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Sunak’s hardline on the strikes could lead to his own destruction – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,219
edited February 2023 in General
imageSunak’s hardline on the strikes could lead to his own destruction – politicalbetting.com

One thing that we have learnt from political history is that if the government wants to take on a group of strikers then it must have the support of the public.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,085
    edited January 2023

    It does seem to smack of Ted Heath's attempts to pitch his party against the unions in the early 70s... trouble is Mick Lynch and Pat Cullen articulate a message that cuts through far better than random wealthy Tory Ministers..... the Cons may shore up the Express /DM core vote but in cities and younger demographics its a vote loser

    That's a very interesting comparison. You may well be right.

    The tories have not helped their cause by being morally bankrupt, sleaze-ridden, corrupt, tax dodgers ... spaffing billions of £££ on backhand PPE deals and stupid budgets.

    They haven't a single leg to stand on and we all know it.
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,085
    Meanwhile even Deltapoll, who might unfairly be called the Trafalgar Group of British polling, have Labour extending their lead.

    The longer this drags out, the worse it's going to get for the tory party.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,606
    It is a singularly impressive achievement by the Tory government that the IMF now thinks that in 2023 we will grow slower than RUSSIA - a country in the middle of a mistaken and catastrophic war which has led hundreds of thousands of its most productive people to flee the country


    Quite hard to put a positive spin on that, on a campaign poster

    “Tory Britain: still better than a nuclear Holocaust. Probably”

    They are going to get obliterated in 2024. It’s baked in the cake. They are staring at extinction
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,173
    edited January 2023

    It does seem to smack of Ted Heath's attempts to pitch his party against the unions in the early 70s... trouble is Mick Lynch and Pat Cullen articulate a message that cuts through far better than random wealthy Tory Ministers..... the Cons may shore up the Express /DM core vote but in cities and younger demographics its a vote loser

    I also think it plays into a bigger picture - there’s no doubt that many younger people feel the odds are stacked against their generation (whether true or not), and there was an interesting set of short interviews in the Guardian yesterday making that point about covid - whilst most of us older folk stayed in doors and caught up with the DIY or some hobby, the young were having their education or student days or early careers sacrificed to keep older people safe. In these disputes the government has made itself the proxy for the ‘winners’ of the economic settlement (with stories about Tory wealth in the news at the same time hardly helping), and those challenging the government can therefore pick up the mantle of champions for those of working age.

    There’s also a feeling of ‘last straw’ or ‘not again’ after a decade of pay restraint due to austerity, now widely seen as done for nothing (given the debts racked up due to covid), and in the background growing awareness that whatever you think of Brexit, it isn’t heading us towards either higher wages or better services, and was another case of the old doing over the young.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,736
    I see the IMF is forecasting that in 2023 the UK economy will perform worse than the Russian one (that is subject to international sanctions)

    What a fucking mess the Tories have made of EVERYTHING.
  • Leon said:

    It is a singularly impressive achievement by the Tory government that the IMF now thinks that in 2023 we will grow slower than RUSSIA - a country in the middle of a mistaken and catastrophic war which has led hundreds of thousands of its most productive people to flee the country


    Quite hard to put a positive spin on that, on a campaign poster

    “Tory Britain: still better than a nuclear Holocaust. Probably”

    They are going to get obliterated in 2024. It’s baked in the cake. They are staring at extinction

    Wait until you see how much our GDP would grow if we rejoined the single market.
  • Don't back Rishi down, smash these shirking strikers.
  • TazTaz Posts: 15,049

    I see the IMF is forecasting that in 2023 the UK economy will perform worse than the Russian one (that is subject to international sanctions)

    What a fucking mess the Tories have made of EVERYTHING.

    The IMF. Well known for their accurate forecasts.
  • Sunak is a bit shit.

    Dominic Raab has been formally criticised by a permanent secretary he worked with in evidence to the official inquiry into his behaviour.

    As the deputy prime minister faces mounting questions about his future, he is understood to be facing claims of routinely humiliating civil servants across several government departments, with dozens of officials now having made formal allegations against him.

    Rishi Sunak, the prime minister, said that he acted “swiftly and decisively” in sacking Nadhim Zahawi as the Conservative Party chairman on Sunday after an investigation found that he had repeatedly broken the ministerial code by failing to declare an investigation and tax penalty from HMRC.

    However, as he battles to free himself from a series of ethics controversies, Sunak is now facing fresh questions about why he reappointed Raab to the Ministry of Justice despite documented complaints about him dating back to March. Downing Street insisted last night that the prime minister was not aware of any complaints about Raab when he made him his deputy in October.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/senior-civil-servant-gives-evidence-to-dominic-raab-bullying-inquiry-v3j8j795l
  • Well I'm not sure I could ever brag, it just isn't in my nature.

    The ideal employee should be able to brag with the confidence of Muhammad Ali but the grace of Darcey Bussell, experts have suggested.

    Psychologists and self-help book authors have said that British workers should “cut self-deprecation in half” and learn how to trumpet their successes if they wish to get ahead.

    Meredith Fineman, author of Brag Better, said staff should find ways to communicate their brilliance.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/brag-like-an-american-to-get-ahead-at-work-british-told-m53nrx356
  • The University of Oxford really is a cesspit of idiots.

    An Oxford University student was caught stealing more than £2 million in a cryptocurrency scam after detectives discovered his pseudonym in his coursework.

    Wybo Wiersma, 40, a PhD student, has been jailed for four and a half years after admitting to stealing £2,156,000 worth of the Iota cryptocurrency from 99 victims.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/oxford-student-jailed-for-2m-crypto-theft-after-phd-blunder-ftmdj9tmp
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,736

    Don't back Rishi down, smash these shirking strikers.

    Did you scab during the lawyer's strike?
  • Don't back Rishi down, smash these shirking strikers.

    Did you scab during the lawyer's strike?
    That was a strike by barristers, I actually do real work for a living.
  • TazTaz Posts: 15,049

    It does seem to smack of Ted Heath's attempts to pitch his party against the unions in the early 70s... trouble is Mick Lynch and Pat Cullen articulate a message that cuts through far better than random wealthy Tory Ministers..... the Cons may shore up the Express /DM core vote but in cities and younger demographics its a vote loser

    Well that is a vote loser among a group who does not vote Tory as a rule anyway.

    The nurses leaders have indicated several times they are willing to compromise and do a deal. I just cannot get, for the life of me, why the govt doesn’t do a deal with them.

    The RMT has a new offer it is reviewing.

    But I just don’t get the governments strategy on these strikes. It makes little sense.
  • It never rains but it pours.

    The multinational IT firm co-founded by Rishi Sunak’s father-in-law is in dispute with HM Revenue & Customs over a multimillion-pound corporation tax bill.

    Infosys, founded in 1981 by NR Narayana Murthy, said in its most recent accounts that it disagreed with HMRC about the amount of corporation tax it owes for a period from 2014 to 2017. The tax in question amounts to just under £20 million.

    Murthy quit Infosys in 2014 and has clashed with the company’s subsequent leadership. Akshata Murty, his daughter and Sunak’s wife, still owns just over 0.9 per cent of the Bangalore-based company.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/firm-founded-by-rishi-sunaks-father-in-law-in-20m-tax-bill-dispute-8x7bqdwnh
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,170
    edited January 2023
    Leon said:

    It is a singularly impressive achievement by the Tory government that the IMF now thinks that in 2023 we will grow slower than RUSSIA - a country in the middle of a mistaken and catastrophic war which has led hundreds of thousands of its most productive people to flee the country


    Quite hard to put a positive spin on that, on a campaign poster

    “Tory Britain: still better than a nuclear Holocaust. Probably”

    They are going to get obliterated in 2024. It’s baked in the cake. They are staring at extinction

    It’s worse than that, Captain Kirk is laughing at us.



    https://twitter.com/williamshatner/status/1620065936538738695?s=61&t=y2i8tNlS0DesKgomnfoRGQ
  • The University of Oxford really is a cesspit of idiots.

    An Oxford University student was caught stealing more than £2 million in a cryptocurrency scam after detectives discovered his pseudonym in his coursework.

    Wybo Wiersma, 40, a PhD student, has been jailed for four and a half years after admitting to stealing £2,156,000 worth of the Iota cryptocurrency from 99 victims.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/oxford-student-jailed-for-2m-crypto-theft-after-phd-blunder-ftmdj9tmp

    Wrong university Oxford don't do PhDs. You can understand how frustrating Harvard finds it to have utter toilet operations capitalising on having the same town address as them.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,736

    Sunak is a bit shit.

    Dominic Raab has been formally criticised by a permanent secretary he worked with in evidence to the official inquiry into his behaviour.

    As the deputy prime minister faces mounting questions about his future, he is understood to be facing claims of routinely humiliating civil servants across several government departments, with dozens of officials now having made formal allegations against him.

    Rishi Sunak, the prime minister, said that he acted “swiftly and decisively” in sacking Nadhim Zahawi as the Conservative Party chairman on Sunday after an investigation found that he had repeatedly broken the ministerial code by failing to declare an investigation and tax penalty from HMRC.

    However, as he battles to free himself from a series of ethics controversies, Sunak is now facing fresh questions about why he reappointed Raab to the Ministry of Justice despite documented complaints about him dating back to March. Downing Street insisted last night that the prime minister was not aware of any complaints about Raab when he made him his deputy in October.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/senior-civil-servant-gives-evidence-to-dominic-raab-bullying-inquiry-v3j8j795l

    We need Mrs Merton to ask why Sunak appointed Sunak loyalist Raab
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,736

    Sunak is a bit shit.

    Dominic Raab has been formally criticised by a permanent secretary he worked with in evidence to the official inquiry into his behaviour.

    As the deputy prime minister faces mounting questions about his future, he is understood to be facing claims of routinely humiliating civil servants across several government departments, with dozens of officials now having made formal allegations against him.

    Rishi Sunak, the prime minister, said that he acted “swiftly and decisively” in sacking Nadhim Zahawi as the Conservative Party chairman on Sunday after an investigation found that he had repeatedly broken the ministerial code by failing to declare an investigation and tax penalty from HMRC.

    However, as he battles to free himself from a series of ethics controversies, Sunak is now facing fresh questions about why he reappointed Raab to the Ministry of Justice despite documented complaints about him dating back to March. Downing Street insisted last night that the prime minister was not aware of any complaints about Raab when he made him his deputy in October.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/senior-civil-servant-gives-evidence-to-dominic-raab-bullying-inquiry-v3j8j795l

    We need Mrs Merton to ask why Sunak appointed Sunak loyalist Raab
    But she is dead.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,706

    I see the IMF is forecasting that in 2023 the UK economy will perform worse than the Russian one (that is subject to international sanctions)

    What a fucking mess the Tories have made of EVERYTHING.

    It’s remarkable. The country is in such a mess, So much so that Tory failure is now a topic of conversation down my local.

    I am glad BJO is moving away from them.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,736

    Don't back Rishi down, smash these shirking strikers.

    Did you scab during the lawyer's strike?
    That was a strike by barristers, I actually do real work for a living.
    "Shiking at home"?
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,223

    It never rains but it pours.

    The multinational IT firm co-founded by Rishi Sunak’s father-in-law is in dispute with HM Revenue & Customs over a multimillion-pound corporation tax bill.

    Infosys, founded in 1981 by NR Narayana Murthy, said in its most recent accounts that it disagreed with HMRC about the amount of corporation tax it owes for a period from 2014 to 2017. The tax in question amounts to just under £20 million.

    Murthy quit Infosys in 2014 and has clashed with the company’s subsequent leadership. Akshata Murty, his daughter and Sunak’s wife, still owns just over 0.9 per cent of the Bangalore-based company.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/firm-founded-by-rishi-sunaks-father-in-law-in-20m-tax-bill-dispute-8x7bqdwnh

    Labour would be foolish to play this card. What Sunak’s relatives do is their business.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,736

    Don't back Rishi down, smash these shirking strikers.

    Did you scab during the lawyer's strike?
    That was a strike by barristers, I actually do real work for a living.
    "Shiking at home"?
    Shirking at home that should say but my r button is working to use!!
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,736

    Don't back Rishi down, smash these shirking strikers.

    Did you scab during the lawyer's strike?
    That was a strike by barristers, I actually do real work for a living.
    "Shiking at home"?
    Shirking at home that should say but my r button is working to use!!
    And my l is transforming to an s
  • The University of Oxford really is a cesspit of idiots.

    An Oxford University student was caught stealing more than £2 million in a cryptocurrency scam after detectives discovered his pseudonym in his coursework.

    Wybo Wiersma, 40, a PhD student, has been jailed for four and a half years after admitting to stealing £2,156,000 worth of the Iota cryptocurrency from 99 victims.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/oxford-student-jailed-for-2m-crypto-theft-after-phd-blunder-ftmdj9tmp

    Wrong university Oxford don't do PhDs. You can understand how frustrating Harvard finds it to have utter toilet operations capitalising on having the same town address as them.
    The IT and computer sciences expert was studying at the Internet Institute of St Cross College in Oxford when he set up the scam. He was eventually caught after a series of schoolboy errors, including submitting obviously fake ID documents and using his course name.

    https://www.stx.ox.ac.uk/
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,606

    Leon said:

    It is a singularly impressive achievement by the Tory government that the IMF now thinks that in 2023 we will grow slower than RUSSIA - a country in the middle of a mistaken and catastrophic war which has led hundreds of thousands of its most productive people to flee the country


    Quite hard to put a positive spin on that, on a campaign poster

    “Tory Britain: still better than a nuclear Holocaust. Probably”

    They are going to get obliterated in 2024. It’s baked in the cake. They are staring at extinction

    Wait until you see how much our GDP would grow if we rejoined the single market.
    Starmer will have an historic majority. He will, ironically, be the most domestically empowered prime minister since early Blair

    He will be able to tell the Nats to go jump, he will be able to exterminate what remains of the corbynite left. But then what?

    The siren call to rejoin the SM and CU will be powerful. He can blame it on the economic mess left by the Tories

    But his window of opportunity to do this will be narrow. He probably needs to do it in the first 1-2 years of his first term. That’s when Blair should have gone for the euro, after that events build up and conspire against audacious politics

    Will he do it? I’d say the chances are higher than
    50%
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,706
    It really is a massive achievement of this government to create an economy outperformed by Russia.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,512
    Jonathan said:

    It really is a massive achievement of this government to create an economy outperformed by Russia.

    If you really believe that, then I've got a bridge to sell you.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,713

    Leon said:

    It is a singularly impressive achievement by the Tory government that the IMF now thinks that in 2023 we will grow slower than RUSSIA - a country in the middle of a mistaken and catastrophic war which has led hundreds of thousands of its most productive people to flee the country


    Quite hard to put a positive spin on that, on a campaign poster

    “Tory Britain: still better than a nuclear Holocaust. Probably”

    They are going to get obliterated in 2024. It’s baked in the cake. They are staring at extinction

    Wait until you see how much our GDP would grow if we rejoined the single market.
    The IMF don't mention Brexit - they attribute it to rapid interest rate rises, tax rises, higher borrowing costs for businesses, and still high domestic energy prices. You could argue that Brexit is a factor in all of those but it's not the cause - but this comes off the back of us having one of the strongest rebounds in 2022 and growth forecasts for all European economies are very modest and all are experiencing the same problems.

    FWIW I think it's overly pessimistic - growth numbers have already been revised up for the most recent quarter and inflation is starting to come down.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,038

    Taz said:

    It does seem to smack of Ted Heath's attempts to pitch his party against the unions in the early 70s... trouble is Mick Lynch and Pat Cullen articulate a message that cuts through far better than random wealthy Tory Ministers..... the Cons may shore up the Express /DM core vote but in cities and younger demographics its a vote loser

    Well that is a vote loser among a group who does not vote Tory as a rule anyway.

    The nurses leaders have indicated several times they are willing to compromise and do a deal. I just cannot get, for the life of me, why the govt doesn’t do a deal with them.

    The RMT has a new offer it is reviewing.

    But I just don’t get the governments strategy on these strikes. It makes little sense.
    The government strategy makes sense in the context of the Truss Premiership that preceded it. The days when a British government could simply agree to spend several billion pounds more in public sector salaries by increasing borrowing are past. There is no money left.

    Britain thinks it went through austerity following the Great Financial Crash, but things never got as bad as they did in Ireland, where the government was forced to implement actual cuts in nominal public sector pay, rather than use inflation to devalue them in real terms.

    To be able to settle the public sector pay strikes, with an extra several % on pay deals, Sunak and Hunt will have to find another way to increase taxes, or cut spending, by many billions of pounds every year.

    In the last budgetary statement they already took the step of extending fiscal drag for years after the next election. They're all out of stealthy ways to make the numbers add up.

    Perhaps Britain's growth and tax receipts will beat forecasts, and the OBR forecasts in March will be revised to be more optimistic, providing fiscal space for a more generous public sector pay settlement - though the government will be desperate to use any fiscal wriggle room for pre-election tax cuts.

    It's amazing how much commentary on the public sector pay strikes completely ignores Britain's poor economic and fiscal position. It's not purely a political question.
    Yep, the next Labour government in 2024 is going to be a chastening one for public sector unions when they discover that we really are at the outer limits of what the UK economy can fund in terms of public sector spending and that it was not just the Tories being nasty.

    I expect very high levels of disillusionment with SKS very quickly. But this won’t save the Tories who are going to be smashed.
  • Leon said:

    It is a singularly impressive achievement by the Tory government that the IMF now thinks that in 2023 we will grow slower than RUSSIA - a country in the middle of a mistaken and catastrophic war which has led hundreds of thousands of its most productive people to flee the country


    Quite hard to put a positive spin on that, on a campaign poster

    “Tory Britain: still better than a nuclear Holocaust. Probably”

    They are going to get obliterated in 2024. It’s baked in the cake. They are staring at extinction

    Wait until you see how much our GDP would grow if we rejoined the single market.
    The IMF don't mention Brexit - they attribute it to rapid interest rate rises, tax rises, higher borrowing costs for businesses, and still high domestic energy prices. You could argue that Brexit is a factor in all of those but it's not the cause - but this comes off the back of us having one of the strongest rebounds in 2022 and growth forecasts for all European economies are very modest and all are experiencing the same problems.

    FWIW I think it's overly pessimistic - growth numbers have already been revised up for the most recent quarter and inflation is starting to come down.
    I meant if those forecasts turn out to be true then it is an easy win for any incoming government to say we'll rejoin the single market.
  • Leon said:

    Leon said:

    It is a singularly impressive achievement by the Tory government that the IMF now thinks that in 2023 we will grow slower than RUSSIA - a country in the middle of a mistaken and catastrophic war which has led hundreds of thousands of its most productive people to flee the country


    Quite hard to put a positive spin on that, on a campaign poster

    “Tory Britain: still better than a nuclear Holocaust. Probably”

    They are going to get obliterated in 2024. It’s baked in the cake. They are staring at extinction

    Wait until you see how much our GDP would grow if we rejoined the single market.
    Starmer will have an historic majority. He will, ironically, be the most domestically empowered prime minister since early Blair

    He will be able to tell the Nats to go jump, he will be able to exterminate what remains of the corbynite left. But then what?

    The siren call to rejoin the SM and CU will be powerful. He can blame it on the economic mess left by the Tories

    But his window of opportunity to do this will be narrow. He probably needs to do it in the first 1-2 years of his first term. That’s when Blair should have gone for the euro, after that events build up and conspire against audacious politics

    Will he do it? I’d say the chances are higher than
    50%
    I'm doing a piece this week which says the chances of rejoining the single market/the EU actually decreases the higher the Labour majority is.

    Now if it is a hung parliament then I expect the Lib Dem condition for a coalition is rejoining the single market/EU.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,713
    Leon said:

    It is a singularly impressive achievement by the Tory government that the IMF now thinks that in 2023 we will grow slower than RUSSIA - a country in the middle of a mistaken and catastrophic war which has led hundreds of thousands of its most productive people to flee the country


    Quite hard to put a positive spin on that, on a campaign poster

    “Tory Britain: still better than a nuclear Holocaust. Probably”

    They are going to get obliterated in 2024. It’s baked in the cake. They are staring at extinction

    My soundings over the weekend are that this is now starting to eat into the Tory core vote, which is going anywhere else - DNK, Reform, Labour or WNV. They've ratnered the brand. I have a reason to vote for them but very few else. Also, they are quite clearly going to spend the next 20 months fighting amongst themselves, rather than uniting for an honourable defeat, because like the scorpion it's in their nature.

    I am therefore now backing a Labour majority.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,038

    Leon said:

    It is a singularly impressive achievement by the Tory government that the IMF now thinks that in 2023 we will grow slower than RUSSIA - a country in the middle of a mistaken and catastrophic war which has led hundreds of thousands of its most productive people to flee the country


    Quite hard to put a positive spin on that, on a campaign poster

    “Tory Britain: still better than a nuclear Holocaust. Probably”

    They are going to get obliterated in 2024. It’s baked in the cake. They are staring at extinction

    Wait until you see how much our GDP would grow if we rejoined the single market.
    The IMF don't mention Brexit - they attribute it to rapid interest rate rises, tax rises, higher borrowing costs for businesses, and still high domestic energy prices. You could argue that Brexit is a factor in all of those but it's not the cause - but this comes off the back of us having one of the strongest rebounds in 2022 and growth forecasts for all European economies are very modest and all are experiencing the same problems.

    FWIW I think it's overly pessimistic - growth numbers have already been revised up for the most recent quarter and inflation is starting to come down.
    I agree. I think we will have some net growth this year but nothing to write home about, maybe 1-2%. We may fit in a technical recession but I doubt it, we will be bumping along with pluses and minuses of a very small order, basically flat.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,713

    Leon said:

    It is a singularly impressive achievement by the Tory government that the IMF now thinks that in 2023 we will grow slower than RUSSIA - a country in the middle of a mistaken and catastrophic war which has led hundreds of thousands of its most productive people to flee the country


    Quite hard to put a positive spin on that, on a campaign poster

    “Tory Britain: still better than a nuclear Holocaust. Probably”

    They are going to get obliterated in 2024. It’s baked in the cake. They are staring at extinction

    Wait until you see how much our GDP would grow if we rejoined the single market.
    The IMF don't mention Brexit - they attribute it to rapid interest rate rises, tax rises, higher borrowing costs for businesses, and still high domestic energy prices. You could argue that Brexit is a factor in all of those but it's not the cause - but this comes off the back of us having one of the strongest rebounds in 2022 and growth forecasts for all European economies are very modest and all are experiencing the same problems.

    FWIW I think it's overly pessimistic - growth numbers have already been revised up for the most recent quarter and inflation is starting to come down.
    I meant if those forecasts turn out to be true then it is an easy win for any incoming government to say we'll rejoin the single market.
    I don't doubt that pro-Europeans will use any economic challenges the UK faces as a platform to campaign on for readmission to the single market, because they know that will have wider resonance than their political objectives.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    - ”One thing that we have learnt from political history is that if the government wants to take on a group of strikers then it must have the support of the public.

    One thing that we have learnt from political history is that politicians needs to be inquisitive and perceptive. The problem is that Tory politicians have quite simply lost their touch. Why this has occurred is up for debate, but there can be no doubt that a catastrophic collapse in social intelligence has occurred during the last decade.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,106
    Leon said:

    It is a singularly impressive achievement by the Tory government that the IMF now thinks that in 2023 we will grow slower than RUSSIA - a country in the middle of a mistaken and catastrophic war which has led hundreds of thousands of its most productive people to flee the country

    You voted for it...
  • Everyone I have spoken to without fail regardless of party thinks the nurses have a point. So therefore Sunak is an idiot
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146

    It does seem to smack of Ted Heath's attempts to pitch his party against the unions in the early 70s... trouble is Mick Lynch and Pat Cullen articulate a message that cuts through far better than random wealthy Tory Ministers..... the Cons may shore up the Express /DM core vote but in cities and younger demographics its a vote loser

    We see this throughout global politics: politicians trying to shore up their bases and thus appealing to the extremes. There are rich rewards for those leaders who dare to risk annoying their core and instead reach out to the broader public.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146

    Everyone I have spoken to without fail regardless of party thinks the nurses have a point. So therefore Sunak is an idiot

    Have you considered the possibility that your social circle is not correctly weighed to be representative of the wider electorate?
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,106
    @PickardJE: - Britain has slumped to its lowest-ever score in Transparency International’s global Corruption Perceptions Index… https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1620327728103956480
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    It is a singularly impressive achievement by the Tory government that the IMF now thinks that in 2023 we will grow slower than RUSSIA - a country in the middle of a mistaken and catastrophic war which has led hundreds of thousands of its most productive people to flee the country

    You voted for it...
    Exactly.

    After blaming everyone else for the pickle, I wonder when Tories will understand the stark truth: it is their own fault.
  • mwadamsmwadams Posts: 3,671
    DavidL said:

    Leon said:

    It is a singularly impressive achievement by the Tory government that the IMF now thinks that in 2023 we will grow slower than RUSSIA - a country in the middle of a mistaken and catastrophic war which has led hundreds of thousands of its most productive people to flee the country


    Quite hard to put a positive spin on that, on a campaign poster

    “Tory Britain: still better than a nuclear Holocaust. Probably”

    They are going to get obliterated in 2024. It’s baked in the cake. They are staring at extinction

    Wait until you see how much our GDP would grow if we rejoined the single market.
    The IMF don't mention Brexit - they attribute it to rapid interest rate rises, tax rises, higher borrowing costs for businesses, and still high domestic energy prices. You could argue that Brexit is a factor in all of those but it's not the cause - but this comes off the back of us having one of the strongest rebounds in 2022 and growth forecasts for all European economies are very modest and all are experiencing the same problems.

    FWIW I think it's overly pessimistic - growth numbers have already been revised up for the most recent quarter and inflation is starting to come down.
    I agree. I think we will have some net growth this year but nothing to write home about, maybe 1-2%. We may fit in a technical recession but I doubt it, we will be bumping along with pluses and minuses of a very small order, basically flat.
    I think that is quite a likely outcome.

    On the point of growth predictions: while it is true that we had the highest growth in the G7 in 21Q4 and 22Q1, that was from the worst pandemic decline in the G7, leaving us in a net negative position. Since then (for a number of reasons as you say) we have fallen back to the bottom (or near bottom) of real- and projected- GDP growth for 22Q4/23.

    I am concerned that the business outlook is poor for the UK: for instance, we have only had the first wave of business closures from the energy price working its way through the system.

    https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/sn02784/
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,046

    Leon said:

    It is a singularly impressive achievement by the Tory government that the IMF now thinks that in 2023 we will grow slower than RUSSIA - a country in the middle of a mistaken and catastrophic war which has led hundreds of thousands of its most productive people to flee the country


    Quite hard to put a positive spin on that, on a campaign poster

    “Tory Britain: still better than a nuclear Holocaust. Probably”

    They are going to get obliterated in 2024. It’s baked in the cake. They are staring at extinction

    Wait until you see how much our GDP would grow if we rejoined the single market.
    The IMF don't mention Brexit - they attribute it to rapid interest rate rises, tax rises, higher borrowing costs for businesses, and still high domestic energy prices. You could argue that Brexit is a factor in all of those but it's not the cause - but this comes off the back of us having one of the strongest rebounds in 2022 and growth forecasts for all European economies are very modest and all are experiencing the same problems.

    FWIW I think it's overly pessimistic - growth numbers have already been revised up for the most recent quarter and inflation is starting to come down.
    I meant if those forecasts turn out to be true then it is an easy win for any incoming government to say we'll rejoin the single market.
    They won’t say that before the election though. The resumption of unskilled immigration will lead to millions of the poorest workers forced to take pay cuts back to minimum wage, as the increased population leads to the cost of housing going up.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,038

    - ”One thing that we have learnt from political history is that if the government wants to take on a group of strikers then it must have the support of the public.

    One thing that we have learnt from political history is that politicians needs to be inquisitive and perceptive. The problem is that Tory politicians have quite simply lost their touch. Why this has occurred is up for debate, but there can be no doubt that a catastrophic collapse in social intelligence has occurred during the last decade.

    I would agree with this. The vast majority don’t know how inflation got out of control or anything about the incompetence of the BoE but they perceive that the people in general and public sector employees in particular are being asked to pay the price of a government cock up with a real and significant reduction in real wages. And it just doesn’t seem fair. The government’s refusal to recognise that makes them out of touch and difficult to support.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,481

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    It is a singularly impressive achievement by the Tory government that the IMF now thinks that in 2023 we will grow slower than RUSSIA - a country in the middle of a mistaken and catastrophic war which has led hundreds of thousands of its most productive people to flee the country

    You voted for it...
    Exactly.

    After blaming everyone else for the pickle, I wonder when Tories will understand the stark truth: it is their own fault.
    Next Labour government will be at fault.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,106
    The Brexit press can’t hide these inconvenient truths. Jeremy Warner, the Telegraph’s associate editor, challenges Jeremy Hunt’s bizarrely Pollyanna-ish assessment of the economy, writing “trade with our European neighbours is faltering badly,” due to Brexit, with “the rather awkward fact that the UK is the only G7 economy yet to recover to its pre-pandemic size”. “The grim reality is that the country seems to be falling apart on almost every front” and “car production has fallen to its lowest since the 1950s”.

    All that is why Prof Matthew Goodwin says that “Bregret is taking hold in Britain” with only one in five thinking it’s going well. Brexiters are now the minority, Bremoaning like hell because no amount of Brexit boosterism will bring back those lost supporters who know exactly whom to blame. Few will agree that their pet project has failed because it wasn’t “hard Brexit” enough. Eventually extreme Brexiters will subside back into their irrelevant coterie of cultists, unforgiven and moaning all the way.


    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/jan/31/three-years-on-brexit-uk-voters-rejoining-eu-labour-europe
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,106
    @Joe_Mayes: Exclusive: Three years on, areas that voted for Brexit are more likely to have fallen even further behind the riche… https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1620326107752058881
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,481
    Am surprised we had 4.1% growth in 2022.
    Given that the optimistic view for 2023 is zero, maybe an election isn't so daft?
    The slowdown is gonna be stark.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,713
    dixiedean said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    It is a singularly impressive achievement by the Tory government that the IMF now thinks that in 2023 we will grow slower than RUSSIA - a country in the middle of a mistaken and catastrophic war which has led hundreds of thousands of its most productive people to flee the country

    You voted for it...
    Exactly.

    After blaming everyone else for the pickle, I wonder when Tories will understand the stark truth: it is their own fault.
    Next Labour government will be at fault.
    Well, eventually it will be. Don't forget how unpopular that was by the end of Brown's tenure.

    The truth is there are no easy answers to sustainable decent growth anymore and lots of difficult choices, and European countries (those are the ones inside the EU by the way) have just as many problems as we do and, in some instances, worse political ones.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,300

    Leon said:

    It is a singularly impressive achievement by the Tory government that the IMF now thinks that in 2023 we will grow slower than RUSSIA - a country in the middle of a mistaken and catastrophic war which has led hundreds of thousands of its most productive people to flee the country


    Quite hard to put a positive spin on that, on a campaign poster

    “Tory Britain: still better than a nuclear Holocaust. Probably”

    They are going to get obliterated in 2024. It’s baked in the cake. They are staring at extinction

    Wait until you see how much our GDP would grow if we rejoined the single market.
    The IMF don't mention Brexit - they attribute it to rapid interest rate rises, tax rises, higher borrowing costs for businesses, and still high domestic energy prices. You could argue that Brexit is a factor in all of those but it's not the cause - but this comes off the back of us having one of the strongest rebounds in 2022 and growth forecasts for all European economies are very modest and all are experiencing the same problems.

    FWIW I think it's overly pessimistic - growth numbers have already been revised up for the most recent quarter and inflation is starting to come down.
    I meant if those forecasts turn out to be true then it is an easy win for any incoming government to say we'll rejoin the single market.
    I don't doubt that pro-Europeans will use any economic challenges the UK faces as a platform to campaign on for readmission to the single market, because they know that will have wider resonance than their political objectives.
    After half a decade of having the piss taken out of them for failing to campaign in a way that appealed to the electorate, it would be surprising had they not picked up a few tips.

    And without sinking to Farage style depths, too.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,038
    mwadams said:

    DavidL said:

    Leon said:

    It is a singularly impressive achievement by the Tory government that the IMF now thinks that in 2023 we will grow slower than RUSSIA - a country in the middle of a mistaken and catastrophic war which has led hundreds of thousands of its most productive people to flee the country


    Quite hard to put a positive spin on that, on a campaign poster

    “Tory Britain: still better than a nuclear Holocaust. Probably”

    They are going to get obliterated in 2024. It’s baked in the cake. They are staring at extinction

    Wait until you see how much our GDP would grow if we rejoined the single market.
    The IMF don't mention Brexit - they attribute it to rapid interest rate rises, tax rises, higher borrowing costs for businesses, and still high domestic energy prices. You could argue that Brexit is a factor in all of those but it's not the cause - but this comes off the back of us having one of the strongest rebounds in 2022 and growth forecasts for all European economies are very modest and all are experiencing the same problems.

    FWIW I think it's overly pessimistic - growth numbers have already been revised up for the most recent quarter and inflation is starting to come down.
    I agree. I think we will have some net growth this year but nothing to write home about, maybe 1-2%. We may fit in a technical recession but I doubt it, we will be bumping along with pluses and minuses of a very small order, basically flat.
    I think that is quite a likely outcome.

    On the point of growth predictions: while it is true that we had the highest growth in the G7 in 21Q4 and 22Q1, that was from the worst pandemic decline in the G7, leaving us in a net negative position. Since then (for a number of reasons as you say) we have fallen back to the bottom (or near bottom) of real- and projected- GDP growth for 22Q4/23.

    I am concerned that the business outlook is poor for the UK: for instance, we have only had the first wave of business closures from the energy price working its way through the system.

    https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/sn02784/
    Some creative destruction is a necessary adjunct to real growth. There is a lot of labour being underused by zombie firms that were kept alive by the generosity of the Covid packages and bounce back loans. We need these businesses to go and be replaced by more productive and profitable ones.

    This is a difficult process that will not happen overnight and there will be some increase in unemployment but it is a necessary step to a proper recovery.
  • IanB2 said:

    It does seem to smack of Ted Heath's attempts to pitch his party against the unions in the early 70s... trouble is Mick Lynch and Pat Cullen articulate a message that cuts through far better than random wealthy Tory Ministers..... the Cons may shore up the Express /DM core vote but in cities and younger demographics its a vote loser

    I also think it plays into a bigger picture - there’s no doubt that many younger people feel the odds are stacked against their generation (whether true or not), and there was an interesting set of short interviews in the Guardian yesterday making that point about covid - whilst most of us older folk stayed in doors and caught up with the DIY or some hobby, the young were having their education or student days or early careers sacrificed to keep older people safe. In these disputes the government has made itself the proxy for the ‘winners’ of the economic settlement (with stories about Tory wealth in the news at the same time hardly helping), and those challenging the government can therefore pick up the mantle of champions for those of working age.

    There’s also a feeling of ‘last straw’ or ‘not again’ after a decade of pay restraint due to austerity, now widely seen as done for nothing (given the debts racked up due to covid), and in the background growing awareness that whatever you think of Brexit, it isn’t heading us towards either higher wages or better services, and was another case of the old doing over the young.
    Government debt continued to rise through Cameron and Osborne's austerity years, long before Covid and Brexit.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,300

    Everyone I have spoken to without fail regardless of party thinks the nurses have a point. So therefore Sunak is an idiot

    Have you considered the possibility that your social circle is not correctly weighed to be representative of the wider electorate?
    Well it is at least part of the UK electorate...
  • It does seem to smack of Ted Heath's attempts to pitch his party against the unions in the early 70s... trouble is Mick Lynch and Pat Cullen articulate a message that cuts through far better than random wealthy Tory Ministers..... the Cons may shore up the Express /DM core vote but in cities and younger demographics its a vote loser

    We see this throughout global politics: politicians trying to shore up their bases and thus appealing to the extremes. There are rich rewards for those leaders who dare to risk annoying their core and instead reach out to the broader public.
    Like Starmer?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,591
    tlg86 said:

    It never rains but it pours.

    The multinational IT firm co-founded by Rishi Sunak’s father-in-law is in dispute with HM Revenue & Customs over a multimillion-pound corporation tax bill.

    Infosys, founded in 1981 by NR Narayana Murthy, said in its most recent accounts that it disagreed with HMRC about the amount of corporation tax it owes for a period from 2014 to 2017. The tax in question amounts to just under £20 million.

    Murthy quit Infosys in 2014 and has clashed with the company’s subsequent leadership. Akshata Murty, his daughter and Sunak’s wife, still owns just over 0.9 per cent of the Bangalore-based company.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/firm-founded-by-rishi-sunaks-father-in-law-in-20m-tax-bill-dispute-8x7bqdwnh

    Labour would be foolish to play this card. What Sunak’s relatives do is their business.
    They don't need to play it, the press will play it for them. When you're down and out like the Tories everything will be seen as reinforcing the negative view of them.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,811

    Everyone I have spoken to without fail regardless of party thinks the nurses have a point. So therefore Sunak is an idiot

    Have you considered the possibility that your social circle is not correctly weighed to be representative of the wider electorate?
    You mean, like the time you said Sweden would never join NATO as nobody wanted it?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,606

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    It is a singularly impressive achievement by the Tory government that the IMF now thinks that in 2023 we will grow slower than RUSSIA - a country in the middle of a mistaken and catastrophic war which has led hundreds of thousands of its most productive people to flee the country


    Quite hard to put a positive spin on that, on a campaign poster

    “Tory Britain: still better than a nuclear Holocaust. Probably”

    They are going to get obliterated in 2024. It’s baked in the cake. They are staring at extinction

    Wait until you see how much our GDP would grow if we rejoined the single market.
    Starmer will have an historic majority. He will, ironically, be the most domestically empowered prime minister since early Blair

    He will be able to tell the Nats to go jump, he will be able to exterminate what remains of the corbynite left. But then what?

    The siren call to rejoin the SM and CU will be powerful. He can blame it on the economic mess left by the Tories

    But his window of opportunity to do this will be narrow. He probably needs to do it in the first 1-2 years of his first term. That’s when Blair should have gone for the euro, after that events build up and conspire against audacious politics

    Will he do it? I’d say the chances are higher than
    50%
    I'm doing a piece this week which says the chances of rejoining the single market/the EU actually decreases the higher the Labour majority is.

    Now if it is a hung parliament then I expect the Lib Dem condition for a coalition is rejoining the single market/EU.
    I disagree- obviously! - and for multiple reasons

    One of the main ones is Starmer himself. He is Remoaner-in-chief. He was the Brexit Shadow Minister under Corbyn who led the disgraceful campaign to ignore and reverse the original vote - this is why he is so keen NOT to talk about reversing Brexit now. But once he is safely in power he will be able to do what he likes, and he has a history of lying and doing a volte face, and the bigger his majority the more tempting it will be to go for major wins immediately

    And the biggest win of all is SM/CU. That leaves the UK a relatively short step from actual Rejoin

    He can't go for Rejoin itself because that needs another hideous divisive vote and no one wants a vote, it would destroy his premiership from the off. So his second best prize is the best prize available

    And he will have many voices around him saying Do it now, we won't get another chance like this...

    He will probably do it. Is my guess. But who knows
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,713
    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    It is a singularly impressive achievement by the Tory government that the IMF now thinks that in 2023 we will grow slower than RUSSIA - a country in the middle of a mistaken and catastrophic war which has led hundreds of thousands of its most productive people to flee the country


    Quite hard to put a positive spin on that, on a campaign poster

    “Tory Britain: still better than a nuclear Holocaust. Probably”

    They are going to get obliterated in 2024. It’s baked in the cake. They are staring at extinction

    Wait until you see how much our GDP would grow if we rejoined the single market.
    The IMF don't mention Brexit - they attribute it to rapid interest rate rises, tax rises, higher borrowing costs for businesses, and still high domestic energy prices. You could argue that Brexit is a factor in all of those but it's not the cause - but this comes off the back of us having one of the strongest rebounds in 2022 and growth forecasts for all European economies are very modest and all are experiencing the same problems.

    FWIW I think it's overly pessimistic - growth numbers have already been revised up for the most recent quarter and inflation is starting to come down.
    I meant if those forecasts turn out to be true then it is an easy win for any incoming government to say we'll rejoin the single market.
    I don't doubt that pro-Europeans will use any economic challenges the UK faces as a platform to campaign on for readmission to the single market, because they know that will have wider resonance than their political objectives.
    After half a decade of having the piss taken out of them for failing to campaign in a way that appealed to the electorate, it would be surprising had they not picked up a few tips.

    And without sinking to Farage style depths, too.
    Yes, I know, but it would be nice if both sides would rise above it and try to find a permanent solution to this.

    Once the boot is on the other foot the milk will quickly turn sour for them too.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,811

    The University of Oxford really is a cesspit of idiots.

    An Oxford University student was caught stealing more than £2 million in a cryptocurrency scam after detectives discovered his pseudonym in his coursework.

    Wybo Wiersma, 40, a PhD student, has been jailed for four and a half years after admitting to stealing £2,156,000 worth of the Iota cryptocurrency from 99 victims.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/oxford-student-jailed-for-2m-crypto-theft-after-phd-blunder-ftmdj9tmp

    Wrong university Oxford don't do PhDs. You can understand how frustrating Harvard finds it to have utter toilet operations capitalising on having the same town address as them.
    The IT and computer sciences expert was studying at the Internet Institute of St Cross College in Oxford when he set up the scam. He was eventually caught after a series of schoolboy errors, including submitting obviously fake ID documents and using his course name.

    https://www.stx.ox.ac.uk/
    Silly sod.

    He should have done his DPhil with Oxford’s History faculty. They don’t bother to read the theses they get.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,046

    IanB2 said:

    It does seem to smack of Ted Heath's attempts to pitch his party against the unions in the early 70s... trouble is Mick Lynch and Pat Cullen articulate a message that cuts through far better than random wealthy Tory Ministers..... the Cons may shore up the Express /DM core vote but in cities and younger demographics its a vote loser

    I also think it plays into a bigger picture - there’s no doubt that many younger people feel the odds are stacked against their generation (whether true or not), and there was an interesting set of short interviews in the Guardian yesterday making that point about covid - whilst most of us older folk stayed in doors and caught up with the DIY or some hobby, the young were having their education or student days or early careers sacrificed to keep older people safe. In these disputes the government has made itself the proxy for the ‘winners’ of the economic settlement (with stories about Tory wealth in the news at the same time hardly helping), and those challenging the government can therefore pick up the mantle of champions for those of working age.

    There’s also a feeling of ‘last straw’ or ‘not again’ after a decade of pay restraint due to austerity, now widely seen as done for nothing (given the debts racked up due to covid), and in the background growing awareness that whatever you think of Brexit, it isn’t heading us towards either higher wages or better services, and was another case of the old doing over the young.
    Government debt continued to rise through Cameron and Osborne's austerity years, long before Covid and Brexit.
    As did government spending, every year. It was very much relative austerity, as the department of debt interest took away spending from other government departments.

    As mentioned above, Ireland actually did austerity, where public salaries and benefit payments were actually cut in cash terms. Most of Western Europe now has the same problem though, public debt is high everywhere, and there’s little room for manoeuvre.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,713
    dixiedean said:

    Am surprised we had 4.1% growth in 2022.
    Given that the optimistic view for 2023 is zero, maybe an election isn't so daft?
    The slowdown is gonna be stark.

    What we really need to look at is average growth rates not annualised ones.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,300
    .
    ydoethur said:

    Everyone I have spoken to without fail regardless of party thinks the nurses have a point. So therefore Sunak is an idiot

    Have you considered the possibility that your social circle is not correctly weighed to be representative of the wider electorate?
    You mean, like the time you said Sweden would never join NATO as nobody wanted it?
    Erdogan still doesn't.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 49,165
    DavidL said:

    mwadams said:

    DavidL said:

    Leon said:

    It is a singularly impressive achievement by the Tory government that the IMF now thinks that in 2023 we will grow slower than RUSSIA - a country in the middle of a mistaken and catastrophic war which has led hundreds of thousands of its most productive people to flee the country


    Quite hard to put a positive spin on that, on a campaign poster

    “Tory Britain: still better than a nuclear Holocaust. Probably”

    They are going to get obliterated in 2024. It’s baked in the cake. They are staring at extinction

    Wait until you see how much our GDP would grow if we rejoined the single market.
    The IMF don't mention Brexit - they attribute it to rapid interest rate rises, tax rises, higher borrowing costs for businesses, and still high domestic energy prices. You could argue that Brexit is a factor in all of those but it's not the cause - but this comes off the back of us having one of the strongest rebounds in 2022 and growth forecasts for all European economies are very modest and all are experiencing the same problems.

    FWIW I think it's overly pessimistic - growth numbers have already been revised up for the most recent quarter and inflation is starting to come down.
    I agree. I think we will have some net growth this year but nothing to write home about, maybe 1-2%. We may fit in a technical recession but I doubt it, we will be bumping along with pluses and minuses of a very small order, basically flat.
    I think that is quite a likely outcome.

    On the point of growth predictions: while it is true that we had the highest growth in the G7 in 21Q4 and 22Q1, that was from the worst pandemic decline in the G7, leaving us in a net negative position. Since then (for a number of reasons as you say) we have fallen back to the bottom (or near bottom) of real- and projected- GDP growth for 22Q4/23.

    I am concerned that the business outlook is poor for the UK: for instance, we have only had the first wave of business closures from the energy price working its way through the system.

    https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/sn02784/
    Some creative destruction is a necessary adjunct to real growth. There is a lot of labour being underused by zombie firms that were kept alive by the generosity of the Covid packages and bounce back loans. We need these businesses to go and be replaced by more productive and profitable ones.

    This is a difficult process that will not happen overnight and there will be some increase in unemployment but it is a necessary step to a proper recovery.
    To build we must first destroy...
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    Scott_xP said:

    @PickardJE: - Britain has slumped to its lowest-ever score in Transparency International’s global Corruption Perceptions Index… https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1620327728103956480

    The Tories are rotten and corrupt to their core.

    Unfortunately, so are the Labour Party:

    https://twitter.com/saulstaniforth/status/1613089555103584256?s=46&t=fyJQFT6CXyPdzmX7vp-rdg
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,591
    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    It is a singularly impressive achievement by the Tory government that the IMF now thinks that in 2023 we will grow slower than RUSSIA - a country in the middle of a mistaken and catastrophic war which has led hundreds of thousands of its most productive people to flee the country

    You voted for it...
    I know it makes you feel better, and people like me are partly responsible, but when someone has already made the leap to blaming the party which instigated things taking a personal blame approach might well just push them back towards that party, and that's hardly helpful. All those bregretful voters in the Red Wall etc wont think it's their fault the government failed, and telling them it is saves quite a few seats if it were used as an official strategy I reckon.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,713
    Just used the Gents at Waterloo for a number two.

    Never again. Think it'd have been more pleasant to be at Vimy Ridge.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    Scott_xP said:

    @Joe_Mayes: Exclusive: Three years on, areas that voted for Brexit are more likely to have fallen even further behind the riche… https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1620326107752058881

    People who voted for the face-eating leopard party are astonished when they get their faces eaten off.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,811
    Nigelb said:

    .

    ydoethur said:

    Everyone I have spoken to without fail regardless of party thinks the nurses have a point. So therefore Sunak is an idiot

    Have you considered the possibility that your social circle is not correctly weighed to be representative of the wider electorate?
    You mean, like the time you said Sweden would never join NATO as nobody wanted it?
    Erdogan still doesn't.
    And I expect him to continue not to until the 20th June.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 49,165
    Scott_xP said:

    @Joe_Mayes: Exclusive: Three years on, areas that voted for Brexit are more likely to have fallen even further behind the riche… https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1620326107752058881

    That was always going to be the outcome. The dynamic financial and cultural industries and University cities of Remania were always going to be more resilient to the effects of Brexit than the sclerotic backwoods of Leaverstan. They will be hated for being successful too.
  • Just used the Gents at Waterloo for a number two.

    Never again. Think it'd have been more pleasant to be at Vimy Ridge.

    Pro-tip - there are loos in the essentially unused shopping centre at Waterloo Station which are your best bet.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,106
    @DavidGauke: Watching @BBCNewsnight Brexit special, it’s so striking how downbeat the pro-Leave contributors are about how it’s turned out.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146

    dixiedean said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    It is a singularly impressive achievement by the Tory government that the IMF now thinks that in 2023 we will grow slower than RUSSIA - a country in the middle of a mistaken and catastrophic war which has led hundreds of thousands of its most productive people to flee the country

    You voted for it...
    Exactly.

    After blaming everyone else for the pickle, I wonder when Tories will understand the stark truth: it is their own fault.
    Next Labour government will be at fault.
    Well, eventually it will be. Don't forget how unpopular that was by the end of Brown's tenure.
    You’ve just encapsulated why the UK is in terminal decline. There is no common cause. There is no solidarity. You are actively relishing the fact that the next government is going to tragically fail too. And the cherry on the cake is: you are correct.
  • DavidL said:

    - ”One thing that we have learnt from political history is that if the government wants to take on a group of strikers then it must have the support of the public.

    One thing that we have learnt from political history is that politicians needs to be inquisitive and perceptive. The problem is that Tory politicians have quite simply lost their touch. Why this has occurred is up for debate, but there can be no doubt that a catastrophic collapse in social intelligence has occurred during the last decade.

    I would agree with this. The vast majority don’t know how inflation got out of control or anything about the incompetence of the BoE but they perceive that the people in general and public sector employees in particular are being asked to pay the price of a government cock up with a real and significant reduction in real wages. And it just doesn’t seem fair. The government’s refusal to recognise that makes them out of touch and difficult to support.
    Add to that the perception that the government is desperate to cut taxes. They may not be actually doing it, but it's all some on the right talk about (see also today's Telegraph and Mail.)

    Whilst nobody likes paying taxes, there's also a sense that trying to crush public sector workers so that the Chancellor can take 2p off the basic rate just isn't on.

    And that's before we get to the simple practicality of supply and demand on current salary scales.

    As for what the government should do... There isn't an obvious good answer, I think. Conceding to one group will mean conceding to all, and then Hunt's budget plans go up in smoke. But digging in is just going to annoy everyone and make a final compromise more painful. It's a bit late to take the lesson "don't pick a fight without a clear plan to win".

    This government really is very inexperienced and with too much willingness to ignore realities it doesn't like. Hard not to think that has something to do with the post-2016 purges.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,300
    .

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    It is a singularly impressive achievement by the Tory government that the IMF now thinks that in 2023 we will grow slower than RUSSIA - a country in the middle of a mistaken and catastrophic war which has led hundreds of thousands of its most productive people to flee the country


    Quite hard to put a positive spin on that, on a campaign poster

    “Tory Britain: still better than a nuclear Holocaust. Probably”

    They are going to get obliterated in 2024. It’s baked in the cake. They are staring at extinction

    Wait until you see how much our GDP would grow if we rejoined the single market.
    The IMF don't mention Brexit - they attribute it to rapid interest rate rises, tax rises, higher borrowing costs for businesses, and still high domestic energy prices. You could argue that Brexit is a factor in all of those but it's not the cause - but this comes off the back of us having one of the strongest rebounds in 2022 and growth forecasts for all European economies are very modest and all are experiencing the same problems.

    FWIW I think it's overly pessimistic - growth numbers have already been revised up for the most recent quarter and inflation is starting to come down.
    I meant if those forecasts turn out to be true then it is an easy win for any incoming government to say we'll rejoin the single market.
    I don't doubt that pro-Europeans will use any economic challenges the UK faces as a platform to campaign on for readmission to the single market, because they know that will have wider resonance than their political objectives.
    After half a decade of having the piss taken out of them for failing to campaign in a way that appealed to the electorate, it would be surprising had they not picked up a few tips.

    And without sinking to Farage style depths, too.
    Yes, I know, but it would be nice if both sides would rise above it and try to find a permanent solution to this.

    Once the boot is on the other foot the milk will quickly turn sour for them too.
    In a FPTP, winner takes all system, that's the kind of politics you tend to get, unfortunately.

    And from the start (the promise of a referendum) to the finish with Boris, Brexit was as much about winning domestic elections as it was anything else.
    That's now operating in reverse.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,173

    IanB2 said:

    It does seem to smack of Ted Heath's attempts to pitch his party against the unions in the early 70s... trouble is Mick Lynch and Pat Cullen articulate a message that cuts through far better than random wealthy Tory Ministers..... the Cons may shore up the Express /DM core vote but in cities and younger demographics its a vote loser

    I also think it plays into a bigger picture - there’s no doubt that many younger people feel the odds are stacked against their generation (whether true or not), and there was an interesting set of short interviews in the Guardian yesterday making that point about covid - whilst most of us older folk stayed in doors and caught up with the DIY or some hobby, the young were having their education or student days or early careers sacrificed to keep older people safe. In these disputes the government has made itself the proxy for the ‘winners’ of the economic settlement (with stories about Tory wealth in the news at the same time hardly helping), and those challenging the government can therefore pick up the mantle of champions for those of working age.

    There’s also a feeling of ‘last straw’ or ‘not again’ after a decade of pay restraint due to austerity, now widely seen as done for nothing (given the debts racked up due to covid), and in the background growing awareness that whatever you think of Brexit, it isn’t heading us towards either higher wages or better services, and was another case of the old doing over the young.
    Government debt continued to rise through Cameron and Osborne's austerity years, long before Covid and Brexit.
    And obviously so, since the intention was to get back current spending to break even.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146

    DavidL said:

    - ”One thing that we have learnt from political history is that if the government wants to take on a group of strikers then it must have the support of the public.

    One thing that we have learnt from political history is that politicians needs to be inquisitive and perceptive. The problem is that Tory politicians have quite simply lost their touch. Why this has occurred is up for debate, but there can be no doubt that a catastrophic collapse in social intelligence has occurred during the last decade.

    I would agree with this. The vast majority don’t know how inflation got out of control or anything about the incompetence of the BoE but they perceive that the people in general and public sector employees in particular are being asked to pay the price of a government cock up with a real and significant reduction in real wages. And it just doesn’t seem fair. The government’s refusal to recognise that makes them out of touch and difficult to support.
    Add to that the perception that the government is desperate to cut taxes. They may not be actually doing it, but it's all some on the right talk about (see also today's Telegraph and Mail.)

    Whilst nobody likes paying taxes, there's also a sense that trying to crush public sector workers so that the Chancellor can take 2p off the basic rate just isn't on.

    And that's before we get to the simple practicality of supply and demand on current salary scales.

    As for what the government should do... There isn't an obvious good answer, I think. Conceding to one group will mean conceding to all, and then Hunt's budget plans go up in smoke. But digging in is just going to annoy everyone and make a final compromise more painful. It's a bit late to take the lesson "don't pick a fight without a clear plan to win".

    This government really is very inexperienced and with too much willingness to ignore realities it doesn't like. Hard not to think that has something to do with the post-2016 purges.
    Problem is: Starmer is just as inexperienced as Sunak. He’s going to be an utter disaster too.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,173
    kle4 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    It is a singularly impressive achievement by the Tory government that the IMF now thinks that in 2023 we will grow slower than RUSSIA - a country in the middle of a mistaken and catastrophic war which has led hundreds of thousands of its most productive people to flee the country

    You voted for it...
    I know it makes you feel better, and people like me are partly responsible, but when someone has already made the leap to blaming the party which instigated things taking a personal blame approach might well just push them back towards that party, and that's hardly helpful. All those bregretful voters in the Red Wall etc wont think it's their fault the government failed, and telling them it is saves quite a few seats if it were used as an official strategy I reckon.
    Of course not, the main purpose of politicians being as a receptacle for blame.

    That doesn't mean we can't have some fun by pointing a bit of the blame in Sean's direction....
  • Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    It is a singularly impressive achievement by the Tory government that the IMF now thinks that in 2023 we will grow slower than RUSSIA - a country in the middle of a mistaken and catastrophic war which has led hundreds of thousands of its most productive people to flee the country


    Quite hard to put a positive spin on that, on a campaign poster

    “Tory Britain: still better than a nuclear Holocaust. Probably”

    They are going to get obliterated in 2024. It’s baked in the cake. They are staring at extinction

    Wait until you see how much our GDP would grow if we rejoined the single market.
    Starmer will have an historic majority. He will, ironically, be the most domestically empowered prime minister since early Blair

    He will be able to tell the Nats to go jump, he will be able to exterminate what remains of the corbynite left. But then what?

    The siren call to rejoin the SM and CU will be powerful. He can blame it on the economic mess left by the Tories

    But his window of opportunity to do this will be narrow. He probably needs to do it in the first 1-2 years of his first term. That’s when Blair should have gone for the euro, after that events build up and conspire against audacious politics

    Will he do it? I’d say the chances are higher than
    50%
    I'm doing a piece this week which says the chances of rejoining the single market/the EU actually decreases the higher the Labour majority is.

    Now if it is a hung parliament then I expect the Lib Dem condition for a coalition is rejoining the single market/EU.
    I disagree- obviously! - and for multiple reasons

    One of the main ones is Starmer himself. He is Remoaner-in-chief. He was the Brexit Shadow Minister under Corbyn who led the disgraceful campaign to ignore and reverse the original vote - this is why he is so keen NOT to talk about reversing Brexit now. But once he is safely in power he will be able to do what he likes, and he has a history of lying and doing a volte face, and the bigger his majority the more tempting it will be to go for major wins immediately

    And the biggest win of all is SM/CU. That leaves the UK a relatively short step from actual Rejoin

    He can't go for Rejoin itself because that needs another hideous divisive vote and no one wants a vote, it would destroy his premiership from the off. So his second best prize is the best prize available

    And he will have many voices around him saying Do it now, we won't get another chance like this...

    He will probably do it. Is my guess. But who knows
    Single Market membership makes it less likely we will rejoin the EU not more.
  • NerysHughesNerysHughes Posts: 3,375
    dixiedean said:

    Am surprised we had 4.1% growth in 2022.
    Given that the optimistic view for 2023 is zero, maybe an election isn't so daft?
    The slowdown is gonna be stark.

    The IMF prediction is complete nonsense.
  • kle4 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    It is a singularly impressive achievement by the Tory government that the IMF now thinks that in 2023 we will grow slower than RUSSIA - a country in the middle of a mistaken and catastrophic war which has led hundreds of thousands of its most productive people to flee the country

    You voted for it...
    I know it makes you feel better, and people like me are partly responsible, but when someone has already made the leap to blaming the party which instigated things taking a personal blame approach might well just push them back towards that party, and that's hardly helpful. All those bregretful voters in the Red Wall etc wont think it's their fault the government failed, and telling them it is saves quite a few seats if it were used as an official strategy I reckon.
    This is a key point. Political absolutism never works, and people have all kinds of reason for voting as they do.

    Quite simply the red wall voted for prosperity. For respect. For being able to at least try and have some control over their community.

    So the winning strategy for Labour is to say "Brexit failed, but we can deliver to you the gains you need". Rejoin won't be on the agenda, but below that it's all politically doable.

    Remember that the "rule makers not rule takers" trope was propagated by the spivs who own the Tory party who intended to exploit red wall workers. Said workers hardly feel like they and their communities are in charge of anything, so "we'll be a vassal state!!!" doesn't have the same resonance it once had.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    Spotting the elephant in the room.


  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    edited January 2023

    It does seem to smack of Ted Heath's attempts to pitch his party against the unions in the early 70s... trouble is Mick Lynch and Pat Cullen articulate a message that cuts through far better than random wealthy Tory Ministers..... the Cons may shore up the Express /DM core vote but in cities and younger demographics its a vote loser

    We see this throughout global politics: politicians trying to shore up their bases and thus appealing to the extremes. There are rich rewards for those leaders who dare to risk annoying their core and instead reach out to the broader public.
    Like Starmer?
    No.

    Net satisfaction

    Rishi Sunak
    England -26
    Scotland -33

    Keir Starmer
    England -3
    Scotland -13

    Ed Davey
    England -10
    Scotland -20

    Ipsos, 18-25 January
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,606
    edited January 2023

    dixiedean said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    It is a singularly impressive achievement by the Tory government that the IMF now thinks that in 2023 we will grow slower than RUSSIA - a country in the middle of a mistaken and catastrophic war which has led hundreds of thousands of its most productive people to flee the country

    You voted for it...
    Exactly.

    After blaming everyone else for the pickle, I wonder when Tories will understand the stark truth: it is their own fault.
    Next Labour government will be at fault.
    Well, eventually it will be. Don't forget how unpopular that was by the end of Brown's tenure.
    You’ve just encapsulated why the UK is in terminal decline. There is no common cause. There is no solidarity. You are actively relishing the fact that the next government is going to tragically fail too. And the cherry on the cake is: you are correct.
    The UK is in "terminal decline" you say?

    Shall we just check in on your native Sweden, see how things are going there? Let's just do Stockholm first?

    Ah. I see. Oh dear. Well, never mind

    "Here’s an updated list of notable attacks as part of the escalating gang conflicts in and around Stockholm. Since Dec. 25, at least:

    - 11 shootings
    - 5 shot dead
    - 13 bombings

    Excuse the google translate. ”Gate” = building entrance. ”Shelled” = shot at
    https://aftonbladet.se/nyheter/a/on7VeK/lista-daden-under-valdsspiralen-i-stockholm"




  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,512
    There's an obvious question that needs asking about this IMF story: how accurate are their predictions usually? How did their predictions of growth this far out match the reality as it happened?
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,782
    Nigelb said:

    .

    ydoethur said:

    Everyone I have spoken to without fail regardless of party thinks the nurses have a point. So therefore Sunak is an idiot

    Have you considered the possibility that your social circle is not correctly weighed to be representative of the wider electorate?
    You mean, like the time you said Sweden would never join NATO as nobody wanted it?
    Erdogan still doesn't.
    Erdogan has said what he wants to let Sweden in: 40 x F-16 Block 70 plus 100 Block 70 upgrades and a refund on the $1.4bn (he's got receipts) that Türkiye tipped into the F-35. He'd probably also settle for being readmitted to F-35.

    It's up to Biden whether he wants Sweden in that badly. If he does pay off Erdogan there will be a few other countries rattling the mendicant's bowl in one hand and their Article 10 veto in the other.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,106

    Problem is: Starmer is just as inexperienced as Sunak. He’s going to be an utter disaster too.

    Starmer is already much more successful than Sunak. He has successfully side-lined the headbangers in his party.

    Meanwhile, experience is no guarantee of success...

    @magnusllewellin: Trans row: ‘Sturgeon’s opponents are entitled to scream “We told you so”. Because they did and they were treated as… https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1620308255716118528
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,142

    DavidL said:

    - ”One thing that we have learnt from political history is that if the government wants to take on a group of strikers then it must have the support of the public.

    One thing that we have learnt from political history is that politicians needs to be inquisitive and perceptive. The problem is that Tory politicians have quite simply lost their touch. Why this has occurred is up for debate, but there can be no doubt that a catastrophic collapse in social intelligence has occurred during the last decade.

    I would agree with this. The vast majority don’t know how inflation got out of control or anything about the incompetence of the BoE but they perceive that the people in general and public sector employees in particular are being asked to pay the price of a government cock up with a real and significant reduction in real wages. And it just doesn’t seem fair. The government’s refusal to recognise that makes them out of touch and difficult to support.
    Add to that the perception that the government is desperate to cut taxes. They may not be actually doing it, but it's all some on the right talk about (see also today's Telegraph and Mail.)

    Whilst nobody likes paying taxes, there's also a sense that trying to crush public sector workers so that the Chancellor can take 2p off the basic rate just isn't on.

    And that's before we get to the simple practicality of supply and demand on current salary scales.

    As for what the government should do... There isn't an obvious good answer, I think. Conceding to one group will mean conceding to all, and then Hunt's budget plans go up in smoke. But digging in is just going to annoy everyone and make a final compromise more painful. It's a bit late to take the lesson "don't pick a fight without a clear plan to win".

    This government really is very inexperienced and with too much willingness to ignore realities it doesn't like. Hard not to think that has something to do with the post-2016 purges.
    The Govt have made the right calculation here.

    The strikers will waver before the Govt does - Unions are leaking cash.
  • There's an obvious question that needs asking about this IMF story: how accurate are their predictions usually? How did their predictions of growth this far out match the reality as it happened?

    It's a forecast. They are always prisoners of events. So the valid question to ask if "the IMF prediction is complete nonsense as Nerys hopes is why?

    The IMF have no skin in UK politics or even pro / anti EU. They aren't politicised, not lobbying, not pushing a specific ideology other than money = good.

    It laughable when people dismiss impartial economists - especially the big global ones - when they dislike the message.
  • RazedabodeRazedabode Posts: 3,033
    I see Jacob Rees-Mogg is out on sky news batting for Brexit.

    After the figures today, the absolute state of the Tory party. 13 years and here we are - Rees Mogg telling me my insurance is cheaper as a benefit. Yeah, right
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,049

    Just used the Gents at Waterloo for a number two.

    Never again. Think it'd have been more pleasant to be at Vimy Ridge.

    TMI
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 49,165

    DavidL said:

    - ”One thing that we have learnt from political history is that if the government wants to take on a group of strikers then it must have the support of the public.

    One thing that we have learnt from political history is that politicians needs to be inquisitive and perceptive. The problem is that Tory politicians have quite simply lost their touch. Why this has occurred is up for debate, but there can be no doubt that a catastrophic collapse in social intelligence has occurred during the last decade.

    I would agree with this. The vast majority don’t know how inflation got out of control or anything about the incompetence of the BoE but they perceive that the people in general and public sector employees in particular are being asked to pay the price of a government cock up with a real and significant reduction in real wages. And it just doesn’t seem fair. The government’s refusal to recognise that makes them out of touch and difficult to support.
    Add to that the perception that the government is desperate to cut taxes. They may not be actually doing it, but it's all some on the right talk about (see also today's Telegraph and Mail.)

    Whilst nobody likes paying taxes, there's also a sense that trying to crush public sector workers so that the Chancellor can take 2p off the basic rate just isn't on.

    And that's before we get to the simple practicality of supply and demand on current salary scales.

    As for what the government should do... There isn't an obvious good answer, I think. Conceding to one group will mean conceding to all, and then Hunt's budget plans go up in smoke. But digging in is just going to annoy everyone and make a final compromise more painful. It's a bit late to take the lesson "don't pick a fight without a clear plan to win".

    This government really is very inexperienced and with too much willingness to ignore realities it doesn't like. Hard not to think that has something to do with the post-2016 purges.
    Problem is: Starmer is just as inexperienced as Sunak. He’s going to be an utter disaster too.
    Inexperience isn't necessarily a problem. The LD ministers in the Coalition had none, yet were generally very effective. Ditto New Labour in 1997 and even some of the Tories in 2010.

    It is lack of preparation that is the problem, and I am yet to be convinced that Starmer has ant solutions at all for the nations ills.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,927

    There's an obvious question that needs asking about this IMF story: how accurate are their predictions usually? How did their predictions of growth this far out match the reality as it happened?

    From this information we could then calculate a probability that the UK will have the lowest growth in the G7.

    Depending on the IMF accuracy it could be a 50% chance UK, 30% Germany, 20% Italy has the lowest growth. Or maybe their accuracy is quite good, and the probabilities are 85:10:5?
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,049
    Scott_xP said:

    Problem is: Starmer is just as inexperienced as Sunak. He’s going to be an utter disaster too.

    Starmer is already much more successful than Sunak. He has successfully side-lined the headbangers in his party.

    Meanwhile, experience is no guarantee of success...

    @magnusllewellin: Trans row: ‘Sturgeon’s opponents are entitled to scream “We told you so”. Because they did and they were treated as… https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1620308255716118528
    Scott please take a moment to paste the entire tweet. Pasted tweets on here are fantastic and I am a huge fan of your doing so. But I am finding myself skipping past your posts now (the world sobs) as they are too frustrating in their current format.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,811
    Mortimer said:

    DavidL said:

    - ”One thing that we have learnt from political history is that if the government wants to take on a group of strikers then it must have the support of the public.

    One thing that we have learnt from political history is that politicians needs to be inquisitive and perceptive. The problem is that Tory politicians have quite simply lost their touch. Why this has occurred is up for debate, but there can be no doubt that a catastrophic collapse in social intelligence has occurred during the last decade.

    I would agree with this. The vast majority don’t know how inflation got out of control or anything about the incompetence of the BoE but they perceive that the people in general and public sector employees in particular are being asked to pay the price of a government cock up with a real and significant reduction in real wages. And it just doesn’t seem fair. The government’s refusal to recognise that makes them out of touch and difficult to support.
    Add to that the perception that the government is desperate to cut taxes. They may not be actually doing it, but it's all some on the right talk about (see also today's Telegraph and Mail.)

    Whilst nobody likes paying taxes, there's also a sense that trying to crush public sector workers so that the Chancellor can take 2p off the basic rate just isn't on.

    And that's before we get to the simple practicality of supply and demand on current salary scales.

    As for what the government should do... There isn't an obvious good answer, I think. Conceding to one group will mean conceding to all, and then Hunt's budget plans go up in smoke. But digging in is just going to annoy everyone and make a final compromise more painful. It's a bit late to take the lesson "don't pick a fight without a clear plan to win".

    This government really is very inexperienced and with too much willingness to ignore realities it doesn't like. Hard not to think that has something to do with the post-2016 purges.
    The Govt have made the right calculation here.

    The strikers will waver before the Govt does - Unions are leaking cash.
    That wouldn't altogether surprise me, but do you have a source for that?
  • RazedabodeRazedabode Posts: 3,033

    There's an obvious question that needs asking about this IMF story: how accurate are their predictions usually? How did their predictions of growth this far out match the reality as it happened?

    Not sure that matters - on the ground and in peoples pockets, it feels like its right
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,300
    US car dealer...

    https://twitter.com/GuyDealership/status/1620252864978239488
    The resilience of the American economy is astounding:

    - Financing rates at record highs.

    - Monthly payments at record highs.

    - New car prices at record highs.

    - Used car prices slightly below record highs.

    And… Car dealers are having a very strong month.

    I can’t explain it
This discussion has been closed.