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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Stephen Dunn looks at the voters who’ll decide GE2015 – tho

SystemSystem Posts: 12,214
edited January 2014 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Stephen Dunn looks at the voters who’ll decide GE2015 – those who live in the marginals

The next General Election is a year and a half away, and it’s going to be interesting (as all elections are for gamblers). Labour currently have a consistent polling share which suggests a Labour majority, if they maintain it.

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    First for UKIP
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    The fact that ethnicity is about average is I think mainly due to the Labour targets from LD being in places like Brent, Bradford, Manchester, Burnley. The figure would be less than average for Lab targets from Con which are disproportionately concentrated in small and medium-sized English towns.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,410
    A fair few Labour targets up north, where the Lib Dem vote will fall away most. Also those southern seats look to be near Brighton is it, imagine lots of Lib Dems in that lot...
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited January 2014
    Places Labour struggled to perform well in last May include Worcester, Gloucester, Tamworth, Stafford, Burton, Warwick&Leamington, South Ribble.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,566
    Potentially interesting but as Stephen says not surprising so far. Look forward to part 2.

    Meanwhile, there's a ComRes looking at which other parties the supporters of each party are disposed to ogle:

    http://comresupdates.eu.com/DCJ-24O6F-F21LMD8E11/cr.aspx

    A bit of care is needed when reading the graph as it's easy to invert by mistake (well, I did, anyway). For instance, that's 15% of UKIP voters who like the Tories, not 15% of Tories who like UKIP (for whom the figure is 23%). The sparcity of Labour voters who like the LibDems or Tories helps explain why the Labour figure has been so steady.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Is this a dog that is not yet barking ?

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/consumertips/tax/10591211/Over-100000-parents-face-child-benefits-tax-fine.html

    "An estimated 105,000 parents are liable to be hit by a £100 fine next week for missing a deadline to hand back child benefit payments for which they were not eligible – unless they have a particularly good excuse.

    Changes in welfare rules saw the benefit withdrawn from 1.1 million middle–class families a year ago. But the onus was put on recipients – any household with one earner on more than £50,000 – to request the payments to stop. Failing to do so means those parents will enter the taxman's labyrinthine system of self–assessment to repay any money they owe."
  • LennonLennon Posts: 1,782
    Interesting - although I would have thought that more useful information could be found by not treating them all as straight Lab/Con fights, but having a more nuanced Lab-Lib, Lab-Con, Con-Lib set. Potentially too much work though, and thanks for what is above.

    As far as the map is concerned - it reminds me of the analysis that someone did for the last election on here - that the battlegrounds were predominantly in the METHS (MIddle English Towns and there Hinterlands I believe) - that appears to have not changed dramatically.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    RodCrosby said:
    Headbutting someone for any reason except self-defence ought to attract an automatic prison sentence IMO.
  • anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746
    edited January 2014

    Potentially interesting but as Stephen says not surprising so far. Look forward to part 2.

    Meanwhile, there's a ComRes looking at which other parties the supporters of each party are disposed to ogle:

    http://comresupdates.eu.com/DCJ-24O6F-F21LMD8E11/cr.aspx

    A bit of care is needed when reading the graph as it's easy to invert by mistake (well, I did, anyway). For instance, that's 15% of UKIP voters who like the Tories, not 15% of Tories who like UKIP (for whom the figure is 23%). The sparcity of Labour voters who like the LibDems or Tories helps explain why the Labour figure has been so steady.

    That is interesting. But I'm still confused by the graph!

    If I understand the graph, UKIP is the preferred second choice of both Labour and Conservatives.
  • Ilford North was a marginal 2005-2010 but now is as low as 84 on Labour's target list.
  • Potentially interesting but as Stephen says not surprising so far. Look forward to part 2.

    Meanwhile, there's a ComRes looking at which other parties the supporters of each party are disposed to ogle:

    http://comresupdates.eu.com/DCJ-24O6F-F21LMD8E11/cr.aspx

    A bit of care is needed when reading the graph as it's easy to invert by mistake (well, I did, anyway). For instance, that's 15% of UKIP voters who like the Tories, not 15% of Tories who like UKIP (for whom the figure is 23%). The sparcity of Labour voters who like the LibDems or Tories helps explain why the Labour figure has been so steady.

    Interesting ComRes article. It seems to suggest that the Conservative strategy of making it "it's him or me" between Dave and Ed is wrongheaded, insofar as, given the choice, anti-Tory pledges, in the main, will choose Ed?

    Have I understood that correctly?

  • Life_ina_market_townLife_ina_market_town Posts: 2,319
    edited January 2014
    The Court of Appeal will tomorrow hear an Attorney General's reference in the case of Ian McLoughlin, and an application for permission to appeal against sentence by Lee Newell. The court will decide whether the Crown Court will continue to be able to impose "whole life orders" after the judgment of the Strasbourg Court in Vinter and others v United Kingdom. Given that sentencing in R v Adebolajo & Adebowale has been adjourned pending the determination of this matter, tomorrow's proceedings are likely to assume considerable political significance, and may be televised.

    The court will be constituted by the Lord Chief Justice, Lord Thomas of Cwmgiedd, the President of the Queen's Bench Division, Sir Brian Leveson, Lady Justice Hallett, Lord Justice Treacy and Mr Justice Burnett. It might be considered odd that the Chief Justice has chosen not to sit with any human rights specialists...
  • @TGOHF

    The government doesn't know who these people are so how is it going to fine them? I was never contacted by HMRC, yet fall into this camp. I have now declared my income through the SA system, which works okay once you work out how to do it – they tweak your tax code and tax some of the benefit through a special tax. But had I not, I have little doubt I would have been receiving CB in full today. Many will be happily ignorant and continue to do so, probably without reprisal.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,834
    Pulpstar said:

    A fair few Labour targets up north, where the Lib Dem vote will fall away most. Also those southern seats look to be near Brighton is it, imagine lots of Lib Dems in that lot...

    Quite a lot of northern Con/Lab marginals already have low LD shares.
  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    edited January 2014
    Thank you Stephen Dunn.

    Your demographic analysis of the 2015 marginals has enabled me to free up hard disk space by deleting my copies of Lord Ashcroft's marginals polling and the Alan Bown financed Survation constituency polls.

    It is good to be able to return to the simplicity of UNS and the certainty of the Sir Roderick endorsed L&N predictions.
  • Life_ina_market_townLife_ina_market_town Posts: 2,319
    edited January 2014
    The prospects of the European Union (Referendum) Bill reaching the statute book grow more remote by the hour. A committee of the whole House of Lords will consider the Bill tomorrow. No doubt anxious to give a six clause Bill the detailed scrutiny that it deserves, their Lordships have tabled 76 amendments to the Bill for the Committee to be consider.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    @TGOHF

    The government doesn't know who these people are so how is it going to fine them? I was never contacted by HMRC, yet fall into this camp. I have now declared my income through the SA system, which works okay once you work out how to do it – they tweak your tax code and tax some of the benefit through a special tax. But had I not, I have little doubt I would have been receiving CB in full today. Many will be happily ignorant and continue to do so, probably without reprisal.

    From the article HMRC know who these people are - it seems these people either don't know they have to SA or cancel the CB or are in denial.

    Sounds like they are in for a nasty letter - which may or not be a surprise.
  • EasterrossEasterross Posts: 1,915
    Good afternoon all. I guess we haven't had a mass resignation of LibDems who might be accused of thinking natural thoughts from the silence and move to this topic.

    It will be very interesting for us all if in fact very few seats actually change hands at GE2015 between the 2 main parties and it comes down to how many seats each takes from the LibDems and others.
  • Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 4,780
    TGOHF said:

    Is this a dog that is not yet barking ?

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/consumertips/tax/10591211/Over-100000-parents-face-child-benefits-tax-fine.html

    "An estimated 105,000 parents are liable to be hit by a £100 fine next week for missing a deadline to hand back child benefit payments for which they were not eligible – unless they have a particularly good excuse.

    Changes in welfare rules saw the benefit withdrawn from 1.1 million middle–class families a year ago. But the onus was put on recipients – any household with one earner on more than £50,000 – to request the payments to stop. Failing to do so means those parents will enter the taxman's labyrinthine system of self–assessment to repay any money they owe."

    Assuming an average of two children each, that will work out at £1,700 a year X 105,000

    So somewhere in the ball park of £180 million of benefit fraud a year if it continues.

    Or, if you're being generous, not fraud, but "overpayments due to claimant error". However, only about 0.9% of all DWP benefits were overpaid last year on account of claimant error. By contrast, the rate for higher rate taxpayers on child benefit now works out at nearly 10%.

    Will IDS throw the book at them? Somehow I don't think that a £100 fine is going to do the trick.
  • Lennon said:

    As far as the map is concerned - it reminds me of the analysis that someone did for the last election on here - that the battlegrounds were predominantly in the METHS (MIddle English Towns and there Hinterlands I believe) - that appears to have not changed dramatically.

    Daily Mail / UKIP territory? Dave's doing a bang up job of keeping them smiling! ;-)
  • TGOHF said:

    @TGOHF

    The government doesn't know who these people are so how is it going to fine them? I was never contacted by HMRC, yet fall into this camp. I have now declared my income through the SA system, which works okay once you work out how to do it – they tweak your tax code and tax some of the benefit through a special tax. But had I not, I have little doubt I would have been receiving CB in full today. Many will be happily ignorant and continue to do so, probably without reprisal.

    From the article HMRC know who these people are - it seems these people either don't know they have to SA or cancel the CB or are in denial.

    Sounds like they are in for a nasty letter - which may or not be a surprise.
    To be honest, I think this proposal was probably more hassle than it was worth for the government. But we shall see how it pans out.

  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    I'm sure he does, but the individual in that case was, I understand, already under care prior to meeting Hancock...
  • Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 4,780
    RodCrosby said:

    I'm sure he does, but the individual in that case was, I understand, already under care prior to meeting Hancock...
    Which didn't stop Hancock, even though the QC found that he knew that.
  • MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699

    RodCrosby said:

    I'm sure he does, but the individual in that case was, I understand, already under care prior to meeting Hancock...
    Which didn't stop Hancock, even though the QC found that he knew that.
    You should read Pascoe's press release today before you assume that you know all that the facts .
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    edited January 2014

    RodCrosby said:

    I'm sure he does, but the individual in that case was, I understand, already under care prior to meeting Hancock...
    Which didn't stop Hancock, even though the QC found that he knew that.
    It hasn't stopped me either in the past. I've learned to be more circumspect now. Mental health of the potential love object is as important as more obvious attributes.
  • LennonLennon Posts: 1,782
    Hugh said:

    Great article.

    I wonder what safe Lab and Con seats look like in these terms (I can guess, but you never know for sure till you look!)

    Or more interestingly, whether it's possible to identify trends, so the safer a seat becomes, the more notable its demographic characteristics become?

    Even more interesting from the perspective of betting - identifying from demographic trends which 'safe-ish' seats shouldn't be, and are thus value long-odds constituency bets.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,410
    Lennon said:

    Hugh said:

    Great article.

    I wonder what safe Lab and Con seats look like in these terms (I can guess, but you never know for sure till you look!)

    Or more interestingly, whether it's possible to identify trends, so the safer a seat becomes, the more notable its demographic characteristics become?

    Even more interesting from the perspective of betting - identifying from demographic trends which 'safe-ish' seats shouldn't be, and are thus value long-odds constituency bets.
    Nabavi found em all already ;)
  • Blobby map was cooler.

    RE:Lamb thread. I remember a 1K lay, however not anything as frivoulous as the odds - might come in handy one day.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,410

    Blobby map was cooler.

    RE:Lamb thread. I remember a 1K lay, however not anything as frivoulous as the odds - might come in handy one day.

    You have a potential liability or potential profit of 1k on Lamb being leader ?
  • At 2 pm tomorrow Nigel Evans MP will appear before Mr Justice King at the Crown Court at Preston for a plea and case management hearing.
  • Liability. I think I was trying to be cool and see if i could move the odds - like I later saw in the quite film Lay the Favourite.
  • "quite good film"
  • It doesn't surprise me that marginals match the average demographic profile of the country. As has been mentioned a lot of it comes down to the mid-size towns and where they are.

    For example:

    Didcot is solidly Labour voting but is far too small to make Wantage marginal
    Slough on the other hand is too large to be marginal as it can form a seat by itself without having to take in any of the surrounding Tory countryside
    Hastings is the right size to be marginal as it balances Labour strength in Hastings itself with Tory countryside (and Rye)

    Other towns similar to Hastings include Bedford, Stevenage, Chester, Redditch, Chatham
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited January 2014
    O/T:

    Trashy story but interesting nonetheless:

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2544516/Billionaire-offered-40million-turn-lesbian-daughter-straight-doubles-offer-20-000-suitors-failed.html

    "Billionaire who offered £40million to anyone who could 'turn' his lesbian daughter straight doubles his offer after 20,000 would-be suitors failed"
  • Maybe it didn't get matched though? Let me check.
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    Lib Dem female MPs now observing 'radio silence' on Rennard, despite the best efforts of sh!t stirring harpies
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/womens-politics/10590485/Lord-Rennard-Flat-out-silence-from-Lib-Dem-female-MPs-isnt-good-enough.html
  • Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 4,780

    RodCrosby said:

    I'm sure he does, but the individual in that case was, I understand, already under care prior to meeting Hancock...
    Which didn't stop Hancock, even though the QC found that he knew that.
    You should read Pascoe's press release today before you assume that you know all that the facts .
    My comment was to draw attention to the irony of Norman Lamb expressing concern as to the mental health of Lord Rennard. He chose to express concern for a perpetrator but none for the victim in the other, parallel, Lib Dem sex scandal who is, unlike Lord Rennard, known to suffer from mental health problems, not least by Mike Hancock as the QC confirmed.

    What makes you assume from that that I assume that I know all of the facts? What I do think is that we know enough from the redacted report to agree with the conclusion that Hancock's conduct was totally reprehensible. Surely you're not still disputing that?

    As to the availability of the full facts, what is needed is for the full unredacted version of the QC's report to be published. In his statement yesterday (not today) the QC all but openly condemned the decision of Portsmouth Lib-Dem council to release neither a redacted nor unredacted version the day before, when they voted down a motion put forward jointly by the leaders of the Conservative and Labour Groups on the Council. i.e. "The constituent was entitled to know the views I had formed of her evidence, even though the full view has not yet been made public. That is the reason why in my view, it would be better for my full report to be published sooner rather than later. In the meantime, I hope that some responsible journalists will draw attention to one of my conclusions which has been made public in the redacted version, namely my admiration for the way that she addressed her mental health issues in front of me."
  • QuincelQuincel Posts: 4,042
    AndyJS:

    20,000 have failed? Has she been on a date every hour of the day since he put up the reward?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,469
    RodCrosby said:

    Lib Dem female MPs now observing 'radio silence' on Rennard, despite the best efforts of sh!t stirring harpies
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/womens-politics/10590485/Lord-Rennard-Flat-out-silence-from-Lib-Dem-female-MPs-isnt-good-enough.html

    Rod, you need to calm down. Calling them 'sh!t stirring harpies' says more about you than them.

    In fact, it's fairly disgusting.
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    I wasn't talking about them.
    And I am entitled to my opinions about those who have exploited and exacerbated this fiasco for their own ends.
  • anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746
    Today's daily politics is available on iPlayer. The Priti Patel bit is 14mins into the programme.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b03sgf32/Daily_Politics_23_01_2014/
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,469
    RodCrosby said:

    I wasn't talking about them.
    And I am entitled to my opinions about those who have exploited and exacerbated this fiasco for their own ends.

    Then pray tell, who were you calling 'sh!t stirring harpies'?

    It's a shame that your work on PR^2 and electoral systems - which is interesting - gets let down by this sort of unintelligent rant.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    RodCrosby said:

    sh!t stirring harpies

    That's what they were was it?

    Charming....

    Mind you, there aren't that many female Lib Dem MPs to keep quiet in the first place.....

    I wonder why? :Innocent Face:

    Do you think any of them owe their position to Lord Rennard?

  • RodCrosby said:

    sh!t stirring harpies

    That's what they were was it?

    Charming....

    Mind you, there aren't that many female Lib Dem MPs to keep quiet in the first place.....

    I wonder why? :Innocent Face:

    Do you think any of them owe their position to Lord Rennard?

    There aren't too many ethnic minority LibDem MPs either :)
  • RodCrosby said:

    I wasn't talking about them.
    And I am entitled to my opinions about those who have exploited and exacerbated this fiasco for their own ends.

    Then pray tell, who were you calling 'sh!t stirring harpies'?

    It's a shame that your work on PR^2 and electoral systems - which is interesting - gets let down by this sort of unintelligent rant.
    Wait till you hear Rod's views on the Jews...
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    AndyJS said:

    O/T:

    Trashy story but interesting nonetheless:

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2544516/Billionaire-offered-40million-turn-lesbian-daughter-straight-doubles-offer-20-000-suitors-failed.html

    "Billionaire who offered £40million to anyone who could 'turn' his lesbian daughter straight doubles his offer after 20,000 would-be suitors failed"

    There's a lot of it about!

    Dr Christian Jensen is going to try 'the cure':

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2544546/Cure-Im-gay-Embarrassing-Bodies-Dr-Christian-Jessen-tests-anti-homosexual-therapies-new-Channel-4-documentary.html
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,469
    O/t:

    Not sure if this has been mentioned, but Perry Barr MP Khalid Mahmood has had a kidney transplant.

    http://labourlist.org/2014/01/labour-mp-recovering-after-kidney-transplant/

    Hope he has a swift recovery.
  • old_labourold_labour Posts: 3,238
    Ironic that the Lib Dems promised to end airbrushing in their manifesto as part of their appeal to women.
  • Betfair seems to be hiding the market from me - it did warn me that because I was using an old IE my experience would be degrading.

    RE:Kidney transplant - the thought occured to me one time that if I was ever to die and people were to think By-Election, that would be a Great Success.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    The shade of Geert Wilders haunts Theresa May:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-25866467

    I would ban Vona úr from entering the UK. He's aggressively anti-Roma and anti-Semitic, has organised a paramilitary organisation and is not conducive to the public good either in Hungary or here.
  • AndyJS said:

    Places Labour struggled to perform well in last May include Worcester, Gloucester, Tamworth, Stafford, Burton, Warwick&Leamington, South Ribble.

    W&L could be an interesting one. There are a fair few students from the University of Warwick in the south of Leamington. If the election takes place in May as scheduled they will be around to vote. And I might even meet a canvasser for the first time in my life in 2015.

  • Just back from Germany. It was a fascinating trip and a real privilege to get to talk to senior IP folk in so many world class R&D-based companies. If only we had a few more of these. But we don't and won't until the way things work here changes dramatically, inside both boardrooms and banks.
  • JonnyJimmyJonnyJimmy Posts: 2,548
    edited January 2014
    Re the latest SNat whinge; why are they complaining about Hague proffering his opinion? Surely UK Foreign Sec is the first person (and last?) they should want from Westminster involved in the debate? It helps raise their profile from Northenest Parish Council to foreign state, which I believe is their aim...
  • JonnyJimmy - Don't know how well this has been reported, it was breifly mentioned on Scot TV, that Danny Alexander - as "the most senior member of UK Gov with a vote" - has stated that he will debate with Salmond. Sounds good to me.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    Re the latest SNat whinge; why are they complaining about Hague proffering his opinion?

    It's part of their RESPECT agenda...

    He's English, so any abuse is fair comment
  • not "he will" I mean "he would"
  • JonnyJimmyJonnyJimmy Posts: 2,548

    JonnyJimmy - Don't know how well this has been reported, it was breifly mentioned on Scot TV, that Danny Alexander - as "the most senior member of UK Gov with a vote" - has stated that he will debate with Salmond. Sounds good to me.

    Judging by the reply from FM's office and the reaction on here, they all seem to view Mr Alexander in a similar, rodenty way to Ms Harman.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,469

    Just back from Germany. It was a fascinating trip and a real privilege to get to talk to senior IP folk in so many world class R&D-based companies. If only we had a few more of these. But we don't and won't until the way things work here changes dramatically, inside both boardrooms and banks.

    Government plays as much of a role as the boardrooms and banks. The government have to create an environment where companies can invest and innovate, and the banks can confidently invest in the right way. Most importantly, governments have to instil more than a five-year plan for the country.

    Something no government minster's been too good at since Heseltine.
  • To return to the topic, I'm not wholly clear what Stephen Dunn means by his last paragraph.

    What I hope he means is that there are two kinds of marginal. In the first, most of the wards are solidly blue or red and the seat is won by whoever's vote comes out. In the other, most of the wards themselves have small majorities and the seat is won on "policy appeal" - whoever can get the "swing" voter into the polling booth.

    It is not intuitively clear to me that these two stereotypes should swing (compared to the previous General Election) in the same direction, or, even if they do, with the same force.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    On topic, I wonder whether it would be more illuminating to look at these marginal constituencies on a more sub-divided basis.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Just back from Germany. It was a fascinating trip and a real privilege to get to talk to senior IP folk in so many world class R&D-based companies. If only we had a few more of these. But we don't and won't until the way things work here changes dramatically, inside both boardrooms and banks.

    SO, you are looking in the wrong place. The lifesciences industry is progressing at great pace - I spent my life with IP driven companies and the consistent view is that the patent box has been extremely helpful
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,341
    Scott_P said:

    Re the latest SNat whinge; why are they complaining about Hague proffering his opinion?

    It's part of their RESPECT agenda...

    He's English, so any abuse is fair comment
    This is nonsense. Just because the Scots criticise the Tories doesn't mean they are anti-English. And it's not a reason for ignoring criticism.

    In any case - it is the inconsistency. Either Hague stays away as his master's principles dictate, not having a vote here, or Cameron comes up and debates.
  • Just back from Germany. It was a fascinating trip and a real privilege to get to talk to senior IP folk in so many world class R&D-based companies. If only we had a few more of these. But we don't and won't until the way things work here changes dramatically, inside both boardrooms and banks.

    Government plays as much of a role as the boardrooms and banks. The government have to create an environment where companies can invest and innovate, and the banks can confidently invest in the right way. Most importantly, governments have to instil more than a five-year plan for the country.

    Something no government minster's been too good at since Heseltine.

    I agree that there is definitely a role for government to play too. I strongly believe in the state as an enabler. But in the end it is the people who run businesses and banks that have to take responsibility for the decisions that they make.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Hague isn't allowed an opinion but Cameron must turn up for a debate ?

    Can we infer that if Cameron does turn up for a debate he must not express an opinion during this debate or there will be further outrage ?

  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    TGOHF said:

    Hague isn't allowed an opinion but Cameron must turn up for a debate ?

    Can we infer that if Cameron does turn up for a debate he must not express an opinion during this debate or there will be further outrage ?

    It's like legal advice.

    You are not allowed to know if it exists.

    And if it does, what it says.

    And whether it says that they don't have to say if it exists...
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Carnyx said:

    Scott_P said:

    Re the latest SNat whinge; why are they complaining about Hague proffering his opinion?

    It's part of their RESPECT agenda...

    He's English, so any abuse is fair comment
    This is nonsense. Just because the Scots criticise the Tories doesn't mean they are anti-English. And it's not a reason for ignoring criticism.

    In any case - it is the inconsistency. Either Hague stays away as his master's principles dictate, not having a vote here, or Cameron comes up and debates.
    There's no inconsistency at all.

    UK government ministers, including the Prime Minister, are entitled to have views on the implications of Scottish independence both for Scotland and for the rest of the UK. Indeed, David Cameron has expressed them on many occasions already. That doesn't mean that he needs to debate with Alex Salmond.

    We have to ask ourselves the question: why does Alex Salmond so desperately want to debate with David Cameron rather than Danny Alexander or Alistair Darling? The answers are obvious really.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,341
    edited January 2014
    antifrank said:

    Carnyx said:

    Scott_P said:

    Re the latest SNat whinge; why are they complaining about Hague proffering his opinion?

    It's part of their RESPECT agenda...

    He's English, so any abuse is fair comment
    This is nonsense. Just because the Scots criticise the Tories doesn't mean they are anti-English. And it's not a reason for ignoring criticism.

    In any case - it is the inconsistency. Either Hague stays away as his master's principles dictate, not having a vote here, or Cameron comes up and debates.
    There's no inconsistency at all.

    UK government ministers, including the Prime Minister, are entitled to have views on the implications of Scottish independence both for Scotland and for the rest of the UK. Indeed, David Cameron has expressed them on many occasions already. That doesn't mean that he needs to debate with Alex Salmond.

    We have to ask ourselves the question: why does Alex Salmond so desperately want to debate with David Cameron rather than Danny Alexander or Alistair Darling? The answers are obvious really.


    One can reverse that - why does Mr Cameron desperately want to avoid debate and send his LD penal battalions instead? Obviously it's a bit of a Mexican standoff.

    And, incidentally, it was Cameron who promised a Respect agenda in the first place.

    It might be more interesting to consider that Mr C's decision is not risk-free, given that (if I recall rightly) polling on both sides of the border and both sides of the question in Scotland shows a majority desire to see such a debate. I suppose his calculation is that if there is a Yes, he's got much bigger worries than being seen not to have strained "every fibre of his being" as I recall him promising a year ago in Edinburgh (appropriately enough, just before the porridge factory photo-op). If there is a No, then he's got nothing to worry about.


  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    edited January 2014
    Carnyx said:

    One can reverse that - why does Mr Cameron desperately want to avoid debate and send his LD penal battalions instead? Obviously it's a bit of a Mexican standoff.

    Whatever the polling says, Cameron will see the debate as all downside and no upside for him or his party. On that basis there's not a cat-in-hell's chance he'll participate in the debate.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    @Carnyx It's more that the UK Government is onto Alex Salmond's game, which is a desperate attempt to win the referendum on a tide of explicit anti-Tory sentiment and subliminal anti-English sentiment. Why should they help him?
  • philiphphiliph Posts: 4,704
    Off topic, but a question for the denzions of PB, to which I would appreciate any help that is forthcoming.

    I'm looking at new business in South Korea, I wonder if there are any cultural, business, ethical or other customs or idiosyncrasies that it would help me to be aware of. I do a bit in Japan, but no other Asian country.

    Thanks in advance for any help.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Carnyx said:

    antifrank said:

    Carnyx said:

    Scott_P said:

    Re the latest SNat whinge; why are they complaining about Hague proffering his opinion?

    It's part of their RESPECT agenda...

    He's English, so any abuse is fair comment
    This is nonsense. Just because the Scots criticise the Tories doesn't mean they are anti-English. And it's not a reason for ignoring criticism.

    In any case - it is the inconsistency. Either Hague stays away as his master's principles dictate, not having a vote here, or Cameron comes up and debates.
    There's no inconsistency at all.

    UK government ministers, including the Prime Minister, are entitled to have views on the implications of Scottish independence both for Scotland and for the rest of the UK. Indeed, David Cameron has expressed them on many occasions already. That doesn't mean that he needs to debate with Alex Salmond.

    We have to ask ourselves the question: why does Alex Salmond so desperately want to debate with David Cameron rather than Danny Alexander or Alistair Darling? The answers are obvious really.


    why does Mr Cameron desperately want to avoid debate and send his LD penal battalions instead?

    Danny has a vote , Dave doesn't.


  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    edited January 2014
    philiph said:

    Off topic, but a question for the denzions of PB, to which I would appreciate any help that is forthcoming.

    I'm looking at new business in South Korea, I wonder if there are any cultural, business, ethical or other customs or idiosyncrasies that it would help me to be aware of. I do a bit in Japan, but no other Asian country.

    Thanks in advance for any help.

    On first meeting a Korean businessperson it's conventional to do the Gagnam Style horse dance and shout "pretty lady". Not doing so can cause grave offence (and, as an aside, was a leading cause of the Korean War).
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Carnyx said:

    antifrank said:

    Carnyx said:

    Scott_P said:

    Re the latest SNat whinge; why are they complaining about Hague proffering his opinion?

    It's part of their RESPECT agenda...

    He's English, so any abuse is fair comment
    This is nonsense. Just because the Scots criticise the Tories doesn't mean they are anti-English. And it's not a reason for ignoring criticism.

    In any case - it is the inconsistency. Either Hague stays away as his master's principles dictate, not having a vote here, or Cameron comes up and debates.
    There's no inconsistency at all.

    UK government ministers, including the Prime Minister, are entitled to have views on the implications of Scottish independence both for Scotland and for the rest of the UK. Indeed, David Cameron has expressed them on many occasions already. That doesn't mean that he needs to debate with Alex Salmond.

    We have to ask ourselves the question: why does Alex Salmond so desperately want to debate with David Cameron rather than Danny Alexander or Alistair Darling? The answers are obvious really.


    One can reverse that - why does Mr Cameron desperately want to avoid debate and send his LD penal battalions instead? Obviously it's a bit of a Mexican standoff.

    And, incidentally, it was Cameron who promised a Respect agenda in the first place.

    It might be more interesting to consider that Mr C's decision is not risk-free, given that (if I recall rightly) polling on both sides of the border and both sides of the question in Scotland shows a majority desire to see such a debate. I suppose his calculation is that if there is a Yes, he's got much bigger worries than being seen not to have strained "every fibre of his being" as I recall him promising a year ago in Edinburgh (appropriately enough, just before the porridge factory photo-op). If there is a No, then he's got nothing to worry about.


    At the risk of being controverisal, Salmond and Cameron are not peers. Cameron is the PM of the UK, Salmond the FM of a region within the UK and a prospective (I presume) leader of an independent Scotland.

    While Scotland remains part of the UK, he is a peer to the leaders of the regional governments in Wales and Northern Ireland and - arguably, de facto, if not de jure - the Mayor of London. They all should be viewed as having equivalent rank to senior Cabinet Ministers.

    If he was insisting on debating Carmichael rather than Alexander he might have a point. To insist on debating Cameron is mere self-aggrandisement.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    philiph said:

    Off topic, but a question for the denzions of PB, to which I would appreciate any help that is forthcoming.

    I'm looking at new business in South Korea, I wonder if there are any cultural, business, ethical or other customs or idiosyncrasies that it would help me to be aware of. I do a bit in Japan, but no other Asian country.

    Thanks in advance for any help.

    If you're not Korean you are liable to get screwed.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    philiph said:

    Off topic, but a question for the denzions of PB, to which I would appreciate any help that is forthcoming.

    I'm looking at new business in South Korea, I wonder if there are any cultural, business, ethical or other customs or idiosyncrasies that it would help me to be aware of. I do a bit in Japan, but no other Asian country.

    Thanks in advance for any help.

    Don't buy a delicious looking dog.
  • LennonLennon Posts: 1,782
    Charles said:

    Carnyx said:





    One can reverse that - why does Mr Cameron desperately want to avoid debate and send his LD penal battalions instead? Obviously it's a bit of a Mexican standoff.

    And, incidentally, it was Cameron who promised a Respect agenda in the first place.

    It might be more interesting to consider that Mr C's decision is not risk-free, given that (if I recall rightly) polling on both sides of the border and both sides of the question in Scotland shows a majority desire to see such a debate. I suppose his calculation is that if there is a Yes, he's got much bigger worries than being seen not to have strained "every fibre of his being" as I recall him promising a year ago in Edinburgh (appropriately enough, just before the porridge factory photo-op). If there is a No, then he's got nothing to worry about.


    At the risk of being controverisal, Salmond and Cameron are not peers. Cameron is the PM of the UK, Salmond the FM of a region within the UK and a prospective (I presume) leader of an independent Scotland.

    While Scotland remains part of the UK, he is a peer to the leaders of the regional governments in Wales and Northern Ireland and - arguably, de facto, if not de jure - the Mayor of London. They all should be viewed as having equivalent rank to senior Cabinet Ministers.

    If he was insisting on debating Carmichael rather than Alexander he might have a point. To insist on debating Cameron is mere self-aggrandisement.
    Wonder what Salmond would do if we sent Boris?
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Lennon said:

    Charles said:

    Carnyx said:





    One can reverse that - why does Mr Cameron desperately want to avoid debate and send his LD penal battalions instead? Obviously it's a bit of a Mexican standoff.

    And, incidentally, it was Cameron who promised a Respect agenda in the first place.

    It might be more interesting to consider that Mr C's decision is not risk-free, given that (if I recall rightly) polling on both sides of the border and both sides of the question in Scotland shows a majority desire to see such a debate. I suppose his calculation is that if there is a Yes, he's got much bigger worries than being seen not to have strained "every fibre of his being" as I recall him promising a year ago in Edinburgh (appropriately enough, just before the porridge factory photo-op). If there is a No, then he's got nothing to worry about.


    At the risk of being controverisal, Salmond and Cameron are not peers. Cameron is the PM of the UK, Salmond the FM of a region within the UK and a prospective (I presume) leader of an independent Scotland.

    While Scotland remains part of the UK, he is a peer to the leaders of the regional governments in Wales and Northern Ireland and - arguably, de facto, if not de jure - the Mayor of London. They all should be viewed as having equivalent rank to senior Cabinet Ministers.

    If he was insisting on debating Carmichael rather than Alexander he might have a point. To insist on debating Cameron is mere self-aggrandisement.
    Wonder what Salmond would do if we sent Boris?
    Tory, check
    Posh, check
    (very) English, check
    Jester, check

    wet himself?
  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    Charles said:


    If he was insisting on debating Carmichael rather than Alexander he might have a point. To insist on debating Cameron is mere self-aggrandisement.

    I think part of the point is to illicit responses like that in order to benefit the 'yes' campaign.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Charles said:

    Carnyx said:

    antifrank said:

    Carnyx said:

    Scott_P said:

    Re the latest SNat whinge; why are they complaining about Hague proffering his opinion?

    It's part of their RESPECT agenda...

    He's English, so any abuse is fair comment
    This is nonsense. Just because the Scots criticise the Tories doesn't mean they are anti-English. And it's not a reason for ignoring criticism.

    In any case - it is the inconsistency. Either Hague stays away as his master's principles dictate, not having a vote here, or Cameron comes up and debates.
    There's no inconsistency at all.

    UK government ministers, including the Prime Minister, are entitled to have views on the implications of Scottish independence both for Scotland and for the rest of the UK. Indeed, David Cameron has expressed them on many occasions already. That doesn't mean that he needs to debate with Alex Salmond.

    We have to ask ourselves the question: why does Alex Salmond so desperately want to debate with David Cameron rather than Danny Alexander or Alistair Darling? The answers are obvious really.


    One can reverse that - why does Mr Cameron desperately want to avoid debate and send his LD penal battalions instead? Obviously it's a bit of a Mexican standoff.

    And, incidentally, it was Cameron who promised a Respect agenda in the first place.

    It might be more interesting to consider that Mr C's decision is not risk-free, given that (if I recall rightly) polling on both sides of the border and both sides of the question in Scotland shows a majority desire to see such a debate. I suppose his calculation is that if there is a Yes, he's got much bigger worries than being seen not to have strained "every fibre of his being" as I recall him promising a year ago in Edinburgh (appropriately enough, just before the porridge factory photo-op). If there is a No, then he's got nothing to worry about.


    To insist on debating Cameron is mere self-aggrandisement.
    Something Salmond's never been accused of before.....

    It is all so gloriously transparent.....Salmond is losing the argument and this is a desperate gambit.....

  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    Another Rod on Rennard
    "I genuinely believe that some of the actors in this drama are psychologically damaged individuals, wrapped up in their pointless furies, unable to see the forest for the trees, determined to exact revenge — and destroy an individual — for the slightest of slights, consumed as they are by an absurd ideology. And in response, the party behaves without a shred of moral fibre or principle. Never ever vote for these people. They’ll take it as a come-on."
    http://www.spectator.co.uk/columnists/rod-liddle/9121161/rod-liddle-why-didnt-bridget-harris-just-slap-lord-rennard/
  • London has three or four times the GDP of Scotland. Johnson far outranks Salmond.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    edited January 2014
    Neil said:

    Charles said:


    If he was insisting on debating Carmichael rather than Alexander he might have a point. To insist on debating Cameron is mere self-aggrandisement.

    I think part of the point is to illicit responses like that in order to benefit the 'yes' campaign.
    I am not sure the view of "some bloke that posts on a website" will really benefit the 'yes' campaign that much!

    (It's also an accurate statement of fact...)
  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    Charles said:

    Neil said:

    Charles said:


    If he was insisting on debating Carmichael rather than Alexander he might have a point. To insist on debating Cameron is mere self-aggrandisement.

    I think part of the point is to illicit responses like that in order to benefit the 'yes' campaign.
    I am not sure the view of "some bloke that posts on a website" will really benefit the 'yes' campaign that much!

    (It's also an accurate statement of fact...)
    I didnt mean from you, Charles.
  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    RodCrosby said:

    Another Rod on Rennard

    This Rod makes your views look refreshing!
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,469
    RodCrosby said:

    Another Rod on Rennard
    "I genuinely believe that some of the actors in this drama are psychologically damaged individuals, wrapped up in their pointless furies, unable to see the forest for the trees, determined to exact revenge — and destroy an individual — for the slightest of slights, consumed as they are by an absurd ideology. And in response, the party behaves without a shred of moral fibre or principle. Never ever vote for these people. They’ll take it as a come-on."
    http://www.spectator.co.uk/columnists/rod-liddle/9121161/rod-liddle-why-didnt-bridget-harris-just-slap-lord-rennard/

    I would have thought you'd have left off, given the way you've just embarrassed yourself.

    Stick to electoral reform and PR^2, rather than insulting women.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,962
    F1: seems Lotus will be the only team not to be at the first test.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,469
    Off-topic:

    When grouting goes wrong:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-25862543

    I can just imagine the people on the surface: "Hmmm, this void seems larger than we expected. Let's just pump more in..." ;-)
  • philiph said:

    Off topic, but a question for the denzions of PB, to which I would appreciate any help that is forthcoming.

    I'm looking at new business in South Korea, I wonder if there are any cultural, business, ethical or other customs or idiosyncrasies that it would help me to be aware of. I do a bit in Japan, but no other Asian country.

    Thanks in advance for any help.

    Take thousands of business cards and be prepared to drink. The Koreans are very friendly in my experience and much more direct than the Japanese.

  • "London has three or four times the GDP of Scotland"

    Really? Yet they're roughly the same population size. Clearly London is doing something right and Scotland is doing something wrong. Scots are clearly missing a trick here. If I was in charge of Scotland I'd copy whatever London is doing and triple GDP.
  • perdixperdix Posts: 1,806
    @philiph,
    One way Korean males like to cement their friendship is to get totally pissed together. Not sure how much this applies to foreigners!
    Thirty percent of Koreans are Christians, evangelised by American missionaries. They mostly pray for themselves and their families, not others.
    They don't like the Japanese but are willing to do business with them, especially if it brings forward the day of Korean superiority.
    If you should one day be invited to the home of a boss, his wife is likely to be expected to remain in the kitchen.
  • Charles said:

    Just back from Germany. It was a fascinating trip and a real privilege to get to talk to senior IP folk in so many world class R&D-based companies. If only we had a few more of these. But we don't and won't until the way things work here changes dramatically, inside both boardrooms and banks.

    SO, you are looking in the wrong place. The lifesciences industry is progressing at great pace - I spent my life with IP driven companies and the consistent view is that the patent box has been extremely helpful.

    The patent box works well for life sciences companies because they already know IP and invest in creating it via R&D. I am not sure it has really incentivised all those companies that don't do it to change their ways. But it is potentially a great scheme.

    We do have some great life sciences companies, I agree. So do the Germans. Where they beat us hands down is that they also have them in loads of other areas too. It was a real eye opener going into companies and seeing how they work close up.

  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Rod Liddle has a point - death by aching political correctness is a fitting way for the LDs to crumble.
  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815

    Charles said:

    Carnyx said:

    antifrank said:

    Carnyx said:

    Scott_P said:

    Re the latest SNat whinge; why are they complaining about Hague proffering his opinion?

    It's part of their RESPECT agenda...

    He's English, so any abuse is fair comment
    This is nonsense. Just because the Scots criticise the Tories doesn't mean they are anti-English. And it's not a reason for ignoring criticism.

    In any case - it is the inconsistency. Either Hague stays away as his master's principles dictate, not having a vote here, or Cameron comes up and debates.
    There's no inconsistency at all.

    UK government ministers, including the Prime Minister, are entitled to have views on the implications of Scottish independence both for Scotland and for the rest of the UK. Indeed, David Cameron has expressed them on many occasions already. That doesn't mean that he needs to debate with Alex Salmond.

    We have to ask ourselves the question: why does Alex Salmond so desperately want to debate with David Cameron rather than Danny Alexander or Alistair Darling? The answers are obvious really.


    One can reverse that - why does Mr Cameron desperately want to avoid debate and send his LD penal battalions instead? Obviously it's a bit of a Mexican standoff.

    And, incidentally, it was Cameron who promised a Respect agenda in the first place.

    It might be more interesting to consider that Mr C's decision is not risk-free, given that (if I recall rightly) polling on both sides of the border and both sides of the question in Scotland shows a majority desire to see such a debate. I suppose his calculation is that if there is a Yes, he's got much bigger worries than being seen not to have strained "every fibre of his being" as I recall him promising a year ago in Edinburgh (appropriately enough, just before the porridge factory photo-op). If there is a No, then he's got nothing to worry about.


    To insist on debating Cameron is mere self-aggrandisement.
    Something Salmond's never been accused of before.....

    It is all so gloriously transparent.....Salmond is losing the argument and this is a desperate gambit.....

    Cameron could show no higher form of respect to the Scottish Nationalists' aspiration for their country to become an independent state, than to send to Scotland the UK's Foreign Secretary.
  • "London has three or four times the GDP of Scotland"

    Really? Yet they're roughly the same population size. Clearly London is doing something right and Scotland is doing something wrong. Scots are clearly missing a trick here. If I was in charge of Scotland I'd copy whatever London is doing and triple GDP.

    On no measure do London and Scotland have roughly the same population size. Greater London has about three times Scotland's population.

This discussion has been closed.