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The Saturday open thread – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,222
edited August 2022 in General
imageThe Saturday open thread – politicalbetting.com

One of the best reads this morning is this – The Crisis at the hearts of the Conservative Party by Johnson Oxley in the Speccie

Read the full story here

«1345678

Comments

  • Morning punters.. Am I first, again?
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,904
    The Conservative Party doesn't have a heart.
  • Betfair next prime minister
    1.11 Liz Truss 90%
    10 Rishi Sunak 10%

    Next Conservative leader
    1.1 Liz Truss 91%
    10 Rishi Sunak 10%
  • jamesdoylejamesdoyle Posts: 790
    Wow, in before Leon tried to detail the thread. In five, four, three...
  • jamesdoylejamesdoyle Posts: 790

    Wow, in before Leon tried to detail the thread. In five, four, three...

    Derail, obviously!
  • What does a good old definitely-non-anti-semitic-but-anti-zionist activist do when they go to a pro-Palestine demo and find themselves stood next to this?

  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,755

    What does a good old definitely-non-anti-semitic-but-anti-zionist activist do when they go to a pro-Palestine demo and find themselves stood next to this?

    Complement her skirt and ask for her number?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,860
    edited August 2022

    The Conservative Party doesn't have a heart.

    I’m more concerned about its apparent lack of brain.
  • moonshine said:

    What does a good old definitely-non-anti-semitic-but-anti-zionist activist do when they go to a pro-Palestine demo and find themselves stood next to this?

    Complement her skirt and ask for her number?
    She might prefer a compliment!

  • Thanks for the link Mike. That piece is, for me, absolutely on the nose.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,377

    The Conservative Party doesn't have a heart.

    Mike seems to have awarded it multiple hearts.

    However, that’s irrelevant. Far more importantly, it doesn’t have a clue, and hasn’t for a long time now.

    The linked article is excellent.
    I can only hope that Labour doesn’t prove as useless when it comes to actually governing.
  • VerulamiusVerulamius Posts: 1,550
    I see that Truss's Project Switch has a Cabinet Minister changing his position.

    Buckland now wants to be lead by Liz.
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,755

    I see that Truss's Project Switch has a Cabinet Minister changing his position.

    Buckland now wants to be lead by Liz.

    Presumably what we’re seeing is naked self interest from the recent MP endorsements? Rather than serious worries about the good ship Sunak?
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,109
    Robert Buckland, who called on Boris Johnson to resign before accepting a job in his Cabinet a few hours later, switches support from Rishi Sunak to Liz Truss. https://twitter.com/JamesCleverly/status/1558202508492824577
  • Thanks for the link Mike. That piece is, for me, absolutely on the nose.

    Brutal and entertaining...
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,961

    What does a good old definitely-non-anti-semitic-but-anti-zionist activist do when they go to a pro-Palestine demo and find themselves stood next to this?

    I've been on demos in the past where someone with a sign like that would be told to sod off, politely at first, and forced to leave. As someone who has organised demos, I know that if you don't do that a lot of people who might join the demo will just give up on it and walk away, and you'll be left with a small group of people looking embarrassed next to the nutjob.
  • TazTaz Posts: 15,089
    Scott_xP said:

    Robert Buckland, who called on Boris Johnson to resign before accepting a job in his Cabinet a few hours later, switches support from Rishi Sunak to Liz Truss. https://twitter.com/JamesCleverly/status/1558202508492824577

    Shameless
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,337
    Slovakia has announced that they will ground their MiG-29 fighter jets next month and donate them to Ukraine.

    🇸🇰🇺🇦


    https://twitter.com/visegrad24/status/1558353124020174849
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,109

    The problem isn't the Tory party, its the voters. People want contradictory things but refuse to accept there is a contradiction. A series of events have empowered them to believe their genuine ignorance on a subject holds the same weight as actual knowledge and experience. They aren't wrong, the experts are wrong.

    There is a way through though - find us a new Blair or Thatcher, someone who does know what they are talking about and has political umph. People said "that is Boris" but as all but the remaining holdouts now accept Boris stood for nothing, with no great policies delivered and settled in his time.

    Ummm, BoZo was the politician more than any other in my lifetime that told voters they could have contradictory things. Denied the contradictions. That experts were to be derided.

    He was the problem
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,690
    edited August 2022

    On the Spectator piece, whilst it nails just how pointless this government is, I can't help feel a little sorry for the party.

    The problem isn't the Tory party, its the voters. People want contradictory things but refuse to accept there is a contradiction. A series of events have empowered them to believe their genuine ignorance on a subject holds the same weight as actual knowledge and experience. They aren't wrong, the experts are wrong.

    People don't understand their problems so can't ask for solutions. So they tie the politicians up in knots, demanding solutions they can't have for problems they utterly misunderstand. Tories - and Labour for that matter - have to sing stupid songs because that has become the only way to get elected.

    There is a way through though - find us a new Blair or Thatcher, someone who does know what they are talking about and has political umph. People said "that is Boris" but as all but the remaining holdouts now accept Boris stood for nothing, with no great policies delivered and settled in his time.

    Is there such a politician?

    Good morning

    Excellent comment highlighting the impossibility of governing in this moment in time

    It is not just the conservatives or labour parties, but nobody has a solution to the intractable problems facing not only the UK but Europe and beyond
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,860

    On the Spectator piece, whilst it nails just how pointless this government is, I can't help feel a little sorry for the party.

    The problem isn't the Tory party, its the voters. People want contradictory things but refuse to accept there is a contradiction. A series of events have empowered them to believe their genuine ignorance on a subject holds the same weight as actual knowledge and experience. They aren't wrong, the experts are wrong.

    People don't understand their problems so can't ask for solutions. So they tie the politicians up in knots, demanding solutions they can't have for problems they utterly misunderstand. Tories - and Labour for that matter - have to sing stupid songs because that has become the only way to get elected.

    There is a way through though - find us a new Blair or Thatcher, someone who does know what they are talking about and has political umph. People said "that is Boris" but as all but the remaining holdouts now accept Boris stood for nothing, with no great policies delivered and settled in his time.

    Is there such a politician?

    No. Happy to help.
  • Nigelb said:

    The Conservative Party doesn't have a heart.

    Mike seems to have awarded it multiple hearts.

    However, that’s irrelevant. Far more importantly, it doesn’t have a clue, and hasn’t for a long time now.

    The linked article is excellent.
    I can only hope that Labour doesn’t prove as useless when it comes to actually governing.
    Yes, that's my view too - although individual Ministers continue to work hard on real improvements (most people in the environment sphere still rate the Defra team highly), the project as a whole doesn't seem to exist. It seems obvious that a spell in Opposition to have a think about what they're for is needed. I get their fund-raising emails regularly, and they are usually essentially "give us money to stop the menace of Starmer", which is a bit like trying to sell insurance against the possibllity of catching a mild cold.

    Whether the Labour project exists and is being kept under wraps until the election through magnificent self-discipline, or is merely "we are the sensible people who will govern fairly", I'm genuinely not sure. Next week should ptovide some clues. Just as Biden won by being the non-Trump, it's possible to see Labour winning by being the non-crazy non-Tories, but it would be nice to feel a sense of direction.
    What do Labour offer to people who don't understand where they are or what their problems are? You can't speak the truth to people who think lies are truth and ignorance is knowledge.

    If Starmer was Blair he would talk about vision and opportunity. But he isn't. Labour simply have nobody with vision and a compelling voice, just as the Tories lack a Thatcher. Either we find someone to lead us out of the morass the country is now in or it will just fall apart.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,904

    What does a good old definitely-non-anti-semitic-but-anti-zionist activist do when they go to a pro-Palestine demo and find themselves stood next to this?

    Talk to them? Walk away? It's difficult. When I went on the big anti war demo in 2003 I remember being pissed off that Blair had put me on the same side as a load of Trot wankers. Unfortunately it happens sometimes.
  • On the Spectator piece, whilst it nails just how pointless this government is, I can't help feel a little sorry for the party.

    The problem isn't the Tory party, its the voters. People want contradictory things but refuse to accept there is a contradiction. A series of events have empowered them to believe their genuine ignorance on a subject holds the same weight as actual knowledge and experience. They aren't wrong, the experts are wrong.

    People don't understand their problems so can't ask for solutions. So they tie the politicians up in knots, demanding solutions they can't have for problems they utterly misunderstand. Tories - and Labour for that matter - have to sing stupid songs because that has become the only way to get elected.

    There is a way through though - find us a new Blair or Thatcher, someone who does know what they are talking about and has political umph. People said "that is Boris" but as all but the remaining holdouts now accept Boris stood for nothing, with no great policies delivered and settled in his time.

    Is there such a politician?

    Good morning

    Excellent comment highlighting the impossibility of governing in this moment in time

    It is not just the conservatives or labour, but nobody has a solution to the intractable problems facing not only the UK but Europe and beyond
    I wouldn't go as far as that. Many other countries manage the basics. The UK is sliding into a pit where we can't keep the lights on or hospitals staffed or basic services delivered. Despite record taxes being levied.

    We're getting to the point where some people now recognise things are broken, but have a reason that simply is wrong and a solution that is mad - "nationalise everything" etc etc. Others think everything is great and the only people complaining are the "other" - the woke, the remoaners, the lefties etc etc.
  • Scott_xP said:

    The problem isn't the Tory party, its the voters. People want contradictory things but refuse to accept there is a contradiction. A series of events have empowered them to believe their genuine ignorance on a subject holds the same weight as actual knowledge and experience. They aren't wrong, the experts are wrong.

    There is a way through though - find us a new Blair or Thatcher, someone who does know what they are talking about and has political umph. People said "that is Boris" but as all but the remaining holdouts now accept Boris stood for nothing, with no great policies delivered and settled in his time.

    Ummm, BoZo was the politician more than any other in my lifetime that told voters they could have contradictory things. Denied the contradictions. That experts were to be derided.

    He was the problem
    The fact his opponents failed to make their case shows how poor they were
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,759
    Good morning ladies and gentlemen!
    Mr P, our late leader did stand for something; Brexit! The only trouble was it was an idea for him, not something which needed careful thought! As somebody said about him long ago, he was a sort of chap who saw which way a crowd was running, got in front of it and shouted "follow me"!
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    - “… The Crisis at the hearts of the Conservative Party…”

    I’m surprised they found one, let alone two.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,109

    The fact his opponents failed to make their case shows how poor they were

    Not really.

    People like BoZo for the same reason they liked Jimmy Saville.

    It is not a failure of politics that people didn't turn against them
  • On the Spectator piece, whilst it nails just how pointless this government is, I can't help feel a little sorry for the party.

    The problem isn't the Tory party, its the voters. People want contradictory things but refuse to accept there is a contradiction. A series of events have empowered them to believe their genuine ignorance on a subject holds the same weight as actual knowledge and experience. They aren't wrong, the experts are wrong.

    People don't understand their problems so can't ask for solutions. So they tie the politicians up in knots, demanding solutions they can't have for problems they utterly misunderstand. Tories - and Labour for that matter - have to sing stupid songs because that has become the only way to get elected.

    There is a way through though - find us a new Blair or Thatcher, someone who does know what they are talking about and has political umph. People said "that is Boris" but as all but the remaining holdouts now accept Boris stood for nothing, with no great policies delivered and settled in his time.

    Is there such a politician?

    Good morning

    Excellent comment highlighting the impossibility of governing in this moment in time

    It is not just the conservatives or labour, but nobody has a solution to the intractable problems facing not only the UK but Europe and beyond
    I wouldn't go as far as that. Many other countries manage the basics. The UK is sliding into a pit where we can't keep the lights on or hospitals staffed or basic services delivered. Despite record taxes being levied.

    We're getting to the point where some people now recognise things are broken, but have a reason that simply is wrong and a solution that is mad - "nationalise everything" etc etc. Others think everything is great and the only people complaining are the "other" - the woke, the remoaners, the lefties etc etc.
    Listening to the economic armageddon engulfing Europe at present with the Rhine at such low levels shipping is grinding to a halt, France struggling with its nuclear power stations and EDF seeking 8.5 billion euro compensation, Norway shortage of water is threatening their energy exports, and high rates of inflation all adds to the crisis
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,961
    This looks like the moment when Test cricket will now have to start making do with the players who aren't good enough to cut it in franchise T20 cricket.

    https://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2022/aug/13/cricket-is-about-to-reach-tipping-point-with-power-grab-of-alternative-season
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,476
    edited August 2022
    Scott_xP said:

    The fact his opponents failed to make their case shows how poor they were

    Not really.

    People like BoZo for the same reason they liked Jimmy Saville.

    It is not a failure of politics that people didn't turn against them
    Hmm, "some" needs to be added in front of "people". Neither of those gents were universally liked even in the pre-Downing St/denouement eras.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,109

    Good morning ladies and gentlemen!
    Mr P, our late leader did stand for something; Brexit! The only trouble was it was an idea for him, not something which needed careful thought! As somebody said about him long ago, he was a sort of chap who saw which way a crowd was running, got in front of it and shouted "follow me"!

    But Brexit is the primo example of the disconnect between truth and reality.

    BoZo told people his shitshow was a masterpiece. That none of the inevitable problems it caused would happen. That it would cure imaginary ills.

    If the problem is politicians not prepared to tell voters the truth and have them believe it, Brexit is the case study in why not.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,109
    Carnyx said:

    Scott_xP said:

    The fact his opponents failed to make their case shows how poor they were

    Not really.

    People like BoZo for the same reason they liked Jimmy Saville.

    It is not a failure of politics that people didn't turn against them
    Hmm, "some" needs to be added in front of "people". Neither of those gents were universally liked even in the pre-Downing St/denouement eras.
    True
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,987
    As an aside on Savile, there were rumours about him. I have vague memories of primary school chatter about it on one occasion.
  • On the Spectator piece, whilst it nails just how pointless this government is, I can't help feel a little sorry for the party.

    The problem isn't the Tory party, its the voters. People want contradictory things but refuse to accept there is a contradiction. A series of events have empowered them to believe their genuine ignorance on a subject holds the same weight as actual knowledge and experience. They aren't wrong, the experts are wrong.

    People don't understand their problems so can't ask for solutions. So they tie the politicians up in knots, demanding solutions they can't have for problems they utterly misunderstand. Tories - and Labour for that matter - have to sing stupid songs because that has become the only way to get elected.

    There is a way through though - find us a new Blair or Thatcher, someone who does know what they are talking about and has political umph. People said "that is Boris" but as all but the remaining holdouts now accept Boris stood for nothing, with no great policies delivered and settled in his time.

    Is there such a politician?

    Good morning

    Excellent comment highlighting the impossibility of governing in this moment in time

    It is not just the conservatives or labour, but nobody has a solution to the intractable problems facing not only the UK but Europe and beyond
    I wouldn't go as far as that. Many other countries manage the basics. The UK is sliding into a pit where we can't keep the lights on or hospitals staffed or basic services delivered. Despite record taxes being levied.

    We're getting to the point where some people now recognise things are broken, but have a reason that simply is wrong and a solution that is mad - "nationalise everything" etc etc. Others think everything is great and the only people complaining are the "other" - the woke, the remoaners, the lefties etc etc.
    I would just say that Labour rejecting energy nationalisation was good to hear but let's see how long that lasts once the left get to work
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,762
    On topic, I'm afraid I largely agree with John Oxley.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,476

    On the Spectator piece, whilst it nails just how pointless this government is, I can't help feel a little sorry for the party.

    The problem isn't the Tory party, its the voters. People want contradictory things but refuse to accept there is a contradiction. A series of events have empowered them to believe their genuine ignorance on a subject holds the same weight as actual knowledge and experience. They aren't wrong, the experts are wrong.

    People don't understand their problems so can't ask for solutions. So they tie the politicians up in knots, demanding solutions they can't have for problems they utterly misunderstand. Tories - and Labour for that matter - have to sing stupid songs because that has become the only way to get elected.

    There is a way through though - find us a new Blair or Thatcher, someone who does know what they are talking about and has political umph. People said "that is Boris" but as all but the remaining holdouts now accept Boris stood for nothing, with no great policies delivered and settled in his time.

    Is there such a politician?

    Good morning

    Excellent comment highlighting the impossibility of governing in this moment in time

    It is not just the conservatives or labour, but nobody has a solution to the intractable problems facing not only the UK but Europe and beyond
    I wouldn't go as far as that. Many other countries manage the basics. The UK is sliding into a pit where we can't keep the lights on or hospitals staffed or basic services delivered. Despite record taxes being levied.

    We're getting to the point where some people now recognise things are broken, but have a reason that simply is wrong and a solution that is mad - "nationalise everything" etc etc. Others think everything is great and the only people complaining are the "other" - the woke, the remoaners, the lefties etc etc.
    Listening to the economic armageddon engulfing Europe at present with the Rhine at such low levels shipping is grinding to a halt, France struggling with its nuclear power stations and EDF seeking 8.5 billion euro compensation, Norway shortage of water is threatening their energy exports, and high rates of inflation all adds to the crisis
    So it's all right for us to add Brexit to everything else, is it
  • I wonder how Keith Vaz feels about having led this anti-Rushdie demonstration through Leicester

    "Islam's sword is mightier than the blasphemer's pen"

  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,109

    As an aside on Savile, there were rumours about him. I have vague memories of primary school chatter about it on one occasion.

    With BoZo, there were not only rumours, there was documented fact, but those in a position to act "overlooked" any flaws in favour of public acclaim.

    A mistake, on both counts.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,476

    I wonder how Keith Vaz feels about having led this anti-Rushdie demonstration through Leicester

    "Islam's sword is mightier than the blasphemer's pen"

    Forget the politics. That's definitely one for Sunil - it's the very nice porte cochère of the Midland Railway station at Leicester.
  • Scott_xP said:

    The fact his opponents failed to make their case shows how poor they were

    Not really.

    People like BoZo for the same reason they liked Jimmy Saville.

    It is not a failure of politics that people didn't turn against them
    Equating Johnson with Saville is a nonsense, and of course it was a failure of people like yourself and others to win a very winnable case
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,910

    Thanks for the link Mike. That piece is, for me, absolutely on the nose.

    Brutal and entertaining...
    And lacking a single suggestion that would help run the country better and be politically possible. It is a classic Spectator article. Full of half truths and generalisations it mirrors the Mail but is aimed at people who think they are bright.

    BTW it implies (but just evades saying it direct - a classic Speccie tactic) that if you have a post tax household income of £31.5k you face 'destitution' if your energy bills are £4400 pa.

    Back in the real world a household with two keen smokers can spend that amount.

  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,987
    Mr. xP, plenty stated at the time he was unfit to be Prime Minister. The Conservatives had the example of his own time as FS and Corbyn's as a party leader and stupidly still backed Boris Johnson.
  • Carnyx said:

    On the Spectator piece, whilst it nails just how pointless this government is, I can't help feel a little sorry for the party.

    The problem isn't the Tory party, its the voters. People want contradictory things but refuse to accept there is a contradiction. A series of events have empowered them to believe their genuine ignorance on a subject holds the same weight as actual knowledge and experience. They aren't wrong, the experts are wrong.

    People don't understand their problems so can't ask for solutions. So they tie the politicians up in knots, demanding solutions they can't have for problems they utterly misunderstand. Tories - and Labour for that matter - have to sing stupid songs because that has become the only way to get elected.

    There is a way through though - find us a new Blair or Thatcher, someone who does know what they are talking about and has political umph. People said "that is Boris" but as all but the remaining holdouts now accept Boris stood for nothing, with no great policies delivered and settled in his time.

    Is there such a politician?

    Good morning

    Excellent comment highlighting the impossibility of governing in this moment in time

    It is not just the conservatives or labour, but nobody has a solution to the intractable problems facing not only the UK but Europe and beyond
    I wouldn't go as far as that. Many other countries manage the basics. The UK is sliding into a pit where we can't keep the lights on or hospitals staffed or basic services delivered. Despite record taxes being levied.

    We're getting to the point where some people now recognise things are broken, but have a reason that simply is wrong and a solution that is mad - "nationalise everything" etc etc. Others think everything is great and the only people complaining are the "other" - the woke, the remoaners, the lefties etc etc.
    Listening to the economic armageddon engulfing Europe at present with the Rhine at such low levels shipping is grinding to a halt, France struggling with its nuclear power stations and EDF seeking 8.5 billion euro compensation, Norway shortage of water is threatening their energy exports, and high rates of inflation all adds to the crisis
    So it's all right for us to add Brexit to everything else, is it
    Brexit is not helping but is far from the only issue and certainly is irrelevant to the problems Europe are facing
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,109

    Equating Johnson with Saville is a nonsense

    No, it isn't.

    Both were popular. Both were handed power and responsibility as a result. Both abused it.

    Popularity turns out to be a poor judge of character.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,476

    Carnyx said:

    On the Spectator piece, whilst it nails just how pointless this government is, I can't help feel a little sorry for the party.

    The problem isn't the Tory party, its the voters. People want contradictory things but refuse to accept there is a contradiction. A series of events have empowered them to believe their genuine ignorance on a subject holds the same weight as actual knowledge and experience. They aren't wrong, the experts are wrong.

    People don't understand their problems so can't ask for solutions. So they tie the politicians up in knots, demanding solutions they can't have for problems they utterly misunderstand. Tories - and Labour for that matter - have to sing stupid songs because that has become the only way to get elected.

    There is a way through though - find us a new Blair or Thatcher, someone who does know what they are talking about and has political umph. People said "that is Boris" but as all but the remaining holdouts now accept Boris stood for nothing, with no great policies delivered and settled in his time.

    Is there such a politician?

    Good morning

    Excellent comment highlighting the impossibility of governing in this moment in time

    It is not just the conservatives or labour, but nobody has a solution to the intractable problems facing not only the UK but Europe and beyond
    I wouldn't go as far as that. Many other countries manage the basics. The UK is sliding into a pit where we can't keep the lights on or hospitals staffed or basic services delivered. Despite record taxes being levied.

    We're getting to the point where some people now recognise things are broken, but have a reason that simply is wrong and a solution that is mad - "nationalise everything" etc etc. Others think everything is great and the only people complaining are the "other" - the woke, the remoaners, the lefties etc etc.
    Listening to the economic armageddon engulfing Europe at present with the Rhine at such low levels shipping is grinding to a halt, France struggling with its nuclear power stations and EDF seeking 8.5 billion euro compensation, Norway shortage of water is threatening their energy exports, and high rates of inflation all adds to the crisis
    So it's all right for us to add Brexit to everything else, is it
    Brexit is not helping but is far from the only issue and certainly is irrelevant to the problems Europe are facing
    We ARE in Europe. You mean the EU, and Brexit sure is irrelevant to their problems. It's not one of their problems!
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146

    Disaster #8 for @Leon ??


    Eric Holthaus
    @EricHolthaus
    This is one of the extreme climate disasters I'm most worried about.

    A California megaflood would be the world's first $1 trillion weather disaster, and could displace millions of people.

    Climate change greatly increases the chances of intense rainfall events.

    https://twitter.com/EricHolthaus/status/1558185394298146821

    California 2050 = Channeled Scablands II ?

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missoula_floods

    The Yellowstone supervolcano erupting is more likely. The Toba supervolcano eruption on Sumatra, 74,000 years ago, triggered a 6- to 10-year global winter that nearly wiped out the nascent human race.
  • Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    On the Spectator piece, whilst it nails just how pointless this government is, I can't help feel a little sorry for the party.

    The problem isn't the Tory party, its the voters. People want contradictory things but refuse to accept there is a contradiction. A series of events have empowered them to believe their genuine ignorance on a subject holds the same weight as actual knowledge and experience. They aren't wrong, the experts are wrong.

    People don't understand their problems so can't ask for solutions. So they tie the politicians up in knots, demanding solutions they can't have for problems they utterly misunderstand. Tories - and Labour for that matter - have to sing stupid songs because that has become the only way to get elected.

    There is a way through though - find us a new Blair or Thatcher, someone who does know what they are talking about and has political umph. People said "that is Boris" but as all but the remaining holdouts now accept Boris stood for nothing, with no great policies delivered and settled in his time.

    Is there such a politician?

    Good morning

    Excellent comment highlighting the impossibility of governing in this moment in time

    It is not just the conservatives or labour, but nobody has a solution to the intractable problems facing not only the UK but Europe and beyond
    I wouldn't go as far as that. Many other countries manage the basics. The UK is sliding into a pit where we can't keep the lights on or hospitals staffed or basic services delivered. Despite record taxes being levied.

    We're getting to the point where some people now recognise things are broken, but have a reason that simply is wrong and a solution that is mad - "nationalise everything" etc etc. Others think everything is great and the only people complaining are the "other" - the woke, the remoaners, the lefties etc etc.
    Listening to the economic armageddon engulfing Europe at present with the Rhine at such low levels shipping is grinding to a halt, France struggling with its nuclear power stations and EDF seeking 8.5 billion euro compensation, Norway shortage of water is threatening their energy exports, and high rates of inflation all adds to the crisis
    So it's all right for us to add Brexit to everything else, is it
    Brexit is not helping but is far from the only issue and certainly is irrelevant to the problems Europe are facing
    We ARE in Europe. You mean the EU, and Brexit sure is irrelevant to their problems. It's not one of their problems!
    Norway is not in the EU and I was referring to the present drought crisis across Europe
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,476

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    On the Spectator piece, whilst it nails just how pointless this government is, I can't help feel a little sorry for the party.

    The problem isn't the Tory party, its the voters. People want contradictory things but refuse to accept there is a contradiction. A series of events have empowered them to believe their genuine ignorance on a subject holds the same weight as actual knowledge and experience. They aren't wrong, the experts are wrong.

    People don't understand their problems so can't ask for solutions. So they tie the politicians up in knots, demanding solutions they can't have for problems they utterly misunderstand. Tories - and Labour for that matter - have to sing stupid songs because that has become the only way to get elected.

    There is a way through though - find us a new Blair or Thatcher, someone who does know what they are talking about and has political umph. People said "that is Boris" but as all but the remaining holdouts now accept Boris stood for nothing, with no great policies delivered and settled in his time.

    Is there such a politician?

    Good morning

    Excellent comment highlighting the impossibility of governing in this moment in time

    It is not just the conservatives or labour, but nobody has a solution to the intractable problems facing not only the UK but Europe and beyond
    I wouldn't go as far as that. Many other countries manage the basics. The UK is sliding into a pit where we can't keep the lights on or hospitals staffed or basic services delivered. Despite record taxes being levied.

    We're getting to the point where some people now recognise things are broken, but have a reason that simply is wrong and a solution that is mad - "nationalise everything" etc etc. Others think everything is great and the only people complaining are the "other" - the woke, the remoaners, the lefties etc etc.
    Listening to the economic armageddon engulfing Europe at present with the Rhine at such low levels shipping is grinding to a halt, France struggling with its nuclear power stations and EDF seeking 8.5 billion euro compensation, Norway shortage of water is threatening their energy exports, and high rates of inflation all adds to the crisis
    So it's all right for us to add Brexit to everything else, is it
    Brexit is not helping but is far from the only issue and certainly is irrelevant to the problems Europe are facing
    We ARE in Europe. You mean the EU, and Brexit sure is irrelevant to their problems. It's not one of their problems!
    Norway is not in the EU and I was referring to the present drought crisis across Europe
    Brexit isn't relevant to them either!
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 23,156

    On the Spectator piece, whilst it nails just how pointless this government is, I can't help feel a little sorry for the party.

    The problem isn't the Tory party, its the voters. People want contradictory things but refuse to accept there is a contradiction. A series of events have empowered them to believe their genuine ignorance on a subject holds the same weight as actual knowledge and experience. They aren't wrong, the experts are wrong.

    People don't understand their problems so can't ask for solutions. So they tie the politicians up in knots, demanding solutions they can't have for problems they utterly misunderstand. Tories - and Labour for that matter - have to sing stupid songs because that has become the only way to get elected.

    There is a way through though - find us a new Blair or Thatcher, someone who does know what they are talking about and has political umph. People said "that is Boris" but as all but the remaining holdouts now accept Boris stood for nothing, with no great policies delivered and settled in his time.

    Is there such a politician?

    Rory Stewart was the closest up and coming young politician willing to take the approach, with the potential gravitas and knowledge to back it up.

    Jess Phillips has a bit of it about her as well but less convinced she could deliver.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,547

    What does a good old definitely-non-anti-semitic-but-anti-zionist activist do when they go to a pro-Palestine demo and find themselves stood next to this?

    Talk to them? Walk away? It's difficult. When I went on the big anti war demo in 2003 I remember being pissed off that Blair had put me on the same side as a load of Trot wankers. Unfortunately it happens sometimes.
    The problems occur when it turns out that the group all 'trot wankers', and you're just the useful moderate idiot.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,109

    Rory Stewart was the closest up and coming young politician willing to take the approach, with the potential gravitas and knowledge to back it up.

    Jess Phillips has a bit of it about her as well but less convinced she could deliver.

    Rory Stewart, the failed Conservative leadership candidate, and the Labour leader Sir Keir Starmer drew bigger Edinburgh Fringe crowds than Nicola Sturgeon.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/f5ff4648-1a8b-11ed-b1f4-627a202c7457?shareToken=5c0c3c632caac02b05ad9da0839d29d0
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,476
    edited August 2022

    Disaster #8 for @Leon ??


    Eric Holthaus
    @EricHolthaus
    This is one of the extreme climate disasters I'm most worried about.

    A California megaflood would be the world's first $1 trillion weather disaster, and could displace millions of people.

    Climate change greatly increases the chances of intense rainfall events.

    https://twitter.com/EricHolthaus/status/1558185394298146821

    California 2050 = Channeled Scablands II ?

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missoula_floods

    The Yellowstone supervolcano erupting is more likely. The Toba supervolcano eruption on Sumatra, 74,000 years ago, triggered a 6- to 10-year global winter that nearly wiped out the nascent human race.
    He may be thinking of this rather than the Scablands (amazing as they are) -

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Flood_of_1862

    BTW did you ever read of the Moray flood of 1829? Lauder's book is great and is online, and so is the McEwen and Werritty paper if you can get access (on researchgate?).

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muckle_Spate
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,963

    On the Spectator piece, whilst it nails just how pointless this government is, I can't help feel a little sorry for the party.

    The problem isn't the Tory party, its the voters. People want contradictory things but refuse to accept there is a contradiction. A series of events have empowered them to believe their genuine ignorance on a subject holds the same weight as actual knowledge and experience. They aren't wrong, the experts are wrong.

    People don't understand their problems so can't ask for solutions. So they tie the politicians up in knots, demanding solutions they can't have for problems they utterly misunderstand. Tories - and Labour for that matter - have to sing stupid songs because that has become the only way to get elected.

    There is a way through though - find us a new Blair or Thatcher, someone who does know what they are talking about and has political umph. People said "that is Boris" but as all but the remaining holdouts now accept Boris stood for nothing, with no great policies delivered and settled in his time.

    Is there such a politician?

    I am not sure I agree. Blair and Thatcher came with their own baggage and both flattered to deceive.

    What we do need is collegiate Cabinet Government working as a team to resolve the issues of the day. Maybe Sunak could have been your man?

    We don't need Blair, Thatcher blowhards, and we certainly don't need Johnson/Truss.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 23,156
    Scott_xP said:

    Rory Stewart was the closest up and coming young politician willing to take the approach, with the potential gravitas and knowledge to back it up.

    Jess Phillips has a bit of it about her as well but less convinced she could deliver.

    Rory Stewart, the failed Conservative leadership candidate, and the Labour leader Sir Keir Starmer drew bigger Edinburgh Fringe crowds than Nicola Sturgeon.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/f5ff4648-1a8b-11ed-b1f4-627a202c7457?shareToken=5c0c3c632caac02b05ad9da0839d29d0
    Not sure if that suggests you think they are a joke or popular......
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,860

    This looks like the moment when Test cricket will now have to start making do with the players who aren't good enough to cut it in franchise T20 cricket.

    https://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2022/aug/13/cricket-is-about-to-reach-tipping-point-with-power-grab-of-alternative-season

    There are plenty of players not good enough to cut it in Test cricket who do very well on the franchise circuit. The likes of Cockbain (not even a first class regular and just released by his county) Livingstone, Buttler himself, Morgan, Bravo, Pollard, Malinga, Mitchell Marsh...it's a long old list.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,965
    Carnyx said:

    Disaster #8 for @Leon ??


    Eric Holthaus
    @EricHolthaus
    This is one of the extreme climate disasters I'm most worried about.

    A California megaflood would be the world's first $1 trillion weather disaster, and could displace millions of people.

    Climate change greatly increases the chances of intense rainfall events.

    https://twitter.com/EricHolthaus/status/1558185394298146821

    California 2050 = Channeled Scablands II ?

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missoula_floods

    The Yellowstone supervolcano erupting is more likely. The Toba supervolcano eruption on Sumatra, 74,000 years ago, triggered a 6- to 10-year global winter that nearly wiped out the nascent human race.
    He may be thinking of this rather than the Scablands (amazing as they are) -

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Flood_of_1862

    BTW did you ever read of the Moray flood of 1829? Lauder's book is great and is online, and so is the McEwen and Werritty paper if you can get access (on researchgate?).

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muckle_Spate
    If you ever go down to the Findhorn at Randolph's Leap, there are market stones for how high the water got. The river filled the whole gorge.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,476
    Eabhal said:

    Carnyx said:

    Disaster #8 for @Leon ??


    Eric Holthaus
    @EricHolthaus
    This is one of the extreme climate disasters I'm most worried about.

    A California megaflood would be the world's first $1 trillion weather disaster, and could displace millions of people.

    Climate change greatly increases the chances of intense rainfall events.

    https://twitter.com/EricHolthaus/status/1558185394298146821

    California 2050 = Channeled Scablands II ?

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missoula_floods

    The Yellowstone supervolcano erupting is more likely. The Toba supervolcano eruption on Sumatra, 74,000 years ago, triggered a 6- to 10-year global winter that nearly wiped out the nascent human race.
    He may be thinking of this rather than the Scablands (amazing as they are) -

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Flood_of_1862

    BTW did you ever read of the Moray flood of 1829? Lauder's book is great and is online, and so is the McEwen and Werritty paper if you can get access (on researchgate?).

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muckle_Spate
    If you ever go down to the Findhorn at Randolph's Leap, there are market stones for how high the water got. The river filled the whole gorge.
    Oh, that's interesting - not been there yet, but a colleague has been showing me photos of the gorge (didn't mention the stones).
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,109
    Unintentionally hilarious...

    My train journey today: "Sorry, we have no driver." Also today, no trains AT ALL on many lines. Next week, three days of strike chaos.
    What an absolute shit show this country is right now. Here's hoping @trussliz gets us back on track

    https://twitter.com/IsabelOakeshott/status/1558364817752211456
  • On the Spectator piece, whilst it nails just how pointless this government is, I can't help feel a little sorry for the party.

    The problem isn't the Tory party, its the voters. People want contradictory things but refuse to accept there is a contradiction. A series of events have empowered them to believe their genuine ignorance on a subject holds the same weight as actual knowledge and experience. They aren't wrong, the experts are wrong.

    People don't understand their problems so can't ask for solutions. So they tie the politicians up in knots, demanding solutions they can't have for problems they utterly misunderstand. Tories - and Labour for that matter - have to sing stupid songs because that has become the only way to get elected.

    There is a way through though - find us a new Blair or Thatcher, someone who does know what they are talking about and has political umph. People said "that is Boris" but as all but the remaining holdouts now accept Boris stood for nothing, with no great policies delivered and settled in his time.

    Is there such a politician?

    Good morning

    Excellent comment highlighting the impossibility of governing in this moment in time

    It is not just the conservatives or labour, but nobody has a solution to the intractable problems facing not only the UK but Europe and beyond
    I wouldn't go as far as that. Many other countries manage the basics. The UK is sliding into a pit where we can't keep the lights on or hospitals staffed or basic services delivered. Despite record taxes being levied.

    We're getting to the point where some people now recognise things are broken, but have a reason that simply is wrong and a solution that is mad - "nationalise everything" etc etc. Others think everything is great and the only people complaining are the "other" - the woke, the remoaners, the lefties etc etc.
    Listening to the economic armageddon engulfing Europe at present with the Rhine at such low levels shipping is grinding to a halt, France struggling with its nuclear power stations and EDF seeking 8.5 billion euro compensation, Norway shortage of water is threatening their energy exports, and high rates of inflation all adds to the crisis
    Yup. The global economy is in a Bad Way. But are France, Spain, Germany etc in the same mess we are? As in struggling to provide basic services? As in providing no substantial help to people really struggling with bills? The answer is no.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,109
    Eabhal said:

    If you ever go down to the Findhorn at Randolph's Leap, there are market stones for how high the water got. The river filled the whole gorge.

    The recent droughts in Europe once again made visible the "Hunger Stones" in some Czech and German rivers. These stones were used to mark desperately low river levels that would forecast famines.

    This one, in the Elbe river, is from 1616 and says: "If you see me, cry"
    https://twitter.com/Citizen09372364/status/1557665431888056320/photo/1
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,109
    NEW: @BloombergUK Saturday read on the Tory summer from hell

    Cabinet ministers, MPs and officials fear weeks of zombie govt on cost of living — plus a long, bitter and out of touch leadership contest — will do irreparable damage to the party’s standing

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-08-13/uk-conservatives-fear-fallout-from-sunak-truss-attacks
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,547
    The sort of kit the Ukrainians are cobbling together: quite cool really.

    https://twitter.com/bayraktar_1love/status/1558180748611522564
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,860
    edited August 2022
    Scott_xP said:

    Unintentionally hilarious...

    My train journey today: "Sorry, we have no driver." Also today, no trains AT ALL on many lines. Next week, three days of strike chaos.
    What an absolute shit show this country is right now. Here's hoping @trussliz gets us back on track

    https://twitter.com/IsabelOakeshott/status/1558364817752211456

    Oakeshott always was one sandwich short of a picnic, but that's not a bad pun.
  • On the Spectator piece, whilst it nails just how pointless this government is, I can't help feel a little sorry for the party.

    The problem isn't the Tory party, its the voters. People want contradictory things but refuse to accept there is a contradiction. A series of events have empowered them to believe their genuine ignorance on a subject holds the same weight as actual knowledge and experience. They aren't wrong, the experts are wrong.

    People don't understand their problems so can't ask for solutions. So they tie the politicians up in knots, demanding solutions they can't have for problems they utterly misunderstand. Tories - and Labour for that matter - have to sing stupid songs because that has become the only way to get elected.

    There is a way through though - find us a new Blair or Thatcher, someone who does know what they are talking about and has political umph. People said "that is Boris" but as all but the remaining holdouts now accept Boris stood for nothing, with no great policies delivered and settled in his time.

    Is there such a politician?

    Rory Stewart was the closest up and coming young politician willing to take the approach, with the potential gravitas and knowledge to back it up.

    Jess Phillips has a bit of it about her as well but less convinced she could deliver.
    I'm not convinced Jess has either the understanding or the gravitas.
  • Scott_xP said:

    Unintentionally hilarious...

    My train journey today: "Sorry, we have no driver." Also today, no trains AT ALL on many lines. Next week, three days of strike chaos.
    What an absolute shit show this country is right now. Here's hoping @trussliz gets us back on track

    https://twitter.com/IsabelOakeshott/status/1558364817752211456

    Day 1. Mistress Truss appoints someone smart as Transport Secretary. "Stop the drivers striking so the trains can run to Manchester" she says.
    "I'm sorry prime minister, they aren't actually on strike. They are working their contracted hours".
    "No, that can't be right. We all agreed we would end their commie strike and send them back to work".
    "But they are at work Prime Minister. There just aren't enough of them"
    "And whose fault is that?"
    "The Department for Transport"
    Etc
  • On the Spectator piece, whilst it nails just how pointless this government is, I can't help feel a little sorry for the party.

    The problem isn't the Tory party, its the voters. People want contradictory things but refuse to accept there is a contradiction. A series of events have empowered them to believe their genuine ignorance on a subject holds the same weight as actual knowledge and experience. They aren't wrong, the experts are wrong.

    People don't understand their problems so can't ask for solutions. So they tie the politicians up in knots, demanding solutions they can't have for problems they utterly misunderstand. Tories - and Labour for that matter - have to sing stupid songs because that has become the only way to get elected.

    There is a way through though - find us a new Blair or Thatcher, someone who does know what they are talking about and has political umph. People said "that is Boris" but as all but the remaining holdouts now accept Boris stood for nothing, with no great policies delivered and settled in his time.

    Is there such a politician?

    Excellent post, and I agree with everything.

    The classic for me is a refusal to see that good services cost money. For all that Teresa Mays attempt to do something about social care was ham fisted, at least it was an attempt. And what happened? Millions reacted in horror at the thought of not being able to pass on some of their inheritance to their kids. No sense of community. No understanding that when a care worker comes in four times a day it costs money.
    I’m lucky. I don’t need an inheritance, but will likely get decent ones when my folks and my mother in law pass away ((hopefully a long time in the future). But if that money has had to go into care spending so be it. Much of it will have been ‘earned’ by house price inflation, so it’s not even being taxed twice on the same income, as so many bewail.
    The nation needs a serious discussion about what it wants to be. Perhaps opposition for the Tories might help start this. I’m yet to be impressed that Starmer has a vision other than being a ‘straight kinda guy’, if he’s even that.
    The classic for me is a refusal to see that good services cost money.

    Its 'people like them' who should be paying.

    And its not just good services which people think they're entitled to.

    Its rising house values and increasing consumer spending and whatever else suits their needs and desires.

    A decade ago I predicted it wouldn't be long before the upper middle classes believed themselves entitled to unlimited cheap, servile domestic skivvies:

    https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/medialse/2021/06/21/how-mumsnet-discussions-about-domestic-cleaners-still-keep-them-invisible/
  • Scott_xP said:

    The problem isn't the Tory party, its the voters. People want contradictory things but refuse to accept there is a contradiction. A series of events have empowered them to believe their genuine ignorance on a subject holds the same weight as actual knowledge and experience. They aren't wrong, the experts are wrong.

    There is a way through though - find us a new Blair or Thatcher, someone who does know what they are talking about and has political umph. People said "that is Boris" but as all but the remaining holdouts now accept Boris stood for nothing, with no great policies delivered and settled in his time.

    Ummm, BoZo was the politician more than any other in my lifetime that told voters they could have contradictory things. Denied the contradictions. That experts were to be derided.

    He was the problem
    The fact his opponents failed to make their case shows how poor they were
    Not entirely.

    If you are in a debate with someone shameless and dishonest enough, it can be really hard to persuade an audience.

    It tends to go this;

    BORIS-ALIKE Something involving cake and eat it

    RORY-ALIKE (because he at least tried) That's not possible- once you have eaten your cake, it's gone...

    BORIS-ALIKE There you go, with your doomy gloomy negativity. Remember we are Great Britain! We are being held back by your fears... (Continues ad nauseum.)

    Boris style cakeism is a really attractive prospectus. It's awfully hard to argue against, because deep down we want it to be true, and want to believe that there's some meanie stopping it being true for us. That's been the case since the apple/snake/Eve fiasco in Genesis.

    It would have been better for the UK had someone successfully argued us out of Borisism, but I'm not convinced that was possible.

    It would have been better for the Conservatives and the UK to have not fallen for Borisism, but that required human nature to be something it isn't.

    The culpability for (gestures round) all of this belongs with the clique who proposed it, who lied to the public about it, who smeared and deposed those who questioned it.

    Not particularly with those who fell for it, and certainly not with those who did their best to argue against it.

    Unless you had a better plan to argue against Boris, in which case I'm all ears.
    That is the problem. Rishi is trying to argue for reality and is being howled down.

    Again, ignorance has been weaponised to be a virtue. How to tell ignorant people that actually they are wrong?
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,987
    Factionalism and zealotry as a virtue dates back at least to the Peloponnesian War.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,337
    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    On the Spectator piece, whilst it nails just how pointless this government is, I can't help feel a little sorry for the party.

    The problem isn't the Tory party, its the voters. People want contradictory things but refuse to accept there is a contradiction. A series of events have empowered them to believe their genuine ignorance on a subject holds the same weight as actual knowledge and experience. They aren't wrong, the experts are wrong.

    People don't understand their problems so can't ask for solutions. So they tie the politicians up in knots, demanding solutions they can't have for problems they utterly misunderstand. Tories - and Labour for that matter - have to sing stupid songs because that has become the only way to get elected.

    There is a way through though - find us a new Blair or Thatcher, someone who does know what they are talking about and has political umph. People said "that is Boris" but as all but the remaining holdouts now accept Boris stood for nothing, with no great policies delivered and settled in his time.

    Is there such a politician?

    Good morning

    Excellent comment highlighting the impossibility of governing in this moment in time

    It is not just the conservatives or labour, but nobody has a solution to the intractable problems facing not only the UK but Europe and beyond
    I wouldn't go as far as that. Many other countries manage the basics. The UK is sliding into a pit where we can't keep the lights on or hospitals staffed or basic services delivered. Despite record taxes being levied.

    We're getting to the point where some people now recognise things are broken, but have a reason that simply is wrong and a solution that is mad - "nationalise everything" etc etc. Others think everything is great and the only people complaining are the "other" - the woke, the remoaners, the lefties etc etc.
    Listening to the economic armageddon engulfing Europe at present with the Rhine at such low levels shipping is grinding to a halt, France struggling with its nuclear power stations and EDF seeking 8.5 billion euro compensation, Norway shortage of water is threatening their energy exports, and high rates of inflation all adds to the crisis
    So it's all right for us to add Brexit to everything else, is it
    Brexit is not helping but is far from the only issue and certainly is irrelevant to the problems Europe are facing
    We ARE in Europe. You mean the EU, and Brexit sure is irrelevant to their problems. It's not one of their problems!
    This argument is self-defeating. Brexit meant the EU lost a significant portion of its internal market. If you believe that's not a problem for the EU, then you can't be much of a believer in the single market.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,109

    Again, ignorance has been weaponised to be a virtue. How to tell ignorant people that actually they are wrong?

    We have had enough of experts
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,064

    On the Spectator piece, whilst it nails just how pointless this government is, I can't help feel a little sorry for the party.

    The problem isn't the Tory party, its the voters. People want contradictory things but refuse to accept there is a contradiction. A series of events have empowered them to believe their genuine ignorance on a subject holds the same weight as actual knowledge and experience. They aren't wrong, the experts are wrong.

    People don't understand their problems so can't ask for solutions. So they tie the politicians up in knots, demanding solutions they can't have for problems they utterly misunderstand. Tories - and Labour for that matter - have to sing stupid songs because that has become the only way to get elected.

    There is a way through though - find us a new Blair or Thatcher, someone who does know what they are talking about and has political umph. People said "that is Boris" but as all but the remaining holdouts now accept Boris stood for nothing, with no great policies delivered and settled in his time.

    Is there such a politician?

    Good morning

    Excellent comment highlighting the impossibility of governing in this moment in time

    It is not just the conservatives or labour, but nobody has a solution to the intractable problems facing not only the UK but Europe and beyond
    I wouldn't go as far as that. Many other countries manage the basics. The UK is sliding into a pit where we can't keep the lights on or hospitals staffed or basic services delivered. Despite record taxes being levied.

    We're getting to the point where some people now recognise things are broken, but have a reason that simply is wrong and a solution that is mad - "nationalise everything" etc etc. Others think everything is great and the only people complaining are the "other" - the woke, the remoaners, the lefties etc etc.
    Listening to the economic armageddon engulfing Europe at present with the Rhine at such low levels shipping is grinding to a halt, France struggling with its nuclear power stations and EDF seeking 8.5 billion euro compensation, Norway shortage of water is threatening their energy exports, and high rates of inflation all adds to the crisis
    Yup. The global economy is in a Bad Way. But are France, Spain, Germany etc in the same mess we are? As in struggling to provide basic services? As in providing no substantial help to people really struggling with bills? The answer is no.
    I think you should speak to people from these countries first. Loads of the continental Europeans I work with have said their families back home are basically in the same place we are. Not able to meet electricity bills, other costs surging, no respite from the heat, expectations of food shortages because of the prolonged drought, water shortages and smaller villages running dry.

    What's happening here is happening all across Europe, we just don't hear about it because their news isn't in English.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,476

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    On the Spectator piece, whilst it nails just how pointless this government is, I can't help feel a little sorry for the party.

    The problem isn't the Tory party, its the voters. People want contradictory things but refuse to accept there is a contradiction. A series of events have empowered them to believe their genuine ignorance on a subject holds the same weight as actual knowledge and experience. They aren't wrong, the experts are wrong.

    People don't understand their problems so can't ask for solutions. So they tie the politicians up in knots, demanding solutions they can't have for problems they utterly misunderstand. Tories - and Labour for that matter - have to sing stupid songs because that has become the only way to get elected.

    There is a way through though - find us a new Blair or Thatcher, someone who does know what they are talking about and has political umph. People said "that is Boris" but as all but the remaining holdouts now accept Boris stood for nothing, with no great policies delivered and settled in his time.

    Is there such a politician?

    Good morning

    Excellent comment highlighting the impossibility of governing in this moment in time

    It is not just the conservatives or labour, but nobody has a solution to the intractable problems facing not only the UK but Europe and beyond
    I wouldn't go as far as that. Many other countries manage the basics. The UK is sliding into a pit where we can't keep the lights on or hospitals staffed or basic services delivered. Despite record taxes being levied.

    We're getting to the point where some people now recognise things are broken, but have a reason that simply is wrong and a solution that is mad - "nationalise everything" etc etc. Others think everything is great and the only people complaining are the "other" - the woke, the remoaners, the lefties etc etc.
    Listening to the economic armageddon engulfing Europe at present with the Rhine at such low levels shipping is grinding to a halt, France struggling with its nuclear power stations and EDF seeking 8.5 billion euro compensation, Norway shortage of water is threatening their energy exports, and high rates of inflation all adds to the crisis
    So it's all right for us to add Brexit to everything else, is it
    Brexit is not helping but is far from the only issue and certainly is irrelevant to the problems Europe are facing
    We ARE in Europe. You mean the EU, and Brexit sure is irrelevant to their problems. It's not one of their problems!
    This argument is self-defeating. Brexit meant the EU lost a significant portion of its internal market. If you believe that's not a problem for the EU, then you can't be much of a believer in the single market.
    Asymmetry,, though. UK lost almost all. EU lost only a part: not small but not large.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,759
    edited August 2022

    Scott_xP said:

    Unintentionally hilarious...

    My train journey today: "Sorry, we have no driver." Also today, no trains AT ALL on many lines. Next week, three days of strike chaos.
    What an absolute shit show this country is right now. Here's hoping @trussliz gets us back on track

    https://twitter.com/IsabelOakeshott/status/1558364817752211456

    Day 1. Mistress Truss appoints someone smart as Transport Secretary. "Stop the drivers striking so the trains can run to Manchester" she says.
    "I'm sorry prime minister, they aren't actually on strike. They are working their contracted hours".
    "No, that can't be right. We all agreed we would end their commie strike and send them back to work".
    "But they are at work Prime Minister. There just aren't enough of them"
    "And whose fault is that?"
    "The Department for Transport"
    Etc
    Can't, realistically anyway, argue that it, whatever it was, was the fault of the Labour government, either!

    So far as I am aware, no one has yet tried to argue that 'it' was the fault of LibDem ministers during the coalition years!
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,476

    Scott_xP said:

    The problem isn't the Tory party, its the voters. People want contradictory things but refuse to accept there is a contradiction. A series of events have empowered them to believe their genuine ignorance on a subject holds the same weight as actual knowledge and experience. They aren't wrong, the experts are wrong.

    There is a way through though - find us a new Blair or Thatcher, someone who does know what they are talking about and has political umph. People said "that is Boris" but as all but the remaining holdouts now accept Boris stood for nothing, with no great policies delivered and settled in his time.

    Ummm, BoZo was the politician more than any other in my lifetime that told voters they could have contradictory things. Denied the contradictions. That experts were to be derided.

    He was the problem
    The fact his opponents failed to make their case shows how poor they were
    Not entirely.

    If you are in a debate with someone shameless and dishonest enough, it can be really hard to persuade an audience.

    It tends to go this;

    BORIS-ALIKE Something involving cake and eat it

    RORY-ALIKE (because he at least tried) That's not possible- once you have eaten your cake, it's gone...

    BORIS-ALIKE There you go, with your doomy gloomy negativity. Remember we are Great Britain! We are being held back by your fears... (Continues ad nauseum.)

    Boris style cakeism is a really attractive prospectus. It's awfully hard to argue against, because deep down we want it to be true, and want to believe that there's some meanie stopping it being true for us. That's been the case since the apple/snake/Eve fiasco in Genesis.

    It would have been better for the UK had someone successfully argued us out of Borisism, but I'm not convinced that was possible.

    It would have been better for the Conservatives and the UK to have not fallen for Borisism, but that required human nature to be something it isn't.

    The culpability for (gestures round) all of this belongs with the clique who proposed it, who lied to the public about it, who smeared and deposed those who questioned it.

    Not particularly with those who fell for it, and certainly not with those who did their best to argue against it.

    Unless you had a better plan to argue against Boris, in which case I'm all ears.
    And unless he didn't vote for the Conservatives when Mr Johnson was their leader.
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 3,948

    Scott_xP said:

    The problem isn't the Tory party, its the voters. People want contradictory things but refuse to accept there is a contradiction. A series of events have empowered them to believe their genuine ignorance on a subject holds the same weight as actual knowledge and experience. They aren't wrong, the experts are wrong.

    There is a way through though - find us a new Blair or Thatcher, someone who does know what they are talking about and has political umph. People said "that is Boris" but as all but the remaining holdouts now accept Boris stood for nothing, with no great policies delivered and settled in his time.

    Ummm, BoZo was the politician more than any other in my lifetime that told voters they could have contradictory things. Denied the contradictions. That experts were to be derided.

    He was the problem
    The fact his opponents failed to make their case shows how poor they were
    Not entirely.

    If you are in a debate with someone shameless and dishonest enough, it can be really hard to persuade an audience.

    It tends to go this;

    BORIS-ALIKE Something involving cake and eat it

    RORY-ALIKE (because he at least tried) That's not possible- once you have eaten your cake, it's gone...

    BORIS-ALIKE There you go, with your doomy gloomy negativity. Remember we are Great Britain! We are being held back by your fears... (Continues ad nauseum.)

    Boris style cakeism is a really attractive prospectus. It's awfully hard to argue against, because deep down we want it to be true, and want to believe that there's some meanie stopping it being true for us. That's been the case since the apple/snake/Eve fiasco in Genesis.

    It would have been better for the UK had someone successfully argued us out of Borisism, but I'm not convinced that was possible.

    It would have been better for the Conservatives and the UK to have not fallen for Borisism, but that required human nature to be something it isn't.

    The culpability for (gestures round) all of this belongs with the clique who proposed it, who lied to the public about it, who smeared and deposed those who questioned it.

    Not particularly with those who fell for it, and certainly not with those who did their best to argue against it.

    Unless you had a better plan to argue against Boris, in which case I'm all ears.
    That is the problem. Rishi is trying to argue for reality and is being howled down.

    Again, ignorance has been weaponised to be a virtue. How to tell ignorant people that actually they are wrong?
    That's democracy for you. The votes of the uneducated and ignorant are equal in value to the votes of the experts.
  • Scott_xP said:

    The problem isn't the Tory party, its the voters. People want contradictory things but refuse to accept there is a contradiction. A series of events have empowered them to believe their genuine ignorance on a subject holds the same weight as actual knowledge and experience. They aren't wrong, the experts are wrong.

    There is a way through though - find us a new Blair or Thatcher, someone who does know what they are talking about and has political umph. People said "that is Boris" but as all but the remaining holdouts now accept Boris stood for nothing, with no great policies delivered and settled in his time.

    Ummm, BoZo was the politician more than any other in my lifetime that told voters they could have contradictory things. Denied the contradictions. That experts were to be derided.

    He was the problem
    The fact his opponents failed to make their case shows how poor they were
    Not entirely.

    If you are in a debate with someone shameless and dishonest enough, it can be really hard to persuade an audience.

    It tends to go this;

    BORIS-ALIKE Something involving cake and eat it

    RORY-ALIKE (because he at least tried) That's not possible- once you have eaten your cake, it's gone...

    BORIS-ALIKE There you go, with your doomy gloomy negativity. Remember we are Great Britain! We are being held back by your fears... (Continues ad nauseum.)

    Boris style cakeism is a really attractive prospectus. It's awfully hard to argue against, because deep down we want it to be true, and want to believe that there's some meanie stopping it being true for us. That's been the case since the apple/snake/Eve fiasco in Genesis.

    It would have been better for the UK had someone successfully argued us out of Borisism, but I'm not convinced that was possible.

    It would have been better for the Conservatives and the UK to have not fallen for Borisism, but that required human nature to be something it isn't.

    The culpability for (gestures round) all of this belongs with the clique who proposed it, who lied to the public about it, who smeared and deposed those who questioned it.

    Not particularly with those who fell for it, and certainly not with those who did their best to argue against it.

    Unless you had a better plan to argue against Boris, in which case I'm all ears.
    That is the problem. Rishi is trying to argue for reality and is being howled down.

    Again, ignorance has been weaponised to be a virtue. How to tell ignorant people that actually they are wrong?
    With difficulty. Nobody likes being told they are wrong. Which makes it tricky when politics is partly/largely a personal popularity competition.

    What tends to happen here is that countries with bad government fail. If they are lucky, moderately bad failure is enough to make the point. If they are unlucky, they end up like Argentina.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,690
    edited August 2022

    Scott_xP said:

    The problem isn't the Tory party, its the voters. People want contradictory things but refuse to accept there is a contradiction. A series of events have empowered them to believe their genuine ignorance on a subject holds the same weight as actual knowledge and experience. They aren't wrong, the experts are wrong.

    There is a way through though - find us a new Blair or Thatcher, someone who does know what they are talking about and has political umph. People said "that is Boris" but as all but the remaining holdouts now accept Boris stood for nothing, with no great policies delivered and settled in his time.

    Ummm, BoZo was the politician more than any other in my lifetime that told voters they could have contradictory things. Denied the contradictions. That experts were to be derided.

    He was the problem
    The fact his opponents failed to make their case shows how poor they were
    Not entirely.

    If you are in a debate with someone shameless and dishonest enough, it can be really hard to persuade an audience.

    It tends to go this;

    BORIS-ALIKE Something involving cake and eat it

    RORY-ALIKE (because he at least tried) That's not possible- once you have eaten your cake, it's gone...

    BORIS-ALIKE There you go, with your doomy gloomy negativity. Remember we are Great Britain! We are being held back by your fears... (Continues ad nauseum.)

    Boris style cakeism is a really attractive prospectus. It's awfully hard to argue against, because deep down we want it to be true, and want to believe that there's some meanie stopping it being true for us. That's been the case since the apple/snake/Eve fiasco in Genesis.

    It would have been better for the UK had someone successfully argued us out of Borisism, but I'm not convinced that was possible.

    It would have been better for the Conservatives and the UK to have not fallen for Borisism, but that required human nature to be something it isn't.

    The culpability for (gestures round) all of this belongs with the clique who proposed it, who lied to the public about it, who smeared and deposed those who questioned it.

    Not particularly with those who fell for it, and certainly not with those who did their best to argue against it.

    Unless you had a better plan to argue against Boris, in which case I'm all ears.
    It wasn't just in the referendum vote that remainers failed, it was their determination to see it fail in the HOC rather than act constructively that contributed to where we are today and sadly the extreme views of both sides continue to impede the path to a sensible compromise
  • A Government with 80 seat majority should be reforming and impactful but they seem to somehow have achieved less than May.

    Blair achieved peace in Northern Ireland, setup devolved governments, introduced a minimum wage amongst many other things.

    I’ve said this since day one, the current Tory Party is good at winning but utterly hopeless at actually doing anything!
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,337

    Scott_xP said:

    The problem isn't the Tory party, its the voters. People want contradictory things but refuse to accept there is a contradiction. A series of events have empowered them to believe their genuine ignorance on a subject holds the same weight as actual knowledge and experience. They aren't wrong, the experts are wrong.

    There is a way through though - find us a new Blair or Thatcher, someone who does know what they are talking about and has political umph. People said "that is Boris" but as all but the remaining holdouts now accept Boris stood for nothing, with no great policies delivered and settled in his time.

    Ummm, BoZo was the politician more than any other in my lifetime that told voters they could have contradictory things. Denied the contradictions. That experts were to be derided.

    He was the problem
    The fact his opponents failed to make their case shows how poor they were
    Not entirely.

    If you are in a debate with someone shameless and dishonest enough, it can be really hard to persuade an audience.

    It tends to go this;

    BORIS-ALIKE Something involving cake and eat it

    RORY-ALIKE (because he at least tried) That's not possible- once you have eaten your cake, it's gone...

    BORIS-ALIKE There you go, with your doomy gloomy negativity. Remember we are Great Britain! We are being held back by your fears... (Continues ad nauseum.)

    Boris style cakeism is a really attractive prospectus. It's awfully hard to argue against, because deep down we want it to be true, and want to believe that there's some meanie stopping it being true for us. That's been the case since the apple/snake/Eve fiasco in Genesis.

    It would have been better for the UK had someone successfully argued us out of Borisism, but I'm not convinced that was possible.

    It would have been better for the Conservatives and the UK to have not fallen for Borisism, but that required human nature to be something it isn't.

    The culpability for (gestures round) all of this belongs with the clique who proposed it, who lied to the public about it, who smeared and deposed those who questioned it.

    Not particularly with those who fell for it, and certainly not with those who did their best to argue against it.

    Unless you had a better plan to argue against Boris, in which case I'm all ears.
    That is the problem. Rishi is trying to argue for reality and is being howled down.

    Again, ignorance has been weaponised to be a virtue. How to tell ignorant people that actually they are wrong?
    Rishi is arguing in favour of a hard Brexit, tearing up the NI protocol, and deporting refugees to Rwanda. You're obviously just a sucker for anyone who talks like Tony Blair.
  • Carnyx said:

    Scott_xP said:

    The problem isn't the Tory party, its the voters. People want contradictory things but refuse to accept there is a contradiction. A series of events have empowered them to believe their genuine ignorance on a subject holds the same weight as actual knowledge and experience. They aren't wrong, the experts are wrong.

    There is a way through though - find us a new Blair or Thatcher, someone who does know what they are talking about and has political umph. People said "that is Boris" but as all but the remaining holdouts now accept Boris stood for nothing, with no great policies delivered and settled in his time.

    Ummm, BoZo was the politician more than any other in my lifetime that told voters they could have contradictory things. Denied the contradictions. That experts were to be derided.

    He was the problem
    The fact his opponents failed to make their case shows how poor they were
    Not entirely.

    If you are in a debate with someone shameless and dishonest enough, it can be really hard to persuade an audience.

    It tends to go this;

    BORIS-ALIKE Something involving cake and eat it

    RORY-ALIKE (because he at least tried) That's not possible- once you have eaten your cake, it's gone...

    BORIS-ALIKE There you go, with your doomy gloomy negativity. Remember we are Great Britain! We are being held back by your fears... (Continues ad nauseum.)

    Boris style cakeism is a really attractive prospectus. It's awfully hard to argue against, because deep down we want it to be true, and want to believe that there's some meanie stopping it being true for us. That's been the case since the apple/snake/Eve fiasco in Genesis.

    It would have been better for the UK had someone successfully argued us out of Borisism, but I'm not convinced that was possible.

    It would have been better for the Conservatives and the UK to have not fallen for Borisism, but that required human nature to be something it isn't.

    The culpability for (gestures round) all of this belongs with the clique who proposed it, who lied to the public about it, who smeared and deposed those who questioned it.

    Not particularly with those who fell for it, and certainly not with those who did their best to argue against it.

    Unless you had a better plan to argue against Boris, in which case I'm all ears.
    And unless he didn't vote for the Conservatives when Mr Johnson was their leader.
    I want to make this clear

    I supported Johnson on brexit, covid and Ukraine but he lost me from Paterson onwards

    Starmer would have had our economy in lockdown forever if he could, and it is to Johnson's credit he opened the economy when he did
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,963

    Scott_xP said:

    The problem isn't the Tory party, its the voters. People want contradictory things but refuse to accept there is a contradiction. A series of events have empowered them to believe their genuine ignorance on a subject holds the same weight as actual knowledge and experience. They aren't wrong, the experts are wrong.

    There is a way through though - find us a new Blair or Thatcher, someone who does know what they are talking about and has political umph. People said "that is Boris" but as all but the remaining holdouts now accept Boris stood for nothing, with no great policies delivered and settled in his time.

    Ummm, BoZo was the politician more than any other in my lifetime that told voters they could have contradictory things. Denied the contradictions. That experts were to be derided.

    He was the problem
    The fact his opponents failed to make their case shows how poor they were
    Not entirely.

    If you are in a debate with someone shameless and dishonest enough, it can be really hard to persuade an audience.

    It tends to go this;

    BORIS-ALIKE Something involving cake and eat it

    RORY-ALIKE (because he at least tried) That's not possible- once you have eaten your cake, it's gone...

    BORIS-ALIKE There you go, with your doomy gloomy negativity. Remember we are Great Britain! We are being held back by your fears... (Continues ad nauseum.)

    Boris style cakeism is a really attractive prospectus. It's awfully hard to argue against, because deep down we want it to be true, and want to believe that there's some meanie stopping it being true for us. That's been the case since the apple/snake/Eve fiasco in Genesis.

    It would have been better for the UK had someone successfully argued us out of Borisism, but I'm not convinced that was possible.

    It would have been better for the Conservatives and the UK to have not fallen for Borisism, but that required human nature to be something it isn't.

    The culpability for (gestures round) all of this belongs with the clique who proposed it, who lied to the public about it, who smeared and deposed those who questioned it.

    Not particularly with those who fell for it, and certainly not with those who did their best to argue against it.

    Unless you had a better plan to argue against Boris, in which case I'm all ears.
    It wasn't just in the referendum vote that remainers failed, it was their determination to see it fail in the HOC rather than act constructively that contributed to where we are today and sadly the extreme views of both sides continue to impede the path to a sensible compromise
    With regard to Brexit, both May and Johnson ploughed their own wrong-headed furrows. There was no discussion, there was no compromise it was my way or the highway, and here we are! Brexit is done, in name only.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,760

    On the Spectator piece, whilst it nails just how pointless this government is, I can't help feel a little sorry for the party.

    The problem isn't the Tory party, its the voters. People want contradictory things but refuse to accept there is a contradiction. A series of events have empowered them to believe their genuine ignorance on a subject holds the same weight as actual knowledge and experience. They aren't wrong, the experts are wrong.

    People don't understand their problems so can't ask for solutions. So they tie the politicians up in knots, demanding solutions they can't have for problems they utterly misunderstand. Tories - and Labour for that matter - have to sing stupid songs because that has become the only way to get elected.

    There is a way through though - find us a new Blair or Thatcher, someone who does know what they are talking about and has political umph. People said "that is Boris" but as all but the remaining holdouts now accept Boris stood for nothing, with no great policies delivered and settled in his time.

    Is there such a politician?

    Excellent post, and I agree with everything.

    The classic for me is a refusal to see that good services cost money. For all that Teresa Mays attempt to do something about social care was ham fisted, at least it was an attempt. And what happened? Millions reacted in horror at the thought of not being able to pass on some of their inheritance to their kids. No sense of community. No understanding that when a care worker comes in four times a day it costs money.
    I’m lucky. I don’t need an inheritance, but will likely get decent ones when my folks and my mother in law pass away ((hopefully a long time in the future). But if that money has had to go into care spending so be it. Much of it will have been ‘earned’ by house price inflation, so it’s not even being taxed twice on the same income, as so many bewail.
    The nation needs a serious discussion about what it wants to be. Perhaps opposition for the Tories might help start this. I’m yet to be impressed that Starmer has a vision other than being a ‘straight kinda guy’, if he’s even that.
    I think we're approaching a choice. Either find a way of taxing wealth or downgrade our expectations of what the state should provide for us.
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 3,948

    Scott_xP said:

    Unintentionally hilarious...

    My train journey today: "Sorry, we have no driver." Also today, no trains AT ALL on many lines. Next week, three days of strike chaos.
    What an absolute shit show this country is right now. Here's hoping @trussliz gets us back on track

    https://twitter.com/IsabelOakeshott/status/1558364817752211456

    Day 1. Mistress Truss appoints someone smart as Transport Secretary. "Stop the drivers striking so the trains can run to Manchester" she says.
    "I'm sorry prime minister, they aren't actually on strike. They are working their contracted hours".
    "No, that can't be right. We all agreed we would end their commie strike and send them back to work".
    "But they are at work Prime Minister. There just aren't enough of them"
    "And whose fault is that?"
    "The Department for Transport"
    Etc
    Can't, realistically anyway, argue that it, whatever it was, was the fault of the Labour government, either!

    So far as I am aware, no one has yet tried to argue that 'it' was the fault of LibDem ministers during the coalition years!
    ...give it time...

    it'll be Postman Pat's and Dangermouse's fault soon.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,109

    I wondered when Brexit would become the remainers fault.

    It has always been the remainers fault.

    We have always been at war with Eastasia
  • Scott_xP said:

    Unintentionally hilarious...

    My train journey today: "Sorry, we have no driver." Also today, no trains AT ALL on many lines. Next week, three days of strike chaos.
    What an absolute shit show this country is right now. Here's hoping @trussliz gets us back on track

    https://twitter.com/IsabelOakeshott/status/1558364817752211456

    Day 1. Mistress Truss appoints someone smart as Transport Secretary. "Stop the drivers striking so the trains can run to Manchester" she says.
    "I'm sorry prime minister, they aren't actually on strike. They are working their contracted hours".
    "No, that can't be right. We all agreed we would end their commie strike and send them back to work".
    "But they are at work Prime Minister. There just aren't enough of them"
    "And whose fault is that?"
    "The Department for Transport"
    Etc
    Can't, realistically anyway, argue that it, whatever it was, was the fault of the Labour government, either!

    So far as I am aware, no one has yet tried to argue that 'it' was the fault of LibDem ministers during the coalition years!
    Actually Davey was attacked recently for his time in coalition as energy and climate change Secretary from 2012-2015
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,963
    kinabalu said:

    On the Spectator piece, whilst it nails just how pointless this government is, I can't help feel a little sorry for the party.

    The problem isn't the Tory party, its the voters. People want contradictory things but refuse to accept there is a contradiction. A series of events have empowered them to believe their genuine ignorance on a subject holds the same weight as actual knowledge and experience. They aren't wrong, the experts are wrong.

    People don't understand their problems so can't ask for solutions. So they tie the politicians up in knots, demanding solutions they can't have for problems they utterly misunderstand. Tories - and Labour for that matter - have to sing stupid songs because that has become the only way to get elected.

    There is a way through though - find us a new Blair or Thatcher, someone who does know what they are talking about and has political umph. People said "that is Boris" but as all but the remaining holdouts now accept Boris stood for nothing, with no great policies delivered and settled in his time.

    Is there such a politician?

    I am not sure I agree. Blair and Thatcher came with their own baggage and both flattered to deceive.

    What we do need is collegiate Cabinet Government working as a team to resolve the issues of the day. Maybe Sunak could have been your man?

    We don't need Blair, Thatcher blowhards, and we certainly don't need Johnson/Truss.
    I do find a lot to like about Rochdale's analysis there. A politician can't diss the voters but I think it's ok for us. As for who we need - here's a surprising (incl to me) thought. Maybe, just maybe, if what we're looking for is indeed collegiate unfussy 'art of the possible' government, free of all this utter crap of the last few years, then the person to deliver this, or as close as can reasonably be expected, is a certain dull as ditchwater ex DPP with a brutalist haircut by the name of Keir Starmer.
    I was thinking the same, I just didn't want to say his name
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,961
    edited August 2022

    Scott_xP said:

    The problem isn't the Tory party, its the voters. People want contradictory things but refuse to accept there is a contradiction. A series of events have empowered them to believe their genuine ignorance on a subject holds the same weight as actual knowledge and experience. They aren't wrong, the experts are wrong.

    There is a way through though - find us a new Blair or Thatcher, someone who does know what they are talking about and has political umph. People said "that is Boris" but as all but the remaining holdouts now accept Boris stood for nothing, with no great policies delivered and settled in his time.

    Ummm, BoZo was the politician more than any other in my lifetime that told voters they could have contradictory things. Denied the contradictions. That experts were to be derided.

    He was the problem
    The fact his opponents failed to make their case shows how poor they were
    Not entirely.

    If you are in a debate with someone shameless and dishonest enough, it can be really hard to persuade an audience.

    It tends to go this;

    BORIS-ALIKE Something involving cake and eat it

    RORY-ALIKE (because he at least tried) That's not possible- once you have eaten your cake, it's gone...

    BORIS-ALIKE There you go, with your doomy gloomy negativity. Remember we are Great Britain! We are being held back by your fears... (Continues ad nauseum.)

    Boris style cakeism is a really attractive prospectus. It's awfully hard to argue against, because deep down we want it to be true, and want to believe that there's some meanie stopping it being true for us. That's been the case since the apple/snake/Eve fiasco in Genesis.

    It would have been better for the UK had someone successfully argued us out of Borisism, but I'm not convinced that was possible.

    It would have been better for the Conservatives and the UK to have not fallen for Borisism, but that required human nature to be something it isn't.

    The culpability for (gestures round) all of this belongs with the clique who proposed it, who lied to the public about it, who smeared and deposed those who questioned it.

    Not particularly with those who fell for it, and certainly not with those who did their best to argue against it.

    Unless you had a better plan to argue against Boris, in which case I'm all ears.
    That is the problem. Rishi is trying to argue for reality and is being howled down.

    Again, ignorance has been weaponised to be a virtue. How to tell ignorant people that actually they are wrong?
    Rishi isn't being serious. He has his paint-by-numbers scheme to increase NI and winning an election by cutting Income Tax with the money raised from increasing NI.

    In what way is that reality? That's politics as rote-learning, trivial game-playing. It's not doing anything to face the reality.
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,755
    edited August 2022
    Scott_xP said:

    Rory Stewart was the closest up and coming young politician willing to take the approach, with the potential gravitas and knowledge to back it up.

    Jess Phillips has a bit of it about her as well but less convinced she could deliver.

    Rory Stewart, the failed Conservative leadership candidate, and the Labour leader Sir Keir Starmer drew bigger Edinburgh Fringe crowds than Nicola Sturgeon.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/f5ff4648-1a8b-11ed-b1f4-627a202c7457?shareToken=5c0c3c632caac02b05ad9da0839d29d0
    Rory’s self destruction was quite bizarre. It started with that moment when he took his tie off in the middle of the leadership debate. After that he could have either taken a dignified position from the backbenchers like Hunt or Tugendhat and lived to fight another day. Or tried to positively influence policy direction from within Cabinet. But instead he flounced.

    He then came up with a reasonable idea of running for Mayor against Khan. And then he flounced.

    He now makes a reasonable living I guess from being the Gary Neville of politics. A bit of Twitter sarkiness and some podcasting where he works to make it sound like he knows best with everyone else in the world a giant ignoramus in his field. Some would say that Basrah was Stewart’s version of running Valencia, I don’t know enough to say. I did enjoy his book all those years ago and it’s a shame he’s turned to bitter and irrelevance rather than sticking in there.
This discussion has been closed.