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It’s the energy cap, stupid – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,150
edited August 2022 in General
imageIt’s the energy cap, stupid – politicalbetting.com

My prediction for the popularity of Liz Truss and her government is closely tied to the where the price cap ends up this winter. If Truss sticks to her rhetoric of no handouts then there’s no floor to the government’s unpopularity.

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Comments

  • Betfair next prime minister
    1.07 Liz Truss 93%
    12 Rishi Sunak 8%

    Next Conservative leader
    1.07 Liz Truss 93%
    13 Rishi Sunak 8%
  • It is the energy cap but as a diversion, Rishi Sunak has called for sanctions against Iran. Liz Truss is our actual Foreign Secretary.
  • Liz Truss says no handouts but it would not be the first Truss policy to be "clarified" in the cold light of day.
  • vikvik Posts: 159
    FPT
    HYUFD said:

    MikeL said:

    I think Truss's margin of victory does matter in terms of her likely future removal as leader.

    ie If it's in the region of 57/43 after initial expectations of her getting 65%+ then it makes it more likely MPs will feel inclined to remove her that bit quicker.

    On that Opinium poll her margin of victory almost exactly matches IDS' in 2001. Tory MPs removed him in 2 years. Truss may be saved by the fact a general election will likely be held in Spring 2024
    Opposition parties cycle through opposition leaders a lot more frequently than governing parties, because the members (both parliamentary & ordinary) are a lot more dissatisfied about being in opposition. In addition, a sitting prime minister has a lot more resources to call upon to bolster their position within the party. And, in addition, it is a lot more awkward to change policies when being in government. So, I think the length of IDS' tenure is not necessarily a predictor to the length of Truss' tenure.

    I think Truss' margin would have to be extremely narrow (such as 51% to 49%) for it to have any impact at all on the probability of her future removal.

    Truss is certain to remain in power until the election unless, either there is some big scandal, or else the Tories' position in the polls worsens significantly from the current levels & the members feel that she is the direct cause of this polling decline (e.g. through things such as poor communication skills or choosing bad policies).
  • ClippPClippP Posts: 1,900
    I see that Greg Jackson, CEO of Octopus Energy, is very critical of OFGEN.

    https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/markets/article-11108487/Octopus-Energy-boss-Greg-Jackson-tries-defuse-Prosecco-row.html

    If what he says is true about the way OFGEN base their price on the cost of the highest source of energy, then quite clearly OFGEN is overdue for a massive clearout of its overpaid top staff.

    But then the object of the exercise, as with everything this rotten government does, is to feather the nests of the Top Tories.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,741
    edited August 2022

    Betfair next prime minister
    1.07 Liz Truss 93%
    12 Rishi Sunak 8%

    Next Conservative leader
    1.07 Liz Truss 93%
    13 Rishi Sunak 8%

    What on earth do those figures say about the Tory party, given the magnitude of the financial problems that are about to engulf so many people - and therefore the economy as a whole - and given the fact that Liz Truss is not even pretending to have any strategy to deal with them.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    I'm quite impressed by Truss, she seems to be doing the minimal amount of stupid populism required to win a Tory leadership election and no more.
  • Truss has dismissed taking Labour policy to deal with the energy crisis. But she’s going to spend the next few weeks being asked all about it. Then, as TSE says, she’ll follow it. Just as the Tories did with the windfall tax. It’s good politics by Starmer and Reeves. Which is unusual - and encouraging.
  • vik said:

    FPT

    HYUFD said:

    MikeL said:

    I think Truss's margin of victory does matter in terms of her likely future removal as leader.

    ie If it's in the region of 57/43 after initial expectations of her getting 65%+ then it makes it more likely MPs will feel inclined to remove her that bit quicker.

    On that Opinium poll her margin of victory almost exactly matches IDS' in 2001. Tory MPs removed him in 2 years. Truss may be saved by the fact a general election will likely be held in Spring 2024
    Opposition parties cycle through opposition leaders a lot more frequently than governing parties, because the members (both parliamentary & ordinary) are a lot more dissatisfied about being in opposition. In addition, a sitting prime minister has a lot more resources to call upon to bolster their position within the party. And, in addition, it is a lot more awkward to change policies when being in government. So, I think the length of IDS' tenure is not necessarily a predictor to the length of Truss' tenure.

    I think Truss' margin would have to be extremely narrow (such as 51% to 49%) for it to have any impact at all on the probability of her future removal.

    Truss is certain to remain in power until the election unless, either there is some big scandal, or else the Tories' position in the polls worsens significantly from the current levels & the members feel that she is the direct cause of this polling decline (e.g. through things such as poor communication skills or choosing bad policies).
    Yep, they’re stuck with her until the next election.

  • IcarusIcarus Posts: 993
    edited August 2022
    The Price Cap isn't a cap -it is the amount that the average bill payer will pay. By calling it a cap people are being seriously misled.

    The trouble with averages is that you always seem to be on the wrong side of the average - or perhaps those on the wrong side are more upset. The danger for Truss or perhaps Sunak (becoming very slightly more likely IMO) is that their supporters/members will be on the wrong side of the average some with bills over £10,000 let alone £5,000.

  • IcarusIcarus Posts: 993
    edited August 2022
    MikeL said:

    Surely the biggest advantage of freezing energy bills rather than giving handouts to the public to pay for higher bills is that it keeps the inflation figure much lower, in turn:

    1) Saving the Govt a huge amount of interest on index linked gilts

    2) Saving the Govt a huge amount on future inflation linked pension and benefit rises

    3) Takes at least some pressure off demand for huge pay increases (both public and private) which would otherwise also increase inflation

    It basically stops the spiral getting going in the first place.

    Finally it is also by far the best bet electorally. The public has had it drummed into them that energy prices are about to go up massively. If that now doesn't happen, Truss will get lots of credit. The public won't care less about how it will be funded.

    Quite right - so the hope is that with Starmer supporting it Truss will be daft enough to clearly rule it out as an option. Starmer and other opposition party's job will be to ensure that this is made very clear so that either she doesn't do a u-turn and is finished or does and looks stupid.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,395
    edited August 2022
    Good morning everybody!
    As somebody pointed out a day or so ago it's not only domestic users who are looking with deep concern at energy prices. Businesses, small and large, must be concerned. How long will places like Iceland be able to cope without some serious effect on profits, and therefore prices. Furthermore large numbers of shops in city centres are now air-conditioned; that is going to become increasingly expensive to maintain.
    I don't think that the government, any government, will be able to avoid some form of intervention in the energy price market.

  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172
    Icarus said:

    MikeL said:

    Surely the biggest advantage of freezing energy bills rather than giving handouts to the public to pay for higher bills is that it keeps the inflation figure much lower, in turn:

    1) Saving the Govt a huge amount of interest on index linked gilts

    2) Saving the Govt a huge amount on future inflation linked pension and benefit rises

    3) Takes at least some pressure off demand for huge pay increases (both public and private) which would otherwise also increase inflation

    It basically stops the spiral getting going in the first place.

    Finally it is also by far the best bet electorally. The public has had it drummed into them that energy prices are about to go up massively. If that now doesn't happen, Truss will get lots of credit. The public won't care less about how it will be funded.

    Quite right - so the hope is that with Starmer supporting it Truss will be daft enough to clearly rule it out as an option. Starmer and other opposition party's job will be to ensure that this is made very clear so that either she doesn't do a u-turn and is finished or does and looks stupid.
    A remarkably unpleasant and partisan post.

    So you "hope" that lots of people suffer from a policy misstep, so your party can have an electoral advantage ...
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,551

    Good morning everybody!
    As somebody pointed out a day or so ago it's not only domestic users who are looking with deep concern at energy prices. Businesses, small and large, must be concerned. How long will places like Iceland be able to cope without some serious effect on profits, and therefore prices. Furthermore large numbers of shops in city centres are now air-conditioned; that is going to become increasingly expensive to maintain.
    I don't think that the government, any government, will be able to avoid some form of intervention in the energy price market.

    Yes, the Aberdeen takeaway owner closing gives an idea how difficult it is going to be for small business.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-62466518
  • So Truss either supports Labour policy on energy pricing - or she makes people pay more. Obviously, she’ll nick the Labour policy. Labour’s job now is to ensure that when it happens voters realise this.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,304

    Good morning everybody!
    As somebody pointed out a day or so ago it's not only domestic users who are looking with deep concern at energy prices. Businesses, small and large, must be concerned. How long will places like Iceland be able to cope without some serious effect on profits, and therefore prices. Furthermore large numbers of shops in city centres are now air-conditioned; that is going to become increasingly expensive to maintain.
    I don't think that the government, any government, will be able to avoid some form of intervention in the energy price market.

    I imagine you will see lids on open freezers very soon, for a start.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,551
    MikeL said:

    Surely the biggest advantage of freezing energy bills rather than giving handouts to the public to pay for higher bills is that it keeps the inflation figure much lower, in turn:

    1) Saving the Govt a huge amount of interest on index linked gilts

    2) Saving the Govt a huge amount on future inflation linked pension and benefit rises

    3) Takes at least some pressure off demand for huge pay increases (both public and private) which would otherwise also increase inflation

    It basically stops the spiral getting going in the first place.

    Finally it is also by far the best bet electorally. The public has had it drummed into them that energy prices are about to go up massively. If that now doesn't happen, Truss will get lots of credit. The public won't care less about how it will be funded.

    Though will either mean massive bailouts for the utilities, or a cascade of them going bust.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,304

    So Truss either supports Labour policy on energy pricing - or she makes people pay more. Obviously, she’ll nick the Labour policy. Labour’s job now is to ensure that when it happens voters realise this.

    Isn't it a Lib Dem policy?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,304
    Foxy said:

    MikeL said:

    Surely the biggest advantage of freezing energy bills rather than giving handouts to the public to pay for higher bills is that it keeps the inflation figure much lower, in turn:

    1) Saving the Govt a huge amount of interest on index linked gilts

    2) Saving the Govt a huge amount on future inflation linked pension and benefit rises

    3) Takes at least some pressure off demand for huge pay increases (both public and private) which would otherwise also increase inflation

    It basically stops the spiral getting going in the first place.

    Finally it is also by far the best bet electorally. The public has had it drummed into them that energy prices are about to go up massively. If that now doesn't happen, Truss will get lots of credit. The public won't care less about how it will be funded.

    Though will either mean massive bailouts for the utilities, or a cascade of them going bust.
    So no actual downside then?

    Although I would assume Truss as a not-very-good Tory would prioritise shareholders over taxpayers.
  • Good morning everybody!
    As somebody pointed out a day or so ago it's not only domestic users who are looking with deep concern at energy prices. Businesses, small and large, must be concerned. How long will places like Iceland be able to cope without some serious effect on profits, and therefore prices. Furthermore large numbers of shops in city centres are now air-conditioned; that is going to become increasingly expensive to maintain.
    I don't think that the government, any government, will be able to avoid some form of intervention in the energy price market.

    I hope that the price crisis will drive serious investment. How many stores use florescent light tubes? How many feature open-faced fridges? Spend the money on fixtures that don't just burn money into the atmosphere. and take Sunak's super-deduction money whilst doing it.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,271

    I'm quite impressed by Truss, she seems to be doing the minimal amount of stupid populism required to win a Tory leadership election and no more.

    As far as I can see she won the contest when she established herself as the tax-cutting candidate in contrast to the Chancellor who raised taxes to their highest level in seven decades, and she was loyal to poor victimised Boris too. Everything since then has been running down the clock.
  • Betfair next prime minister
    1.07 Liz Truss 93%
    12 Rishi Sunak 8%

    Next Conservative leader
    1.07 Liz Truss 93%
    13 Rishi Sunak 8%

    Betfair next prime minister
    1.08 Liz Truss 93%
    12.5 Rishi Sunak 8%

    Next Conservative leader
    1.08 Liz Truss 93%
    13 Rishi Sunak 8%
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,551
    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    MikeL said:

    Surely the biggest advantage of freezing energy bills rather than giving handouts to the public to pay for higher bills is that it keeps the inflation figure much lower, in turn:

    1) Saving the Govt a huge amount of interest on index linked gilts

    2) Saving the Govt a huge amount on future inflation linked pension and benefit rises

    3) Takes at least some pressure off demand for huge pay increases (both public and private) which would otherwise also increase inflation

    It basically stops the spiral getting going in the first place.

    Finally it is also by far the best bet electorally. The public has had it drummed into them that energy prices are about to go up massively. If that now doesn't happen, Truss will get lots of credit. The public won't care less about how it will be funded.

    Though will either mean massive bailouts for the utilities, or a cascade of them going bust.
    So no actual downside then?

    Although I would assume Truss as a not-very-good Tory would prioritise shareholders over taxpayers.
    The downside of utilities going bust is that whether the bill is paid or not, the service stops.

    You just cannot magic up the cost difference. If the public aren't paying, someone else has to.
  • IcarusIcarus Posts: 993

    Icarus said:

    MikeL said:

    Surely the biggest advantage of freezing energy bills rather than giving handouts to the public to pay for higher bills is that it keeps the inflation figure much lower, in turn:

    1) Saving the Govt a huge amount of interest on index linked gilts

    2) Saving the Govt a huge amount on future inflation linked pension and benefit rises

    3) Takes at least some pressure off demand for huge pay increases (both public and private) which would otherwise also increase inflation

    It basically stops the spiral getting going in the first place.

    Finally it is also by far the best bet electorally. The public has had it drummed into them that energy prices are about to go up massively. If that now doesn't happen, Truss will get lots of credit. The public won't care less about how it will be funded.

    Quite right - so the hope is that with Starmer supporting it Truss will be daft enough to clearly rule it out as an option. Starmer and other opposition party's job will be to ensure that this is made very clear so that either she doesn't do a u-turn and is finished or does and looks stupid.
    A remarkably unpleasant and partisan post.

    So you "hope" that lots of people suffer from a policy misstep, so your party can have an electoral advantage ...
    Or she could come out and stop the the price rise. But don't interrupt your enemy when they are making a mistake.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    A few days ago, Mike posted that Liz Truss had just edged into FAV spot in Smarkets’ PM After Next GE market.

    Not according to William Hill. Arb time?

    Starmer 10/11
    Truss 6/5
    Sunak 12/1
    Johnson 25/1
    Rayner 33/1
    Badenoch 66/1
    Burnham 66/1
    Mordaunt 66/1
    Streeting 66/1
    Wallace 66/1
    100 bar

    Not sure why Burnham’s in there? He’s not even an MP and isn’t seeking nomination to a seat (unless @AndreaParma_82 knows different?)
  • murali_smurali_s Posts: 3,067

    So Truss either supports Labour policy on energy pricing - or she makes people pay more. Obviously, she’ll nick the Labour policy. Labour’s job now is to ensure that when it happens voters realise this.

    "We lead, you follow." That's the line Labour should be emphasising, day after day.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,271
    MikeL said:

    Surely the biggest advantage of freezing energy bills rather than giving handouts to the public to pay for higher bills is that it keeps the inflation figure much lower, in turn:

    1) Saving the Govt a huge amount of interest on index linked gilts

    2) Saving the Govt a huge amount on future inflation linked pension and benefit rises

    3) Takes at least some pressure off demand for huge pay increases (both public and private) which would otherwise also increase inflation

    It basically stops the spiral getting going in the first place.

    Finally it is also by far the best bet electorally. The public has had it drummed into them that energy prices are about to go up massively. If that now doesn't happen, Truss will get lots of credit. The public won't care less about how it will be funded.

    That all makes sense - except then the government is committing to borrowing ~£100bn extra every year to subsidise residential energy bills. And will be under pressure to provide direct subsidies to cap other prices in the economy, such as road fuel and food.

    What we need is an emergency program of investment in the supply side, to reduce our use of fossil fuels as quickly as possible. If the government is throwing £100bn at consumer subsidies then it won't be able to afford to do anything else.
  • ydoethur said:

    So Truss either supports Labour policy on energy pricing - or she makes people pay more. Obviously, she’ll nick the Labour policy. Labour’s job now is to ensure that when it happens voters realise this.

    Isn't it a Lib Dem policy?
    Only if people realise!
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,271
    edited August 2022
    Foxy said:

    Good morning everybody!
    As somebody pointed out a day or so ago it's not only domestic users who are looking with deep concern at energy prices. Businesses, small and large, must be concerned. How long will places like Iceland be able to cope without some serious effect on profits, and therefore prices. Furthermore large numbers of shops in city centres are now air-conditioned; that is going to become increasingly expensive to maintain.
    I don't think that the government, any government, will be able to avoid some form of intervention in the energy price market.

    Yes, the Aberdeen takeaway owner closing gives an idea how difficult it is going to be for small business.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-62466518
    Prices at our local Indian takeaway are up 30% on 2019. So in order to use government subsidy to prevent high gas prices feeding into high general inflation, a government would have to subsidise business use of energy too, otherwise the energy inflation finds its way into the economy indirectly anyway.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    - “… there’s no floor to the government’s unpopularity.“

    I think this is correct. While unlikely, I do think that a Canada-scenario is feasible.

    I note that Martin Baxter’s “Low Seats” prediction for the Tories is currently 102. As the shit hits the fan that number could fall.

    This video of a Bury North focus group posted by @rottenborough on the previous thread is essential viewing for Conservatives. These are their 2019 voters. They are in pain. Deep pain. One hates to think what they are going to say in 12 months time.

    https://twitter.com/TheNewsDesk/status/1557809256308641793

  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146

    ydoethur said:

    So Truss either supports Labour policy on energy pricing - or she makes people pay more. Obviously, she’ll nick the Labour policy. Labour’s job now is to ensure that when it happens voters realise this.

    Isn't it a Lib Dem policy?
    Only if people realise!
    If you stopped ten people in the street and asked them to name one Labour Party policy, how many would manage it? One or two?
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172
    Icarus said:

    Icarus said:

    MikeL said:

    Surely the biggest advantage of freezing energy bills rather than giving handouts to the public to pay for higher bills is that it keeps the inflation figure much lower, in turn:

    1) Saving the Govt a huge amount of interest on index linked gilts

    2) Saving the Govt a huge amount on future inflation linked pension and benefit rises

    3) Takes at least some pressure off demand for huge pay increases (both public and private) which would otherwise also increase inflation

    It basically stops the spiral getting going in the first place.

    Finally it is also by far the best bet electorally. The public has had it drummed into them that energy prices are about to go up massively. If that now doesn't happen, Truss will get lots of credit. The public won't care less about how it will be funded.

    Quite right - so the hope is that with Starmer supporting it Truss will be daft enough to clearly rule it out as an option. Starmer and other opposition party's job will be to ensure that this is made very clear so that either she doesn't do a u-turn and is finished or does and looks stupid.
    A remarkably unpleasant and partisan post.

    So you "hope" that lots of people suffer from a policy misstep, so your party can have an electoral advantage ...
    Or she could come out and stop the the price rise. But don't interrupt your enemy when they are making a mistake.
    Ah, the LibDems ...

    I periodically need reminding why I should never vote for them again.

    Pb.com does serve that useful purpose.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    Foxy said:

    Good morning everybody!
    As somebody pointed out a day or so ago it's not only domestic users who are looking with deep concern at energy prices. Businesses, small and large, must be concerned. How long will places like Iceland be able to cope without some serious effect on profits, and therefore prices. Furthermore large numbers of shops in city centres are now air-conditioned; that is going to become increasingly expensive to maintain.
    I don't think that the government, any government, will be able to avoid some form of intervention in the energy price market.

    Yes, the Aberdeen takeaway owner closing gives an idea how difficult it is going to be for small business.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-62466518
    This is going to feed into the unemployment rates very quickly.

  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,087

    MikeL said:

    Surely the biggest advantage of freezing energy bills rather than giving handouts to the public to pay for higher bills is that it keeps the inflation figure much lower, in turn:

    1) Saving the Govt a huge amount of interest on index linked gilts

    2) Saving the Govt a huge amount on future inflation linked pension and benefit rises

    3) Takes at least some pressure off demand for huge pay increases (both public and private) which would otherwise also increase inflation

    It basically stops the spiral getting going in the first place.

    Finally it is also by far the best bet electorally. The public has had it drummed into them that energy prices are about to go up massively. If that now doesn't happen, Truss will get lots of credit. The public won't care less about how it will be funded.

    That all makes sense - except then the government is committing to borrowing ~£100bn extra every year to subsidise residential energy bills. And will be under pressure to provide direct subsidies to cap other prices in the economy, such as road fuel and food.

    What we need is an emergency program of investment in the supply side, to reduce our use of fossil fuels as quickly as possible. If the government is throwing £100bn at consumer subsidies then it won't be able to afford to do anything else.
    The govt needs to join with the met office and "solve" the wind, solar, battery, nuclear equation to provide 40 GW of always on power for the UK.
    Then implement it. Simple.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,496
    edited August 2022
    German regulator warns of gas rationing and loss of industry:

    https://www.ft.com/content/ca215782-a3ba-4a85-997d-197769275a50

    Müller also warned that the longer-term cost of ending Germany’s dependence on Russia would be a “very high gas price” that could have big consequences for business.

    “Some production could move away from Germany because gas has become too expensive,” he said. “And that’s a difficult thing to happen.”

  • ydoethur said:

    So Truss either supports Labour policy on energy pricing - or she makes people pay more. Obviously, she’ll nick the Labour policy. Labour’s job now is to ensure that when it happens voters realise this.

    Isn't it a Lib Dem policy?
    Only if people realise!
    If you stopped ten people in the street and asked them to name one Labour Party policy, how many would manage it? One or two?

    If that. Hence my post further down the thread.

  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,304
    Pulpstar said:

    MikeL said:

    Surely the biggest advantage of freezing energy bills rather than giving handouts to the public to pay for higher bills is that it keeps the inflation figure much lower, in turn:

    1) Saving the Govt a huge amount of interest on index linked gilts

    2) Saving the Govt a huge amount on future inflation linked pension and benefit rises

    3) Takes at least some pressure off demand for huge pay increases (both public and private) which would otherwise also increase inflation

    It basically stops the spiral getting going in the first place.

    Finally it is also by far the best bet electorally. The public has had it drummed into them that energy prices are about to go up massively. If that now doesn't happen, Truss will get lots of credit. The public won't care less about how it will be funded.

    That all makes sense - except then the government is committing to borrowing ~£100bn extra every year to subsidise residential energy bills. And will be under pressure to provide direct subsidies to cap other prices in the economy, such as road fuel and food.

    What we need is an emergency program of investment in the supply side, to reduce our use of fossil fuels as quickly as possible. If the government is throwing £100bn at consumer subsidies then it won't be able to afford to do anything else.
    The govt needs to join with the met office and "solve" the wind, solar, battery, nuclear equation to provide 40 GW of always on power for the UK.
    Then implement it. Simple.
    Well, that's easy. Have Parliament meet by Zoom, with each MP next to a wind farm.

    The resulting hot air will run them at 150% of nominal capacity 24/7.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,509

    German regulator warns of gas rationing and loss of industry:

    https://www.ft.com/content/ca215782-a3ba-4a85-997d-197769275a50

    Müller also warned that the longer-term cost of ending Germany’s dependence on Russia would be a “very high gas price” that could have big consequences for business.

    “Some production could move away from Germany because gas has become too expensive,” he said. “And that’s a difficult thing to happen.”

    What Germany needs, is a huge amount of nuclear base load for all that heavy industry.
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,273
    It’s good politics from Labour . They need to frame Truss as on the side of the energy companies .
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,331
    edited August 2022

    - “… there’s no floor to the government’s unpopularity.“

    I think this is correct. While unlikely, I do think that a Canada-scenario is feasible.

    I note that Martin Baxter’s “Low Seats” prediction for the Tories is currently 102. As the shit hits the fan that number could fall.

    This video of a Bury North focus group posted by @rottenborough on the previous thread is essential viewing for Conservatives. These are their 2019 voters. They are in pain. Deep pain. One hates to think what they are going to say in 12 months time.

    https://twitter.com/TheNewsDesk/status/1557809256308641793

    Interesting that 7 of the 9 Tory 2019 voters in that focus group say they currently intend to vote Labour.

    I guess if Starmer wasn't a dud (a meme you repeat on here ad nauseam) it would have been 9 of 9.
  • Interesting nugget on the Opinium polling from Peston - “support for Truss mostly comes from the older end of the Tory party, as she has a 40 point lead among those aged over 65. Among the under 50s, she is 8 points behind Sunak”.

    More even than her predecessors Truss will have to be laser-like in looking after the interests of the Tories' elderly client vote.
  • - “… there’s no floor to the government’s unpopularity.“

    I think this is correct. While unlikely, I do think that a Canada-scenario is feasible.

    I note that Martin Baxter’s “Low Seats” prediction for the Tories is currently 102. As the shit hits the fan that number could fall.

    This video of a Bury North focus group posted by @rottenborough on the previous thread is essential viewing for Conservatives. These are their 2019 voters. They are in pain. Deep pain. One hates to think what they are going to say in 12 months time.

    https://twitter.com/TheNewsDesk/status/1557809256308641793

    The final piece in the Canada jigsaw would be Farage chipping away at Conservative support on the right.

    Up to now, he has pulled his pinches when it counts. But...
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,808

    Interesting nugget on the Opinium polling from Peston - “support for Truss mostly comes from the older end of the Tory party, as she has a 40 point lead among those aged over 65. Among the under 50s, she is 8 points behind Sunak”.

    More even than her predecessors Truss will have to be laser-like in looking after the interests of the Tories' elderly client vote.

    Probably that the over 50s can equate her to the second coming of Maggie wheras anyone under 50 will not have been old enough to have lived as an adult under Thatcher
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,746
    Good morning, everyone.

    Mr. Sandpit, good job Germany didn't do something really stupid like close a load of nuclear reactors because of something that happened in Japan due to an earthquake and tsunami, right?

    The question is: was Merkel acting in the Russian interest, or just genuinely stupid when she made that call?

    And now they're hooked on Russian gas.

    To be fair, the West generally has made some bad calls (including with China) but this was especially foolish and unnecessary.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,605
    It will be interesting to see what Labour do in Truss’ honeymoon period. It’s all about planting the seeds for later. In addition to the economy would go on trust. Truss clearly changes her mind a lot,

    You can’t trust Liz.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,331
    Meanwhile, if the Mail is correct (I know, I know), Jerry Sadowitz's Edinburgh show attracted complaints because he got his penis out on stage, and engaged in racial slurs about Sunak. So it was cancelled. Honestly, these snowflakes. What's wrong with a bit of willy-waving and racism, eh?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,509

    Meanwhile, if the Mail is correct (I know, I know), Jerry Sadowitz's Edinburgh show attracted complaints because he got his penis out on stage, and engaged in racial slurs about Sunak. So it was cancelled. Honestly, these snowflakes. What's wrong with a bit of willy-waving and racism, eh?

    He’s Jerry Sadowitz. As with Frankie Boyle, if you’re buying a ticket with his name on it, you know what you’re letting yourself in for.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,395

    - “… there’s no floor to the government’s unpopularity.“

    I think this is correct. While unlikely, I do think that a Canada-scenario is feasible.

    I note that Martin Baxter’s “Low Seats” prediction for the Tories is currently 102. As the shit hits the fan that number could fall.

    This video of a Bury North focus group posted by @rottenborough on the previous thread is essential viewing for Conservatives. These are their 2019 voters. They are in pain. Deep pain. One hates to think what they are going to say in 12 months time.

    https://twitter.com/TheNewsDesk/status/1557809256308641793

    The final piece in the Canada jigsaw would be Farage chipping away at Conservative support on the right.

    Up to now, he has pulled his pinches when it counts. But...
    I don't, very sadly, get around much these days. But I've never met anyone who told me they were going to vote for Farage or were even considering it!
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,395

    Good morning, everyone.

    Mr. Sandpit, good job Germany didn't do something really stupid like close a load of nuclear reactors because of something that happened in Japan due to an earthquake and tsunami, right?

    The question is: was Merkel acting in the Russian interest, or just genuinely stupid when she made that call?

    And now they're hooked on Russian gas.

    To be fair, the West generally has made some bad calls (including with China) but this was especially foolish and unnecessary.

    Wonderful thing, hindsight.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,746
    Oh, and I see Manchester United are not doing terribly well. Must admit, I backed Brentford but didn't expect that score.

    Weather forecast here a bit worse today, slightly better tomorrow. I am very looking forward to Tuesday. Current strategy of staying up a bit later, than 1-2 hours listening to stuff, and then trying to sleep is working relatively well.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,970
    Fuck it, just go to Bangkok for the winter
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,755
    ClippP said:

    I see that Greg Jackson, CEO of Octopus Energy, is very critical of OFGEN.

    https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/markets/article-11108487/Octopus-Energy-boss-Greg-Jackson-tries-defuse-Prosecco-row.html

    If what he says is true about the way OFGEN base their price on the cost of the highest source of energy, then quite clearly OFGEN is overdue for a massive clearout of its overpaid top staff.

    But then the object of the exercise, as with everything this rotten government does, is to feather the nests of the Top Tories.

    But surely that is because it is a cap. A cap by definition must be fixed by the highest rate. It should not stop people selling other electricity, such as solar on these sunny days or wind on windy ones more cheaply. What seems to have happened is that, like Universities with the fees, the maximum rate has become the only rate. It is evidence of a very poorly regulated market but the answer must be that the grid tries to buy electricity below the price of the cap when it can.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,331
    Sandpit said:

    Meanwhile, if the Mail is correct (I know, I know), Jerry Sadowitz's Edinburgh show attracted complaints because he got his penis out on stage, and engaged in racial slurs about Sunak. So it was cancelled. Honestly, these snowflakes. What's wrong with a bit of willy-waving and racism, eh?

    He’s Jerry Sadowitz. As with Frankie Boyle, if you’re buying a ticket with his name on it, you know what you’re letting yourself in for.
    I'm not in favour of cancelling. But again, if the Mail is accurate:

    He called Rishi Sunak a 'p***'; said the economy was awful because it is run by 'blacks and women'. He got his penis out to a woman in the front row.'

    He's treading a fine line, surely?
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,605
    My son(14) has asked for a Nigel Farage cameo video for his birthday, What is the responsible parent to do?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,970

    Meanwhile, if the Mail is correct (I know, I know), Jerry Sadowitz's Edinburgh show attracted complaints because he got his penis out on stage, and engaged in racial slurs about Sunak. So it was cancelled. Honestly, these snowflakes. What's wrong with a bit of willy-waving and racism, eh?

    Yes, nudity is unheard of on the Fringe
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,909
    edited August 2022

    Good morning, everyone.

    Mr. Sandpit, good job Germany didn't do something really stupid like close a load of nuclear reactors because of something that happened in Japan due to an earthquake and tsunami, right?

    The question is: was Merkel acting in the Russian interest, or just genuinely stupid when she made that call?

    And now they're hooked on Russian gas.

    To be fair, the West generally has made some bad calls (including with China) but this was especially foolish and unnecessary.

    Wonderful thing, hindsight.
    Na, it was an overreaction. Unless there have been tsunamis in Germany that I haven't heard of.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,331
    Jonathan said:

    My son(14) has asked for a Nigel Farage cameo video for his birthday, What is the responsible parent to do?

    Disown your son? Sorry.
  • Interesting nugget on the Opinium polling from Peston - “support for Truss mostly comes from the older end of the Tory party, as she has a 40 point lead among those aged over 65. Among the under 50s, she is 8 points behind Sunak”.

    More even than her predecessors Truss will have to be laser-like in looking after the interests of the Tories' elderly client vote.

    Probably that the over 50s can equate her to the second coming of Maggie wheras anyone under 50 will not have been old enough to have lived as an adult under Thatcher
    Liz Truss is no Maggie Thatcher.

    My hunch: younger Conservatives are more likely to mix with non-Tories, more likely to have done canvassing for the local elections, more likely to have picked up that the general public generally hate Boris.

    Older Conservatives with generally smaller networks may not have noticed this, in which case "Boris was robbed" makes sense and Boris in a dress appeals a lot.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,746
    King Cole, no hindsight required. I said at the time it was a bloody stupid decision. So did many others.

    The problem in Japan was earthquake + tsunami. Germany is not renowned for tsunamis. The change was deranged, unless one takes the view she was acting more for Russia than Germany (not my opinion - I think she was a damned fool, tying her country to Russia for reasons that were stupid rather than treacherous).
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,395
    Leon said:

    Fuck it, just go to Bangkok for the winter

    If only!
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,970

    Leon said:

    Fuck it, just go to Bangkok for the winter

    If only!
    We can go together. I’ll bring the sex toys
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,658

    - “… there’s no floor to the government’s unpopularity.“

    I think this is correct. While unlikely, I do think that a Canada-scenario is feasible.

    I note that Martin Baxter’s “Low Seats” prediction for the Tories is currently 102. As the shit hits the fan that number could fall.

    This video of a Bury North focus group posted by @rottenborough on the previous thread is essential viewing for Conservatives. These are their 2019 voters. They are in pain. Deep pain. One hates to think what they are going to say in 12 months time.

    https://twitter.com/TheNewsDesk/status/1557809256308641793

    Bury North is Labour's top target seat in the UK, if they can't even win there they would make no progress at all. Cost of living and inflation would also still be a problem for any incoming Labour government until the Russian and Ukraine war is over and sanctions have ended and energy supplies been increased
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,623
    Icarus said:

    The Price Cap isn't a cap -it is the amount that the average bill payer will pay. By calling it a cap people are being seriously misled.

    The trouble with averages is that you always seem to be on the wrong side of the average - or perhaps those on the wrong side are more upset. The danger for Truss or perhaps Sunak (becoming very slightly more likely IMO) is that their supporters/members will be on the wrong side of the average some with bills over £10,000 let alone £5,000.

    It's a cap on the unit price but, yes, it is seriously misleading.

    I wish they would treat us like adults and publish the per kWh cap prices for electricity and gas. As it is those are quite hard to find.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,970
    Jonathan said:

    It will be interesting to see what Labour do in Truss’ honeymoon period. It’s all about planting the seeds for later. In addition to the economy would go on trust. Truss clearly changes her mind a lot,

    You can’t trust Liz.

    But you can truss Liz. Or so I’ve heard
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,331

    Sandpit said:

    Meanwhile, if the Mail is correct (I know, I know), Jerry Sadowitz's Edinburgh show attracted complaints because he got his penis out on stage, and engaged in racial slurs about Sunak. So it was cancelled. Honestly, these snowflakes. What's wrong with a bit of willy-waving and racism, eh?

    He’s Jerry Sadowitz. As with Frankie Boyle, if you’re buying a ticket with his name on it, you know what you’re letting yourself in for.
    I'm not in favour of cancelling. But again, if the Mail is accurate:

    He called Rishi Sunak a 'p***'; said the economy was awful because it is run by 'blacks and women'. He got his penis out to a woman in the front row.'

    He's treading a fine line, surely?

    Sounds like late evening on PB.

    Not just late evening. Leon is present as we write.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,271
    edited August 2022
    Jonathan said:

    My son(14) has asked for a Nigel Farage cameo video for his birthday, What is the responsible parent to do?

    It's touching that your son has identified precisely the request that would most hurt you. It shows a degree of emotional insight missing from many of that age.

    I'd buy him this and tell him that it's no laughing matter.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,605

    Jonathan said:

    My son(14) has asked for a Nigel Farage cameo video for his birthday, What is the responsible parent to do?

    It's touching that your son has identified precisely the request that would most hurt you. It shows a degree of emotional insight missing from many of that age.

    I'd buy him this and tell him that it's no laughing matter.
    I think it’s a sophisticated way of framing the expensive Lego we on the list.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146

    - “… there’s no floor to the government’s unpopularity.“

    I think this is correct. While unlikely, I do think that a Canada-scenario is feasible.

    I note that Martin Baxter’s “Low Seats” prediction for the Tories is currently 102. As the shit hits the fan that number could fall.

    This video of a Bury North focus group posted by @rottenborough on the previous thread is essential viewing for Conservatives. These are their 2019 voters. They are in pain. Deep pain. One hates to think what they are going to say in 12 months time.

    https://twitter.com/TheNewsDesk/status/1557809256308641793

    The final piece in the Canada jigsaw would be Farage chipping away at Conservative support on the right.

    Up to now, he has pulled his pinches when it counts. But...
    Like all opportunists, he recognises an opportunity when he sees one.

    One heck of an opportunity is about to be presented on a plate to the far-right. Farage’s latest vehicle is in by far the best position to mop up that type of voter.

    I finally got round to reading that Spectator article Mike recommended yesterday. Jeepers creepers! You don’t usually see that kind of stuff in the Spectator! Pulls no punches. This is a party that is ripe for shedding voters left, centre… and right.

    In those final fateful moments, you can observe highly intelligent, highly trained professionals making error after error, gradually dooming them and their passengers. Despite the ringing alarms of the onboard systems, they lose sight of what they are doing or how to avoid the impending doom. They pull the joystick instead of releasing it, they shut down the working engine instead of the failing one, or sometimes the two pilots pull in different directions, cancelling each other out. Eventually, they hit the Point of No Return and, shortly after, the ground.

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-crisis-at-the-heart-of-the-modern-conservative-party

  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,551

    Sandpit said:

    Meanwhile, if the Mail is correct (I know, I know), Jerry Sadowitz's Edinburgh show attracted complaints because he got his penis out on stage, and engaged in racial slurs about Sunak. So it was cancelled. Honestly, these snowflakes. What's wrong with a bit of willy-waving and racism, eh?

    He’s Jerry Sadowitz. As with Frankie Boyle, if you’re buying a ticket with his name on it, you know what you’re letting yourself in for.
    I'm not in favour of cancelling. But again, if the Mail is accurate:

    He called Rishi Sunak a 'p***'; said the economy was awful because it is run by 'blacks and women'. He got his penis out to a woman in the front row.'

    He's treading a fine line, surely?
    Alf Garnet without the subtlety.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,395

    Interesting nugget on the Opinium polling from Peston - “support for Truss mostly comes from the older end of the Tory party, as she has a 40 point lead among those aged over 65. Among the under 50s, she is 8 points behind Sunak”.

    More even than her predecessors Truss will have to be laser-like in looking after the interests of the Tories' elderly client vote.

    Probably that the over 50s can equate her to the second coming of Maggie wheras anyone under 50 will not have been old enough to have lived as an adult under Thatcher
    Liz Truss is no Maggie Thatcher.

    My hunch: younger Conservatives are more likely to mix with non-Tories, more likely to have done canvassing for the local elections, more likely to have picked up that the general public generally hate Boris.

    Older Conservatives with generally smaller networks may not have noticed this, in which case "Boris was robbed" makes sense and Boris in a dress appeals a lot.
    Dreadful thought for a Sunday morning! I know we've speculated about the lady's preferences but that is really over the top.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,509

    Sandpit said:

    Meanwhile, if the Mail is correct (I know, I know), Jerry Sadowitz's Edinburgh show attracted complaints because he got his penis out on stage, and engaged in racial slurs about Sunak. So it was cancelled. Honestly, these snowflakes. What's wrong with a bit of willy-waving and racism, eh?

    He’s Jerry Sadowitz. As with Frankie Boyle, if you’re buying a ticket with his name on it, you know what you’re letting yourself in for.
    I'm not in favour of cancelling. But again, if the Mail is accurate:

    He called Rishi Sunak a 'p***'; said the economy was awful because it is run by 'blacks and women'. He got his penis out to a woman in the front row.'

    He's treading a fine line, surely?
    Forgive my nervousness at believing tabloid reports of controversial comedy club acts, devoid of the context and nuance that would have been present at the venue for the live audience.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,692

    Good morning, everyone.

    Mr. Sandpit, good job Germany didn't do something really stupid like close a load of nuclear reactors because of something that happened in Japan due to an earthquake and tsunami, right?

    The question is: was Merkel acting in the Russian interest, or just genuinely stupid when she made that call?

    And now they're hooked on Russian gas.

    To be fair, the West generally has made some bad calls (including with China) but this was especially foolish and unnecessary.

    Wonderful thing, hindsight.
    Easily foreseeable. Just plain stupid.

  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,623
    I'm wondering if @MaxPB and @Morris_Dancer etc. still want to see the energy price cap abolished?
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    Saturday: the Herd are all behind Jerry Sadowitz.

    Sunday: the Herd go squirrel spotting.

    PB Tories don’t know their arse from their elbow.

    And neither do real Tories. Liz Truss on Twitter (not sure if the real one or a parody) is championing freedom of speech. I jest you not. The lack of self awareness is stunning.

  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,623
    O/T Our neighbour's son-in-law help run his parents big arable farm in Dorset: They have just finished their largest grain harvest ever. So much crop that have had to temporarily store some on the ground in the farmyard while they wait for grain lorries to come and collect it. No drying costs either.

    Somebody's having a good year.

  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,970

    Meanwhile, if the Mail is correct (I know, I know), Jerry Sadowitz's Edinburgh show attracted complaints because he got his penis out on stage, and engaged in racial slurs about Sunak. So it was cancelled. Honestly, these snowflakes. What's wrong with a bit of willy-waving and racism, eh?

    I let this pass, but in fact, NO

    Because: what actually is wrong with a bit of willy waving and racism? How have we become so pitifully anxious that this unnerves us?

    It’s a penis. It’s part of the human anatomy. Unless Jerry Sadowitz is forcing it down your throat, it is utterly harmless. Indeed a detumescent penis is a forlorn and unthreatening thing, like the buttock of a pensioner. Was someone really so scandalised by it they fainted and complained?

    As for calling the chancellor a p*ki, that’s rude and probably racist BUT IT’S JUST A WORD. he’s a billionaire chancellor. He can probably cope. My god

    More to the point, this is the Fringe. It’s meant to be fringey and edgy, but that’s all gone, so now it will become another sanitised woke-fest and comics will self censor and the grey illiberal lefties win again

    It’s dreadful. The whole woke moralising shit is dreadful. We are censoring ourselves to cultural oblivion. We are like the prim victorians but without the empire, the confidence and the amazing engineering. We are just prim, and dull
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146

    O/T Our neighbour's son-in-law help run his parents big arable farm in Dorset: They have just finished their largest grain harvest ever. So much crop that have had to temporarily store some on the ground in the farmyard while they wait for grain lorries to come and collect it. No drying costs either.

    Somebody's having a good year.

    Some people are getting rich. It is a phenomenon seen in every crisis, especially wars.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,551
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Meanwhile, if the Mail is correct (I know, I know), Jerry Sadowitz's Edinburgh show attracted complaints because he got his penis out on stage, and engaged in racial slurs about Sunak. So it was cancelled. Honestly, these snowflakes. What's wrong with a bit of willy-waving and racism, eh?

    He’s Jerry Sadowitz. As with Frankie Boyle, if you’re buying a ticket with his name on it, you know what you’re letting yourself in for.
    I'm not in favour of cancelling. But again, if the Mail is accurate:

    He called Rishi Sunak a 'p***'; said the economy was awful because it is run by 'blacks and women'. He got his penis out to a woman in the front row.'

    He's treading a fine line, surely?
    Forgive my nervousness at believing tabloid reports of controversial comedy club acts, devoid of the context and nuance that would have been present at the venue for the live audience.
    Just wondering what context you imagine calling Sunak a "Paki" is appropriate.
  • FeersumEnjineeyaFeersumEnjineeya Posts: 4,383
    edited August 2022
    Pulpstar said:

    MikeL said:

    Surely the biggest advantage of freezing energy bills rather than giving handouts to the public to pay for higher bills is that it keeps the inflation figure much lower, in turn:

    1) Saving the Govt a huge amount of interest on index linked gilts

    2) Saving the Govt a huge amount on future inflation linked pension and benefit rises

    3) Takes at least some pressure off demand for huge pay increases (both public and private) which would otherwise also increase inflation

    It basically stops the spiral getting going in the first place.

    Finally it is also by far the best bet electorally. The public has had it drummed into them that energy prices are about to go up massively. If that now doesn't happen, Truss will get lots of credit. The public won't care less about how it will be funded.

    That all makes sense - except then the government is committing to borrowing ~£100bn extra every year to subsidise residential energy bills. And will be under pressure to provide direct subsidies to cap other prices in the economy, such as road fuel and food.

    What we need is an emergency program of investment in the supply side, to reduce our use of fossil fuels as quickly as possible. If the government is throwing £100bn at consumer subsidies then it won't be able to afford to do anything else.
    The govt needs to join with the met office and "solve" the wind, solar, battery, nuclear equation to provide 40 GW of always on power for the UK.
    Then implement it. Simple.
    Demand management also has a role to play. There's no point paying for capacity that is only very rarely used when you could occasionally pay less money to large consumers not to consume. The idea that demand is inflexible and must always be covered come what may is old thinking.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,623
    DavidL said:

    MikeL said:

    Surely the biggest advantage of freezing energy bills rather than giving handouts to the public to pay for higher bills is that it keeps the inflation figure much lower, in turn:

    1) Saving the Govt a huge amount of interest on index linked gilts

    2) Saving the Govt a huge amount on future inflation linked pension and benefit rises

    3) Takes at least some pressure off demand for huge pay increases (both public and private) which would otherwise also increase inflation

    It basically stops the spiral getting going in the first place.

    Finally it is also by far the best bet electorally. The public has had it drummed into them that energy prices are about to go up massively. If that now doesn't happen, Truss will get lots of credit. The public won't care less about how it will be funded.

    It is completely unaffordable. At £2-3k per household it would cost somewhere near £60bn this year.Our education budget is roughly £40bn for a comparison. It would also not stop inflation because businesses and the public sector would have to pay the commercial rate which is going to feed into their cost base for everything else. And if the government borrows the money, which it would have to, it increases the money supply which is, of course, inflationary.

    We have to accept that when international energy prices move this much we have to pay more for them. We need to use that as an incentive to drive down consumption, increase insulation, rapidly develop more domestic alternatives etc but the government cannot hide us from this. All of these subsidy policies are based on the concept this is a one off, like covid, that will come and go. That is almost certainly not the case. Even if the war in Ukraine ended in some messy stalemate can you really see us going back to buying Russian gas again? I can't. If this is not a one off but a new normal what the hell does the government do next year?
    It's completely affordable.

    "The Covid-19 pandemic has resulted in very high levels of public spending. Current estimates of the cost of Government measures announced so far range from about £310 to £410 billion"

    https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-9309/

    You are now going to say: "but on top of Covid spending it's completely unaffordable".

    I will say: windfall tax on energy producers, wealth tax, and yes inflation will come down significantly versus where it will go with an untrammelled price cap - that will provide a big offset.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,970
    Foxy said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Meanwhile, if the Mail is correct (I know, I know), Jerry Sadowitz's Edinburgh show attracted complaints because he got his penis out on stage, and engaged in racial slurs about Sunak. So it was cancelled. Honestly, these snowflakes. What's wrong with a bit of willy-waving and racism, eh?

    He’s Jerry Sadowitz. As with Frankie Boyle, if you’re buying a ticket with his name on it, you know what you’re letting yourself in for.
    I'm not in favour of cancelling. But again, if the Mail is accurate:

    He called Rishi Sunak a 'p***'; said the economy was awful because it is run by 'blacks and women'. He got his penis out to a woman in the front row.'

    He's treading a fine line, surely?
    Forgive my nervousness at believing tabloid reports of controversial comedy club acts, devoid of the context and nuance that would have been present at the venue for the live audience.
    Just wondering what context you imagine calling Sunak a "Paki" is appropriate.
    The Edinburgh Fringe
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,304

    O/T Our neighbour's son-in-law help run his parents big arable farm in Dorset: They have just finished their largest grain harvest ever. So much crop that have had to temporarily store some on the ground in the farmyard while they wait for grain lorries to come and collect it. No drying costs either.

    Somebody's having a good year.

    Well,that's good news, but there will be losers elsewhere, particularly vegetable farmers:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/newsbeat-62505587
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,623

    O/T Our neighbour's son-in-law help run his parents big arable farm in Dorset: They have just finished their largest grain harvest ever. So much crop that have had to temporarily store some on the ground in the farmyard while they wait for grain lorries to come and collect it. No drying costs either.

    Somebody's having a good year.

    Some people are getting rich. It is a phenomenon seen in every crisis, especially wars.
    I don't begrudge them that - they have good years and bad. Also good to know that some of the grain shortfall from Ukraine might be made up in northern Europe this year.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,551

    - “… there’s no floor to the government’s unpopularity.“

    I think this is correct. While unlikely, I do think that a Canada-scenario is feasible.

    I note that Martin Baxter’s “Low Seats” prediction for the Tories is currently 102. As the shit hits the fan that number could fall.

    This video of a Bury North focus group posted by @rottenborough on the previous thread is essential viewing for Conservatives. These are their 2019 voters. They are in pain. Deep pain. One hates to think what they are going to say in 12 months time.

    https://twitter.com/TheNewsDesk/status/1557809256308641793

    The final piece in the Canada jigsaw would be Farage chipping away at Conservative support on the right.

    Up to now, he has pulled his pinches when it counts. But...
    Like all opportunists, he recognises an opportunity when he sees one.

    One heck of an opportunity is about to be presented on a plate to the far-right. Farage’s latest vehicle is in by far the best position to mop up that type of voter.

    I finally got round to reading that Spectator article Mike recommended yesterday. Jeepers creepers! You don’t usually see that kind of stuff in the Spectator! Pulls no punches. This is a party that is ripe for shedding voters left, centre… and right.

    In those final fateful moments, you can observe highly intelligent, highly trained professionals making error after error, gradually dooming them and their passengers. Despite the ringing alarms of the onboard systems, they lose sight of what they are doing or how to avoid the impending doom. They pull the joystick instead of releasing it, they shut down the working engine instead of the failing one, or sometimes the two pilots pull in different directions, cancelling each other out. Eventually, they hit the Point of No Return and, shortly after, the ground.

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-crisis-at-the-heart-of-the-modern-conservative-party

    That article is well worth a read.

    Pity that Labour, SNP etc are equally devoid of answers though.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,623
    ydoethur said:

    O/T Our neighbour's son-in-law help run his parents big arable farm in Dorset: They have just finished their largest grain harvest ever. So much crop that have had to temporarily store some on the ground in the farmyard while they wait for grain lorries to come and collect it. No drying costs either.

    Somebody's having a good year.

    Well,that's good news, but there will be losers elsewhere, particularly vegetable farmers:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/newsbeat-62505587
    Sure. I was surprised tbh. I thought the lack of water would have affected grain size and thus overall yield.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,755

    King Cole, no hindsight required. I said at the time it was a bloody stupid decision. So did many others.

    The problem in Japan was earthquake + tsunami. Germany is not renowned for tsunamis. The change was deranged, unless one takes the view she was acting more for Russia than Germany (not my opinion - I think she was a damned fool, tying her country to Russia for reasons that were stupid rather than treacherous).

    German policy before and during Merkel was based upon the underlying purpose of the EU. The EEC was designed to make another war between France and Germany impossible because their economies were so integrated that neither would be even capable of it. It worked, although there are a whole series of geopolitical reasons why this was never going to happen again anyway. Germany believed that they could do the same with Russia, integrating it so deeply into the European economy that conflict became impossible. This hasn't really worked and the policy has now been abandoned but it was German policy for at least 50 years, arguably more.

    If you have that policy objective then increasing dependency on Russian gas (and increasing Russian dependency on German money) is not foolish but a positive step making conflict less likely. Hence Norstrom 2.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,623
    Foxy said:

    - “… there’s no floor to the government’s unpopularity.“

    I think this is correct. While unlikely, I do think that a Canada-scenario is feasible.

    I note that Martin Baxter’s “Low Seats” prediction for the Tories is currently 102. As the shit hits the fan that number could fall.

    This video of a Bury North focus group posted by @rottenborough on the previous thread is essential viewing for Conservatives. These are their 2019 voters. They are in pain. Deep pain. One hates to think what they are going to say in 12 months time.

    https://twitter.com/TheNewsDesk/status/1557809256308641793

    The final piece in the Canada jigsaw would be Farage chipping away at Conservative support on the right.

    Up to now, he has pulled his pinches when it counts. But...
    Like all opportunists, he recognises an opportunity when he sees one.

    One heck of an opportunity is about to be presented on a plate to the far-right. Farage’s latest vehicle is in by far the best position to mop up that type of voter.

    I finally got round to reading that Spectator article Mike recommended yesterday. Jeepers creepers! You don’t usually see that kind of stuff in the Spectator! Pulls no punches. This is a party that is ripe for shedding voters left, centre… and right.

    In those final fateful moments, you can observe highly intelligent, highly trained professionals making error after error, gradually dooming them and their passengers. Despite the ringing alarms of the onboard systems, they lose sight of what they are doing or how to avoid the impending doom. They pull the joystick instead of releasing it, they shut down the working engine instead of the failing one, or sometimes the two pilots pull in different directions, cancelling each other out. Eventually, they hit the Point of No Return and, shortly after, the ground.

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-crisis-at-the-heart-of-the-modern-conservative-party

    That article is well worth a read.

    Pity that Labour, SNP etc are equally devoid of answers though.
    Starmer's stance on the energy price cap is good though.

    I will just point out here I have been saying for months that it needs to be frozen.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    HYUFD said:

    - “… there’s no floor to the government’s unpopularity.“

    I think this is correct. While unlikely, I do think that a Canada-scenario is feasible.

    I note that Martin Baxter’s “Low Seats” prediction for the Tories is currently 102. As the shit hits the fan that number could fall.

    This video of a Bury North focus group posted by @rottenborough on the previous thread is essential viewing for Conservatives. These are their 2019 voters. They are in pain. Deep pain. One hates to think what they are going to say in 12 months time.

    https://twitter.com/TheNewsDesk/status/1557809256308641793

    Bury North is Labour's top target seat in the UK, if they can't even win there they would make no progress at all. Cost of living and inflation would also still be a problem for any incoming Labour government until the Russian and Ukraine war is over and sanctions have ended and energy supplies been increased
    FUDHY at his empathetic best.

    Con voters in personal and family distress? Not our problem. Bury is dispensable.

    So, when do Conservatives start caring?

    Middlesbrough South and Cleveland East?

    Suffolk Coastal?

    Havant?
  • DavidL said:

    King Cole, no hindsight required. I said at the time it was a bloody stupid decision. So did many others.

    The problem in Japan was earthquake + tsunami. Germany is not renowned for tsunamis. The change was deranged, unless one takes the view she was acting more for Russia than Germany (not my opinion - I think she was a damned fool, tying her country to Russia for reasons that were stupid rather than treacherous).

    German policy before and during Merkel was based upon the underlying purpose of the EU. The EEC was designed to make another war between France and Germany impossible because their economies were so integrated that neither would be even capable of it. It worked, although there are a whole series of geopolitical reasons why this was never going to happen again anyway. Germany believed that they could do the same with Russia, integrating it so deeply into the European economy that conflict became impossible. This hasn't really worked and the policy has now been abandoned but it was German policy for at least 50 years, arguably more.

    If you have that policy objective then increasing dependency on Russian gas (and increasing Russian dependency on German money) is not foolish but a positive step making conflict less likely. Hence Norstrom 2.

    This is well worth reading on Germany's approach to Russia.

    https://www.newstatesman.com/international-content/2022/07/why-germany-cannot-escape-russia-cultural-allure


  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,551
    DavidL said:

    MikeL said:

    Surely the biggest advantage of freezing energy bills rather than giving handouts to the public to pay for higher bills is that it keeps the inflation figure much lower, in turn:

    1) Saving the Govt a huge amount of interest on index linked gilts

    2) Saving the Govt a huge amount on future inflation linked pension and benefit rises

    3) Takes at least some pressure off demand for huge pay increases (both public and private) which would otherwise also increase inflation

    It basically stops the spiral getting going in the first place.

    Finally it is also by far the best bet electorally. The public has had it drummed into them that energy prices are about to go up massively. If that now doesn't happen, Truss will get lots of credit. The public won't care less about how it will be funded.

    It is completely unaffordable. At £2-3k per household it would cost somewhere near £60bn this year.Our education budget is roughly £40bn for a comparison. It would also not stop inflation because businesses and the public sector would have to pay the commercial rate which is going to feed into their cost base for everything else. And if the government borrows the money, which it would have to, it increases the money supply which is, of course, inflationary.

    We have to accept that when international energy prices move this much we have to pay more for them. We need to use that as an incentive to drive down consumption, increase insulation, rapidly develop more domestic alternatives etc but the government cannot hide us from this. All of these subsidy policies are based on the concept this is a one off, like covid, that will come and go. That is almost certainly not the case. Even if the war in Ukraine ended in some messy stalemate can you really see us going back to buying Russian gas again? I can't. If this is not a one off but a new normal what the hell does the government do next year?
    Yes, the greening of the economy has been far too slow. It isn't just our struggling with climate change but also our economic resilience that will suffer as a result.

    Russia sanctions will need to continue for years, barring a complete withdrawal and paying of massive reparations to Ukraine.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,623
    Leon said:

    Meanwhile, if the Mail is correct (I know, I know), Jerry Sadowitz's Edinburgh show attracted complaints because he got his penis out on stage, and engaged in racial slurs about Sunak. So it was cancelled. Honestly, these snowflakes. What's wrong with a bit of willy-waving and racism, eh?

    I let this pass, but in fact, NO

    Because: what actually is wrong with a bit of willy waving and racism? How have we become so pitifully anxious that this unnerves us?

    It’s a penis. It’s part of the human anatomy. Unless Jerry Sadowitz is forcing it down your throat, it is utterly harmless. Indeed a detumescent penis is a forlorn and unthreatening thing, like the buttock of a pensioner. Was someone really so scandalised by it they fainted and complained?

    As for calling the chancellor a p*ki, that’s rude and probably racist BUT IT’S JUST A WORD. he’s a billionaire chancellor. He can probably cope. My god

    More to the point, this is the Fringe. It’s meant to be fringey and edgy, but that’s all gone, so now it will become another sanitised woke-fest and comics will self censor and the grey illiberal lefties win again

    It’s dreadful. The whole woke moralising shit is dreadful. We are censoring ourselves to cultural oblivion. We are like the prim victorians but without the empire, the confidence and the amazing engineering. We are just prim, and dull
    Says the man who called for those asking for a vote on the Brexit deal to be, er, shot.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,271

    I'm wondering if @MaxPB and @Morris_Dancer etc. still want to see the energy price cap abolished?

    I quite like Ed Miliband, but the energy price cap is not looking like one of his better policy ideas.

    From a purely political angle, it fails to cap energy prices, but it has the government assume responsibility for their increase. Absolutely mental.

    And, to paraphrase Blair, it's not exactly, "tough on high energy prices, tough on the causes of high energy prices," because it does nothing to address why energy prices are increasing.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,623

    HYUFD said:

    - “… there’s no floor to the government’s unpopularity.“

    I think this is correct. While unlikely, I do think that a Canada-scenario is feasible.

    I note that Martin Baxter’s “Low Seats” prediction for the Tories is currently 102. As the shit hits the fan that number could fall.

    This video of a Bury North focus group posted by @rottenborough on the previous thread is essential viewing for Conservatives. These are their 2019 voters. They are in pain. Deep pain. One hates to think what they are going to say in 12 months time.

    https://twitter.com/TheNewsDesk/status/1557809256308641793

    Bury North is Labour's top target seat in the UK, if they can't even win there they would make no progress at all. Cost of living and inflation would also still be a problem for any incoming Labour government until the Russian and Ukraine war is over and sanctions have ended and energy supplies been increased
    FUDHY at his empathetic best.

    Con voters in personal and family distress? Not our problem. Bury is dispensable.

    So, when do Conservatives start caring?

    Middlesbrough South and Cleveland East?

    Suffolk Coastal?

    Havant?
    Epping. The last redoubt.
  • Leon said:

    Meanwhile, if the Mail is correct (I know, I know), Jerry Sadowitz's Edinburgh show attracted complaints because he got his penis out on stage, and engaged in racial slurs about Sunak. So it was cancelled. Honestly, these snowflakes. What's wrong with a bit of willy-waving and racism, eh?

    I let this pass, but in fact, NO

    Because: what actually is wrong with a bit of willy waving and racism? How have we become so pitifully anxious that this unnerves us?

    It’s a penis. It’s part of the human anatomy. Unless Jerry Sadowitz is forcing it down your throat, it is utterly harmless. Indeed a detumescent penis is a forlorn and unthreatening thing, like the buttock of a pensioner. Was someone really so scandalised by it they fainted and complained?

    As for calling the chancellor a p*ki, that’s rude and probably racist BUT IT’S JUST A WORD. he’s a billionaire chancellor. He can probably cope. My god

    More to the point, this is the Fringe. It’s meant to be fringey and edgy, but that’s all gone, so now it will become another sanitised woke-fest and comics will self censor and the grey illiberal lefties win again

    It’s dreadful. The whole woke moralising shit is dreadful. We are censoring ourselves to cultural oblivion. We are like the prim victorians but without the empire, the confidence and the amazing engineering. We are just prim, and dull
    I agree with you.

    Was Mary Whitehouse woke before her time?

  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,970

    Leon said:

    Meanwhile, if the Mail is correct (I know, I know), Jerry Sadowitz's Edinburgh show attracted complaints because he got his penis out on stage, and engaged in racial slurs about Sunak. So it was cancelled. Honestly, these snowflakes. What's wrong with a bit of willy-waving and racism, eh?

    I let this pass, but in fact, NO

    Because: what actually is wrong with a bit of willy waving and racism? How have we become so pitifully anxious that this unnerves us?

    It’s a penis. It’s part of the human anatomy. Unless Jerry Sadowitz is forcing it down your throat, it is utterly harmless. Indeed a detumescent penis is a forlorn and unthreatening thing, like the buttock of a pensioner. Was someone really so scandalised by it they fainted and complained?

    As for calling the chancellor a p*ki, that’s rude and probably racist BUT IT’S JUST A WORD. he’s a billionaire chancellor. He can probably cope. My god

    More to the point, this is the Fringe. It’s meant to be fringey and edgy, but that’s all gone, so now it will become another sanitised woke-fest and comics will self censor and the grey illiberal lefties win again

    It’s dreadful. The whole woke moralising shit is dreadful. We are censoring ourselves to cultural oblivion. We are like the prim victorians but without the empire, the confidence and the amazing engineering. We are just prim, and dull
    Says the man who called for those asking for a vote on the Brexit deal to be, er, shot.
    At least I’m not dull

    However, you need to provide a citation. I doubt I ever said that
This discussion has been closed.