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Now a poll has the striking teachers getting public backing – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 8,489
edited January 22 in General
imageNow a poll has the striking teachers getting public backing – politicalbetting.com

One of the features of the current wave of strikes in the public sector is that the public when polled are generally in support of those taking action.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 45,880
    Get some of these strikes settled. now. Its a no brainer.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 24,682
    DavidL said:

    Get some of these strikes settled. now. Its a no brainer.

    Indeed. The ineptitude of this government is staggering.
  • beinndeargbeinndearg Posts: 676
    Yeah settle the strikes. But pmq today was dumb and dumber and impossible to say who was which. Starmer gonna be a dire pm.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 45,880
    The main reason that the public are sympathetic is that everyone can see that pay awards fixed by panels before the Bank of England let inflation run out of control are not fair and need adjustment to the current situation. There is room in most of the disputes for settlements that are still below the current rate of inflation and, therefore, a fall in the wage bill in real terms. It is really obvious that this is what should be done.
  • beinndeargbeinndearg Posts: 676
    Jonathan Raban dead at 80. A truly great writer.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 45,880

    Yeah settle the strikes. But pmq today was dumb and dumber and impossible to say who was which. Starmer gonna be a dire pm.

    I fear so. He will make Truss look composed and Sunak decisive. Probably won't make Johnson seem honest though.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 56,756
    DavidL said:

    Yeah settle the strikes. But pmq today was dumb and dumber and impossible to say who was which. Starmer gonna be a dire pm.

    I fear so. He will make Truss look composed and Sunak decisive. Probably won't make Johnson seem honest though.
    Even Lenin would find that fairly hard work.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 24,682
    edited January 18
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Roger said:

    Interesting discussion about the NHS on Ch4. Wes Streeting a revelation. Surely a potential Labour leader? The Tories were represented by Helen Whately (?). She seemed pleasant enough but you were left asking yourself how someone with those limitations could become an MP let alone a minister.

    Really? Streeting seems a nasty piece of work to me. I wouldn't trust him an inch.
    What makes you think that of Streeting?
    He is two faced, he complains that the Tories won't negotiate over nurses pay, yet won't support them getting more pay. He is a snake.
    I don't see how that follows. Encouraging the government to negotiate is one thing - everyone on here seems to support that.

    I suspect the Labour leadership are deliberately trying to resist being painted as in the pockets of the Unions. Cynical, maybe, but 'nasty piece of work' seems a bit excessive.
  • DavidL said:

    The main reason that the public are sympathetic is that everyone can see that pay awards fixed by panels before the Bank of England let inflation run out of control are not fair and need adjustment to the current situation. There is room in most of the disputes for settlements that are still below the current rate of inflation and, therefore, a fall in the wage bill in real terms. It is really obvious that this is what should be done.

    And yet it fails to move, as Galileo didn't say. Why?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 107,357
    So 41% oppose the teachers' strike which is far more than the current Tory poll score. Sunak is correct to stick to his line with Hunt and not provide the strikers with at or above inflation payrises. They would be more than the national rise and lead to an inflationary wage spiral.

    No other Tory leadership alternative would be elected if they refused to stand up to the Unions either. If Labour want to appease the Unions if they win the next election that is their problem
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 17,643

    Jonathan Raban dead at 80. A truly great writer.

    I posted a RIP on the last thread.
    We actually don’t get THAT many great writers. Maybe 100 alive at any one time? Raban was one. Looking forward to his memoir, due later this year.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 17,643
    Keir’s PPB was pretty good.
    Jeremy’s inflation thing was actually OK too.

    Rishi is still hopeless.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 45,880

    DavidL said:

    The main reason that the public are sympathetic is that everyone can see that pay awards fixed by panels before the Bank of England let inflation run out of control are not fair and need adjustment to the current situation. There is room in most of the disputes for settlements that are still below the current rate of inflation and, therefore, a fall in the wage bill in real terms. It is really obvious that this is what should be done.

    And yet it fails to move, as Galileo didn't say. Why?
    Because the government thinks being tough with unions helps consolidate their support. And it might but at the cost of losing the floaters.

    Edit damn. The price you pay for not getting the second goal.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 56,756
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    The main reason that the public are sympathetic is that everyone can see that pay awards fixed by panels before the Bank of England let inflation run out of control are not fair and need adjustment to the current situation. There is room in most of the disputes for settlements that are still below the current rate of inflation and, therefore, a fall in the wage bill in real terms. It is really obvious that this is what should be done.

    And yet it fails to move, as Galileo didn't say. Why?
    Because the government thinks being tough with unions helps consolidate their support. And it might but at the cost of losing the floaters.

    Edit damn. The price you pay for not getting the second goal.
    If 'the floaters' is a reference to this government, who are definitely all massive floaters, I think I could live with losing them.
  • HYUFD said:

    So 41% oppose the teachers' strike which is far more than the current Tory poll score. Sunak is correct to stick to his line with Hunt and not provide the strikers with at or above inflation payrises. They would be more than the national rise and lead to an inflationary wage spiral.

    No other Tory leadership alternative would be elected if they refused to stand up to the Unions either. If Labour want to appease the Unions if they win the next election that is their problem

    The trouble for the Tories is that supporting the strike broadly means you think they should get essentially what they want AND you agree with their methods.

    Opposing it either means you think they're wrong OR disagree with their methods (or both).

    So within the 41% are quite a lot of people who think the Government are being arseholes BUT teachers shouldn't strike due to the effect on kid's education etc.

    So 41% is a ceiling for the Tories on this, whereas 51% is a floor for progressives.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 57,769
    We didna ken! Naebody telt us!

    -On 26 January 2022 the EHRC wrote to the Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice, Housing and Local Government, setting out our position on reform of the Gender Recognition Act 2004. As the bill was introduced we exchanged further correspondence with the Cabinet Secretary.
    - The EHRC supported the Equality, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee’s scrutiny of the proposed bill. We appeared before the committee to give evidence and wrote to the Convener.
    - On 20 September 2022 the EHRC wrote to the Scottish and UK governments to set out the implications of the proposed legislation for the operation of the Equality Act 2010. At this time we met with MSPs from various political parties, as well as the Cabinet Secretary, to brief them on our advice.
    - On 14 November 2022 the EHRC shared a written briefing with all MSPs, to assist them as they considered the detail of the Bill and amendments at Stage 2. We shared this briefing with all MSPs again at Stage 3.
    - On 22 December 2022 the EHRC wrote to the Minister for Women and Equalities to summarise the potential impact of the new legislation.


    https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/our-work/news/statement-gender-recognition-reform-scotland-bill
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 28,836
    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    The main reason that the public are sympathetic is that everyone can see that pay awards fixed by panels before the Bank of England let inflation run out of control are not fair and need adjustment to the current situation. There is room in most of the disputes for settlements that are still below the current rate of inflation and, therefore, a fall in the wage bill in real terms. It is really obvious that this is what should be done.

    And yet it fails to move, as Galileo didn't say. Why?
    Because the government thinks being tough with unions helps consolidate their support. And it might but at the cost of losing the floaters.

    Edit damn. The price you pay for not getting the second goal.
    If 'the floaters' is a reference to this government, who are definitely all massive floaters, I think I could live with losing them.
    You do make them sound topically as if they'd fit well into this series.

    https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2023/jan/17/know-your-sht-review-a-cheery-odyssey-into-other-peoples-poo
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 45,880

    We didna ken! Naebody telt us!

    -On 26 January 2022 the EHRC wrote to the Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice, Housing and Local Government, setting out our position on reform of the Gender Recognition Act 2004. As the bill was introduced we exchanged further correspondence with the Cabinet Secretary.
    - The EHRC supported the Equality, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee’s scrutiny of the proposed bill. We appeared before the committee to give evidence and wrote to the Convener.
    - On 20 September 2022 the EHRC wrote to the Scottish and UK governments to set out the implications of the proposed legislation for the operation of the Equality Act 2010. At this time we met with MSPs from various political parties, as well as the Cabinet Secretary, to brief them on our advice.
    - On 14 November 2022 the EHRC shared a written briefing with all MSPs, to assist them as they considered the detail of the Bill and amendments at Stage 2. We shared this briefing with all MSPs again at Stage 3.
    - On 22 December 2022 the EHRC wrote to the Minister for Women and Equalities to summarise the potential impact of the new legislation.


    https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/our-work/news/statement-gender-recognition-reform-scotland-bill

    Shocked they were that anybody could suggest that there was an overlap with the Equality Act. Shocked.

    Nicola gives Boris a run for his money, she surely does.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 19,698

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Roger said:

    Interesting discussion about the NHS on Ch4. Wes Streeting a revelation. Surely a potential Labour leader? The Tories were represented by Helen Whately (?). She seemed pleasant enough but you were left asking yourself how someone with those limitations could become an MP let alone a minister.

    Really? Streeting seems a nasty piece of work to me. I wouldn't trust him an inch.
    What makes you think that of Streeting?
    He is two faced, he complains that the Tories won't negotiate over nurses pay, yet won't support them getting more pay. He is a snake.
    I don't see how that follows. Encouraging the government to negotiate is one thing - everyone on here seems to support that.

    I suspect the Labour leadership are deliberately trying to resist being painted as in the pockets of the Unions. Cynical, maybe, but 'nasty piece of work' seems a bit excessive.
    Torching a pet shop on the other hand!!
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 32,976
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    The main reason that the public are sympathetic is that everyone can see that pay awards fixed by panels before the Bank of England let inflation run out of control are not fair and need adjustment to the current situation. There is room in most of the disputes for settlements that are still below the current rate of inflation and, therefore, a fall in the wage bill in real terms. It is really obvious that this is what should be done.

    And yet it fails to move, as Galileo didn't say. Why?
    Because the government thinks being tough with unions helps consolidate their support. And it might but at the cost of losing the floaters.

    Edit damn. The price you pay for not getting the second goal.
    The core vote strategy. I wonder if they have a handle on who the core are now though. It's different since Brexit and Johnson.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 36,825

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Roger said:

    Interesting discussion about the NHS on Ch4. Wes Streeting a revelation. Surely a potential Labour leader? The Tories were represented by Helen Whately (?). She seemed pleasant enough but you were left asking yourself how someone with those limitations could become an MP let alone a minister.

    Really? Streeting seems a nasty piece of work to me. I wouldn't trust him an inch.
    What makes you think that of Streeting?
    He is two faced, he complains that the Tories won't negotiate over nurses pay, yet won't support them getting more pay. He is a snake.
    I don't see how that follows. Encouraging the government to negotiate is one thing - everyone on here seems to support that.

    I suspect the Labour leadership are deliberately trying to resist being painted as in the pockets of the Unions. Cynical, maybe, but 'nasty piece of work' seems a bit excessive.
    What is there to negotiate but a better pay rise? If he won't support that then it is just cant on Streetings part.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 20,506
    DavidL said:

    The main reason that the public are sympathetic is that everyone can see that pay awards fixed by panels before the Bank of England let inflation run out of control are not fair and need adjustment to the current situation. There is room in most of the disputes for settlements that are still below the current rate of inflation and, therefore, a fall in the wage bill in real terms. It is really obvious that this is what should be done.

    There is one thing to be done. Attack the price of energy by increasing supply. That will bring everything back into alignment. The Government shows no urgency or even long term desire to do this. Instead, they seem intent on baking the absurd energy price hikes into the system. That will cripple the entire the economy. It is a wrecking Government.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 45,880
    kinabalu said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    The main reason that the public are sympathetic is that everyone can see that pay awards fixed by panels before the Bank of England let inflation run out of control are not fair and need adjustment to the current situation. There is room in most of the disputes for settlements that are still below the current rate of inflation and, therefore, a fall in the wage bill in real terms. It is really obvious that this is what should be done.

    And yet it fails to move, as Galileo didn't say. Why?
    Because the government thinks being tough with unions helps consolidate their support. And it might but at the cost of losing the floaters.

    Edit damn. The price you pay for not getting the second goal.
    The core vote strategy. I wonder if they have a handle on who the core are now though. It's different since Brexit and Johnson.
    Let's put it this way. If the way they are behaving is pissing off people like me that core vote is pretty select.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 30,637
    A night on the town in Bangkok. It is, if anything, more entertaining than ever. Basically you become a Roman Emperor for 3 hours

    There are worse fates, as Heliogabulus once pointed out
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 25,298
    And it isn't just education funding.
    It is funding for all the supporting partner agencies, too.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 45,880
    edited January 18
    dixiedean said:

    There is no point, though, in a pay rise which comes out of the current education budget. That is as much of a source of discontent as the pay.
    We see every day how sheer lack of funding is failing vulnerable kids.

    The Education Minister, possibly the SoS, was on Today this morning and quite good, I thought. She said that the Unions told her they needed the Education budget increased by £2bn and she got that in a budget where largesse wasn't exactly being thrown around. It was a fair point.
    She was also hinting that a flying start on next year's settlement was the way forward, looking forward rather than back as she put it.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 25,298
    Leon said:

    A night on the town in Bangkok. It is, if anything, more entertaining than ever. Basically you become a Roman Emperor for 3 hours

    There are worse fates, as Heliogabulus once pointed out

    Are you still in Bangkok?
    I agree. But getting to the beach quickly is the single best thing about that city.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 30,637
    dixiedean said:

    Leon said:

    A night on the town in Bangkok. It is, if anything, more entertaining than ever. Basically you become a Roman Emperor for 3 hours

    There are worse fates, as Heliogabulus once pointed out

    Are you still in Bangkok?
    I agree. But getting to the beach quickly is the single best thing about that city.
    No. There are better things. Trust me
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 45,880

    DavidL said:

    The main reason that the public are sympathetic is that everyone can see that pay awards fixed by panels before the Bank of England let inflation run out of control are not fair and need adjustment to the current situation. There is room in most of the disputes for settlements that are still below the current rate of inflation and, therefore, a fall in the wage bill in real terms. It is really obvious that this is what should be done.

    There is one thing to be done. Attack the price of energy by increasing supply. That will bring everything back into alignment. The Government shows no urgency or even long term desire to do this. Instead, they seem intent on baking the absurd energy price hikes into the system. That will cripple the entire the economy. It is a wrecking Government.
    Not really sure where you think that they should magic up some cheap energy from. Roughly 40% of our energy comes from gas and it is the flexible part of the system which can step up when the wind doesn't blow. That means gas is the determinant for prices. And I don't see what the government can do about it.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 32,976
    Leon said:

    A night on the town in Bangkok. It is, if anything, more entertaining than ever. Basically you become a Roman Emperor for 3 hours

    There are worse fates, as Heliogabulus once pointed out

    You're watching people fight to the death while nibbling on grapes?

    You not them, I mean ... with the grapes.

    Although that would be an even better spectacle, I suppose.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 25,298
    edited January 18
    DavidL said:

    dixiedean said:

    There is no point, though, in a pay rise which comes out of the current education budget. That is as much of a source of discontent as the pay.
    We see every day how sheer lack of funding is failing vulnerable kids.

    The Education Minister, possibly the SoS, was on Today this morning and quite good, I thought. She said that the Unions told her they needed the Education budget increased by £2bn and she got that in a budget where largesse wasn't exactly being thrown around. It was a fair point.
    She was also hinting that a flying start on next year's settlement was the way forward, looking forward rather than back as she put it.
    Fair enough if so.
    But we can't have it just dressed up as "protecting the frontline".
    The inability to get medication reviews, nor Occupational Therapists' appointments, nor changes of placement, nor CYPS, nor CAHMS, nor Children's Services appointments, nor working IT, nor anyone on reception, not Internet down for 48 hours, printers down for months, etc., etc. are equally, if not more important.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 5,759
    edited January 18
    It's no surprise that people want a decent pay rise, and it's no surprise that the public is generally supportive of that. Today's inflation rate was slightly down at 10.5%, but food prices were rising at 16.8% to December. Meanwhile, energy bills keep rising whatever is happening to the wholesale cost of energy; I've just received notification that my monthly bill is £264 a month, compared with £97 at this time last year.

    Guess what average and low paid people spend much of their income on? Food and energy bills, and for many fuel. An average pay rise of 2.7% in the public sector just isn't enough, especially in the context of falling real incomes over the last 10 years for most public sector workers.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 11,241

    DavidL said:

    The main reason that the public are sympathetic is that everyone can see that pay awards fixed by panels before the Bank of England let inflation run out of control are not fair and need adjustment to the current situation. There is room in most of the disputes for settlements that are still below the current rate of inflation and, therefore, a fall in the wage bill in real terms. It is really obvious that this is what should be done.

    And yet it fails to move, as Galileo didn't say. Why?
    Because there's no money left, and putting up taxes is an invitation for defenestration.

    The UK is paying for its public services thanks to the kindness of strangers, and Truss showed us that that kindness is wearing thin.

    Starmer isn't going to risk his chance of becoming PM by trying to speak this reality to the country, and Sunak's re-election relies on denying it.

    It takes time to convince people of the need to put up taxes to pay for better public services/pay, or to convince them that the country has to endure some tough years until it can earn enough money to pay for better public services/pay, and no British politicians are making the attempt at that persuasion.

    How does Hunt convince the bond market that Britain can afford to pay £bns extra every year for higher public sector pay?

    I think the strikes are going to drag on for a long time, because there's no longer an obvious and easy way out. The government is caught between the bond markets, the strikers and tax-averse Tory backbenchers.

    I don't know how that circle gets squared, but it's not going to be quickly.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 29,264
    @tnewtondunn: RT @FirstEdition: Former Tory Party chairman Sir Jake Berry says "it would be the right thing to do for the government" to improve pa… https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1615837779186917378
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 45,880
    dixiedean said:

    DavidL said:

    dixiedean said:

    There is no point, though, in a pay rise which comes out of the current education budget. That is as much of a source of discontent as the pay.
    We see every day how sheer lack of funding is failing vulnerable kids.

    The Education Minister, possibly the SoS, was on Today this morning and quite good, I thought. She said that the Unions told her they needed the Education budget increased by £2bn and she got that in a budget where largesse wasn't exactly being thrown around. It was a fair point.
    She was also hinting that a flying start on next year's settlement was the way forward, looking forward rather than back as she put it.
    Fair enough if so.
    But we can't have it just dressed up as "protecting the frontline".
    The inability to get medication reviews, nor Occupational Therapists' appointments, nor changes of placement, nor CYPS, nor CAHMS, nor Children's Services appointments, nor working IT, nor anyone on reception, not Internet down for 48 hours, printers down for months, etc., etc. are equally, if not more important.
    Oh I agree. The money we have is not best spent, just as teacher's time is not valued enough.
  • It's no surprise that people want a decent pay rise, and it's no surprise that the public is generally supportive of that. Today's inflation rate was slightly down at 10.5%, but food prices were rising at 16.8% to December. Meanwhile, energy bills keep rising whatever is happening to the wholesale cost of energy; I've just received notification that my monthly bill is £264 a month, compared with £97 at this time last year.

    Guess what average and low paid people spend much of their income on? Food and energy bills, and for many fuel. An average pay rise of 2.7% in the public sector just isn't enough, especially in the context of falling real incomes over the last 10 years for most public sector workers.

    In an ideal world everyone would have a pay rise to match inflation and of course everyone backs tax rises as long as it is not theirs

    I have no idea how this is resolved but Sunak and Hunt seem to have an accountants mentality of balancing the books and as they have come this far and taken the flak, I expect no change by them this side of the new tax year

    However, the big problem comes in April when pensions, benefits and the living wage do rise by 10.1% which by the way is fully endorsed by Starmer and indeed the Lib Dems, when in truth it should be capped nearer to 5%
  • Cyclefree said:

    This week ie since Sunday -

    1. We've learnt that the man who was PM this time last year had a curious financial arrangement with a man seeking positions in the public sector.
    2. The Head of the Civil Service approved the arrangement and did not recognise a gigantic conflict of interest.
    3. One of the many ex-Chancellors of the Exchequer of the last year has been in dispute with HMRC over his tax affairs and had to pay back ca. £3 million of unpaid tax.
    4. The PM who signed the NI Protocol (see 1.) lied about its effects.
    5. The railways don't work.
    6. Strikes in the NHS are continuing and getting worse.
    7. Teachers are also going on strike.
    8. The government wants us to stop watching films about small boats in the Channel on YouTube.
    9. Male Labour MPs decided to barrack and and intimidate women MPs making speeches about women facing intimidatory behaviour by men (presumably to show them how it should be done). The Labour leadership is silent.
    10. The police are probably committing most of the crimes in the country.
    11. The Met Commissioner wrings his hands and says that this is all very awful.
    13. The rate of inflation is falling about as slowly as my weight.
    14. The rate of inflation for food is about twice the official inflation rate.

    And it's still only Wednesday evening.

    The only good news is that Scottish constitutional and equality lawyers will be kept very busy over the next few months.

    Every cloud etc.,.

    Depressingly accurate
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 43,682
    NEW: The chairman of Asda has said that Brexit has made Brits suffer and been catastrophic for the UK economy.

    Via @LBC
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 55,355
    edited January 18
    IanB2 said:

    NEW: The chairman of Asda has said that Brexit has made Brits suffer and been catastrophic for the UK economy.

    Via @LBC

    The same Stuart Rose who fought to win the remain argument?

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/stuart-rose-businessman-who-backed-immigration-for-cutting-wages-to-lead-campaign-to-keep-britain-in-the-eu-a6688561.html
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 8,327
    IanB2 said:

    NEW: The chairman of Asda has said that Brexit has made Brits suffer and been catastrophic for the UK economy.

    Via @LBC

    Wow. Back in the day there would be talk of Asda boycotts and 'What's this guy thinking of pissing off his Leaver customer base?' Not now. The passion has gone right out of the argument.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 36,825

    IanB2 said:

    NEW: The chairman of Asda has said that Brexit has made Brits suffer and been catastrophic for the UK economy.

    Via @LBC

    The same Stuart Rose who fought to win the remain argument?
    Increasingly the voting public think him correct.

    Wise after the event.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 28,188
    FPT

    Cookie said:

    Carnyx said:

    Chris said:

    Nigelb said:

    Chris said:

    Vigilant as always, a spokesman for the prime minister has weighed in on the public debate about whether people should take cakes into work or not.

    "As to the government's official position, the prime minister's official spokesman said Rishi Sunak believed "personal choice should be baked into our approach".
    [blah]
    Mr Sunak's spokesman added that the prime minister was "very partial to a piece of cake" and most enjoyed carrot and red velvet cake."
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-64315384

    If Mr Sunak enjoys a piece of cake, I for one will vote to keep him in Downing Street. Hurrah!

    Sounds a fairly unpleasant American creation.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_velvet_cake

    On a culinary note, Lindsay Hoyle and chocolate teapot are trending on Twitter.
    I must admit I didn't bother to look for further details about the prime minister's favourite cake, beyond mentally noting that it sounded comfortably within the Western tradition of desserts.
    In the santanic mills of western Pennsylvania back in the day, the Slavs & Italians who dominated the workforce at turn of 19th>20th-cen., called the English/Scots-Irish "native stock" workers and foremen "cake-eaters" because their wives would typically include a piece of cake in their lunch-boxes. Rich and rare behavior from perspective of eastern & southern European recent immigrants.

    My take is, Rishi Sunak is placing himself comfortably within the British tradition of desserts?

    With red velvet carrot cake being a modernizing twist?

    BTW, intensive research (two minutes googling) revels that the KEY difference between red velvet versus devils food cakes, is . . . wait for it . . . cocoa versus chocolate.
    There is a class (and consequently VAT) consequence to this.

    Cakes are considered a necessary foodstuff, as part of a genteel afternoon tea, and are therefore exempt from VAT. Chocolate-covered biscuits are a wanton luxury, indulged in by the working class, and so consequently face the full rate of VAT at 20% to ensure that the workers are dissuaded from falling prey to their gluttonous instincts.
    TBF many cakes are desserts and vv - pineapple upside down cake, Bakewell tart, etc. The demartcation might be whether one can have them with custards.

    Though we often have shortbread with our rhubarb and cream for afters - yet that remains a biscuit.
    'Dessert' is one of my most disliked words (along with 'horrid' and 'movie'). It always sounds a


    bit Hyacinth Bucket to me. I think it's because the stress is on the second syllable. Never trust a two-syllable word with the stress on the second syllable. I use 'pudding'.
    Interestingly, an Irish friend of mine finds it hilarious that I use the word 'pudding', thinking it tremendously posh, and finds 'dessert' very much the everyman option.
    Dessert is decidedly non-U.

    It’s pudding.
    We always called it 'afters'.
    That's odd, Richard. So did we. I always thought it was a bit of an East End thing but I don't believe you are of that tribe. I'm intrigued.

    Btw, we also called the midday meal dinner. Tea was the meal you had when you came home from work in the evening. This usage is reflected in the Waste Land, no less, so maybe it was more common once:

    'At the violet hour, the evening hour that strives
    Homeward, and brings the sailor home from sea,
    The typist home at teatime,....'
    My Dad was from the Leyton and my Mum from Camberwell. So probably where we got it from.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 28,188
    IanB2 said:

    NEW: The chairman of Asda has said that Brexit has made Brits suffer and been catastrophic for the UK economy.

    Via @LBC

    That would be Stuart Rose - Chairman of Britain Stronger in Europe and vociferous opponent of Brexit during the referendum campaign. No axe to grid there of course.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 25,298
    edited January 18
    I'm actually of the belief, from my admittedly small scale soundings, that if the teachers had balloted specifically on funding, not pay, the vote and turnout would have been bigger.
    We really don't want to strike.
    Especially not about our pay.
  • tysontyson Posts: 6,014
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Roger said:

    Interesting discussion about the NHS on Ch4. Wes Streeting a revelation. Surely a potential Labour leader? The Tories were represented by Helen Whately (?). She seemed pleasant enough but you were left asking yourself how someone with those limitations could become an MP let alone a minister.

    Really? Streeting seems a nasty piece of work to me. I wouldn't trust him an inch.
    What makes you think that of Streeting?
    He is two faced, he complains that the Tories won't negotiate over nurses pay, yet won't support them getting more pay. He is a snake.
    I don't see how that follows. Encouraging the government to negotiate is one thing - everyone on here seems to support that.

    I suspect the Labour leadership are deliberately trying to resist being painted as in the pockets of the Unions. Cynical, maybe, but 'nasty piece of work' seems a bit excessive.
    What is there to negotiate but a better pay rise? If he won't support that then it is just cant on Streetings part.
    Comrade...you voted Cameron in 2010...like many other NHS Doctors (and staff) did...very fucking sadly and to the detriment of the NHS...but there you go...

    My sister is a Tory in denial....in a similar way..... I have no sympathies.

    The nature of the beast...go with your blue instincts. Stop trying to be liberal, and let your character shine through....



  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 11,576
    IanB2 said:

    NEW: The chairman of Asda has said that Brexit has made Brits suffer and been catastrophic for the UK economy.

    Via @LBC

    Catastrophic is a tad extreme. Lots of stuff has gone on, covid, the war and Brexit. Things are not that rosy, but I struggle to see that all would be great if only we hadn’t brexited.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 5,759

    It's no surprise that people want a decent pay rise, and it's no surprise that the public is generally supportive of that. Today's inflation rate was slightly down at 10.5%, but food prices were rising at 16.8% to December. Meanwhile, energy bills keep rising whatever is happening to the wholesale cost of energy; I've just received notification that my monthly bill is £264 a month, compared with £97 at this time last year.

    Guess what average and low paid people spend much of their income on? Food and energy bills, and for many fuel. An average pay rise of 2.7% in the public sector just isn't enough, especially in the context of falling real incomes over the last 10 years for most public sector workers.

    In an ideal world everyone would have a pay rise to match inflation and of course everyone backs tax rises as long as it is not theirs

    I have no idea how this is resolved but Sunak and Hunt seem to have an accountants mentality of balancing the books and as they have come this far and taken the flak, I expect no change by them this side of the new tax year

    However, the big problem comes in April when pensions, benefits and the living wage do rise by 10.1% which by the way is fully endorsed by Starmer and indeed the Lib Dems, when in truth it should be capped nearer to 5%
    So, you'd cap benefit rises and the living wage rise to 5%. When food prices are rising by 16.8%, and even higher for many basic foodstuffs? Let them starve, eh? (Any by the way, I never said that pay rises should be in line with inflation - just that what is being offered is inadequate).
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 28,188

    IanB2 said:

    NEW: The chairman of Asda has said that Brexit has made Brits suffer and been catastrophic for the UK economy.

    Via @LBC

    Wow. Back in the day there would be talk of Asda boycotts and 'What's this guy thinking of pissing off his Leaver customer base?' Not now. The passion has gone right out of the argument.
    Because its pointless. We left.
  • BournvilleBournville Posts: 259
    IanB2 said:

    NEW: The chairman of Asda has said that Brexit has made Brits suffer and been catastrophic for the UK economy.

    Via @LBC

    Shocking news as billion-quid megacorp wants governments to provide cheaper labour
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 28,188
    Leon said:

    A night on the town in Bangkok. It is, if anything, more entertaining than ever. Basically you become a Roman Emperor for 3 hours

    There are worse fates, as Heliogabulus once pointed out

    I should introduce you to my friend Harry Sidebottom.
  • tysontyson Posts: 6,014
    At Foxy above....in 2010 I was a regional director in the NHS...and I couldn't quite believe just how many middle class white doctors were so enamoured with Cameron....just because they disliked NuLab targets....Arrogance at the extreme....

    I have so little sympathy for any of you.....
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 36,825

    IanB2 said:

    NEW: The chairman of Asda has said that Brexit has made Brits suffer and been catastrophic for the UK economy.

    Via @LBC

    Shocking news as billion-quid megacorp wants governments to provide cheaper labour
    Well the brexiteer government is providing cheap labour itself, with the mean of both private and public sector pay resulting in real terms pay cuts.

    Whatever happened to the high wage economy?
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 17,643

    IanB2 said:

    NEW: The chairman of Asda has said that Brexit has made Brits suffer and been catastrophic for the UK economy.

    Via @LBC

    Wow. Back in the day there would be talk of Asda boycotts and 'What's this guy thinking of pissing off his Leaver customer base?' Not now. The passion has gone right out of the argument.
    That’s because he’s essentially correct, and all thinking people know it.

    Not that there’s a quick fix.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 25,298
    edited January 18
    tyson said:

    At Foxy above....in 2010 I was a regional director in the NHS...and I couldn't quite believe just how many middle class white doctors were so enamoured with Cameron....just because they disliked NuLab targets....Arrogance at the extreme....

    I have so little sympathy for any of you.....

    Cameron won teachers as well in 2010. For similar reasons.
    Bloody woke lefties.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 36,825
    tyson said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Roger said:

    Interesting discussion about the NHS on Ch4. Wes Streeting a revelation. Surely a potential Labour leader? The Tories were represented by Helen Whately (?). She seemed pleasant enough but you were left asking yourself how someone with those limitations could become an MP let alone a minister.

    Really? Streeting seems a nasty piece of work to me. I wouldn't trust him an inch.
    What makes you think that of Streeting?
    He is two faced, he complains that the Tories won't negotiate over nurses pay, yet won't support them getting more pay. He is a snake.
    I don't see how that follows. Encouraging the government to negotiate is one thing - everyone on here seems to support that.

    I suspect the Labour leadership are deliberately trying to resist being painted as in the pockets of the Unions. Cynical, maybe, but 'nasty piece of work' seems a bit excessive.
    What is there to negotiate but a better pay rise? If he won't support that then it is just cant on Streetings part.
    Comrade...you voted Cameron in 2010...like many other NHS Doctors (and staff) did...very fucking sadly and to the detriment of the NHS...but there you go...

    My sister is a Tory in denial....in a similar way..... I have no sympathies.

    The nature of the beast...go with your blue instincts. Stop trying to be liberal, and let your character shine through....

    Perhaps ask yourself why so many were not impressed by New Labour on the NHS.

    Though the Tories did blow that opportunity.

  • It's no surprise that people want a decent pay rise, and it's no surprise that the public is generally supportive of that. Today's inflation rate was slightly down at 10.5%, but food prices were rising at 16.8% to December. Meanwhile, energy bills keep rising whatever is happening to the wholesale cost of energy; I've just received notification that my monthly bill is £264 a month, compared with £97 at this time last year.

    Guess what average and low paid people spend much of their income on? Food and energy bills, and for many fuel. An average pay rise of 2.7% in the public sector just isn't enough, especially in the context of falling real incomes over the last 10 years for most public sector workers.

    In an ideal world everyone would have a pay rise to match inflation and of course everyone backs tax rises as long as it is not theirs

    I have no idea how this is resolved but Sunak and Hunt seem to have an accountants mentality of balancing the books and as they have come this far and taken the flak, I expect no change by them this side of the new tax year

    However, the big problem comes in April when pensions, benefits and the living wage do rise by 10.1% which by the way is fully endorsed by Starmer and indeed the Lib Dems, when in truth it should be capped nearer to 5%
    So, you'd cap benefit rises and the living wage rise to 5%. When food prices are rising by 16.8%, and even higher for many basic foodstuffs? Let them starve, eh? (Any by the way, I never said that pay rises should be in line with inflation - just that what is being offered is inadequate).
    That is not what I am saying

    Inflation will fall over the next 6 months and as we cannot afford 10% public sector rises neither can the triple lock be justified

    A fairer settlement would be nearer 5% maybe 6%
  • RogerRoger Posts: 17,634
    These polls should surprise no one. This government is the 'Brexit Government'. The public are seeing the country slowly sliding towards penury thanks to a catastrophic error of judgement made by their rulers and they can't see why Joe Public should be asked to bail them out when they haven't even apologised
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 5,759

    It's no surprise that people want a decent pay rise, and it's no surprise that the public is generally supportive of that. Today's inflation rate was slightly down at 10.5%, but food prices were rising at 16.8% to December. Meanwhile, energy bills keep rising whatever is happening to the wholesale cost of energy; I've just received notification that my monthly bill is £264 a month, compared with £97 at this time last year.

    Guess what average and low paid people spend much of their income on? Food and energy bills, and for many fuel. An average pay rise of 2.7% in the public sector just isn't enough, especially in the context of falling real incomes over the last 10 years for most public sector workers.

    In an ideal world everyone would have a pay rise to match inflation and of course everyone backs tax rises as long as it is not theirs

    I have no idea how this is resolved but Sunak and Hunt seem to have an accountants mentality of balancing the books and as they have come this far and taken the flak, I expect no change by them this side of the new tax year

    However, the big problem comes in April when pensions, benefits and the living wage do rise by 10.1% which by the way is fully endorsed by Starmer and indeed the Lib Dems, when in truth it should be capped nearer to 5%
    So, you'd cap benefit rises and the living wage rise to 5%. When food prices are rising by 16.8%, and even higher for many basic foodstuffs? Let them starve, eh? (Any by the way, I never said that pay rises should be in line with inflation - just that what is being offered is inadequate).
    That is not what I am saying

    Inflation will fall over the next 6 months and as we cannot afford 10% public sector rises neither can the triple lock be justified

    A fairer settlement would be nearer 5% maybe 6%
    Sorry Big G, but that's exactly what you said. You wrote:
    However, the big problem comes in April when pensions, benefits and the living wage do rise by 10.1% which by the way is fully endorsed by Starmer and indeed the Lib Dems, when in truth it should be capped nearer to 5%.
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 896
    Roger said:

    These polls should surprise no one. This government is the 'Brexit Government'. The public are seeing the country slowly sliding towards penury thanks to a catastrophic error of judgement made by their rulers and they can't see why Joe Public should be asked to bail them out when they haven't even apologised

    Liz is merely taking her MP's salary - I'm not sure how more apologetic you expect our rulers to be>
  • Roger said:

    These polls should surprise no one. This government is the 'Brexit Government'. The public are seeing the country slowly sliding towards penury thanks to a catastrophic error of judgement made by their rulers and they can't see why Joe Public should be asked to bail them out when they haven't even apologised

    Starmer's government will also be a brexit government but the real problems in the economy are directly caused from covid and the war in Ukraine

    Brexit is a part of the problem maybem, but not anything like you try to imply
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 36,825
    Roger said:

    These polls should surprise no one. This government is the 'Brexit Government'. The public are seeing the country slowly sliding towards penury thanks to a catastrophic error of judgement made by their rulers and they can't see why Joe Public should be asked to bail them out when they haven't even apologised

    I think this substantially so. This government is so despised that the public will back almost any group of people standing against it. Never have strikers been so popular.
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 8,327
    Roger said:

    These polls should surprise no one. This government is the 'Brexit Government'. The public are seeing the country slowly sliding towards penury thanks to a catastrophic error of judgement made by their rulers and they can't see why Joe Public should be asked to bail them out when they haven't even apologised

    Yes, Rishi could do worse than issue a statement of contrition: 'Brexit was the Will of the People and all that, but my predecessors (Boris in particular) bungled it, but I blame myself as I should have stepped in sooner.' That would show Rishi as a rational politician of humility and grace.
  • It's no surprise that people want a decent pay rise, and it's no surprise that the public is generally supportive of that. Today's inflation rate was slightly down at 10.5%, but food prices were rising at 16.8% to December. Meanwhile, energy bills keep rising whatever is happening to the wholesale cost of energy; I've just received notification that my monthly bill is £264 a month, compared with £97 at this time last year.

    Guess what average and low paid people spend much of their income on? Food and energy bills, and for many fuel. An average pay rise of 2.7% in the public sector just isn't enough, especially in the context of falling real incomes over the last 10 years for most public sector workers.

    In an ideal world everyone would have a pay rise to match inflation and of course everyone backs tax rises as long as it is not theirs

    I have no idea how this is resolved but Sunak and Hunt seem to have an accountants mentality of balancing the books and as they have come this far and taken the flak, I expect no change by them this side of the new tax year

    However, the big problem comes in April when pensions, benefits and the living wage do rise by 10.1% which by the way is fully endorsed by Starmer and indeed the Lib Dems, when in truth it should be capped nearer to 5%
    So, you'd cap benefit rises and the living wage rise to 5%. When food prices are rising by 16.8%, and even higher for many basic foodstuffs? Let them starve, eh? (Any by the way, I never said that pay rises should be in line with inflation - just that what is being offered is inadequate).
    That is not what I am saying

    Inflation will fall over the next 6 months and as we cannot afford 10% public sector rises neither can the triple lock be justified

    A fairer settlement would be nearer 5% maybe 6%
    Sorry Big G, but that's exactly what you said. You wrote:
    However, the big problem comes in April when pensions, benefits and the living wage do rise by 10.1% which by the way is fully endorsed by Starmer and indeed the Lib Dems, when in truth it should be capped nearer to 5%.
    I am not saying let them starve, I am making a point of fairness and as a pensioner I do not support the triple lock
  • RogerRoger Posts: 17,634

    IanB2 said:

    NEW: The chairman of Asda has said that Brexit has made Brits suffer and been catastrophic for the UK economy.

    Via @LBC

    That would be Stuart Rose - Chairman of Britain Stronger in Europe and vociferous opponent of Brexit during the referendum campaign. No axe to grid there of course.
    So he's entitled to say 'I told you so'. If only you clowns had listened.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 5,759
    DavidL said:

    dixiedean said:

    There is no point, though, in a pay rise which comes out of the current education budget. That is as much of a source of discontent as the pay.
    We see every day how sheer lack of funding is failing vulnerable kids.

    The Education Minister, possibly the SoS, was on Today this morning and quite good, I thought. She said that the Unions told her they needed the Education budget increased by £2bn and she got that in a budget where largesse wasn't exactly being thrown around. It was a fair point.
    She was also hinting that a flying start on next year's settlement was the way forward, looking forward rather than back as she put it.
    "We're calling off the strikes because a government Minister has hinted that a flying start on next year's settlement is the way forward".

    I'm not sure that will fly with a government that isn't, er, completely trusted.
  • Roger said:

    IanB2 said:

    NEW: The chairman of Asda has said that Brexit has made Brits suffer and been catastrophic for the UK economy.

    Via @LBC

    That would be Stuart Rose - Chairman of Britain Stronger in Europe and vociferous opponent of Brexit during the referendum campaign. No axe to grid there of course.
    So he's entitled to say 'I told you so'. If only you clowns had listened.
    Calling 17 million voters clowns is why we got brexit
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 25,298
    edited January 18

    Roger said:

    These polls should surprise no one. This government is the 'Brexit Government'. The public are seeing the country slowly sliding towards penury thanks to a catastrophic error of judgement made by their rulers and they can't see why Joe Public should be asked to bail them out when they haven't even apologised

    Starmer's government will also be a brexit government but the real problems in the economy are directly caused from covid and the war in Ukraine

    Brexit is a part of the problem maybem, but not anything like you try to imply
    Systematic lack of funding (highly celebrated as morally right), over a decade left them with no resilience whatsoever to absorb a shock.
    Never mind two.
  • dixiedean said:

    Roger said:

    These polls should surprise no one. This government is the 'Brexit Government'. The public are seeing the country slowly sliding towards penury thanks to a catastrophic error of judgement made by their rulers and they can't see why Joe Public should be asked to bail them out when they haven't even apologised

    Starmer's government will also be a brexit government but the real problems in the economy are directly caused from covid and the war in Ukraine

    Brexit is a part of the problem maybem, but not anything like you try to imply
    Systematic lack of funding over a decade left them with no resilience whatsoever to absorb a shock.
    Never mind two.
    The same debate is going on in countries across Europe, in Canada and beyond
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 36,825

    Roger said:

    These polls should surprise no one. This government is the 'Brexit Government'. The public are seeing the country slowly sliding towards penury thanks to a catastrophic error of judgement made by their rulers and they can't see why Joe Public should be asked to bail them out when they haven't even apologised

    Starmer's government will also be a brexit government but the real problems in the economy are directly caused from covid and the war in Ukraine

    Brexit is a part of the problem maybem, but not anything like you try to imply
    I have very low expectations of a Starmer government, though will cheer the end of the current bunch of mendacious self serving crooks.

    The Labour cupboard is completely bare of ideas, just the same crap delivered by Streeting instead of Barclay.

    I shall hang on until the summer to see what the next pay round brings, but if it is another real terms pay cut, then I will be taking retirement and contract back in on agency terms.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 47,316
    Good article on “original antigenic sin”.
    Interesting throughout for those still interested in the topic of COVID or viral immune response.

    How your first brush with COVID warps your immunity
    The immune system responds more strongly to the strain of a virus that it first met, weakening response to other strains. Can this ‘imprinting’ be overcome?
    https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-023-00086-1
  • Foxy said:

    Roger said:

    These polls should surprise no one. This government is the 'Brexit Government'. The public are seeing the country slowly sliding towards penury thanks to a catastrophic error of judgement made by their rulers and they can't see why Joe Public should be asked to bail them out when they haven't even apologised

    Starmer's government will also be a brexit government but the real problems in the economy are directly caused from covid and the war in Ukraine

    Brexit is a part of the problem maybem, but not anything like you try to imply
    I have very low expectations of a Starmer government, though will cheer the end of the current bunch of mendacious self serving crooks.

    The Labour cupboard is completely bare of ideas, just the same crap delivered by Streeting instead of Barclay.

    I shall hang on until the summer to see what the next pay round brings, but if it is another real terms pay cut, then I will be taking retirement and contract back in on agency terms.
    And in many ways that is the problem

    This government has run out of time and Starmer is more than likely to win in 24 but neither he or labour have any hope of changing much

    Indeed I heard a Union representative when hearing Starmer's comments on self referral for internal bleeding and using the private sector say we may as well have the Tories !!!!
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 32,152
    Roger said:

    IanB2 said:

    NEW: The chairman of Asda has said that Brexit has made Brits suffer and been catastrophic for the UK economy.

    Via @LBC

    That would be Stuart Rose - Chairman of Britain Stronger in Europe and vociferous opponent of Brexit during the referendum campaign. No axe to grid there of course.
    So he's entitled to say 'I told you so'. If only you clowns had listened.
    He was also the idiot who made a serious contribution to Remain losing.

    Wibbling that Leave would mean higher wages for the low paid, was pure Montgomery Burns.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 20,423
    Leon said:

    A night on the town in Bangkok. It is, if anything, more entertaining than ever. Basically you become a Roman Emperor for 3 hours

    There are worse fates, as Heliogabulus once pointed out

    Better than it was in the 80s and 90s?
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 25,298

    dixiedean said:

    Roger said:

    These polls should surprise no one. This government is the 'Brexit Government'. The public are seeing the country slowly sliding towards penury thanks to a catastrophic error of judgement made by their rulers and they can't see why Joe Public should be asked to bail them out when they haven't even apologised

    Starmer's government will also be a brexit government but the real problems in the economy are directly caused from covid and the war in Ukraine

    Brexit is a part of the problem maybem, but not anything like you try to imply
    Systematic lack of funding over a decade left them with no resilience whatsoever to absorb a shock.
    Never mind two.
    The same debate is going on in countries across Europe, in Canada and beyond
    Indeed it is.
    And the conclusion is?
    To protect the comfortably off we've gone for 15 years of the most vulnerable suffering.
    That's my take.
  • dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    Roger said:

    These polls should surprise no one. This government is the 'Brexit Government'. The public are seeing the country slowly sliding towards penury thanks to a catastrophic error of judgement made by their rulers and they can't see why Joe Public should be asked to bail them out when they haven't even apologised

    Starmer's government will also be a brexit government but the real problems in the economy are directly caused from covid and the war in Ukraine

    Brexit is a part of the problem maybem, but not anything like you try to imply
    Systematic lack of funding over a decade left them with no resilience whatsoever to absorb a shock.
    Never mind two.
    The same debate is going on in countries across Europe, in Canada and beyond
    Indeed it is.
    And the conclusion is?
    To protect the comfortably off we've gone for 15 years of the most vulnerable suffering.
    That's my take.
    Well it was the coalition government who introduced the triple lock and when Sunak considered stopping it last year, the rage from Labour and the Lib Dems ensured it continues
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 25,298

    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    Roger said:

    These polls should surprise no one. This government is the 'Brexit Government'. The public are seeing the country slowly sliding towards penury thanks to a catastrophic error of judgement made by their rulers and they can't see why Joe Public should be asked to bail them out when they haven't even apologised

    Starmer's government will also be a brexit government but the real problems in the economy are directly caused from covid and the war in Ukraine

    Brexit is a part of the problem maybem, but not anything like you try to imply
    Systematic lack of funding over a decade left them with no resilience whatsoever to absorb a shock.
    Never mind two.
    The same debate is going on in countries across Europe, in Canada and beyond
    Indeed it is.
    And the conclusion is?
    To protect the comfortably off we've gone for 15 years of the most vulnerable suffering.
    That's my take.
    Well it was the coalition government who introduced the triple lock and when Sunak considered stopping it last year, the rage from Labour and the Lib Dems ensured it continues
    See.
    I'm not talking about pensioners.
    I'm talking about the most vulnerable.
    Which kinda proves my point.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 17,643

    IanB2 said:

    NEW: The chairman of Asda has said that Brexit has made Brits suffer and been catastrophic for the UK economy.

    Via @LBC

    Catastrophic is a tad extreme. Lots of stuff has gone on, covid, the war and Brexit. Things are not that rosy, but I struggle to see that all would be great if only we hadn’t brexited.
    Britain has been in long-term relative decline for a very long time. We've often discussed some of the contributory reasons - poor management, short-termist investment culture, substandard technical education, class snobbery towards skilled trades, dominance of rent-seeking, etc - and these have been a feature from before Britain joined the Common Market, let alone voted to leave.

    Immediate events such as Covid, or the war in Ukraine, are hardly the cause of our problems, they merely serve to expose how weak Britain's economic position has become. Brexit is a sideshow, except insofar as it reveals a voting public willing to accept uncritically the wishful thinking and make believe of a political class who dare not face reality.

    Believing that reversing Brexit would fix the country's woes is simply a different flavour of denial.
    I don’t know if anyone believes they reversing Brexit would fix the country’s woes.

    Perhaps the settling consensus is that it’s a self-inflicted wound that can (perhaps) be undone, whereas the others issues are more chronic.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 11,241
    My wife has only been out of the house for 14 hours, yet I've become an incredible doom-monger. Hopefully she will be back soon, and I'll be in a cheerier mood tomorrow.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 57,769
    I can't believe this is actually true. Germany banning the export of tanks to Ukraine unless America sends its own tanks would be absurd. It makes all Europe, not just Germany, look ridiculous. Dispiriting that there hasn't been a denial out of Berlin yet.

    https://twitter.com/spignal/status/1615814661345054735
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 17,643

    dixiedean said:

    Roger said:

    These polls should surprise no one. This government is the 'Brexit Government'. The public are seeing the country slowly sliding towards penury thanks to a catastrophic error of judgement made by their rulers and they can't see why Joe Public should be asked to bail them out when they haven't even apologised

    Starmer's government will also be a brexit government but the real problems in the economy are directly caused from covid and the war in Ukraine

    Brexit is a part of the problem maybem, but not anything like you try to imply
    Systematic lack of funding over a decade left them with no resilience whatsoever to absorb a shock.
    Never mind two.
    The same debate is going on in countries across Europe, in Canada and beyond
    Variations of the debate, but not the same.
    British productivity decline, failure to invest in capital infrastructure, and planning dysfunction are all statistically exceptional.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 11,241

    IanB2 said:

    NEW: The chairman of Asda has said that Brexit has made Brits suffer and been catastrophic for the UK economy.

    Via @LBC

    Catastrophic is a tad extreme. Lots of stuff has gone on, covid, the war and Brexit. Things are not that rosy, but I struggle to see that all would be great if only we hadn’t brexited.
    Britain has been in long-term relative decline for a very long time. We've often discussed some of the contributory reasons - poor management, short-termist investment culture, substandard technical education, class snobbery towards skilled trades, dominance of rent-seeking, etc - and these have been a feature from before Britain joined the Common Market, let alone voted to leave.

    Immediate events such as Covid, or the war in Ukraine, are hardly the cause of our problems, they merely serve to expose how weak Britain's economic position has become. Brexit is a sideshow, except insofar as it reveals a voting public willing to accept uncritically the wishful thinking and make believe of a political class who dare not face reality.

    Believing that reversing Brexit would fix the country's woes is simply a different flavour of denial.
    I don’t know if anyone believes they reversing Brexit would fix the country’s woes.

    Perhaps the settling consensus is that it’s a self-inflicted wound that can (perhaps) be undone, whereas the others issues are more chronic.
    Several posters on pb.com give the impression that Brexit is the source of all our woes, which naturally leads to the conclusion that they believe reversing it would be a cure-all.
  • DJ41DJ41 Posts: 792
    edited January 18
    It could be that grownups in both major parties plan to lose their current leader in good time for the election but they'd prefer the other side to move first.

    Rayner could wipe the floor with Sunak.

    The problem with any scenario involving getting rid of Sunak is he's got a lot of money behind him. And although he was only a commoner at Winchester he is no fool. Using Truss as a stool to step on was masterful :smile:
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 36,825

    Roger said:

    IanB2 said:

    NEW: The chairman of Asda has said that Brexit has made Brits suffer and been catastrophic for the UK economy.

    Via @LBC

    That would be Stuart Rose - Chairman of Britain Stronger in Europe and vociferous opponent of Brexit during the referendum campaign. No axe to grid there of course.
    So he's entitled to say 'I told you so'. If only you clowns had listened.
    He was also the idiot who made a serious contribution to Remain losing.

    Wibbling that Leave would mean higher wages for the low paid, was pure Montgomery Burns.
    While the reality of Brexit is lower real terms pay for the workers.
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 2,643
    I see Dyson is now whining about red tape . The same Dyson who wanked on about how wonderful Brexit would be and then fxcked off to Malaysia . Can’t this odious handmaiden of Brexit just STFU .
  • DJ41DJ41 Posts: 792

    IanB2 said:

    NEW: The chairman of Asda has said that Brexit has made Brits suffer and been catastrophic for the UK economy.

    Via @LBC

    Catastrophic is a tad extreme. Lots of stuff has gone on, covid, the war and Brexit. Things are not that rosy, but I struggle to see that all would be great if only we hadn’t brexited.
    Britain has been in long-term relative decline for a very long time. We've often discussed some of the contributory reasons - poor management, short-termist investment culture, substandard technical education, class snobbery towards skilled trades, dominance of rent-seeking, etc - and these have been a feature from before Britain joined the Common Market, let alone voted to leave.

    Immediate events such as Covid, or the war in Ukraine, are hardly the cause of our problems, they merely serve to expose how weak Britain's economic position has become. Brexit is a sideshow, except insofar as it reveals a voting public willing to accept uncritically the wishful thinking and make believe of a political class who dare not face reality.

    Believing that reversing Brexit would fix the country's woes is simply a different flavour of denial.
    I don’t know if anyone believes they reversing Brexit would fix the country’s woes.

    Perhaps the settling consensus is that it’s a self-inflicted wound that can (perhaps) be undone, whereas the others issues are more chronic.
    Several posters on pb.com give the impression that Brexit is the source of all our woes, which naturally leads to the conclusion that they believe reversing it would be a cure-all.
    Unless it's too late. Pulling a knife out of a murder victim's back doesn't bring them alive again. Just saying.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 36,825

    Foxy said:

    Roger said:

    These polls should surprise no one. This government is the 'Brexit Government'. The public are seeing the country slowly sliding towards penury thanks to a catastrophic error of judgement made by their rulers and they can't see why Joe Public should be asked to bail them out when they haven't even apologised

    Starmer's government will also be a brexit government but the real problems in the economy are directly caused from covid and the war in Ukraine

    Brexit is a part of the problem maybem, but not anything like you try to imply
    I have very low expectations of a Starmer government, though will cheer the end of the current bunch of mendacious self serving crooks.

    The Labour cupboard is completely bare of ideas, just the same crap delivered by Streeting instead of Barclay.

    I shall hang on until the summer to see what the next pay round brings, but if it is another real terms pay cut, then I will be taking retirement and contract back in on agency terms.
    And in many ways that is the problem

    This government has run out of time and Starmer is more than likely to win in 24 but neither he or labour have any hope of changing much

    Indeed I heard a Union representative when hearing Starmer's comments on self referral for internal bleeding and using the private sector say we may as well have the Tories !!!!
    The thing is that Starmer isn't even planning to change much.

    The animals look from pig to man, but can no longer see the difference.
  • According to German media reports, Schulz is said to be ready to send Leopard 2 tanks to Ukraine as well as allow other countries to do so, but only on condition that the US also sends Abrams tanks.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 17,643
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Roger said:

    These polls should surprise no one. This government is the 'Brexit Government'. The public are seeing the country slowly sliding towards penury thanks to a catastrophic error of judgement made by their rulers and they can't see why Joe Public should be asked to bail them out when they haven't even apologised

    Starmer's government will also be a brexit government but the real problems in the economy are directly caused from covid and the war in Ukraine

    Brexit is a part of the problem maybem, but not anything like you try to imply
    I have very low expectations of a Starmer government, though will cheer the end of the current bunch of mendacious self serving crooks.

    The Labour cupboard is completely bare of ideas, just the same crap delivered by Streeting instead of Barclay.

    I shall hang on until the summer to see what the next pay round brings, but if it is another real terms pay cut, then I will be taking retirement and contract back in on agency terms.
    And in many ways that is the problem

    This government has run out of time and Starmer is more than likely to win in 24 but neither he or labour have any hope of changing much

    Indeed I heard a Union representative when hearing Starmer's comments on self referral for internal bleeding and using the private sector say we may as well have the Tories !!!!
    The thing is that Starmer isn't even planning to change much.

    The animals look from pig to man, but can no longer see the difference.
    I’m not a massive fan, but this is unfair.
    Indeed it’s essentially the reiteration of a Tory talking point.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 36,825

    dixiedean said:

    Roger said:

    These polls should surprise no one. This government is the 'Brexit Government'. The public are seeing the country slowly sliding towards penury thanks to a catastrophic error of judgement made by their rulers and they can't see why Joe Public should be asked to bail them out when they haven't even apologised

    Starmer's government will also be a brexit government but the real problems in the economy are directly caused from covid and the war in Ukraine

    Brexit is a part of the problem maybem, but not anything like you try to imply
    Systematic lack of funding over a decade left them with no resilience whatsoever to absorb a shock.
    Never mind two.
    The same debate is going on in countries across Europe, in Canada and beyond
    Variations of the debate, but not the same.
    British productivity decline, failure to invest in capital infrastructure, and planning dysfunction are all statistically exceptional.
    Indeed in this the problems of the NHS are the same as the country at large. Turgid planning, short termism, poor productivity, failure to invest in capital equipment or staff.

    I don't see this changing in the NHS any more than in the rest of society.
  • According to German media reports, Schulz is said to be ready to send Leopard 2 tanks to Ukraine as well as allow other countries to do so, but only on condition that the US also sends Abrams tanks.

    Germany should be leading the EU on this, not hiding behind the US

    They have shamefully equivocated throughout
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 43,344

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Roger said:

    These polls should surprise no one. This government is the 'Brexit Government'. The public are seeing the country slowly sliding towards penury thanks to a catastrophic error of judgement made by their rulers and they can't see why Joe Public should be asked to bail them out when they haven't even apologised

    Starmer's government will also be a brexit government but the real problems in the economy are directly caused from covid and the war in Ukraine

    Brexit is a part of the problem maybem, but not anything like you try to imply
    I have very low expectations of a Starmer government, though will cheer the end of the current bunch of mendacious self serving crooks.

    The Labour cupboard is completely bare of ideas, just the same crap delivered by Streeting instead of Barclay.

    I shall hang on until the summer to see what the next pay round brings, but if it is another real terms pay cut, then I will be taking retirement and contract back in on agency terms.
    And in many ways that is the problem

    This government has run out of time and Starmer is more than likely to win in 24 but neither he or labour have any hope of changing much

    Indeed I heard a Union representative when hearing Starmer's comments on self referral for internal bleeding and using the private sector say we may as well have the Tories !!!!
    The thing is that Starmer isn't even planning to change much.

    The animals look from pig to man, but can no longer see the difference.
    I’m not a massive fan, but this is unfair.
    Indeed it’s essentially the reiteration of a Tory talking point.
    It's more of a Corbynite talking point.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 19,932
    Real world inflation is higher than the official headlines suggest. I have grizzly anecdata. Two identical funerals almost exactly three years apart. The latter is 60% more expensive. Same everything.
  • Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 4,035
    Foxy said:

    tyson said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Roger said:

    Interesting discussion about the NHS on Ch4. Wes Streeting a revelation. Surely a potential Labour leader? The Tories were represented by Helen Whately (?). She seemed pleasant enough but you were left asking yourself how someone with those limitations could become an MP let alone a minister.

    Really? Streeting seems a nasty piece of work to me. I wouldn't trust him an inch.
    What makes you think that of Streeting?
    He is two faced, he complains that the Tories won't negotiate over nurses pay, yet won't support them getting more pay. He is a snake.
    I don't see how that follows. Encouraging the government to negotiate is one thing - everyone on here seems to support that.

    I suspect the Labour leadership are deliberately trying to resist being painted as in the pockets of the Unions. Cynical, maybe, but 'nasty piece of work' seems a bit excessive.
    What is there to negotiate but a better pay rise? If he won't support that then it is just cant on Streetings part.
    Comrade...you voted Cameron in 2010...like many other NHS Doctors (and staff) did...very fucking sadly and to the detriment of the NHS...but there you go...

    My sister is a Tory in denial....in a similar way..... I have no sympathies.

    The nature of the beast...go with your blue instincts. Stop trying to be liberal, and let your character shine through....

    Perhaps ask yourself why so many were not impressed by New Labour on the NHS.

    Though the Tories did blow that opportunity.

    No, you should remind yourself that it's the customer that matters and that in 2010 public satisfaction with the NHS had grown to stand at an all time record high and has fallen steeply since.

    Your voting record means that you are complicit in that decline. Perhaps you should look yourself in the face and cut Wes Streeting some slack, given Labour's achievements last time. It's going to take a miracle worker to sort out the mess.





  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 17,643
    Jonathan said:

    Real world inflation is higher than the official headlines suggest. I have grizzly anecdata. Two identical funerals almost exactly three years apart. The latter is 60% more expensive. Same everything.

    What I liked about Jeremy Hunt’s unfairly maligned video today is that he actually calls out that inflation for the poorest is higher than for other groups.

    (Slightly tangential to your point here).
  • According to German media reports, Schulz is said to be ready to send Leopard 2 tanks to Ukraine as well as allow other countries to do so, but only on condition that the US also sends Abrams tanks.

    Germany should be leading the EU on this, not hiding behind the US

    They have shamefully equivocated throughout
    Hardly. Germany is the third largest supplier of military aid to Ukraine, has taken in vast numbers of Ukrainian refugees and moved heaven and earth to wean itself off Russian fuels.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 20,506
    edited January 18
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    The main reason that the public are sympathetic is that everyone can see that pay awards fixed by panels before the Bank of England let inflation run out of control are not fair and need adjustment to the current situation. There is room in most of the disputes for settlements that are still below the current rate of inflation and, therefore, a fall in the wage bill in real terms. It is really obvious that this is what should be done.

    There is one thing to be done. Attack the price of energy by increasing supply. That will bring everything back into alignment. The Government shows no urgency or even long term desire to do this. Instead, they seem intent on baking the absurd energy price hikes into the system. That will cripple the entire the economy. It is a wrecking Government.
    Not really sure where you think that they should magic up some cheap energy from. Roughly 40% of our energy comes from gas and it is the flexible part of the system which can step up when the wind doesn't blow. That means gas is the determinant for prices. And I don't see what the government can do about it.
    They could have brought forward the licensing round for North Sea Oil (which is next year), and making sure fields already verified are being exploited. They could have avoided the windfall tax on energy firms that has discouraged North Sea investment and their other deeply damaging changes to allowances that have harmed small oil companies. They could have abandoned the fracking ban, and ensured that any gas from fracking was sold at below market rates to the domestic market. These actions would have increased domestic supply of gas, which let's not forget, is a less carbon intensive fuel than imported LNG.

    A genuine energy security bill with short, medium and long term instruments to ensure plentiful domestic energy supply would have been the number 1 priority of any responsible Government - frankly of any Government. This one is instead entirely in the grip of a frenzied ideological green agenda, that happens to be fine with fossil fuels as long as they're being imported from A N Other shitty regime.
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