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  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 17,547
    It’s depressing to understand that local plans are so easily circumvented.

    The issue isn’t so much NIMBYism as the soviet-style planning system, which is all about “should not” and hands power to an oligopoly of cookie-cutting house builders.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 82,491
    edited August 2022

    It’s depressing to understand that local plans are so easily circumvented.

    The issue isn’t so much NIMBYism as the soviet-style planning system, which is all about “should not” and hands power to an oligopoly of cookie-cutting house builders.

    It's a toxic mixture of problems. Policy failings, systemic flaws, severe developer manipulations. NIMBYism is real and a problem, and some of the other issues are attempts to work around it, but frustrating as NIMBYism is it is not actually the main problem, just very visible.

    Those who actually experience the local end of the planning system like those serving on the local committees, unlike HYUFD's idealist view, are frequently very frustrated by the limitations they face in doing what local communities want, even when local communities have done the right thing in preparing plans and have sound issues to raise.
  • Andy_CookeAndy_Cooke Posts: 4,507
    The most frustrating thing (and I speak as a committed "YIMBY") to discover is just how calculating the large builders are.

    I've mentioned it a few times, but that's because it infuriates me: we set out a strategic site for well over 4,000 homes (the entire district had only 50,000 homes not long ago, and this is just one site that we made available). Outline planning permission was granted.

    The developer informed us they'd be building out over 25 years "due to market forces." Essentially - they wanted to ensure supply was still constrained in order that prices didn't fall. And we're powerless to do anything about it.

    Worse, if this happens to all the big strategic sites, then it will be concluded that we will not see sufficient housing built over the next five years to meet our five year land supply. Despite being in the top ten DCs in the country (out of several hundred) for planning permissions granted.

    Meanwhile, we get people snarking at us for being NIMBYs, which does, I confess, piss me off a bit.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 107,147

    HYUFD said:

    The town council planning committee can only give an opinion to the decision-makers; it cannot do anything more than that. Their response will be added to all of those from statutory consultees. Don't big yourself up on that.

    If the Committee overrule a Planning Officer recommendation and refuse an application without having very sound grounds to do so (and avoiding being "weak" is not sound grounds), then the inevitable appeal will be successful and costs will be awarded against you. It's a minefield, and if you think it's about being "strong" or "weak," then you will lose far more cases than you can imagine. The Planning Inspectorate doesn't give two craps about your ego.

    If you think Planning Officers "just implement [their] decisions," you have a lot more learning to do than I thought you did. Hopefully it will not be too much to the detriment of your residents.

    The Local Plan has to go through the Planning Inspectorate first anyway, so it is highly unlikely they will overturn the very Plan they approved. Planning Officers advise, it is still the Planning Cttee that decide.

    If the District Planning Cttee ignore the town council planning cttee which is closer to the ground in the area they in turn likely lose their seats at the next election
    You have much to learn.
    Nope, the Local Plan has the authority of statute and once approved by the Inspector cannot be thrown out
  • Andy_CookeAndy_Cooke Posts: 4,507
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    The town council planning committee can only give an opinion to the decision-makers; it cannot do anything more than that. Their response will be added to all of those from statutory consultees. Don't big yourself up on that.

    If the Committee overrule a Planning Officer recommendation and refuse an application without having very sound grounds to do so (and avoiding being "weak" is not sound grounds), then the inevitable appeal will be successful and costs will be awarded against you. It's a minefield, and if you think it's about being "strong" or "weak," then you will lose far more cases than you can imagine. The Planning Inspectorate doesn't give two craps about your ego.

    If you think Planning Officers "just implement [their] decisions," you have a lot more learning to do than I thought you did. Hopefully it will not be too much to the detriment of your residents.

    The Local Plan has to go through the Planning Inspectorate first anyway, so it is highly unlikely they will overturn the very Plan they approved. Planning Officers advise, it is still the Planning Cttee that decide.

    If the District Planning Cttee ignore the town council planning cttee which is closer to the ground in the area they in turn likely lose their seats at the next election
    You have much to learn.
    Nope, the Local Plan has the authority of statute and once approved by the Inspector cannot be thrown out
    That's not what we're saying, as you'd understand if you'd attended a proper Planning Committee meeting or several.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 107,147
    edited August 2022
    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    The town council planning committee can only give an opinion to the decision-makers; it cannot do anything more than that. Their response will be added to all of those from statutory consultees. Don't big yourself up on that.

    If the Committee overrule a Planning Officer recommendation and refuse an application without having very sound grounds to do so (and avoiding being "weak" is not sound grounds), then the inevitable appeal will be successful and costs will be awarded against you. It's a minefield, and if you think it's about being "strong" or "weak," then you will lose far more cases than you can imagine. The Planning Inspectorate doesn't give two craps about your ego.

    If you think Planning Officers "just implement [their] decisions," you have a lot more learning to do than I thought you did. Hopefully it will not be too much to the detriment of your residents.

    The Local Plan has to go through the Planning Inspectorate first anyway, so it is highly unlikely they will overturn the very Plan they approved. Planning Officers advise, it is still the Planning Cttee that decide.

    If the District Planning Cttee ignore the town council planning cttee which is closer to the ground in the area they in turn likely lose their seats at the next election
    Local authority committees go against the local town or parish councils a lot you know - most of them, after all, will not be representing that parish or town in any case, so even if that was a consideration at the back of someone's mind, that would not matter because they would not be at risk of losing their seat at the next election - why would voters on the far side of the district punish someone on a planning committee for approving/refusing contrary to the wish of a town council nowhere near them?

    The local member for the area will usually argue the case of course, but the committee will make its own mind up. The plan will be of more importance than the mere views of a local council, if the views of that council are not sound (indeed, if the local council's view is due to the local plan, the officers will probably be agreeing with it). Committees will pay attention to the local council, and I've certainly seem them swayed by its views as they have by local representations, but you once again ascribe far too much power to the parish council view. You genuinely appear to believe it is all that matters, when thousands of permissions (or refusals) not desired by the local council prove otherwise.

    Example - the local parish council says they think the highway is dangerous and so permission should be refused on that basis. Highways officers and consultants say otherwise. The planning committee will almost certainly not go with the local council because if it is appealed, they will not have the actual evidence of severe harm on highways grounds that would be required. Another example - the local council and officers disagree on whether an applicaiton is contrary to the local plan. The committee go with the local council, and an inspector may or may not agree.
    However if the local ward district councillors push through an unpopular development against the wishes of local people and town councillors then undoubtedly they will get thrown out at the next election
  • Andy_CookeAndy_Cooke Posts: 4,507
    HYUFD - go and read a few appeal judgements by the Planning Inspector.

    Also learn about pre-determination and what it means if it happens (essentially what you’ve advocated the ward councillors do - not that a single councillor or even two councillors can overrule the Planning Committee, even if they’re on it, which often they won’t be. And what you seem to be advocating that elected members try to bully officers into doing).
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 48,955

    There's been a new thread for about nine hours

  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 48,955
    Of course, you might like talking here among yourselves.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 82,491
    rcs1000 said:

    Of course, you might like talking here among yourselves.

    Trying to spare people continuation of 'Basic lessons in planning law, bias and predetermination'. Apparently none of those three matter...for some reason, but try telling that to planning inspectors and the courts.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 107,147
    edited August 2022

    HYUFD - go and read a few appeal judgements by the Planning Inspector.

    Also learn about pre-determination and what it means if it happens (essentially what you’ve advocated the ward councillors do - not that a single councillor or even two councillors can overrule the Planning Committee, even if they’re on it, which often they won’t be. And what you seem to be advocating that elected members try to bully officers into doing).

    You cannot appeal on the grounds the local plan is wrong, once approved by the planning inspector the local plan stands absolutely. You can appeal on the grounds of extension to your house etc but that is a different matter.

    Planning Officers are local civil servants, nothing more. Elected councillors on the planning cttee ultimately decide
  • Andy_CookeAndy_Cooke Posts: 4,507
    As HYUFD will never admit that he doesn’t know it all already without needing any relevant experience or knowledge, for anyone else reading this, you’ll probably have picked up that he’s badly wrong.
    If you’d like any relevant actual information on the subject, contact me or kle.
This discussion has been closed.