The EU took a long time to reach a political position on Ukraine and, when it emerged, it was clearly influenced by embarrassment at the UK and US taking the lead on things like supplying arms, cutting tariffs and strong unambiguous statements of political support. That's different to the Baltic States and Poland looking to their own defences and screaming blue murder at the EU to do more, which they still haven't fully stepped up to do.
None of that has anything to do with British membership of the EU.
The UK could have done exactly what they did for Ukraine while being an EU member and other EU members have done more.
So tout the British aid to Ukraine as some sort of specious Brexit benefit doesn't really stack up.
I don't think you know how the CFSP works nor how the EU setting tarrifs works.
Come back when you've done a bit more research.
So what did the UK do that would have been impossible inside the EU?
Come back when you've learnt how to spell tariff.
I've always quite you're quite bright, if a little disturbed.
Maybe you're actually secretly a bit thick and desperate that no-one sees it.
When they tested us at BRNC I was exactly on on the median IQ though I can't imagine that the multiple motorcycle accidents, fistfights and at least two episodes of G-LOC have made me any cleverer.
I’m reading Douglas Murray’s “The strange death of Europe”
It’s not for the faint hearted or Woke. It is also rather good, and a devastating analysis of the migrant crisis of the 2010s
Which makes it relevant to this debate. I am pretty sure we will soon be looking at another, even bigger migrant crisis. Something that will dwarf the last. Climate change isn’t going away, Africa and the MENA are still in bad shape, in the main
The EU will be flooded with unwanted migrants. At that point Schengen, Free Movement and the EU as a whole might look like really bad news, and Brexit might seem an inspired choice
Events, dear boy. Events
Non-EU immigration is up. That's non-EU and not via the EU and exploiting FOM.
Presumably all those Brexiteers who said EU FOM was racist and exclusionary will be welcoming these non EU migrants with open arms.
My local big sainsburys in Camden is a fascinating barometer of London’s demographic change
There used to be one small corner devoted to foreign foods, plus a World Foods section with mirin and laksa paste
Now about 10% of the store (and growing) is dedicated to Asian, Halal, East European, Brazilian, Indian, plus a bit of Irish and North American. They have things I’ve never seen before - which is fun
This has happened in the last year
Same in Sainsbury's here (although perhaps in part due to the way they've arranged the shelves recently; a lot of the foods were already there). Similarly a lot of space is now taken up by plant-based "meat and milk" products.
Otherwise known as the junk food aisle ;-)
Cows are now running adverts extolling "beef and dairy".
Along with the turkeys campaigning for a traditional yuletide.
My sense is that's gone off the boil in the last year or two.
Peak vegansignalling was c. 2019.
It'd be interesting to see some hard data. I'm not vegan though I try to have a vegan substitute more often - with the spicier dishes it's pretty hard to tell the difference. It still seems to be spreading in my circle of acquaintances, and I notice that supermarkets are increasingly having the alternatives close to the meat, instead of tucked away in a ghetto section.
There seems to be increasing acceptance that we collectively eat too much meat for environmental reasons , though the Government is leaving it to consumers to take the lead, see e.g.
The EU took a long time to reach a political position on Ukraine and, when it emerged, it was clearly influenced by embarrassment at the UK and US taking the lead on things like supplying arms, cutting tariffs and strong unambiguous statements of political support. That's different to the Baltic States and Poland looking to their own defences and screaming blue murder at the EU to do more, which they still haven't fully stepped up to do.
None of that has anything to do with British membership of the EU.
The UK could have done exactly what they did for Ukraine while being an EU member and other EU members have done more.
So tout the British aid to Ukraine as some sort of specious Brexit benefit doesn't really stack up.
I don't think you know how the CFSP works nor how the EU setting tarrifs works.
Come back when you've done a bit more research.
So what did the UK do that would have been impossible inside the EU?
Come back when you've learnt how to spell tariff.
I've always quite you're quite bright, if a little disturbed.
Maybe you're actually secretly a bit thick and desperate that no-one sees it.
When they tested us at BRNC I was exactly on on the median IQ though I can't imagine that the multiple motorcycle accidents, fistfights and at least two episodes of G-LOC have made me any cleverer.
It's your extensive use of acronyms that gives it away.
I think you know most of us won't have a clue what they stand for, but since you do it reserves a special level of knowledge and authority to you, and that tells me you have a secret insecurity.
If you didn't, you'd explain or spell these out as you went - as other posters do.
The EU took a long time to reach a political position on Ukraine and, when it emerged, it was clearly influenced by embarrassment at the UK and US taking the lead on things like supplying arms, cutting tariffs and strong unambiguous statements of political support. That's different to the Baltic States and Poland looking to their own defences and screaming blue murder at the EU to do more, which they still haven't fully stepped up to do.
None of that has anything to do with British membership of the EU.
The UK could have done exactly what they did for Ukraine while being an EU member and other EU members have done more.
So tout the British aid to Ukraine as some sort of specious Brexit benefit doesn't really stack up.
I don't think you know how the CFSP works nor how the EU setting tarrifs works.
Come back when you've done a bit more research.
So what did the UK do that would have been impossible inside the EU?
Come back when you've learnt how to spell tariff.
I've always quite you're quite bright, if a little disturbed.
Maybe you're actually secretly a bit thick and desperate that no-one sees it.
When they tested us at BRNC I was exactly on on the median IQ though I can't imagine that the multiple motorcycle accidents, fistfights and at least two episodes of G-LOC have made me any cleverer.
It's your extensive use of acronyms that gives it away.
I think you know most of us won't have a clue what they stand for, but since you do it reserves a special level of knowledge and authority to you, and that tells me you have a secret insecurity.
If you didn't, you'd explain or spell these out as you went - as other posters do.
I quite like @Dura_Ace’s acronyms. They add character
Also, he earlier described Kemi Badenoch as a “bespectacled BIPOC She-Corbyn” which is excellent and grants him a free pass to be annoying for the rest of the day
My sense is that's gone off the boil in the last year or two.
Peak vegansignalling was c. 2019.
It'd be interesting to see some hard data. I'm not vegan though I try to have a vegan substitute more often - with the spicier dishes it's pretty hard to tell the difference. It still seems to be spreading in my circle of acquaintances, and I notice that supermarkets are increasingly having the alternatives close to the meat, instead of tucked away in a ghetto section.
There seems to be increasing acceptance that we collectively eat too much meat for environmental reasons , though the Government is leaving it to consumers to take the lead, see e.g.
I suspect it's more that people are adopting a more balanced and proportionate diet rather than going cold turkey and abstaining forever.
It's a bit like how hard-core diets are never sustained beyond a few months; they come in and out of fashion and some try it out to prove something to themselves, and others.
The EU took a long time to reach a political position on Ukraine and, when it emerged, it was clearly influenced by embarrassment at the UK and US taking the lead on things like supplying arms, cutting tariffs and strong unambiguous statements of political support. That's different to the Baltic States and Poland looking to their own defences and screaming blue murder at the EU to do more, which they still haven't fully stepped up to do.
None of that has anything to do with British membership of the EU.
The UK could have done exactly what they did for Ukraine while being an EU member and other EU members have done more.
So tout the British aid to Ukraine as some sort of specious Brexit benefit doesn't really stack up.
I don't think you know how the CFSP works nor how the EU setting tarrifs works.
Come back when you've done a bit more research.
So what did the UK do that would have been impossible inside the EU?
Come back when you've learnt how to spell tariff.
I've always quite you're quite bright, if a little disturbed.
Maybe you're actually secretly a bit thick and desperate that no-one sees it.
When they tested us at BRNC I was exactly on on the median IQ though I can't imagine that the multiple motorcycle accidents, fistfights and at least two episodes of G-LOC have made me any cleverer.
It's your extensive use of acronyms that gives it away.
I think you know most of us won't have a clue what they stand for, but since you do it reserves a special level of knowledge and authority to you, and that tells me you have a secret insecurity.
If you didn't, you'd explain or spell these out as you went - as other posters do.
I quite like @Dura_Ace’s acronyms. They add character
Also, he earlier described Kemi Badenoch as a “bespectacled BIPOC She-Corbyn” which is excellent and grants him a free pass to be annoying for the rest of the day
The EU took a long time to reach a political position on Ukraine and, when it emerged, it was clearly influenced by embarrassment at the UK and US taking the lead on things like supplying arms, cutting tariffs and strong unambiguous statements of political support. That's different to the Baltic States and Poland looking to their own defences and screaming blue murder at the EU to do more, which they still haven't fully stepped up to do.
None of that has anything to do with British membership of the EU.
The UK could have done exactly what they did for Ukraine while being an EU member and other EU members have done more.
So tout the British aid to Ukraine as some sort of specious Brexit benefit doesn't really stack up.
I don't think you know how the CFSP works nor how the EU setting tarrifs works.
Come back when you've done a bit more research.
So what did the UK do that would have been impossible inside the EU?
Come back when you've learnt how to spell tariff.
I've always quite you're quite bright, if a little disturbed.
Maybe you're actually secretly a bit thick and desperate that no-one sees it.
When they tested us at BRNC I was exactly on on the median IQ though I can't imagine that the multiple motorcycle accidents, fistfights and at least two episodes of G-LOC have made me any cleverer.
It's your extensive use of acronyms that gives it away.
I think you know most of us won't have a clue what they stand for, but since you do it reserves a special level of knowledge and authority to you, and that tells me you have a secret insecurity.
If you didn't, you'd explain or spell these out as you went - as other posters do.
I find them quite a good running check for dementia. BRNC I worked out from first principles, G LOC was in the right area but googled.
Starmer is, of course, not pro-Brexit. Nor is he a liar. He is simply a realist. His stance is down to the simple fact that Brexit (for good or evil) has happened.
Does anybody seriously think that now would be a good time for Labour to advocate re-opening all the horrendous Brexit wounds of the last six years or so? It wouldn't just be electorally suicidal, it would be damaging to the fabric of the nation. Starmer has the sense to recognise this, that's all.
The key bit of Starmer's argument is that banging on about Brexit right now is horribly divisive. Better to make the best of it. The unsaid part bring that will be by dilution.
What happens in the event that the debate stops being divisive (and that might never happen, and probably will take another decade or two)... That's another question. Probably a question for Starmer's successor and a Conservative leader who might not even be an MP yet.
The EU took a long time to reach a political position on Ukraine and, when it emerged, it was clearly influenced by embarrassment at the UK and US taking the lead on things like supplying arms, cutting tariffs and strong unambiguous statements of political support. That's different to the Baltic States and Poland looking to their own defences and screaming blue murder at the EU to do more, which they still haven't fully stepped up to do.
None of that has anything to do with British membership of the EU.
The UK could have done exactly what they did for Ukraine while being an EU member and other EU members have done more.
So tout the British aid to Ukraine as some sort of specious Brexit benefit doesn't really stack up.
I don't think you know how the CFSP works nor how the EU setting tarrifs works.
Come back when you've done a bit more research.
So what did the UK do that would have been impossible inside the EU?
Come back when you've learnt how to spell tariff.
I've always quite you're quite bright, if a little disturbed.
Maybe you're actually secretly a bit thick and desperate that no-one sees it.
When they tested us at BRNC I was exactly on on the median IQ though I can't imagine that the multiple motorcycle accidents, fistfights and at least two episodes of G-LOC have made me any cleverer.
In simulators or when actually driving?
Once in the centrifuge at Farnborough, it took them 12 minutes to revive me. Lol. Once in a Hawk when my 'speed jeans' had become disconnected and I went from -1 to +8g in 2 seconds while getting beaten up by a Lakenheath F-15. I don't think I was out for long that time as the hysterical screaming of the army major I had in the back seat yanked me back to consciousness in short order.
One of the most compelling opportunities to lance the boil, which hasn’t been pursued for multiple political reasons (except in Northern Ireland) would be regional or city level single market membership. One country two systems.
Say for example Brighton elects for special status. Or Oxford, Liverpool or wherever (London might be too divisive for the rest of the country). People who want to live and operate within the EU and with EU free movement rights can do so. People who don’t, stay out. We know it works in principle through the combination of the GFA and NIP in Northern Ireland (and in Gibraltar and elsewhere).
We also have live examples of differing trade rules in specific locations through Rishi’s Freeports.
If these EU Hong Kongs succeed they provide a useful pilot for the rest of the country, if they fail then they’ll quickly lose popularity.
What you're describing would be many times more complicated that the NI protocol and the EU wouldn't be remotely interested in it.
But I can dream.
It would involve extra red tape but that would be one to weigh up versus the potential benefits. We looked into it shortly after the Brexit vote when we were brainstorming potential constitutional settlements. The main extra bureaucracy for business would fall on HMRC but would be no greater than that required by Truss’s investment zones or the Freeports. The main thing for individuals would be the need for residence permits or a stamp on the passport akin to a visa. Like HK.
These Brexit debates are tedious. It's crystal clear from the polling where the British public are - Rejoin the EU but without any EU rules or budget contributions. Perhaps the polidical clarse could stop talking to themselves in their globalist SW1 bubble, pull their finger out and try and deliver that.
Some of the interest in buying vegan "meat" is the misguided thought that a) it is healthier and b) better for the environment.
On the first, that is not the case, the huge levels of salt is required to make that fake meat edible. You have traded an item with fat (too much not good), with one that has levels of salt associated with long term health conditions.
On b) even that isn't a given, because it depends on certain niche ingredients that only grow in certain areas of the world, and led to further deforestation, plus airmiles. Then, all the processing of these ingredients requires a huge amount of energy to turn it into something that has the look of meat.
I’m reading Douglas Murray’s “The strange death of Europe”
It’s not for the faint hearted or Woke. It is also rather good, and a devastating analysis of the migrant crisis of the 2010s
Which makes it relevant to this debate. I am pretty sure we will soon be looking at another, even bigger migrant crisis. Something that will dwarf the last. Climate change isn’t going away, Africa and the MENA are still in bad shape, in the main
The EU will be flooded with unwanted migrants. At that point Schengen, Free Movement and the EU as a whole might look like really bad news, and Brexit might seem an inspired choice
Events, dear boy. Events
Non-EU immigration is up. That's non-EU and not via the EU and exploiting FOM.
Presumably all those Brexiteers who said EU FOM was racist and exclusionary will be welcoming these non EU migrants with open arms.
My local big sainsburys in Camden is a fascinating barometer of London’s demographic change
There used to be one small corner devoted to foreign foods, plus a World Foods section with mirin and laksa paste
Now about 10% of the store (and growing) is dedicated to Asian, Halal, East European, Brazilian, Indian, plus a bit of Irish and North American. They have things I’ve never seen before - which is fun
This has happened in the last year
Same in Sainsbury's here (although perhaps in part due to the way they've arranged the shelves recently; a lot of the foods were already there). Similarly a lot of space is now taken up by plant-based "meat and milk" products.
My sense is that's gone off the boil in the last year or two.
Peak vegansignalling was c. 2019.
Perhaps overshadowed by the pandemic, but there is now a wider range and generally higher quality of plant-based food in the shops and even in takeaways. Obviously, it is still a minority taste but at the same time, it's gone mainstream. And it is no longer all about vegans, some people just prefer the taste.
ETA just before Covid hit, the fake sausage rolls were outselling the real ones in our corporate canteen because they tasted better.
These Brexit debates are tedious. It's crystal clear from the polling where the British public are - Rejoin the EU but without any EU rules or budget contributions. Perhaps the polidical clarse could stop talking to themselves in their globalist SW1 bubble, pull their finger out and try and deliver that.
Or at the very least pretend they can. Just can't get the skilful lying bastards nowadays.
I’m reading Douglas Murray’s “The strange death of Europe”
It’s not for the faint hearted or Woke. It is also rather good, and a devastating analysis of the migrant crisis of the 2010s
Which makes it relevant to this debate. I am pretty sure we will soon be looking at another, even bigger migrant crisis. Something that will dwarf the last. Climate change isn’t going away, Africa and the MENA are still in bad shape, in the main
The EU will be flooded with unwanted migrants. At that point Schengen, Free Movement and the EU as a whole might look like really bad news, and Brexit might seem an inspired choice
Events, dear boy. Events
Non-EU immigration is up. That's non-EU and not via the EU and exploiting FOM.
Presumably all those Brexiteers who said EU FOM was racist and exclusionary will be welcoming these non EU migrants with open arms.
My local big sainsburys in Camden is a fascinating barometer of London’s demographic change
There used to be one small corner devoted to foreign foods, plus a World Foods section with mirin and laksa paste
Now about 10% of the store (and growing) is dedicated to Asian, Halal, East European, Brazilian, Indian, plus a bit of Irish and North American. They have things I’ve never seen before - which is fun
This has happened in the last year
Same in Sainsbury's here (although perhaps in part due to the way they've arranged the shelves recently; a lot of the foods were already there). Similarly a lot of space is now taken up by plant-based "meat and milk" products.
Otherwise known as the junk food aisle ;-)
Cows are now running adverts extolling "beef and dairy".
Now. Anchor butter had singing cows ‘we are lucky cows, we chew the cud and browse’ a few decades ago.
These Brexit debates are tedious. It's crystal clear from the polling where the British public are - Rejoin the EU but without any EU rules or budget contributions. Perhaps the polidical clarse could stop talking to themselves in their globalist SW1 bubble, pull their finger out and try and deliver that.
Delivering a fantasy is not easy, but it's never stopped them promising it before, so why not?
One of the most compelling opportunities to lance the boil, which hasn’t been pursued for multiple political reasons (except in Northern Ireland) would be regional or city level single market membership. One country two systems.
Say for example Brighton elects for special status. Or Oxford, Liverpool or wherever (London might be too divisive for the rest of the country). People who want to live and operate within the EU and with EU free movement rights can do so. People who don’t, stay out. We know it works in principle through the combination of the GFA and NIP in Northern Ireland (and in Gibraltar and elsewhere).
We also have live examples of differing trade rules in specific locations through Rishi’s Freeports.
If these EU Hong Kongs succeed they provide a useful pilot for the rest of the country, if they fail then they’ll quickly lose popularity.
What you're describing would be many times more complicated that the NI protocol and the EU wouldn't be remotely interested in it.
But I can dream.
It would involve extra red tape but that would be one to weigh up versus the potential benefits. We looked into it shortly after the Brexit vote when we were brainstorming potential constitutional settlements. The main extra bureaucracy for business would fall on HMRC but would be no greater than that required by Truss’s investment zones or the Freeports. The main thing for individuals would be the need for residence permits or a stamp on the passport akin to a visa. Like HK.
But you're brainstorming in a vacuum. The EU wouldn't accept any kind of border regime that would be implementable around, say, Brighton, and it wouldn't be feasible to have two classes of UK citizenship.
The idea that currency is about what cash and notes look like rather than who makes the political decisions about fiscal and monetary matters, who is your banker of last resort, who might you bale out - ie which powers are in charge of large bits of your life - is risible.
There is a case for the Euro, but 'the cashless society' is not it.
Exactly.
One thing to consider by those who advocate more government spending, is that the fiscal rules of the Euro tend to block this. So a Labour chancellor would have to consider joining the Euro as reducing his/her freedom of action in fiscal policy.
Hence Gordon Brown and his “tests”
The problem with the Euro really comes down to this - interest rates in the Euro area are set for the convenience of the German economy (largely). If the DM still existed, it would have soared into space by now, disadvantaging German exports.
German politicians have told the German people that their success is all down to their hard work and sacrifices- especially pay resteraunt. To an extent that is true. However the Euro has created a situation where the effective exchange rate for selling into much of Europe is tremendously favourable.
So many in Germany see “Southern Europe” as lazy, feckless etc. while those in Southern Europe see the financial system of Europe being run against their interest.
Fiscal transfers are the standard method of dealing with such issues. The rich areas in a financial union need to subsidise the poor areas. IIRC the Economist calculated, some years back, that the fiscal transfers in the Euro zone were half what the classic calculations suggested they should be.
EDIT : exchange rates matter even less in the age of companies such as Revolut, which offer automatic exchange on cashless transactions, at tiny fraction of the market strike. I once paid a hotel bill for 5 people for 2 weeks in a rather nice hotel in Thailand. I worked out that Revolut might have made £10 on the transaction….
One of the most compelling opportunities to lance the boil, which hasn’t been pursued for multiple political reasons (except in Northern Ireland) would be regional or city level single market membership. One country two systems.
Say for example Brighton elects for special status. Or Oxford, Liverpool or wherever (London might be too divisive for the rest of the country). People who want to live and operate within the EU and with EU free movement rights can do so. People who don’t, stay out. We know it works in principle through the combination of the GFA and NIP in Northern Ireland (and in Gibraltar and elsewhere).
We also have live examples of differing trade rules in specific locations through Rishi’s Freeports.
If these EU Hong Kongs succeed they provide a useful pilot for the rest of the country, if they fail then they’ll quickly lose popularity.
What you're describing would be many times more complicated that the NI protocol and the EU wouldn't be remotely interested in it.
But I can dream.
It would involve extra red tape but that would be one to weigh up versus the potential benefits. We looked into it shortly after the Brexit vote when we were brainstorming potential constitutional settlements. The main extra bureaucracy for business would fall on HMRC but would be no greater than that required by Truss’s investment zones or the Freeports. The main thing for individuals would be the need for residence permits or a stamp on the passport akin to a visa. Like HK.
But you're brainstorming in a vacuum. The EU wouldn't accept any kind of border regime that would be implementable around, say, Brighton, and it wouldn't be feasible to have two classes of UK citizenship.
We’ll need to organise something similar if Scotland gets independence and joins the EU, so we can use that as a starting point.
And we have two classes of citizenship already, in Northern Ireland.
The polling shows what we've always known - the UK wants a "special" category of membership with the ability to opt out of anything it doesn't like yet to still have a full and equal voice in all other matters. As an aside, we also want to define the notion of the Single Market so it suits us so freedom of capital yes but freedom of labour in terms of free movement of people and workers, no.
That's fine - there's no problem emphasising what we perceive to be in our national interest - but the EU has to decide the extent to which it is prepared to accommodate our bespoke requirements, or not. Any initial negotiation stats from that - we put up the kind of membership we would like and it's up to the EU to decide whether they want to adhere strictly to their own rules or recognise we are, for all our eccentricities, a large and valuable trading and economic partner.
As others have already said, however, membership or otherwise of the EU is peripheral to the deeper socio-economic problems such as the NHS and the fundamental relationships within the economy.
I've just completed my second marathon of 2023: 5hrs 30 minutes, a full 45 minutes faster than last week's effort.
I'm feeling a lot better than last week as well. The weather was a bit worse as well, particularly towards the end, as it felt slightly cooler with a biting strong wind and intermittent drizzle.
Still, two down, fifty to go. I'm starting to think I might be able to do this...
One of the most compelling opportunities to lance the boil, which hasn’t been pursued for multiple political reasons (except in Northern Ireland) would be regional or city level single market membership. One country two systems.
Say for example Brighton elects for special status. Or Oxford, Liverpool or wherever (London might be too divisive for the rest of the country). People who want to live and operate within the EU and with EU free movement rights can do so. People who don’t, stay out. We know it works in principle through the combination of the GFA and NIP in Northern Ireland (and in Gibraltar and elsewhere).
We also have live examples of differing trade rules in specific locations through Rishi’s Freeports.
If these EU Hong Kongs succeed they provide a useful pilot for the rest of the country, if they fail then they’ll quickly lose popularity.
What you're describing would be many times more complicated that the NI protocol and the EU wouldn't be remotely interested in it.
But I can dream.
It would involve extra red tape but that would be one to weigh up versus the potential benefits. We looked into it shortly after the Brexit vote when we were brainstorming potential constitutional settlements. The main extra bureaucracy for business would fall on HMRC but would be no greater than that required by Truss’s investment zones or the Freeports. The main thing for individuals would be the need for residence permits or a stamp on the passport akin to a visa. Like HK.
But you're brainstorming in a vacuum. The EU wouldn't accept any kind of border regime that would be implementable around, say, Brighton, and it wouldn't be feasible to have two classes of UK citizenship.
We’ll need to organise something similar if Scotland gets independence and joins the EU, so we can use that as a starting point.
No, if that happens, then Scotland will become a sovereign state so it's not comparable.
Starmer is, of course, not pro-Brexit. Nor is he a liar. He is simply a realist. His stance is down to the simple fact that Brexit (for good or evil) has happened.
Does anybody seriously think that now would be a good time for Labour to advocate re-opening all the horrendous Brexit wounds of the last six years or so? It wouldn't just be electorally suicidal, it would be damaging to the fabric of the nation. Starmer has the sense to recognise this, that's all.
The key bit of Starmer's argument is that banging on about Brexit right now is horribly divisive. Better to make the best of it. The unsaid part bring that will be by dilution.
What happens in the event that the debate stops being divisive (and that might never happen, and probably will take another decade or two)... That's another question. Probably a question for Starmer's successor and a Conservative leader who might not even be an MP yet.
Why would the debate ever stop? The damage is permanent and so will the debate be.
There isn't a snowball in hell's chance of us rejoining though. Why would they let us? How could we accept worse terms than those we gave up?
What we might achieve, if we are wise and fortunate enough, if a newly constructed and positive relationship with the EU. Of course we'd need some wise and fortunate politicians to achieve that. Voters can do their bit here by indicating their displeasure with those incumbent MPs who helped to lead us into this sorry position.
The EU took a long time to reach a political position on Ukraine and, when it emerged, it was clearly influenced by embarrassment at the UK and US taking the lead on things like supplying arms, cutting tariffs and strong unambiguous statements of political support. That's different to the Baltic States and Poland looking to their own defences and screaming blue murder at the EU to do more, which they still haven't fully stepped up to do.
None of that has anything to do with British membership of the EU.
The UK could have done exactly what they did for Ukraine while being an EU member and other EU members have done more.
So tout the British aid to Ukraine as some sort of specious Brexit benefit doesn't really stack up.
I don't think you know how the CFSP works nor how the EU setting tarrifs works.
Come back when you've done a bit more research.
So what did the UK do that would have been impossible inside the EU?
Come back when you've learnt how to spell tariff.
I've always quite you're quite bright, if a little disturbed.
Maybe you're actually secretly a bit thick and desperate that no-one sees it.
When they tested us at BRNC I was exactly on on the median IQ though I can't imagine that the multiple motorcycle accidents, fistfights and at least two episodes of G-LOC have made me any cleverer.
In simulators or when actually driving?
Once in the centrifuge at Farnborough, it took them 12 minutes to revive me. Lol. Once in a Hawk when my 'speed jeans' had become disconnected and I went from -1 to +8g in 2 seconds while getting beaten up by a Lakenheath F-15. I don't think I was out for long that time as the hysterical screaming of the army major I had in the back seat yanked me back to consciousness in short order.
In fairness it must be slightly disappointing when your pilot passes out in a 2 seater.
Taken me 7 years to realise this, but the least worst brexit argument was pressure on jobs/wages and pressure on housing, whereas the brexitest age group is the one most insulated from all that, by reason of living high on the hog on triple locked pensions, either in paid for homes or OP housing for which immygrunts aren't competing.
I've just completed my second marathon of 2023: 5hrs 30 minutes, a full 45 minutes faster than last week's effort.
I'm feeling a lot better than last week as well. The weather was a bit worse as well, particularly towards the end, as it felt slightly cooler with a biting strong wind and intermittent drizzle.
Still, two down, fifty to go. I'm starting to think I might be able to do this...
Once the strikes are over, you will be able to get the bus.
One of the most compelling opportunities to lance the boil, which hasn’t been pursued for multiple political reasons (except in Northern Ireland) would be regional or city level single market membership. One country two systems.
Say for example Brighton elects for special status. Or Oxford, Liverpool or wherever (London might be too divisive for the rest of the country). People who want to live and operate within the EU and with EU free movement rights can do so. People who don’t, stay out. We know it works in principle through the combination of the GFA and NIP in Northern Ireland (and in Gibraltar and elsewhere).
We also have live examples of differing trade rules in specific locations through Rishi’s Freeports.
If these EU Hong Kongs succeed they provide a useful pilot for the rest of the country, if they fail then they’ll quickly lose popularity.
What you're describing would be many times more complicated that the NI protocol and the EU wouldn't be remotely interested in it.
But I can dream.
It would involve extra red tape but that would be one to weigh up versus the potential benefits. We looked into it shortly after the Brexit vote when we were brainstorming potential constitutional settlements. The main extra bureaucracy for business would fall on HMRC but would be no greater than that required by Truss’s investment zones or the Freeports. The main thing for individuals would be the need for residence permits or a stamp on the passport akin to a visa. Like HK.
But you're brainstorming in a vacuum. The EU wouldn't accept any kind of border regime that would be implementable around, say, Brighton, and it wouldn't be feasible to have two classes of UK citizenship.
We’ll need to organise something similar if Scotland gets independence and joins the EU, so we can use that as a starting point.
And we have two classes of citizenship already, in Northern Ireland.
If Scotland got independence we would be too busy building the customs posts and hard border from Berwick to Cumbria.
Though of course post SC judgement neither Sunak nor even Starmer will be granting indyref2 anytime soon
I've just completed my second marathon of 2023: 5hrs 30 minutes, a full 45 minutes faster than last week's effort.
I'm feeling a lot better than last week as well. The weather was a bit worse as well, particularly towards the end, as it felt slightly cooler with a biting strong wind and intermittent drizzle.
Still, two down, fifty to go. I'm starting to think I might be able to do this...
It's curious - I don't often talk politics with those around me. I have my views and as on here I'm generally in a minority of one on most things.
The normally apolitical Mrs Stodge has got hugely worked up about Harry (or Henry) and Meghan. I can't get past the fact everyone now seems to despise him (note: except those in a minority of one) and everyone wants him to shut up yet they devour the salacious nonsense that's plastered all over the front pages of the newspapers.
Harry seems to have taken the oxygen of publicity and fanned it into a forest fire of vitriol. It's the kind of vilification usually reserved for the French, Germans, unsuccessful English sporting teams and leaders of the Labour Party.
The issue with rejoin is the Euro which although the UK could kick down the road will become the centre of the stay out campaign .
Also you’ll find many Remainers aren’t that keen on the Euro .
If the Treaties were changed to make it clear any joining country doesn’t have to have joining the Euro as an end point then I think rejoin could win .
Regardless I do think that any new ref would need a very strong majority and that is really only likely for the next generation .
Wes gave an excellent answer to the private healthcare question I thought.
"It's a free country, people can make that choice [between private and public healthcare] but I want to make sure that people - whether they can afford it or not - have access to great, free healthcare at the point of need."
This is an entirely different kind of Labour Party from one we have seen for over a decade. This is the right way to tackle these questions. Go Wes!
These Brexit debates are tedious. It's crystal clear from the polling where the British public are - Rejoin the EU but without any EU rules or budget contributions. Perhaps the polidical clarse could stop talking to themselves in their globalist SW1 bubble, pull their finger out and try and deliver that.
The Tories would love Labour to get behind it, because they'd be able to call Keir Starmer a remainer and a fantasist.
It is to his credit that he has not fallen into this very obvious trap.
Wes gave an excellent answer to the private healthcare question I thought.
"It's a free country, people can make that choice [between private and public healthcare] but I want to make sure that people - whether they can afford it or not - have access to great, free healthcare at the point of need."
This is an entirely different kind of Labour Party from one we have seen for over a decade. This is the right way to tackle these questions. Go Wes!
But the country is not quite so free when people choose to spend their hard earned on education for their kids, is it?
I've just completed my second marathon of 2023: 5hrs 30 minutes, a full 45 minutes faster than last week's effort.
I'm feeling a lot better than last week as well. The weather was a bit worse as well, particularly towards the end, as it felt slightly cooler with a biting strong wind and intermittent drizzle.
Still, two down, fifty to go. I'm starting to think I might be able to do this...
Are you attempting to run one marathon a week? If so, why? Very possible you’ll have no knees left by the end of the year, and there is no going back from there.
There are better, more enjoyable, and less physically corrosive challenges to set oneself.
Wes gave an excellent answer to the private healthcare question I thought.
"It's a free country, people can make that choice [between private and public healthcare] but I want to make sure that people - whether they can afford it or not - have access to great, free healthcare at the point of need."
This is an entirely different kind of Labour Party from one we have seen for over a decade. This is the right way to tackle these questions. Go Wes!
But the country is not quite so free when people choose to spend their hard earned on education for their kids, is it?
You can still do that under Labour, you just don't get a tax rebate.
One of the most compelling opportunities to lance the boil, which hasn’t been pursued for multiple political reasons (except in Northern Ireland) would be regional or city level single market membership. One country two systems.
Say for example Brighton elects for special status. Or Oxford, Liverpool or wherever (London might be too divisive for the rest of the country). People who want to live and operate within the EU and with EU free movement rights can do so. People who don’t, stay out. We know it works in principle through the combination of the GFA and NIP in Northern Ireland (and in Gibraltar and elsewhere).
We also have live examples of differing trade rules in specific locations through Rishi’s Freeports.
If these EU Hong Kongs succeed they provide a useful pilot for the rest of the country, if they fail then they’ll quickly lose popularity.
What you're describing would be many times more complicated that the NI protocol and the EU wouldn't be remotely interested in it.
But I can dream.
It would involve extra red tape but that would be one to weigh up versus the potential benefits. We looked into it shortly after the Brexit vote when we were brainstorming potential constitutional settlements. The main extra bureaucracy for business would fall on HMRC but would be no greater than that required by Truss’s investment zones or the Freeports. The main thing for individuals would be the need for residence permits or a stamp on the passport akin to a visa. Like HK.
But you're brainstorming in a vacuum. The EU wouldn't accept any kind of border regime that would be implementable around, say, Brighton, and it wouldn't be feasible to have two classes of UK citizenship.
We’ll need to organise something similar if Scotland gets independence and joins the EU, so we can use that as a starting point.
And we have two classes of citizenship already, in Northern Ireland.
If Scotland got independence we would be too busy building the customs posts and hard border from Berwick to Cumbria.
Though of course post SC judgement neither Sunak nor even Starmer will be granting indyref2 anytime soon
'Professor Pavlov, the subject has responded entirely as expected'
Why do care workers get paid so little? Is it lack of demand for these jobs?
I can’t help but think train drivers would be on minimum wage if it weren’t for unions. Although then again pilots get paid well and they’re not going on strike.
I've just completed my second marathon of 2023: 5hrs 30 minutes, a full 45 minutes faster than last week's effort.
I'm feeling a lot better than last week as well. The weather was a bit worse as well, particularly towards the end, as it felt slightly cooler with a biting strong wind and intermittent drizzle.
Still, two down, fifty to go. I'm starting to think I might be able to do this...
Never mind that. Heat is the runner's enemy.
Indeed. I hate getting too hot. Fortunately I don't mind getting up early (I started today's run before seven), and I can see myself starting at four or five in the morning during summer. Also, by that time I should have a couple of dozen under my belt (hopefully...) and be a bit more match fit.
Wes gave an excellent answer to the private healthcare question I thought.
"It's a free country, people can make that choice [between private and public healthcare] but I want to make sure that people - whether they can afford it or not - have access to great, free healthcare at the point of need."
This is an entirely different kind of Labour Party from one we have seen for over a decade. This is the right way to tackle these questions. Go Wes!
But the country is not quite so free when people choose to spend their hard earned on education for their kids, is it?
You can still do that under Labour, you just don't get a tax rebate.
Starmer is, of course, not pro-Brexit. Nor is he a liar. He is simply a realist. His stance is down to the simple fact that Brexit (for good or evil) has happened.
Does anybody seriously think that now would be a good time for Labour to advocate re-opening all the horrendous Brexit wounds of the last six years or so? It wouldn't just be electorally suicidal, it would be damaging to the fabric of the nation. Starmer has the sense to recognise this, that's all.
The key bit of Starmer's argument is that banging on about Brexit right now is horribly divisive. Better to make the best of it. The unsaid part bring that will be by dilution.
What happens in the event that the debate stops being divisive (and that might never happen, and probably will take another decade or two)... That's another question. Probably a question for Starmer's successor and a Conservative leader who might not even be an MP yet.
Why would the debate ever stop? The damage is permanent and so will the debate be.
There isn't a snowball in hell's chance of us rejoining though. Why would they let us? How could we accept worse terms than those we gave up?
What we might achieve, if we are wise and fortunate enough, if a newly constructed and positive relationship with the EU. Of course we'd need some wise and fortunate politicians to achieve that. Voters can do their bit here by indicating their displeasure with those incumbent MPs who helped to lead us into this sorry position.
It's not a lot, but at least it's something.
It won't ever end, no, because debates over our role in Europe have been going on centuries. And they would be if we'd stayed in too. It's a feature not a bug.
It would be nice if we didn't talk about it every day, though. Pb.com is endlessly fascinating and insightful on all sorts of other subjects when we allow ourselves to be.
Wes gave an excellent answer to the private healthcare question I thought.
"It's a free country, people can make that choice [between private and public healthcare] but I want to make sure that people - whether they can afford it or not - have access to great, free healthcare at the point of need."
This is an entirely different kind of Labour Party from one we have seen for over a decade. This is the right way to tackle these questions. Go Wes!
But the country is not quite so free when people choose to spend their hard earned on education for their kids, is it?
You can still do that under Labour, you just don't get a tax rebate.
Perfectly consistent.
I could claim a tax rebate? News to me.
You know what I mean, you won't get VAT exempt any more.
Wes gave an excellent answer to the private healthcare question I thought.
"It's a free country, people can make that choice [between private and public healthcare] but I want to make sure that people - whether they can afford it or not - have access to great, free healthcare at the point of need."
This is an entirely different kind of Labour Party from one we have seen for over a decade. This is the right way to tackle these questions. Go Wes!
But the country is not quite so free when people choose to spend their hard earned on education for their kids, is it?
I don't think that Labour plan to abolish private education, just remove some of its tax breaks.
Why do care workers get paid so little? Is it lack of demand for these jobs?
I can’t help but think train drivers would be on minimum wage if it weren’t for unions. Although then again pilots get paid well and they’re not going on strike.
Somebody please educate me
There is no way to answer this question without offending the common-sense morality that says low-skilled medical carers are the most important people in the world. But care workers are often substituting for the work done in previous generations by families, whereas planes and trains don't go without the approval of the principal in charge.
I've just completed my second marathon of 2023: 5hrs 30 minutes, a full 45 minutes faster than last week's effort.
I'm feeling a lot better than last week as well. The weather was a bit worse as well, particularly towards the end, as it felt slightly cooler with a biting strong wind and intermittent drizzle.
Still, two down, fifty to go. I'm starting to think I might be able to do this...
Are you attempting to run one marathon a week? If so, why? Very possible you’ll have no knees left by the end of the year, and there is no going back from there.
There are better, more enjoyable, and less physically corrosive challenges to set oneself.
52 in a year (I might get a few weeks where I cannot run, and some where I can do more than one in a week).
Why do it? It's a challenge. In 2021 I ran every day, averaging over 7 miles a day. Twenty years ago I spent a year walking 6,200 miles around the coast. Yes, there might be physical issues, but thirty years ago I could often not walk at all, so at worst I'll only be back to that state.
And I actually enjoy the challenge. True, parts of the run can be quite miserable (the last hill on Broadway out of Bourn past the Roman burial barrows is a b*tch), but generally I enjoy it.
Why do care workers get paid so little? Is it lack of demand for these jobs?
I can’t help but think train drivers would be on minimum wage if it weren’t for unions. Although then again pilots get paid well and they’re not going on strike.
Somebody please educate me
There is no way to answer this question without offending the common-sense morality that says low-skilled medical carers are the most important people in the world. But care workers are often substituting for the work done in previous generations by families, whereas planes and trains don't go without the approval of the principal in charge.
What about nurses then?
In the US doctors get paid a shit tonne, is this because it's all privatised?
Why do care workers get paid so little? Is it lack of demand for these jobs?
I can’t help but think train drivers would be on minimum wage if it weren’t for unions. Although then again pilots get paid well and they’re not going on strike.
Somebody please educate me
There is no way to answer this question without offending the common-sense morality that says low-skilled medical carers are the most important people in the world. But care workers are often substituting for the work done in previous generations by families, whereas planes and trains don't go without the approval of the principal in charge.
What about nurses then?
In the US doctors get paid a shit tonne, is this because it's all privatised?
Nurses are somewhat in the same position. We professionalise nursing, but ultimately it's not a role with much executive decision-making like a consultant has. Yanks spend far more per person, and a lot of doctors' pay goes on student debt and malpractice lawyers.
The need to welcome their new friends and neighbours.
Ireland is going through a huge demographic change in the next 15 years. They need to embrace it.
It’s an ugly protest. However, perhaps some Irish people don’t want Ireland to become like Sweden, which is plunging into violence, due almost completely to mass immigration
(64) - Dec 31 - Three people were shot in a driveby outside McDonald’s in Vällingby, NW Stockholm. One of the victims, a 20-year old man, later died. Attackers set of fireworks during the shooting to confuse
62) - Dec 25 - A 27-year old Death Patrol gang member and convicted rapist (Mehdi ”Dumle” Sachit) was shot dead early in the morning near his mother’s apartment in Rinkeby, W. Stockholm
(51) - Oct 6 - A 19-year old man was shot dead and a 16-yr old boy was injured in a driveby shooting with automatic gunfire in Saltskog, Södertälje. Four suspects on two mopeds seen escaping
The idea that currency is about what cash and notes look like rather than who makes the political decisions about fiscal and monetary matters, who is your banker of last resort, who might you bale out - ie which powers are in charge of large bits of your life - is risible.
There is a case for the Euro, but 'the cashless society' is not it.
Exactly.
One thing to consider by those who advocate more government spending, is that the fiscal rules of the Euro tend to block this. So a Labour chancellor would have to consider joining the Euro as reducing his/her freedom of action in fiscal policy.
Hence Gordon Brown and his “tests”
The problem with the Euro really comes down to this - interest rates in the Euro area are set for the convenience of the German economy (largely). If the DM still existed, it would have soared into space by now, disadvantaging German exports.
German politicians have told the German people that their success is all down to their hard work and sacrifices- especially pay resteraunt. To an extent that is true. However the Euro has created a situation where the effective exchange rate for selling into much of Europe is tremendously favourable.
So many in Germany see “Southern Europe” as lazy, feckless etc. while those in Southern Europe see the financial system of Europe being run against their interest.
Fiscal transfers are the standard method of dealing with such issues. The rich areas in a financial union need to subsidise the poor areas. IIRC the Economist calculated, some years back, that the fiscal transfers in the Euro zone were half what the classic calculations suggested they should be.
EDIT : exchange rates matter even less in the age of companies such as Revolut, which offer automatic exchange on cashless transactions, at tiny fraction of the market strike. I once paid a hotel bill for 5 people for 2 weeks in a rather nice hotel in Thailand. I worked out that Revolut might have made £10 on the transaction….
The economic arguments against joining the euro are very well rehearsed.
Why do care workers get paid so little? Is it lack of demand for these jobs?
I can’t help but think train drivers would be on minimum wage if it weren’t for unions. Although then again pilots get paid well and they’re not going on strike.
Somebody please educate me
There is no way to answer this question without offending the common-sense morality that says low-skilled medical carers are the most important people in the world. But care workers are often substituting for the work done in previous generations by families, whereas planes and trains don't go without the approval of the principal in charge.
What about nurses then?
In the US doctors get paid a shit tonne, is this because it's all privatised?
Nurses are somewhat in the same position. We professionalise nursing, but ultimately it's not a role with much executive decision-making like a consultant has. Yanks spend far more per person, and a lot of doctors' pay goes on student debt and malpractice lawyers.
Train drivers don't have a lot of decision making either? Unions?
Wes gave an excellent answer to the private healthcare question I thought.
"It's a free country, people can make that choice [between private and public healthcare] but I want to make sure that people - whether they can afford it or not - have access to great, free healthcare at the point of need."
This is an entirely different kind of Labour Party from one we have seen for over a decade. This is the right way to tackle these questions. Go Wes!
But the country is not quite so free when people choose to spend their hard earned on education for their kids, is it?
I don't think that Labour plan to abolish private education, just remove some of its tax breaks.
Private education doesn't have "tax breaks" - education is an innately charitable activity.
No independent school makes a profit - either for its investors, owners or staff. All are recycled into furthering the effective education of children. Furthermore, it is not the case the state subsidises the private - the truth is the precise opposite as those that pay fees forfeit their place in the state system, whilst still paying all the tax for it. Private schools actually subsidise the state.
This is why this status quo has lasted for decades, throughout all sorts of government changes.
There are some lies entering common parlance here (which, to be fair, is testament to the effectiveness of Labour's contemporary spin operation) but they must be challenged in the interests of good policy.
Why do care workers get paid so little? Is it lack of demand for these jobs?
I can’t help but think train drivers would be on minimum wage if it weren’t for unions. Although then again pilots get paid well and they’re not going on strike.
Somebody please educate me
There is no way to answer this question without offending the common-sense morality that says low-skilled medical carers are the most important people in the world. But care workers are often substituting for the work done in previous generations by families, whereas planes and trains don't go without the approval of the principal in charge.
What about nurses then?
In the US doctors get paid a shit tonne, is this because it's all privatised?
Nurses are somewhat in the same position. We professionalise nursing, but ultimately it's not a role with much executive decision-making like a consultant has. Yanks spend far more per person, and a lot of doctors' pay goes on student debt and malpractice lawyers.
Train drivers don't have a lot of decision making either? Unions?
No train driver, no journeys that day. No nurses, the care happens on a different day. Is my best guess. It's easier to substitute the valuable labour activity from one day to another in hospitals, but the foregone flight is lost forever, as happened during the Covids. So a persistent and complete withdrawal of medical services might make nurses as strong as drivers - but would probably sacrifice public opinion.
From being a notably peaceful country, 20 years ago, Sweden now has more rapes than any other European country, and it is nearing the top of the table for bombings and shootings
“From Europe's lowest crime rates to being the region's homicide capital - we look at the deterioration of Sweden's security landscape and what the government and law enforcement is doing to tackle the issue: hubs.ly/Q01wC7Zk0”
Wes gave an excellent answer to the private healthcare question I thought.
"It's a free country, people can make that choice [between private and public healthcare] but I want to make sure that people - whether they can afford it or not - have access to great, free healthcare at the point of need."
This is an entirely different kind of Labour Party from one we have seen for over a decade. This is the right way to tackle these questions. Go Wes!
But the country is not quite so free when people choose to spend their hard earned on education for their kids, is it?
I don't think that Labour plan to abolish private education, just remove some of its tax breaks.
So, when I was paying £10k a year for education for a child, on which I had paid £4,200 of IT and in respect of which I had been an unpaid tax collector of £2k of tax in the form of VAT, to save my local authority the £5k of costs they would otherwise have incurred in teaching my child I was benefitting from tax breaks? Every day is a learning day on PB, right enough.
Starmer is, of course, not pro-Brexit. Nor is he a liar. He is simply a realist. His stance is down to the simple fact that Brexit (for good or evil) has happened.
Does anybody seriously think that now would be a good time for Labour to advocate re-opening all the horrendous Brexit wounds of the last six years or so? It wouldn't just be electorally suicidal, it would be damaging to the fabric of the nation. Starmer has the sense to recognise this, that's all.
The key bit of Starmer's argument is that banging on about Brexit right now is horribly divisive. Better to make the best of it. The unsaid part bring that will be by dilution.
What happens in the event that the debate stops being divisive (and that might never happen, and probably will take another decade or two)... That's another question. Probably a question for Starmer's successor and a Conservative leader who might not even be an MP yet.
Why would the debate ever stop? The damage is permanent and so will the debate be.
There isn't a snowball in hell's chance of us rejoining though. Why would they let us? How could we accept worse terms than those we gave up?
What we might achieve, if we are wise and fortunate enough, if a newly constructed and positive relationship with the EU. Of course we'd need some wise and fortunate politicians to achieve that. Voters can do their bit here by indicating their displeasure with those incumbent MPs who helped to lead us into this sorry position.
It's not a lot, but at least it's something.
In 10 years time both UK and the EU will be different to how they were in 2016. Different times make for different requirements. It may well be that the deal on offer is more appealing than in 2016.
It's curious - I don't often talk politics with those around me. I have my views and as on here I'm generally in a minority of one on most things.
The normally apolitical Mrs Stodge has got hugely worked up about Harry (or Henry) and Meghan. I can't get past the fact everyone now seems to despise him (note: except those in a minority of one) and everyone wants him to shut up yet they devour the salacious nonsense that's plastered all over the front pages of the newspapers.
Harry seems to have taken the oxygen of publicity and fanned it into a forest fire of vitriol. It's the kind of vilification usually reserved for the French, Germans, unsuccessful English sporting teams and leaders of the Labour Party.
The anti-H&M types are exactly equal in their obnoxiousness to the pro-H&M types, at each stage on the scale from polite interest to call-the-PREVENT-hotline.
The Gulliver’s Travels religious war between the Big Endians and Little Endians comes to mind.
Wes gave an excellent answer to the private healthcare question I thought.
"It's a free country, people can make that choice [between private and public healthcare] but I want to make sure that people - whether they can afford it or not - have access to great, free healthcare at the point of need."
This is an entirely different kind of Labour Party from one we have seen for over a decade. This is the right way to tackle these questions. Go Wes!
But the country is not quite so free when people choose to spend their hard earned on education for their kids, is it?
I don't think that Labour plan to abolish private education, just remove some of its tax breaks.
So, when I was paying £10k a year for education for a child, on which I had paid £4,200 of IT and in respect of which I had been an unpaid tax collector of £2k of tax in the form of VAT, to save my local authority the £5k of costs they would otherwise have incurred in teaching my child I was benefitting from tax breaks? Every day is a learning day on PB, right enough.
My university debt is £70,000, how much did it cost you? Are you still paying it off?
Wes gave an excellent answer to the private healthcare question I thought.
"It's a free country, people can make that choice [between private and public healthcare] but I want to make sure that people - whether they can afford it or not - have access to great, free healthcare at the point of need."
This is an entirely different kind of Labour Party from one we have seen for over a decade. This is the right way to tackle these questions. Go Wes!
But the country is not quite so free when people choose to spend their hard earned on education for their kids, is it?
I don't think that Labour plan to abolish private education, just remove some of its tax breaks.
So, when I was paying £10k a year for education for a child, on which I had paid £4,200 of IT and in respect of which I had been an unpaid tax collector of £2k of tax in the form of VAT, to save my local authority the £5k of costs they would otherwise have incurred in teaching my child I was benefitting from tax breaks? Every day is a learning day on PB, right enough.
My view, David, is that this is the fox hunting of 2024 - it's some class-war red meat to throw to Labour's base whilst Starmer does what he needs to do to win.
Why do care workers get paid so little? Is it lack of demand for these jobs?
I can’t help but think train drivers would be on minimum wage if it weren’t for unions. Although then again pilots get paid well and they’re not going on strike.
Somebody please educate me
There is no way to answer this question without offending the common-sense morality that says low-skilled medical carers are the most important people in the world. But care workers are often substituting for the work done in previous generations by families, whereas planes and trains don't go without the approval of the principal in charge.
What about nurses then?
In the US doctors get paid a shit tonne, is this because it's all privatised?
Nurses are somewhat in the same position. We professionalise nursing, but ultimately it's not a role with much executive decision-making like a consultant has. Yanks spend far more per person, and a lot of doctors' pay goes on student debt and malpractice lawyers.
Train drivers don't have a lot of decision making either? Unions?
No train driver, no journeys that day. No nurses, the care happens on a different day. Is my best guess. It's easier to substitute the valuable labour activity from one day to another in hospitals, but the foregone flight is lost forever, as happened during the Covids. So a persistent and complete withdrawal of medical services might make nurses as strong as drivers - but would probably sacrifice public opinion.
I guess my question is, if there were no unions or striking was illegal, would train drivers still be paid what they're paid now?
Wes gave an excellent answer to the private healthcare question I thought.
"It's a free country, people can make that choice [between private and public healthcare] but I want to make sure that people - whether they can afford it or not - have access to great, free healthcare at the point of need."
This is an entirely different kind of Labour Party from one we have seen for over a decade. This is the right way to tackle these questions. Go Wes!
But the country is not quite so free when people choose to spend their hard earned on education for their kids, is it?
I don't think that Labour plan to abolish private education, just remove some of its tax breaks.
So, when I was paying £10k a year for education for a child, on which I had paid £4,200 of IT and in respect of which I had been an unpaid tax collector of £2k of tax in the form of VAT, to save my local authority the £5k of costs they would otherwise have incurred in teaching my child I was benefitting from tax breaks? Every day is a learning day on PB, right enough.
My view, David, is that this is the fox hunting of 2024 - it's some class-war red meat to throw to Labour's base whilst Starmer does what he needs to do to win.
Fox hunting is disgusting. Of course it should be banned.
Wes gave an excellent answer to the private healthcare question I thought.
"It's a free country, people can make that choice [between private and public healthcare] but I want to make sure that people - whether they can afford it or not - have access to great, free healthcare at the point of need."
This is an entirely different kind of Labour Party from one we have seen for over a decade. This is the right way to tackle these questions. Go Wes!
But the country is not quite so free when people choose to spend their hard earned on education for their kids, is it?
I don't think that Labour plan to abolish private education, just remove some of its tax breaks.
Private education doesn't have "tax breaks" - education is an innately charitable activity.
No independent school makes a profit - either for its investors, owners or staff. All are recycled into furthering the effective education of children. Furthermore, it is not the case the state subsidises the private - the truth is the precise opposite as those that pay fees forfeit their place in the state system, whilst still paying all the tax for it. Private schools actually subsidise the state.
This is why this status quo has lasted for decades, throughout all sorts of government changes.
There are some lies entering common parlance here (which, to be fair, is testament to the effectiveness of Labour's contemporary spin operation) but they must be challenged in the interests of good policy.
It is interesting how people who have private medical practises don't howl about the exact same 'tax breaks' on private (non cosmetic) medical care.
Which has just got me thinking. Maybe education above the years of mandated education should have VAT applied. The howls from the poly tutors would be hilarious....
Why do care workers get paid so little? Is it lack of demand for these jobs?
I can’t help but think train drivers would be on minimum wage if it weren’t for unions. Although then again pilots get paid well and they’re not going on strike.
Somebody please educate me
Scarcity.
Pilots are most scarce followed by train drivers then care workers. Only a few of us are equipped educationally, technically and intelligence-wise to be a pilot. Many more could, in theory, be a care worker.
Wes gave an excellent answer to the private healthcare question I thought.
"It's a free country, people can make that choice [between private and public healthcare] but I want to make sure that people - whether they can afford it or not - have access to great, free healthcare at the point of need."
This is an entirely different kind of Labour Party from one we have seen for over a decade. This is the right way to tackle these questions. Go Wes!
But the country is not quite so free when people choose to spend their hard earned on education for their kids, is it?
I don't think that Labour plan to abolish private education, just remove some of its tax breaks.
So, when I was paying £10k a year for education for a child, on which I had paid £4,200 of IT and in respect of which I had been an unpaid tax collector of £2k of tax in the form of VAT, to save my local authority the £5k of costs they would otherwise have incurred in teaching my child I was benefitting from tax breaks? Every day is a learning day on PB, right enough.
My university debt is £70,000, how much did it cost you? Are you still paying it off?
Why do care workers get paid so little? Is it lack of demand for these jobs?
I can’t help but think train drivers would be on minimum wage if it weren’t for unions. Although then again pilots get paid well and they’re not going on strike.
Somebody please educate me
Scarcity.
Pilots are most scarce followed by train drivers then care workers. Only a few of us are equipped educationally, technically and intelligence-wise to be a pilot. Many more could, in theory, be a care worker.
But people often complain about how much train drivers are paid! The implication being that they're paid too much for the work they do.
I guess my question is, would they be paid what they are regardless of unions in which case the outcries about being paid too much are a misnomer, or is it that unions have ensured their pay is good over time?
Wes gave an excellent answer to the private healthcare question I thought.
"It's a free country, people can make that choice [between private and public healthcare] but I want to make sure that people - whether they can afford it or not - have access to great, free healthcare at the point of need."
This is an entirely different kind of Labour Party from one we have seen for over a decade. This is the right way to tackle these questions. Go Wes!
But the country is not quite so free when people choose to spend their hard earned on education for their kids, is it?
I don't think that Labour plan to abolish private education, just remove some of its tax breaks.
So, when I was paying £10k a year for education for a child, on which I had paid £4,200 of IT and in respect of which I had been an unpaid tax collector of £2k of tax in the form of VAT, to save my local authority the £5k of costs they would otherwise have incurred in teaching my child I was benefitting from tax breaks? Every day is a learning day on PB, right enough.
My view, David, is that this is the fox hunting of 2024 - it's some class-war red meat to throw to Labour's base whilst Starmer does what he needs to do to win.
Fox hunting is disgusting. Of course it should be banned.
I think many things are disgusting. I don't think they should be banned.
Wes gave an excellent answer to the private healthcare question I thought.
"It's a free country, people can make that choice [between private and public healthcare] but I want to make sure that people - whether they can afford it or not - have access to great, free healthcare at the point of need."
This is an entirely different kind of Labour Party from one we have seen for over a decade. This is the right way to tackle these questions. Go Wes!
But the country is not quite so free when people choose to spend their hard earned on education for their kids, is it?
I don't think that Labour plan to abolish private education, just remove some of its tax breaks.
So, when I was paying £10k a year for education for a child, on which I had paid £4,200 of IT and in respect of which I had been an unpaid tax collector of £2k of tax in the form of VAT, to save my local authority the £5k of costs they would otherwise have incurred in teaching my child I was benefitting from tax breaks? Every day is a learning day on PB, right enough.
My view, David, is that this is the fox hunting of 2024 - it's some class-war red meat to throw to Labour's base whilst Starmer does what he needs to do to win.
Fox hunting is disgusting. Of course it should be banned.
My views on it are the same as those of Tony Blair, as he listed in his autobiography.
Wes gave an excellent answer to the private healthcare question I thought.
"It's a free country, people can make that choice [between private and public healthcare] but I want to make sure that people - whether they can afford it or not - have access to great, free healthcare at the point of need."
This is an entirely different kind of Labour Party from one we have seen for over a decade. This is the right way to tackle these questions. Go Wes!
But the country is not quite so free when people choose to spend their hard earned on education for their kids, is it?
I don't think that Labour plan to abolish private education, just remove some of its tax breaks.
So, when I was paying £10k a year for education for a child, on which I had paid £4,200 of IT and in respect of which I had been an unpaid tax collector of £2k of tax in the form of VAT, to save my local authority the £5k of costs they would otherwise have incurred in teaching my child I was benefitting from tax breaks? Every day is a learning day on PB, right enough.
My university debt is £70,000, how much did it cost you? Are you still paying it off?
Wes gave an excellent answer to the private healthcare question I thought.
"It's a free country, people can make that choice [between private and public healthcare] but I want to make sure that people - whether they can afford it or not - have access to great, free healthcare at the point of need."
This is an entirely different kind of Labour Party from one we have seen for over a decade. This is the right way to tackle these questions. Go Wes!
But the country is not quite so free when people choose to spend their hard earned on education for their kids, is it?
I don't think that Labour plan to abolish private education, just remove some of its tax breaks.
So, when I was paying £10k a year for education for a child, on which I had paid £4,200 of IT and in respect of which I had been an unpaid tax collector of £2k of tax in the form of VAT, to save my local authority the £5k of costs they would otherwise have incurred in teaching my child I was benefitting from tax breaks? Every day is a learning day on PB, right enough.
My view, David, is that this is the fox hunting of 2024 - it's some class-war red meat to throw to Labour's base whilst Starmer does what he needs to do to win.
Fox hunting is disgusting. Of course it should be banned.
It can't be proven that beating the shit out of hunters (and their thralls) is cruel though so get stuck in.
Wes gave an excellent answer to the private healthcare question I thought.
"It's a free country, people can make that choice [between private and public healthcare] but I want to make sure that people - whether they can afford it or not - have access to great, free healthcare at the point of need."
This is an entirely different kind of Labour Party from one we have seen for over a decade. This is the right way to tackle these questions. Go Wes!
But the country is not quite so free when people choose to spend their hard earned on education for their kids, is it?
I don't think that Labour plan to abolish private education, just remove some of its tax breaks.
So, when I was paying £10k a year for education for a child, on which I had paid £4,200 of IT and in respect of which I had been an unpaid tax collector of £2k of tax in the form of VAT, to save my local authority the £5k of costs they would otherwise have incurred in teaching my child I was benefitting from tax breaks? Every day is a learning day on PB, right enough.
My view, David, is that this is the fox hunting of 2024 - it's some class-war red meat to throw to Labour's base whilst Starmer does what he needs to do to win.
Fox hunting is disgusting. Of course it should be banned.
I think many things are disgusting. I don't think they should be banned.
Why do care workers get paid so little? Is it lack of demand for these jobs?
I can’t help but think train drivers would be on minimum wage if it weren’t for unions. Although then again pilots get paid well and they’re not going on strike.
Somebody please educate me
There is no way to answer this question without offending the common-sense morality that says low-skilled medical carers are the most important people in the world. But care workers are often substituting for the work done in previous generations by families, whereas planes and trains don't go without the approval of the principal in charge.
What about nurses then?
In the US doctors get paid a shit tonne, is this because it's all privatised?
Nurses are somewhat in the same position. We professionalise nursing, but ultimately it's not a role with much executive decision-making like a consultant has. Yanks spend far more per person, and a lot of doctors' pay goes on student debt and malpractice lawyers.
Train drivers don't have a lot of decision making either? Unions?
No train driver, no journeys that day. No nurses, the care happens on a different day. Is my best guess. It's easier to substitute the valuable labour activity from one day to another in hospitals, but the foregone flight is lost forever, as happened during the Covids. So a persistent and complete withdrawal of medical services might make nurses as strong as drivers - but would probably sacrifice public opinion.
I guess my question is, if there were no unions or striking was illegal, would train drivers still be paid what they're paid now?
Probably paid less. The union solves the problem aboit getting everyone to withhold work at the same time. However, I do think pilots organise in the same way, but a little differently because it is an international and competitive industry.
Wes gave an excellent answer to the private healthcare question I thought.
"It's a free country, people can make that choice [between private and public healthcare] but I want to make sure that people - whether they can afford it or not - have access to great, free healthcare at the point of need."
This is an entirely different kind of Labour Party from one we have seen for over a decade. This is the right way to tackle these questions. Go Wes!
But the country is not quite so free when people choose to spend their hard earned on education for their kids, is it?
I don't think that Labour plan to abolish private education, just remove some of its tax breaks.
So, when I was paying £10k a year for education for a child, on which I had paid £4,200 of IT and in respect of which I had been an unpaid tax collector of £2k of tax in the form of VAT, to save my local authority the £5k of costs they would otherwise have incurred in teaching my child I was benefitting from tax breaks? Every day is a learning day on PB, right enough.
My university debt is £70,000, how much did it cost you? Are you still paying it off?
Not sure I see the link at all but the answer is that I got 5 years of University education with a non repayable grant which, together with holiday earnings, meant I started work completely broke but with no debt at all.
My children will have University debt and I am not sure I see any of them paying it off in full before the mandatory cut off. Student loans and fees are one of many ways current policy disfavours the young, you will get no argument at all from me on that. Denying them the chance of a better education does not help with that though.
Wes gave an excellent answer to the private healthcare question I thought.
"It's a free country, people can make that choice [between private and public healthcare] but I want to make sure that people - whether they can afford it or not - have access to great, free healthcare at the point of need."
This is an entirely different kind of Labour Party from one we have seen for over a decade. This is the right way to tackle these questions. Go Wes!
But the country is not quite so free when people choose to spend their hard earned on education for their kids, is it?
I don't think that Labour plan to abolish private education, just remove some of its tax breaks.
So, when I was paying £10k a year for education for a child, on which I had paid £4,200 of IT and in respect of which I had been an unpaid tax collector of £2k of tax in the form of VAT, to save my local authority the £5k of costs they would otherwise have incurred in teaching my child I was benefitting from tax breaks? Every day is a learning day on PB, right enough.
My university debt is £70,000, how much did it cost you? Are you still paying it off?
Maybe you should have paid VAT on it too?
Great to see you back here. We need to go for that beer sometime?
Wes gave an excellent answer to the private healthcare question I thought.
"It's a free country, people can make that choice [between private and public healthcare] but I want to make sure that people - whether they can afford it or not - have access to great, free healthcare at the point of need."
This is an entirely different kind of Labour Party from one we have seen for over a decade. This is the right way to tackle these questions. Go Wes!
But the country is not quite so free when people choose to spend their hard earned on education for their kids, is it?
I don't think that Labour plan to abolish private education, just remove some of its tax breaks.
So, when I was paying £10k a year for education for a child, on which I had paid £4,200 of IT and in respect of which I had been an unpaid tax collector of £2k of tax in the form of VAT, to save my local authority the £5k of costs they would otherwise have incurred in teaching my child I was benefitting from tax breaks? Every day is a learning day on PB, right enough.
My view, David, is that this is the fox hunting of 2024 - it's some class-war red meat to throw to Labour's base whilst Starmer does what he needs to do to win.
Fox hunting is disgusting. Of course it should be banned.
I think many things are disgusting. I don't think they should be banned.
Oh for a more tolerant society.
This is a ridiculous argument as you well know.
Slavery is disgusting but let's not ban it.
Conflating slavery with fox hunting suggests you need to learn a lot more about politics than even relatively basic concepts like scarcity in the labour market....
Why do care workers get paid so little? Is it lack of demand for these jobs?
I can’t help but think train drivers would be on minimum wage if it weren’t for unions. Although then again pilots get paid well and they’re not going on strike.
Somebody please educate me
Scarcity.
Pilots are most scarce followed by train drivers then care workers. Only a few of us are equipped educationally, technically and intelligence-wise to be a pilot. Many more could, in theory, be a care worker.
Scarcity plays a part but so do barriers to entry. One of the main reasons that doctors, lawyers, pilots and other professionals have higher wages is that they create barriers to entry and limit the training of competition aggravating that initial scarcity and boosting wages. The BMA, for example, have been absolutely brilliant at this.
Wes gave an excellent answer to the private healthcare question I thought.
"It's a free country, people can make that choice [between private and public healthcare] but I want to make sure that people - whether they can afford it or not - have access to great, free healthcare at the point of need."
This is an entirely different kind of Labour Party from one we have seen for over a decade. This is the right way to tackle these questions. Go Wes!
But the country is not quite so free when people choose to spend their hard earned on education for their kids, is it?
I don't think that Labour plan to abolish private education, just remove some of its tax breaks.
So, when I was paying £10k a year for education for a child, on which I had paid £4,200 of IT and in respect of which I had been an unpaid tax collector of £2k of tax in the form of VAT, to save my local authority the £5k of costs they would otherwise have incurred in teaching my child I was benefitting from tax breaks? Every day is a learning day on PB, right enough.
My view, David, is that this is the fox hunting of 2024 - it's some class-war red meat to throw to Labour's base whilst Starmer does what he needs to do to win.
Fox hunting is disgusting. Of course it should be banned.
I think many things are disgusting. I don't think they should be banned.
Oh for a more tolerant society.
This is a ridiculous argument as you well know.
Slavery is disgusting but let's not ban it.
Conflating slavery with fox hunting suggests you need to learn a lot more about politics than even relatively basic concepts like scarcity in the labour market....
No I was pointing out the absurdity of your argument.
We used to allow chickens to sit in tiny crates not able to move to produce eggs and meat. This was banned as it was inhumane.
Do you think that was right? The industry wasn't going to act because they claimed it would put up prices.
And we've got another condescending arse having a go at people for asking questions - the only way to educate yourself is to say when you don't know something. I will be avoiding said user in the future.
Meanwhile, let’s head over to Germany to see how Merkel’s “welcome kultur” is doing. See how the Syrians are enjoying their peaceful new country, in Berlin on New Year’s Eve
Wes gave an excellent answer to the private healthcare question I thought.
"It's a free country, people can make that choice [between private and public healthcare] but I want to make sure that people - whether they can afford it or not - have access to great, free healthcare at the point of need."
This is an entirely different kind of Labour Party from one we have seen for over a decade. This is the right way to tackle these questions. Go Wes!
But the country is not quite so free when people choose to spend their hard earned on education for their kids, is it?
I don't think that Labour plan to abolish private education, just remove some of its tax breaks.
So, when I was paying £10k a year for education for a child, on which I had paid £4,200 of IT and in respect of which I had been an unpaid tax collector of £2k of tax in the form of VAT, to save my local authority the £5k of costs they would otherwise have incurred in teaching my child I was benefitting from tax breaks? Every day is a learning day on PB, right enough.
My view, David, is that this is the fox hunting of 2024 - it's some class-war red meat to throw to Labour's base whilst Starmer does what he needs to do to win.
Fox hunting is disgusting. Of course it should be banned.
I think many things are disgusting. I don't think they should be banned.
Oh for a more tolerant society.
This is a ridiculous argument as you well know.
Slavery is disgusting but let's not ban it.
Conflating slavery with fox hunting suggests you need to learn a lot more about politics than even relatively basic concepts like scarcity in the labour market....
No I was pointing out the absurdity of your argument.
We used to allow chickens to sit in tiny crates not able to move to produce eggs and meat. This was banned as it was inhumane.
Do you think that was right? The industry wasn't going to act because they claimed it would put up prices.
Do you think packs of wild wolves hunting moose in the Yukon is cruel?
It's curious - I don't often talk politics with those around me. I have my views and as on here I'm generally in a minority of one on most things.
The normally apolitical Mrs Stodge has got hugely worked up about Harry (or Henry) and Meghan. I can't get past the fact everyone now seems to despise him (note: except those in a minority of one) and everyone wants him to shut up yet they devour the salacious nonsense that's plastered all over the front pages of the newspapers.
Harry seems to have taken the oxygen of publicity and fanned it into a forest fire of vitriol. It's the kind of vilification usually reserved for the French, Germans, unsuccessful English sporting teams and leaders of the Labour Party.
The anti-H&M types are exactly equal in their obnoxiousness to the pro-H&M types, at each stage on the scale from polite interest to call-the-PREVENT-hotline.
The Gulliver’s Travels religious war between the Big Endians and Little Endians comes to mind.
Perhaps - I've yet to encounter much in the way of "pro-H&M types" as you put it. In my circle, my indifference is as close to a favourable impression as exists and I'm regularly berated for not joining in the "15 Minutes Hate".
And we've got another condescending arse having a go at people for asking questions - the only way to educate yourself is to say when you don't know something. I will be avoiding said user in the future.
For you, condescension is whenever you come off worse in an argument - sometimes you end it with personal abuse for good measure as well.
I am aware of your personal issues, and sensitive to them, so have decided to simply ignore your provocations, but you'd do well to recognise and reflect on that.
From being a notably peaceful country, 20 years ago, Sweden now has more rapes than any other European country, and it is nearing the top of the table for bombings and shootings
“From Europe's lowest crime rates to being the region's homicide capital - we look at the deterioration of Sweden's security landscape and what the government and law enforcement is doing to tackle the issue: hubs.ly/Q01wC7Zk0”
Stuart Dickson never speaks of this. Odd
On the plus side, where would Scandi-noir be without it?
From being a notably peaceful country, 20 years ago, Sweden now has more rapes than any other European country, and it is nearing the top of the table for bombings and shootings
“From Europe's lowest crime rates to being the region's homicide capital - we look at the deterioration of Sweden's security landscape and what the government and law enforcement is doing to tackle the issue: hubs.ly/Q01wC7Zk0”
Stuart Dickson never speaks of this. Odd
On the plus side, where would Scandi-noir be without it?
It's pretty sad, though. What happens when you place certain points of view beyond the pale for so long.
If one was hypothetically looking to move to Asia, with their small business, probably looking at some point to hire from the local population, thus requiring English to be fairly widely spoken, some high tech skilled labour pool, decent rule of law / legal system in order to have some level of confidence in operating there....PB brain trust suggestions?
If one was hypothetically looking to move to Asia, with their small business, probably looking at some point to hire from the local population, thus requiring English to be fairly widely spoken, some high tech skilled labour pool, decent rule of law in order to have some level of confidence in operating there....PB brain trust suggestions?
From being a notably peaceful country, 20 years ago, Sweden now has more rapes than any other European country, and it is nearing the top of the table for bombings and shootings
“From Europe's lowest crime rates to being the region's homicide capital - we look at the deterioration of Sweden's security landscape and what the government and law enforcement is doing to tackle the issue: hubs.ly/Q01wC7Zk0”
Stuart Dickson never speaks of this. Odd
On the plus side, where would Scandi-noir be without it?
It is quite extraordinary, how BADLY multiculturalism and “integration” are proceeding in the EU. Even in Ireland. Ten minutes on Twitter turns up stories you don’t get on MSM. Who knew Berlin had massive riots on NYE?
From being a notably peaceful country, 20 years ago, Sweden now has more rapes than any other European country, and it is nearing the top of the table for bombings and shootings
“From Europe's lowest crime rates to being the region's homicide capital - we look at the deterioration of Sweden's security landscape and what the government and law enforcement is doing to tackle the issue: hubs.ly/Q01wC7Zk0”
Stuart Dickson never speaks of this. Odd
On the plus side, where would Scandi-noir be without it?
It is quite extraordinary, how BADLY multiculturalism and “integration” are proceeding in the EU. Even in Ireland. Ten minutes on Twitter turns up stories you don’t get on MSM. Who knew Berlin had massive riots on NYE?
A mighty storm is potentially brewing, Sweden is simply a pioneer. One of the first social democracies might become a hard/far right fortress
I am presuming in France place likes Paris had their annual car fire bombing to bring in the New Year?
Brexit is an institution. An institution that is yet to deliver any benefits whatsoever. There is nothing on the horizon. Whether you were Leave or Remain the sensible thing to do is to ask what was the point.
In an era where growth is the priority, Brexit is an institution holding us back.
This simply isn't the case. Brexit has ended our domestic politics being dominated by federalist initiatives of the European Commission and the European Council, and questionable rulings of the European Court of Justice. It has ended any further moves to Ever Closer Union. And, it has given us more flexibility in foreign policy, as we are no longer bound by the CFSP, which meant we could act faster on things Ukraine and, also, weren't under political pressure to join the EU vaccine programme (heavily criticised on here at the time) which allowed us to do our own thing.
Yes, it also raises non-tarrif barriers in trading with the continent and the price of that agility, dynamism and independence is we have to accept those costs and take the risk of leading by example from the outside, rather than slowly influencing behind closed doors - not always successfully - within the European institutions.
Both positions are perfectly reasonable ones to take. The EU also suffers from high inflation, sclerotic growth and higher unemployment- even within the eurozone - and it's own web of political problems.
Readmission would reduce the UK-EU trading barriers, at the price of all the political costs listed above, and that's about it. It would solve none of our short, medium and long-term problems and once we were back in we'd be having exactly the same frustrated debates as before.
It is not a solution to anything. The reason emotions are so high about it is because Values - the Rejoin movement are hoping to exploit present frustrations over the economic situation to further their internationalist political objectives, and possibly then some, and it's as plain as day to anyone who's looking properly.
The Leave campaign made a lot of promises that turned out not to be true. The government insisted on the hardest possible Brexit deal short of no deal at all. The issue is not Brexit itself, but the way it’s been done. Because of that, there is an opportunity to rethink it and make it much less onerous. That’s the way to some palpable positives appearing. If this route is not chosen, though - if the experienced costs continue to significantly outweigh the perceived benefits - the pressure to Rejoin is only going to increase.
Look, even I am able to see that the present form of Brexit isn't politically sustainable - and I would have always been happy with EFTA or even EEA-EFTA with an emergency brake and said so as much throughout 2017-2019 - but that does not mean the answer is to swing to the other extreme, pretend it never happened, *and* join Schengen and the Euro on top.
That is simply barking and likely to lead to an even nastier backlash the other way in future when the consequences of that political and economic straitjacket become apparent.
The median position of the typical British voter has been and remains what it has always been: membership of a common market, freedom to travel for work and pleasure (within reason) and good relations, but no political or economic union or judicial supremacy outside these islands.
Yep, I agree. But if the median position is not close to being delivered, the question becomes: is membership of the EU so onerous that it’s worth the sacrifices we have to make to stay out of it?
On standard terms, I'm afraid it is.
The EU needs to be flexible if it wants a constructive collaborative long-term relationship with the UK, and vice-versa, and sensitive to the politics.
We got here because of its dogmatic one-size-fits-all position, that brooked no criticism, and its arrogance in unceremoniously ignoring any democratic rejection.
Have they learnt their lesson?
I suspect that your barriers to rejoining may be higher than many other people’s. As I say, though, there is a way to a Brexit most of us can live with - closer trading ties based on common standards, a decoupling of freedom of movement and freedom of settlement, the UK outside of the political framework, etc - but right now the benefits are not apparent to a majority of voters and the promises the Leave campaign made are clearly not seen to have been delivered. If things don’t change, Rejoin will begin to gain the traction it doesn’t yet have. Given Remain voters haven’t been persuaded to change their minds since 2016, a combination of Leave voters departing this earth and a few others rethinking is all it will take. Of course, it doesn’t have to be that way. Other Brexits could well be available, but they are probably not ones a Conservative government can deliver.
If one was hypothetically looking to move to Asia, with their small business, probably looking at some point to hire from the local population, thus requiring English to be fairly widely spoken, some high tech skilled labour pool, decent rule of law in order to have some level of confidence in operating there....PB brain trust suggestions?
Singapore?
No brainer, or for a slightly cheaper but still English speaking option (but more bureaucratic) Malaysia.
It’s a tragedy that nobody in their right mind would recommend Hong Kong these days, and few would risk Taiwan.
If one was hypothetically looking to move to Asia, with their small business, probably looking at some point to hire from the local population, thus requiring English to be fairly widely spoken, some high tech skilled labour pool, decent rule of law / legal system in order to have some level of confidence in operating there....PB brain trust suggestions?
I’m reading Douglas Murray’s “The strange death of Europe”
It’s not for the faint hearted or Woke. It is also rather good, and a devastating analysis of the migrant crisis of the 2010s
Which makes it relevant to this debate. I am pretty sure we will soon be looking at another, even bigger migrant crisis. Something that will dwarf the last. Climate change isn’t going away, Africa and the MENA are still in bad shape, in the main
The EU will be flooded with unwanted migrants. At that point Schengen, Free Movement and the EU as a whole might look like really bad news, and Brexit might seem an inspired choice
Events, dear boy. Events
Interesting piece in The Observer today on just that topic.
Certainly interesting but the main conclusion I drew from it is that the left has been incredibly silly going down the identity politics rabbit hole. It also does the classic Guardian thing of not actually engaging with an issue but merely offering commentary on the nasty reaction from the right. London has been transformed by mass immigration. Birmingham too. Is this a good thing or a bad thing? What have the benefits or challenges been?
As for the great replacement theory of course it is absurd to think there is an organised conspiracy. However there was a book from 2004 called The Emerging Democratic Majority. It makes clear that increasingly racial diversity will benefit the democrats electorally. It would be naive to think there isn't at least an element of political calculation involved in immigration policies. I also vividly remember listening to a talk at a Davos type event where Americans were talking about the decline of Europe but believed that the US would be okay because of the continual supply of aspirational immigrants, even as 3rd or 4th generation migrants tended to become slothful. Not exactly 'great replacement' but hardly a complimentary view of old stock inhabitants.
Merkel’s WilkommensKultur was a total catastrophe. Taken with her Putinism she must go down as the most overrated German Chancellor in history
7 years after she threw open the doors, 65% of Syrians are still on benefits
Ah Sunday morning, the day totally free and open before me…think I’ll poach a few eggs and spend me a bit of time on hate-Twitter.
It’s absolutely relevant to the thread. Will we want to rejoin the EU if it is wracked, in places, by migrant violence and struggling with millions more refugees?
To find out, you have to go on Twitter. Because so much of this stuff - Sweden, Ireland, Germany - does not make our media
Merkel’s WilkommensKultur was a total catastrophe. Taken with her Putinism she must go down as the most overrated German Chancellor in history
7 years after she threw open the doors, 65% of Syrians are still on benefits
Ah Sunday morning, the day totally free and open before me…think I’ll poach a few eggs and spend me a bit of time on hate-Twitter.
It’s absolutely relevant to the thread. Will we want to rejoin the EU if it is wracked, in places, by migrant violence and struggling with millions more refugees?
To find out, you have to go on Twitter. Because so much of this stuff - Sweden, Ireland, Germany - does not make our media
The store of local human misery is surely more than enough without trawling through Twitter on some kind of dystopian Club Med tour.
“Following an outbreak of riots across multiple cities on New Year’s Eve which saw, among other things, cars set alight as well as police and firefighters attacked, a top politician from Germany’s Christian Democratic Union (CDU) party blamed the government’s failure to integrate the exceptionally large number of migrants and asylum seekers who have come to the country in recent years.
While speaking to the T-Online news portal on Monday, January 2nd, Jens Spahn, the deputy leader of the CDU parliamentary group called on German politicians to seriously consider why New Year’s Eve ‘celebrations’ have become increasingly violent over the years, in the same places with the same participants, arguing that the problem is “more about unregulated migration, failed integration, and a lack of respect for the state,” Berliner Zeitung reports.
“The attacks on emergency services are unspeakable,” Spahn added.”
Comments
There seems to be increasing acceptance that we collectively eat too much meat for environmental reasons , though the Government is leaving it to consumers to take the lead, see e.g.
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/jan/05/ministers-run-scared-of-targeting-meat-consumption-in-land-use-strategy
I think you know most of us won't have a clue what they stand for, but since you do it reserves a special level of knowledge and authority to you, and that tells me you have a secret insecurity.
If you didn't, you'd explain or spell these out as you went - as other posters do.
Also, he earlier described Kemi Badenoch as a “bespectacled BIPOC She-Corbyn” which is excellent and grants him a free pass to be annoying for the rest of the day
It's a bit like how hard-core diets are never sustained beyond a few months; they come in and out of fashion and some try it out to prove something to themselves, and others.
The rest of the time, we are googling.
It's a fascinating character trait.
What happens in the event that the debate stops being divisive (and that might never happen, and probably will take another decade or two)... That's another question. Probably a question for Starmer's successor and a Conservative leader who might not even be an MP yet.
It would involve extra red tape but that would be one to weigh up versus the potential benefits. We looked into it shortly after the Brexit vote when we were brainstorming potential constitutional settlements. The main extra bureaucracy for business would fall on HMRC but would be no greater than that required by Truss’s investment zones or the Freeports. The main thing for individuals would be the need for residence permits or a stamp on the passport akin to a visa. Like HK.
On the first, that is not the case, the huge levels of salt is required to make that fake meat edible. You have traded an item with fat (too much not good), with one that has levels of salt associated with long term health conditions.
On b) even that isn't a given, because it depends on certain niche ingredients that only grow in certain areas of the world, and led to further deforestation, plus airmiles. Then, all the processing of these ingredients requires a huge amount of energy to turn it into something that has the look of meat.
ETA just before Covid hit, the fake sausage rolls were outselling the real ones in our corporate canteen because they tasted better.
Just can't get the skilful lying bastards nowadays.
“Ballymun right now. This needs intervention
Chanting “get them out” & “send them home” as young families look out frightened (a woman with 2 young kids sent us this).
This is utterly sickening.
The centre is a small number of mothers and kids.
Ireland is better than this 😢”
https://twitter.com/dllambo/status/1611797502214242305?s=46&t=iGG0SWvx03ruWEMaYcDVeg
One thing to consider by those who advocate more government spending, is that the fiscal rules of the Euro tend to block this. So a Labour chancellor would have to consider joining the Euro as reducing his/her freedom of action in fiscal policy.
Hence Gordon Brown and his “tests”
The problem with the Euro really comes down to this - interest rates in the Euro area are set for the convenience of the German economy (largely). If the DM still existed, it would have soared into space by now, disadvantaging German exports.
German politicians have told the German people that their success is all down to their hard work and sacrifices- especially pay resteraunt. To an extent that is true. However the Euro has created a situation where the effective exchange rate for selling into much of Europe is tremendously favourable.
So many in Germany see “Southern Europe” as lazy, feckless etc. while those in Southern Europe see the financial system of Europe being run against their interest.
Fiscal transfers are the standard method of dealing with such issues. The rich areas in a financial union need to subsidise the poor areas. IIRC the Economist calculated, some years back, that the fiscal transfers in the Euro zone were half what the classic calculations suggested they should be.
EDIT : exchange rates matter even less in the age of companies such as Revolut, which offer automatic exchange on cashless transactions, at tiny fraction of the market strike. I once paid a hotel bill for 5 people for 2 weeks in a rather nice hotel in Thailand. I worked out that Revolut might have made £10 on the transaction….
The need to welcome their new friends and neighbours.
Ireland is going through a huge demographic change in the next 15 years. They need to embrace it.
And we have two classes of citizenship already, in Northern Ireland.
The polling shows what we've always known - the UK wants a "special" category of membership with the ability to opt out of anything it doesn't like yet to still have a full and equal voice in all other matters. As an aside, we also want to define the notion of the Single Market so it suits us so freedom of capital yes but freedom of labour in terms of free movement of people and workers, no.
That's fine - there's no problem emphasising what we perceive to be in our national interest - but the EU has to decide the extent to which it is prepared to accommodate our bespoke requirements, or not. Any initial negotiation stats from that - we put up the kind of membership we would like and it's up to the EU to decide whether they want to adhere strictly to their own rules or recognise we are, for all our eccentricities, a large and valuable trading and economic partner.
As others have already said, however, membership or otherwise of the EU is peripheral to the deeper socio-economic problems such as the NHS and the fundamental relationships within the economy.
I'm feeling a lot better than last week as well. The weather was a bit worse as well, particularly towards the end, as it felt slightly cooler with a biting strong wind and intermittent drizzle.
Still, two down, fifty to go. I'm starting to think I might be able to do this...
There isn't a snowball in hell's chance of us rejoining though. Why would they let us? How could we accept worse terms than those we gave up?
What we might achieve, if we are wise and fortunate enough, if a newly constructed and positive relationship with the EU. Of course we'd need some wise and fortunate politicians to achieve that. Voters can do their bit here by indicating their displeasure with those incumbent MPs who helped to lead us into this sorry position.
It's not a lot, but at least it's something.
Though of course post SC judgement neither Sunak nor even Starmer will be granting indyref2 anytime soon
The normally apolitical Mrs Stodge has got hugely worked up about Harry (or Henry) and Meghan. I can't get past the fact everyone now seems to despise him (note: except those in a minority of one) and everyone wants him to shut up yet they devour the salacious nonsense that's plastered all over the front pages of the newspapers.
Harry seems to have taken the oxygen of publicity and fanned it into a forest fire of vitriol. It's the kind of vilification usually reserved for the French, Germans, unsuccessful English sporting teams and leaders of the Labour Party.
Also you’ll find many Remainers aren’t that keen on the Euro .
If the Treaties were changed to make it clear any joining country doesn’t have to have joining the Euro as an end point then I think rejoin could win .
Regardless I do think that any new ref would need a very strong majority and that is really only likely for the next generation .
"It's a free country, people can make that choice [between private and public healthcare] but I want to make sure that people - whether they can afford it or not - have access to great, free healthcare at the point of need."
This is an entirely different kind of Labour Party from one we have seen for over a decade. This is the right way to tackle these questions. Go Wes!
It is to his credit that he has not fallen into this very obvious trap.
There are better, more enjoyable, and less physically corrosive challenges to set oneself.
Perfectly consistent.
I can’t help but think train drivers would be on minimum wage if it weren’t for unions. Although then again pilots get paid well and they’re not going on strike.
Somebody please educate me
It would be nice if we didn't talk about it every day, though. Pb.com is endlessly fascinating and insightful on all sorts of other subjects when we allow ourselves to be.
Why do it? It's a challenge. In 2021 I ran every day, averaging over 7 miles a day. Twenty years ago I spent a year walking 6,200 miles around the coast. Yes, there might be physical issues, but thirty years ago I could often not walk at all, so at worst I'll only be back to that state.
And I actually enjoy the challenge. True, parts of the run can be quite miserable (the last hill on Broadway out of Bourn past the Roman burial barrows is a b*tch), but generally I enjoy it.
In the US doctors get paid a shit tonne, is this because it's all privatised?
It’s an ugly protest. However, perhaps some Irish people don’t want Ireland to become like Sweden, which is plunging into violence, due almost completely to mass immigration
(64) - Dec 31 - Three people were shot in a driveby outside McDonald’s in Vällingby, NW Stockholm. One of the victims, a 20-year old man, later died. Attackers set of fireworks during the shooting to confuse
62) - Dec 25 - A 27-year old Death Patrol gang member and convicted rapist (Mehdi ”Dumle” Sachit) was shot dead early in the morning near his mother’s apartment in Rinkeby, W. Stockholm
(51) - Oct 6 - A 19-year old man was shot dead and a 16-yr old boy was injured in a driveby shooting with automatic gunfire in Saltskog, Södertälje. Four suspects on two mopeds seen escaping
https://twitter.com/crimeswedish/status/1610720924247916567?s=46&t=iGG0SWvx03ruWEMaYcDVeg
As a result, the far right is now sharing power in Sweden
If you don’t want fascists in government, get a grip on immigration. It’s that simple
Those for joining are essentially political.
No independent school makes a profit - either for its investors, owners or staff. All are recycled into furthering the effective education of children. Furthermore, it is not the case the state subsidises the private - the truth is the precise opposite as those that pay fees forfeit their place in the state system, whilst still paying all the tax for it. Private schools actually subsidise the state.
This is why this status quo has lasted for decades, throughout all sorts of government changes.
There are some lies entering common parlance here (which, to be fair, is testament to the effectiveness of Labour's contemporary spin operation) but they must be challenged in the interests of good policy.
https://twitter.com/intellfusion/status/1609189686911680513?s=46&t=iGG0SWvx03ruWEMaYcDVeg
Year in Review: November 2022 🗓️
“From Europe's lowest crime rates to being the region's homicide capital - we look at the deterioration of Sweden's security landscape and what the government and law enforcement is doing to tackle the issue: hubs.ly/Q01wC7Zk0”
Stuart Dickson never speaks of this. Odd
The Gulliver’s Travels religious war between the Big Endians and Little Endians comes to mind.
Which has just got me thinking. Maybe education above the years of mandated education should have VAT applied. The howls from the poly tutors would be hilarious....
Pilots are most scarce followed by train drivers then care workers. Only a few of us are equipped educationally, technically and intelligence-wise to be a pilot. Many more could, in theory, be a care worker.
I guess my question is, would they be paid what they are regardless of unions in which case the outcries about being paid too much are a misnomer, or is it that unions have ensured their pay is good over time?
Oh for a more tolerant society.
Slavery is disgusting but let's not ban it.
My children will have University debt and I am not sure I see any of them paying it off in full before the mandatory cut off. Student loans and fees are one of many ways current policy disfavours the young, you will get no argument at all from me on that. Denying them the chance of a better education does not help with that though.
We used to allow chickens to sit in tiny crates not able to move to produce eggs and meat. This was banned as it was inhumane.
Do you think that was right? The industry wasn't going to act because they claimed it would put up prices.
Oh
https://twitter.com/unitynewsnet/status/1610032413224337409?s=46&t=VorTiAXGq8Up1yDU4iDl_Q
I am aware of your personal issues, and sensitive to them, so have decided to simply ignore your provocations, but you'd do well to recognise and reflect on that.
7 years after she threw open the doors, 65% of Syrians are still on benefits
Brexit is the turd, not the turd-blossom.
Attacking ambulances and shooting at police
https://twitter.com/irclockm/status/1609983969323352064?s=46&t=VorTiAXGq8Up1yDU4iDl_Q
A mighty storm is potentially brewing, Sweden is simply a pioneer. One of the first social democracies might become a hard/far right fortress
It’s a tragedy that nobody in their right mind would recommend Hong Kong these days, and few would risk Taiwan.
As for the great replacement theory of course it is absurd to think there is an organised conspiracy. However there was a book from 2004 called The Emerging Democratic Majority. It makes clear that increasingly racial diversity will benefit the democrats electorally. It would be naive to think there isn't at least an element of political calculation involved in immigration policies. I also vividly remember listening to a talk at a Davos type event where Americans were talking about the decline of Europe but believed that the US would be okay because of the continual supply of aspirational immigrants, even as 3rd or 4th generation migrants tended to become slothful. Not exactly 'great replacement' but hardly a complimentary view of old stock inhabitants.
To find out, you have to go on Twitter. Because so much of this stuff - Sweden, Ireland, Germany - does not make our media
“Following an outbreak of riots across multiple cities on New Year’s Eve which saw, among other things, cars set alight as well as police and firefighters attacked, a top politician from Germany’s Christian Democratic Union (CDU) party blamed the government’s failure to integrate the exceptionally large number of migrants and asylum seekers who have come to the country in recent years.
While speaking to the T-Online news portal on Monday, January 2nd, Jens Spahn, the deputy leader of the CDU parliamentary group called on German politicians to seriously consider why New Year’s Eve ‘celebrations’ have become increasingly violent over the years, in the same places with the same participants, arguing that the problem is “more about unregulated migration, failed integration, and a lack of respect for the state,” Berliner Zeitung reports.
“The attacks on emergency services are unspeakable,” Spahn added.”
https://europeanconservative.com/articles/news/top-cdu-mp-unregulated-mass-migration-failed-integration-to-blame-for-nye-riots/