, too.
    It's what ensures turnout.
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,502
    IanB2 said:

    No. Barring a black swan the Tories are done. They have no record to run on aside from the increasingly unpopular "achievement" of Brexit. Sunak is proving disappointing but it's hard to see him getting replaced or indeed to figure out who would be doing better. Labour will probably win with a small majority, although they might fall short and equally they might do better than that.

    So your prediction is that Labour might win big or might win small or might fall short and if there's a black swan the Tories might win?

    Has Leon hacked your account? ;);) He at least spreads them over several posts...
    Easier to claim credit for a prediction that way.
    OLB is being honest about his uncertainty.
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    LeonLeon Posts: 47,024
    Dura_Ace said:

    Leon said:

    But this is my office for the day. So

    MmmmmBop?





    Is that you in the baseball cap?
    J-Roc all up in this bitch, muthafucka. Knowatimsayin?
    I believe those characters are Swedes. The hotel is full of Swedes, Brits, Aussies, and Russians. Lots of Russians
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,181
    Nigelb said:

    Good article on China from Fallows.

    Simple Things I Learned About China
    5 1/2 lessons of experience. I bet most foreigners who have lived in China would give you a similar account.
    https://fallows.substack.com/p/simple-things-i-learned-about-china

    It is interesting.

    On the same topic, you may find this of interest as well. I used to set it as reading when teaching Mao's China at A-level:

    http://www.martinjacques.com/uncategorised/civilization-state-versus-nation-state/
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    Wouldn't surprise me if the Bank only increases the rate by 0.25% to 3.75%
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    @MoonRabbit gets 9 out of 10 for that beautiful piece of wishful thinking. Our politics needs more hope in it, so its a good thing to be hopeful...

    On topic, I was hugely amused to see the latest round in the Tory strategy to attack Labour's unions. When the news is so full of scandal about Tories stealing public money or awarding prominent jobs to mates in exchange for cash, its brave to go and attack striking nurses whose union Is Not Affiliated To Labour.

    In essence the Tories think the public are stupid and are prepared to exploit that stupidity. Except that despite the endless "news" from the Tory media, the public have seen straight through it.

    The Conservative Party is openly and shamelessly corrupt. Shilling to get them reelected so that more of our money can be stolen by their spivvy patrons is a thankless task.
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    Nigelb said:

    Good article on China from Fallows.

    Simple Things I Learned About China
    5 1/2 lessons of experience. I bet most foreigners who have lived in China would give you a similar account.
    https://fallows.substack.com/p/simple-things-i-learned-about-china

    Cheers Nigel. Really interesting.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,181

    Wouldn't surprise me if the Bank only increases the rate by 0.25% to 3.75%

    I've just given up being surprised at what the Bank of England does.
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    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,854
    Leon said:

    The Tories are so obviously heading for a terrible defeat, the more interesting and live political question is, perhaps, how Starmer’s Labour will do in Scotland

    That is much harder to call. The indyvoters provide a floor for Sturgeon… but she must be damaged by the Trans (sorry!) stuff

    If Labour - as some sub samples suggest - go well over 30% of the Scottish vote they will surely start taking quite a few seats from the Nits. That will in turn have implications for Holyrood

    Even in Scotland there cannot be more than 30% of the population as stupid as that.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,983
    Sunak should stick to his course of getting borrowing down. The next general election still doesn't have to be called for nearly 2 years and he shouldn't take much notice of polls midterm. As Thatcher said if you are the governing party and lead the polls midterm you aren't taking the tough decisions necessary. She of course regularly trailed Foot and Kinnock midterm before winning the actual general election.

    Then once the deficit has been cut he can look towards tax cuts before the general election. Brexit has been done so is less of a distraction as it was in the last Parliament, even if a deal over NI would help

    He should also look to regular debates with Starmer, I suspect he will do quite well with them with the public. He won most of the leadership debates with the public last summer after all

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    Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 12,985
    Leon said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Leon said:

    But this is my office for the day. So

    MmmmmBop?





    Is that you in the baseball cap?
    J-Roc all up in this bitch, muthafucka. Knowatimsayin?
    I believe those characters are Swedes. The hotel is full of Swedes, Brits, Aussies, and Russians. Lots of Russians
    Still not remotely interesting.
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    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,330

    Heathener said:

    CAN ANYTHING SHIFT THE POLLS SUNAK’S WAY?

    Yes.

    For sure the Tory government under Rishi are smart enough to have war gamed this coming 24 months and know exactly what they are doing.

    They know once inflation drops rapidly to 4% as every type of economist is agreed will happen this year, this tough stance now on pay rises from the government will be hailed for achieving the exciting inflation drop, and they will be chaired around the streets in triumph as true heirs of Lady Thatcher saviours of the nation for the inflation busting toughness they have shown. So by the time the election comes there will something akin to the unstoppable vaccine bounce or falklands factor going on.

    This few months of bad polling will just be remembered as wee bit of mid term turbulence, like Lady Thatcher experienced before two huge landslide wins.

    One of the most self-deluded posts in the history of pb.com.

    Unless it's parody.

    Sorry.

    x
    Have you never watched Fawlty Towers, with Basil exasperated about strikes making us sick man of Europe?

    Seventies strikes perpetuated inflation, Lady Thatcher smashing strikes just like Rishi is doing, saved us from high inflation and being sick man of Europe.

    You sure inflation won’t be 4% within the year, and Tories benefitting in polls from achieving that?
    Inflation has been dead so long that even the people who should know about it - central bankers - have forgotten.

    In the 80s it took a get deal of pain and time to squeeze inflation out of economies. This is where the Thatcher hatred came from, after all.

    Even after the primary drivers of inflation drop back - fuel and imported materials (disrupted supply chains from COVID), the secondary effects send ripples through the economy - pay rises for example. It will take time for them to drop back. Then the price rises that higher pay awards will take time to stop rising…

    It’s also arguable that we have forgotten how to fight inflation - by excluding housing costs, we relied on the collapse of consumer goods price (China) and services (low end jobs falling behind) to achieve the apparently low inflation.

    But with double digit housing cost increases in many years - what was real inflation?
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,181
    HYUFD said:

    Sunak should stick to his course of getting borrowing down. The next general election still doesn't have to be called for nearly 2 years and he shouldn't take much notice of polls midterm. As Thatcher said if you are the governing party and lead the polls midterm you aren't taking the tough decisions necessary. She of course regularly trailed Foot and Kinnock midterm before winning the actual general election.

    Then once the deficit has been cut he can look towards tax cuts before the general election. Brexit has been done so is less of a distraction as it was in the last Parliament, even if a deal over NI would help

    He should also look to regular debates with Starmer, I suspect he will do quite well with them with the public. He won most of the leadership debates with the public last summer after all

    That's an interesting idea. However, caveat your last paragraph. He was up against Liz Truss, who is as mad as a box of frogs and merely parroted cliches. It seems unlikely Starmer as an experienced KC who could go full-bloodedly for the Tory record would be a similarly easy target.
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