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The Roe v Wade ruling has made the Midterms less predictable – politicalbetting.com

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Comments

  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 28,779

    If there was a smidgeon of doubt, Rishi only interested in talking to one section of the NI population.







    British isles? Or is that not correct?
    Britain is one of the islands, Ireland the other (major) one, so you could as well say the Irish Isles as the British Isles.

    But, anyway, the Good Friday Agreement allows everyone in Northern Ireland to identify as British, and it's pretty safe to assume that any members of the Conservative and Unionist Party will identify as British, though they may think of themselves as Irish as well.

    The criticism is bizarre. How many Irish Republicans would you expect to find as members of the Tory party?
    Britannia was the name the Romans originally gave to the whole of the British Isles including Ireland. Nor did the Romans ever refer to just the largest island as Britannia. They transferred the name to the specific province they ruled in the southern half of that largest island. It only came to refer to the largest island alone after the act of Union in 1707.

    Geographically The British Isles are the whole archipelago including Ireland. But of course that derives from the fact that the British (as opposed to the Irish) wrote the rules and named stuff.

    As an aside interestingly, names can of course change and quite quickly. The North Sea was usually known as The German Sea until the middle of the 18th Century. Perhaps in the future The British Isles will indeed be The Irish Isles. It does have a rather more poetic alliteration to it.
    Just look at the Royal Family. Or German biscuits, sorry Belgian, sorry Empire biscuits.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 56,563
    edited August 2022

    The Russian retreat continues...

    The Kyiv Independent
    @KyivIndependent
    ⚡️Russia pulls military aircraft out of Crimean airbases after recent explosions.

    The Ukrainian Defense Ministry's Main Intelligence Directorate reported that no less than 24 planes and 14 helicopters had been transferred out of airfields in Crimea.


    https://mobile.twitter.com/KyivIndependent/status/1559963717860737024

    Putin's invasion is a military disaster that will be studied for decades.

    It must be the most spectacularly counterproductive invasion of a country since the First Coalition issued the Brunswick Manifesto demanding the safety of Louis XVI and then invaded from Koblenz, uniting the French against them and leading to the extermination of the royal family.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 56,563

    The Russian retreat continues...

    The Kyiv Independent
    @KyivIndependent
    ⚡️Russia pulls military aircraft out of Crimean airbases after recent explosions.

    The Ukrainian Defense Ministry's Main Intelligence Directorate reported that no less than 24 planes and 14 helicopters had been transferred out of airfields in Crimea.


    https://mobile.twitter.com/KyivIndependent/status/1559963717860737024

    Putin's invasion is a military disaster that will be studied for decades.

    And all apparently down to accidents and mistakes.

    Apparently, the popular brand of cigarette smoked by Russian soldiers, standing next to ammunition dumps is….

    Lucky Strike.
    Good effort. He can't BAT that one away.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 17,547
    Carnyx said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    kle4 said:

    If there was a smidgeon of doubt, Rishi only interested in talking to one section of the NI population.







    British isles? Or is that not correct?
    Britain is one of the islands, Ireland the other (major) one, so you could as well say the Irish Isles as the British Isles.

    But, anyway, the Good Friday Agreement allows everyone in Northern Ireland to identify as British, and it's pretty safe to assume that any members of the Conservative and Unionist Party will identify as British, though they may think of themselves as Irish as well.

    The criticism is bizarre. How many Irish Republicans would you expect to find as members of the Tory party?
    Britannia was the name the Romans originally gave to the whole of the British Isles including Ireland. Nor did the Romans ever refer to just the largest island as Britannia. They transferred the name to the specific province they ruled in the southern half of that largest island. It only came to refer to the largest island alone after the act of Union in 1707.

    Geographically The British Isles are the whole archipelago including Ireland. But of course that derives from the fact that the British (as opposed to the Irish) wrote the rules and named stuff.

    As an aside interestingly, names can of course change and quite quickly. The North Sea was usually known as The German Sea until the middle of the 18th Century. Perhaps in the future The British Isles will indeed be The Irish Isles. It does have a rather more poetic alliteration to it.
    Better than Islands of the North Atlantic, which was apparently one suggestion.

    I'd be happy with British-Irish Isles, though who knows what a Manxer would think of it.

    Wiki tells me UK Law uses the subtly different 'British Islands' to include the bits that include the UK, Channel Islands and Isle of Man. So if someone uses that one they are not including the Republic and are well set if someone gets huffy about the name.

    Edit: Another suggestion was Anglo-Celtic Isles, which I guess might be more accurate than British?
    The advantage of "Islands Of the North Atlantic" is that you can then use the initialism of IONA, which appeals, although may cause some confusion with the Island of Iona when used in speech.

    The Atlantic Archipelago is another alternative that has been proposed, but I tend simply to use "Britain and Ireland".
    Bloody terrible idea. North Atlantic goes all the way to the equator so that's everything from iceland to the canaries and cape verde, and west to bermuda.
    The Atlantic is in general oceanographic terms normally split into three, South Atlantic, Tropical Atlantic and North Atlantic.

    But anyway, I didn't say that IONA was a perfect option.
    Isles of Britain and Ireland is the current term in some circles.
    What crap.

    British Isles DNE UK of Great Britain and NI
    North America DNE USA
    Europe DNE European Union

    Cf also British, American, and possibly too, European.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 28,779

    Carnyx said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    kle4 said:

    If there was a smidgeon of doubt, Rishi only interested in talking to one section of the NI population.







    British isles? Or is that not correct?
    Britain is one of the islands, Ireland the other (major) one, so you could as well say the Irish Isles as the British Isles.

    But, anyway, the Good Friday Agreement allows everyone in Northern Ireland to identify as British, and it's pretty safe to assume that any members of the Conservative and Unionist Party will identify as British, though they may think of themselves as Irish as well.

    The criticism is bizarre. How many Irish Republicans would you expect to find as members of the Tory party?
    Britannia was the name the Romans originally gave to the whole of the British Isles including Ireland. Nor did the Romans ever refer to just the largest island as Britannia. They transferred the name to the specific province they ruled in the southern half of that largest island. It only came to refer to the largest island alone after the act of Union in 1707.

    Geographically The British Isles are the whole archipelago including Ireland. But of course that derives from the fact that the British (as opposed to the Irish) wrote the rules and named stuff.

    As an aside interestingly, names can of course change and quite quickly. The North Sea was usually known as The German Sea until the middle of the 18th Century. Perhaps in the future The British Isles will indeed be The Irish Isles. It does have a rather more poetic alliteration to it.
    Better than Islands of the North Atlantic, which was apparently one suggestion.

    I'd be happy with British-Irish Isles, though who knows what a Manxer would think of it.

    Wiki tells me UK Law uses the subtly different 'British Islands' to include the bits that include the UK, Channel Islands and Isle of Man. So if someone uses that one they are not including the Republic and are well set if someone gets huffy about the name.

    Edit: Another suggestion was Anglo-Celtic Isles, which I guess might be more accurate than British?
    The advantage of "Islands Of the North Atlantic" is that you can then use the initialism of IONA, which appeals, although may cause some confusion with the Island of Iona when used in speech.

    The Atlantic Archipelago is another alternative that has been proposed, but I tend simply to use "Britain and Ireland".
    Bloody terrible idea. North Atlantic goes all the way to the equator so that's everything from iceland to the canaries and cape verde, and west to bermuda.
    The Atlantic is in general oceanographic terms normally split into three, South Atlantic, Tropical Atlantic and North Atlantic.

    But anyway, I didn't say that IONA was a perfect option.
    Isles of Britain and Ireland is the current term in some circles.
    What crap.

    British Isles DNE UK of Great Britain and NI
    North America DNE USA
    Europe DNE European Union

    Cf also British, American, and possibly too, European.
    I AM talking about the bits of isolated land not including Heligoland, the Canaries, and the Faeroes. Not the UK.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 31,942
    ydoethur said:

    The Russian retreat continues...

    The Kyiv Independent
    @KyivIndependent
    ⚡️Russia pulls military aircraft out of Crimean airbases after recent explosions.

    The Ukrainian Defense Ministry's Main Intelligence Directorate reported that no less than 24 planes and 14 helicopters had been transferred out of airfields in Crimea.


    https://mobile.twitter.com/KyivIndependent/status/1559963717860737024

    Putin's invasion is a military disaster that will be studied for decades.

    And all apparently down to accidents and mistakes.

    Apparently, the popular brand of cigarette smoked by Russian soldiers, standing next to ammunition dumps is….

    Lucky Strike.
    Good effort. He can't BAT that one away.
    He will have the gaul(oises) to try..

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 82,491

    kle4 said:

    IDK, for the modern era these membership numbers still look perfectly decent, after periods of unusual rises.

    Keir Starmer's Labour lost an "alarming" 100,000 members in 2021, according to the party's latest annual accounts...

    At the end of 2020 total membership stood at 523,332, but fell by over 91,000 to 432,213 in December 2021.


    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/keir-starmers-labour-lost-almost-27763417

    LDs also dropped quite a bit apparently.

    Do you have a source for the "apparently" comment?
    Guido includes it, which is more than the Mirror could be bothered it seems. I can't actually see it on the Commission.

    https://order-order.com/2022/08/17/labour-membership-down-91000-libdems-down-by-25000/
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 17,547
    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    kle4 said:

    If there was a smidgeon of doubt, Rishi only interested in talking to one section of the NI population.







    British isles? Or is that not correct?
    Britain is one of the islands, Ireland the other (major) one, so you could as well say the Irish Isles as the British Isles.

    But, anyway, the Good Friday Agreement allows everyone in Northern Ireland to identify as British, and it's pretty safe to assume that any members of the Conservative and Unionist Party will identify as British, though they may think of themselves as Irish as well.

    The criticism is bizarre. How many Irish Republicans would you expect to find as members of the Tory party?
    Britannia was the name the Romans originally gave to the whole of the British Isles including Ireland. Nor did the Romans ever refer to just the largest island as Britannia. They transferred the name to the specific province they ruled in the southern half of that largest island. It only came to refer to the largest island alone after the act of Union in 1707.

    Geographically The British Isles are the whole archipelago including Ireland. But of course that derives from the fact that the British (as opposed to the Irish) wrote the rules and named stuff.

    As an aside interestingly, names can of course change and quite quickly. The North Sea was usually known as The German Sea until the middle of the 18th Century. Perhaps in the future The British Isles will indeed be The Irish Isles. It does have a rather more poetic alliteration to it.
    Better than Islands of the North Atlantic, which was apparently one suggestion.

    I'd be happy with British-Irish Isles, though who knows what a Manxer would think of it.

    Wiki tells me UK Law uses the subtly different 'British Islands' to include the bits that include the UK, Channel Islands and Isle of Man. So if someone uses that one they are not including the Republic and are well set if someone gets huffy about the name.

    Edit: Another suggestion was Anglo-Celtic Isles, which I guess might be more accurate than British?
    The advantage of "Islands Of the North Atlantic" is that you can then use the initialism of IONA, which appeals, although may cause some confusion with the Island of Iona when used in speech.

    The Atlantic Archipelago is another alternative that has been proposed, but I tend simply to use "Britain and Ireland".
    Bloody terrible idea. North Atlantic goes all the way to the equator so that's everything from iceland to the canaries and cape verde, and west to bermuda.
    The Atlantic is in general oceanographic terms normally split into three, South Atlantic, Tropical Atlantic and North Atlantic.

    But anyway, I didn't say that IONA was a perfect option.
    Isles of Britain and Ireland is the current term in some circles.
    What crap.

    British Isles DNE UK of Great Britain and NI
    North America DNE USA
    Europe DNE European Union

    Cf also British, American, and possibly too, European.
    I AM talking about the bits of isolated land not including Heligoland, the Canaries, and the Faeroes. Not the UK.
    Me too.
    They’re called the British Isles.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 56,563

    ydoethur said:

    The Russian retreat continues...

    The Kyiv Independent
    @KyivIndependent
    ⚡️Russia pulls military aircraft out of Crimean airbases after recent explosions.

    The Ukrainian Defense Ministry's Main Intelligence Directorate reported that no less than 24 planes and 14 helicopters had been transferred out of airfields in Crimea.


    https://mobile.twitter.com/KyivIndependent/status/1559963717860737024

    Putin's invasion is a military disaster that will be studied for decades.

    And all apparently down to accidents and mistakes.

    Apparently, the popular brand of cigarette smoked by Russian soldiers, standing next to ammunition dumps is….

    Lucky Strike.
    Good effort. He can't BAT that one away.
    He will have the gaul(oises) to try..

    Can we keep this up for 555 posts?
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 6,891
    Ukranian strategy is to create chaos within Russian forces as opposed to the Russian strategy of flattening everything in its path with a giant fist.

    (Gordon's clunking fist as Russian military doctine - seems quite appropriate)

    https://nitter.net/PhillipsPOBrien/status/1559862531090440193?ref_src=twsrc^google|twcamp^serp|twgr^tweet

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/aug/16/creating-chaos-zelenskiys-adviser-outlines-ukraines-military-strategy
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 32,260
    ydoethur said:

    The Russian retreat continues...

    The Kyiv Independent
    @KyivIndependent
    ⚡️Russia pulls military aircraft out of Crimean airbases after recent explosions.

    The Ukrainian Defense Ministry's Main Intelligence Directorate reported that no less than 24 planes and 14 helicopters had been transferred out of airfields in Crimea.


    https://mobile.twitter.com/KyivIndependent/status/1559963717860737024

    Putin's invasion is a military disaster that will be studied for decades.

    It must be the most spectacularly counterproductive invasion of a country since the First Coalition issued the Brunswick Manifesto demanding the safety of Louis XVI and then invaded from Koblenz, uniting the French against them and leading to the extermination of the royal family.
    I've got that beat. Manius Aquilius, Governor of Asia Province, thought it an absolutely splendid idea to attack Mithridates of Pontus, despite being hugely outnumbered. He simply assumed that one Roman soldier was worth ten effeminate orientals. It ended with him having molten gold poured down his throat, in front of a cheering crowd of Ephesians.

    Then there were the Tartars, who thought it fine sport to kidnap and rape Borte, the wife of Genghis Khan. That went about as well for them as you'd expect.
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 2,356
    kle4 said:

    If there was a smidgeon of doubt, Rishi only interested in talking to one section of the NI population.







    British isles? Or is that not correct?
    Britain is one of the islands, Ireland the other (major) one, so you could as well say the Irish Isles as the British Isles.

    But, anyway, the Good Friday Agreement allows everyone in Northern Ireland to identify as British, and it's pretty safe to assume that any members of the Conservative and Unionist Party will identify as British, though they may think of themselves as Irish as well.

    The criticism is bizarre. How many Irish Republicans would you expect to find as members of the Tory party?
    Britannia was the name the Romans originally gave to the whole of the British Isles including Ireland. Nor did the Romans ever refer to just the largest island as Britannia. They transferred the name to the specific province they ruled in the southern half of that largest island. It only came to refer to the largest island alone after the act of Union in 1707.

    Geographically The British Isles are the whole archipelago including Ireland. But of course that derives from the fact that the British (as opposed to the Irish) wrote the rules and named stuff.

    As an aside interestingly, names can of course change and quite quickly. The North Sea was usually known as The German Sea until the middle of the 18th Century. Perhaps in the future The British Isles will indeed be The Irish Isles. It does have a rather more poetic alliteration to it.
    Better than Islands of the North Atlantic, which was apparently one suggestion.

    I'd be happy with British-Irish Isles, though who knows what a Manxer would think of it.

    Wiki tells me UK Law uses the subtly different 'British Islands' to include the bits that include the UK, Channel Islands and Isle of Man. So if someone uses that one they are not including the Republic and are well set if someone gets huffy about the name.

    Edit: Another suggestion was Anglo-Celtic Isles, which I guess might be more accurate than British?
    I would suggest Sodor and Man. I hope @Sunil_Prasannan would agree.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 28,779

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    kle4 said:

    If there was a smidgeon of doubt, Rishi only interested in talking to one section of the NI population.







    British isles? Or is that not correct?
    Britain is one of the islands, Ireland the other (major) one, so you could as well say the Irish Isles as the British Isles.

    But, anyway, the Good Friday Agreement allows everyone in Northern Ireland to identify as British, and it's pretty safe to assume that any members of the Conservative and Unionist Party will identify as British, though they may think of themselves as Irish as well.

    The criticism is bizarre. How many Irish Republicans would you expect to find as members of the Tory party?
    Britannia was the name the Romans originally gave to the whole of the British Isles including Ireland. Nor did the Romans ever refer to just the largest island as Britannia. They transferred the name to the specific province they ruled in the southern half of that largest island. It only came to refer to the largest island alone after the act of Union in 1707.

    Geographically The British Isles are the whole archipelago including Ireland. But of course that derives from the fact that the British (as opposed to the Irish) wrote the rules and named stuff.

    As an aside interestingly, names can of course change and quite quickly. The North Sea was usually known as The German Sea until the middle of the 18th Century. Perhaps in the future The British Isles will indeed be The Irish Isles. It does have a rather more poetic alliteration to it.
    Better than Islands of the North Atlantic, which was apparently one suggestion.

    I'd be happy with British-Irish Isles, though who knows what a Manxer would think of it.

    Wiki tells me UK Law uses the subtly different 'British Islands' to include the bits that include the UK, Channel Islands and Isle of Man. So if someone uses that one they are not including the Republic and are well set if someone gets huffy about the name.

    Edit: Another suggestion was Anglo-Celtic Isles, which I guess might be more accurate than British?
    The advantage of "Islands Of the North Atlantic" is that you can then use the initialism of IONA, which appeals, although may cause some confusion with the Island of Iona when used in speech.

    The Atlantic Archipelago is another alternative that has been proposed, but I tend simply to use "Britain and Ireland".
    Bloody terrible idea. North Atlantic goes all the way to the equator so that's everything from iceland to the canaries and cape verde, and west to bermuda.
    The Atlantic is in general oceanographic terms normally split into three, South Atlantic, Tropical Atlantic and North Atlantic.

    But anyway, I didn't say that IONA was a perfect option.
    Isles of Britain and Ireland is the current term in some circles.
    What crap.

    British Isles DNE UK of Great Britain and NI
    North America DNE USA
    Europe DNE European Union

    Cf also British, American, and possibly too, European.
    I AM talking about the bits of isolated land not including Heligoland, the Canaries, and the Faeroes. Not the UK.
    Me too.
    They’re called the British Isles.
    Not accurate or acceptable. Ireland hasn't been part of Britain, ever. UK, some bits, different times, yes,. but not the same thing.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    In a victory for parental control over schools that many on here are so keen on "The Diary of Anne Frank" is banned in a Texas school district.

    https://www.jpost.com/diaspora/antisemitism/article-714895
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 17,547
    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    kle4 said:

    If there was a smidgeon of doubt, Rishi only interested in talking to one section of the NI population.







    British isles? Or is that not correct?
    Britain is one of the islands, Ireland the other (major) one, so you could as well say the Irish Isles as the British Isles.

    But, anyway, the Good Friday Agreement allows everyone in Northern Ireland to identify as British, and it's pretty safe to assume that any members of the Conservative and Unionist Party will identify as British, though they may think of themselves as Irish as well.

    The criticism is bizarre. How many Irish Republicans would you expect to find as members of the Tory party?
    Britannia was the name the Romans originally gave to the whole of the British Isles including Ireland. Nor did the Romans ever refer to just the largest island as Britannia. They transferred the name to the specific province they ruled in the southern half of that largest island. It only came to refer to the largest island alone after the act of Union in 1707.

    Geographically The British Isles are the whole archipelago including Ireland. But of course that derives from the fact that the British (as opposed to the Irish) wrote the rules and named stuff.

    As an aside interestingly, names can of course change and quite quickly. The North Sea was usually known as The German Sea until the middle of the 18th Century. Perhaps in the future The British Isles will indeed be The Irish Isles. It does have a rather more poetic alliteration to it.
    Better than Islands of the North Atlantic, which was apparently one suggestion.

    I'd be happy with British-Irish Isles, though who knows what a Manxer would think of it.

    Wiki tells me UK Law uses the subtly different 'British Islands' to include the bits that include the UK, Channel Islands and Isle of Man. So if someone uses that one they are not including the Republic and are well set if someone gets huffy about the name.

    Edit: Another suggestion was Anglo-Celtic Isles, which I guess might be more accurate than British?
    The advantage of "Islands Of the North Atlantic" is that you can then use the initialism of IONA, which appeals, although may cause some confusion with the Island of Iona when used in speech.

    The Atlantic Archipelago is another alternative that has been proposed, but I tend simply to use "Britain and Ireland".
    Bloody terrible idea. North Atlantic goes all the way to the equator so that's everything from iceland to the canaries and cape verde, and west to bermuda.
    The Atlantic is in general oceanographic terms normally split into three, South Atlantic, Tropical Atlantic and North Atlantic.

    But anyway, I didn't say that IONA was a perfect option.
    Isles of Britain and Ireland is the current term in some circles.
    What crap.

    British Isles DNE UK of Great Britain and NI
    North America DNE USA
    Europe DNE European Union

    Cf also British, American, and possibly too, European.
    I AM talking about the bits of isolated land not including Heligoland, the Canaries, and the Faeroes. Not the UK.
    Me too.
    They’re called the British Isles.
    Not accurate or acceptable. Ireland hasn't been part of Britain, ever. UK, some bits, different times, yes,. but not the same thing.
    Yes and Canada is not “American” but is part of North America.

    People need to grow up.
    British is both a geographic and political term, and it means different things in those two different contexts.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 28,779

    kle4 said:

    If there was a smidgeon of doubt, Rishi only interested in talking to one section of the NI population.







    British isles? Or is that not correct?
    Britain is one of the islands, Ireland the other (major) one, so you could as well say the Irish Isles as the British Isles.

    But, anyway, the Good Friday Agreement allows everyone in Northern Ireland to identify as British, and it's pretty safe to assume that any members of the Conservative and Unionist Party will identify as British, though they may think of themselves as Irish as well.

    The criticism is bizarre. How many Irish Republicans would you expect to find as members of the Tory party?
    Britannia was the name the Romans originally gave to the whole of the British Isles including Ireland. Nor did the Romans ever refer to just the largest island as Britannia. They transferred the name to the specific province they ruled in the southern half of that largest island. It only came to refer to the largest island alone after the act of Union in 1707.

    Geographically The British Isles are the whole archipelago including Ireland. But of course that derives from the fact that the British (as opposed to the Irish) wrote the rules and named stuff.

    As an aside interestingly, names can of course change and quite quickly. The North Sea was usually known as The German Sea until the middle of the 18th Century. Perhaps in the future The British Isles will indeed be The Irish Isles. It does have a rather more poetic alliteration to it.
    Better than Islands of the North Atlantic, which was apparently one suggestion.

    I'd be happy with British-Irish Isles, though who knows what a Manxer would think of it.

    Wiki tells me UK Law uses the subtly different 'British Islands' to include the bits that include the UK, Channel Islands and Isle of Man. So if someone uses that one they are not including the Republic and are well set if someone gets huffy about the name.

    Edit: Another suggestion was Anglo-Celtic Isles, which I guess might be more accurate than British?
    I would suggest Sodor and Man. I hope @Sunil_Prasannan would agree.
    Lordship of the Isles. (Which also has railway relevance.)
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 3,947
    The Trans Dogger Isles?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 28,779

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    kle4 said:

    If there was a smidgeon of doubt, Rishi only interested in talking to one section of the NI population.







    British isles? Or is that not correct?
    Britain is one of the islands, Ireland the other (major) one, so you could as well say the Irish Isles as the British Isles.

    But, anyway, the Good Friday Agreement allows everyone in Northern Ireland to identify as British, and it's pretty safe to assume that any members of the Conservative and Unionist Party will identify as British, though they may think of themselves as Irish as well.

    The criticism is bizarre. How many Irish Republicans would you expect to find as members of the Tory party?
    Britannia was the name the Romans originally gave to the whole of the British Isles including Ireland. Nor did the Romans ever refer to just the largest island as Britannia. They transferred the name to the specific province they ruled in the southern half of that largest island. It only came to refer to the largest island alone after the act of Union in 1707.

    Geographically The British Isles are the whole archipelago including Ireland. But of course that derives from the fact that the British (as opposed to the Irish) wrote the rules and named stuff.

    As an aside interestingly, names can of course change and quite quickly. The North Sea was usually known as The German Sea until the middle of the 18th Century. Perhaps in the future The British Isles will indeed be The Irish Isles. It does have a rather more poetic alliteration to it.
    Better than Islands of the North Atlantic, which was apparently one suggestion.

    I'd be happy with British-Irish Isles, though who knows what a Manxer would think of it.

    Wiki tells me UK Law uses the subtly different 'British Islands' to include the bits that include the UK, Channel Islands and Isle of Man. So if someone uses that one they are not including the Republic and are well set if someone gets huffy about the name.

    Edit: Another suggestion was Anglo-Celtic Isles, which I guess might be more accurate than British?
    The advantage of "Islands Of the North Atlantic" is that you can then use the initialism of IONA, which appeals, although may cause some confusion with the Island of Iona when used in speech.

    The Atlantic Archipelago is another alternative that has been proposed, but I tend simply to use "Britain and Ireland".
    Bloody terrible idea. North Atlantic goes all the way to the equator so that's everything from iceland to the canaries and cape verde, and west to bermuda.
    The Atlantic is in general oceanographic terms normally split into three, South Atlantic, Tropical Atlantic and North Atlantic.

    But anyway, I didn't say that IONA was a perfect option.
    Isles of Britain and Ireland is the current term in some circles.
    What crap.

    British Isles DNE UK of Great Britain and NI
    North America DNE USA
    Europe DNE European Union

    Cf also British, American, and possibly too, European.
    I AM talking about the bits of isolated land not including Heligoland, the Canaries, and the Faeroes. Not the UK.
    Me too.
    They’re called the British Isles.
    Not accurate or acceptable. Ireland hasn't been part of Britain, ever. UK, some bits, different times, yes,. but not the same thing.
    Yes and Canada is not “American” but is part of North America.

    People need to grow up.
    British is both a geographic and political term, and it means different things in those two different contexts.
    That's precisely the point. You wouldn't call Canada American, or speak of it as part of the American Continent - only the North American one.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 56,563
    Sean_F said:

    ydoethur said:

    The Russian retreat continues...

    The Kyiv Independent
    @KyivIndependent
    ⚡️Russia pulls military aircraft out of Crimean airbases after recent explosions.

    The Ukrainian Defense Ministry's Main Intelligence Directorate reported that no less than 24 planes and 14 helicopters had been transferred out of airfields in Crimea.


    https://mobile.twitter.com/KyivIndependent/status/1559963717860737024

    Putin's invasion is a military disaster that will be studied for decades.

    It must be the most spectacularly counterproductive invasion of a country since the First Coalition issued the Brunswick Manifesto demanding the safety of Louis XVI and then invaded from Koblenz, uniting the French against them and leading to the extermination of the royal family.
    I've got that beat. Manius Aquilius, Governor of Asia Province, thought it an absolutely splendid idea to attack Mithridates of Pontus, despite being hugely outnumbered. He simply assumed that one Roman soldier was worth ten effeminate orientals. It ended with him having molten gold poured down his throat, in front of a cheering crowd of Ephesians.

    Then there were the Tartars, who thought it fine sport to kidnap and rape Borte, the wife of Genghis Khan. That went about as well for them as you'd expect.
    Both of those are rather spectacular, but I did say 'since.' Your examples predate 1792.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 11,183

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    kle4 said:

    If there was a smidgeon of doubt, Rishi only interested in talking to one section of the NI population.







    British isles? Or is that not correct?
    Britain is one of the islands, Ireland the other (major) one, so you could as well say the Irish Isles as the British Isles.

    But, anyway, the Good Friday Agreement allows everyone in Northern Ireland to identify as British, and it's pretty safe to assume that any members of the Conservative and Unionist Party will identify as British, though they may think of themselves as Irish as well.

    The criticism is bizarre. How many Irish Republicans would you expect to find as members of the Tory party?
    Britannia was the name the Romans originally gave to the whole of the British Isles including Ireland. Nor did the Romans ever refer to just the largest island as Britannia. They transferred the name to the specific province they ruled in the southern half of that largest island. It only came to refer to the largest island alone after the act of Union in 1707.

    Geographically The British Isles are the whole archipelago including Ireland. But of course that derives from the fact that the British (as opposed to the Irish) wrote the rules and named stuff.

    As an aside interestingly, names can of course change and quite quickly. The North Sea was usually known as The German Sea until the middle of the 18th Century. Perhaps in the future The British Isles will indeed be The Irish Isles. It does have a rather more poetic alliteration to it.
    Better than Islands of the North Atlantic, which was apparently one suggestion.

    I'd be happy with British-Irish Isles, though who knows what a Manxer would think of it.

    Wiki tells me UK Law uses the subtly different 'British Islands' to include the bits that include the UK, Channel Islands and Isle of Man. So if someone uses that one they are not including the Republic and are well set if someone gets huffy about the name.

    Edit: Another suggestion was Anglo-Celtic Isles, which I guess might be more accurate than British?
    The advantage of "Islands Of the North Atlantic" is that you can then use the initialism of IONA, which appeals, although may cause some confusion with the Island of Iona when used in speech.

    The Atlantic Archipelago is another alternative that has been proposed, but I tend simply to use "Britain and Ireland".
    Bloody terrible idea. North Atlantic goes all the way to the equator so that's everything from iceland to the canaries and cape verde, and west to bermuda.
    The Atlantic is in general oceanographic terms normally split into three, South Atlantic, Tropical Atlantic and North Atlantic.

    But anyway, I didn't say that IONA was a perfect option.
    Isles of Britain and Ireland is the current term in some circles.
    What crap.

    British Isles DNE UK of Great Britain and NI
    North America DNE USA
    Europe DNE European Union

    Cf also British, American, and possibly too, European.
    I AM talking about the bits of isolated land not including Heligoland, the Canaries, and the Faeroes. Not the UK.
    Me too.
    They’re called the British Isles.
    You don't need much imagination to realise that would irk the Irish.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 28,779
    ydoethur said:

    Sean_F said:

    ydoethur said:

    The Russian retreat continues...

    The Kyiv Independent
    @KyivIndependent
    ⚡️Russia pulls military aircraft out of Crimean airbases after recent explosions.

    The Ukrainian Defense Ministry's Main Intelligence Directorate reported that no less than 24 planes and 14 helicopters had been transferred out of airfields in Crimea.


    https://mobile.twitter.com/KyivIndependent/status/1559963717860737024

    Putin's invasion is a military disaster that will be studied for decades.

    It must be the most spectacularly counterproductive invasion of a country since the First Coalition issued the Brunswick Manifesto demanding the safety of Louis XVI and then invaded from Koblenz, uniting the French against them and leading to the extermination of the royal family.
    I've got that beat. Manius Aquilius, Governor of Asia Province, thought it an absolutely splendid idea to attack Mithridates of Pontus, despite being hugely outnumbered. He simply assumed that one Roman soldier was worth ten effeminate orientals. It ended with him having molten gold poured down his throat, in front of a cheering crowd of Ephesians.

    Then there were the Tartars, who thought it fine sport to kidnap and rape Borte, the wife of Genghis Khan. That went about as well for them as you'd expect.
    Both of those are rather spectacular, but I did say 'since.' Your examples predate 1792.
    Suez 1956?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 31,942
    geoffw said:

    Ukranian strategy is to create chaos within Russian forces as opposed to the Russian strategy of flattening everything in its path with a giant fist.

    (Gordon's clunking fist as Russian military doctine - seems quite appropriate)

    https://nitter.net/PhillipsPOBrien/status/1559862531090440193?ref_src=twsrc^google|twcamp^serp|twgr^tweet

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/aug/16/creating-chaos-zelenskiys-adviser-outlines-ukraines-military-strategy

    I’m not sure it is about creating chaos, so much as making up for having less by using intelligence to strike the most valuable targets with a heavy seasoning of improvisation.

    One interesting thing is the target assigning system they have created. Western militaries have talked about such a unified system, that would coordinate strikes by any weapons that could reach the targets etc… It was talked of before Desert Storm. But doctrine and politics has prevented it being created, until now.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 82,491
    ydoethur said:

    The Russian retreat continues...

    The Kyiv Independent
    @KyivIndependent
    ⚡️Russia pulls military aircraft out of Crimean airbases after recent explosions.

    The Ukrainian Defense Ministry's Main Intelligence Directorate reported that no less than 24 planes and 14 helicopters had been transferred out of airfields in Crimea.


    https://mobile.twitter.com/KyivIndependent/status/1559963717860737024

    Putin's invasion is a military disaster that will be studied for decades.

    It must be the most spectacularly counterproductive invasion of a country since the First Coalition issued the Brunswick Manifesto demanding the safety of Louis XVI and then invaded from Koblenz, uniting the French against them and leading to the extermination of the royal family.
    We tend to remember the successful invasions more than the much more numerous unsuccessful ones (the Spanish Armada being an exception). Turns out it is quite hard.

    The BBC had the latest British military assessment being a long grind for some time, but that's far from the worst outcome to put it mildly.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 17,547

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    kle4 said:

    If there was a smidgeon of doubt, Rishi only interested in talking to one section of the NI population.







    British isles? Or is that not correct?
    Britain is one of the islands, Ireland the other (major) one, so you could as well say the Irish Isles as the British Isles.

    But, anyway, the Good Friday Agreement allows everyone in Northern Ireland to identify as British, and it's pretty safe to assume that any members of the Conservative and Unionist Party will identify as British, though they may think of themselves as Irish as well.

    The criticism is bizarre. How many Irish Republicans would you expect to find as members of the Tory party?
    Britannia was the name the Romans originally gave to the whole of the British Isles including Ireland. Nor did the Romans ever refer to just the largest island as Britannia. They transferred the name to the specific province they ruled in the southern half of that largest island. It only came to refer to the largest island alone after the act of Union in 1707.

    Geographically The British Isles are the whole archipelago including Ireland. But of course that derives from the fact that the British (as opposed to the Irish) wrote the rules and named stuff.

    As an aside interestingly, names can of course change and quite quickly. The North Sea was usually known as The German Sea until the middle of the 18th Century. Perhaps in the future The British Isles will indeed be The Irish Isles. It does have a rather more poetic alliteration to it.
    Better than Islands of the North Atlantic, which was apparently one suggestion.

    I'd be happy with British-Irish Isles, though who knows what a Manxer would think of it.

    Wiki tells me UK Law uses the subtly different 'British Islands' to include the bits that include the UK, Channel Islands and Isle of Man. So if someone uses that one they are not including the Republic and are well set if someone gets huffy about the name.

    Edit: Another suggestion was Anglo-Celtic Isles, which I guess might be more accurate than British?
    The advantage of "Islands Of the North Atlantic" is that you can then use the initialism of IONA, which appeals, although may cause some confusion with the Island of Iona when used in speech.

    The Atlantic Archipelago is another alternative that has been proposed, but I tend simply to use "Britain and Ireland".
    Bloody terrible idea. North Atlantic goes all the way to the equator so that's everything from iceland to the canaries and cape verde, and west to bermuda.
    The Atlantic is in general oceanographic terms normally split into three, South Atlantic, Tropical Atlantic and North Atlantic.

    But anyway, I didn't say that IONA was a perfect option.
    Isles of Britain and Ireland is the current term in some circles.
    What crap.

    British Isles DNE UK of Great Britain and NI
    North America DNE USA
    Europe DNE European Union

    Cf also British, American, and possibly too, European.
    I AM talking about the bits of isolated land not including Heligoland, the Canaries, and the Faeroes. Not the UK.
    Me too.
    They’re called the British Isles.
    You don't need much imagination to realise that would irk the Irish.
    I don’t care.
    They can call it what they like.
    They’ve been the British Isles, or some variation of that term, since Roman Times.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 56,563
    edited August 2022
    Carnyx said:

    ydoethur said:

    Sean_F said:

    ydoethur said:

    The Russian retreat continues...

    The Kyiv Independent
    @KyivIndependent
    ⚡️Russia pulls military aircraft out of Crimean airbases after recent explosions.

    The Ukrainian Defense Ministry's Main Intelligence Directorate reported that no less than 24 planes and 14 helicopters had been transferred out of airfields in Crimea.


    https://mobile.twitter.com/KyivIndependent/status/1559963717860737024

    Putin's invasion is a military disaster that will be studied for decades.

    It must be the most spectacularly counterproductive invasion of a country since the First Coalition issued the Brunswick Manifesto demanding the safety of Louis XVI and then invaded from Koblenz, uniting the French against them and leading to the extermination of the royal family.
    I've got that beat. Manius Aquilius, Governor of Asia Province, thought it an absolutely splendid idea to attack Mithridates of Pontus, despite being hugely outnumbered. He simply assumed that one Roman soldier was worth ten effeminate orientals. It ended with him having molten gold poured down his throat, in front of a cheering crowd of Ephesians.

    Then there were the Tartars, who thought it fine sport to kidnap and rape Borte, the wife of Genghis Khan. That went about as well for them as you'd expect.
    Both of those are rather spectacular, but I did say 'since.' Your examples predate 1792.
    Suez 1956?
    That was embarrassing but didn't end by destroying the British and French armies. Indeed, a case could be made that the operation was a military success.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 48,985
    Carnyx said:

    ydoethur said:

    Sean_F said:

    ydoethur said:

    The Russian retreat continues...

    The Kyiv Independent
    @KyivIndependent
    ⚡️Russia pulls military aircraft out of Crimean airbases after recent explosions.

    The Ukrainian Defense Ministry's Main Intelligence Directorate reported that no less than 24 planes and 14 helicopters had been transferred out of airfields in Crimea.


    https://mobile.twitter.com/KyivIndependent/status/1559963717860737024

    Putin's invasion is a military disaster that will be studied for decades.

    It must be the most spectacularly counterproductive invasion of a country since the First Coalition issued the Brunswick Manifesto demanding the safety of Louis XVI and then invaded from Koblenz, uniting the French against them and leading to the extermination of the royal family.
    I've got that beat. Manius Aquilius, Governor of Asia Province, thought it an absolutely splendid idea to attack Mithridates of Pontus, despite being hugely outnumbered. He simply assumed that one Roman soldier was worth ten effeminate orientals. It ended with him having molten gold poured down his throat, in front of a cheering crowd of Ephesians.

    Then there were the Tartars, who thought it fine sport to kidnap and rape Borte, the wife of Genghis Khan. That went about as well for them as you'd expect.
    Both of those are rather spectacular, but I did say 'since.' Your examples predate 1792.
    Suez 1956?
    Not sure Eden met quite such a sticky end.

    Think he took leave at Goldeneye, which isn't exactly the worst punishment in the world.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 82,491
    edited August 2022
    Alistair said:

    In a victory for parental control over schools that many on here are so keen on "The Diary of Anne Frank" is banned in a Texas school district.

    https://www.jpost.com/diaspora/antisemitism/article-714895


    A school district in suburban Fort Worth, Texas, has ordered its librarians to remove an illustrated adaptation of “The Diary of Anne Frank” from their shelves and digital libraries, along with the Bible and dozens of other books that were challenged by parents last year


    Should make allies of some different groups to get outraged by this. The people behind it seem on the level

    describing parents who would attend school board meetings alleging “conspiracies to take over our public schools,” wearing shirts reading “Alex Jones Was Right.”
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 28,779

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    kle4 said:

    If there was a smidgeon of doubt, Rishi only interested in talking to one section of the NI population.







    British isles? Or is that not correct?
    Britain is one of the islands, Ireland the other (major) one, so you could as well say the Irish Isles as the British Isles.

    But, anyway, the Good Friday Agreement allows everyone in Northern Ireland to identify as British, and it's pretty safe to assume that any members of the Conservative and Unionist Party will identify as British, though they may think of themselves as Irish as well.

    The criticism is bizarre. How many Irish Republicans would you expect to find as members of the Tory party?
    Britannia was the name the Romans originally gave to the whole of the British Isles including Ireland. Nor did the Romans ever refer to just the largest island as Britannia. They transferred the name to the specific province they ruled in the southern half of that largest island. It only came to refer to the largest island alone after the act of Union in 1707.

    Geographically The British Isles are the whole archipelago including Ireland. But of course that derives from the fact that the British (as opposed to the Irish) wrote the rules and named stuff.

    As an aside interestingly, names can of course change and quite quickly. The North Sea was usually known as The German Sea until the middle of the 18th Century. Perhaps in the future The British Isles will indeed be The Irish Isles. It does have a rather more poetic alliteration to it.
    Better than Islands of the North Atlantic, which was apparently one suggestion.

    I'd be happy with British-Irish Isles, though who knows what a Manxer would think of it.

    Wiki tells me UK Law uses the subtly different 'British Islands' to include the bits that include the UK, Channel Islands and Isle of Man. So if someone uses that one they are not including the Republic and are well set if someone gets huffy about the name.

    Edit: Another suggestion was Anglo-Celtic Isles, which I guess might be more accurate than British?
    The advantage of "Islands Of the North Atlantic" is that you can then use the initialism of IONA, which appeals, although may cause some confusion with the Island of Iona when used in speech.

    The Atlantic Archipelago is another alternative that has been proposed, but I tend simply to use "Britain and Ireland".
    Bloody terrible idea. North Atlantic goes all the way to the equator so that's everything from iceland to the canaries and cape verde, and west to bermuda.
    The Atlantic is in general oceanographic terms normally split into three, South Atlantic, Tropical Atlantic and North Atlantic.

    But anyway, I didn't say that IONA was a perfect option.
    Isles of Britain and Ireland is the current term in some circles.
    What crap.

    British Isles DNE UK of Great Britain and NI
    North America DNE USA
    Europe DNE European Union

    Cf also British, American, and possibly too, European.
    I AM talking about the bits of isolated land not including Heligoland, the Canaries, and the Faeroes. Not the UK.
    Me too.
    They’re called the British Isles.
    Not accurate or acceptable. Ireland hasn't been part of Britain, ever. UK, some bits, different times, yes,. but not the same thing.
    I am hoping to visit Shetland next year. If, so, I plan to get one of these.
    Oh, it's well worth it. One less obvious idea - consider hiring the local ferryman to go to Mousa - broch, and seals in loch on east side. He comes back to pick you up.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 25,230
    Alistair said:

    In a victory for parental control over schools that many on here are so keen on "The Diary of Anne Frank" is banned in a Texas school district.

    https://www.jpost.com/diaspora/antisemitism/article-714895

    LOL.
    They've ended up banning the Bible.
    Banning any book challenged for whatever reason was the logical endpoint.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 28,779
    ydoethur said:

    Carnyx said:

    ydoethur said:

    Sean_F said:

    ydoethur said:

    The Russian retreat continues...

    The Kyiv Independent
    @KyivIndependent
    ⚡️Russia pulls military aircraft out of Crimean airbases after recent explosions.

    The Ukrainian Defense Ministry's Main Intelligence Directorate reported that no less than 24 planes and 14 helicopters had been transferred out of airfields in Crimea.


    https://mobile.twitter.com/KyivIndependent/status/1559963717860737024

    Putin's invasion is a military disaster that will be studied for decades.

    It must be the most spectacularly counterproductive invasion of a country since the First Coalition issued the Brunswick Manifesto demanding the safety of Louis XVI and then invaded from Koblenz, uniting the French against them and leading to the extermination of the royal family.
    I've got that beat. Manius Aquilius, Governor of Asia Province, thought it an absolutely splendid idea to attack Mithridates of Pontus, despite being hugely outnumbered. He simply assumed that one Roman soldier was worth ten effeminate orientals. It ended with him having molten gold poured down his throat, in front of a cheering crowd of Ephesians.

    Then there were the Tartars, who thought it fine sport to kidnap and rape Borte, the wife of Genghis Khan. That went about as well for them as you'd expect.
    Both of those are rather spectacular, but I did say 'since.' Your examples predate 1792.
    Suez 1956?
    That was embarrassing but didn't end by destroying the British and French armies. Indeed, a case could be made that the operation was a military success.
    Fair enough! I did have a quewstion mark.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 56,563

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    kle4 said:

    If there was a smidgeon of doubt, Rishi only interested in talking to one section of the NI population.







    British isles? Or is that not correct?
    Britain is one of the islands, Ireland the other (major) one, so you could as well say the Irish Isles as the British Isles.

    But, anyway, the Good Friday Agreement allows everyone in Northern Ireland to identify as British, and it's pretty safe to assume that any members of the Conservative and Unionist Party will identify as British, though they may think of themselves as Irish as well.

    The criticism is bizarre. How many Irish Republicans would you expect to find as members of the Tory party?
    Britannia was the name the Romans originally gave to the whole of the British Isles including Ireland. Nor did the Romans ever refer to just the largest island as Britannia. They transferred the name to the specific province they ruled in the southern half of that largest island. It only came to refer to the largest island alone after the act of Union in 1707.

    Geographically The British Isles are the whole archipelago including Ireland. But of course that derives from the fact that the British (as opposed to the Irish) wrote the rules and named stuff.

    As an aside interestingly, names can of course change and quite quickly. The North Sea was usually known as The German Sea until the middle of the 18th Century. Perhaps in the future The British Isles will indeed be The Irish Isles. It does have a rather more poetic alliteration to it.
    Better than Islands of the North Atlantic, which was apparently one suggestion.

    I'd be happy with British-Irish Isles, though who knows what a Manxer would think of it.

    Wiki tells me UK Law uses the subtly different 'British Islands' to include the bits that include the UK, Channel Islands and Isle of Man. So if someone uses that one they are not including the Republic and are well set if someone gets huffy about the name.

    Edit: Another suggestion was Anglo-Celtic Isles, which I guess might be more accurate than British?
    The advantage of "Islands Of the North Atlantic" is that you can then use the initialism of IONA, which appeals, although may cause some confusion with the Island of Iona when used in speech.

    The Atlantic Archipelago is another alternative that has been proposed, but I tend simply to use "Britain and Ireland".
    Bloody terrible idea. North Atlantic goes all the way to the equator so that's everything from iceland to the canaries and cape verde, and west to bermuda.
    The Atlantic is in general oceanographic terms normally split into three, South Atlantic, Tropical Atlantic and North Atlantic.

    But anyway, I didn't say that IONA was a perfect option.
    Isles of Britain and Ireland is the current term in some circles.
    What crap.

    British Isles DNE UK of Great Britain and NI
    North America DNE USA
    Europe DNE European Union

    Cf also British, American, and possibly too, European.
    I AM talking about the bits of isolated land not including Heligoland, the Canaries, and the Faeroes. Not the UK.
    Me too.
    They’re called the British Isles.
    Not accurate or acceptable. Ireland hasn't been part of Britain, ever. UK, some bits, different times, yes,. but not the same thing.
    I am hoping to visit Shetland next year. If, so, I plan to get one of these.
    The scale's a bit off, isn't it? Why does it show the islands as so small compared to Britain?
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 11,183

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    kle4 said:

    If there was a smidgeon of doubt, Rishi only interested in talking to one section of the NI population.







    British isles? Or is that not correct?
    Britain is one of the islands, Ireland the other (major) one, so you could as well say the Irish Isles as the British Isles.

    But, anyway, the Good Friday Agreement allows everyone in Northern Ireland to identify as British, and it's pretty safe to assume that any members of the Conservative and Unionist Party will identify as British, though they may think of themselves as Irish as well.

    The criticism is bizarre. How many Irish Republicans would you expect to find as members of the Tory party?
    Britannia was the name the Romans originally gave to the whole of the British Isles including Ireland. Nor did the Romans ever refer to just the largest island as Britannia. They transferred the name to the specific province they ruled in the southern half of that largest island. It only came to refer to the largest island alone after the act of Union in 1707.

    Geographically The British Isles are the whole archipelago including Ireland. But of course that derives from the fact that the British (as opposed to the Irish) wrote the rules and named stuff.

    As an aside interestingly, names can of course change and quite quickly. The North Sea was usually known as The German Sea until the middle of the 18th Century. Perhaps in the future The British Isles will indeed be The Irish Isles. It does have a rather more poetic alliteration to it.
    Better than Islands of the North Atlantic, which was apparently one suggestion.

    I'd be happy with British-Irish Isles, though who knows what a Manxer would think of it.

    Wiki tells me UK Law uses the subtly different 'British Islands' to include the bits that include the UK, Channel Islands and Isle of Man. So if someone uses that one they are not including the Republic and are well set if someone gets huffy about the name.

    Edit: Another suggestion was Anglo-Celtic Isles, which I guess might be more accurate than British?
    The advantage of "Islands Of the North Atlantic" is that you can then use the initialism of IONA, which appeals, although may cause some confusion with the Island of Iona when used in speech.

    The Atlantic Archipelago is another alternative that has been proposed, but I tend simply to use "Britain and Ireland".
    Bloody terrible idea. North Atlantic goes all the way to the equator so that's everything from iceland to the canaries and cape verde, and west to bermuda.
    The Atlantic is in general oceanographic terms normally split into three, South Atlantic, Tropical Atlantic and North Atlantic.

    But anyway, I didn't say that IONA was a perfect option.
    Isles of Britain and Ireland is the current term in some circles.
    What crap.

    British Isles DNE UK of Great Britain and NI
    North America DNE USA
    Europe DNE European Union

    Cf also British, American, and possibly too, European.
    I AM talking about the bits of isolated land not including Heligoland, the Canaries, and the Faeroes. Not the UK.
    Me too.
    They’re called the British Isles.
    You don't need much imagination to realise that would irk the Irish.
    I don’t care.
    They can call it what they like.
    They’ve been the British Isles, or some variation of that term, since Roman Times.
    There's not much point in using a name for a place that pisses off a large number of people who live in that place, and that they will only use with scare quotes at best.

    Language changes and evolves and is contested, often for political reasons. The British Isles was used because of British dominance of the islands. Now that dominance is ended, so the name will go.
  • Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 1,055
    I was curious to see if Niobrara County in Wyoming, which voted so heavily against Cheney was the kind of place I thought it was. (Neither the Wikipedia article nor the county web site were especially informative.)

    And then I found this US Department of Agriculture 2017 report:
    https://www.nass.usda.gov/Publications/AgCensus/2017/Online_Resources/County_Profiles/Wyoming/cp56027.pdf
    The county then had almost 1.3 million acres of farm land, almost 60,000 cattle and calves, and about 2500 people. The average size of a farm there was more than 5,000 acres. 94 percent of the farms were family farms. About 70 percent of the families had Internet access. That's more important than it might seem; many of the farmers would want up-to-the-minute data on prices of beef, might even be hedging from time to time in the options markets.

    (From the Wikipedia article, I learned that the population of the county had shrunk from about 6400 in 1920 to about 2500, now. The 1920's and the 1930's were rough on the Great Plains.)
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 28,779

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    kle4 said:

    If there was a smidgeon of doubt, Rishi only interested in talking to one section of the NI population.







    British isles? Or is that not correct?
    Britain is one of the islands, Ireland the other (major) one, so you could as well say the Irish Isles as the British Isles.

    But, anyway, the Good Friday Agreement allows everyone in Northern Ireland to identify as British, and it's pretty safe to assume that any members of the Conservative and Unionist Party will identify as British, though they may think of themselves as Irish as well.

    The criticism is bizarre. How many Irish Republicans would you expect to find as members of the Tory party?
    Britannia was the name the Romans originally gave to the whole of the British Isles including Ireland. Nor did the Romans ever refer to just the largest island as Britannia. They transferred the name to the specific province they ruled in the southern half of that largest island. It only came to refer to the largest island alone after the act of Union in 1707.

    Geographically The British Isles are the whole archipelago including Ireland. But of course that derives from the fact that the British (as opposed to the Irish) wrote the rules and named stuff.

    As an aside interestingly, names can of course change and quite quickly. The North Sea was usually known as The German Sea until the middle of the 18th Century. Perhaps in the future The British Isles will indeed be The Irish Isles. It does have a rather more poetic alliteration to it.
    Better than Islands of the North Atlantic, which was apparently one suggestion.

    I'd be happy with British-Irish Isles, though who knows what a Manxer would think of it.

    Wiki tells me UK Law uses the subtly different 'British Islands' to include the bits that include the UK, Channel Islands and Isle of Man. So if someone uses that one they are not including the Republic and are well set if someone gets huffy about the name.

    Edit: Another suggestion was Anglo-Celtic Isles, which I guess might be more accurate than British?
    The advantage of "Islands Of the North Atlantic" is that you can then use the initialism of IONA, which appeals, although may cause some confusion with the Island of Iona when used in speech.

    The Atlantic Archipelago is another alternative that has been proposed, but I tend simply to use "Britain and Ireland".
    Bloody terrible idea. North Atlantic goes all the way to the equator so that's everything from iceland to the canaries and cape verde, and west to bermuda.
    The Atlantic is in general oceanographic terms normally split into three, South Atlantic, Tropical Atlantic and North Atlantic.

    But anyway, I didn't say that IONA was a perfect option.
    Isles of Britain and Ireland is the current term in some circles.
    What crap.

    British Isles DNE UK of Great Britain and NI
    North America DNE USA
    Europe DNE European Union

    Cf also British, American, and possibly too, European.
    I AM talking about the bits of isolated land not including Heligoland, the Canaries, and the Faeroes. Not the UK.
    Me too.
    They’re called the British Isles.
    You don't need much imagination to realise that would irk the Irish.
    I don’t care.
    They can call it what they like.
    They’ve been the British Isles, or some variation of that term, since Roman Times.
    Have they? Thought it was Hibernia Britanniaque or similar.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 82,491
    dixiedean said:

    Alistair said:

    In a victory for parental control over schools that many on here are so keen on "The Diary of Anne Frank" is banned in a Texas school district.

    https://www.jpost.com/diaspora/antisemitism/article-714895

    LOL.
    They've ended up banning the Bible.
    Banning any book challenged for whatever reason was the logical endpoint.
    Seems like it might be a bit more coordinated than it first appears though - removing all which have been challenged pending a rewriting of the guidance on how to review the challenges, so presumably some might be returned in due course.
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 2,356
    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    kle4 said:

    If there was a smidgeon of doubt, Rishi only interested in talking to one section of the NI population.







    British isles? Or is that not correct?
    Britain is one of the islands, Ireland the other (major) one, so you could as well say the Irish Isles as the British Isles.

    But, anyway, the Good Friday Agreement allows everyone in Northern Ireland to identify as British, and it's pretty safe to assume that any members of the Conservative and Unionist Party will identify as British, though they may think of themselves as Irish as well.

    The criticism is bizarre. How many Irish Republicans would you expect to find as members of the Tory party?
    Britannia was the name the Romans originally gave to the whole of the British Isles including Ireland. Nor did the Romans ever refer to just the largest island as Britannia. They transferred the name to the specific province they ruled in the southern half of that largest island. It only came to refer to the largest island alone after the act of Union in 1707.

    Geographically The British Isles are the whole archipelago including Ireland. But of course that derives from the fact that the British (as opposed to the Irish) wrote the rules and named stuff.

    As an aside interestingly, names can of course change and quite quickly. The North Sea was usually known as The German Sea until the middle of the 18th Century. Perhaps in the future The British Isles will indeed be The Irish Isles. It does have a rather more poetic alliteration to it.
    Better than Islands of the North Atlantic, which was apparently one suggestion.

    I'd be happy with British-Irish Isles, though who knows what a Manxer would think of it.

    Wiki tells me UK Law uses the subtly different 'British Islands' to include the bits that include the UK, Channel Islands and Isle of Man. So if someone uses that one they are not including the Republic and are well set if someone gets huffy about the name.

    Edit: Another suggestion was Anglo-Celtic Isles, which I guess might be more accurate than British?
    The advantage of "Islands Of the North Atlantic" is that you can then use the initialism of IONA, which appeals, although may cause some confusion with the Island of Iona when used in speech.

    The Atlantic Archipelago is another alternative that has been proposed, but I tend simply to use "Britain and Ireland".
    Bloody terrible idea. North Atlantic goes all the way to the equator so that's everything from iceland to the canaries and cape verde, and west to bermuda.
    The Atlantic is in general oceanographic terms normally split into three, South Atlantic, Tropical Atlantic and North Atlantic.

    But anyway, I didn't say that IONA was a perfect option.
    Isles of Britain and Ireland is the current term in some circles.
    What crap.

    British Isles DNE UK of Great Britain and NI
    North America DNE USA
    Europe DNE European Union

    Cf also British, American, and possibly too, European.
    I AM talking about the bits of isolated land not including Heligoland, the Canaries, and the Faeroes. Not the UK.
    Me too.
    They’re called the British Isles.
    Not accurate or acceptable. Ireland hasn't been part of Britain, ever. UK, some bits, different times, yes,. but not the same thing.
    I am hoping to visit Shetland next year. If, so, I plan to get one of these.
    Oh, it's well worth it. One less obvious idea - consider hiring the local ferryman to go to Mousa - broch, and seals in loch on east side. He comes back to pick you up.
    We hope to do that. I hope bird flu is over, as Mousa is currently closed to visitors to protect the birdlife.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 17,547

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    kle4 said:

    If there was a smidgeon of doubt, Rishi only interested in talking to one section of the NI population.







    British isles? Or is that not correct?
    Britain is one of the islands, Ireland the other (major) one, so you could as well say the Irish Isles as the British Isles.

    But, anyway, the Good Friday Agreement allows everyone in Northern Ireland to identify as British, and it's pretty safe to assume that any members of the Conservative and Unionist Party will identify as British, though they may think of themselves as Irish as well.

    The criticism is bizarre. How many Irish Republicans would you expect to find as members of the Tory party?
    Britannia was the name the Romans originally gave to the whole of the British Isles including Ireland. Nor did the Romans ever refer to just the largest island as Britannia. They transferred the name to the specific province they ruled in the southern half of that largest island. It only came to refer to the largest island alone after the act of Union in 1707.

    Geographically The British Isles are the whole archipelago including Ireland. But of course that derives from the fact that the British (as opposed to the Irish) wrote the rules and named stuff.

    As an aside interestingly, names can of course change and quite quickly. The North Sea was usually known as The German Sea until the middle of the 18th Century. Perhaps in the future The British Isles will indeed be The Irish Isles. It does have a rather more poetic alliteration to it.
    Better than Islands of the North Atlantic, which was apparently one suggestion.

    I'd be happy with British-Irish Isles, though who knows what a Manxer would think of it.

    Wiki tells me UK Law uses the subtly different 'British Islands' to include the bits that include the UK, Channel Islands and Isle of Man. So if someone uses that one they are not including the Republic and are well set if someone gets huffy about the name.

    Edit: Another suggestion was Anglo-Celtic Isles, which I guess might be more accurate than British?
    The advantage of "Islands Of the North Atlantic" is that you can then use the initialism of IONA, which appeals, although may cause some confusion with the Island of Iona when used in speech.

    The Atlantic Archipelago is another alternative that has been proposed, but I tend simply to use "Britain and Ireland".
    Bloody terrible idea. North Atlantic goes all the way to the equator so that's everything from iceland to the canaries and cape verde, and west to bermuda.
    The Atlantic is in general oceanographic terms normally split into three, South Atlantic, Tropical Atlantic and North Atlantic.

    But anyway, I didn't say that IONA was a perfect option.
    Isles of Britain and Ireland is the current term in some circles.
    What crap.

    British Isles DNE UK of Great Britain and NI
    North America DNE USA
    Europe DNE European Union

    Cf also British, American, and possibly too, European.
    I AM talking about the bits of isolated land not including Heligoland, the Canaries, and the Faeroes. Not the UK.
    Me too.
    They’re called the British Isles.
    You don't need much imagination to realise that would irk the Irish.
    I don’t care.
    They can call it what they like.
    They’ve been the British Isles, or some variation of that term, since Roman Times.
    There's not much point in using a name for a place that pisses off a large number of people who live in that place, and that they will only use with scare quotes at best.

    Language changes and evolves and is contested, often for political reasons. The British Isles was used because of British dominance of the islands. Now that dominance is ended, so the name will go.
    Actually from a numerical perspective, the number of Irish is quite small.

    The geographic term British Isles seems to go back to Roman times, so your point about British dominance may not be correct.

    They are still the British Isles on Wikipedia. The alternatives are weird euphemisms.
  • Alistair said:

    In a victory for parental control over schools that many on here are so keen on "The Diary of Anne Frank" is banned in a Texas school district.

    https://www.jpost.com/diaspora/antisemitism/article-714895

    Another version of the question of democracy.

    It's possible that the overall will of parents in Keller, Texas is that the Diary of Anne Frank shouldn't be available in schools. It seems incredibly unlikely, but it's possible. It's more likely that a smallish number of really determined activists have pushed this through.

    Same with some of the proposed abortion bans. They don't seem to reflect the will of people in the places where they are being proposed, so much as the really deeply held views of a smaller slice of activists. But unless voters are prepared to flip their votes to oppose this, that doesn't matter.

    Maybe this is the least bad system overall. But it is a problem.
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 2,356
    ydoethur said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    kle4 said:

    If there was a smidgeon of doubt, Rishi only interested in talking to one section of the NI population.







    British isles? Or is that not correct?
    Britain is one of the islands, Ireland the other (major) one, so you could as well say the Irish Isles as the British Isles.

    But, anyway, the Good Friday Agreement allows everyone in Northern Ireland to identify as British, and it's pretty safe to assume that any members of the Conservative and Unionist Party will identify as British, though they may think of themselves as Irish as well.

    The criticism is bizarre. How many Irish Republicans would you expect to find as members of the Tory party?
    Britannia was the name the Romans originally gave to the whole of the British Isles including Ireland. Nor did the Romans ever refer to just the largest island as Britannia. They transferred the name to the specific province they ruled in the southern half of that largest island. It only came to refer to the largest island alone after the act of Union in 1707.

    Geographically The British Isles are the whole archipelago including Ireland. But of course that derives from the fact that the British (as opposed to the Irish) wrote the rules and named stuff.

    As an aside interestingly, names can of course change and quite quickly. The North Sea was usually known as The German Sea until the middle of the 18th Century. Perhaps in the future The British Isles will indeed be The Irish Isles. It does have a rather more poetic alliteration to it.
    Better than Islands of the North Atlantic, which was apparently one suggestion.

    I'd be happy with British-Irish Isles, though who knows what a Manxer would think of it.

    Wiki tells me UK Law uses the subtly different 'British Islands' to include the bits that include the UK, Channel Islands and Isle of Man. So if someone uses that one they are not including the Republic and are well set if someone gets huffy about the name.

    Edit: Another suggestion was Anglo-Celtic Isles, which I guess might be more accurate than British?
    The advantage of "Islands Of the North Atlantic" is that you can then use the initialism of IONA, which appeals, although may cause some confusion with the Island of Iona when used in speech.

    The Atlantic Archipelago is another alternative that has been proposed, but I tend simply to use "Britain and Ireland".
    Bloody terrible idea. North Atlantic goes all the way to the equator so that's everything from iceland to the canaries and cape verde, and west to bermuda.
    The Atlantic is in general oceanographic terms normally split into three, South Atlantic, Tropical Atlantic and North Atlantic.

    But anyway, I didn't say that IONA was a perfect option.
    Isles of Britain and Ireland is the current term in some circles.
    What crap.

    British Isles DNE UK of Great Britain and NI
    North America DNE USA
    Europe DNE European Union

    Cf also British, American, and possibly too, European.
    I AM talking about the bits of isolated land not including Heligoland, the Canaries, and the Faeroes. Not the UK.
    Me too.
    They’re called the British Isles.
    Not accurate or acceptable. Ireland hasn't been part of Britain, ever. UK, some bits, different times, yes,. but not the same thing.
    I am hoping to visit Shetland next year. If, so, I plan to get one of these.
    The scale's a bit off, isn't it? Why does it show the islands as so small compared to Britain?
    To fit on the front of a t-shirt.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 28,779

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    kle4 said:

    If there was a smidgeon of doubt, Rishi only interested in talking to one section of the NI population.







    British isles? Or is that not correct?
    Britain is one of the islands, Ireland the other (major) one, so you could as well say the Irish Isles as the British Isles.

    But, anyway, the Good Friday Agreement allows everyone in Northern Ireland to identify as British, and it's pretty safe to assume that any members of the Conservative and Unionist Party will identify as British, though they may think of themselves as Irish as well.

    The criticism is bizarre. How many Irish Republicans would you expect to find as members of the Tory party?
    Britannia was the name the Romans originally gave to the whole of the British Isles including Ireland. Nor did the Romans ever refer to just the largest island as Britannia. They transferred the name to the specific province they ruled in the southern half of that largest island. It only came to refer to the largest island alone after the act of Union in 1707.

    Geographically The British Isles are the whole archipelago including Ireland. But of course that derives from the fact that the British (as opposed to the Irish) wrote the rules and named stuff.

    As an aside interestingly, names can of course change and quite quickly. The North Sea was usually known as The German Sea until the middle of the 18th Century. Perhaps in the future The British Isles will indeed be The Irish Isles. It does have a rather more poetic alliteration to it.
    Better than Islands of the North Atlantic, which was apparently one suggestion.

    I'd be happy with British-Irish Isles, though who knows what a Manxer would think of it.

    Wiki tells me UK Law uses the subtly different 'British Islands' to include the bits that include the UK, Channel Islands and Isle of Man. So if someone uses that one they are not including the Republic and are well set if someone gets huffy about the name.

    Edit: Another suggestion was Anglo-Celtic Isles, which I guess might be more accurate than British?
    The advantage of "Islands Of the North Atlantic" is that you can then use the initialism of IONA, which appeals, although may cause some confusion with the Island of Iona when used in speech.

    The Atlantic Archipelago is another alternative that has been proposed, but I tend simply to use "Britain and Ireland".
    Bloody terrible idea. North Atlantic goes all the way to the equator so that's everything from iceland to the canaries and cape verde, and west to bermuda.
    The Atlantic is in general oceanographic terms normally split into three, South Atlantic, Tropical Atlantic and North Atlantic.

    But anyway, I didn't say that IONA was a perfect option.
    Isles of Britain and Ireland is the current term in some circles.
    What crap.

    British Isles DNE UK of Great Britain and NI
    North America DNE USA
    Europe DNE European Union

    Cf also British, American, and possibly too, European.
    I AM talking about the bits of isolated land not including Heligoland, the Canaries, and the Faeroes. Not the UK.
    Me too.
    They’re called the British Isles.
    Not accurate or acceptable. Ireland hasn't been part of Britain, ever. UK, some bits, different times, yes,. but not the same thing.
    I am hoping to visit Shetland next year. If, so, I plan to get one of these.
    Oh, it's well worth it. One less obvious idea - consider hiring the local ferryman to go to Mousa - broch, and seals in loch on east side. He comes back to pick you up.
    We hope to do that. I hope bird flu is over, as Mousa is currently closed to visitors to protect the birdlife.
    That's a shame; if that is still the case so too would I imagine be other places such as the Keen of Hamar on Unst (arctic flora on the serpentinite gravel almost at sea level). We stayed in the hotel at Sumbrugh that is next to Jarlshof; Lerwick; and a farm almost as north as you can get on Unst.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 31,942

    I was curious to see if Niobrara County in Wyoming, which voted so heavily against Cheney was the kind of place I thought it was. (Neither the Wikipedia article nor the county web site were especially informative.)

    And then I found this US Department of Agriculture 2017 report:
    https://www.nass.usda.gov/Publications/AgCensus/2017/Online_Resources/County_Profiles/Wyoming/cp56027.pdf
    The county then had almost 1.3 million acres of farm land, almost 60,000 cattle and calves, and about 2500 people. The average size of a farm there was more than 5,000 acres. 94 percent of the farms were family farms. About 70 percent of the families had Internet access. That's more important than it might seem; many of the farmers would want up-to-the-minute data on prices of beef, might even be hedging from time to time in the options markets.

    (From the Wikipedia article, I learned that the population of the county had shrunk from about 6400 in 1920 to about 2500, now. The 1920's and the 1930's were rough on the Great Plains.)

    Modern farming is often IT heavy. Hence the angst over the John Deere farming equipment being "locked down" so it is almost impossible to repair, except by authorised dealers.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 6,743
    Alistair said:

    EPG said:

    To be fair I do think that people expected Roe v Wade would go, at least once Kennedy stepped down.

    A lot of people naively assumed that Supreme Court nominees wouldn't perjure themselves during confirmation hearings.

    There wasn't a centrist pundit in the land who thought Row was at risk.

    Even after the draft opinion was leaked you could still find "don't freak out" columns being penned.
    This misses out some steps. Regardless of what is said at a confirmation hearing the job of a judge cannot be pre-empted by what someone says before a case is heard. Judges decide cases on what is heard and argued in court and their view of the law.

    There are two fundamental issues in RvW and successors:

    Does the constitution require that all of the USA adhere to a particular principle - the one in question.

    If yes, what is that principle and how shall it be exercised.

    Instead of looking at the politics and opinions, it is best to look at the underlying law and principles, and the quality of argument.

    Personally I think it is better that this issue is left to legislators amd voters, as has now been decided.

    Where the SC is still wrong is not doing this with guns. They have historically misread their text.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 28,779
    edited August 2022

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    kle4 said:

    If there was a smidgeon of doubt, Rishi only interested in talking to one section of the NI population.







    British isles? Or is that not correct?
    Britain is one of the islands, Ireland the other (major) one, so you could as well say the Irish Isles as the British Isles.

    But, anyway, the Good Friday Agreement allows everyone in Northern Ireland to identify as British, and it's pretty safe to assume that any members of the Conservative and Unionist Party will identify as British, though they may think of themselves as Irish as well.

    The criticism is bizarre. How many Irish Republicans would you expect to find as members of the Tory party?
    Britannia was the name the Romans originally gave to the whole of the British Isles including Ireland. Nor did the Romans ever refer to just the largest island as Britannia. They transferred the name to the specific province they ruled in the southern half of that largest island. It only came to refer to the largest island alone after the act of Union in 1707.

    Geographically The British Isles are the whole archipelago including Ireland. But of course that derives from the fact that the British (as opposed to the Irish) wrote the rules and named stuff.

    As an aside interestingly, names can of course change and quite quickly. The North Sea was usually known as The German Sea until the middle of the 18th Century. Perhaps in the future The British Isles will indeed be The Irish Isles. It does have a rather more poetic alliteration to it.
    Better than Islands of the North Atlantic, which was apparently one suggestion.

    I'd be happy with British-Irish Isles, though who knows what a Manxer would think of it.

    Wiki tells me UK Law uses the subtly different 'British Islands' to include the bits that include the UK, Channel Islands and Isle of Man. So if someone uses that one they are not including the Republic and are well set if someone gets huffy about the name.

    Edit: Another suggestion was Anglo-Celtic Isles, which I guess might be more accurate than British?
    The advantage of "Islands Of the North Atlantic" is that you can then use the initialism of IONA, which appeals, although may cause some confusion with the Island of Iona when used in speech.

    The Atlantic Archipelago is another alternative that has been proposed, but I tend simply to use "Britain and Ireland".
    Bloody terrible idea. North Atlantic goes all the way to the equator so that's everything from iceland to the canaries and cape verde, and west to bermuda.
    The Atlantic is in general oceanographic terms normally split into three, South Atlantic, Tropical Atlantic and North Atlantic.

    But anyway, I didn't say that IONA was a perfect option.
    Isles of Britain and Ireland is the current term in some circles.
    What crap.

    British Isles DNE UK of Great Britain and NI
    North America DNE USA
    Europe DNE European Union

    Cf also British, American, and possibly too, European.
    I AM talking about the bits of isolated land not including Heligoland, the Canaries, and the Faeroes. Not the UK.
    Me too.
    They’re called the British Isles.
    You don't need much imagination to realise that would irk the Irish.
    I don’t care.
    They can call it what they like.
    They’ve been the British Isles, or some variation of that term, since Roman Times.
    There's not much point in using a name for a place that pisses off a large number of people who live in that place, and that they will only use with scare quotes at best.

    Language changes and evolves and is contested, often for political reasons. The British Isles was used because of British dominance of the islands. Now that dominance is ended, so the name will go.
    Actually from a numerical perspective, the number of Irish is quite small.

    The geographic term British Isles seems to go back to Roman times, so your point about British dominance may not be correct.

    They are still the British Isles on Wikipedia. The alternatives are weird euphemisms.
    Have you considered why the Irish population is small? It used to be 8 million in 1841, compared to Britain at 18.5m or so. A certain event then took place with which the British government and aristocracy was rather associated.

    In any case, geography doesn't take into account population density.

    Edit: and you are comparing Ireland the state with Ireland the island.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 31,942
    kle4 said:

    ydoethur said:

    The Russian retreat continues...

    The Kyiv Independent
    @KyivIndependent
    ⚡️Russia pulls military aircraft out of Crimean airbases after recent explosions.

    The Ukrainian Defense Ministry's Main Intelligence Directorate reported that no less than 24 planes and 14 helicopters had been transferred out of airfields in Crimea.


    https://mobile.twitter.com/KyivIndependent/status/1559963717860737024

    Putin's invasion is a military disaster that will be studied for decades.

    It must be the most spectacularly counterproductive invasion of a country since the First Coalition issued the Brunswick Manifesto demanding the safety of Louis XVI and then invaded from Koblenz, uniting the French against them and leading to the extermination of the royal family.
    We tend to remember the successful invasions more than the much more numerous unsuccessful ones (the Spanish Armada being an exception). Turns out it is quite hard.

    The BBC had the latest British military assessment being a long grind for some time, but that's far from the worst outcome to put it mildly.
    The number of nations that start a war, and then lose is impressive. When was the last time that someone managed to start a war and then win?
  • Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    kle4 said:

    If there was a smidgeon of doubt, Rishi only interested in talking to one section of the NI population.







    British isles? Or is that not correct?
    Britain is one of the islands, Ireland the other (major) one, so you could as well say the Irish Isles as the British Isles.

    But, anyway, the Good Friday Agreement allows everyone in Northern Ireland to identify as British, and it's pretty safe to assume that any members of the Conservative and Unionist Party will identify as British, though they may think of themselves as Irish as well.

    The criticism is bizarre. How many Irish Republicans would you expect to find as members of the Tory party?
    Britannia was the name the Romans originally gave to the whole of the British Isles including Ireland. Nor did the Romans ever refer to just the largest island as Britannia. They transferred the name to the specific province they ruled in the southern half of that largest island. It only came to refer to the largest island alone after the act of Union in 1707.

    Geographically The British Isles are the whole archipelago including Ireland. But of course that derives from the fact that the British (as opposed to the Irish) wrote the rules and named stuff.

    As an aside interestingly, names can of course change and quite quickly. The North Sea was usually known as The German Sea until the middle of the 18th Century. Perhaps in the future The British Isles will indeed be The Irish Isles. It does have a rather more poetic alliteration to it.
    Better than Islands of the North Atlantic, which was apparently one suggestion.

    I'd be happy with British-Irish Isles, though who knows what a Manxer would think of it.

    Wiki tells me UK Law uses the subtly different 'British Islands' to include the bits that include the UK, Channel Islands and Isle of Man. So if someone uses that one they are not including the Republic and are well set if someone gets huffy about the name.

    Edit: Another suggestion was Anglo-Celtic Isles, which I guess might be more accurate than British?
    The advantage of "Islands Of the North Atlantic" is that you can then use the initialism of IONA, which appeals, although may cause some confusion with the Island of Iona when used in speech.

    The Atlantic Archipelago is another alternative that has been proposed, but I tend simply to use "Britain and Ireland".
    Bloody terrible idea. North Atlantic goes all the way to the equator so that's everything from iceland to the canaries and cape verde, and west to bermuda.
    The Atlantic is in general oceanographic terms normally split into three, South Atlantic, Tropical Atlantic and North Atlantic.

    But anyway, I didn't say that IONA was a perfect option.
    Isles of Britain and Ireland is the current term in some circles.
    What crap.

    British Isles DNE UK of Great Britain and NI
    North America DNE USA
    Europe DNE European Union

    Cf also British, American, and possibly too, European.
    I AM talking about the bits of isolated land not including Heligoland, the Canaries, and the Faeroes. Not the UK.
    Me too.
    They’re called the British Isles.
    You don't need much imagination to realise that would irk the Irish.
    I don’t care.
    They can call it what they like.
    They’ve been the British Isles, or some variation of that term, since Roman Times.
    There's not much point in using a name for a place that pisses off a large number of people who live in that place, and that they will only use with scare quotes at best.

    Language changes and evolves and is contested, often for political reasons. The British Isles was used because of British dominance of the islands. Now that dominance is ended, so the name will go.
    I will bet it doesn't. They will still be called the British Isles by geographers, geologists and other sundry scientific types for a long time yet. As I said earlier things do change but I very much doubt will see any change in that naming convention within our lifetimes
  • EPGEPG Posts: 5,248

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    kle4 said:

    If there was a smidgeon of doubt, Rishi only interested in talking to one section of the NI population.







    British isles? Or is that not correct?
    Britain is one of the islands, Ireland the other (major) one, so you could as well say the Irish Isles as the British Isles.

    But, anyway, the Good Friday Agreement allows everyone in Northern Ireland to identify as British, and it's pretty safe to assume that any members of the Conservative and Unionist Party will identify as British, though they may think of themselves as Irish as well.

    The criticism is bizarre. How many Irish Republicans would you expect to find as members of the Tory party?
    Britannia was the name the Romans originally gave to the whole of the British Isles including Ireland. Nor did the Romans ever refer to just the largest island as Britannia. They transferred the name to the specific province they ruled in the southern half of that largest island. It only came to refer to the largest island alone after the act of Union in 1707.

    Geographically The British Isles are the whole archipelago including Ireland. But of course that derives from the fact that the British (as opposed to the Irish) wrote the rules and named stuff.

    As an aside interestingly, names can of course change and quite quickly. The North Sea was usually known as The German Sea until the middle of the 18th Century. Perhaps in the future The British Isles will indeed be The Irish Isles. It does have a rather more poetic alliteration to it.
    Better than Islands of the North Atlantic, which was apparently one suggestion.

    I'd be happy with British-Irish Isles, though who knows what a Manxer would think of it.

    Wiki tells me UK Law uses the subtly different 'British Islands' to include the bits that include the UK, Channel Islands and Isle of Man. So if someone uses that one they are not including the Republic and are well set if someone gets huffy about the name.

    Edit: Another suggestion was Anglo-Celtic Isles, which I guess might be more accurate than British?
    The advantage of "Islands Of the North Atlantic" is that you can then use the initialism of IONA, which appeals, although may cause some confusion with the Island of Iona when used in speech.

    The Atlantic Archipelago is another alternative that has been proposed, but I tend simply to use "Britain and Ireland".
    Bloody terrible idea. North Atlantic goes all the way to the equator so that's everything from iceland to the canaries and cape verde, and west to bermuda.
    The Atlantic is in general oceanographic terms normally split into three, South Atlantic, Tropical Atlantic and North Atlantic.

    But anyway, I didn't say that IONA was a perfect option.
    Isles of Britain and Ireland is the current term in some circles.
    What crap.

    British Isles DNE UK of Great Britain and NI
    North America DNE USA
    Europe DNE European Union

    Cf also British, American, and possibly too, European.
    I AM talking about the bits of isolated land not including Heligoland, the Canaries, and the Faeroes. Not the UK.
    Me too.
    They’re called the British Isles.
    You don't need much imagination to realise that would irk the Irish.
    I don’t care.
    They can call it what they like.
    They’ve been the British Isles, or some variation of that term, since Roman Times.
    There's not much point in using a name for a place that pisses off a large number of people who live in that place, and that they will only use with scare quotes at best.

    Language changes and evolves and is contested, often for political reasons. The British Isles was used because of British dominance of the islands. Now that dominance is ended, so the name will go.
    Actually from a numerical perspective, the number of Irish is quite small.

    The geographic term British Isles seems to go back to Roman times, so your point about British dominance may not be correct.

    They are still the British Isles on Wikipedia. The alternatives are weird euphemisms.
    Ireland is not a British island. There was actually a war about this. (You lost.)
  • kle4 said:

    If there was a smidgeon of doubt, Rishi only interested in talking to one section of the NI population.







    British isles? Or is that not correct?
    Britain is one of the islands, Ireland the other (major) one, so you could as well say the Irish Isles as the British Isles.

    But, anyway, the Good Friday Agreement allows everyone in Northern Ireland to identify as British, and it's pretty safe to assume that any members of the Conservative and Unionist Party will identify as British, though they may think of themselves as Irish as well.

    The criticism is bizarre. How many Irish Republicans would you expect to find as members of the Tory party?
    Britannia was the name the Romans originally gave to the whole of the British Isles including Ireland. Nor did the Romans ever refer to just the largest island as Britannia. They transferred the name to the specific province they ruled in the southern half of that largest island. It only came to refer to the largest island alone after the act of Union in 1707.

    Geographically The British Isles are the whole archipelago including Ireland. But of course that derives from the fact that the British (as opposed to the Irish) wrote the rules and named stuff.

    As an aside interestingly, names can of course change and quite quickly. The North Sea was usually known as The German Sea until the middle of the 18th Century. Perhaps in the future The British Isles will indeed be The Irish Isles. It does have a rather more poetic alliteration to it.
    Better than Islands of the North Atlantic, which was apparently one suggestion.

    I'd be happy with British-Irish Isles, though who knows what a Manxer would think of it.

    Wiki tells me UK Law uses the subtly different 'British Islands' to include the bits that include the UK, Channel Islands and Isle of Man. So if someone uses that one they are not including the Republic and are well set if someone gets huffy about the name.

    Edit: Another suggestion was Anglo-Celtic Isles, which I guess might be more accurate than British?
    Except 'Celt' is a meaningless word with no historical basis.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 28,779

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    kle4 said:

    If there was a smidgeon of doubt, Rishi only interested in talking to one section of the NI population.







    British isles? Or is that not correct?
    Britain is one of the islands, Ireland the other (major) one, so you could as well say the Irish Isles as the British Isles.

    But, anyway, the Good Friday Agreement allows everyone in Northern Ireland to identify as British, and it's pretty safe to assume that any members of the Conservative and Unionist Party will identify as British, though they may think of themselves as Irish as well.

    The criticism is bizarre. How many Irish Republicans would you expect to find as members of the Tory party?
    Britannia was the name the Romans originally gave to the whole of the British Isles including Ireland. Nor did the Romans ever refer to just the largest island as Britannia. They transferred the name to the specific province they ruled in the southern half of that largest island. It only came to refer to the largest island alone after the act of Union in 1707.

    Geographically The British Isles are the whole archipelago including Ireland. But of course that derives from the fact that the British (as opposed to the Irish) wrote the rules and named stuff.

    As an aside interestingly, names can of course change and quite quickly. The North Sea was usually known as The German Sea until the middle of the 18th Century. Perhaps in the future The British Isles will indeed be The Irish Isles. It does have a rather more poetic alliteration to it.
    Better than Islands of the North Atlantic, which was apparently one suggestion.

    I'd be happy with British-Irish Isles, though who knows what a Manxer would think of it.

    Wiki tells me UK Law uses the subtly different 'British Islands' to include the bits that include the UK, Channel Islands and Isle of Man. So if someone uses that one they are not including the Republic and are well set if someone gets huffy about the name.

    Edit: Another suggestion was Anglo-Celtic Isles, which I guess might be more accurate than British?
    The advantage of "Islands Of the North Atlantic" is that you can then use the initialism of IONA, which appeals, although may cause some confusion with the Island of Iona when used in speech.

    The Atlantic Archipelago is another alternative that has been proposed, but I tend simply to use "Britain and Ireland".
    Bloody terrible idea. North Atlantic goes all the way to the equator so that's everything from iceland to the canaries and cape verde, and west to bermuda.
    The Atlantic is in general oceanographic terms normally split into three, South Atlantic, Tropical Atlantic and North Atlantic.

    But anyway, I didn't say that IONA was a perfect option.
    Isles of Britain and Ireland is the current term in some circles.
    What crap.

    British Isles DNE UK of Great Britain and NI
    North America DNE USA
    Europe DNE European Union

    Cf also British, American, and possibly too, European.
    I AM talking about the bits of isolated land not including Heligoland, the Canaries, and the Faeroes. Not the UK.
    Me too.
    They’re called the British Isles.
    You don't need much imagination to realise that would irk the Irish.
    I don’t care.
    They can call it what they like.
    They’ve been the British Isles, or some variation of that term, since Roman Times.
    There's not much point in using a name for a place that pisses off a large number of people who live in that place, and that they will only use with scare quotes at best.

    Language changes and evolves and is contested, often for political reasons. The British Isles was used because of British dominance of the islands. Now that dominance is ended, so the name will go.
    I will bet it doesn't. They will still be called the British Isles by geographers, geologists and other sundry scientific types for a long time yet. As I said earlier things do change but I very much doubt will see any change in that naming convention within our lifetimes
    Oh, it's happening within historical and scholarly discourse already.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 17,547
    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    kle4 said:

    If there was a smidgeon of doubt, Rishi only interested in talking to one section of the NI population.







    British isles? Or is that not correct?
    Britain is one of the islands, Ireland the other (major) one, so you could as well say the Irish Isles as the British Isles.

    But, anyway, the Good Friday Agreement allows everyone in Northern Ireland to identify as British, and it's pretty safe to assume that any members of the Conservative and Unionist Party will identify as British, though they may think of themselves as Irish as well.

    The criticism is bizarre. How many Irish Republicans would you expect to find as members of the Tory party?
    Britannia was the name the Romans originally gave to the whole of the British Isles including Ireland. Nor did the Romans ever refer to just the largest island as Britannia. They transferred the name to the specific province they ruled in the southern half of that largest island. It only came to refer to the largest island alone after the act of Union in 1707.

    Geographically The British Isles are the whole archipelago including Ireland. But of course that derives from the fact that the British (as opposed to the Irish) wrote the rules and named stuff.

    As an aside interestingly, names can of course change and quite quickly. The North Sea was usually known as The German Sea until the middle of the 18th Century. Perhaps in the future The British Isles will indeed be The Irish Isles. It does have a rather more poetic alliteration to it.
    Better than Islands of the North Atlantic, which was apparently one suggestion.

    I'd be happy with British-Irish Isles, though who knows what a Manxer would think of it.

    Wiki tells me UK Law uses the subtly different 'British Islands' to include the bits that include the UK, Channel Islands and Isle of Man. So if someone uses that one they are not including the Republic and are well set if someone gets huffy about the name.

    Edit: Another suggestion was Anglo-Celtic Isles, which I guess might be more accurate than British?
    The advantage of "Islands Of the North Atlantic" is that you can then use the initialism of IONA, which appeals, although may cause some confusion with the Island of Iona when used in speech.

    The Atlantic Archipelago is another alternative that has been proposed, but I tend simply to use "Britain and Ireland".
    Bloody terrible idea. North Atlantic goes all the way to the equator so that's everything from iceland to the canaries and cape verde, and west to bermuda.
    The Atlantic is in general oceanographic terms normally split into three, South Atlantic, Tropical Atlantic and North Atlantic.

    But anyway, I didn't say that IONA was a perfect option.
    Isles of Britain and Ireland is the current term in some circles.
    What crap.

    British Isles DNE UK of Great Britain and NI
    North America DNE USA
    Europe DNE European Union

    Cf also British, American, and possibly too, European.
    I AM talking about the bits of isolated land not including Heligoland, the Canaries, and the Faeroes. Not the UK.
    Me too.
    They’re called the British Isles.
    You don't need much imagination to realise that would irk the Irish.
    I don’t care.
    They can call it what they like.
    They’ve been the British Isles, or some variation of that term, since Roman Times.
    There's not much point in using a name for a place that pisses off a large number of people who live in that place, and that they will only use with scare quotes at best.

    Language changes and evolves and is contested, often for political reasons. The British Isles was used because of British dominance of the islands. Now that dominance is ended, so the name will go.
    Actually from a numerical perspective, the number of Irish is quite small.

    The geographic term British Isles seems to go back to Roman times, so your point about British dominance may not be correct.

    They are still the British Isles on Wikipedia. The alternatives are weird euphemisms.
    Have you considered why the Irish population is small? It used to be 8 million in 1841, compared to Britain at 18.5m or so. A certain event then took place with which the British government and aristocracy was rather associated.

    In any case, geography doesn't take into account population density.
    I am aware of the relevant history, thanks.
    Your citing it leads me to suspect that a name change is based on righting historic wrongs.

    I don’t really buy into that stuff, it’s invariably bollocks.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 28,779

    kle4 said:

    If there was a smidgeon of doubt, Rishi only interested in talking to one section of the NI population.







    British isles? Or is that not correct?
    Britain is one of the islands, Ireland the other (major) one, so you could as well say the Irish Isles as the British Isles.

    But, anyway, the Good Friday Agreement allows everyone in Northern Ireland to identify as British, and it's pretty safe to assume that any members of the Conservative and Unionist Party will identify as British, though they may think of themselves as Irish as well.

    The criticism is bizarre. How many Irish Republicans would you expect to find as members of the Tory party?
    Britannia was the name the Romans originally gave to the whole of the British Isles including Ireland. Nor did the Romans ever refer to just the largest island as Britannia. They transferred the name to the specific province they ruled in the southern half of that largest island. It only came to refer to the largest island alone after the act of Union in 1707.

    Geographically The British Isles are the whole archipelago including Ireland. But of course that derives from the fact that the British (as opposed to the Irish) wrote the rules and named stuff.

    As an aside interestingly, names can of course change and quite quickly. The North Sea was usually known as The German Sea until the middle of the 18th Century. Perhaps in the future The British Isles will indeed be The Irish Isles. It does have a rather more poetic alliteration to it.
    Better than Islands of the North Atlantic, which was apparently one suggestion.

    I'd be happy with British-Irish Isles, though who knows what a Manxer would think of it.

    Wiki tells me UK Law uses the subtly different 'British Islands' to include the bits that include the UK, Channel Islands and Isle of Man. So if someone uses that one they are not including the Republic and are well set if someone gets huffy about the name.

    Edit: Another suggestion was Anglo-Celtic Isles, which I guess might be more accurate than British?
    Except 'Celt' is a meaningless word with no historical basis.
    And where are the Saxons, Danes, Norse and Normans, one wants to know?
  • Sean_F said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    algarkirk said:

    If overturning RvW has the effect of properly returning the issue, as in the UK, from courts to electors this will be a massive gain.

    Yes, that's very much my opinion.

    And Kansas tells us that - in the vast majority of US states - abortion will continue to be legal and available. The exceptions will be in the Deep South and Utah,

    It is, however, worth noting that the Republican Party has got itself into a bit of a pickle here. There are a couple of US States where legal abortion is popular, and yet Republican controlled legislatures have passed laws that broadly criminalise it. While RvW existed, this was of little import; it was virtue signaling to primary voters.

    Now, though, those laws come into existence.

    Voters, for what it's worth, tend to support restrictions on abortion. But very few of them support blanket bans.

    The key question, really, is how much abortion matters.

    And Kansas tells us the answer is quite a lot. Around 200,000 independents came out to vote in the Kansas ballot proposition, even though they couldn't vote in either party's primaries. Overall turnout was up close to 90% from the 2018 primaries.

    That's a hell of a lot of people who cared enough to come out and vote.

    Now, this doesn't mean that those people will vote Democrat. But they might well come out to overturn blanket abortion bans. And that probably means voting Democrat.
    You've hit us before with your hot take that it's all a thoroughly good thing if the right of women to choose what happens to their own bodies is taken from them and handed to a bare majority in their own state. And if the only losers are a few thousand women, including victims of rape/incest, in Alabama or whatever then, y'know, state rights or something.

    It's still a rotten take - as intellectually shallow as it is callous.
    I apologize for being intellectually shallow.

    But I believe process matters. And process means democratic buy in.

    I'm sorry that abortion will be illegal in some states. It sucks for the women involved. But decisions about criminality should be made by voters.
    And if those voters decide that slavery should be legal again? Or all homosexuals should be chemically castrated? Would you still hold to that claim?

    Churchill's comment on democracy - "democracy is the worst form of Government except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time" is perfectly true but within its construction there is an explicit and valid criticism.

    Democracy is flawed and like any other system created by man it needs constant supervision and challenge. That is why we have the other arms of Government. Because pure democracy killed Socrates. Because Hitler and Trump were both democratically elected and because there are some basic principles which are even more important than democracy.

    I think you have drawn your line in the wrong place in the sand.

    Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

    If abortion, or other contentious issues, are exclusively a matter for the courts, well, the appointment of judges then just becomes a matter of political partisanship, as we've seen.
    The issue there is with making the appointment of judges a political matter rather than with the power they exercise.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 28,779

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    kle4 said:

    If there was a smidgeon of doubt, Rishi only interested in talking to one section of the NI population.







    British isles? Or is that not correct?
    Britain is one of the islands, Ireland the other (major) one, so you could as well say the Irish Isles as the British Isles.

    But, anyway, the Good Friday Agreement allows everyone in Northern Ireland to identify as British, and it's pretty safe to assume that any members of the Conservative and Unionist Party will identify as British, though they may think of themselves as Irish as well.

    The criticism is bizarre. How many Irish Republicans would you expect to find as members of the Tory party?
    Britannia was the name the Romans originally gave to the whole of the British Isles including Ireland. Nor did the Romans ever refer to just the largest island as Britannia. They transferred the name to the specific province they ruled in the southern half of that largest island. It only came to refer to the largest island alone after the act of Union in 1707.

    Geographically The British Isles are the whole archipelago including Ireland. But of course that derives from the fact that the British (as opposed to the Irish) wrote the rules and named stuff.

    As an aside interestingly, names can of course change and quite quickly. The North Sea was usually known as The German Sea until the middle of the 18th Century. Perhaps in the future The British Isles will indeed be The Irish Isles. It does have a rather more poetic alliteration to it.
    Better than Islands of the North Atlantic, which was apparently one suggestion.

    I'd be happy with British-Irish Isles, though who knows what a Manxer would think of it.

    Wiki tells me UK Law uses the subtly different 'British Islands' to include the bits that include the UK, Channel Islands and Isle of Man. So if someone uses that one they are not including the Republic and are well set if someone gets huffy about the name.

    Edit: Another suggestion was Anglo-Celtic Isles, which I guess might be more accurate than British?
    The advantage of "Islands Of the North Atlantic" is that you can then use the initialism of IONA, which appeals, although may cause some confusion with the Island of Iona when used in speech.

    The Atlantic Archipelago is another alternative that has been proposed, but I tend simply to use "Britain and Ireland".
    Bloody terrible idea. North Atlantic goes all the way to the equator so that's everything from iceland to the canaries and cape verde, and west to bermuda.
    The Atlantic is in general oceanographic terms normally split into three, South Atlantic, Tropical Atlantic and North Atlantic.

    But anyway, I didn't say that IONA was a perfect option.
    Isles of Britain and Ireland is the current term in some circles.
    What crap.

    British Isles DNE UK of Great Britain and NI
    North America DNE USA
    Europe DNE European Union

    Cf also British, American, and possibly too, European.
    I AM talking about the bits of isolated land not including Heligoland, the Canaries, and the Faeroes. Not the UK.
    Me too.
    They’re called the British Isles.
    You don't need much imagination to realise that would irk the Irish.
    I don’t care.
    They can call it what they like.
    They’ve been the British Isles, or some variation of that term, since Roman Times.
    There's not much point in using a name for a place that pisses off a large number of people who live in that place, and that they will only use with scare quotes at best.

    Language changes and evolves and is contested, often for political reasons. The British Isles was used because of British dominance of the islands. Now that dominance is ended, so the name will go.
    Actually from a numerical perspective, the number of Irish is quite small.

    The geographic term British Isles seems to go back to Roman times, so your point about British dominance may not be correct.

    They are still the British Isles on Wikipedia. The alternatives are weird euphemisms.
    Have you considered why the Irish population is small? It used to be 8 million in 1841, compared to Britain at 18.5m or so. A certain event then took place with which the British government and aristocracy was rather associated.

    In any case, geography doesn't take into account population density.
    I am aware of the relevant history, thanks.
    Your citing it leads me to suspect that a name change is based on righting historic wrongs.

    I don’t really buy into that stuff, it’s invariably bollocks.

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    kle4 said:

    If there was a smidgeon of doubt, Rishi only interested in talking to one section of the NI population.







    British isles? Or is that not correct?
    Britain is one of the islands, Ireland the other (major) one, so you could as well say the Irish Isles as the British Isles.

    But, anyway, the Good Friday Agreement allows everyone in Northern Ireland to identify as British, and it's pretty safe to assume that any members of the Conservative and Unionist Party will identify as British, though they may think of themselves as Irish as well.

    The criticism is bizarre. How many Irish Republicans would you expect to find as members of the Tory party?
    Britannia was the name the Romans originally gave to the whole of the British Isles including Ireland. Nor did the Romans ever refer to just the largest island as Britannia. They transferred the name to the specific province they ruled in the southern half of that largest island. It only came to refer to the largest island alone after the act of Union in 1707.

    Geographically The British Isles are the whole archipelago including Ireland. But of course that derives from the fact that the British (as opposed to the Irish) wrote the rules and named stuff.

    As an aside interestingly, names can of course change and quite quickly. The North Sea was usually known as The German Sea until the middle of the 18th Century. Perhaps in the future The British Isles will indeed be The Irish Isles. It does have a rather more poetic alliteration to it.
    Better than Islands of the North Atlantic, which was apparently one suggestion.

    I'd be happy with British-Irish Isles, though who knows what a Manxer would think of it.

    Wiki tells me UK Law uses the subtly different 'British Islands' to include the bits that include the UK, Channel Islands and Isle of Man. So if someone uses that one they are not including the Republic and are well set if someone gets huffy about the name.

    Edit: Another suggestion was Anglo-Celtic Isles, which I guess might be more accurate than British?
    The advantage of "Islands Of the North Atlantic" is that you can then use the initialism of IONA, which appeals, although may cause some confusion with the Island of Iona when used in speech.

    The Atlantic Archipelago is another alternative that has been proposed, but I tend simply to use "Britain and Ireland".
    Bloody terrible idea. North Atlantic goes all the way to the equator so that's everything from iceland to the canaries and cape verde, and west to bermuda.
    The Atlantic is in general oceanographic terms normally split into three, South Atlantic, Tropical Atlantic and North Atlantic.

    But anyway, I didn't say that IONA was a perfect option.
    Isles of Britain and Ireland is the current term in some circles.
    What crap.

    British Isles DNE UK of Great Britain and NI
    North America DNE USA
    Europe DNE European Union

    Cf also British, American, and possibly too, European.
    I AM talking about the bits of isolated land not including Heligoland, the Canaries, and the Faeroes. Not the UK.
    Me too.
    They’re called the British Isles.
    You don't need much imagination to realise that would irk the Irish.
    I don’t care.
    They can call it what they like.
    They’ve been the British Isles, or some variation of that term, since Roman Times.
    There's not much point in using a name for a place that pisses off a large number of people who live in that place, and that they will only use with scare quotes at best.

    Language changes and evolves and is contested, often for political reasons. The British Isles was used because of British dominance of the islands. Now that dominance is ended, so the name will go.
    Actually from a numerical perspective, the number of Irish is quite small.

    The geographic term British Isles seems to go back to Roman times, so your point about British dominance may not be correct.

    They are still the British Isles on Wikipedia. The alternatives are weird euphemisms.
    Have you considered why the Irish population is small? It used to be 8 million in 1841, compared to Britain at 18.5m or so. A certain event then took place with which the British government and aristocracy was rather associated.

    In any case, geography doesn't take into account population density.
    I am aware of the relevant history, thanks.
    Your citing it leads me to suspect that a name change is based on righting historic wrongs.

    I don’t really buy into that stuff, it’s invariably bollocks.
    Not as far as I can see: just geographical accuracy. Rather than clinging to outmoded myths of imperial power.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 17,547
    EPG said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    kle4 said:

    If there was a smidgeon of doubt, Rishi only interested in talking to one section of the NI population.







    British isles? Or is that not correct?
    Britain is one of the islands, Ireland the other (major) one, so you could as well say the Irish Isles as the British Isles.

    But, anyway, the Good Friday Agreement allows everyone in Northern Ireland to identify as British, and it's pretty safe to assume that any members of the Conservative and Unionist Party will identify as British, though they may think of themselves as Irish as well.

    The criticism is bizarre. How many Irish Republicans would you expect to find as members of the Tory party?
    Britannia was the name the Romans originally gave to the whole of the British Isles including Ireland. Nor did the Romans ever refer to just the largest island as Britannia. They transferred the name to the specific province they ruled in the southern half of that largest island. It only came to refer to the largest island alone after the act of Union in 1707.

    Geographically The British Isles are the whole archipelago including Ireland. But of course that derives from the fact that the British (as opposed to the Irish) wrote the rules and named stuff.

    As an aside interestingly, names can of course change and quite quickly. The North Sea was usually known as The German Sea until the middle of the 18th Century. Perhaps in the future The British Isles will indeed be The Irish Isles. It does have a rather more poetic alliteration to it.
    Better than Islands of the North Atlantic, which was apparently one suggestion.

    I'd be happy with British-Irish Isles, though who knows what a Manxer would think of it.

    Wiki tells me UK Law uses the subtly different 'British Islands' to include the bits that include the UK, Channel Islands and Isle of Man. So if someone uses that one they are not including the Republic and are well set if someone gets huffy about the name.

    Edit: Another suggestion was Anglo-Celtic Isles, which I guess might be more accurate than British?
    The advantage of "Islands Of the North Atlantic" is that you can then use the initialism of IONA, which appeals, although may cause some confusion with the Island of Iona when used in speech.

    The Atlantic Archipelago is another alternative that has been proposed, but I tend simply to use "Britain and Ireland".
    Bloody terrible idea. North Atlantic goes all the way to the equator so that's everything from iceland to the canaries and cape verde, and west to bermuda.
    The Atlantic is in general oceanographic terms normally split into three, South Atlantic, Tropical Atlantic and North Atlantic.

    But anyway, I didn't say that IONA was a perfect option.
    Isles of Britain and Ireland is the current term in some circles.
    What crap.

    British Isles DNE UK of Great Britain and NI
    North America DNE USA
    Europe DNE European Union

    Cf also British, American, and possibly too, European.
    I AM talking about the bits of isolated land not including Heligoland, the Canaries, and the Faeroes. Not the UK.
    Me too.
    They’re called the British Isles.
    You don't need much imagination to realise that would irk the Irish.
    I don’t care.
    They can call it what they like.
    They’ve been the British Isles, or some variation of that term, since Roman Times.
    There's not much point in using a name for a place that pisses off a large number of people who live in that place, and that they will only use with scare quotes at best.

    Language changes and evolves and is contested, often for political reasons. The British Isles was used because of British dominance of the islands. Now that dominance is ended, so the name will go.
    Actually from a numerical perspective, the number of Irish is quite small.

    The geographic term British Isles seems to go back to Roman times, so your point about British dominance may not be correct.

    They are still the British Isles on Wikipedia. The alternatives are weird euphemisms.
    Ireland is not a British island. There was actually a war about this. (You lost.)
    Geographically it is.

    I don’t remember fighting a war.
    Personally I have fought no wars, what about you?
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 17,547
    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    kle4 said:

    If there was a smidgeon of doubt, Rishi only interested in talking to one section of the NI population.







    British isles? Or is that not correct?
    Britain is one of the islands, Ireland the other (major) one, so you could as well say the Irish Isles as the British Isles.

    But, anyway, the Good Friday Agreement allows everyone in Northern Ireland to identify as British, and it's pretty safe to assume that any members of the Conservative and Unionist Party will identify as British, though they may think of themselves as Irish as well.

    The criticism is bizarre. How many Irish Republicans would you expect to find as members of the Tory party?
    Britannia was the name the Romans originally gave to the whole of the British Isles including Ireland. Nor did the Romans ever refer to just the largest island as Britannia. They transferred the name to the specific province they ruled in the southern half of that largest island. It only came to refer to the largest island alone after the act of Union in 1707.

    Geographically The British Isles are the whole archipelago including Ireland. But of course that derives from the fact that the British (as opposed to the Irish) wrote the rules and named stuff.

    As an aside interestingly, names can of course change and quite quickly. The North Sea was usually known as The German Sea until the middle of the 18th Century. Perhaps in the future The British Isles will indeed be The Irish Isles. It does have a rather more poetic alliteration to it.
    Better than Islands of the North Atlantic, which was apparently one suggestion.

    I'd be happy with British-Irish Isles, though who knows what a Manxer would think of it.

    Wiki tells me UK Law uses the subtly different 'British Islands' to include the bits that include the UK, Channel Islands and Isle of Man. So if someone uses that one they are not including the Republic and are well set if someone gets huffy about the name.

    Edit: Another suggestion was Anglo-Celtic Isles, which I guess might be more accurate than British?
    The advantage of "Islands Of the North Atlantic" is that you can then use the initialism of IONA, which appeals, although may cause some confusion with the Island of Iona when used in speech.

    The Atlantic Archipelago is another alternative that has been proposed, but I tend simply to use "Britain and Ireland".
    Bloody terrible idea. North Atlantic goes all the way to the equator so that's everything from iceland to the canaries and cape verde, and west to bermuda.
    The Atlantic is in general oceanographic terms normally split into three, South Atlantic, Tropical Atlantic and North Atlantic.

    But anyway, I didn't say that IONA was a perfect option.
    Isles of Britain and Ireland is the current term in some circles.
    What crap.

    British Isles DNE UK of Great Britain and NI
    North America DNE USA
    Europe DNE European Union

    Cf also British, American, and possibly too, European.
    I AM talking about the bits of isolated land not including Heligoland, the Canaries, and the Faeroes. Not the UK.
    Me too.
    They’re called the British Isles.
    You don't need much imagination to realise that would irk the Irish.
    I don’t care.
    They can call it what they like.
    They’ve been the British Isles, or some variation of that term, since Roman Times.
    There's not much point in using a name for a place that pisses off a large number of people who live in that place, and that they will only use with scare quotes at best.

    Language changes and evolves and is contested, often for political reasons. The British Isles was used because of British dominance of the islands. Now that dominance is ended, so the name will go.
    Actually from a numerical perspective, the number of Irish is quite small.

    The geographic term British Isles seems to go back to Roman times, so your point about British dominance may not be correct.

    They are still the British Isles on Wikipedia. The alternatives are weird euphemisms.
    Have you considered why the Irish population is small? It used to be 8 million in 1841, compared to Britain at 18.5m or so. A certain event then took place with which the British government and aristocracy was rather associated.

    In any case, geography doesn't take into account population density.
    I am aware of the relevant history, thanks.
    Your citing it leads me to suspect that a name change is based on righting historic wrongs.

    I don’t really buy into that stuff, it’s invariably bollocks.

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    kle4 said:

    If there was a smidgeon of doubt, Rishi only interested in talking to one section of the NI population.







    British isles? Or is that not correct?
    Britain is one of the islands, Ireland the other (major) one, so you could as well say the Irish Isles as the British Isles.

    But, anyway, the Good Friday Agreement allows everyone in Northern Ireland to identify as British, and it's pretty safe to assume that any members of the Conservative and Unionist Party will identify as British, though they may think of themselves as Irish as well.

    The criticism is bizarre. How many Irish Republicans would you expect to find as members of the Tory party?
    Britannia was the name the Romans originally gave to the whole of the British Isles including Ireland. Nor did the Romans ever refer to just the largest island as Britannia. They transferred the name to the specific province they ruled in the southern half of that largest island. It only came to refer to the largest island alone after the act of Union in 1707.

    Geographically The British Isles are the whole archipelago including Ireland. But of course that derives from the fact that the British (as opposed to the Irish) wrote the rules and named stuff.

    As an aside interestingly, names can of course change and quite quickly. The North Sea was usually known as The German Sea until the middle of the 18th Century. Perhaps in the future The British Isles will indeed be The Irish Isles. It does have a rather more poetic alliteration to it.
    Better than Islands of the North Atlantic, which was apparently one suggestion.

    I'd be happy with British-Irish Isles, though who knows what a Manxer would think of it.

    Wiki tells me UK Law uses the subtly different 'British Islands' to include the bits that include the UK, Channel Islands and Isle of Man. So if someone uses that one they are not including the Republic and are well set if someone gets huffy about the name.

    Edit: Another suggestion was Anglo-Celtic Isles, which I guess might be more accurate than British?
    The advantage of "Islands Of the North Atlantic" is that you can then use the initialism of IONA, which appeals, although may cause some confusion with the Island of Iona when used in speech.

    The Atlantic Archipelago is another alternative that has been proposed, but I tend simply to use "Britain and Ireland".
    Bloody terrible idea. North Atlantic goes all the way to the equator so that's everything from iceland to the canaries and cape verde, and west to bermuda.
    The Atlantic is in general oceanographic terms normally split into three, South Atlantic, Tropical Atlantic and North Atlantic.

    But anyway, I didn't say that IONA was a perfect option.
    Isles of Britain and Ireland is the current term in some circles.
    What crap.

    British Isles DNE UK of Great Britain and NI
    North America DNE USA
    Europe DNE European Union

    Cf also British, American, and possibly too, European.
    I AM talking about the bits of isolated land not including Heligoland, the Canaries, and the Faeroes. Not the UK.
    Me too.
    They’re called the British Isles.
    You don't need much imagination to realise that would irk the Irish.
    I don’t care.
    They can call it what they like.
    They’ve been the British Isles, or some variation of that term, since Roman Times.
    There's not much point in using a name for a place that pisses off a large number of people who live in that place, and that they will only use with scare quotes at best.

    Language changes and evolves and is contested, often for political reasons. The British Isles was used because of British dominance of the islands. Now that dominance is ended, so the name will go.
    Actually from a numerical perspective, the number of Irish is quite small.

    The geographic term British Isles seems to go back to Roman times, so your point about British dominance may not be correct.

    They are still the British Isles on Wikipedia. The alternatives are weird euphemisms.
    Have you considered why the Irish population is small? It used to be 8 million in 1841, compared to Britain at 18.5m or so. A certain event then took place with which the British government and aristocracy was rather associated.

    In any case, geography doesn't take into account population density.
    I am aware of the relevant history, thanks.
    Your citing it leads me to suspect that a name change is based on righting historic wrongs.

    I don’t really buy into that stuff, it’s invariably bollocks.
    Not as far as I can see: just geographical accuracy. Rather than clinging to outmoded myths of imperial power.
    Geographical accuracy is why they are commonly referred to as the British Isles.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 43,306
    EPG said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    kle4 said:

    If there was a smidgeon of doubt, Rishi only interested in talking to one section of the NI population.







    British isles? Or is that not correct?
    Britain is one of the islands, Ireland the other (major) one, so you could as well say the Irish Isles as the British Isles.

    But, anyway, the Good Friday Agreement allows everyone in Northern Ireland to identify as British, and it's pretty safe to assume that any members of the Conservative and Unionist Party will identify as British, though they may think of themselves as Irish as well.

    The criticism is bizarre. How many Irish Republicans would you expect to find as members of the Tory party?
    Britannia was the name the Romans originally gave to the whole of the British Isles including Ireland. Nor did the Romans ever refer to just the largest island as Britannia. They transferred the name to the specific province they ruled in the southern half of that largest island. It only came to refer to the largest island alone after the act of Union in 1707.

    Geographically The British Isles are the whole archipelago including Ireland. But of course that derives from the fact that the British (as opposed to the Irish) wrote the rules and named stuff.

    As an aside interestingly, names can of course change and quite quickly. The North Sea was usually known as The German Sea until the middle of the 18th Century. Perhaps in the future The British Isles will indeed be The Irish Isles. It does have a rather more poetic alliteration to it.
    Better than Islands of the North Atlantic, which was apparently one suggestion.

    I'd be happy with British-Irish Isles, though who knows what a Manxer would think of it.

    Wiki tells me UK Law uses the subtly different 'British Islands' to include the bits that include the UK, Channel Islands and Isle of Man. So if someone uses that one they are not including the Republic and are well set if someone gets huffy about the name.

    Edit: Another suggestion was Anglo-Celtic Isles, which I guess might be more accurate than British?
    The advantage of "Islands Of the North Atlantic" is that you can then use the initialism of IONA, which appeals, although may cause some confusion with the Island of Iona when used in speech.

    The Atlantic Archipelago is another alternative that has been proposed, but I tend simply to use "Britain and Ireland".
    Bloody terrible idea. North Atlantic goes all the way to the equator so that's everything from iceland to the canaries and cape verde, and west to bermuda.
    The Atlantic is in general oceanographic terms normally split into three, South Atlantic, Tropical Atlantic and North Atlantic.

    But anyway, I didn't say that IONA was a perfect option.
    Isles of Britain and Ireland is the current term in some circles.
    What crap.

    British Isles DNE UK of Great Britain and NI
    North America DNE USA
    Europe DNE European Union

    Cf also British, American, and possibly too, European.
    I AM talking about the bits of isolated land not including Heligoland, the Canaries, and the Faeroes. Not the UK.
    Me too.
    They’re called the British Isles.
    You don't need much imagination to realise that would irk the Irish.
    I don’t care.
    They can call it what they like.
    They’ve been the British Isles, or some variation of that term, since Roman Times.
    There's not much point in using a name for a place that pisses off a large number of people who live in that place, and that they will only use with scare quotes at best.

    Language changes and evolves and is contested, often for political reasons. The British Isles was used because of British dominance of the islands. Now that dominance is ended, so the name will go.
    Actually from a numerical perspective, the number of Irish is quite small.

    The geographic term British Isles seems to go back to Roman times, so your point about British dominance may not be correct.

    They are still the British Isles on Wikipedia. The alternatives are weird euphemisms.
    Ireland is not a British island. There was actually a war about this. (You lost.)
    The outcome of that war was a Free Irish State as part of the British Empire, so if you regard it as decisive on this question then you should accept that it is a British island.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 11,183

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    kle4 said:

    If there was a smidgeon of doubt, Rishi only interested in talking to one section of the NI population.







    British isles? Or is that not correct?
    Britain is one of the islands, Ireland the other (major) one, so you could as well say the Irish Isles as the British Isles.

    But, anyway, the Good Friday Agreement allows everyone in Northern Ireland to identify as British, and it's pretty safe to assume that any members of the Conservative and Unionist Party will identify as British, though they may think of themselves as Irish as well.

    The criticism is bizarre. How many Irish Republicans would you expect to find as members of the Tory party?
    Britannia was the name the Romans originally gave to the whole of the British Isles including Ireland. Nor did the Romans ever refer to just the largest island as Britannia. They transferred the name to the specific province they ruled in the southern half of that largest island. It only came to refer to the largest island alone after the act of Union in 1707.

    Geographically The British Isles are the whole archipelago including Ireland. But of course that derives from the fact that the British (as opposed to the Irish) wrote the rules and named stuff.

    As an aside interestingly, names can of course change and quite quickly. The North Sea was usually known as The German Sea until the middle of the 18th Century. Perhaps in the future The British Isles will indeed be The Irish Isles. It does have a rather more poetic alliteration to it.
    Better than Islands of the North Atlantic, which was apparently one suggestion.

    I'd be happy with British-Irish Isles, though who knows what a Manxer would think of it.

    Wiki tells me UK Law uses the subtly different 'British Islands' to include the bits that include the UK, Channel Islands and Isle of Man. So if someone uses that one they are not including the Republic and are well set if someone gets huffy about the name.

    Edit: Another suggestion was Anglo-Celtic Isles, which I guess might be more accurate than British?
    The advantage of "Islands Of the North Atlantic" is that you can then use the initialism of IONA, which appeals, although may cause some confusion with the Island of Iona when used in speech.

    The Atlantic Archipelago is another alternative that has been proposed, but I tend simply to use "Britain and Ireland".
    Bloody terrible idea. North Atlantic goes all the way to the equator so that's everything from iceland to the canaries and cape verde, and west to bermuda.
    The Atlantic is in general oceanographic terms normally split into three, South Atlantic, Tropical Atlantic and North Atlantic.

    But anyway, I didn't say that IONA was a perfect option.
    Isles of Britain and Ireland is the current term in some circles.
    What crap.

    British Isles DNE UK of Great Britain and NI
    North America DNE USA
    Europe DNE European Union

    Cf also British, American, and possibly too, European.
    I AM talking about the bits of isolated land not including Heligoland, the Canaries, and the Faeroes. Not the UK.
    Me too.
    They’re called the British Isles.
    You don't need much imagination to realise that would irk the Irish.
    I don’t care.
    They can call it what they like.
    They’ve been the British Isles, or some variation of that term, since Roman Times.
    There's not much point in using a name for a place that pisses off a large number of people who live in that place, and that they will only use with scare quotes at best.

    Language changes and evolves and is contested, often for political reasons. The British Isles was used because of British dominance of the islands. Now that dominance is ended, so the name will go.
    Actually from a numerical perspective, the number of Irish is quite small.

    The geographic term British Isles seems to go back to Roman times, so your point about British dominance may not be correct.

    They are still the British Isles on Wikipedia. The alternatives are weird euphemisms.
    Quoting numerical perspectives is fraught with difficulty in this context. Before the Irish famine the 1841 census gave a population of Ireland of over 8 million, compared to a population of just over 18 and a half for England, Wales and Scotland.

    That's an 1841 ratio of about 9:4 to compare with the modern ratio of about 9.3:1
  • Carnyx said:

    kle4 said:

    If there was a smidgeon of doubt, Rishi only interested in talking to one section of the NI population.







    British isles? Or is that not correct?
    Britain is one of the islands, Ireland the other (major) one, so you could as well say the Irish Isles as the British Isles.

    But, anyway, the Good Friday Agreement allows everyone in Northern Ireland to identify as British, and it's pretty safe to assume that any members of the Conservative and Unionist Party will identify as British, though they may think of themselves as Irish as well.

    The criticism is bizarre. How many Irish Republicans would you expect to find as members of the Tory party?
    Britannia was the name the Romans originally gave to the whole of the British Isles including Ireland. Nor did the Romans ever refer to just the largest island as Britannia. They transferred the name to the specific province they ruled in the southern half of that largest island. It only came to refer to the largest island alone after the act of Union in 1707.

    Geographically The British Isles are the whole archipelago including Ireland. But of course that derives from the fact that the British (as opposed to the Irish) wrote the rules and named stuff.

    As an aside interestingly, names can of course change and quite quickly. The North Sea was usually known as The German Sea until the middle of the 18th Century. Perhaps in the future The British Isles will indeed be The Irish Isles. It does have a rather more poetic alliteration to it.
    Better than Islands of the North Atlantic, which was apparently one suggestion.

    I'd be happy with British-Irish Isles, though who knows what a Manxer would think of it.

    Wiki tells me UK Law uses the subtly different 'British Islands' to include the bits that include the UK, Channel Islands and Isle of Man. So if someone uses that one they are not including the Republic and are well set if someone gets huffy about the name.

    Edit: Another suggestion was Anglo-Celtic Isles, which I guess might be more accurate than British?
    Except 'Celt' is a meaningless word with no historical basis.
    And where are the Saxons, Danes, Norse and Normans, one wants to know?
    All around us. Along with the Picts, the Jutes and the Irish.
  • EPGEPG Posts: 5,248

    EPG said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    kle4 said:

    If there was a smidgeon of doubt, Rishi only interested in talking to one section of the NI population.







    British isles? Or is that not correct?
    Britain is one of the islands, Ireland the other (major) one, so you could as well say the Irish Isles as the British Isles.

    But, anyway, the Good Friday Agreement allows everyone in Northern Ireland to identify as British, and it's pretty safe to assume that any members of the Conservative and Unionist Party will identify as British, though they may think of themselves as Irish as well.

    The criticism is bizarre. How many Irish Republicans would you expect to find as members of the Tory party?
    Britannia was the name the Romans originally gave to the whole of the British Isles including Ireland. Nor did the Romans ever refer to just the largest island as Britannia. They transferred the name to the specific province they ruled in the southern half of that largest island. It only came to refer to the largest island alone after the act of Union in 1707.

    Geographically The British Isles are the whole archipelago including Ireland. But of course that derives from the fact that the British (as opposed to the Irish) wrote the rules and named stuff.

    As an aside interestingly, names can of course change and quite quickly. The North Sea was usually known as The German Sea until the middle of the 18th Century. Perhaps in the future The British Isles will indeed be The Irish Isles. It does have a rather more poetic alliteration to it.
    Better than Islands of the North Atlantic, which was apparently one suggestion.

    I'd be happy with British-Irish Isles, though who knows what a Manxer would think of it.

    Wiki tells me UK Law uses the subtly different 'British Islands' to include the bits that include the UK, Channel Islands and Isle of Man. So if someone uses that one they are not including the Republic and are well set if someone gets huffy about the name.

    Edit: Another suggestion was Anglo-Celtic Isles, which I guess might be more accurate than British?
    The advantage of "Islands Of the North Atlantic" is that you can then use the initialism of IONA, which appeals, although may cause some confusion with the Island of Iona when used in speech.

    The Atlantic Archipelago is another alternative that has been proposed, but I tend simply to use "Britain and Ireland".
    Bloody terrible idea. North Atlantic goes all the way to the equator so that's everything from iceland to the canaries and cape verde, and west to bermuda.
    The Atlantic is in general oceanographic terms normally split into three, South Atlantic, Tropical Atlantic and North Atlantic.

    But anyway, I didn't say that IONA was a perfect option.
    Isles of Britain and Ireland is the current term in some circles.
    What crap.

    British Isles DNE UK of Great Britain and NI
    North America DNE USA
    Europe DNE European Union

    Cf also British, American, and possibly too, European.
    I AM talking about the bits of isolated land not including Heligoland, the Canaries, and the Faeroes. Not the UK.
    Me too.
    They’re called the British Isles.
    You don't need much imagination to realise that would irk the Irish.
    I don’t care.
    They can call it what they like.
    They’ve been the British Isles, or some variation of that term, since Roman Times.
    There's not much point in using a name for a place that pisses off a large number of people who live in that place, and that they will only use with scare quotes at best.

    Language changes and evolves and is contested, often for political reasons. The British Isles was used because of British dominance of the islands. Now that dominance is ended, so the name will go.
    Actually from a numerical perspective, the number of Irish is quite small.

    The geographic term British Isles seems to go back to Roman times, so your point about British dominance may not be correct.

    They are still the British Isles on Wikipedia. The alternatives are weird euphemisms.
    Ireland is not a British island. There was actually a war about this. (You lost.)
    Geographically it is.

    I don’t remember fighting a war.
    Personally I have fought no wars, what about you?
    Geographically I hope you're insisting on "European Britain".

    British people who thought Ireland was British fought a war and lost.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 15,145
    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    kle4 said:

    If there was a smidgeon of doubt, Rishi only interested in talking to one section of the NI population.



    British isles? Or is that not correct?
    Britain is one of the islands, Ireland the other (major) one, so you could as well say the Irish Isles as the British Isles.

    But, anyway, the Good Friday Agreement allows everyone in Northern Ireland to identify as British, and it's pretty safe to assume that any members of the Conservative and Unionist Party will identify as British, though they may think of themselves as Irish as well.

    The criticism is bizarre. How many Irish Republicans would you expect to find as members of the Tory party?
    Britannia was the name the Romans originally gave to the whole of the British Isles including Ireland. Nor did the Romans ever refer to just the largest island as Britannia. They transferred the name to the specific province they ruled in the southern half of that largest island. It only came to refer to the largest island alone after the act of Union in 1707.

    Geographically The British Isles are the whole archipelago including Ireland. But of course that derives from the fact that the British (as opposed to the Irish) wrote the rules and named stuff.

    As an aside interestingly, names can of course change and quite quickly. The North Sea was usually known as The German Sea until the middle of the 18th Century. Perhaps in the future The British Isles will indeed be The Irish Isles. It does have a rather more poetic alliteration to it.
    Better than Islands of the North Atlantic, which was apparently one suggestion.

    I'd be happy with British-Irish Isles, though who knows what a Manxer would think of it.

    Wiki tells me UK Law uses the subtly different 'British Islands' to include the bits that include the UK, Channel Islands and Isle of Man. So if someone uses that one they are not including the Republic and are well set if someone gets huffy about the name.

    Edit: Another suggestion was Anglo-Celtic Isles, which I guess might be more accurate than British?
    The advantage of "Islands Of the North Atlantic" is that you can then use the initialism of IONA, which appeals, although may cause some confusion with the Island of Iona when used in speech.

    The Atlantic Archipelago is another alternative that has been proposed, but I tend simply to use "Britain and Ireland".
    Bloody terrible idea. North Atlantic goes all the way to the equator so that's everything from iceland to the canaries and cape verde, and west to bermuda.
    The Atlantic is in general oceanographic terms normally split into three, South Atlantic, Tropical Atlantic and North Atlantic.

    But anyway, I didn't say that IONA was a perfect option.
    Isles of Britain and Ireland is the current term in some circles.
    What crap.

    British Isles DNE UK of Great Britain and NI
    North America DNE USA
    Europe DNE European Union

    Cf also British, American, and possibly too, European.
    I AM talking about the bits of isolated land not including Heligoland, the Canaries, and the Faeroes. Not the UK.
    Me too.
    They’re called the British Isles.
    You don't need much imagination to realise that would irk the Irish.
    I don’t care.
    They can call it what they like.
    They’ve been the British Isles, or some variation of that term, since Roman Times.
    Have they? Thought it was Hibernia Britanniaque or similar.
    The Wikipedia consensus:

    The post-conquest Romans used Britannia or Britannia Magna (Large Britain) for Britain, and Hibernia or Britannia Parva (Small Britain) for Ireland.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 25,230
    kle4 said:

    dixiedean said:

    Alistair said:

    In a victory for parental control over schools that many on here are so keen on "The Diary of Anne Frank" is banned in a Texas school district.

    https://www.jpost.com/diaspora/antisemitism/article-714895

    LOL.
    They've ended up banning the Bible.
    Banning any book challenged for whatever reason was the logical endpoint.
    Seems like it might be a bit more coordinated than it first appears though - removing all which have been challenged pending a rewriting of the guidance on how to review the challenges, so presumably some might be returned in due course.
    Yes. Who will review the challenges? How are they appointed? And paid? What are the criteria? And grounds for appeal?
    This is a minefield. I wonder if it a threat of the end of the Enlightenment?
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 17,547
    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    kle4 said:

    If there was a smidgeon of doubt, Rishi only interested in talking to one section of the NI population.







    British isles? Or is that not correct?
    Britain is one of the islands, Ireland the other (major) one, so you could as well say the Irish Isles as the British Isles.

    But, anyway, the Good Friday Agreement allows everyone in Northern Ireland to identify as British, and it's pretty safe to assume that any members of the Conservative and Unionist Party will identify as British, though they may think of themselves as Irish as well.

    The criticism is bizarre. How many Irish Republicans would you expect to find as members of the Tory party?
    Britannia was the name the Romans originally gave to the whole of the British Isles including Ireland. Nor did the Romans ever refer to just the largest island as Britannia. They transferred the name to the specific province they ruled in the southern half of that largest island. It only came to refer to the largest island alone after the act of Union in 1707.

    Geographically The British Isles are the whole archipelago including Ireland. But of course that derives from the fact that the British (as opposed to the Irish) wrote the rules and named stuff.

    As an aside interestingly, names can of course change and quite quickly. The North Sea was usually known as The German Sea until the middle of the 18th Century. Perhaps in the future The British Isles will indeed be The Irish Isles. It does have a rather more poetic alliteration to it.
    Better than Islands of the North Atlantic, which was apparently one suggestion.

    I'd be happy with British-Irish Isles, though who knows what a Manxer would think of it.

    Wiki tells me UK Law uses the subtly different 'British Islands' to include the bits that include the UK, Channel Islands and Isle of Man. So if someone uses that one they are not including the Republic and are well set if someone gets huffy about the name.

    Edit: Another suggestion was Anglo-Celtic Isles, which I guess might be more accurate than British?
    The advantage of "Islands Of the North Atlantic" is that you can then use the initialism of IONA, which appeals, although may cause some confusion with the Island of Iona when used in speech.

    The Atlantic Archipelago is another alternative that has been proposed, but I tend simply to use "Britain and Ireland".
    Bloody terrible idea. North Atlantic goes all the way to the equator so that's everything from iceland to the canaries and cape verde, and west to bermuda.
    The Atlantic is in general oceanographic terms normally split into three, South Atlantic, Tropical Atlantic and North Atlantic.

    But anyway, I didn't say that IONA was a perfect option.
    Isles of Britain and Ireland is the current term in some circles.
    What crap.

    British Isles DNE UK of Great Britain and NI
    North America DNE USA
    Europe DNE European Union

    Cf also British, American, and possibly too, European.
    I AM talking about the bits of isolated land not including Heligoland, the Canaries, and the Faeroes. Not the UK.
    Me too.
    They’re called the British Isles.
    You don't need much imagination to realise that would irk the Irish.
    I don’t care.
    They can call it what they like.
    They’ve been the British Isles, or some variation of that term, since Roman Times.
    There's not much point in using a name for a place that pisses off a large number of people who live in that place, and that they will only use with scare quotes at best.

    Language changes and evolves and is contested, often for political reasons. The British Isles was used because of British dominance of the islands. Now that dominance is ended, so the name will go.
    I will bet it doesn't. They will still be called the British Isles by geographers, geologists and other sundry scientific types for a long time yet. As I said earlier things do change but I very much doubt will see any change in that naming convention within our lifetimes
    Oh, it's happening within historical and scholarly discourse already.
    So is the word “Latinx”, yet it sounds stubbornly like bullshit to 99% of people.
  • EPGEPG Posts: 5,248

    EPG said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    kle4 said:

    If there was a smidgeon of doubt, Rishi only interested in talking to one section of the NI population.







    British isles? Or is that not correct?
    Britain is one of the islands, Ireland the other (major) one, so you could as well say the Irish Isles as the British Isles.

    But, anyway, the Good Friday Agreement allows everyone in Northern Ireland to identify as British, and it's pretty safe to assume that any members of the Conservative and Unionist Party will identify as British, though they may think of themselves as Irish as well.

    The criticism is bizarre. How many Irish Republicans would you expect to find as members of the Tory party?
    Britannia was the name the Romans originally gave to the whole of the British Isles including Ireland. Nor did the Romans ever refer to just the largest island as Britannia. They transferred the name to the specific province they ruled in the southern half of that largest island. It only came to refer to the largest island alone after the act of Union in 1707.

    Geographically The British Isles are the whole archipelago including Ireland. But of course that derives from the fact that the British (as opposed to the Irish) wrote the rules and named stuff.

    As an aside interestingly, names can of course change and quite quickly. The North Sea was usually known as The German Sea until the middle of the 18th Century. Perhaps in the future The British Isles will indeed be The Irish Isles. It does have a rather more poetic alliteration to it.
    Better than Islands of the North Atlantic, which was apparently one suggestion.

    I'd be happy with British-Irish Isles, though who knows what a Manxer would think of it.

    Wiki tells me UK Law uses the subtly different 'British Islands' to include the bits that include the UK, Channel Islands and Isle of Man. So if someone uses that one they are not including the Republic and are well set if someone gets huffy about the name.

    Edit: Another suggestion was Anglo-Celtic Isles, which I guess might be more accurate than British?
    The advantage of "Islands Of the North Atlantic" is that you can then use the initialism of IONA, which appeals, although may cause some confusion with the Island of Iona when used in speech.

    The Atlantic Archipelago is another alternative that has been proposed, but I tend simply to use "Britain and Ireland".
    Bloody terrible idea. North Atlantic goes all the way to the equator so that's everything from iceland to the canaries and cape verde, and west to bermuda.
    The Atlantic is in general oceanographic terms normally split into three, South Atlantic, Tropical Atlantic and North Atlantic.

    But anyway, I didn't say that IONA was a perfect option.
    Isles of Britain and Ireland is the current term in some circles.
    What crap.

    British Isles DNE UK of Great Britain and NI
    North America DNE USA
    Europe DNE European Union

    Cf also British, American, and possibly too, European.
    I AM talking about the bits of isolated land not including Heligoland, the Canaries, and the Faeroes. Not the UK.
    Me too.
    They’re called the British Isles.
    You don't need much imagination to realise that would irk the Irish.
    I don’t care.
    They can call it what they like.
    They’ve been the British Isles, or some variation of that term, since Roman Times.
    There's not much point in using a name for a place that pisses off a large number of people who live in that place, and that they will only use with scare quotes at best.

    Language changes and evolves and is contested, often for political reasons. The British Isles was used because of British dominance of the islands. Now that dominance is ended, so the name will go.
    Actually from a numerical perspective, the number of Irish is quite small.

    The geographic term British Isles seems to go back to Roman times, so your point about British dominance may not be correct.

    They are still the British Isles on Wikipedia. The alternatives are weird euphemisms.
    Ireland is not a British island. There was actually a war about this. (You lost.)
    The outcome of that war was a Free Irish State as part of the British Empire, so if you regard it as decisive on this question then you should accept that it is a British island.
    You lost, and the outcome was that the new government got out of Britain as soon as it could. Given the history of war crimes and genocide ordered by British politicians to keep Ireland British, a gradual approach is understandable.
  • Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    kle4 said:

    If there was a smidgeon of doubt, Rishi only interested in talking to one section of the NI population.







    British isles? Or is that not correct?
    Britain is one of the islands, Ireland the other (major) one, so you could as well say the Irish Isles as the British Isles.

    But, anyway, the Good Friday Agreement allows everyone in Northern Ireland to identify as British, and it's pretty safe to assume that any members of the Conservative and Unionist Party will identify as British, though they may think of themselves as Irish as well.

    The criticism is bizarre. How many Irish Republicans would you expect to find as members of the Tory party?
    Britannia was the name the Romans originally gave to the whole of the British Isles including Ireland. Nor did the Romans ever refer to just the largest island as Britannia. They transferred the name to the specific province they ruled in the southern half of that largest island. It only came to refer to the largest island alone after the act of Union in 1707.

    Geographically The British Isles are the whole archipelago including Ireland. But of course that derives from the fact that the British (as opposed to the Irish) wrote the rules and named stuff.

    As an aside interestingly, names can of course change and quite quickly. The North Sea was usually known as The German Sea until the middle of the 18th Century. Perhaps in the future The British Isles will indeed be The Irish Isles. It does have a rather more poetic alliteration to it.
    Better than Islands of the North Atlantic, which was apparently one suggestion.

    I'd be happy with British-Irish Isles, though who knows what a Manxer would think of it.

    Wiki tells me UK Law uses the subtly different 'British Islands' to include the bits that include the UK, Channel Islands and Isle of Man. So if someone uses that one they are not including the Republic and are well set if someone gets huffy about the name.

    Edit: Another suggestion was Anglo-Celtic Isles, which I guess might be more accurate than British?
    The advantage of "Islands Of the North Atlantic" is that you can then use the initialism of IONA, which appeals, although may cause some confusion with the Island of Iona when used in speech.

    The Atlantic Archipelago is another alternative that has been proposed, but I tend simply to use "Britain and Ireland".
    Bloody terrible idea. North Atlantic goes all the way to the equator so that's everything from iceland to the canaries and cape verde, and west to bermuda.
    The Atlantic is in general oceanographic terms normally split into three, South Atlantic, Tropical Atlantic and North Atlantic.

    But anyway, I didn't say that IONA was a perfect option.
    Isles of Britain and Ireland is the current term in some circles.
    What crap.

    British Isles DNE UK of Great Britain and NI
    North America DNE USA
    Europe DNE European Union

    Cf also British, American, and possibly too, European.
    I AM talking about the bits of isolated land not including Heligoland, the Canaries, and the Faeroes. Not the UK.
    Me too.
    They’re called the British Isles.
    You don't need much imagination to realise that would irk the Irish.
    I don’t care.
    They can call it what they like.
    They’ve been the British Isles, or some variation of that term, since Roman Times.
    There's not much point in using a name for a place that pisses off a large number of people who live in that place, and that they will only use with scare quotes at best.

    Language changes and evolves and is contested, often for political reasons. The British Isles was used because of British dominance of the islands. Now that dominance is ended, so the name will go.
    I will bet it doesn't. They will still be called the British Isles by geographers, geologists and other sundry scientific types for a long time yet. As I said earlier things do change but I very much doubt will see any change in that naming convention within our lifetimes
    Oh, it's happening within historical and scholarly discourse already.
    Of course it is. But they aren't the ones who actually use it in a modern setting. The British Isles has a specific geographic and geological meaning within those disciplines and those always take a lot longer to change.

    Like I say, I prefer the Irish Isles for its poetic nature. But I don't get to decide either.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 11,183

    kle4 said:

    ydoethur said:

    The Russian retreat continues...

    The Kyiv Independent
    @KyivIndependent
    ⚡️Russia pulls military aircraft out of Crimean airbases after recent explosions.

    The Ukrainian Defense Ministry's Main Intelligence Directorate reported that no less than 24 planes and 14 helicopters had been transferred out of airfields in Crimea.


    https://mobile.twitter.com/KyivIndependent/status/1559963717860737024

    Putin's invasion is a military disaster that will be studied for decades.

    It must be the most spectacularly counterproductive invasion of a country since the First Coalition issued the Brunswick Manifesto demanding the safety of Louis XVI and then invaded from Koblenz, uniting the French against them and leading to the extermination of the royal family.
    We tend to remember the successful invasions more than the much more numerous unsuccessful ones (the Spanish Armada being an exception). Turns out it is quite hard.

    The BBC had the latest British military assessment being a long grind for some time, but that's far from the worst outcome to put it mildly.
    The number of nations that start a war, and then lose is impressive. When was the last time that someone managed to start a war and then win?
    Isn't this because the winners of a war tend to write the history, and so naturally paint themselves as innocent victims. Had the Germans won in WWII the official history would have been that the Poles are foolish to start the war, and so it's no wonder that they lost, as the aggressors so often do...
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 20,376

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    kle4 said:

    If there was a smidgeon of doubt, Rishi only interested in talking to one section of the NI population.







    British isles? Or is that not correct?
    Britain is one of the islands, Ireland the other (major) one, so you could as well say the Irish Isles as the British Isles.

    But, anyway, the Good Friday Agreement allows everyone in Northern Ireland to identify as British, and it's pretty safe to assume that any members of the Conservative and Unionist Party will identify as British, though they may think of themselves as Irish as well.

    The criticism is bizarre. How many Irish Republicans would you expect to find as members of the Tory party?
    Britannia was the name the Romans originally gave to the whole of the British Isles including Ireland. Nor did the Romans ever refer to just the largest island as Britannia. They transferred the name to the specific province they ruled in the southern half of that largest island. It only came to refer to the largest island alone after the act of Union in 1707.

    Geographically The British Isles are the whole archipelago including Ireland. But of course that derives from the fact that the British (as opposed to the Irish) wrote the rules and named stuff.

    As an aside interestingly, names can of course change and quite quickly. The North Sea was usually known as The German Sea until the middle of the 18th Century. Perhaps in the future The British Isles will indeed be The Irish Isles. It does have a rather more poetic alliteration to it.
    Better than Islands of the North Atlantic, which was apparently one suggestion.

    I'd be happy with British-Irish Isles, though who knows what a Manxer would think of it.

    Wiki tells me UK Law uses the subtly different 'British Islands' to include the bits that include the UK, Channel Islands and Isle of Man. So if someone uses that one they are not including the Republic and are well set if someone gets huffy about the name.

    Edit: Another suggestion was Anglo-Celtic Isles, which I guess might be more accurate than British?
    The advantage of "Islands Of the North Atlantic" is that you can then use the initialism of IONA, which appeals, although may cause some confusion with the Island of Iona when used in speech.

    The Atlantic Archipelago is another alternative that has been proposed, but I tend simply to use "Britain and Ireland".
    Bloody terrible idea. North Atlantic goes all the way to the equator so that's everything from iceland to the canaries and cape verde, and west to bermuda.
    The Atlantic is in general oceanographic terms normally split into three, South Atlantic, Tropical Atlantic and North Atlantic.

    But anyway, I didn't say that IONA was a perfect option.
    Isles of Britain and Ireland is the current term in some circles.
    What crap.

    British Isles DNE UK of Great Britain and NI
    North America DNE USA
    Europe DNE European Union

    Cf also British, American, and possibly too, European.
    I AM talking about the bits of isolated land not including Heligoland, the Canaries, and the Faeroes. Not the UK.
    Me too.
    They’re called the British Isles.
    You don't need much imagination to realise that would irk the Irish.
    I don’t care.
    They can call it what they like.
    They’ve been the British Isles, or some variation of that term, since Roman Times.
    There's not much point in using a name for a place that pisses off a large number of people who live in that place, and that they will only use with scare quotes at best.

    Language changes and evolves and is contested, often for political reasons. The British Isles was used because of British dominance of the islands. Now that dominance is ended, so the name will go.
    Actually from a numerical perspective, the number of Irish is quite small.

    The geographic term British Isles seems to go back to Roman times, so your point about British dominance may not be correct.

    They are still the British Isles on Wikipedia. The alternatives are weird euphemisms.
    Have you considered why the Irish population is small? It used to be 8 million in 1841, compared to Britain at 18.5m or so. A certain event then took place with which the British government and aristocracy was rather associated.

    In any case, geography doesn't take into account population density.
    I am aware of the relevant history, thanks.
    Your citing it leads me to suspect that a name change is based on righting historic wrongs.

    I don’t really buy into that stuff, it’s invariably bollocks.

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    kle4 said:

    If there was a smidgeon of doubt, Rishi only interested in talking to one section of the NI population.







    British isles? Or is that not correct?
    Britain is one of the islands, Ireland the other (major) one, so you could as well say the Irish Isles as the British Isles.

    But, anyway, the Good Friday Agreement allows everyone in Northern Ireland to identify as British, and it's pretty safe to assume that any members of the Conservative and Unionist Party will identify as British, though they may think of themselves as Irish as well.

    The criticism is bizarre. How many Irish Republicans would you expect to find as members of the Tory party?
    Britannia was the name the Romans originally gave to the whole of the British Isles including Ireland. Nor did the Romans ever refer to just the largest island as Britannia. They transferred the name to the specific province they ruled in the southern half of that largest island. It only came to refer to the largest island alone after the act of Union in 1707.

    Geographically The British Isles are the whole archipelago including Ireland. But of course that derives from the fact that the British (as opposed to the Irish) wrote the rules and named stuff.

    As an aside interestingly, names can of course change and quite quickly. The North Sea was usually known as The German Sea until the middle of the 18th Century. Perhaps in the future The British Isles will indeed be The Irish Isles. It does have a rather more poetic alliteration to it.
    Better than Islands of the North Atlantic, which was apparently one suggestion.

    I'd be happy with British-Irish Isles, though who knows what a Manxer would think of it.

    Wiki tells me UK Law uses the subtly different 'British Islands' to include the bits that include the UK, Channel Islands and Isle of Man. So if someone uses that one they are not including the Republic and are well set if someone gets huffy about the name.

    Edit: Another suggestion was Anglo-Celtic Isles, which I guess might be more accurate than British?
    The advantage of "Islands Of the North Atlantic" is that you can then use the initialism of IONA, which appeals, although may cause some confusion with the Island of Iona when used in speech.

    The Atlantic Archipelago is another alternative that has been proposed, but I tend simply to use "Britain and Ireland".
    Bloody terrible idea. North Atlantic goes all the way to the equator so that's everything from iceland to the canaries and cape verde, and west to bermuda.
    The Atlantic is in general oceanographic terms normally split into three, South Atlantic, Tropical Atlantic and North Atlantic.

    But anyway, I didn't say that IONA was a perfect option.
    Isles of Britain and Ireland is the current term in some circles.
    What crap.

    British Isles DNE UK of Great Britain and NI
    North America DNE USA
    Europe DNE European Union

    Cf also British, American, and possibly too, European.
    I AM talking about the bits of isolated land not including Heligoland, the Canaries, and the Faeroes. Not the UK.
    Me too.
    They’re called the British Isles.
    You don't need much imagination to realise that would irk the Irish.
    I don’t care.
    They can call it what they like.
    They’ve been the British Isles, or some variation of that term, since Roman Times.
    There's not much point in using a name for a place that pisses off a large number of people who live in that place, and that they will only use with scare quotes at best.

    Language changes and evolves and is contested, often for political reasons. The British Isles was used because of British dominance of the islands. Now that dominance is ended, so the name will go.
    Actually from a numerical perspective, the number of Irish is quite small.

    The geographic term British Isles seems to go back to Roman times, so your point about British dominance may not be correct.

    They are still the British Isles on Wikipedia. The alternatives are weird euphemisms.
    Have you considered why the Irish population is small? It used to be 8 million in 1841, compared to Britain at 18.5m or so. A certain event then took place with which the British government and aristocracy was rather associated.

    In any case, geography doesn't take into account population density.
    I am aware of the relevant history, thanks.
    Your citing it leads me to suspect that a name change is based on righting historic wrongs.

    I don’t really buy into that stuff, it’s invariably bollocks.
    Not as far as I can see: just geographical accuracy. Rather than clinging to outmoded myths of imperial power.
    Geographical accuracy is why they are commonly referred to as the British Isles.
    It's quite the Nat blind spot that geographical terms like 'Britain' and 'The British Isles' are not subject to political argy bargy. Many simply can't accept that they are British, and if Scotland leaves the UK, they will be no less British. So it's hardly surprising that the Republic of Ireland still being part of the British Isles raises the blood pressure.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 6,743
    EPG said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    kle4 said:

    If there was a smidgeon of doubt, Rishi only interested in talking to one section of the NI population.







    British isles? Or is that not correct?
    Britain is one of the islands, Ireland the other (major) one, so you could as well say the Irish Isles as the British Isles.

    But, anyway, the Good Friday Agreement allows everyone in Northern Ireland to identify as British, and it's pretty safe to assume that any members of the Conservative and Unionist Party will identify as British, though they may think of themselves as Irish as well.

    The criticism is bizarre. How many Irish Republicans would you expect to find as members of the Tory party?
    Britannia was the name the Romans originally gave to the whole of the British Isles including Ireland. Nor did the Romans ever refer to just the largest island as Britannia. They transferred the name to the specific province they ruled in the southern half of that largest island. It only came to refer to the largest island alone after the act of Union in 1707.

    Geographically The British Isles are the whole archipelago including Ireland. But of course that derives from the fact that the British (as opposed to the Irish) wrote the rules and named stuff.

    As an aside interestingly, names can of course change and quite quickly. The North Sea was usually known as The German Sea until the middle of the 18th Century. Perhaps in the future The British Isles will indeed be The Irish Isles. It does have a rather more poetic alliteration to it.
    Better than Islands of the North Atlantic, which was apparently one suggestion.

    I'd be happy with British-Irish Isles, though who knows what a Manxer would think of it.

    Wiki tells me UK Law uses the subtly different 'British Islands' to include the bits that include the UK, Channel Islands and Isle of Man. So if someone uses that one they are not including the Republic and are well set if someone gets huffy about the name.

    Edit: Another suggestion was Anglo-Celtic Isles, which I guess might be more accurate than British?
    The advantage of "Islands Of the North Atlantic" is that you can then use the initialism of IONA, which appeals, although may cause some confusion with the Island of Iona when used in speech.

    The Atlantic Archipelago is another alternative that has been proposed, but I tend simply to use "Britain and Ireland".
    Bloody terrible idea. North Atlantic goes all the way to the equator so that's everything from iceland to the canaries and cape verde, and west to bermuda.
    The Atlantic is in general oceanographic terms normally split into three, South Atlantic, Tropical Atlantic and North Atlantic.

    But anyway, I didn't say that IONA was a perfect option.
    Isles of Britain and Ireland is the current term in some circles.
    What crap.

    British Isles DNE UK of Great Britain and NI
    North America DNE USA
    Europe DNE European Union

    Cf also British, American, and possibly too, European.
    I AM talking about the bits of isolated land not including Heligoland, the Canaries, and the Faeroes. Not the UK.
    Me too.
    They’re called the British Isles.
    You don't need much imagination to realise that would irk the Irish.
    I don’t care.
    They can call it what they like.
    They’ve been the British Isles, or some variation of that term, since Roman Times.
    There's not much point in using a name for a place that pisses off a large number of people who live in that place, and that they will only use with scare quotes at best.

    Language changes and evolves and is contested, often for political reasons. The British Isles was used because of British dominance of the islands. Now that dominance is ended, so the name will go.
    Actually from a numerical perspective, the number of Irish is quite small.

    The geographic term British Isles seems to go back to Roman times, so your point about British dominance may not be correct.

    They are still the British Isles on Wikipedia. The alternatives are weird euphemisms.
    Ireland is not a British island. There was actually a war about this. (You lost.)
    The term Britain goes back way before the Anglo Saxon period and the formation of England. It has always referred where the context requires to the islands of the North Atlantic, just as Irish Sea refers to the sea which links the largest and second largest islands. As a concept it embraces the Celtic/Britannic elements of the islands, to which the Teutonic/Scandinavian have been subsequently added. As we don't hold the present generation of Germans responsible for the wickednesses of the 20th century there is no point in the inhabitants of these islands - which collectively are fabulous, and we are lucky to be part of it - treating each other as if there is a past war still going on.

  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 43,306
    EPG said:

    EPG said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    kle4 said:

    If there was a smidgeon of doubt, Rishi only interested in talking to one section of the NI population.







    British isles? Or is that not correct?
    Britain is one of the islands, Ireland the other (major) one, so you could as well say the Irish Isles as the British Isles.

    But, anyway, the Good Friday Agreement allows everyone in Northern Ireland to identify as British, and it's pretty safe to assume that any members of the Conservative and Unionist Party will identify as British, though they may think of themselves as Irish as well.

    The criticism is bizarre. How many Irish Republicans would you expect to find as members of the Tory party?
    Britannia was the name the Romans originally gave to the whole of the British Isles including Ireland. Nor did the Romans ever refer to just the largest island as Britannia. They transferred the name to the specific province they ruled in the southern half of that largest island. It only came to refer to the largest island alone after the act of Union in 1707.

    Geographically The British Isles are the whole archipelago including Ireland. But of course that derives from the fact that the British (as opposed to the Irish) wrote the rules and named stuff.

    As an aside interestingly, names can of course change and quite quickly. The North Sea was usually known as The German Sea until the middle of the 18th Century. Perhaps in the future The British Isles will indeed be The Irish Isles. It does have a rather more poetic alliteration to it.
    Better than Islands of the North Atlantic, which was apparently one suggestion.

    I'd be happy with British-Irish Isles, though who knows what a Manxer would think of it.

    Wiki tells me UK Law uses the subtly different 'British Islands' to include the bits that include the UK, Channel Islands and Isle of Man. So if someone uses that one they are not including the Republic and are well set if someone gets huffy about the name.

    Edit: Another suggestion was Anglo-Celtic Isles, which I guess might be more accurate than British?
    The advantage of "Islands Of the North Atlantic" is that you can then use the initialism of IONA, which appeals, although may cause some confusion with the Island of Iona when used in speech.

    The Atlantic Archipelago is another alternative that has been proposed, but I tend simply to use "Britain and Ireland".
    Bloody terrible idea. North Atlantic goes all the way to the equator so that's everything from iceland to the canaries and cape verde, and west to bermuda.
    The Atlantic is in general oceanographic terms normally split into three, South Atlantic, Tropical Atlantic and North Atlantic.

    But anyway, I didn't say that IONA was a perfect option.
    Isles of Britain and Ireland is the current term in some circles.
    What crap.

    British Isles DNE UK of Great Britain and NI
    North America DNE USA
    Europe DNE European Union

    Cf also British, American, and possibly too, European.
    I AM talking about the bits of isolated land not including Heligoland, the Canaries, and the Faeroes. Not the UK.
    Me too.
    They’re called the British Isles.
    You don't need much imagination to realise that would irk the Irish.
    I don’t care.
    They can call it what they like.
    They’ve been the British Isles, or some variation of that term, since Roman Times.
    There's not much point in using a name for a place that pisses off a large number of people who live in that place, and that they will only use with scare quotes at best.

    Language changes and evolves and is contested, often for political reasons. The British Isles was used because of British dominance of the islands. Now that dominance is ended, so the name will go.
    Actually from a numerical perspective, the number of Irish is quite small.

    The geographic term British Isles seems to go back to Roman times, so your point about British dominance may not be correct.

    They are still the British Isles on Wikipedia. The alternatives are weird euphemisms.
    Ireland is not a British island. There was actually a war about this. (You lost.)
    The outcome of that war was a Free Irish State as part of the British Empire, so if you regard it as decisive on this question then you should accept that it is a British island.
    You lost, and the outcome was that the new government got out of Britain as soon as it could. Given the history of war crimes and genocide ordered by British politicians to keep Ireland British, a gradual approach is understandable.
    The Irish Republic eventually renounced its maximalist claims and accepted that British identity would be protected on the island of Ireland permanently.
  • Following discussions at work, it looks like we will going full WFH starting October until next Aprilish.

    The energy cap doesn't apply to businesses, and well I suspect we won't be the only ones going full WFH.

    Latest projections are we could pay each employee several thousands over the winter to WFH and it will still be cheaper than heating the office.

    That's another blow to city centres and businesses who really on commuters/workers.

    Conversely, there will probably be WFH people who want to get back to the office this winter so the company pays for their heating.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 17,547
    EPG said:

    EPG said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    kle4 said:

    If there was a smidgeon of doubt, Rishi only interested in talking to one section of the NI population.







    British isles? Or is that not correct?
    Britain is one of the islands, Ireland the other (major) one, so you could as well say the Irish Isles as the British Isles.

    But, anyway, the Good Friday Agreement allows everyone in Northern Ireland to identify as British, and it's pretty safe to assume that any members of the Conservative and Unionist Party will identify as British, though they may think of themselves as Irish as well.

    The criticism is bizarre. How many Irish Republicans would you expect to find as members of the Tory party?
    Britannia was the name the Romans originally gave to the whole of the British Isles including Ireland. Nor did the Romans ever refer to just the largest island as Britannia. They transferred the name to the specific province they ruled in the southern half of that largest island. It only came to refer to the largest island alone after the act of Union in 1707.

    Geographically The British Isles are the whole archipelago including Ireland. But of course that derives from the fact that the British (as opposed to the Irish) wrote the rules and named stuff.

    As an aside interestingly, names can of course change and quite quickly. The North Sea was usually known as The German Sea until the middle of the 18th Century. Perhaps in the future The British Isles will indeed be The Irish Isles. It does have a rather more poetic alliteration to it.
    Better than Islands of the North Atlantic, which was apparently one suggestion.

    I'd be happy with British-Irish Isles, though who knows what a Manxer would think of it.

    Wiki tells me UK Law uses the subtly different 'British Islands' to include the bits that include the UK, Channel Islands and Isle of Man. So if someone uses that one they are not including the Republic and are well set if someone gets huffy about the name.

    Edit: Another suggestion was Anglo-Celtic Isles, which I guess might be more accurate than British?
    The advantage of "Islands Of the North Atlantic" is that you can then use the initialism of IONA, which appeals, although may cause some confusion with the Island of Iona when used in speech.

    The Atlantic Archipelago is another alternative that has been proposed, but I tend simply to use "Britain and Ireland".
    Bloody terrible idea. North Atlantic goes all the way to the equator so that's everything from iceland to the canaries and cape verde, and west to bermuda.
    The Atlantic is in general oceanographic terms normally split into three, South Atlantic, Tropical Atlantic and North Atlantic.

    But anyway, I didn't say that IONA was a perfect option.
    Isles of Britain and Ireland is the current term in some circles.
    What crap.

    British Isles DNE UK of Great Britain and NI
    North America DNE USA
    Europe DNE European Union

    Cf also British, American, and possibly too, European.
    I AM talking about the bits of isolated land not including Heligoland, the Canaries, and the Faeroes. Not the UK.
    Me too.
    They’re called the British Isles.
    You don't need much imagination to realise that would irk the Irish.
    I don’t care.
    They can call it what they like.
    They’ve been the British Isles, or some variation of that term, since Roman Times.
    There's not much point in using a name for a place that pisses off a large number of people who live in that place, and that they will only use with scare quotes at best.

    Language changes and evolves and is contested, often for political reasons. The British Isles was used because of British dominance of the islands. Now that dominance is ended, so the name will go.
    Actually from a numerical perspective, the number of Irish is quite small.

    The geographic term British Isles seems to go back to Roman times, so your point about British dominance may not be correct.

    They are still the British Isles on Wikipedia. The alternatives are weird euphemisms.
    Ireland is not a British island. There was actually a war about this. (You lost.)
    Geographically it is.

    I don’t remember fighting a war.
    Personally I have fought no wars, what about you?
    Geographically I hope you're insisting on "European Britain".

    British people who thought Ireland was British fought a war and lost.
    Britain is geographically part of Europe, yes.

    Again, there is a difference between geography and international politics, and we use words to mean different things in those domains.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 56,563

    Following discussions at work, it looks like we will going full WFH starting October until next Aprilish.

    The energy cap doesn't apply to businesses, and well I suspect we won't be the only ones going full WFH.

    Latest projections are we could pay each employee several thousands over the winter to WFH and it will still be cheaper than heating the office.

    That's another blow to city centres and businesses who rely on commuters/workers.

    A terminal one to cafes and coffee shops, I suspect.
  • DynamoDynamo Posts: 651
    edited August 2022

    kle4 said:

    If there was a smidgeon of doubt, Rishi only interested in talking to one section of the NI population.







    British isles? Or is that not correct?
    Britain is one of the islands, Ireland the other (major) one, so you could as well say the Irish Isles as the British Isles.

    But, anyway, the Good Friday Agreement allows everyone in Northern Ireland to identify as British, and it's pretty safe to assume that any members of the Conservative and Unionist Party will identify as British, though they may think of themselves as Irish as well.

    The criticism is bizarre. How many Irish Republicans would you expect to find as members of the Tory party?
    Britannia was the name the Romans originally gave to the whole of the British Isles including Ireland. Nor did the Romans ever refer to just the largest island as Britannia. They transferred the name to the specific province they ruled in the southern half of that largest island. It only came to refer to the largest island alone after the act of Union in 1707.

    Geographically The British Isles are the whole archipelago including Ireland. But of course that derives from the fact that the British (as opposed to the Irish) wrote the rules and named stuff.

    As an aside interestingly, names can of course change and quite quickly. The North Sea was usually known as The German Sea until the middle of the 18th Century. Perhaps in the future The British Isles will indeed be The Irish Isles. It does have a rather more poetic alliteration to it.
    Better than Islands of the North Atlantic, which was apparently one suggestion.

    I'd be happy with British-Irish Isles, though who knows what a Manxer would think of it.

    Wiki tells me UK Law uses the subtly different 'British Islands' to include the bits that include the UK, Channel Islands and Isle of Man. So if someone uses that one they are not including the Republic and are well set if someone gets huffy about the name.

    Edit: Another suggestion was Anglo-Celtic Isles, which I guess might be more accurate than British?
    The advantage of "Islands Of the North Atlantic" is that you can then use the initialism of IONA, which appeals, although may cause some confusion with the Island of Iona when used in speech.

    The Atlantic Archipelago is another alternative that has been proposed, but I tend simply to use "Britain and Ireland".
    "Britain and Ireland" is the house style that copy editors often impose when some idiot author has scribbled "British Isles".

    No way is Canvey in the Atlantic. Anyway "Britain" is a political term.

    If there's one issue that shows up how some people "think" so awfully badly, bringing in irrelevant rubbish or trying to defend whatever codswallop they thought in the first place - well there are thousands of such issues, but how to use the word "Britain" in the current epoch is one of them.

    The Romans have nothing to do with this. Neither does geography. Orkney and the Isle of Wight are definitely in Britain.

    It's really easy. Britain includes Great Britain - which is to say, England, Scotland and Wales - and Northern Ireland.

    Northern Ireland is in Britain. Perhaps soon it won't be, but it is now.

    See for example "Britain 1998: an Official Handbook" published by the British government, ISBN 0116209410. They define the word "Britain" as I do.

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    kle4 said:

    If there was a smidgeon of doubt, Rishi only interested in talking to one section of the NI population.







    British isles? Or is that not correct?
    Britain is one of the islands, Ireland the other (major) one, so you could as well say the Irish Isles as the British Isles.

    But, anyway, the Good Friday Agreement allows everyone in Northern Ireland to identify as British, and it's pretty safe to assume that any members of the Conservative and Unionist Party will identify as British, though they may think of themselves as Irish as well.

    The criticism is bizarre. How many Irish Republicans would you expect to find as members of the Tory party?
    Britannia was the name the Romans originally gave to the whole of the British Isles including Ireland. Nor did the Romans ever refer to just the largest island as Britannia. They transferred the name to the specific province they ruled in the southern half of that largest island. It only came to refer to the largest island alone after the act of Union in 1707.

    Geographically The British Isles are the whole archipelago including Ireland. But of course that derives from the fact that the British (as opposed to the Irish) wrote the rules and named stuff.

    As an aside interestingly, names can of course change and quite quickly. The North Sea was usually known as The German Sea until the middle of the 18th Century. Perhaps in the future The British Isles will indeed be The Irish Isles. It does have a rather more poetic alliteration to it.
    Better than Islands of the North Atlantic, which was apparently one suggestion.

    I'd be happy with British-Irish Isles, though who knows what a Manxer would think of it.

    Wiki tells me UK Law uses the subtly different 'British Islands' to include the bits that include the UK, Channel Islands and Isle of Man. So if someone uses that one they are not including the Republic and are well set if someone gets huffy about the name.

    Edit: Another suggestion was Anglo-Celtic Isles, which I guess might be more accurate than British?
    The advantage of "Islands Of the North Atlantic" is that you can then use the initialism of IONA, which appeals, although may cause some confusion with the Island of Iona when used in speech.

    The Atlantic Archipelago is another alternative that has been proposed, but I tend simply to use "Britain and Ireland".
    Bloody terrible idea. North Atlantic goes all the way to the equator so that's everything from iceland to the canaries and cape verde, and west to bermuda.
    The Atlantic is in general oceanographic terms normally split into three, South Atlantic, Tropical Atlantic and North Atlantic.

    But anyway, I didn't say that IONA was a perfect option.
    Isles of Britain and Ireland is the current term in some circles.
    What crap.

    British Isles DNE UK of Great Britain and NI
    North America DNE USA
    Europe DNE European Union

    Cf also British, American, and possibly too, European.
    I AM talking about the bits of isolated land not including Heligoland, the Canaries, and the Faeroes. Not the UK.
    Me too.
    They’re called the British Isles.
    Not accurate or acceptable. Ireland hasn't been part of Britain, ever. UK, some bits, different times, yes,. but not the same thing.
    Yes and Canada is not “American” but is part of North America.
    Canada is in America.

    The idea that Canada is not in America is held in America itself (which has a population of about 1.0 billion) only by a proportion of the native speakers of the region's second most widely spoken language, English. Nobody speaking Spanish or Portuguese would say that Brazil, Canada, Colombia, etc., were located somewhere outside of America.

    I am sure that some of said English speakers in America don't know how the word "America" is used by the majority of Americans. That's OK. There is ignorance in this world. But what annoys the crap out of me is when they find out and then Trumpianistically insist on continuing with their ignorant usage.
  • Following discussions at work, it looks like we will going full WFH starting October until next Aprilish.

    The energy cap doesn't apply to businesses, and well I suspect we won't be the only ones going full WFH.

    Latest projections are we could pay each employee several thousands over the winter to WFH and it will still be cheaper than heating the office.

    That's another blow to city centres and businesses who really on commuters/workers.

    Conversely, there will probably be WFH people who want to get back to the office this winter so the company pays for their heating.
    Indeed, but we're in the fortunate position of being able subsidise WFH employees and their utility bills.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 48,985

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    kle4 said:

    If there was a smidgeon of doubt, Rishi only interested in talking to one section of the NI population.







    British isles? Or is that not correct?
    Britain is one of the islands, Ireland the other (major) one, so you could as well say the Irish Isles as the British Isles.

    But, anyway, the Good Friday Agreement allows everyone in Northern Ireland to identify as British, and it's pretty safe to assume that any members of the Conservative and Unionist Party will identify as British, though they may think of themselves as Irish as well.

    The criticism is bizarre. How many Irish Republicans would you expect to find as members of the Tory party?
    Britannia was the name the Romans originally gave to the whole of the British Isles including Ireland. Nor did the Romans ever refer to just the largest island as Britannia. They transferred the name to the specific province they ruled in the southern half of that largest island. It only came to refer to the largest island alone after the act of Union in 1707.

    Geographically The British Isles are the whole archipelago including Ireland. But of course that derives from the fact that the British (as opposed to the Irish) wrote the rules and named stuff.

    As an aside interestingly, names can of course change and quite quickly. The North Sea was usually known as The German Sea until the middle of the 18th Century. Perhaps in the future The British Isles will indeed be The Irish Isles. It does have a rather more poetic alliteration to it.
    Better than Islands of the North Atlantic, which was apparently one suggestion.

    I'd be happy with British-Irish Isles, though who knows what a Manxer would think of it.

    Wiki tells me UK Law uses the subtly different 'British Islands' to include the bits that include the UK, Channel Islands and Isle of Man. So if someone uses that one they are not including the Republic and are well set if someone gets huffy about the name.

    Edit: Another suggestion was Anglo-Celtic Isles, which I guess might be more accurate than British?
    The advantage of "Islands Of the North Atlantic" is that you can then use the initialism of IONA, which appeals, although may cause some confusion with the Island of Iona when used in speech.

    The Atlantic Archipelago is another alternative that has been proposed, but I tend simply to use "Britain and Ireland".
    Bloody terrible idea. North Atlantic goes all the way to the equator so that's everything from iceland to the canaries and cape verde, and west to bermuda.
    The Atlantic is in general oceanographic terms normally split into three, South Atlantic, Tropical Atlantic and North Atlantic.

    But anyway, I didn't say that IONA was a perfect option.
    Isles of Britain and Ireland is the current term in some circles.
    What crap.

    British Isles DNE UK of Great Britain and NI
    North America DNE USA
    Europe DNE European Union

    Cf also British, American, and possibly too, European.
    I AM talking about the bits of isolated land not including Heligoland, the Canaries, and the Faeroes. Not the UK.
    Me too.
    They’re called the British Isles.
    You don't need much imagination to realise that would irk the Irish.
    I don’t care.
    They can call it what they like.
    They’ve been the British Isles, or some variation of that term, since Roman Times.
    There's not much point in using a name for a place that pisses off a large number of people who live in that place, and that they will only use with scare quotes at best.

    Language changes and evolves and is contested, often for political reasons. The British Isles was used because of British dominance of the islands. Now that dominance is ended, so the name will go.
    Actually from a numerical perspective, the number of Irish is quite small.

    The geographic term British Isles seems to go back to Roman times, so your point about British dominance may not be correct.

    They are still the British Isles on Wikipedia. The alternatives are weird euphemisms.
    Quoting numerical perspectives is fraught with difficulty in this context. Before the Irish famine the 1841 census gave a population of Ireland of over 8 million, compared to a population of just over 18 and a half for England, Wales and Scotland.

    That's an 1841 ratio of about 9:4 to compare with the modern ratio of about 9.3:1
    Can you talk me through that?

    Your 1841 figures give a ratio of about 2.3:1

    UK today is 67 million next to 5 million for the Irish republic. So over 13:1
  • kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 3,401

    Following discussions at work, it looks like we will going full WFH starting October until next Aprilish.

    The energy cap doesn't apply to businesses, and well I suspect we won't be the only ones going full WFH.

    Latest projections are we could pay each employee several thousands over the winter to WFH and it will still be cheaper than heating the office.

    That's another blow to city centres and businesses who rely on commuters/workers.

    Absolutely fine if the company contributes to your home heating/electricity bill.

    I suspect a fair few unscrupulous employers will be encouraging their staff to wfh without extra pay to cover their costs, though.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 6,743
    ydoethur said:

    Following discussions at work, it looks like we will going full WFH starting October until next Aprilish.

    The energy cap doesn't apply to businesses, and well I suspect we won't be the only ones going full WFH.

    Latest projections are we could pay each employee several thousands over the winter to WFH and it will still be cheaper than heating the office.

    That's another blow to city centres and businesses who rely on commuters/workers.

    A terminal one to cafes and coffee shops, I suspect.
    Don't give up on the invisible hand, market forces, competition and the human desire to run businesses large and small.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 82,491

    kle4 said:

    ydoethur said:

    The Russian retreat continues...

    The Kyiv Independent
    @KyivIndependent
    ⚡️Russia pulls military aircraft out of Crimean airbases after recent explosions.

    The Ukrainian Defense Ministry's Main Intelligence Directorate reported that no less than 24 planes and 14 helicopters had been transferred out of airfields in Crimea.


    https://mobile.twitter.com/KyivIndependent/status/1559963717860737024

    Putin's invasion is a military disaster that will be studied for decades.

    It must be the most spectacularly counterproductive invasion of a country since the First Coalition issued the Brunswick Manifesto demanding the safety of Louis XVI and then invaded from Koblenz, uniting the French against them and leading to the extermination of the royal family.
    We tend to remember the successful invasions more than the much more numerous unsuccessful ones (the Spanish Armada being an exception). Turns out it is quite hard.

    The BBC had the latest British military assessment being a long grind for some time, but that's far from the worst outcome to put it mildly.
    The number of nations that start a war, and then lose is impressive. When was the last time that someone managed to start a war and then win?
    USA in Iraq, technically? Russia in Georgia?

    Actual wars of conquest are pretty rare now of course.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 11,183

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    kle4 said:

    If there was a smidgeon of doubt, Rishi only interested in talking to one section of the NI population.







    British isles? Or is that not correct?
    Britain is one of the islands, Ireland the other (major) one, so you could as well say the Irish Isles as the British Isles.

    But, anyway, the Good Friday Agreement allows everyone in Northern Ireland to identify as British, and it's pretty safe to assume that any members of the Conservative and Unionist Party will identify as British, though they may think of themselves as Irish as well.

    The criticism is bizarre. How many Irish Republicans would you expect to find as members of the Tory party?
    Britannia was the name the Romans originally gave to the whole of the British Isles including Ireland. Nor did the Romans ever refer to just the largest island as Britannia. They transferred the name to the specific province they ruled in the southern half of that largest island. It only came to refer to the largest island alone after the act of Union in 1707.

    Geographically The British Isles are the whole archipelago including Ireland. But of course that derives from the fact that the British (as opposed to the Irish) wrote the rules and named stuff.

    As an aside interestingly, names can of course change and quite quickly. The North Sea was usually known as The German Sea until the middle of the 18th Century. Perhaps in the future The British Isles will indeed be The Irish Isles. It does have a rather more poetic alliteration to it.
    Better than Islands of the North Atlantic, which was apparently one suggestion.

    I'd be happy with British-Irish Isles, though who knows what a Manxer would think of it.

    Wiki tells me UK Law uses the subtly different 'British Islands' to include the bits that include the UK, Channel Islands and Isle of Man. So if someone uses that one they are not including the Republic and are well set if someone gets huffy about the name.

    Edit: Another suggestion was Anglo-Celtic Isles, which I guess might be more accurate than British?
    The advantage of "Islands Of the North Atlantic" is that you can then use the initialism of IONA, which appeals, although may cause some confusion with the Island of Iona when used in speech.

    The Atlantic Archipelago is another alternative that has been proposed, but I tend simply to use "Britain and Ireland".
    Bloody terrible idea. North Atlantic goes all the way to the equator so that's everything from iceland to the canaries and cape verde, and west to bermuda.
    The Atlantic is in general oceanographic terms normally split into three, South Atlantic, Tropical Atlantic and North Atlantic.

    But anyway, I didn't say that IONA was a perfect option.
    Isles of Britain and Ireland is the current term in some circles.
    What crap.

    British Isles DNE UK of Great Britain and NI
    North America DNE USA
    Europe DNE European Union

    Cf also British, American, and possibly too, European.
    I AM talking about the bits of isolated land not including Heligoland, the Canaries, and the Faeroes. Not the UK.
    Me too.
    They’re called the British Isles.
    You don't need much imagination to realise that would irk the Irish.
    I don’t care.
    They can call it what they like.
    They’ve been the British Isles, or some variation of that term, since Roman Times.
    There's not much point in using a name for a place that pisses off a large number of people who live in that place, and that they will only use with scare quotes at best.

    Language changes and evolves and is contested, often for political reasons. The British Isles was used because of British dominance of the islands. Now that dominance is ended, so the name will go.
    I will bet it doesn't. They will still be called the British Isles by geographers, geologists and other sundry scientific types for a long time yet. As I said earlier things do change but I very much doubt will see any change in that naming convention within our lifetimes
    Many things are possible. It might be one of the things that the Irish reconcile themselves to if reunification of the island is achieved - the United Ireland would have to accept that a large minority was proud of a historical association with Britain.

    You really don't hear the British Isles used in the Republic. It's weirdly parochial for the British to insist that the term will still be used. We shouldn't be so ignorant of our neighbour.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 48,985
    EPG said:

    EPG said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    kle4 said:

    If there was a smidgeon of doubt, Rishi only interested in talking to one section of the NI population.







    British isles? Or is that not correct?
    Britain is one of the islands, Ireland the other (major) one, so you could as well say the Irish Isles as the British Isles.

    But, anyway, the Good Friday Agreement allows everyone in Northern Ireland to identify as British, and it's pretty safe to assume that any members of the Conservative and Unionist Party will identify as British, though they may think of themselves as Irish as well.

    The criticism is bizarre. How many Irish Republicans would you expect to find as members of the Tory party?
    Britannia was the name the Romans originally gave to the whole of the British Isles including Ireland. Nor did the Romans ever refer to just the largest island as Britannia. They transferred the name to the specific province they ruled in the southern half of that largest island. It only came to refer to the largest island alone after the act of Union in 1707.

    Geographically The British Isles are the whole archipelago including Ireland. But of course that derives from the fact that the British (as opposed to the Irish) wrote the rules and named stuff.

    As an aside interestingly, names can of course change and quite quickly. The North Sea was usually known as The German Sea until the middle of the 18th Century. Perhaps in the future The British Isles will indeed be The Irish Isles. It does have a rather more poetic alliteration to it.
    Better than Islands of the North Atlantic, which was apparently one suggestion.

    I'd be happy with British-Irish Isles, though who knows what a Manxer would think of it.

    Wiki tells me UK Law uses the subtly different 'British Islands' to include the bits that include the UK, Channel Islands and Isle of Man. So if someone uses that one they are not including the Republic and are well set if someone gets huffy about the name.

    Edit: Another suggestion was Anglo-Celtic Isles, which I guess might be more accurate than British?
    The advantage of "Islands Of the North Atlantic" is that you can then use the initialism of IONA, which appeals, although may cause some confusion with the Island of Iona when used in speech.

    The Atlantic Archipelago is another alternative that has been proposed, but I tend simply to use "Britain and Ireland".
    Bloody terrible idea. North Atlantic goes all the way to the equator so that's everything from iceland to the canaries and cape verde, and west to bermuda.
    The Atlantic is in general oceanographic terms normally split into three, South Atlantic, Tropical Atlantic and North Atlantic.

    But anyway, I didn't say that IONA was a perfect option.
    Isles of Britain and Ireland is the current term in some circles.
    What crap.

    British Isles DNE UK of Great Britain and NI
    North America DNE USA
    Europe DNE European Union

    Cf also British, American, and possibly too, European.
    I AM talking about the bits of isolated land not including Heligoland, the Canaries, and the Faeroes. Not the UK.
    Me too.
    They’re called the British Isles.
    You don't need much imagination to realise that would irk the Irish.
    I don’t care.
    They can call it what they like.
    They’ve been the British Isles, or some variation of that term, since Roman Times.
    There's not much point in using a name for a place that pisses off a large number of people who live in that place, and that they will only use with scare quotes at best.

    Language changes and evolves and is contested, often for political reasons. The British Isles was used because of British dominance of the islands. Now that dominance is ended, so the name will go.
    Actually from a numerical perspective, the number of Irish is quite small.

    The geographic term British Isles seems to go back to Roman times, so your point about British dominance may not be correct.

    They are still the British Isles on Wikipedia. The alternatives are weird euphemisms.
    Ireland is not a British island. There was actually a war about this. (You lost.)
    The outcome of that war was a Free Irish State as part of the British Empire, so if you regard it as decisive on this question then you should accept that it is a British island.
    You lost, and the outcome was that the new government got out of Britain as soon as it could. Given the history of war crimes and genocide ordered by British politicians to keep Ireland British, a gradual approach is understandable.
    Wiki - this doesn't round like British politicians trying to prosecute war crimes and genocide:

    "In the 40 years that followed the union, successive British governments grappled with the problems of governing a country which had, as Benjamin Disraeli stated in 1844, "a starving population, an absentee aristocracy, an alien established Protestant church, and in addition, the weakest executive in the world".[32] One historian calculated that, between 1801 and 1845, there had been 114 commissions and 61 special committees inquiring into the state of Ireland, and that "without exception their findings prophesied disaster; Ireland was on the verge of starvation, her population rapidly increasing, three-quarters of her labourers unemployed, housing conditions appalling and the standard of living unbelievably low".
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    dixiedean said:

    kle4 said:

    dixiedean said:

    Alistair said:

    In a victory for parental control over schools that many on here are so keen on "The Diary of Anne Frank" is banned in a Texas school district.

    https://www.jpost.com/diaspora/antisemitism/article-714895

    LOL.
    They've ended up banning the Bible.
    Banning any book challenged for whatever reason was the logical endpoint.
    Seems like it might be a bit more coordinated than it first appears though - removing all which have been challenged pending a rewriting of the guidance on how to review the challenges, so presumably some might be returned in due course.
    Yes. Who will review the challenges? How are they appointed? And paid? What are the criteria? And grounds for appeal?
    This is a minefield. I wonder if it a threat of the end of the Enlightenment?
    It will be the nutters deciding as they got elected onto scholl board positions.

    QAnon cultist and far-right agitators have identified school boards as the perfect "first step" to achieving power.

    Able to whip up moral panics and/or the positions are small and ignored enough to fall to tiny but organised groups.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 82,491

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    kle4 said:

    If there was a smidgeon of doubt, Rishi only interested in talking to one section of the NI population.







    British isles? Or is that not correct?
    Britain is one of the islands, Ireland the other (major) one, so you could as well say the Irish Isles as the British Isles.

    But, anyway, the Good Friday Agreement allows everyone in Northern Ireland to identify as British, and it's pretty safe to assume that any members of the Conservative and Unionist Party will identify as British, though they may think of themselves as Irish as well.

    The criticism is bizarre. How many Irish Republicans would you expect to find as members of the Tory party?
    Britannia was the name the Romans originally gave to the whole of the British Isles including Ireland. Nor did the Romans ever refer to just the largest island as Britannia. They transferred the name to the specific province they ruled in the southern half of that largest island. It only came to refer to the largest island alone after the act of Union in 1707.

    Geographically The British Isles are the whole archipelago including Ireland. But of course that derives from the fact that the British (as opposed to the Irish) wrote the rules and named stuff.

    As an aside interestingly, names can of course change and quite quickly. The North Sea was usually known as The German Sea until the middle of the 18th Century. Perhaps in the future The British Isles will indeed be The Irish Isles. It does have a rather more poetic alliteration to it.
    Better than Islands of the North Atlantic, which was apparently one suggestion.

    I'd be happy with British-Irish Isles, though who knows what a Manxer would think of it.

    Wiki tells me UK Law uses the subtly different 'British Islands' to include the bits that include the UK, Channel Islands and Isle of Man. So if someone uses that one they are not including the Republic and are well set if someone gets huffy about the name.

    Edit: Another suggestion was Anglo-Celtic Isles, which I guess might be more accurate than British?
    The advantage of "Islands Of the North Atlantic" is that you can then use the initialism of IONA, which appeals, although may cause some confusion with the Island of Iona when used in speech.

    The Atlantic Archipelago is another alternative that has been proposed, but I tend simply to use "Britain and Ireland".
    Bloody terrible idea. North Atlantic goes all the way to the equator so that's everything from iceland to the canaries and cape verde, and west to bermuda.
    The Atlantic is in general oceanographic terms normally split into three, South Atlantic, Tropical Atlantic and North Atlantic.

    But anyway, I didn't say that IONA was a perfect option.
    Isles of Britain and Ireland is the current term in some circles.
    What crap.

    British Isles DNE UK of Great Britain and NI
    North America DNE USA
    Europe DNE European Union

    Cf also British, American, and possibly too, European.
    I AM talking about the bits of isolated land not including Heligoland, the Canaries, and the Faeroes. Not the UK.
    Me too.
    They’re called the British Isles.
    You don't need much imagination to realise that would irk the Irish.
    I don’t care.
    They can call it what they like.
    They’ve been the British Isles, or some variation of that term, since Roman Times.
    There's not much point in using a name for a place that pisses off a large number of people who live in that place, and that they will only use with scare quotes at best.

    Language changes and evolves and is contested, often for political reasons. The British Isles was used because of British dominance of the islands. Now that dominance is ended, so the name will go.
    Actually from a numerical perspective, the number of Irish is quite small.

    The geographic term British Isles seems to go back to Roman times, so your point about British dominance may not be correct.

    They are still the British Isles on Wikipedia. The alternatives are weird euphemisms.
    Quoting numerical perspectives is fraught with difficulty in this context. Before the Irish famine the 1841 census gave a population of Ireland of over 8 million, compared to a population of just over 18 and a half for England, Wales and Scotland.

    That's an 1841 ratio of about 9:4 to compare with the modern ratio of about 9.3:1
    Can you talk me through that?

    Your 1841 figures give a ratio of about 2.3:1

    UK today is 67 million next to 5 million for the Irish republic. So over 13:1
    Have to compare Ireland with Great Britain though to match the previous example? 6.4 million to 61 million.
  • On topic, America's a mess isn't she.

    I think in the next decade it is likely the GOP steal a Presidential election then secession is the best case scenario.
  • pm215pm215 Posts: 550
    algarkirk said:


    There are two fundamental issues in RvW and successors:

    Does the constitution require that all of the USA adhere to a particular principle - the one in question.

    If yes, what is that principle and how shall it be exercised.

    I think you could add a third issue at this point: to what extent is it valid for the Supreme Court to go back and effectively re-decide points that were apparently previously settled by earlier judgements, just because the set of judges now on the court have a different set of views to the previous set? This isn't a black-and-white question: at least sometimes old decisions are so obviously wrong that they need fixing. But there is value to society and the system in the ground not being drastically shifted under peoples' feet. Personally I think the court went rather far here. My prediction is that the new conservative majority will continue to happily overrule old rulings in a way that for example Roberts is not going to be happy about.

  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 17,547

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    kle4 said:

    If there was a smidgeon of doubt, Rishi only interested in talking to one section of the NI population.







    British isles? Or is that not correct?
    Britain is one of the islands, Ireland the other (major) one, so you could as well say the Irish Isles as the British Isles.

    But, anyway, the Good Friday Agreement allows everyone in Northern Ireland to identify as British, and it's pretty safe to assume that any members of the Conservative and Unionist Party will identify as British, though they may think of themselves as Irish as well.

    The criticism is bizarre. How many Irish Republicans would you expect to find as members of the Tory party?
    Britannia was the name the Romans originally gave to the whole of the British Isles including Ireland. Nor did the Romans ever refer to just the largest island as Britannia. They transferred the name to the specific province they ruled in the southern half of that largest island. It only came to refer to the largest island alone after the act of Union in 1707.

    Geographically The British Isles are the whole archipelago including Ireland. But of course that derives from the fact that the British (as opposed to the Irish) wrote the rules and named stuff.

    As an aside interestingly, names can of course change and quite quickly. The North Sea was usually known as The German Sea until the middle of the 18th Century. Perhaps in the future The British Isles will indeed be The Irish Isles. It does have a rather more poetic alliteration to it.
    Better than Islands of the North Atlantic, which was apparently one suggestion.

    I'd be happy with British-Irish Isles, though who knows what a Manxer would think of it.

    Wiki tells me UK Law uses the subtly different 'British Islands' to include the bits that include the UK, Channel Islands and Isle of Man. So if someone uses that one they are not including the Republic and are well set if someone gets huffy about the name.

    Edit: Another suggestion was Anglo-Celtic Isles, which I guess might be more accurate than British?
    The advantage of "Islands Of the North Atlantic" is that you can then use the initialism of IONA, which appeals, although may cause some confusion with the Island of Iona when used in speech.

    The Atlantic Archipelago is another alternative that has been proposed, but I tend simply to use "Britain and Ireland".
    Bloody terrible idea. North Atlantic goes all the way to the equator so that's everything from iceland to the canaries and cape verde, and west to bermuda.
    The Atlantic is in general oceanographic terms normally split into three, South Atlantic, Tropical Atlantic and North Atlantic.

    But anyway, I didn't say that IONA was a perfect option.
    Isles of Britain and Ireland is the current term in some circles.
    What crap.

    British Isles DNE UK of Great Britain and NI
    North America DNE USA
    Europe DNE European Union

    Cf also British, American, and possibly too, European.
    I AM talking about the bits of isolated land not including Heligoland, the Canaries, and the Faeroes. Not the UK.
    Me too.
    They’re called the British Isles.
    You don't need much imagination to realise that would irk the Irish.
    I don’t care.
    They can call it what they like.
    They’ve been the British Isles, or some variation of that term, since Roman Times.
    There's not much point in using a name for a place that pisses off a large number of people who live in that place, and that they will only use with scare quotes at best.

    Language changes and evolves and is contested, often for political reasons. The British Isles was used because of British dominance of the islands. Now that dominance is ended, so the name will go.
    I will bet it doesn't. They will still be called the British Isles by geographers, geologists and other sundry scientific types for a long time yet. As I said earlier things do change but I very much doubt will see any change in that naming convention within our lifetimes
    Many things are possible. It might be one of the things that the Irish reconcile themselves to if reunification of the island is achieved - the United Ireland would have to accept that a large minority was proud of a historical association with Britain.

    You really don't hear the British Isles used in the Republic. It's weirdly parochial for the British to insist that the term will still be used. We shouldn't be so ignorant of our neighbour.
    Ireland has had to define itself against Britain. That’s entirely expected given its history.

    But it makes them the parochial ones against the entire rest of world, in this respect.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 82,491
    kyf_100 said:

    Following discussions at work, it looks like we will going full WFH starting October until next Aprilish.

    The energy cap doesn't apply to businesses, and well I suspect we won't be the only ones going full WFH.

    Latest projections are we could pay each employee several thousands over the winter to WFH and it will still be cheaper than heating the office.

    That's another blow to city centres and businesses who rely on commuters/workers.

    Absolutely fine if the company contributes to your home heating/electricity bill.

    I suspect a fair few unscrupulous employers will be encouraging their staff to wfh without extra pay to cover their costs, though.
    Undoubtedly. I expect home working to have a bit of a counter reaction if/when employers are made to contribute to various increase home working costs.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 17,547
    edited August 2022
    It is quite revealing that my insistence on “British Isles” provokes some quite odd posting about genocide and the British aristocracy.
  • kyf_100 said:

    Following discussions at work, it looks like we will going full WFH starting October until next Aprilish.

    The energy cap doesn't apply to businesses, and well I suspect we won't be the only ones going full WFH.

    Latest projections are we could pay each employee several thousands over the winter to WFH and it will still be cheaper than heating the office.

    That's another blow to city centres and businesses who rely on commuters/workers.

    Absolutely fine if the company contributes to your home heating/electricity bill.

    I suspect a fair few unscrupulous employers will be encouraging their staff to wfh without extra pay to cover their costs, though.
    Though few, if any, firms have ever contributed to the costs of commuting into the office.

    Romford to Central London is £14 a day on the train, and plenty pay more than that. Even at the new rates, that's quite a bit of heating- especially if you only do one room during the day.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 48,985
    kle4 said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    kle4 said:

    If there was a smidgeon of doubt, Rishi only interested in talking to one section of the NI population.







    British isles? Or is that not correct?
    Britain is one of the islands, Ireland the other (major) one, so you could as well say the Irish Isles as the British Isles.

    But, anyway, the Good Friday Agreement allows everyone in Northern Ireland to identify as British, and it's pretty safe to assume that any members of the Conservative and Unionist Party will identify as British, though they may think of themselves as Irish as well.

    The criticism is bizarre. How many Irish Republicans would you expect to find as members of the Tory party?
    Britannia was the name the Romans originally gave to the whole of the British Isles including Ireland. Nor did the Romans ever refer to just the largest island as Britannia. They transferred the name to the specific province they ruled in the southern half of that largest island. It only came to refer to the largest island alone after the act of Union in 1707.

    Geographically The British Isles are the whole archipelago including Ireland. But of course that derives from the fact that the British (as opposed to the Irish) wrote the rules and named stuff.

    As an aside interestingly, names can of course change and quite quickly. The North Sea was usually known as The German Sea until the middle of the 18th Century. Perhaps in the future The British Isles will indeed be The Irish Isles. It does have a rather more poetic alliteration to it.
    Better than Islands of the North Atlantic, which was apparently one suggestion.

    I'd be happy with British-Irish Isles, though who knows what a Manxer would think of it.

    Wiki tells me UK Law uses the subtly different 'British Islands' to include the bits that include the UK, Channel Islands and Isle of Man. So if someone uses that one they are not including the Republic and are well set if someone gets huffy about the name.

    Edit: Another suggestion was Anglo-Celtic Isles, which I guess might be more accurate than British?
    The advantage of "Islands Of the North Atlantic" is that you can then use the initialism of IONA, which appeals, although may cause some confusion with the Island of Iona when used in speech.

    The Atlantic Archipelago is another alternative that has been proposed, but I tend simply to use "Britain and Ireland".
    Bloody terrible idea. North Atlantic goes all the way to the equator so that's everything from iceland to the canaries and cape verde, and west to bermuda.
    The Atlantic is in general oceanographic terms normally split into three, South Atlantic, Tropical Atlantic and North Atlantic.

    But anyway, I didn't say that IONA was a perfect option.
    Isles of Britain and Ireland is the current term in some circles.
    What crap.

    British Isles DNE UK of Great Britain and NI
    North America DNE USA
    Europe DNE European Union

    Cf also British, American, and possibly too, European.
    I AM talking about the bits of isolated land not including Heligoland, the Canaries, and the Faeroes. Not the UK.
    Me too.
    They’re called the British Isles.
    You don't need much imagination to realise that would irk the Irish.
    I don’t care.
    They can call it what they like.
    They’ve been the British Isles, or some variation of that term, since Roman Times.
    There's not much point in using a name for a place that pisses off a large number of people who live in that place, and that they will only use with scare quotes at best.

    Language changes and evolves and is contested, often for political reasons. The British Isles was used because of British dominance of the islands. Now that dominance is ended, so the name will go.
    Actually from a numerical perspective, the number of Irish is quite small.

    The geographic term British Isles seems to go back to Roman times, so your point about British dominance may not be correct.

    They are still the British Isles on Wikipedia. The alternatives are weird euphemisms.
    Quoting numerical perspectives is fraught with difficulty in this context. Before the Irish famine the 1841 census gave a population of Ireland of over 8 million, compared to a population of just over 18 and a half for England, Wales and Scotland.

    That's an 1841 ratio of about 9:4 to compare with the modern ratio of about 9.3:1
    Can you talk me through that?

    Your 1841 figures give a ratio of about 2.3:1

    UK today is 67 million next to 5 million for the Irish republic. So over 13:1
    Have to compare Ireland with Great Britain though to match the previous example? 6.4 million to 61 million.
    Ok but I'm not sure it changes very much.

    And, also, NI is only 2 million so it'd be more like 7 to 65 million.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 20,376

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    kle4 said:

    If there was a smidgeon of doubt, Rishi only interested in talking to one section of the NI population.







    British isles? Or is that not correct?
    Britain is one of the islands, Ireland the other (major) one, so you could as well say the Irish Isles as the British Isles.

    But, anyway, the Good Friday Agreement allows everyone in Northern Ireland to identify as British, and it's pretty safe to assume that any members of the Conservative and Unionist Party will identify as British, though they may think of themselves as Irish as well.

    The criticism is bizarre. How many Irish Republicans would you expect to find as members of the Tory party?
    Britannia was the name the Romans originally gave to the whole of the British Isles including Ireland. Nor did the Romans ever refer to just the largest island as Britannia. They transferred the name to the specific province they ruled in the southern half of that largest island. It only came to refer to the largest island alone after the act of Union in 1707.

    Geographically The British Isles are the whole archipelago including Ireland. But of course that derives from the fact that the British (as opposed to the Irish) wrote the rules and named stuff.

    As an aside interestingly, names can of course change and quite quickly. The North Sea was usually known as The German Sea until the middle of the 18th Century. Perhaps in the future The British Isles will indeed be The Irish Isles. It does have a rather more poetic alliteration to it.
    Better than Islands of the North Atlantic, which was apparently one suggestion.

    I'd be happy with British-Irish Isles, though who knows what a Manxer would think of it.

    Wiki tells me UK Law uses the subtly different 'British Islands' to include the bits that include the UK, Channel Islands and Isle of Man. So if someone uses that one they are not including the Republic and are well set if someone gets huffy about the name.

    Edit: Another suggestion was Anglo-Celtic Isles, which I guess might be more accurate than British?
    The advantage of "Islands Of the North Atlantic" is that you can then use the initialism of IONA, which appeals, although may cause some confusion with the Island of Iona when used in speech.

    The Atlantic Archipelago is another alternative that has been proposed, but I tend simply to use "Britain and Ireland".
    Bloody terrible idea. North Atlantic goes all the way to the equator so that's everything from iceland to the canaries and cape verde, and west to bermuda.
    The Atlantic is in general oceanographic terms normally split into three, South Atlantic, Tropical Atlantic and North Atlantic.

    But anyway, I didn't say that IONA was a perfect option.
    Isles of Britain and Ireland is the current term in some circles.
    What crap.

    British Isles DNE UK of Great Britain and NI
    North America DNE USA
    Europe DNE European Union

    Cf also British, American, and possibly too, European.
    I AM talking about the bits of isolated land not including Heligoland, the Canaries, and the Faeroes. Not the UK.
    Me too.
    They’re called the British Isles.
    You don't need much imagination to realise that would irk the Irish.
    I don’t care.
    They can call it what they like.
    They’ve been the British Isles, or some variation of that term, since Roman Times.
    There's not much point in using a name for a place that pisses off a large number of people who live in that place, and that they will only use with scare quotes at best.

    Language changes and evolves and is contested, often for political reasons. The British Isles was used because of British dominance of the islands. Now that dominance is ended, so the name will go.
    I will bet it doesn't. They will still be called the British Isles by geographers, geologists and other sundry scientific types for a long time yet. As I said earlier things do change but I very much doubt will see any change in that naming convention within our lifetimes
    Many things are possible. It might be one of the things that the Irish reconcile themselves to if reunification of the island is achieved - the United Ireland would have to accept that a large minority was proud of a historical association with Britain.

    You really don't hear the British Isles used in the Republic. It's weirdly parochial for the British to insist that the term will still be used. We shouldn't be so ignorant of our neighbour.
    Why is it weirdly parochial of one country to use its own term but not wierdly parochial of another country to use its own term. If we knew what the Irish called it, why would it follow that we also called it that?
  • rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    algarkirk said:

    If overturning RvW has the effect of properly returning the issue, as in the UK, from courts to electors this will be a massive gain.

    Yes, that's very much my opinion.

    And Kansas tells us that - in the vast majority of US states - abortion will continue to be legal and available. The exceptions will be in the Deep South and Utah,

    It is, however, worth noting that the Republican Party has got itself into a bit of a pickle here. There are a couple of US States where legal abortion is popular, and yet Republican controlled legislatures have passed laws that broadly criminalise it. While RvW existed, this was of little import; it was virtue signaling to primary voters.

    Now, though, those laws come into existence.

    Voters, for what it's worth, tend to support restrictions on abortion. But very few of them support blanket bans.

    The key question, really, is how much abortion matters.

    And Kansas tells us the answer is quite a lot. Around 200,000 independents came out to vote in the Kansas ballot proposition, even though they couldn't vote in either party's primaries. Overall turnout was up close to 90% from the 2018 primaries.

    That's a hell of a lot of people who cared enough to come out and vote.

    Now, this doesn't mean that those people will vote Democrat. But they might well come out to overturn blanket abortion bans. And that probably means voting Democrat.
    You've hit us before with your hot take that it's all a thoroughly good thing if the right of women to choose what happens to their own bodies is taken from them and handed to a bare majority in their own state. And if the only losers are a few thousand women, including victims of rape/incest, in Alabama or whatever then, y'know, state rights or something.

    It's still a rotten take - as intellectually shallow as it is callous.
    I apologize for being intellectually shallow.

    But I believe process matters. And process means democratic buy in.

    I'm sorry that abortion will be illegal in some states. It sucks for the women involved. But decisions about criminality should be made by voters.
    And if those voters decide that slavery should be legal again? Or all homosexuals should be chemically castrated? Would you still hold to that claim?

    Churchill's comment on democracy - "democracy is the worst form of Government except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time" is perfectly true but within its construction there is an explicit and valid criticism.

    Democracy is flawed and like any other system created by man it needs constant supervision and challenge. That is why we have the other arms of Government. Because pure democracy killed Socrates. Because Hitler and Trump were both democratically elected and because there are some basic principles which are even more important than democracy.

    I think you have drawn your line in the wrong place in the sand.

    And if the judges decide that slavery should be legal again ?

    Would that be okay even if the elected representatives opposed it ?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dred_Scott_v._Sandford
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 82,491
    edited August 2022

    kle4 said:

    If there was a smidgeon of doubt, Rishi only interested in talking to one section of the NI population.







    British isles? Or is that not correct?
    Britain is one of the islands, Ireland the other (major) one, so you could as well say the Irish Isles as the British Isles.

    But, anyway, the Good Friday Agreement allows everyone in Northern Ireland to identify as British, and it's pretty safe to assume that any members of the Conservative and Unionist Party will identify as British, though they may think of themselves as Irish as well.

    The criticism is bizarre. How many Irish Republicans would you expect to find as members of the Tory party?
    Britannia was the name the Romans originally gave to the whole of the British Isles including Ireland. Nor did the Romans ever refer to just the largest island as Britannia. They transferred the name to the specific province they ruled in the southern half of that largest island. It only came to refer to the largest island alone after the act of Union in 1707.

    Geographically The British Isles are the whole archipelago including Ireland. But of course that derives from the fact that the British (as opposed to the Irish) wrote the rules and named stuff.

    As an aside interestingly, names can of course change and quite quickly. The North Sea was usually known as The German Sea until the middle of the 18th Century. Perhaps in the future The British Isles will indeed be The Irish Isles. It does have a rather more poetic alliteration to it.
    Better than Islands of the North Atlantic, which was apparently one suggestion.

    I'd be happy with British-Irish Isles, though who knows what a Manxer would think of it.

    Wiki tells me UK Law uses the subtly different 'British Islands' to include the bits that include the UK, Channel Islands and Isle of Man. So if someone uses that one they are not including the Republic and are well set if someone gets huffy about the name.

    Edit: Another suggestion was Anglo-Celtic Isles, which I guess might be more accurate than British?
    Except 'Celt' is a meaningless word with no historical basis.
    Yes, but understood in the modern layman context to mean the not English/anglo bits
  • EPGEPG Posts: 5,248
    pm215 said:

    algarkirk said:


    There are two fundamental issues in RvW and successors:

    Does the constitution require that all of the USA adhere to a particular principle - the one in question.

    If yes, what is that principle and how shall it be exercised.

    I think you could add a third issue at this point: to what extent is it valid for the Supreme Court to go back and effectively re-decide points that were apparently previously settled by earlier judgements, just because the set of judges now on the court have a different set of views to the previous set? This isn't a black-and-white question: at least sometimes old decisions are so obviously wrong that they need fixing. But there is value to society and the system in the ground not being drastically shifted under peoples' feet. Personally I think the court went rather far here. My prediction is that the new conservative majority will continue to happily overrule old rulings in a way that for example Roberts is not going to be happy about.

    Really the problem with SCOTUS is that they revised precedent in a way that went against majority opinion in the country, and not just a small majority, while furthermore the relevant judges were appointed by a deeply unpopular president who remains unpopular, so you can't even claim most people voted for it back then. Yes, yes, I get that in Oxbridge priggish technicality world these aren't problems because electoral colleges and other very smart ppl stuff, but the politics of it.
  • ydoethur said:

    Sean_F said:

    ydoethur said:

    The Russian retreat continues...

    The Kyiv Independent
    @KyivIndependent
    ⚡️Russia pulls military aircraft out of Crimean airbases after recent explosions.

    The Ukrainian Defense Ministry's Main Intelligence Directorate reported that no less than 24 planes and 14 helicopters had been transferred out of airfields in Crimea.


    https://mobile.twitter.com/KyivIndependent/status/1559963717860737024

    Putin's invasion is a military disaster that will be studied for decades.

    It must be the most spectacularly counterproductive invasion of a country since the First Coalition issued the Brunswick Manifesto demanding the safety of Louis XVI and then invaded from Koblenz, uniting the French against them and leading to the extermination of the royal family.
    I've got that beat. Manius Aquilius, Governor of Asia Province, thought it an absolutely splendid idea to attack Mithridates of Pontus, despite being hugely outnumbered. He simply assumed that one Roman soldier was worth ten effeminate orientals. It ended with him having molten gold poured down his throat, in front of a cheering crowd of Ephesians.

    Then there were the Tartars, who thought it fine sport to kidnap and rape Borte, the wife of Genghis Khan. That went about as well for them as you'd expect.
    Both of those are rather spectacular, but I did say 'since.' Your examples predate 1792.
    Paraguay, 1864/5
  • EPG said:

    EPG said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    kle4 said:

    If there was a smidgeon of doubt, Rishi only interested in talking to one section of the NI population.







    British isles? Or is that not correct?
    Britain is one of the islands, Ireland the other (major) one, so you could as well say the Irish Isles as the British Isles.

    But, anyway, the Good Friday Agreement allows everyone in Northern Ireland to identify as British, and it's pretty safe to assume that any members of the Conservative and Unionist Party will identify as British, though they may think of themselves as Irish as well.

    The criticism is bizarre. How many Irish Republicans would you expect to find as members of the Tory party?
    Britannia was the name the Romans originally gave to the whole of the British Isles including Ireland. Nor did the Romans ever refer to just the largest island as Britannia. They transferred the name to the specific province they ruled in the southern half of that largest island. It only came to refer to the largest island alone after the act of Union in 1707.

    Geographically The British Isles are the whole archipelago including Ireland. But of course that derives from the fact that the British (as opposed to the Irish) wrote the rules and named stuff.

    As an aside interestingly, names can of course change and quite quickly. The North Sea was usually known as The German Sea until the middle of the 18th Century. Perhaps in the future The British Isles will indeed be The Irish Isles. It does have a rather more poetic alliteration to it.
    Better than Islands of the North Atlantic, which was apparently one suggestion.

    I'd be happy with British-Irish Isles, though who knows what a Manxer would think of it.

    Wiki tells me UK Law uses the subtly different 'British Islands' to include the bits that include the UK, Channel Islands and Isle of Man. So if someone uses that one they are not including the Republic and are well set if someone gets huffy about the name.

    Edit: Another suggestion was Anglo-Celtic Isles, which I guess might be more accurate than British?
    The advantage of "Islands Of the North Atlantic" is that you can then use the initialism of IONA, which appeals, although may cause some confusion with the Island of Iona when used in speech.

    The Atlantic Archipelago is another alternative that has been proposed, but I tend simply to use "Britain and Ireland".
    Bloody terrible idea. North Atlantic goes all the way to the equator so that's everything from iceland to the canaries and cape verde, and west to bermuda.
    The Atlantic is in general oceanographic terms normally split into three, South Atlantic, Tropical Atlantic and North Atlantic.

    But anyway, I didn't say that IONA was a perfect option.
    Isles of Britain and Ireland is the current term in some circles.
    What crap.

    British Isles DNE UK of Great Britain and NI
    North America DNE USA
    Europe DNE European Union

    Cf also British, American, and possibly too, European.
    I AM talking about the bits of isolated land not including Heligoland, the Canaries, and the Faeroes. Not the UK.
    Me too.
    They’re called the British Isles.
    You don't need much imagination to realise that would irk the Irish.
    I don’t care.
    They can call it what they like.
    They’ve been the British Isles, or some variation of that term, since Roman Times.
    There's not much point in using a name for a place that pisses off a large number of people who live in that place, and that they will only use with scare quotes at best.

    Language changes and evolves and is contested, often for political reasons. The British Isles was used because of British dominance of the islands. Now that dominance is ended, so the name will go.
    Actually from a numerical perspective, the number of Irish is quite small.

    The geographic term British Isles seems to go back to Roman times, so your point about British dominance may not be correct.

    They are still the British Isles on Wikipedia. The alternatives are weird euphemisms.
    Ireland is not a British island. There was actually a war about this. (You lost.)
    Geographically it is.

    I don’t remember fighting a war.
    Personally I have fought no wars, what about you?
    Geographically I hope you're insisting on "European Britain".

    British people who thought Ireland was British fought a war and lost.
    Europe is a continent.
    The British Isles are an archipelago
    Ireland is an island

    After that I get confused with all the UK vs Great Britain vs just Britain

    Archipelagos are generally named after the dominant Island or country within them. So the Japanese Archipelago includes all the islands of that group including those belonging to other countries.
  • EPGEPG Posts: 5,248

    It is quite revealing that my insistence on “British Isles” provokes some quite odd posting about genocide and the British aristocracy.

    What's odd is thinking that British war crimes and genocide are somehow peripheral to the question of which exact places remained British and which didn't.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 82,491

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    kle4 said:

    If there was a smidgeon of doubt, Rishi only interested in talking to one section of the NI population.







    British isles? Or is that not correct?
    Britain is one of the islands, Ireland the other (major) one, so you could as well say the Irish Isles as the British Isles.

    But, anyway, the Good Friday Agreement allows everyone in Northern Ireland to identify as British, and it's pretty safe to assume that any members of the Conservative and Unionist Party will identify as British, though they may think of themselves as Irish as well.

    The criticism is bizarre. How many Irish Republicans would you expect to find as members of the Tory party?
    Britannia was the name the Romans originally gave to the whole of the British Isles including Ireland. Nor did the Romans ever refer to just the largest island as Britannia. They transferred the name to the specific province they ruled in the southern half of that largest island. It only came to refer to the largest island alone after the act of Union in 1707.

    Geographically The British Isles are the whole archipelago including Ireland. But of course that derives from the fact that the British (as opposed to the Irish) wrote the rules and named stuff.

    As an aside interestingly, names can of course change and quite quickly. The North Sea was usually known as The German Sea until the middle of the 18th Century. Perhaps in the future The British Isles will indeed be The Irish Isles. It does have a rather more poetic alliteration to it.
    Better than Islands of the North Atlantic, which was apparently one suggestion.

    I'd be happy with British-Irish Isles, though who knows what a Manxer would think of it.

    Wiki tells me UK Law uses the subtly different 'British Islands' to include the bits that include the UK, Channel Islands and Isle of Man. So if someone uses that one they are not including the Republic and are well set if someone gets huffy about the name.

    Edit: Another suggestion was Anglo-Celtic Isles, which I guess might be more accurate than British?
    The advantage of "Islands Of the North Atlantic" is that you can then use the initialism of IONA, which appeals, although may cause some confusion with the Island of Iona when used in speech.

    The Atlantic Archipelago is another alternative that has been proposed, but I tend simply to use "Britain and Ireland".
    Bloody terrible idea. North Atlantic goes all the way to the equator so that's everything from iceland to the canaries and cape verde, and west to bermuda.
    The Atlantic is in general oceanographic terms normally split into three, South Atlantic, Tropical Atlantic and North Atlantic.

    But anyway, I didn't say that IONA was a perfect option.
    Isles of Britain and Ireland is the current term in some circles.
    What crap.

    British Isles DNE UK of Great Britain and NI
    North America DNE USA
    Europe DNE European Union

    Cf also British, American, and possibly too, European.
    I AM talking about the bits of isolated land not including Heligoland, the Canaries, and the Faeroes. Not the UK.
    Me too.
    They’re called the British Isles.
    You don't need much imagination to realise that would irk the Irish.
    I don’t care.
    They can call it what they like.
    They’ve been the British Isles, or some variation of that term, since Roman Times.
    There's not much point in using a name for a place that pisses off a large number of people who live in that place, and that they will only use with scare quotes at best.

    Language changes and evolves and is contested, often for political reasons. The British Isles was used because of British dominance of the islands. Now that dominance is ended, so the name will go.
    I will bet it doesn't. They will still be called the British Isles by geographers, geologists and other sundry scientific types for a long time yet. As I said earlier things do change but I very much doubt will see any change in that naming convention within our lifetimes
    Many things are possible. It might be one of the things that the Irish reconcile themselves to if reunification of the island is achieved - the United Ireland would have to accept that a large minority was proud of a historical association with Britain.

    You really don't hear the British Isles used in the Republic. It's weirdly parochial for the British to insist that the term will still be used. We shouldn't be so ignorant of our neighbour.
    Why is it weirdly parochial of one country to use its own term but not wierdly parochial of another country to use its own term. If we knew what the Irish called it, why would it follow that we also called it that?
    That is a very fair point. I'm comfortable with our term for these islands evolving, I've suggested British-Irish Isles, but it doesn't make any sense at all to claim its parochial for one side to insist on its own term, out of ignorance, but not the other side. It's a complete double standard.

    We don't call most countries what they call themselves in their own languages anyway, and many probably don't for us either (I suspect Scotland and Wales are the ones most undermined by that, if places do refer to Britain as England).
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 43,603

    EPG said:

    EPG said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    kle4 said:

    If there was a smidgeon of doubt, Rishi only interested in talking to one section of the NI population.







    British isles? Or is that not correct?
    Britain is one of the islands, Ireland the other (major) one, so you could as well say the Irish Isles as the British Isles.

    But, anyway, the Good Friday Agreement allows everyone in Northern Ireland to identify as British, and it's pretty safe to assume that any members of the Conservative and Unionist Party will identify as British, though they may think of themselves as Irish as well.

    The criticism is bizarre. How many Irish Republicans would you expect to find as members of the Tory party?
    Britannia was the name the Romans originally gave to the whole of the British Isles including Ireland. Nor did the Romans ever refer to just the largest island as Britannia. They transferred the name to the specific province they ruled in the southern half of that largest island. It only came to refer to the largest island alone after the act of Union in 1707.

    Geographically The British Isles are the whole archipelago including Ireland. But of course that derives from the fact that the British (as opposed to the Irish) wrote the rules and named stuff.

    As an aside interestingly, names can of course change and quite quickly. The North Sea was usually known as The German Sea until the middle of the 18th Century. Perhaps in the future The British Isles will indeed be The Irish Isles. It does have a rather more poetic alliteration to it.
    Better than Islands of the North Atlantic, which was apparently one suggestion.

    I'd be happy with British-Irish Isles, though who knows what a Manxer would think of it.

    Wiki tells me UK Law uses the subtly different 'British Islands' to include the bits that include the UK, Channel Islands and Isle of Man. So if someone uses that one they are not including the Republic and are well set if someone gets huffy about the name.

    Edit: Another suggestion was Anglo-Celtic Isles, which I guess might be more accurate than British?
    The advantage of "Islands Of the North Atlantic" is that you can then use the initialism of IONA, which appeals, although may cause some confusion with the Island of Iona when used in speech.

    The Atlantic Archipelago is another alternative that has been proposed, but I tend simply to use "Britain and Ireland".
    Bloody terrible idea. North Atlantic goes all the way to the equator so that's everything from iceland to the canaries and cape verde, and west to bermuda.
    The Atlantic is in general oceanographic terms normally split into three, South Atlantic, Tropical Atlantic and North Atlantic.

    But anyway, I didn't say that IONA was a perfect option.
    Isles of Britain and Ireland is the current term in some circles.
    What crap.

    British Isles DNE UK of Great Britain and NI
    North America DNE USA
    Europe DNE European Union

    Cf also British, American, and possibly too, European.
    I AM talking about the bits of isolated land not including Heligoland, the Canaries, and the Faeroes. Not the UK.
    Me too.
    They’re called the British Isles.
    You don't need much imagination to realise that would irk the Irish.
    I don’t care.
    They can call it what they like.
    They’ve been the British Isles, or some variation of that term, since Roman Times.
    There's not much point in using a name for a place that pisses off a large number of people who live in that place, and that they will only use with scare quotes at best.

    Language changes and evolves and is contested, often for political reasons. The British Isles was used because of British dominance of the islands. Now that dominance is ended, so the name will go.
    Actually from a numerical perspective, the number of Irish is quite small.

    The geographic term British Isles seems to go back to Roman times, so your point about British dominance may not be correct.

    They are still the British Isles on Wikipedia. The alternatives are weird euphemisms.
    Ireland is not a British island. There was actually a war about this. (You lost.)
    Geographically it is.

    I don’t remember fighting a war.
    Personally I have fought no wars, what about you?
    Geographically I hope you're insisting on "European Britain".

    British people who thought Ireland was British fought a war and lost.
    Europe is a continent.
    The British Isles are an archipelago
    Ireland is an island

    After that I get confused with all the UK vs Great Britain vs just Britain

    Archipelagos are generally named after the dominant Island or country within them. So the Japanese Archipelago includes all the islands of that group including those belonging to other countries.
    IOW is The Island and North Island is where all the ferries go. That’s all you need to know.
This discussion has been closed.