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The flaw in Liz’s reliance on tax cuts – politicalbetting.com

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  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 11,570

    Why are people not fleeing the high tax Nordic states?

    Maybe they get the benefits back of the high spending?
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 25,298
    Pulpstar said:

    I'm not certain watching the Hustings that Liz will give particular support for energy bills. To my mind she looked up for a fight on all this.

    Then energy companies will go bust.
    And there'll be an almighty recession due to the absence of discretionary spending amongst a huge proportion of the population.
    Because folk will be unable to pay.
    It really is that simple.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 42,503
    OllyT said:

    rcs1000 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Dynamo said:

    I hope it's not wishful thinking, but unless something big changes might the Tory party possibly be in real trouble as 2022 wears on? To summarise: its market for the moment has to be the retired or at least late-middle aged gammonians, most of whom would repeal the "woke" Race Relations Act that their hero spoke against in 1968 if ever they got the chance, perhaps shortly after banning the metric system because it's "foreign". This part of the population is so separate from the "red wall" and from almost everyone else in the country too that they must be making brand managers feel faint. They're lucky there's not an election on.

    On the other side of the coin, both they and the government machine are doing well with the "cost of living crisis" buzzphrase. What that tells many audiences is "don't support strikes".

    But THAT orientation is itself a "wall" that might, just possibly might, crumble. Why? Because if your living standards are falling through the floor to an extent that neither you nor your parents have ever before witnessed, then you've got to do something about it in cooperation with your neighbours, your workmates (if any), your family members, and with people who are in the same position as you in other areas, other workplaces, and other families, otherwise you are completely f***ed. The catch is that you need to have spiritedness (which requires that you switch your f***ing smartphone off - not a single oppositional movement has ever been mainly composed of continuing heroin addicts), and you also need enough energy left in your body before your bodyweight plummets too far owing to lack of food (which requires that you don't hang about).

    Will the "something big" happen that the Tory party needs? It might. It's easy to read the proliferation of Ukrainian flags on British flagpoles as an alternative to full-scale British entry into the war. That is kinda true, but only for the time being. There are parts of the population who are itching for war. This is clear for example in messages posted here about destroying Russia as if it were a rebellion in a British colony, and in the belief that if "Putin" isn't stopped he'll soon be threatening the mouth of the Thames - a case of making up reasons for stuff while believing them. We are talking about irrational xenophobes who don't care if Birmingham or Glasgow get nuked so long as the Azov Regiment triumphantly retakes the lost lands of the Donbas (and even the Crimea) and Russian cities get nuked faster than British ones.

    Then there is the weakening of many minds since the start of the coronavirus carnival in March 2020. For example, can people who locked themselves up in their houses for months except when taking weekly trips to the supermarket, when legally speaking they weren't required to, recover whatever level of independence of thought they once had? That might be a difficult ask. Many probably can't even remember before smartphones.

    Somebody’s either started very early or gone on an all-nighter.
    I love the way he lures you in with the idea the post might actually be about the Conservative Party, before veering off and hitting all the key talking points about the Azov Regiment.
    I think this one's going for the longevity record - perhaps it's like a rodeo where he wins he prize if he stays on the site longer than anyone else without falling off (ie without getting the ban hammer). Still not fooling anybody though
    They are getting better. The latest one isn’t just copying and pasting from a translator, they’ve clearly spend some time in the UK, perhaps as a student, reads UK media, and has a reasonable understanding about UK politics. The tell is that the comments are needlessly divisive, which of course is the aim of the project. Oh, and the references to the Ukranian Nazis and the Azov Regiment, which makes even the top-of-the-line troll stand out like a sore thumb.

    As with the “Microsoft Support” guys, we should consider ourselves to be doing a public service in keeping them off other forums - although the reason this one posts relatively infrequently, is likely that they’re having to do several forums at the same time.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 10,790
    Sandpit said:

    OllyT said:

    rcs1000 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Dynamo said:

    I hope it's not wishful thinking, but unless something big changes might the Tory party possibly be in real trouble as 2022 wears on? To summarise: its market for the moment has to be the retired or at least late-middle aged gammonians, most of whom would repeal the "woke" Race Relations Act that their hero spoke against in 1968 if ever they got the chance, perhaps shortly after banning the metric system because it's "foreign". This part of the population is so separate from the "red wall" and from almost everyone else in the country too that they must be making brand managers feel faint. They're lucky there's not an election on.

    On the other side of the coin, both they and the government machine are doing well with the "cost of living crisis" buzzphrase. What that tells many audiences is "don't support strikes".

    But THAT orientation is itself a "wall" that might, just possibly might, crumble. Why? Because if your living standards are falling through the floor to an extent that neither you nor your parents have ever before witnessed, then you've got to do something about it in cooperation with your neighbours, your workmates (if any), your family members, and with people who are in the same position as you in other areas, other workplaces, and other families, otherwise you are completely f***ed. The catch is that you need to have spiritedness (which requires that you switch your f***ing smartphone off - not a single oppositional movement has ever been mainly composed of continuing heroin addicts), and you also need enough energy left in your body before your bodyweight plummets too far owing to lack of food (which requires that you don't hang about).

    Will the "something big" happen that the Tory party needs? It might. It's easy to read the proliferation of Ukrainian flags on British flagpoles as an alternative to full-scale British entry into the war. That is kinda true, but only for the time being. There are parts of the population who are itching for war. This is clear for example in messages posted here about destroying Russia as if it were a rebellion in a British colony, and in the belief that if "Putin" isn't stopped he'll soon be threatening the mouth of the Thames - a case of making up reasons for stuff while believing them. We are talking about irrational xenophobes who don't care if Birmingham or Glasgow get nuked so long as the Azov Regiment triumphantly retakes the lost lands of the Donbas (and even the Crimea) and Russian cities get nuked faster than British ones.

    Then there is the weakening of many minds since the start of the coronavirus carnival in March 2020. For example, can people who locked themselves up in their houses for months except when taking weekly trips to the supermarket, when legally speaking they weren't required to, recover whatever level of independence of thought they once had? That might be a difficult ask. Many probably can't even remember before smartphones.

    Somebody’s either started very early or gone on an all-nighter.
    I love the way he lures you in with the idea the post might actually be about the Conservative Party, before veering off and hitting all the key talking points about the Azov Regiment.
    I think this one's going for the longevity record - perhaps it's like a rodeo where he wins he prize if he stays on the site longer than anyone else without falling off (ie without getting the ban hammer). Still not fooling anybody though
    They are getting better. The latest one isn’t just copying and pasting from a translator, they’ve clearly spend some time in the UK, perhaps as a student, reads UK media, and has a reasonable understanding about UK politics. The tell is that the comments are needlessly divisive, which of course is the aim of the project. Oh, and the references to the Ukranian Nazis and the Azov Regiment, which makes even the top-of-the-line troll stand out like a sore thumb.

    As with the “Microsoft Support” guys, we should consider ourselves to be doing a public service in keeping them off other forums - although the reason this one posts relatively infrequently, is likely that they’re having to do several forums at the same time.
    Whatever they are or aren't - and I suspect they are just a lolcow - they are not a native Russian speaker.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 47,295
    Sandpit said:

    OllyT said:

    rcs1000 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Dynamo said:

    I hope it's not wishful thinking, but unless something big changes might the Tory party possibly be in real trouble as 2022 wears on? To summarise: its market for the moment has to be the retired or at least late-middle aged gammonians, most of whom would repeal the "woke" Race Relations Act that their hero spoke against in 1968 if ever they got the chance, perhaps shortly after banning the metric system because it's "foreign". This part of the population is so separate from the "red wall" and from almost everyone else in the country too that they must be making brand managers feel faint. They're lucky there's not an election on.

    On the other side of the coin, both they and the government machine are doing well with the "cost of living crisis" buzzphrase. What that tells many audiences is "don't support strikes".

    But THAT orientation is itself a "wall" that might, just possibly might, crumble. Why? Because if your living standards are falling through the floor to an extent that neither you nor your parents have ever before witnessed, then you've got to do something about it in cooperation with your neighbours, your workmates (if any), your family members, and with people who are in the same position as you in other areas, other workplaces, and other families, otherwise you are completely f***ed. The catch is that you need to have spiritedness (which requires that you switch your f***ing smartphone off - not a single oppositional movement has ever been mainly composed of continuing heroin addicts), and you also need enough energy left in your body before your bodyweight plummets too far owing to lack of food (which requires that you don't hang about).

    Will the "something big" happen that the Tory party needs? It might. It's easy to read the proliferation of Ukrainian flags on British flagpoles as an alternative to full-scale British entry into the war. That is kinda true, but only for the time being. There are parts of the population who are itching for war. This is clear for example in messages posted here about destroying Russia as if it were a rebellion in a British colony, and in the belief that if "Putin" isn't stopped he'll soon be threatening the mouth of the Thames - a case of making up reasons for stuff while believing them. We are talking about irrational xenophobes who don't care if Birmingham or Glasgow get nuked so long as the Azov Regiment triumphantly retakes the lost lands of the Donbas (and even the Crimea) and Russian cities get nuked faster than British ones.

    Then there is the weakening of many minds since the start of the coronavirus carnival in March 2020. For example, can people who locked themselves up in their houses for months except when taking weekly trips to the supermarket, when legally speaking they weren't required to, recover whatever level of independence of thought they once had? That might be a difficult ask. Many probably can't even remember before smartphones.

    Somebody’s either started very early or gone on an all-nighter.
    I love the way he lures you in with the idea the post might actually be about the Conservative Party, before veering off and hitting all the key talking points about the Azov Regiment.
    I think this one's going for the longevity record - perhaps it's like a rodeo where he wins he prize if he stays on the site longer than anyone else without falling off (ie without getting the ban hammer). Still not fooling anybody though
    They are getting better. The latest one isn’t just copying and pasting from a translator, they’ve clearly spend some time in the UK, perhaps as a student, reads UK media, and has a reasonable understanding about UK politics. The tell is that the comments are needlessly divisive, which of course is the aim of the project. Oh, and the references to the Ukranian Nazis and the Azov Regiment, which makes even the top-of-the-line troll stand out like a sore thumb.

    As with the “Microsoft Support” guys, we should consider ourselves to be doing a public service in keeping them off other forums - although the reason this one posts relatively infrequently, is likely that they’re having to do several forums at the same time.
    As noted above, though, we're also helping train them in argument.
    As a rule, I think we should ignore rather than argue with them. The odd bit of ridicule is fine.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    darkage said:

    Why are people not fleeing the high tax Nordic states?

    Which high tax Nordic states do you have in mind?

    Many did which is why the Nordic states have reversed high tax policies that backfired.

    Many Nordic states have higher but flatter tax rates without the 'NYC skyline' peaks and troughs of cliff edges we have in this country. Higher taxes is something I disagree with politically, though higher but flatter taxes are fairer for me than trapping many people in even higher marginal tax rates like we do in this country.
    In my experience (Finland), the taxes are higher for the lower paid because you always have to pay a flat municipal tax of around 20%. What this means in practice is that wages are higher for the lower paid, so it is harder to run a small business, and prices are higher than the UK, but not so much nowadays given the weak euro.

    Generally the services are much better. Massive swimming pools, beautiful parks and gardens and public squares, awesome libraries, fantastic public transport, cycle lanes, world beating schools etc.

    There doesn't seem to be an industry of small accountants. You just go to the tax office and do what you are told.

    There is something quite liberating and enterprising about the UK and its enormous complexity, loopholes and general inequality.
    Yeah the UK is amazing. I mean, who could want world beating schools, fantastic public transport and awesome libraries, right? Much better to live in a land of private wealth and public squalor.
    You are such a gloomster, make your dad be a GP and send yourself to Winchester
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 47,295
    A Ukrainian Bayraktar TB2 was shot down by the Russian army in the South recently.

    Interestingly, based on the tail number and date of manufacturing this UCAV was a part of original supply even prior the February invasion- meaning TB2s from that batch are still active.

    https://twitter.com/UAWeapons/status/1557291571602669570

    Pretty good, considering how much Ukraine now relies on them for targeting in daylight.
    Of course Russia claims to have destroyed the entire complement several times over.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    IshmaelZ said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Scott_xP said:

    This is a national crisis - of the likes we saw during the pandemic says @MartinSLewis regarding skyrocketing energy prices #r4today
    https://twitter.com/sima_kotecha/status/1557265849404325888


    From the New Statesman article upthread

    “We’re going to lose the next general election. Bad news is coming flooding towards us.

    “With the energy bills, there are going to be demonstrations in the streets, and at some stage it’ll turn violent. This is a poll tax-plus situation. If Labour were clever and linked up with the Lib Dems, they could wipe the Tories out for a generation.”



    but it also contains this gem...

    “If you go to Church’s for a pair of gentleman’s first-class leather brogues off the shelf, they cost about £380, so people have actually forgotten what real shoes cost!”

    Good morning one and all!

    The story about the shoes remind me of Sam Vines, Terry Pratchett's hero; cheap boots cost a lot less than expensive ones, but the expensive ones last a lifetime while the cheap ones only last two or three years!

    Those *are* the cheap ones

    And he is out by a factor of over x2. £940 a pair.

    https://www.church-footwear.com/gb/en/men/style/oxfords.html
    I keep half an eye on quality shoe price and by my estimation Church’s prices have gone up by around 50% over the last couple of years (comparable brands nowhere close). Cost of living well crisis ahoy..
    I just bought some new motorcycle boots (vegan Alpinestars) - £520!

    I think I paid about £380 about 18 months ago but destroyed those in the infamous Fireblade crash where I broke my wrist. In an urban environment.
    Just bought a pair of these in a charity shop (much less than £520); I sense Truss would find them quite beguiling.


    Clock these: Giddens polo boots, probably £5000 first hand. £50 on eBay as "I think they are for motorcycling".


    You bought? Assume at that rrp they'd be bespoke so you'd be taking a gamble on where the original owner's bunions were.

    On a minorly connected note I was heartened to see in the recent Charlie Watts profile that Huntsman probably had more suit patterns for him in their basement than for any other customer. We shall not see his like again.
    Yeah and it worked. Always a gamble but was prepared to spend a bit on remedial work for the price. Not needed except soles.
  • Striking - not good
    Not paying energy bills - good
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 28,829

    Interesting. Just looked at my latest electric bill in detail and started checking against previous ones and I notice that 3 or 4 years ago the night time rate was ≈ 1/2 the day rate.

    No longer. Now night time is only a tad less than day.

    Is this just my supplier (I'm with a small green energy company).

    Maybe folk charging their cars?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 72,859
    Sunak's probably already lost hasn't he with all the early ballots in so far. Or more accurately he's going to need to get improbably ahead with those that have yet to cast their votes ?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 42,503
    Dura_Ace said:

    Sandpit said:

    OllyT said:

    rcs1000 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Dynamo said:

    I hope it's not wishful thinking, but unless something big changes might the Tory party possibly be in real trouble as 2022 wears on? To summarise: its market for the moment has to be the retired or at least late-middle aged gammonians, most of whom would repeal the "woke" Race Relations Act that their hero spoke against in 1968 if ever they got the chance, perhaps shortly after banning the metric system because it's "foreign". This part of the population is so separate from the "red wall" and from almost everyone else in the country too that they must be making brand managers feel faint. They're lucky there's not an election on.

    On the other side of the coin, both they and the government machine are doing well with the "cost of living crisis" buzzphrase. What that tells many audiences is "don't support strikes".

    But THAT orientation is itself a "wall" that might, just possibly might, crumble. Why? Because if your living standards are falling through the floor to an extent that neither you nor your parents have ever before witnessed, then you've got to do something about it in cooperation with your neighbours, your workmates (if any), your family members, and with people who are in the same position as you in other areas, other workplaces, and other families, otherwise you are completely f***ed. The catch is that you need to have spiritedness (which requires that you switch your f***ing smartphone off - not a single oppositional movement has ever been mainly composed of continuing heroin addicts), and you also need enough energy left in your body before your bodyweight plummets too far owing to lack of food (which requires that you don't hang about).

    Will the "something big" happen that the Tory party needs? It might. It's easy to read the proliferation of Ukrainian flags on British flagpoles as an alternative to full-scale British entry into the war. That is kinda true, but only for the time being. There are parts of the population who are itching for war. This is clear for example in messages posted here about destroying Russia as if it were a rebellion in a British colony, and in the belief that if "Putin" isn't stopped he'll soon be threatening the mouth of the Thames - a case of making up reasons for stuff while believing them. We are talking about irrational xenophobes who don't care if Birmingham or Glasgow get nuked so long as the Azov Regiment triumphantly retakes the lost lands of the Donbas (and even the Crimea) and Russian cities get nuked faster than British ones.

    Then there is the weakening of many minds since the start of the coronavirus carnival in March 2020. For example, can people who locked themselves up in their houses for months except when taking weekly trips to the supermarket, when legally speaking they weren't required to, recover whatever level of independence of thought they once had? That might be a difficult ask. Many probably can't even remember before smartphones.

    Somebody’s either started very early or gone on an all-nighter.
    I love the way he lures you in with the idea the post might actually be about the Conservative Party, before veering off and hitting all the key talking points about the Azov Regiment.
    I think this one's going for the longevity record - perhaps it's like a rodeo where he wins he prize if he stays on the site longer than anyone else without falling off (ie without getting the ban hammer). Still not fooling anybody though
    They are getting better. The latest one isn’t just copying and pasting from a translator, they’ve clearly spend some time in the UK, perhaps as a student, reads UK media, and has a reasonable understanding about UK politics. The tell is that the comments are needlessly divisive, which of course is the aim of the project. Oh, and the references to the Ukranian Nazis and the Azov Regiment, which makes even the top-of-the-line troll stand out like a sore thumb.

    As with the “Microsoft Support” guys, we should consider ourselves to be doing a public service in keeping them off other forums - although the reason this one posts relatively infrequently, is likely that they’re having to do several forums at the same time.
    Whatever they are or aren't - and I suspect they are just a lolcow - they are not a native Russian speaker.
    lolcow? Another way of saying S**n T****s?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 28,829
    PBers who miss the 5 min deadline to correct typos/autocorrects, other folk have it worse:


    https://www.theguardian.com/books/2022/aug/10/poet-nikita-gill-i-worry-about-people-getting-tattoos-of-my-work-what-if-i-made-a-typo

    'Gill – who writes in her second language, Hindi being her first – has mixed feelings about readers who are so taken by her iridescent words that they turn them into tattoos. On the one hand, she says, “it’s a great honour to have a place on someone’s skin”. But on the other: “I have this pure paranoia, I’m not even joking, that I’ve made a typo!”'
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 47,295
    Sobering thread, with some history we certainly weren't taught back when I was in school.

    Today is the 74th anniversary of the bombing of Nagasaki. Often overlooked, compared to Hiroshima, as merely the "second" atomic bomb, the Nagasaki attack is far more tricky, and important, in several ways...
    https://twitter.com/wellerstein/status/1159799358650499072

    Never trust the military with operational control over something you might regret them using.
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 3,338

    darkage said:

    Why are people not fleeing the high tax Nordic states?

    Which high tax Nordic states do you have in mind?

    Many did which is why the Nordic states have reversed high tax policies that backfired.

    Many Nordic states have higher but flatter tax rates without the 'NYC skyline' peaks and troughs of cliff edges we have in this country. Higher taxes is something I disagree with politically, though higher but flatter taxes are fairer for me than trapping many people in even higher marginal tax rates like we do in this country.
    In my experience (Finland), the taxes are higher for the lower paid because you always have to pay a flat municipal tax of around 20%. What this means in practice is that wages are higher for the lower paid, so it is harder to run a small business, and prices are higher than the UK, but not so much nowadays given the weak euro.

    Generally the services are much better. Massive swimming pools, beautiful parks and gardens and public squares, awesome libraries, fantastic public transport, cycle lanes, world beating schools etc.

    There doesn't seem to be an industry of small accountants. You just go to the tax office and do what you are told.

    There is something quite liberating and enterprising about the UK and its enormous complexity, loopholes and general inequality.
    Yeah the UK is amazing. I mean, who could want world beating schools, fantastic public transport and awesome libraries, right? Much better to live in a land of private wealth and public squalor.
    This is such a typical left wing response, which is actually based on an inferiority complex.
    Why do you think so many people from the Nordic countries move to England?
    To my mind both systems just have good and bad points. If the UK could resolve its housing dysfunction in the south east, the inequality problems would be significantly improved.
    Healthcare is also an area where the UK is better than nordic countries. You would have to spend many hundreds of Euros every month to get the same level of healthcare that is free on the NHS.


  • Pulpstar said:

    Sunak's probably already lost hasn't he with all the early ballots in so far. Or more accurately he's going to need to get improbably ahead with those that have yet to cast their votes ?

    Either that, or Truss does a Leadsom, and says/does something so awful that she has to withdraw.

    Which seems unlikely with one so shameless, but not impossible.
  • DynamoDynamo Posts: 651
    edited August 2022
    The shelling of the Zaporizhzhia nuclear power plant on 5-6 August: each side says the other side did it:

    * the Ukrainian side's story (Ukrinform);
    * the Russian side's story (TASS).

    Russia has called a UNSC meeting about it for tomorrow.
  • DynamoDynamo Posts: 651

    Pulpstar said:

    Sunak's probably already lost hasn't he with all the early ballots in so far. Or more accurately he's going to need to get improbably ahead with those that have yet to cast their votes ?

    Either that, or Truss does a Leadsom, and says/does something so awful that she has to withdraw.

    Which seems unlikely with one so shameless, but not impossible.
    Brady might have to tell her she doesn't have the confidence of the parliamentary party! :):)
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 72,859

    Pulpstar said:

    Sunak's probably already lost hasn't he with all the early ballots in so far. Or more accurately he's going to need to get improbably ahead with those that have yet to cast their votes ?

    Either that, or Truss does a Leadsom, and says/does something so awful that she has to withdraw.

    Which seems unlikely with one so shameless, but not impossible.
    The one pulling out needs to be Rishi. Forget about the betting, we need a proper functioning government in place - not time markers like Zahawi.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 20,505
    ...

    Pulpstar said:

    Sunak's probably already lost hasn't he with all the early ballots in so far. Or more accurately he's going to need to get improbably ahead with those that have yet to cast their votes ?

    Either that, or Truss does a Leadsom, and says/does something so awful that she has to withdraw.

    Which seems unlikely with one so shameless, but not impossible.

    Pulpstar said:

    Sunak's probably already lost hasn't he with all the early ballots in so far. Or more accurately he's going to need to get improbably ahead with those that have yet to cast their votes ?

    Either that, or Truss does a Leadsom, and says/does something so awful that she has to withdraw.

    Which seems unlikely with one so shameless, but not impossible.
    She could devour a baby live on air, and then he'd come on with his high, fake, 'clap me' voice, and say - 'She's eaten a BABIEEEE! I've never eaten a BABIEEE! I've campaigned against eating babies all my LIFE! Vote for MEEE!' and everyone would realise that eating a baby is forgiveable and just Liz being Liz.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 28,829

    ...

    Pulpstar said:

    Sunak's probably already lost hasn't he with all the early ballots in so far. Or more accurately he's going to need to get improbably ahead with those that have yet to cast their votes ?

    Either that, or Truss does a Leadsom, and says/does something so awful that she has to withdraw.

    Which seems unlikely with one so shameless, but not impossible.

    Pulpstar said:

    Sunak's probably already lost hasn't he with all the early ballots in so far. Or more accurately he's going to need to get improbably ahead with those that have yet to cast their votes ?

    Either that, or Truss does a Leadsom, and says/does something so awful that she has to withdraw.

    Which seems unlikely with one so shameless, but not impossible.
    She could devour a baby live on air, and then he'd come on with his high, fake, 'clap me' voice, and say - 'She's eaten a BABIEEEE! I've never eaten a BABIEEE! I've campaigned against eating babies all my LIFE! Vote for MEEE!' and everyone would realise that eating a baby is forgiveable and just Liz being Liz.
    Hmm, that reminds me of someone else.
  • Alphabet_SoupAlphabet_Soup Posts: 1,891
    Sandpit said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Sandpit said:

    OllyT said:

    rcs1000 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Dynamo said:

    I hope it's not wishful thinking, but unless something big changes might the Tory party possibly be in real trouble as 2022 wears on? To summarise: its market for the moment has to be the retired or at least late-middle aged gammonians, most of whom would repeal the "woke" Race Relations Act that their hero spoke against in 1968 if ever they got the chance, perhaps shortly after banning the metric system because it's "foreign". This part of the population is so separate from the "red wall" and from almost everyone else in the country too that they must be making brand managers feel faint. They're lucky there's not an election on.

    On the other side of the coin, both they and the government machine are doing well with the "cost of living crisis" buzzphrase. What that tells many audiences is "don't support strikes".

    But THAT orientation is itself a "wall" that might, just possibly might, crumble. Why? Because if your living standards are falling through the floor to an extent that neither you nor your parents have ever before witnessed, then you've got to do something about it in cooperation with your neighbours, your workmates (if any), your family members, and with people who are in the same position as you in other areas, other workplaces, and other families, otherwise you are completely f***ed. The catch is that you need to have spiritedness (which requires that you switch your f***ing smartphone off - not a single oppositional movement has ever been mainly composed of continuing heroin addicts), and you also need enough energy left in your body before your bodyweight plummets too far owing to lack of food (which requires that you don't hang about).

    Will the "something big" happen that the Tory party needs? It might. It's easy to read the proliferation of Ukrainian flags on British flagpoles as an alternative to full-scale British entry into the war. That is kinda true, but only for the time being. There are parts of the population who are itching for war. This is clear for example in messages posted here about destroying Russia as if it were a rebellion in a British colony, and in the belief that if "Putin" isn't stopped he'll soon be threatening the mouth of the Thames - a case of making up reasons for stuff while believing them. We are talking about irrational xenophobes who don't care if Birmingham or Glasgow get nuked so long as the Azov Regiment triumphantly retakes the lost lands of the Donbas (and even the Crimea) and Russian cities get nuked faster than British ones.

    Then there is the weakening of many minds since the start of the coronavirus carnival in March 2020. For example, can people who locked themselves up in their houses for months except when taking weekly trips to the supermarket, when legally speaking they weren't required to, recover whatever level of independence of thought they once had? That might be a difficult ask. Many probably can't even remember before smartphones.

    Somebody’s either started very early or gone on an all-nighter.
    I love the way he lures you in with the idea the post might actually be about the Conservative Party, before veering off and hitting all the key talking points about the Azov Regiment.
    I think this one's going for the longevity record - perhaps it's like a rodeo where he wins he prize if he stays on the site longer than anyone else without falling off (ie without getting the ban hammer). Still not fooling anybody though
    They are getting better. The latest one isn’t just copying and pasting from a translator, they’ve clearly spend some time in the UK, perhaps as a student, reads UK media, and has a reasonable understanding about UK politics. The tell is that the comments are needlessly divisive, which of course is the aim of the project. Oh, and the references to the Ukranian Nazis and the Azov Regiment, which makes even the top-of-the-line troll stand out like a sore thumb.

    As with the “Microsoft Support” guys, we should consider ourselves to be doing a public service in keeping them off other forums - although the reason this one posts relatively infrequently, is likely that they’re having to do several forums at the same time.
    Whatever they are or aren't - and I suspect they are just a lolcow - they are not a native Russian speaker.
    lolcow? Another way of saying S**n T****s?
    Not another one!
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 11,019
    darkage said:

    darkage said:

    Why are people not fleeing the high tax Nordic states?

    Which high tax Nordic states do you have in mind?

    Many did which is why the Nordic states have reversed high tax policies that backfired.

    Many Nordic states have higher but flatter tax rates without the 'NYC skyline' peaks and troughs of cliff edges we have in this country. Higher taxes is something I disagree with politically, though higher but flatter taxes are fairer for me than trapping many people in even higher marginal tax rates like we do in this country.
    In my experience (Finland), the taxes are higher for the lower paid because you always have to pay a flat municipal tax of around 20%. What this means in practice is that wages are higher for the lower paid, so it is harder to run a small business, and prices are higher than the UK, but not so much nowadays given the weak euro.

    Generally the services are much better. Massive swimming pools, beautiful parks and gardens and public squares, awesome libraries, fantastic public transport, cycle lanes, world beating schools etc.

    There doesn't seem to be an industry of small accountants. You just go to the tax office and do what you are told.

    There is something quite liberating and enterprising about the UK and its enormous complexity, loopholes and general inequality.
    Yeah the UK is amazing. I mean, who could want world beating schools, fantastic public transport and awesome libraries, right? Much better to live in a land of private wealth and public squalor.
    This is such a typical left wing response, which is actually based on an inferiority complex.
    Why do you think so many people from the Nordic countries move to England?
    To my mind both systems just have good and bad points. If the UK could resolve its housing dysfunction in the south east, the inequality problems would be significantly improved.
    Healthcare is also an area where the UK is better than nordic countries. You would have to spend many hundreds of Euros every month to get the same level of healthcare that is free on the NHS.


    The UK is probably a better country to be rich in, or at least to spend a bit of time in when young if you have good earnings potential in a sector like finance. I know plenty of scandis who fall into that category. A lot of them tend to move back when they get older though, eg with kids of school age, because the overall quality of life there is so much better. Having a great education system, they all speak perfect English, which helps.
    To be honest I used to think that the UK had a lot going for it but I increasingly think we are utterly broken. Public services have visibly deteriorated massively in the last decade. Political discourse has become disconnected from reality. Public spaces are dilapidated. There is really visible poverty everywhere. Things just don't work. We moved back here in 2010 after living abroad and I am starting to think we made a big mistake. I don't think our children are going to have the standard of life here that they deserve.
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 3,338
    Dura_Ace said:

    Sandpit said:

    OllyT said:

    rcs1000 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Dynamo said:

    I hope it's not wishful thinking, but unless something big changes might the Tory party possibly be in real trouble as 2022 wears on? To summarise: its market for the moment has to be the retired or at least late-middle aged gammonians, most of whom would repeal the "woke" Race Relations Act that their hero spoke against in 1968 if ever they got the chance, perhaps shortly after banning the metric system because it's "foreign". This part of the population is so separate from the "red wall" and from almost everyone else in the country too that they must be making brand managers feel faint. They're lucky there's not an election on.

    On the other side of the coin, both they and the government machine are doing well with the "cost of living crisis" buzzphrase. What that tells many audiences is "don't support strikes".

    But THAT orientation is itself a "wall" that might, just possibly might, crumble. Why? Because if your living standards are falling through the floor to an extent that neither you nor your parents have ever before witnessed, then you've got to do something about it in cooperation with your neighbours, your workmates (if any), your family members, and with people who are in the same position as you in other areas, other workplaces, and other families, otherwise you are completely f***ed. The catch is that you need to have spiritedness (which requires that you switch your f***ing smartphone off - not a single oppositional movement has ever been mainly composed of continuing heroin addicts), and you also need enough energy left in your body before your bodyweight plummets too far owing to lack of food (which requires that you don't hang about).

    Will the "something big" happen that the Tory party needs? It might. It's easy to read the proliferation of Ukrainian flags on British flagpoles as an alternative to full-scale British entry into the war. That is kinda true, but only for the time being. There are parts of the population who are itching for war. This is clear for example in messages posted here about destroying Russia as if it were a rebellion in a British colony, and in the belief that if "Putin" isn't stopped he'll soon be threatening the mouth of the Thames - a case of making up reasons for stuff while believing them. We are talking about irrational xenophobes who don't care if Birmingham or Glasgow get nuked so long as the Azov Regiment triumphantly retakes the lost lands of the Donbas (and even the Crimea) and Russian cities get nuked faster than British ones.

    Then there is the weakening of many minds since the start of the coronavirus carnival in March 2020. For example, can people who locked themselves up in their houses for months except when taking weekly trips to the supermarket, when legally speaking they weren't required to, recover whatever level of independence of thought they once had? That might be a difficult ask. Many probably can't even remember before smartphones.

    Somebody’s either started very early or gone on an all-nighter.
    I love the way he lures you in with the idea the post might actually be about the Conservative Party, before veering off and hitting all the key talking points about the Azov Regiment.
    I think this one's going for the longevity record - perhaps it's like a rodeo where he wins he prize if he stays on the site longer than anyone else without falling off (ie without getting the ban hammer). Still not fooling anybody though
    They are getting better. The latest one isn’t just copying and pasting from a translator, they’ve clearly spend some time in the UK, perhaps as a student, reads UK media, and has a reasonable understanding about UK politics. The tell is that the comments are needlessly divisive, which of course is the aim of the project. Oh, and the references to the Ukranian Nazis and the Azov Regiment, which makes even the top-of-the-line troll stand out like a sore thumb.

    As with the “Microsoft Support” guys, we should consider ourselves to be doing a public service in keeping them off other forums - although the reason this one posts relatively infrequently, is likely that they’re having to do several forums at the same time.
    Whatever they are or aren't - and I suspect they are just a lolcow - they are not a native Russian speaker.
    There are lots of people in western countries who are not stupid have these types of views. You could look up, for instance, Johann Backman in Finland.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johan_Bäckman

    In the end, the Kremlin is quite good at outwitting western governments and information warfare in general. The idea that there is a 'troll farm' which is the source of all this is quaint and possibly a bit naive.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,493
    ON topic; When did it become the Govt's responsibility to insulate people from rising prices?

    Petrol has fallen about 25p per litre at the pumps. Yet the media focus on people with their heating on too high. Frankly, I think Covid has turned the media into good little socialists.

    Personal responsibility, self motivation and industry needs to grow! Where is the Samuel Smiles de nos jours?
  • Mortimer said:

    ON topic; When did it become the Govt's responsibility to insulate people from rising prices?

    Petrol has fallen about 25p per litre at the pumps. Yet the media focus on people with their heating on too high. Frankly, I think Covid has turned the media into good little socialists.

    Personal responsibility, self motivation and industry needs to grow! Where is the Samuel Smiles de nos jours?

    So you'd rather people became homeless and died. At what point is the Government supposed to help, just let people die?
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,493

    Striking - not good
    Not paying energy bills - good

    Turning the heating down and putting a jumper on, even better....
  • Andy_CookeAndy_Cooke Posts: 4,510

    DavidL said:

    This is something that will damage Liz Truss, I remember a pollster telling me Martin Lewis had astronomical trust figures with the public, compared to the gutter most politicians were found in.

    Liz Truss has been urged to ditch “outrageous” claims that tax cuts will deal with energy price rises after she continued to hold out against immediate help with bills yesterday.

    Martin Lewis, the money-saving expert, said the frontrunner to become prime minister must set out detailed plans this month and offered to help draw them up as he warned that the energy crisis risked civil unrest and deaths from hypothermia this winter.

    Rishi Sunak, who is Truss’s rival in the Tory leadership race, must also commit himself to doubling the package he set out as chancellor in May, Lewis said. He accused the Conservative Party of neglecting a “financial cataclysm” that would push millions into destitution.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/savings-guru-martin-lewis-criticises-liz-truss-as-4-400-energy-bills-forecast-qjj5wnkm3

    There's a reason why scammers use the image of Martin Lewis to try and entice people to hand their money over to them, people trust him on things like this.

    I am afraid that Martin Lewis is being completely unrealistic here. How can the government pay everyone's increase in their heating bills? It is completely and utterly unsustainable. What needs to be done is to protect the vulnerable. The rest of us will just have to pay more for our fuel until the price comes down again. Sunak's plans for the first increase was frankly terrible policy and should not be repeated or augmented.
    True, in which case tax cuts are worse than useless. The nature of tax cuts is to help those who have more, more.

    Rough ballpark for what has to happen is that the bottom third will need a lot, if not complete help with this. That means the £1000 support going up to close to £2500. We're talking people who don't have £2500 spare. That's not happing by tax cuts.
    Alternatively reducing taxation encourages those who don't have much to be able to work to get more, so paying their bills and having more afterwards.

    Ratcheting up taxes on those who are working for a living in order to further swell the welfare state isn't the only option.
    The tragedy is that so much of the welfare bill is the state subsidising the profits of Asda etc. Companies refused to pay decent wages, so faced with millions working and still living in penury Gordon Brown came up with Working Tax Credits.

    I support a "what works" approach to most things, but despite working short term this hasn't worked long term. The right approach would have been to offer companies corporation tax cuts if they pay appropriate wages. Instead, CTax has collapsed down to 19% with companies not required to do anything in return for it.

    So there is no way back now. Companies won't pay a living wage because why should they. Government has no leverage any more other than demonise working people as "claiming benefits". No, that would be their employers.
    Sorry but that's utter codswallop. A full time 37.5h worker even on the legal minimum 'living wage' of £9.50 per hour is earning over £18.5k per annum and is paying a lot in tax including national insurance and employers national insurance which is a hidden tax on wages. And without kids a couple working full time even on minimum wage aren't entitled to tax credits/universal credit.

    Tax credits wasn't set up to deal with low wages, the "minimum wage" was set up to deal with that, it was pure welfare. Asda etc aren't going to pay for someone who is working only 16 hours per week to support lots of children, if you want the state to do that then argue for that, don't claim its corporate welfare. Asda didn't choose to get pregnant and have kids.
    If a worker, full time, on £9.50 per hour sees an income tax cut from 20% to 16%, they will be better off to the tune of £4.58 per week.

    (assume 37.5 hours per week, 52 weeks paid = £18,525 per annum. Currently pays £22.90 income tax per week and £15.17 NI per week)

    That won't be the hugest of benefits.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 16,322
    Mortimer said:

    ON topic; When did it become the Govt's responsibility to insulate people from rising prices?

    Petrol has fallen about 25p per litre at the pumps. Yet the media focus on people with their heating on too high. Frankly, I think Covid has turned the media into good little socialists.

    Personal responsibility, self motivation and industry needs to grow! Where is the Samuel Smiles de nos jours?

    The reality is without support, there would be mass non payment, courts would get clogged up and suppliers quickly go bust. What do we do then? Nationalise the suppliers or go without home electricity?
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,493

    Mortimer said:

    ON topic; When did it become the Govt's responsibility to insulate people from rising prices?

    Petrol has fallen about 25p per litre at the pumps. Yet the media focus on people with their heating on too high. Frankly, I think Covid has turned the media into good little socialists.

    Personal responsibility, self motivation and industry needs to grow! Where is the Samuel Smiles de nos jours?

    So you'd rather people became homeless and died. At what point is the Government supposed to help, just let people die?
    Perhaps people could take some agency? Get a more highly paid job? Turn down the heating? Reliance on Govt is pretty damn soft in my opinion....
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Pulpstar said:

    Sunak's probably already lost hasn't he with all the early ballots in so far. Or more accurately he's going to need to get improbably ahead with those that have yet to cast their votes ?

    40% of audience said they were undecided at beginning yesterday 15% at end.actual numbers are bollocks but trend probably reliable and I can't believe any of it was towards sunak.
  • Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    ON topic; When did it become the Govt's responsibility to insulate people from rising prices?

    Petrol has fallen about 25p per litre at the pumps. Yet the media focus on people with their heating on too high. Frankly, I think Covid has turned the media into good little socialists.

    Personal responsibility, self motivation and industry needs to grow! Where is the Samuel Smiles de nos jours?

    So you'd rather people became homeless and died. At what point is the Government supposed to help, just let people die?
    Perhaps people could take some agency? Get a more highly paid job? Turn down the heating? Reliance on Govt is pretty damn soft in my opinion....
    So yes you would rather people would go homeless and die
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 1,477


    Consumer gas prices across Europe, as of today.
  • Some very striking numbers in the tables of this polling:
    - 29% of the public say rioting would be justified over energy bills (65% against)
    - Among 18-24s 49% say rioting justified, 40% unjustified
    - In London, 41% say rioting justified, 52% unjustified
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,493
    IshmaelZ said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Sunak's probably already lost hasn't he with all the early ballots in so far. Or more accurately he's going to need to get improbably ahead with those that have yet to cast their votes ?

    40% of audience said they were undecided at beginning yesterday 15% at end.actual numbers are bollocks but trend probably reliable and I can't believe any of it was towards sunak.
    I know just 1 person IRL who is *Definitely* voting for Sunak. I know about 100 Tory members. Some are probably being shy about it. But my feeling is the Liz enthusiasts are proud.

    So I'd say 70 of them have probably already voted for Liz. 20 are undecided. 10 have voted for Sunak.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 47,295
    US Constitutional shitbaggery goes back a long way.
    I would wager this was a deliberate error.

    I am literally (sic) speechless. Qualified immunity exists because of a CLERICAL ERROR?!
    https://twitter.com/ReichlinMelnick/status/1557178832679014403

    Cracking piece of legal research, though.

    Qualified Immunity's Flawed Foundation
    https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=4179628
  • kjhkjh Posts: 8,343
    Mortimer said:

    ON topic; When did it become the Govt's responsibility to insulate people from rising prices?

    Petrol has fallen about 25p per litre at the pumps. Yet the media focus on people with their heating on too high. Frankly, I think Covid has turned the media into good little socialists.

    Personal responsibility, self motivation and industry needs to grow! Where is the Samuel Smiles de nos jours?

    It is exactly the Govt job to protect the people from excessive inflation. That is literally one of their jobs. It is not their job to get the best prices for me. That is my responsibility, but I have no control over rising prices generally caused by inflation.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Mortimer said:

    Striking - not good
    Not paying energy bills - good

    Turning the heating down and putting a jumper on, even better....
    I just have a sods law inkling we are due the hardest winter since 2010. Bugger everyone up and give a real fillip to lord frost type numpties.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 29,258
    UKgov's written arguments for the Supreme Court case on indyref2 are up online now. It argues that the court should decline the reference, and on the substance that a referendum "plainly relates to reserved matters", regardless of whether it is advisory... https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/supreme-court-case-no-20220098-written-submission/written-case-of-behalf-of-her-majestys-advocate-general-for-scotland-uksc-20220098
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 11,019

    Some very striking numbers in the tables of this polling:
    - 29% of the public say rioting would be justified over energy bills (65% against)
    - Among 18-24s 49% say rioting justified, 40% unjustified
    - In London, 41% say rioting justified, 52% unjustified

    Setting fire to things is certainly one way to keep warm. In reality rioting in cold weather is almost unheard of so this is unlikely to occur.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 20,505
    Mortimer said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Sunak's probably already lost hasn't he with all the early ballots in so far. Or more accurately he's going to need to get improbably ahead with those that have yet to cast their votes ?

    40% of audience said they were undecided at beginning yesterday 15% at end.actual numbers are bollocks but trend probably reliable and I can't believe any of it was towards sunak.
    I know just 1 person IRL who is *Definitely* voting for Sunak. I know about 100 Tory members. Some are probably being shy about it. But my feeling is the Liz enthusiasts are proud.

    So I'd say 70 of them have probably already voted for Liz. 20 are undecided. 10 have voted for Sunak.
    But on PB, most have voted Sunak I think, albeit with reservations.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 47,295
    Expert Explainer: Criminal Statutes that Could Apply to Trump’s Retention of Government Documents
    https://www.justsecurity.org/82619/expert-explainer-criminal-statutes-that-could-apply-to-trumps-retention-of-government-documents/
  • eekeek Posts: 22,076
    edited August 2022
    Cicero said:

    Why are people not fleeing the high tax Nordic states?

    Well, firstly it is a bit of a myth that Scandinavian taxes are that high. Denmark´s tax to GDP ratio, for example is 33.9%, as against 32.4% for UK.

    Secondly, they get what they pay for: efficient and cost effective administration. Over the past 40 years UK government administration has been sub-contracted to for-profit companies and a whole load of self-serving consultants, and now a minister can hardly cross the road without an expensive impact assesment study. Cowardly and incompetent administration leads to, for example, infrastructure costs that are hundreds of times more than elsewhere, for example, the Oresund bridge cost €4 billion and the Fehmarn tunnels in Denmark will cost about €10 billion; HS2 in the UK is now projected to cost over £100 billion.

    Tory fiscal policy does not address the hollowed-out UK government administration, in fact Truss will make things a lot worse. Virtually anything in the government sector in the UK, from health and education to infrastructure to trade has now been run into the ground. The evisceration of local government means that there is nowhere to hide from the pillaging and incompetence of the over centralised state. (I may add that the centralising of the SNP in Scotland has had a similar effect).

    To (mis) quote PJ O´Rourke, "The Tories are the party that says government doesn't work and then they get elected and prove it."
    With HS2 that's £100bn for a project that won't deliver the promised benefits because over 75% of them are derived from the cancelled HS2 East bits

    3 examples - ECML moves to a single speed service increasing capacity
    Midland Mainline moves to a single speed increased capacity
    Cross Country will finally be useable between Leeds / Sheffield and Birmingham
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,493
    edited August 2022
    kjh said:

    Mortimer said:

    ON topic; When did it become the Govt's responsibility to insulate people from rising prices?

    Petrol has fallen about 25p per litre at the pumps. Yet the media focus on people with their heating on too high. Frankly, I think Covid has turned the media into good little socialists.

    Personal responsibility, self motivation and industry needs to grow! Where is the Samuel Smiles de nos jours?

    It is exactly the Govt job to protect the people from excessive inflation. That is literally one of their jobs. It is not their job to get the best prices for me. That is my responsibility, but I have no control over rising prices generally caused by inflation.
    Which they could have done by NOT cranking up the presses as much as they have over the past decade. Govt action to fund lifestyles only ever prolongs a problem if fundamentals like the savings rate of a country isn't being overtaken by consumption....
  • Which of the following individuals do you think would be the better Prime Minister? (Red Wall):

    Sunak (CON): 32% (+3)
    Starmer (LAB): 39% (-5)

    Truss (CON): 37% (+2)
    Starmer (LAB): 39% (-1)

    Truss (CON): 36% (-2)
    Sunak (CON): 29% (-4)

    via @RedfieldWilton, 8 Aug
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,493

    Mortimer said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Sunak's probably already lost hasn't he with all the early ballots in so far. Or more accurately he's going to need to get improbably ahead with those that have yet to cast their votes ?

    40% of audience said they were undecided at beginning yesterday 15% at end.actual numbers are bollocks but trend probably reliable and I can't believe any of it was towards sunak.
    I know just 1 person IRL who is *Definitely* voting for Sunak. I know about 100 Tory members. Some are probably being shy about it. But my feeling is the Liz enthusiasts are proud.

    So I'd say 70 of them have probably already voted for Liz. 20 are undecided. 10 have voted for Sunak.
    But on PB, most have voted Sunak I think, albeit with reservations.
    Indeed. We're not exactly representative, mind.

    I have voted for Truss.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 47,295
    Q: So when did the DOJ start treating removal of classified documents like a felony anyway?
    A: When President Trump signed a 2018 law making it a felony.
    https://twitter.com/yarbro/status/1557136280785403904
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 16,322
    kjh said:

    Mortimer said:

    ON topic; When did it become the Govt's responsibility to insulate people from rising prices?

    Petrol has fallen about 25p per litre at the pumps. Yet the media focus on people with their heating on too high. Frankly, I think Covid has turned the media into good little socialists.

    Personal responsibility, self motivation and industry needs to grow! Where is the Samuel Smiles de nos jours?

    It is exactly the Govt job to protect the people from excessive inflation. That is literally one of their jobs. It is not their job to get the best prices for me. That is my responsibility, but I have no control over rising prices generally caused by inflation.
    Sometimes it is also the govts job to get the best prices and supply as well, like in healthcare or education now or energy pre privatisation. It is also the governments responsibility to ensure a functioning energy market. I fail to see any way that is possible this winter without state financial support.
  • https://twitter.com/novaramedia/status/1557035304690896898

    I hate Novara but that is a striking graphic
  • What we need in the UK is an honest conversation about, among other things::
    1. Tax levels
    2. Funding of public services
    3. The Union
    4. The general state of our democracy
    5. Our place in the world
    6. Our education system
    7. The changing climate and energy generation
    8. The implications of population ageing
    There is absolutely no way it will happen. As a result, we will continue to lurch from one crisis to the next. Maybe the whole concept of the nation state is failing if it cannot deliver consensus-driven, long-term solutions to major societal challenges.

    Labour introducing PR, is the only way
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 29,258
  • boulayboulay Posts: 1,908
    I/T for the insect lovers - just fished an Asian hornet out of the pool - not best photo but they really are big bastards. About 2 inches long.



  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 11,019

    What we need in the UK is an honest conversation about, among other things::
    1. Tax levels
    2. Funding of public services
    3. The Union
    4. The general state of our democracy
    5. Our place in the world
    6. Our education system
    7. The changing climate and energy generation
    8. The implications of population ageing
    There is absolutely no way it will happen. As a result, we will continue to lurch from one crisis to the next. Maybe the whole concept of the nation state is failing if it cannot deliver consensus-driven, long-term solutions to major societal challenges.

    I think a compelling argument for Scottish independence is that at least some of these questions probably could get addressed through a grown up national conversation in Scotland. There would be fewer resources to address the problems, certainly in the near term. But at least there might be an effort to improve things. I genuinely despair of the UK political and economic situation. And Labour must take some of the blame for not even trying to put solid ideas on the table.
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,525

    What we need in the UK is an honest conversation about, among other things::
    1. Tax levels
    2. Funding of public services
    3. The Union
    4. The general state of our democracy
    5. Our place in the world
    6. Our education system
    7. The changing climate and energy generation
    8. The implications of population ageing
    There is absolutely no way it will happen. As a result, we will continue to lurch from one crisis to the next. Maybe the whole concept of the nation state is failing if it cannot deliver consensus-driven, long-term solutions to major societal challenges.

    Labour introducing PR, is the only way
    Which they won't as it would cause them to never have a singular majority themselves.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 55,103
    Scott_xP said:
    Too late to save us all having her foisted on us as PM by the membership.

    But a sign of the chaos her administration will be from day one.

  • darkagedarkage Posts: 3,338
    edited August 2022

    darkage said:

    darkage said:

    Why are people not fleeing the high tax Nordic states?

    Which high tax Nordic states do you have in mind?

    Many did which is why the Nordic states have reversed high tax policies that backfired.

    Many Nordic states have higher but flatter tax rates without the 'NYC skyline' peaks and troughs of cliff edges we have in this country. Higher taxes is something I disagree with politically, though higher but flatter taxes are fairer for me than trapping many people in even higher marginal tax rates like we do in this country.
    In my experience (Finland), the taxes are higher for the lower paid because you always have to pay a flat municipal tax of around 20%. What this means in practice is that wages are higher for the lower paid, so it is harder to run a small business, and prices are higher than the UK, but not so much nowadays given the weak euro.

    Generally the services are much better. Massive swimming pools, beautiful parks and gardens and public squares, awesome libraries, fantastic public transport, cycle lanes, world beating schools etc.

    There doesn't seem to be an industry of small accountants. You just go to the tax office and do what you are told.

    There is something quite liberating and enterprising about the UK and its enormous complexity, loopholes and general inequality.
    Yeah the UK is amazing. I mean, who could want world beating schools, fantastic public transport and awesome libraries, right? Much better to live in a land of private wealth and public squalor.
    This is such a typical left wing response, which is actually based on an inferiority complex.
    Why do you think so many people from the Nordic countries move to England?
    To my mind both systems just have good and bad points. If the UK could resolve its housing dysfunction in the south east, the inequality problems would be significantly improved.
    Healthcare is also an area where the UK is better than nordic countries. You would have to spend many hundreds of Euros every month to get the same level of healthcare that is free on the NHS.


    The UK is probably a better country to be rich in, or at least to spend a bit of time in when young if you have good earnings potential in a sector like finance. I know plenty of scandis who fall into that category. A lot of them tend to move back when they get older though, eg with kids of school age, because the overall quality of life there is so much better. Having a great education system, they all speak perfect English, which helps.
    To be honest I used to think that the UK had a lot going for it but I increasingly think we are utterly broken. Public services have visibly deteriorated massively in the last decade. Political discourse has become disconnected from reality. Public spaces are dilapidated. There is really visible poverty everywhere. Things just don't work. We moved back here in 2010 after living abroad and I am starting to think we made a big mistake. I don't think our children are going to have the standard of life here that they deserve.
    Things work well enough in the UK, compared to lots of places around the world. But I would agree that austerity post 2010 was ill advised and has created significant problems in how the state is run.

    I don't know what 'visible poverty' is. It seems like a bit of a subjective judgement. There is a problem with overcrowding and terrible housing that is to do with a lack of Council housing and inadequate housebuilding, which is linked to various kinds of regulatory dysfunction. Also, widespread economic insecurity, which is driven by housing problems.

    I would ultimately say that the advantages of the UK; like the US, is in free enterprise; and a tax system that allows you to build up wealth, if you can negotiate it correctly.

    Edit - there are also certain other advantages of the UK in terms of a) climate and b) landscape diversity.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Dura_Ace said:

    Is there an iota of value in backing the Rishter at any price now? Surely he's just hanging out of his own arsehole at this point. Shall I do a daft ton on him?

    Disclaimer: I said Biden had no fucking chance of the Dem nomination in February 2020.

    You would be chucking away your money. Sunak is a useless candidate.

  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 11,234
    IshmaelZ said:

    Mortimer said:

    Striking - not good
    Not paying energy bills - good

    Turning the heating down and putting a jumper on, even better....
    I just have a sods law inkling we are due the hardest winter since 2010. Bugger everyone up and give a real fillip to lord frost type numpties.
    I did read one paper that showed a link between solar activity and winter temperatures in NW Europe. The solar cycle is 11 years. It's 12 years since 2010. So we're roughly at the same point on the solar cycle, and if that played a role in 2010, then it would be one factor increasing the likelihood of a cold winter.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 8,343
    boulay said:

    I/T for the insect lovers - just fished an Asian hornet out of the pool - not best photo but they really are big bastards. About 2 inches long.



    I can't tell from that picture but are you sure it isn't a European hornet? There has only been one sighting of an Asian hornet this year which was in Suffolk. It needs reporting if it is. They aren't dangerous to us, but are to bees.
  • eekeek Posts: 22,076
    First world problems

    Ferrari are recalling every cat they've built since 2005 due to a brake issue....

    https://www.foxbusiness.com/lifestyle/ferrari-recalling-vehicle-sold-2005-leaky-brake-fluid
  • What we need in the UK is an honest conversation about, among other things::
    1. Tax levels
    2. Funding of public services
    3. The Union
    4. The general state of our democracy
    5. Our place in the world
    6. Our education system
    7. The changing climate and energy generation
    8. The implications of population ageing
    There is absolutely no way it will happen. As a result, we will continue to lurch from one crisis to the next. Maybe the whole concept of the nation state is failing if it cannot deliver consensus-driven, long-term solutions to major societal challenges.

    I think a compelling argument for Scottish independence is that at least some of these questions probably could get addressed through a grown up national conversation in Scotland. There would be fewer resources to address the problems, certainly in the near term. But at least there might be an effort to improve things. I genuinely despair of the UK political and economic situation. And Labour must take some of the blame for not even trying to put solid ideas on the table.

    It's an interesting point. Maybe the UK's big problem is that it isn't a nation state.

  • boulayboulay Posts: 1,908
    kjh said:

    boulay said:

    I/T for the insect lovers - just fished an Asian hornet out of the pool - not best photo but they really are big bastards. About 2 inches long.



    I can't tell from that picture but are you sure it isn't a European hornet? There has only been one sighting of an Asian hornet this year which was in Suffolk. It needs reporting if it is. They aren't dangerous to us, but are to bees.

    No it’s def an Asian hornet. They are a big problem here and coming your way…..
    We’ve had them for a few years now so
    there is a big monitoring programme where they are also teaching UK beekeepers how to deal with them as best as possible.

    Here was an article from local press yesterday just to indicate the problem and efforts needed.

    https://jerseyeveningpost.com/news/2022/08/09/record-number-of-asian-hornet-nests-located-so-far-this-season/



  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 11,234
    eek said:
    Isn't that comparing the forecast changes for prices in the UK this winter, to the actual changes in price, today, in other countries?

    AKA completely misleading and cobblers even if they would have a point without overegging things.
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 1,477

    eek said:
    Isn't that comparing the forecast changes for prices in the UK this winter, to the actual changes in price, today, in other countries?

    AKA completely misleading and cobblers even if they would have a point without overegging things.
    Yes, see the graph I posted above for today’s prices.

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 47,295
    edited August 2022
    eek said:

    First world problems

    Ferrari are recalling every car they've built since 2005 due to a brake issue....

    https://www.foxbusiness.com/lifestyle/ferrari-recalling-vehicle-sold-2005-leaky-brake-fluid

    So it's not just their F1 reliability that's rubbish.
  • What we need in the UK is an honest conversation about, among other things::
    1. Tax levels
    2. Funding of public services
    3. The Union
    4. The general state of our democracy
    5. Our place in the world
    6. Our education system
    7. The changing climate and energy generation
    8. The implications of population ageing
    There is absolutely no way it will happen. As a result, we will continue to lurch from one crisis to the next. Maybe the whole concept of the nation state is failing if it cannot deliver consensus-driven, long-term solutions to major societal challenges.

    Trouble is, that sort of conversation tends to only happen after an unambiguous abject in-your-face failure. And Britain has had the good fortune to avoid those for a long time. The last one was probably the economic collapses of the 1970s. Before that, maybe Suez, but that was remote enough that many people didn't notice? There's a reasonable case that the lack of a massive, recent-historical disaster is why the UK feels like a bad fit for the rest of Europe, though I'm not sure that says good things about the UK.

    You can make a good honest case that the British state has failed pretty badly in many ways in recent years, but they have all been spinnable, debatable. I don't want the unambiguous abject in-your-face national failure, because I live here and so do my children, and I'd rather that didn't have to change. So how else do we get the honest conversation?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 72,859


    AKA completely misleading and cobblers even if they would have a point without overegging things.

    I find this is true for a remarkable amount of stuff my most Corbyn supporting friend pumps out on his facebook. French tax rates vs British ones being a recent example.
  • What we need in the UK is an honest conversation about, among other things::
    1. Tax levels
    2. Funding of public services
    3. The Union
    4. The general state of our democracy
    5. Our place in the world
    6. Our education system
    7. The changing climate and energy generation
    8. The implications of population ageing
    There is absolutely no way it will happen. As a result, we will continue to lurch from one crisis to the next. Maybe the whole concept of the nation state is failing if it cannot deliver consensus-driven, long-term solutions to major societal challenges.

    Trouble is, that sort of conversation tends to only happen after an unambiguous abject in-your-face failure. And Britain has had the good fortune to avoid those for a long time. The last one was probably the economic collapses of the 1970s. Before that, maybe Suez, but that was remote enough that many people didn't notice? There's a reasonable case that the lack of a massive, recent-historical disaster is why the UK feels like a bad fit for the rest of Europe, though I'm not sure that says good things about the UK.

    You can make a good honest case that the British state has failed pretty badly in many ways in recent years, but they have all been spinnable, debatable. I don't want the unambiguous abject in-your-face national failure, because I live here and so do my children, and I'd rather that didn't have to change. So how else do we get the honest conversation?

    We don't. For exactly the reasons you set out. Although, a break-up of the UK would definitely entail a where do we go from here moment.

  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 29,258

    I don't want the unambiguous abject in-your-face national failure, because I live here and so do my children, and I'd rather that didn't have to change. So how else do we get the honest conversation?

    Brexit will deliver...
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 11,234
    edited August 2022
    Hmm. I think it's possible that we will receive off the record briefings of this attack being by every conceivable means.

    Rob Lee
    @RALee85
    "A Ukrainian government official told The Washington Post on Wednesday that an airfield explosion in occupied Crimea was the work of Ukrainian special forces."
    @ikhurshudyan


    https://mobile.twitter.com/RALee85/status/1557305676967313408

    Edit: Still waiting for the claim it was a TB2.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Nigelb said:

    US Constitutional shitbaggery goes back a long way.
    I would wager this was a deliberate error.

    I am literally (sic) speechless. Qualified immunity exists because of a CLERICAL ERROR?!
    https://twitter.com/ReichlinMelnick/status/1557178832679014403

    Cracking piece of legal research, though.

    Qualified Immunity's Flawed Foundation
    https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=4179628

    Qualified immunity is one of the most pants on head insane parts of American law as interpreted by the courts.
  • What we need in the UK is an honest conversation about, among other things::
    1. Tax levels
    2. Funding of public services
    3. The Union
    4. The general state of our democracy
    5. Our place in the world
    6. Our education system
    7. The changing climate and energy generation
    8. The implications of population ageing
    There is absolutely no way it will happen. As a result, we will continue to lurch from one crisis to the next. Maybe the whole concept of the nation state is failing if it cannot deliver consensus-driven, long-term solutions to major societal challenges.

    I think a compelling argument for Scottish independence is that at least some of these questions probably could get addressed through a grown up national conversation in Scotland. There would be fewer resources to address the problems, certainly in the near term. But at least there might be an effort to improve things. I genuinely despair of the UK political and economic situation. And Labour must take some of the blame for not even trying to put solid ideas on the table.
    Are the Scots incapable of conversing before independence? That would be to repeat the Brexit mistake, to leave the union with no settled idea of the desired end state, let alone how to get there.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 20,505

    Scott_xP said:
    Too late to save us all having her foisted on us as PM by the membership.

    But a sign of the chaos her administration will be from day one.

    I don't think it's a u-turn at all - Truss expressed a strong preference for help via tax cuts, she didn't rule out other forms of help.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 72,859
    Alistair said:

    Nigelb said:

    US Constitutional shitbaggery goes back a long way.
    I would wager this was a deliberate error.

    I am literally (sic) speechless. Qualified immunity exists because of a CLERICAL ERROR?!
    https://twitter.com/ReichlinMelnick/status/1557178832679014403

    Cracking piece of legal research, though.

    Qualified Immunity's Flawed Foundation
    https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=4179628

    Qualified immunity is one of the most pants on head insane parts of American law as interpreted by the courts.
    The BIG one in US law is that SCOTUS should never have had the power of judicial review.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 29,258

    Are the Scots incapable of conversing before independence? That would be to repeat the Brexit mistake, to leave the union with no settled idea of the desired end state, let alone how to get there.

    Brexit showed no such conversation is possible because there is no value in truth.

    Comfortable lies dominate any such "debate", and not only will the public tolerate it, they welcome it.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 30,631
    17 years behind everyone else, and thanks only to my teen daughter, I have discovered “what 3 words”

    What an absolutely genius idea. So simple it feels kind of miraculous. Like magic. The world is decoded

    And a British start up based in london, as well 👍👍🥂🥂
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 29,258

    I don't think it's a u-turn at all - Truss expressed a strong preference for help via tax cuts, she didn't rule out other forms of help.

    She did though.

    "There will be no hand outs"

    Except, there will be hand outs...
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 29,258
    Leon said:

    17 years behind everyone else, and thanks only to my teen daughter, I have discovered “what 3 words”

    What an absolutely genius idea. So simple it feels kind of miraculous. Like magic. The world is decoded

    And a British start up based in london, as well 👍👍🥂🥂

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-57156797
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 28,829

    What we need in the UK is an honest conversation about, among other things::
    1. Tax levels
    2. Funding of public services
    3. The Union
    4. The general state of our democracy
    5. Our place in the world
    6. Our education system
    7. The changing climate and energy generation
    8. The implications of population ageing
    There is absolutely no way it will happen. As a result, we will continue to lurch from one crisis to the next. Maybe the whole concept of the nation state is failing if it cannot deliver consensus-driven, long-term solutions to major societal challenges.

    I think a compelling argument for Scottish independence is that at least some of these questions probably could get addressed through a grown up national conversation in Scotland. There would be fewer resources to address the problems, certainly in the near term. But at least there might be an effort to improve things. I genuinely despair of the UK political and economic situation. And Labour must take some of the blame for not even trying to put solid ideas on the table.
    Are the Scots incapable of conversing before independence? That would be to repeat the Brexit mistake, to leave the union with no settled idea of the desired end state, let alone how to get there.
    Independence *is* the settled idea of the end state.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 29,258
    Carnyx said:

    Independence *is* the settled idea of the end state.

    Scots making decisions for Scotland, just like Brexit led to Brits the French making decisions for the UK...
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 20,505
    Scott_xP said:

    I don't think it's a u-turn at all - Truss expressed a strong preference for help via tax cuts, she didn't rule out other forms of help.

    She did though.

    "There will be no hand outs"

    Except, there will be hand outs...
    Is that a verbatim quote? I think she criticised handouts strongly, but I didn't hear the bit where she ruled them out categorically.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 29,258
    Liz Truss: Cost of living payments are "wrong" and "Gordon Brown style economics" and "I don't support them". Also, I'm not ruling them out, stop saying I am! https://twitter.com/danbloom1/status/1557310522013409281/photo/1
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 56,749

    Hmm. I think it's possible that we will receive off the record briefings of this attack being by every conceivable means.

    Rob Lee
    @RALee85
    "A Ukrainian government official told The Washington Post on Wednesday that an airfield explosion in occupied Crimea was the work of Ukrainian special forces."
    @ikhurshudyan


    https://mobile.twitter.com/RALee85/status/1557305676967313408

    Edit: Still waiting for the claim it was a TB2.

    If they really want to mess with Putin's brain, they should say it was carried out by Syrian mercenaries that accepted a large bribe to switch sides.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 55,103
    Scott_xP said:

    Liz Truss: Cost of living payments are "wrong" and "Gordon Brown style economics" and "I don't support them". Also, I'm not ruling them out, stop saying I am! https://twitter.com/danbloom1/status/1557310522013409281/photo/1

    Liz 'U-turn' Truss.

  • eek said:
    Isn't that comparing the forecast changes for prices in the UK this winter, to the actual changes in price, today, in other countries?

    AKA completely misleading and cobblers even if they would have a point without overegging things.
    EDF launch 8.5 billion euro claim against the French Government today and it is fair to query if these are actual comparison's today and not just UK's projection into 2023
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 42,503

    Some very striking numbers in the tables of this polling:
    - 29% of the public say rioting would be justified over energy bills (65% against)
    - Among 18-24s 49% say rioting justified, 40% unjustified
    - In London, 41% say rioting justified, 52% unjustified

    Which irresponsible pollster is even asking questions like that?
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 11,234
    Leon said:

    17 years behind everyone else, and thanks only to my teen daughter, I have discovered “what 3 words”

    What an absolutely genius idea. So simple it feels kind of miraculous. Like magic. The world is decoded

    And a British start up based in london, as well 👍👍🥂🥂

    Yes.
    spin.damp.churn
    Fabulous.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 16,322
    Sandpit said:

    Some very striking numbers in the tables of this polling:
    - 29% of the public say rioting would be justified over energy bills (65% against)
    - Among 18-24s 49% say rioting justified, 40% unjustified
    - In London, 41% say rioting justified, 52% unjustified

    Which irresponsible pollster is even asking questions like that?
    More importantly which irresponsible politician is suggesting a corporation tax cut will somehow solve the problems?
  • kjhkjh Posts: 8,343
    boulay said:

    kjh said:

    boulay said:

    I/T for the insect lovers - just fished an Asian hornet out of the pool - not best photo but they really are big bastards. About 2 inches long.



    I can't tell from that picture but are you sure it isn't a European hornet? There has only been one sighting of an Asian hornet this year which was in Suffolk. It needs reporting if it is. They aren't dangerous to us, but are to bees.

    No it’s def an Asian hornet. They are a big problem here and coming your way…..
    We’ve had them for a few years now so
    there is a big monitoring programme where they are also teaching UK beekeepers how to deal with them as best as possible.

    Here was an article from local press yesterday just to indicate the problem and efforts needed.

    https://jerseyeveningpost.com/news/2022/08/09/record-number-of-asian-hornet-nests-located-so-far-this-season/



    I see you are in Jersey. I blew the picture up and although unclear it did look more like an Asian than a European. I assumed you were on the mainland where they have to be reported. There have only been 4 sightings in the last 3 years, although 14 in the 2 years before that. Yes a big problem for bee keepers.

    Sorry to have doubted you. I didn't know you were in Jersey. I get frustrated by news reports that often show a European hornetd claiming it to be an Asian hornet and also claim the Asian hornet is dangerous. It isn't. The Asian Giant Hornet does have a powerful sting however, but it isn't here or anywhere near here. We have a lot of European hornets and they are very docile compared to wasps. They just look scary because of their size. The Asian Giant Hornet really really is big. The Asian hornet is actually slightly smaller than our native European hornet.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 1,908
    Just found this one dead in a wasp trap - seems to have died whilst eating a wasp which is clamped in its embrace!


  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 29,258

    Is that a verbatim quote? I think she criticised handouts strongly, but I didn't hear the bit where she ruled them out categorically.


    Liz Truss accuses Sunak of "Gordon Brown economics", saying:

    "What I don't support is taking money off people in tax and then giving it back to them in handouts"
  • LeonLeon Posts: 30,631
    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    17 years behind everyone else, and thanks only to my teen daughter, I have discovered “what 3 words”

    What an absolutely genius idea. So simple it feels kind of miraculous. Like magic. The world is decoded

    And a British start up based in london, as well 👍👍🥂🥂

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-57156797

    What a ridiculous criticism. It’s saying it’s “not always 100% perfect in every single situation”. So that’s a reason not to use an obviously life-saving app?

    “Bromsgrove man urging everyone to download the What 3 Words app which saved his dad's life”

    https://bromsgrovestandard.co.uk/news/bromsgrove-man-urging-everyone-to-download-the-what-3-words-app-which-saved-his-dads-life/
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 18,053

    Scott_xP said:

    Liz Truss: Cost of living payments are "wrong" and "Gordon Brown style economics" and "I don't support them". Also, I'm not ruling them out, stop saying I am! https://twitter.com/danbloom1/status/1557310522013409281/photo/1

    Liz 'U-turn' Truss.

    Dizzy Lizzy

  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 29,258
    'Why can't you work with Rishi Sunak to plan for rising energy bills?'

    Liz Truss says if elected as PM when the result of the Tory leadership contest is announced in September, she will take action to tackle rising energy bills "on day one".

    https://trib.al/niVp7Uz

    📺 Sky 501 https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1557313967277703168/video/1
  • LeonLeon Posts: 30,631

    Leon said:

    17 years behind everyone else, and thanks only to my teen daughter, I have discovered “what 3 words”

    What an absolutely genius idea. So simple it feels kind of miraculous. Like magic. The world is decoded

    And a British start up based in london, as well 👍👍🥂🥂

    Yes.
    spin.damp.churn
    Fabulous.
    It feels like one of those apps which is going to explode. Like Spotify or something

    Cars are already incorporating it into their navigation tech


    https://www.zdnet.com/article/subaru-is-latest-car-maker-to-use-what3words-for-in-car-navigation/

    They are going to make SO much money
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 42,503

    https://twitter.com/novaramedia/status/1557035304690896898

    I hate Novara but that is a striking graphic

    The reason you hate Novara, is because they make the Lib Dems look like the ONS when it comes to bar charts. Those numbers are total bollocks by any reasonable measure.
This discussion has been closed.