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Starmer’s responds to Truss’s “LAB is anti-growth” attack – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,049
edited October 2022 in General
Starmer’s responds to Truss’s “LAB is anti-growth” attack – politicalbetting.com

Liz Truss isn’t just anti-growth, she is the destroyer of growth. Speaking to radio stations across the country, I set out how Labour would do things differently — we would deliver real long-term economic growth for Britain. pic.twitter.com/1UP97Rriu7

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,018
    First like Arsenal.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,796
    tlg86 said:

    First like Arsenal.

    you've been waiting 18 years for that
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,368
    First like Labour

    (Been waiting 12 years for that)
  • AlistairMAlistairM Posts: 2,005
    Going to be a tough winter for Russian soldiers.

    ⚡️Ukrainian Defense Minister Oleksii Reznikov: "We have precise information from our Turkish partners that Russians tried to order 200 thousand flak jackets and 500 thousand sets of winter clothes through third countries. It means that they have a problem with this.”
    “Turkish partners, by the way, refused them.”
    https://twitter.com/Flash_news_ua/status/1578014010053603328
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,119
    Well done Keir. Much better answer than either ridicule (which could be seen as ridiculing the idea of growth) or accepting her policies would create growth - which they probably won’t - and complaining it’s the wrong sort of inequitable growth. Both of which would have fallen into the trap.
  • EPGEPG Posts: 6,639
    A bunch of profit taxes are not going to deliver higher long-term economic growth. It's great to cut taxes for workers in Devon or whatever but they are less likely to withdraw labour supply than foreign investors are to withdraw capital, just look at the last two weeks.
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 6,521
    SKS seems to have managed to do the rounds on local radio without turning every interview into an unmitigated disaster. Refreshing.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 61,471
    edited October 2022
    AlistairM said:

    Going to be a tough winter for Russian soldiers.

    ⚡️Ukrainian Defense Minister Oleksii Reznikov: "We have precise information from our Turkish partners that Russians tried to order 200 thousand flak jackets and 500 thousand sets of winter clothes through third countries. It means that they have a problem with this.”
    “Turkish partners, by the way, refused them.”
    https://twitter.com/Flash_news_ua/status/1578014010053603328

    Why on earth do they need 500K sets?

    They expecting to actually mobilise and send to the front that many without Putin being brought down?
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 21,869
    Can I pre-book my power cut between 2am and 5am?

    Sympathies to those cut off during Bake Off.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,162
    Congratulations to Liz and co for starting the very slow road back into normalising the UK’s relationship with Europe.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 53,336
    AlistairM said:

    Going to be a tough winter for Russian soldiers.

    ⚡️Ukrainian Defense Minister Oleksii Reznikov: "We have precise information from our Turkish partners that Russians tried to order 200 thousand flak jackets and 500 thousand sets of winter clothes through third countries. It means that they have a problem with this.”
    “Turkish partners, by the way, refused them.”
    https://twitter.com/Flash_news_ua/status/1578014010053603328

    LOL that the Russian army doesn’t have sufficient winter clothing - and are just thinking about that in October!

    Good on the Turkish, for refusing to take the order.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 41,476
    I like this tweet:

    "THE UKRAINE HAS LOST AT LEAST 10 LIGHT INFANTRY BATTALIONS IN THE LAST MONTH, VERIFIED....."

    https://twitter.com/secretsqrl123/status/1577843117386080259

    Oh no! Another Russian shill!

    But wait, his follow-up:

    "THEY HAVE CAPTURED SO MANY TANKS AND APCs THEY ARE NOW TANK AND MECH INFANTRY BATTALIONS... ITS STARTING TO BE A THING.."

    :)
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,362
    This is @KwasiKwarteng in the Commons a year ago: "There is absolutely no question of the lights going out or people being unable to heat their homes. There will be no 3-day working weeks or a throwback to the 1970s. Such thinking is alarmist, unhelpful and completely misguided."

    https://twitter.com/cathynewman/status/1578038946998931456
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,362
    Richard_Nabavi said:

    I don't think I've ever seen a party throw away its principal political advantage in the way that the Tories have done in the last few weeks. Boris had already tarnished the brand, but Truss and Kwarteng have totally Ratnered it.

    There is still a non-zero chance that some Conservatives will try and rescue the brand from the zealots and fuckwits currently in charge
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 50,609
    Gardenwalker said:

    Congratulations to Liz and co for starting the very slow road back into normalising the UK’s relationship with Europe.

    It's not normal to think of Europe as a thing with which the UK has a relationship. The UK is part of Europe no matter what relationship we have with particular institutions.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    Scott_xP said:

    Richard_Nabavi said:

    I don't think I've ever seen a party throw away its principal political advantage in the way that the Tories have done in the last few weeks. Boris had already tarnished the brand, but Truss and Kwarteng have totally Ratnered it.

    There is still a non-zero chance that some Conservatives will try and rescue the brand from the zealots and fuckwits currently in charge
    Extremely hard, and the very act of trying would result in further carnage within the party. They're stuffed either way.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 41,476
    It appears the Russian wizard wheeze of relying on T-62M tanks in Ukraine is not going as well as they might have hoped, given the number that are being knocked out or abandoned. A 1983 update of an early 1960s tank, taken out of storage and with a few cope cages added is *not* going to perform well on the modern battlefield.

    Looking at Wiki, it seems during a 2018 exercise Russia used some T-62M's brought out of storage to see how quickly and effectively they could be mobilised.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,500
    jamesdoyle said:

    Richard_Nabavi said:

    Labour have been given an extraordinary free gift by Truss and Kwarteng. They now have the opportunity to spend the next couple of years hammering home the message that Labour is now the pro-business party of fiscal responsibility, of stability, of investment, of better relations with our main market, of lower interest rates, of a more stable currency, and therefore of growth. The message will be even more effective because it will be true, relatively at least. Combined with their long-standing political advantage of being seen as better at looking after ordinary people and providing better public services, it's a tremendous election-winning platform if they use it well. The indications are that they understand this and won't screw it up.

    I don't think I've ever seen a party throw away its principal political advantage in the way that the Tories have done in the last few weeks. Boris had already tarnished the brand, but Truss and Kwarteng have totally Ratnered it.

    Give it a couple of years, and even Ratner will be saying, 'Remember when I Kwasi-ed my company?'
    The difficulty Labour have is that they would in all likelihood be worse. Reeves is far better than all of her predescessors though so perhaps that'll change.
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 6,521
    Scott_xP said:

    Richard_Nabavi said:

    I don't think I've ever seen a party throw away its principal political advantage in the way that the Tories have done in the last few weeks. Boris had already tarnished the brand, but Truss and Kwarteng have totally Ratnered it.

    There is still a non-zero chance that some Conservatives will try and rescue the brand from the zealots and fuckwits currently in charge
    I agree but the problem is that the JRMs and Bravermans of the party have been emboldened by the tenures of BoJo and Truss and will take a lot of persuading to go quietly. They can still do a lot of damage to the brand - though admittedly not as much as Truss and Kwasi right now. In fact a trade off might be that they have to be kept in the tent at least in the short-medium term.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 51,738
    Jonathan said:

    First like Labour

    (Been waiting 12 years for that)

    ...and yet again, it went horribly wrong....
  • eekeek Posts: 27,481
    Omnium said:

    jamesdoyle said:

    Richard_Nabavi said:

    Labour have been given an extraordinary free gift by Truss and Kwarteng. They now have the opportunity to spend the next couple of years hammering home the message that Labour is now the pro-business party of fiscal responsibility, of stability, of investment, of better relations with our main market, of lower interest rates, of a more stable currency, and therefore of growth. The message will be even more effective because it will be true, relatively at least. Combined with their long-standing political advantage of being seen as better at looking after ordinary people and providing better public services, it's a tremendous election-winning platform if they use it well. The indications are that they understand this and won't screw it up.

    I don't think I've ever seen a party throw away its principal political advantage in the way that the Tories have done in the last few weeks. Boris had already tarnished the brand, but Truss and Kwarteng have totally Ratnered it.

    Give it a couple of years, and even Ratner will be saying, 'Remember when I Kwasi-ed my company?'
    The difficulty Labour have is that they would in all likelihood be worse. Reeves is far better than all of her predescessors though so perhaps that'll change.
    Given that Kwasi has managed to create a bar that is 2 or so miles below ground it's difficult to see how Labour could do worse.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,362
    Richard_Nabavi said:

    Extremely hard, and the very act of trying would result in further carnage within the party. They're stuffed either way.

    Well, they can choose the degree to which they are "stuffed"

    Mild carnage, or certain extinction
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 53,336
    JosiasJessop said:

    I like this tweet:

    "THE UKRAINE HAS LOST AT LEAST 10 LIGHT INFANTRY BATTALIONS IN THE LAST MONTH, VERIFIED....."

    https://twitter.com/secretsqrl123/status/1577843117386080259

    Oh no! Another Russian shill!

    But wait, his follow-up:

    "THEY HAVE CAPTURED SO MANY TANKS AND APCs THEY ARE NOW TANK AND MECH INFANTRY BATTALIONS... ITS STARTING TO BE A THING.."

    :)

    Last week, the US military placed an order for $165m of ‘non-standard’ ammunition, ie shells for all the captured artillery. Ukraine has Russian tanks and artillery pieces coming out of their ears.

    https://www.govconwire.com/2022/04/state-department-oks-165m-non-standard-ammo-sale-to-ukraine/

    Incidentally, this is some of the first new equipment actually being made specifically for Ukraine. Most of the kit donated so far has been from existing stocks in friendly countries. The GMLRS rocket factory also now has an order, for more HIMARS rockets.
  • EPGEPG Posts: 6,639
    Richard_Nabavi said:

    Labour have been given an extraordinary free gift by Truss and Kwarteng. They now have the opportunity to spend the next couple of years hammering home the message that Labour is now the pro-business party of fiscal responsibility, of stability, of investment, of better relations with our main market, of lower interest rates, of a more stable currency, and therefore of growth. The message will be even more effective because it will be true, relatively at least. Combined with their long-standing political advantage of being seen as better at looking after ordinary people and providing better public services, it's a tremendous election-winning platform if they use it well. The indications are that they understand this and won't screw it up.

    Conversely the Tories will be blamed for everything that goes badly in the economy, which will be a lot, some of it not even their fault.

    I don't think I've ever seen a party throw away its principal political advantage in the way that the Tories have done in the last few weeks. Boris had already tarnished the brand, but Truss and Kwarteng have totally Ratnered it.

    Electorally, yes. The problem is that after the election, it will prove very difficult to change Fed rates, global oil and gas prices or the material consumption expectations of voters.
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 5,907
    Richard_Nabavi said:

    Labour have been given an extraordinary free gift by Truss and Kwarteng. They now have the opportunity to spend the next couple of years hammering home the message that Labour is now the pro-business party of fiscal responsibility, of stability, of investment, of better relations with our main market, of lower interest rates, of a more stable currency, and therefore of growth. The message will be even more effective because it will be true, relatively at least. Combined with their long-standing political advantage of being seen as better at looking after ordinary people and providing better public services, it's a tremendous election-winning platform if they use it well. The indications are that they understand this and won't screw it up.

    Conversely the Tories will be blamed for everything that goes badly in the economy, which will be a lot, some of it not even their fault.

    I don't think I've ever seen a party throw away its principal political advantage in the way that the Tories have done in the last few weeks. Boris had already tarnished the brand, but Truss and Kwarteng have totally Ratnered it.

    The mini budget disaster means Labour can just use that to beat the government with a stick . There are likely to be issues not related to that mini-budget but Labour just need to hammer the message , the Tories crashed the pound , put mortgage rates up and put at risk pension funds . Everything needs to be blamed on that even if it’s not the case .

  • jamesdoylejamesdoyle Posts: 775
    Omnium said:

    jamesdoyle said:

    Richard_Nabavi said:

    Labour have been given an extraordinary free gift by Truss and Kwarteng. They now have the opportunity to spend the next couple of years hammering home the message that Labour is now the pro-business party of fiscal responsibility, of stability, of investment, of better relations with our main market, of lower interest rates, of a more stable currency, and therefore of growth. The message will be even more effective because it will be true, relatively at least. Combined with their long-standing political advantage of being seen as better at looking after ordinary people and providing better public services, it's a tremendous election-winning platform if they use it well. The indications are that they understand this and won't screw it up.

    I don't think I've ever seen a party throw away its principal political advantage in the way that the Tories have done in the last few weeks. Boris had already tarnished the brand, but Truss and Kwarteng have totally Ratnered it.

    Give it a couple of years, and even Ratner will be saying, 'Remember when I Kwasi-ed my company?'
    The difficulty Labour have is that they would in all likelihood be worse. Reeves is far better than all of her predescessors though so perhaps that'll change.
    I don't think so. This is a case where slightly boring, non-ideological beige is perhaps a good thing. And given a large part of government-level politics is 'It was the last lot's fault', they're going to be ploughing a very fertile furrow for a long time following L&K
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,500
    eek said:

    Omnium said:

    jamesdoyle said:

    Richard_Nabavi said:

    Labour have been given an extraordinary free gift by Truss and Kwarteng. They now have the opportunity to spend the next couple of years hammering home the message that Labour is now the pro-business party of fiscal responsibility, of stability, of investment, of better relations with our main market, of lower interest rates, of a more stable currency, and therefore of growth. The message will be even more effective because it will be true, relatively at least. Combined with their long-standing political advantage of being seen as better at looking after ordinary people and providing better public services, it's a tremendous election-winning platform if they use it well. The indications are that they understand this and won't screw it up.

    I don't think I've ever seen a party throw away its principal political advantage in the way that the Tories have done in the last few weeks. Boris had already tarnished the brand, but Truss and Kwarteng have totally Ratnered it.

    Give it a couple of years, and even Ratner will be saying, 'Remember when I Kwasi-ed my company?'
    The difficulty Labour have is that they would in all likelihood be worse. Reeves is far better than all of her predescessors though so perhaps that'll change.
    Given that Kwasi has managed to create a bar that is 2 or so miles below ground it's difficult to see how Labour could do worse.
    Come along, this is Labour!
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,508
    Benn Eubank off.

    What a farce.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 16,910
    Scott_xP said:

    This is @KwasiKwarteng in the Commons a year ago: "There is absolutely no question of the lights going out or people being unable to heat their homes. There will be no 3-day working weeks or a throwback to the 1970s. Such thinking is alarmist, unhelpful and completely misguided."

    https://twitter.com/cathynewman/status/1578038946998931456

    A year ago, so before the war in Ukraine and the downstream effects of that? What's your point?
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    The biggest hinder to growth is Brexit, which Keir Starmer and Labour support.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    EPG said:

    Richard_Nabavi said:

    Labour have been given an extraordinary free gift by Truss and Kwarteng. They now have the opportunity to spend the next couple of years hammering home the message that Labour is now the pro-business party of fiscal responsibility, of stability, of investment, of better relations with our main market, of lower interest rates, of a more stable currency, and therefore of growth. The message will be even more effective because it will be true, relatively at least. Combined with their long-standing political advantage of being seen as better at looking after ordinary people and providing better public services, it's a tremendous election-winning platform if they use it well. The indications are that they understand this and won't screw it up.

    Conversely the Tories will be blamed for everything that goes badly in the economy, which will be a lot, some of it not even their fault.

    I don't think I've ever seen a party throw away its principal political advantage in the way that the Tories have done in the last few weeks. Boris had already tarnished the brand, but Truss and Kwarteng have totally Ratnered it.

    Electorally, yes. The problem is that after the election, it will prove very difficult to change Fed rates, global oil and gas prices or the material consumption expectations of voters.
    Yes, this is a very good point, and in fact even before the election Starmer needs to be careful to manage expectations. But again, I think he gets that. I think voters will respond well to him being straight with them about the time it will take to repair the damage, but as they did to Osborne's messaging in 2010.
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,256
    StuartDickson said:

    The biggest hinder to growth is Brexit, which Keir Starmer and Labour support.

    Yes, he’s now got an opportunity to campaign on a return to the single market. The case is overwhelming.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,500
    jamesdoyle said:

    Omnium said:

    jamesdoyle said:

    Richard_Nabavi said:

    Labour have been given an extraordinary free gift by Truss and Kwarteng. They now have the opportunity to spend the next couple of years hammering home the message that Labour is now the pro-business party of fiscal responsibility, of stability, of investment, of better relations with our main market, of lower interest rates, of a more stable currency, and therefore of growth. The message will be even more effective because it will be true, relatively at least. Combined with their long-standing political advantage of being seen as better at looking after ordinary people and providing better public services, it's a tremendous election-winning platform if they use it well. The indications are that they understand this and won't screw it up.

    I don't think I've ever seen a party throw away its principal political advantage in the way that the Tories have done in the last few weeks. Boris had already tarnished the brand, but Truss and Kwarteng have totally Ratnered it.

    Give it a couple of years, and even Ratner will be saying, 'Remember when I Kwasi-ed my company?'
    The difficulty Labour have is that they would in all likelihood be worse. Reeves is far better than all of her predescessors though so perhaps that'll change.
    I don't think so. This is a case where slightly boring, non-ideological beige is perhaps a good thing. And given a large part of government-level politics is 'It was the last lot's fault', they're going to be ploughing a very fertile furrow for a long time following L&K
    Beige is clearly LD territory. You don't want to go there. One has heard reports!

    Politically you're of course right, but the actual practice of government - we'll see.

  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    JosiasJessop said:

    Scott_xP said:

    This is @KwasiKwarteng in the Commons a year ago: "There is absolutely no question of the lights going out or people being unable to heat their homes. There will be no 3-day working weeks or a throwback to the 1970s. Such thinking is alarmist, unhelpful and completely misguided."

    https://twitter.com/cathynewman/status/1578038946998931456

    In normal times he'd be right. The Ukraine crisis could not really have been expected; and if you had expected it, you would have got odds against it going the way it has (i.e. if Ukraine not 'winning', then Russia certainly losing).

    That's a particularly twattish tweet.
    He was right, the full quote says

    “We have sufficient capacity, and more than sufficient capacity, to meet demand and we do not expect supply emergencies to occur this winter.

    “There is absolutely no question of the lights going out or people being unable to heat their homes. There will be no three-day working weeks or a throwback to the 1970s.

    “Such thinking is alarmist, unhelpful and completely misguided.”

    Winter 2021-22.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,160
    Richard_Nabavi said:

    EPG said:

    Richard_Nabavi said:

    Labour have been given an extraordinary free gift by Truss and Kwarteng. They now have the opportunity to spend the next couple of years hammering home the message that Labour is now the pro-business party of fiscal responsibility, of stability, of investment, of better relations with our main market, of lower interest rates, of a more stable currency, and therefore of growth. The message will be even more effective because it will be true, relatively at least. Combined with their long-standing political advantage of being seen as better at looking after ordinary people and providing better public services, it's a tremendous election-winning platform if they use it well. The indications are that they understand this and won't screw it up.

    Conversely the Tories will be blamed for everything that goes badly in the economy, which will be a lot, some of it not even their fault.

    I don't think I've ever seen a party throw away its principal political advantage in the way that the Tories have done in the last few weeks. Boris had already tarnished the brand, but Truss and Kwarteng have totally Ratnered it.

    Electorally, yes. The problem is that after the election, it will prove very difficult to change Fed rates, global oil and gas prices or the material consumption expectations of voters.
    Yes, this is a very good point, and in fact even before the election Starmer needs to be careful to manage expectations. But again, I think he gets that. I think voters will respond well to him being straight with them about the time it will take to repair the damage, but as they did to Osborne's messaging in 2010.
    Labour needs a big beast like Ed Balls in the Treasury to win and keep market confidence. Someone who won't be afraid of making tough choices and cutting spending or raising taxes on protected groups like pensioners and, sadly for me, homeowners who do get pretty lightly taxed.
  • eekeek Posts: 27,481
    turbotubbs said:

    Scott_xP said:

    This is @KwasiKwarteng in the Commons a year ago: "There is absolutely no question of the lights going out or people being unable to heat their homes. There will be no 3-day working weeks or a throwback to the 1970s. Such thinking is alarmist, unhelpful and completely misguided."

    https://twitter.com/cathynewman/status/1578038946998931456

    A year ago, so before the war in Ukraine and the downstream effects of that? What's your point?
    There is going to be a video that can be used when the time is right for maximum point scoring.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,103
    JosiasJessop said:

    Scott_xP said:

    This is @KwasiKwarteng in the Commons a year ago: "There is absolutely no question of the lights going out or people being unable to heat their homes. There will be no 3-day working weeks or a throwback to the 1970s. Such thinking is alarmist, unhelpful and completely misguided."

    https://twitter.com/cathynewman/status/1578038946998931456

    In normal times he'd be right. The Ukraine crisis could not really have been expected; and if you had expected it, you would have got odds against it going the way it has (i.e. if Ukraine not 'winning', then Russia certainly losing).

    That's a particularly twattish tweet.
    Why was Kwasi ruling out power cuts if there was no prospect of them? What was the context? There must have been some chance, otherwise it would be as pointless as Ben Wallace standing up and saying there is no risk of invasion by Antarctica.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 16,554
    jamesdoyle said:

    Omnium said:

    jamesdoyle said:

    Richard_Nabavi said:

    Labour have been given an extraordinary free gift by Truss and Kwarteng. They now have the opportunity to spend the next couple of years hammering home the message that Labour is now the pro-business party of fiscal responsibility, of stability, of investment, of better relations with our main market, of lower interest rates, of a more stable currency, and therefore of growth. The message will be even more effective because it will be true, relatively at least. Combined with their long-standing political advantage of being seen as better at looking after ordinary people and providing better public services, it's a tremendous election-winning platform if they use it well. The indications are that they understand this and won't screw it up.

    I don't think I've ever seen a party throw away its principal political advantage in the way that the Tories have done in the last few weeks. Boris had already tarnished the brand, but Truss and Kwarteng have totally Ratnered it.

    Give it a couple of years, and even Ratner will be saying, 'Remember when I Kwasi-ed my company?'
    The difficulty Labour have is that they would in all likelihood be worse. Reeves is far better than all of her predescessors though so perhaps that'll change.
    I don't think so. This is a case where slightly boring, non-ideological beige is perhaps a good thing. And given a large part of government-level politics is 'It was the last lot's fault', they're going to be ploughing a very fertile furrow for a long time following L&K
    Even if the model is just being boring and Brexit Without Being A Dick About It, I'd expect that to perk up the prospects for business a fair bit. (At the moment, anything that looks like SM/CU would probably trigger too many voters for it to be politically prudent, but given how things are going that may change enough by 2024.)

    In the same way that making a Bake Off Showstopper is hard, but the UK's current situation is like trying to do that on a bouncy castle where Matt and Noel are bouncing away in the corner.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,500
    StuartDickson said:

    The biggest hinder to growth is Brexit, which Keir Starmer and Labour support.

    Isn't it time to start arguing that the biggest boost to growth would come from the UK joining the EU? (Which may or may not be true)
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,796
    Richard_Nabavi said:

    Labour have been given an extraordinary free gift by Truss and Kwarteng. They now have the opportunity to spend the next couple of years hammering home the message that Labour is now the pro-business party of fiscal responsibility, of stability, of investment, of better relations with our main market, of lower interest rates, of a more stable currency, and therefore of growth. The message will be even more effective because it will be true, relatively at least. Combined with their long-standing political advantage of being seen as better at looking after ordinary people and providing better public services, it's a tremendous election-winning platform if they use it well. The indications are that they understand this and won't screw it up.

    Conversely the Tories will be blamed for everything that goes badly in the economy, which will be a lot, some of it not even their fault.

    I don't think I've ever seen a party throw away its principal political advantage in the way that the Tories have done in the last few weeks. Boris had already tarnished the brand, but Truss and Kwarteng have totally Ratnered it.

    To relinquish the centre ground completely and deliberately must be the greatest act of political folly since Labour elected Corbyn. What makes UK political parties behave in such an irrational way?

    Incidentally I saw my first Banque Alimentaire in Nice today so it's not only a UK phenomenon
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 50,609
    Is Elon Musk heading for financial trouble due to the war in Ukraine or something?

    @KyivPost
    The @elonmusk situation is clearly getting out of hand, and it seems like pride and vanity play a behemoth role in his attempt to pose as an expert on #Ukraine.

    Just stop, Elon. It's ok to admit that you overdid smth. Just stop.

    ------

    @elonmusk replying to @KyivPost
    I’m a big fan of Ukraine, but not of WW3

    https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1578041621093949440
  • UnpopularUnpopular Posts: 874
    nico679 said:

    StuartDickson said:

    The biggest hinder to growth is Brexit, which Keir Starmer and Labour support.

    True but Labour won’t win the next GE if they start a re-join campaign . They should promise better relations and some closer trade links but go nowhere near talking about the single market as that involves FOM.

    You couldn’t get a more staunch Remainer than myself but this battle is not for now . The priority for me is removing the Tories not re-fighting Remain v Leave .
    This is where I am also. I would like the future to be a UK in some version of a Federalised EU, but not even I'm not brain-dead enough to think that Starmer should be trying to re-run the referendum.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,051
    DecrepiterJohnL said:

    JosiasJessop said:

    Scott_xP said:

    This is @KwasiKwarteng in the Commons a year ago: "There is absolutely no question of the lights going out or people being unable to heat their homes. There will be no 3-day working weeks or a throwback to the 1970s. Such thinking is alarmist, unhelpful and completely misguided."

    https://twitter.com/cathynewman/status/1578038946998931456

    In normal times he'd be right. The Ukraine crisis could not really have been expected; and if you had expected it, you would have got odds against it going the way it has (i.e. if Ukraine not 'winning', then Russia certainly losing).

    That's a particularly twattish tweet.
    Why was Kwasi ruling out power cuts if there was no prospect of them? What was the context? There must have been some chance, otherwise it would be as pointless as Ben Wallace standing up and saying there is no risk of invasion by Antarctica.
    You obviously haven't seen the Orcas on Frozen Planet II! Nasty lot, with a lot more discipline and organisation, it would appear, than the Russians!
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    DecrepiterJohnL said:

    JosiasJessop said:

    Scott_xP said:

    This is @KwasiKwarteng in the Commons a year ago: "There is absolutely no question of the lights going out or people being unable to heat their homes. There will be no 3-day working weeks or a throwback to the 1970s. Such thinking is alarmist, unhelpful and completely misguided."

    https://twitter.com/cathynewman/status/1578038946998931456

    In normal times he'd be right. The Ukraine crisis could not really have been expected; and if you had expected it, you would have got odds against it going the way it has (i.e. if Ukraine not 'winning', then Russia certainly losing).

    That's a particularly twattish tweet.
    Why was Kwasi ruling out power cuts if there was no prospect of them? What was the context? There must have been some chance, otherwise it would be as pointless as Ben Wallace standing up and saying there is no risk of invasion by Antarctica.
    https://uk.style.yahoo.com/no-lights-going-winter-amid-150119863.html

    gas was rocketing all last year and powercos going bust.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    MaxPB said:


    Labour needs a big beast like Ed Balls in the Treasury to win and keep market confidence. Someone who won't be afraid of making tough choices and cutting spending or raising taxes on protected groups like pensioners and, sadly for me, homeowners who do get pretty lightly taxed.

    Ed Balls would be great, but that's not very likely. It is true that the Labour front bench still looks lightweight. Rachel Reeves is OKish. At least Starmer corrected his bizarre blunder of appointing Anneliese Dodds as Shadow Chancellor, although it took him too long to correct it.
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 8,163
    Omnium said:

    jamesdoyle said:

    Richard_Nabavi said:

    Labour have been given an extraordinary free gift by Truss and Kwarteng. They now have the opportunity to spend the next couple of years hammering home the message that Labour is now the pro-business party of fiscal responsibility, of stability, of investment, of better relations with our main market, of lower interest rates, of a more stable currency, and therefore of growth. The message will be even more effective because it will be true, relatively at least. Combined with their long-standing political advantage of being seen as better at looking after ordinary people and providing better public services, it's a tremendous election-winning platform if they use it well. The indications are that they understand this and won't screw it up.

    I don't think I've ever seen a party throw away its principal political advantage in the way that the Tories have done in the last few weeks. Boris had already tarnished the brand, but Truss and Kwarteng have totally Ratnered it.

    Give it a couple of years, and even Ratner will be saying, 'Remember when I Kwasi-ed my company?'
    The difficulty Labour have is that they would in all likelihood be worse. Reeves is far better than all of her predescessors though so perhaps that'll change.
    Have you been paying attention recently? Have you failed to notice the worst govt the UK has probably ever had is the one in charge today? It is arguable that Corbyn would have done less damage than this lot.

    Or do you think you can turn their fortunes around if you post nonsense often enough?
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,256
    edited October 2022
    Stuartinromford said:

    jamesdoyle said:

    Omnium said:

    jamesdoyle said:

    Richard_Nabavi said:

    Labour have been given an extraordinary free gift by Truss and Kwarteng. They now have the opportunity to spend the next couple of years hammering home the message that Labour is now the pro-business party of fiscal responsibility, of stability, of investment, of better relations with our main market, of lower interest rates, of a more stable currency, and therefore of growth. The message will be even more effective because it will be true, relatively at least. Combined with their long-standing political advantage of being seen as better at looking after ordinary people and providing better public services, it's a tremendous election-winning platform if they use it well. The indications are that they understand this and won't screw it up.

    I don't think I've ever seen a party throw away its principal political advantage in the way that the Tories have done in the last few weeks. Boris had already tarnished the brand, but Truss and Kwarteng have totally Ratnered it.

    Give it a couple of years, and even Ratner will be saying, 'Remember when I Kwasi-ed my company?'
    The difficulty Labour have is that they would in all likelihood be worse. Reeves is far better than all of her predescessors though so perhaps that'll change.
    I don't think so. This is a case where slightly boring, non-ideological beige is perhaps a good thing. And given a large part of government-level politics is 'It was the last lot's fault', they're going to be ploughing a very fertile furrow for a long time following L&K
    Even if the model is just being boring and Brexit Without Being A Dick About It, I'd expect that to perk up the prospects for business a fair bit. (At the moment, anything that looks like SM/CU would probably trigger too many voters for it to be politically prudent, but given how things are going that may change enough by 2024.)

    In the same way that making a Bake Off Showstopper is hard, but the UK's current situation is like trying to do that on a bouncy castle where Matt and Noel are bouncing away in the corner.
    The polling on Brexit is only going one way, and it’s been given further toxicity by its close association with this government. I think there’s an opportunity to present a package that includes rejoining the single market alongside some measures to prevent day one benefit claims, which was always the biggest problem with FOM.

    And of course the fact that this government’s immigration policies are a complete mess will also help sell the case.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    edited October 2022
    HYUFD said:

    StuartDickson said:

    HYUFD said:

    StuartDickson said:

    PB favourite Prof John Curtice:

    On how the waves from Westminster have washed over @ScotTories but left @TheSNP citadel untouched.

    https://twitter.com/whatscotsthink/status/1577937980756467712?s=46&t=ZufN8YAs4WTmrmQybO-kUw

    If Labour win a UK majority they can ignore the SNP anyway
    You’ll be voting Labour yourself then?
    If I was in an SNP SLAB marginal yes
    All talk no action. You cheer on Lab Maj to kill Scottish self-governance, but you are not actually prepared to vote for your longed-for outcome.

    Even your limited Labour vote criterion - “if I was in an SNP SLAB marginal yes“ - is meaningless. There are no SNP/Lab marginals in the whole country.

    There are 2 Alba/Lab marginals where you could vote for the Red Tory option:

    - Kirkcaldy & Cowdenbeath
    - East Lothian Coast

    … but the nearest thing to an SNP/Lab marginal is Coatbridge & Bellshill, where the SNP have a majority of 5,266.

    Shall we have a whip-round and assist Mini Franco in his flit to Gartcosh? He might learn a few home truths.
  • eekeek Posts: 27,481
    williamglenn said:

    Is Elon Musk heading for financial trouble due to the war in Ukraine or something?

    @KyivPost
    The @elonmusk situation is clearly getting out of hand, and it seems like pride and vanity play a behemoth role in his attempt to pose as an expert on #Ukraine.

    Just stop, Elon. It's ok to admit that you overdid smth. Just stop.

    ------

    @elonmusk replying to @KyivPost
    I’m a big fan of Ukraine, but not of WW3

    https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1578041621093949440

    ElonMusk has a problem

    He needs to find $44bn to purchase Twitter but some of the firms that were backing him have found valid reasons to pull out.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 36,759
    OldKingCole said:

    DecrepiterJohnL said:

    JosiasJessop said:

    Scott_xP said:

    This is @KwasiKwarteng in the Commons a year ago: "There is absolutely no question of the lights going out or people being unable to heat their homes. There will be no 3-day working weeks or a throwback to the 1970s. Such thinking is alarmist, unhelpful and completely misguided."

    https://twitter.com/cathynewman/status/1578038946998931456

    In normal times he'd be right. The Ukraine crisis could not really have been expected; and if you had expected it, you would have got odds against it going the way it has (i.e. if Ukraine not 'winning', then Russia certainly losing).

    That's a particularly twattish tweet.
    Why was Kwasi ruling out power cuts if there was no prospect of them? What was the context? There must have been some chance, otherwise it would be as pointless as Ben Wallace standing up and saying there is no risk of invasion by Antarctica.
    You obviously haven't seen the Orcas on Frozen Planet II! Nasty lot, with a lot more discipline and organisation, it would appear, than the Russians!
    Orcas and chimps are probably on a par with humans, in terms of cruelty.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,500
    Richard_Nabavi said:

    MaxPB said:


    Labour needs a big beast like Ed Balls in the Treasury to win and keep market confidence. Someone who won't be afraid of making tough choices and cutting spending or raising taxes on protected groups like pensioners and, sadly for me, homeowners who do get pretty lightly taxed.

    Ed Balls would be great, but that's not very likely. It is true that the Labour front bench still looks lightweight. Rachel Reeves is OKish. At least Starmer corrected his bizarre blunder of appointing Anneliese Dodds as Shadow Chancellor, although it took him too long to correct it.
    When Ed Balls was in the Treasury he was awful. All he did was misrepresent the economic situation. He seems a reformed man now though.

    Reeves really is quite good.

    Dodds really wasn't.
  • eekeek Posts: 27,481
    https://twitter.com/sallygainsbury/status/1578042337485148161

    Sally Gainsbury
    @sallygainsbury
    NHS England finance dir has just given a verbal report to the board outlining a £14bn+ funding gap in the NHS plan by 2025. Stated there's now real questions now over whether commitments on cancer, mental health and more are affordable within the current spending envelope >>
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,368
    Starmer has found his confidence and his voice just at the right time.
  • Alphabet_SoupAlphabet_Soup Posts: 3,039
    Roger said:

    Richard_Nabavi said:

    Labour have been given an extraordinary free gift by Truss and Kwarteng. They now have the opportunity to spend the next couple of years hammering home the message that Labour is now the pro-business party of fiscal responsibility, of stability, of investment, of better relations with our main market, of lower interest rates, of a more stable currency, and therefore of growth. The message will be even more effective because it will be true, relatively at least. Combined with their long-standing political advantage of being seen as better at looking after ordinary people and providing better public services, it's a tremendous election-winning platform if they use it well. The indications are that they understand this and won't screw it up.

    Conversely the Tories will be blamed for everything that goes badly in the economy, which will be a lot, some of it not even their fault.

    I don't think I've ever seen a party throw away its principal political advantage in the way that the Tories have done in the last few weeks. Boris had already tarnished the brand, but Truss and Kwarteng have totally Ratnered it.

    To relinquish the centre ground completely and deliberately must be the greatest act of political folly since Labour elected Corbyn. What makes UK political parties behave in such an irrational way?

    Incidentally I saw my first Banque Alimentaire in Nice today so it's not only a UK phenomenon
    Is that the new name for Crédit Agricole?
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,362
    BREAKING: Baroness Doreen Lawrence, Prince Harry, Sir Elton John and David Furnish, Elizabeth Hurley and Sadie Frost are all suing Associated Newspapers #DailyMail #MailonSunday #Mailonline accusing them of "abhorrent criminal activity and gross breaches of privacy"
    https://twitter.com/BeccaBarry/status/1578048532191264778
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 41,476
    DecrepiterJohnL said:

    JosiasJessop said:

    Scott_xP said:

    This is @KwasiKwarteng in the Commons a year ago: "There is absolutely no question of the lights going out or people being unable to heat their homes. There will be no 3-day working weeks or a throwback to the 1970s. Such thinking is alarmist, unhelpful and completely misguided."

    https://twitter.com/cathynewman/status/1578038946998931456

    In normal times he'd be right. The Ukraine crisis could not really have been expected; and if you had expected it, you would have got odds against it going the way it has (i.e. if Ukraine not 'winning', then Russia certainly losing).

    That's a particularly twattish tweet.
    Why was Kwasi ruling out power cuts if there was no prospect of them? What was the context? There must have been some chance, otherwise it would be as pointless as Ben Wallace standing up and saying there is no risk of invasion by Antarctica.
    We've been talking about power cuts or brown-outs on here for years - I had a discussion with RCS on them in about 2013, and he predicted the future better than I did. ;)

    But from the quote, it's clear he was talking about the chaos of the 1970s, when there were powercuts. ISTR the three-day week was introduced specifically to reduce power usage?
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    edited October 2022
    bondegezou said:

    HYUFD said:

    StuartDickson said:

    PB favourite Prof John Curtice:

    On how the waves from Westminster have washed over @ScotTories but left @TheSNP citadel untouched.

    https://twitter.com/whatscotsthink/status/1577937980756467712?s=46&t=ZufN8YAs4WTmrmQybO-kUw

    If Labour win a UK majority they can ignore the SNP anyway
    Although harder to ignore the SNP if they’re the Official Opposition, the Tories having been wiped out!

    Indeed.

    The Scotsman publishes a seat projection for Westminster, which shows that the SNP would be His Majesty’s Official Opposition:

    Labour 519 seats
    Scottish National Party 53 seats
    Conservatives 37 seats
    Liberal Democrats 17 seats

    (Based on the two latest Savanta ComRes polls: UK and Scottish)

    https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/scottish-tories-heading-for-total-wipeout-as-labour-gains-exclusive-poll-shows-3869122
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,379
    eek said:

    turbotubbs said:

    Scott_xP said:

    This is @KwasiKwarteng in the Commons a year ago: "There is absolutely no question of the lights going out or people being unable to heat their homes. There will be no 3-day working weeks or a throwback to the 1970s. Such thinking is alarmist, unhelpful and completely misguided."

    https://twitter.com/cathynewman/status/1578038946998931456

    A year ago, so before the war in Ukraine and the downstream effects of that? What's your point?
    There is going to be a video that can be used when the time is right for maximum point scoring.
    Going to be hard to watch if there's no electricity.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,051
    JosiasJessop said:

    DecrepiterJohnL said:

    JosiasJessop said:

    Scott_xP said:

    This is @KwasiKwarteng in the Commons a year ago: "There is absolutely no question of the lights going out or people being unable to heat their homes. There will be no 3-day working weeks or a throwback to the 1970s. Such thinking is alarmist, unhelpful and completely misguided."

    https://twitter.com/cathynewman/status/1578038946998931456

    In normal times he'd be right. The Ukraine crisis could not really have been expected; and if you had expected it, you would have got odds against it going the way it has (i.e. if Ukraine not 'winning', then Russia certainly losing).

    That's a particularly twattish tweet.
    Why was Kwasi ruling out power cuts if there was no prospect of them? What was the context? There must have been some chance, otherwise it would be as pointless as Ben Wallace standing up and saying there is no risk of invasion by Antarctica.
    We've been talking about power cuts or brown-outs on here for years - I had a discussion with RCS on them in about 2013, and he predicted the future better than I did. ;)

    But from the quote, it's clear he was talking about the chaos of the 1970s, when there were powercuts. ISTR the three-day week was introduced specifically to reduce power usage?
    By a Conservative government no less. Who had picked a fight they didn't need to!
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,517
    Tomorrow - Driving a Porche Cayman, then Formula Renault and then 1 lap of having the willies scared out of me by one of the Stig's many cousins.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    ThomasNashe said:

    StuartDickson said:

    The biggest hinder to growth is Brexit, which Keir Starmer and Labour support.

    Yes, he’s now got an opportunity to campaign on a return to the single market. The case is overwhelming.
    He’s too timid. He’s frightened of his own shadow.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,051
    Benpointer said:

    eek said:

    turbotubbs said:

    Scott_xP said:

    This is @KwasiKwarteng in the Commons a year ago: "There is absolutely no question of the lights going out or people being unable to heat their homes. There will be no 3-day working weeks or a throwback to the 1970s. Such thinking is alarmist, unhelpful and completely misguided."

    https://twitter.com/cathynewman/status/1578038946998931456

    A year ago, so before the war in Ukraine and the downstream effects of that? What's your point?
    There is going to be a video that can be used when the time is right for maximum point scoring.
    Going to be hard to watch if there's no electricity.
    Haven't you watched the Pakistan V England cricket? They were advertising a pedal powered electric washing machine.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    Richard_Nabavi said:

    MaxPB said:


    Labour needs a big beast like Ed Balls in the Treasury to win and keep market confidence. Someone who won't be afraid of making tough choices and cutting spending or raising taxes on protected groups like pensioners and, sadly for me, homeowners who do get pretty lightly taxed.

    Ed Balls would be great, but that's not very likely. It is true that the Labour front bench still looks lightweight. Rachel Reeves is OKish. At least Starmer corrected his bizarre blunder of appointing Anneliese Dodds as Shadow Chancellor, although it took him too long to correct it.
    The House Jock blunder.

    Clue: Gordon Brown is behind most Labour nincompoopery.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,160
    I think whoever wins the next election will have to grasp the nettle of DB pensions. It will be unpopular among those who believe they "have worked hard all their lives" but then again we can't bankrupt the nation to pander to a small group of already pretty well of people. Just as the WASPI women felt hard done by because a historical wrong was righted, DB pensioners will also feel hard done by because the government and industry made promises they couldn't keep 40 years ago on retirement income.

    The next party in power will need to close all DB pension schemes and come up with a fairish formula for converting existing DB pensions to DC based on the asset levels within those DB pension schemes. Though I have no idea how that works in practice given that DB schemes are non-contributory.

    Simply, neither the state nor private industry can afford to pay retirees 50-80% of their final salary until the day they die along with everything else and for industry continuing to invest in the business.

    Ultimately, we need a government who is willing to tell 60+ people that things are going to be a lot more difficult and they'll need to work to 70+ if they want to keep their existing lifestyle because the nation can't afford to fund it.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,362
    Labour leads by 28%, tied largest lead for them that we've EVER recorded.

    Westminster Voting Intention (5 Oct.):

    Labour 52% (–)
    Conservative 24% (–)
    Liberal Democrat 10% (–)
    Green 5% (–)
    SNP 4% (-1)
    Reform UK 3% (–)
    Other 1% (–)

    Changes +/- 2 Oct.

    https://redfieldandwiltonstrategies.com/magnified-email/issue-52 https://twitter.com/RedfieldWilton/status/1578052464024162304/photo/1
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,465
    We need a post-Liz speech poll to get a tentative final picture of the overall conference season impact...
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 36,759
    MaxPB said:

    I think whoever wins the next election will have to grasp the nettle of DB pensions. It will be unpopular among those who believe they "have worked hard all their lives" but then again we can't bankrupt the nation to pander to a small group of already pretty well of people. Just as the WASPI women felt hard done by because a historical wrong was righted, DB pensioners will also feel hard done by because the government and industry made promises they couldn't keep 40 years ago on retirement income.

    The next party in power will need to close all DB pension schemes and come up with a fairish formula for converting existing DB pensions to DC based on the asset levels within those DB pension schemes. Though I have no idea how that works in practice given that DB schemes are non-contributory.

    Simply, neither the state nor private industry can afford to pay retirees 50-80% of their final salary until the day they die along with everything else and for industry continuing to invest in the business.

    Ultimately, we need a government who is willing to tell 60+ people that things are going to be a lot more difficult and they'll need to work to 70+ if they want to keep their existing lifestyle because the nation can't afford to fund it.

    That is fair enough.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    There is a remarkable absence of “house effects” in the 3 Scottish polls published yesterday and today. Usually, one would expect a little variation due to methodology and sampling, but the bands are notably narrow, perhaps indicating that they are “correct”?

    SNP 44%, 45% and 46%
    SLab 30%, 31% and 31%
    SCon 12%, 15% and 15%
    SLD 6%, 7% and 8%

    (Survation, Savanta ComRes and YouGov)

    They are also roughly in line with recent subsamples.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,272
    Shocking story from Thailand.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,362
    Wow = Liz Truss moves to net MINUS 44% approval ratings in latest @RedfieldWilton poll

    https://twitter.com/MSmithsonPB/status/1578053353942171648
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 21,456
    I'm bemused by the notion that Starmer is saying he's going to reverse this budget.

    Of course the 45p has already been dropped so can't be reversed.

    The energy support will be done, and was wanted, so can't be reversed.

    The cut in National Insurance he's saying he'll keep.

    So what exactly does he propose to reverse?

    Not that things like facts will bother his fans.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    edited October 2022
    Scott_xP said:

    Wow = Liz Truss moves to net MINUS 44% approval ratings in latest @RedfieldWilton poll

    https://twitter.com/MSmithsonPB/status/1578053353942171648

    -52 in Scotland

    Ya dancer!

    -45 in South West England

    Canada incoming!
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 6,521
    Scott_xP said:

    Wow = Liz Truss moves to net MINUS 44% approval ratings in latest @RedfieldWilton poll

    https://twitter.com/MSmithsonPB/status/1578053353942171648

    Toast (I hope).
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 53,336
    edited October 2022
    williamglenn said:

    Is Elon Musk heading for financial trouble due to the war in Ukraine or something?

    @KyivPost
    The @elonmusk situation is clearly getting out of hand, and it seems like pride and vanity play a behemoth role in his attempt to pose as an expert on #Ukraine.

    Just stop, Elon. It's ok to admit that you overdid smth. Just stop.

    ------

    @elonmusk replying to @KyivPost
    I’m a big fan of Ukraine, but not of WW3

    https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1578041621093949440

    To be fair to him (yes, I know), the “Ukraine should sue for peace now, to avoid a nuclear war” idea, is quite a common sentiment among Americans of all political hues. Americans, who of course have nothing to lose from the situation unless it escalates.

    Here’s an example of a discussion on the subject, from two people of opposing political views, not supporting Musk per se, but supporting the idea that the Ukranians are only winning because of the US support, and that it’s no longer in the US interest to keep doing so if Putin is threatening the nuclear option.
    https://youtube.com/watch?v=x5bs1Rpg6eo (Breaking Points)
  • RazedabodeRazedabode Posts: 3,023
    eek said:

    https://twitter.com/sallygainsbury/status/1578042337485148161

    Sally Gainsbury
    @sallygainsbury
    NHS England finance dir has just given a verbal report to the board outlining a £14bn+ funding gap in the NHS plan by 2025. Stated there's now real questions now over whether commitments on cancer, mental health and more are affordable within the current spending envelope >>

    Stop scare mongering, we all know growth growth growth will solve it
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,051
    dixiedean said:

    Shocking story from Thailand.

    Absolutely dreadful!
  • eekeek Posts: 27,481
    StuartDickson said:

    ThomasNashe said:

    StuartDickson said:

    The biggest hinder to growth is Brexit, which Keir Starmer and Labour support.

    Yes, he’s now got an opportunity to campaign on a return to the single market. The case is overwhelming.
    He’s too timid. He’s frightened of his own shadow.
    It's a risk too far and would give something for the tories to campaign against.

    Best to place it to one side and not risk losing a very winnable election.

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 94,977
    The particular attacks on Labour remind me of Goldsmith's attempts to paint Khan as a dangerous friend of extremists. Like Khan or not it was just not credible for most people, and Starmer just doesn't seem anti-growth in the sense of being some radical. Whether his plans are that different to the government, or if his are terrible too, are somewhat behidn the point, if people do not fear him compared to the alternative.
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 5,907
    Starmer calling it the kamikaze budget . I think that’s a good term and gets to the point .

  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 53,336
    edited October 2022
    kjh said:

    Tomorrow - Driving a Porche Cayman, then Formula Renault and then 1 lap of having the willies scared out of me by one of the Stig's many cousins.

    Enjoy! The formula car will scare the bejeesus out of you, it’s so much faster than any frame of reference you might have, especially on the brakes and in the corners. Passenger rides are always fun, especially at the end of the day, when you realise just how much faster you could have gone!
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    eek said:

    StuartDickson said:

    ThomasNashe said:

    StuartDickson said:

    The biggest hinder to growth is Brexit, which Keir Starmer and Labour support.

    Yes, he’s now got an opportunity to campaign on a return to the single market. The case is overwhelming.
    He’s too timid. He’s frightened of his own shadow.
    It's a risk too far and would give something for the tories to campaign against.

    Best to place it to one side and not risk losing a very winnable election.

    No point in winning an election if you are just going to persist with your opponent’s worst polices.
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 6,521
    How long does this poll plummet have to last to persuade the Tories that there is no coming back for them under Liz Truss? You don’t recover from figures like this. The die is cast.

    She is toxic, probably more so than any other PM in living memory.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,051
    eek said:

    StuartDickson said:

    ThomasNashe said:

    StuartDickson said:

    The biggest hinder to growth is Brexit, which Keir Starmer and Labour support.

    Yes, he’s now got an opportunity to campaign on a return to the single market. The case is overwhelming.
    He’s too timid. He’s frightened of his own shadow.
    It's a risk too far and would give something for the tories to campaign against.

    Best to place it to one side and not risk losing a very winnable election.

    'Liked', but with a heavy heart. Recognising the realities of the situation.

    But oh how I hope to see us return to the EU before I die!
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    numbertwelve said:

    How long does this poll plummet have to last to persuade the Tories that there is no coming back for them under Liz Truss? You don’t recover from figures like this. The die is cast.

    She is toxic, probably more so than any other PM in living memory.

    Not long.

    The Tories have a deep self-preservation instinct. She’ll be history by Easter.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 94,977
    Sandpit said:

    williamglenn said:

    Is Elon Musk heading for financial trouble due to the war in Ukraine or something?

    @KyivPost
    The @elonmusk situation is clearly getting out of hand, and it seems like pride and vanity play a behemoth role in his attempt to pose as an expert on #Ukraine.

    Just stop, Elon. It's ok to admit that you overdid smth. Just stop.

    ------

    @elonmusk replying to @KyivPost
    I’m a big fan of Ukraine, but not of WW3

    https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1578041621093949440

    To be fair to him (yes, I know), the “Ukraine should sue for peace now, to avoid a nuclear war” idea, is quite a common among Americans of all political hues. Americans, who of course have nothing to lose from the situation unless it escalates.

    Here’s an example of a discussion on the subject, from two people of opposing political views, not supporting Musk per se, but supporting the idea that the Ukranians are only winning because of the US support, and that it’s no longer in the US interest to keep doing so if Putin is threatening the nuclear option.
    https://youtube.com/watch?v=x5bs1Rpg6eo (Breaking Points)
    If he'd stuck to that, sure, but he seems to be impossibly pig headed on every subject in the world and cannot help but think he is an expert on everything.

    Good for a pundit, or someone willing to take big risks to innvoate, but not so much for anyone wanting to be taken seriously.

    He also seems to have incredibly thin skin, so is easily goaded into doubling down even on stupid points because he cannot accept criticism, at least in the public sphere.
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,256
    Razedabode said:

    eek said:

    https://twitter.com/sallygainsbury/status/1578042337485148161

    Sally Gainsbury
    @sallygainsbury
    NHS England finance dir has just given a verbal report to the board outlining a £14bn+ funding gap in the NHS plan by 2025. Stated there's now real questions now over whether commitments on cancer, mental health and more are affordable within the current spending envelope >>

    Stop scare mongering, we all know growth growth growth will solve it
    Wrong, Wrong, Wrong!
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 94,977
    numbertwelve said:

    How long does this poll plummet have to last to persuade the Tories that there is no coming back for them under Liz Truss? You don’t recover from figures like this. The die is cast.

    She is toxic, probably more so than any other PM in living memory.

    I agree you don't recover from this level. Many of them are probably already persuaded, but see no path to move forward. She's been in office a month, clearly backed by members and the main alternative is a reversion to someone so unfit for office even the MPs could not pretend otherwise anymore.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    Beibheirli_C said:

    Scott_xP said:

    BREAKING: Baroness Doreen Lawrence, Prince Harry, Sir Elton John and David Furnish, Elizabeth Hurley and Sadie Frost are all suing Associated Newspapers #DailyMail #MailonSunday #Mailonline accusing them of "abhorrent criminal activity and gross breaches of privacy"
    https://twitter.com/BeccaBarry/status/1578048532191264778

    Let us hope they win and bankrupt that dreadful rag.
    Supporting the Nazis ought to have been the last drop.

    - “When Adolf Hitler entered the Reich Chancellery on January 30, 1933, the cheers of the Nazi stormtroopers in Berlin were echoed in Northcliffe House, the home of Britain’s then highest-selling newspaper.”

    https://www.timesofisrael.com/how-britains-nazi-loving-press-baron-made-the-case-for-hitler/
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 94,977
    Beibheirli_C said:

    Scott_xP said:

    BREAKING: Baroness Doreen Lawrence, Prince Harry, Sir Elton John and David Furnish, Elizabeth Hurley and Sadie Frost are all suing Associated Newspapers #DailyMail #MailonSunday #Mailonline accusing them of "abhorrent criminal activity and gross breaches of privacy"
    https://twitter.com/BeccaBarry/status/1578048532191264778

    Let us hope they win and bankrupt that dreadful rag.
    I assume whether they are guilty remains relevant here.
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,256
    Beibheirli_C said:

    Scott_xP said:

    BREAKING: Baroness Doreen Lawrence, Prince Harry, Sir Elton John and David Furnish, Elizabeth Hurley and Sadie Frost are all suing Associated Newspapers #DailyMail #MailonSunday #Mailonline accusing them of "abhorrent criminal activity and gross breaches of privacy"
    https://twitter.com/BeccaBarry/status/1578048532191264778

    Let us hope they win and bankrupt that dreadful rag.
    The closure of The Daily Mail would of itself be a boost to growth.
  • northern_monkeynorthern_monkey Posts: 1,639
    Isn’t Brexit stopping something that has brought many people to Leeds for years - I’ve had some great times there thanks to the gluhwein - anti-growth?


  • darkagedarkage Posts: 5,215
    Sean_F said:

    MaxPB said:

    I think whoever wins the next election will have to grasp the nettle of DB pensions. It will be unpopular among those who believe they "have worked hard all their lives" but then again we can't bankrupt the nation to pander to a small group of already pretty well of people. Just as the WASPI women felt hard done by because a historical wrong was righted, DB pensioners will also feel hard done by because the government and industry made promises they couldn't keep 40 years ago on retirement income.

    The next party in power will need to close all DB pension schemes and come up with a fairish formula for converting existing DB pensions to DC based on the asset levels within those DB pension schemes. Though I have no idea how that works in practice given that DB schemes are non-contributory.

    Simply, neither the state nor private industry can afford to pay retirees 50-80% of their final salary until the day they die along with everything else and for industry continuing to invest in the business.

    Ultimately, we need a government who is willing to tell 60+ people that things are going to be a lot more difficult and they'll need to work to 70+ if they want to keep their existing lifestyle because the nation can't afford to fund it.

    That is fair enough.
    I have a DB pension but decided to change to paying in to a SIPP going forward. This is because I worked out that there is a high risk that the DB pension will never see the light of day, as it will be subject to the type of interference suggested above at some point in the next 20-30 years.
    A lot of people stay in jobs for there for their whole careers because they are relying on the pension materialising but it is not a safe assumption, particularly in the public sector.

  • nico679nico679 Posts: 5,907
    northern_monkey said:

    Isn’t Brexit stopping something that has brought many people to Leeds for years - I’ve had some great times there thanks to the gluhwein - anti-growth?


    Sadly the Brexit cultural vandalism continues.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,229

    New Thread, And So Soon!

This discussion has been closed.