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The general election betting moves to LAB since the arrival of Truss – politicalbetting.com

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  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 42,433
    boulay said:

    boulay said:

    boulay said:

    Forgive me for being an absolute idiot but in floodplains why don’t they build houses on stilts and give everyone a fan-boat?

    Apparently there are parts of the world people live in that are quite waterlogged and they cope.

    Most of those places don't worry about things like sewerage systems. Not sure it is a model we should be following.
    Ok - but there are enough bright people surely to design housing areas where the sewerage is buried and the houses are raised - if you live in an area that gets massively flooded I’m assuming the worst thing is that all your possessions, the electrics etc get buggered by the flooding.

    If you have a house on stilts then the horrors are at least massively reduced to your possessions.

    With all the technology and experience in the world surely it’s not above engineers and architects to design buildings and infrastructure that mitigates against the worst of flooding and frees up land rather than just saying “it’s a bit difficult so let’s not bother”?

    Just to Edit, Richard I believe you work in the oil industry - people didn’t just say “shot the oil is under the sea bed” they worked out how to make pipes and tubes and drills and platforms to get to it - you of all people could work out how to build such areas?
    I agree. It is possible. But it is expensive. Actually, in flood areas it is easier to follow the old traditions. Stone flagged floors, no plaster or paper on walls and all furniture removable to upper storeys. You see this in some towns in the lake district. When the floods arrive you open all the doors and let
    the water flow through. The trouble is that these houses have now been bought by
    people who want to put carpets and laminate flooring down and have fitted
    kitchens.

    This sort of goes back to the whole pre-fab situation (the answer IMHO to a lot of probs) that if there was a set of solutions with equipment made for it and houses, sewage pipes, waterproofed utilities, standardised designs etc etc then you could open up huge areas of land for housing.

    I imagine the first oil rig in the North Sea effectively cost a fortune but every one afterwards cost less because you standardise the structure and materials and plant them.

    A company that, and maybe an offshoot from the oil rig making industry. Could pre-pack the utilities and the structures married with a Huff-house type company would be able to build huge amounts of housing on otherwise tricky land. Also would create, I hope, lots of jobs in the pre-packed housing industry in the UK. Maybe that’s ridiculous…
    Yes, pre-fab houses are definitely part of the solution, as they were after WWII. There’s several companies out there now building them, and it will quickly become a lot more efficient than to build on site, especially as building codes become ever-more complicated. IIRC, a 2,000 sq ft 3-bed house comes in at £100k or so, plus the land and land works.

    The biggest challenge is to make sure that they have sufficient support from the supplying company and the banking industry, so that buyers can get standard mortgages on them. Government has a role to play here, in certifying standards and setting up a support fund.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 72,850
    Straight skyward contrail near St Petersburg...
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 2,347
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Chris said:

    HYUFD said:

    Labour confirms it would reverse Kwarteng's top rate of tax cuts if elected at the next general election

    https://twitter.com/KarlTurnerMP/status/1573593107366559747?s=20&t=0ELUvCsWnnPprW8iqRaavA

    They've fallen into the cunning trap designed to decimate their support among the ultra-high earners,
    Though a few seats with ultra high earners like Cities of London and Westminster and Kensington are Labour target seats at the next general election
    Lose the RedWall regain Mayfair?
    Lose the Redwall but regain Mayfair and Chesham and Amersham and hold Surrey seems to be the Truss and Kwarteng strategy
    I realised you were worried about Conservative prospects at the next election when you admitted you were forsaking Epping Forest for a safer seat!
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 9,025

    https://twitter.com/OpiniumResearch/status/1573749108543627269?t=tjb0tSUEWiM7f84EeTodNg&s=19

    Opinium very cleverly leaving out 'reduce taxes and retain current levels of public spending'

    19% actually want taxes and services cut, those who want more spending from more tax isn’t far ahead
  • IshmaelZ said:

    Dynamo said:

    Sandpit said:

    When do we think it's going to start getting properly cold? I see a few 15 degree high days coming up but they're few and far between.

    Its already cold enough that heating set to minimum levels will start kicking in at times. Proper cold any time from November?
    My heating isn't yet on at all.
    we've had heating on for about 1 hour this month. just got my last bill and we used £14.32 in gas last month. with the £400 rebate our bill will be about £5.60 per month october to march. crazy. Stepdaughter and her 3 children live in a colder house and seem addicted to doing laundry and using the tumble drier so they can have our £400.
    Tumble dryers should be high on the list for the public information campaign - they use an inordinate amount of electricity, more than any other single appliance. After turning down the room temperature, avoiding the tumble dryer is the single best thing you can do to reduce the winter bills.
    What is the point in a tumble dryer? Can't you just stick your clothes up around the house or buy a heated drying rack like I've got. Never seen the point in owning one.
    Kids.

    As a young adult I was very happy to use drying racks or radiators etc for mine and then my wife's clothes.

    But with a family, doing a family's load of laundry, tumble dryers are a blessing.

    Especially since cleaning a house with a couple of young kids is in itself much more of a chore, without even thinking about laundry it's like running on a treadmill just to stand still so anything that helps like dryers are very useful, especially in winter.
    Is "drying rack" what posh people call a clothes horse?

    The best place to hang wet clothes if you cannot afford to run radiators is on a clothes horse in front of a coal fire or an open oven door. You will be using the gas oven for heating anyway if you haven't got a coal fire or if you can only afford to heat one room, in which case it should be the kitchen for obvious reasons.
    Other way round, actually. Anything with horse in it is posh.
    Best thing is a Dutch dryer. We use it all the time
    That is to say wooden slats on a pulley system suspended using a rope
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 42,433

    Happened to catch a story on NHK World a few weeks ago about a Japanese experiment in putting solar panels over parking lots. Done right, you could provide protection from the weather for the cars and drivers, and get some power as a bonus.

    If there is a flaw in the idea, I don't see it.

    Standard in my part of the world in the past five years or so, as the panels have got cheaper.

    https://www.springwise.com/innovation/mobility-transport/dubai-car-park-solar-panels/
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 9,025

    IshmaelZ said:

    Dynamo said:

    Sandpit said:

    When do we think it's going to start getting properly cold? I see a few 15 degree high days coming up but they're few and far between.

    Its already cold enough that heating set to minimum levels will start kicking in at times. Proper cold any time from November?
    My heating isn't yet on at all.
    we've had heating on for about 1 hour this month. just got my last bill and we used £14.32 in gas last month. with the £400 rebate our bill will be about £5.60 per month october to march. crazy. Stepdaughter and her 3 children live in a colder house and seem addicted to doing laundry and using the tumble drier so they can have our £400.
    Tumble dryers should be high on the list for the public information campaign - they use an inordinate amount of electricity, more than any other single appliance. After turning down the room temperature, avoiding the tumble dryer is the single best thing you can do to reduce the winter bills.
    What is the point in a tumble dryer? Can't you just stick your clothes up around the house or buy a heated drying rack like I've got. Never seen the point in owning one.
    Kids.

    As a young adult I was very happy to use drying racks or radiators etc for mine and then my wife's clothes.

    But with a family, doing a family's load of laundry, tumble dryers are a blessing.

    Especially since cleaning a house with a couple of young kids is in itself much more of a chore, without even thinking about laundry it's like running on a treadmill just to stand still so anything that helps like dryers are very useful, especially in winter.
    Is "drying rack" what posh people call a clothes horse?

    The best place to hang wet clothes if you cannot afford to run radiators is on a clothes horse in front of a coal fire or an open oven door. You will be using the gas oven for heating anyway if you haven't got a coal fire or if you can only afford to heat one room, in which case it should be the kitchen for obvious reasons.
    Other way round, actually. Anything with horse in it is posh.
    Best thing is a Dutch dryer. We use it all the time
    I looked at them. I didn’t like the idea of standing there with my thumb in a hole to stop the water coming out.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 5,590
    Sandpit said:

    boulay said:

    boulay said:

    boulay said:

    Forgive me for being an absolute idiot but in floodplains why don’t they build houses on stilts and give everyone a fan-boat?

    Apparently there are parts of the world people live in that are quite waterlogged and they cope.

    Most of those places don't worry about things like sewerage systems. Not sure it is a model we should be following.
    Ok - but there are enough bright people surely to design housing areas where the sewerage is buried and the houses are raised - if you live in an area that gets massively flooded I’m assuming the worst thing is that all your possessions, the electrics etc get buggered by the flooding.

    If you have a house on stilts then the horrors are at least massively reduced to your possessions.

    With all the technology and experience in the world surely it’s not above engineers and architects to design buildings and infrastructure that mitigates against the worst of flooding and frees up land rather than just saying “it’s a bit difficult so let’s not bother”?

    Just to Edit, Richard I believe you work in the oil industry - people didn’t just say “shot the oil is under the sea bed” they worked out how to make pipes and tubes and drills and platforms to get to it - you of all people could work out how to build such areas?
    I agree. It is possible. But it is expensive. Actually, in flood areas it is easier to follow the old traditions. Stone flagged floors, no plaster or paper on walls and all furniture removable to upper storeys. You see this in some towns in the lake district. When the floods arrive you open all the doors and let
    the water flow through. The trouble is that these houses have now been bought by
    people who want to put carpets and laminate flooring down and have fitted
    kitchens.

    This sort of goes back to the whole pre-fab situation (the answer IMHO to a lot of probs) that if there was a set of solutions with equipment made for it and houses, sewage pipes, waterproofed utilities, standardised designs etc etc then you could open up huge areas of land for housing.

    I imagine the first oil rig in the North Sea effectively cost a fortune but every one afterwards cost less because you standardise the structure and materials and plant them.

    A company that, and maybe an offshoot from the oil rig making industry. Could pre-pack the utilities and the structures married with a Huff-house type company would be able to build huge amounts of housing on otherwise tricky land. Also would create, I hope, lots of jobs in the pre-packed housing industry in the UK. Maybe that’s ridiculous…
    Yes, pre-fab houses are definitely part of the solution, as they were after WWII. There’s several companies out there now building them, and it will quickly become a lot more efficient than to build on site, especially as building codes become ever-more complicated. IIRC, a 2,000 sq ft 3-bed house comes in at £100k or so, plus the land and land works.

    The biggest challenge is to make sure that they have sufficient support from the supplying company and the banking industry, so that buyers can get standard mortgages on them. Government has a role to play here, in certifying standards and setting up a support fund.
    Perhaps we should also ask if maybe building regs have become stupidly strict? I am not claiming they have or not as not been involved with them for a long while but for example I believe dropping a new socket off a ring main it is now mandatory to get an electrician despite the stupidly easy nature of doing so. Something that I as a home owner in the nineties did on several occasions
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 107,077

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Chris said:

    HYUFD said:

    Labour confirms it would reverse Kwarteng's top rate of tax cuts if elected at the next general election

    https://twitter.com/KarlTurnerMP/status/1573593107366559747?s=20&t=0ELUvCsWnnPprW8iqRaavA

    They've fallen into the cunning trap designed to decimate their support among the ultra-high earners,
    Though a few seats with ultra high earners like Cities of London and Westminster and Kensington are Labour target seats at the next general election
    Lose the RedWall regain Mayfair?
    Lose the Redwall but regain Mayfair and Chesham and Amersham and hold Surrey seems to be the Truss and Kwarteng strategy
    I realised you were worried about Conservative prospects at the next election when you admitted you were forsaking Epping Forest for a safer seat!
    I will still be in Epping Forest District, just not Epping
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 2,347
    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Carnyx said:

    boulay said:

    Forgive me for being an absolute idiot but in floodplains why don’t they build houses on stilts and give everyone a fan-boat?

    Apparently there are parts of the world people live in that are quite waterlogged and they cope.

    Brave name for a development (next to the River Culm in Devon, as it happens), calling it Water Meadow: no idea of the actual flood risk.
    https://www.google.com/maps/@50.8514795,-3.3902935,3a,27.1y,133.17h,86.62t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1szmuyT0XvA3J54SC9yxMJRA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
    There's a new development outside Launceston called Kensey Valley Meadow, the Kensey being a river. Floods like fuck, and there is a sewage works in the floodplain.
    Dredge the river.
    Don’t be daft! Dead ducks are more important than dead humans.
    An entirely rubbish point, where do dead ducks come in to it?
    Ducks prefer undredged rivers.
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 2,347
    IshmaelZ said:

    Dynamo said:

    Sandpit said:

    When do we think it's going to start getting properly cold? I see a few 15 degree high days coming up but they're few and far between.

    Its already cold enough that heating set to minimum levels will start kicking in at times. Proper cold any time from November?
    My heating isn't yet on at all.
    we've had heating on for about 1 hour this month. just got my last bill and we used £14.32 in gas last month. with the £400 rebate our bill will be about £5.60 per month october to march. crazy. Stepdaughter and her 3 children live in a colder house and seem addicted to doing laundry and using the tumble drier so they can have our £400.
    Tumble dryers should be high on the list for the public information campaign - they use an inordinate amount of electricity, more than any other single appliance. After turning down the room temperature, avoiding the tumble dryer is the single best thing you can do to reduce the winter bills.
    What is the point in a tumble dryer? Can't you just stick your clothes up around the house or buy a heated drying rack like I've got. Never seen the point in owning one.
    Kids.

    As a young adult I was very happy to use drying racks or radiators etc for mine and then my wife's clothes.

    But with a family, doing a family's load of laundry, tumble dryers are a blessing.

    Especially since cleaning a house with a couple of young kids is in itself much more of a chore, without even thinking about laundry it's like running on a treadmill just to stand still so anything that helps like dryers are very useful, especially in winter.
    Is "drying rack" what posh people call a clothes horse?

    The best place to hang wet clothes if you cannot afford to run radiators is on a clothes horse in front of a coal fire or an open oven door. You will be using the gas oven for heating anyway if you haven't got a coal fire or if you can only afford to heat one room, in which case it should be the kitchen for obvious reasons.
    Other way round, actually. Anything with horse in it is posh.
    In Ayrshire we call clothes horses by their proper name - winterdykes.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 5,590

    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Carnyx said:

    boulay said:

    Forgive me for being an absolute idiot but in floodplains why don’t they build houses on stilts and give everyone a fan-boat?

    Apparently there are parts of the world people live in that are quite waterlogged and they cope.

    Brave name for a development (next to the River Culm in Devon, as it happens), calling it Water Meadow: no idea of the actual flood risk.
    https://www.google.com/maps/@50.8514795,-3.3902935,3a,27.1y,133.17h,86.62t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1szmuyT0XvA3J54SC9yxMJRA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
    There's a new development outside Launceston called Kensey Valley Meadow, the Kensey being a river. Floods like fuck, and there is a sewage works in the floodplain.
    Dredge the river.
    Don’t be daft! Dead ducks are more important than dead humans.
    An entirely rubbish point, where do dead ducks come in to it?
    Ducks prefer undredged rivers.
    Ducks are rapists par excellence...you want to advocate for rapists?
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 6,649
    Pulpstar said:

    Straight skyward contrail near St Petersburg...

    Best estimates seem to suggest mistakenly fired air defences
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 2,347
    edited September 2022


    I realised you were worried about Conservative prospects at the next election when you admitted you were forsaking Epping Forest for a safer seat!

    I will still be in Epping Forest District, just not Epping

    I thought you were escaping to Brentwood and Ongar?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 46,992

    If there wasn't enough going on #chinacoup is trending on twitter.

    Just a storm in a teacup ?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 42,433
    edited September 2022

    Pulpstar said:

    Straight skyward contrail near St Petersburg...

    Best estimates seem to suggest mistakenly fired air defences
    Would be a shame if they were to keep doing that!

    Russian air defences are bloody big and expensive rockets, and they don’t have a lot of the more modern versions.

    https://nationalinterest.org/blog/reboot/russias-s-300-provided-capable-air-defense-s-400-system-world-class-178563
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 2,819
    edited September 2022

    Pulpstar said:

    Straight skyward contrail near St Petersburg...

    Best estimates seem to suggest mistakenly fired air defences
    Any video of the launch? Because the images I can see look like normal contrails lit by the setting sun. Perspective can do strange things.

    The clue is that one of the trails appears to be going upwards but is in full sun at the 'bottom'. It must actually be stretching out towards sunset.
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 2,347
    Pagan2 said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Carnyx said:

    boulay said:

    Forgive me for being an absolute idiot but in floodplains why don’t they build houses on stilts and give everyone a fan-boat?

    Apparently there are parts of the world people live in that are quite waterlogged and they cope.

    Brave name for a development (next to the River Culm in Devon, as it happens), calling it Water Meadow: no idea of the actual flood risk.
    https://www.google.com/maps/@50.8514795,-3.3902935,3a,27.1y,133.17h,86.62t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1szmuyT0XvA3J54SC9yxMJRA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
    There's a new development outside Launceston called Kensey Valley Meadow, the Kensey being a river. Floods like fuck, and there is a sewage works in the floodplain.
    Dredge the river.
    Don’t be daft! Dead ducks are more important than dead humans.
    An entirely rubbish point, where do dead ducks come in to it?
    Ducks prefer undredged rivers.
    Ducks are rapists par excellence...you want to advocate for rapists?
    You’ve just goosed my comment.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 11,215

    If there wasn't enough going on #chinacoup is trending on twitter.

    I don't know about China, Mrs Stodge is in rebellious mood this evening.

    Having been temporarily placated by Kwarteng's comments on IR35 yesterday, she is enraged by the latest missive from British Gas with our near 35% increase in energy costs (gas and electricity). I pointed out two thirds of that will be picked off by the £400 Energy Bills Support Scheme.

    What ticks me off (and Mrs Stodge too) is while accepting the Unit Price of the product itself may have increased, the companies are pulling a fast one by jacking up the standing charges. Why should the standing charges increase? They should be held at current levels.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 107,077
    edited September 2022



    I realised you were worried about Conservative prospects at the next election when you admitted you were forsaking Epping Forest for a safer seat!

    'I will still be in Epping Forest District, just not Epping

    I thought you were escaping to Brentwood and Ongar?'

    It is Brentwood and Ongar constituency, Epping Forest District.

    Epping Forest constituency is mainly small towns like Epping and Chigwell and Waltham Abbey and Buckhurst Hill plus basically outer London suburbia like Loughton.

    Most of rural Epping Forest District eg around Ongar and North Weald, is in Brentwood and Ongar
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 5,590

    Pagan2 said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Carnyx said:

    boulay said:

    Forgive me for being an absolute idiot but in floodplains why don’t they build houses on stilts and give everyone a fan-boat?

    Apparently there are parts of the world people live in that are quite waterlogged and they cope.

    Brave name for a development (next to the River Culm in Devon, as it happens), calling it Water Meadow: no idea of the actual flood risk.
    https://www.google.com/maps/@50.8514795,-3.3902935,3a,27.1y,133.17h,86.62t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1szmuyT0XvA3J54SC9yxMJRA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
    There's a new development outside Launceston called Kensey Valley Meadow, the Kensey being a river. Floods like fuck, and there is a sewage works in the floodplain.
    Dredge the river.
    Don’t be daft! Dead ducks are more important than dead humans.
    An entirely rubbish point, where do dead ducks come in to it?
    Ducks prefer undredged rivers.
    Ducks are rapists par excellence...you want to advocate for rapists?
    You’ve just goosed my comment.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yVkQo9dqq9g
  • Pulpstar said:

    Straight skyward contrail near St Petersburg...

    What?
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 2,347
    stodge said:

    If there wasn't enough going on #chinacoup is trending on twitter.

    I don't know about China, Mrs Stodge is in rebellious mood this evening.

    Having been temporarily placated by Kwarteng's comments on IR35 yesterday, she is enraged by the latest missive from British Gas with our near 35% increase in energy costs (gas and electricity). I pointed out two thirds of that will be picked off by the £400 Energy Bills Support Scheme.

    What ticks me off (and Mrs Stodge too) is while accepting the Unit Price of the product itself may have increased, the companies are pulling a fast one by jacking up the standing charges. Why should the standing charges increase? They should be held at current levels.
    Profits, dear boy.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 5,590

    Pulpstar said:

    Straight skyward contrail near St Petersburg...

    What?
    Welcome to armageddon please put your head between someones knees and kiss their ass goodbye :)
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 1,458
    WSJ gives a cautious welcome to the Kwarteng plan:

    https://archive.ph/gTumT
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 1,458
    edited September 2022
    When the tide goes out etc…



    Edit: genuinely fascinating how much these differ
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 42,433
    stodge said:

    If there wasn't enough going on #chinacoup is trending on twitter.

    I don't know about China, Mrs Stodge is in rebellious mood this evening.

    Having been temporarily placated by Kwarteng's comments on IR35 yesterday, she is enraged by the latest missive from British Gas with our near 35% increase in energy costs (gas and electricity). I pointed out two thirds of that will be picked off by the £400 Energy Bills Support Scheme.

    What ticks me off (and Mrs Stodge too) is while accepting the Unit Price of the product itself may have increased, the companies are pulling a fast one by jacking up the standing charges. Why should the standing charges increase? They should be held at current levels.
    The standing charges increased as a result of the bailout scheme for failed suppliers in the past couple of years, which are being passed on as fixed costs to those remaining. Generally speaking, the standing charges cover the supplier’s fixed costs, and the unit charges cover their variable costs.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 42,972
    edited September 2022
    HYUFD said:


    It is Brentwood and Ongar constituency, Epping Forest District.

    Epping Forest constituency is mainly small towns like Epping and Chigwell and Waltham Abbey and Buckhurst Hill plus basically outer London suburbia like Loughton.

    Most of rural Epping Forest District eg around Ongar and North Weald, is in Brentwood and Ongar

    Epping, Loughton, Buckhurst Hill, Debden, Chigwell all served by the London Underground.
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 2,819
    carnforth said:

    When the tide goes out etc…



    Edit: genuinely fascinating how much these differ

    Who takes the bath in the US case?
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 6,649
    edited September 2022
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 107,077
    edited September 2022
    Sun Deltapoll finds voters back Kwarteng's cut to the basic rate of income tax, national insurance and raising the stamp duty threshold.

    They oppose however scrapping the 45p top income tax rate, scrapping the bankers' bonus levy and exempting overseas tourists from VAT.

    Most Tory voters back cutting corporation tax, most Labour and LD voters don't

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/19909831/poll-finds-brits-delighted-kwasi-kwarteng-mini-budget/
  • Completely bemused by the Mail headline. So the previous 11 Tory Budgets weren't really Tory Budgets??
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 1,458
    One with more countries on, albeit in Polish:


  • stodgestodge Posts: 11,215
    Sandpit said:

    stodge said:

    If there wasn't enough going on #chinacoup is trending on twitter.

    I don't know about China, Mrs Stodge is in rebellious mood this evening.

    Having been temporarily placated by Kwarteng's comments on IR35 yesterday, she is enraged by the latest missive from British Gas with our near 35% increase in energy costs (gas and electricity). I pointed out two thirds of that will be picked off by the £400 Energy Bills Support Scheme.

    What ticks me off (and Mrs Stodge too) is while accepting the Unit Price of the product itself may have increased, the companies are pulling a fast one by jacking up the standing charges. Why should the standing charges increase? They should be held at current levels.
    The standing charges increased as a result of the bailout scheme for failed suppliers in the past couple of years, which are being passed on as fixed costs to those remaining. Generally speaking, the standing charges cover the supplier’s fixed costs, and the unit charges cover their variable costs.
    In effect, it's the pay off for the Big 5 taking on the customers and the supply from the minnows who went under. Yet the poor old customer is picking this up which doesn't seem quite right.

    All too often it seems economies of scale rule and the cartelisation of the economy leads to small groups of large suppliers/providers who run the market and not for the benefit of the consumer.
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 1,458
    edited September 2022

    carnforth said:

    When the tide goes out etc…



    Edit: genuinely fascinating how much these differ

    Who takes the bath in the US case?
    The government via Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac?
  • pingping Posts: 3,282
    edited September 2022
    carnforth said:

    When the tide goes out etc…



    Edit: genuinely fascinating how much these differ

    Indeed. Some time back I asked the wise old sages on PB why we couldn’t have long term fixed US style mortgages. There wasn’t a clear answer, but the suspicion is that it’s all to do with the the odd back-end of the mortgage market in the US - Fannie May & Freddie Mac. They set the terms of retail mortgages. Works differently here and differently again in other countries.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 6,649

    Pulpstar said:

    Straight skyward contrail near St Petersburg...

    What?
    It seems someone hit air defence rockets assemble! By mistake
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,107
    People like free money. ;)
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 107,077
    Truss to increase the number of foreign immigrants into the UK by extending the list of shortage occupations
    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/19909863/liz-truss-ease-foreign-workers-rules/
  • Pulpstar said:

    Straight skyward contrail near St Petersburg...

    What?
    It seems someone hit air defence rockets assemble! By mistake
    Can someone please check on Leon?
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 9,025
    And PB said the Monte Carlo Or Bust budget doesn’t have any support outside of the top 1% because all the rest of us are being shafted? Well 19% that’s 1 in 5 support it in the Opinium poll. And even more in delta poll love this budget.

    Maybe we ought to consider this budget moving the election polls in Truss favour over the next few weeks?
  • kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 3,401
    IshmaelZ said:

    Dynamo said:

    Sandpit said:

    When do we think it's going to start getting properly cold? I see a few 15 degree high days coming up but they're few and far between.

    Its already cold enough that heating set to minimum levels will start kicking in at times. Proper cold any time from November?
    My heating isn't yet on at all.
    we've had heating on for about 1 hour this month. just got my last bill and we used £14.32 in gas last month. with the £400 rebate our bill will be about £5.60 per month october to march. crazy. Stepdaughter and her 3 children live in a colder house and seem addicted to doing laundry and using the tumble drier so they can have our £400.
    Tumble dryers should be high on the list for the public information campaign - they use an inordinate amount of electricity, more than any other single appliance. After turning down the room temperature, avoiding the tumble dryer is the single best thing you can do to reduce the winter bills.
    What is the point in a tumble dryer? Can't you just stick your clothes up around the house or buy a heated drying rack like I've got. Never seen the point in owning one.
    Kids.

    As a young adult I was very happy to use drying racks or radiators etc for mine and then my wife's clothes.

    But with a family, doing a family's load of laundry, tumble dryers are a blessing.

    Especially since cleaning a house with a couple of young kids is in itself much more of a chore, without even thinking about laundry it's like running on a treadmill just to stand still so anything that helps like dryers are very useful, especially in winter.
    Is "drying rack" what posh people call a clothes horse?

    The best place to hang wet clothes if you cannot afford to run radiators is on a clothes horse in front of a coal fire or an open oven door. You will be using the gas oven for heating anyway if you haven't got a coal fire or if you can only afford to heat one room, in which case it should be the kitchen for obvious reasons.
    Other way round, actually. Anything with horse in it is posh.
    Which is why the Queen always enjoyed Findus crispy pancakes.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 9,025
    HYUFD said:

    Truss to increase the number of foreign immigrants into the UK by extending the list of shortage occupations
    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/19909863/liz-truss-ease-foreign-workers-rules/

    Remainers can’t complain - it’s what they voted for with their remain vote.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 6,649

    And PB said the Monte Carlo Or Bust budget doesn’t have any support outside of the top 1% because all the rest of us are being shafted? Well 19% that’s 1 in 5 support it in the Opinium poll. And even more in delta poll love this budget.

    Maybe we ought to consider this budget moving the election polls in Truss favour over the next few weeks?
    I await some VI with interest.......
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 36,717

    Pulpstar said:

    Straight skyward contrail near St Petersburg...

    What?
    It seems someone hit air defence rockets assemble! By mistake
    Can someone please check on Leon?
    I think he has been mobilised by Putin by the look of this video:

    https://twitter.com/bayraktar_1love/status/1573662086927884288?t=dwHbTXDX-7SdMBvBEacgJw&s=19
  • TomsToms Posts: 2,478
    edited September 2022

    Pulpstar said:

    Straight skyward contrail near St Petersburg...

    What?
    It seems someone hit air defence rockets assemble! By mistake
    Or maybe subtly reminding the West that they have defences?
    By the way, this informative fellow thinks we shouldn't assume that guys leaving Russia in a hurry don't like Putin. Just the draft.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4kwHn3FNgo
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 9,025

    Completely bemused by the Mail headline. So the previous 11 Tory Budgets weren't really Tory Budgets??

    I refer you to Saturdays Matt cartoon.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 107,077

    HYUFD said:

    Truss to increase the number of foreign immigrants into the UK by extending the list of shortage occupations
    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/19909863/liz-truss-ease-foreign-workers-rules/

    Remainers can’t complain - it’s what they voted for with their remain vote.
    Truss herself was a Remainer let us not forget.

    However not sure tax cuts mainly benefiting the rich and more immigrants will keep the redwall voting Conservative again next time
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 36,717

    HYUFD said:

    Truss to increase the number of foreign immigrants into the UK by extending the list of shortage occupations
    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/19909863/liz-truss-ease-foreign-workers-rules/

    Remainers can’t complain - it’s what they voted for with their remain vote.
    Unless the right to move to their country freely is part of the deal, it isn't the same.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 29,164
    🔴Liz Truss faces a rebellion from Tory backbenchers against her tax cuts if the pound falls below the dollar, The Telegraph can reveal https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/09/24/tories-rebel-against-liz-truss-pound-falls-dollar/
  • stodgestodge Posts: 11,215


    And PB said the Monte Carlo Or Bust budget doesn’t have any support outside of the top 1% because all the rest of us are being shafted? Well 19% that’s 1 in 5 support it in the Opinium poll. And even more in delta poll love this budget.

    Maybe we ought to consider this budget moving the election polls in Truss favour over the next few weeks?

    I doubt anyone actually said that - there may well be a short to medium term lift for the Conservatives though we will hear the Labour response in the coming week.

    That will, I suspect, concentrate on the "fairness" of the proposals which I think will resonate over time. There's also the fact we've heard nothing on the spending side of the debate - are we looking at big cuts to public spending? I suspect seeing public services eroded won't sit too well with many people - it didn't in the mid-90s.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 23,321
    Off topic: Britbox - worth it or not?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 107,077
    edited September 2022
    stodge said:


    And PB said the Monte Carlo Or Bust budget doesn’t have any support outside of the top 1% because all the rest of us are being shafted? Well 19% that’s 1 in 5 support it in the Opinium poll. And even more in delta poll love this budget.

    Maybe we ought to consider this budget moving the election polls in Truss favour over the next few weeks?

    I doubt anyone actually said that - there may well be a short to medium term lift for the Conservatives though we will hear the Labour response in the coming week.

    That will, I suspect, concentrate on the "fairness" of the proposals which I think will resonate over time. There's also the fact we've heard nothing on the spending side of the debate - are we looking at big cuts to public spending? I suspect seeing public services eroded won't sit too well with many people - it didn't in the mid-90s.
    If the Tories are re elected then spending cuts are likely.

    There is now a clear choice on economics at the next election, tax cuts and likely spending cuts with the Tories or higher taxes for the rich especially and higher public spending with Labour
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 56,522

    Completely bemused by the Mail headline. So the previous 11 Tory Budgets weren't really Tory Budgets??

    They're now frozen in time. They are statue Tory budgets.

    (If you repeat that one about "statue Tory sick pay" I will tell @rcs1000 you have been dissing Radiohead.)
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 56,522
    DavidL said:

    carnforth said:

    WSJ gives a cautious welcome to the Kwarteng plan:

    https://archive.ph/gTumT

    Hard to disagree with this bit:

    "A dishonorable mention here goes to Bank of England Governor Andrew Bailey.
    If Ms. Truss’s policies pump up demand too much, the central bank would be forced to raise rates higher to counter inflationary pressure, Mr. Bailey warned in a letter to Mr. Kwarteng on Thursday that was widely interpreted as a swipe at the imminent tax-cut announcement.
    Every other central banker in the developed world would probably love to be in Mr. Bailey’s shoes right now. As they have tightened monetary policy to combat inflation, they all beg their political counterparts to enact supply-side pro-growth policies to ease the recessionary impact of tighter money. Mario Draghi said it in every speech when he ran the European Central Bank. Mr. Bailey has a Prime Minister who’s actually doing this, and all he can do is complain."

    He's really got to go. Never should have been appointed.
    Is there a senior public official you couldn't say that of right now?
  • pingping Posts: 3,282
    HYUFD said:

    stodge said:


    And PB said the Monte Carlo Or Bust budget doesn’t have any support outside of the top 1% because all the rest of us are being shafted? Well 19% that’s 1 in 5 support it in the Opinium poll. And even more in delta poll love this budget.

    Maybe we ought to consider this budget moving the election polls in Truss favour over the next few weeks?

    I doubt anyone actually said that - there may well be a short to medium term lift for the Conservatives though we will hear the Labour response in the coming week.

    That will, I suspect, concentrate on the "fairness" of the proposals which I think will resonate over time. There's also the fact we've heard nothing on the spending side of the debate - are we looking at big cuts to public spending? I suspect seeing public services eroded won't sit too well with many people - it didn't in the mid-90s.
    If the Tories are re elected then spending cuts are likely.

    There is now a clear choice on economics at the next election, tax cuts and likely spending cuts with the Tories or higher taxes for the rich especially and higher public spending with Labour
    Indeed.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 56,522

    HYUFD said:

    Truss to increase the number of foreign immigrants into the UK by extending the list of shortage occupations
    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/19909863/liz-truss-ease-foreign-workers-rules/

    Remainers can’t complain - it’s what they voted for with their remain vote.
    Totally unrelated to this, but Leicestershire have also come out against the Strauss review today.

    One more county opposing it and it can't go forward. And Derbyshire are also expected to reject it.

    Interesting that so far Durham haven't said anything.
  • Russia’s demobilisation is off to a good start:

    Ukrainian forces shot down four Russian fighter jets today.
    4 aircrafts (Su-25, two Su-30 and one Su-34)


    https://twitter.com/warmonitor3/status/1573715122710843394
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 56,522

    Russia’s demobilisation is off to a good start:

    Ukrainian forces shot down four Russian fighter jets today.
    4 aircrafts (Su-25, two Su-30 and one Su-34)


    https://twitter.com/warmonitor3/status/1573715122710843394

    Errrr..typo?
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 9,025
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Truss to increase the number of foreign immigrants into the UK by extending the list of shortage occupations
    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/19909863/liz-truss-ease-foreign-workers-rules/

    Remainers can’t complain - it’s what they voted for with their remain vote.
    Truss herself was a Remainer let us not forget.

    However not sure tax cuts mainly benefiting the rich and more immigrants will keep the redwall voting Conservative again next time
    Correct me where wrong, red wall is

    Long term trend regardless of current politics - mining towns and villages as ideal Escape To The… tv show destination.

    Some voted Labour all their life, identify publicly as Tory now, likely because of Brexit and Boris.

    Some voters in from the cold, found by Brexit referendum, turned out 2019 to get Brexit done and keep Boris PM

    Labour voters no showed because of Corbyn and momentum’s insane borrow too much money and risk wrecking economy manifesto.

    So that’s a lot of different groupings and motivations, quite hard to second guess what they will all do, and impossible to think Labour gets the vote of all of them, particularly new Tory voters because of Brexit. The truth here is Liz inherits bonus votes in red wall regards of her policies the next couple of years.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 11,492
    Cyclefree said:

    Off topic: Britbox - worth it or not?

    Depends if you want to watch a lot of old BBC and ITV programmes. I have it for Dr Who, Blake’s 7, Poirot etc. I don’t think it’s good for new stuff.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 36,717
    edited September 2022

    And PB said the Monte Carlo Or Bust budget doesn’t have any support outside of the top 1% because all the rest of us are being shafted? Well 19% that’s 1 in 5 support it in the Opinium poll. And even more in delta poll love this budget.

    Maybe we ought to consider this budget moving the election polls in Truss favour over the next few weeks?
    The Opinium poll was done before the mini budget, so not a reaction to it, just theoretical support for tax cuts.
  • ydoethur said:

    Russia’s demobilisation is off to a good start:

    Ukrainian forces shot down four Russian fighter jets today.
    4 aircrafts (Su-25, two Su-30 and one Su-34)


    https://twitter.com/warmonitor3/status/1573715122710843394

    Errrr..typo?
    No, those aircraft won’t be very mobile now.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 6,649

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Truss to increase the number of foreign immigrants into the UK by extending the list of shortage occupations
    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/19909863/liz-truss-ease-foreign-workers-rules/

    Remainers can’t complain - it’s what they voted for with their remain vote.
    Truss herself was a Remainer let us not forget.

    However not sure tax cuts mainly benefiting the rich and more immigrants will keep the redwall voting Conservative again next time
    Correct me where wrong, red wall is

    Long term trend regardless of current politics - mining towns and villages as ideal Escape To The… tv show destination.

    Some voted Labour all their life, identify publicly as Tory now, likely because of Brexit and Boris.

    Some voters in from the cold, found by Brexit referendum, turned out 2019 to get Brexit done and keep Boris PM

    Labour voters no showed because of Corbyn and momentum’s insane borrow too much money and risk wrecking economy manifesto.

    So that’s a lot of different groupings and motivations, quite hard to second guess what they will all do, and impossible to think Labour gets the vote of all of them, particularly new Tory voters because of Brexit. The truth here is Liz inherits bonus votes in red wall regards of her policies the next couple of years.
    There is also a very clear trend in much of the red wall since 2005 that will drag on any reversal
  • EPGEPG Posts: 5,248
    DavidL said:

    carnforth said:

    WSJ gives a cautious welcome to the Kwarteng plan:

    https://archive.ph/gTumT

    Hard to disagree with this bit:

    "A dishonorable mention here goes to Bank of England Governor Andrew Bailey.
    If Ms. Truss’s policies pump up demand too much, the central bank would be forced to raise rates higher to counter inflationary pressure, Mr. Bailey warned in a letter to Mr. Kwarteng on Thursday that was widely interpreted as a swipe at the imminent tax-cut announcement.
    Every other central banker in the developed world would probably love to be in Mr. Bailey’s shoes right now. As they have tightened monetary policy to combat inflation, they all beg their political counterparts to enact supply-side pro-growth policies to ease the recessionary impact of tighter money. Mario Draghi said it in every speech when he ran the European Central Bank. Mr. Bailey has a Prime Minister who’s actually doing this, and all he can do is complain."

    He's really got to go. Never should have been appointed.
    Kwarteng's budget is not a supply-side policy. It's a huge stimulus, as is pretty clear from rate expectation and the currency drop. WSJ have just discovered another Reagan who cuts taxes, does nothing about spend, and lets some Bush equivalent in the future raise them again.
  • Foxy said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Straight skyward contrail near St Petersburg...

    What?
    It seems someone hit air defence rockets assemble! By mistake
    Can someone please check on Leon?
    I think he has been mobilised by Putin by the look of this video:

    https://twitter.com/bayraktar_1love/status/1573662086927884288?t=dwHbTXDX-7SdMBvBEacgJw&s=19
    Where is angliyski fiz!
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 45,788
    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    carnforth said:

    WSJ gives a cautious welcome to the Kwarteng plan:

    https://archive.ph/gTumT

    Hard to disagree with this bit:

    "A dishonorable mention here goes to Bank of England Governor Andrew Bailey.
    If Ms. Truss’s policies pump up demand too much, the central bank would be forced to raise rates higher to counter inflationary pressure, Mr. Bailey warned in a letter to Mr. Kwarteng on Thursday that was widely interpreted as a swipe at the imminent tax-cut announcement.
    Every other central banker in the developed world would probably love to be in Mr. Bailey’s shoes right now. As they have tightened monetary policy to combat inflation, they all beg their political counterparts to enact supply-side pro-growth policies to ease the recessionary impact of tighter money. Mario Draghi said it in every speech when he ran the European Central Bank. Mr. Bailey has a Prime Minister who’s actually doing this, and all he can do is complain."

    He's really got to go. Never should have been appointed.
    Is there a senior public official you couldn't say that of right now?
    Chris Whitty? Didn't get everything right by any means but in a difficult situation got more than most.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 18,977
    ydoethur said:

    Russia’s demobilisation is off to a good start:

    Ukrainian forces shot down four Russian fighter jets today.
    4 aircrafts (Su-25, two Su-30 and one Su-34)


    https://twitter.com/warmonitor3/status/1573715122710843394

    Errrr..typo?
    Well the crews of the four fighter jets were certainly demobilised.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 9,025
    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    Truss to increase the number of foreign immigrants into the UK by extending the list of shortage occupations
    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/19909863/liz-truss-ease-foreign-workers-rules/

    Remainers can’t complain - it’s what they voted for with their remain vote.
    Totally unrelated to this, but Leicestershire have also come out against the Strauss review today.

    One more county opposing it and it can't go forward. And Derbyshire are also expected to reject it.

    Interesting that so far Durham haven't said anything.
    So what happens then, a fudge compromise? Somerset who were humiliated in the 50 over cup, claiming they don’t want to lose players to 100 at same time again, Strauss proposed losing players from championship fixtures to hundred instead. Rather like the BBC license fee sometimes change can’t be avoided, the contracts county give players only to have limited times they can pick them - Yorkshires best player King Harry won’t be able to play against minor county west next week for example, kind of debases the fixture and makes me hold back on all the verbal I should be giving you in case we miss him too much.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 23,321

    Cyclefree said:

    Off topic: Britbox - worth it or not?

    Depends if you want to watch a lot of old BBC and ITV programmes. I have it for Dr Who, Blake’s 7, Poirot etc. I don’t think it’s good for new stuff.
    Thank you. There's one particular programme I want to watch - but not in the cut version available on terrestrial TV. So may try it for the free 7 days then decide.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 107,077

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Truss to increase the number of foreign immigrants into the UK by extending the list of shortage occupations
    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/19909863/liz-truss-ease-foreign-workers-rules/

    Remainers can’t complain - it’s what they voted for with their remain vote.
    Truss herself was a Remainer let us not forget.

    However not sure tax cuts mainly benefiting the rich and more immigrants will keep the redwall voting Conservative again next time
    Correct me where wrong, red wall is

    Long term trend regardless of current politics - mining towns and villages as ideal Escape To The… tv show destination.

    Some voted Labour all their life, identify publicly as Tory now, likely because of Brexit and Boris.

    Some voters in from the cold, found by Brexit referendum, turned out 2019 to get Brexit done and keep Boris PM

    Labour voters no showed because of Corbyn and momentum’s insane borrow too much money and risk wrecking economy manifesto.

    So that’s a lot of different groupings and motivations, quite hard to second guess what they will all do, and impossible to think Labour gets the vote of all of them, particularly new Tory voters because of Brexit. The truth here is Liz inherits bonus votes in red wall regards of her policies the next couple of years.
    No, the Tories will still likely hold a few of them but most redwall seats are lower than average income and sceptical of immigration, not who Truss' initial measures are focused on
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 45,788
    edited September 2022
    EPG said:

    DavidL said:

    carnforth said:

    WSJ gives a cautious welcome to the Kwarteng plan:

    https://archive.ph/gTumT

    Hard to disagree with this bit:

    "A dishonorable mention here goes to Bank of England Governor Andrew Bailey.
    If Ms. Truss’s policies pump up demand too much, the central bank would be forced to raise rates higher to counter inflationary pressure, Mr. Bailey warned in a letter to Mr. Kwarteng on Thursday that was widely interpreted as a swipe at the imminent tax-cut announcement.
    Every other central banker in the developed world would probably love to be in Mr. Bailey’s shoes right now. As they have tightened monetary policy to combat inflation, they all beg their political counterparts to enact supply-side pro-growth policies to ease the recessionary impact of tighter money. Mario Draghi said it in every speech when he ran the European Central Bank. Mr. Bailey has a Prime Minister who’s actually doing this, and all he can do is complain."

    He's really got to go. Never should have been appointed.
    Kwarteng's budget is not a supply-side policy. It's a huge stimulus, as is pretty clear from rate expectation and the currency drop. WSJ have just discovered another Reagan who cuts taxes, does nothing about spend, and lets some Bush equivalent in the future raise them again.
    Don't see that. Its clearly a supply side policy and it is clearly intended to offset the monetary tightening that the Bank is imposing (belatedly) to reduce inflation. Whether it is an optimal supply side policy is open to question; @MaxPB and I have both said that other kinds of stimulus would have had much better multiplier effects, but it is clearly supply side.
  • ydoethur said:

    Completely bemused by the Mail headline. So the previous 11 Tory Budgets weren't really Tory Budgets??

    They're now frozen in time. They are statue Tory budgets.

    (If you repeat that one about "statue Tory sick pay" I will tell @rcs1000 you have been dissing Radiohead.)
    Due to having fessed up to suffering from excessive boredom during Lockdown, PB's resident flint-knapper @Leon was commissioned by CCHQ to knap the perfect sculpture of Boris Johnson! Finally able to take a break from knapping strangely shaped sex-toys, he accepted the work in a heartbeat, and got to sculpting the same day. Arduous work, but he felt that, over the course of several weeks of almost continuous knapping, that he got it almost completely spot on with just a little bit more required.

    However, @Leon had found that he had knapped so meticulously that his hands were thoroughly knackered and sore. He wondered about taking some time off in order to finish off his masterpiece at a later date. Boris's office phoned him back reasonably promptly, but to @Leon's horror, he was told in no uncertain terms that he would lose his fee if he stopped work!

    "Why?" asked @Leon on the phone incredulously.

    "Simple!" Boris's underling replied. "You're not entitled to any..." He paused for effect. "...Statue-Tory Sick Pay!"

    I thank you!
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 107,077
    edited September 2022
    EPG said:

    DavidL said:

    carnforth said:

    WSJ gives a cautious welcome to the Kwarteng plan:

    https://archive.ph/gTumT

    Hard to disagree with this bit:

    "A dishonorable mention here goes to Bank of England Governor Andrew Bailey.
    If Ms. Truss’s policies pump up demand too much, the central bank would be forced to raise rates higher to counter inflationary pressure, Mr. Bailey warned in a letter to Mr. Kwarteng on Thursday that was widely interpreted as a swipe at the imminent tax-cut announcement.
    Every other central banker in the developed world would probably love to be in Mr. Bailey’s shoes right now. As they have tightened monetary policy to combat inflation, they all beg their political counterparts to enact supply-side pro-growth policies to ease the recessionary impact of tighter money. Mario Draghi said it in every speech when he ran the European Central Bank. Mr. Bailey has a Prime Minister who’s actually doing this, and all he can do is complain."

    He's really got to go. Never should have been appointed.
    Kwarteng's budget is not a supply-side policy. It's a huge stimulus, as is pretty clear from rate expectation and the currency drop. WSJ have just discovered another Reagan who cuts taxes, does nothing about spend, and lets some Bush equivalent in the future raise them again.
    As you suggest Kwarteng's budget was closer to Reaganomics than Thatcherite sound money, it was based on huge tax cuts and borrowing.

    It did lead to growth but as you state Bush 41 and Bill Clinton then had to raise taxes to close the deficit, followed by the Gingrich revolution after the GOP win in the 1994 midterms forced spending cuts
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 56,522

    ydoethur said:

    Completely bemused by the Mail headline. So the previous 11 Tory Budgets weren't really Tory Budgets??

    They're now frozen in time. They are statue Tory budgets.

    (If you repeat that one about "statue Tory sick pay" I will tell @rcs1000 you have been dissing Radiohead.)
    Due to having fessed up to suffering from excessive boredom during Lockdown, PB's resident flint-knapper @Leon was commissioned by CCHQ to knap the perfect sculpture of Boris Johnson! Finally able to take a break from knapping strangely shaped sex-toys, he accepted the work in a heartbeat, and got to sculpting the same day. Arduous work, but he felt that, over the course of several weeks of almost continuous knapping, that he got it almost completely spot on with just a little bit more required.

    However, @Leon had found that he had knapped so meticulously that his hands were thoroughly knackered and sore. He wondered about taking some time off in order to finish off his masterpiece at a later date. Boris's office phoned him back reasonably promptly, but to @Leon's horror, he was told in no uncertain terms that he would lose his fee if he stopped work!

    "Why?" asked @Leon on the phone incredulously.

    "Simple!" Boris's underling replied. "You're not entitled to any..." He paused for effect. "...Statue-Tory Sick Pay!"

    I thank you!
    @rcs1000

    I think you should know this man despises Radiohead.
  • EPGEPG Posts: 5,248
    ping said:

    carnforth said:

    When the tide goes out etc…



    Edit: genuinely fascinating how much these differ

    Indeed. Some time back I asked the wise old sages on PB why we couldn’t have long term fixed US style mortgages. There wasn’t a clear answer, but the suspicion is that it’s all to do with the the odd back-end of the mortgage market in the US - Fannie May & Freddie Mac. They set the terms of retail mortgages. Works differently here and differently again in other countries.
    Investors in the USA buy the long-term fixed-rate mortgages. To make sure they buy, the mortgages get insured through Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, which were legally non-government but of course got a few hundred billion dollars of bailout funds in 2008, as everyone expected them to in a huge crisis. So you need a government that will immunise the long-term investors from credit risk.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 29,164
    They are, to be fair, all a lot richer than they were a week ago. https://twitter.com/christopherhope/status/1573765548944592898
  • DavidL said:

    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    carnforth said:

    WSJ gives a cautious welcome to the Kwarteng plan:

    https://archive.ph/gTumT

    Hard to disagree with this bit:

    "A dishonorable mention here goes to Bank of England Governor Andrew Bailey.
    If Ms. Truss’s policies pump up demand too much, the central bank would be forced to raise rates higher to counter inflationary pressure, Mr. Bailey warned in a letter to Mr. Kwarteng on Thursday that was widely interpreted as a swipe at the imminent tax-cut announcement.
    Every other central banker in the developed world would probably love to be in Mr. Bailey’s shoes right now. As they have tightened monetary policy to combat inflation, they all beg their political counterparts to enact supply-side pro-growth policies to ease the recessionary impact of tighter money. Mario Draghi said it in every speech when he ran the European Central Bank. Mr. Bailey has a Prime Minister who’s actually doing this, and all he can do is complain."

    He's really got to go. Never should have been appointed.
    Is there a senior public official you couldn't say that of right now?
    Chris Whitty? Didn't get everything right by any means but in a difficult situation got more than most.
    wasnt he too taken by numbers of cases that were far too high forecast? Especially post vaccination? Boris did well not to listen to covid "experts " towards the end
  • Oh dear, Liz Truss’s new Chief of Staff seems to have quite an irregular contractual arrangement.

    https://twitter.com/gabriel_pogrund/status/1573720354555678720?s=46&t=wZTjBKjF_ZcDF3fTIQ7L6A

    Wonder if that came up in his recent chit-chat with FBI agents? Who are investigating campaign contributions, official bribery & dodgy bankery allegations in Puerto Rico, which among other things involve his lobby AND political consulting firm, which besides itself features Sir Lynton Crosby.

    NOT necessarily in a criminally-liable way. Just that the Feds have a LOT of questions, plus a consultant who's been indicted and plead guilty in this developing case.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 29,164
    Asked during the campaign if she would appoint a new independent ethics adviser as PM, Liz Truss replied that she didn't need to because she already understands "the difference between right and wrong". https://twitter.com/AdamBienkov/status/1573752709387280384/photo/1
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 56,522
    edited September 2022

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    Truss to increase the number of foreign immigrants into the UK by extending the list of shortage occupations
    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/19909863/liz-truss-ease-foreign-workers-rules/

    Remainers can’t complain - it’s what they voted for with their remain vote.
    Totally unrelated to this, but Leicestershire have also come out against the Strauss review today.

    One more county opposing it and it can't go forward. And Derbyshire are also expected to reject it.

    Interesting that so far Durham haven't said anything.
    So what happens then, a fudge compromise? Somerset who were humiliated in the 50 over cup, claiming they don’t want to lose players to 100 at same time again, Strauss proposed losing players from championship fixtures to hundred instead. Rather like the BBC license fee sometimes change can’t be avoided, the contracts county give players only to have limited times they can pick them - Yorkshires best player King Harry won’t be able to play against minor county west next week for example, kind of debases the fixture and makes me hold back on all the verbal I should be giving you in case we miss him too much.
    Most probably, no change. The status quo (aka, and here I do actually agree with the ECB, a stupid mess, but I'm not forgetting it's a mess of their making) remains unless a positive vote is taken to alter the situation. That's why, for example, we went back to two divisions instead of extending last year's triple conference season (which I actually thought worked very well) because a vote to continue it was lost.

    But if they are not voted through, it probably makes Strauss' position untenable given the way he has publicly identified himself with them. That, however, is unlikely to force meaningful change at the ECB which is what is really needed.

    Edit - incidentally Strauss didn't propose championship cricket during the Hundred. He proposed instead local Derby matches e.g. Yorks and Lancs, Notts and Leics, Glos and Som, at outgrounds to 'promote interest.'

    Quite what he assumes that would achieve I have no idea, although I admit I might well turn out to see Glos v Glamorgan at Cheltenham.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 42,433

    Russia’s demobilisation is off to a good start:

    Ukrainian forces shot down four Russian fighter jets today.
    4 aircrafts (Su-25, two Su-30 and one Su-34)


    https://twitter.com/warmonitor3/status/1573715122710843394

    That’s 259 aircraft the Ukranians claim to have got so far - which is nearly 20% of the aircraft the Russian military are supposed to have!

    Assume that half of them are serviceable, and that’s a 40% loss of capability for the Russians - and more importantly, a show of strength by Ukraine that the enemy still can’t attain air superiority.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 45,788

    DavidL said:

    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    carnforth said:

    WSJ gives a cautious welcome to the Kwarteng plan:

    https://archive.ph/gTumT

    Hard to disagree with this bit:

    "A dishonorable mention here goes to Bank of England Governor Andrew Bailey.
    If Ms. Truss’s policies pump up demand too much, the central bank would be forced to raise rates higher to counter inflationary pressure, Mr. Bailey warned in a letter to Mr. Kwarteng on Thursday that was widely interpreted as a swipe at the imminent tax-cut announcement.
    Every other central banker in the developed world would probably love to be in Mr. Bailey’s shoes right now. As they have tightened monetary policy to combat inflation, they all beg their political counterparts to enact supply-side pro-growth policies to ease the recessionary impact of tighter money. Mario Draghi said it in every speech when he ran the European Central Bank. Mr. Bailey has a Prime Minister who’s actually doing this, and all he can do is complain."

    He's really got to go. Never should have been appointed.
    Is there a senior public official you couldn't say that of right now?
    Chris Whitty? Didn't get everything right by any means but in a difficult situation got more than most.
    wasnt he too taken by numbers of cases that were far too high forecast? Especially post vaccination? Boris did well not to listen to covid "experts " towards the end
    As I said no one got it alright but he got a lot right and kept a fairly calm head in tricky situations. I agree Boris was right to end lockdown despite the number of cases.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 56,522
    Scott_xP said:

    Asked during the campaign if she would appoint a new independent ethics adviser as PM, Liz Truss replied that she didn't need to because she already understands "the difference between right and wrong". https://twitter.com/AdamBienkov/status/1573752709387280384/photo/1

    So she knows what's wrong, and does it anyway?
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 2,347
    HYUFD said:

    stodge said:


    And PB said the Monte Carlo Or Bust budget doesn’t have any support outside of the top 1% because all the rest of us are being shafted? Well 19% that’s 1 in 5 support it in the Opinium poll. And even more in delta poll love this budget.

    Maybe we ought to consider this budget moving the election polls in Truss favour over the next few weeks?

    I doubt anyone actually said that - there may well be a short to medium term lift for the Conservatives though we will hear the Labour response in the coming week.

    That will, I suspect, concentrate on the "fairness" of the proposals which I think will resonate over time. There's also the fact we've heard nothing on the spending side of the debate - are we looking at big cuts to public spending? I suspect seeing public services eroded won't sit too well with many people - it didn't in the mid-90s.
    If the Tories are re elected then spending cuts are likely.

    There is now a clear choice on economics at the next election, tax cuts and likely spending cuts with the Tories or higher taxes for the rich especially and higher public spending with Labour
    Let’s hope the next election is decided on economic arguments, and not on Woke, Brexit (ok, that’s partly an economic argument), the foreign, or any other Mail/Express prejudices.
  • EPGEPG Posts: 5,248
    DavidL said:

    EPG said:

    DavidL said:

    carnforth said:

    WSJ gives a cautious welcome to the Kwarteng plan:

    https://archive.ph/gTumT

    Hard to disagree with this bit:

    "A dishonorable mention here goes to Bank of England Governor Andrew Bailey.
    If Ms. Truss’s policies pump up demand too much, the central bank would be forced to raise rates higher to counter inflationary pressure, Mr. Bailey warned in a letter to Mr. Kwarteng on Thursday that was widely interpreted as a swipe at the imminent tax-cut announcement.
    Every other central banker in the developed world would probably love to be in Mr. Bailey’s shoes right now. As they have tightened monetary policy to combat inflation, they all beg their political counterparts to enact supply-side pro-growth policies to ease the recessionary impact of tighter money. Mario Draghi said it in every speech when he ran the European Central Bank. Mr. Bailey has a Prime Minister who’s actually doing this, and all he can do is complain."

    He's really got to go. Never should have been appointed.
    Kwarteng's budget is not a supply-side policy. It's a huge stimulus, as is pretty clear from rate expectation and the currency drop. WSJ have just discovered another Reagan who cuts taxes, does nothing about spend, and lets some Bush equivalent in the future raise them again.
    Don't see that. Its clearly a supply side policy and it is clearly intended to offset the monetary tightening that the Bank is imposing (belatedly) to reduce inflation. Whether it is an optimal supply side policy is open to question; @MaxPB and I have both said that other kinds of stimulus would have had much better multiplier effects, but it is clearly supply side.
    Supply-side policies are a quasi-literary term of course. Some people use it to mean "cut taxes", but let's say for the sake of precision that they are about removing barriers to the productive capacities of the economy regardless of domestic demand. The argument would be that the tax cut would be a labour supply policy, in part to encourage workers with plenty of cash to work more instead of opting out because they pay huge tax bills. But its unfunded nature makes that really questionable, people don't seem convinced that taxes won't just rise again to cover growth in spend. It will definitely lead to extra demand - I don't buy the story that the idle rich will just store cash under their beds, neither do FX markets, they know some big stimulus is coming through extra profits plus spending. So I call it demand-side. It's partly in the eye of the beholder!
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 25,214
    Gavin Barwell scathing about the Budget on R5L.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 9,025
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Truss to increase the number of foreign immigrants into the UK by extending the list of shortage occupations
    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/19909863/liz-truss-ease-foreign-workers-rules/

    Remainers can’t complain - it’s what they voted for with their remain vote.
    Truss herself was a Remainer let us not forget.

    However not sure tax cuts mainly benefiting the rich and more immigrants will keep the redwall voting Conservative again next time
    Correct me where wrong, red wall is

    Long term trend regardless of current politics - mining towns and villages as ideal Escape To The… tv show destination.

    Some voted Labour all their life, identify publicly as Tory now, likely because of Brexit and Boris.

    Some voters in from the cold, found by Brexit referendum, turned out 2019 to get Brexit done and keep Boris PM

    Labour voters no showed because of Corbyn and momentum’s insane borrow too much money and risk wrecking economy manifesto.

    So that’s a lot of different groupings and motivations, quite hard to second guess what they will all do, and impossible to think Labour gets the vote of all of them, particularly new Tory voters because of Brexit. The truth here is Liz inherits bonus votes in red wall regards of her policies the next couple of years.
    No, the Tories will still likely hold a few of them but most redwall seats are lower than average income and sceptical of immigration, not who Truss' initial measures are focused on
    Yes, but no, becuase as I pointed out, it’s not just one type of voter with 1 motivation. Take the lower than average income voter who lurrrrrvs Brexit, switched from labour to Tory in hatred of confirmation vote remainer Starmer, that vote ain’t returning Labour any time soon regardless what Truss does.

    Also when you casually toss in “truss not keeping red wall” you forget incumbency bonus - so many new red wall MPs are brilliant bluff northern types beloved by all their constituents now regardless what Truss does.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 25,214

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Truss to increase the number of foreign immigrants into the UK by extending the list of shortage occupations
    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/19909863/liz-truss-ease-foreign-workers-rules/

    Remainers can’t complain - it’s what they voted for with their remain vote.
    Truss herself was a Remainer let us not forget.

    However not sure tax cuts mainly benefiting the rich and more immigrants will keep the redwall voting Conservative again next time
    Correct me where wrong, red wall is

    Long term trend regardless of current politics - mining towns and villages as ideal Escape To The… tv show destination.

    Some voted Labour all their life, identify publicly as Tory now, likely because of Brexit and Boris.

    Some voters in from the cold, found by Brexit referendum, turned out 2019 to get Brexit done and keep Boris PM

    Labour voters no showed because of Corbyn and momentum’s insane borrow too much money and risk wrecking economy manifesto.

    So that’s a lot of different groupings and motivations, quite hard to second guess what they will all do, and impossible to think Labour gets the vote of all of them, particularly new Tory voters because of Brexit. The truth here is Liz inherits bonus votes in red wall regards of her policies the next couple of years.
    No, the Tories will still likely hold a few of them but most redwall seats are lower than average income and sceptical of immigration, not who Truss' initial measures are focused on
    Yes, but no, becuase as I pointed out, it’s not just one type of voter with 1 motivation. Take the lower than average income voter who lurrrrrvs Brexit, switched from labour to Tory in hatred of confirmation vote remainer Starmer, that vote ain’t returning Labour any time soon regardless what Truss does.

    Also when you casually toss in “truss not keeping red wall” you forget incumbency bonus - so many new red wall MPs are brilliant bluff northern types beloved by all their constituents now regardless what Truss does.
    Names, please.

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 107,077
    edited September 2022

    HYUFD said:

    stodge said:


    And PB said the Monte Carlo Or Bust budget doesn’t have any support outside of the top 1% because all the rest of us are being shafted? Well 19% that’s 1 in 5 support it in the Opinium poll. And even more in delta poll love this budget.

    Maybe we ought to consider this budget moving the election polls in Truss favour over the next few weeks?

    I doubt anyone actually said that - there may well be a short to medium term lift for the Conservatives though we will hear the Labour response in the coming week.

    That will, I suspect, concentrate on the "fairness" of the proposals which I think will resonate over time. There's also the fact we've heard nothing on the spending side of the debate - are we looking at big cuts to public spending? I suspect seeing public services eroded won't sit too well with many people - it didn't in the mid-90s.
    If the Tories are re elected then spending cuts are likely.

    There is now a clear choice on economics at the next election, tax cuts and likely spending cuts with the Tories or higher taxes for the rich especially and higher public spending with Labour
    Let’s hope the next election is decided on economic arguments, and not on Woke, Brexit (ok, that’s partly an economic argument), the foreign, or any other Mail/Express prejudices.
    It likely will be, on Brexit there is little difference between Truss and Starmer now apart from on the NIP, Starmer is making Labour sing God Save the King at conference tomorrow and Truss is relatively socially liberal. So the big difference will be on economics
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 6,649
    edited September 2022
    Opinium has Truss and Starmer tied for best PM 27 each fieldwork 21 to 23 Sept

    'Neither' leads on 31
  • Thought the BBC4 Saturday night EU special Our Time Is Now was going to be a schlocky soap opera set in immediate post WWI KaDeWe but no, mashed up with modern Berlin settings and a brutal killing of an antisemite hooligan by trowel in first 10 minutes.

    Jury out but interesting.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 45,788
    dixiedean said:

    Gavin Barwell scathing about the Budget on R5L.

    This was the Gavin Barwell who was Chief of Staff for Theresa May? That masterclass of effective government? Well that would be a concern obviously.
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 2,347
    Cyclefree said:

    One thing that bemuses me in this country is how, for a service economy allegedly, we are really quite poor at service. I have dealt with 3 financial institutions in the past 3 days and have, literally, spent nearly 7 hours just trying to get through and matters actioned. You can get lots of responses on Twitter and endless apologies etc but there is a complete failure to understand that you actually need people who are available and able to understand and deal with a problem. Same for telephone companies and insurance companies I've dealt with this year.

    I am a bit spoiled because growing up where I did in Naples we got the sort of old-fashioned service now largely seen in historical dramas. It it was not that long ago, though.

    Far too many service providers have just dumped their responsibilities onto their customers so that we are effectively working for free for them. It is infuriating for customers and horrible for those working for them because they then have to deal with annoyed customers with little power to change things for the better. And yet sitting in a motorway cafe right now writing this, the lady serving behind the counter has been the epitome of friendliness and efficiency. So it can be done.

    Online service is great most of the time but we forget the need for effective personal contact for when things go wrong or help is needed at our peril. And that is why people (ok me) can get so infuriated: it's not just the waste of time but the determination of institutions to put us at a distance and dismiss us rather than reach out and help. It is inhuman and impersonal. It is the exact opposite of what customer service and problem-solving should be.

    Poor service due to cheap service, which equals higher profits, which equals bigger management bonuses. The ills of Britain summarised.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 107,077

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Truss to increase the number of foreign immigrants into the UK by extending the list of shortage occupations
    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/19909863/liz-truss-ease-foreign-workers-rules/

    Remainers can’t complain - it’s what they voted for with their remain vote.
    Truss herself was a Remainer let us not forget.

    However not sure tax cuts mainly benefiting the rich and more immigrants will keep the redwall voting Conservative again next time
    Correct me where wrong, red wall is

    Long term trend regardless of current politics - mining towns and villages as ideal Escape To The… tv show destination.

    Some voted Labour all their life, identify publicly as Tory now, likely because of Brexit and Boris.

    Some voters in from the cold, found by Brexit referendum, turned out 2019 to get Brexit done and keep Boris PM

    Labour voters no showed because of Corbyn and momentum’s insane borrow too much money and risk wrecking economy manifesto.

    So that’s a lot of different groupings and motivations, quite hard to second guess what they will all do, and impossible to think Labour gets the vote of all of them, particularly new Tory voters because of Brexit. The truth here is Liz inherits bonus votes in red wall regards of her policies the next couple of years.
    No, the Tories will still likely hold a few of them but most redwall seats are lower than average income and sceptical of immigration, not who Truss' initial measures are focused on
    Yes, but no, becuase as I pointed out, it’s not just one type of voter with 1 motivation. Take the lower than average income voter who lurrrrrvs Brexit, switched from labour to Tory in hatred of confirmation vote remainer Starmer, that vote ain’t returning Labour any time soon regardless what Truss does.

    Also when you casually toss in “truss not keeping red wall” you forget incumbency bonus - so many new red wall MPs are brilliant bluff northern types beloved by all their constituents now regardless what Truss does.
    That voter does not necessarily have to go to Starmer, they could go to Farage and RefUK
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 25,214
    edited September 2022
    DavidL said:

    dixiedean said:

    Gavin Barwell scathing about the Budget on R5L.

    This was the Gavin Barwell who was Chief of Staff for Theresa May? That masterclass of effective government? Well that would be a concern obviously.
    He's a Conservative who hates his Party's Budget.
    He can speak as a Lord. There will be many MP's privately agreeing with him.
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 2,347
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    stodge said:


    And PB said the Monte Carlo Or Bust budget doesn’t have any support outside of the top 1% because all the rest of us are being shafted? Well 19% that’s 1 in 5 support it in the Opinium poll. And even more in delta poll love this budget.

    Maybe we ought to consider this budget moving the election polls in Truss favour over the next few weeks?

    I doubt anyone actually said that - there may well be a short to medium term lift for the Conservatives though we will hear the Labour response in the coming week.

    That will, I suspect, concentrate on the "fairness" of the proposals which I think will resonate over time. There's also the fact we've heard nothing on the spending side of the debate - are we looking at big cuts to public spending? I suspect seeing public services eroded won't sit too well with many people - it didn't in the mid-90s.
    If the Tories are re elected then spending cuts are likely.

    There is now a clear choice on economics at the next election, tax cuts and likely spending cuts with the Tories or higher taxes for the rich especially and higher public spending with Labour
    Let’s hope the next election is decided on economic arguments, and not on Woke, Brexit (ok, that’s partly an economic argument), the foreign, or any other Mail/Express prejudices.
    It likely will be, on Brexit there is little difference between Truss and Starmer now apart from on the NIP, Starmer is making Labour sing God Save the King at conference tomorrow and Truss is relatively socially liberal. So the big difference will be on economics
    If it is decided on economics, it could be bad for the Lib Dems.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 45,788
    EPG said:

    DavidL said:

    EPG said:

    DavidL said:

    carnforth said:

    WSJ gives a cautious welcome to the Kwarteng plan:

    https://archive.ph/gTumT

    Hard to disagree with this bit:

    "A dishonorable mention here goes to Bank of England Governor Andrew Bailey.
    If Ms. Truss’s policies pump up demand too much, the central bank would be forced to raise rates higher to counter inflationary pressure, Mr. Bailey warned in a letter to Mr. Kwarteng on Thursday that was widely interpreted as a swipe at the imminent tax-cut announcement.
    Every other central banker in the developed world would probably love to be in Mr. Bailey’s shoes right now. As they have tightened monetary policy to combat inflation, they all beg their political counterparts to enact supply-side pro-growth policies to ease the recessionary impact of tighter money. Mario Draghi said it in every speech when he ran the European Central Bank. Mr. Bailey has a Prime Minister who’s actually doing this, and all he can do is complain."

    He's really got to go. Never should have been appointed.
    Kwarteng's budget is not a supply-side policy. It's a huge stimulus, as is pretty clear from rate expectation and the currency drop. WSJ have just discovered another Reagan who cuts taxes, does nothing about spend, and lets some Bush equivalent in the future raise them again.
    Don't see that. Its clearly a supply side policy and it is clearly intended to offset the monetary tightening that the Bank is imposing (belatedly) to reduce inflation. Whether it is an optimal supply side policy is open to question; @MaxPB and I have both said that other kinds of stimulus would have had much better multiplier effects, but it is clearly supply side.
    Supply-side policies are a quasi-literary term of course. Some people use it to mean "cut taxes", but let's say for the sake of precision that they are about removing barriers to the productive capacities of the economy regardless of domestic demand. The argument would be that the tax cut would be a labour supply policy, in part to encourage workers with plenty of cash to work more instead of opting out because they pay huge tax bills. But its unfunded nature makes that really questionable, people don't seem convinced that taxes won't just rise again to cover growth in spend. It will definitely lead to extra demand - I don't buy the story that the idle rich will just store cash under their beds, neither do FX markets, they know some big stimulus is coming through extra profits plus spending. So I call it demand-side. It's partly in the eye of the beholder!
    The investment zones are definitely a supply side measure. I would agree that tax cuts can be looked at either way although I would give the benefit to the removal of the bonus limits for financial traders.
This discussion has been closed.