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With Truss about to start LAB becomes the “most seats” favourite – politicalbetting.com

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  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 4,876

    Leon said:

    Part of this is just appalling education

    Eg my older daughter with whom I have just been in Italy. She has just done Geography GCSE

    We were sitting in the Piazza Navona in Rome looking at Bernini’s famous Fountain of the Four Rivers. I explained what it represents (turns out she likes all this art stuff) and I mentioned the Danube and she said “what’s the Danube?”

    And this child is smart

    Wtf are we teaching them? The first year of Geography should be “learn all the countries, their capitals, the main rivers, the mountain ranges, the deserts, the oceans and seas, the historic roads and trade routes”. The BASICS

    Thus equipping them with a mental map of the world that will last for a lifetime. Like basic arithmetic. How come we STILL aren’t doing this?

    Do the same for cooking, adding up, shopping, banking, travelling, voting. BASIC LIFE SKILLS

    I did geography GCE in the 1970s. We didn’t get taught the names of rivers, seas, cities etc. It was all ox bow rivers, population densities etc, if I remember correctly.

    What you’re largely talking about is general knowledge. I got that by reading books of facts, dipping in and out of encyclopaedias etc. In other words, books at home and in libraries. I did that on rainy days when I couldn’t go out with my mates on our bikes or to play football etc. There were no mobile phones or computers back then.

    That’s a long way of saying you can’t blame the education system. It’s a much wider issue - and one that parents absolutely need to be aware of and do something about if they believe it’s important for their kids to know this stuff (which it is).

    I do agree on mental arithmetic, though. That should be part if the curriculum. We can’t leave it all to calculators.

    Yep, take the speeding course example. Use a calculator, fine, but have some idea of a reasonable answer to check for data entry errors. So 70mph versus 80mph will take 8/7 of the time which in an hour is fairly clearly going to be minutes, but under ten minutes (the extra 1/7 of an hour is under ten minutes, which would be 1/6, but not too far off).

    Many years ago I taught on a hydrology course. Quite a few students would cock up (in a way that was easily done) a calculation on outflow rates from what was described as a small pond in a drainage system and be happy with their answer of several cubic kilometres per hour.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 28,700
    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Part of this is just appalling education

    Eg my older daughter with whom I have just been in Italy. She has just done Geography GCSE

    We were sitting in the Piazza Navona in Rome looking at Bernini’s famous Fountain of the Four Rivers. I explained what it represents (turns out she likes all this art stuff) and I mentioned the Danube and she said “what’s the Danube?”

    And this child is smart

    Wtf are we teaching them? The first year of Geography should be “learn all the countries, their capitals, the main rivers, the mountain ranges, the deserts, the oceans and seas, the historic roads and trade routes”. The BASICS

    Thus equipping them with a mental map of the world that will last for a lifetime. Like basic arithmetic. How come we STILL aren’t doing this?

    Do the same for cooking, adding up, shopping, banking, travelling, voting. BASIC LIFE SKILLS

    My niece (a Scot) was studying comparative religion at university. I asked her for the date of the Scottish Reformation. Not only did she not provide a date, she didn’t have the faintest idea what the Scottish Reformation was. What on earth was Edinburgh University (an institution deeply involved in said events) teaching those young adults?
    I know. It’s shocking

    And unless they are deeply personally curious - and read history, science and politics etc etc, as young adults - they will never learn this stuff. And thus they will never learn the CONTEXT of everything around them. Why the world, and human society, is the way it is. And that is so important for a human life. Otherwise the world is just something that randomly happened and something that is done to you

    You become passive. You have no agency

    All teaching is selective in the sense that not everything can be taught. So curriculums choose one thing over another.

    My O Level Geography was based around the coal and steel industries in the UK, so largely made redundant by modern economic history.





    Along those lines, as well as drawing endless diagrams of deep coal mines and how blast furnaces worked, I remember making a model whaler harpooning a model whale when I was about 6 for school. Not the done thing today!
  • LeonLeon Posts: 30,379

    Leon said:

    Part of this is just appalling education

    Eg my older daughter with whom I have just been in Italy. She has just done Geography GCSE

    We were sitting in the Piazza Navona in Rome looking at Bernini’s famous Fountain of the Four Rivers. I explained what it represents (turns out she likes all this art stuff) and I mentioned the Danube and she said “what’s the Danube?”

    And this child is smart

    Wtf are we teaching them? The first year of Geography should be “learn all the countries, their capitals, the main rivers, the mountain ranges, the deserts, the oceans and seas, the historic roads and trade routes”. The BASICS

    Thus equipping them with a mental map of the world that will last for a lifetime. Like basic arithmetic. How come we STILL aren’t doing this?

    Do the same for cooking, adding up, shopping, banking, travelling, voting. BASIC LIFE SKILLS

    I did geography GCE in the 1970s. We didn’t get taught the names of rivers, seas, cities etc. It was all ox bow rivers, population densities etc, if I remember correctly.

    What you’re largely talking about is general knowledge. I got that by reading books of facts, dipping in and out of encyclopaedias etc. In other words, books at home and in libraries. I did that on rainy days when I couldn’t go out with my mates on our bikes or to play football etc. There were no mobile phones or computers back then.

    That’s a long way of saying you can’t blame the education system. It’s a much wider issue - and one that parents absolutely need to be aware of and do something about if they believe it’s important for their kids to know this stuff (which it is).

    I do agree on mental arithmetic, though. That should be part if the curriculum. We can’t leave it all to calculators.

    Yes. You’re the same as me. I had atlases and devoured encyclopaedias. I hungered to know more

    But what about kids where the family does not have a book in the house? And general knowledge is not dispersed? This IS a failing of the education system and it is so easily fixed

    Give every child a course in THE BASICS. From the mental map of the world to how to vote in elections (and why) and how a smartphone works to how to do online banking to how to cook a decent roast/curry/breakfast to why we are a democracy. Make it varied and interesting and fun. Basic Life Skills

    Two hours a week every week from 11-16
  • eekeek Posts: 22,039
    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    Part of this is just appalling education

    Eg my older daughter with whom I have just been in Italy. She has just done Geography GCSE

    We were sitting in the Piazza Navona in Rome looking at Bernini’s famous Fountain of the Four Rivers. I explained what it represents (turns out she likes all this art stuff) and I mentioned the Danube and she said “what’s the Danube?”

    And this child is smart

    Wtf are we teaching them? The first year of Geography should be “learn all the countries, their capitals, the main rivers, the mountain ranges, the deserts, the oceans and seas, the historic roads and trade routes”. The BASICS

    Thus equipping them with a mental map of the world that will last for a lifetime. Like basic arithmetic. How come we STILL aren’t doing this?

    Do the same for cooking, adding up, shopping, banking, travelling, voting. BASIC LIFE SKILLS


    This is a recurring (and timeless) complaint of the old about the young, that everything is in decline, they don't know anything, that the education system is failing, etc etc.
    We need to learn things by rote because if we didn't know it looking it up was a grade A pain.

    That simply isn't true anymore when (provided you can identify appropriate search criteria) all information is available anywhere you can get a mobile phone signal...
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 29,101
    One for the Rangers fans this morning...


  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 36,673
    edited August 2022

    eek said:

    Seems the Treasury and the new Chancellor aren't doing any research as they scramble for solutions

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/08/24/fracking-could-ease-soaring-energy-bills-gets-immediate-green/

    How many times do you need to be told the geology round here doesn't allow cheap fracking - so it's not going to solve anything.

    Could solve finding some big donors for the Tory party to replace some of their oligarchs.
    As prime fracking territory in the UK is around old coalfields, hence "Red Wall" seats, it is the fast track to lost elections.
  • Scott_xP said:

    TOPPING said:

    They say no plan survives contact with the enemy. It's worse than that because we faced the enemy without even a plan. No surprises it is now chaotic as there is no roadmap to try to follow; Brexit now consists of whatever comes into our politicians' heads, announced at a time they think will be most beneficial to them.

    Brexit was never a solution to any problems we faced, so it is not surprising it doesn't "work"
    That is saying:

    Democracy was never a solution to any problems we faced, so it is not surprising it doesn't "work".
  • LeonLeon Posts: 30,379
    One thing that depresses me about Gen Z is their passive incuriosity. They don’t really WANT to know stuff

    I wonder if this is a function of smartphones. All the world’s information is available in 3 seconds of tapping. Why bother learning it? Or reading about it?

    Yet this attitude makes you complacent and inert. The world is shit that happens. Whatever. Etc
  • eekeek Posts: 22,039

    Scott_xP said:

    TOPPING said:

    They say no plan survives contact with the enemy. It's worse than that because we faced the enemy without even a plan. No surprises it is now chaotic as there is no roadmap to try to follow; Brexit now consists of whatever comes into our politicians' heads, announced at a time they think will be most beneficial to them.

    Brexit was never a solution to any problems we faced, so it is not surprising it doesn't "work"
    That is saying:

    Democracy was never a solution to any problems we faced, so it is not surprising it doesn't "work".
    No it's not.

    Brexit was presented as a solution to a whole set of problems and while it may be a fix to a couple of those problems it can't fix problems that had nothing to do with EU membership.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 11,636
    One in four Britons (23%) have had to cut back on key essentials - this rises to 39% of those in the lowest income households

    A further 43% of Brits have had to make cutbacks on non-essentia
    DearPB said:

    algarkirk said:

    algarkirk said:

    Sean_F said:

    Just read that Matthew Parris piece in The Times. Jeepers creepers.

    - “She’s crackers. It isn’t going to work.”

    Loving this blue on blue action.

    Blue on blue action has been the norm for decades.
    Isn't Parris a Lib Dem now?
    I don't know if Parris is in a party, but it is salutary to think that not long ago he was the incarnation of thoughtful mainstream one nation Toryism.

    I am by instinct a one nation Tory - Parris, Hurd, Heseltine and Clarke are our representatives.

    Their epic failure is to fail over 40 years to understand how to shape the EU so that is was what the UK both needed and could accept. This should have been a top exercise in moderate statecraft and democratic accountability.

    This problem has driven Parris slightly deranged because of how much denial he has to engage in, and for now destroyed the heart of the Tory party.

    SKS is the nearest there is to this tradition available, though not very near. He gets my vote.

    This is an interesting take. I think that the moderate pragmatic euro-realist tradition in the old one nation Tory party had negotiated what they thought was a decent compromise - no Schengen or the euro, acting as a brake on federalist tendencies in Brussels etc. The problem was that there was a large minority in the country, rapidly becoming a majority in the party, who simply were not reconciled to EU membership in any form. Add to that a population tired of austerity and wanting to give Cameron a kicking, and a rubbish Remain campaign, and voila, Brexit. In other words, I think they did their best, but it wasn't good enough. What now, though?
    Vote Red Tory. He just explicitly said so.
    That's a slightly slang version of 'Vote for Buttskellism' but you correctly identify that the Overton window is in fact very narrow once two things are accepted: the continuation of the Union with Scotland, England and Wales, and the non reversal of Brexit.

    It is only an intuition - opposition never proves anything, but it seems to me that SKS may well be more honest, more competent and less in hock to absurd and corrupt people than the Tories at this moment.

    Let's hope that the EFTA EEA compromise will emerge in time. SKS clearly thinks he can't win on such a platform at the moment.

    It's taken this leadership campaign to make the leap. I was a member of the Conservative Party from 18 to 45ish, my first wife ran for Parliament twice and I was a Conservative Council Leader in my 20s.

    I want Labour to win next time.

    And my self justification is that the Labour Party is a relatively conservative party that will enact sensible measured social democratic reform; I won't really agree with any of it, but it will be less damaging than the confused, ideological, incompetent, corrupt, revolutionary brand of Conservativism on offer.
    Hope Scottish Labour activists and voters are reading this! 😄


    - “… the Labour Party is a relatively conservative party…”

    You said it.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 5,736

    algarkirk said:

    Sean_F said:

    Just read that Matthew Parris piece in The Times. Jeepers creepers.

    - “She’s crackers. It isn’t going to work.”

    Loving this blue on blue action.

    Blue on blue action has been the norm for decades.
    Isn't Parris a Lib Dem now?
    I don't know if Parris is in a party, but it is salutary to think that not long ago he was the incarnation of thoughtful mainstream one nation Toryism.

    I am by instinct a one nation Tory - Parris, Hurd, Heseltine and Clarke are our representatives.

    Their epic failure is to fail over 40 years to understand how to shape the EU so that is was what the UK both needed and could accept. This should have been a top exercise in moderate statecraft and democratic accountability.

    This problem has driven Parris slightly deranged because of how much denial he has to engage in, and for now destroyed the heart of the Tory party.

    SKS is the nearest there is to this tradition available, though not very near. He gets my vote.


    That’s an interesting analysis.

    I think (particularly given the characters you’ve mentioned) elitist snobbery played a big part.

    They simply wanted to play at the table with their fellows, and didn’t really think it was the business of the electorate to worry their pretty little heads about it.

    I can see why @algarkirk is going to vote Red Tory. The two parties have morphed into the same perverse beast. The FAV for next Lab Leader Burnham was visiting the Jock colony this week, behaving in exactly the disdainful, patrician, elitist, snobby fashion so personified by Hurd & Co.

    Gordon thinks he’s being clever. It’s the same self-delusion that lead his henchman Jim Murphy sell consultancy services on “how to win elections”. Very drôle.
    Even HYUFD might go Lab if SKS carries on with the khaki malarkey.


    Loos like the other guys are drawing raffle tickets out of the helmet - the winning ticket gets to accompany Keir to the front line.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 11,636

    Anyway, as a distraction from our current vale of tears, who is this hipster dude? Actually quite a strong connection to a big part of said vale.



    Gladly, the cross-eyed bear?
  • It's very early days, but if Truss were to follow the advice of the right-wing press, and some of her less-sensible MPs, the Tories would fight the next election on a three-pronged platform of:

    Let's save Brexit!
    Let's defeat Woke!
    Let's cut taxes!

    I suspect such a platform would lead to ignominious defeat as voters contemplated the fall in their living standards and the poor quality of public services. But who knows.

    I couldn't care less about 'defeating woke' and Brexit is done, but if the voters want to vote for higher taxes to give that money to public services, when taxes are at a 74 year high, then let them vote Labour for that.

    If the Tories are just blue Labour, then what's the point of them? Why bother winning if you're going to implement the oppositions policy anyway, other than furthering the ambitions of MPs to hold red boxes themselves into of being left in the shadows.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 28,700

    algarkirk said:

    Sean_F said:

    Just read that Matthew Parris piece in The Times. Jeepers creepers.

    - “She’s crackers. It isn’t going to work.”

    Loving this blue on blue action.

    Blue on blue action has been the norm for decades.
    Isn't Parris a Lib Dem now?
    I don't know if Parris is in a party, but it is salutary to think that not long ago he was the incarnation of thoughtful mainstream one nation Toryism.

    I am by instinct a one nation Tory - Parris, Hurd, Heseltine and Clarke are our representatives.

    Their epic failure is to fail over 40 years to understand how to shape the EU so that is was what the UK both needed and could accept. This should have been a top exercise in moderate statecraft and democratic accountability.

    This problem has driven Parris slightly deranged because of how much denial he has to engage in, and for now destroyed the heart of the Tory party.

    SKS is the nearest there is to this tradition available, though not very near. He gets my vote.


    That’s an interesting analysis.

    I think (particularly given the characters you’ve mentioned) elitist snobbery played a big part.

    They simply wanted to play at the table with their fellows, and didn’t really think it was the business of the electorate to worry their pretty little heads about it.

    I can see why @algarkirk is going to vote Red Tory. The two parties have morphed into the same perverse beast. The FAV for next Lab Leader Burnham was visiting the Jock colony this week, behaving in exactly the disdainful, patrician, elitist, snobby fashion so personified by Hurd & Co.

    Gordon thinks he’s being clever. It’s the same self-delusion that lead his henchman Jim Murphy sell consultancy services on “how to win elections”. Very drôle.
    Even HYUFD might go Lab if SKS carries on with the khaki malarkey.


    Loos like the other guys are drawing raffle tickets out of the helmet - the winning ticket gets to accompany Keir to the front line.
    Nice typo ...
  • TazTaz Posts: 6,545

    Sandpit said:

    Truss has so many big problems I wonder if her team know which to deny first?
    Not supported by most Tory MPs
    Cost of Living catastrophe where the solutions are politically or economically untenable
    A coterie of the wort members of Johnson's government plus a choice of 2019 mince to promote

    If they seriously try and market themselves as a "new" government I expect the response will get pretty brutal. No government would get through this winter without scars. None. But across Europe governments are showing voters they understand the crisis, they are prepared to do whatever it takes, and are putting lots of money into it.

    The only money Trussteam are putting up is new debt to give themselves a tax cut, and opening a credit line in the Fetlife store.

    Wow, there’s already a Truss Derangement Syndrome, a week before she’s even been confirmed in the job.
    I think TDS - if it exists outside your fevered imagination - is what Tory MPs are feeling.

    The last time a PM was imposed over the wishes of the ruling party MPs was...?
    As it stands Truss has more declared MP support than Sunak does.

    In the final round of the MP voting Mordaunt was eliminated, but of course her votes were never redistributed. Mordaunt is very firmly on Team Truss not Team Sunak, as are more of her own supporters that have subsequently declared a side, so based on what MPs are saying they wish, if there were a final MP-only round of voting now, then Truss would win and Sunak would lose.
    MP's cynically rushing to the aid of the winner.

    Had Rishi Sunak been winning there would have been switchers the other way.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 36,673
    eek said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    Part of this is just appalling education

    Eg my older daughter with whom I have just been in Italy. She has just done Geography GCSE

    We were sitting in the Piazza Navona in Rome looking at Bernini’s famous Fountain of the Four Rivers. I explained what it represents (turns out she likes all this art stuff) and I mentioned the Danube and she said “what’s the Danube?”

    And this child is smart

    Wtf are we teaching them? The first year of Geography should be “learn all the countries, their capitals, the main rivers, the mountain ranges, the deserts, the oceans and seas, the historic roads and trade routes”. The BASICS

    Thus equipping them with a mental map of the world that will last for a lifetime. Like basic arithmetic. How come we STILL aren’t doing this?

    Do the same for cooking, adding up, shopping, banking, travelling, voting. BASIC LIFE SKILLS


    This is a recurring (and timeless) complaint of the old about the young, that everything is in decline, they don't know anything, that the education system is failing, etc etc.
    We need to learn things by rote because if we didn't know it looking it up was a grade A pain.

    That simply isn't true anymore when (provided you can identify appropriate search criteria) all information is available anywhere you can get a mobile phone signal...
    I do run across this with my students, and certainly Dr Google can provide a diagnosis. The problem is that a doctor needs enough understanding of anatomy, physiology and pathology to know what questions to ask of Dr Google.
  • eekeek Posts: 22,039
    Foxy said:

    eek said:

    Seems the Treasury and the new Chancellor aren't doing any research as they scramble for solutions

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/08/24/fracking-could-ease-soaring-energy-bills-gets-immediate-green/

    How many times do you need to be told the geology round here doesn't allow cheap fracking - so it's not going to solve anything.

    Could solve finding some big donors for the Tory party to replace some of their oligarchs.
    As prime fracking territory in the UK is around old coalfields, hence "Red Wall" seats, it is the fast track to lost elections.
    There is no prime fracking territory in the UK - if there was one of the current attempts might have actually achieved something.

    My current viewpoint of fracking is that we are still going "it works over there" so should work over here without asking - why does it work there and why have all attempts over here failed so miserably...
  • eek said:

    Scott_xP said:

    TOPPING said:

    They say no plan survives contact with the enemy. It's worse than that because we faced the enemy without even a plan. No surprises it is now chaotic as there is no roadmap to try to follow; Brexit now consists of whatever comes into our politicians' heads, announced at a time they think will be most beneficial to them.

    Brexit was never a solution to any problems we faced, so it is not surprising it doesn't "work"
    That is saying:

    Democracy was never a solution to any problems we faced, so it is not surprising it doesn't "work".
    No it's not.

    Brexit was presented as a solution to a whole set of problems and while it may be a fix to a couple of those problems it can't fix problems that had nothing to do with EU membership.
    Brexit was presented as taking back control.

    With control taken back, its up to who we elect now to fix any problems that may or may not then be fixed.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 30,379
    edited August 2022

    Anyway, as a distraction from our current vale of tears, who is this hipster dude? Actually quite a strong connection to a big part of said vale.



    Gladly, the cross-eyed bear?

    I wonder if it’s a young Tolstoy. Certainly looks like a dashing officer in a Tsarist army


    But young Tolstoy was too long ago for photography? I’m doing this without googling..
  • eek said:

    Foxy said:

    eek said:

    Seems the Treasury and the new Chancellor aren't doing any research as they scramble for solutions

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/08/24/fracking-could-ease-soaring-energy-bills-gets-immediate-green/

    How many times do you need to be told the geology round here doesn't allow cheap fracking - so it's not going to solve anything.

    Could solve finding some big donors for the Tory party to replace some of their oligarchs.
    As prime fracking territory in the UK is around old coalfields, hence "Red Wall" seats, it is the fast track to lost elections.
    There is no prime fracking territory in the UK - if there was one of the current attempts might have actually achieved something.

    My current viewpoint of fracking is that we are still going "it works over there" so should work over here without asking - why does it work there and why have all attempts over here failed so miserably...
    Politics.

    My viewpoint of fracking is there's no commercial failure of politics, what there is though is NIMBYs and those who pander to them standing in the way.

    Drop the NIMBYism and I expect fracking would be happening, right now.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 32,645
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Part of this is just appalling education

    Eg my older daughter with whom I have just been in Italy. She has just done Geography GCSE

    We were sitting in the Piazza Navona in Rome looking at Bernini’s famous Fountain of the Four Rivers. I explained what it represents (turns out she likes all this art stuff) and I mentioned the Danube and she said “what’s the Danube?”

    And this child is smart

    Wtf are we teaching them? The first year of Geography should be “learn all the countries, their capitals, the main rivers, the mountain ranges, the deserts, the oceans and seas, the historic roads and trade routes”. The BASICS

    Thus equipping them with a mental map of the world that will last for a lifetime. Like basic arithmetic. How come we STILL aren’t doing this?

    Do the same for cooking, adding up, shopping, banking, travelling, voting. BASIC LIFE SKILLS

    I did geography GCE in the 1970s. We didn’t get taught the names of rivers, seas, cities etc. It was all ox bow rivers, population densities etc, if I remember correctly.

    What you’re largely talking about is general knowledge. I got that by reading books of facts, dipping in and out of encyclopaedias etc. In other words, books at home and in libraries. I did that on rainy days when I couldn’t go out with my mates on our bikes or to play football etc. There were no mobile phones or computers back then.

    That’s a long way of saying you can’t blame the education system. It’s a much wider issue - and one that parents absolutely need to be aware of and do something about if they believe it’s important for their kids to know this stuff (which it is).

    I do agree on mental arithmetic, though. That should be part if the curriculum. We can’t leave it all to calculators.

    Yes. You’re the same as me. I had atlases and devoured encyclopaedias. I hungered to know more

    But what about kids where the family does not have a book in the house? And general knowledge is not dispersed? This IS a failing of the education system and it is so easily fixed

    Give every child a course in THE BASICS. From the mental map of the world to how to vote in elections (and why) and how a smartphone works to how to do online banking to how to cook a decent roast/curry/breakfast to why we are a democracy. Make it varied and interesting and fun. Basic Life Skills

    Two hours a week every week from 11-16
    It's odd that an author such as yourself thinks that the answer to kids having no books in the house is 'schools'.

    You should team up with Dolly Parton so that every kid in Britain gets a free Tom Knox thriller. That'll certainly teach them some geography. And other things ... ;)

    As an aside, I know the Ordnance Survey used to give every 12-year old kid an Ordnance Survey map. Don't know if they still do.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 30,379
    Hubba Hubba Hubba
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 5,736
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Part of this is just appalling education

    Eg my older daughter with whom I have just been in Italy. She has just done Geography GCSE

    We were sitting in the Piazza Navona in Rome looking at Bernini’s famous Fountain of the Four Rivers. I explained what it represents (turns out she likes all this art stuff) and I mentioned the Danube and she said “what’s the Danube?”

    And this child is smart

    Wtf are we teaching them? The first year of Geography should be “learn all the countries, their capitals, the main rivers, the mountain ranges, the deserts, the oceans and seas, the historic roads and trade routes”. The BASICS

    Thus equipping them with a mental map of the world that will last for a lifetime. Like basic arithmetic. How come we STILL aren’t doing this?

    Do the same for cooking, adding up, shopping, banking, travelling, voting. BASIC LIFE SKILLS

    I did geography GCE in the 1970s. We didn’t get taught the names of rivers, seas, cities etc. It was all ox bow rivers, population densities etc, if I remember correctly.

    What you’re largely talking about is general knowledge. I got that by reading books of facts, dipping in and out of encyclopaedias etc. In other words, books at home and in libraries. I did that on rainy days when I couldn’t go out with my mates on our bikes or to play football etc. There were no mobile phones or computers back then.

    That’s a long way of saying you can’t blame the education system. It’s a much wider issue - and one that parents absolutely need to be aware of and do something about if they believe it’s important for their kids to know this stuff (which it is).

    I do agree on mental arithmetic, though. That should be part if the curriculum. We can’t leave it all to calculators.

    Yes. You’re the same as me. I had atlases and devoured encyclopaedias. I hungered to know more

    But what about kids where the family does not have a book in the house? And general knowledge is not dispersed? This IS a failing of the education system and it is so easily fixed

    Give every child a course in THE BASICS. From the mental map of the world to how to vote in elections (and why) and how a smartphone works to how to do online banking to how to cook a decent roast/curry/breakfast to why we are a democracy. Make it varied and interesting and fun. Basic Life Skills

    Two hours a week every week from 11-16
    I agree with you, though there's one consolation.
    At least they have an in-depth understanding of critical race theory, apparently.
  • ClippPClippP Posts: 1,368
    Leon said:

    Part of this is just appalling education

    Eg my older daughter with whom I have just been in Italy. She has just done Geography GCSE

    We were sitting in the Piazza Navona in Rome looking at Bernini’s famous Fountain of the Four Rivers. I explained what it represents (turns out she likes all this art stuff) and I mentioned the Danube and she said “what’s the Danube?”

    And this child is smart

    Wtf are we teaching them? The first year of Geography should be “learn all the countries, their capitals, the main rivers, the mountain ranges, the deserts, the oceans and seas, the historic roads and trade routes”. The BASICS

    Thus equipping them with a mental map of the world that will last for a lifetime. Like basic arithmetic. How come we STILL aren’t doing this?

    Do the same for cooking, adding up, shopping, banking, travelling, voting. BASIC LIFE SKILLS

    Facts are pretty useless by themselves though. Children need to know what they actually mean, how to interpret them. That means learning how to think.

    For example, there was a very large river in China which was mentioned here on PB the other day, where the water is starting to run a bit low. This was discussed on here in some detail, and it was much more interesting and useful than the name of the river
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 5,736
    Carnyx said:

    algarkirk said:

    Sean_F said:

    Just read that Matthew Parris piece in The Times. Jeepers creepers.

    - “She’s crackers. It isn’t going to work.”

    Loving this blue on blue action.

    Blue on blue action has been the norm for decades.
    Isn't Parris a Lib Dem now?
    I don't know if Parris is in a party, but it is salutary to think that not long ago he was the incarnation of thoughtful mainstream one nation Toryism.

    I am by instinct a one nation Tory - Parris, Hurd, Heseltine and Clarke are our representatives.

    Their epic failure is to fail over 40 years to understand how to shape the EU so that is was what the UK both needed and could accept. This should have been a top exercise in moderate statecraft and democratic accountability.

    This problem has driven Parris slightly deranged because of how much denial he has to engage in, and for now destroyed the heart of the Tory party.

    SKS is the nearest there is to this tradition available, though not very near. He gets my vote.


    That’s an interesting analysis.

    I think (particularly given the characters you’ve mentioned) elitist snobbery played a big part.

    They simply wanted to play at the table with their fellows, and didn’t really think it was the business of the electorate to worry their pretty little heads about it.

    I can see why @algarkirk is going to vote Red Tory. The two parties have morphed into the same perverse beast. The FAV for next Lab Leader Burnham was visiting the Jock colony this week, behaving in exactly the disdainful, patrician, elitist, snobby fashion so personified by Hurd & Co.

    Gordon thinks he’s being clever. It’s the same self-delusion that lead his henchman Jim Murphy sell consultancy services on “how to win elections”. Very drôle.
    Even HYUFD might go Lab if SKS carries on with the khaki malarkey.


    Loos like the other guys are drawing raffle tickets out of the helmet - the winning ticket gets to accompany Keir to the front line.
    Nice typo ...
    Shit. Sorry.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 36,673
    Leon said:

    Anyway, as a distraction from our current vale of tears, who is this hipster dude? Actually quite a strong connection to a big part of said vale.



    Gladly, the cross-eyed bear?

    I wonder if it’s a young Tolstoy. Certainly looks like a dashing officer in a Tsarist army


    But young Tolstoy was too long ago for photography? I’m doing this without googling..
    By the look of the sideburns and hairstyle, I would date this to the 1870's or so.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 28,700

    eek said:

    Foxy said:

    eek said:

    Seems the Treasury and the new Chancellor aren't doing any research as they scramble for solutions

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/08/24/fracking-could-ease-soaring-energy-bills-gets-immediate-green/

    How many times do you need to be told the geology round here doesn't allow cheap fracking - so it's not going to solve anything.

    Could solve finding some big donors for the Tory party to replace some of their oligarchs.
    As prime fracking territory in the UK is around old coalfields, hence "Red Wall" seats, it is the fast track to lost elections.
    There is no prime fracking territory in the UK - if there was one of the current attempts might have actually achieved something.

    My current viewpoint of fracking is that we are still going "it works over there" so should work over here without asking - why does it work there and why have all attempts over here failed so miserably...
    Politics.

    My viewpoint of fracking is there's no commercial failure of politics, what there is though is NIMBYs and those who pander to them standing in the way.

    Drop the NIMBYism and I expect fracking would be happening, right now.
    POlitics doesn't change geology. That's the problem. Faulting, previous intrusions, cooking of shale by natural means, and so on. It;s not like the great sedimentary basins of North America.
  • Leon said:

    One thing that depresses me about Gen Z is their passive incuriosity. They don’t really WANT to know stuff

    I wonder if this is a function of smartphones. All the world’s information is available in 3 seconds of tapping. Why bother learning it? Or reading about it?

    Yet this attitude makes you complacent and inert. The world is shit that happens. Whatever. Etc

    Schools have got to take some of the blame there.

    We've got a lot (and I mean A LOT) more efficient at getting pupils good grades since the 1980s. That's what happens when exam results become such a life-or-death thing for schools, heads and individual teachers.

    So there's a lot more teaching model answers to the test, which is the opposite of curiosity. Thing 1 is in lower secondary and is beginning to bump up against the "this is boring to write but necessary to get the marks" ceiling. She's smart enough to know that it's a game that is being played and needs to be played, but many don't.

    But also, kid's learning schedules are a lot more managed now than they used to be. I can understand why, but it doesn't leave as much time and energy for them to get curious about a quirky passion. Which is a shame.

    Oh, and maybe the reduction in public libraries was a mistake. Access to the internet over smartphones just isn't the same.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 28,700

    Carnyx said:

    algarkirk said:

    Sean_F said:

    Just read that Matthew Parris piece in The Times. Jeepers creepers.

    - “She’s crackers. It isn’t going to work.”

    Loving this blue on blue action.

    Blue on blue action has been the norm for decades.
    Isn't Parris a Lib Dem now?
    I don't know if Parris is in a party, but it is salutary to think that not long ago he was the incarnation of thoughtful mainstream one nation Toryism.

    I am by instinct a one nation Tory - Parris, Hurd, Heseltine and Clarke are our representatives.

    Their epic failure is to fail over 40 years to understand how to shape the EU so that is was what the UK both needed and could accept. This should have been a top exercise in moderate statecraft and democratic accountability.

    This problem has driven Parris slightly deranged because of how much denial he has to engage in, and for now destroyed the heart of the Tory party.

    SKS is the nearest there is to this tradition available, though not very near. He gets my vote.


    That’s an interesting analysis.

    I think (particularly given the characters you’ve mentioned) elitist snobbery played a big part.

    They simply wanted to play at the table with their fellows, and didn’t really think it was the business of the electorate to worry their pretty little heads about it.

    I can see why @algarkirk is going to vote Red Tory. The two parties have morphed into the same perverse beast. The FAV for next Lab Leader Burnham was visiting the Jock colony this week, behaving in exactly the disdainful, patrician, elitist, snobby fashion so personified by Hurd & Co.

    Gordon thinks he’s being clever. It’s the same self-delusion that lead his henchman Jim Murphy sell consultancy services on “how to win elections”. Very drôle.
    Even HYUFD might go Lab if SKS carries on with the khaki malarkey.


    Loos like the other guys are drawing raffle tickets out of the helmet - the winning ticket gets to accompany Keir to the front line.
    Nice typo ...
    Shit. Sorry.
    Not at all. The Somme gets all the attention these days.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 11,636

    algarkirk said:

    Sean_F said:

    Just read that Matthew Parris piece in The Times. Jeepers creepers.

    - “She’s crackers. It isn’t going to work.”

    Loving this blue on blue action.

    Blue on blue action has been the norm for decades.
    Isn't Parris a Lib Dem now?
    I don't know if Parris is in a party, but it is salutary to think that not long ago he was the incarnation of thoughtful mainstream one nation Toryism.

    I am by instinct a one nation Tory - Parris, Hurd, Heseltine and Clarke are our representatives.

    Their epic failure is to fail over 40 years to understand how to shape the EU so that is was what the UK both needed and could accept. This should have been a top exercise in moderate statecraft and democratic accountability.

    This problem has driven Parris slightly deranged because of how much denial he has to engage in, and for now destroyed the heart of the Tory party.

    SKS is the nearest there is to this tradition available, though not very near. He gets my vote.


    That’s an interesting analysis.

    I think (particularly given the characters you’ve mentioned) elitist snobbery played a big part.

    They simply wanted to play at the table with their fellows, and didn’t really think it was the business of the electorate to worry their pretty little heads about it.

    I can see why @algarkirk is going to vote Red Tory. The two parties have morphed into the same perverse beast. The FAV for next Lab Leader Burnham was visiting the Jock colony this week, behaving in exactly the disdainful, patrician, elitist, snobby fashion so personified by Hurd & Co.

    Gordon thinks he’s being clever. It’s the same self-delusion that lead his henchman Jim Murphy sell consultancy services on “how to win elections”. Very drôle.
    Even HYUFD might go Lab if SKS carries on with the khaki malarkey.


    Loos like the other guys are drawing raffle tickets out of the helmet - the winning ticket gets to accompany Keir to the front line.
    He’s going to knock on Gillian Duffy’s door and ask for her vote?
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 10,146
    edited August 2022
    Carnyx said:

    eek said:

    Foxy said:

    eek said:

    Seems the Treasury and the new Chancellor aren't doing any research as they scramble for solutions

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/08/24/fracking-could-ease-soaring-energy-bills-gets-immediate-green/

    How many times do you need to be told the geology round here doesn't allow cheap fracking - so it's not going to solve anything.

    Could solve finding some big donors for the Tory party to replace some of their oligarchs.
    As prime fracking territory in the UK is around old coalfields, hence "Red Wall" seats, it is the fast track to lost elections.
    There is no prime fracking territory in the UK - if there was one of the current attempts might have actually achieved something.

    My current viewpoint of fracking is that we are still going "it works over there" so should work over here without asking - why does it work there and why have all attempts over here failed so miserably...
    Politics.

    My viewpoint of fracking is there's no commercial failure of politics, what there is though is NIMBYs and those who pander to them standing in the way.

    Drop the NIMBYism and I expect fracking would be happening, right now.
    POlitics doesn't change geology. That's the problem. Faulting, previous intrusions, cooking of shale by natural means, and so on. It;s not like the great sedimentary basins of North America.
    If geology is the issue then give it a green light, drop the NINBYism and it won't happen as it's not viable.

    Or geology is an excuse.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 30,379
    ClippP said:

    Leon said:

    Part of this is just appalling education

    Eg my older daughter with whom I have just been in Italy. She has just done Geography GCSE

    We were sitting in the Piazza Navona in Rome looking at Bernini’s famous Fountain of the Four Rivers. I explained what it represents (turns out she likes all this art stuff) and I mentioned the Danube and she said “what’s the Danube?”

    And this child is smart

    Wtf are we teaching them? The first year of Geography should be “learn all the countries, their capitals, the main rivers, the mountain ranges, the deserts, the oceans and seas, the historic roads and trade routes”. The BASICS

    Thus equipping them with a mental map of the world that will last for a lifetime. Like basic arithmetic. How come we STILL aren’t doing this?

    Do the same for cooking, adding up, shopping, banking, travelling, voting. BASIC LIFE SKILLS

    Facts are pretty useless by themselves though. Children need to know what they actually mean, how to interpret them. That means learning how to think.

    For example, there was a very large river in China which was mentioned here on PB the other day, where the water is starting to run a bit low. This was discussed on here in some detail, and it was much more interesting and useful than the name of the river
    Yes but you need the name first or you can’t talk about it. And you need to know where the river is, and have a mental map of China, and where China is, so you can put it in context. This is not hard to grasp. This should be taught as part of basic life skills - “why we need basic life skills”

  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 31,817
    Foxy said:

    eek said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    Part of this is just appalling education

    Eg my older daughter with whom I have just been in Italy. She has just done Geography GCSE

    We were sitting in the Piazza Navona in Rome looking at Bernini’s famous Fountain of the Four Rivers. I explained what it represents (turns out she likes all this art stuff) and I mentioned the Danube and she said “what’s the Danube?”

    And this child is smart

    Wtf are we teaching them? The first year of Geography should be “learn all the countries, their capitals, the main rivers, the mountain ranges, the deserts, the oceans and seas, the historic roads and trade routes”. The BASICS

    Thus equipping them with a mental map of the world that will last for a lifetime. Like basic arithmetic. How come we STILL aren’t doing this?

    Do the same for cooking, adding up, shopping, banking, travelling, voting. BASIC LIFE SKILLS


    This is a recurring (and timeless) complaint of the old about the young, that everything is in decline, they don't know anything, that the education system is failing, etc etc.
    We need to learn things by rote because if we didn't know it looking it up was a grade A pain.

    That simply isn't true anymore when (provided you can identify appropriate search criteria) all information is available anywhere you can get a mobile phone signal...
    I do run across this with my students, and certainly Dr Google can provide a diagnosis. The problem is that a doctor needs enough understanding of anatomy, physiology and pathology to know what questions to ask of Dr Google.
    The complaint about not spotting order of magnitude errors and just believing the calculator is an old one.

    From talking with my daughters, the tricks for getting approximate answers aren’t emphasised in the modern school curriculum.

    My wife corrected a nurse for a medicine dose for my daughter once, for example. Order of magnitude too small…
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 35,788

    Anyway, as a distraction from our current vale of tears, who is this hipster dude? Actually quite a strong connection to a big part of said vale.



    Is he the guy from Supergrass?
    Asctually a strong resemblance to a Britpop period actor. If they ever do a Young ******* film, Jonathan Rhys Meyer should be a shoo in for the part.



  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 72,844

    eek said:

    Foxy said:

    eek said:

    Seems the Treasury and the new Chancellor aren't doing any research as they scramble for solutions

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/08/24/fracking-could-ease-soaring-energy-bills-gets-immediate-green/

    How many times do you need to be told the geology round here doesn't allow cheap fracking - so it's not going to solve anything.

    Could solve finding some big donors for the Tory party to replace some of their oligarchs.
    As prime fracking territory in the UK is around old coalfields, hence "Red Wall" seats, it is the fast track to lost elections.
    There is no prime fracking territory in the UK - if there was one of the current attempts might have actually achieved something.

    My current viewpoint of fracking is that we are still going "it works over there" so should work over here without asking - why does it work there and why have all attempts over here failed so miserably...
    Politics.

    My viewpoint of fracking is there's no commercial failure of politics, what there is though is NIMBYs and those who pander to them standing in the way.

    Drop the NIMBYism and I expect fracking would be happening, right now.
    I think this is wrong, @rcs1000 concluded the geology of the UK just wasn't up to the job and he's no NIMBY/greeny.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 32,235

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Part of this is just appalling education

    Eg my older daughter with whom I have just been in Italy. She has just done Geography GCSE

    We were sitting in the Piazza Navona in Rome looking at Bernini’s famous Fountain of the Four Rivers. I explained what it represents (turns out she likes all this art stuff) and I mentioned the Danube and she said “what’s the Danube?”

    And this child is smart

    Wtf are we teaching them? The first year of Geography should be “learn all the countries, their capitals, the main rivers, the mountain ranges, the deserts, the oceans and seas, the historic roads and trade routes”. The BASICS

    Thus equipping them with a mental map of the world that will last for a lifetime. Like basic arithmetic. How come we STILL aren’t doing this?

    Do the same for cooking, adding up, shopping, banking, travelling, voting. BASIC LIFE SKILLS

    I did geography GCE in the 1970s. We didn’t get taught the names of rivers, seas, cities etc. It was all ox bow rivers, population densities etc, if I remember correctly.

    What you’re largely talking about is general knowledge. I got that by reading books of facts, dipping in and out of encyclopaedias etc. In other words, books at home and in libraries. I did that on rainy days when I couldn’t go out with my mates on our bikes or to play football etc. There were no mobile phones or computers back then.

    That’s a long way of saying you can’t blame the education system. It’s a much wider issue - and one that parents absolutely need to be aware of and do something about if they believe it’s important for their kids to know this stuff (which it is).

    I do agree on mental arithmetic, though. That should be part if the curriculum. We can’t leave it all to calculators.

    Yes. You’re the same as me. I had atlases and devoured encyclopaedias. I hungered to know more

    But what about kids where the family does not have a book in the house? And general knowledge is not dispersed? This IS a failing of the education system and it is so easily fixed

    Give every child a course in THE BASICS. From the mental map of the world to how to vote in elections (and why) and how a smartphone works to how to do online banking to how to cook a decent roast/curry/breakfast to why we are a democracy. Make it varied and interesting and fun. Basic Life Skills

    Two hours a week every week from 11-16
    It's odd that an author such as yourself thinks that the answer to kids having no books in the house is 'schools'.

    You should team up with Dolly Parton so that every kid in Britain gets a free Tom Knox thriller. That'll certainly teach them some geography. And other things ... ;)

    .
    Swedish boiling and efforts to breed apes with women come to mind.
  • Leon said:

    Anyway, as a distraction from our current vale of tears, who is this hipster dude? Actually quite a strong connection to a big part of said vale.



    Gladly, the cross-eyed bear?

    I wonder if it’s a young Tolstoy. Certainly looks like a dashing officer in a Tsarist army


    But young Tolstoy was too long ago for photography? I’m doing this without googling..
    He died a very old man in 1910, I think, so the timeline probably works.

  • LeonLeon Posts: 30,379

    Anyway, as a distraction from our current vale of tears, who is this hipster dude? Actually quite a strong connection to a big part of said vale.



    Is he the guy from Supergrass?
    Asctually a strong resemblance to a Britpop period actor. If they ever do a Young ******* film, Jonathan Rhys Meyer should be a shoo in for the part.




    I refer you to my answer upthread
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 28,700

    Carnyx said:

    eek said:

    Foxy said:

    eek said:

    Seems the Treasury and the new Chancellor aren't doing any research as they scramble for solutions

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/08/24/fracking-could-ease-soaring-energy-bills-gets-immediate-green/

    How many times do you need to be told the geology round here doesn't allow cheap fracking - so it's not going to solve anything.

    Could solve finding some big donors for the Tory party to replace some of their oligarchs.
    As prime fracking territory in the UK is around old coalfields, hence "Red Wall" seats, it is the fast track to lost elections.
    There is no prime fracking territory in the UK - if there was one of the current attempts might have actually achieved something.

    My current viewpoint of fracking is that we are still going "it works over there" so should work over here without asking - why does it work there and why have all attempts over here failed so miserably...
    Politics.

    My viewpoint of fracking is there's no commercial failure of politics, what there is though is NIMBYs and those who pander to them standing in the way.

    Drop the NIMBYism and I expect fracking would be happening, right now.
    POlitics doesn't change geology. That's the problem. Faulting, previous intrusions, cooking of shale by natural means, and so on. It;s not like the great sedimentary basins of North America.
    If geology is the issue then give it a green light, drop the NINBYism and it won't happen as it's not viable.

    Or geology is an excuse.
    Why give a green light to drilling rigs and pumping the fracking compounds in populated areas if they don;t make sense? Just because some idiot thinks it might work, and some other idiots have more money than sense.


  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 35,788
    Leon said:

    Anyway, as a distraction from our current vale of tears, who is this hipster dude? Actually quite a strong connection to a big part of said vale.



    Gladly, the cross-eyed bear?

    I wonder if it’s a young Tolstoy. Certainly looks like a dashing officer in a Tsarist army


    But young Tolstoy was too long ago for photography? I’m doing this without googling..
    You are a credit to old skool, pre Google education.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 36,673
    edited August 2022

    Leon said:

    One thing that depresses me about Gen Z is their passive incuriosity. They don’t really WANT to know stuff

    I wonder if this is a function of smartphones. All the world’s information is available in 3 seconds of tapping. Why bother learning it? Or reading about it?

    Yet this attitude makes you complacent and inert. The world is shit that happens. Whatever. Etc

    Schools have got to take some of the blame there.

    We've got a lot (and I mean A LOT) more efficient at getting pupils good grades since the 1980s. That's what happens when exam results become such a life-or-death thing for schools, heads and individual teachers.

    So there's a lot more teaching model answers to the test, which is the opposite of curiosity. Thing 1 is in lower secondary and is beginning to bump up against the "this is boring to write but necessary to get the marks" ceiling. She's smart enough to know that it's a game that is being played and needs to be played, but many don't.

    But also, kid's learning schedules are a lot more managed now than they used to be. I can understand why, but it doesn't leave as much time and energy for them to get curious about a quirky passion. Which is a shame.

    Oh, and maybe the reduction in public libraries was a mistake. Access to the internet over smartphones just isn't the same.
    Assessment drives learning.

    The question all educators most dislike is "is this going to be in the exam?" as it narrows all teaching to the curriculum.

    Saying "no, but it will be very useful to you as a doctor" gets a withering, pitying look.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 32,645

    Leon said:

    Part of this is just appalling education

    Eg my older daughter with whom I have just been in Italy. She has just done Geography GCSE

    We were sitting in the Piazza Navona in Rome looking at Bernini’s famous Fountain of the Four Rivers. I explained what it represents (turns out she likes all this art stuff) and I mentioned the Danube and she said “what’s the Danube?”

    And this child is smart

    Wtf are we teaching them? The first year of Geography should be “learn all the countries, their capitals, the main rivers, the mountain ranges, the deserts, the oceans and seas, the historic roads and trade routes”. The BASICS

    Thus equipping them with a mental map of the world that will last for a lifetime. Like basic arithmetic. How come we STILL aren’t doing this?

    Do the same for cooking, adding up, shopping, banking, travelling, voting. BASIC LIFE SKILLS

    I did geography GCE in the 1970s. We didn’t get taught the names of rivers, seas, cities etc. It was all ox bow rivers, population densities etc, if I remember correctly.

    What you’re largely talking about is general knowledge. I got that by reading books of facts, dipping in and out of encyclopaedias etc. In other words, books at home and in libraries. I did that on rainy days when I couldn’t go out with my mates on our bikes or to play football etc. There were no mobile phones or computers back then.

    That’s a long way of saying you can’t blame the education system. It’s a much wider issue - and one that parents absolutely need to be aware of and do something about if they believe it’s important for their kids to know this stuff (which it is).

    I do agree on mental arithmetic, though. That should be part if the curriculum. We can’t leave it all to calculators.
    AIUI Mental arithmetic is on the curriculum - or at least was (and is) strongly taught in my son's primary school. He's eight, and calculators are not allowed to be used at his age. It's all in your head for basic sums, or column-style methods on paper for more complex sums.

    What computers *are* good for is giving you lots of questions. He loves 'Times Tables Rockstars'. And I've created scripts that chuck out loads of extra questions for him in all sorts of areas of maths. Because I'm evil. ;)

    And Twinkl has been brilliant during Lockdown.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 32,235
    ydoethur said:

    Carnyx said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Carnyx said:

    Truss has so many big problems I wonder if her team know which to deny first?
    Not supported by most Tory MPs
    Cost of Living catastrophe where the solutions are politically or economically untenable
    A coterie of the wort members of Johnson's government plus a choice of 2019 mince to promote

    If they seriously try and market themselves as a "new" government I expect the response will get pretty brutal. No government would get through this winter without scars. None. But across Europe governments are showing voters they understand the crisis, they are prepared to do whatever it takes, and are putting lots of money into it.

    The only money Trussteam are putting up is new debt to give themselves a tax cut, and opening a credit line in the Fetlife store.

    *googles Fetlife* ... the things one learns on PB. "FetLife is the Social Network for the BDSM, Fetish & Kinky Community. Like Facebook, but run by kinksters like you and me. We think it is more fun that way."
    And there was me thinking it was a harmless website for lovers of feta cheese...
    Indeed. The expertise and knowledge of of PBers is impressive, from moths downward.
    Except on matters to do with religion, judging from last night's increasingly bizarre debate which bore little resemblance to expertise on either side.
    Ignorance of a subject, combined with confidence, is a common combination.
  • Taz said:

    Sandpit said:

    Truss has so many big problems I wonder if her team know which to deny first?
    Not supported by most Tory MPs
    Cost of Living catastrophe where the solutions are politically or economically untenable
    A coterie of the wort members of Johnson's government plus a choice of 2019 mince to promote

    If they seriously try and market themselves as a "new" government I expect the response will get pretty brutal. No government would get through this winter without scars. None. But across Europe governments are showing voters they understand the crisis, they are prepared to do whatever it takes, and are putting lots of money into it.

    The only money Trussteam are putting up is new debt to give themselves a tax cut, and opening a credit line in the Fetlife store.

    Wow, there’s already a Truss Derangement Syndrome, a week before she’s even been confirmed in the job.
    I think TDS - if it exists outside your fevered imagination - is what Tory MPs are feeling.

    The last time a PM was imposed over the wishes of the ruling party MPs was...?
    As it stands Truss has more declared MP support than Sunak does.

    In the final round of the MP voting Mordaunt was eliminated, but of course her votes were never redistributed. Mordaunt is very firmly on Team Truss not Team Sunak, as are more of her own supporters that have subsequently declared a side, so based on what MPs are saying they wish, if there were a final MP-only round of voting now, then Truss would win and Sunak would lose.
    MP's cynically rushing to the aid of the winner.

    Had Rishi Sunak been winning there would have been switchers the other way.
    That cuts both ways. How many of those who backed Sunak in the earlier rounds only did so because he was considered the long term favourite to be the eventual winner?

    We can't know for certain how many MPs are backing either candidate because they genuinely want them to win, or how many because they think they will win.

    The only thing we can know for certain is going into this final round of voting, Truss currently has the most declared MP support.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 30,379

    Leon said:

    Anyway, as a distraction from our current vale of tears, who is this hipster dude? Actually quite a strong connection to a big part of said vale.



    Gladly, the cross-eyed bear?

    I wonder if it’s a young Tolstoy. Certainly looks like a dashing officer in a Tsarist army


    But young Tolstoy was too long ago for photography? I’m doing this without googling..
    You are a credit to old skool, pre Google education.
    Thankyou. Good quiz - there are enough clues in the photo that you can make a decent guess if you have some historical knowledge - the uniform, the facial hair, even the stance - the aristocratic self-assurance.

    However I also knew/know that young Tolstoy was famously handsome (an “indefatigable shagger” as he described his younger self) and had notable cheekbones into old age

    All that and he wrote War and Peace. Dude
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 25,188
    Some of the issue comes from UK history.
    We had all the agricultural land and oceans we needed to feed a growing population.
    All the coal to power an Industrial Revolution. All the oil and gas to get us through the oil shock.
    So.
    We must have plentiful shale gas, mustn't we?
    Even the most optimistic projections suggest we simply don't have enough to even replace the loss of North Sea fields. Not even close.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 31,817

    Carnyx said:

    eek said:

    Foxy said:

    eek said:

    Seems the Treasury and the new Chancellor aren't doing any research as they scramble for solutions

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/08/24/fracking-could-ease-soaring-energy-bills-gets-immediate-green/

    How many times do you need to be told the geology round here doesn't allow cheap fracking - so it's not going to solve anything.

    Could solve finding some big donors for the Tory party to replace some of their oligarchs.
    As prime fracking territory in the UK is around old coalfields, hence "Red Wall" seats, it is the fast track to lost elections.
    There is no prime fracking territory in the UK - if there was one of the current attempts might have actually achieved something.

    My current viewpoint of fracking is that we are still going "it works over there" so should work over here without asking - why does it work there and why have all attempts over here failed so miserably...
    Politics.

    My viewpoint of fracking is there's no commercial failure of politics, what there is though is NIMBYs and those who pander to them standing in the way.

    Drop the NIMBYism and I expect fracking would be happening, right now.
    POlitics doesn't change geology. That's the problem. Faulting, previous intrusions, cooking of shale by natural means, and so on. It;s not like the great sedimentary basins of North America.
    If geology is the issue then give it a green light, drop the NINBYism and it won't happen as it's not viable.

    Or geology is an excuse.
    The government, in conjunction with some Evul Experts (tm) set some rules about how much pollution of ground water, micro quakes etc you can do while fracking.

    That is one of the major purposes of government - to mediate the clashes between the rights of various individuals and groups. In this case the right to frack on your own land vs the rights of your neighbours not to be disturbed.

    The frackers couldn’t meet those targets, and produce economically.

    There is also the well documented phenomenon of non-viable businesses that get tried anyway. An example is the small space launch industry - billions are being invested in companies whose plan is either

    - build a rocket that costs more than existing rockets
    - build a launch system that doesn’t meet any requirement in the market
    - build a launch system that will kill the developing engineers
    - build a launch system that violates the important laws of physics
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 29,272

    Foxy said:

    eek said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    Part of this is just appalling education

    Eg my older daughter with whom I have just been in Italy. She has just done Geography GCSE

    We were sitting in the Piazza Navona in Rome looking at Bernini’s famous Fountain of the Four Rivers. I explained what it represents (turns out she likes all this art stuff) and I mentioned the Danube and she said “what’s the Danube?”

    And this child is smart

    Wtf are we teaching them? The first year of Geography should be “learn all the countries, their capitals, the main rivers, the mountain ranges, the deserts, the oceans and seas, the historic roads and trade routes”. The BASICS

    Thus equipping them with a mental map of the world that will last for a lifetime. Like basic arithmetic. How come we STILL aren’t doing this?

    Do the same for cooking, adding up, shopping, banking, travelling, voting. BASIC LIFE SKILLS


    This is a recurring (and timeless) complaint of the old about the young, that everything is in decline, they don't know anything, that the education system is failing, etc etc.
    We need to learn things by rote because if we didn't know it looking it up was a grade A pain.

    That simply isn't true anymore when (provided you can identify appropriate search criteria) all information is available anywhere you can get a mobile phone signal...
    I do run across this with my students, and certainly Dr Google can provide a diagnosis. The problem is that a doctor needs enough understanding of anatomy, physiology and pathology to know what questions to ask of Dr Google.
    The complaint about not spotting order of magnitude errors and just believing the calculator is an old one.

    From talking with my daughters, the tricks for getting approximate answers aren’t emphasised in the modern school curriculum.

    My wife corrected a nurse for a medicine dose for my daughter once, for example. Order of magnitude too small…
    Use of the metric system problem!
    Proud grandad writes; Granddaughters Two and Three both got highest grades in Fine Art! I don't know where they get that from!
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 46,853
    edited August 2022

    Carnyx said:

    Anyway, as a distraction from our current vale of tears, who is this hipster dude? Actually quite a strong connection to a big part of said vale.



    Nolan?
    V. close but wrong flag.
    It's either Adam Ant or the young @Leon ?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 72,844
    Pulpstar said:

    eek said:

    Foxy said:

    eek said:

    Seems the Treasury and the new Chancellor aren't doing any research as they scramble for solutions

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/08/24/fracking-could-ease-soaring-energy-bills-gets-immediate-green/

    How many times do you need to be told the geology round here doesn't allow cheap fracking - so it's not going to solve anything.

    Could solve finding some big donors for the Tory party to replace some of their oligarchs.
    As prime fracking territory in the UK is around old coalfields, hence "Red Wall" seats, it is the fast track to lost elections.
    There is no prime fracking territory in the UK - if there was one of the current attempts might have actually achieved something.

    My current viewpoint of fracking is that we are still going "it works over there" so should work over here without asking - why does it work there and why have all attempts over here failed so miserably...
    Politics.

    My viewpoint of fracking is there's no commercial failure of politics, what there is though is NIMBYs and those who pander to them standing in the way.

    Drop the NIMBYism and I expect fracking would be happening, right now.
    I think this is wrong, @rcs1000 concluded the geology of the UK just wasn't up to the job and he's no NIMBY/greeny.
    See here:

    https://frack-off.org.uk/sites/tinker-lane/ note all planning and enviromental permits granted.

    Update July 2019 – The site is being abandoned, the well failed to encounter the Bowland shale.

    Obviously pleasing for locals/antifrackers and disappointing for iGas but the geology is what it is.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 8,278
    Sean_F said:

    ydoethur said:

    Carnyx said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Carnyx said:

    Truss has so many big problems I wonder if her team know which to deny first?
    Not supported by most Tory MPs
    Cost of Living catastrophe where the solutions are politically or economically untenable
    A coterie of the wort members of Johnson's government plus a choice of 2019 mince to promote

    If they seriously try and market themselves as a "new" government I expect the response will get pretty brutal. No government would get through this winter without scars. None. But across Europe governments are showing voters they understand the crisis, they are prepared to do whatever it takes, and are putting lots of money into it.

    The only money Trussteam are putting up is new debt to give themselves a tax cut, and opening a credit line in the Fetlife store.

    *googles Fetlife* ... the things one learns on PB. "FetLife is the Social Network for the BDSM, Fetish & Kinky Community. Like Facebook, but run by kinksters like you and me. We think it is more fun that way."
    And there was me thinking it was a harmless website for lovers of feta cheese...
    Indeed. The expertise and knowledge of of PBers is impressive, from moths downward.
    Except on matters to do with religion, judging from last night's increasingly bizarre debate which bore little resemblance to expertise on either side.
    Ignorance of a subject, combined with confidence, is a common combination.
    That has to be one of the best posts for sometime here and should be referenced during many future arguments. Many of us may take notice, one won't.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 31,817
    Sean_F said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Part of this is just appalling education

    Eg my older daughter with whom I have just been in Italy. She has just done Geography GCSE

    We were sitting in the Piazza Navona in Rome looking at Bernini’s famous Fountain of the Four Rivers. I explained what it represents (turns out she likes all this art stuff) and I mentioned the Danube and she said “what’s the Danube?”

    And this child is smart

    Wtf are we teaching them? The first year of Geography should be “learn all the countries, their capitals, the main rivers, the mountain ranges, the deserts, the oceans and seas, the historic roads and trade routes”. The BASICS

    Thus equipping them with a mental map of the world that will last for a lifetime. Like basic arithmetic. How come we STILL aren’t doing this?

    Do the same for cooking, adding up, shopping, banking, travelling, voting. BASIC LIFE SKILLS

    I did geography GCE in the 1970s. We didn’t get taught the names of rivers, seas, cities etc. It was all ox bow rivers, population densities etc, if I remember correctly.

    What you’re largely talking about is general knowledge. I got that by reading books of facts, dipping in and out of encyclopaedias etc. In other words, books at home and in libraries. I did that on rainy days when I couldn’t go out with my mates on our bikes or to play football etc. There were no mobile phones or computers back then.

    That’s a long way of saying you can’t blame the education system. It’s a much wider issue - and one that parents absolutely need to be aware of and do something about if they believe it’s important for their kids to know this stuff (which it is).

    I do agree on mental arithmetic, though. That should be part if the curriculum. We can’t leave it all to calculators.

    Yes. You’re the same as me. I had atlases and devoured encyclopaedias. I hungered to know more

    But what about kids where the family does not have a book in the house? And general knowledge is not dispersed? This IS a failing of the education system and it is so easily fixed

    Give every child a course in THE BASICS. From the mental map of the world to how to vote in elections (and why) and how a smartphone works to how to do online banking to how to cook a decent roast/curry/breakfast to why we are a democracy. Make it varied and interesting and fun. Basic Life Skills

    Two hours a week every week from 11-16
    It's odd that an author such as yourself thinks that the answer to kids having no books in the house is 'schools'.

    You should team up with Dolly Parton so that every kid in Britain gets a free Tom Knox thriller. That'll certainly teach them some geography. And other things ... ;)

    .
    Swedish boiling and efforts to breed apes with women come to mind.
    Over the years, in addition to my own children, I’ve read through the Oxford Reading Tree with children of friends and family.

    This has resulted in a fair collection of book worms. Several were quite uninterested in reading before - behind their peers in reading etc.

    I would interested to see the results of a study of dropping a box set of the ORT in every home with children in an area, and getting the parents to follow through….
  • eekeek Posts: 22,039
    dixiedean said:

    Some of the issue comes from UK history.
    We had all the agricultural land and oceans we needed to feed a growing population.
    All the coal to power an Industrial Revolution. All the oil and gas to get us through the oil shock.
    So.
    We must have plentiful shale gas, mustn't we?
    Even the most optimistic projections suggest we simply don't have enough to even replace the loss of North Sea fields. Not even close.

    The difference is that we've looked at those projections - and have 2 people on here @Richard_Tyndall and @rcs1000 who both know the reality and who we trust the opinion of.

    That simply doesn't appear to be the case elsewhere nor in the Treasury - where there still seems to be people who believe because fracking working in Texas it's got to work here..
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 10,902
    Sean_F said:

    ydoethur said:

    Carnyx said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Carnyx said:

    Truss has so many big problems I wonder if her team know which to deny first?
    Not supported by most Tory MPs
    Cost of Living catastrophe where the solutions are politically or economically untenable
    A coterie of the wort members of Johnson's government plus a choice of 2019 mince to promote

    If they seriously try and market themselves as a "new" government I expect the response will get pretty brutal. No government would get through this winter without scars. None. But across Europe governments are showing voters they understand the crisis, they are prepared to do whatever it takes, and are putting lots of money into it.

    The only money Trussteam are putting up is new debt to give themselves a tax cut, and opening a credit line in the Fetlife store.

    *googles Fetlife* ... the things one learns on PB. "FetLife is the Social Network for the BDSM, Fetish & Kinky Community. Like Facebook, but run by kinksters like you and me. We think it is more fun that way."
    And there was me thinking it was a harmless website for lovers of feta cheese...
    Indeed. The expertise and knowledge of of PBers is impressive, from moths downward.
    Except on matters to do with religion, judging from last night's increasingly bizarre debate which bore little resemblance to expertise on either side.
    Ignorance of a subject, combined with confidence, is a common combination.
    Dunning-Kruger innit.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning–Kruger_effect
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 32,645
    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    One thing that depresses me about Gen Z is their passive incuriosity. They don’t really WANT to know stuff

    I wonder if this is a function of smartphones. All the world’s information is available in 3 seconds of tapping. Why bother learning it? Or reading about it?

    Yet this attitude makes you complacent and inert. The world is shit that happens. Whatever. Etc

    Schools have got to take some of the blame there.

    We've got a lot (and I mean A LOT) more efficient at getting pupils good grades since the 1980s. That's what happens when exam results become such a life-or-death thing for schools, heads and individual teachers.

    So there's a lot more teaching model answers to the test, which is the opposite of curiosity. Thing 1 is in lower secondary and is beginning to bump up against the "this is boring to write but necessary to get the marks" ceiling. She's smart enough to know that it's a game that is being played and needs to be played, but many don't.

    But also, kid's learning schedules are a lot more managed now than they used to be. I can understand why, but it doesn't leave as much time and energy for them to get curious about a quirky passion. Which is a shame.

    Oh, and maybe the reduction in public libraries was a mistake. Access to the internet over smartphones just isn't the same.
    Assessment drives learning.

    The question all educators most dislike is "is this going to be in the exam?" as it narrows all teaching to the curriculum.

    Saying "no, but it will be very useful to you as a doctor" gets a withering, pitying look.
    This is where a student who is genuinely interested in a subject will always be at an advantage, because they will look and learn beyond the curriculum.

    When I was recruiting for graduate software engineers, the narrow knowledge of many people who had been through degree courses was notable. And then you got those who were enthusiasts and had a much broader knowledge because they'd been doing it as a hobby for years.

    Incidentally, Mrs J recently interviewed a young man to be one of her minions. He knew more about 'his' topic than any of the interviewers as his PhD had been in it, so they ended up just chatting about the industry. Whilst he was technically excellent, he was rather naive about the Wonderful World of Work...
  • eek said:

    dixiedean said:

    Some of the issue comes from UK history.
    We had all the agricultural land and oceans we needed to feed a growing population.
    All the coal to power an Industrial Revolution. All the oil and gas to get us through the oil shock.
    So.
    We must have plentiful shale gas, mustn't we?
    Even the most optimistic projections suggest we simply don't have enough to even replace the loss of North Sea fields. Not even close.

    The difference is that we've looked at those projections - and have 2 people on here @Richard_Tyndall and @rcs1000 who both know the reality and who we trust the opinion of.

    That simply doesn't appear to be the case elsewhere nor in the Treasury - where there still seems to be people who believe because fracking working in Texas it's got to work here..
    I thought Richard and Robert disagreed on this issue? My apologies if I'm mistaken.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 20,029

    Leon said:

    Part of this is just appalling education

    Eg my older daughter with whom I have just been in Italy. She has just done Geography GCSE

    We were sitting in the Piazza Navona in Rome looking at Bernini’s famous Fountain of the Four Rivers. I explained what it represents (turns out she likes all this art stuff) and I mentioned the Danube and she said “what’s the Danube?”

    And this child is smart

    Wtf are we teaching them? The first year of Geography should be “learn all the countries, their capitals, the main rivers, the mountain ranges, the deserts, the oceans and seas, the historic roads and trade routes”. The BASICS

    Thus equipping them with a mental map of the world that will last for a lifetime. Like basic arithmetic. How come we STILL aren’t doing this?

    Do the same for cooking, adding up, shopping, banking, travelling, voting. BASIC LIFE SKILLS

    We are all dumb in some areas. Even you. ;)

    In the case of geography: my son is eight, and in first year he learnt all the continents. More recently, he has done the rain cycle. I'd say that's of more immediate use than learning ponderous lists without context. Knowing about how the main types of rock are formed (sedimentary, metamorphic and igneous) is of much ore use and interest to him at the moment than knowing the capital of Brazil is Brasília.

    My favourite anecdote on this was from NASA. In about 2012, a guy was tasked with writing the official history of the Shuttle program. He got a team together and they wrote it. At a later stage, he got some interns to read through it and comment, the idea being to catch concepts and terms that had not been adequately explained in the text.

    These interns were bright and knowledgeable. Yet one asked: "What is the Cold War' ?
    Yes, we all have different ideas on what's obvious, essential knowledge. Unless there's interesting context, the knowledge doesn't stick anyway. I had little recollection about geography until I started playing board wargames, when the location of Austerlitz and the route of the Danube became keenly important. I still couldn't name or locate many deserts (Sahara, Gobi, and, er...) but I've not really felt the lack.

    Personally I think that simulations of adult life would be more useful and engaging for the Real Life classes. Parenthood, illness, debt, etc. - in critical situations, what are your options? Lots of people flounder. Location of Katmandu? Not so much.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 72,844
    dixiedean said:

    Some of the issue comes from UK history.
    We had all the agricultural land and oceans we needed to feed a growing population.
    All the coal to power an Industrial Revolution. All the oil and gas to get us through the oil shock.
    So.
    We must have plentiful shale gas, mustn't we?
    Even the most optimistic projections suggest we simply don't have enough to even replace the loss of North Sea fields. Not even close.

    I think those fields have an important role to play whilst we put up nuclear power plants and wind and solar and batterys. The timescale for all that happening suddenly got a hell of alot more urgent though.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 35,788
    edited August 2022
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Anyway, as a distraction from our current vale of tears, who is this hipster dude? Actually quite a strong connection to a big part of said vale.



    Gladly, the cross-eyed bear?

    I wonder if it’s a young Tolstoy. Certainly looks like a dashing officer in a Tsarist army


    But young Tolstoy was too long ago for photography? I’m doing this without googling..
    You are a credit to old skool, pre Google education.
    Thankyou. Good quiz - there are enough clues in the photo that you can make a decent guess if you have some historical knowledge - the uniform, the facial hair, even the stance - the aristocratic self-assurance.

    However I also knew/know that young Tolstoy was famously handsome (an “indefatigable shagger” as he described his younger self) and had notable cheekbones into old age

    All that and he wrote War and Peace. Dude
    I’m almost tempted to do a ‘there is/was a Russia other than the current quasi-Fascist, raping, torturing, self deceiving iteration’ post, but I’m too fucking weary. Of course all the nasty stuff was always there, but there seem to be very few cultural highs to counter the present lows.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 32,235

    Sean_F said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Part of this is just appalling education

    Eg my older daughter with whom I have just been in Italy. She has just done Geography GCSE

    We were sitting in the Piazza Navona in Rome looking at Bernini’s famous Fountain of the Four Rivers. I explained what it represents (turns out she likes all this art stuff) and I mentioned the Danube and she said “what’s the Danube?”

    And this child is smart

    Wtf are we teaching them? The first year of Geography should be “learn all the countries, their capitals, the main rivers, the mountain ranges, the deserts, the oceans and seas, the historic roads and trade routes”. The BASICS

    Thus equipping them with a mental map of the world that will last for a lifetime. Like basic arithmetic. How come we STILL aren’t doing this?

    Do the same for cooking, adding up, shopping, banking, travelling, voting. BASIC LIFE SKILLS

    I did geography GCE in the 1970s. We didn’t get taught the names of rivers, seas, cities etc. It was all ox bow rivers, population densities etc, if I remember correctly.

    What you’re largely talking about is general knowledge. I got that by reading books of facts, dipping in and out of encyclopaedias etc. In other words, books at home and in libraries. I did that on rainy days when I couldn’t go out with my mates on our bikes or to play football etc. There were no mobile phones or computers back then.

    That’s a long way of saying you can’t blame the education system. It’s a much wider issue - and one that parents absolutely need to be aware of and do something about if they believe it’s important for their kids to know this stuff (which it is).

    I do agree on mental arithmetic, though. That should be part if the curriculum. We can’t leave it all to calculators.

    Yes. You’re the same as me. I had atlases and devoured encyclopaedias. I hungered to know more

    But what about kids where the family does not have a book in the house? And general knowledge is not dispersed? This IS a failing of the education system and it is so easily fixed

    Give every child a course in THE BASICS. From the mental map of the world to how to vote in elections (and why) and how a smartphone works to how to do online banking to how to cook a decent roast/curry/breakfast to why we are a democracy. Make it varied and interesting and fun. Basic Life Skills

    Two hours a week every week from 11-16
    It's odd that an author such as yourself thinks that the answer to kids having no books in the house is 'schools'.

    You should team up with Dolly Parton so that every kid in Britain gets a free Tom Knox thriller. That'll certainly teach them some geography. And other things ... ;)

    .
    Swedish boiling and efforts to breed apes with women come to mind.
    Over the years, in addition to my own children, I’ve read through the Oxford Reading Tree with children of friends and family.

    This has resulted in a fair collection of book worms. Several were quite uninterested in reading before - behind their peers in reading etc.

    I would interested to see the results of a study of dropping a box set of the ORT in every home with children in an area, and getting the parents to follow through….
    Honestly, I find I can't read enough. If I enjoyed a subject at school, I'd always read additional stuff that was not on the curriculum. Lots of people find reading to be a chore, which is unfortunate.

    The Swedish Boiling Scene from The Genesis Secret is actually pretty tame, compared to Henryk Stenkiewicz's Fire on the Steppe. That involves a guy being blinded and impaled, told from his point of view over several pages.
  • eekeek Posts: 22,039
    edited August 2022
    Pulpstar said:

    dixiedean said:

    Some of the issue comes from UK history.
    We had all the agricultural land and oceans we needed to feed a growing population.
    All the coal to power an Industrial Revolution. All the oil and gas to get us through the oil shock.
    So.
    We must have plentiful shale gas, mustn't we?
    Even the most optimistic projections suggest we simply don't have enough to even replace the loss of North Sea fields. Not even close.

    I think those fields have an important role to play whilst we put up nuclear power plants and wind and solar and batterys. The timescale for all that happening suddenly got a hell of alot more urgent though.
    If you've read the posts today - you will see that we have far less Shale gas than was believed and it's proven far harder (and more expensive) to reach than expected.

    This link shows the first point to save you hunting for that post https://www.lse.ac.uk/granthaminstitute/explainers/what-potential-reserves-of-shale-gas-are-there-in-the-uk/#:~:text=Four areas in the UK,Wessex area in Southern England
  • LeonLeon Posts: 30,379

    Leon said:

    Part of this is just appalling education

    Eg my older daughter with whom I have just been in Italy. She has just done Geography GCSE

    We were sitting in the Piazza Navona in Rome looking at Bernini’s famous Fountain of the Four Rivers. I explained what it represents (turns out she likes all this art stuff) and I mentioned the Danube and she said “what’s the Danube?”

    And this child is smart

    Wtf are we teaching them? The first year of Geography should be “learn all the countries, their capitals, the main rivers, the mountain ranges, the deserts, the oceans and seas, the historic roads and trade routes”. The BASICS

    Thus equipping them with a mental map of the world that will last for a lifetime. Like basic arithmetic. How come we STILL aren’t doing this?

    Do the same for cooking, adding up, shopping, banking, travelling, voting. BASIC LIFE SKILLS

    We are all dumb in some areas. Even you. ;)

    In the case of geography: my son is eight, and in first year he learnt all the continents. More recently, he has done the rain cycle. I'd say that's of more immediate use than learning ponderous lists without context. Knowing about how the main types of rock are formed (sedimentary, metamorphic and igneous) is of much ore use and interest to him at the moment than knowing the capital of Brazil is Brasília.

    My favourite anecdote on this was from NASA. In about 2012, a guy was tasked with writing the official history of the Shuttle program. He got a team together and they wrote it. At a later stage, he got some interns to read through it and comment, the idea being to catch concepts and terms that had not been adequately explained in the text.

    These interns were bright and knowledgeable. Yet one asked: "What is the Cold War' ?
    Yes, we all have different ideas on what's obvious, essential knowledge. Unless there's interesting context, the knowledge doesn't stick anyway. I had little recollection about geography until I started playing board wargames, when the location of Austerlitz and the route of the Danube became keenly important. I still couldn't name or locate many deserts (Sahara, Gobi, and, er...) but I've not really felt the lack.

    Personally I think that simulations of adult life would be more useful and engaging for the Real Life classes. Parenthood, illness, debt, etc. - in critical situations, what are your options? Lots of people flounder. Location of Katmandu? Not so much.
    Good idea. Include them too. What to do if your mum collapses. Seriously

    But you need the geography as well. A mental map of your city/country/world is such an important thing and so beneficial. Ok many kids will shrug and forget, but many won’t and they will benefit

    Make it all fun and varied. This should be a relatively light hearted course. 2 hours a week. No exam at the end. But so much good stuff imparted
    Enrich their minds and equip them for daily life
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 20,299

    Anyway, as a distraction from our current vale of tears, who is this hipster dude? Actually quite a strong connection to a big part of said vale.



    Is he the guy from Supergrass?
    Asctually a strong resemblance to a Britpop period actor. If they ever do a Young ******* film, Jonathan Rhys Meyer should be a shoo in for the part.



    As long as no acting is required.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 16,522
    edited August 2022
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Part of this is just appalling education

    Eg my older daughter with whom I have just been in Italy. She has just done Geography GCSE

    We were sitting in the Piazza Navona in Rome looking at Bernini’s famous Fountain of the Four Rivers. I explained what it represents (turns out she likes all this art stuff) and I mentioned the Danube and she said “what’s the Danube?”

    And this child is smart

    Wtf are we teaching them? The first year of Geography should be “learn all the countries, their capitals, the main rivers, the mountain ranges, the deserts, the oceans and seas, the historic roads and trade routes”. The BASICS

    Thus equipping them with a mental map of the world that will last for a lifetime. Like basic arithmetic. How come we STILL aren’t doing this?

    Do the same for cooking, adding up, shopping, banking, travelling, voting. BASIC LIFE SKILLS

    I did geography GCE in the 1970s. We didn’t get taught the names of rivers, seas, cities etc. It was all ox bow rivers, population densities etc, if I remember correctly.

    What you’re largely talking about is general knowledge. I got that by reading books of facts, dipping in and out of encyclopaedias etc. In other words, books at home and in libraries. I did that on rainy days when I couldn’t go out with my mates on our bikes or to play football etc. There were no mobile phones or computers back then.

    That’s a long way of saying you can’t blame the education system. It’s a much wider issue - and one that parents absolutely need to be aware of and do something about if they believe it’s important for their kids to know this stuff (which it is).

    I do agree on mental arithmetic, though. That should be part if the curriculum. We can’t leave it all to calculators.

    Yes. You’re the same as me. I had atlases and devoured encyclopaedias. I hungered to know more

    But what about kids where the family does not have a book in the house? And general knowledge is not dispersed? This IS a failing of the education system and it is so easily fixed

    Give every child a course in THE BASICS. From the mental map of the world to how to vote in elections (and why) and how a smartphone works to how to do online banking to how to cook a decent roast/curry/breakfast to why we are a democracy. Make it varied and interesting and fun. Basic Life Skills

    Two hours a week every week from 11-16
    How do you decide what's BASIC though? Logically if you wanted the basics for understanding geography, then I guess before you learn anything about countries you need to know about river formation and the ice age and stuff, because everything about where the rivers end up being depends on that. Alternatively if you're trying to teach a bunch of layers of that stack simultaneously you might prefer to start with stuff that's close to the person they're teaching, and leave places they're not likely to come into contact with for later.

    I think what people tend to do here is to assume that the order in which they learned stuff when they were kids is the most "basic" order. But in fact they got taught it that way because if you can turn knowledge into lists of things then you can measure it with multiple-choice tests which is cheaper.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 25,188
    Pulpstar said:

    dixiedean said:

    Some of the issue comes from UK history.
    We had all the agricultural land and oceans we needed to feed a growing population.
    All the coal to power an Industrial Revolution. All the oil and gas to get us through the oil shock.
    So.
    We must have plentiful shale gas, mustn't we?
    Even the most optimistic projections suggest we simply don't have enough to even replace the loss of North Sea fields. Not even close.

    I think those fields have an important role to play whilst we put up nuclear power plants and wind and solar and batterys. The timescale for all that happening suddenly got a hell of alot more urgent though.
    Sure. That's an arguable case. But it isn't a magic bullet solution.
    When it comes to comparative energy advantage we are blessed with winds and tides. And oil and gas for now. Sun and shale gas not so. Can't alter the geography.
  • Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Part of this is just appalling education

    Eg my older daughter with whom I have just been in Italy. She has just done Geography GCSE

    We were sitting in the Piazza Navona in Rome looking at Bernini’s famous Fountain of the Four Rivers. I explained what it represents (turns out she likes all this art stuff) and I mentioned the Danube and she said “what’s the Danube?”

    And this child is smart

    Wtf are we teaching them? The first year of Geography should be “learn all the countries, their capitals, the main rivers, the mountain ranges, the deserts, the oceans and seas, the historic roads and trade routes”. The BASICS

    Thus equipping them with a mental map of the world that will last for a lifetime. Like basic arithmetic. How come we STILL aren’t doing this?

    Do the same for cooking, adding up, shopping, banking, travelling, voting. BASIC LIFE SKILLS

    I did geography GCE in the 1970s. We didn’t get taught the names of rivers, seas, cities etc. It was all ox bow rivers, population densities etc, if I remember correctly.

    What you’re largely talking about is general knowledge. I got that by reading books of facts, dipping in and out of encyclopaedias etc. In other words, books at home and in libraries. I did that on rainy days when I couldn’t go out with my mates on our bikes or to play football etc. There were no mobile phones or computers back then.

    That’s a long way of saying you can’t blame the education system. It’s a much wider issue - and one that parents absolutely need to be aware of and do something about if they believe it’s important for their kids to know this stuff (which it is).

    I do agree on mental arithmetic, though. That should be part if the curriculum. We can’t leave it all to calculators.

    Yes. You’re the same as me. I had atlases and devoured encyclopaedias. I hungered to know more

    But what about kids where the family does not have a book in the house? And general knowledge is not dispersed? This IS a failing of the education system and it is so easily fixed

    Give every child a course in THE BASICS. From the mental map of the world to how to vote in elections (and why) and how a smartphone works to how to do online banking to how to cook a decent roast/curry/breakfast to why we are a democracy. Make it varied and interesting and fun. Basic Life Skills

    Two hours a week every week from 11-16
    You could blame schools and even universities which now teach strictly to the test, with no interesting diversions allowed (which is one reason exam results are so much better than they used to be).

    You could blame television which is now all soaps and talent shows rather than documentaries (it says something that the best docs are now often on Channel Five!).

    But there is a theory that kids' apparent ignorance is all Google's fault. It posits that in the old days, if you wanted to know something or check a fact, you would read a book, or at least a chapter, and this would mean subconsciously absorbing background material around whatever it was you were looking up, whereas now Google is so efficient that it will take you straight to the answer so the kids read only one sentence, and half the time will not even follow the link because the information they want is in the two line summary Google displays on its results page.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 20,299

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Anyway, as a distraction from our current vale of tears, who is this hipster dude? Actually quite a strong connection to a big part of said vale.



    Gladly, the cross-eyed bear?

    I wonder if it’s a young Tolstoy. Certainly looks like a dashing officer in a Tsarist army


    But young Tolstoy was too long ago for photography? I’m doing this without googling..
    You are a credit to old skool, pre Google education.
    Thankyou. Good quiz - there are enough clues in the photo that you can make a decent guess if you have some historical knowledge - the uniform, the facial hair, even the stance - the aristocratic self-assurance.

    However I also knew/know that young Tolstoy was famously handsome (an “indefatigable shagger” as he described his younger self) and had notable cheekbones into old age

    All that and he wrote War and Peace. Dude
    I’m almost tempted to do a ‘there is/was a Russia other than the current quasi-Fascist, raping, torturing, self deceiving iteration’ post, but I’m too fucking weary. Of course all the nasty stuff was always there, but there seem to be very few cultural highs to counter the present lows.
    I don't think it has changed. At all.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 72,844
    edited August 2022
    eek said:

    Pulpstar said:

    dixiedean said:

    Some of the issue comes from UK history.
    We had all the agricultural land and oceans we needed to feed a growing population.
    All the coal to power an Industrial Revolution. All the oil and gas to get us through the oil shock.
    So.
    We must have plentiful shale gas, mustn't we?
    Even the most optimistic projections suggest we simply don't have enough to even replace the loss of North Sea fields. Not even close.

    I think those fields have an important role to play whilst we put up nuclear power plants and wind and solar and batterys. The timescale for all that happening suddenly got a hell of alot more urgent though.
    If you've read the posts today - you will see that we have far less Shale gas than was believed and it's proven far harder (and more expensive) to reach than expected.

    This link shows the first point to save you hunting for that post https://www.lse.ac.uk/granthaminstitute/explainers/what-potential-reserves-of-shale-gas-are-there-in-the-uk/#:~:text=Four areas in the UK,Wessex area in Southern England
    I meant the remaining gas fields in the north sea, not fracking fields. Fracking might be viable somewhere in the UK, but it's like hunting for El Dorado at the moment.
    England's best bet might be nuclear. Scottish independence could stuff us on renewables.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 31,817

    Leon said:

    Part of this is just appalling education

    Eg my older daughter with whom I have just been in Italy. She has just done Geography GCSE

    We were sitting in the Piazza Navona in Rome looking at Bernini’s famous Fountain of the Four Rivers. I explained what it represents (turns out she likes all this art stuff) and I mentioned the Danube and she said “what’s the Danube?”

    And this child is smart

    Wtf are we teaching them? The first year of Geography should be “learn all the countries, their capitals, the main rivers, the mountain ranges, the deserts, the oceans and seas, the historic roads and trade routes”. The BASICS

    Thus equipping them with a mental map of the world that will last for a lifetime. Like basic arithmetic. How come we STILL aren’t doing this?

    Do the same for cooking, adding up, shopping, banking, travelling, voting. BASIC LIFE SKILLS

    We are all dumb in some areas. Even you. ;)

    In the case of geography: my son is eight, and in first year he learnt all the continents. More recently, he has done the rain cycle. I'd say that's of more immediate use than learning ponderous lists without context. Knowing about how the main types of rock are formed (sedimentary, metamorphic and igneous) is of much ore use and interest to him at the moment than knowing the capital of Brazil is Brasília.

    My favourite anecdote on this was from NASA. In about 2012, a guy was tasked with writing the official history of the Shuttle program. He got a team together and they wrote it. At a later stage, he got some interns to read through it and comment, the idea being to catch concepts and terms that had not been adequately explained in the text.

    These interns were bright and knowledgeable. Yet one asked: "What is the Cold War' ?
    Yes, we all have different ideas on what's obvious, essential knowledge. Unless there's interesting context, the knowledge doesn't stick anyway. I had little recollection about geography until I started playing board wargames, when the location of Austerlitz and the route of the Danube became keenly important. I still couldn't name or locate many deserts (Sahara, Gobi, and, er...) but I've not really felt the lack.

    Personally I think that simulations of adult life would be more useful and engaging for the Real Life classes. Parenthood, illness, debt, etc. - in critical situations, what are your options? Lots of people flounder. Location of Katmandu? Not so much.
    My daughters loved playing The Sims for a while
  • Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Part of this is just appalling education

    Eg my older daughter with whom I have just been in Italy. She has just done Geography GCSE

    We were sitting in the Piazza Navona in Rome looking at Bernini’s famous Fountain of the Four Rivers. I explained what it represents (turns out she likes all this art stuff) and I mentioned the Danube and she said “what’s the Danube?”

    And this child is smart

    Wtf are we teaching them? The first year of Geography should be “learn all the countries, their capitals, the main rivers, the mountain ranges, the deserts, the oceans and seas, the historic roads and trade routes”. The BASICS

    Thus equipping them with a mental map of the world that will last for a lifetime. Like basic arithmetic. How come we STILL aren’t doing this?

    Do the same for cooking, adding up, shopping, banking, travelling, voting. BASIC LIFE SKILLS

    We are all dumb in some areas. Even you. ;)

    In the case of geography: my son is eight, and in first year he learnt all the continents. More recently, he has done the rain cycle. I'd say that's of more immediate use than learning ponderous lists without context. Knowing about how the main types of rock are formed (sedimentary, metamorphic and igneous) is of much ore use and interest to him at the moment than knowing the capital of Brazil is Brasília.

    My favourite anecdote on this was from NASA. In about 2012, a guy was tasked with writing the official history of the Shuttle program. He got a team together and they wrote it. At a later stage, he got some interns to read through it and comment, the idea being to catch concepts and terms that had not been adequately explained in the text.

    These interns were bright and knowledgeable. Yet one asked: "What is the Cold War' ?
    Yes, we all have different ideas on what's obvious, essential knowledge. Unless there's interesting context, the knowledge doesn't stick anyway. I had little recollection about geography until I started playing board wargames, when the location of Austerlitz and the route of the Danube became keenly important. I still couldn't name or locate many deserts (Sahara, Gobi, and, er...) but I've not really felt the lack.

    Personally I think that simulations of adult life would be more useful and engaging for the Real Life classes. Parenthood, illness, debt, etc. - in critical situations, what are your options? Lots of people flounder. Location of Katmandu? Not so much.
    Good idea. Include them too. What to do if your mum collapses. Seriously

    But you need the geography as well. A mental map of your city/country/world is such an important thing and so beneficial. Ok many kids will shrug and forget, but many won’t and they will benefit

    Make it all fun and varied. This should be a relatively light hearted course. 2 hours a week. No exam at the end. But so much good stuff imparted
    Enrich their minds and equip them for daily life
    Of course it should happen. And non-examined education is a jolly good thing. But schools will calculate that two hours of General Studies lessons could alternatively be used to have another hour of English and another hour of Maths, and schools are very largely judged on results in those two subjects.

    It requires a very principled and secure headteacher to resist the temptation. And a lot of them have been pushed out for having old-fashioned views and not being team players.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 36,673

    Sean_F said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Part of this is just appalling education

    Eg my older daughter with whom I have just been in Italy. She has just done Geography GCSE

    We were sitting in the Piazza Navona in Rome looking at Bernini’s famous Fountain of the Four Rivers. I explained what it represents (turns out she likes all this art stuff) and I mentioned the Danube and she said “what’s the Danube?”

    And this child is smart

    Wtf are we teaching them? The first year of Geography should be “learn all the countries, their capitals, the main rivers, the mountain ranges, the deserts, the oceans and seas, the historic roads and trade routes”. The BASICS

    Thus equipping them with a mental map of the world that will last for a lifetime. Like basic arithmetic. How come we STILL aren’t doing this?

    Do the same for cooking, adding up, shopping, banking, travelling, voting. BASIC LIFE SKILLS

    I did geography GCE in the 1970s. We didn’t get taught the names of rivers, seas, cities etc. It was all ox bow rivers, population densities etc, if I remember correctly.

    What you’re largely talking about is general knowledge. I got that by reading books of facts, dipping in and out of encyclopaedias etc. In other words, books at home and in libraries. I did that on rainy days when I couldn’t go out with my mates on our bikes or to play football etc. There were no mobile phones or computers back then.

    That’s a long way of saying you can’t blame the education system. It’s a much wider issue - and one that parents absolutely need to be aware of and do something about if they believe it’s important for their kids to know this stuff (which it is).

    I do agree on mental arithmetic, though. That should be part if the curriculum. We can’t leave it all to calculators.

    Yes. You’re the same as me. I had atlases and devoured encyclopaedias. I hungered to know more

    But what about kids where the family does not have a book in the house? And general knowledge is not dispersed? This IS a failing of the education system and it is so easily fixed

    Give every child a course in THE BASICS. From the mental map of the world to how to vote in elections (and why) and how a smartphone works to how to do online banking to how to cook a decent roast/curry/breakfast to why we are a democracy. Make it varied and interesting and fun. Basic Life Skills

    Two hours a week every week from 11-16
    It's odd that an author such as yourself thinks that the answer to kids having no books in the house is 'schools'.

    You should team up with Dolly Parton so that every kid in Britain gets a free Tom Knox thriller. That'll certainly teach them some geography. And other things ... ;)

    .
    Swedish boiling and efforts to breed apes with women come to mind.
    Over the years, in addition to my own children, I’ve read through the Oxford Reading Tree with children of friends and family.

    This has resulted in a fair collection of book worms. Several were quite uninterested in reading before - behind their peers in reading etc.

    I would interested to see the results of a study of dropping a box set of the ORT in every home with children in an area, and getting the parents to follow through….
    Children whose parents do not read are always going to be at a disadvantage. The key is to find something that interests them and gets them gripped. Harry Potter has many legitimate criticisms, but spurred a generation to read.

    Similarly, boys who struggle with maths seem to get an understanding of goal difference very quickly.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 31,817
    Pulpstar said:

    dixiedean said:

    Some of the issue comes from UK history.
    We had all the agricultural land and oceans we needed to feed a growing population.
    All the coal to power an Industrial Revolution. All the oil and gas to get us through the oil shock.
    So.
    We must have plentiful shale gas, mustn't we?
    Even the most optimistic projections suggest we simply don't have enough to even replace the loss of North Sea fields. Not even close.

    I think those fields have an important role to play whilst we put up nuclear power plants and wind and solar and batterys. The timescale for all that happening suddenly got a hell of alot more urgent though.
    It’s an order of magnitude problem. Again.

    I get, from time to time, people asking why we can’t just run everything off water mills like they used to. They are startled when I point out how low power traditiomal water mills were - a tiny moped often has more HP…..
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 29,272
    edited August 2022
    Foxy said:

    Sean_F said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Part of this is just appalling education

    Eg my older daughter with whom I have just been in Italy. She has just done Geography GCSE

    We were sitting in the Piazza Navona in Rome looking at Bernini’s famous Fountain of the Four Rivers. I explained what it represents (turns out she likes all this art stuff) and I mentioned the Danube and she said “what’s the Danube?”

    And this child is smart

    Wtf are we teaching them? The first year of Geography should be “learn all the countries, their capitals, the main rivers, the mountain ranges, the deserts, the oceans and seas, the historic roads and trade routes”. The BASICS

    Thus equipping them with a mental map of the world that will last for a lifetime. Like basic arithmetic. How come we STILL aren’t doing this?

    Do the same for cooking, adding up, shopping, banking, travelling, voting. BASIC LIFE SKILLS

    I did geography GCE in the 1970s. We didn’t get taught the names of rivers, seas, cities etc. It was all ox bow rivers, population densities etc, if I remember correctly.

    What you’re largely talking about is general knowledge. I got that by reading books of facts, dipping in and out of encyclopaedias etc. In other words, books at home and in libraries. I did that on rainy days when I couldn’t go out with my mates on our bikes or to play football etc. There were no mobile phones or computers back then.

    That’s a long way of saying you can’t blame the education system. It’s a much wider issue - and one that parents absolutely need to be aware of and do something about if they believe it’s important for their kids to know this stuff (which it is).

    I do agree on mental arithmetic, though. That should be part if the curriculum. We can’t leave it all to calculators.

    Yes. You’re the same as me. I had atlases and devoured encyclopaedias. I hungered to know more

    But what about kids where the family does not have a book in the house? And general knowledge is not dispersed? This IS a failing of the education system and it is so easily fixed

    Give every child a course in THE BASICS. From the mental map of the world to how to vote in elections (and why) and how a smartphone works to how to do online banking to how to cook a decent roast/curry/breakfast to why we are a democracy. Make it varied and interesting and fun. Basic Life Skills

    Two hours a week every week from 11-16
    It's odd that an author such as yourself thinks that the answer to kids having no books in the house is 'schools'.

    You should team up with Dolly Parton so that every kid in Britain gets a free Tom Knox thriller. That'll certainly teach them some geography. And other things ... ;)

    .
    Swedish boiling and efforts to breed apes with women come to mind.
    Over the years, in addition to my own children, I’ve read through the Oxford Reading Tree with children of friends and family.

    This has resulted in a fair collection of book worms. Several were quite uninterested in reading before - behind their peers in reading etc.

    I would interested to see the results of a study of dropping a box set of the ORT in every home with children in an area, and getting the parents to follow through….
    Children whose parents do not read are always going to be at a disadvantage. The key is to find something that interests them and gets them gripped. Harry Potter has many legitimate criticisms, but spurred a generation to read.

    Similarly, boys who struggle with maths seem to get an understanding of goal difference very quickly.
    Playing darts is very good for maths, too!
  • Foxy said:

    eek said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    Part of this is just appalling education

    Eg my older daughter with whom I have just been in Italy. She has just done Geography GCSE

    We were sitting in the Piazza Navona in Rome looking at Bernini’s famous Fountain of the Four Rivers. I explained what it represents (turns out she likes all this art stuff) and I mentioned the Danube and she said “what’s the Danube?”

    And this child is smart

    Wtf are we teaching them? The first year of Geography should be “learn all the countries, their capitals, the main rivers, the mountain ranges, the deserts, the oceans and seas, the historic roads and trade routes”. The BASICS

    Thus equipping them with a mental map of the world that will last for a lifetime. Like basic arithmetic. How come we STILL aren’t doing this?

    Do the same for cooking, adding up, shopping, banking, travelling, voting. BASIC LIFE SKILLS


    This is a recurring (and timeless) complaint of the old about the young, that everything is in decline, they don't know anything, that the education system is failing, etc etc.
    We need to learn things by rote because if we didn't know it looking it up was a grade A pain.

    That simply isn't true anymore when (provided you can identify appropriate search criteria) all information is available anywhere you can get a mobile phone signal...
    I do run across this with my students, and certainly Dr Google can provide a diagnosis. The problem is that a doctor needs enough understanding of anatomy, physiology and pathology to know what questions to ask of Dr Google.
    The complaint about not spotting order of magnitude errors and just believing the calculator is an old one.

    From talking with my daughters, the tricks for getting approximate answers aren’t emphasised in the modern school curriculum.

    My wife corrected a nurse for a medicine dose for my daughter once, for example. Order of magnitude too small…
    Use of the metric system problem!
    Proud grandad writes; Granddaughters Two and Three both got highest grades in Fine Art! I don't know where they get that from!
    You know what is missed in the debate about Dall-E eventually replacing working commercial artists? It is that both Dall-E and many commercial artists are put to shame by A-level art projects. Making a living from art is often more about luck and contacts than genuine talent, although a modicum is needed, of course. Even in the 1960s, probably more art students achieved fame and fortune as rock musicians than as full-time daubers. Good luck to 2 & 3.
  • ClippPClippP Posts: 1,368
    Leon said:

    ClippP said:

    Leon said:

    Part of this is just appalling education

    Eg my older daughter with whom I have just been in Italy. She has just done Geography GCSE

    We were sitting in the Piazza Navona in Rome looking at Bernini’s famous Fountain of the Four Rivers. I explained what it represents (turns out she likes all this art stuff) and I mentioned the Danube and she said “what’s the Danube?”

    And this child is smart

    Wtf are we teaching them? The first year of Geography should be “learn all the countries, their capitals, the main rivers, the mountain ranges, the deserts, the oceans and seas, the historic roads and trade routes”. The BASICS

    Thus equipping them with a mental map of the world that will last for a lifetime. Like basic arithmetic. How come we STILL aren’t doing this?

    Do the same for cooking, adding up, shopping, banking, travelling, voting. BASIC LIFE SKILLS

    Facts are pretty useless by themselves though. Children need to know what they actually mean, how to interpret them. That means learning how to think.

    For example, there was a very large river in China which was mentioned here on PB the other day, where the water is starting to run a bit low. This was discussed on here in some detail, and it was much more interesting and useful than the name of the river
    Yes but you need the name first or you can’t talk about it. And you need to know where the river is, and have a mental map of China, and where China is, so you can put it in context. This is not hard to grasp. This should be taught as part of basic life skills - “why we need basic life skills”
    I would put it the other way round. You have a problem or a situation, such as a long river in China. You then find out what it is called, then you use its name to find out more about it.

    FWIW, when I was at school Geography consisted of the names of towns in England, along with their industries and maps of where they were. We did not travel around much, and did not have a television - so the only link with the real world was football teams and football results, neither of which were of the least importance to me. Geography was the most boring subject there was.

    Until I developed an interest in politics and elections. Then places and their characteristics started to make sense.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 72,844
    Leon said:

    Aha! Speaking of education and my older daughter, I am proudly able to announce that The Older Daughter has just this morning aced her GCSEs

    Straight As across the board. She now proceeds to her chosen 6th Form

    Go, girl (even if she doesn’t know what the Danube is)

    Well done to her, mine needs to master sitting and rolling at the moment.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 32,235
    DearPB said:

    Effectively we're all saying that young people must be stupid because they don't know the things that we know (that the Danube is a river); just don't forget that young people think we're (I'm going with posters being middle aged and above) stupid because we don't know the things that they know - how to share a tiktok video, how to make a podcast, which Kardashian sister is oldest etc.

    Increasingly important is not the need to have knowledge but the ability to find that knowledge when you need it - so an ability to parse the internet to find reliable sources and identify unreliable sources is much more important than holding knowledge in your brain (totally inefficient).

    It can make conversation with young people dull for sure, but we've outsourced knowledge retention to the cloud - the smart people know how to get it out quickly.

    You need a good general knowledge of a subject, in order to understand what is a reliable source, and what is rubbish.
  • eekeek Posts: 22,039
    edited August 2022
    kjh said:

    Sean_F said:

    ydoethur said:

    Carnyx said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Carnyx said:

    Truss has so many big problems I wonder if her team know which to deny first?
    Not supported by most Tory MPs
    Cost of Living catastrophe where the solutions are politically or economically untenable
    A coterie of the wort members of Johnson's government plus a choice of 2019 mince to promote

    If they seriously try and market themselves as a "new" government I expect the response will get pretty brutal. No government would get through this winter without scars. None. But across Europe governments are showing voters they understand the crisis, they are prepared to do whatever it takes, and are putting lots of money into it.

    The only money Trussteam are putting up is new debt to give themselves a tax cut, and opening a credit line in the Fetlife store.

    *googles Fetlife* ... the things one learns on PB. "FetLife is the Social Network for the BDSM, Fetish & Kinky Community. Like Facebook, but run by kinksters like you and me. We think it is more fun that way."
    And there was me thinking it was a harmless website for lovers of feta cheese...
    Indeed. The expertise and knowledge of of PBers is impressive, from moths downward.
    Except on matters to do with religion, judging from last night's increasingly bizarre debate which bore little resemblance to expertise on either side.
    Ignorance of a subject, combined with confidence, is a common combination.
    That has to be one of the best posts for sometime here and should be referenced during many future arguments. Many of us may take notice, one won't.
    One of the things I remember from starting my A levels - was the economics teacher saying - everything you have been taught so far was simplified - and simplified means it's going to be wrong...

    Which means I'm happy to wander off and triple check everything because sods law says the thing I'm looking at is an edge case where the simplification falls apart.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 32,235
    ClippP said:

    Leon said:

    ClippP said:

    Leon said:

    Part of this is just appalling education

    Eg my older daughter with whom I have just been in Italy. She has just done Geography GCSE

    We were sitting in the Piazza Navona in Rome looking at Bernini’s famous Fountain of the Four Rivers. I explained what it represents (turns out she likes all this art stuff) and I mentioned the Danube and she said “what’s the Danube?”

    And this child is smart

    Wtf are we teaching them? The first year of Geography should be “learn all the countries, their capitals, the main rivers, the mountain ranges, the deserts, the oceans and seas, the historic roads and trade routes”. The BASICS

    Thus equipping them with a mental map of the world that will last for a lifetime. Like basic arithmetic. How come we STILL aren’t doing this?

    Do the same for cooking, adding up, shopping, banking, travelling, voting. BASIC LIFE SKILLS

    Facts are pretty useless by themselves though. Children need to know what they actually mean, how to interpret them. That means learning how to think.

    For example, there was a very large river in China which was mentioned here on PB the other day, where the water is starting to run a bit low. This was discussed on here in some detail, and it was much more interesting and useful than the name of the river
    Yes but you need the name first or you can’t talk about it. And you need to know where the river is, and have a mental map of China, and where China is, so you can put it in context. This is not hard to grasp. This should be taught as part of basic life skills - “why we need basic life skills”
    I would put it the other way round. You have a problem or a situation, such as a long river in China. You then find out what it is called, then you use its name to find out more about it.

    FWIW, when I was at school Geography consisted of the names of towns in England, along with their industries and maps of where they were. We did not travel around much, and did not have a television - so the only link with the real world was football teams and football results, neither of which were of the least importance to me. Geography was the most boring subject there was.

    Until I developed an interest in politics and elections. Then places and their characteristics started to make sense.
    Stamp collecting helped geography make sense to me.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 10,741

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Anyway, as a distraction from our current vale of tears, who is this hipster dude? Actually quite a strong connection to a big part of said vale.



    Gladly, the cross-eyed bear?

    I wonder if it’s a young Tolstoy. Certainly looks like a dashing officer in a Tsarist army


    But young Tolstoy was too long ago for photography? I’m doing this without googling..
    You are a credit to old skool, pre Google education.
    Thankyou. Good quiz - there are enough clues in the photo that you can make a decent guess if you have some historical knowledge - the uniform, the facial hair, even the stance - the aristocratic self-assurance.

    However I also knew/know that young Tolstoy was famously handsome (an “indefatigable shagger” as he described his younger self) and had notable cheekbones into old age

    All that and he wrote War and Peace. Dude
    I’m almost tempted to do a ‘there is/was a Russia other than the current quasi-Fascist, raping, torturing, self deceiving iteration’ post, but I’m too fucking weary. Of course all the nasty stuff was always there, but there seem to be very few cultural highs to counter the present lows.
    The culture and the brutality are often wonderfully intertwined in Russia. See Dvenadstat' by Blok which is considered a high point of the 'Silver Age' of Russian poetry but revels in the violence of the Bolshevik revolution.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 8,278
    edited August 2022

    Sean_F said:

    ydoethur said:

    Carnyx said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Carnyx said:

    Truss has so many big problems I wonder if her team know which to deny first?
    Not supported by most Tory MPs
    Cost of Living catastrophe where the solutions are politically or economically untenable
    A coterie of the wort members of Johnson's government plus a choice of 2019 mince to promote

    If they seriously try and market themselves as a "new" government I expect the response will get pretty brutal. No government would get through this winter without scars. None. But across Europe governments are showing voters they understand the crisis, they are prepared to do whatever it takes, and are putting lots of money into it.

    The only money Trussteam are putting up is new debt to give themselves a tax cut, and opening a credit line in the Fetlife store.

    *googles Fetlife* ... the things one learns on PB. "FetLife is the Social Network for the BDSM, Fetish & Kinky Community. Like Facebook, but run by kinksters like you and me. We think it is more fun that way."
    And there was me thinking it was a harmless website for lovers of feta cheese...
    Indeed. The expertise and knowledge of of PBers is impressive, from moths downward.
    Except on matters to do with religion, judging from last night's increasingly bizarre debate which bore little resemblance to expertise on either side.
    Ignorance of a subject, combined with confidence, is a common combination.
    Dunning-Kruger innit.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning–Kruger_effect
    I'm a fan and can think of one person on this site who fits the definition perfectly. Having said that I am often wary (particularly in public where I don't know people), of wading into a topic on which I have opinion in case there is an expert there who then takes my pontifications apart. I tend to wait until I see how the land lies. So I might contradict the effect.

    I have often been nervous before a presentation, thinking 'this is all commonsense and everyone knows what I'm about to tell them'.

    I know @IshmaelZ (I believe) thinks this is total nonsense, but I don't know why. I would love to hear his views.
  • DearPBDearPB Posts: 437
    Foxy said:

    Sean_F said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Part of this is just appalling education

    Eg my older daughter with whom I have just been in Italy. She has just done Geography GCSE

    We were sitting in the Piazza Navona in Rome looking at Bernini’s famous Fountain of the Four Rivers. I explained what it represents (turns out she likes all this art stuff) and I mentioned the Danube and she said “what’s the Danube?”

    And this child is smart

    Wtf are we teaching them? The first year of Geography should be “learn all the countries, their capitals, the main rivers, the mountain ranges, the deserts, the oceans and seas, the historic roads and trade routes”. The BASICS

    Thus equipping them with a mental map of the world that will last for a lifetime. Like basic arithmetic. How come we STILL aren’t doing this?

    Do the same for cooking, adding up, shopping, banking, travelling, voting. BASIC LIFE SKILLS

    I did geography GCE in the 1970s. We didn’t get taught the names of rivers, seas, cities etc. It was all ox bow rivers, population densities etc, if I remember correctly.

    What you’re largely talking about is general knowledge. I got that by reading books of facts, dipping in and out of encyclopaedias etc. In other words, books at home and in libraries. I did that on rainy days when I couldn’t go out with my mates on our bikes or to play football etc. There were no mobile phones or computers back then.

    That’s a long way of saying you can’t blame the education system. It’s a much wider issue - and one that parents absolutely need to be aware of and do something about if they believe it’s important for their kids to know this stuff (which it is).

    I do agree on mental arithmetic, though. That should be part if the curriculum. We can’t leave it all to calculators.

    Yes. You’re the same as me. I had atlases and devoured encyclopaedias. I hungered to know more

    But what about kids where the family does not have a book in the house? And general knowledge is not dispersed? This IS a failing of the education system and it is so easily fixed

    Give every child a course in THE BASICS. From the mental map of the world to how to vote in elections (and why) and how a smartphone works to how to do online banking to how to cook a decent roast/curry/breakfast to why we are a democracy. Make it varied and interesting and fun. Basic Life Skills

    Two hours a week every week from 11-16
    It's odd that an author such as yourself thinks that the answer to kids having no books in the house is 'schools'.

    You should team up with Dolly Parton so that every kid in Britain gets a free Tom Knox thriller. That'll certainly teach them some geography. And other things ... ;)

    .
    Swedish boiling and efforts to breed apes with women come to mind.
    Over the years, in addition to my own children, I’ve read through the Oxford Reading Tree with children of friends and family.

    This has resulted in a fair collection of book worms. Several were quite uninterested in reading before - behind their peers in reading etc.

    I would interested to see the results of a study of dropping a box set of the ORT in every home with children in an area, and getting the parents to follow through….
    Children whose parents do not read are always going to be at a disadvantage. The key is to find something that interests them and gets them gripped. Harry Potter has many legitimate criticisms, but spurred a generation to read.

    Similarly, boys who struggle with maths seem to get an understanding of goal difference very quickly.
    Statistics on household book ownership are certainly terrifying; but it's the parenting bit that is most important. I'm very proud that my two boys won the annual reading prize available to their year group at their prep school this year, but I have to confess that I simply can't read books anymore. Every time I try I get about 50 pages in before abandoning them - even books I've loved in the past. I just speed read things on the internet these days! I try not to let the children realise that!
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 20,299
    Pulpstar said:

    eek said:

    Pulpstar said:

    dixiedean said:

    Some of the issue comes from UK history.
    We had all the agricultural land and oceans we needed to feed a growing population.
    All the coal to power an Industrial Revolution. All the oil and gas to get us through the oil shock.
    So.
    We must have plentiful shale gas, mustn't we?
    Even the most optimistic projections suggest we simply don't have enough to even replace the loss of North Sea fields. Not even close.

    I think those fields have an important role to play whilst we put up nuclear power plants and wind and solar and batterys. The timescale for all that happening suddenly got a hell of alot more urgent though.
    If you've read the posts today - you will see that we have far less Shale gas than was believed and it's proven far harder (and more expensive) to reach than expected.

    This link shows the first point to save you hunting for that post https://www.lse.ac.uk/granthaminstitute/explainers/what-potential-reserves-of-shale-gas-are-there-in-the-uk/#:~:text=Four areas in the UK,Wessex area in Southern England
    I meant the remaining gas fields in the north sea, not fracking fields. Fracking might be viable somewhere in the UK, but it's like hunting for El Dorado at the moment.
    England's best bet might be nuclear. Scottish independence could stuff us on renewables.
    Don't get the nuclear love in. You have to really be shutting ears, eyes, and singing 'la la la' at the moment to think that's a shout.

    I'm open minded to the mini reactors if the security and environmental issues surrounding big nuclear plants can be ameliorated significantly.

    Tidal seems great. Offshore wind is great (even better if we made the turbines here). Incineration of non-recyclable waste is great. Coal and carbon capture should not be ruled out. A way of storing excess renewable energy is vital - not necessarily batteries, there are simpler ways - weights in mineshafts etc.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 10,902
    DearPB said:

    Effectively we're all saying that young people must be stupid because they don't know the things that we know (that the Danube is a river); just don't forget that young people think we're (I'm going with posters being middle aged and above) stupid because we don't know the things that they know - how to share a tiktok video, how to make a podcast, which Kardashian sister is oldest etc.

    Increasingly important is not the need to have knowledge but the ability to find that knowledge when you need it - so an ability to parse the internet to find reliable sources and identify unreliable sources is much more important than holding knowledge in your brain (totally inefficient).

    It can make conversation with young people dull for sure, but we've outsourced knowledge retention to the cloud - the smart people know how to get it out quickly.

    It is notable that the people who seem most prone to falling for nonsense they read online are older.
    I think the main disservice that phones have done to young people is to screw up their attention span. If you can keep them off phones and devices through their primary school years then I suspect/hope that you can prevent too much damage to their cognitive abilities. That has been our strategy at least.
  • eekeek Posts: 22,039
    Pulpstar said:

    eek said:

    Pulpstar said:

    dixiedean said:

    Some of the issue comes from UK history.
    We had all the agricultural land and oceans we needed to feed a growing population.
    All the coal to power an Industrial Revolution. All the oil and gas to get us through the oil shock.
    So.
    We must have plentiful shale gas, mustn't we?
    Even the most optimistic projections suggest we simply don't have enough to even replace the loss of North Sea fields. Not even close.

    I think those fields have an important role to play whilst we put up nuclear power plants and wind and solar and batterys. The timescale for all that happening suddenly got a hell of alot more urgent though.
    If you've read the posts today - you will see that we have far less Shale gas than was believed and it's proven far harder (and more expensive) to reach than expected.

    This link shows the first point to save you hunting for that post https://www.lse.ac.uk/granthaminstitute/explainers/what-potential-reserves-of-shale-gas-are-there-in-the-uk/#:~:text=Four areas in the UK,Wessex area in Southern England
    I meant the remaining gas fields in the north sea, not fracking fields. Fracking might be viable somewhere in the UK, but it's like hunting for El Dorado at the moment.
    England's best bet might be nuclear. Scottish independence could stuff us on renewables.
    As @Richard_Tyndall pointed out earlier this week - the North Sea isn't a priority investment point at the moment because we change the tax regime so often there are other places who are way more trustworthy. So the investment goes there..
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 29,272
    eek said:

    kjh said:

    Sean_F said:

    ydoethur said:

    Carnyx said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Carnyx said:

    Truss has so many big problems I wonder if her team know which to deny first?
    Not supported by most Tory MPs
    Cost of Living catastrophe where the solutions are politically or economically untenable
    A coterie of the wort members of Johnson's government plus a choice of 2019 mince to promote

    If they seriously try and market themselves as a "new" government I expect the response will get pretty brutal. No government would get through this winter without scars. None. But across Europe governments are showing voters they understand the crisis, they are prepared to do whatever it takes, and are putting lots of money into it.

    The only money Trussteam are putting up is new debt to give themselves a tax cut, and opening a credit line in the Fetlife store.

    *googles Fetlife* ... the things one learns on PB. "FetLife is the Social Network for the BDSM, Fetish & Kinky Community. Like Facebook, but run by kinksters like you and me. We think it is more fun that way."
    And there was me thinking it was a harmless website for lovers of feta cheese...
    Indeed. The expertise and knowledge of of PBers is impressive, from moths downward.
    Except on matters to do with religion, judging from last night's increasingly bizarre debate which bore little resemblance to expertise on either side.
    Ignorance of a subject, combined with confidence, is a common combination.
    That has to be one of the best posts for sometime here and should be referenced during many future arguments. Many of us may take notice, one won't.
    One of the things I remember from starting my A levels - was the economics teacher saying - everything you have been taught so far was simplified - and simplified means it's going to be wrong...

    Which means I'm happy to wander off and triple check everything because sods law says the thing I'm looking at is an edge case where the simplification falls apart.
    Granddaughter Two is at a school abroad, which started in mid August. So she's had a couple of weeks of her international baccalaureate course, and has found the study requirements very different to the lower school.
  • Leon said:

    Part of this is just appalling education

    Eg my older daughter with whom I have just been in Italy. She has just done Geography GCSE

    We were sitting in the Piazza Navona in Rome looking at Bernini’s famous Fountain of the Four Rivers. I explained what it represents (turns out she likes all this art stuff) and I mentioned the Danube and she said “what’s the Danube?”

    And this child is smart

    Wtf are we teaching them? The first year of Geography should be “learn all the countries, their capitals, the main rivers, the mountain ranges, the deserts, the oceans and seas, the historic roads and trade routes”. The BASICS

    Thus equipping them with a mental map of the world that will last for a lifetime. Like basic arithmetic. How come we STILL aren’t doing this?

    Do the same for cooking, adding up, shopping, banking, travelling, voting. BASIC LIFE SKILLS

    We are all dumb in some areas. Even you. ;)

    In the case of geography: my son is eight, and in first year he learnt all the continents. More recently, he has done the rain cycle. I'd say that's of more immediate use than learning ponderous lists without context. Knowing about how the main types of rock are formed (sedimentary, metamorphic and igneous) is of much ore use and interest to him at the moment than knowing the capital of Brazil is Brasília.

    My favourite anecdote on this was from NASA. In about 2012, a guy was tasked with writing the official history of the Shuttle program. He got a team together and they wrote it. At a later stage, he got some interns to read through it and comment, the idea being to catch concepts and terms that had not been adequately explained in the text.

    These interns were bright and knowledgeable. Yet one asked: "What is the Cold War' ?
    Yes, we all have different ideas on what's obvious, essential knowledge. Unless there's interesting context, the knowledge doesn't stick anyway. I had little recollection about geography until I started playing board wargames, when the location of Austerlitz and the route of the Danube became keenly important. I still couldn't name or locate many deserts (Sahara, Gobi, and, er...) but I've not really felt the lack.

    Personally I think that simulations of adult life would be more useful and engaging for the Real Life classes. Parenthood, illness, debt, etc. - in critical situations, what are your options? Lots of people flounder. Location of Katmandu? Not so much.
    On that note of context and recalling geography when needed, it turns out the same is true for languages. Front page of today's Times.

    Recalling a language after 50 years? It’s like remembering how to faire du vélo

    For those who struggled at the back of French class with irregular verbs, cursing “la plume de ma tante”, your perseverance was not in vain,

    As well as never forgetting how to ride a bike, most people also never forget how to faire du vélo and can remember many other foreign language phrases, years after leaving school.

    Even those who learnt French 50 years ago — and have never used it since — have similar recall to those who have just taken their exams, academics claim. This is particularly true in emergencies.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/recalling-a-language-after-50-years-its-like-remembering-how-to-faire-du-velo-cjg7jrdj8 (£££)
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Leon said:

    One thing that depresses me about Gen Z is their passive incuriosity. They don’t really WANT to know stuff

    I wonder if this is a function of smartphones. All the world’s information is available in 3 seconds of tapping. Why bother learning it? Or reading about it?

    Yet this attitude makes you complacent and inert. The world is shit that happens. Whatever. Etc



    What's old is new etc
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 23,274

    Sean_F said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Selebian said:

    Glad we've parked the NT discussion (apparently). So, anyone want to join me in a discussion on the veracity of the Gospel of the Flying Spaghetti Monster?

    Well......

    Keir Starmer may come to miss Boris Johnson. Some historians believe that each prime minister is the antithesis of their predecessor, as we always replace overly charismatic leaders with boring ones. The historian David Starkey says all PMs are either bookies or bishops, and that the righteous Starmer has just lost his useful sinner. “Boris is the archetypal cheating bookie,” Starkey tells All Talk.

    “Starmer is worse than a bishop: he’s a moderator of the Church of Scotland.” The theory might fall down if Liz Truss wins. It’s hard to see how she could be viewed as a bishop, though she might be more of a nun-entity.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/being-pms-a-holy-calling-t8nbfklgt
    Truss does not easily fall into the category of either charismatic or dull. She is no Brown or Major or Callaghan. But then again, she clearly isn't a Wilson, Thatcher, Blair or Cameron.

    If I had to choose an analog for Ms Truss, it would not be a British politician.

    I've just cracked up laughing watching Harold Wilson in the Crown, having to repeat to the Queen, the obscene limericks shared by Princess Margaret and Lyndon Johnson.

    Nervously, Wilson begins "There once was a woman from Dallas, who enjoyed a dynamite phallus"

    Queen, poker-faced, " You've come this f

    "She left her vagina, in North Carolina, and
    her arsehole in Buckingham Palace."
    I sort of went off the Crown. Olivia Coleman played it as Olivia Coleman with an accent - perhaps she couldn’t help herself - and I thought the producers wouldn’t be able to help themselves with the Thatcher years and, low and behold, I was right.

    It was best done as a period piece in the 50s and 60s and left at that.
    Agreed. Olivia Colman, good actress though she is, was miscast as HMQ. She should have played Thatcher. Gillian Anderson played Thatcher as a parody.

    The only characters well acted were Wilson, Charles and Anne and, above all, Philip, beautifully played by Tobias Menzies.

    But the earlier period was also more interesting because it was about the transition to becoming Queen and the personal and political aspects of that, as well as interesting depictions of events from the country's past.

    Kieran Hodgson's parody of the latest series is amusing - https://youtu.be/uZUsuVIe8O0.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 72,844

    Pulpstar said:

    eek said:

    Pulpstar said:

    dixiedean said:

    Some of the issue comes from UK history.
    We had all the agricultural land and oceans we needed to feed a growing population.
    All the coal to power an Industrial Revolution. All the oil and gas to get us through the oil shock.
    So.
    We must have plentiful shale gas, mustn't we?
    Even the most optimistic projections suggest we simply don't have enough to even replace the loss of North Sea fields. Not even close.

    I think those fields have an important role to play whilst we put up nuclear power plants and wind and solar and batterys. The timescale for all that happening suddenly got a hell of alot more urgent though.
    If you've read the posts today - you will see that we have far less Shale gas than was believed and it's proven far harder (and more expensive) to reach than expected.

    This link shows the first point to save you hunting for that post https://www.lse.ac.uk/granthaminstitute/explainers/what-potential-reserves-of-shale-gas-are-there-in-the-uk/#:~:text=Four areas in the UK,Wessex area in Southern England
    I meant the remaining gas fields in the north sea, not fracking fields. Fracking might be viable somewhere in the UK, but it's like hunting for El Dorado at the moment.
    England's best bet might be nuclear. Scottish independence could stuff us on renewables.
    Don't get the nuclear love in. You have to really be shutting ears, eyes, and singing 'la la la' at the moment to think that's a shout.

    I'm open minded to the mini reactors if the security and environmental issues surrounding big nuclear plants can be ameliorated significantly.

    Tidal seems great. Offshore wind is great (even better if we made the turbines here). Incineration of non-recyclable waste is great. Coal and carbon capture should not be ruled out. A way of storing excess renewable energy is vital - not necessarily batteries, there are simpler ways - weights in mineshafts etc.
    Renewables are fine if we remain as an entire United Kingdom - basically Scotland has much of the prime wind location in the UK. Scotland leaving the UK presents a real energy problem for England.. it's a big card for the nats whether you like it or not.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 29,101
    I believe there has historically been a correlation between number of books in a house and childrens' academic performance.

    How does that playout in the age of the tablet?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 31,817
    eek said:

    Pulpstar said:

    eek said:

    Pulpstar said:

    dixiedean said:

    Some of the issue comes from UK history.
    We had all the agricultural land and oceans we needed to feed a growing population.
    All the coal to power an Industrial Revolution. All the oil and gas to get us through the oil shock.
    So.
    We must have plentiful shale gas, mustn't we?
    Even the most optimistic projections suggest we simply don't have enough to even replace the loss of North Sea fields. Not even close.

    I think those fields have an important role to play whilst we put up nuclear power plants and wind and solar and batterys. The timescale for all that happening suddenly got a hell of alot more urgent though.
    If you've read the posts today - you will see that we have far less Shale gas than was believed and it's proven far harder (and more expensive) to reach than expected.

    This link shows the first point to save you hunting for that post https://www.lse.ac.uk/granthaminstitute/explainers/what-potential-reserves-of-shale-gas-are-there-in-the-uk/#:~:text=Four areas in the UK,Wessex area in Southern England
    I meant the remaining gas fields in the north sea, not fracking fields. Fracking might be viable somewhere in the UK, but it's like hunting for El Dorado at the moment.
    England's best bet might be nuclear. Scottish independence could stuff us on renewables.
    As @Richard_Tyndall pointed out earlier this week - the North Sea isn't a priority investment point at the moment because we change the tax regime so often there are other places who are way more trustworthy. So the investment goes there..
    There is more than enough potential for offshore wind all around the British Isles for everyone, incidentally. Enough for x times the entire current national grid. The estimates are a bit like the definitions of reserves for oil and gas - what is proven? - but there is far more than we need.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 30,379
    Pulpstar said:

    Leon said:

    Aha! Speaking of education and my older daughter, I am proudly able to announce that The Older Daughter has just this morning aced her GCSEs

    Straight As across the board. She now proceeds to her chosen 6th Form

    Go, girl (even if she doesn’t know what the Danube is)

    Well done to her, mine needs to master sitting and rolling at the moment.
    Enjoy. Before you know it they are heading out of the door
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 10,902
    kjh said:

    Sean_F said:

    ydoethur said:

    Carnyx said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Carnyx said:

    Truss has so many big problems I wonder if her team know which to deny first?
    Not supported by most Tory MPs
    Cost of Living catastrophe where the solutions are politically or economically untenable
    A coterie of the wort members of Johnson's government plus a choice of 2019 mince to promote

    If they seriously try and market themselves as a "new" government I expect the response will get pretty brutal. No government would get through this winter without scars. None. But across Europe governments are showing voters they understand the crisis, they are prepared to do whatever it takes, and are putting lots of money into it.

    The only money Trussteam are putting up is new debt to give themselves a tax cut, and opening a credit line in the Fetlife store.

    *googles Fetlife* ... the things one learns on PB. "FetLife is the Social Network for the BDSM, Fetish & Kinky Community. Like Facebook, but run by kinksters like you and me. We think it is more fun that way."
    And there was me thinking it was a harmless website for lovers of feta cheese...
    Indeed. The expertise and knowledge of of PBers is impressive, from moths downward.
    Except on matters to do with religion, judging from last night's increasingly bizarre debate which bore little resemblance to expertise on either side.
    Ignorance of a subject, combined with confidence, is a common combination.
    Dunning-Kruger innit.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning–Kruger_effect
    I'm a fan and can think of one person on this site who fits the definition perfectly. Having said that I am often wary (particularly in public where I don't know people), of wading into a topic on which I have opinion in case there is an expert there who then takes my pontifications apart. I tend to wait until I see how the land lies. So I might contradict the effect.

    I have often been nervous before a presentation, thinking 'this is all commonsense and everyone knows what I'm about to tell them'.

    I know @IshmaelZ (I believe) thinks this is total nonsense, but I don't know why. I would love to hear his views.
    We have a real problem with this in this country, especially since expensive private education seems to be more about the confidence than the knowledge. I used to work in a firm dominated by people who knew less than me talking over me. I am much happier now working somewhere where people value expertise and think before they speak. Most of my colleagues are not British, needless to say.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 31,817

    Pulpstar said:

    eek said:

    Pulpstar said:

    dixiedean said:

    Some of the issue comes from UK history.
    We had all the agricultural land and oceans we needed to feed a growing population.
    All the coal to power an Industrial Revolution. All the oil and gas to get us through the oil shock.
    So.
    We must have plentiful shale gas, mustn't we?
    Even the most optimistic projections suggest we simply don't have enough to even replace the loss of North Sea fields. Not even close.

    I think those fields have an important role to play whilst we put up nuclear power plants and wind and solar and batterys. The timescale for all that happening suddenly got a hell of alot more urgent though.
    If you've read the posts today - you will see that we have far less Shale gas than was believed and it's proven far harder (and more expensive) to reach than expected.

    This link shows the first point to save you hunting for that post https://www.lse.ac.uk/granthaminstitute/explainers/what-potential-reserves-of-shale-gas-are-there-in-the-uk/#:~:text=Four areas in the UK,Wessex area in Southern England
    I meant the remaining gas fields in the north sea, not fracking fields. Fracking might be viable somewhere in the UK, but it's like hunting for El Dorado at the moment.
    England's best bet might be nuclear. Scottish independence could stuff us on renewables.
    Don't get the nuclear love in. You have to really be shutting ears, eyes, and singing 'la la la' at the moment to think that's a shout.

    I'm open minded to the mini reactors if the security and environmental issues surrounding big nuclear plants can be ameliorated significantly.

    Tidal seems great. Offshore wind is great (even better if we made the turbines here). Incineration of non-recyclable waste is great. Coal and carbon capture should not be ruled out. A way of storing excess renewable energy is vital - not necessarily batteries, there are simpler ways - weights in mineshafts etc.
    Weights in mineshafts - that’s an order of magnitude problem. You can’t store enough energy that way.

    Carbon capture from coal hasn’t been made to work. Despite massive investment from the coal interests in the US, for example…

    There is some interesting news about Aluminium Sulfur batteries though…..
  • FishingFishing Posts: 3,797
    eek said:

    kjh said:

    Sean_F said:

    ydoethur said:

    Carnyx said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Carnyx said:

    Truss has so many big problems I wonder if her team know which to deny first?
    Not supported by most Tory MPs
    Cost of Living catastrophe where the solutions are politically or economically untenable
    A coterie of the wort members of Johnson's government plus a choice of 2019 mince to promote

    If they seriously try and market themselves as a "new" government I expect the response will get pretty brutal. No government would get through this winter without scars. None. But across Europe governments are showing voters they understand the crisis, they are prepared to do whatever it takes, and are putting lots of money into it.

    The only money Trussteam are putting up is new debt to give themselves a tax cut, and opening a credit line in the Fetlife store.

    *googles Fetlife* ... the things one learns on PB. "FetLife is the Social Network for the BDSM, Fetish & Kinky Community. Like Facebook, but run by kinksters like you and me. We think it is more fun that way."
    And there was me thinking it was a harmless website for lovers of feta cheese...
    Indeed. The expertise and knowledge of of PBers is impressive, from moths downward.
    Except on matters to do with religion, judging from last night's increasingly bizarre debate which bore little resemblance to expertise on either side.
    Ignorance of a subject, combined with confidence, is a common combination.
    That has to be one of the best posts for sometime here and should be referenced during many future arguments. Many of us may take notice, one won't.
    One of the things I remember from starting my A levels - was the economics teacher saying - everything you have been taught so far was simplified - and simplified means it's going to be wrong...
    That's funny because when I started my doctorate in economics my tutor said exactly the same thing.

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