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Powerful from Beto O’Rourke – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 11,014
edited August 2022 in General
Powerful from Beto O’Rourke – politicalbetting.com

Wow. After Beto O’Rourke brings up the Uvalde shooting, a man laughs loudly. Beto replies, “It may be funny to you motherfucker, but it’s not funny to me.” pic.twitter.com/Lb5mmGlKlE

Read the full story here

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  • Options
    OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,767
    edited August 2022
    First, and for the first time ever I've actually followed one of Mike's tips

    (So I backed him to be next Pres (370) - easily the better bet. And I backed him in a massive 2 pounds.)

    I think I've followed Mike's wisdom far more than I realise.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,717
    edited August 2022
    Sure it is rude, but good to show humanity in politicians sometimes. If he stays at close to that level seems worth a long punt.

    On topic Labour's leads are modest by historic but I'm not sure how much swingback we'll see when the energy cap hits £5,000.

    I think this is a very good point. The raw situation is not unrecoverable for the Tories in historic terms, but there are a multitude of factors - length of time in office, Red Wall support drop, cost of living, etc - which mean that while it cannot be guaranteed they cannot recover, it will not be easy and blithe assumptions they will autoamtically are pinning a lot on that hope.

  • Options
    Betfair next prime minister
    1.12 Liz Truss 89%
    9.4 Rishi Sunak 11%

    Next Conservative leader
    1.11 Liz Truss 90%
    9.6 Rishi Sunak 10%
  • Options
    Why was someone who thinks dead kids are funny at what looks like a Beto campaign rally in the first place? An open "town hall" event sure..
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    The Beto clip: the laugh comes as Beto describes killing Viet Cong soldiers, not children.
  • Options

    Why was someone who thinks dead kids are funny at what looks like a Beto campaign rally in the first place? An open "town hall" event sure..

    There's an Abbott poster there.
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    kle4 said:

    Sure it is rude, but good to show humanity in politicians sometimes. If he stays at close to that level seems worth a long punt.

    On topic Labour's leads are modest by historic but I'm not sure how much swingback we'll see when the energy cap hits £5,000.

    I think this is a very good point. The raw situation is not unrecoverable for the Tories in historic terms, but there are a multitude of factors - length of time in office, Red Wall support drop, cost of living, etc - which mean that while it cannot be guaranteed they cannot recover, it will not be easy and blithe assumptions they will autoamtically are pinning a lot on that hope.

    Given the terminally stupid think the best way to win the next election is declare war on the woke then it could get much worse for the Tories.

    When people have to worry about choosing between heating or eating focussing your energies on persecuting trans people or changing the uni year means 1997 will look like a good year for the Tories in comparison to the 2024 general election.
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    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,182
    It is this kind of zinger moments that make or break a candidate in America.

    I'm with OGH and taking a nibble at 140 on BF.

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    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,182

    The Beto clip: the laugh comes as Beto describes killing Viet Cong soldiers, not children.

    Details wont matter as it is shared across social media.

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    OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,767
    kle4 said:

    Sure it is rude, but good to show humanity in politicians sometimes. If he stays at close to that level seems worth a long punt.

    On topic Labour's leads are modest by historic but I'm not sure how much swingback we'll see when the energy cap hits £5,000.

    I think this is a very good point. The raw situation is not unrecoverable for the Tories in historic terms, but there are a multitude of factors - length of time in office, Red Wall support drop, cost of living, etc - which mean that while it cannot be guaranteed they cannot recover, it will not be easy and blithe assumptions they will autoamtically are pinning a lot on that hope.

    Truss (or Sunak) will clearly be aiming to achieve some sort of improvement in the polls. Sunak won't achieve much there. Truss might, and just possibly could find an opinion poll lead. And if that happens then a GE is the right call - Starmer is likely to get stronger (slowly) the longer he sticks around.


    So I've bet some vague 10s of pounds on such a thing (i.e. token bets only)
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    FPT.

    On topic Labour's leads are modest by historic but I'm not sure how much swingback we'll see when the energy cap hits £5,000.

    The Red Wall Tory MPs will be in stepmom territory.

    Shouldn't you tell Opinium?
    I have.

    I think they are double counting.
    Still it cheers up the faithful and BJO.
    I may do a piece on Opinium at the next weekend.

    I might get excommunicated by Adam, Chris, and James though.
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    pingping Posts: 3,731
    edited August 2022
    Regarding the previous thread.

    Hate to say I told you so, but…

    I did make the point when Aaron Bell turned on Boris, that he (and by extension, other red wall tories) were making a serious error of judgment.

    My comments were met with universal derision on PB.

    As I said then, either Boris stayed and he put his constituency at the bottom of the pork list - or Boris went, to be replaced by someone favouring the interests of the wealthy SE at the expense of the red wall.

    I was right.
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    The Beto clip: the laugh comes as Beto describes killing Viet Cong soldiers, not children.

    Details wont matter as it is shared across social media.

    Indeed. I'd follow OGH in if I had not already had a flutter, quite possibly from the last time Beto was tipped on pb.
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    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,377

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    https://summit.news/2022/08/08/head-of-the-lancets-covid-19-investigation-is-convinced-it-came-out-of-a-lab/

    This is extremely damning on Covid.

    It seems highly likely now that Covid was engineered to be more deadly by US scientists, then released, whether by accident or, God forbid, design.

    The committee overseeing this research is anonymous and totally unnacountable to the legislature in the US.

    Whether released deliberately or by accident, this is a crime that has taken 6 million lives, and has cost economies countless billions. It dwarves any misdemeanours committed by any country since the middle part of the last century.

    We need to establish if this is true, and if it is, the USA needs to be sued back into the stone age.

    Of course it came from the lab. Of course these scientist c*nts are lying. And they’re still lying. ‘The market! The market!’

    Shut up about the fucking market when 99% of overwhelming circumstantial evidence points to the fucking lab ten yards away WHICH WAS DOING DANGEROUS RESEARCH INTO NOVEL BAT CORONAVIRUSES

    A fucking toddler knows it came from the lab

    Urgh. It makes me quite angry. And, for once, justifiably

    20 million people are dead
    Coming from the lab consists of multiple possibilities though. Accidental release is very different from a deliberate release. Assuming that the the gain of function work was the ultimate source, was it risk assessed? Was the ethical review undertaken? Did someone fuck up? It’s not as simple as just saying it came from the lab, you must pay reparations.
    Look into the applications for GOF research funds that went from Daszak at Wuhan to Fauci at NIH

    Specific alterations to the Furin Cleavage Site which, amazingly, are apparent on SARS-CoV-2
    None of that addresses the questions about risk assessment, ethics etc. (I do this for a living). It’s possible that Wuhan has none of these processes, but ultimate funding bodies should have.
    Fpt - If there is any of that stuff, I would love to see it.

    How exactly is it 'biodefense' to push the boundaries of disease deadliness in this way? Is it not more bioattack?
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,717
    edited August 2022

    The Beto clip: the laugh comes as Beto describes killing Viet Cong soldiers, not children.

    We cannot know quite why the person laughed, but I'd not describe the clip in quite those terms.

    I'd describe the laugh coming at the point of Beto physically acting out the action of Viet Cong soldiers, in the context of that being what the AR15 was designed for and therefore the ridiculousness of the law permitting an 18 year old to purchase several of them and hundreds of rounds of ammunition to use it on children instead.

    So whatever the motivation of the person laughing it was a very odd moment to chuckle about, since it wasn't simply about the killing of Viet Cong, but of the weapon used to kill children being intended for killing on the battlefield and what an outrage it being available was. The Viet Cong point is not divorced from the children point.
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    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,377
    kle4 said:

    The Beto clip: the laugh comes as Beto describes killing Viet Cong soldiers, not children.

    We cannot know quite why the person laughed, but I'd not describe the clip in quite those terms.

    I'd describe the laugh coming at the point of Beto physically acting out the action of Viet Cong soldiers, in the context of that being what the AR15 was designed for and therefore the ridiculousness of the law permitting an 18 year old to purchase several of them and hundreds of rounds of ammunition to use it on children instead.

    So whatever the motivation of the person laughing it was a very odd moment to chuckle about, since it wasn't simply about the killing of Viet Cong, but of the weapon used to kill children being intended for killing on the battlefield and what an outrage it being available was. The Viet Cong point is not divorced from the children point.
    Perhaps they just got the giggles.
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    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,127
    edited August 2022

    FPT.

    On topic Labour's leads are modest by historic but I'm not sure how much swingback we'll see when the energy cap hits £5,000.

    The Red Wall Tory MPs will be in stepmom territory.

    Shouldn't you tell Opinium?
    I have.

    I think they are double counting.
    Still it cheers up the faithful and BJO.
    I may do a piece on Opinium at the next weekend.

    I might get excommunicated by Adam, Chris, and James though.
    I think you should. They have created a debatable anomaly.

    Perhaps to protect your identity you could use a pseudonym. There are plenty of Leon's redundant names available.
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    LeonLeon Posts: 47,007
    edited August 2022
    The full interview with Sachs, head of the Lancet Covid inquiry, is quite devastating. Here it is

    https://www.currentaffairs.org/2022/08/why-the-chair-of-the-lancets-covid-19-commission-thinks-the-us-government-is-preventing-a-real-investigation-into-the-pandemic

    It came from the lab

    Some of the details of the cover-up are mind boggling

    ‘The most interesting things that I got as chair of the Lancet commission came from Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) lawsuits and whistleblower leaks from inside the U.S. government. Isn’t that terrible? NIH was actually asked at one point: give us your research program on SARS-like viruses. And you know what they did? They released the cover page and redacted 290 pages. They gave us a cover page and 290 blank pages! That’s NIH, for heaven’s sake. That’s not some corporation. That is the U.S. government charged with keeping us healthy. ‘
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    OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,767
    I don't think he'll win, but if Sunak does then it's rumoured, just rumoured mind, that OGH host might make good on a twenty pound bet at 250/1.

    Please don't ask me about my sources on this!
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,717
    edited August 2022
    ping said:

    Regarding the previous thread.

    Hate to say I told you so, but…

    I did make the point when Aaron Bell turned on Boris, that he (and by extension, other red wall tories) were making a serious error of judgment.

    My comments were met with universal derision on PB.

    As I said then, either Boris stayed and he put his constituency at the bottom of the pork list - or Boris went, to be replaced by someone favouring the interests of the wealthy SE at the expense of the red wall.

    I was right.

    I think that post makes an error in assuming criticism of turfing Boris all coming from the same reasoning and justification. (It also wasn't universal since HYUFD at the very least made the same point).

    Tory MPs, and others, may have felt they had to turn on Boris on the point that he would no longer be an electoral asset, particularly in the Red Wall. That may well turn out to be wrong, and some such as you did suggest this.

    Others, however, may well have felt that whether or not replacing Boris negatively impacted Tory prospects by appealing to the SE core over the Red Wall, it had to be done because his behavior, many scandals and several instances of at best inadvertently misleading parliament, meant he was not fit for office.

    So I think playing the cassandra does not really work as it operates on a false premise of why 'everyone' may have felt it was the correct judgement, which did not all include it being an error for electoral purposes.
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    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,377
    Leon said:

    The full interview with Sachs, head of the Lancet Covid inquiry, is quite devastating. Here it is

    https://www.currentaffairs.org/2022/08/why-the-chair-of-the-lancets-covid-19-commission-thinks-the-us-government-is-preventing-a-real-investigation-into-the-pandemic

    It came from the lab

    Some of the details of the cover up are mind boggling

    ‘The most interesting things that I got as chair of the Lancet commission came from Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) lawsuits and whistleblower leaks from inside the U.S. government. Isn’t that terrible? NIH was actually asked at one point: give us your research program on SARS-like viruses. And you know what they did? They released the cover page and redacted 290 pages. They gave us a cover page and 290 blank pages! That’s NIH, for heaven’s sake. That’s not some corporation. That is the U.S. government charged with keeping us healthy. ‘

    He's a very brave man. And all those who consistently mock 'conspiracy theorist loons' would do well to read the interview.
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    FFS Rishi. Stop talking about inflation and start talking about the cost of living crisis.
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    LeonLeon Posts: 47,007
    I want Trump to win so he can put all these scientists in jail. Forever
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    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,377

    FFS Rishi. Stop talking about inflation and start talking about the cost of living crisis.

    Or he could just stop talking.

    Though he is better than the last one. Seems to have managed to find a slightly lower register.
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    OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,767
    Leon said:

    I want Trump to win so he can put all these scientists in jail. Forever

    Which scientists?
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,717
    edited August 2022

    Leon said:

    The full interview with Sachs, head of the Lancet Covid inquiry, is quite devastating. Here it is

    https://www.currentaffairs.org/2022/08/why-the-chair-of-the-lancets-covid-19-commission-thinks-the-us-government-is-preventing-a-real-investigation-into-the-pandemic

    It came from the lab

    Some of the details of the cover up are mind boggling

    ‘The most interesting things that I got as chair of the Lancet commission came from Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) lawsuits and whistleblower leaks from inside the U.S. government. Isn’t that terrible? NIH was actually asked at one point: give us your research program on SARS-like viruses. And you know what they did? They released the cover page and redacted 290 pages. They gave us a cover page and 290 blank pages! That’s NIH, for heaven’s sake. That’s not some corporation. That is the U.S. government charged with keeping us healthy. ‘

    He's a very brave man. And all those who consistently mock 'conspiracy theorist loons' would do well to read the interview.
    There is nothing wrong with mocking conpiracy theorist loons in general - a great many conspiracies are patently absurd, lacking in logic, blatantly contradictory, and require ultimate power to be achieved.

    It's simply the case that theories still need to be debunked, and not all theories are equally silly.

    Skeptics of established opinions do themselves no favours comparing themselves to batshit conspiracy theorists - right or wrong, the expression of doubts about the origins of Covid were not all equally batshit.

    The same logic applied to lockdown skeptics, where there were potentially sound reasons to do with the economy and balancing of pressures, liberal politics etc, without going into Piers Corbyn territory.
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    IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    ping said:

    Regarding the previous thread.

    Hate to say I told you so, but…

    I did make the point when Aaron Bell turned on Boris, that he (and by extension, other red wall tories) were making a serious error of judgment.

    My comments were met with universal derision on PB.

    As I said then, either Boris stayed and he put his constituency at the bottom of the pork list - or Boris went, to be replaced by someone favouring the interests of the wealthy SE at the expense of the red wall.

    I was right.

    You were ridiculed because you were ridiculous. First because there is more to life than pork barrels, and secondly because anyway thorns in Boris's side would always have got a much bigger payoff than spineless sycophants

    I am not sure whether your stated position demeans you more from a moral or an intellectual point of view.
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    kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 3,939
    kle4 said:

    The Beto clip: the laugh comes as Beto describes killing Viet Cong soldiers, not children.

    We cannot know quite why the person laughed, but I'd not describe the clip in quite those terms.

    I'd describe the laugh coming at the point of Beto physically acting out the action of Viet Cong soldiers, in the context of that being what the AR15 was designed for and therefore the ridiculousness of the law permitting an 18 year old to purchase several of them and hundreds of rounds of ammunition to use it on children instead.

    So whatever the motivation of the person laughing it was a very odd moment to chuckle about, since it wasn't simply about the killing of Viet Cong, but of the weapon used to kill children being intended for killing on the battlefield and what an outrage it being available was. The Viet Cong point is not divorced from the children point.
    I interpret it as the laugh of a crusty old "from my cold dead hands" NRA type as he chuckles thinking, oh here we go again, with the usual anti gun talking points.

    I don't agree with the laugh, but I think that's what it is.
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    Leon said:

    I want Trump to win so he can put all these scientists in jail. Forever

    Trump can keep them company in jail. Forever.
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    LeonLeon Posts: 47,007
    edited August 2022
    Omnium said:

    Leon said:

    I want Trump to win so he can put all these scientists in jail. Forever

    Which scientists?
    Anyone who signed the Daszak letter in the Lancet. Start there. Also the editor of the Lancet

    I’d say there is a good case for capital trials followed by executions

    20 million people are dead. They deserve justice. Are we really just going to shrug?
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,717
    edited August 2022

    kle4 said:

    The Beto clip: the laugh comes as Beto describes killing Viet Cong soldiers, not children.

    We cannot know quite why the person laughed, but I'd not describe the clip in quite those terms.

    I'd describe the laugh coming at the point of Beto physically acting out the action of Viet Cong soldiers, in the context of that being what the AR15 was designed for and therefore the ridiculousness of the law permitting an 18 year old to purchase several of them and hundreds of rounds of ammunition to use it on children instead.

    So whatever the motivation of the person laughing it was a very odd moment to chuckle about, since it wasn't simply about the killing of Viet Cong, but of the weapon used to kill children being intended for killing on the battlefield and what an outrage it being available was. The Viet Cong point is not divorced from the children point.
    Perhaps they just got the giggles.
    Potentially. It may have been an awkward laugh, not a mocking laugh, the person addressed may feel pretty aggrieved. However, as a wider message to those who do, if not laugh, but belittle concerns about gun laws around such tragedies, it makes for a decent clip, if not with those who are likely to switch sides.

    But the first thing he needs to win nationally is win over his own side.
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    turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 15,152
    Leon said:

    I want Trump to win so he can put all these scientists in jail. Forever

    Which ones? The ones who signed off the money? The poor scheme who was working on a project then felt a bit rough but went to pick up food for his/her evening meal from the wuhan market? The ones who insisted it couldn’t be a lab leak?
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,302

    kle4 said:

    Sure it is rude, but good to show humanity in politicians sometimes. If he stays at close to that level seems worth a long punt.

    On topic Labour's leads are modest by historic but I'm not sure how much swingback we'll see when the energy cap hits £5,000.

    I think this is a very good point. The raw situation is not unrecoverable for the Tories in historic terms, but there are a multitude of factors - length of time in office, Red Wall support drop, cost of living, etc - which mean that while it cannot be guaranteed they cannot recover, it will not be easy and blithe assumptions they will autoamtically are pinning a lot on that hope.

    Given the terminally stupid think the best way to win the next election is declare war on the woke then it could get much worse for the Tories.

    When people have to worry about choosing between heating or eating focussing your energies on persecuting trans people or changing the uni year means 1997 will look like a good year for the Tories in comparison to the 2024 general election.
    The hidden message there, though, is to ignore Woke entirely and talk about anything but. And it's an argument almost always advanced by supporters of Woke.

    Woke needs pushing back on and challenging for all our sakes. And I want no let up in that.
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    OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,767
    Leon said:

    Omnium said:

    Leon said:

    I want Trump to win so he can put all these scientists in jail. Forever

    Which scientists?
    Anyone who signed the Daszak letter in the Lancet. Start there. Also the editor of the Lancet

    I’d say there is a good case for capital trials followed by executions

    20 million people are dead. They deserve justice. Are we really just going to shrug?
    Scientists tell you what they think. They'll tell you if they're confident or not too. Politicians make the decisions.

    I'm pretty sure I'll never view an execution for what someone thinks as sensible. I'm mostly against executions for what someone does too.
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    FFS Rishi. Stop talking about inflation and start talking about the cost of living crisis.

    Or he could just stop talking.

    Though he is better than the last one. Seems to have managed to find a slightly lower register.
    Rishi should bin the introduction about his dear old mum and get straight on to his record of Covid mitigations, and then company taxation.

    Likewise, Liz should drop her jokes about LibDems and planning committees.

    Also, tonight's hustings are in Cheltenham, not "here in Derbyshire".
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    LeonLeon Posts: 47,007

    Leon said:

    I want Trump to win so he can put all these scientists in jail. Forever

    Which ones? The ones who signed off the money? The poor scheme who was working on a project then felt a bit rough but went to pick up food for his/her evening meal from the wuhan market? The ones who insisted it couldn’t be a lab leak?
    Anyone who was involved in the cover-up should go to jail

    Anyone involved in the Furin Cleavage Shit should face the gallows. There needs to be severe deterrence so that mad selfish scientists think twice before doing it again
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    IshmaelZ said:

    ping said:

    Regarding the previous thread.

    Hate to say I told you so, but…

    I did make the point when Aaron Bell turned on Boris, that he (and by extension, other red wall tories) were making a serious error of judgment.

    My comments were met with universal derision on PB.

    As I said then, either Boris stayed and he put his constituency at the bottom of the pork list - or Boris went, to be replaced by someone favouring the interests of the wealthy SE at the expense of the red wall.

    I was right.

    You were ridiculed because you were ridiculous. First because there is more to life than pork barrels, and secondly because anyway thorns in Boris's side would always have got a much bigger payoff than spineless sycophants

    I am not sure whether your stated position demeans you more from a moral or an intellectual point of view.
    Sometimes, there is no good move.

    By this winter, Boris was really hated by a lot of the population. Bell's comment- was he a fool for sticking to the rules? hit home because it was true. Something had to be done about Boris.

    The hilarity is that the Conservatives look set to miss out on the new broom effect by electing a replacement who stuck by Boris and seems set to keep the sycophants together.
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    kle4 said:

    Sure it is rude, but good to show humanity in politicians sometimes. If he stays at close to that level seems worth a long punt.

    On topic Labour's leads are modest by historic but I'm not sure how much swingback we'll see when the energy cap hits £5,000.

    I think this is a very good point. The raw situation is not unrecoverable for the Tories in historic terms, but there are a multitude of factors - length of time in office, Red Wall support drop, cost of living, etc - which mean that while it cannot be guaranteed they cannot recover, it will not be easy and blithe assumptions they will autoamtically are pinning a lot on that hope.

    Given the terminally stupid think the best way to win the next election is declare war on the woke then it could get much worse for the Tories.

    When people have to worry about choosing between heating or eating focussing your energies on persecuting trans people or changing the uni year means 1997 will look like a good year for the Tories in comparison to the 2024 general election.
    The hidden message there, though, is to ignore Woke entirely and talk about anything but. And it's an argument almost always advanced by supporters of Woke.

    Woke needs pushing back on and challenging for all our sakes. And I want no let up in that.
    It's not though, you can do both, right now, Truss seems to have a fingers in her ears about the cost of living crisis, that's what will damage the Tories.
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    OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,767
    edited August 2022
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    I want Trump to win so he can put all these scientists in jail. Forever

    Which ones? The ones who signed off the money? The poor scheme who was working on a project then felt a bit rough but went to pick up food for his/her evening meal from the wuhan market? The ones who insisted it couldn’t be a lab leak?
    Anyone who was involved in the cover-up should go to jail

    Anyone involved in the Furin Cleavage Shit should face the gallows. There needs to be severe deterrence so that mad selfish scientists think twice before doing it again
    You're just working very hard this evening to try to demonstrate that you run the conversational shop on PB aren't you?
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    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,377

    kle4 said:

    Sure it is rude, but good to show humanity in politicians sometimes. If he stays at close to that level seems worth a long punt.

    On topic Labour's leads are modest by historic but I'm not sure how much swingback we'll see when the energy cap hits £5,000.

    I think this is a very good point. The raw situation is not unrecoverable for the Tories in historic terms, but there are a multitude of factors - length of time in office, Red Wall support drop, cost of living, etc - which mean that while it cannot be guaranteed they cannot recover, it will not be easy and blithe assumptions they will autoamtically are pinning a lot on that hope.

    Given the terminally stupid think the best way to win the next election is declare war on the woke then it could get much worse for the Tories.

    When people have to worry about choosing between heating or eating focussing your energies on persecuting trans people or changing the uni year means 1997 will look like a good year for the Tories in comparison to the 2024 general election.
    The hidden message there, though, is to ignore Woke entirely and talk about anything but. And it's an argument almost always advanced by supporters of Woke.

    Woke needs pushing back on and challenging for all our sakes. And I want no let up in that.
    It doesn't need pushing back on and challenging - it needs to be supplanted by a new view of history and society that replaces wokeness as the gold standard polite world view, and cleanses it away until it is irrelevant to all but a few diehards. Resisting and challenging without an alternative vision is, by definition, a losing battle.
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    turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 15,152
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    I want Trump to win so he can put all these scientists in jail. Forever

    Which ones? The ones who signed off the money? The poor scheme who was working on a project then felt a bit rough but went to pick up food for his/her evening meal from the wuhan market? The ones who insisted it couldn’t be a lab leak?
    Anyone who was involved in the cover-up should go to jail

    Anyone involved in the Furin Cleavage Shit should face the gallows. There needs to be severe deterrence so that mad selfish scientists think twice before doing it again
    Step back a bit. Doing the research is not the issue. There should have been oversight. There should be safety protocols in place. Never perfect, but still. Would you have stopped the nuclear weapons project in WW2?
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    It might prove an expensive mistake but I am staying green on Rishi because I'm sceptical about Yougov's house effect. If Opinium also shows Liz Truss winning then I might need to reverse ferret on Betfair.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,717
    edited August 2022
    I do think it would be hilarious, because as noted previously JRM, Nadine and others would definitely claim it was rigged. Legal challenges would probably be made, necessitating Boris stay in office longer.

    But I feel like the overwhelming nature of the leads shown for Liz cannot all be wrong, plus Sunak has hardly covered himself in glory (He was even falling back on 'efficiency savings' as the saviour the other day), and hearing how Liz is easily going to win may well have prompted some waverers not to bother voting for Sunak.

    But a huge 'shy Rishi' vote would be amusing, though I suspect from past contests the Tory Members do not like close contests.
  • Options
    MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,286
    The thing is that nobody has a clue what will happen.

    Current energy bill handouts are £400 for everyone, an extra £650 for everyone on benefits, a further extra £150 for disability.

    Truss could simply double all those figures in 5 minutes and it's entirely possible she will. Whilst at the same time doing all the other things she's promised on NI, green levies etc.

    Why wouldn't she? She wants to win. Best chance of winning is to handout as much as possible.

    Nobody can be sure what she will do. So unwise to make confident predictions.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,007
    Omnium said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    I want Trump to win so he can put all these scientists in jail. Forever

    Which ones? The ones who signed off the money? The poor scheme who was working on a project then felt a bit rough but went to pick up food for his/her evening meal from the wuhan market? The ones who insisted it couldn’t be a lab leak?
    Anyone who was involved in the cover-up should go to jail

    Anyone involved in the Furin Cleavage Shit should face the gallows. There needs to be severe deterrence so that mad selfish scientists think twice before doing it again
    You're just working very hard this evening to try to demonstrate that you run the conversational shop on PB aren't you?
    I’m really not. I’m deadly serious here

    I can’t believe people are prepared to shrug and accept “oh we don’t know where it came from, probably it came from the lab but does it matter now?”

    I’ve heard people say exactly that. IT DOESN’T MATTER

    It absolutely matters. For start we don’t want it to happen AGAIN
  • Options
    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,377
    edited August 2022

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    I want Trump to win so he can put all these scientists in jail. Forever

    Which ones? The ones who signed off the money? The poor scheme who was working on a project then felt a bit rough but went to pick up food for his/her evening meal from the wuhan market? The ones who insisted it couldn’t be a lab leak?
    Anyone who was involved in the cover-up should go to jail

    Anyone involved in the Furin Cleavage Shit should face the gallows. There needs to be severe deterrence so that mad selfish scientists think twice before doing it again
    Step back a bit. Doing the research is not the issue. There should have been oversight. There should be safety protocols in place. Never perfect, but still. Would you have stopped the nuclear weapons project in WW2?
    It absolutely is the issue. The US has spent billions on making deadly diseases deadlier. For the sake of...? Being 'protected' when Russia or Al Quaeda unleash it into the world? Bit late for that.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,717
    edited August 2022

    kle4 said:

    Sure it is rude, but good to show humanity in politicians sometimes. If he stays at close to that level seems worth a long punt.

    On topic Labour's leads are modest by historic but I'm not sure how much swingback we'll see when the energy cap hits £5,000.

    I think this is a very good point. The raw situation is not unrecoverable for the Tories in historic terms, but there are a multitude of factors - length of time in office, Red Wall support drop, cost of living, etc - which mean that while it cannot be guaranteed they cannot recover, it will not be easy and blithe assumptions they will autoamtically are pinning a lot on that hope.

    Given the terminally stupid think the best way to win the next election is declare war on the woke then it could get much worse for the Tories.

    When people have to worry about choosing between heating or eating focussing your energies on persecuting trans people or changing the uni year means 1997 will look like a good year for the Tories in comparison to the 2024 general election.
    The hidden message there, though, is to ignore Woke entirely and talk about anything but. And it's an argument almost always advanced by supporters of Woke.

    Woke needs pushing back on and challenging for all our sakes. And I want no let up in that.
    I don't think it needs ignoring, such that it is a thing. I think highlighting costs of unnecessary posts and programmes, and promoting the more ridiculous examples out there, that sort of thing, does the job well enough.

    It's making a cultural point the centrepiece that is problematic from my perspective, because it overdoes it and leads to shoehorning it into everything (hence how the term can be overused).
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,007

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    I want Trump to win so he can put all these scientists in jail. Forever

    Which ones? The ones who signed off the money? The poor scheme who was working on a project then felt a bit rough but went to pick up food for his/her evening meal from the wuhan market? The ones who insisted it couldn’t be a lab leak?
    Anyone who was involved in the cover-up should go to jail

    Anyone involved in the Furin Cleavage Shit should face the gallows. There needs to be severe deterrence so that mad selfish scientists think twice before doing it again
    Step back a bit. Doing the research is not the issue. There should have been oversight. There should be safety protocols in place. Never perfect, but still. Would you have stopped the nuclear weapons project in WW2?

    Read the FOIAD emails.

    In fact, start with the Sachs interview linked upthread. He’s the head of the Lancet Covid commission. Read that and see if you’re still shrugging


  • Options
    FPT
    Leon said:

    @Leon do you like New Orleans rhythm and blues?

    Not enormously. no. I will listen to almost anything if it is presented to me - my iTunes library is ridiculously eclectic, from Gregorian chants to Philip Glass to the Entire Works of Busted - but I would not seek out that genre
    @Leon I really want you to go and see this guy that I recommended to @MarqueeMark earlier, Dom Pipkin.

    If you can go to one of his gigs and not come away a convert to NOLA R&B, I'll be astonished that you've proven yourself such a heathen

    Unfortunately I missed an opportunity to promote his excellent live show to you earlier this week; he played upstairs at Ronnie Scott's on Monday night

    He's playing there again on a Monday at the end of next month, and it only costs a tenner to get in

    If you can't wait that long, or to anyone else who lives in South/East London, go check him out next Tuesday at The Temple Of Art And Music just by Elephant & Castle

    The E&C gig is Dom's new NOLA Jam session. It'll cost about a tenner (probably less) to get in and you'll get about three hours of rich, sweet jam

    Just to whet appetites, here's another video of him live at a bar in Nottingham
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akHxDeHp5yU

    If anyone's interested in him or his gigs and on facebook, follow him here
    https://www.facebook.com/domandtheikos

  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,182
    Leon said:

    Omnium said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    I want Trump to win so he can put all these scientists in jail. Forever

    Which ones? The ones who signed off the money? The poor scheme who was working on a project then felt a bit rough but went to pick up food for his/her evening meal from the wuhan market? The ones who insisted it couldn’t be a lab leak?
    Anyone who was involved in the cover-up should go to jail

    Anyone involved in the Furin Cleavage Shit should face the gallows. There needs to be severe deterrence so that mad selfish scientists think twice before doing it again
    You're just working very hard this evening to try to demonstrate that you run the conversational shop on PB aren't you?
    I’m really not. I’m deadly serious here

    I can’t believe people are prepared to shrug and accept “oh we don’t know where it came from, probably it came from the lab but does it matter now?”

    I’ve heard people say exactly that. IT DOESN’T MATTER

    It absolutely matters. For start we don’t want it to happen AGAIN
    It will happen again. No doubt in my mind. As long as these places exist where this kind of research is being undertaken then human error and cock-up will happen.

  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,717

    IshmaelZ said:

    ping said:

    Regarding the previous thread.

    Hate to say I told you so, but…

    I did make the point when Aaron Bell turned on Boris, that he (and by extension, other red wall tories) were making a serious error of judgment.

    My comments were met with universal derision on PB.

    As I said then, either Boris stayed and he put his constituency at the bottom of the pork list - or Boris went, to be replaced by someone favouring the interests of the wealthy SE at the expense of the red wall.

    I was right.

    You were ridiculed because you were ridiculous. First because there is more to life than pork barrels, and secondly because anyway thorns in Boris's side would always have got a much bigger payoff than spineless sycophants

    I am not sure whether your stated position demeans you more from a moral or an intellectual point of view.
    Sometimes, there is no good move.

    By this winter, Boris was really hated by a lot of the population. Bell's comment- was he a fool for sticking to the rules? hit home because it was true. Something had to be done about Boris.

    The hilarity is that the Conservatives look set to miss out on the new broom effect by electing a replacement who stuck by Boris and seems set to keep the sycophants together.
    It's an interesting strategy, as she is going continuity Boris whilst also seeking to pivot pretty significantly on some policies.

    Which seems very effective amongst Members, who don't like a backstabber I guess but still want some change, but I'm not sure if the public will see it as new enough in the way that Boris was seen.
  • Options
    geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,143
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    I want Trump to win so he can put all these scientists in jail. Forever

    Which ones? The ones who signed off the money? The poor scheme who was working on a project then felt a bit rough but went to pick up food for his/her evening meal from the wuhan market? The ones who insisted it couldn’t be a lab leak?
    Anyone who was involved in the cover-up should go to jail

    Anyone involved in the Furin Cleavage Shit should face the gallows. There needs to be severe deterrence so that mad selfish scientists think twice before doing it again
    Shutting down or shouting down any investigation into the origins of Covid is hardly the mark of a disinterested scientist. The credibility of this claque of scientists, some of whom are extremely senior in science administration, is unlikely to recover.

  • Options
    OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,767
    Leon said:

    Omnium said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    I want Trump to win so he can put all these scientists in jail. Forever

    Which ones? The ones who signed off the money? The poor scheme who was working on a project then felt a bit rough but went to pick up food for his/her evening meal from the wuhan market? The ones who insisted it couldn’t be a lab leak?
    Anyone who was involved in the cover-up should go to jail

    Anyone involved in the Furin Cleavage Shit should face the gallows. There needs to be severe deterrence so that mad selfish scientists think twice before doing it again
    You're just working very hard this evening to try to demonstrate that you run the conversational shop on PB aren't you?
    I’m really not. I’m deadly serious here

    I can’t believe people are prepared to shrug and accept “oh we don’t know where it came from, probably it came from the lab but does it matter now?”

    I’ve heard people say exactly that. IT DOESN’T MATTER

    It absolutely matters. For start we don’t want it to happen AGAIN
    Come along. I think it's hands up time.
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,182
    MikeL said:

    The thing is that nobody has a clue what will happen.

    Current energy bill handouts are £400 for everyone, an extra £650 for everyone on benefits, a further extra £150 for disability.

    Truss could simply double all those figures in 5 minutes and it's entirely possible she will. Whilst at the same time doing all the other things she's promised on NI, green levies etc.

    Why wouldn't she? She wants to win. Best chance of winning is to handout as much as possible.

    Nobody can be sure what she will do. So unwise to make confident predictions.

    As her basic logic seems to be we can borrow money from the markets to hand out tax cuts then why not borrow money from the market to hand out hand outs?

  • Options
    Leon said:

    Omnium said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    I want Trump to win so he can put all these scientists in jail. Forever

    Which ones? The ones who signed off the money? The poor scheme who was working on a project then felt a bit rough but went to pick up food for his/her evening meal from the wuhan market? The ones who insisted it couldn’t be a lab leak?
    Anyone who was involved in the cover-up should go to jail

    Anyone involved in the Furin Cleavage Shit should face the gallows. There needs to be severe deterrence so that mad selfish scientists think twice before doing it again
    You're just working very hard this evening to try to demonstrate that you run the conversational shop on PB aren't you?
    I’m really not. I’m deadly serious here

    I can’t believe people are prepared to shrug and accept “oh we don’t know where it came from, probably it came from the lab but does it matter now?”

    I’ve heard people say exactly that. IT DOESN’T MATTER

    It absolutely matters. For start we don’t want it to happen AGAIN
    Yes but you have the wrong target. It matters not whether it came from a bat in the lab or a bat in the market. The scandal is America was paying for dangerous gain of function research in a country, China, that is bound to exploit that research for biowarfare. That's the real issue.
  • Options
    stodgestodge Posts: 12,841
    Evening all :)

    I was going to comment on the latest Swedish poll but I've now realised Bulgaria is voting AGAIN on October 2nd. This will be their fourth election in two years after three in 2021.

    From what I gather, the coalition put together by Petkov after last November's election (which was ostensibly a defeat for Borisov's GERB) fell apart when Trifonov's ITN party left the Government on June 8th causing it to lose a confidence motion in the National Assembly two weeks later.

    The latest polling has the combined We Continue The Change (PP) electoral alliance on 26.2% with GERB and their allies SDS on 22.6%, Movement of Rights and Freedoms on 12.4% and the Socialists on 11.6%. ITN look set to be wiped out with their support down to just 3.2% but Revival, an ultranationalist, anti-EU and anti-West party up to 8.9%.

    I've got no idea either - maybe I should just stick with Sweden or Latvia.
  • Options
    IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    I want Trump to win so he can put all these scientists in jail. Forever

    Which ones? The ones who signed off the money? The poor scheme who was working on a project then felt a bit rough but went to pick up food for his/her evening meal from the wuhan market? The ones who insisted it couldn’t be a lab leak?
    Anyone who was involved in the cover-up should go to jail

    Anyone involved in the Furin Cleavage Shit should face the gallows. There needs to be severe deterrence so that mad selfish scientists think twice before doing it again
    Step back a bit. Doing the research is not the issue. There should have been oversight. There should be safety protocols in place. Never perfect, but still. Would you have stopped the nuclear weapons project in WW2?
    Yew watt? For that question to make sense, the point of Manhattan would have had to be: just hypothesizing that Germany or Japan developed nukes, what might the consequences be? Let's find out.
  • Options
    Sun stream seems to have died. Others up.
  • Options
    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,377
    edited August 2022

    Leon said:

    Omnium said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    I want Trump to win so he can put all these scientists in jail. Forever

    Which ones? The ones who signed off the money? The poor scheme who was working on a project then felt a bit rough but went to pick up food for his/her evening meal from the wuhan market? The ones who insisted it couldn’t be a lab leak?
    Anyone who was involved in the cover-up should go to jail

    Anyone involved in the Furin Cleavage Shit should face the gallows. There needs to be severe deterrence so that mad selfish scientists think twice before doing it again
    You're just working very hard this evening to try to demonstrate that you run the conversational shop on PB aren't you?
    I’m really not. I’m deadly serious here

    I can’t believe people are prepared to shrug and accept “oh we don’t know where it came from, probably it came from the lab but does it matter now?”

    I’ve heard people say exactly that. IT DOESN’T MATTER

    It absolutely matters. For start we don’t want it to happen AGAIN
    It will happen again. No doubt in my mind. As long as these places exist where this kind of research is being undertaken then human error and cock-up will happen.

    That's why people need to hold Governments to account, and US labs researching biodefense must be asked nicely to pack up and head home. I shudder to think what might be bubbling away in the cauldrons in any UK-based research labs.
  • Options
    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,936
    MikeL said:

    The thing is that nobody has a clue what will happen.

    Current energy bill handouts are £400 for everyone, an extra £650 for everyone on benefits, a further extra £150 for disability.

    Truss could simply double all those figures in 5 minutes and it's entirely possible she will. Whilst at the same time doing all the other things she's promised on NI, green levies etc.

    Why wouldn't she? She wants to win. Best chance of winning is to handout as much as possible.

    Nobody can be sure what she will do. So unwise to make confident predictions.

    Blanket handouts are a) expensive and b) socialist.

    I'm not in favour of subsidising the population. But maybe we should look at need, here? Cover 25% of this year's bills. Thereby incentivising jumpers and not having the heating on constantly.

    I still don't understand how people manage to spend so much on gas.....
  • Options
    geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,143
    Truss says yes to (considering) tidal energy
  • Options
    turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 15,152
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    I want Trump to win so he can put all these scientists in jail. Forever

    Which ones? The ones who signed off the money? The poor scheme who was working on a project then felt a bit rough but went to pick up food for his/her evening meal from the wuhan market? The ones who insisted it couldn’t be a lab leak?
    Anyone who was involved in the cover-up should go to jail

    Anyone involved in the Furin Cleavage Shit should face the gallows. There needs to be severe deterrence so that mad selfish scientists think twice before doing it again
    Step back a bit. Doing the research is not the issue. There should have been oversight. There should be safety protocols in place. Never perfect, but still. Would you have stopped the nuclear weapons project in WW2?

    Read the FOIAD emails.

    In fact, start with the Sachs interview linked upthread. He’s the head of the Lancet Covid commission. Read that and see if you’re still shrugging


    I’m not shrugging, but it’s not clear to me where the problem is. It really does seem likely that at best a bunch of scientists panicked about the possibility of a lab leak (whether true or not) and acted in bad faith to try to shut down that line of enquiry. That was not great, but it’s hardly a life sentence offence. At that point the virus was out, from whatever source. The Chinese government deliberately allowed spread out of China. That was unconscionable. They covered up, and it’s not clear when the outbreak really began.
    But we absolutely do not know for certain that the virus that caused the pandemic was engineered. It may have been, it may not. And any money from funding bodies would have been signed off by a committee.
  • Options
    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,377
    ...
    geoffw said:

    Truss says yes to (considering) tidal energy

    Question from @MarqueeMark?
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,717
    geoffw said:

    Truss says yes to (considering) tidal energy

    I love that phrasing, for the reason you presumably highlight. You could say yes to considering everything, not do it, and still not have u-turned.
  • Options
    darkagedarkage Posts: 4,796

    kle4 said:

    Sure it is rude, but good to show humanity in politicians sometimes. If he stays at close to that level seems worth a long punt.

    On topic Labour's leads are modest by historic but I'm not sure how much swingback we'll see when the energy cap hits £5,000.

    I think this is a very good point. The raw situation is not unrecoverable for the Tories in historic terms, but there are a multitude of factors - length of time in office, Red Wall support drop, cost of living, etc - which mean that while it cannot be guaranteed they cannot recover, it will not be easy and blithe assumptions they will autoamtically are pinning a lot on that hope.

    Given the terminally stupid think the best way to win the next election is declare war on the woke then it could get much worse for the Tories.

    When people have to worry about choosing between heating or eating focussing your energies on persecuting trans people or changing the uni year means 1997 will look like a good year for the Tories in comparison to the 2024 general election.
    The hidden message there, though, is to ignore Woke entirely and talk about anything but. And it's an argument almost always advanced by supporters of Woke.

    Woke needs pushing back on and challenging for all our sakes. And I want no let up in that.
    I wonder if it would be easier to fight 'woke' if it was coming from a labour government?
    Ever since 2020, the tories have been perpetuating a large part of the agenda.
    But at the moment, the political focus needs to be on food, petrol, mortgages and energy prices.
  • Options
    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    I see the Department of Justice has filed to unseal the Trump warrant. Now the only thing stopping it being published is Trump objecting.
  • Options
    Telegraph running hustings poll currently has Rishi ahead but he's not been interviewed yet.
  • Options
    turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 15,152
    Mortimer said:

    MikeL said:

    The thing is that nobody has a clue what will happen.

    Current energy bill handouts are £400 for everyone, an extra £650 for everyone on benefits, a further extra £150 for disability.

    Truss could simply double all those figures in 5 minutes and it's entirely possible she will. Whilst at the same time doing all the other things she's promised on NI, green levies etc.

    Why wouldn't she? She wants to win. Best chance of winning is to handout as much as possible.

    Nobody can be sure what she will do. So unwise to make confident predictions.

    Blanket handouts are a) expensive and b) socialist.

    I'm not in favour of subsidising the population. But maybe we should look at need, here? Cover 25% of this year's bills. Thereby incentivising jumpers and not having the heating on constantly.

    I still don't understand how people manage to spend so much on gas.....
    When doing charity collecting in winter I am often struck by how warm some people keep their homes. One chap came to the door in just his shorts, with the house aroun 28 deg C. In December.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,007

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    I want Trump to win so he can put all these scientists in jail. Forever

    Which ones? The ones who signed off the money? The poor scheme who was working on a project then felt a bit rough but went to pick up food for his/her evening meal from the wuhan market? The ones who insisted it couldn’t be a lab leak?
    Anyone who was involved in the cover-up should go to jail

    Anyone involved in the Furin Cleavage Shit should face the gallows. There needs to be severe deterrence so that mad selfish scientists think twice before doing it again
    Step back a bit. Doing the research is not the issue. There should have been oversight. There should be safety protocols in place. Never perfect, but still. Would you have stopped the nuclear weapons project in WW2?

    Read the FOIAD emails.

    In fact, start with the Sachs interview linked upthread. He’s the head of the Lancet Covid commission. Read that and see if you’re still shrugging


    I’m not shrugging, but it’s not clear to me where the problem is. It really does seem likely that at best a bunch of scientists panicked about the possibility of a lab leak (whether true or not) and acted in bad faith to try to shut down that line of enquiry. That was not great, but it’s hardly a life sentence offence. At that point the virus was out, from whatever source. The Chinese government deliberately allowed spread out of China. That was unconscionable. They covered up, and it’s not clear when the outbreak really began.
    But we absolutely do not know for certain that the virus that caused the pandemic was engineered. It may have been, it may not. And any money from funding bodies would have been signed off by a committee.
    You’re just clueless. Do your research
  • Options
    IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    I want Trump to win so he can put all these scientists in jail. Forever

    Which ones? The ones who signed off the money? The poor scheme who was working on a project then felt a bit rough but went to pick up food for his/her evening meal from the wuhan market? The ones who insisted it couldn’t be a lab leak?
    Anyone who was involved in the cover-up should go to jail

    Anyone involved in the Furin Cleavage Shit should face the gallows. There needs to be severe deterrence so that mad selfish scientists think twice before doing it again
    Step back a bit. Doing the research is not the issue. There should have been oversight. There should be safety protocols in place. Never perfect, but still. Would you have stopped the nuclear weapons project in WW2?

    Read the FOIAD emails.

    In fact, start with the Sachs interview linked upthread. He’s the head of the Lancet Covid commission. Read that and see if you’re still shrugging


    I’m not shrugging, but it’s not clear to me where the problem is. It really does seem likely that at best a bunch of scientists panicked about the possibility of a lab leak (whether true or not) and acted in bad faith to try to shut down that line of enquiry. That was not great, but it’s hardly a life sentence offence. At that point the virus was out, from whatever source. The Chinese government deliberately allowed spread out of China. That was unconscionable. They covered up, and it’s not clear when the outbreak really began.
    But we absolutely do not know for certain that the virus that caused the pandemic was engineered. It may have been, it may not. And any money from funding bodies would have been signed off by a committee.
    How does the moral structure of your final sentence differ from "And any holocaust would have been signed off by the Wannsee conference"?
  • Options
    AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 19,939
    Is Dishy Rishi actually in with a chance?
  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,127
    edited August 2022
    ...
    Mortimer said:

    MikeL said:

    The thing is that nobody has a clue what will happen.

    Current energy bill handouts are £400 for everyone, an extra £650 for everyone on benefits, a further extra £150 for disability.

    Truss could simply double all those figures in 5 minutes and it's entirely possible she will. Whilst at the same time doing all the other things she's promised on NI, green levies etc.

    Why wouldn't she? She wants to win. Best chance of winning is to handout as much as possible.

    Nobody can be sure what she will do. So unwise to make confident predictions.

    Blanket handouts are a) expensive and b) socialist.

    I'm not in favour of subsidising the population. But maybe we should look at need, here? Cover 25% of this year's bills. Thereby incentivising jumpers and not having the heating on constantly.

    I still don't understand how people manage to spend so much on gas.....
    My menopausal wife could perhaps explain...
  • Options
    turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 15,152
    edited August 2022
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    I want Trump to win so he can put all these scientists in jail. Forever

    Which ones? The ones who signed off the money? The poor scheme who was working on a project then felt a bit rough but went to pick up food for his/her evening meal from the wuhan market? The ones who insisted it couldn’t be a lab leak?
    Anyone who was involved in the cover-up should go to jail

    Anyone involved in the Furin Cleavage Shit should face the gallows. There needs to be severe deterrence so that mad selfish scientists think twice before doing it again
    Step back a bit. Doing the research is not the issue. There should have been oversight. There should be safety protocols in place. Never perfect, but still. Would you have stopped the nuclear weapons project in WW2?

    Read the FOIAD emails.

    In fact, start with the Sachs interview linked upthread. He’s the head of the Lancet Covid commission. Read that and see if you’re still shrugging


    I’m not shrugging, but it’s not clear to me where the problem is. It really does seem likely that at best a bunch of scientists panicked about the possibility of a lab leak (whether true or not) and acted in bad faith to try to shut down that line of enquiry. That was not great, but it’s hardly a life sentence offence. At that point the virus was out, from whatever source. The Chinese government deliberately allowed spread out of China. That was unconscionable. They covered up, and it’s not clear when the outbreak really began.
    But we absolutely do not know for certain that the virus that caused the pandemic was engineered. It may have been, it may not. And any money from funding bodies would have been signed off by a committee.
    You’re just clueless. Do your research
    Which bit? Seriously. Do you think it was a deliberate realease of pathogen? Or an accidental release? Was the project signed off by the funders?
    What and who are you accusing of malfeasance?
  • Options
    geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,143
     
    kle4 said:

    geoffw said:

    Truss says yes to (considering) tidal energy

    I love that phrasing, for the reason you presumably highlight. You could say yes to considering everything, not do it, and still not have u-turned.
    She was asked if she would consider it. So not evasive from her.

  • Options
    turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 15,152
    IshmaelZ said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    I want Trump to win so he can put all these scientists in jail. Forever

    Which ones? The ones who signed off the money? The poor scheme who was working on a project then felt a bit rough but went to pick up food for his/her evening meal from the wuhan market? The ones who insisted it couldn’t be a lab leak?
    Anyone who was involved in the cover-up should go to jail

    Anyone involved in the Furin Cleavage Shit should face the gallows. There needs to be severe deterrence so that mad selfish scientists think twice before doing it again
    Step back a bit. Doing the research is not the issue. There should have been oversight. There should be safety protocols in place. Never perfect, but still. Would you have stopped the nuclear weapons project in WW2?

    Read the FOIAD emails.

    In fact, start with the Sachs interview linked upthread. He’s the head of the Lancet Covid commission. Read that and see if you’re still shrugging


    I’m not shrugging, but it’s not clear to me where the problem is. It really does seem likely that at best a bunch of scientists panicked about the possibility of a lab leak (whether true or not) and acted in bad faith to try to shut down that line of enquiry. That was not great, but it’s hardly a life sentence offence. At that point the virus was out, from whatever source. The Chinese government deliberately allowed spread out of China. That was unconscionable. They covered up, and it’s not clear when the outbreak really began.
    But we absolutely do not know for certain that the virus that caused the pandemic was engineered. It may have been, it may not. And any money from funding bodies would have been signed off by a committee.
    How does the moral structure of your final sentence differ from "And any holocaust would have been signed off by the Wannsee conference"?
    Good Godwin. The point is that Leon is wanting people put to death, and I’d like to see the evidence first. Who did what, and when. I don’t think that unreasonable.
  • Options
    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,377
    edited August 2022

    Mortimer said:

    MikeL said:

    The thing is that nobody has a clue what will happen.

    Current energy bill handouts are £400 for everyone, an extra £650 for everyone on benefits, a further extra £150 for disability.

    Truss could simply double all those figures in 5 minutes and it's entirely possible she will. Whilst at the same time doing all the other things she's promised on NI, green levies etc.

    Why wouldn't she? She wants to win. Best chance of winning is to handout as much as possible.

    Nobody can be sure what she will do. So unwise to make confident predictions.

    Blanket handouts are a) expensive and b) socialist.

    I'm not in favour of subsidising the population. But maybe we should look at need, here? Cover 25% of this year's bills. Thereby incentivising jumpers and not having the heating on constantly.

    I still don't understand how people manage to spend so much on gas.....
    When doing charity collecting in winter I am often struck by how warm some people keep their homes. One chap came to the door in just his shorts, with the house aroun 28 deg C. In December.
    I know a lady who was in a 'coercive control' relationship for many years, and one of her partner's 'things' was keeping their home very cold. She now has the heating roasty toasty wherever she is. If this winter really does inflict unwanted cold on people, there may well be a lot more racking up their heating for life when the prices return to normal.
  • Options
    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,377

    IshmaelZ said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    I want Trump to win so he can put all these scientists in jail. Forever

    Which ones? The ones who signed off the money? The poor scheme who was working on a project then felt a bit rough but went to pick up food for his/her evening meal from the wuhan market? The ones who insisted it couldn’t be a lab leak?
    Anyone who was involved in the cover-up should go to jail

    Anyone involved in the Furin Cleavage Shit should face the gallows. There needs to be severe deterrence so that mad selfish scientists think twice before doing it again
    Step back a bit. Doing the research is not the issue. There should have been oversight. There should be safety protocols in place. Never perfect, but still. Would you have stopped the nuclear weapons project in WW2?

    Read the FOIAD emails.

    In fact, start with the Sachs interview linked upthread. He’s the head of the Lancet Covid commission. Read that and see if you’re still shrugging


    I’m not shrugging, but it’s not clear to me where the problem is. It really does seem likely that at best a bunch of scientists panicked about the possibility of a lab leak (whether true or not) and acted in bad faith to try to shut down that line of enquiry. That was not great, but it’s hardly a life sentence offence. At that point the virus was out, from whatever source. The Chinese government deliberately allowed spread out of China. That was unconscionable. They covered up, and it’s not clear when the outbreak really began.
    But we absolutely do not know for certain that the virus that caused the pandemic was engineered. It may have been, it may not. And any money from funding bodies would have been signed off by a committee.
    How does the moral structure of your final sentence differ from "And any holocaust would have been signed off by the Wannsee conference"?
    Good Godwin. The point is that Leon is wanting people put to death, and I’d like to see the evidence first. Who did what, and when. I don’t think that unreasonable.
    Then I am sure you applaud the work of Senator Rand Paul in seeking to get to the bottom of it all.
  • Options
    turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 15,152

    IshmaelZ said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    I want Trump to win so he can put all these scientists in jail. Forever

    Which ones? The ones who signed off the money? The poor scheme who was working on a project then felt a bit rough but went to pick up food for his/her evening meal from the wuhan market? The ones who insisted it couldn’t be a lab leak?
    Anyone who was involved in the cover-up should go to jail

    Anyone involved in the Furin Cleavage Shit should face the gallows. There needs to be severe deterrence so that mad selfish scientists think twice before doing it again
    Step back a bit. Doing the research is not the issue. There should have been oversight. There should be safety protocols in place. Never perfect, but still. Would you have stopped the nuclear weapons project in WW2?

    Read the FOIAD emails.

    In fact, start with the Sachs interview linked upthread. He’s the head of the Lancet Covid commission. Read that and see if you’re still shrugging


    I’m not shrugging, but it’s not clear to me where the problem is. It really does seem likely that at best a bunch of scientists panicked about the possibility of a lab leak (whether true or not) and acted in bad faith to try to shut down that line of enquiry. That was not great, but it’s hardly a life sentence offence. At that point the virus was out, from whatever source. The Chinese government deliberately allowed spread out of China. That was unconscionable. They covered up, and it’s not clear when the outbreak really began.
    But we absolutely do not know for certain that the virus that caused the pandemic was engineered. It may have been, it may not. And any money from funding bodies would have been signed off by a committee.
    How does the moral structure of your final sentence differ from "And any holocaust would have been signed off by the Wannsee conference"?
    Good Godwin. The point is that Leon is wanting people put to death, and I’d like to see the evidence first. Who did what, and when. I don’t think that unreasonable.
    Then I am sure you applaud the work of Senator Rand Paul in seeking to get to the bottom of it all.
    Never heard of him. I don’t tend to follow US politics. Too many loons obsessed with UAPs.
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,910
    I think everyone should get a certain number of kwh of both gas and leccy at the old cap with no cap on excess per household.
  • Options
    Gosh, Liz is a bit dim.


  • Options
    pingping Posts: 3,731
    edited August 2022
    Mortimer said:

    MikeL said:

    The thing is that nobody has a clue what will happen.

    Current energy bill handouts are £400 for everyone, an extra £650 for everyone on benefits, a further extra £150 for disability.

    Truss could simply double all those figures in 5 minutes and it's entirely possible she will. Whilst at the same time doing all the other things she's promised on NI, green levies etc.

    Why wouldn't she? She wants to win. Best chance of winning is to handout as much as possible.

    Nobody can be sure what she will do. So unwise to make confident predictions.

    Blanket handouts are a) expensive and b) socialist.

    I'm not in favour of subsidising the population. But maybe we should look at need, here? Cover 25% of this year's bills. Thereby incentivising jumpers and not having the heating on constantly.

    I still don't understand how people manage to spend so much on gas.....
    I do think the government has gone about this in the wrong way.

    They should have covered half (or whatever) of the increase above a set cost p/kWh, for a set period.

    It would have pleased nobody (a p/kWh deduction doesn’t get the government much credit) but been fairer and led to far fewer anomalies (second/third homeowners, people on low, long term fixed contracts getting the bung etc etc)
  • Options
    IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    IshmaelZ said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    I want Trump to win so he can put all these scientists in jail. Forever

    Which ones? The ones who signed off the money? The poor scheme who was working on a project then felt a bit rough but went to pick up food for his/her evening meal from the wuhan market? The ones who insisted it couldn’t be a lab leak?
    Anyone who was involved in the cover-up should go to jail

    Anyone involved in the Furin Cleavage Shit should face the gallows. There needs to be severe deterrence so that mad selfish scientists think twice before doing it again
    Step back a bit. Doing the research is not the issue. There should have been oversight. There should be safety protocols in place. Never perfect, but still. Would you have stopped the nuclear weapons project in WW2?

    Read the FOIAD emails.

    In fact, start with the Sachs interview linked upthread. He’s the head of the Lancet Covid commission. Read that and see if you’re still shrugging


    I’m not shrugging, but it’s not clear to me where the problem is. It really does seem likely that at best a bunch of scientists panicked about the possibility of a lab leak (whether true or not) and acted in bad faith to try to shut down that line of enquiry. That was not great, but it’s hardly a life sentence offence. At that point the virus was out, from whatever source. The Chinese government deliberately allowed spread out of China. That was unconscionable. They covered up, and it’s not clear when the outbreak really began.
    But we absolutely do not know for certain that the virus that caused the pandemic was engineered. It may have been, it may not. And any money from funding bodies would have been signed off by a committee.
    How does the moral structure of your final sentence differ from "And any holocaust would have been signed off by the Wannsee conference"?
    Good Godwin. The point is that Leon is wanting people put to death, and I’d like to see the evidence first. Who did what, and when. I don’t think that unreasonable.
    You have unselfconsciously used the expression "signed off" in three different posts in this one thread, which to me suggests that you are incapable of autonomously addressing moral questions at all.

    There's a bit in Douglas Adams where someone proposes inventing the wheel and someone else says Oh yeah, well I do this for a living, I work in marketing, and I bet you haven't even the first idea what colour the wheel should be.
  • Options
    nico679nico679 Posts: 4,774
    edited August 2022
    Alistair said:

    I see the Department of Justice has filed to unseal the Trump warrant. Now the only thing stopping it being published is Trump objecting.

    That’s an interesting move and backs Trump into a corner . If Trump objects then he looks like he’s hiding something . I doubt the DOJ would have done this without feeling confident that the warrant itself is incriminating and does involve classified documents .
  • Options
    turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 15,152
    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    I want Trump to win so he can put all these scientists in jail. Forever

    Which ones? The ones who signed off the money? The poor scheme who was working on a project then felt a bit rough but went to pick up food for his/her evening meal from the wuhan market? The ones who insisted it couldn’t be a lab leak?
    Anyone who was involved in the cover-up should go to jail

    Anyone involved in the Furin Cleavage Shit should face the gallows. There needs to be severe deterrence so that mad selfish scientists think twice before doing it again
    Step back a bit. Doing the research is not the issue. There should have been oversight. There should be safety protocols in place. Never perfect, but still. Would you have stopped the nuclear weapons project in WW2?

    Read the FOIAD emails.

    In fact, start with the Sachs interview linked upthread. He’s the head of the Lancet Covid commission. Read that and see if you’re still shrugging


    I’m not shrugging, but it’s not clear to me where the problem is. It really does seem likely that at best a bunch of scientists panicked about the possibility of a lab leak (whether true or not) and acted in bad faith to try to shut down that line of enquiry. That was not great, but it’s hardly a life sentence offence. At that point the virus was out, from whatever source. The Chinese government deliberately allowed spread out of China. That was unconscionable. They covered up, and it’s not clear when the outbreak really began.
    But we absolutely do not know for certain that the virus that caused the pandemic was engineered. It may have been, it may not. And any money from funding bodies would have been signed off by a committee.
    How does the moral structure of your final sentence differ from "And any holocaust would have been signed off by the Wannsee conference"?
    Good Godwin. The point is that Leon is wanting people put to death, and I’d like to see the evidence first. Who did what, and when. I don’t think that unreasonable.
    You have unselfconsciously used the expression "signed off" in three different posts in this one thread, which to me suggests that you are incapable of autonomously addressing moral questions at all.

    There's a bit in Douglas Adams where someone proposes inventing the wheel and someone else says Oh yeah, well I do this for a living, I work in marketing, and I bet you haven't even the first idea what colour the wheel should be.
    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    I want Trump to win so he can put all these scientists in jail. Forever

    Which ones? The ones who signed off the money? The poor scheme who was working on a project then felt a bit rough but went to pick up food for his/her evening meal from the wuhan market? The ones who insisted it couldn’t be a lab leak?
    Anyone who was involved in the cover-up should go to jail

    Anyone involved in the Furin Cleavage Shit should face the gallows. There needs to be severe deterrence so that mad selfish scientists think twice before doing it again
    Step back a bit. Doing the research is not the issue. There should have been oversight. There should be safety protocols in place. Never perfect, but still. Would you have stopped the nuclear weapons project in WW2?

    Read the FOIAD emails.

    In fact, start with the Sachs interview linked upthread. He’s the head of the Lancet Covid commission. Read that and see if you’re still shrugging


    I’m not shrugging, but it’s not clear to me where the problem is. It really does seem likely that at best a bunch of scientists panicked about the possibility of a lab leak (whether true or not) and acted in bad faith to try to shut down that line of enquiry. That was not great, but it’s hardly a life sentence offence. At that point the virus was out, from whatever source. The Chinese government deliberately allowed spread out of China. That was unconscionable. They covered up, and it’s not clear when the outbreak really began.
    But we absolutely do not know for certain that the virus that caused the pandemic was engineered. It may have been, it may not. And any money from funding bodies would have been signed off by a committee.
    How does the moral structure of your final sentence differ from "And any holocaust would have been signed off by the Wannsee conference"?
    Good Godwin. The point is that Leon is wanting people put to death, and I’d like to see the evidence first. Who did what, and when. I don’t think that unreasonable.
    You have unselfconsciously used the expression "signed off" in three different posts in this one thread, which to me suggests that you are incapable of autonomously addressing moral questions at all.

    There's a bit in Douglas Adams where someone proposes inventing the wheel and someone else says Oh yeah, well I do this for a living, I work in marketing, and I bet you haven't even the first idea what colour the wheel should be.
    I’m just reflecting my experience within science and research. I can’t even do an undergraduate research project without undergoing ethical review. I’d be astonished if these projects haven’t had ethical review at some stage.
  • Options

    It might prove an expensive mistake but I am staying green on Rishi because I'm sceptical about Yougov's house effect. If Opinium also shows Liz Truss winning then I might need to reverse ferret on Betfair.
    Why do you think YouGov's house effect would be favourable to Truss?

    Seems to me that if YouGov is disproportionately weighted to Cameron/Osborne era Tories then that would surely be a pro-Rishi effect?
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,910
    Also the only price gas and leccy need to be above is the marginal cost of extraction in the north sea...
  • Options
    OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,767
    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    I want Trump to win so he can put all these scientists in jail. Forever

    Which ones? The ones who signed off the money? The poor scheme who was working on a project then felt a bit rough but went to pick up food for his/her evening meal from the wuhan market? The ones who insisted it couldn’t be a lab leak?
    Anyone who was involved in the cover-up should go to jail

    Anyone involved in the Furin Cleavage Shit should face the gallows. There needs to be severe deterrence so that mad selfish scientists think twice before doing it again
    Step back a bit. Doing the research is not the issue. There should have been oversight. There should be safety protocols in place. Never perfect, but still. Would you have stopped the nuclear weapons project in WW2?

    Read the FOIAD emails.

    In fact, start with the Sachs interview linked upthread. He’s the head of the Lancet Covid commission. Read that and see if you’re still shrugging


    I’m not shrugging, but it’s not clear to me where the problem is. It really does seem likely that at best a bunch of scientists panicked about the possibility of a lab leak (whether true or not) and acted in bad faith to try to shut down that line of enquiry. That was not great, but it’s hardly a life sentence offence. At that point the virus was out, from whatever source. The Chinese government deliberately allowed spread out of China. That was unconscionable. They covered up, and it’s not clear when the outbreak really began.
    But we absolutely do not know for certain that the virus that caused the pandemic was engineered. It may have been, it may not. And any money from funding bodies would have been signed off by a committee.
    How does the moral structure of your final sentence differ from "And any holocaust would have been signed off by the Wannsee conference"?
    Good Godwin. The point is that Leon is wanting people put to death, and I’d like to see the evidence first. Who did what, and when. I don’t think that unreasonable.
    You have unselfconsciously used the expression "signed off" in three different posts in this one thread, which to me suggests that you are incapable of autonomously addressing moral questions at all.

    There's a bit in Douglas Adams where someone proposes inventing the wheel and someone else says Oh yeah, well I do this for a living, I work in marketing, and I bet you haven't even the first idea what colour the wheel should be.
    He did it so brilliantly. Poor old Eddy in the space-time continuum.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,961

    Gosh, Liz is a bit dim.


    Why is it depressing? It's just harvesting a different kind of resource. It's just NIMBYism.
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    RazedabodeRazedabode Posts: 2,977
    I really really don’t get how Liz is favourite. She is going to be absolutely dire
  • Options

    It might prove an expensive mistake but I am staying green on Rishi because I'm sceptical about Yougov's house effect. If Opinium also shows Liz Truss winning then I might need to reverse ferret on Betfair.
    Why do you think YouGov's house effect would be favourable to Truss?

    Seems to me that if YouGov is disproportionately weighted to Cameron/Osborne era Tories then that would surely be a pro-Rishi effect?
    I don't think that follows. I might be wrong. I'm green on Rishi and Liz. If I trusted Yougov, I'd lay off Rishi and put more on Liz.
  • Options

    Gosh, Liz is a bit dim.


    I have to agree there. Pathetic pandering to NIMBY/agriculture vote.

    Personally I think wind farms are far superior to solar panels, and probably more important for UK security than food or solar too.

    But what people want to do with their land should be up to them. Crops, meat, biodiversity, solar, turbines or new housing - the land owner should be responsible for deciding what they do with their own land, not Commissars, Bureaucrats or Curtain Twitchers.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,007

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    I want Trump to win so he can put all these scientists in jail. Forever

    Which ones? The ones who signed off the money? The poor scheme who was working on a project then felt a bit rough but went to pick up food for his/her evening meal from the wuhan market? The ones who insisted it couldn’t be a lab leak?
    Anyone who was involved in the cover-up should go to jail

    Anyone involved in the Furin Cleavage Shit should face the gallows. There needs to be severe deterrence so that mad selfish scientists think twice before doing it again
    Step back a bit. Doing the research is not the issue. There should have been oversight. There should be safety protocols in place. Never perfect, but still. Would you have stopped the nuclear weapons project in WW2?

    Read the FOIAD emails.

    In fact, start with the Sachs interview linked upthread. He’s the head of the Lancet Covid commission. Read that and see if you’re still shrugging


    I’m not shrugging, but it’s not clear to me where the problem is. It really does seem likely that at best a bunch of scientists panicked about the possibility of a lab leak (whether true or not) and acted in bad faith to try to shut down that line of enquiry. That was not great, but it’s hardly a life sentence offence. At that point the virus was out, from whatever source. The Chinese government deliberately allowed spread out of China. That was unconscionable. They covered up, and it’s not clear when the outbreak really began.
    But we absolutely do not know for certain that the virus that caused the pandemic was engineered. It may have been, it may not. And any money from funding bodies would have been signed off by a committee.
    An evil virus ravages mankind. 20 million people die. Economies are demolished. The world reels

    So a bunch of scientists conspire to cover up the highly plausible explanation that this virus came from a lab where they were TRYING to make exactly this kind of virus EVEN MORE EVIL, hence all the millions of dead people

    And you say “that’s not great”

    Yes. That’s not great
  • Options
    TresTres Posts: 2,218
    Hilarious performance from Dundee United this evening.
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    geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,143
    Camilla Tominey is unduly assertive with her political views. Not the best moderator.
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    OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,767

    I really really don’t get how Liz is favourite. She is going to be absolutely dire

    Sunak seems very 'group think'. He'll give you a nice new shade of purple with extra teams, but he'll not notice the bloody obvious.

    I am very reluctantly going to vote for Truss
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    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,182

    I really really don’t get how Liz is favourite. She is going to be absolutely dire

    She peddles the snake oil that a majority of the ageing, keep brexit safe, triple lock loving, nothing has been the same since Maggie was removed, membership want to hear.

    Having said that I am going to predict that this will actually be a damn sight closer than these membership polls suggest.



  • Options
    .

    Gosh, Liz is a bit dim.


    Although I dont know why in 2022 every new building doesn’t have solar panels mandated by law.
    Probably because that could be a very bad idea?

    Considering the UK is a wintery island nation that needs peak energy demands when we put our heating on, how much use would a solar panel be on a north-facing roof, in December/January?

    New buildings around here seem to be getting solar panels typically installed on South-facing roofs because its economic more than because of the environment now. If its economic then great, go for it, but if its not, its really not the best investment we can make either fiscally or environmentally.
This discussion has been closed.