Just as the EU was blamed for most things before Brexit the reverse is now happening .
I can imagine it’s frustrating for Leavers but what goes around comes around !
This blame-Brexit campaign is possibly going to succeed as well
I used to scoff at predictions we would Rejoin. Now I am not so sure at all. Tho the Rejoiners need to act fairly fast - next 5-10 years - because the UK will in time pivot further away from the EU, as it necessarily develops a new economic model that actually works
Which is the big significance of the Conservatives screwing up to the extent that they're likely to be out of office in 2025.
Another term probably would be enough time to make the Brapprochment and Brejoin process horribly difficult. It might not have made Brexit a success, or something the public liked, but it would have been put in the "too hard to undo" column.
A Starmer government won't pivot further away from the EU; Brexit will be made to work by dilution.
Meanwhile, those who are generationally keen on Brexit will continue to go to that blessed place where they don't have to worry about it. (I'm making an assumption that it's about cohort, not age, but I think the data bear that out.)
Just as the EU was blamed for most things before Brexit the reverse is now happening .
I can imagine it’s frustrating for Leavers but what goes around comes around !
This blame-Brexit campaign is possibly going to succeed as well
I used to scoff at predictions we would Rejoin. Now I am not so sure at all. Tho the Rejoiners need to act fairly fast - next 5-10 years - because the UK will in time pivot further away from the EU, as it necessarily develops a new economic model that actually works
As shown on TV last night
Yep. I can see the polls and I can see the trend. We are possibly heading for Rejoin if the Rejoiners play it cleverly
That said the Remainers have shown crass ineptitude and boorish arrogance in the past, and if they allow people like you to be heard, gloating, sniping and bitterly exulting, they will badly miss the window of opportunity
Just as the EU was blamed for most things before Brexit the reverse is now happening .
I can imagine it’s frustrating for Leavers but what goes around comes around !
This blame-Brexit campaign is possibly going to succeed as well
I used to scoff at predictions we would Rejoin. Now I am not so sure at all. Tho the Rejoiners need to act fairly fast - next 5-10 years - because the UK will in time pivot further away from the EU, as it necessarily develops a new economic model that actually works
As shown on TV last night
Yep. I can see the polls and I can see the trend. We are possibly heading for Rejoin if the Rejoiners play it cleverly
That said the Remainers have shown crass ineptitude and boorish arrogance in the past, and if they allow people like you to be heard, gloating, sniping and bitterly exulting, they will badly miss the window of opportunity
May I be the Founder-Member of the 'We made the bed, we must lie in it Party'?
Mr. Leon, I do worry that in the future such histories will be impossible as diary entries and memos etc will all be electronic and easier to either delete or fake.
Clinton lying hardly makes him unique amongst US politicians. I don’t think this thesis stands up to much scrutiny.
He did it with a certain brazen style that was different. He was clearly proud of his lies. He seemed to use the “I am a sinner. Therefore I must be forgiven” thing we talked about, the other day.
One odd thing in the latest corruption link between Johnson and his chum at the BBC. Why did he need an introduction to his own distant relative?
£800 000 is a lot of money, even to a spendthrift like Johnson. What was the money for?
Divorce!
He’s always been rubbish with money, but was lucky that his wife earned a fortune and he made good money for little work with his Telegraph column.
Then he got divorced, and had to live with his new family on a government salary - the new wife having a part time charity job, and high expectations of lifestyle.
Boris is said to own two or three houses, and the papers recently had him sniffing around another pile in Tunbridge Wells. Is he really skint or just careful to the point of miserly?
My dad - always careful with money - taught me a saying: "Expenditure swells to fill any possible income".
In other words, when you're young and not earning much, you go out and have a good time. When you start earning more, you spend more. You buy slightly better things; you buy more of them. Instead of that cheap bottle of £7 plonk, you get a £15 one. Instead of a cheap smartphone, you get the latest Apple whatever.
He then said the key is to break that cycle: don't be miserly, but ensure your expenditure does not fill your income. In the case of a relative, he tries to save/invest 15% of his take home income - even if they was really hard when he was starting out.
I fear Boris is someone who has never learnt that. As soon as he earns something, even if it is a lot, it will disappear.
Enjoy yourself , the old adage that there are no pockets on a shroud are very real. You never know the day and all that lolly left for relatives to squander coudl have been enjoyed by yourself.
LOL. Great adage - never heard it before. I will tell my missus who is obsessed with leaving stuff for the kids.
The best advice is: spend all your money, leave them the property
Second best advice: die on the toilet of a heart attack aged 76
Auberon Waugh personally told me that second bit of advice and, oddly enough, it’s not unlike how he died (likewise his own father)
Yep. Neither of the Waughs made old bones.
Bron's longstanding campaign in Private Eye against the late Lord Gowrie ("Britain's first black prime minister") always made me laugh. Apparently it dated back to competition over a girl in their youth.
Black is an intense form of grey isn't it?
Hah, quite so! The "Grey" thing was an abbreviation of Greysteil, a family name.
He was an unusual Thatcherite. Aristo with bow ties and deep interest in the arts. Resigned from Govt as he coudn't live on a cabinet minister's salary.
Just as the EU was blamed for most things before Brexit the reverse is now happening .
I can imagine it’s frustrating for Leavers but what goes around comes around !
This blame-Brexit campaign is possibly going to succeed as well
I used to scoff at predictions we would Rejoin. Now I am not so sure at all. Tho the Rejoiners need to act fairly fast - next 5-10 years - because the UK will in time pivot further away from the EU, as it necessarily develops a new economic model that actually works
This prediction is a bit ghoulish but I think it's sound: no British politician will go anywhere near re-join until Nigel Farage is senile or dead.
First time I’m heard that theory, but I think you have a point. Farage personified Brexit - more than Johnson or Gove or Cummings or anyone else - and he continues to haunt both parties’ fever dreams. He represents an era.
Fair to say that unless he is unlucky, by the time Farage is dead a huge swathe of Leave support will be dead too.
Just as the EU was blamed for most things before Brexit the reverse is now happening .
I can imagine it’s frustrating for Leavers but what goes around comes around !
This blame-Brexit campaign is possibly going to succeed as well
I used to scoff at predictions we would Rejoin. Now I am not so sure at all. Tho the Rejoiners need to act fairly fast - next 5-10 years - because the UK will in time pivot further away from the EU, as it necessarily develops a new economic model that actually works
As shown on TV last night
This gap will inevitably get wider. 80/20 perhaps?
There must come a point when someone is prepared to grasp the nettle and begins the process of reversing the decision. The danger for Starmer is that a renegade from the Tory right might beat him to it. With a resprayed bus they could promise the earth.
Just as the EU was blamed for most things before Brexit the reverse is now happening .
I can imagine it’s frustrating for Leavers but what goes around comes around !
This blame-Brexit campaign is possibly going to succeed as well
I used to scoff at predictions we would Rejoin. Now I am not so sure at all. Tho the Rejoiners need to act fairly fast - next 5-10 years - because the UK will in time pivot further away from the EU, as it necessarily develops a new economic model that actually works
As shown on TV last night
Yep. I can see the polls and I can see the trend. We are possibly heading for Rejoin if the Rejoiners play it cleverly
That said the Remainers have shown crass ineptitude and boorish arrogance in the past, and if they allow people like you to be heard, gloating, sniping and bitterly exulting, they will badly miss the window of opportunity
We left. We were told leaving the EU would be beneficial to the nation. Shouldn't the Leavers who told us to suck up our defeat in 2016 be cracking on with making Brexit work?
From the header: "Fluent and able as he is, if Zahawi were to appear in an Agatha Christie dramatisation, you just know he will be up to no good, if not the actual villain"
Well that is true.
Though it is more because racism and xenophobia are rampant in Christie's works.
Just as the EU was blamed for most things before Brexit the reverse is now happening .
I can imagine it’s frustrating for Leavers but what goes around comes around !
This blame-Brexit campaign is possibly going to succeed as well
I used to scoff at predictions we would Rejoin. Now I am not so sure at all. Tho the Rejoiners need to act fairly fast - next 5-10 years - because the UK will in time pivot further away from the EU, as it necessarily develops a new economic model that actually works
As shown on TV last night
Yep. I can see the polls and I can see the trend. We are possibly heading for Rejoin if the Rejoiners play it cleverly
That said the Remainers have shown crass ineptitude and boorish arrogance in the past, and if they allow people like you to be heard, gloating, sniping and bitterly exulting, they will badly miss the window of opportunity
May I be the Founder-Member of the 'We made the bed, we must lie in it Party'?
‘We’ being the English. Lie away. Just don’t drag everyone else with you.
Just as the EU was blamed for most things before Brexit the reverse is now happening .
I can imagine it’s frustrating for Leavers but what goes around comes around !
This blame-Brexit campaign is possibly going to succeed as well
I used to scoff at predictions we would Rejoin. Now I am not so sure at all. Tho the Rejoiners need to act fairly fast - next 5-10 years - because the UK will in time pivot further away from the EU, as it necessarily develops a new economic model that actually works
As shown on TV last night
Yep. I can see the polls and I can see the trend. We are possibly heading for Rejoin if the Rejoiners play it cleverly
That said the Remainers have shown crass ineptitude and boorish arrogance in the past, and if they allow people like you to be heard, gloating, sniping and bitterly exulting, they will badly miss the window of opportunity
We left. We were told leaving the EU would be beneficial to the nation. Shouldn't the Leavers who told us to suck up our defeat in 2016 be cracking on with making Brexit work?
Mr. Dickson, it was a UK vote, in which all citizens were able to vote.
In the same way the Scottish decided to stay in the UK.
Edited extra bit: do you think Scotland, England, Wales, and Northern Ireland should *all* have to vote for a change in foreign policy/treaties for the change to go ahead?
Clinton lying hardly makes him unique amongst US politicians. I don’t think this thesis stands up to much scrutiny.
No, I think Clinton did have a malign effect.
Christopher Hitchens devoted an entire book to the Clintons' duplicity - "No-one Left to Lie to".
The Clintons were one of his pet hates, along with Kissinger, Mother Theresa and Benedict XVI.
Clinton was certainly a bad man but the attack on truth is probably more associated with George Bush and "truthiness".
Standing on the shoulders...
Yes but if you pursue that thought, you can go back to Reagan and Contragate and further through various presidents. It was under Bush that it became a deliberate tactic rather than a tool of cynical convenience.
Wonder how this compares with other European countries?
Following the Russian invasion of Ukraine in February 2022 and the subsequent economic sanctions on trade, UK trade with Russia has decreased substantially.
Imports of goods from Russia have fallen to £18 million in November 2022, a decrease of 98.2% compared with the monthly average from the 12 months to February 2022, and exports of goods to Russia have decreased to £57 million, a fall of 77.4%.
Sunak had to appoint Braverman to a key Cabinet post given it was her backing of him rather than Boris that helped ensure he faced no contest with the membership. Raab was a key Sunak supporter in both leadership elections and got his reward.
Italy has a more rightwing government than the UK now, Meloni is much more to GB news' flavour than Sunak
'Our government isn't as right wing as a bunch of actual fascists' doesn't quite do it for me as a statement.
And once he had the job he owed Braverman and Raab nothing. What could they have done? As I say, he lacks the killer instinct.
On a point of PB pedantry, a postilion is a particular member of a crew for a horsedrawn coach or similar; and one wouldn't use a whole horse team and coach to deliver an envelope (unless, of course, the postilion was otherwise sitting around in the stables doing nothing and available for errands). A licensed porter would be another option in the London of the Zeitgeist in question ...
I am in the Lakes. I expect nothing less than a coach and four from Rees-Mogg.
Just as the EU was blamed for most things before Brexit the reverse is now happening .
I can imagine it’s frustrating for Leavers but what goes around comes around !
This blame-Brexit campaign is possibly going to succeed as well
I used to scoff at predictions we would Rejoin. Now I am not so sure at all. Tho the Rejoiners need to act fairly fast - next 5-10 years - because the UK will in time pivot further away from the EU, as it necessarily develops a new economic model that actually works
As shown on TV last night
Yep. I can see the polls and I can see the trend. We are possibly heading for Rejoin if the Rejoiners play it cleverly
That said the Remainers have shown crass ineptitude and boorish arrogance in the past, and if they allow people like you to be heard, gloating, sniping and bitterly exulting, they will badly miss the window of opportunity
We left. We were told leaving the EU would be beneficial to the nation. Shouldn't the Leavers who told us to suck up our defeat in 2016 be cracking on with making Brexit work?
Everybody should.
Brexit's fucked. Lost cause. It's like one of those doddery, blind 19 year old Labradors that people can't bear to have euthanised because they loved its younger self so very much. So they persist with cocktails of drugs and 2 grand vet bills while kidding themselves they see signs of improvement as they clean up yet more liquid shit.
That said the Remainers have shown crass ineptitude and boorish arrogance in the past, and if they allow people like you to be heard, gloating, sniping and bitterly exulting, they will badly miss the window of opportunity
After the months of gloating, sniping and bitterly exulting from Brexiteers after the vote, be prepared for 30 years of "we told you so"
I think the phrase, suck it up, is appropriate here
Just as the EU was blamed for most things before Brexit the reverse is now happening .
I can imagine it’s frustrating for Leavers but what goes around comes around !
This blame-Brexit campaign is possibly going to succeed as well
I used to scoff at predictions we would Rejoin. Now I am not so sure at all. Tho the Rejoiners need to act fairly fast - next 5-10 years - because the UK will in time pivot further away from the EU, as it necessarily develops a new economic model that actually works
As shown on TV last night
Yep. I can see the polls and I can see the trend. We are possibly heading for Rejoin if the Rejoiners play it cleverly
That said the Remainers have shown crass ineptitude and boorish arrogance in the past, and if they allow people like you to be heard, gloating, sniping and bitterly exulting, they will badly miss the window of opportunity
Which is why one reading of Starmer's words is that he's playing it just right.
Don't reopen the debate, but wait in the confidence it will open by itself.
What's the line about good lawyers never asking questions unless they know the answer?
Just as the EU was blamed for most things before Brexit the reverse is now happening .
I can imagine it’s frustrating for Leavers but what goes around comes around !
This blame-Brexit campaign is possibly going to succeed as well
I used to scoff at predictions we would Rejoin. Now I am not so sure at all. Tho the Rejoiners need to act fairly fast - next 5-10 years - because the UK will in time pivot further away from the EU, as it necessarily develops a new economic model that actually works
As shown on TV last night
Yep. I can see the polls and I can see the trend. We are possibly heading for Rejoin if the Rejoiners play it cleverly
That said the Remainers have shown crass ineptitude and boorish arrogance in the past, and if they allow people like you to be heard, gloating, sniping and bitterly exulting, they will badly miss the window of opportunity
We left. We were told leaving the EU would be beneficial to the nation. Shouldn't the Leavers who told us to suck up our defeat in 2016 be cracking on with making Brexit work?
Leave made a big mistake by not focussing entirely on sovereignty and democracy. They should have said, "Yes, it will be difficult; there will be blood, sweat and tears, but we will have our pride and be an independent nation," or suchlike, rather than claiming that Brexit would deliver economic benefits. That would have been an honest win, and then they could have got to work on mitigating the economic fallout rather than trying to pretend that it doesn't exist and thus making it worse.
Leave made a big mistake by not focussing entirely on sovereignty and democracy. They should have said, "Yes, it will be difficult; there will be blood, sweat and tears, but we will have our pride and be an independent nation," or suchlike
Just as the EU was blamed for most things before Brexit the reverse is now happening .
I can imagine it’s frustrating for Leavers but what goes around comes around !
This blame-Brexit campaign is possibly going to succeed as well
I used to scoff at predictions we would Rejoin. Now I am not so sure at all. Tho the Rejoiners need to act fairly fast - next 5-10 years - because the UK will in time pivot further away from the EU, as it necessarily develops a new economic model that actually works
As shown on TV last night
Yep. I can see the polls and I can see the trend. We are possibly heading for Rejoin if the Rejoiners play it cleverly
That said the Remainers have shown crass ineptitude and boorish arrogance in the past, and if they allow people like you to be heard, gloating, sniping and bitterly exulting, they will badly miss the window of opportunity
Which is why one reading of Starmer's words is that he's playing it just right.
Don't reopen the debate, but wait in the confidence it will open by itself.
What's the line about good lawyers never asking questions unless they know the answer?
Which is what Sturgeon is getting wrong about independence - she shouldn't be asking the question until she's sure of the answer.....
Just as the EU was blamed for most things before Brexit the reverse is now happening .
I can imagine it’s frustrating for Leavers but what goes around comes around !
This blame-Brexit campaign is possibly going to succeed as well
I used to scoff at predictions we would Rejoin. Now I am not so sure at all. Tho the Rejoiners need to act fairly fast - next 5-10 years - because the UK will in time pivot further away from the EU, as it necessarily develops a new economic model that actually works
As shown on TV last night
Yep. I can see the polls and I can see the trend. We are possibly heading for Rejoin if the Rejoiners play it cleverly
That said the Remainers have shown crass ineptitude and boorish arrogance in the past, and if they allow people like you to be heard, gloating, sniping and bitterly exulting, they will badly miss the window of opportunity
We left. We were told leaving the EU would be beneficial to the nation. Shouldn't the Leavers who told us to suck up our defeat in 2016 be cracking on with making Brexit work?
Leave made a big mistake by not focussing entirely on sovereignty and democracy. They should have said, "Yes, it will be difficult; there will be blood, sweat and tears, but we will have our pride and be an independent nation," or suchlike, rather than claiming that Brexit would deliver economic benefits. That would have been an honest win, and then they could have got to work on mitigating the economic fallout rather than trying to pretend that it doesn't exist and thus making it worse.
Leave would have lost if they said that. No way they would have won if people thought they would be worse off.
Same quandary facing IndyScot campaign. Do they copy Leave campaign and dishonestly claim economic benefits or fess up and say sovereignty is worth the pain (and lose)?
It might not be Brexit, but it almost certainly is.
Peak UK car production was in 2016...
Some people thought that Brexit might have a negative impact on the UK car industry, but the PB 'experts' assured us that was not the case.
German car production was 5.7 million vehicles in 2016. It was 3.3 million vehicles in 2021. I suppose that was due to Brexit as well?
French car production was 2.1 million vehicles in 2016. It was 1.3 million vehicles in 2021. Indeed just like the UK their car production is now down to the numbers seen in the 1950s. Brexit?
Just as the EU was blamed for most things before Brexit the reverse is now happening .
I can imagine it’s frustrating for Leavers but what goes around comes around !
This blame-Brexit campaign is possibly going to succeed as well
I used to scoff at predictions we would Rejoin. Now I am not so sure at all. Tho the Rejoiners need to act fairly fast - next 5-10 years - because the UK will in time pivot further away from the EU, as it necessarily develops a new economic model that actually works
As shown on TV last night
Yep. I can see the polls and I can see the trend. We are possibly heading for Rejoin if the Rejoiners play it cleverly
That said the Remainers have shown crass ineptitude and boorish arrogance in the past, and if they allow people like you to be heard, gloating, sniping and bitterly exulting, they will badly miss the window of opportunity
We left. We were told leaving the EU would be beneficial to the nation. Shouldn't the Leavers who told us to suck up our defeat in 2016 be cracking on with making Brexit work?
Everybody should.
Brexit's fucked. Lost cause. It's like one of those doddery, blind 19 year old Labradors that people can't bear to have euthanised because they loved its younger self so very much. So they persist with cocktails of drugs and 2 grand vet bills while kidding themselves they see signs of improvement as they clean up yet more liquid shit.
Nope. Brexit is a part of history, a given fact, an axiom. What we do from here is for everyone to decide. Everyone does want to make the country better than it is at the moment, right?
Just as the EU was blamed for most things before Brexit the reverse is now happening .
I can imagine it’s frustrating for Leavers but what goes around comes around !
This blame-Brexit campaign is possibly going to succeed as well
I used to scoff at predictions we would Rejoin. Now I am not so sure at all. Tho the Rejoiners need to act fairly fast - next 5-10 years - because the UK will in time pivot further away from the EU, as it necessarily develops a new economic model that actually works
As shown on TV last night
Yep. I can see the polls and I can see the trend. We are possibly heading for Rejoin if the Rejoiners play it cleverly
That said the Remainers have shown crass ineptitude and boorish arrogance in the past, and if they allow people like you to be heard, gloating, sniping and bitterly exulting, they will badly miss the window of opportunity
We should only Rejoin if it involves membership of the Euro and Schengen so we really humiliate the Brexiteers.
I don't want to Rejoin if it doesn't include membership of the Euro and Schengen.
“The result is the Home Office losing migrant children, children, in its care who we must suppose have been trafficked for purposes that don’t bear thinking about.”
I have a strong suspicion most (all?) of these “children” are Albanian lads who came here with the express intention of working in cannabis farms, or dealing drugs on county lines, and have absconded to do exactly that
If we had a more effective government they wouldn’t be here in the first place. That’s what we should be complaining about
So you are saying that these teenagers are being Trafficked? And therefore legitimate asylum seekers?
If the government did anything remotely efficient and sensible to deter the boats, like instant deportation to Rwanda etc, you and @cyclefree and others of your pathetic ilk would be up in arms about THAT
It’s laughable. Then you moan about the decay of the nation
Oi!
I have actually come up with some suggested policies to address the migration issue, which I seem to recall you praised at the time. Bleating about others while coming up with nothing useful of your own and then adding in "oh woe is the nation" is your speciality, dear one. Endlessly entertaining but a bit pointless.
And your instant deportation to Rwanda won't work because that is not what Rwanda has agreed to. So try again.
It might not be Brexit, but it almost certainly is.
Peak UK car production was in 2016...
Some people thought that Brexit might have a negative impact on the UK car industry, but the PB 'experts' assured us that was not the case.
German car production was 5.7 million vehicles in 2016. It was 3.3 million vehicles in 2021. I suppose that was due to Brexit as well?
French car production was 2.1 million vehicles in 2016. It was 1.3 million vehicles in 2021. Indeed just like the UK their car production is now down to the numbers seen in the 1950s. Brexit?
To which my response, which you seem to have inexplicably overlooked, was;
"Those aren't the latest figures though. While UK car production in 2022 has dropped by another 10% since 2021, German car production, for example, has risen by 11%.
Covid and the associated semiconductor shortage hit everyone hard, but the others are slowly recovering while we still seem to be in a tailspin."
Our country cannot recover until the Brexiteers stop deluding themselves. We may be in for a long wait.
Just as the EU was blamed for most things before Brexit the reverse is now happening .
I can imagine it’s frustrating for Leavers but what goes around comes around !
This blame-Brexit campaign is possibly going to succeed as well
I used to scoff at predictions we would Rejoin. Now I am not so sure at all. Tho the Rejoiners need to act fairly fast - next 5-10 years - because the UK will in time pivot further away from the EU, as it necessarily develops a new economic model that actually works
As shown on TV last night
Yep. I can see the polls and I can see the trend. We are possibly heading for Rejoin if the Rejoiners play it cleverly
That said the Remainers have shown crass ineptitude and boorish arrogance in the past, and if they allow people like you to be heard, gloating, sniping and bitterly exulting, they will badly miss the window of opportunity
Based on the latest joint Franco-German statement from the Elysee Palace earlier in the week, by the time we look like rejoining, the EU will be far closer to what we Leavers warned about. QMV for Foreign and Security policy and taxation via passerelle clauses in the Lisbon Treaty and EU wide constituencies for elections. Good luck selling that to the public.
Just as the EU was blamed for most things before Brexit the reverse is now happening .
I can imagine it’s frustrating for Leavers but what goes around comes around !
This blame-Brexit campaign is possibly going to succeed as well
I used to scoff at predictions we would Rejoin. Now I am not so sure at all. Tho the Rejoiners need to act fairly fast - next 5-10 years - because the UK will in time pivot further away from the EU, as it necessarily develops a new economic model that actually works
As shown on TV last night
Yep. I can see the polls and I can see the trend. We are possibly heading for Rejoin if the Rejoiners play it cleverly
That said the Remainers have shown crass ineptitude and boorish arrogance in the past, and if they allow people like you to be heard, gloating, sniping and bitterly exulting, they will badly miss the window of opportunity
We left. We were told leaving the EU would be beneficial to the nation. Shouldn't the Leavers who told us to suck up our defeat in 2016 be cracking on with making Brexit work?
Everybody should.
Brexit's fucked. Lost cause. It's like one of those doddery, blind 19 year old Labradors that people can't bear to have euthanised because they loved its younger self so very much. So they persist with cocktails of drugs and 2 grand vet bills while kidding themselves they see signs of improvement as they clean up yet more liquid shit.
Nope. Brexit is a part of history, a given fact, an axiom. What we do from here is for everyone to decide. Everyone does want to make the country better than it is at the moment, right?
Does that include Brejoin, even Brejoin closer than before? (NB not whether we should, but do you see that as an option on the list, even it it's one to reject?)
“The result is the Home Office losing migrant children, children, in its care who we must suppose have been trafficked for purposes that don’t bear thinking about.”
I have a strong suspicion most (all?) of these “children” are Albanian lads who came here with the express intention of working in cannabis farms, or dealing drugs on county lines, and have absconded to do exactly that
If we had a more effective government they wouldn’t be here in the first place. That’s what we should be complaining about
So you are saying that these teenagers are being Trafficked? And therefore legitimate asylum seekers?
If the government did anything remotely efficient and sensible to deter the boats, like instant deportation to Rwanda etc, you and @cyclefree and others of your pathetic ilk would be up in arms about THAT
It’s laughable. Then you moan about the decay of the nation
Oi!
I have actually come up with some suggested policies to address the migration issue, which I seem to recall you praised at the time. Bleating about others while coming up with nothing useful of your own and then adding in "oh woe is the nation" is your speciality, dear one. Endlessly entertaining but a bit pointless.
And your instant deportation to Rwanda won't work because that is not what Rwanda has agreed to. So try again.
I don't think we can actually deport Leon. He's a British national.
“The result is the Home Office losing migrant children, children, in its care who we must suppose have been trafficked for purposes that don’t bear thinking about.”
I have a strong suspicion most (all?) of these “children” are Albanian lads who came here with the express intention of working in cannabis farms, or dealing drugs on county lines, and have absconded to do exactly that
If we had a more effective government they wouldn’t be here in the first place. That’s what we should be complaining about
So you are saying that these teenagers are being Trafficked? And therefore legitimate asylum seekers?
If the government did anything remotely efficient and sensible to deter the boats, like instant deportation to Rwanda etc, you and @cyclefree and others of your pathetic ilk would be up in arms about THAT
It’s laughable. Then you moan about the decay of the nation
Oi!
I have actually come up with some suggested policies to address the migration issue, which I seem to recall you praised at the time. Bleating about others while coming up with nothing useful of your own and then adding in "oh woe is the nation" is your speciality, dear one. Endlessly entertaining but a bit pointless.
And your instant deportation to Rwanda won't work because that is not what Rwanda has agreed to. So try again.
I don't think we can actually deport Leon. He's a British national.
“The result is the Home Office losing migrant children, children, in its care who we must suppose have been trafficked for purposes that don’t bear thinking about.”
I have a strong suspicion most (all?) of these “children” are Albanian lads who came here with the express intention of working in cannabis farms, or dealing drugs on county lines, and have absconded to do exactly that
If we had a more effective government they wouldn’t be here in the first place. That’s what we should be complaining about
So you are saying that these teenagers are being Trafficked? And therefore legitimate asylum seekers?
If the government did anything remotely efficient and sensible to deter the boats, like instant deportation to Rwanda etc, you and @cyclefree and others of your pathetic ilk would be up in arms about THAT
It’s laughable. Then you moan about the decay of the nation
Oi!
I have actually come up with some suggested policies to address the migration issue, which I seem to recall you praised at the time. Bleating about others while coming up with nothing useful of your own and then adding in "oh woe is the nation" is your speciality, dear one. Endlessly entertaining but a bit pointless.
And your instant deportation to Rwanda won't work because that is not what Rwanda has agreed to. So try again.
I don't think we can actually deport Leon. He's a British national.
Just as the EU was blamed for most things before Brexit the reverse is now happening .
I can imagine it’s frustrating for Leavers but what goes around comes around !
This blame-Brexit campaign is possibly going to succeed as well
I used to scoff at predictions we would Rejoin. Now I am not so sure at all. Tho the Rejoiners need to act fairly fast - next 5-10 years - because the UK will in time pivot further away from the EU, as it necessarily develops a new economic model that actually works
As shown on TV last night
Yep. I can see the polls and I can see the trend. We are possibly heading for Rejoin if the Rejoiners play it cleverly
That said the Remainers have shown crass ineptitude and boorish arrogance in the past, and if they allow people like you to be heard, gloating, sniping and bitterly exulting, they will badly miss the window of opportunity
We left. We were told leaving the EU would be beneficial to the nation. Shouldn't the Leavers who told us to suck up our defeat in 2016 be cracking on with making Brexit work?
Everybody should.
Brexit's fucked. Lost cause. It's like one of those doddery, blind 19 year old Labradors that people can't bear to have euthanised because they loved its younger self so very much. So they persist with cocktails of drugs and 2 grand vet bills while kidding themselves they see signs of improvement as they clean up yet more liquid shit.
Nope. Brexit is a part of history, a given fact, an axiom. What we do from here is for everyone to decide. Everyone does want to make the country better than it is at the moment, right?
Does that include Brejoin, even Brejoin closer than before? (NB not whether we should, but do you see that as an option on the list, even it it's one to reject?)
That certainly could be an option, but it would require people to campaign actively for it and extol its benefints, not keep on whinging impotently about losing a vote what is soon to be a decade ago.
And if we're to Rejoin then absolutely it should be as full members, including the euro and Schengen and the EU army. The half-in status we previously had was no good for either side.
That said the Remainers have shown crass ineptitude and boorish arrogance in the past, and if they allow people like you to be heard, gloating, sniping and bitterly exulting, they will badly miss the window of opportunity
After the months of gloating, sniping and bitterly exulting from Brexiteers after the vote, be prepared for 30 years of "we told you so"
I think the phrase, suck it up, is appropriate here
We haven’t rejoined yet, and it is still a pretty long shot, given the obstacles, but it is less unlikely than I thought
And it will be impossible if swing voters are exposed to boring gloating Remoaner incels like you who are determined to lecture Leavers on their rank stupidity then ask for their vote
A period of silence from you, of about ten years duration, would be well advised
Just as the EU was blamed for most things before Brexit the reverse is now happening .
I can imagine it’s frustrating for Leavers but what goes around comes around !
This blame-Brexit campaign is possibly going to succeed as well
I used to scoff at predictions we would Rejoin. Now I am not so sure at all. Tho the Rejoiners need to act fairly fast - next 5-10 years - because the UK will in time pivot further away from the EU, as it necessarily develops a new economic model that actually works
As shown on TV last night
Yep. I can see the polls and I can see the trend. We are possibly heading for Rejoin if the Rejoiners play it cleverly
That said the Remainers have shown crass ineptitude and boorish arrogance in the past, and if they allow people like you to be heard, gloating, sniping and bitterly exulting, they will badly miss the window of opportunity
We left. We were told leaving the EU would be beneficial to the nation. Shouldn't the Leavers who told us to suck up our defeat in 2016 be cracking on with making Brexit work?
Everybody should.
Brexit's fucked. Lost cause. It's like one of those doddery, blind 19 year old Labradors that people can't bear to have euthanised because they loved its younger self so very much. So they persist with cocktails of drugs and 2 grand vet bills while kidding themselves they see signs of improvement as they clean up yet more liquid shit.
Nope. Brexit is a part of history, a given fact, an axiom. What we do from here is for everyone to decide. Everyone does want to make the country better than it is at the moment, right?
Does that include Brejoin, even Brejoin closer than before? (NB not whether we should, but do you see that as an option on the list, even it it's one to reject?)
It was an option from the day we actually left. I argued strongly that we had to complete the process as per the referendum but as soon as that was done then it is fair game again for everyone to campaign as they see fit.
I still don't think it will happen and would of course campaign against it but it has to be on the list for future direction or we are no better than the politicians who spent years preventing a vote on leaving in the first place.
“The result is the Home Office losing migrant children, children, in its care who we must suppose have been trafficked for purposes that don’t bear thinking about.”
I have a strong suspicion most (all?) of these “children” are Albanian lads who came here with the express intention of working in cannabis farms, or dealing drugs on county lines, and have absconded to do exactly that
If we had a more effective government they wouldn’t be here in the first place. That’s what we should be complaining about
So you are saying that these teenagers are being Trafficked? And therefore legitimate asylum seekers?
If the government did anything remotely efficient and sensible to deter the boats, like instant deportation to Rwanda etc, you and @cyclefree and others of your pathetic ilk would be up in arms about THAT
It’s laughable. Then you moan about the decay of the nation
Oi!
I have actually come up with some suggested policies to address the migration issue, which I seem to recall you praised at the time. Bleating about others while coming up with nothing useful of your own and then adding in "oh woe is the nation" is your speciality, dear one. Endlessly entertaining but a bit pointless.
And your instant deportation to Rwanda won't work because that is not what Rwanda has agreed to. So try again.
I don't think we can actually deport Leon. He's a British national.
Just as the EU was blamed for most things before Brexit the reverse is now happening .
I can imagine it’s frustrating for Leavers but what goes around comes around !
This blame-Brexit campaign is possibly going to succeed as well
I used to scoff at predictions we would Rejoin. Now I am not so sure at all. Tho the Rejoiners need to act fairly fast - next 5-10 years - because the UK will in time pivot further away from the EU, as it necessarily develops a new economic model that actually works
As shown on TV last night
Yep. I can see the polls and I can see the trend. We are possibly heading for Rejoin if the Rejoiners play it cleverly
That said the Remainers have shown crass ineptitude and boorish arrogance in the past, and if they allow people like you to be heard, gloating, sniping and bitterly exulting, they will badly miss the window of opportunity
May I be the Founder-Member of the 'We made the bed, we must lie in it Party'?
“The result is the Home Office losing migrant children, children, in its care who we must suppose have been trafficked for purposes that don’t bear thinking about.”
I have a strong suspicion most (all?) of these “children” are Albanian lads who came here with the express intention of working in cannabis farms, or dealing drugs on county lines, and have absconded to do exactly that
If we had a more effective government they wouldn’t be here in the first place. That’s what we should be complaining about
So you are saying that these teenagers are being Trafficked? And therefore legitimate asylum seekers?
If the government did anything remotely efficient and sensible to deter the boats, like instant deportation to Rwanda etc, you and @cyclefree and others of your pathetic ilk would be up in arms about THAT
It’s laughable. Then you moan about the decay of the nation
Oi!
I have actually come up with some suggested policies to address the migration issue, which I seem to recall you praised at the time. Bleating about others while coming up with nothing useful of your own and then adding in "oh woe is the nation" is your speciality, dear one. Endlessly entertaining but a bit pointless.
And your instant deportation to Rwanda won't work because that is not what Rwanda has agreed to. So try again.
I don't think we can actually deport Leon. He's a British national.
So was Shamima Begum.
We missed a trick with Boris, didn't we, when he still had US citizenship?
“The result is the Home Office losing migrant children, children, in its care who we must suppose have been trafficked for purposes that don’t bear thinking about.”
I have a strong suspicion most (all?) of these “children” are Albanian lads who came here with the express intention of working in cannabis farms, or dealing drugs on county lines, and have absconded to do exactly that
If we had a more effective government they wouldn’t be here in the first place. That’s what we should be complaining about
So you are saying that these teenagers are being Trafficked? And therefore legitimate asylum seekers?
If the government did anything remotely efficient and sensible to deter the boats, like instant deportation to Rwanda etc, you and @cyclefree and others of your pathetic ilk would be up in arms about THAT
It’s laughable. Then you moan about the decay of the nation
Oi!
I have actually come up with some suggested policies to address the migration issue, which I seem to recall you praised at the time. Bleating about others while coming up with nothing useful of your own and then adding in "oh woe is the nation" is your speciality, dear one. Endlessly entertaining but a bit pointless.
And your instant deportation to Rwanda won't work because that is not what Rwanda has agreed to. So try again.
I don't think we can actually deport Leon. He's a British national.
Just as the EU was blamed for most things before Brexit the reverse is now happening .
I can imagine it’s frustrating for Leavers but what goes around comes around !
This blame-Brexit campaign is possibly going to succeed as well
I used to scoff at predictions we would Rejoin. Now I am not so sure at all. Tho the Rejoiners need to act fairly fast - next 5-10 years - because the UK will in time pivot further away from the EU, as it necessarily develops a new economic model that actually works
As shown on TV last night
Yep. I can see the polls and I can see the trend. We are possibly heading for Rejoin if the Rejoiners play it cleverly
That said the Remainers have shown crass ineptitude and boorish arrogance in the past, and if they allow people like you to be heard, gloating, sniping and bitterly exulting, they will badly miss the window of opportunity
We left. We were told leaving the EU would be beneficial to the nation. Shouldn't the Leavers who told us to suck up our defeat in 2016 be cracking on with making Brexit work?
Everybody should.
Brexit's fucked. Lost cause. It's like one of those doddery, blind 19 year old Labradors that people can't bear to have euthanised because they loved its younger self so very much. So they persist with cocktails of drugs and 2 grand vet bills while kidding themselves they see signs of improvement as they clean up yet more liquid shit.
I’m paying that kind of money and the dog is aged 3. Turns out the mutt has fits
I might develop a new metaphor. Brexit is like having a baby. An epileptic baby
I think Sunak is intelligent, industrious, level-headed, and a nice guy. However, he is not a man manager - possibly too "nice" to give hard messages - and personally gets involved in too much of the detail ( running his own models, personally reviewing the evidence etc) when he should really hold others to account for the same and select/build a good team.
He also thinks competent and measured administration is enough and doesn't give enough weight to the politics - lacking sharp political instincts and PR judgement - and is very risk averse, and his penchant for playing it safe means he could be overtaken by events.
He's miles better than Truss or Johnson, and is learning on the job, but the risk is he doesn't get credit for what he does get right and events will rapidly overtake him.
I'd still stick with him though. I've got no doubt he's working hard to fix things but it won't save the Tories.
I'd certainly stick with him, CR, if only because if the Tories change the nurse (again) for sure we'll finish up with something worse.
Your assessment of S is similar to mine. He won't win the next GE, but he might prevent a meltdown. I'd buy that if I were a Conservative supporter. (In case you hadn't noticed, I'm not.)
Yes, I think that's exactly right, Peter.
Perhaps you should wonder why he's so popular with people who wish Conservatism ill.
Yes it was discussed extensively yesterday. HYUFD can explain why it's not an issue really.
You need to add the UKIP/Reform score to the Tories but not the Green (or Lib Dem) scores to Labour.
+
100% of DKs will vote Tory, plus swing back
=
Tory landslide
You've forgotten the 20pp that needs to be removed from the Labour share once everybody listens to Sunak and discovers that Starmer served in Corbyn's Shadow Cabinet and is therefore a clear and present danger to the UK.
Just as the EU was blamed for most things before Brexit the reverse is now happening .
I can imagine it’s frustrating for Leavers but what goes around comes around !
This blame-Brexit campaign is possibly going to succeed as well
I used to scoff at predictions we would Rejoin. Now I am not so sure at all. Tho the Rejoiners need to act fairly fast - next 5-10 years - because the UK will in time pivot further away from the EU, as it necessarily develops a new economic model that actually works
As shown on TV last night
Yep. I can see the polls and I can see the trend. We are possibly heading for Rejoin if the Rejoiners play it cleverly
That said the Remainers have shown crass ineptitude and boorish arrogance in the past, and if they allow people like you to be heard, gloating, sniping and bitterly exulting, they will badly miss the window of opportunity
We left. We were told leaving the EU would be beneficial to the nation. Shouldn't the Leavers who told us to suck up our defeat in 2016 be cracking on with making Brexit work?
Everybody should.
Brexit's fucked. Lost cause. It's like one of those doddery, blind 19 year old Labradors that people can't bear to have euthanised because they loved its younger self so very much. So they persist with cocktails of drugs and 2 grand vet bills while kidding themselves they see signs of improvement as they clean up yet more liquid shit.
Nope. Brexit is a part of history, a given fact, an axiom. What we do from here is for everyone to decide. Everyone does want to make the country better than it is at the moment, right?
Does that include Brejoin, even Brejoin closer than before? (NB not whether we should, but do you see that as an option on the list, even it it's one to reject?)
That certainly could be an option, but it would require people to campaign actively for it and extol its benefints, not keep on whinging impotently about losing a vote what is soon to be a decade ago.
And if we're to Rejoin then absolutely it should be as full members, including the euro and Schengen and the EU army. The half-in status we previously had was no good for either side.
Yep. That was actually my opinion at the time of the referendum
I narrowly voted Leave but if we’d voted Remain then I would have said: that’s it then. All in. Full on Federal Union. Euro, Schengen, EU army
Might as well enjoy the fruits of being a superpower if you have to suffer the pains of surrendering so much sovereignty
Yes it was discussed extensively yesterday. HYUFD can explain why it's not an issue really.
You need to add the UKIP/Reform score to the Tories but not the Green (or Lib Dem) scores to Labour.
+
100% of DKs will vote Tory, plus swing back
=
Tory landslide
You've forgotten the 20pp that needs to be removed from the Labour share once everybody listens to Sunak and discovers that Starmer served in Corbyn's Shadow Cabinet and is therefore a clear and present danger to the UK.
Nobody in the UK fears Starmer, that is why he has a good chance of winning.
“The result is the Home Office losing migrant children, children, in its care who we must suppose have been trafficked for purposes that don’t bear thinking about.”
I have a strong suspicion most (all?) of these “children” are Albanian lads who came here with the express intention of working in cannabis farms, or dealing drugs on county lines, and have absconded to do exactly that
If we had a more effective government they wouldn’t be here in the first place. That’s what we should be complaining about
So you are saying that these teenagers are being Trafficked? And therefore legitimate asylum seekers?
If the government did anything remotely efficient and sensible to deter the boats, like instant deportation to Rwanda etc, you and @cyclefree and others of your pathetic ilk would be up in arms about THAT
It’s laughable. Then you moan about the decay of the nation
Oi!
I have actually come up with some suggested policies to address the migration issue, which I seem to recall you praised at the time. Bleating about others while coming up with nothing useful of your own and then adding in "oh woe is the nation" is your speciality, dear one. Endlessly entertaining but a bit pointless.
And your instant deportation to Rwanda won't work because that is not what Rwanda has agreed to. So try again.
What were the policies?
I like brutally enforcing 100k fines on scumbag employers. And giving half to the undocumented workers who give evidence. The “black” economy would evaporate in seconds…
Just as the EU was blamed for most things before Brexit the reverse is now happening .
I can imagine it’s frustrating for Leavers but what goes around comes around !
This blame-Brexit campaign is possibly going to succeed as well
I used to scoff at predictions we would Rejoin. Now I am not so sure at all. Tho the Rejoiners need to act fairly fast - next 5-10 years - because the UK will in time pivot further away from the EU, as it necessarily develops a new economic model that actually works
As shown on TV last night
Yep. I can see the polls and I can see the trend. We are possibly heading for Rejoin if the Rejoiners play it cleverly
That said the Remainers have shown crass ineptitude and boorish arrogance in the past, and if they allow people like you to be heard, gloating, sniping and bitterly exulting, they will badly miss the window of opportunity
We should only Rejoin if it involves membership of the Euro and Schengen so we really humiliate the Brexiteers.
I don't want to Rejoin if it doesn't include membership of the Euro and Schengen.
Also we should join an EU army to combat Putin.
Then you mught as well admit you don't want to rejoin period.
Just as the EU was blamed for most things before Brexit the reverse is now happening .
I can imagine it’s frustrating for Leavers but what goes around comes around !
This blame-Brexit campaign is possibly going to succeed as well
I used to scoff at predictions we would Rejoin. Now I am not so sure at all. Tho the Rejoiners need to act fairly fast - next 5-10 years - because the UK will in time pivot further away from the EU, as it necessarily develops a new economic model that actually works
As shown on TV last night
Yep. I can see the polls and I can see the trend. We are possibly heading for Rejoin if the Rejoiners play it cleverly
That said the Remainers have shown crass ineptitude and boorish arrogance in the past, and if they allow people like you to be heard, gloating, sniping and bitterly exulting, they will badly miss the window of opportunity
We left. We were told leaving the EU would be beneficial to the nation. Shouldn't the Leavers who told us to suck up our defeat in 2016 be cracking on with making Brexit work?
Everybody should.
Brexit's fucked. Lost cause. It's like one of those doddery, blind 19 year old Labradors that people can't bear to have euthanised because they loved its younger self so very much. So they persist with cocktails of drugs and 2 grand vet bills while kidding themselves they see signs of improvement as they clean up yet more liquid shit.
That labrador ain't Brexit, it's Britain. We'd best hope that something can be done, because rejoining the EU (aka amputating the poor beasts legs) is not going to do it.
Just as the EU was blamed for most things before Brexit the reverse is now happening .
I can imagine it’s frustrating for Leavers but what goes around comes around !
This blame-Brexit campaign is possibly going to succeed as well
I used to scoff at predictions we would Rejoin. Now I am not so sure at all. Tho the Rejoiners need to act fairly fast - next 5-10 years - because the UK will in time pivot further away from the EU, as it necessarily develops a new economic model that actually works
As shown on TV last night
Yep. I can see the polls and I can see the trend. We are possibly heading for Rejoin if the Rejoiners play it cleverly
That said the Remainers have shown crass ineptitude and boorish arrogance in the past, and if they allow people like you to be heard, gloating, sniping and bitterly exulting, they will badly miss the window of opportunity
Based on the latest joint Franco-German statement from the Elysee Palace earlier in the week, by the time we look like rejoining, the EU will be far closer to what we Leavers warned about. QMV for Foreign and Security policy and taxation via passerelle clauses in the Lisbon Treaty and EU wide constituencies for elections. Good luck selling that to the public.
Another problem would be that the UK would, presumably, be expected to be a net contributor again. Thus membership would come with a bill. Not great, presentationally.
Just as the EU was blamed for most things before Brexit the reverse is now happening .
I can imagine it’s frustrating for Leavers but what goes around comes around !
This blame-Brexit campaign is possibly going to succeed as well
I used to scoff at predictions we would Rejoin. Now I am not so sure at all. Tho the Rejoiners need to act fairly fast - next 5-10 years - because the UK will in time pivot further away from the EU, as it necessarily develops a new economic model that actually works
As shown on TV last night
Yep. I can see the polls and I can see the trend. We are possibly heading for Rejoin if the Rejoiners play it cleverly
That said the Remainers have shown crass ineptitude and boorish arrogance in the past, and if they allow people like you to be heard, gloating, sniping and bitterly exulting, they will badly miss the window of opportunity
We should only Rejoin if it involves membership of the Euro and Schengen so we really humiliate the Brexiteers.
I don't want to Rejoin if it doesn't include membership of the Euro and Schengen.
Also we should join an EU army to combat Putin.
Then you mught as well admit you don't want to rejoin period.
This behind-the-scenes story on the Leopard-Abrams tango confirms to my mind that the biggest fallout from this affair will not be any (surely short-lived) reputational damage to Germany, but rather a severe blow to the idea of European strategic autonomy.
Just as the EU was blamed for most things before Brexit the reverse is now happening .
I can imagine it’s frustrating for Leavers but what goes around comes around !
This blame-Brexit campaign is possibly going to succeed as well
I used to scoff at predictions we would Rejoin. Now I am not so sure at all. Tho the Rejoiners need to act fairly fast - next 5-10 years - because the UK will in time pivot further away from the EU, as it necessarily develops a new economic model that actually works
As shown on TV last night
Yep. I can see the polls and I can see the trend. We are possibly heading for Rejoin if the Rejoiners play it cleverly
That said the Remainers have shown crass ineptitude and boorish arrogance in the past, and if they allow people like you to be heard, gloating, sniping and bitterly exulting, they will badly miss the window of opportunity
We left. We were told leaving the EU would be beneficial to the nation. Shouldn't the Leavers who told us to suck up our defeat in 2016 be cracking on with making Brexit work?
Everybody should.
Brexit's fucked. Lost cause. It's like one of those doddery, blind 19 year old Labradors that people can't bear to have euthanised because they loved its younger self so very much. So they persist with cocktails of drugs and 2 grand vet bills while kidding themselves they see signs of improvement as they clean up yet more liquid shit.
Nope. Brexit is a part of history, a given fact, an axiom. What we do from here is for everyone to decide. Everyone does want to make the country better than it is at the moment, right?
Does that include Brejoin, even Brejoin closer than before? (NB not whether we should, but do you see that as an option on the list, even it it's one to reject?)
That certainly could be an option, but it would require people to campaign actively for it and extol its benefints, not keep on whinging impotently about losing a vote what is soon to be a decade ago.
And if we're to Rejoin then absolutely it should be as full members, including the euro and Schengen and the EU army. The half-in status we previously had was no good for either side.
Yep. That was actually my opinion at the time of the referendum
I narrowly voted Leave but if we’d voted Remain then I would have said: that’s it then. All in. Full on Federal Union. Euro, Schengen, EU army
Might as well enjoy the fruits of being a superpower if you have to suffer the pains of surrendering so much sovereignty
So if we have another vote, and collectively vote Brejoin, you'll be fully in?
“The result is the Home Office losing migrant children, children, in its care who we must suppose have been trafficked for purposes that don’t bear thinking about.”
I have a strong suspicion most (all?) of these “children” are Albanian lads who came here with the express intention of working in cannabis farms, or dealing drugs on county lines, and have absconded to do exactly that
If we had a more effective government they wouldn’t be here in the first place. That’s what we should be complaining about
So you are saying that these teenagers are being Trafficked? And therefore legitimate asylum seekers?
If the government did anything remotely efficient and sensible to deter the boats, like instant deportation to Rwanda etc, you and @cyclefree and others of your pathetic ilk would be up in arms about THAT
It’s laughable. Then you moan about the decay of the nation
Oi!
I have actually come up with some suggested policies to address the migration issue, which I seem to recall you praised at the time. Bleating about others while coming up with nothing useful of your own and then adding in "oh woe is the nation" is your speciality, dear one. Endlessly entertaining but a bit pointless.
And your instant deportation to Rwanda won't work because that is not what Rwanda has agreed to. So try again.
I don't think we can actually deport Leon. He's a British national.
And Rwanda certainly didn't sign up for him.
Perhaps we could commission @Leon to do one of his flint knapping travel articles about Rwanda. Don't they have interesting chimps or gorillas there? He can post pictures of him watching cricket from next to a pool or whatever and then moan about his stalker friend stealing his work and so on.
Just as the EU was blamed for most things before Brexit the reverse is now happening .
I can imagine it’s frustrating for Leavers but what goes around comes around !
This blame-Brexit campaign is possibly going to succeed as well
I used to scoff at predictions we would Rejoin. Now I am not so sure at all. Tho the Rejoiners need to act fairly fast - next 5-10 years - because the UK will in time pivot further away from the EU, as it necessarily develops a new economic model that actually works
As shown on TV last night
Yep. I can see the polls and I can see the trend. We are possibly heading for Rejoin if the Rejoiners play it cleverly
That said the Remainers have shown crass ineptitude and boorish arrogance in the past, and if they allow people like you to be heard, gloating, sniping and bitterly exulting, they will badly miss the window of opportunity
We left. We were told leaving the EU would be beneficial to the nation. Shouldn't the Leavers who told us to suck up our defeat in 2016 be cracking on with making Brexit work?
Everybody should.
Brexit's fucked. Lost cause. It's like one of those doddery, blind 19 year old Labradors that people can't bear to have euthanised because they loved its younger self so very much. So they persist with cocktails of drugs and 2 grand vet bills while kidding themselves they see signs of improvement as they clean up yet more liquid shit.
Nope. Brexit is a part of history, a given fact, an axiom. What we do from here is for everyone to decide. Everyone does want to make the country better than it is at the moment, right?
Does that include Brejoin, even Brejoin closer than before? (NB not whether we should, but do you see that as an option on the list, even it it's one to reject?)
That certainly could be an option, but it would require people to campaign actively for it and extol its benefints, not keep on whinging impotently about losing a vote what is soon to be a decade ago.
And if we're to Rejoin then absolutely it should be as full members, including the euro and Schengen and the EU army. The half-in status we previously had was no good for either side.
Yep. That was actually my opinion at the time of the referendum
I narrowly voted Leave but if we’d voted Remain then I would have said: that’s it then. All in. Full on Federal Union. Euro, Schengen, EU army
Might as well enjoy the fruits of being a superpower if you have to suffer the pains of surrendering so much sovereignty
So if we have another vote, and collectively vote Brejoin, you'll be fully in?
Yes
My PB stalker, the renowned ex PBer @SeanT wrote a Telegraph column to this effect. That if we are to stay in the EU then we might as well go the whole hog. Elected EU President, EU army. Everything
I'd also like, belatedly, to thank you for engaging on a previous thread on the Scottish gender legislation, which I did write up a response for, but then pitched into the Christmas period and never posted. Rather than head off on that topic again here, I'd prefer now to work those musings as relevant to future discussions.
Amusingly, Yvette Cooper blew up the whole rationale for self-ID out of the water on the Today programme this morning in the rush not to make Labour look like it was on the side of rapists. Though she may not have quite realised it yet.
I'd also like, belatedly, to thank you for engaging on a previous thread on the Scottish gender legislation, which I did write up a response for, but then pitched into the Christmas period and never posted. Rather than head off on that topic again here, I'd prefer now to work those musings as relevant to future discussions.
Amusingly, Yvette Cooper blew up the whole rationale for self-ID out of the water on the Today programme this morning in the rush not to make Labour look like it was on the side of rapists. Though she may not have quite realised it yet.
"This dangerous rapist should not be in a woman's prison"
Yvette Cooper, Shadow Home Secretary, tells @BBCNickRobinson it 'should be straightforward' that someone who has committed crimes against women shouldn't be housed with women
Just as the EU was blamed for most things before Brexit the reverse is now happening .
I can imagine it’s frustrating for Leavers but what goes around comes around !
This blame-Brexit campaign is possibly going to succeed as well
I used to scoff at predictions we would Rejoin. Now I am not so sure at all. Tho the Rejoiners need to act fairly fast - next 5-10 years - because the UK will in time pivot further away from the EU, as it necessarily develops a new economic model that actually works
As shown on TV last night
Yep. I can see the polls and I can see the trend. We are possibly heading for Rejoin if the Rejoiners play it cleverly
That said the Remainers have shown crass ineptitude and boorish arrogance in the past, and if they allow people like you to be heard, gloating, sniping and bitterly exulting, they will badly miss the window of opportunity
Based on the latest joint Franco-German statement from the Elysee Palace earlier in the week, by the time we look like rejoining, the EU will be far closer to what we Leavers warned about. QMV for Foreign and Security policy and taxation via passerelle clauses in the Lisbon Treaty and EU wide constituencies for elections. Good luck selling that to the public.
Another problem would be that the UK would, presumably, be expected to be a net contributor again. Thus membership would come with a bill. Not great, presentationally.
Given the state of the economy, we're more likely to be like Ireland in 1973 - a net beneficiary.
Yay! Another Brexit bonus! We'll be poor enough to rejoin!
Jim Harra told Public Accounts Committee that 'there are no penalties for innocent errors'
'If your error was result of carelessness then legislation says a penalty applies'
As Dan Neidle* explained on R4, in completing your tax return YOU have a "duty of care" to complete it accurately - so a "careless" error is not quite as innocuous as it may sound on first hearing.
* The retired tax lawyer who exposed this. Although he's a Labour Party member I've found his commentary scrupulously non-partisan and fair.
Just as the EU was blamed for most things before Brexit the reverse is now happening .
I can imagine it’s frustrating for Leavers but what goes around comes around !
This blame-Brexit campaign is possibly going to succeed as well
I used to scoff at predictions we would Rejoin. Now I am not so sure at all. Tho the Rejoiners need to act fairly fast - next 5-10 years - because the UK will in time pivot further away from the EU, as it necessarily develops a new economic model that actually works
As shown on TV last night
Yep. I can see the polls and I can see the trend. We are possibly heading for Rejoin if the Rejoiners play it cleverly
That said the Remainers have shown crass ineptitude and boorish arrogance in the past, and if they allow people like you to be heard, gloating, sniping and bitterly exulting, they will badly miss the window of opportunity
We left. We were told leaving the EU would be beneficial to the nation. Shouldn't the Leavers who told us to suck up our defeat in 2016 be cracking on with making Brexit work?
Everybody should.
Brexit's fucked. Lost cause. It's like one of those doddery, blind 19 year old Labradors that people can't bear to have euthanised because they loved its younger self so very much. So they persist with cocktails of drugs and 2 grand vet bills while kidding themselves they see signs of improvement as they clean up yet more liquid shit.
Nope. Brexit is a part of history, a given fact, an axiom. What we do from here is for everyone to decide. Everyone does want to make the country better than it is at the moment, right?
"Brexit was a mistake. An act of self-harm based on a delusional outdated view of Britain and the world. What do you have to say for yourself, Leavers?"
"It happened."
This is about where we are with the debate, I think.
Jim Harra told Public Accounts Committee that 'there are no penalties for innocent errors'
'If your error was result of carelessness then legislation says a penalty applies'
As Dan Neidle* explained on R4, in completing your tax return YOU have a "duty of care" to complete it accurately - so a "careless" error is not quite as innocuous as it may sound on first hearing.
* The retired tax lawyer who exposed this. Although he's a Labour Party member I've found his commentary scrupulously non-partisan and fair.
And, presumably, when you are as rich as Zahawi is, you have accountants to advise you. So careless errors should be even less likely.
"Brexit was a mistake. An act of self-harm based on a delusional outdated view of Britain and the world. What do you have to say for yourself, Leavers?"
"It happened."
This is about where we are with the debate, I think.
Just as the EU was blamed for most things before Brexit the reverse is now happening .
I can imagine it’s frustrating for Leavers but what goes around comes around !
This blame-Brexit campaign is possibly going to succeed as well
I used to scoff at predictions we would Rejoin. Now I am not so sure at all. Tho the Rejoiners need to act fairly fast - next 5-10 years - because the UK will in time pivot further away from the EU, as it necessarily develops a new economic model that actually works
As shown on TV last night
Yep. I can see the polls and I can see the trend. We are possibly heading for Rejoin if the Rejoiners play it cleverly
That said the Remainers have shown crass ineptitude and boorish arrogance in the past, and if they allow people like you to be heard, gloating, sniping and bitterly exulting, they will badly miss the window of opportunity
We left. We were told leaving the EU would be beneficial to the nation. Shouldn't the Leavers who told us to suck up our defeat in 2016 be cracking on with making Brexit work?
Everybody should.
Brexit's fucked. Lost cause. It's like one of those doddery, blind 19 year old Labradors that people can't bear to have euthanised because they loved its younger self so very much. So they persist with cocktails of drugs and 2 grand vet bills while kidding themselves they see signs of improvement as they clean up yet more liquid shit.
Nope. Brexit is a part of history, a given fact, an axiom. What we do from here is for everyone to decide. Everyone does want to make the country better than it is at the moment, right?
"Brexit was a mistake. An act of self-harm based on a delusional outdated view of Britain and the world. What do you have to say for yourself, Leavers?"
"It happened."
This is about where we are with the debate, I think.
Indeed. Even the most ardent anti-Brexiteers still won't talk about any actual benefits of the EU, which is why they're still anti-Brexiteers and not Rejoiners.
The time I felt that leave was likely to win was when I realised that the question normal people were asking each other wasn't "are you voting Remain or Leave" but "are you voting for or against Brexit". And the Europhiles still haven't learned their lesson...
More on selling Ted Heath from a 2003 profile of Jim Garrett:-
In 1968 Garrett was asked by his friend Geoffrey Tucker, an adman who had been seconded to be director of publicity at the Conservative Party Central Office, to assemble a team of communications advisers for Edward Heath. Way before the days of political spin doctors and image makers, the idea was to use the television medium to repackage "Edward" (who was out of touch, unpopular, pretentious, snobbish and rude) as "Ted" (who was interesting, generous, thoughtful and friendly).
Garrett put together a team which included Dick Clement (the writer of Porridge), Bryan Forbes (the film director), Barry Day (copywriter, then at Lintas), Sir Ronald Millar (later Thatcher's speechwriter) and Terence Donovan. The aim was to make sure it was Ted who was seen on television and rallies and heard on the radio, not Edward. The treatment worked. He won the 1970 General Election, his only electoral victory - he lost three others. But it was no simple task.
"Brexit was a mistake. An act of self-harm based on a delusional outdated view of Britain and the world. What do you have to say for yourself, Leavers?"
"It happened."
This is about where we are with the debate, I think.
"Brexit was a mistake. An act of self-harm based on a delusional outdated view of Britain and the world. What do you have to say for yourself, Leavers?"
"It happened."
This is about where we are with the debate, I think.
You missed "Please stop talking about it..."
Also "and it's all the fault of Remainers."
Funnily enough, people who deliberately make the country worse get more criticism than those who do it accidentally.
Jim Harra told Public Accounts Committee that 'there are no penalties for innocent errors'
'If your error was result of carelessness then legislation says a penalty applies'
As Dan Neidle* explained on R4, in completing your tax return YOU have a "duty of care" to complete it accurately - so a "careless" error is not quite as innocuous as it may sound on first hearing.
* The retired tax lawyer who exposed this. Although he's a Labour Party member I've found his commentary scrupulously non-partisan and fair.
And, presumably, when you are as rich as Zahawi is, you have accountants to advise you. So careless errors should be even less likely.
"Carelessness can be likened to the longstanding concept in general law of negligence"
More on selling Ted Heath from a 2003 profile of Jim Garrett:-
In 1968 Garrett was asked by his friend Geoffrey Tucker, an adman who had been seconded to be director of publicity at the Conservative Party Central Office, to assemble a team of communications advisers for Edward Heath. Way before the days of political spin doctors and image makers, the idea was to use the television medium to repackage "Edward" (who was out of touch, unpopular, pretentious, snobbish and rude) as "Ted" (who was interesting, generous, thoughtful and friendly).
Garrett put together a team which included Dick Clement (the writer of Porridge), Bryan Forbes (the film director), Barry Day (copywriter, then at Lintas), Sir Ronald Millar (later Thatcher's speechwriter) and Terence Donovan. The aim was to make sure it was Ted who was seen on television and rallies and heard on the radio, not Edward. The treatment worked. He won the 1970 General Election, his only electoral victory - he lost three others. But it was no simple task.
I remember the Heath election. As a young kid I had no idea what it was really about, but I do remember a genuine sense of (short lived) optimism expressed by the grownups.
Jim Harra told Public Accounts Committee that 'there are no penalties for innocent errors'
'If your error was result of carelessness then legislation says a penalty applies'
As Dan Neidle* explained on R4, in completing your tax return YOU have a "duty of care" to complete it accurately - so a "careless" error is not quite as innocuous as it may sound on first hearing.
* The retired tax lawyer who exposed this. Although he's a Labour Party member I've found his commentary scrupulously non-partisan and fair.
And, presumably, when you are as rich as Zahawi is, you have accountants to advise you. So careless errors should be even less likely.
It's a very fortunate careless error that saves £5m in tax.
Just as the EU was blamed for most things before Brexit the reverse is now happening .
I can imagine it’s frustrating for Leavers but what goes around comes around !
This blame-Brexit campaign is possibly going to succeed as well
I used to scoff at predictions we would Rejoin. Now I am not so sure at all. Tho the Rejoiners need to act fairly fast - next 5-10 years - because the UK will in time pivot further away from the EU, as it necessarily develops a new economic model that actually works
As shown on TV last night
Yep. I can see the polls and I can see the trend. We are possibly heading for Rejoin if the Rejoiners play it cleverly
That said the Remainers have shown crass ineptitude and boorish arrogance in the past, and if they allow people like you to be heard, gloating, sniping and bitterly exulting, they will badly miss the window of opportunity
We left. We were told leaving the EU would be beneficial to the nation. Shouldn't the Leavers who told us to suck up our defeat in 2016 be cracking on with making Brexit work?
Everybody should.
Brexit's fucked. Lost cause. It's like one of those doddery, blind 19 year old Labradors that people can't bear to have euthanised because they loved its younger self so very much. So they persist with cocktails of drugs and 2 grand vet bills while kidding themselves they see signs of improvement as they clean up yet more liquid shit.
Nope. Brexit is a part of history, a given fact, an axiom. What we do from here is for everyone to decide. Everyone does want to make the country better than it is at the moment, right?
"Brexit was a mistake. An act of self-harm based on a delusional outdated view of Britain and the world. What do you have to say for yourself, Leavers?"
"It happened."
This is about where we are with the debate, I think.
Indeed. Even the most ardent anti-Brexiteers still won't talk about any actual benefits of the EU, which is why they're still anti-Brexiteers and not Rejoiners.
The time I felt that leave was likely to win was when I realised that the question normal people were asking each other wasn't "are you voting Remain or Leave" but "are you voting for or against Brexit". And the Europhiles still haven't learned their lesson...
I'd say the country as a whole is being taught a lesson. But whether it's listening or throwing paper planes in the back row, I'm not sure.
"Brexit was a mistake. An act of self-harm based on a delusional outdated view of Britain and the world. What do you have to say for yourself, Leavers?"
"It happened."
This is about where we are with the debate, I think.
You missed "Please stop talking about it..."
Also "and it's all the fault of Remainers."
Funnily enough, people who deliberately make the country worse get more criticism than those who do it accidentally.
Agreed. It's entirely fair to distinguish between the Brexit crew and those they persuaded to vote for it.
"Brexit was a mistake. An act of self-harm based on a delusional outdated view of Britain and the world. What do you have to say for yourself, Leavers?"
"It happened."
This is about where we are with the debate, I think.
You missed "Please stop talking about it..."
Also "and it's all the fault of Remainers."
Funnily enough, people who deliberately make the country worse get more criticism than those who do it accidentally.
Now I'm confused.
Are you saying that the harms of Brexit were... An accident?
Are you Nadhim Zahawi?
(And not being harmful seems better to me than being harmful.)
Just as the EU was blamed for most things before Brexit the reverse is now happening .
I can imagine it’s frustrating for Leavers but what goes around comes around !
This blame-Brexit campaign is possibly going to succeed as well
I used to scoff at predictions we would Rejoin. Now I am not so sure at all. Tho the Rejoiners need to act fairly fast - next 5-10 years - because the UK will in time pivot further away from the EU, as it necessarily develops a new economic model that actually works
As shown on TV last night
Yep. I can see the polls and I can see the trend. We are possibly heading for Rejoin if the Rejoiners play it cleverly
That said the Remainers have shown crass ineptitude and boorish arrogance in the past, and if they allow people like you to be heard, gloating, sniping and bitterly exulting, they will badly miss the window of opportunity
We left. We were told leaving the EU would be beneficial to the nation. Shouldn't the Leavers who told us to suck up our defeat in 2016 be cracking on with making Brexit work?
Everybody should.
Brexit's fucked. Lost cause. It's like one of those doddery, blind 19 year old Labradors that people can't bear to have euthanised because they loved its younger self so very much. So they persist with cocktails of drugs and 2 grand vet bills while kidding themselves they see signs of improvement as they clean up yet more liquid shit.
Nope. Brexit is a part of history, a given fact, an axiom. What we do from here is for everyone to decide. Everyone does want to make the country better than it is at the moment, right?
"Brexit was a mistake. An act of self-harm based on a delusional outdated view of Britain and the world. What do you have to say for yourself, Leavers?"
"It happened."
This is about where we are with the debate, I think.
Oh come on kinabalu, you're better than that. Still with this argument that leavers were labouring under the delusion that Britain was the power it was 100 years ago? Leavers knew how far Britain had fallen. If Leavers thought Britain was great and powerful and doing fine, they wouldn't have voted for change.
Anyway, off the top of my head, I have to say for myself this - my view is the following:
My view is that the risk of remaining was greater than the risk of leaving. I have a greater fear of a declining and sclerotic Europe than I do of a declining and sclerotic Britain. I believe in democracy as the best way of achieving a positive outcome for the people as a whole, and British democracy is far less imperfect than European democracy. The years since the referendum, and in particular covid, and to a lesser extent Ukraine, have demonstrated that Europe is no particular friend to Britain. Remember the 'stop Britain getting vaccines' drive? Remember the demonisation of the AZ vaccine? This was not a simple jockeying for position, this was actual spite. My view is that Britain is more able to evade this outside the EU than inside it - though it will always have to contend with it. I voted leave in the belief that there would be a short-term (i.e. first ten years) economic hit, but that British people will be better off in the long term out of the EU. The economic hit was much less than I anticipated. Leave was never a silver bullet. There remains lots wrong with Britain that needs to be addressed. Much of this is more easily done outside the EU, though of course much more is entirely separate from EU membership. The fact that we haven't yet addressed these matters is not a fault of leave (and indeed had we done so three years after leaving I would have been amazed). Don't confuse 'Britain is in a worse situation than it was a few years ago' with 'Brexit has caused Britain's woes. The impact of Brexit is dwarfed by that of covid and Ukraine. My leave vote was never certain. I ummed and ahhed and decided on balance leave was probably the safer vote. Had I known then what I know now I would have voted leave with much more certainty. I would certainly vote stay out given the option today. I was a soft Brexiter in 2016; I am probably a harder Brexiter in 2023 - though my mind is certainly not made up on what our future relationship with the EU should ideally be like, and I certainly wouldn't see it as a betrayal if it ended up looking like something else.
Just as the EU was blamed for most things before Brexit the reverse is now happening .
I can imagine it’s frustrating for Leavers but what goes around comes around !
This blame-Brexit campaign is possibly going to succeed as well
I used to scoff at predictions we would Rejoin. Now I am not so sure at all. Tho the Rejoiners need to act fairly fast - next 5-10 years - because the UK will in time pivot further away from the EU, as it necessarily develops a new economic model that actually works
As shown on TV last night
Yep. I can see the polls and I can see the trend. We are possibly heading for Rejoin if the Rejoiners play it cleverly
That said the Remainers have shown crass ineptitude and boorish arrogance in the past, and if they allow people like you to be heard, gloating, sniping and bitterly exulting, they will badly miss the window of opportunity
There are enough Remainers who are fixated enough on forcing Leavers to recant in a humiliating way, that I don't think a quick rejoin is possible.
Time has to be allowed to heal Brexit wounds and make the case to rejoin to a new generation. I don't agree that Rejoin becomes impossible later. More than forty years of membership didn't make Leave impossible. Forty years on the outside won't make rejoin impossible either.
Comments
Another term probably would be enough time to make the Brapprochment and Brejoin process horribly difficult. It might not have made Brexit a success, or something the public liked, but it would have been put in the "too hard to undo" column.
A Starmer government won't pivot further away from the EU; Brexit will be made to work by dilution.
Meanwhile, those who are generationally keen on Brexit will continue to go to that blessed place where they don't have to worry about it. (I'm making an assumption that it's about cohort, not age, but I think the data bear that out.)
That said the Remainers have shown crass ineptitude and boorish arrogance in the past, and if they allow people like you to be heard, gloating, sniping and bitterly exulting, they will badly miss the window of opportunity
Which makes me feel a bit inadequate as during covid I mastered the art of cooking Dover sole and chicken laksa. And that’s about it
https://youtube.com/watch?v=koXwrLEOzJo
Is it that politicians have become worse, or the media landscape has changed? I suspect quite a bit of both.
He was an unusual Thatcherite. Aristo with bow ties and deep interest in the arts. Resigned from Govt as he coudn't live on a cabinet minister's salary.
THE estranged wife of trans double rapist Isla Bryson has branded his gender change a “sham” to escape a men’s prison.
https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/news/10120424/trans-rapists-estranged-wife-gender-change-sham/
There must come a point when someone is prepared to grasp the nettle and begins the process of reversing the decision. The danger for Starmer is that a renegade from the Tory right might beat him to it. With a resprayed bus they could promise the earth.
From the header: "Fluent and able as he is, if Zahawi were to appear in an Agatha Christie dramatisation, you just know he will be up to no good, if not the actual villain"
Well that is true.
Though it is more because racism and xenophobia are rampant in Christie's works.
In the same way the Scottish decided to stay in the UK.
Edited extra bit: do you think Scotland, England, Wales, and Northern Ireland should *all* have to vote for a change in foreign policy/treaties for the change to go ahead?
Westminster voting intention:
LAB: 50% (+5)
CON: 21% (-)
via @PeoplePolling, 24 Jan
The ghosts of the Kennedy clan are also giggling in the corner.
Following the Russian invasion of Ukraine in February 2022 and the subsequent economic sanctions on trade, UK trade with Russia has decreased substantially.
Imports of goods from Russia have fallen to £18 million in November 2022, a decrease of 98.2% compared with the monthly average from the 12 months to February 2022, and exports of goods to Russia have decreased to £57 million, a fall of 77.4%.
https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/nationalaccounts/balanceofpayments/articles/theimpactofsanctionsonuktradewithrussia/november2022
I think the phrase, suck it up, is appropriate here
Don't reopen the debate, but wait in the confidence it will open by itself.
What's the line about good lawyers never asking questions unless they know the answer?
Same quandary facing IndyScot campaign. Do they copy Leave campaign and dishonestly claim economic benefits or fess up and say sovereignty is worth the pain (and lose)?
She needs to keep the zealots frothing, he needs to keep a lid on it
I don't want to Rejoin if it doesn't include membership of the Euro and Schengen.
Also we should join an EU army to combat Putin.
I have actually come up with some suggested policies to address the migration issue, which I seem to recall you praised at the time. Bleating about others while coming up with nothing useful of your own and then adding in "oh woe is the nation" is your speciality, dear one. Endlessly entertaining but a bit pointless.
And your instant deportation to Rwanda won't work because that is not what Rwanda has agreed to. So try again.
"Those aren't the latest figures though. While UK car production in 2022 has dropped by another 10% since 2021, German car production, for example, has risen by 11%.
Covid and the associated semiconductor shortage hit everyone hard, but the others are slowly recovering while we still seem to be in a tailspin."
Our country cannot recover until the Brexiteers stop deluding themselves. We may be in for a long wait.
He should have joined Press TV, or Russia Today. Now that would have been interesting...
And if we're to Rejoin then absolutely it should be as full members, including the euro and Schengen and the EU army. The half-in status we previously had was no good for either side.
And it will be impossible if swing voters are exposed to boring gloating Remoaner incels like you who are determined to lecture Leavers on their rank stupidity then ask for their vote
A period of silence from you, of about ten years duration, would be well advised
I still don't think it will happen and would of course campaign against it but it has to be on the list for future direction or we are no better than the politicians who spent years preventing a vote on leaving in the first place.
+
100% of DKs will vote Tory, plus swing back
=
Tory landslide
I might develop a new metaphor. Brexit is like having a baby. An epileptic baby
He worked on BT’s ‘Beattie’ ads with Maureen Lipman, the ‘Nicole… Papa’ series for the Renault Clio, Benson & Hedges and After Eight
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/obituaries/2023/01/25/jim-garrett-advertising-film-maker-who-took-challenge-improving/ (£££)
I narrowly voted Leave but if we’d voted Remain then I would have said: that’s it then. All in. Full on Federal Union. Euro, Schengen, EU army
Might as well enjoy the fruits of being a superpower if you have to suffer the pains of surrendering so much sovereignty
I like brutally enforcing 100k fines on scumbag employers. And giving half to the undocumented workers who give evidence. The “black” economy would evaporate in seconds…
https://twitter.com/tom_nuttall/status/1618542836215074816
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1130644/smarter_tariffs_smarter_comparisons_final_report.pdf
Book Review: Chip War: The Fight for the World's Most Critical Technology
http://wavefunction.fieldofscience.com/2023/01/review-chip-war-fight-for-worlds-most.html
My PB stalker, the renowned ex PBer @SeanT wrote a Telegraph column to this effect. That if we are to stay in the EU then we might as well go the whole hog. Elected EU President, EU army. Everything
Yvette Cooper, Shadow Home Secretary, tells @BBCNickRobinson it 'should be straightforward' that someone who has committed crimes against women shouldn't be housed with women
https://bbc.in/3JgPQsf | #R4Today
https://twitter.com/BBCr4today/status/1618532781595795458
Yay! Another Brexit bonus! We'll be poor enough to rejoin!
https://twitter.com/Steven_Swinford/status/1618560474504695808
Nadhim Zahawi has not made an 'innocent error' in his tax affairs, head of HMRC has suggested
Jim Harra told Public Accounts Committee that 'there are no penalties for innocent errors'
'If your error was result of carelessness then legislation says a penalty applies'
* The retired tax lawyer who exposed this. Although he's a Labour Party member I've found his commentary scrupulously non-partisan and fair.
If only I had a suitable mug from which to drink these Brexitears...
"It happened."
This is about where we are with the debate, I think.
The time I felt that leave was likely to win was when I realised that the question normal people were asking each other wasn't "are you voting Remain or Leave" but "are you voting for or against Brexit". And the Europhiles still haven't learned their lesson...
In 1968 Garrett was asked by his friend Geoffrey Tucker, an adman who had been seconded to be director of publicity at the Conservative Party Central Office, to assemble a team of communications advisers for Edward Heath. Way before the days of political spin doctors and image makers, the idea was to use the television medium to repackage "Edward" (who was out of touch, unpopular, pretentious, snobbish and rude) as "Ted" (who was interesting, generous, thoughtful and friendly).
Garrett put together a team which included Dick Clement (the writer of Porridge), Bryan Forbes (the film director), Barry Day (copywriter, then at Lintas), Sir Ronald Millar (later Thatcher's speechwriter) and Terence Donovan. The aim was to make sure it was Ted who was seen on television and rallies and heard on the radio, not Edward. The treatment worked. He won the 1970 General Election, his only electoral victory - he lost three others. But it was no simple task.
"Heath was not an easy man," Garrett recalls. "He was suspicious of anything to do with communications. He thought he could communicate with the public via a letter in The Times."
https://www.campaignlive.co.uk/article/lord-jim-james-garrett-one-great-names-british-commercials-gentleman-jim-retiring-40-years-caroline-marshall-reports/191172
https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/compliance-handbook/ch53400
The few pages surrounding this one, accessible by Next and Previous buttons may also be of interest.
As a young kid I had no idea what it was really about, but I do remember a genuine sense of (short lived) optimism expressed by the grownups.
It's entirely fair to distinguish between the Brexit crew and those they persuaded to vote for it.
Are you saying that the harms of Brexit were... An accident?
Are you Nadhim Zahawi?
(And not being harmful seems better to me than being harmful.)
Anyway, off the top of my head, I have to say for myself this - my view is the following:
My view is that the risk of remaining was greater than the risk of leaving.
I have a greater fear of a declining and sclerotic Europe than I do of a declining and sclerotic Britain.
I believe in democracy as the best way of achieving a positive outcome for the people as a whole, and British democracy is far less imperfect than European democracy.
The years since the referendum, and in particular covid, and to a lesser extent Ukraine, have demonstrated that Europe is no particular friend to Britain. Remember the 'stop Britain getting vaccines' drive? Remember the demonisation of the AZ vaccine? This was not a simple jockeying for position, this was actual spite. My view is that Britain is more able to evade this outside the EU than inside it - though it will always have to contend with it.
I voted leave in the belief that there would be a short-term (i.e. first ten years) economic hit, but that British people will be better off in the long term out of the EU. The economic hit was much less than I anticipated.
Leave was never a silver bullet. There remains lots wrong with Britain that needs to be addressed. Much of this is more easily done outside the EU, though of course much more is entirely separate from EU membership. The fact that we haven't yet addressed these matters is not a fault of leave (and indeed had we done so three years after leaving I would have been amazed).
Don't confuse 'Britain is in a worse situation than it was a few years ago' with 'Brexit has caused Britain's woes. The impact of Brexit is dwarfed by that of covid and Ukraine.
My leave vote was never certain. I ummed and ahhed and decided on balance leave was probably the safer vote. Had I known then what I know now I would have voted leave with much more certainty. I would certainly vote stay out given the option today. I was a soft Brexiter in 2016; I am probably a harder Brexiter in 2023 - though my mind is certainly not made up on what our future relationship with the EU should ideally be like, and I certainly wouldn't see it as a betrayal if it ended up looking like something else.
But let's assume that does happen, what do the Tories do?
Time has to be allowed to heal Brexit wounds and make the case to rejoin to a new generation. I don't agree that Rejoin becomes impossible later. More than forty years of membership didn't make Leave impossible. Forty years on the outside won't make rejoin impossible either.