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Sunak appears to be abandoning the RedWall – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 8,489
edited August 7 in General
Sunak appears to be abandoning the RedWall – politicalbetting.com

EXCLUSIVE: In a leaked video, Rishi Sunak boasted to Conservative Party members that he was prepared to take public money out of “deprived urban areas” to help wealthy towns.@REWearmouth reports: https://t.co/uZMpjKm6rG pic.twitter.com/07sSzDksMT

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Comments

  • eekeek Posts: 20,284
    edited August 5
    I don't see how party members voting solves or creates problems here.

    Both the final 2 candidates have made significant mistakes here

    Truss - trying to cut wages up North
    Sunak - taking money from councils up North..

    surely the issue comes down to things being rushed at the candidate selection point.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 22,808
    In times of economic difficulty you support the client vote. Anything else is political self-harm.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 22,808
    eek said:

    I don't see how party members voting solves or creates problems here.

    Both the final 2 candidates have made significant mistakes here

    Truss - trying to cut wages up North
    Sunak - taking money from councils up North..

    surely the issue comes down to things being rushed at the candidate selection point.

    Those aren't mistakes if you want to be leader of the Conservative Party.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 45,034
    Politically, it matters little if the Conservatives - under whatever leader - robbed funding from Liverpool or Manchester or any of the seats that elected a Labour MP in 2019. It will matter if they don't offer significant support for Workington or Ashfield or Hartlepool.
  • eekeek Posts: 20,284
    dixiedean said:

    eek said:

    I don't see how party members voting solves or creates problems here.

    Both the final 2 candidates have made significant mistakes here

    Truss - trying to cut wages up North
    Sunak - taking money from councils up North..

    surely the issue comes down to things being rushed at the candidate selection point.

    Those aren't mistakes if you want to be leader of the Conservative Party.
    They are mistakes when you no longer have enough seats down south to win an election....
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 15,680
    Betfair next prime minister
    1.12 Liz Truss 89%
    8.6 Rishi Sunak 12%

    Next Conservative leader
    1.12 Liz Truss 89%
    8.6 Rishi Sunak 12%
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 22,808
    eek said:

    dixiedean said:

    eek said:

    I don't see how party members voting solves or creates problems here.

    Both the final 2 candidates have made significant mistakes here

    Truss - trying to cut wages up North
    Sunak - taking money from councils up North..

    surely the issue comes down to things being rushed at the candidate selection point.

    Those aren't mistakes if you want to be leader of the Conservative Party.
    They are mistakes when you no longer have enough seats down south to win an election....
    Well. That's the gamble you have to take. Johnson correctly identified regional inequality as one of the major causes of sluggish economic performance. But was too slapdash and lazy to push it through. But was superb at bullshitting that he was.
    So. The impression has been created that there is a free pool of money being "wasted" on feckless people not like"us."
    The whole leadership campaign has been about searching for imagined sources of funds.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 71,279

    Betfair next prime minister
    1.12 Liz Truss 89%
    8.6 Rishi Sunak 12%

    Next Conservative leader
    1.12 Liz Truss 89%
    8.6 Rishi Sunak 12%

    Crackers that Sunak isn't in double figures.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 15,680
    How old is the video? What puzzles me is Sunak's reference to guidelines inherited from Labour, yet he was not even an MP until 2015.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 41,397
    dixiedean said:

    eek said:

    I don't see how party members voting solves or creates problems here.

    Both the final 2 candidates have made significant mistakes here

    Truss - trying to cut wages up North
    Sunak - taking money from councils up North..

    surely the issue comes down to things being rushed at the candidate selection point.

    Those aren't mistakes if you want to be leader of the Conservative Party.
    They are mistakes if you aspire to govern the country. There can be a difference between pandering to your base and crapping on half the nation.
    In this case, there isn't.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 16,848

    Politically, it matters little if the Conservatives - under whatever leader - robbed funding from Liverpool or Manchester or any of the seats that elected a Labour MP in 2019. It will matter if they don't offer significant support for Workington or Ashfield or Hartlepool.

    They won't notice in Bootle anyway. It looks like a plan.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 14,728
    eek said:

    I don't see how party members voting solves or creates problems here.

    Both the final 2 candidates have made significant mistakes here

    Truss - trying to cut wages up North
    Sunak - taking money from councils up North..

    surely the issue comes down to things being rushed at the candidate selection point.

    It comes from the selectorate living in a fantasy world created largely by the Mail and Express.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 16,848
    Pulpstar said:

    Betfair next prime minister
    1.12 Liz Truss 89%
    8.6 Rishi Sunak 12%

    Next Conservative leader
    1.12 Liz Truss 89%
    8.6 Rishi Sunak 12%

    Crackers that Sunak isn't in double figures.
    Equally crackers (for different reasons) that Truss isn't.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 22,808
    Nigelb said:

    dixiedean said:

    eek said:

    I don't see how party members voting solves or creates problems here.

    Both the final 2 candidates have made significant mistakes here

    Truss - trying to cut wages up North
    Sunak - taking money from councils up North..

    surely the issue comes down to things being rushed at the candidate selection point.

    Those aren't mistakes if you want to be leader of the Conservative Party.
    They are mistakes if you aspire to govern the country. There can be a difference between pandering to your base and crapping on half the nation.
    In this case, there isn't.
    The economic road has run out for that. It's crap on half the nation, or crap on it all.
    There's only one half which makes sense.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 41,397
    Growing similarities between the Republican Party and the theocrat regimes of the Middle East...

    "Christian Nationalism” Used to Be Taboo. Now It’s All the Rage.
    https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2022/08/christian-nationalist-identity-marjorie-taylor-greene.html
    ...Al Mohler, the president of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, called Christian nationalism “idolatrous” and pushed back on the idea that evangelical Christianity was linked to what had happened at the Capitol.

    “Nationalism is always a clear and present danger,” he wrote a week after the insurrection. But linking it to “American evangelical Christianity,” he said, was an unfair “accusation.”

    By this summer, Mohler had updated his thinking.

    Speaking on his podcast on June 15, the theologian said: “We have the left routinely speaking of me and of others as Christian nationalists, as if we’re supposed to be running from that.” He added: “I’m not about to run from that.”...
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 10,573

    eek said:

    I don't see how party members voting solves or creates problems here.

    Both the final 2 candidates have made significant mistakes here

    Truss - trying to cut wages up North
    Sunak - taking money from councils up North..

    surely the issue comes down to things being rushed at the candidate selection point.

    It comes from the selectorate living in a fantasy world created largely by the Mail and Express.
    It isn't clear though what is cause and effect here though. Are the publications pandering to the fantasies of a disappoinrted sector of the electorate, or are they creating the fantasies?

    Maybe it's circular causality, as us armchair sociologists like to say.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 45,034

    Politically, it matters little if the Conservatives - under whatever leader - robbed funding from Liverpool or Manchester or any of the seats that elected a Labour MP in 2019. It will matter if they don't offer significant support for Workington or Ashfield or Hartlepool.

    They won't notice in Bootle anyway. It looks like a plan.
    The CONS GAIN BOOTLE klaxon has long been stored in the attic.....
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 16,848

    Politically, it matters little if the Conservatives - under whatever leader - robbed funding from Liverpool or Manchester or any of the seats that elected a Labour MP in 2019. It will matter if they don't offer significant support for Workington or Ashfield or Hartlepool.

    They won't notice in Bootle anyway. It looks like a plan.
    The CONS GAIN BOOTLE klaxon has long been stored in the attic.....
    Did you bring it out and give it a polish in 2019?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 45,034

    Politically, it matters little if the Conservatives - under whatever leader - robbed funding from Liverpool or Manchester or any of the seats that elected a Labour MP in 2019. It will matter if they don't offer significant support for Workington or Ashfield or Hartlepool.

    They won't notice in Bootle anyway. It looks like a plan.
    The CONS GAIN BOOTLE klaxon has long been stored in the attic.....
    Did you bring it out and give it a polish in 2019?
    A light buffing....
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 6,598
    eek said:

    I don't see how party members voting solves or creates problems here.

    Both the final 2 candidates have made significant mistakes here

    Truss - trying to cut wages up North
    Sunak - taking money from councils up North..

    surely the issue comes down to things being rushed at the candidate selection point.

    Though the MP phase didn't reveal any better oven-ready alternatives. Mordaunt and Badenoch are interesting as potential LotOs after 2024, but their CVs were way too thin to take over as PM now.

    That it's come down to Sunak-Truss is really down to two decisions enacted long ago. The most recent was Johnson's deliberate use of the Richard Nixon strategy ("nobody will shoot me with Agnew as my Veep", as Private Eye put it). Appointing mediocrities to his cabinet helped secure his status as Big Dog. Which worked until his position became utterly untenable.

    But also, politics has been a binfire since 2016, and only the ashes are left. The Brexit fallout on the right and the Corbyn fallout on the left meant that the developmental pipeline in both parties sprung massive leaks. Hence Starmer and Truss/Sunak. None of the options are great, but they are also the best options each party had and has. Chickens laid years ago coming home to roost.
  • The Red Wall has done their job, from the Tory point of view. They were manipulated to vote for Brexit, and then for Johnson's crude promises to get the infernal thing 'done'. Brexit has happened. They can now be cast off, and any notion of levelling up will die a gradual death.

    Indeed, the coming recession will provide a fantastic excuse for the Tories to, sorrowfully and with great regret of course, forget the north.

    It might take a few years for it to happen. The Tories might even wring another election victory with Red Wall backing, as the betrayal takes time to be recognised by those who believe most. But happen it will.
  • TazTaz Posts: 5,426
    "Auxilione’s forecast comes less than a day after analysts at Investec forecast that October’s price cap will be £3,523, with bills rising to an eye-watering £4,210 in January."

    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/other/energy-bills-to-hit-4-000-by-january-as-gas-prices-spiral-out-of-control/ar-AA10kUv2?ocid=entnewsntp&cvid=135bd667ba7647f193c061bf7cf46e7c

    The govt still does little about this issue.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,301
    https://www.news.com.au/world/europe/100000-north-korean-soldiers-could-be-sent-to-bolster-putins-forces-fighting-ukraine/news-story/1126782c8c5e6fe08a8ad2d9fa38dff0



    Are there multiple wars that North Korean soldiers have been engaged in over the last several decades (to gain this 'wealth of experience' that i am unaware of?
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 14,728

    eek said:

    I don't see how party members voting solves or creates problems here.

    Both the final 2 candidates have made significant mistakes here

    Truss - trying to cut wages up North
    Sunak - taking money from councils up North..

    surely the issue comes down to things being rushed at the candidate selection point.

    It comes from the selectorate living in a fantasy world created largely by the Mail and Express.
    It isn't clear though what is cause and effect here though. Are the publications pandering to the fantasies of a disappoinrted sector of the electorate, or are they creating the fantasies?

    Maybe it's circular causality, as us armchair sociologists like to say.
    True, once they have created the fantasy, the only way to communicate effectively (and therefore sell to them) is to continue with the fantasy world and making it ever more absurd, just a fraction at a time.

    We don't escape this for a very long time.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 15,680
    Pulpstar said:

    Betfair next prime minister
    1.12 Liz Truss 89%
    8.6 Rishi Sunak 12%

    Next Conservative leader
    1.12 Liz Truss 89%
    8.6 Rishi Sunak 12%

    Crackers that Sunak isn't in double figures.
    It is a 2-horse race with exactly a month to go (unless Rishi throws in the towel before 5/9).
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 9,635

    Mordaunt and Badenoch are interesting as potential LotOs after 2024, but their CVs were way too thin to take over as PM now.

    Badenoch has limited appeal outside the alt-right curious (as well as being fucking ugly which matters) and Penny Dreadful is just a fucking charlatan.
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 10,573
    eek said:

    dixiedean said:

    eek said:

    I don't see how party members voting solves or creates problems here.

    Both the final 2 candidates have made significant mistakes here

    Truss - trying to cut wages up North
    Sunak - taking money from councils up North..

    surely the issue comes down to things being rushed at the candidate selection point.

    Those aren't mistakes if you want to be leader of the Conservative Party.
    They are mistakes when you no longer have enough seats down south to win an election....
    It's a bit of a stalemate though as long as Labour cannot win seats in Scotland.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 4,187
    edited August 5

    The Red Wall has done their job, from the Tory point of view. They were manipulated to vote for Brexit, and then for Johnson's crude promises to get the infernal thing 'done'. Brexit has happened. They can now be cast off, and any notion of levelling up will die a gradual death.

    Indeed, the coming recession will provide a fantastic excuse for the Tories to, sorrowfully and with great regret of course, forget the north.

    It might take a few years for it to happen. The Tories might even wring another election victory with Red Wall backing, as the betrayal takes time to be recognised by those who believe most. But happen it will.

    The red wall has been trending gradually but increasingly against Labour since 2005-2010. Brexit was a temporary accelerant but the trend remains. It should have far more marginsls going forward that were previously safe Labour seats.
    Countering that is the Tories showing signs of falling apart in the shires
  • eekeek Posts: 20,284

    eek said:

    I don't see how party members voting solves or creates problems here.

    Both the final 2 candidates have made significant mistakes here

    Truss - trying to cut wages up North
    Sunak - taking money from councils up North..

    surely the issue comes down to things being rushed at the candidate selection point.

    Though the MP phase didn't reveal any better oven-ready alternatives. Mordaunt and Badenoch are interesting as potential LotOs after 2024, but their CVs were way too thin to take over as PM now.

    That it's come down to Sunak-Truss is really down to two decisions enacted long ago. The most recent was Johnson's deliberate use of the Richard Nixon strategy ("nobody will shoot me with Agnew as my Veep", as Private Eye put it). Appointing mediocrities to his cabinet helped secure his status as Big Dog. Which worked until his position became utterly untenable.

    But also, politics has been a binfire since 2016, and only the ashes are left. The Brexit fallout on the right and the Corbyn fallout on the left meant that the developmental pipeline in both parties sprung massive leaks. Hence Starmer and Truss/Sunak. None of the options are great, but they are also the best options each party had and has. Chickens laid years ago coming home to roost.
    I think the issue dates from well before 2016

    After all who would want to be an MP in a world of 24 hour news and 24 hour social media when the expectations of many people is that as an MP you are now accessible 24/7...
  • vikvik Posts: 157
    It is very important to have party memberships elect the leader because it ensures that a leader is selected who is good at appealing to voters, and not just good at deal-making with other politicians.

    In Australia, we had a situation during the previous Labor government where the Deputy PM (Julia Gillard) was elevated to PM through an internal coup in the parliamentary party. Gillard was good at making deals with factional leaders and getting the numbers for a successful leadership challenge, but she was absolutely terrible at understanding voters & appealing to them.

    The Conservative Party system prevents this & ensures that the final two choices have to go out and show their campaigning skills to win the leadership.

    I think if Theresa May had faced a strong challenger, then she might also have failed at the final hurdle and the new leader might have done a lot better at the subsequent election.
  • eekeek Posts: 20,284
    Taz said:

    "Auxilione’s forecast comes less than a day after analysts at Investec forecast that October’s price cap will be £3,523, with bills rising to an eye-watering £4,210 in January."

    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/other/energy-bills-to-hit-4-000-by-january-as-gas-prices-spiral-out-of-control/ar-AA10kUv2?ocid=entnewsntp&cvid=135bd667ba7647f193c061bf7cf46e7c

    The govt still does little about this issue.

    The Government can't do much about the issue so they simply let it fester...
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 101,102
    edited August 5
    It should be noted Tunbridge Wells, where Rishi spoke and I was born and raised, is 46th on the LD target list and has a LD led council. It is very much bluewall.

    I don't there was anything wrong with what he said, there are parts of Tunbridge Wells that are not that well off, Sherwood ward for
    instance. Yes the redwall needs support but there are parts of the country elsewhere that do too.


    It should also be noted that the last 2 general election winners for the Tories, Johnson and Cameron, were both elected by the membership. The last general election winner for Labour, Tony Blair, was elected by Labour members. Starmer was also elected by Labour members and Davey by LD members
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 71,279

    Pulpstar said:

    Betfair next prime minister
    1.12 Liz Truss 89%
    8.6 Rishi Sunak 12%

    Next Conservative leader
    1.12 Liz Truss 89%
    8.6 Rishi Sunak 12%

    Crackers that Sunak isn't in double figures.
    It is a 2-horse race with exactly a month to go (unless Rishi throws in the towel before 5/9).
    It's almost at Democrats holding New York territory now though.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 9,085
    Dura_Ace said:

    Mordaunt and Badenoch are interesting as potential LotOs after 2024, but their CVs were way too thin to take over as PM now.

    Badenoch has limited appeal outside the alt-right curious (as well as being fucking ugly which matters) and Penny Dreadful is just a fucking charlatan.
    Welcome back DA.

    What's the mood in Egypt?
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 10,573
    vik said:

    It is very important to have party memberships elect the leader because it ensures that a leader is selected who is good at appealing to voters, and not just good at deal-making with other politicians.

    In Australia, we had a situation during the previous Labor government where the Deputy PM (Julia Gillard) was elevated to PM through an internal coup in the parliamentary party. Gillard was good at making deals with factional leaders and getting the numbers for a successful leadership challenge, but she was absolutely terrible at understanding voters & appealing to them.

    The Conservative Party system prevents this & ensures that the final two choices have to go out and show their campaigning skills to win the leadership.

    I think if Theresa May had faced a strong challenger, then she might also have failed at the final hurdle and the new leader might have done a lot better at the subsequent election.

    Maybe the problem is not the system but the lack of talent.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 14,728
    HYUFD said:

    It should be noted Tunbridge Wells, where Rishi spoke and I was born and raised, is 46th on the LD target list. It is very much bluewall.

    I don't there was anything wrong with what he said, there are parts of Tunbridge Wells that are not that well off, Sherwood ward for
    instance. Yes the redwall needs support but there are parts of the country elsewhere that do too.


    It should also be noted that the last 2 general election winners for the Tories, Johnson and Cameron, were both elected by the membership. The last general election winner for Labour, Tony Blair, was elected by Labour members. Starmer was also elected by Labour members and Davey by LD members

    What are the odds of that? If both main parties elect their leaders by members, what a surprise that general election winners are elected as leader by members.......
  • LeonLeon Posts: 24,250
    Dura_Ace said:

    Mordaunt and Badenoch are interesting as potential LotOs after 2024, but their CVs were way too thin to take over as PM now.

    Badenoch has limited appeal outside the alt-right curious (as well as being fucking ugly which matters) and Penny Dreadful is just a fucking charlatan.
    Salaam. You were missed
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 101,102
    This is also a reason why phone recordings are also normally not allowed at private Tory events. A Truss supporter obviously leaked this
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,301
    vik said:

    It is very important to have party memberships elect the leader because it ensures that a leader is selected who is good at appealing to voters, and not just good at deal-making with other politicians.

    In Australia, we had a situation during the previous Labor government where the Deputy PM (Julia Gillard) was elevated to PM through an internal coup in the parliamentary party. Gillard was good at making deals with factional leaders and getting the numbers for a successful leadership challenge, but she was absolutely terrible at understanding voters & appealing to them.

    The Conservative Party system prevents this & ensures that the final two choices have to go out and show their campaigning skills to win the leadership.

    I think if Theresa May had faced a strong challenger, then she might also have failed at the final hurdle and the new leader might have done a lot better at the subsequent election.

    It might allow a little more insight into their campaigning skills, but "appealing to voters" and "appealing to the Tory Party membership" are not things which axiomatically go together...
  • The Red Wall has done their job, from the Tory point of view. They were manipulated to vote for Brexit, and then for Johnson's crude promises to get the infernal thing 'done'. Brexit has happened. They can now be cast off, and any notion of levelling up will die a gradual death.

    Indeed, the coming recession will provide a fantastic excuse for the Tories to, sorrowfully and with great regret of course, forget the north.

    It might take a few years for it to happen. The Tories might even wring another election victory with Red Wall backing, as the betrayal takes time to be recognised by those who believe most. But happen it will.

    The red wall has been trending gradually but increasingly against Labour since 2005-2010. Brexit was a temporary accelerant but the trend remains. It should have far more marginsls going forward that were previously safe Labour seats.
    Countering that is the Tories showing signs of falling apart in the shires
    Yeah Labour need to pull their thumb out of their arse and reconnect. I think there'll be an opportunity for that, the disillusionment with the Tories will be great, I suspect. Whether they can take it remains to be seen.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 45,034
    HYUFD said:

    It should be noted Tunbridge Wells, where Rishi spoke and I was born and raised, is 46th on the LD target list and has a LD led council. It is very much bluewall.

    I don't there was anything wrong with what he said, there are parts of Tunbridge Wells that are not that well off, Sherwood ward for
    instance. Yes the redwall needs support but there are parts of the country elsewhere that do too.


    It should also be noted that the last 2 general election winners for the Tories, Johnson and Cameron, were both elected by the membership. The last general election winner for Labour, Tony Blair, was elected by Labour members. Starmer was also elected by Labour members and Davey by LD members

    Jo Swinson was elected by the members.

    Jeremy Corbyn was elected by the members.

    Hell, IDS was elected by the members.

    The record of member voting is, at best, patchy.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 101,102
    vik said:

    It is very important to have party memberships elect the leader because it ensures that a leader is selected who is good at appealing to voters, and not just good at deal-making with other politicians.

    In Australia, we had a situation during the previous Labor government where the Deputy PM (Julia Gillard) was elevated to PM through an internal coup in the parliamentary party. Gillard was good at making deals with factional leaders and getting the numbers for a successful leadership challenge, but she was absolutely terrible at understanding voters & appealing to them.

    The Conservative Party system prevents this & ensures that the final two choices have to go out and show their campaigning skills to win the leadership.

    I think if Theresa May had faced a strong challenger, then she might also have failed at the final hurdle and the new leader might have done a lot better at the subsequent election.

    Indeed and even the Australian Labor Party now gives members a vote if they have a contested leadership election
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 34,082
    edited August 5
    alex_ said:

    https://www.news.com.au/world/europe/100000-north-korean-soldiers-could-be-sent-to-bolster-putins-forces-fighting-ukraine/news-story/1126782c8c5e6fe08a8ad2d9fa38dff0



    Are there multiple wars that North Korean soldiers have been engaged in over the last several decades (to gain this 'wealth of experience' that i am unaware of?

    I believe sporadic artillery duels are a feature of the N-S Korean border.
    Lots of MZ, not so much D.
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 10,573
    Dura_Ace said:

    Mordaunt and Badenoch are interesting as potential LotOs after 2024, but their CVs were way too thin to take over as PM now.

    Badenoch has limited appeal outside the alt-right curious (as well as being fucking ugly which matters) and Penny Dreadful is just a fucking charlatan.
    Welcome back, Dura, but may I suggest an early visit to Specsavers if you are once again in the UK.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 101,102
    edited August 5

    HYUFD said:

    It should be noted Tunbridge Wells, where Rishi spoke and I was born and raised, is 46th on the LD target list and has a LD led council. It is very much bluewall.

    I don't there was anything wrong with what he said, there are parts of Tunbridge Wells that are not that well off, Sherwood ward for
    instance. Yes the redwall needs support but there are parts of the country elsewhere that do too.


    It should also be noted that the last 2 general election winners for the Tories, Johnson and Cameron, were both elected by the membership. The last general election winner for Labour, Tony Blair, was elected by Labour members. Starmer was also elected by Labour members and Davey by LD members

    Jo Swinson was elected by the members.

    Jeremy Corbyn was elected by the members.

    Hell, IDS was elected by the members.

    The record of member voting is, at best, patchy.
    William Hague, John Major, Theresa May, Michael Foot were elected solely by MPs. Their record is at least as patchy.

    In 2017 Corbyn deprived the Tories of their majority
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 22,808
    HYUFD said:

    This is also a reason why phone recordings are also normally not allowed at private Tory events. A Truss supporter obviously leaked this

    Interesting though that Sunak isn't denying it or resiling from it.
    He's sent out his minions to double down on it.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 101,102

    HYUFD said:

    It should be noted Tunbridge Wells, where Rishi spoke and I was born and raised, is 46th on the LD target list. It is very much bluewall.

    I don't there was anything wrong with what he said, there are parts of Tunbridge Wells that are not that well off, Sherwood ward for
    instance. Yes the redwall needs support but there are parts of the country elsewhere that do too.


    It should also be noted that the last 2 general election winners for the Tories, Johnson and Cameron, were both elected by the membership. The last general election winner for Labour, Tony Blair, was elected by Labour members. Starmer was also elected by Labour members and Davey by LD members

    What are the odds of that? If both main parties elect their leaders by members, what a surprise that general election winners are elected as leader by members.......
    In 1997 and 2001 Blair was elected by Labour members as part of an electoral college, Major and Hague by only Tory MPs
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 41,397
    Dura_Ace said:

    Mordaunt and Badenoch are interesting as potential LotOs after 2024, but their CVs were way too thin to take over as PM now.

    Badenoch has limited appeal outside the alt-right curious (as well as being fucking ugly which matters) ....
    Not a few Tories appear to have the hots for her, so you're on shaky ground there.
    Are you sure you haven't confused her with the fragrant Suella ?
  • DynamoDynamo Posts: 157
    Will it be a double knockout?

    If the "I can feed the gammonians better than you can - oh no, does GCHQ have a problem?" farce of the Tory leadership election continues much longer, then maybe Boris Johnson will resign on 6 September anyway even if Old Lady hasn't got a new name for us... and my small gamble on Dominic Raab as next PM at long odds will pay out :smiley:
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 9,635
    edited August 5



    What's the mood in Egypt?

    Offended when I said wasn't interested in looking at any of the stupid old shit in their museum.

    I did meet an interesting Saudi guy and fellow Porsche enthusiast on my course. He had spent 8 months in 2014 in Raqqa (Saudi equivalent of going to Ibiza on an 18-30) as an ISIS "fighter" and told me many hair-raising yarns about life in the Islamic State.

    I am now a qualified teacher of Arabic as a foreign language. Probably going to Saudi in the winter for more immersion and riding motorbikes around the Asir mountains with the jihadi.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 9,085
    edited August 5
    What is the alternative to members electing the party leader?

    The normal alternative proposed is to embrace our Parliamentary system and leave the job to MPs alone. This would make a Liberal Democrat leadership hustings somewhat intimate.

    What if we considered an alternative approach. How about a national primary contest that the entire electorate could vote in?

    On the plus side this would be an alternative that involved more democracy, rather than less. It would encourage the candidates to speak to a broader electorate than the small minority who now join political parties. It would counter the tiresome calls for a new PM to call an immediate general election for a personal mandate.

    The MPs would still produce the shortlists of two, which would ideally reduce the chances of an outright crank winning.

    On the negative side, it would be ruinously be expensive to organise, and it would turbocharge the long-term drift towards Presidential politics. But perhaps that's a lost battle.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 9,127

    Politically, it matters little if the Conservatives - under whatever leader - robbed funding from Liverpool or Manchester or any of the seats that elected a Labour MP in 2019. It will matter if they don't offer significant support for Workington or Ashfield or Hartlepool.

    Isn't the Tory funelling of cash to their client voters getting a bit too shameless and embarrassing, even for them?
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 4,187
    edited August 5

    The Red Wall has done their job, from the Tory point of view. They were manipulated to vote for Brexit, and then for Johnson's crude promises to get the infernal thing 'done'. Brexit has happened. They can now be cast off, and any notion of levelling up will die a gradual death.

    Indeed, the coming recession will provide a fantastic excuse for the Tories to, sorrowfully and with great regret of course, forget the north.

    It might take a few years for it to happen. The Tories might even wring another election victory with Red Wall backing, as the betrayal takes time to be recognised by those who believe most. But happen it will.

    The red wall has been trending gradually but increasingly against Labour since 2005-2010. Brexit was a temporary accelerant but the trend remains. It should have far more marginsls going forward that were previously safe Labour seats.
    Countering that is the Tories showing signs of falling apart in the shires
    Yeah Labour need to pull their thumb out of their arse and reconnect. I think there'll be an opportunity for that, the disillusionment with the Tories will be great, I suspect. Whether they can take it remains to be seen.
    I think turnout could be pretty low, theres a block who have deserted labour but who won't go full blue who have been giving ukip then bxp big scores who now have nowhere to go as reform probably won't stand too many candidates (unless they get a big $ injection, and also theres no Farage). Tories may get some late converts (esp if they confect a brexit issue), some back to Labour, i guess many will just stay home 'a plague on all your houses'
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 21,885
    Dynamo said:

    Will it be a double knockout?

    If the "I can feed the gammonians better than you can - oh no, does GCHQ have a problem?" farce of the Tory leadership election continues much longer, then maybe Boris Johnson will resign on 6 September anyway even if Old Lady hasn't got a new name for us... and my small gamble on Dominic Raab as next PM at long odds will pay out :smiley:

    WTAF are you on about?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 41,397
    Ferrari effectively throw in the championship towel.

    Leclerc to take (engine) grid penalties at Spa and Austin

    "We are working on reliability and at the same time managing it, because it will be resolved definitively for next season. Some changes cannot be implemented in a few weeks. However, this does not mean that it will not be managed this season”
    (Binotto)
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 21,885
    Most important question of the day: "Does a dog have any concept of the future?"

    (As discussed at length and inconclusively over too many bottles of wine last night with an old friend who came to stop with us. Our dog declined to get involved tbf.)
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 102,795
    This makes me proud to have voted for Rishi.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 9,635
    Dynamo said:



    If the "I can feed the gammonians better than you can - oh no, does GCHQ have a problem?" farce of the Tory leadership election continues much longer, then maybe Boris Johnson will resign on 6 September anyway even if Old Lady hasn't got a new name for us... and my small gamble on Dominic Raab as next PM at long odds will pay out :smiley:

    Even Moon Rabbit made more sense than this.

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 41,397

    Most important question of the day: "Does a dog have any concept of the future?"

    (As discussed at length and inconclusively over too many bottles of wine last night with an old friend who came to stop with us. Our dog declined to get involved tbf.)

    The immediate future, but little beyond that, probably.
    I can see what might have prompted you to mention it on this particular thread.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 23,402
    Lol...

    https://twitter.com/BBCNewsPR/status/1555483312810082304

    BBC News Press Team
    @BBCNewsPR
    Interview on
    @BBCr4today


    We regret that we did not robustly challenge Martin Tyler on a comment which appeared to link Hillsborough & hooliganism. Martin has since apologised for the comment & clarified that these were separate examples & he did not intend to conflate the two.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 19,803
    The joy of this leadership contest - and some of us were saying this when it was still with the MPs - is that it does massive damage to the Tory Party.

    The selectorate are largely old, southern and selfish. That means the candidates have to propose policies as fucked up as possible to win their votes. Because winning the leadership is the only thought right now - they don't care what it may do to their electoral prospects at the GE.

    So of course Sunak will stand in Royal Toffbridge Welloff and say "I'll take money from the oils to spend on deserving people like you". Because of he doesn't, he loses.

    And of course Labour will throw this around at the election. But some voters are so Stockholmed that they'll likely not only still vote Tory to directly make themselves worse off, they'll attack Labour for supposedly having the very policies they are voting for.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 16,164

    HYUFD said:

    It should be noted Tunbridge Wells, where Rishi spoke and I was born and raised, is 46th on the LD target list and has a LD led council. It is very much bluewall.

    I don't there was anything wrong with what he said, there are parts of Tunbridge Wells that are not that well off, Sherwood ward for
    instance. Yes the redwall needs support but there are parts of the country elsewhere that do too.


    It should also be noted that the last 2 general election winners for the Tories, Johnson and Cameron, were both elected by the membership. The last general election winner for Labour, Tony Blair, was elected by Labour members. Starmer was also elected by Labour members and Davey by LD members

    Jo Swinson was elected by the members.

    Jeremy Corbyn was elected by the members.

    Hell, IDS was elected by the members.

    The record of member voting is, at best, patchy.
    Weirdly that's the same list you'd get if the system was that the party members elected each other's leaders instead of their own.
  • Dynamo said:

    Will it be a double knockout?

    If the "I can feed the gammonians better than you can - oh no, does GCHQ have a problem?" farce of the Tory leadership election continues much longer, then maybe Boris Johnson will resign on 6 September anyway even if Old Lady hasn't got a new name for us... and my small gamble on Dominic Raab as next PM at long odds will pay out :smiley:

    WTAF are you on about?
    It's like our latest Putin apologist has put a text through a political Google Translate to end up with a string of seemingly nonsensical phrases.

    Translation: Will both candidates be eliminated?

    If the "I can pander to the right better than you can - oh no GCHQ has a problem with the voting system" farce continues much longer then maybe Boris will resign anyway even if Sir Graham Brady hasn't a newly elected leader name for us and Dominic Raab could become PM.

    No, not possible.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 14,728

    Most important question of the day: "Does a dog have any concept of the future?"

    (As discussed at length and inconclusively over too many bottles of wine last night with an old friend who came to stop with us. Our dog declined to get involved tbf.)

    Not dogs, but we know squirrels store food for months ahead (even if they often forget where they put it), so clearly other animals not only have a concept of the future but plan for it and moderate current behaviour to create a future benefit.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 34,082
    There's always a twat (or 2 in this case).


  • Most important question of the day: "Does a dog have any concept of the future?"

    (As discussed at length and inconclusively over too many bottles of wine last night with an old friend who came to stop with us. Our dog declined to get involved tbf.)

    Not dogs, but we know squirrels store food for months ahead (even if they often forget where they put it), so clearly other animals not only have a concept of the future but plan for it and moderate current behaviour to create a future benefit.
    Some breeds of dogs bury bones so they can enjoy them in the future so same concept surely?
  • DynamoDynamo Posts: 157
    edited August 5

    What is the alternative to members electing the party leader?

    The normal alternative proposed is to embrace our Parliamentary system and leave the job to MPs alone. This would make a Liberal Democrat leadership hustings somewhat intimate.

    What if we considered an alternative approach. How about a national primary contest that the entire electorate could vote in?

    On the plus side this would be an alternative that involved more democracy, rather than less. It would encourage the candidates to speak to a broader electorate than the small minority who now join political parties. It would counter the tiresome calls for a new PM to call an immediate general election for a personal mandate.

    The MPs would still produce the shortlists of two, which would ideally reduce the chances of an outright crank winning.

    On the negative side, it would be ruinously be expensive to organise, and it would turbocharge the long-term drift towards Presidential politics. But perhaps that's a lost battle.

    Too presidential. It's OK for a PM to be elected by elected politicians, so long as it's done right. When there's a vacancy mid-term, do it like this:

    * make the election procedure statutory, run by the House of Commons
    * only MPs (all of them except the Speaker) to have a vote (compulsory)
    * secret ballots, all votes basically write-ins, and each vote must be for an MP
    * after the first round, each vote must be for an MP who didn't get zero or come last in the previous round

    Rishi Sunak would win now. Dunno who would have won in 2019. Jeremy Hunt? David Davis?

    Game theorists' heads would explode...
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 1,911
    Nigelb said:

    Most important question of the day: "Does a dog have any concept of the future?"

    (As discussed at length and inconclusively over too many bottles of wine last night with an old friend who came to stop with us. Our dog declined to get involved tbf.)

    The immediate future, but little beyond that, probably.
    I can see what might have prompted you to mention it on this particular thread.
    Not sure. Dogs remain attached to their young, and must recognise they grow into dogs like them. I think that requires a concept of the future.

  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 21,885

    Most important question of the day: "Does a dog have any concept of the future?"

    (As discussed at length and inconclusively over too many bottles of wine last night with an old friend who came to stop with us. Our dog declined to get involved tbf.)

    Not dogs, but we know squirrels store food for months ahead (even if they often forget where they put it), so clearly other animals not only have a concept of the future but plan for it and moderate current behaviour to create a future benefit.
    No, I think that's just a built-in instinct that's been genetically selected through survival of the fittest. You're not going to make me believe a squirrel sits there thinking 'right, I better put some nuts by for the winter'. I doubt they even know winter is coming tbh.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 19,405
    O/T culture chat (I've decided that politics and animal welfare aren't really a full life, so I'm catching up on culture vulturing) - I went to the Globe Julius Caesar production last night (the Globe is a real experience which anyone interested in cultural history should try), and it challenged my wokeness by having a female Brutus, a female Cassius and black actors in several parts as prominent Roman politicians (a bit like Bridgerton with its black aristos).

    I was distracted by all of that for a few minutes, and then forgot about it - essentially the play is about human drama, not a historical simulation, and if the actors chosen were the best-suited to the roles, fine. As a performance, I'd just give it a B - good but not amazing. But as an experience including a crowded Globe and the planted actors in the crowd leading chants and shouts it was definitely an A.

    By contrast, I wasn't much taken with Chess which I saw earlier in the week, despite its stellar credentials with Tim Rice and the Abba boys. It's very static, with one stage set for 2 hours, a third of which is the orchestra. It's OK and the Drury Lane theatre is lovely, but overall just a pleasant night out.

    Is there anything else currently which I ought to try now I've signed up to the effete Greater London intelligentsia?
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 8,829
    tlg86 said:

    Lol...

    https://twitter.com/BBCNewsPR/status/1555483312810082304

    BBC News Press Team
    @BBCNewsPR
    Interview on
    @BBCr4today


    We regret that we did not robustly challenge Martin Tyler on a comment which appeared to link Hillsborough & hooliganism. Martin has since apologised for the comment & clarified that these were separate examples & he did not intend to conflate the two.

    Without in any way wishing to suggest Liverpool fans at Hillborough were guilty of anything other than wrong place, wrong time, it is entirely CORRECT to link the hooliganism of football fans 30 years ago with Hillsborough.

    Its pretty simple - one of the root causes of the disaster was the need for barriers at football. Why were they needed? Because an element of football fans behaved like animals repeatedly.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 59,145
    Mr. Divvie, be fair. Nobody except the Chinese Government knew, at that stage, we'd have a pandemic.

    Mr. Biggles, perhaps. Attachment can be purely instinctive, however, and not related to intelligence. The capacity of canines to be aware of the future as a concept beyond the short term (which they definitely are, or training would not work) is interesting to consider.
  • Dynamo said:

    What is the alternative to members electing the party leader?

    The normal alternative proposed is to embrace our Parliamentary system and leave the job to MPs alone. This would make a Liberal Democrat leadership hustings somewhat intimate.

    What if we considered an alternative approach. How about a national primary contest that the entire electorate could vote in?

    On the plus side this would be an alternative that involved more democracy, rather than less. It would encourage the candidates to speak to a broader electorate than the small minority who now join political parties. It would counter the tiresome calls for a new PM to call an immediate general election for a personal mandate.

    The MPs would still produce the shortlists of two, which would ideally reduce the chances of an outright crank winning.

    On the negative side, it would be ruinously be expensive to organise, and it would turbocharge the long-term drift towards Presidential politics. But perhaps that's a lost battle.

    Too presidential. It's OK for a PM to be elected by elected politicians, so long as it's done right. When there's a vacancy mid-term, do it like this:

    * make the election procedure statutory, run by the House of Commons
    * only MPs (all of them except the Speaker) to have a vote (compulsory)
    * secret ballots, all votes basically write-ins, and each vote must be for an MP
    * after the first round, each vote must be for an MP who didn't get zero or come last in the previous round

    Rishi Sunak would win now. Dunno who would have won in 2019. Jeremy Hunt? David Davis?

    Game theorists' heads would explode...
    Terrible system. That's basically how the Speaker gets elected which led to Labour MPs choosing Bercow from the Tory benches.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 1,466

    Most important question of the day: "Does a dog have any concept of the future?"

    (As discussed at length and inconclusively over too many bottles of wine last night with an old friend who came to stop with us. Our dog declined to get involved tbf.)

    Some do, for example read “Has man a future?” By Jack “Bertrand” Russell.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 41,397
    biggles said:

    Nigelb said:

    Most important question of the day: "Does a dog have any concept of the future?"

    (As discussed at length and inconclusively over too many bottles of wine last night with an old friend who came to stop with us. Our dog declined to get involved tbf.)

    The immediate future, but little beyond that, probably.
    I can see what might have prompted you to mention it on this particular thread.
    Not sure. Dogs remain attached to their young, and must recognise they grow into dogs like them. I think that requires a concept of the future.

    That's hardly a logical deduction.
    Hard wired instinct is surely sufficient to keep them attached to their young.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 4,187
    edited August 5
    2 council by elections yesterday, awaiting Shetland which starred 5 indies and no regular party entrants as is often the northern isles way and Dallow in Luton
    Dallow (Luton) council by-election result:

    LAB: 53.6% (-12.9)
    LDEM: 38.8% (+38.8)
    CON: 5.6% (-7.6)
    IND: 2.1% (-18.3)

    Votes cast: 2,774

    Labour HOLD.

    Another impressive LD surge having not stood in 2019 in a fairly safe ward helped by the evicted Labour councillor being disqualified for being a fraudy wrong 'un.
    Tories unable to take advantage and head backwards. The indy was a different indy to 2019 so didnt suddenly become unpopular.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 24,250
    biggles said:

    Nigelb said:

    Most important question of the day: "Does a dog have any concept of the future?"

    (As discussed at length and inconclusively over too many bottles of wine last night with an old friend who came to stop with us. Our dog declined to get involved tbf.)

    The immediate future, but little beyond that, probably.
    I can see what might have prompted you to mention it on this particular thread.
    Not sure. Dogs remain attached to their young, and must recognise they grow into dogs like them. I think that requires a concept of the future.

    How can we ever know?

    I recommend this book. It’s quite eye opening about the smartness of octopi

    https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/28116739

  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 1,911
    edited August 5
    Political parties often forget that most of us are not members, would never want to be, and don’t feel aligned to a party. We therefore don’t “see” constituencies in the same way. We also have all sorts of links to bits of the country we don’t live in, and generally like to think of places being redeveloped.

    In other words, channeling cash purely at your voters can backfire, since they don’t see themselves as “yours” and care about other things and other places.
  • RH1992RH1992 Posts: 712
    edited August 5
    Dynamo said:

    What is the alternative to members electing the party leader?

    The normal alternative proposed is to embrace our Parliamentary system and leave the job to MPs alone. This would make a Liberal Democrat leadership hustings somewhat intimate.

    What if we considered an alternative approach. How about a national primary contest that the entire electorate could vote in?

    On the plus side this would be an alternative that involved more democracy, rather than less. It would encourage the candidates to speak to a broader electorate than the small minority who now join political parties. It would counter the tiresome calls for a new PM to call an immediate general election for a personal mandate.

    The MPs would still produce the shortlists of two, which would ideally reduce the chances of an outright crank winning.

    On the negative side, it would be ruinously be expensive to organise, and it would turbocharge the long-term drift towards Presidential politics. But perhaps that's a lost battle.

    Too presidential. It's OK for a PM to be elected by elected politicians, so long as it's done right. When there's a vacancy mid-term, do it like this:

    * make the election procedure statutory, run by the House of Commons
    * only MPs (all of them except the Speaker) to have a vote (compulsory)
    * secret ballots, all votes basically write-ins, and each vote must be for an MP
    * after the first round, each vote must be for an MP who didn't get zero or come last in the previous round

    Rishi Sunak would win now. Dunno who would have won in 2019. Jeremy Hunt? David Davis?

    Game theorists' heads would explode...
    The governing party (if a majority government) could just coalesce around one candidate using an internal method prior to any HoC ballots.

    If they don't do that they also run the risk of the opposition getting behind a nutter that only a minority of the governing party want. Think Labour, the SNP and the Lib Dems getting behind Braverman for short term governing pain but medium term electoral gain for the opposition.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 24,287
    edited August 5
    Nigelb said:

    Most important question of the day: "Does a dog have any concept of the future?"

    (As discussed at length and inconclusively over too many bottles of wine last night with an old friend who came to stop with us. Our dog declined to get involved tbf.)

    The immediate future, but little beyond that, probably.
    I can see what might have prompted you to mention it on this particular thread.
    The friends' dogs I occasionally take for walkies when I am staying with them have a very definite logical chain thus:

    1. I pick up the leash and get my jacket down.
    2. Therefore walkies in the near future.
    3. Joyful reaction.

    Admittedly not necessarily very abstract, or very far into the future. But saying 'walk' has a similar effect, as does the sign language equivalent if the hound is deaf (one would want to observe numerous instances, of course, in a serious study, with double blind tests):

    https://twitter.com/thepuppiesclub/status/1251911204911681538
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 14,728

    Most important question of the day: "Does a dog have any concept of the future?"

    (As discussed at length and inconclusively over too many bottles of wine last night with an old friend who came to stop with us. Our dog declined to get involved tbf.)

    Not dogs, but we know squirrels store food for months ahead (even if they often forget where they put it), so clearly other animals not only have a concept of the future but plan for it and moderate current behaviour to create a future benefit.
    No, I think that's just a built-in instinct that's been genetically selected through survival of the fittest. You're not going to make me believe a squirrel sits there thinking 'right, I better put some nuts by for the winter'. I doubt they even know winter is coming tbh.
    Eh? That is just reducing other animals brains to instinct and ours to brilliant independent thoughts. We are animals too and share most of our DNA with them.
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 1,911
    Nigelb said:

    biggles said:

    Nigelb said:

    Most important question of the day: "Does a dog have any concept of the future?"

    (As discussed at length and inconclusively over too many bottles of wine last night with an old friend who came to stop with us. Our dog declined to get involved tbf.)

    The immediate future, but little beyond that, probably.
    I can see what might have prompted you to mention it on this particular thread.
    Not sure. Dogs remain attached to their young, and must recognise they grow into dogs like them. I think that requires a concept of the future.

    That's hardly a logical deduction.
    Hard wired instinct is surely sufficient to keep them attached to their young.
    They do more than feed them while they must though, as other animals do. They are pack animals and I think that implies a low level understanding of family and therefore time.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 15,680

    Betfair next prime minister
    1.12 Liz Truss 89%
    8.6 Rishi Sunak 12%

    Next Conservative leader
    1.12 Liz Truss 89%
    8.6 Rishi Sunak 12%

    Rishi continues his slow drift. Remember he was around 11before winning yesterday's debate and 8.4 this morning. How long has Team Truss been sitting on that video?

    Betfair next prime minister
    1.12 Liz Truss 89%
    9 Rishi Sunak 11%

    Next Conservative leader
    1.12 Liz Truss 89%
    9 Rishi Sunak 11%
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 24,287

    There's always a twat (or 2 in this case).


    Is that our own late exorcised TGOHF? I think not; it goes by its own name on Twitter IIRC.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 41,397
    edited August 5
    This is interesting.

    Tesla Powerwalls Create Huge 'Distributed Battery' For Grid Reliability
    Tesla has invited some 25,000 PG&E customers with Powerwalls to join the program.
    https://insideevs.com/news/602480/tesla-powerwall-pge-worlds-largest-distributed-battery/
    ...Through the collaboration, Tesla will participate in PG&E’s Emergency Load Reduction Program (ELRP) pilot by combining residential Powerwalls into a virtual power plant to discharge power back to the California grid during times of high electricity demand. Participating customers will receive $2 for every incremental kilowatt-hour of electricity their Powerwall discharges during an event. They can use the Tesla app to set their backup power needs or to opt out of a particular event, as necessary....

    While not massive in terms of power, imagine ubiquitous EV* usage. Even if only around 20% of vehicles' better capacity was available, it would give you a virtual distributed battery with multiple GWh capacity.

    UK drivers do an average of around 20 miles a day, so there's plenty of headroom.

    (* two way chargers are already being planned for electric vehicles, so the ability to discharge back to the grid will be designed in.)
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 24,287
    Re the thread topic, I don't know if it has been noticed on here that someone has conveniently unearthed a clip of Mr S saying he'd managed to change fuinding in favour of Kent etc. (No idea if this is a fair interpretation or not, myself.)

    https://www.thenational.scot/news/20603278.rishi-sunak-boasts-diverting-cash-deprived-urban-areas-unearthed-video/?ref=ebbn
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 22,808

    2 council by elections yesterday, awaiting Shetland which starred 5 indies and no regular party entrants as is often the northern isles way and Dallow in Luton
    Dallow (Luton) council by-election result:

    LAB: 53.6% (-12.9)
    LDEM: 38.8% (+38.8)
    CON: 5.6% (-7.6)
    IND: 2.1% (-18.3)

    Votes cast: 2,774

    Labour HOLD.

    Another impressive LD surge having not stood in 2019 in a fairly safe ward helped by the evicted Labour councillor being disqualified for being a fraudy wrong 'un.
    Tories unable to take advantage and head backwards. The indy was a different indy to 2019 so didnt suddenly become unpopular.

    The LD's are showing signs of getting back to their pre-coalition appeal.
    That's a necessary, but not sufficient, condition for a change of government.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 55,591
    This worries me, and should worry any Tory who has a vote in the leadership election (to be clear, I'm not a party member). Liz Truss says she supports single-sex spaces, but that trans people can use spaces for the opposite sex. These are mutually incompatible. Which is it, Liz?

    https://twitter.com/hjoycegender/status/1555516309059821574
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 15,680
    Carnyx said:

    Re the thread topic, I don't know if it has been noticed on here that someone has conveniently unearthed a clip of Mr S saying he'd managed to change fuinding in favour of Kent etc. (No idea if this is a fair interpretation or not, myself.)

    https://www.thenational.scot/news/20603278.rishi-sunak-boasts-diverting-cash-deprived-urban-areas-unearthed-video/?ref=ebbn

    That literally is the thread header.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 4,187
    edited August 5
    dixiedean said:

    2 council by elections yesterday, awaiting Shetland which starred 5 indies and no regular party entrants as is often the northern isles way and Dallow in Luton
    Dallow (Luton) council by-election result:

    LAB: 53.6% (-12.9)
    LDEM: 38.8% (+38.8)
    CON: 5.6% (-7.6)
    IND: 2.1% (-18.3)

    Votes cast: 2,774

    Labour HOLD.

    Another impressive LD surge having not stood in 2019 in a fairly safe ward helped by the evicted Labour councillor being disqualified for being a fraudy wrong 'un.
    Tories unable to take advantage and head backwards. The indy was a different indy to 2019 so didnt suddenly become unpopular.

    The LD's are showing signs of getting back to their pre-coalition appeal.
    That's a necessary, but not sufficient, condition for a change of government.
    If they have a good 2023 locals i think we can declare LD local mojo restored, although they are defending a good set of 2019 results tbf
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 71,279
    Carnyx said:

    Re the thread topic, I don't know if it has been noticed on here that someone has conveniently unearthed a clip of Mr S saying he'd managed to change fuinding in favour of Kent etc. (No idea if this is a fair interpretation or not, myself.)

    https://www.thenational.scot/news/20603278.rishi-sunak-boasts-diverting-cash-deprived-urban-areas-unearthed-video/?ref=ebbn

    It's in the thread header..
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 35,150
    I think after this new, err, policy from Rishi he may not even make the Cabinet.

    I still think he'd make for a good health secretary because the NHS needs a bean counter in charge and to cut waste and costs so there's headroom for doing better elsewhere in the service.

    I also think he's the most likely to take an actuarial approach to healthcare rather than the current approach of unlimited negative return investment in life lengthening treatments for very old people. Simply because he seems hard hearted enough to push it and not care about the consequences to his personal reputation (it's already smashed beyond repair IMO).

    As we were talking about yesterday, a whole new discussion around healthcare provision in the UK needs to be had. We're entering a 20-30 year period of exponentially rising healthcare demand from people who are refusing to pay their own way and have the divine belief that only they worked hard so deserve millions spent on their healthcare and care needs while not wanting to pay any additional tax on their incomes or wealth. That means services need to be curtailed because there is no unlimited pot of cash from working age people, the UK just becomes an uncompetitive place to do business as corporate and personal taxes rise to meet this need from that generation to retire at 60 and live to 100 while taking no income hit or taxes on their wealth.

    Rishi, to me, seems like exactly the kind of guy who could blunder into that discussion and make those changes. 2024 looks lost either way given the economic circumstances, a change to healthcare provision for over 85s in terms of life lengthening treatment (even something as technically simple as making a DNR opt-out after 85) would pay very, very good long term dividends for the nation and he'd eventually restore his reputation off the back of it as the man who saved the economy from certain ruin.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 24,287

    Carnyx said:

    Re the thread topic, I don't know if it has been noticed on here that someone has conveniently unearthed a clip of Mr S saying he'd managed to change fuinding in favour of Kent etc. (No idea if this is a fair interpretation or not, myself.)

    https://www.thenational.scot/news/20603278.rishi-sunak-boasts-diverting-cash-deprived-urban-areas-unearthed-video/?ref=ebbn

    That literally is the thread header.
    That's the same one? Thanks. For some reason I'd thought this other one was an old one. Brain fart. Apols.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 30,795

    O/T culture chat (I've decided that politics and animal welfare aren't really a full life, so I'm catching up on culture vulturing) - I went to the Globe Julius Caesar production last night (the Globe is a real experience which anyone interested in cultural history should try), and it challenged my wokeness by having a female Brutus, a female Cassius and black actors in several parts as prominent Roman politicians (a bit like Bridgerton with its black aristos).

    I was distracted by all of that for a few minutes, and then forgot about it - essentially the play is about human drama, not a historical simulation, and if the actors chosen were the best-suited to the roles, fine. As a performance, I'd just give it a B - good but not amazing. But as an experience including a crowded Globe and the planted actors in the crowd leading chants and shouts it was definitely an A.

    By contrast, I wasn't much taken with Chess which I saw earlier in the week, despite its stellar credentials with Tim Rice and the Abba boys. It's very static, with one stage set for 2 hours, a third of which is the orchestra. It's OK and the Drury Lane theatre is lovely, but overall just a pleasant night out.

    Is there anything else currently which I ought to try now I've signed up to the effete Greater London intelligentsia?

    If you like Shakespeare and can get up to Cambridge, then the Shakespeare Festival is brilliant. Watching actors performing Shakespeare in the college gardens. We should be doing 'A Midsumer's Night Dream' at St John's College this weekend (if I can get off my lazy backside and book it...)

    https://cambridgeshakespeare.com/
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 14,728
    biggles said:

    Nigelb said:

    biggles said:

    Nigelb said:

    Most important question of the day: "Does a dog have any concept of the future?"

    (As discussed at length and inconclusively over too many bottles of wine last night with an old friend who came to stop with us. Our dog declined to get involved tbf.)

    The immediate future, but little beyond that, probably.
    I can see what might have prompted you to mention it on this particular thread.
    Not sure. Dogs remain attached to their young, and must recognise they grow into dogs like them. I think that requires a concept of the future.

    That's hardly a logical deduction.
    Hard wired instinct is surely sufficient to keep them attached to their young.
    They do more than feed them while they must though, as other animals do. They are pack animals and I think that implies a low level understanding of family and therefore time.
    To bring this back towards the topic of Tory leadership......Andrea Leadsom would like this post.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 9,635

    Most important question of the day: "Does a dog have any concept of the future?"

    (As discussed at length and inconclusively over too many bottles of wine last night with an old friend who came to stop with us. Our dog declined to get involved tbf.)

    This is a pretty pointless question along the lines of would you rather bang a very pregnant Gina Gershon or Jenny McCarthy after a car accident (© Lt. Glenn Quagmire, USN).

    However I did spend almost a year in a garden shed and the only other living thing with which I would interact in that time was my parents' dog so I have possibly unmatched observational experience of canine behaviour and psychology.

    My conclusion is that they do have a concept of the future in the sense that they are able to anticipate as yet unmanifested but probable events. However, this horizon is very short by human terms and they have almost no concept of the passage of time. Their internal chronology is based around events rather than duration.
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 4,645
    edited August 5

    O/T culture chat (I've decided that politics and animal welfare aren't really a full life, so I'm catching up on culture vulturing) - I went to the Globe Julius Caesar production last night (the Globe is a real experience which anyone interested in cultural history should try), and it challenged my wokeness by having a female Brutus, a female Cassius and black actors in several parts as prominent Roman politicians (a bit like Bridgerton with its black aristos).

    I was distracted by all of that for a few minutes, and then forgot about it - essentially the play is about human drama, not a historical simulation, and if the actors chosen were the best-suited to the roles, fine. As a performance, I'd just give it a B - good but not amazing. But as an experience including a crowded Globe and the planted actors in the crowd leading chants and shouts it was definitely an A.

    By contrast, I wasn't much taken with Chess which I saw earlier in the week, despite its stellar credentials with Tim Rice and the Abba boys. It's very static, with one stage set for 2 hours, a third of which is the orchestra. It's OK and the Drury Lane theatre is lovely, but overall just a pleasant night out.

    Is there anything else currently which I ought to try now I've signed up to the effete Greater London intelligentsia?

    neither are what one would call high brow but quite simply Bat out of Hell is by far the best musical I have ever seen - You dont really have to be a meatloaf fan either but it obviously helps as the lead male and female really do the emotional drama superb that meatloaf used to do.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zH0dygy_dxA


    Also the Only Fools and Horses musical is good and nostaligic



  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 41,397
    Carnyx said:

    Nigelb said:

    Most important question of the day: "Does a dog have any concept of the future?"

    (As discussed at length and inconclusively over too many bottles of wine last night with an old friend who came to stop with us. Our dog declined to get involved tbf.)

    The immediate future, but little beyond that, probably.
    I can see what might have prompted you to mention it on this particular thread.
    The friends' dogs I occasionally take for walkies when I am staying with them have a very definite logical chain thus:

    1. I pick up the leash and get my jacket down.
    2. Therefore walkies in the near future.
    3. Joyful reaction.

    Admittedly not necessarily very abstract, or very far into the future. But saying 'walk' has a similar effect, as does the sign language equivalent if the hound is deaf (one would want to observe numerous instances, of course, in a serious study, with double blind tests):

    https://twitter.com/thepuppiesclub/status/1251911204911681538
    Quite.
    Immediate gratification is a concept dogs and Tory members understand well. The longer term future, perhaps not.
  • MISTYMISTY Posts: 1,209
    edited August 5
    It seems to me that there's a basic flaw in Rishi's argument that is hampering him badly, namely the link he presupposes between inflation and taxation.

    He contends that cutting taxes would stoke inflation, but if that's the case then how come taxation and inflation are both at the highest in decades, and have been for a while? If Sunak is right then that situation should be impossible, inflation should be falling.

    It should also be true that during periods of low taxation, inflation should be higher, when that is also not necessarily true.

    It's obvious that the link Sunak is claiming does not exist, or at least not in the way Sunak claims it does, and its just a line he's been fed by his mates at HM Treasury.
This discussion has been closed.